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Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch.

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I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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a certified mindful habit coach, and creator of the Magnetic Marriage Program.

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Let me just start with this. I want to ask you something, because I just came

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out of a session right before I'm hitting record.

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Have you ever had a conversation with your spouse that somehow turned into a

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disagreement? I was going to go with fight, but a disagreement about a disagreement,

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maybe even about a disagreement that happened many, many years ago.

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And it comes up over and over again.

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And it feels like this circular questioning problem.

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And it feels maddening. And you just feel stuck and misheard,

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misunderstood. Because if you have had that experience, you're perfectly normal

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and your relationship is experiencing things that relationships experience.

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I find that so often connection has faded into just talking about logistics

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and sometimes you'll say the right words.

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How was your day? But is it just to check a box? And I love this phrase from

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putting the first round of the magnetic marriage course together years ago.

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Does it ever feel like your roommate's running a daycare with somebody that you used to date?

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I've been a therapist now for over 20 years and a couples therapist for most,

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if not all, of those 20 years.

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And at this point, I've worked with well over 1,500 couples.

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I can say that I know that you love each other.

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But somewhere along the way, most likely you stop feeling connected and you might even not know why.

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That's why I created the Magnetic Marriage Program in the first place.

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I think it's for couples who do know that they love each other,

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but they just can't seem to connect like they used to.

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Or honestly, like they never really even had the right tools in the first place

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because I know that they don't come from the factory.

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They're things that you have to go and get and find. And often couples don't

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even look for the tools until things have gotten in a pretty challenging place.

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The next round of the Magnetic Marriage course is not open yet,

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but the wait list is. And as has been the case in previous years, it feels fast.

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So head to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic and grab your spot on the wait list.

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Your marriage may not be as bad off as you think it is. I just think you need

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new tools. And I have those tools.

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Let's at the very least help you learn what you don't even know that you don't

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know about how to reconnect.

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And on that note, follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch,

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TikTok at virtualcouchsubstack at substack.com slash the virtual couch or sign

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up for my newsletter at tonyoverbay.com and prepare to hear a lot about relationships moving forward.

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Let's get to today's episode. Imagine this. You are drowning in responsibility.

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You feel like you're managing everything and you're holding your entire life

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together with duct tape and willpower and sheer determination.

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You're grinding it out, as the kids say. And your partner, bless their heart,

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may seem oblivious, checked out, living like they are still in their 20s.

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Or you can flip it. Maybe you feel like you are the one that's constantly failing

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and nothing that you do is ever good enough.

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So you retreat into things like video games or hobbies or anything to get through the day.

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And you're trying to make it through the day to get to the next one.

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And then hopefully the weekend will be better.

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If any of that sounds familiar, I think today's episode is going to be for you.

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I've been working on this one for quite a while. And I'm going to share a story

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about a fictional couple based on a very, very real situation.

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And they are navigating a very real struggle. And we're going to call them Sarah

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and Michael. And I truly believe, and they will now attest, that they were weeks

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away from divorce when they first reached out and we started working together.

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Sarah had become pure duty without any kind of desire, desire for life.

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She was just working herself into exhaustion within the home and outside of

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it. And what came with that is a lot of resentment.

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And her husband, Michael, had become just pure desire, but very little discipline,

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escaping into what he dubbed as freedom while his marriage was crumbling around him.

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I believe that both of them were suffering from the same wound.

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So today we're going to explore why your marriage might be this battleground

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between what you think you should do and for the sake of today.

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I know that no one likes to be should on, but we're going to use that word because

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that's the right word today.

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But things that you think that you should do, but what you actually want.

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Even if you know what you want anymore or ever really knew what you wanted,

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you just thought it would be better than it is.

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And we're going to look at how these patterns show up across all kinds of family

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traditions, spiritual traditions, cultures throughout history.

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While I don't want to say that your problem is as old as time, what if it was though?

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Because if that's the case, you're not doing it wrong. It's just,

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this is where relationships get.

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So I want to take you through the exact framework that I use with couples to

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move more from a place of combat to connection.

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And I also plan on getting pretty vulnerable about my own therapy work and why,

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even as I'm talking about duty and desire, I realized why I sat on this episode

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for a while, the word duty, I didn't like the way it made me feel.

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It kind of made my chest tighten. And what I'm discovering about discipline,

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and apparently it is a necessary thing.

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But also we'll talk about values, personal growth, and one of my favorite concepts,

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It's called Impermanence, about how accepting that nothing is permanent,

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including your current beliefs and hopes and thoughts and dreams,

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and how that might sound scary.

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That also might be the most liberating thing that you ever truly embrace.

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Let's get right to it. We'll call this the email that started it all.

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It had a subject line I couldn't ignore. It was titled, Need Help, But Skeptical.

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This is what Michael wrote. He said, Dr. Overbay, which I love that because

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I'm not a doctor, but that does get my attention.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, not a clinical psychologist.

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I don't have my doctorate in psychology, so I am not a doctor.

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So he says, Dr. Overbay, I found your podcast through a friend.

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My wife and I are struggling, and I think we need couples therapy,

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me, but I'm honestly not really sure what to expect.

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She seems really checked out lately. She's angry a lot. She won't go do things

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with her friends, even when I tell her that she can.

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We do fine financially, but she's always on me about what I spend my money on or how I spend my time.

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I feel like she's become my mom instead of my wife. She just seems so anxious

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and angry, and I want to fix this, but I also don't want to spend a bunch of

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money sitting around with somebody who just says, tell me more about that for an hour.

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I need actual tools. Can you help or should I look elsewhere? Okay.

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First of all, tell me how that made you feel, listener. Before I tell you what

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happened, let me point out what this email reveals because it is a goldmine

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for a therapist. First, notice the language.

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She seems checked out. She's angry. She won't go do things. She's always on

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me. So everything's about what she's doing wrong.

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Not really a single sentence about his own experience beyond feeling like she treats him like a child.

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Second, he says, I tell her that she can go out with her friends.

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Guys, if you're giving your wife permission to have a life, I think we've got a problem.

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That's parental language, not the language of a partnership.

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And third, he says, I want to fix this, but I also don't want to spend a lot of money.

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Translation, fix my wife quickly and cheaply so I can get back to the things

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that I want to do. Maybe here's the kicker.

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I don't want somebody to just ask me how that makes me feel.

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Michael, my friend, feelings are literally a giant part of relationships.

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And if you don't want to talk about your feelings, you're looking more for some

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sort of mechanic, not a real couples therapist.

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So I could have easily said, hey, probably not your guy and moved on or not

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responded. But something told me that Michael genuinely didn't know what he didn't know.

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And I have a strong desire to help guys learn the things they didn't know because

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I did not know the things that I did not know.

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And I'm so grateful to continually learn things that I was not aware of that

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can help me as an individual and in my relationships.

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So he didn't know what he didn't know. He's stuck in a pattern and so was his

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wife and neither could see it. So I did write back.

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And after a few email exchanges, he and Sarah agreed to work with me.

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And that's when things got interesting.

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I like to meet with each person individually first because the story you tell

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when you're alone or one-on-one with the therapist is usually closer to your

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actual experience than the performance that you might put on when your spouse

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is in the room, especially when you first meet with a therapist.

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So Sarah came in first and I could absolutely track the exhaustion before she even sat down,

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shoulders kind of tight and jaws set, eyes doing that thing where you can tell

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she's on the verge of crying, but also doesn't really know who I am and doesn't

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necessarily trust me and doesn't want to show weakness.

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And so I'd asked her one of the most basic questions, what brings you in?

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And that opened the floodgates.

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And she told me that she feels like she's holding the entire relationship together,

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their entire life together for that matter. And she thinks that Michael is oblivious.

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She said, I wake up at 5, 5.30 every morning and I pack lunches and I get the

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kids dressed and I make breakfast and then I end up dropping them off at school.

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And she said she also works full days as a project manager and she'll pick them

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up and she manages homework and she makes dinner, she does baths,

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she handles bedtime routines.

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And Michael, she did say he does work too, but when he gets home, he disconnects.

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10 minutes, maybe chucking the kids around the room, half an hour or more on

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the toilet, then turns to his phone, then video games with his clan,

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then planning for his next mountain biking trip with his buddies.

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So I asked her, what does that feel like for you? And she said,

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I feel lonely and I feel exhausted and I feel invisible.

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And then she said, one of these things that just, it sticks with you.

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She said, I feel like I'm a machine that keeps everybody running and nobody

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notices that until something breaks.

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And then she said, I can't even remember the last time that I wanted anything for myself.

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And so I brought some gentle awareness, pushed on that a little.

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And I just said, what happens when

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you even have a desire or when there is something that you want to do?

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And she said, if I have anything like that, it feels like a threat.

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And she said, especially if I hear of something that Michael wants to do, one of his desires.

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She said, when Michael suggests going out or that she should do something for

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herself or heaven forbid, when he tries to be intimate, She said she feels a wave of anger.

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How can you think of that when there are permission slips to sign and the car

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registration is overdue and sure you're going to get to it and the kitchen's

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a disaster and I haven't called my mom back in three days and her son's struggling

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in math and her daughter's the last one off the bench on her soccer team.

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If I think about myself, that feels selfish.

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And she said, yes, I struggle with perfectionism. This feels irresponsible.

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And honestly, I get mad that he even suggests wanting to do something,

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whether it's for himself or even me wanting to do something.

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Because she said, I think he wants me to say yes to me doing something so he

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won't feel guilty about all the stuff that he does for himself.

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And so I asked, what would happen if you actually took a weekend away?

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Because she had mentioned that her sister had invited her to some sort of spa retreat.

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And her response was immediate. And she almost didn't even let me finish asking

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the question. She said, how could I do that?

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It's not because of money. It's because Michael couldn't handle it.

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Because if I let myself want things, if I stop being vigilant,

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everything's going to fall apart. And she said, somebody has to be the adult.

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Somebody has to sacrifice. And at that point, she started to get really emotional.

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She said, if I'm not the responsible one, and I did not know this was where

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she was going next, she said, who am I?

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What's even my value in the home or in the relationships?

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So duty had become her entire identity. She completely severed it from any sense

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of her own joy or her own desire.

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And she'd been doing it for so long. That's just what it felt like to be her. It just was.

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And when I did ask a little bit more about intimacy, and we're not even talking

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that it has to be sex, but any kind of physical touch or cuddling or holding

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hands or something, anything, she gave a pretty bitter laugh.

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She said, that just feels like another thing on the to-do list.

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Another person who needs something from me when I don't have a thing left to give.

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She said, I can't actually remember the last time I wanted him. I just feel numb.

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And then I feel guilty for feeling numb, which makes me resent him and feel worse about myself.

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When I asked her what she resents the most, she was really clear that he still

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gets to want things, that he still has these desires and pleasures and joy,

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because that feels like a luxury that she can't afford.

