WEBVTT

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Another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism and or The Virtual Couch.

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If you end up watching this on YouTube, you will see

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basically a patchwork quilt of video because I came back on after editing this

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entire episode and re-recorded so that I can put in the introduction that we're

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running this on The Virtual Couch as well as Waking Up to Narcissism because

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I cannot tell you how much I think that you're going to enjoy today's episode.

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Now, with that said, watch as we now smoothly transition over into the regular

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opening that I had recorded specifically for the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast.

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But if you are listening to this on the virtual couch, you are in the right place.

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Sit back and enjoy the show. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage

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and family therapist, host of the virtual couch podcast as well.

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And thank you as always to Riley Hope for her intro, the theme song, Not My Job.

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Please go find Riley and her music wherever you stream your music.

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I'm really excited today. That is a line. That's a line that I say often.

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I can't actually think of a time where I said, hey, you know what,

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folks? Today, this one's kind of a dud.

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To buckle up. Not all the balls are strikes, but I really am. I'm excited.

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I'm excited to share this episode with you because recently I had the chance

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to sit down with my friend and fellow therapist, Angela DeHoyos on her podcast

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called Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality.

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We talked about validation and we ended up having one of those conversations that felt very dense.

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I don't like going back and listening to my own podcasts.

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And I was on a walk a couple of nights ago.

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And I thought, okay, I want to hear how she does the intro. And then I listened

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to the whole episode. We cover so much ground.

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There's an episode on Frank Kate Anthony's Divorce Survival Guide podcast,

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where we go into so much detail about the concepts around differentiation,

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especially in an unhealthy relationship, that I often refer to that one when

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I am talking about really deep diving into differentiation.

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And I had the same feeling talking about validation and finding who you are,

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your sense of self, as I listen to this episode, I want to encourage you to

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go find the podcast and follow it and listen to all of Angela's work because

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she's a really good therapist.

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I think she's found exactly what she loves doing.

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And Angela also sent me the audio file because back in the day,

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I used to post some of the interviews where I went out on somebody else's podcast

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to hopefully help my listeners connect with other podcasts that I think that they may enjoy.

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I've got the link in the show notes. So we talked about validation and we talked

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about what it is and what it isn't and why so many of us are still walking around

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just starving for it without even realizing how many things fit in this validation bucket.

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And before we get to today's episode, let me own up to the fact that I am about

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to throw you a pitch, a sales pitch.

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So while my business manager would not like how I'm about to do this pitch,

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I am going to let you know that you are welcome to hit that forward 30 seconds

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button. I don't know, four or five, six times if you want to skip this or hear me out.

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So I want to talk really briefly about a reboot of my Magnetic Marriage course.

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It is coming soon to an internet near you.

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And if you happen to listen to both the virtual couch and waking up to narcissism,

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they attract different audiences.

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And so then that leads to different emails, different conversations,

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and different tones in the episodes.

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The emails from the virtual couch are often from listeners who are saying things

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like, we've grown apart, we don't communicate anymore, but we both are willing to work on it.

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And those are very real struggles. But if you're a long time waking up to narcissism

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listener, you know that these emails that I get are a little bit different because

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they come from people who aren't just disconnected.

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Often there's an individual in the relationship that is destabilized and they

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are really not understanding what is happening at all.

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And they're definitely convinced that they're the problem.

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And these are the people that feel very alone in their relationships.

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People have been told so often that they're too sensitive, that they've remembered everything wrong.

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And so they've started doubting their own perception. These are people whose

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nervous systems won't settle down around their partner, even when nothing obvious is happening.

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So that's a very different starting place than, hey, we're both just kind of not sure what to do.

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I want to honor the difference because now as I talk about a marriage course,

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I want to be really clear about what my magnetic marriage course is and what

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it isn't. It's not a cure for narcissism.

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I'm not promising a secret formula that will finally give your partner the aha

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moment. And I do see that messaging out there from some people that are creating a lot of content.

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And I think that often leads to more confusion and damage and self-blame because

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it's not going to work that way. There is no cure.

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I'm not saying that there's no hope. That's probably something for a different

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episode. But what I do believe is in the power of a solid framework.

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Sometimes I think we understand ourselves better when we have something grounded

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to interact with a lens, a mirror, a structure that helps us see what's actually happening.

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And then who we are inside of it.

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That's more of what my Magnetic Marriage course is designed to be.

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In it, I share what I've learned from more than 20 years working with couples.

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And in it, we explore how and why we choose our partners, this anxious avoidance

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cycle that keeps so many couples stuck.

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We talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation, which will give you

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a stable place to return when everything in your reality feels pretty slippery.

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I cover losing strategies and circular arguments, and I go really deep into

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Schnarch's four points of balance of differentiation or learning how to hold

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on to yourself in a relationship without attacking or collapsing or withdrawing.

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Will it fix everything? No. Can it help an individual in a challenging relationship? Yes.

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Am I going to continue to interview myself? No. No, I'm not.

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But the course may help you see more clearly. It may give language to what you've

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been feeling, and it may help you determine what you need, whether that is a

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healthier path forward together or the clarity to make a different decision.

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So the next round isn't open yet, but the wait list is. So go to TonyOverBay.com

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slash magnetic and sign up today, and I will buzz through this quickly.

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I would greatly appreciate it if you follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch

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or TikTok at virtualcouch. And let me do something very ironic because we're

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going to talk today about validation. And I'm sure at some point I'm going to

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talk about not needing validation any longer once you know who you are.

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And while I also am claiming to know who I am, don't get me wrong.

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Validation still feels really good, especially when you do feel seen and understood,

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especially if it's from somebody that you care about.

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And because I'm trying not to say but in the new year, and I'm going to ask for a favor.

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If you haven't ever left a review for Waking Up the Narcissism and or the Virtual

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Couch podcast and you genuinely enjoy the content.

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It would do this old man good if you would take the time to rate and review the podcast.

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There's a pretty funny thing that happens. It's almost like the opposite of

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if you've ever heard of Gottman's concepts of the ratio of positive to negative comments.

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It needs to be something like five positives to every one negative.

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In the world of ratings and reviews, all it takes is one negative review to

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undo very many positive reviews.

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And the negative reviews for waking up to narcissism in particular,

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it's usually all or nothing, which is kind of ironic because that is immature.

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And it is somewhat narcissistic in that it's either people really connect with

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it or people absolutely say this is ridiculous and dumb.

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Because I do think, and I may sound immature here, but a lot of those reviews

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show the emotional immaturity of the reviewer.

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Yet the review process itself does not care.

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So I could have hundreds of five-star reviews and then one person who is probably

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told they're the narcissist or they caught their spouse listening to Waking

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Up to Narcissism. Those are the people who are typically motivated to go leave

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a review, and then they often sound like this. These are some real ones.

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He's dumb. One star. All he cares about is money.

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One star. I listened for five minutes. I couldn't understand a word he was saying,

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which in my book is actually a positive review, yet they only gave me one star.

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So I really would appreciate it if you took a second rated and reviewed the

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podcast. So back to today's episode.

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So there's a moment in this interview with Angela where we talk about something

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that I see, I would say most every day in my office, people come into therapy

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and very understandably so they want me to tell them what to do.

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They want clarity. They want direction.

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They want certainty. They want somebody to say, here's what you need to do.

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You're paying me the big bucks. Here's the right answer.

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And here's who's right. And here's who's wrong. And here's how you fix this.

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And here's what you say. and by the way, yes, you are absolutely okay.

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And I genuinely understand that desire and by the way, you are okay because

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it would be so much easier if somebody could just come in and hand you a blueprint for your life.

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Here's who you are, here's what you like, here's what you should tolerate,

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here's what you shouldn't and here's how to make your partner finally act differently.

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But that is not therapy, it's actually more like parenting.

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And even then, it's not really healthy parenting because a grounded.

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Differentiated, securely attached parent understands something that emotionally

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immature parents often don't.

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That my child's emotions are not a referendum of my worth as a parent.

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So when a child comes home and says, hey, hey, dad, I didn't make the team,

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a grounded parent may feel sad for their child, but they don't collapse into

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shame or defensiveness.

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They may say things like, you seem really sad, or tell me what that was like, or that must hurt.

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They make space. They don't rush to fix it or minimize it or turn it into a

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commentary about their own competence as a parent.

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The old Uncle Rico moment. Oh man, I never got cut from a team.

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And as a matter of fact, toss me that football champ. I can throw it over that mountain.

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An emotionally immature parent, on the other hand, might respond with something

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like, man, I thought you tried your best. Or, well, that coach clearly doesn't know talent.

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Or even, I can't believe this. After all the time and effort that we put into

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this, do you know how much I sacrificed to play catch with you, champ?

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So what just happened there is a subtle thing, but it's really powerful that

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the child's disappointment gets swallowed up by the parent's insecurity.

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That also happens to be projection. Projection is when I can't tolerate my own

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uncomfortable feelings like inadequacy or embarrassment or rejection.

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So then I unconsciously assign them over onto you.

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So instead of sitting with a thought of, man, I'm noticing that this makes me

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feel like I failed for some reason, the parent pushes that discomfort outward

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and it becomes, you didn't try hard enough.

