WEBVTT 00:00:23.444 --> 00:00:28.144 Welcome to episode 462 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:28.844 --> 00:00:32.404 I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, 00:00:32.604 --> 00:00:34.124 writer, speaker, husband, father of four. 00:00:34.924 --> 00:00:38.024 And I am really excited to talk about... 00:00:38.811 --> 00:00:43.471 A couple's aha moment. And I often say with individuals that you can never be 00:00:43.471 --> 00:00:46.191 the one to give someone else an aha moment or an epiphany. 00:00:46.371 --> 00:00:51.731 But when you see a couple work together, there's just something really special 00:00:51.731 --> 00:00:53.191 about that as a couple's therapist. 00:00:53.811 --> 00:00:59.831 But before I tell you more about what the episode's about, I want to take you on my train of thought. 00:00:59.971 --> 00:01:02.331 I would love for you to imagine a few scenarios with me. 00:01:02.931 --> 00:01:06.791 Scenario one, your partner comes home from work and you can tell that they are 00:01:06.791 --> 00:01:10.651 visibly stressed. You can see it in their face, in their body language. 00:01:10.811 --> 00:01:15.031 And then immediately before they've even said a word, you feel yourself start to tense up. 00:01:15.211 --> 00:01:18.831 And part of you wants to ask, hey, what's wrong? But another part of you is already calculating. 00:01:19.211 --> 00:01:24.511 If I ask, then they're going to vent for 20 minutes or maybe I'm already supposed to know. 00:01:25.031 --> 00:01:28.771 Then I'll probably say the wrong thing and we'll end up in a fight. 00:01:28.931 --> 00:01:32.291 So maybe if I just stay quiet and I just let them decompress, 00:01:32.511 --> 00:01:34.851 that will be the right thing to do. 00:01:34.951 --> 00:01:37.271 So you say nothing. or you retreat to another room. 00:01:37.391 --> 00:01:40.351 And then later that night, they're upset that you didn't seem to care about 00:01:40.351 --> 00:01:41.591 their day. He didn't ask him anything. 00:01:42.131 --> 00:01:45.391 Or scenario two, you forgot to do something that you said you'd do. 00:01:45.511 --> 00:01:48.191 And again, not a big thing, pick something up from the store, 00:01:48.351 --> 00:01:50.431 make a phone call, whatever it is, something like that. 00:01:50.791 --> 00:01:54.991 But let's say it's the third, maybe fourth time this month that you forgot to 00:01:54.991 --> 00:01:56.831 do some things that you said you were going to do. 00:01:56.931 --> 00:02:01.511 And you really mean, well, you really do mean to do them when you say that you're going to do them. 00:02:01.831 --> 00:02:05.311 So your partner brings it up and then you can kind of hear the frustration in their voice. 00:02:05.811 --> 00:02:09.071 And then here's what happens in your head. Okay, here we go. Here we go again. 00:02:09.711 --> 00:02:14.231 They're building this up to be a bigger conversation about how I never follow through. 00:02:14.631 --> 00:02:17.831 And if I just go ahead and apologize right now, maybe I can head this off. 00:02:18.151 --> 00:02:20.111 Or maybe this is the time I defend myself. 00:02:20.751 --> 00:02:23.731 Maybe what I'll do is I'll point out all the things that they didn't do today. 00:02:24.491 --> 00:02:27.311 What's the right response that will make this go away the fastest? 00:02:27.811 --> 00:02:32.551 So you're not actually listening to what they're saying. You're calculating your next move. Okay. 00:02:33.095 --> 00:02:37.375 Or let's go with one more. You're trying to tell your partner about something that really hurt you. 00:02:37.535 --> 00:02:40.755 Something that they said last week that's really just been bothering you. 00:02:40.855 --> 00:02:42.035 It's just been kind of eating you up. 00:02:42.215 --> 00:02:45.415 And as you're talking, you watch their face start to change. 00:02:45.915 --> 00:02:49.795 They're starting to shut down. Or maybe they're getting very defensive. 00:02:50.215 --> 00:02:54.135 And you can feel the conversation slipping away before you're even finished making your point. 00:02:54.375 --> 00:02:59.195 So you escalate. Your voice gets louder. And your examples get a little bit 00:02:59.195 --> 00:03:02.795 more dramatic and a little more hurried. because some part of you knows if you 00:03:02.795 --> 00:03:06.295 don't land this right now, if you don't really get them to hear you, 00:03:06.635 --> 00:03:08.975 the moment will pass, nothing will change. 00:03:09.375 --> 00:03:13.355 And all of a sudden, you're in a full-blown argument about something that started 00:03:13.355 --> 00:03:15.295 as you just really trying to share your feelings. 00:03:15.735 --> 00:03:19.155 So if any of those sound familiar, you are a regular human being. 00:03:19.295 --> 00:03:21.795 Here's what's happening in all three of those scenarios. 00:03:22.575 --> 00:03:25.915 And this is going to be the thread that runs through everything that we talk about today. 00:03:26.195 --> 00:03:27.995 Both people are trying to manage 00:03:27.995 --> 00:03:31.415 the other person's emotions instead of really being present to them. 00:03:31.755 --> 00:03:36.635 Now, earlier this month, I did a two-part episode on the concept of co-regulation 00:03:36.635 --> 00:03:41.695 in relationships or how our nervous systems learned in childhood to either seek 00:03:41.695 --> 00:03:44.995 connection when we're distressed or to protect ourselves through distance. 00:03:45.515 --> 00:03:49.755 And honestly, I am grateful for your feedback. The feedback I got from those 00:03:49.755 --> 00:03:50.575 episodes was incredible. 00:03:50.975 --> 00:03:55.115 So a lot of people reached out and said, hey, this explains a lot about my relationship. 00:03:55.115 --> 00:04:00.195 And they love the fact that it explained the things in their relationship because 00:04:00.195 --> 00:04:03.535 if there's these origin stories that make sense of why we're together, 00:04:03.815 --> 00:04:08.775 then maybe that will help us figure out how to get out of these negative patterns. 00:04:09.653 --> 00:04:12.673 So here's what I want to do today. I want to take those concepts and then show 00:04:12.673 --> 00:04:16.393 you what they actually look like in real time and a real couple's journey from 00:04:16.393 --> 00:04:18.753 that stuck place to something profoundly different. 00:04:19.173 --> 00:04:22.373 Because here's the thing about co-regulation that I didn't fully get into in 00:04:22.373 --> 00:04:23.353 those earlier episodes. 00:04:23.833 --> 00:04:27.533 When your nervous system learned as a child that connection is unreliable or 00:04:27.533 --> 00:04:34.093 dangerous, you don't just carry that forward as a belief. You carry it forward as a state of being. 00:04:34.273 --> 00:04:38.093 You carry it forward as a survival strategy that most likely plays out every 00:04:38.093 --> 00:04:41.433 single day in your adult relationships, not just in your romantic relationships, 00:04:41.433 --> 00:04:44.813 but in the relationships with friends, colleagues, you name it. 00:04:45.113 --> 00:04:48.613 So if you're anxiously attached, if your childhood taught you that connection 00:04:48.613 --> 00:04:53.173 is unstable and you need to work constantly to secure it, then you develop strategies 00:04:53.173 --> 00:04:55.773 for managing other people's emotions to keep them close. 00:04:55.953 --> 00:05:00.013 You become hypervigilant to their moods. You try to anticipate their needs and 00:05:00.013 --> 00:05:04.953 you calculate what to say to keep them engaged because disconnection feels like 00:05:04.953 --> 00:05:06.253 abandonment. It can feel like death. 00:05:06.633 --> 00:05:10.113 Now, if you're avoidantly attached, if your childhood taught you that connection 00:05:10.113 --> 00:05:13.793 is dangerous and people will fall apart on you and it will be nothing but criticism 00:05:13.793 --> 00:05:17.573 and you need to protect yourself through distance, you develop strategies for 00:05:17.573 --> 00:05:19.753 managing other people's emotions to keep yourself safe. 00:05:19.753 --> 00:05:24.833 So you may withdraw or you minimize or you give calculated responses designed 00:05:24.833 --> 00:05:29.113 to make uncomfortable emotions go away as quickly as possible because emotional 00:05:29.113 --> 00:05:32.233 intensity not only feels dangerous, but it feels like a trap. 00:05:33.023 --> 00:05:38.443 And then here's what is wild. Both strategies are about the same thing, emotional management. 00:05:38.823 --> 00:05:43.563 One person is managing to pull closer and the other is managing to push away. 00:05:43.843 --> 00:05:47.543 But both people are trying to control the other person's emotional state rather 00:05:47.543 --> 00:05:49.323 than actually being present to it. 00:05:49.483 --> 00:05:56.143 And this is exhausting for everybody involved. And it's not going to bring you closer. 00:05:56.323 --> 00:05:59.763 You're just trying to get out of the moment. You're trying to manage someone's 00:05:59.763 --> 00:06:05.783 emotions without even probably knowing what you don't know about how to communicate more effectively. 00:06:06.023 --> 00:06:09.623 Today, I want to share a story about a couple that I worked with, 00:06:09.683 --> 00:06:15.263 and it's more based on a accumulation of couples. So, I've changed details so 00:06:15.263 --> 00:06:16.923 that we're not breaking any confidentiality. 00:06:17.023 --> 00:06:22.203 I can only describe what they had in session that really drove me to create 00:06:22.203 --> 00:06:27.183 this episode as a profound breakthrough moment, almost an aha moment. 