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It's like he's playing while I'm drowning. And then, thank goodness for humor,

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she once said to him, I'm drowning. Why won't you even throw me a life preserver.

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And then she said he made an inappropriate joke about, oh, the thing with the

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big hole in the middle. She said, you can guess them what he said next.

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And I couldn't help myself. And I laughed, kind of came out of nowhere.

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And then she broke down and laughed too.

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And we had a really funny moment. And what I liked about that was.

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Man, that was so nice to see her have fun, even just in that moment.

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And then when she was able to gather herself a bit, I asked,

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have you ever shared moments like that with Michael?

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These kind of comical or humorous moments? And she said, oh,

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we used to, but she's like, I can't let myself do that now because then he'll

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think that he's won and then he'll back off and he won't do any of the things

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that I asked for him to do around the house.

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And I asked her if she had experience with that. And she said,

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no, but I'm sure that's what's going to happen.

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And I know that right now I could do a whole thing on projection and emotional

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maturity. And today is not that episode.

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But Sarah had become the embodiment of duty while completely shutting down any

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kind of her own desire or joy.

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And that was eating her alive from the inside.

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So Michael then comes in. Michael's energy was different.

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I thought he would be jovial and bubbly and what a lot of guys are when they

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come in to see me because he's the one who had reached out. But instead,

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he came in and he just sat back, arms crossed, very defensive before I even

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asked a question. And then it made sense why.

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The first words out of his mouth were, Sarah probably painted me as this irresponsible

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man-child who doesn't do anything around the house.

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And I just told him, hey, I'm actually interested in your experience,

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not hers. That's why we have these individual appointments.

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And he softened a little bit and he's like, so basically you're telling me yeah

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without telling me yes, which I did not play into.

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He told me that he works hard, 50 plus hours a week as a software engineer.

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But then he said, the second he walks in the door, or even as he's driving home,

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I start feeling this tension.

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And he said, it just feels like Sarah's keeping score of everything that I'm

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not doing. And I'm constantly failing.

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Like the teacher's disappointed in me. Like my mom's mad at me all over again.

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So he said, yeah, I, he retreats, he games.

00:14:08.356 --> 00:14:11.696
I did make a joke about toilet time. He said, it's definitely not a half an

00:14:11.696 --> 00:14:14.576
hour, but he does say that he's planning retreats constantly.

00:14:14.756 --> 00:14:15.656
Something to look forward to.

00:14:16.196 --> 00:14:20.256
Because he said, because at least there, I'm not being evaluated or found lacking.

00:14:20.896 --> 00:14:25.096
I asked if he viewed those things as an escape and he got defensive and he just

00:14:25.096 --> 00:14:26.916
said, no, those are things that I have to do to survive.

00:14:27.276 --> 00:14:29.776
But then his voice softened a little bit and he said, you have to understand,

00:14:30.076 --> 00:14:33.176
I used to be able to make her laugh. When we first got married, we were spontaneous.

00:14:33.396 --> 00:14:35.916
We decided at 9 p.m. to drive to the coast and watch the sunrise.

00:14:35.916 --> 00:14:38.536
And he said that we would make love in the middle of the day.

00:14:38.736 --> 00:14:42.376
She was alive. And now she's running on fumes and resentment.

00:14:42.676 --> 00:14:46.376
And that resentment is toward me. And when I asked him when that changed,

00:14:46.516 --> 00:14:50.656
he said, I think it was around the time that we had kids. And he said, I get it. Kids are hard.

00:14:50.856 --> 00:14:52.276
But he said, it's like she decided

00:14:52.276 --> 00:14:55.016
that being a good parent meant killing everything fun about yourself.

00:14:55.396 --> 00:14:59.216
And it's like she expects me to do the same. And he told me about a few weeks

00:14:59.216 --> 00:15:01.396
earlier when he'd found a babysitter. He did this on his own.

00:15:01.516 --> 00:15:04.756
He made a reservation at a restaurant that Sarah used to love and told her,

00:15:04.896 --> 00:15:06.616
keep Friday night open. And her response was,

00:15:07.107 --> 00:15:09.887
that's the same night as a school fundraiser planning meeting.

00:15:10.187 --> 00:15:11.427
You could have looked at the calendar.

00:15:11.947 --> 00:15:15.367
And he said, that's a meeting that she could have skipped. And I asked him,

00:15:15.467 --> 00:15:17.687
okay, what was that like for you? Because you put in this effort and you're

00:15:17.687 --> 00:15:19.367
trying and his voice cracked.

00:15:19.527 --> 00:15:21.927
And he said, she doesn't even want to be with me anymore. I'm just the guy who

00:15:21.927 --> 00:15:24.907
helps pay the mortgage. And occasionally she wants me to discipline the kids.

00:15:25.287 --> 00:15:29.047
I don't even feel like I'm her husband. I'm a roommate that she's constantly disappointed in.

00:15:29.567 --> 00:15:32.787
And then when we talked a little bit about intimacy, he got really uncomfortable,

00:15:32.787 --> 00:15:34.747
but honest. He said, we haven't had sex in months.

00:15:34.947 --> 00:15:38.027
Before that, it was maybe once a month. It always felt like she was doing me

00:15:38.027 --> 00:15:40.307
a favor and then just going through the motions. And he said,

00:15:40.427 --> 00:15:44.687
I want to say that I'd rather have nothing than that because at least nothing is being honest.

00:15:44.867 --> 00:15:45.687
But then he said, but then I

00:15:45.687 --> 00:15:49.387
go with nothing and I just beat myself up and think what's wrong with me.

00:15:49.847 --> 00:15:53.627
And I asked what he thought Sarah might say about why sex had stopped.

00:15:53.767 --> 00:15:56.547
He said, she'll say that she's too tired and too stressed and too much on her

00:15:56.547 --> 00:15:58.867
mind and that the kids have been pawing at her all day.

00:15:59.047 --> 00:16:01.987
And then he paused. He said, here's the thing. She's choosing to be that stressed.

00:16:02.327 --> 00:16:04.787
I made a little note on that one. I knew we'd be revisiting that.

00:16:05.067 --> 00:16:08.947
And then he continued, she's choosing to take on every single responsibility to refuse help.

00:16:09.007 --> 00:16:11.287
And then she resents everybody for not reading her mind.

00:16:11.367 --> 00:16:17.707
And he told me that he often offers to help and to do more and asks, what can he do to help?

00:16:17.827 --> 00:16:20.807
And then he said that she'll sigh like he was making it worse by asking.

00:16:21.207 --> 00:16:24.607
I've seen this dynamic plenty where one partner says, just tell me what I can

00:16:24.607 --> 00:16:26.447
do to help. And it's the right mouth.

00:16:27.007 --> 00:16:30.487
It sounds helpful, but often it puts the mental load right back onto the other

00:16:30.487 --> 00:16:35.507
person who is taking care of the things to now have to manage this person as well.

00:16:35.627 --> 00:16:37.867
So over time, he said, I just stopped trying to connect.

00:16:38.047 --> 00:16:42.627
Now, just do my thing, work and game and ride and try to do things with friends.

00:16:42.867 --> 00:16:44.407
At least that's where I feel competent.

00:16:44.747 --> 00:16:47.727
And I did take a dip back into feelings. What does that feel like?

00:16:48.367 --> 00:16:53.227
And he did a nice job. He said, lonely. I miss my wife, but I have no idea how

00:16:53.227 --> 00:16:56.387
to reach her when she's built up this wall of duties and responsibilities around herself.

00:16:56.747 --> 00:17:00.767
And then with a little bit of edge, he said, pardon me, stop trying because I am angry.

00:17:00.947 --> 00:17:04.627
She's chosen martyrdom over me and over us, and I can't compete with her need

00:17:04.627 --> 00:17:06.507
to be the perpetual victim of her own life.

00:17:07.107 --> 00:17:11.187
And I brought awareness to that language that did feel a bit harsh and he got

00:17:11.187 --> 00:17:13.187
defensive. Well, maybe that's how I feel.

00:17:13.587 --> 00:17:18.507
And the alternative becoming like her, he said, grinding through joyless duty every day.

00:17:18.747 --> 00:17:22.367
He said to me, that's death. So when I asked what he was afraid would happen,

00:17:22.567 --> 00:17:24.807
if he actually committed to some of the structure that Sarah wanted,

00:17:25.007 --> 00:17:28.387
he got really uncomfortable. He said, I'll lose my mind. I'll disappear.

00:17:28.687 --> 00:17:32.747
I'll just become another cog in this machine of her version of what family life is.

00:17:33.227 --> 00:17:36.867
Everything that I love about myself, spontaneity and adventure and playfulness,

00:17:37.227 --> 00:17:38.767
I think it will get ground down into nothing.

00:17:39.167 --> 00:17:42.027
And he said, Sarah's already lost those parts of herself. I don't want to lose

00:17:42.027 --> 00:17:43.547
them in me too. That's a lot.

00:17:43.927 --> 00:17:48.207
Michael was protecting his desire for joy and adventure by refusing anything to do with duty.

00:17:48.727 --> 00:17:54.187
And Sarah was protecting her duty by not allowing herself anything to do with desire or joy.

00:17:54.327 --> 00:17:57.667
And both of them were starving, I think, for what the other person had,

00:17:57.787 --> 00:18:01.527
but they definitely weren't aware of it. So when I brought them in together, I had a brief fantasy.

00:18:01.827 --> 00:18:05.427
What if they both just said, you know what? We've been binging on your podcast. We get it now.

00:18:05.807 --> 00:18:09.687
We are fluent in four pillars of connected conversation. We just wanted to pay you to say thanks.

00:18:10.147 --> 00:18:13.347
That is not what happened. Within just a few seconds of me trying to introduce

00:18:13.347 --> 00:18:16.527
a framework of how to communicate, they were already interrupting each other

00:18:16.527 --> 00:18:18.787
and they were in their corners and their arms were folded and they were ready

00:18:18.787 --> 00:18:20.787
for battle and they were sitting on opposite sides of the couch.

00:18:20.967 --> 00:18:24.667
Yes, the marriage therapist does look at where you sit. And I stopped them and

00:18:24.667 --> 00:18:25.987
I pointed out what had just happened.

00:18:26.547 --> 00:18:30.187
That Sarah was so desperate to be heard and Michael not to be vilified and both

00:18:30.187 --> 00:18:33.307
were so locked into that pattern that they couldn't even listen to me introduce

00:18:33.307 --> 00:18:34.867
a concept that might help them.

00:18:35.482 --> 00:18:39.262
And then Sarah launches right in. I feel like I'm the only adult in the relationship.

00:18:39.442 --> 00:18:41.562
I manage everything. The kids schedules, the bills, the house.

00:18:41.662 --> 00:18:42.642
And I also have a full-time job.