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Or it's sometimes I hear the versions where somebody says that the parent has

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told them, man, you really made me look bad. You embarrassed me.

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So that same thing will show up when the teenager says, hey,

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I don't necessarily still believe the same things that you believe anymore to a parent.

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Now, a differentiated parent will still feel sad.

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They might even feel fear and even grief, but they regulate themselves first.

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They say, okay, hey, help me understand what you're thinking.

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I'm so proud of you for coming to me

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with this. That must have been really difficult. Tell me more about that.

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An emotionally immature parent might say, after everything that we've taught

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you, and now this is what you're doing?

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Or, you know, you're breaking your mom's heart if you break away from our faith

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tradition or if you really do believe these things.

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Because the child's independence feels like a threat to that parent or that

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family, that family system's identity. Again, projection.

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The parent's anxiety gets placed onto the child. And now the child isn't just

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navigating their own development as a human, but they're managing the parent's emotional stability.

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So if you grow up in a home like that, you probably learned something really specific.

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You learned that your job was

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to regulate other people and you became hyper-tuned. You became very kind.

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You became very careful. You became good at reading a room.

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The highly sensitive person concept, HSP.

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And that skill set helped you survive. It was an adaptive way to live that is

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maladaptive now as an adult. But you survived.

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It got you here. Thank you, inner child.

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But it's probably also made you really vulnerable to partnering later in life

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with somebody who also needs you to regulate them. It's the familiar.

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This is where the concept of being pathologically kind, I think, becomes so important.

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And kindness is beautiful. Don't get me wrong. It's one of the best human traits.

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But when it becomes pathological, when it becomes to your detriment,

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then that's where it's a challenge, a problem.

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When your empathy, when your willingness to self-reflect, when your sensitivity

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then become the very tools that somebody else uses to convince you that everything's your fault.

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Many of the people who find themselves in long-term relationships with emotionally

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immature partners are the ones that did grow up in homes and they were wired

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for hypervigilance. where love felt conditional and then connection would disappear without warning.

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So when their adult partner says you're too much or you're too sensitive or

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you're not supportive enough, they don't immediately reject that message.

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They internalize it because if it's their fault, then maybe they can fix it.

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It's really fascinating because admittedly, I start to recognize that truly

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is a lot of the stories that I'm hearing more behind why a therapist becomes a therapist.

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Now, not me. I was the special flower. I did it just because I like people.

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No, it's because of exactly what I just shared.

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That if you go through life assuming, well, everything must be my fault,

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but if I work hard enough, I can fix it.

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If I can learn enough concepts and then share those with the people around me,

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then they'll finally understand that I am of worth and value,

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and that will make our relationships better.

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And that is a pretty adorable thought for so many people.

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Because if you're doing it so that, then people will like you.

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While that might be the push you need, ultimately, you need to do it so that you like yourself.

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But if I can make everything my fault, then again, I can fix it.

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And that feels probably safer than accepting the far more destabilizing possibility

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that But the person that you chose, the person that you really want to grow

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old with may not reciprocate what you are hoping for in the relationship.

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And sometimes I'm working with couples where we start talking about a concept

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of capacity, where you may then recognize because of their own childhood wounding,

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trauma, abandonment issues, that they may not be capable of the kind of emotional maturity,

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that you now recognize you really want in the relationship.

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The more that I sit with this dynamic, the more I'm beginning to see it as its own form of betrayal.

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And I've thought about this for, it's been a couple of years,

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and I don't think I've recorded anything about it because I know betrayal trauma is a thing.

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I've been trained in betrayal trauma by a psychologist who is very well known in the field.

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And betrayal trauma is often associated with infidelity. But I think that the

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concepts can be so much more.

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I think it can often be about the slow erosion that happens when you repeatedly

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go to the person who is supposed to be your safe place, your co-regulator, your partner in growth.

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And they continually tell you that the The way that you think,

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the way that you feel, the way that you exist is wrong.

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And then often they don't do anything about it.

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You do. And when you come back to the relationship and say, okay,

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I've worked on the thing that you have told me that I am, and then they have

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another thing, and then they have another thing.

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That's not their role. Their role isn't to define you. It isn't to parent you.

00:15:27.428 --> 00:15:31.408
It isn't to determine whether your inner world is valid. When you finally walk

00:15:31.408 --> 00:15:36.068
into therapy after years of trying harder, being kinder, being more understanding.

00:15:36.388 --> 00:15:40.368
Reading more books, listening to more podcasts, trying to figure out and understand

00:15:40.368 --> 00:15:44.048
what is wrong with me that's making the relationship not connected,

00:15:44.328 --> 00:15:47.508
you often don't come in and say, hey, help me discover myself.

00:15:47.548 --> 00:15:49.888
You come in saying, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.

00:15:50.008 --> 00:15:55.008
And that's where therapy can feel almost infuriating at first because I don't

00:15:55.008 --> 00:15:59.348
want to tell you who you are and I won't tell you what you should do because

00:15:59.348 --> 00:16:01.468
nobody likes to be shut on. Here's the big part of this.

00:16:01.648 --> 00:16:07.408
My job is not to replace your partner who replaced your parent as the new authority over your identity.

00:16:07.508 --> 00:16:12.068
My job is to help you build a solid sense of self. So you don't need to outsource

00:16:12.068 --> 00:16:17.548
your worth to someone else who is not looking at it with your best interest in mind.

00:16:17.688 --> 00:16:21.408
So in this conversation with Angela, we go all the way back to the origin of

00:16:21.408 --> 00:16:25.408
validation, literally to the moment of exiting the womb and learning that we

00:16:25.408 --> 00:16:27.008
exist through interactions with other people.

00:16:27.108 --> 00:16:30.248
We talk about co-regulation and a lot about emotional immaturity.

00:16:30.408 --> 00:16:34.308
And we unpack the difference between validation and agreement and how you can

00:16:34.308 --> 00:16:38.548
acknowledge and consider someone else's experience without unfolding your own sense of self.

00:16:38.688 --> 00:16:42.028
We even explore a spiritual lens. And that's not something I get to do very often.

00:16:42.048 --> 00:16:47.968
And we look at the idea of a differentiated, grounded, loving parental figure in God, in your creator,

00:16:48.188 --> 00:16:51.528
in your higher power, who doesn't fluctuate in approval based on your performance,

00:16:51.528 --> 00:16:56.868
which is so meaningful for those of you who have discovered that often a bonus

00:16:56.868 --> 00:17:00.188
or free faith crisis or faith deconstruction comes with.

00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:05.199
The awareness that your relationship isn't what you've always hoped it would

00:17:05.199 --> 00:17:07.599
be. So if you have spent years asking, am I okay?

00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:10.619
If you've been trying to decode somebody else's moods in order for you to feel

00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:15.239
safe, or if you are chasing validation from somebody who just can't seem to

00:17:15.239 --> 00:17:18.399
hold it steadily, then I really think you're going to get a lot from this episode.

00:17:18.699 --> 00:17:22.079
And as you listen, what is what that brings up for you?

00:17:22.419 --> 00:17:26.539
Notice whether it feels like, and just seems like Angela and Tony just validating me.

00:17:26.659 --> 00:17:29.079
But I want you to notice whether you can begin to practice that quiet,

00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.699
grounded internal voice that says, you know what? Maybe I am okay.

00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.479
I'm not as crazy as I think I am or that I've been told that I am.

00:17:38.139 --> 00:17:42.359
I do exist. I matter. My experience is real. And maybe I don't need somebody

00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.479
else's approval in order for that to be true.

00:17:44.639 --> 00:17:47.959
I think you're really going to enjoy this interview where I went on Angela's podcast.

00:17:48.179 --> 00:17:50.659
Again, it's called Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality.

00:17:50.719 --> 00:17:52.519
I'll include a link to her podcast in the show notes.

00:17:52.939 --> 00:17:57.499
Please go subscribe to Angela's podcast as well, wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:17:57.859 --> 00:17:59.279
Okay, let's get to this episode.

00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:09.859
Well, I am more than excited. The fact that Tony Overbay has said yes to being

00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:12.659
interviewed on my little teeny podcast.

00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:18.179
I want to introduce you to Tony. Tony is a marriage and family therapist,

00:18:18.179 --> 00:18:21.099
and he was in California, and he's also in Arizona.

00:18:21.379 --> 00:18:25.239
I found Tony several years because you've gone on Jodi Moore's podcast.

00:18:26.138 --> 00:18:30.338
And she interviewed you. You talked to her about some things that are pretty important.

00:18:30.618 --> 00:18:33.438
And Tony specializes in a few things that I've really admired.

00:18:33.678 --> 00:18:38.078
A couple's therapy modality from Sue Johnson called Emotionally Focused Therapy.

00:18:38.338 --> 00:18:42.258
He also has really great parenting modality.

00:18:42.518 --> 00:18:48.378
And one of the things that he's most known for is how he views narcissism in the world.

00:18:48.658 --> 00:18:53.778
Not as this scary, you must walk away from anybody who has this,

00:18:53.778 --> 00:18:58.558
to introducing the idea that this is more about emotional immaturity.

00:18:59.138 --> 00:19:01.558
People that just didn't get good models growing up.