00:06:27.183 --> 00:06:30.023 And I've been doing the couple's work for over 20 years. 00:06:30.223 --> 00:06:34.703 I really do enjoy it. A lot of times people tell me that they don't really even 00:06:34.703 --> 00:06:36.803 know what a healthy relationship looks like. 00:06:36.943 --> 00:06:41.223 I want to do more of these kind of episodes to say, here's what it can look like. 00:06:41.303 --> 00:06:45.003 I want you to at least have something in mind because when you witness these 00:06:45.003 --> 00:06:47.963 moments, these genuine shifts, it never gets old. 00:06:48.123 --> 00:06:51.323 It's actually one of the reasons I love doing couple's work so much. 00:06:51.843 --> 00:06:53.903 But before I get to their story, I want you to think about something. 00:06:53.903 --> 00:06:57.743 And this connects directly to those three scenarios that I described at the beginning. 00:06:58.163 --> 00:07:01.843 When your partner is upset, and I mean, you could even say when one of your 00:07:01.843 --> 00:07:05.043 kids is upset, again, a work colleague, you name it. 00:07:05.283 --> 00:07:08.903 But when your partner's upset, and I mean really upset, how often do you find 00:07:08.903 --> 00:07:10.263 yourself calculating what to say? 00:07:10.443 --> 00:07:16.783 Not what is true, but what will manage their emotions or what will diffuse yours or get rid of yours? 00:07:17.243 --> 00:07:20.543 What will get them to calm down? What will make this whole thing go away? 00:07:20.543 --> 00:07:25.003 What are the right mouth noises and arm movements that will be the right combination 00:07:25.003 --> 00:07:26.323 that will get us out of this moment? 00:07:27.190 --> 00:07:31.150 What will keep them from shutting down or from escalating? 00:07:31.570 --> 00:07:35.550 And then here's the companion question to that. How often do you find yourself 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:39.390 escalating or withdrawing based on whether your calculated response is working? 00:07:40.110 --> 00:07:43.770 When your attempt to manage their emotions isn't landing the way you hoped, 00:07:44.010 --> 00:07:47.050 do you then pursue harder? Do you get more frantic? 00:07:47.290 --> 00:07:50.030 Do you talk faster, louder, or do you retreat? 00:07:50.290 --> 00:07:52.970 Do you shut down? Do you hunker down and wait for the storm to pass? 00:07:53.450 --> 00:07:56.070 Hold those thoughts because we're going to come back to them. 00:07:56.070 --> 00:07:57.710 So let me tell you about this couple. 00:07:57.930 --> 00:08:01.090 I'll call them Mark and Sarah. And they came to therapy after Sarah discovered 00:08:01.090 --> 00:08:03.870 that Mark had been hiding a significant amount of debt from her. 00:08:03.970 --> 00:08:08.090 And we're not talking about forgetting to mention a credit card bill or an extra 00:08:08.090 --> 00:08:12.210 Netflix subscription. We're talking about tens and tens of thousands of dollars 00:08:12.210 --> 00:08:14.310 that she had no idea existed. 00:08:15.046 --> 00:08:19.166 Some credit cards, maybe we'll call them secret loans that he'd taken out without 00:08:19.166 --> 00:08:22.766 telling her money that had been slowly accumulating while she thought that they 00:08:22.766 --> 00:08:25.026 were working toward their financial goals together. 00:08:25.406 --> 00:08:28.366 When Sarah found out, and unfortunately she found out the hard way, 00:08:28.546 --> 00:08:33.626 when a collection agency contacted her, she felt completely betrayed. 00:08:34.066 --> 00:08:37.486 The foundation of their relationship felt like it had crumbled underneath her 00:08:37.486 --> 00:08:41.746 because here's the thing about financial infidelity, and that's what we're calling 00:08:41.746 --> 00:08:46.546 it. It carries a lot of the same elements as even things like a physical affair. 00:08:46.666 --> 00:08:48.026 And I know it's not exactly the same. 00:08:48.206 --> 00:08:51.586 I'm not trying to say that, but there's the secrecy, the lying, 00:08:51.826 --> 00:08:55.886 the breaking of trust, the separate life your partner was living that you knew nothing about. 00:08:56.426 --> 00:08:59.886 And Mark, at first, he did not handle it well, not well at all. 00:09:00.006 --> 00:09:02.966 He was defensive. He minimized. He got angry that she was overreacting. 00:09:04.206 --> 00:09:07.566 He felt like she wasn't giving him a fair chance to explain himself. 00:09:07.986 --> 00:09:11.206 A lot of signs of emotional maturity. He'd say things like, hey, 00:09:11.266 --> 00:09:14.826 I was trying to protect you, or I was going to tell you when I figured it out, 00:09:14.986 --> 00:09:18.686 or hey, you're making this into a bigger deal than it is, not like you're perfect yourself. 00:09:19.366 --> 00:09:23.386 And I would imagine that some of those things sound familiar. 00:09:23.826 --> 00:09:26.706 For the first several weeks of therapy, they were stuck in this pattern. 00:09:26.866 --> 00:09:30.926 Sarah would come in desperately needing assurance, and she would get upset, 00:09:30.926 --> 00:09:35.766 and she just needed Mark to take it, to take a tongue lashing of sorts. 00:09:36.106 --> 00:09:39.746 But she also needed Mark to guarantee it would never, ever happen again. 00:09:39.986 --> 00:09:42.666 She needed him to prove that he was trustworthy. 00:09:43.366 --> 00:09:45.906 And when we dip back into the world of emotional immaturity, 00:09:46.166 --> 00:09:51.866 she just needed to feel that way, but she did not even know what it would take to feel that way. 00:09:52.026 --> 00:09:57.346 So, Mark needed to put on his tap shoes and start dancing. But here's what he was actually doing. 00:09:57.626 --> 00:10:03.546 He was calculating, not in a twist his mustache being very nefarious way. 00:10:03.846 --> 00:10:05.946 It's something that I think most of us do. 00:10:06.674 --> 00:10:12.774 Every response was reactive or it was designed to manage Sarah's anxiety. 00:10:13.134 --> 00:10:16.294 He'd say things like, hey, I promise I'll never lie to you again. 00:10:16.634 --> 00:10:19.414 Or you can check all the accounts anytime you want, or I'll do whatever it takes 00:10:19.414 --> 00:10:22.634 to earn your trust back. Now, those sound like the right mouth sounds. 00:10:22.934 --> 00:10:26.074 They sound like good things to say, right? And they are good things, 00:10:26.074 --> 00:10:30.354 except when they aren't genuine, when they're just words designed to make the 00:10:30.354 --> 00:10:32.574 other person feel better so you can stop feeling so uncomfortable. 00:10:32.574 --> 00:10:37.034 Or if we're looking at the world of differentiation and David Schnarch's four 00:10:37.034 --> 00:10:40.914 points of balance, there is a concept where it sounds like he is taking ownership 00:10:40.914 --> 00:10:43.294 of his part and not projecting it onto Sarah. 00:10:43.434 --> 00:10:47.534 But there's a little extra part that I think is overlooked very often. 00:10:47.694 --> 00:10:52.554 And that is, but is he making meaningful effort for change or is he just saying the right things? 00:10:52.554 --> 00:10:58.974 And I believe he means it in the moment, but then once he says the right things and it feels good, 00:10:59.154 --> 00:11:03.334 then what does he do to make sure that this isn't going to happen again, 00:11:03.334 --> 00:11:08.574 as well as what role does Sarah play in being able to share her true emotions 00:11:08.574 --> 00:11:11.494 or feelings as well? And Sarah, she could feel it. 00:11:11.894 --> 00:11:17.254 She'd hear these promises and apologies. And after a few weeks or months where 00:11:17.254 --> 00:11:22.454 they sounded good, but then a day or two later, she was back to being upset. 00:11:22.934 --> 00:11:26.294 So now he would say them, but they would land flat. 00:11:26.974 --> 00:11:30.674 And she would say things like, I know you're just saying what I want to hear. 00:11:30.934 --> 00:11:34.934 Or she would look at me and say, he doesn't really feel bad about what he did. 00:11:34.934 --> 00:11:39.074 Or if he was truly sorry, it would sound and look a lot different than this. 00:11:39.554 --> 00:11:43.674 They would have these explosive conflicts, Sarah pushing for certainty and Mark 00:11:43.674 --> 00:11:46.034 giving calculated responses to manage her anxiety. 00:11:46.234 --> 00:11:51.134 And then boom, everything would blow up because his answers didn't sound good 00:11:51.134 --> 00:11:52.794 enough. They weren't enough. 00:11:53.474 --> 00:11:56.534 And probably because they weren't genuine. They weren't authentic. 00:11:56.674 --> 00:12:00.934 They weren't real. They weren't coming from a place of true confidence or him being grounded. 00:12:01.858 --> 00:12:04.758 And as we worked together over several months, we started identifying their 00:12:04.758 --> 00:12:08.778 patterns. And this is where the real work begins because you can't change what you don't see. 00:12:09.378 --> 00:12:11.818 Sarah started recognizing something about herself. She told me, 00:12:12.238 --> 00:12:16.898 okay, when I'm feeling apathetic toward our relationship, then I know now I 00:12:16.898 --> 00:12:18.938 withdraw, I shut down, I don't engage with them at all. 00:12:19.078 --> 00:12:23.018 But if I'm feeling hopeful when I think maybe we're going to get through this, 00:12:23.158 --> 00:12:26.198 then I try to connect and I'm happy and I suggest we go do something together 00:12:26.198 --> 00:12:30.378 and I'll try and talk through things. she was recognizing that she was oscillating 00:12:30.378 --> 00:12:33.198 between complete withdrawal and then attempts at connection. 