00:18:42.802 --> 00:18:46.002
And Michael comes home and just wants to relax and play video games for hours

00:18:46.002 --> 00:18:48.542
and go mountain biking. And I'm drowning in responsibility.

00:18:48.942 --> 00:18:53.022
And Michael just immediately reacted. She makes it sound like I'm a deadbeat.

00:18:53.182 --> 00:18:55.642
I work 50 plus hours a week. But the second I walk in the door,

00:18:55.742 --> 00:18:58.042
here's your list. Do this. Fix that. Why didn't you remember this?

00:18:58.142 --> 00:18:59.942
I feel like I'm just another item on our to-do list.

00:19:00.302 --> 00:19:03.802
And then he does what a lot of guys, if I'm just going gender stereotype, do.

00:19:04.142 --> 00:19:07.782
He went right to sex. faster than usually a first joint session would.

00:19:07.882 --> 00:19:10.042
And we haven't had sex in months and we don't laugh anymore.

00:19:10.042 --> 00:19:12.962
And he said, I married a woman I loved, not a hall monitor.

00:19:13.122 --> 00:19:17.282
The classic division, it was so clear that Sarah had just completely identified

00:19:17.282 --> 00:19:21.362
with duty and her entire self-worth was tied to being the responsible one.

00:19:21.602 --> 00:19:25.462
She was screaming for him to acknowledge that he is not responsible.

00:19:26.102 --> 00:19:30.982
Her genuine desires for things like rest and playfulness and intimacy and spontaneity,

00:19:31.102 --> 00:19:34.422
they've been suppressed so long that I don't think she could remember what it

00:19:34.422 --> 00:19:36.802
even felt like to be alive and free.

00:19:37.022 --> 00:19:40.722
I believe that she truly identified that that is not something that even happens

00:19:40.722 --> 00:19:42.042
when you're married and have kids.

00:19:42.402 --> 00:19:47.102
Michael had built his whole life around escaping duty and structure because

00:19:47.102 --> 00:19:48.142
to him, it felt like death.

00:19:48.482 --> 00:19:52.542
And his genuine need for structure and purpose and to contribute,

00:19:52.822 --> 00:19:57.702
it was buried so far under rebellion against Sarah's demands that even when

00:19:57.702 --> 00:20:00.322
he did help around the house, it was with resentment.

00:20:00.562 --> 00:20:03.682
Like he was doing time. He wasn't building a life together.

00:20:04.344 --> 00:20:08.344
And both had these rehearsed speeches. It's what I call the greatest hits.

00:20:08.624 --> 00:20:12.144
These familiar patterns, they fall into almost this flat affect.

00:20:12.484 --> 00:20:16.724
And the same dance, attack and defend and withdraw and go apart for a day or two.

00:20:16.864 --> 00:20:18.924
And then somebody finally pokes their head out of the bunker and,

00:20:19.344 --> 00:20:21.324
hey, I'm sorry, are we okay?

00:20:21.604 --> 00:20:24.444
And then, yeah, we're good. And then they're good. But that's not good.

00:20:24.524 --> 00:20:26.044
That is the absence of bad.

00:20:26.244 --> 00:20:29.424
And at this point, they can't tell the difference. It's just the dance.

00:20:29.584 --> 00:20:33.364
It's how they co-regulate. So we identified a real core wound.

00:20:33.944 --> 00:20:39.044
Sarah was able to eventually express that she secretly despised Michael for having any desire.

00:20:39.184 --> 00:20:43.264
She was seeing that his desires as childish and selfish, and that her duty then

00:20:43.264 --> 00:20:46.604
had become this joyless obligation, and it was just completely severed from

00:20:46.604 --> 00:20:49.284
any kind of wanting. She couldn't even allow herself to want.

00:20:50.104 --> 00:20:53.064
And Michael acknowledged that he resented Sarah for her martyrdom.

00:20:53.164 --> 00:20:55.284
And that was a difficult conversation.

00:20:55.644 --> 00:20:59.884
His pursuit for desire, gaming, biking, it left him also feeling hollow.

00:21:00.264 --> 00:21:04.244
And I thought that was a really important point because Sarah just assumed that

00:21:04.244 --> 00:21:05.584
that was him living his best life.

00:21:05.684 --> 00:21:09.684
But he said it was hollow because it was his desire against something,

00:21:09.924 --> 00:21:11.324
not a desire towards something.

00:21:11.684 --> 00:21:15.264
That his pleasures had become escapes, not a way to fill his battery,

00:21:15.484 --> 00:21:16.424
not genuine fulfillment.

00:21:17.004 --> 00:21:21.104
And then Sarah's wound, if I let myself want things, if I relax my grip on responsibility,

00:21:21.284 --> 00:21:25.044
everything falls apart, even though she hadn't allowed that to even be a thing.

00:21:25.364 --> 00:21:28.964
So she said, desire feels dangerous, duty feels safe, even if it's killing me.

00:21:29.064 --> 00:21:31.684
And Michael's wound, if I submit to duty and structure, I'm going to lose myself

00:21:31.684 --> 00:21:32.664
and I'm going to become a robot.

00:21:33.004 --> 00:21:35.584
Freedom and desire are the only things that are keeping him alive,

00:21:35.584 --> 00:21:38.444
even if he feels like he's becoming more lonely.

00:21:38.684 --> 00:21:42.724
And as a couples therapist, one of the worst forms of loneliness is being lonely

00:21:42.724 --> 00:21:44.004
within your relationship.

00:21:44.593 --> 00:21:48.853
So here's where things get really interesting. And I'm grateful that you've

00:21:48.853 --> 00:21:52.513
made it this far in the podcast, because I want to connect Sarah and Michael's

00:21:52.513 --> 00:21:57.013
story to something bigger, because I think their struggle is actually the story of so many marriages.

00:21:57.433 --> 00:22:00.413
And this is what prompted me to want to do this episode. I was listening to

00:22:00.413 --> 00:22:02.273
an interview recently with an author named Heidi White.

00:22:02.413 --> 00:22:06.033
She was on a podcast from a guy named Jonathan Pajot.

00:22:06.213 --> 00:22:09.873
It's called The Symbolic World. And I've listened to a handful of his episodes.

00:22:09.953 --> 00:22:14.273
And if you don't know who he is, he's a French-Canadian Orthodox icon carver, an artist.

00:22:14.593 --> 00:22:18.613
And this incredibly thoughtful guy who explores symbolism and meaning and patterns

00:22:18.613 --> 00:22:23.873
and stories and art and culture, he often looks at how the same archetypal narratives

00:22:23.873 --> 00:22:26.353
keep showing up across different traditions and time periods.

00:22:26.973 --> 00:22:30.513
Heidi was on a show talking about a new book of hers called The Divided Soul.

00:22:31.013 --> 00:22:35.213
And something that she said, I don't even feel bad being dramatic.

00:22:35.213 --> 00:22:37.673
It stopped me in my tracks, had me write it down.

00:22:37.813 --> 00:22:41.393
And I listened to it a few times over. And I went and got the transcript of

00:22:41.393 --> 00:22:44.293
the podcast interview. But she talks about what she calls the fundamental wound

00:22:44.293 --> 00:22:47.853
of human existence, and it's this division between duty and desire.

00:22:48.413 --> 00:22:52.693
And what was really interesting, she uses the story of Adam and Eve from the

00:22:52.693 --> 00:22:54.213
Garden of Eden to illustrate this concept.

00:22:54.333 --> 00:22:58.293
Now, before anybody tunes out, because I'm referencing a biblical story,

00:22:58.493 --> 00:23:01.793
let me explain how I want to use this, because I thought Heidi did a nice job.

00:23:01.933 --> 00:23:03.613
I want to take this story as my muse.

00:23:04.013 --> 00:23:08.413
And when I say muse, I mean it in the sense of inspiration or a starting point

00:23:08.413 --> 00:23:11.973
for contemplation, because it's the spark that gets us thinking about something deeper.

00:23:11.973 --> 00:23:15.873
So, whether you believe literally in the story of Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark

00:23:15.873 --> 00:23:19.153
or Jesus turning water into wine, whether you believe them as literal historical

00:23:19.153 --> 00:23:22.813
events or as metaphorical narratives or not at all, honestly,

00:23:22.893 --> 00:23:24.413
it doesn't matter for what I'm about to share.

00:23:24.993 --> 00:23:27.093
And here's what I find so fascinating.

00:23:27.669 --> 00:23:31.029
When you step back and look at the similarities in so many stories that are

00:23:31.029 --> 00:23:36.369
found in the Bible, also in other scriptural texts, in a variety of spiritual

00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:40.569
traditions across cultures, in ancient mythology, you start to see patterns.

00:23:40.829 --> 00:23:44.689
And the same themes emerge when we call these patterns archetypes,

00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:48.649
these universal symbols and these narrative structures that appear across human

00:23:48.649 --> 00:23:50.389
culture and throughout history.

00:23:51.189 --> 00:23:55.309
The psychologist Carl Jung talked extensively about archetypes and these recurring

00:23:55.309 --> 00:23:59.249
characters, these images and story patterns that seem to be baked into the human psyche.

00:23:59.629 --> 00:24:03.409
Things like the hero's journey, the great flood, the fall from paradise,

00:24:03.649 --> 00:24:07.129
the dying and rising god, the trickster, the wise old man.

00:24:07.449 --> 00:24:11.469
He says that these aren't accidents. They're not just different cultures randomly

00:24:11.469 --> 00:24:12.649
coming up with the same stories.

00:24:13.009 --> 00:24:16.969
The point might be that these patterns appear in cultures that are separated

00:24:16.969 --> 00:24:21.469
by vast distances and thousands of years who had no contact with each other.

00:24:21.609 --> 00:24:24.989
The ancient Greeks weren't borrowing from the Sumerians, who weren't borrowing

00:24:24.989 --> 00:24:27.829
from the indigenous Americans, who weren't borrowing from the Hindus,

00:24:27.869 --> 00:24:32.569
but they're all telling versions of the same fundamental stories.

00:24:33.197 --> 00:24:37.097
And what that suggests is that these narratives are tapping into something universal

00:24:37.097 --> 00:24:40.997
about human psychology and about the human experience, what Carl Jung would

00:24:40.997 --> 00:24:42.557
call the collective unconscious.

00:24:42.777 --> 00:24:46.457
Now, depending on your belief system, honestly, this observation might land

00:24:46.457 --> 00:24:48.037
differently for every one of you.

00:24:48.157 --> 00:24:51.317
For some of my more Christian faith-based listeners, you might think,

00:24:51.537 --> 00:24:54.457
okay, well, maybe all these cultures separated by time and space,

00:24:54.497 --> 00:24:56.957
we're all trying to communicate about God.

00:24:57.177 --> 00:25:01.597
Maybe they're all referring to your God just through different cultural lenses and language.