00:19:01.918 --> 00:19:07.138
And today, as we go on our ABCs, he's going to talk to us about validation,

00:19:07.138 --> 00:19:11.318
which is something that encompasses all of these types of relationships.

00:19:11.518 --> 00:19:15.738
I am grateful. I feel very seen right now because, yeah, narcissism, it's a big word.

00:19:15.918 --> 00:19:18.998
And I've got the two podcasts, Virtual Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism.

00:19:18.998 --> 00:19:23.658
And then the whole point of the waking up to narcissism is I knew fairly early

00:19:23.658 --> 00:19:28.738
going in that I wanted to change the conversation because only a small percentage

00:19:28.738 --> 00:19:30.818
of people would be diagnosed narcissists.

00:19:30.938 --> 00:19:33.838
But then we throw it around like it's half or more of the population.

00:19:34.238 --> 00:19:37.978
But then if you reframe it of we're all emotionally immature till we're not

00:19:37.978 --> 00:19:40.178
and we don't know what we don't know and all those wonderful things,

00:19:40.618 --> 00:19:43.778
people are a little more willing to listen.

00:19:43.958 --> 00:19:47.218
If you tell somebody, hey, you're a narcissist, then that is that never goes

00:19:47.218 --> 00:19:50.218
well. And I don't use all or nothing statements very often, but that one doesn't.

00:19:50.338 --> 00:19:53.158
But if you if we talk about our immaturity, you might get a well,

00:19:53.238 --> 00:19:56.058
you are, too, which is a pretty immature response. But then we can at least

00:19:56.058 --> 00:19:57.398
start talking about it, hopefully.

00:19:57.938 --> 00:20:02.638
Yes, for sure. Based on what I have shared, is there anything on your mind that

00:20:02.638 --> 00:20:04.218
you're like, I've got to talk about today?

00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.940
There's a lot. And it's funny, I love that you're asking me that because I do

00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:13.720
find that I get on something shiny and new and it becomes what I'm viewing everything through.

00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:18.380
And that has been all of these things from emotional maturity and the ways that

00:20:18.380 --> 00:20:22.100
the things we do now were adaptive in childhood and they become maladaptive

00:20:22.100 --> 00:20:26.220
as an adult or, you know, emotional maturity as what you were saying in the

00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:28.200
introduction of how we saw things modeled.

00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:32.440
If our parents didn't model taking ownership or accountability of something

00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:34.420
and that nothing was their fault,

00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:39.120
then it's hard to blame the kid coming out of a relationship or a situation

00:20:39.120 --> 00:20:44.400
like that where he also says, well, I mean, you didn't say that or I didn't do that.

00:20:44.860 --> 00:20:48.720
But I'm currently obsessed with this concept of co-regulation.

00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.940
And it's the way that we react, how our emotions are talking to each other.

00:20:54.340 --> 00:21:02.080
And the most basic example of this is when a newborn is crying and a mom holds it close to her.

00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:05.760
And what she's saying is, hey, you don't know how to regulate your own emotions.

00:21:05.760 --> 00:21:08.080
So let me let you borrow my central nervous system.

00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.200
And then when you calm down, we are co-regulating.

00:21:11.380 --> 00:21:15.260
And that is a beautiful version of it. And in theory, we would then be able

00:21:15.260 --> 00:21:18.480
to healthily co-regulate with our partners.

00:21:18.600 --> 00:21:22.080
So if one person's really feeling amped up and the other one's nice and grounded

00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:25.380
and calm, then it would then calm that person down as well.

00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:28.820
And Brene Brown has some really cool concepts around this. She talked about numbers.

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:32.080
Maybe I come in and I tell my wife, hey, I'm firing at an 80 today.

00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:36.440
So if she says I'm firing at a 10, well, I've got you. But if I come in and

00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.280
say I'm at a 30 and she says I'm at a 20, maybe we shouldn't have these emotionally

00:21:40.280 --> 00:21:43.060
charged conversations or potentially emotionally charged conversations.

00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:46.200
I'm obsessed with the concept of co-regulating and I think it fits in a little

00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.480
bit with the validation concept.

00:21:48.149 --> 00:21:51.989
I think it does really well. Some of the things that I discovered early on with

00:21:51.989 --> 00:21:53.889
my emotional immaturity was boundaries.

00:21:54.189 --> 00:21:59.209
When you read the boundaries book, it talks about how we're responsible to others, but not for them.

00:21:59.409 --> 00:22:03.169
And one of the things it talks about is that we're not responsible for other people's emotions.

00:22:03.829 --> 00:22:07.549
Now, on my podcast, it's all about finding balance.

00:22:08.149 --> 00:22:11.429
So we could go into a situation and say, well, I can do whatever I want and

00:22:11.429 --> 00:22:12.829
you're responsible for your emotion.

00:22:13.169 --> 00:22:17.449
But what you're talking about is that we do have a lot of effect on each other.

00:22:17.909 --> 00:22:21.329
Absolutely. And I love that you brought it up that way because co-regulation

00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:25.409
speaks to, it's this work by a guy named Dan Siegel and it talks about the familiar.

00:22:25.769 --> 00:22:30.049
So if I grew up in a home where there was a lot of chaos and where I never knew

00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:33.089
which version of my mom or my dad I was going to get, and I'm going to be a

00:22:33.089 --> 00:22:36.669
little more wired for hypervigilance, I'm going to understand that love or validation

00:22:36.669 --> 00:22:40.329
can disappear at any moment. And if it did, it's probably my fault.

00:22:40.549 --> 00:22:43.789
I mean, this is the message I'm getting as a kid because the parent isn't taking

00:22:43.789 --> 00:22:48.289
ownership of things, then I become wired for this hypervigilance.

00:22:48.549 --> 00:22:51.709
And I'm going to think that is what a relationship looks like.

00:22:51.829 --> 00:22:56.069
So if I am going out into the world as an adolescent or dating,

00:22:56.329 --> 00:23:00.749
and there's somebody that is incredibly grounded, it might seem foreign to me

00:23:00.749 --> 00:23:02.589
because they don't have enough.

00:23:03.192 --> 00:23:06.452
Excitement is what we call it. Reactivity and drama.

00:23:06.852 --> 00:23:10.252
Not of drama and chaos. To us, it feels familiar.

00:23:10.632 --> 00:23:13.952
And so that's what a relationship feels like. And our emotions travel,

00:23:13.992 --> 00:23:16.652
I believe, two to two and a half times faster than our logic.

00:23:16.812 --> 00:23:18.272
So we're actually reacting to things.

00:23:18.452 --> 00:23:21.572
And a lot of times then the logical brain kicks in and tries to make sense of

00:23:21.572 --> 00:23:26.092
it. We don't even recognize that we're reacting to that person's reactions.

00:23:26.272 --> 00:23:30.372
And then they're reacting to my reaction. And we're going to fill in some words

00:23:30.372 --> 00:23:34.752
at some point because that's what we do. and try to then make big meaning of

00:23:34.752 --> 00:23:37.672
these words when really it's our central nervous systems that are arguing with each other.

00:23:38.092 --> 00:23:42.032
Okay, so it's like bypassing stuff that we don't really know how to articulate

00:23:42.032 --> 00:23:45.892
anyways, getting to something deeper and how do we do that?

00:23:46.152 --> 00:23:49.392
And I just love going deeper and deeper and deeper because I'll give you an

00:23:49.392 --> 00:23:51.032
example from the emotionally immature world.

00:23:51.372 --> 00:23:54.152
There's one of my favorites and it's already come up today in a couple of sessions.

00:23:54.492 --> 00:23:57.992
I call it emotional reasoning. If I think it or if I feel it, it must be true.

00:23:58.332 --> 00:24:02.272
The classic example that came up today was a wife and it can be either wife

00:24:02.272 --> 00:24:04.632
or husband whoever starts this wonderful concept.

00:24:05.032 --> 00:24:06.992
But if she just said, yeah, I just kind of feel like you're mad at me.

00:24:07.632 --> 00:24:11.852
So then if I think it, it's true. So therefore you are mad at me to her husband.

00:24:11.992 --> 00:24:14.152
And the husband happens to be a people pleaser.

00:24:14.452 --> 00:24:16.512
So then he's like, oh man, oh, I'm so sorry.

00:24:16.852 --> 00:24:20.212
Even though he's kind of trying to feel, and you can see his awkwardness now,

00:24:20.392 --> 00:24:24.412
but whereas, I mean, I don't think I'm mad at you, but I don't want to tell you that you're wrong.

00:24:24.672 --> 00:24:27.952
So then he's, I'm so sorry. Let me, let me try to do better,

00:24:27.972 --> 00:24:29.492
but he doesn't even know what he's doing.

00:24:29.672 --> 00:24:33.832
And so when you slow that one down, she doesn't like the way something feels.

00:24:34.272 --> 00:24:37.492
And so what she's seen model is if I think it or I feel it, it's true.

00:24:37.692 --> 00:24:41.252
And now I need you to make me feel better, even though I don't even exactly

00:24:41.252 --> 00:24:45.292
know what I need. And you certainly don't know what I'm talking about. But now it's on you.