00:12:33.638 --> 00:12:37.618 And it was entirely dependent on her mood, on her level of hope. 00:12:37.718 --> 00:12:42.838 And that could be dependent on what kind of day she had with the kids or with 00:12:42.838 --> 00:12:45.038 friends or just how she felt overall. 00:12:45.518 --> 00:12:49.318 When she felt discouraged, she was out. When she felt hopeful, she was in. 00:12:49.698 --> 00:12:55.578 And it was so wonderful, even though that doesn't sound so wonderful as far 00:12:55.578 --> 00:12:59.638 as how she was feeling, but for her to start to recognize this, 00:12:59.878 --> 00:13:01.778 that this is something that was happening. 00:13:02.578 --> 00:13:06.758 And it wasn't so that I could tell her she's doing it wrong or tell her, 00:13:06.918 --> 00:13:10.078 well, here's what you need to do. We first just had to say, this is happening. 00:13:10.438 --> 00:13:14.458 So when she shuts down, again, won't engage. When she's feeling hopeful, 00:13:14.738 --> 00:13:15.818 we're going to get through this. 00:13:16.598 --> 00:13:22.558 She was essentially riding a very, very unsteady emotional roller coaster. 00:13:22.818 --> 00:13:26.358 And Mark was right there along for the ride, whether he wanted to be or not. 00:13:26.718 --> 00:13:31.238 And then Mark, he started seeing his own pattern. He said something in one session 00:13:31.238 --> 00:13:32.138 that really stuck with me. 00:13:32.318 --> 00:13:36.098 He said, in those conversations when she's upset, it really does feel like what 00:13:36.098 --> 00:13:38.898 matters most to her is eliminating all uncertainty. 00:13:39.598 --> 00:13:42.598 So he said, I'll do this calculation, I guess, in my head. 00:13:43.178 --> 00:13:49.178 And things aren't really great right now. So the chances of me messing up financially aren't zero. 00:13:50.444 --> 00:13:55.984 I can't say that. So, I just try to say what I think will give her the clarity 00:13:55.984 --> 00:13:57.104 or the certainty she wants. 00:13:57.444 --> 00:14:01.364 I tell her what will make her feel better. Hopefully, you can see what he's doing there. 00:14:01.484 --> 00:14:07.204 He's using logic and this calculated way to share information with her to manage 00:14:07.204 --> 00:14:12.344 Sarah's emotions instead of just sharing his genuine thoughts and experiences and feelings. 00:14:12.784 --> 00:14:16.624 He's being a little bit more of a feelings manager instead of a partner. 00:14:16.924 --> 00:14:20.504 But let's talk about the breakthrough session, the session where everything 00:14:20.504 --> 00:14:23.984 truly shifted. And I want to be really clear as well. They didn't solve their 00:14:23.984 --> 00:14:24.884 problem in this session. 00:14:25.124 --> 00:14:28.644 Mark still couldn't guarantee with absolute certainty that he would never make 00:14:28.644 --> 00:14:29.964 another financial mistake again. 00:14:30.144 --> 00:14:35.704 And Sarah still wanted that. She said she still needed that guarantee to truly feel safe. 00:14:36.463 --> 00:14:39.983 But something fundamental changed. We're about 40 minutes into the session. 00:14:40.183 --> 00:14:44.343 We'd been going a little bit in circles. Sarah was saying that she needed to 00:14:44.343 --> 00:14:46.763 hear that Mark would never lie to her again. 00:14:46.923 --> 00:14:51.943 And she even said, you don't understand saying it to me and to him what that feels like. 00:14:52.023 --> 00:14:53.983 And she said, I guarantee I could pull somebody in off the street. 00:14:54.103 --> 00:14:55.283 They would get it. They would understand. 00:14:55.903 --> 00:14:59.083 But she said, I have to hear that he will never do it again. 00:14:59.223 --> 00:15:04.223 She wanted him to say that he was trustworthy, even though she didn't feel like he was. 00:15:04.683 --> 00:15:07.243 And Mark was still trying to find the right words, the right tone, 00:15:07.443 --> 00:15:09.143 the right level of emotion to convince her. 00:15:09.823 --> 00:15:13.763 And I stopped him. And I said something like, hey, Mark, what's happening for 00:15:13.763 --> 00:15:15.763 you right now as you're trying to respond to Sarah? 00:15:15.923 --> 00:15:18.423 And he paused and I could see him really thinking about it. And he said, 00:15:18.563 --> 00:15:21.343 I'm trying to figure out what to say that will make her feel better. 00:15:21.523 --> 00:15:25.643 I'm doing it again. I'm calculating how much emotion to show in hopes that she'll believe me. 00:15:25.723 --> 00:15:28.623 But the truth is, and he took a breath, he said, the truth is, 00:15:28.763 --> 00:15:32.283 I don't think the likelihood of me hiding money again is very high. 00:15:32.403 --> 00:15:35.983 I really don't. But I know I can't guarantee it won't happen again. 00:15:36.583 --> 00:15:42.103 I can't guarantee that I won't lie in some way to her again. 00:15:42.563 --> 00:15:46.643 I can't make that promise with absolute certainty. And the room got pretty quiet. 00:15:47.163 --> 00:15:50.923 And Sarah looked at him and said, oh, so you're saying you're going to do it again. 00:15:51.563 --> 00:15:54.703 And this is where Mark could have backtracked. And he could have said, 00:15:54.883 --> 00:15:56.223 no, that's not what I meant. 00:15:56.523 --> 00:15:59.103 He could have tried to soften it. He could have played the victim. 00:15:59.363 --> 00:16:03.823 He could have tried to manage her response just to make her feel better, but he didn't. 00:16:04.463 --> 00:16:08.423 And he said, what I'm saying is I'm a human being who makes mistakes. 00:16:08.963 --> 00:16:13.143 And I'm saying that what I can promise is to be honest with you going forward 00:16:13.143 --> 00:16:16.703 and to work on my own stuff that led me to hide things in the first place, 00:16:16.703 --> 00:16:20.283 to keep showing up to therapy, to keep having these hard conversations. 00:16:20.283 --> 00:16:22.383 So we hopefully don't get that disconnected again. 00:16:22.583 --> 00:16:25.603 But I know that But I can't promise perfect behavior forever. 00:16:25.823 --> 00:16:31.343 That's not realistic. And saying that it would be is actually another lie. 00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:35.530 And what did Sarah do? She didn't blow up. 00:16:36.050 --> 00:16:41.490 She didn't storm out. She said, okay, that's the first time that you've sounded 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:43.430 real to me since the whole thing started. 00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:47.110 And then I worried he was going to say first time. She said something that really 00:16:47.110 --> 00:16:48.970 showed how much work she'd been doing on her own. 00:16:49.550 --> 00:16:54.370 She said, I've been waiting for you to say the perfect thing that would make me feel safe again. 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:59.290 And I'm realizing that probably nothing that you're going to say is going to 00:16:59.290 --> 00:17:02.270 do that. You can't actually make me feel safe. 00:17:02.670 --> 00:17:07.910 I have to figure out how to feel safe, or at least how to be okay with not feeling completely safe. 00:17:09.150 --> 00:17:13.410 This was differentiation happening in real time. They were both being totally 00:17:13.410 --> 00:17:17.070 open and honest, and they were holding space for incompatible truths. 00:17:17.610 --> 00:17:22.870 Sarah still wanted and needed certainty, and Mark couldn't give it to her, and they were both okay. 00:17:23.110 --> 00:17:26.490 I mean, not okay, okay, but they were present with that reality, 00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:28.770 and they did not attack, and they didn't withdraw. 00:17:29.230 --> 00:17:33.250 They were owning their patterns. Sarah did something that really moved the conversation 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:35.710 forward. She started talking about her own contribution to the dynamic. 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:39.330 And I really want to be clear, I'm not talking about her taking responsibility 00:17:39.330 --> 00:17:42.830 for Mark's choices, the financial deception, that was his responsibility. 00:17:42.890 --> 00:17:46.710 But she started talking about the pattern that she'd brought into the relationship 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:49.610 that made it harder for Mark to be honest with her. 00:17:49.990 --> 00:17:54.270 She said, I really didn't understand how much pressure that you felt to be perfect. 00:17:54.730 --> 00:17:57.590 When you'd have a setback at work or when something didn't go the way you planned, 00:17:57.730 --> 00:17:59.650 we get an extra bill, something would come up. 00:18:00.446 --> 00:18:04.386 She said, I get anxious and I make it about us, about me, about our security, 00:18:04.706 --> 00:18:06.226 about how frightened I was. 00:18:06.366 --> 00:18:10.486 I would catastrophize and you would shut down and you couldn't talk to me about 00:18:10.486 --> 00:18:12.066 your stress without me adding to it. 00:18:12.886 --> 00:18:16.106 And Mark was just listening and you could see him take it in. 00:18:16.646 --> 00:18:20.266 And I have to tell you quick there, but side note, I wanted to say something in that moment. 00:18:20.446 --> 00:18:23.166 Look at how good you guys are doing. And I realized, oh, that's me wanting to 00:18:23.166 --> 00:18:24.986 jump in and get a little validation myself. 00:18:25.566 --> 00:18:30.906 We just let Sarah go and continue to talk. And she said, I'm starting to understand. 