00:25:02.297 --> 00:25:05.517
Maybe the universal nature of these stories is evidence of a universal truth

00:25:05.517 --> 00:25:08.357
that different people intuited or that they were given access to,

00:25:08.497 --> 00:25:09.917
and then it came through in the language

00:25:09.917 --> 00:25:13.277
or the culture or the symbols and stories that they had access to.

00:25:13.717 --> 00:25:18.037
Or maybe when you hear about this concept of people who knew nothing of each

00:25:18.037 --> 00:25:22.017
other coming up with very remarkably similar stories to try and make sense of

00:25:22.017 --> 00:25:26.037
things like suffering and death and rebirth and chaos and wisdom and discomfort

00:25:26.037 --> 00:25:27.597
and uncertainty and the human condition,

00:25:27.877 --> 00:25:30.857
for some, maybe it causes you to rethink your own belief system.

00:25:30.857 --> 00:25:34.517
And maybe it raises questions about whether anybody has the complete picture

00:25:34.517 --> 00:25:37.137
or whether we're all holding different pieces of the same puzzle.

00:25:37.277 --> 00:25:42.317
I work with so many people navigating faith journey, faith crisis from high demand religion.

00:25:42.317 --> 00:25:46.717
For some people, this realization does start to trigger a faith crisis or even

00:25:46.717 --> 00:25:50.357
an existential crisis. And it's why so many people don't feel comfortable looking

00:25:50.357 --> 00:25:54.277
outside of their own faith community to read those texts or those narratives

00:25:54.277 --> 00:25:55.797
because it feels threatening.

00:25:56.317 --> 00:25:59.797
Because if other cultures have flood stories, dying and rising God narratives,

00:25:59.957 --> 00:26:03.217
and heroes journeys that predate or exist independently of my tradition,

00:26:03.417 --> 00:26:05.077
what does that mean about what I've been taught?

00:26:05.657 --> 00:26:09.317
And does that make my story any less special or less true or less meaningful?

00:26:09.537 --> 00:26:13.797
I think that so much of this gets into the work that I love doing around emotional immaturity.

00:26:14.237 --> 00:26:17.697
That all or nothing or black or white thinking. That if someone else has a different

00:26:17.697 --> 00:26:19.037
experience or story than mine,

00:26:19.137 --> 00:26:21.437
then that must mean that they think theirs is right and mine is wrong.

00:26:22.331 --> 00:26:27.571
That's not emotionally mature. What if we can have different opinions and still

00:26:27.571 --> 00:26:29.331
maintain connection with others?

00:26:29.651 --> 00:26:32.771
And it doesn't have to be yours is right and mine is wrong.

00:26:32.971 --> 00:26:37.051
And I want to acknowledge that this causes people to have a lot of discomfort

00:26:37.051 --> 00:26:39.431
because this is part of the human experience.

00:26:39.711 --> 00:26:43.571
It can be deeply unsettling to realize that what you thought was unique might

00:26:43.571 --> 00:26:44.711
be part of a larger pattern.

00:26:44.931 --> 00:26:49.151
But here's what I've witnessed in my own life and in the lives of so many clients.

00:26:49.151 --> 00:26:52.791
For others, this realization actually can soften them up.

00:26:53.071 --> 00:26:56.111
It opens them up. And instead of creating crisis, or maybe better said,

00:26:56.251 --> 00:27:00.191
after they sit through the crisis and realize the world still spins and they're

00:27:00.191 --> 00:27:05.611
okay, it can create more curiosity, more genuine humility about the human experience.

00:27:05.811 --> 00:27:09.291
And it can allow people to more easily forgive themselves and others.

00:27:09.899 --> 00:27:13.039
Because then they're able to embrace not only the very present moment,

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:17.639
but whatever their belief system is right there, right now, while also accepting

00:27:17.639 --> 00:27:23.059
that it could most likely grow and shift and move and adapt as they continue through life.

00:27:23.199 --> 00:27:26.639
Because every moment through life is the very first time that they've ever been them.

00:27:27.179 --> 00:27:30.919
So check that out. Now I'm learning this. Now my thoughts are this.

00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.279
And I'm here to personally testify to you that this has been one of the most

00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.419
beautiful and liberating concepts that I never had a clue that I didn't know

00:27:38.419 --> 00:27:41.739
about. because it leads me to want to know what else I don't know.

00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.419
And I want to know what other people's experiences are and what are these archetypes

00:27:45.419 --> 00:27:46.219
and what are these stories.

00:27:46.439 --> 00:27:52.079
And over time, it's not scary. It's exciting because this is my own hero's journey.

00:27:52.239 --> 00:27:55.299
The journey of discovering that I don't have to have everything figured out,

00:27:55.499 --> 00:27:58.259
that I don't have to defend my beliefs against every single challenge.

00:27:58.399 --> 00:28:01.479
And if somebody else has a different opinion, it doesn't mean that mine's wrong

00:28:01.479 --> 00:28:02.499
and that theirs is right.

00:28:02.779 --> 00:28:05.879
Growth and change aren't threats to my faith or my identity.

00:28:05.879 --> 00:28:10.659
They're actually evidence that I'm alive and I'm engaged in life and that I'm paying attention.

00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:14.359
I want to talk about this concept of impermanence. It's one of the most fascinating,

00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:17.739
scary, and then liberating concepts that I've ever embraced.

00:28:18.439 --> 00:28:21.579
Impermanence is the recognition that everything, literally everything,

00:28:21.579 --> 00:28:25.739
is constantly changing, that nothing is fixed, that nothing is permanent,

00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.979
not our bodies, not our thoughts, not our emotions, not our relationships,

00:28:29.159 --> 00:28:32.159
not our beliefs, or our understanding of truth.

00:28:32.379 --> 00:28:36.499
And I know, because I've been there, that for most people, at first,

00:28:36.579 --> 00:28:37.459
that sounds terrifying.

00:28:37.659 --> 00:28:41.579
It can even be accused of being nihilistic because if nothing's permanent,

00:28:41.739 --> 00:28:45.199
well, then what can we count on? And what do we build our lives on? But here's the paradox.

00:28:45.379 --> 00:28:50.099
When you truly embrace impermanence, it becomes profoundly healing because so

00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:53.379
much of our suffering comes from trying to make things permanent that can't be.

00:28:53.956 --> 00:28:56.896
And we cling to these beliefs that we think we have to defend forever.

00:28:57.076 --> 00:28:59.856
We hold on to these versions of ourselves that no longer serve us.

00:28:59.936 --> 00:29:04.436
And we stay in rigid positions because we're so afraid that changing our mind

00:29:04.436 --> 00:29:05.676
means that we were wrong.

00:29:06.136 --> 00:29:10.936
But we were just being in that moment based on how we felt and the things that we knew.

00:29:11.236 --> 00:29:15.056
We knew what we knew because that's what we knew. So that feeling of being wrong

00:29:15.056 --> 00:29:18.876
to the emotionally immature feels like death, like abandonment.

00:29:19.096 --> 00:29:21.696
But what if changing your mind isn't death? What if it's growth?

00:29:21.696 --> 00:29:25.156
What if your belief system evolving isn't betrayal, it's actual maturity?

00:29:25.416 --> 00:29:28.496
And what if you could hold your current understanding with both seriousness

00:29:28.496 --> 00:29:33.856
and lightness, knowing it matters deeply right now while also knowing it's not the final word?

00:29:34.116 --> 00:29:37.276
Impermanence teaches us that the problem isn't change because change is inevitable.

00:29:37.756 --> 00:29:41.476
Everything is changing. The problem is our resistance to change.

00:29:41.616 --> 00:29:43.776
That's what causes anxiety. That's what causes depression.

00:29:44.076 --> 00:29:46.516
I mean, there's chemical challenges with that as well. Don't get me wrong.

00:29:46.516 --> 00:29:50.316
But our desperate clinging to certainty in an uncertain world,

00:29:50.336 --> 00:29:55.216
our need to be right instead of curious, that's what causes a lot of stress and anxiety.

00:29:55.636 --> 00:29:59.196
So now when Sarah realized that her rigid sense of duty wasn't permanent,

00:29:59.756 --> 00:30:03.856
that she could actually accept that that is how she has felt and how she has

00:30:03.856 --> 00:30:07.736
shown up until she doesn't anymore and then reconnect with desire,

00:30:07.736 --> 00:30:09.856
it was initially terrifying.

00:30:10.216 --> 00:30:14.936
And you can see why she desperately clung to this identity of who she felt she

00:30:14.936 --> 00:30:18.096
needed to be. If I'm not the responsible one holding everything together,

00:30:18.096 --> 00:30:20.336
who am I and what will happen to the family?

00:30:21.125 --> 00:30:25.645
What if the family still survives? By embracing this concept of impermanence

00:30:25.645 --> 00:30:28.765
and allowing herself to change, to grow, to become somebody who could hold both

00:30:28.765 --> 00:30:31.665
duty and desire, that's part of what freed her.

00:30:31.885 --> 00:30:34.905
And when Michael accepted that his rebellion against structure wasn't really

00:30:34.905 --> 00:30:39.365
doing him a lot of favors either, he could start to evolve and embrace a little

00:30:39.365 --> 00:30:41.725
bit of discipline without feeling like he was losing himself.

00:30:41.865 --> 00:30:44.465
So much of this is, I'm afraid of this thing that I've never even done.

00:30:44.785 --> 00:30:48.585
So I build up this narrative in the story that that is going to cause a certain

00:30:48.585 --> 00:30:50.205
thing, but I've never even tried it.

00:30:50.505 --> 00:30:53.805
He could start to practice some of this discipline without losing himself.

00:30:53.965 --> 00:30:55.805
It felt like if he did that, he was going to give up his identity.

00:30:56.684 --> 00:31:00.564
Instead of evolving, changing. For him, embracing that impermanence,

00:31:00.704 --> 00:31:03.344
allowing himself to be more of this integrated version of himself,

00:31:03.524 --> 00:31:07.364
that's actually what allowed him to reconnect with himself and allowed him to

00:31:07.364 --> 00:31:08.304
show up better for Sarah.

00:31:08.824 --> 00:31:14.664
We are all trying to figure out things that do not make sense because we cannot predict the future.

00:31:15.064 --> 00:31:18.564
The brain is a prediction engine. It desperately wants to, and we sure don't

00:31:18.564 --> 00:31:20.664
like discomfort and we want certainty.

00:31:20.964 --> 00:31:25.084
And those are all fighting against each other. We're trying to create meaning

00:31:25.084 --> 00:31:27.344
in a world that often feels chaotic and uncertain.

00:31:27.524 --> 00:31:32.644
And maybe, just maybe, the healthiest approach isn't to lock down one interpretation

00:31:32.644 --> 00:31:36.264
and then defend it against all others and try to have confirmation bias and

00:31:36.264 --> 00:31:40.604
find all these reasons and conspiracy theories of why I have to be right.