00:24:46.070 --> 00:24:49.530
And you can see that there's so many layers there, but it is the dance.

00:24:49.710 --> 00:24:51.550
And so to this couple, it's familiar.

00:24:51.830 --> 00:24:54.270
And so then they start talking. I'm trying to get them to use my beloved four

00:24:54.270 --> 00:24:55.510
pillars of a connected conversation.

00:24:55.850 --> 00:24:59.250
And eventually, they're not even really hearing the words I say,

00:24:59.270 --> 00:25:03.530
but then he says some things and it sounds like the right things to say.

00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:08.290
So she tells him she appreciates that. He feels great. And so they feel better.

00:25:09.053 --> 00:25:12.113
If I ask them 10 minutes later what they just talked about, nothing.

00:25:12.333 --> 00:25:15.073
They won't know. So it's just like this emotional co-regulation.

00:25:15.333 --> 00:25:18.093
So really what we're just trying to circle around today is validation.

00:25:18.553 --> 00:25:22.373
I've had some therapists that I've listened to that almost talk about validation,

00:25:22.373 --> 00:25:27.313
like it's an unnecessary or the fact that we want it as a dependence and the

00:25:27.313 --> 00:25:32.273
validation feels great, but it's not what we really should be looking for.

00:25:32.413 --> 00:25:38.033
And I've really come to not enjoy that idea because I think validation is very

00:25:38.033 --> 00:25:39.353
important the way I understand it.

00:25:39.433 --> 00:25:42.793
So I'd love to hear your opinions about what is validation.

00:25:43.613 --> 00:25:46.133
Well, I'm going to go all the way back to the exit of the womb.

00:25:46.313 --> 00:25:47.493
I think that's a good place to start.

00:25:47.753 --> 00:25:52.853
So a child exits and then we don't even know that we exist until we interact

00:25:52.853 --> 00:25:55.433
with another human. We don't even know we're a thing.

00:25:55.633 --> 00:26:00.113
It's in our interactions as a baby that the way I interact with the world is

00:26:00.113 --> 00:26:01.073
going to help me survive.

00:26:01.293 --> 00:26:05.333
And so for a baby, all they have to do is cry and then they'll get fed and they'll

00:26:05.333 --> 00:26:07.193
get held. They'll get their diaper changed.

00:26:07.673 --> 00:26:12.573
And thank goodness, babies are pretty cute. And so they are validated for the

00:26:12.573 --> 00:26:14.893
things that they're expressing, the things that they need.

00:26:15.013 --> 00:26:20.173
That's why you're saying that they're getting responded to in a way that lets them know they exist.

00:26:20.493 --> 00:26:23.713
Yeah, exactly. Yes. Oh, I need to carry you along with me. People noticing and responding.

00:26:24.153 --> 00:26:27.173
You can be the person that makes sense. I'll say a bunch of words and then I'll

00:26:27.173 --> 00:26:31.113
say, Angela, tell them what I said because I know I can get pretty excited about this.

00:26:31.233 --> 00:26:34.393
So then at that point, the kid gets a little older And they've learned.

00:26:34.533 --> 00:26:37.793
And the reason I like starting all the way back exiting the womb is because

00:26:37.793 --> 00:26:41.833
it's built in to need people to know I exist.

00:26:42.113 --> 00:26:46.133
And how do I get them to know I exist? By doing or saying things,

00:26:46.293 --> 00:26:47.693
by the way that I show up in the world.

00:26:48.033 --> 00:26:52.813
And so I think we can start introducing the concepts of I need to be validated that I exist.

00:26:53.273 --> 00:26:56.933
Is this why when you get like the cold shoulder or the silent treatment,

00:26:56.933 --> 00:26:59.273
it is so painful? I think so.

00:26:59.453 --> 00:27:02.513
I really do. Because all of a sudden, wait, do I not exist?

00:27:02.773 --> 00:27:05.653
If I don't get anybody interacting with me, then do I disappear?

00:27:06.469 --> 00:27:10.209
And I know that sounds like some magical thinking. But again,

00:27:10.289 --> 00:27:12.469
if you're a kid, you're just existing in the world.

00:27:12.669 --> 00:27:17.529
And so now you get a little older and you say, I would like some dessert before

00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:19.729
dinner. And then the parent says no.

00:27:19.949 --> 00:27:23.469
And all of a sudden, wait a minute, I asked for something and I didn't get it.

00:27:23.469 --> 00:27:28.549
So then how do I get this to happen? So now I'm going to need to either go really

00:27:28.549 --> 00:27:30.209
be really sad, get really angry,

00:27:30.489 --> 00:27:33.909
push buttons, whatever, because I need to get the thing that I want.

00:27:34.089 --> 00:27:36.829
Because if I don't, then I may not exist.

00:27:37.049 --> 00:27:40.349
I may not live. Sad anger is what used to work as a baby.

00:27:40.849 --> 00:27:43.849
Yeah. So you're trying it again. Well, it's funny you say that as a baby,

00:27:43.949 --> 00:27:46.929
but I always like giving the example of if anybody's taking their kid out in

00:27:46.929 --> 00:27:48.749
public and kid wants toy.

00:27:48.969 --> 00:27:52.569
It's so cliched, but kid wants toy. I say, not now, bud. And then they get really

00:27:52.569 --> 00:27:55.869
angry and then they throw a fit and I say no. And then eventually,

00:27:56.089 --> 00:27:59.309
what do I do to get rid of my own discomfort and to calm them down?

00:27:59.509 --> 00:28:03.069
As then I say, okay, just this one time, but I'm not doing this again.

00:28:03.409 --> 00:28:06.249
And then I feel like I just said the right things. And then they get the toy.

00:28:06.449 --> 00:28:09.149
They don't care at all about the thing I just said.

00:28:09.389 --> 00:28:13.109
They just know, oh, so if I get really big with my emotions,

00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:16.929
then I get the thing I want. Watching what you say, but watching what you do.

00:28:17.209 --> 00:28:20.589
Exactly, right? So then they're learning that this is like the emotions behind that.

00:28:20.929 --> 00:28:23.949
Again, it doesn't even matter. Now they we co-regulated wasn't very healthy,

00:28:23.949 --> 00:28:28.669
but we did. And they just learned that, OK, man, I got to go pretty big to get the things I need.

00:28:28.969 --> 00:28:33.309
And then I tell myself that, OK, but I said I won't do that again.

00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:37.029
And I won't right now, except for the next time when they get really loud again.

00:28:37.669 --> 00:28:41.689
And you said something earlier that we might not know we exist if we're being ignored.

00:28:41.949 --> 00:28:44.529
And I know as adults, we've got the knowledge to know, well,

00:28:44.569 --> 00:28:47.149
I do exist, you know, I can touch a door and it responds.

00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:51.569
But what we as a child where we might feel like, am I actually invisible?

00:28:51.969 --> 00:28:55.629
As an adult, we're going is our value invisible?

00:28:56.289 --> 00:29:00.749
Is my need to be needed and valued in this relationship disappearing?

00:29:01.779 --> 00:29:06.059
Well, you sent me a nice text about a podcast series I did. I did this two-part

00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:08.439
one of Jack and Jill. Which is incredible.

00:29:08.719 --> 00:29:12.239
You're very kind. I worked on that one a long time. But you got Jill,

00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:14.119
who's her childhood was unpredictable.

00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:17.859
Her mom struggled with untreated anxiety, depression, oscillated between emotional

00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:21.579
absence and emotional flooding. Then you've got a kid that if she was upset,

00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:23.519
her mom sometimes didn't even notice.

00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.339
And then sometimes she would notice, but she didn't respond.

00:29:26.619 --> 00:29:31.099
And then sometimes, even more confusingly, Jill's emotions, and we're talking

00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:35.259
when she was a kid, would then trigger this complete collapse of her mom.

00:29:35.439 --> 00:29:37.239
And then Jill would then have to go and...

00:29:37.761 --> 00:29:40.661
Comfort her mom. And then Jill's dad was really emotionally distant.

00:29:40.801 --> 00:29:41.901
These were based off of real people.

00:29:42.081 --> 00:29:46.841
So her nervous system now is learning that connection's unstable and it could vanish at any minute.

00:29:46.861 --> 00:29:50.181
And that when somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong.

00:29:50.381 --> 00:29:53.681
So you just look at the way that that starts playing out or her feelings are

00:29:53.681 --> 00:29:54.841
either too much or not enough.

00:29:55.061 --> 00:29:59.581
She's responsible for other people's emotions because that's literally what her mom was showing her.

00:29:59.941 --> 00:30:02.481
And then the bigger one is if I can just be attentive enough,

00:30:02.621 --> 00:30:04.461
loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay.

00:30:04.701 --> 00:30:09.301
And so you've got somebody that then shows up in a relationship and they become this human doing.

00:30:09.541 --> 00:30:12.541
I just have to continually do. And basically it goes back to what we're talking

00:30:12.541 --> 00:30:17.561
about where in order to know that I matter or that in a translation that I exist,

00:30:17.781 --> 00:30:23.221
she learns that connection is uncertain and I have to continually work to secure it.

00:30:23.321 --> 00:30:25.701
If it isn't there, then I'm doing something wrong.