00:18:30.906 --> 00:18:35.086 I'm not saying it excuses what you did, but I understand how you got to a place 00:18:35.086 --> 00:18:39.426 where hiding things felt probably easier than facing my anxiety on top of your own. 00:18:39.686 --> 00:18:44.286 And I'm really sorry for how that dynamic was. I can't imagine what that would have been like. 00:18:44.626 --> 00:18:48.146 And this is what taking ownership without requiring reciprocation looks like. 00:18:48.246 --> 00:18:51.286 It's not, hey, I'm sorry. And then, oh, no, I am too. 00:18:51.786 --> 00:18:54.746 She wasn't saying, I did this. So now you have to acknowledge what you did. 00:18:54.866 --> 00:18:57.146 She was just saying what was true for her. 00:18:57.806 --> 00:19:01.306 And Mark didn't immediately jump in with his own apology or acknowledgement. 00:19:01.306 --> 00:19:04.726 He just said, thank you for saying that. It means a whole lot to hear. 00:19:05.206 --> 00:19:08.766 No calculation, no performance. That was a genuine response. 00:19:09.306 --> 00:19:11.626 Now, later in the session, we got into something really uncomfortable. 00:19:11.786 --> 00:19:13.766 And Sarah said, I want to be honest about something though. 00:19:13.906 --> 00:19:17.266 When you apologize to me, it really doesn't land. I hear the words, 00:19:17.406 --> 00:19:18.846 but it doesn't feel real. 00:19:18.846 --> 00:19:22.386 And I've been sitting here thinking that you don't actually feel bad about what you did. 00:19:22.386 --> 00:19:27.666 And now I knew from our previous sessions that Mark had apologized a few different 00:19:27.666 --> 00:19:30.526 times. I had heard it myself because yes, I've been in sessions, 00:19:30.726 --> 00:19:34.926 plenty of sessions where somebody literally cannot apologize, but Mark had. 00:19:35.672 --> 00:19:38.812 So, then I just gently point this out. I said, Sarah, I have actually heard 00:19:38.812 --> 00:19:39.852 Mark apologize in our session. 00:19:39.872 --> 00:19:45.192 So, I'm wondering if you are hearing that or if maybe the issue isn't whether 00:19:45.192 --> 00:19:49.792 he's apologized, but whether his apology sounds the way that you need it to sound. 00:19:50.392 --> 00:19:54.492 And Sarah sat with that for a moment and then she nodded. She's like, yeah, probably. 00:19:55.392 --> 00:19:58.732 Yeah, he has said, sorry. Yeah, I've heard that, but it doesn't sound, 00:19:58.892 --> 00:20:04.092 she said, I don't know, emotional enough, big enough. It doesn't seem like he really cares. 00:20:04.652 --> 00:20:09.352 And I brought up the concept from emotional maturity of if I feel it, it is true. 00:20:10.072 --> 00:20:14.712 And she did not think that it was serious. So then therefore it wasn't. 00:20:14.832 --> 00:20:16.712 And now he needed to prove to her that he was serious. 00:20:17.252 --> 00:20:21.992 But again, she doesn't even really know what it's going to take to have her feel that way. 00:20:22.192 --> 00:20:26.272 And he thought he was explaining himself or apologizing. 00:20:26.532 --> 00:20:29.752 Again, get those tap shoes on and start dancing and see if you can get it right. 00:20:29.912 --> 00:20:35.032 But she said, I really need him to feel it. And Mark said something that was honest and vulnerable. 00:20:35.312 --> 00:20:38.292 He said, this is genuinely how I express remorse. 00:20:38.932 --> 00:20:42.672 I don't know how else to do it. I've tried, but he said, I'm really not a big 00:20:42.672 --> 00:20:47.352 emotional guy. I don't cry easily, but that doesn't mean I don't feel terrible about what I did. 00:20:47.452 --> 00:20:49.752 It just means I express it differently than I think what you're expecting. 00:20:51.165 --> 00:20:54.305 And then Sarah said something that I think is really at the heart of what they've been struggling with. 00:20:54.745 --> 00:20:59.125 She said, okay, I guess what I probably want is for you to sit there and take 00:20:59.125 --> 00:21:00.605 it until all my anger is out of me. 00:21:00.805 --> 00:21:03.825 And I want you to feel as bad as I feel. And I want you to hurt the way I hurt. 00:21:03.945 --> 00:21:05.505 And I want you to do that until I feel better. 00:21:06.025 --> 00:21:08.805 And I just let that one land for a little bit. And I just said, 00:21:09.025 --> 00:21:10.785 man, Sarah, thank you so much. 00:21:10.865 --> 00:21:14.685 Because what you're describing sounds to me like you're wanting Mark to manage 00:21:14.685 --> 00:21:18.505 your emotions. If you can dump them all off onto him, then you're hoping you'll 00:21:18.505 --> 00:21:22.885 feel better. You're wanting him to absorb all your pain until you don't have to feel it anymore. 00:21:23.465 --> 00:21:27.045 And I can understand why you would want that. Who wouldn't want that in hopes 00:21:27.045 --> 00:21:28.405 that it would take all that pain away? 00:21:28.865 --> 00:21:32.685 But I don't think that's something that he can do. And I don't really believe 00:21:32.685 --> 00:21:34.945 that anybody can do that for another person. 00:21:35.285 --> 00:21:40.625 And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what a moment here. And then she starts to get upset, starts to cry. 00:21:41.125 --> 00:21:45.345 But then she said, so I guess I just have to sit with this pain forever. 00:21:45.525 --> 00:21:49.945 I have to accept that. and said, oh, no, thank you so much for sharing that. 00:21:50.505 --> 00:21:54.525 You don't have to accept it. But yeah, you do need to sit with it. 00:21:54.765 --> 00:21:57.785 You do have to feel it, make room for it. 00:21:58.425 --> 00:22:01.545 And here's the thing. Mark can be present with you while you feel it. 00:22:01.605 --> 00:22:04.985 He can witness it. He can validate it. He can stay connected to you through it. 00:22:06.181 --> 00:22:09.741 He can't take it away. And this is where we get to the real work of differentiation. 00:22:10.201 --> 00:22:13.141 They were both starting to understand something profound. And it is something 00:22:13.141 --> 00:22:16.621 I just want couples to really get to embody, to understand. 00:22:17.161 --> 00:22:21.301 Intimate connection doesn't come from partners meeting all of each other's needs. 00:22:21.721 --> 00:22:25.481 It comes from the courage to be honest about what you think, 00:22:25.541 --> 00:22:28.481 what you feel, what you did, what you need, what you can offer. 00:22:28.721 --> 00:22:33.641 And then that gap between them while staying present with each other through 00:22:33.641 --> 00:22:35.881 the discomfort, not attacking, not withdrawing. 00:22:36.881 --> 00:22:39.901 Sarah still said she needed absolute certainty that Mark would never deceive 00:22:39.901 --> 00:22:44.561 her again. Mark could not give her that certainty without lying, without performing. 00:22:44.941 --> 00:22:48.641 Those are incompatible truths. And they were learning to hold both of those 00:22:48.641 --> 00:22:52.681 truths simultaneously without one of them collapsing into the other person's 00:22:52.681 --> 00:22:53.981 position just to make them feel good. 00:22:54.461 --> 00:22:57.881 Sarah wasn't saying, okay, I guess I'll just accept the fact that you might lie to me again. 00:22:58.001 --> 00:23:02.061 And Mark wasn't saying, I promise I will never make another mistake ever for 00:23:02.061 --> 00:23:05.441 the rest of my life. They were both holding their ground, speaking their truth, 00:23:05.681 --> 00:23:06.741 staying in the relationship. 00:23:07.738 --> 00:23:10.638 Later in the session, I asked them to reflect on what had been different about 00:23:10.638 --> 00:23:12.418 this conversation compared to the previous ones. 00:23:12.678 --> 00:23:15.678 And Mark said, okay, I stopped trying to find the right answer. 00:23:15.778 --> 00:23:19.798 I stopped calculating what would make Sarah feel better. And I just said what was true. 00:23:20.558 --> 00:23:24.018 And Sarah said, I stopped pretending that if he just said the right thing, I'd feel okay. 00:23:24.418 --> 00:23:29.738 I guess I faced the fact that I'm not okay, but that's where I'm at right now. 00:23:30.198 --> 00:23:34.938 And they were recognizing that their reactive patterns were there and they were 00:23:34.938 --> 00:23:36.698 making space for him. They didn't have to get rid of him. 00:23:37.278 --> 00:23:41.238 They didn't have to defend them. But they weren't saying, I do this because you do that. 00:23:41.338 --> 00:23:45.778 They were saying, this is what is happening. This is what I'm doing. This is how I'm feeling. 00:23:46.158 --> 00:23:52.298 And Mark could then see how he'd been using logic and this managing of her emotions 00:23:52.298 --> 00:23:57.578 to avoid genuine vulnerability because he was so terrified of that criticism. 00:23:58.178 --> 00:24:01.698 And Sarah could see how she'd been oscillating between withdrawal and pursuit 00:24:01.698 --> 00:24:06.138 based on however she felt that day. and they both noticed how exhausting that 00:24:06.138 --> 00:24:07.438 had been for both of them. 00:24:08.215 --> 00:24:11.195 And near the end of the session, Mark said something that I thought really captured the shift. 00:24:11.375 --> 00:24:15.915 He said, okay, Sarah, I realize now I'm genuinely sorry for deceiving you about 00:24:15.915 --> 00:24:17.315 our finances. I really am. 00:24:17.435 --> 00:24:23.655 I made choices that I had good reason for, but I broke your trust and I'm going 00:24:23.655 --> 00:24:25.495 to own that completely and I can't undo it. 00:24:25.875 --> 00:24:29.055 And I know I can't promise perfect behavior going forward, but I will promise 00:24:29.055 --> 00:24:31.495 to keep showing up, to keep being honest, even if it's uncomfortable. 