00:31:40.604 --> 00:31:44.824
What if the goal was to hold our current understanding with both commitment,

00:31:44.824 --> 00:31:48.324
but also humility to say, hey, this is what I believe right now,

00:31:48.464 --> 00:31:52.124
but I am open to the things that I don't know that I don't know.

00:31:52.284 --> 00:31:57.084
This matters to me right now. It matters deeply, but I'm open to learning more. I'm open to being wrong.

00:31:57.204 --> 00:32:02.044
And I don't even like the concepts in this setting of right and wrong because

00:32:02.044 --> 00:32:06.364
I'm just showing up, thinking and feeling and believing the things I do until

00:32:06.364 --> 00:32:08.104
maybe I don't any longer.

00:32:08.404 --> 00:32:10.964
That's being open to growth. That's not weakness. That's wisdom.

00:32:11.124 --> 00:32:12.024
That's the hero's journey.

00:32:12.184 --> 00:32:14.324
That's what all these stories across all these traditions, I think,

00:32:14.404 --> 00:32:18.144
are trying to teach us. Okay, back to the podcast. Somebody help me down off my soapbox.

00:32:18.424 --> 00:32:21.644
Tell me off. I think I was having a moment. Back to the story of the Garden of Eden.

00:32:22.503 --> 00:32:26.263
So it's one of these archetypal narratives and whether it happened exactly as

00:32:26.263 --> 00:32:28.563
written or whether it's a profound metaphor for the human condition,

00:32:28.803 --> 00:32:31.523
it contains something pretty true about our experience.

00:32:31.763 --> 00:32:34.303
Here's what Heidi White argues using this story as her foundation.

00:32:34.603 --> 00:32:38.843
She said, before the fall in Eden narrative, what Adam and Eve wanted to do

00:32:38.843 --> 00:32:40.803
and what they should do were perfectly aligned.

00:32:40.963 --> 00:32:43.683
Duty and desire were unified. And all of a sudden I'm listening.

00:32:43.923 --> 00:32:47.383
I'm thinking, okay, tell me more. She said, they were given commandments,

00:32:47.603 --> 00:32:51.043
be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, take dominion over all the creation,

00:32:51.183 --> 00:32:53.643
eat from any trees of the garden.

00:32:54.003 --> 00:32:58.243
Not that one, but everything else. And all these commandments were desirable to them.

00:32:58.423 --> 00:33:01.703
They wanted what they should do, and they should do what they wanted.

00:33:01.963 --> 00:33:03.943
There wasn't a division. How fascinating.

00:33:04.483 --> 00:33:08.643
But then the character of the serpent comes in and does something brilliant and devastating.

00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:14.230
He creates a false perception that fulfilling their duty, staying away from

00:33:14.230 --> 00:33:18.430
that one tree, actually is going to prevent the fulfillment of your desire.

00:33:18.690 --> 00:33:24.790
He makes them believe that what they want and what they should do are actually opposed to each other.

00:33:25.070 --> 00:33:28.070
Kind of putting this in a different frame because I wanted to understand this

00:33:28.070 --> 00:33:30.830
so desperately because it just felt like something was there.

00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:34.590
The serpent's trick isn't to make them do something they don't want to do.

00:33:35.210 --> 00:33:38.810
The trick was to convince them that the boundary, the one limitation placed

00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:41.990
on them, is preventing them from getting what they actually desire.

00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:46.990
He reframes the commandment from a loving protection into this repressive restriction.

00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:50.230
He takes something that was actually aligned with their best interest and then

00:33:50.230 --> 00:33:52.610
makes it seem like it's working against their best interest.

00:33:53.290 --> 00:33:56.430
Or think of it this way. Before the serpent shows up, Adam and Eve experience

00:33:56.430 --> 00:33:59.130
their one limitation is just part of a larger freedom.

00:33:59.290 --> 00:34:02.590
It just is. They have an entire garden of delights, trees to enjoy,

00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:05.970
fruit to eat, and meaningful work to do. and they have this intimate connection

00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:07.930
with each other and with their dad, with God.

00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:12.330
And then there's one tree that you can't eat from. But it wasn't experience

00:34:12.330 --> 00:34:15.450
as deprivation, just was. It was part of the fabric of their reality.

00:34:15.770 --> 00:34:19.010
But then the serpent narrows their focus about that tree.

00:34:19.410 --> 00:34:22.990
Now we need to focus entirely on what you can't have, the forbidden other,

00:34:23.390 --> 00:34:26.630
and convinces them that actually the thing you can't have, that one restriction,

00:34:26.990 --> 00:34:30.890
turns out that's the key to happiness. I cannot believe the dad is keeping that

00:34:30.890 --> 00:34:32.530
from you. What's up with that, right? Right.

00:34:32.874 --> 00:34:36.654
Suddenly, everything that they have becomes invisible, and the one thing they

00:34:36.654 --> 00:34:38.154
don't becomes everything.

00:34:38.614 --> 00:34:42.474
And I thought of some modern examples. Imagine somebody who commits to their marriage vows.

00:34:42.634 --> 00:34:45.374
They've chosen monogamy and commitment and faithfulness. And for a while,

00:34:45.494 --> 00:34:47.854
that commitment, that is totally aligned with what they want,

00:34:47.914 --> 00:34:51.294
because they want this deep intimacy and trust and this life built together

00:34:51.294 --> 00:34:54.214
and these shared experiences, but they grow apart.

00:34:54.574 --> 00:34:58.694
Then they meet somebody at work, gives them attention, makes them feel exciting and new again.

00:34:58.854 --> 00:35:01.794
And then here comes the serpent's voice. Because, hey, your commitment to your

00:35:01.794 --> 00:35:03.934
marriage actually is preventing you from being happy.

00:35:04.214 --> 00:35:06.774
Real fulfillment would come from following this desire.

00:35:07.274 --> 00:35:08.614
Staying faithful, that's just

00:35:08.614 --> 00:35:11.534
a rule holding you back from what you really want. So that's fascinating.

00:35:11.694 --> 00:35:15.374
The trick is the false dichotomy. The person starts to believe that their commitment,

00:35:15.694 --> 00:35:18.854
duty, and their happiness, desire, are opposed.

00:35:19.294 --> 00:35:24.654
When in reality, the momentary attraction, what if that's counterfeit of what they actually desire?

00:35:24.854 --> 00:35:28.434
Which is a deep, lasting intimacy that can only come through commitment.

00:35:28.994 --> 00:35:33.414
And I know as a practicing couples therapist that works with a lot of people

00:35:33.414 --> 00:35:38.054
that are going through divorce, that there is a time and a place we can talk

00:35:38.054 --> 00:35:39.854
about capacity where someone,

00:35:40.294 --> 00:35:43.194
because of all the things that they bring into the relationship,

00:35:43.514 --> 00:35:47.914
there might be a limit or a capacity issue where they aren't even aware of the

00:35:47.914 --> 00:35:50.794
things they're not even aware of trying to show up different in a marriage.

00:35:50.794 --> 00:35:56.574
Right now, I want to explain this process or this concept. Let me give you another example.

00:35:56.894 --> 00:35:59.894
Because take somebody who is trying to get healthy and they commit to a nutrition

00:35:59.894 --> 00:36:02.654
plan and exercise and they're going to move their body regularly.

00:36:03.054 --> 00:36:05.674
That's their duty to themselves. And it's aligned with their desire to feel

00:36:05.674 --> 00:36:09.334
good because when they have energy and they eat well and they get in better

00:36:09.334 --> 00:36:13.554
shape, now they're going to be around for their kids and their grandkids.

00:36:14.590 --> 00:36:17.890
Here comes the serpent's voice when they're stressed. You know that cookie?

00:36:18.230 --> 00:36:22.870
Actually, that's what you want. So your discipline is preventing you from comfort and pleasure.

00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:26.010
Real self-care would mean giving yourself what you want right now.

00:36:26.190 --> 00:36:29.670
And suddenly, the boundary they set for themselves, which was actually in service

00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:33.350
of their deeper values, if I eat right and I exercise, I do feel better,

00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:35.310
but now it feels like oppression.

00:36:35.610 --> 00:36:39.070
They're not experiencing this as, I'm choosing not to eat the cookie because

00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:42.370
I value how I feel when I eat well. And if I start eating one cookie,

00:36:42.590 --> 00:36:46.770
I'm eating the entire sleeve or box of Girl Scout cookies, hypothetically, thin mint.

00:36:47.090 --> 00:36:50.910
They're experiencing stupid diets keeping me from what would really make me happy.

00:36:51.330 --> 00:36:54.990
Now, back to another example. A parent sets boundaries with their teenager.

00:36:55.310 --> 00:37:00.390
Curfew, screen time limits, expectations around homework and chores and things like that.

00:37:00.490 --> 00:37:03.470
These boundaries are duties that the parent has taken on in service of what

00:37:03.470 --> 00:37:04.690
they desire for their child.

00:37:05.030 --> 00:37:08.030
Safety and healthy development and future opportunities and success.

00:37:08.030 --> 00:37:11.210
The teenager though experiences it as restriction and

00:37:11.210 --> 00:37:14.190
then the parent starts to internalize that and i felt this

00:37:14.190 --> 00:37:17.410
one our kids are now adults but man this one i almost

00:37:17.410 --> 00:37:20.350
hesitated to write because it's coming from a place of i'm

00:37:20.350 --> 00:37:24.350
noticing some feelings of guilt because here comes the serpent's voice hey your

00:37:24.350 --> 00:37:27.030
rules kind of making your kid miserable they'd be happier if you just let them

00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:30.990
do whatever they want and then being a good parent means being their friend

00:37:30.990 --> 00:37:34.210
and not their jailer and then the parent starts to believe that their duty of

00:37:34.210 --> 00:37:37.690
trying to maintain boundaries as opposed to their desire of having a happy,

00:37:37.830 --> 00:37:38.990
connected relationship with their kid.

00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:45.210
And this is one I know I didn't know because I was afraid to put it in play at times.

00:37:45.350 --> 00:37:50.030
I worried that if I held a boundary, then it was this all or nothing black and

00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:52.490
white thing where then now my kid will not like me forever.

00:37:53.309 --> 00:37:57.889
When in reality, the boundaries are essential to the child's well-being and

00:37:57.889 --> 00:37:59.489
actually to the long-term relationship.

00:38:00.189 --> 00:38:03.089
Or I thought a lot about somebody who's building a creative practice,

00:38:03.209 --> 00:38:04.849
writing, painting, music, whatever.

00:38:05.669 --> 00:38:09.249
They know that they need discipline and structure. Well, do they know?

00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:11.769
I hope that they know. They probably know they need structure and discipline

00:38:11.769 --> 00:38:13.949
to hone their craft, the practice.

00:38:14.129 --> 00:38:18.609
That's the duty side. But then when it comes time to sit down and practice, here comes the serpent.