00:30:25.961 --> 00:30:29.661
Talk about a disadvantage of somebody just learning how to be or become versus

00:30:29.661 --> 00:30:33.561
what do I have to do? And then it will literally never feel like enough.

00:30:33.761 --> 00:30:39.361
It sounds like a good explanation of what validation is. is acknowledging and considering.

00:30:39.721 --> 00:30:42.761
Yes, I like this acknowledging and considering. And especially the,

00:30:42.941 --> 00:30:46.061
because acknowledging, and it's when you're introduced to me with the parenting

00:30:46.061 --> 00:30:50.301
information too, I love this nurtured heart approach is the parenting model I love.

00:30:50.601 --> 00:30:55.361
And one of the first parts about that is just, they call it active recognition

00:30:55.361 --> 00:30:59.161
of just even my kid walks in the room and I say, hey, Jake, Sid,

00:30:59.361 --> 00:31:01.541
I just say their name. I acknowledge that you are there.

00:31:01.781 --> 00:31:04.581
I remember when I used to do a lot of work with teenagers where I would hear

00:31:04.581 --> 00:31:07.481
this, I don't even know if my parents know I'm part of the family.

00:31:07.621 --> 00:31:11.041
I think that people do start to think, okay, what do I have to do in order to

00:31:11.041 --> 00:31:12.481
know that I exist or I matter?

00:31:12.801 --> 00:31:17.161
And unfortunately, a lot of times they don't get acknowledged until or validated,

00:31:17.321 --> 00:31:21.561
as sad as it is, until they are in trouble or they do something wrong or bad.

00:31:21.561 --> 00:31:25.501
And when they're doing things well, it's almost like the parent saying,

00:31:25.581 --> 00:31:27.301
okay, well, I don't want to, I don't want to disturb them.

00:31:27.541 --> 00:31:31.181
Or, well, I need, I have to focus more on the kids that are getting in trouble.

00:31:31.820 --> 00:31:35.140
And so then this person doesn't even, they're not even seen or understood or

00:31:35.140 --> 00:31:37.900
acknowledged. And then what was the other one you said? Was it considered?

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:41.100
Considered. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, I think that it's,

00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.340
that someone's willing to look at things from your perspective.

00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:49.240
Yeah. If you had to describe or define validation, what would you say?

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:51.240
I'm going to go with the two.

00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.860
And only because I don't have a go-to definition and I like exploring the concept.

00:31:55.060 --> 00:31:58.640
But what I like about considered is that it means that somebody really does

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:00.020
see me. They want to know me.

00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.680
They want to know the things about me. And I think that does calm our central

00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:09.260
nervous system to know that, man, this person is invested in getting to know me.

00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:12.640
And I think so often as a couples therapist, and I think I borrowed this from

00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:17.080
Jennifer Finless and Fife, but it's the courage to be known and then the courage to know somebody.

00:32:17.080 --> 00:32:21.860
And a lot of times we can put ourselves out there, but then if we aren't validated,

00:32:22.060 --> 00:32:25.620
we aren't considered, it can feel pretty hollow to then say,

00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.420
man, I'm really putting out, putting myself out there, especially to a partner.

00:32:28.600 --> 00:32:31.980
And then they're not responding with consideration, curiosity.

00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.340
There's a client that I just love to death and she talks about being nothing.

00:32:35.620 --> 00:32:39.980
And that phrase just hits me every time where she could put herself out there

00:32:39.980 --> 00:32:44.920
and a spouse who's not saying anything, that that can feel worse than even sometimes

00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:46.220
when one is criticizing.

00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:47.760
Because criticizing, at least

00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:50.740
you know you exist, that this person is willing to interact with you.

00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:53.780
But then the nothing is, I just said words out into the void,

00:32:53.780 --> 00:32:56.960
and this person's literally in front of me and no response at all.

00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:00.700
And are you familiar with the never-ending story?

00:33:01.330 --> 00:33:08.090
Oh, is that with the bad animation and the puppets back in the 70s or 80s? No, it is in the 80s.

00:33:08.270 --> 00:33:12.590
No, but the never-ending story has this different planet.

00:33:12.970 --> 00:33:17.530
And they have the nothing that is like eating the planet. I forgot about that. Nothing.

00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:21.610
Yeah, that is scary. We do. We want somebody to know us. We want somebody to

00:33:21.610 --> 00:33:25.710
hopefully be genuinely curious about us. And oh, and this is what I like, Angela.

00:33:25.910 --> 00:33:29.730
Back to the people that say you don't need validation. Validation is a bad word.

00:33:29.730 --> 00:33:34.890
When you're healthy, that you're learning that I am okay.

00:33:35.210 --> 00:33:39.770
And now I want to share this thing with another person. I still want a connection,

00:33:39.770 --> 00:33:43.190
but it doesn't mean that I don't want validation.

00:33:43.430 --> 00:33:47.190
It's, I think it's really good, especially when somebody is giving it to me

00:33:47.190 --> 00:33:49.890
who knows me, who cares about me.

00:33:50.010 --> 00:33:54.350
And it's the old cliche that if I don't love myself, then I can't truly love

00:33:54.350 --> 00:33:56.970
somebody else because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out

00:33:56.970 --> 00:33:58.290
a way to get this person to love me.

00:33:58.390 --> 00:34:02.090
And I think that can often be part of that trap of seeking validation because

00:34:02.090 --> 00:34:04.270
I'm trying to get this person to validate me.

00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:09.310
But if I know who I am and then I'm putting myself out there because I want

00:34:09.310 --> 00:34:11.450
to share an experience with another person.

00:34:12.078 --> 00:34:17.318
And they respond, then that feels amazing. That can be a healthy form of validation.

00:34:17.698 --> 00:34:22.318
But it's when I'm seeking it or I desperately need it, that's where it can really be a challenge.

00:34:22.838 --> 00:34:25.838
Because if I'm trying to figure out a way to get this person to validate me

00:34:25.838 --> 00:34:30.478
and I'm not being myself, I'm worried about the things I say or I'm not willing.

00:34:30.718 --> 00:34:33.878
People pleasing, jumping through the hoops, trying to be the doers so you can

00:34:33.878 --> 00:34:35.438
get the reward at the end. Yes.

00:34:35.678 --> 00:34:38.678
Yeah. Yeah. You tied that up well. So then if I go back to what we were talking

00:34:38.678 --> 00:34:41.258
about with this earlier example, that if I do the right things,

00:34:41.398 --> 00:34:43.758
then and then the person says, great job.

00:34:44.258 --> 00:34:49.438
Cool. Okay. I just have to do that combination of things again every time and I'll get the good job.

00:34:49.598 --> 00:34:52.458
But then I'm so desperate of trying to figure out what those things are.

00:34:52.678 --> 00:34:54.658
Did I do them well enough, long enough?

00:34:54.978 --> 00:34:58.158
And then why is it that sometimes I do those things and I'm told that those

00:34:58.158 --> 00:34:59.298
weren't even the right things to do.

00:34:59.458 --> 00:35:03.918
So it can be really confusing versus I have to know they're the right things to do, period.

00:35:04.658 --> 00:35:10.758
And I connect in my mind this idea that if we are living to please somebody

00:35:10.758 --> 00:35:13.898
else, we're not necessarily living according to our values.

00:35:14.158 --> 00:35:19.398
Right. And so if other people seeing us, acknowledging us, considering us is validation.

00:35:19.678 --> 00:35:23.398
But one of the core things you brought up is this concept of I am okay.

00:35:23.678 --> 00:35:28.458
I would call that self-validation. Yeah. Like you're letting yourself know I'm

00:35:28.458 --> 00:35:34.118
okay and I exist and these are my values. and then you can enjoy living from

00:35:34.118 --> 00:35:37.158
your values and getting feedback from others if it's positive,

00:35:37.298 --> 00:35:38.478
then that validation changes.

00:35:39.175 --> 00:35:43.395
Feels a lot better. Yeah, it does. And then if somebody is not validating you

00:35:43.395 --> 00:35:46.715
and you're okay, if you're in a relationship with this person,

00:35:46.855 --> 00:35:50.975
you can be genuinely curious about why they said the things they did or why

00:35:50.975 --> 00:35:52.255
they aren't responding.

00:35:52.515 --> 00:35:56.275
Hey, I want to understand why you don't say anything back. But you have to be

00:35:56.275 --> 00:36:00.055
so okay with yourself and grounded to be able to do that because the answers

00:36:00.055 --> 00:36:02.655
could be, well, I thought what you said was dumb.

00:36:03.015 --> 00:36:05.835
Well, then I have to know, okay, well, I know what I said wasn't dumb.

00:36:05.955 --> 00:36:08.095
That seems pretty immature, but tell me why you thought it was dumb.

00:36:08.235 --> 00:36:09.315
I really want to know you.

00:36:09.655 --> 00:36:13.395
And I will put these numbers on it that I think ultimately try to help somebody

00:36:13.395 --> 00:36:16.515
get to this. I call it 90% solid, 10% flexible sense of self.

00:36:16.695 --> 00:36:21.435
So I know who I am. What if 90% of the time my response is going to be that

00:36:21.435 --> 00:36:24.995
I'm okay, but I'm gonna leave 10% open because I want to interact with other humans.