00:24:31.855 --> 00:24:37.035 And if you think something's off, I would love for you to come to me and ask, 00:24:37.155 --> 00:24:38.455 and I will make space for that. 00:24:38.595 --> 00:24:42.015 I'll do my best to not be reactive or defensive because he said, 00:24:42.095 --> 00:24:45.935 I want to work on those parts of himself that led him to hide things in the first place. 00:24:46.315 --> 00:24:50.075 And Sarah said, that is probably the first apology that's felt real to me. 00:24:50.175 --> 00:24:53.415 And again, I worried that he would take offense to that and say, 00:24:53.515 --> 00:24:57.495 that's not the first one, but he sat with that. That was her experience in that moment. 00:24:57.875 --> 00:24:59.955 And she said, because you're not promising to fix everything, 00:25:00.075 --> 00:25:00.735 you're just being honest. 00:25:01.275 --> 00:25:04.235 So what does all that mean? What can we take from Mark and Sarah's breakthrough? 00:25:04.935 --> 00:25:10.015 First, recognize the managing of your partner's emotions, that that's not the same as loving them. 00:25:10.355 --> 00:25:12.715 When you're calculating what to say to make them feel better, 00:25:12.895 --> 00:25:15.315 you're not being genuine and your partner can feel that. 00:25:15.875 --> 00:25:20.315 Now let's get into the woo-woo energy vibes that I'm so enjoying as a couples therapist. 00:25:20.335 --> 00:25:24.795 If somebody is operating from a place of authenticity and vulnerability and 00:25:24.795 --> 00:25:28.595 being, this is what I am thinking and feeling, turns out you can stay a little 00:25:28.595 --> 00:25:31.695 more grounded because this is what you're thinking. This is how you're feeling. 00:25:32.972 --> 00:25:36.212 Because if you're trying to find the right thing to say, your partner might 00:25:36.212 --> 00:25:41.112 not be able to articulate what is off, but they know something's off. They feel it. 00:25:41.852 --> 00:25:45.872 Second, your patterns make sense. If you're withdrawing when you feel hopeless 00:25:45.872 --> 00:25:47.912 and pursuing when you feel hopeful, it's not wrong. 00:25:48.192 --> 00:25:51.652 It's just important to notice it. We have to identify it. If you're using logic 00:25:51.652 --> 00:25:53.632 to avoid vulnerability, not bad. 00:25:54.172 --> 00:25:57.872 It's just something to start to notice and understand. And third, 00:25:58.172 --> 00:26:01.952 you really can't make your partner okay with uncomfortable truths. 00:26:02.612 --> 00:26:06.352 Sarah couldn't make Mark promise perfect behavior and Mark couldn't make Sarah 00:26:06.352 --> 00:26:10.412 feel safe through words alone. And that's actually okay. It's not failure. It's a reality. 00:26:10.872 --> 00:26:16.392 One of the questions I get asked often, I've had it several times today in therapy, 00:26:16.592 --> 00:26:19.752 is somebody saying, hey, how do I say this so that my wife won't get mad? 00:26:20.152 --> 00:26:24.332 And I say, oh, you can't. And at first they think, well, you must not have understood the question. 00:26:24.752 --> 00:26:29.312 But it's, I need to say this thing and then allow my wife to feel the way she's 00:26:29.312 --> 00:26:31.812 going to feel and then be able to stay in the conversation. 00:26:32.352 --> 00:26:35.692 Or if you're finding yourself saying, man, I don't want to say this because 00:26:35.692 --> 00:26:37.552 I don't want this person to think this about me. 00:26:37.752 --> 00:26:41.672 Well, I'm actually managing their emotions. I'm not even giving them a chance to feel. 00:26:42.152 --> 00:26:47.132 Now, if somebody still wants to do that, it's a thing. It's okay. 00:26:47.312 --> 00:26:50.612 But then accept the fact that you're not allowing that person to have their 00:26:50.612 --> 00:26:55.312 own emotional experience and you're not allowing them to truly know you of what 00:26:55.312 --> 00:26:56.532 you're thinking or how you're feeling. 00:26:56.932 --> 00:27:01.352 Fourth, genuine intimacy requires the capacity to hold incompatible truths. 00:27:01.352 --> 00:27:04.452 Sarah needs certainty. Mark can't provide absolute certainty. 00:27:04.692 --> 00:27:07.452 Both of those things can be true and they can stay in the relationship. 00:27:07.672 --> 00:27:08.572 Whole object relations. 00:27:08.692 --> 00:27:13.212 I can view myself. I can be my partner in the relationship all as an entire entity. 00:27:13.472 --> 00:27:17.232 So I can love things about it and I can be frustrated about things about it 00:27:17.232 --> 00:27:18.992 and we can still have a relationship. 00:27:19.946 --> 00:27:24.226 And last, taking ownership of your patterns doesn't require reciprocation. 00:27:24.726 --> 00:27:27.446 When Sarah acknowledged how her anxiety contributed their dynamic, 00:27:27.666 --> 00:27:30.386 she wasn't doing it to get Mark to reciprocate. 00:27:30.586 --> 00:27:35.546 She was doing it because it was true. It was how she felt. It was what she was 00:27:35.546 --> 00:27:38.006 recognizing. And that actually freed both of them. 00:27:38.746 --> 00:27:40.986 Mark and Sarah didn't leave that session with their problem solved. 00:27:41.106 --> 00:27:42.486 They're still working on rebuilding trust. 00:27:42.606 --> 00:27:44.966 And I thought it would be really funny to do an epilogue now and say, 00:27:45.066 --> 00:27:47.486 you know, a few weeks later, went right back to the same old patterns. 00:27:47.626 --> 00:27:50.126 Now they're not doing so great. But that's not necessarily the case. 00:27:50.586 --> 00:27:53.366 But Sarah still has days where she's triggered by anything financial. 00:27:53.546 --> 00:27:56.606 And Mark still has moments where he wants to hide his stress instead of sharing 00:27:56.606 --> 00:27:58.826 it. But they have something they didn't have before. 00:27:59.446 --> 00:28:03.306 Honesty or the framework to get there too. And not the kind of honesty that's 00:28:03.306 --> 00:28:06.086 designed to manage emotions, but the kind that creates genuine connection, 00:28:06.266 --> 00:28:07.726 even if it's uncomfortable at times. 00:28:08.026 --> 00:28:11.046 They're learning to stay present with each other through the discomfort instead 00:28:11.046 --> 00:28:12.366 of trying to eliminate the discomfort. 00:28:12.566 --> 00:28:16.806 They're learning that I can't guarantee that is sometimes more loving than I 00:28:16.806 --> 00:28:20.766 promise. And they're learning that their job isn't to make each other okay, 00:28:20.986 --> 00:28:24.846 it's to stay connected while each of them does their own work of becoming okay. 00:28:26.013 --> 00:28:30.333 I've got a bonus section that I think you'll enjoy, but before I get to that, 00:28:30.533 --> 00:28:32.613 a little reflection from what I've shared, 00:28:32.813 --> 00:28:38.373 I would love to ask some questions and have you consider these in your own relationship 00:28:38.373 --> 00:28:42.053 and reach out to me and let me know your answers. And I want to cover those on an upcoming episode. 00:28:42.573 --> 00:28:45.473 Where are you managing your partner's emotions instead of speaking your truth? 00:28:45.653 --> 00:28:48.553 Give me your examples. And what patterns do you see in yourself, 00:28:48.553 --> 00:28:50.253 but you continue to defend? 00:28:50.813 --> 00:28:54.773 And what truth about your relationship feels impossible to accept? 00:28:55.473 --> 00:28:59.033 And then how might honesty, even uncomfortable honesty, create more genuine 00:28:59.033 --> 00:29:02.573 intimacy than emotional management ever could? Or do you, yeah, but that? 00:29:02.813 --> 00:29:06.493 Is it hard to even understand what that could look like? And that's okay. 00:29:07.293 --> 00:29:10.753 And can you identify times when your engagement in the relationship shifts based 00:29:10.753 --> 00:29:15.773 on your hope levels, how you're feeling that day, whether you had a bad ice cream sundae or not? 00:29:15.893 --> 00:29:18.693 When you receive an apology or an acknowledgement that you've asked for, 00:29:18.793 --> 00:29:20.713 does it sometimes still leave you feeling unsatisfied? 00:29:20.973 --> 00:29:24.633 And if so, that's okay. Kind of normal. because that's, oh, I think this is 00:29:24.633 --> 00:29:25.593 what I would need to feel better. 00:29:25.693 --> 00:29:31.273 But that person's now finally able to try and give that to you and it may not feel good. 00:29:31.433 --> 00:29:33.753 And then you have to have the courage to say, oh man, I thought that that would 00:29:33.753 --> 00:29:35.953 clear everything up. It didn't though. Check that out. 00:29:36.393 --> 00:29:40.253 The goal isn't to eliminate relationship discomfort. 00:29:40.473 --> 00:29:43.953 The goal is to increase your capacity to stay connected to yourself and your 00:29:43.953 --> 00:29:47.673 partner while navigating that discomfort because that's where real intimacy lives. 00:29:48.053 --> 00:29:51.053 Not in the absence of problems, but in the presence of honesty. 00:29:52.030 --> 00:29:55.670 Okay, so before we wrap up today, I do want to give you a bonus section because 00:29:55.670 --> 00:29:59.630 I got such incredible feedback from the two-part series I did on the origin 00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:01.990 stories of the anxious and avoidant attached. 00:30:02.350 --> 00:30:05.630 And especially around the concept of co-regulation and relationships that I 00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:06.630 thought, okay, you know what? 00:30:06.790 --> 00:30:10.370 Let me give you a little more because I want to show you theoretically how Mark 00:30:10.370 --> 00:30:13.070 and Sarah could have gotten to this breakthrough point. 