00:38:19.029 --> 00:38:22.929
This feels like work. And real creativity should be spontaneous and joyful.

00:38:22.929 --> 00:38:25.809
If you are forcing yourself, you're killing your artistic spirit.

00:38:25.989 --> 00:38:29.509
And suddenly, the discipline that would actually lead to mastery and genuine

00:38:29.509 --> 00:38:34.289
creative freedom down the road feels like it's opposed to their desire to be an artist.

00:38:34.569 --> 00:38:36.689
The pattern is so familiar.

00:38:37.069 --> 00:38:39.929
Take something that's actually protecting you or serving your deeper values.

00:38:40.089 --> 00:38:44.849
Now reframe it as oppression or restriction and then convince you that true

00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:47.029
fulfillment lies in abandoning that structure.

00:38:47.728 --> 00:38:51.928
Make the boundary seem like the enemy of your happiness instead of the container for it.

00:38:52.028 --> 00:38:55.528
The concept of the serpent, if it's a brilliant metaphor, if you believe in

00:38:55.528 --> 00:38:58.528
it literally, but what that does is create a split in your perception where

00:38:58.528 --> 00:38:59.348
there wasn't one before.

00:38:59.968 --> 00:39:03.588
So all of a sudden, the concept of the serpent makes you experience your commitment

00:39:03.588 --> 00:39:07.148
as constraint and your discipline as drudgery and your boundaries as barriers

00:39:07.148 --> 00:39:08.068
and your responsibilities.

00:39:08.708 --> 00:39:12.168
I couldn't think of anything that starts with the letter R and I love alliteration,

00:39:12.328 --> 00:39:13.648
but your responsibility as burdens.

00:39:13.848 --> 00:39:17.428
When in reality, these things are the structures that allow your deeper desires to flourish.

00:39:17.728 --> 00:39:21.708
And then here's the toxic part. Once you believe that duty and desire are opposed

00:39:21.708 --> 00:39:23.288
to each other, now you're kind of trapped.

00:39:23.788 --> 00:39:28.608
Because if you follow desire, you might feel guilty about abandoning your commitments.

00:39:28.808 --> 00:39:31.628
I'm going to sit down and practice every day on the piano, for example.

00:39:32.308 --> 00:39:35.568
But then I'm not going to do that because I just want to be able to figure it

00:39:35.568 --> 00:39:37.488
out and do it when I feel like I'm doing it.

00:39:37.888 --> 00:39:40.628
Or you follow that duty, got to sit down and practice every day,

00:39:40.788 --> 00:39:44.268
and you feel resentful that you're not, you don't like it, that you're not getting

00:39:44.268 --> 00:39:46.548
what you want. Either way, you're divided against yourself.

00:39:46.948 --> 00:39:50.148
Either way, you're suffering, and that's the wound. That's the fracture,

00:39:50.288 --> 00:39:54.048
and that's what Sarah and Michael were living out in their marriage every day.

00:39:54.448 --> 00:39:57.248
Heidi White then said, and the scripture tells us that Eve looked at the tree,

00:39:57.428 --> 00:40:00.088
saw that it was desirable to eat, and that it would make one wise,

00:40:00.168 --> 00:40:03.568
and it was then and only then that she decided to eat it, and that moment is

00:40:03.568 --> 00:40:05.168
when desire and duty split.

00:40:05.628 --> 00:40:08.828
That fracture, that fundamental wound is something that we keep replaying in

00:40:08.828 --> 00:40:12.248
our own lives, psychologically, morally, and then we keep telling ourselves

00:40:12.248 --> 00:40:14.948
the story over and over again in different forms because it captures something

00:40:14.948 --> 00:40:17.028
essential about the human experience.

00:40:17.588 --> 00:40:20.988
That's why Sarah had become pure duty without desire, that she'd organized her

00:40:20.988 --> 00:40:25.808
entire life around what she should do, and she'd lost all connection to what she actually wanted.

00:40:25.968 --> 00:40:28.948
And that disconnection made her resentful and exhausted and numb.

00:40:29.488 --> 00:40:33.828
And then Michael had become pure desire without duty because he then had organized

00:40:33.828 --> 00:40:39.028
his life around escaping responsibility because he experienced duty purely as constraint and death.

00:40:39.228 --> 00:40:42.508
And that disconnection left him feeling hollow and lonely and defensive.

00:40:43.794 --> 00:40:47.234
Here's the thing. True duty and true desire aren't opposed to each other.

00:40:47.414 --> 00:40:49.074
They're meant to be unified.

00:40:49.694 --> 00:40:52.434
And this part may sound a little counterintuitive. Stay with me.

00:40:52.534 --> 00:40:55.734
This is probably not the part that I want to put into a clip or a reel.

00:40:56.254 --> 00:41:01.014
But what if your duty as a spouse, either side, includes desiring your partner,

00:41:01.094 --> 00:41:05.054
not as an obligation, but as part of what you've committed to cultivate, to figure out?

00:41:05.174 --> 00:41:08.574
What if that's a me thing? and your duty as a parent, what if that includes

00:41:08.574 --> 00:41:11.994
modeling things like joy and rest and accountability and emotional safety for

00:41:11.994 --> 00:41:14.034
your children, not just productivity?

00:41:14.874 --> 00:41:19.174
Desire without duty, without structure, I think it becomes slavery to impulses.

00:41:19.354 --> 00:41:23.014
And then duty without desire becomes kind of a joyless obligation.

00:41:23.514 --> 00:41:27.274
Think about learning to paint. You have a desire to create art.

00:41:27.454 --> 00:41:30.334
You get really good at it. To get good at it, you need discipline.

00:41:30.534 --> 00:41:32.954
You need to practice techniques that feel frustrating at first.

00:41:33.654 --> 00:41:38.174
And if you follow every impulse without structure, you most likely won't develop mastery.

00:41:38.374 --> 00:41:42.214
You might get somewhere, you might have fun, but if you only focus on technique

00:41:42.214 --> 00:41:46.254
though without remembering why you wanted to paint in the first place, it can become a slog.

00:41:46.534 --> 00:41:48.694
It can become drudgery. The same with an athlete.

00:41:49.154 --> 00:41:53.874
Getting proficient and becoming really good at something requires practice and

00:41:53.874 --> 00:41:55.194
repetition and frustration.

00:41:55.494 --> 00:41:59.734
Those are things that seem to stifle the very reason that an athlete starts. Yeah.

00:42:00.088 --> 00:42:03.708
But then if they stay consistent, and if they even let duty shape their desire,

00:42:04.008 --> 00:42:08.088
then they eventually get freedom in their desire that they didn't have in the outset.

00:42:08.528 --> 00:42:11.928
A real example, I mentioned my son in previous episodes. He had a wonderful,

00:42:12.068 --> 00:42:15.308
amazing high school basketball career that led him to opportunities to play in college.

00:42:15.488 --> 00:42:19.008
Four-year varsity starter, set a school record in scoring, four years of all league.

00:42:19.188 --> 00:42:22.688
And I remember people saying so often that he was so lucky to have been blessed

00:42:22.688 --> 00:42:26.028
with that gift. And I remember him coming to me once in high school after a

00:42:26.028 --> 00:42:29.928
friend of his mom had said to him in front of her son, his friend,

00:42:30.148 --> 00:42:33.348
that his friend just wasn't as blessed as my son was.

00:42:33.528 --> 00:42:37.228
And my son telling me that the mom had no idea how often my son practiced,

00:42:37.468 --> 00:42:41.548
not from a place of validation, but just to share my experience.

00:42:41.828 --> 00:42:44.488
We had the standing rule with any of the kids that if they wanted to go on a

00:42:44.488 --> 00:42:46.968
run, we went. If they wanted to talk about a friendship thing, we did.

00:42:47.128 --> 00:42:49.708
If they wanted to talk about something with school, we did it.

00:42:49.828 --> 00:42:53.228
If they wanted help with the project, let's do it. If my son wanted to go to

00:42:53.228 --> 00:42:57.148
the church at night, even after a long day at work and put up shots, we did it.

00:42:57.288 --> 00:43:01.328
It didn't matter if I had worked all day or not. Smile and say yes.

00:43:01.628 --> 00:43:05.308
Did we go overboard at times? You bet we did. And I'm sure we created situations

00:43:05.308 --> 00:43:08.408
where their lack of planning created an emergency for my wife or me,

00:43:08.508 --> 00:43:11.228
but we were trying to figure things out as best as we could.

00:43:11.848 --> 00:43:14.848
My point being, though, that the number of hours practice that he put in was

00:43:14.848 --> 00:43:17.608
what allowed him the freedom to be as good as he was in the games.

00:43:17.848 --> 00:43:21.348
And I know that there are people who have serious talent, but I have personally,

00:43:21.608 --> 00:43:25.028
I don't know if I want to say never, but I don't feel like I've ever met somebody

00:43:25.028 --> 00:43:28.868
who was an incredibly successful fill in the blank, whatever that is.

00:43:29.268 --> 00:43:33.228
And I've had this opportunity to work with athletes and musicians and authors

00:43:33.228 --> 00:43:35.168
and successful business people.

00:43:35.528 --> 00:43:39.848
And yes, a lot of them had definite advantages due to their family finances

00:43:39.848 --> 00:43:41.108
or positions in the community.

00:43:41.228 --> 00:43:45.168
But there are plenty of people who also had those types of advantages who didn't

00:43:45.168 --> 00:43:49.648
put in above average amounts of effort into whatever it was that they wanted to do.

00:43:49.848 --> 00:43:53.528
For me personally, the number of Google Docs and unrecorded podcasts and recorded

00:43:53.528 --> 00:43:56.528
podcasts that I've done nothing with that I've created over the last 10 to 15

00:43:56.528 --> 00:43:57.728
years would be mind blowing.

00:43:58.423 --> 00:44:01.763
I was thinking about this in a way, it's almost like the concept of epigenetics,

00:44:01.923 --> 00:44:05.363
that we may have a genetic predisposition for something, let's say like anxiety,

00:44:05.363 --> 00:44:08.983
but then if we grow up living on the beach and there are no financial issues

00:44:08.983 --> 00:44:13.863
and we have an amazing, wonderful dog and life just flows,

00:44:14.183 --> 00:44:17.503
it's as if that genetic predisposition doesn't become unlocked.

00:44:18.163 --> 00:44:21.963
What if we have this predisposition for something, but then do we take advantage

00:44:21.963 --> 00:44:24.403
of the opportunity to nurture those abilities or gifts?

00:44:24.843 --> 00:44:30.003
So then to unlock true desire, I'm afraid, or maybe let me reframe that.

00:44:30.283 --> 00:44:35.063
No, to unlock true desire, it's going to come with a free life course in duty or discipline.

00:44:35.063 --> 00:44:38.723
Even if you have a number of stories that your brain's telling you about duty

00:44:38.723 --> 00:44:41.343
or discipline, the greatest hits of those being things like,

00:44:41.523 --> 00:44:44.203
well, I'm not very disciplined or I'm not even sure where to start.