00:36:25.335 --> 00:36:30.775
And then I want feedback, but that doesn't mean that I have to fold or say you're

00:36:30.775 --> 00:36:33.175
right, or okay, I'll do the thing that you're telling me to do.

00:36:33.495 --> 00:36:37.495
But I can be genuinely curious about why you think that would be good or beneficial for me.

00:36:37.695 --> 00:36:41.455
And I love that you say that, too, and that you say, I don't have to fold.

00:36:41.615 --> 00:36:45.435
I don't have to agree because you just highlighted what validation is not.

00:36:45.715 --> 00:36:47.815
Validation is not necessarily agreeing.

00:36:48.335 --> 00:36:53.195
It's recognizing and understanding, acknowledging, but you can still have a

00:36:53.195 --> 00:36:57.315
different opinion while also addressing someone else's, which is validating. Yeah.

00:36:57.515 --> 00:37:00.955
And when you go back to this concept of co-regulating, when one person starts

00:37:00.955 --> 00:37:04.635
to become more grounded, more differentiated, the other person doesn't always

00:37:04.635 --> 00:37:08.715
just ease into safety like the baby does to the mom.

00:37:09.015 --> 00:37:12.635
They will typically then think, okay, this doesn't feel right.

00:37:12.915 --> 00:37:16.635
So I'm going to say bigger things or I'm going to push new buttons to try to

00:37:16.635 --> 00:37:18.635
get you to react because I'm used to you reacting.

00:37:18.655 --> 00:37:21.795
Because if we really get into the weeds of truly emotionally immature...

00:37:22.602 --> 00:37:26.842
Is that because if I really don't even know why I'm saying the things I'm doing,

00:37:26.982 --> 00:37:30.382
I just say these things, you react, and I get to say, okay, well, you're the problem.

00:37:30.962 --> 00:37:35.482
But if you all of a sudden are reacting, then wait, do I have to do something about that myself?

00:37:35.682 --> 00:37:38.682
Do I have to look at my own behavior? And that's not something that is very

00:37:38.682 --> 00:37:42.402
fun for the emotionally mature to do. And I think in family systems,

00:37:42.402 --> 00:37:46.682
they talk about this idea of equilibrium, where we're used to being a certain

00:37:46.682 --> 00:37:49.182
way, and that's comfortable, even if it's not healthy.

00:37:49.562 --> 00:37:53.902
And so as one person does become more grounded, the other person might be striving

00:37:53.902 --> 00:37:56.382
for that equilibrium in the ways they know how.

00:37:57.122 --> 00:38:00.902
And one of my therapists that I talked to said, the more awkward you feel,

00:38:01.002 --> 00:38:02.142
the better you're likely doing.

00:38:02.762 --> 00:38:07.162
Because change is going to feel uncomfortable. If we're doing it,

00:38:07.322 --> 00:38:08.902
hopefully we're doing it right.

00:38:09.022 --> 00:38:12.862
If we're following good advice, there's going to be an awkwardness until we

00:38:12.862 --> 00:38:14.322
ease into that comfort with time.

00:38:14.682 --> 00:38:18.702
That's so good. I like that. I think it is so often somebody that is finally

00:38:18.702 --> 00:38:19.862
expressing themselves.

00:38:19.962 --> 00:38:23.522
But if they don't get the validation in real time from the other person,

00:38:23.682 --> 00:38:28.142
it's awkward. If I don't get the validation, then I need to ask for the validation.

00:38:28.958 --> 00:38:32.238
Usually after I'll do the 90-10, I'll say, okay, let's say that somebody's 40%

00:38:32.238 --> 00:38:34.198
solid, but 60% flexible sense of self.

00:38:34.458 --> 00:38:37.878
Then I literally am asking others, well, what do you think about me?

00:38:37.958 --> 00:38:38.918
Or what do you think I should do?

00:38:39.198 --> 00:38:42.938
And I want to just say, hold on, I have no idea what it feels like to be you.

00:38:43.078 --> 00:38:45.898
How much you think about this thing that whatever it is you're asking me for

00:38:45.898 --> 00:38:50.518
my opinion on. And as a therapist, it's kind of interesting because they train you when people ask you.

00:38:51.038 --> 00:38:56.798
Our job is to not answer and let them decide who they are. I'm not here to tell

00:38:56.798 --> 00:38:58.278
you what to do or who you are.

00:38:58.598 --> 00:39:01.278
We get to discover that together and you could talk about it,

00:39:01.418 --> 00:39:04.058
but not my job, your job. Right.

00:39:04.378 --> 00:39:08.318
And it's so good to Angela, because that does speak so often to the person that's

00:39:08.318 --> 00:39:12.338
in our office has not even had that chance before. So they genuinely don't know.

00:39:12.738 --> 00:39:14.378
They want to say, well, I don't know what the right answer is.

00:39:14.458 --> 00:39:19.858
And, oh, there isn't one. This is your life. You get to go do and explore and decide.

00:39:20.098 --> 00:39:24.338
And there's going to be plenty more choices after that one. But if somebody

00:39:24.338 --> 00:39:26.518
has been raised in this, I don't want to get it wrong.

00:39:26.838 --> 00:39:30.578
Or there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Then that means,

00:39:30.698 --> 00:39:35.498
well, if I'm not thinking about things the way that you do, then I must be doing it the wrong way.

00:39:35.918 --> 00:39:39.058
And the wrong way comes with a good old dose of good old guilt,

00:39:39.218 --> 00:39:40.698
which eventually makes us all the way to shame.

00:39:40.838 --> 00:39:45.158
Not, oh man, I feel bad about that versus I am bad. I am. I continually think the wrong thing.

00:39:45.838 --> 00:39:47.318
Versus this is what I'm thinking.

00:39:48.178 --> 00:39:50.578
But then nobody's there to be curious about it. They're just there to tell me,

00:39:50.718 --> 00:39:52.918
well, that's not the right thing, champ. You shouldn't be thinking that.

00:39:53.398 --> 00:39:56.658
And I would say if that's the response you're getting from a lot of people in

00:39:56.658 --> 00:40:00.278
your life, look for some more people in your life. Yeah, yeah.

00:40:00.718 --> 00:40:02.618
Maybe you can branch out and find somebody who does.

00:40:03.178 --> 00:40:07.278
Right. And it's such a good point about the origin story of this need for validation.

00:40:07.278 --> 00:40:11.558
If we grew up in homes, and in this two-part Jack and Jill episode that I did,

00:40:11.698 --> 00:40:14.718
I tried to lay out what it would have looked like in a healthy version,

00:40:15.018 --> 00:40:19.318
where if Jill, the one we were talking about earlier, grows up where her parents

00:40:19.318 --> 00:40:24.298
are grounded, and they're good, they're differentiated, they model accepting responsibility,

00:40:24.598 --> 00:40:26.878
acknowledging if they did something that they didn't mean to,

00:40:26.998 --> 00:40:30.018
or that hurt somebody's feelings, or if Jill comes home and she's upset,

00:40:30.138 --> 00:40:33.098
and then they're able to say, man, tell me about it, and they make space for it.

00:40:33.098 --> 00:40:36.058
Because there's even a good sounding version of this where the parent says,

00:40:36.198 --> 00:40:37.718
well, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.

00:40:37.838 --> 00:40:40.078
You'll get over it. And everybody has these problems or challenges.

00:40:40.438 --> 00:40:43.258
But what they're telling the kid is, hey, I know you're having feelings and

00:40:43.258 --> 00:40:47.038
emotions, but you shouldn't be. And they're not a big deal, even though they

00:40:47.038 --> 00:40:48.058
feel like a big deal to you.

00:40:48.338 --> 00:40:51.818
And so there's even a nice version of that, that the kid is learning.

00:40:51.958 --> 00:40:57.178
Okay, so not only are my feelings and emotions wrong, but I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.

00:40:58.189 --> 00:41:04.029
Exactly. So, this podcast is specifically about mental health and spirituality.

00:41:04.669 --> 00:41:10.089
So, I would love to hear what you think about validation from a spiritual standpoint.

00:41:10.549 --> 00:41:15.029
Okay. Let me find my soapbox and my wind machine because I want my hair to blow while I say this.

00:41:15.149 --> 00:41:17.529
I do want to say where I want to meet people where they're at.

00:41:17.649 --> 00:41:20.189
And for some people, spirituality is a really important aspect.

00:41:20.389 --> 00:41:23.189
And others deal with a lot of people that have navigated faith journey,

00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:26.169
faith deconstruction, faith crisis. this. It's interesting.

00:41:26.389 --> 00:41:29.409
It's called this relational frame of where we all have a word,

00:41:29.669 --> 00:41:31.809
has a meaning, and it has an emotion behind it.

00:41:31.929 --> 00:41:35.889
And so, sometimes talking about spiritual things with someone will trigger them.

00:41:36.149 --> 00:41:40.409
And other times, it will be the familiar and that the person wants to have some

00:41:40.409 --> 00:41:42.789
sort of spiritual reference or frame.

00:41:42.949 --> 00:41:45.889
I have two big concepts that I'm grateful to be able to share.