00:30:13.070 --> 00:30:21.150 And if you are coming off of those last two episodes, the role of Jack in the 00:30:21.150 --> 00:30:25.770 two-part episode will be played by Mark and the role of Jill will be played by Sarah. 00:30:26.010 --> 00:30:30.270 Because I really think understanding co-regulation helps explain why the progress 00:30:30.270 --> 00:30:35.190 that they made in couples therapy was so significant. So let's start with where 00:30:35.190 --> 00:30:36.210 this concept comes from. 00:30:36.390 --> 00:30:38.790 The term co-regulation was really brought 00:30:38.790 --> 00:30:42.670 in the mainstream by a couple of researchers, a guy named Ed Tronick. 00:30:43.070 --> 00:30:46.630 And some of his colleagues in the late 1980s and early 1990s, 00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:49.910 which shows my age because I want to say, so it wasn't that long ago because 00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:51.490 that's when I was getting out of high school. 00:30:51.870 --> 00:30:54.650 But if we're talking about the foundational work, we go all the way back to 00:30:54.650 --> 00:30:58.250 Mary Ainsworth and her strange situation experiments back in the 1970s. 00:30:58.630 --> 00:31:02.890 And then you've got John Bowlby and his work with attachment theory back in 00:31:02.890 --> 00:31:03.930 the fifties and the sixties. 00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:08.010 But what's fascinating, the specific mechanics of co-regulation, 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:12.930 the moment to moment dance of this emotional attunement between parent and child 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:16.030 really came into focus through Ed Tronick's work. 00:31:16.130 --> 00:31:19.110 He did this famous experiment called the still face experiment. 00:31:19.150 --> 00:31:23.330 And if you've never seen the video, I kind of recommend that you go look it 00:31:23.330 --> 00:31:25.690 up on YouTube. It's fascinating, but it's also heartbreaking. 00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:29.490 It's one of those where I don't know if it would be something that people would 00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:32.370 do today. So here's what happens. A mom is playing with her baby. 00:31:32.610 --> 00:31:36.910 Let's say the baby's six months old and the mom is engaged and smiling and talking 00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:40.750 and responding to the baby's coos and movements and the baby's happy and engaged 00:31:40.750 --> 00:31:42.630 and reaching out and everything looks great. 00:31:43.325 --> 00:31:48.185 Until. But then the researcher asked the mom to turn away briefly and then turn 00:31:48.185 --> 00:31:50.725 back with a completely neutral expressionless face. 00:31:50.885 --> 00:31:53.345 And I don't think I could do it without laughing, first of all. 00:31:53.765 --> 00:31:59.805 But she turns back, no smiling, no talking, no responding, just a blank face looking at the baby. 00:32:00.165 --> 00:32:03.765 And then if you find the video, watch what happens. The baby immediately tries 00:32:03.765 --> 00:32:08.665 to get the mom to re-engage and the baby smiles bigger and coos louder and reaches out. 00:32:08.825 --> 00:32:11.765 And when that doesn't work, the baby starts to get distressed. 00:32:11.765 --> 00:32:15.445 And so they might start crying and arching their back and looking away and then 00:32:15.445 --> 00:32:17.625 looking back to check and see if mom's face has changed. 00:32:18.125 --> 00:32:22.365 And what you're watching is the baby trying to desperately co-regulate. 00:32:22.565 --> 00:32:25.305 The baby's nervous system is dysregulated, meaning it's in distress. 00:32:25.925 --> 00:32:30.605 And the baby is doing everything it knows how to do to get the mom to help regulate those emotions. 00:32:31.185 --> 00:32:35.285 And when the mom is finally allowed to re-engage, when her face lights up again, 00:32:35.425 --> 00:32:38.485 when she responds, the baby kind of needs a moment. 00:32:38.805 --> 00:32:41.685 There's a brief period where the baby's almost suspicious. check in to make 00:32:41.685 --> 00:32:46.065 sure if it's real and then relief and the baby settles and the nervous system 00:32:46.065 --> 00:32:48.165 regulates and connection is restored. 00:32:48.545 --> 00:32:53.545 So here's what co-regulation is. It's this process by which one person's regulated 00:32:53.545 --> 00:32:57.545 nervous system helps regulate another person's dysregulated nervous system. 00:32:57.725 --> 00:33:01.545 So when we're talking about in infancy and in childhood, this happens through 00:33:01.545 --> 00:33:04.485 what researchers call serve and return. 00:33:04.965 --> 00:33:08.145 I'm thinking tennis or maybe more applicable now, pickleball, 00:33:08.385 --> 00:33:12.405 the baby cries, there's a serve, and the caregiver responds with soothing. There's a return. 00:33:12.605 --> 00:33:16.325 The baby's system begins to calm. The cycle repeats thousands and thousands of times. 00:33:16.645 --> 00:33:20.505 And when this works consistently, when the caregiver is attuned and responsive 00:33:20.505 --> 00:33:23.585 most of the time, the child's nervous system learns something crucial. 00:33:23.725 --> 00:33:26.025 When I'm dysregulated, connection helps. 00:33:26.225 --> 00:33:29.125 Other people can help me feel safe and my emotions are manageable and, 00:33:29.705 --> 00:33:32.785 Here's the key, and this is where it connects to Mark and Sarah's story. 00:33:33.025 --> 00:33:38.005 The child is also learning to self-regulate by internalizing these co-regulation experiences. 00:33:38.265 --> 00:33:40.625 It's like the child's nervous system is learning the rhythm, 00:33:40.865 --> 00:33:45.725 the pattern, the dance, the pathway that goes from dysregulation back to regulation. 00:33:46.225 --> 00:33:48.545 But let's talk about when co-regulation fails. 00:33:49.205 --> 00:33:53.545 If you remember from this episode before, and you can reach out, 00:33:53.645 --> 00:33:55.765 I've got a cheat sheet, contact me through my website. 00:33:56.325 --> 00:33:59.685 But I talk about Mark's childhood. 00:33:59.845 --> 00:34:03.665 Well, it's Jack's childhood. So the role of Jack in this previous episode is 00:34:03.665 --> 00:34:08.265 now being played by Mark, but he had a critical abusive dad and an emotionally withdrawn mom. 00:34:08.625 --> 00:34:12.285 Think about what that meant for co-regulation. When Mark was distressed as a 00:34:12.285 --> 00:34:15.185 child, when his nervous system was dysregulated, what happened? 00:34:15.325 --> 00:34:19.145 If he showed his distress to his dad, he got criticized or dismissed. 00:34:19.585 --> 00:34:24.345 Man up, stop being weak. His dad's response did not regulate Mark's nervous system. 00:34:24.445 --> 00:34:28.865 It actually dysregulated it further and it added shame and fear on top of whatever 00:34:28.865 --> 00:34:29.885 Mark was already feeling. 00:34:30.345 --> 00:34:34.445 If he showed his distress to his mom, she withdrew. She was not equipped to 00:34:34.445 --> 00:34:36.485 handle his emotions because she could handle her own. 00:34:36.765 --> 00:34:40.925 And her withdrawal communicated, hey, your emotions are too much and I cannot help you with this. 00:34:41.285 --> 00:34:44.545 So Mark's nervous system learned something devastating in childhood. 00:34:44.705 --> 00:34:46.525 When I'm dysregulated, connection makes it worse. 00:34:46.725 --> 00:34:51.005 Other people are either dangerous or unavailable and I have to handle my emotions 00:34:51.005 --> 00:34:55.165 all by myself. And this is why Mark developed an avoidant attachment style, 00:34:55.225 --> 00:34:57.545 not a character flaw. It was an adaptation. 00:34:57.905 --> 00:35:02.705 His nervous system learned that the safest strategy was self-regulation through 00:35:02.705 --> 00:35:06.045 disconnection, sitting this one out, shutting down the emotions, 00:35:06.205 --> 00:35:08.405 withdrawing from people, handling everything alone. 00:35:08.725 --> 00:35:13.885 And then look over at Sarah and here's her origin story when co-regulation is unpredictable. 00:35:15.346 --> 00:35:18.806 She had an anxious, depressed mom. So when Sarah was distressed, 00:35:18.986 --> 00:35:22.026 when her nervous system needed co-regulation, sometimes her mom was responsive. 00:35:22.186 --> 00:35:25.666 Sometimes she wasn't. Sometimes Sarah's distress would cause her mom to completely fall apart. 00:35:25.826 --> 00:35:30.586 And now Sarah, as a kid, was managing her mom's dysregulation on top of her own. 00:35:31.407 --> 00:35:35.267 And this is inconsistent caregiving. And it's incredibly confusing for a child's 00:35:35.267 --> 00:35:37.827 development and their little developing nervous system. 00:35:38.087 --> 00:35:40.387 So Sarah's nervous system learned connection. 00:35:40.707 --> 00:35:43.507 Actually, it's unstable. And sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. 00:35:43.627 --> 00:35:47.207 Sometimes it makes things worse. And I can't predict which. I don't know which 00:35:47.207 --> 00:35:50.607 version of people are going to show up for me. So I have to stay vigilant. 00:35:51.087 --> 00:35:56.947 I have to work really hard to keep people engaged because they may disappear at any moment. 00:35:57.347 --> 00:35:59.727 And this is why Sarah developed an anxious attachment style. 