00:44:44.203 --> 00:44:47.503
Or what if this isn't something that will eventually pan out for me anyway,

00:44:47.503 --> 00:44:49.583
or I'm not even sure if this is something that I would like to do,

00:44:49.643 --> 00:44:53.183
and I want to turn this into some sort of almost infomercial now and say,

00:44:53.363 --> 00:44:57.263
and as we're talking about this act now, your brain will also provide you with thoughts such as,

00:44:57.663 --> 00:45:00.083
sure, but if I like doing this thing now, and if I do it too much,

00:45:00.203 --> 00:45:01.023
then I won't like it anymore.

00:45:01.023 --> 00:45:04.643
Or I can't pursue this thing because if I make it my focus or my job,

00:45:04.823 --> 00:45:06.103
then it will lose all the magic.

00:45:06.363 --> 00:45:10.043
I bring that up because I remember so well hearing that concept over and over

00:45:10.043 --> 00:45:13.303
earlier in my career about if people just pursued their passions,

00:45:13.303 --> 00:45:16.063
granted with discipline, then it would no longer be enjoyable.

00:45:16.303 --> 00:45:19.683
And I would say, man, that's a great point until I remembered the very person

00:45:19.683 --> 00:45:23.263
in my office who was saying that exact thing when I thought, wait a minute.

00:45:23.963 --> 00:45:28.603
I did not care much for my 10 years in the computer software industry, and I love what I do now.

00:45:29.343 --> 00:45:35.283
And it's been at the time that this happened, I was 15 years into my career, and I loved it.

00:45:35.903 --> 00:45:39.603
And I love it more and more. And here I am another five or more years since,

00:45:39.723 --> 00:45:41.323
and I still absolutely love it.

00:45:41.403 --> 00:45:44.523
And I can't wait to continue to learn what else that I don't even know that

00:45:44.523 --> 00:45:47.423
I don't know yet about myself, about relationships, of human behavior,

00:45:47.803 --> 00:45:51.223
of parenting, of faith, you name it. When we don't discipline our desires,

00:45:51.603 --> 00:45:55.203
we find ourselves reacting to these moment-by-moment impulses.

00:45:55.363 --> 00:46:00.503
When we don't connect our duty to desire, we become dried-up, resentful machines.

00:46:01.043 --> 00:46:04.223
Sarah actually needed what Michael had. Michael needed what Sarah had.

00:46:04.443 --> 00:46:07.703
Sarah needed to reconnect with desire to remember that her duty to her family

00:46:07.703 --> 00:46:10.943
includes her own flourishing, raising her emotional baseline.

00:46:10.943 --> 00:46:14.403
And Michael needed to reconnect with duty to understand that his desire for

00:46:14.403 --> 00:46:19.303
intimacy and connection can't be achieved through just escape and self-indulgence.

00:46:19.583 --> 00:46:24.163
In sessions, I said to Sarah, you've become so identified with duty that you've

00:46:24.163 --> 00:46:25.383
lost touch with an important truth.

00:46:25.603 --> 00:46:30.463
Your duty as a human includes actively working on desire for life.

00:46:30.923 --> 00:46:32.863
Your duty as a mom, what if that

00:46:32.863 --> 00:46:35.783
includes modeling joy and rest for your children, not just productivity?

00:46:36.043 --> 00:46:39.123
What would it mean if doing your duty to your family required you to reconnect

00:46:39.123 --> 00:46:42.883
with what you genuinely want? And to Michael, you think you're pursuing desire,

00:46:43.103 --> 00:46:46.403
but you've identified that you're just running away from things.

00:46:46.583 --> 00:46:50.603
Real desire that kind of fulfills requires commitment and structure and discipline.

00:46:50.903 --> 00:46:53.683
You say you want connection with Sarah, but you're not willing to do the small

00:46:53.683 --> 00:46:57.003
daily acts that would make you trustworthy and present to her.

00:46:57.223 --> 00:46:59.803
It's like he wants the harvest without planting anything.

00:47:00.764 --> 00:47:03.724
The goal wasn't to get Sarah to loosen up and Michael to tighten up,

00:47:03.844 --> 00:47:07.184
though behaviorally, over time, that might look like that's what happens.

00:47:07.424 --> 00:47:11.124
The goal is to help them see that true duty is desirable.

00:47:11.604 --> 00:47:15.964
That Sarah's duty to her family and to herself is not opposed to her flourishing.

00:47:16.104 --> 00:47:17.084
It actually requires it.

00:47:17.244 --> 00:47:21.444
A burnt-out, resentful, joyless mom doesn't serve anybody well, especially herself.

00:47:21.824 --> 00:47:24.224
And true desire requires duty.

00:47:24.664 --> 00:47:28.324
Michael's desire for intimacy and connection and a meaningful life can't be

00:47:28.324 --> 00:47:30.324
achieved through escape and self-indulgence.

00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:34.404
It requires the very commitment and discipline he's been trying to avoid.

00:47:34.944 --> 00:47:37.564
So some of the homework that I assigned for Sarah, things like,

00:47:37.664 --> 00:47:39.944
hey, this week, I want you to identify one thing that you genuinely want.

00:47:40.264 --> 00:47:44.484
You don't even have to do it right now. Just be aware and not the things that

00:47:44.484 --> 00:47:47.444
you think you should want, not what would be responsible to want.

00:47:47.544 --> 00:47:50.104
But what do you want? What do you desire? What would bring you joy?

00:47:50.244 --> 00:47:53.624
It could be as simple as a few minutes of reading a novel. It could be taking a bath.

00:47:53.784 --> 00:47:56.024
It could be going to coffee with a friend. It could be going on a walk.

00:47:56.324 --> 00:47:59.064
It could be just sitting outside and doing nothing.

00:47:59.444 --> 00:48:01.744
And we'll get to the point where your assignment is to actually do it.

00:48:01.844 --> 00:48:06.864
We need to identify it and then notice the guilt and understand that isn't being selfish.

00:48:07.044 --> 00:48:09.244
It's part of your duty to remain human.

00:48:09.644 --> 00:48:14.704
For Michael, that's where we got a little more pushback. Choose one small concrete daily duty.

00:48:15.064 --> 00:48:18.604
Make the kids lunches. Do the dishes after dinner. Take out the trash without being asked.

00:48:19.524 --> 00:48:23.404
And don't brag about it. Commit to it for a week, not because of Sarah's nagging,

00:48:23.544 --> 00:48:26.304
but as a practice. And you don't need to get a trophy for it.

00:48:26.424 --> 00:48:29.664
You can tell me about it as your therapist, But try not to just get the validation

00:48:29.664 --> 00:48:32.184
from your wife for the thing that she does kind of all the time.

00:48:32.604 --> 00:48:35.004
And then notice how it feels different when it's your choice,

00:48:35.224 --> 00:48:39.664
when your structure is your choice, not a rebellion against her expectations.

00:48:40.744 --> 00:48:43.964
And my own work. I need to be honest about something that came up for me while

00:48:43.964 --> 00:48:44.844
working with Sarah and Michael.

00:48:44.904 --> 00:48:48.904
When I first heard the word duty in Heidi White's podcast, boy,

00:48:48.984 --> 00:48:51.604
did I have a negative reaction. I felt my own tightening in my chest.

00:48:52.167 --> 00:48:55.507
Because words just don't have dictionary definitions. They have relational networks

00:48:55.507 --> 00:48:57.967
of meaning that we've built up over our entire lives.

00:48:58.087 --> 00:49:01.807
When I hear duty, my brain doesn't just think of responsibility and what a wonderful

00:49:01.807 --> 00:49:05.007
thing to provide a container for my desires.

00:49:05.287 --> 00:49:08.627
Oh, no, I pull up associations, being controlled, doing things I don't want

00:49:08.627 --> 00:49:11.527
to do, lectures on responsibility, feeling trapped, resentment.

00:49:11.707 --> 00:49:14.727
And I realized, oh, I'm more drawn to this desire side of the equation as well.

00:49:14.947 --> 00:49:17.647
I love spontaneity, following what feels alive in the moment.

00:49:17.807 --> 00:49:20.547
The idea of discipline and structure felt constraining. And honestly,

00:49:20.787 --> 00:49:24.367
there were moments in the sessions, especially when Michael would talk where

00:49:24.367 --> 00:49:26.707
I wanted to say, you know, Sarah, I think he's got a good point.

00:49:26.867 --> 00:49:30.227
But then the more I've explored this concept, the more I've had to look honestly at my own life.

00:49:30.387 --> 00:49:34.107
There are areas where I could use a lot more discipline and I can't just blame

00:49:34.107 --> 00:49:38.247
it on, oh, it's my HD or I don't do a nice job with checklists.

00:49:38.927 --> 00:49:44.327
My resistance to duty is sometimes actually, maybe it's my resistance to growth,

00:49:44.507 --> 00:49:48.807
that fear of what the future may hold if I now actually do the thing that I've

00:49:48.807 --> 00:49:52.607
always told myself that I want to do, something that I need to continue to examine.

00:49:52.607 --> 00:49:57.807
And I want to touch briefly on values and values versus socially compliant goals.

00:49:58.007 --> 00:50:01.907
I talked about this earlier in the year in an episode when I was talking about

00:50:01.907 --> 00:50:06.427
New Year's resolutions, because this is where I love ACT, acceptance and commitment

00:50:06.427 --> 00:50:11.427
therapies, emphasis on values versus socially compliant goals, that it's so crucial.

00:50:11.807 --> 00:50:14.807
Values are the directions you choose for your life based on what truly matters

00:50:14.807 --> 00:50:17.867
to you. And socially compliant goals are the things that you think that you're

00:50:17.867 --> 00:50:20.787
supposed to do because others expect that.

00:50:20.987 --> 00:50:23.707
Your parents instilled that in you, your community, your church.

00:50:23.847 --> 00:50:26.947
You're trying to do these things because you think that's what you need to do,

00:50:27.087 --> 00:50:32.427
especially to avoid judgment or to get validation or because that's just what responsible people do.

00:50:32.887 --> 00:50:37.027
And socially compliant goals are exhausting because they're disconnected from your actual values.

00:50:37.607 --> 00:50:43.087
They become stifling because if I don't even want to do the thing that I think

00:50:43.087 --> 00:50:46.407
I'm supposed to do, then I'm going to turn to this concept called experiential avoidance.

00:50:46.507 --> 00:50:49.707
I'm going to do anything else other than the thing that I think I'm supposed to want to do.

00:50:50.147 --> 00:50:52.207
That is pure duty without desire.

00:50:52.923 --> 00:50:55.603
That's Sarah doing everything perfectly because that's what a,

00:50:55.603 --> 00:50:58.963
quote, good mom is supposed to do. Not because those specific things align with

00:50:58.963 --> 00:51:00.603
what she genuinely values about motherhood.