00:41:46.009 --> 00:41:49.449
I've got the atonement, and I also have God as a differentiated father.

00:41:49.749 --> 00:41:52.309
So, those are my two big ones that I don't get to speak enough about.

00:41:52.689 --> 00:41:57.189
So, whether it's literal or metaphorical. The concept about the atonement of

00:41:57.189 --> 00:42:00.949
Christ is that he took on the sins of the world, bled at every poor,

00:42:01.309 --> 00:42:03.849
has felt everything. So, he has this perfect knowledge.

00:42:04.069 --> 00:42:07.349
What I think gets overlooked is that the atonement isn't just about sin.

00:42:07.449 --> 00:42:10.389
It's about grief and sorrow and pain and loss and all the big feelings.

00:42:10.789 --> 00:42:14.949
So, I like this concept that Jesus had perfect empathy. He's a great empath.

00:42:15.349 --> 00:42:19.249
And so, then when we go to somebody and we say, what do you think I should do

00:42:19.249 --> 00:42:24.169
or somebody goes to someone, even from a place of confession, is that you're.

00:42:24.691 --> 00:42:29.231
Often asking, I don't like the way I feel right now and I need somebody else

00:42:29.231 --> 00:42:30.551
to tell me that I'm going to be okay.

00:42:31.071 --> 00:42:35.311
I've worked with a lot of people and there's almost like a spiritual roulette

00:42:35.311 --> 00:42:39.511
of sorts, a leadership roulette, where somebody can go to a leader and then

00:42:39.511 --> 00:42:44.031
they can confess or look for spiritual guidance and leave feeling worse because

00:42:44.031 --> 00:42:45.831
the person says, man, that's really bad.

00:42:45.911 --> 00:42:48.411
I can't believe you did that. Do you know what you're risking?

00:42:48.711 --> 00:42:51.791
And I can have another spiritual leader say, thank you so much for sharing that

00:42:51.791 --> 00:42:54.591
with me. That must've been really hard. How am I here to support you?

00:42:54.911 --> 00:42:58.171
And you don't know. You don't know which version of that you can get.

00:42:58.191 --> 00:43:00.191
And I could talk about that for a long time.

00:43:00.451 --> 00:43:05.791
And so the concept of wanting to go to somebody for validation or to be told that you're okay is.

00:43:06.183 --> 00:43:09.743
Again, it can work except for the times it doesn't. But if you look at that

00:43:09.743 --> 00:43:12.823
concept of the atonement, going to Christ to say, am I okay?

00:43:13.183 --> 00:43:19.143
That atonement, then if we say nobody knows exactly how it feels to be you other than Jesus.

00:43:19.403 --> 00:43:22.163
Again, this is why I love the concept of it's literal or it's metaphorical,

00:43:22.363 --> 00:43:26.463
is that he knows your hopes, your dreams, your pains, your fears,

00:43:26.603 --> 00:43:28.403
your sorrows, your grief, your joy, your sadness.

00:43:28.623 --> 00:43:32.923
And so no one that you're going to talk to on a day-to-day basis will ever know

00:43:32.923 --> 00:43:36.063
what it feels like to be you. My big joke here is when somebody says,

00:43:36.243 --> 00:43:37.803
I know exactly what you're going through.

00:43:38.003 --> 00:43:42.423
Like they don't. And my most hilarious moment of this was I was doing a big training.

00:43:42.603 --> 00:43:46.083
They had a bunch of people that were in these bishoprics and relief side presidencies,

00:43:46.223 --> 00:43:46.943
elders horn presidencies.

00:43:47.083 --> 00:43:51.303
And this guy got up and he said, hey, can you just give me advice on what's the best way to tell?

00:43:51.463 --> 00:43:54.783
He's like, I've got this lady. She's single. She's got three kids. I'm working with her.

00:43:55.063 --> 00:43:57.903
And he's like, look, I know exactly what it's like to have three little kids.

00:43:57.923 --> 00:44:00.743
And she just doesn't really want to hear what I have to say.

00:44:00.743 --> 00:44:04.223
And so I said, so when you were a single mom, it was a guy, right?

00:44:04.523 --> 00:44:08.003
I said, when you were a single mom of three, then I mean, this is what you did

00:44:08.003 --> 00:44:10.783
that made you feel better. And everybody laughed and he was a good sport.

00:44:10.983 --> 00:44:14.343
But it's like, nobody knows what it feels like to be you because we're all this

00:44:14.343 --> 00:44:16.863
combination of our nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment,

00:44:16.903 --> 00:44:18.683
all the things that make us us.

00:44:18.963 --> 00:44:21.603
So no one, of course, no one knows what it feels like to be you.

00:44:21.723 --> 00:44:24.643
Even when somebody says that, it actually shuts us down a little bit.

00:44:24.983 --> 00:44:27.723
Even being able to say, man, I have no idea what that must feel like,

00:44:27.743 --> 00:44:30.883
or I can only imagine what that would feel like. But I really want to understand.

00:44:31.343 --> 00:44:34.523
It's difficult because even when the person starts to explain what it's like

00:44:34.523 --> 00:44:38.443
to be them, our natural almost fix it or defense mechanisms are going to say,

00:44:38.543 --> 00:44:41.523
but you're doing a great job or you don't need to worry about that.

00:44:41.623 --> 00:44:44.543
Or a lot of people are going through this and it can just feel so unseen.

00:44:44.543 --> 00:44:48.483
So, I love the concept of that the atonement is this example of no one knows

00:44:48.483 --> 00:44:50.083
what it feels like to be you except for Jesus.

00:44:50.403 --> 00:44:55.543
And maybe we need to think before we go to somebody else to say, am I okay?

00:44:55.923 --> 00:45:00.363
And asking someone else to then validate something that they could never imagine

00:45:00.363 --> 00:45:01.443
that we've been through before.

00:45:01.663 --> 00:45:05.463
I love that about the atonement. I would love your thoughts if anything comes up from that.

00:45:06.264 --> 00:45:11.344
I was thinking, anytime that we have any sort of revelation or inspiration or

00:45:11.344 --> 00:45:17.444
messages from God, even if people have really messed up, the first thing that he says is, I love you.

00:45:17.664 --> 00:45:19.764
Yep. Or he calls them beloved.

00:45:20.124 --> 00:45:25.404
And then he might address the problem and then immediately tells them how to move forward.

00:45:26.285 --> 00:45:30.305
Yeah, moving forward with love and kindness and compassion and charity and love

00:45:30.305 --> 00:45:31.845
unfeigned and hope and the bright.

00:45:31.945 --> 00:45:36.165
And it actually sets the table perfectly for this other concept is that God,

00:45:36.325 --> 00:45:39.865
as a heavenly father, is the most differentiated entity, being,

00:45:40.045 --> 00:45:43.605
because he knows, and I will go he, she,

00:45:43.905 --> 00:45:48.225
they, the universe, whatever one's spiritual higher power would be.

00:45:48.225 --> 00:45:51.345
They're good because they are, because they know they are.

00:45:51.465 --> 00:45:56.225
So then I can do things that aren't perfect and they don't look at that as I'm

00:45:56.225 --> 00:45:59.065
a bad parent, because that's the lack of differentiation.

00:45:59.105 --> 00:46:03.285
If my kids do something and I'm upset because they make me feel bad or they

00:46:03.285 --> 00:46:07.245
make me look bad, I lack differentiation. I lack true grounded.

00:46:07.445 --> 00:46:10.205
But if I'm okay, then they're going to go and do the things they're going to

00:46:10.205 --> 00:46:13.345
do because they are, because they're kids, because they're going to go through

00:46:13.345 --> 00:46:16.925
experiences and things are not going to be perfect and life is messy and all those things.

00:46:17.525 --> 00:46:22.085
But a differentiated parent is grounded and they're steady. I know who I am.

00:46:22.145 --> 00:46:24.145
So you don't need to make me feel better.

00:46:24.545 --> 00:46:27.665
And I am not disappointed in you. So then this is where I go with,

00:46:27.785 --> 00:46:31.685
if God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and his love is unconditional,

00:46:31.925 --> 00:46:36.145
which I believe in all those things, then whenever I think God's mad at me, that's a me thing.

00:46:36.245 --> 00:46:38.905
I can turn to God and say, man, you must be disappointed.

00:46:39.185 --> 00:46:43.245
It's like, nope, that's a you thing. I'm good. I love you the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

00:46:43.525 --> 00:46:47.685
My love is unchanging and unconditional. And I am here. Now we look at the concept

00:46:47.685 --> 00:46:51.085
of repentance, which the definition I wanted was the one about turning to.

00:46:51.445 --> 00:46:56.765
So now if repentance means to turn toward a God who is so differentiated,

00:46:56.945 --> 00:47:00.165
grounded, and loving, and is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow,

00:47:00.405 --> 00:47:04.985
then I will repent all the time because my repentance is me being able to check

00:47:04.985 --> 00:47:09.485
in with my grounded parent that's, hey, I can make space for all your big emotions

00:47:09.485 --> 00:47:11.325
and your feelings, and you're okay.

00:47:11.485 --> 00:47:13.945
I don't have to tell you that you need to do it a different way.