00:35:59.727 --> 00:36:03.907 Her nervous system learned that the only strategy was hypervigilance and pursuit. 00:36:04.147 --> 00:36:08.387 Keep people close, monitor their emotional state, constantly try harder when 00:36:08.387 --> 00:36:09.347 connection feels threatened. 00:36:09.667 --> 00:36:12.647 Keep doing, you're a human doing, not a human being. 00:36:12.967 --> 00:36:16.767 So now you got the anxious avoidant trap. Here's where it gets so fascinating. 00:36:16.947 --> 00:36:20.087 When Mark and Sarah came together as adults, their nervous systems were actually 00:36:20.087 --> 00:36:22.387 playing out these childhood co-regulation patterns. 00:36:22.587 --> 00:36:26.127 When Sarah was dysregulated, when she discovered the financial betrayal and 00:36:26.127 --> 00:36:28.647 her nervous system went into threat mode, what did she need? 00:36:28.647 --> 00:36:30.107 She needed co-regulation. 00:36:30.307 --> 00:36:32.947 She needed Mark's regulated nervous system to help calm hers. 00:36:33.027 --> 00:36:38.067 She needed him to stay present and attuned and connected while she processed 00:36:38.067 --> 00:36:40.827 the enormous stress that she was experiencing. But what happened? 00:36:41.127 --> 00:36:44.627 Mark withdrew because his nervous system learned that other people's dysregulation 00:36:44.627 --> 00:36:46.207 is really scary and dangerous. 00:36:46.427 --> 00:36:49.447 So when Sarah showed her distress, Mark's system said, threat, 00:36:49.707 --> 00:36:50.687 protect yourself, disconnect. 00:36:51.227 --> 00:36:55.347 And when Mark withdrew, what happened to Sarah? Her dysregulation intensified 00:36:55.347 --> 00:36:58.967 because her nervous system learned that withdrawal means abandonment. 00:36:59.167 --> 00:37:01.427 Her system said connection is disappearing. 00:37:01.847 --> 00:37:05.787 Get it, pursue it, go after it, get him to engage however you can. 00:37:06.307 --> 00:37:10.907 So Sarah pursued harder, which made Mark withdraw further, which made Sarah 00:37:10.907 --> 00:37:13.527 pursue harder and neither of them could co-regulate. 00:37:13.727 --> 00:37:17.707 They were stuck in a pattern where each person's attempt to regulate their own 00:37:17.707 --> 00:37:20.807 nervous system was dysregulating the other person's nervous system. 00:37:21.227 --> 00:37:24.387 This is the anxious avoidant trap in neurobiological terms. 00:37:24.567 --> 00:37:27.287 And it's not about bad communication or different personalities. 00:37:27.287 --> 00:37:31.027 It's about two nervous systems that learn incompatible strategies for regulation. 00:37:31.267 --> 00:37:33.387 Now they're triggering each other's deepest wounds. 00:37:34.251 --> 00:37:37.291 So what changed in that session where Mark and Sarah had their breakthrough 00:37:37.291 --> 00:37:42.511 and what made it different is where the co-regulation piece started to show up. 00:37:42.891 --> 00:37:47.211 First, they both started staying present with their own dysregulation instead 00:37:47.211 --> 00:37:50.791 of immediately trying to get rid of it, stuff it, bring it up in an immature way. 00:37:50.951 --> 00:37:55.091 When Sarah was distressed about not feeling safe, instead of immediately pursuing 00:37:55.091 --> 00:37:57.471 Mark to make her feel better, she stayed with her own discomfort. 00:37:57.611 --> 00:38:00.891 She said, I need certainty and you can't give it to me. 00:38:01.191 --> 00:38:04.611 She acknowledged her dysregulation without demanding Mark fix it. 00:38:04.991 --> 00:38:08.731 And when Mark felt the pressure of Sarah's need for certainty, 00:38:08.791 --> 00:38:12.011 instead of immediately withdrawing or giving a calculated answer to make her 00:38:12.011 --> 00:38:15.871 go away, he stayed present and he said, I can't promise perfection. 00:38:16.231 --> 00:38:20.111 And saying, if I could, it would be another lie. So he stayed in connection 00:38:20.111 --> 00:38:21.471 even while setting a boundary. 00:38:21.731 --> 00:38:25.831 And this is what adult co-regulation looks like. And it's different from childhood co-regulation. 00:38:26.071 --> 00:38:29.191 In childhood, the caregiver's job is to regulate the child's nervous system 00:38:29.191 --> 00:38:30.931 because the child can't do it alone yet. 00:38:31.151 --> 00:38:35.171 The child is dependent on external regulation. But in adult relationships, 00:38:35.371 --> 00:38:39.291 co-regulation is about staying in connection while each person does their own 00:38:39.291 --> 00:38:40.451 work of self-regulation. 00:38:40.651 --> 00:38:44.171 It's about being present to each other's emotional experience without trying 00:38:44.171 --> 00:38:47.091 to manage it or without being consumed by it, without shutting down. 00:38:47.231 --> 00:38:50.751 And this is where it gets to be pretty fun to be a therapist because I think 00:38:50.751 --> 00:38:56.011 it's important and why people need a third party, why they need a good couples therapist. 00:38:56.831 --> 00:39:00.951 Because as a therapist, part of what I was doing was providing a regulated nervous 00:39:00.951 --> 00:39:03.531 system that both of them could latch onto for a little bit. 00:39:03.971 --> 00:39:06.671 When Sarah was expressing her pain and Mark was starting to shut down, 00:39:06.871 --> 00:39:08.971 it's my job to stay calm and curious. 00:39:09.791 --> 00:39:13.831 And I don't necessarily get activated by Sarah's intensity or frustrated by 00:39:13.831 --> 00:39:15.851 Mark's withdrawal. I noticed those things. I'm a. 00:39:17.877 --> 00:39:21.437 My regulated state was helping create, we'll call it a container, 00:39:21.737 --> 00:39:24.357 where both of them could feel safe enough to stay in the discomfort. 00:39:24.577 --> 00:39:28.857 This is why therapy can be so powerful for individuals and mainly for couples. 00:39:29.037 --> 00:39:31.397 Not mainly, and especially for couples. 00:39:31.737 --> 00:39:35.777 It's not just about learning skills or insights or my beloved four pillars of 00:39:35.777 --> 00:39:37.357 a connected conversation of how to communicate. 00:39:37.537 --> 00:39:41.537 It's about experiencing co-regulation in a new way with a third person's regulated 00:39:41.537 --> 00:39:45.177 nervous system helping both partners stay present when their own systems are 00:39:45.177 --> 00:39:47.717 screaming at them to fight, flee, or freeze. 00:39:48.357 --> 00:39:51.537 So in that, what I'm going to call breakthrough session, here's what happened 00:39:51.537 --> 00:39:53.017 at the nervous system level. 00:39:53.777 --> 00:39:56.977 Sarah's anxious attachment system was signaling danger. He's not giving you 00:39:56.977 --> 00:39:58.137 what you need. Pursue harder. 00:39:58.297 --> 00:40:02.217 But instead of automatically following that impulse, Sarah was able to observe it. 00:40:02.397 --> 00:40:05.557 She could feel the urge to pursue without being completely controlled by it. 00:40:05.657 --> 00:40:09.237 She could say, I want you to promise you'll never do it again while also recognizing. 00:40:09.237 --> 00:40:15.077 And I'm realizing that nothing you say is actually going to make me feel completely safe. That was huge. 00:40:15.677 --> 00:40:19.317 That is her nervous system beginning to learn that she can tolerate dysregulation 00:40:19.317 --> 00:40:22.237 without immediately trying to eliminate it through pursuit and control. 00:40:22.737 --> 00:40:26.637 And Mark's avoidant attachment system was saying, danger, she needs too much. 00:40:26.937 --> 00:40:31.337 And all I'm trying to do now is express myself and she's telling me I'm wrong. 00:40:31.437 --> 00:40:33.857 She's criticizing me. So withdraw, protect yourself. 00:40:34.397 --> 00:40:37.337 But instead of automatically disconnecting, Mark was able to stay present. 00:40:37.477 --> 00:40:41.317 He could feel the urge to shut down or to give a calculated answer without following 00:40:41.317 --> 00:40:45.377 it. He could say, I can't guarantee perfect behavior and stay in the conversation, 00:40:45.957 --> 00:40:50.277 maintain eye contact, remain emotionally available. And that again is huge. 00:40:50.777 --> 00:40:54.197 This is his nervous system beginning to learn that he can stay in connection, 00:40:54.197 --> 00:40:57.077 even when somebody is distressed, even when there's pressure, 00:40:57.437 --> 00:40:58.237 even when it's uncomfortable. 00:40:59.359 --> 00:41:02.919 What they were discovering together, and this is the path forward for them, 00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.539 is a new way to co-regulate that respects both people's nervous system patterns 00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:09.499 while slowly teaching those systems something different. 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:13.119 Sarah's learning, I can feel anxious and uncertain without needing Mark to immediately 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.539 fix it. And I can express it. And I can tolerate not knowing. 00:41:16.739 --> 00:41:20.399 My dysregulation won't destroy me. And pursuing harder doesn't actually help. 00:41:20.991 --> 00:41:24.231 But Mark is also learning, I can stay present with Sarah's distress without 00:41:24.231 --> 00:41:28.571 being consumed by it or responsible for fixing it and without shutting down. 00:41:28.871 --> 00:41:32.571 Her emotions aren't a threat to me. I can set a boundary or I can be honest 00:41:32.571 --> 00:41:34.791 without disconnecting. And here's what's so beautiful. 00:41:35.171 --> 00:41:39.691 As each of them learns to regulate their own nervous systems more effectively, 00:41:39.951 --> 00:41:43.011 they actually become better at co-regulating with each other. 