00:51:00.903 --> 00:51:04.063
But that's where you can see it can get tricky because you can't discover your

00:51:04.063 --> 00:51:06.043
values just by asking what you want in the moment.

00:51:06.263 --> 00:51:10.643
You have to go on the hero's journey. that process of leaving the comfortable,

00:51:10.863 --> 00:51:14.563
of facing challenges, of confronting your own shadow and coming back with wisdom

00:51:14.563 --> 00:51:15.983
about who you actually are.

00:51:16.343 --> 00:51:19.783
And the way you're going to find out who you are is to do things,

00:51:19.943 --> 00:51:25.383
to explore, to be open, to, I struggle with the concept of failure,

00:51:25.563 --> 00:51:28.683
but to not having a wonderful time in the thing that you're doing.

00:51:29.043 --> 00:51:32.983
Because once you know what matters to you, not what you think should matter,

00:51:33.303 --> 00:51:37.343
not what your parents think should matter, not what the algorithm on Instagram

00:51:37.343 --> 00:51:42.183
or TikTok, things should matter, then discipline stops being duty in the heavy obligatory sense.

00:51:42.363 --> 00:51:44.823
It starts to feel more like aligned action.

00:51:45.083 --> 00:51:49.563
I think of a musician that I worked with once who valued mastery and creative expression.

00:51:50.023 --> 00:51:54.883
And I will tell you, he did not experience practicing scales or just the daily

00:51:54.883 --> 00:51:56.643
grind as soul crushing drudgery.

00:51:56.803 --> 00:52:00.763
He said, it's just what you do when you're moving towards something that you genuinely desire.

00:52:01.423 --> 00:52:03.583
Discipline in the service of something that genuinely matters,

00:52:03.943 --> 00:52:08.543
something that you genuinely desire, that unifies duty with desire.

00:52:09.371 --> 00:52:12.851
So Sarah needed to distinguish between values that she actually held,

00:52:13.011 --> 00:52:15.591
being present with her children, creating a loving home, contributing through

00:52:15.591 --> 00:52:19.071
her work, and the socially compliant goals she'd absorbed about what a,

00:52:19.171 --> 00:52:21.051
quote, good wife and mother should look like.

00:52:21.331 --> 00:52:24.891
And once she was able to make that distinction, then some of the duties became

00:52:24.891 --> 00:52:27.151
lighter because they were aligned with her values.

00:52:27.511 --> 00:52:31.031
Others she let go of entirely because they were performative obligations.

00:52:31.291 --> 00:52:34.571
And Michael had to do the same thing to distinguish his genuine values,

00:52:34.791 --> 00:52:38.431
playfulness, adventure, connection, curiosity. He wanted to be a present father

00:52:38.431 --> 00:52:41.431
from his immature, reactive rebellion against structure.

00:52:41.631 --> 00:52:45.631
And once he could see that discipline in certain areas would actually serve

00:52:45.631 --> 00:52:48.371
his values, then he was able to embrace it differently.

00:52:48.811 --> 00:52:52.531
Find your own words, the words themselves, duty and desire. That might carry

00:52:52.531 --> 00:52:54.391
different baggage for different people. If you need different words,

00:52:54.391 --> 00:52:56.051
you can do that. You're an adult.

00:52:56.511 --> 00:53:00.311
Instead of duty, you can try commitment. What you've chosen to be accountable

00:53:00.311 --> 00:53:03.171
to, structure, the framework that supports your goals, discipline,

00:53:03.351 --> 00:53:06.891
the practice that builds mastery or responsibility. what you've chosen to steward,

00:53:07.331 --> 00:53:09.851
integrity, alignment between your values and your actions.

00:53:09.991 --> 00:53:13.731
Or instead of desire, you might try longing, what your soul is drawn toward

00:53:13.731 --> 00:53:16.751
or aspiration, what you're reaching for or passion, what energizes you,

00:53:16.851 --> 00:53:20.391
what moves you, aliveness, what makes you feel like you want to go out and live.

00:53:20.531 --> 00:53:23.931
The point isn't the specific words. The point is integration.

00:53:24.371 --> 00:53:28.591
The point is bringing together the part of you that knows what matters,

00:53:29.051 --> 00:53:32.651
values, desire, longing, or the part of you that can commit to consistent action

00:53:32.651 --> 00:53:36.191
in that direction, discipline, structure, duty, commitment.

00:53:36.531 --> 00:53:40.771
And it's that integration that doesn't happen by accident. It requires figuring

00:53:40.771 --> 00:53:43.191
out what you actually value, what you actually care about.

00:53:43.651 --> 00:53:48.051
And you can hopefully see that when you are just stuck in this things I have

00:53:48.051 --> 00:53:52.731
to do, it's also providing you with a little bit of a reason to not figure out

00:53:52.731 --> 00:53:53.751
what really matters to you.

00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.920
Having the honesty to distinguish your values from the socially compliant goals

00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.760
and be willing to embrace discipline, not as a soul-crushing obligation,

00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.760
but as a path toward what you actually want, is going to help.

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:08.380
So where are they now? I have been working with Sarah and Michael off and on

00:54:08.380 --> 00:54:12.600
for quite a while. They come in for regular checkups. They've had some setbacks in conversations.

00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:16.500
Sometimes the conversations completely derail, but they keep coming back to

00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:18.420
the framework and continuing to work together.

00:54:18.580 --> 00:54:21.840
And Sarah is doing an amazing job figuring out what she wants and what she desires.

00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:25.160
And there was a brief moment where they both feared that they would figure out

00:54:25.160 --> 00:54:28.660
who they were and what they didn't like each other, this new version of each

00:54:28.660 --> 00:54:30.680
other. And I said, that would be a thing.

00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.420
And that was a story that their brain was trying to hook to,

00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:36.560
to keep them from figuring out what really mattered.

00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:40.140
She went on spa weekend, started reading fiction before bed instead of scrolling

00:54:40.140 --> 00:54:42.560
through her to-do list or her social media feed.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:46.380
She's learning that wanting things actually is not selfish and it can be uncomfortable

00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:48.020
and enjoyable at the same time.

00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:50.580
She can actually hold both of those feelings at the same time.

00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:55.440
And being human is what it takes to be a good human and a good wife and a good mom.

00:54:55.740 --> 00:54:59.180
And she's also done the harder work of distinguishing her actual values from

00:54:59.180 --> 00:55:02.620
these socially compliant goals. And that's taken a lot of undoing as it came

00:55:02.620 --> 00:55:05.820
with a free faith crisis that came along with it that she wasn't even aware of.

00:55:06.220 --> 00:55:09.460
She realized that so much of her duties, keeping the house magazine perfect,

00:55:09.660 --> 00:55:12.540
volunteering for every school committee, weren't connected to what she valued.

00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:16.000
It was performative. It was what she thought she was supposed to do.

00:55:16.220 --> 00:55:20.020
And then she's learned to let a lot of that go and the world still spins.

00:55:20.020 --> 00:55:24.780
And Michael actually loves her even more as she's becoming more of her authentic self.

00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:29.320
And Michael is surprisingly starting to embrace discipline to the point where

00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:32.500
I am having counter-transference, realizing, oh wait, he's doing more of the

00:55:32.500 --> 00:55:34.680
thing that we've been talking about than I sure have.

00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:38.420
He's been committed to doing more morning routines. He's started walking in

00:55:38.420 --> 00:55:41.340
and taking action on things that needed to be done instead of waiting to be assigned tasks.

00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.380
He's learning that structure and commitment do not kill spontaneity.

00:55:44.600 --> 00:55:49.300
They actually create this foundation for intimacy because now Sarah just has

00:55:49.300 --> 00:55:51.080
an overall feeling of trust for him.

00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:54.920
You can't have a real adventure without planning it out. And you can still be

00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.120
spontaneous within those plans.

00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.260
You can't have deep connection without consistent presence and you can't be

00:56:00.260 --> 00:56:01.560
dependable without some discipline.

00:56:01.740 --> 00:56:05.340
The goal isn't to choose between duty and desire or between structure and spontaneity

00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:06.380
or commitment and passion.

00:56:06.560 --> 00:56:09.280
It's bringing those things together because that's what marriage is supposed

00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.820
to be. The vows are literally the integration.

00:56:12.080 --> 00:56:17.100
I want you, desire, passion, longing, and I commit to you, duty,

00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:20.120
devotion, discipline as one unified reality.

00:56:20.768 --> 00:56:24.248
And the work is to remarry each other however many times you need to.

00:56:24.468 --> 00:56:27.488
So if you're listening and you're recognizing yourself, whether you're the Sarah

00:56:27.488 --> 00:56:30.468
who's lost her sense of desire or the Michael who's avoiding all sense of duty

00:56:30.468 --> 00:56:32.948
and discipline, I want you to know you're not broken.

00:56:33.168 --> 00:56:35.528
You are divided and division can be healed.

00:56:35.828 --> 00:56:41.808
It is time to do something about it. And I want you to go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.

00:56:42.068 --> 00:56:46.168
Get on the wait list, if anything, because I'm going to talk about so much of

00:56:46.168 --> 00:56:49.268
this and ways to communicate and connect using my four pillars of a connected

00:56:49.268 --> 00:56:52.128
conversation framework. We're going to talk about differentiation.

00:56:52.508 --> 00:56:54.988
We're going to talk about the need for validation, what emotional immaturity,

00:56:55.168 --> 00:56:58.628
the role that plays, and so many things that you did not know that you did not know.

00:56:58.768 --> 00:57:04.088
I want to help you go on your own hero's journey to discover what you actually

00:57:04.088 --> 00:57:08.048
value versus what you think you're supposed to and find out what matters to

00:57:08.048 --> 00:57:12.048
you and help you be willing to embrace the discipline required to move toward it.

00:57:12.548 --> 00:57:16.428
It takes work to get success, and that includes in your marriage.

00:57:17.008 --> 00:57:21.208
Your marriage does not have to be a battleground between duty and desire or

00:57:21.208 --> 00:57:24.428
between structure and spontaneity or between what you should do and what you want to do.

00:57:24.828 --> 00:57:28.488
It needs to be this feast where both are present and both are celebrated.

00:57:28.868 --> 00:57:32.428
When you're no longer divided against yourself first and then each other,

00:57:32.868 --> 00:57:37.528
you can really start to have an intimate connection. That's the work and it is so worth it.

00:57:37.988 --> 00:57:41.288
If you have questions or thoughts or your own stories, reach out, I'd love to hear them.

00:57:41.648 --> 00:57:44.888
And then taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence

00:57:44.888 --> 00:57:47.648
with her song, It's Wonderful because I'm telling you, if you get the right

00:57:47.648 --> 00:57:50.548
tools, it really can be. Have a great week and we'll see you next time.