00:47:15.069 --> 00:47:18.269
I'm here and I can provide you with what I, if you really want to know what

00:47:18.269 --> 00:47:20.749
I would do, sure, I'll have that conversation.

00:47:20.849 --> 00:47:23.209
But ultimately, you're going to do the things you're going to do because you're

00:47:23.209 --> 00:47:25.369
you and that's how I made you. And isn't that amazing?

00:47:25.529 --> 00:47:29.229
So stop trying to outsource your worth and your need for validation to other

00:47:29.229 --> 00:47:32.849
people because that has the potential for them to tell you that you're not of

00:47:32.849 --> 00:47:35.189
worth. If I'm going to go to somebody else and say, what do you think?

00:47:35.389 --> 00:47:39.589
What I'm really asking is, I think I know that I'm okay, but I need another

00:47:39.589 --> 00:47:43.009
person to interact with in order to bring up some more feelings and emotions in me.

00:47:43.189 --> 00:47:45.189
I may go to somebody and say, what do you think? And they say,

00:47:45.249 --> 00:47:47.509
well, I think you should do this. And I can even tell them, hey, thank you.

00:47:47.689 --> 00:47:50.949
But on the inside say, oh, wow, that is like the craziest thing I've ever heard.

00:47:51.069 --> 00:47:54.909
I'm definitely not going to be doing that, which further helps me solidify the

00:47:54.909 --> 00:47:57.789
way that I want to show up. So I think when you put that concept of the atonement

00:47:57.789 --> 00:48:02.189
that nobody knows what it feels like to be you except for Christ and Christ said, you're good.

00:48:02.289 --> 00:48:04.789
And I can turn to a grounded, differentiated Heavenly Father who says,

00:48:04.909 --> 00:48:06.529
not only are you good, I love you always.

00:48:07.629 --> 00:48:12.309
I think that is the model that I'd like to think that I'm trying to work toward or achieve.

00:48:13.009 --> 00:48:17.289
That's awesome. And it reminds me of the Max Licato book, You Are Special.

00:48:17.289 --> 00:48:22.309
That is just one of my favorite things because you go to other people for validation

00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:27.389
but sometimes we just need to go to God and to establish our identity and recognize

00:48:27.389 --> 00:48:31.429
our worth we don't have to find our worth our worth is there sometimes we want

00:48:31.429 --> 00:48:36.689
a mirror and so it's best if we go to the best mirror that there can be which is

00:48:37.016 --> 00:48:41.496
And knowing that he loves me because he loves me because he loves me.

00:48:41.736 --> 00:48:46.356
And like I said earlier, because I am loved, I am the beloved. So I am loved.

00:48:46.536 --> 00:48:49.956
So when I don't feel like he loves me, I think it's so important to know that

00:48:49.956 --> 00:48:52.436
is a me thing. Why am I not feeling that?

00:48:52.716 --> 00:48:56.896
Because I can turn to him and he's there and he loves me because he does.

00:48:57.096 --> 00:48:58.856
I can get a little woo on this too.

00:48:59.216 --> 00:49:03.776
I'm not the biggest fan of the concept even of around the feelings or meanings

00:49:03.776 --> 00:49:06.496
even the word sin can have with it because we're just going through life the

00:49:06.496 --> 00:49:07.636
first time. doing things.

00:49:07.896 --> 00:49:11.476
And we do things. And sometimes people say, man, I love the way you did that.

00:49:11.576 --> 00:49:13.236
And I think, oh, cool, I did it good.

00:49:13.516 --> 00:49:16.436
But the same thing I might do, somebody else, they don't like it.

00:49:16.556 --> 00:49:18.156
Then they say, I don't like that you did that thing. I think,

00:49:18.316 --> 00:49:19.776
man, darn it, I did a bad thing.

00:49:19.876 --> 00:49:24.456
And so I'm outsourcing even my approval or validation on how someone else is

00:49:24.456 --> 00:49:26.336
feeling about something and whatever their experience is.

00:49:26.416 --> 00:49:28.996
If I say this and somebody's like, oh, so murder is okay. I'm like,

00:49:29.056 --> 00:49:32.576
if you go right to murder when I say that, that's probably the problem, you know?

00:49:33.516 --> 00:49:36.836
Right. Sometimes when we look at it, a benign example, it can make more sense

00:49:36.836 --> 00:49:38.576
because what you're talking about is experience.

00:49:39.136 --> 00:49:43.916
Sin sometimes is something that you can never wipe away, but it's not like that.

00:49:44.036 --> 00:49:47.616
And my daughter runs cross country and she did a race and it wasn't a really great time.

00:49:47.756 --> 00:49:50.676
And her coach afterwards was talking to them and said, the only bad race is

00:49:50.676 --> 00:49:51.776
the one that you don't learn from.

00:49:52.096 --> 00:49:56.736
Yeah. And I think that's how it works with sin too. The only unpardonable sin

00:49:56.736 --> 00:49:57.996
is the one you don't learn from.

00:49:58.236 --> 00:50:01.456
So it's this experience. Yeah, we're going to make mistakes,

00:50:01.656 --> 00:50:03.336
but these mistakes are to help us learn.

00:50:03.556 --> 00:50:05.816
I know. And I have to tell you, Angela, just because I'm trying to be the most

00:50:05.816 --> 00:50:10.036
grounded, authentic, valid, whatever person that I can be, is even the concept

00:50:10.036 --> 00:50:12.796
of a mistake is fascinating to me because if I'm going through life for the

00:50:12.796 --> 00:50:14.336
very first time as me doing things,

00:50:14.936 --> 00:50:19.036
then I mean, I don't think I'm trying to do them in order to make someone upset

00:50:19.036 --> 00:50:23.396
or with the hope that this will be identified as a mistake, but I might not

00:50:23.396 --> 00:50:24.996
show up the way that I had hoped I would.

00:50:25.196 --> 00:50:27.836
And then I like what you're saying because at the core of that is like,

00:50:27.916 --> 00:50:29.456
well, there's more data. That's interesting.

00:50:30.116 --> 00:50:32.316
And one of my favorite things is when somebody will even say,

00:50:32.476 --> 00:50:35.576
well, why'd you do that? My actual answer is because I did.

00:50:35.756 --> 00:50:38.916
But now we can take a look at why I did it, whatever it is, because it sounds

00:50:38.916 --> 00:50:40.776
like you're pretty disappointed in what I did.

00:50:41.266 --> 00:50:44.306
And so I do want to understand. And then I will take ownership of it,

00:50:44.366 --> 00:50:47.626
something that I'm not a big fan of either, because the real reason I did it

00:50:47.626 --> 00:50:50.366
was because I reacted to something in that moment the way that I did.

00:50:50.606 --> 00:50:54.466
Because I think so much of this is I will have somebody practice in my office

00:50:54.466 --> 00:50:56.426
of being grounded and differentiated and curious.

00:50:56.746 --> 00:50:59.186
And then they go out and start trying to have the conversation with somebody

00:50:59.186 --> 00:51:01.466
and it doesn't go like they had planned.

00:51:01.726 --> 00:51:04.646
And they come back and it's all this talk about, man, I blew it and I couldn't

00:51:04.646 --> 00:51:06.766
even do this thing. And I know that you're disappointed. And I'm like,

00:51:07.146 --> 00:51:09.446
oh, that is a lot of stuff we got to cut through versus.

00:51:09.866 --> 00:51:12.786
So check this out. I felt great about it here. I went out there.

00:51:12.906 --> 00:51:16.106
That didn't go very well. That's fascinating. So now we can look at it.

00:51:16.626 --> 00:51:20.066
We just got so much more session out of that thing than I need to put you back

00:51:20.066 --> 00:51:23.926
together for half an hour to then see if we can get to the, well, tell me more about that.

00:51:24.866 --> 00:51:29.386
Oh my goodness. Well, I know we have to get you ready to go on to meet some more people today.

00:51:29.626 --> 00:51:33.666
I could talk to you for hours and hours. Angela, you're doing great work.

00:51:34.946 --> 00:51:39.426
You're in the right place, the right profession. Thank you. is really exciting

00:51:39.426 --> 00:51:43.766
to be able to be part of this where things that we can learn ourselves and get to turn around.

00:51:44.006 --> 00:51:46.446
And one of the other podcasts I really love is The Full Cup.

00:51:46.666 --> 00:51:49.666
And he always talks about how cool is it that I get to sit here and learn from

00:51:49.666 --> 00:51:51.106
other people's experiences.

00:51:52.006 --> 00:51:55.186
And he calls it turning it to wisdom. And I just think that is,

00:51:55.566 --> 00:51:58.346
that's exactly what we get to do. We get to turn it to wisdom.

00:51:58.586 --> 00:52:02.746
So thank you, Tony, for coming on and sharing your wisdom today about validation

00:52:02.746 --> 00:52:05.366
and especially with a spiritual lens.

00:52:05.506 --> 00:52:08.666
I just love that we can apply that. Yeah, no, thanks for letting me do that.

00:52:08.746 --> 00:52:10.426
That isn't all the time. All right, until we meet again.

00:52:10.626 --> 00:52:13.486
Thanks, Angela. All right. All right, we'll talk to you later. Okay, bye-bye.