00:41:43.491 --> 00:41:46.791 That's where I go back to the concepts around emotionally focused therapy. 00:41:46.791 --> 00:41:49.271 We're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human. 00:41:49.411 --> 00:41:52.731 This is what we're talking about. When Sarah is less desperately pursuing, 00:41:52.971 --> 00:41:54.471 Mark's nervous system doesn't get as triggered. 00:41:54.611 --> 00:41:58.051 When Mark stays more present and engaged, Sarah's nervous system doesn't go into panic mode. 00:41:58.251 --> 00:42:01.631 They're slowly interrupting the old dance and they're learning a new one. 00:42:01.751 --> 00:42:05.891 And there's neuroscience behind why this works because our nervous systems are plastic. 00:42:06.371 --> 00:42:08.591 Neuroplasticity, they can change and adapt throughout our lives, 00:42:08.591 --> 00:42:14.031 but they can also dig in deeper and deeper rutted neuropathways if we aren't 00:42:14.031 --> 00:42:18.511 willing to do something different, to self-confront, to admit that there are things we don't know. 00:42:18.511 --> 00:42:21.551 Our nervous systems adapt throughout our lives. 00:42:21.731 --> 00:42:24.211 Every time Mark stays present when his instinct is to withdraw, 00:42:24.391 --> 00:42:25.571 he's creating new neural pathways. 00:42:25.911 --> 00:42:29.751 Every time Sarah tolerates uncertainty without pursuing, she's creating new neural pathways. 00:42:30.051 --> 00:42:32.191 And it's like they're building new highways in their brains, 00:42:32.291 --> 00:42:36.391 new routes from dysregulation to regulation that don't depend on the old childhood strategies. 00:42:36.891 --> 00:42:40.571 And the research is actually really clear. Secure attachment can be learned. 00:42:40.791 --> 00:42:43.251 You're not stuck with the attachment style you developed in childhood. 00:42:43.691 --> 00:42:47.271 Through relationships, Whether that's therapy, a secure romantic partner, 00:42:47.411 --> 00:42:50.511 close friendships, or your own conscious effort and practice, 00:42:50.691 --> 00:42:54.271 you can rewire your nervous system for a secure connection. But it takes time. 00:42:54.531 --> 00:42:58.151 It takes thousands of repetitions. It takes being willing to feel uncomfortable 00:42:58.151 --> 00:42:59.811 while your nervous system learns something new. 00:43:00.151 --> 00:43:04.091 Mark and Sarah are in the early stages of this process, but that breakthrough 00:43:04.091 --> 00:43:06.031 session showed me they are capable of it. 00:43:06.696 --> 00:43:10.356 So why is understanding co-regulation so significant for Mark and Sarah and 00:43:10.356 --> 00:43:13.956 the healing process? Because first, it helps them depersonalize their pattern. 00:43:14.176 --> 00:43:16.876 When Sarah understands Mark's withdrawal isn't about her being too much, 00:43:17.036 --> 00:43:20.196 it's about his nervous system's learned strategy for handling threat, 00:43:20.196 --> 00:43:24.436 she can have more compassion for him even while holding him accountable for his behavior. 00:43:24.596 --> 00:43:27.736 And when Mark understands that Sarah's pursuit isn't about her being controlling, 00:43:27.736 --> 00:43:31.096 it's about her nervous system's learned strategy for trying to secure connection, 00:43:31.096 --> 00:43:35.136 he can have more compassion for her even while setting boundaries about what 00:43:35.136 --> 00:43:37.096 he realistically can or can't provide. 00:43:37.556 --> 00:43:41.556 And second, it gives them a framework for understanding what's actually happening in the conflict. 00:43:41.696 --> 00:43:44.176 They're not just bad at communication. They love each other. 00:43:44.276 --> 00:43:47.776 They care about each other, but they're two nervous systems with different regulation 00:43:47.776 --> 00:43:48.996 strategies trying to coordinate. 00:43:49.176 --> 00:43:52.216 That's a very different problem and it requires a different solution. 00:43:52.496 --> 00:43:56.836 And then third, it shows that the path forward, they can't just decide to change 00:43:56.836 --> 00:43:58.416 their patterns through willpower alone. 00:43:58.696 --> 00:44:03.376 They need to slowly, deliberately, intentionally create new experiences of co-regulation 00:44:03.376 --> 00:44:05.096 that teach their nervous system something different. 00:44:05.256 --> 00:44:08.296 And they need to be practicing when they're not together and when they're outside 00:44:08.296 --> 00:44:12.176 of sessions. They can't just show up and do it and then get it kind of right 00:44:12.176 --> 00:44:15.016 and then go about the week. 00:44:15.116 --> 00:44:19.336 They need to practice and read and do and stay present with discomfort. 00:44:19.716 --> 00:44:23.676 They have to practice reaching for connection in new ways. And ideally, it's both of them. 00:44:23.836 --> 00:44:27.236 And fourth, and this is really important, it helps them understand why the breakthrough 00:44:27.236 --> 00:44:30.616 felt so significant. In that session, They weren't just communicating better. 00:44:30.736 --> 00:44:35.916 They were actually experiencing a new emotional reaction, a new form of co-regulation. 00:44:36.076 --> 00:44:40.156 They were showing their nervous systems. Look, we can both be dysregulated and 00:44:40.156 --> 00:44:41.296 we can actually still stay in connection. 00:44:41.456 --> 00:44:43.616 We can hold incompatible truths 00:44:43.616 --> 00:44:46.316 and not collapse. We can be honest without destroying the relationship. 00:44:46.496 --> 00:44:50.076 And what that eventually leads to is we can express our needs and the other 00:44:50.076 --> 00:44:52.176 person can say, man, I don't know. 00:44:52.296 --> 00:44:56.916 I don't know why that's so hard for me to try to do, but I care about you. So I want to try. 00:44:57.076 --> 00:44:59.196 I want to lean in. And that's powerful. 00:44:59.436 --> 00:45:02.916 That's nervous system level learning. That's the foundation of secure attachment 00:45:02.916 --> 00:45:04.436 that's being built in real time. 00:45:05.661 --> 00:45:08.641 So that's the piece I wanted to add about co-regulation and understanding this 00:45:08.641 --> 00:45:11.881 concept. I think it really helps explain why the anxious and avoidant partners 00:45:11.881 --> 00:45:15.081 struggle so much together and why the path forward requires more than just better 00:45:15.081 --> 00:45:17.801 communication. And you can't just kick the can down the road. 00:45:17.901 --> 00:45:20.341 You can't just say I'm working on it and not be doing anything. 00:45:20.441 --> 00:45:22.021 I'm sorry, but you can't. 00:45:22.441 --> 00:45:26.841 It requires nervous system level healing and it really, you both need to be doing it. 00:45:27.321 --> 00:45:30.441 Mark and Sarah are learning to co-regulate as adults, which means staying present 00:45:30.441 --> 00:45:34.561 to each other's emotional experience while each taking responsibility for their 00:45:34.561 --> 00:45:38.001 own regulation, their own healing, their own self-confrontation, 00:45:38.121 --> 00:45:41.161 their own why am I not able to show up for my partner? 00:45:41.301 --> 00:45:44.121 And it means Sarah's learning that she can survive uncertainty without getting 00:45:44.121 --> 00:45:45.061 immediate reassurance. 00:45:45.221 --> 00:45:48.241 And Mark's learning that he can stay connected even when things are intense. 00:45:48.761 --> 00:45:53.081 This is the work and it's not fast and it's not easy, but it is possible. 00:45:53.081 --> 00:45:56.721 And that's what I see as a couples therapist. It can work. 00:45:56.841 --> 00:46:03.621 If it's not, it's often because one of the parties is not really doing the work. 00:46:03.701 --> 00:46:06.981 If I'm being honest and understanding, hopefully the neuroscience and the attachment 00:46:06.981 --> 00:46:10.061 theory behind it makes it a little less mysterious and a little more hopeful. 00:46:10.701 --> 00:46:14.081 Okay, everybody, that is it for today's episode, the bonus section and all. 00:46:14.241 --> 00:46:17.281 I hope it resonated with you. And if it did share it with somebody who might benefit. 00:46:17.401 --> 00:46:20.381 And if you're working through any kind of betrayal in your own relationship, 00:46:20.521 --> 00:46:23.441 financial or otherwise, or if you're recognizing these anxious and avoidant 00:46:23.441 --> 00:46:27.141 patterns in yourself, please know healing is possible, but it's not always linear. 00:46:27.361 --> 00:46:30.401 It's not always comfortable, but it's possible. And as always, 00:46:30.521 --> 00:46:36.361 you can find more resources at my website, tonyoverbay.com or go to my Instagram 00:46:36.361 --> 00:46:41.841 at virtual.couch or TikTok at virtual couch or my sub stack really at no sub 00:46:41.841 --> 00:46:44.261 stack.com slash the virtual couch. 00:46:45.136 --> 00:46:48.276 You are interested in working with me, you can reach out through the website. 00:46:48.416 --> 00:46:51.896 There are times where I will have some space and I will be honest, 00:46:52.076 --> 00:46:54.516 I'm becoming an old man. I'm becoming a little more picky. 00:46:54.676 --> 00:46:57.916 I want people that are up for the work and they're familiar with my content 00:46:57.916 --> 00:47:01.056 and hopefully it resonates and we can get somewhere pretty quickly. 00:47:01.716 --> 00:47:04.056 Thanks for spending the time with me. Thanks for sticking around for the bonus 00:47:04.056 --> 00:47:06.576 section. I know it was a long one, but I really wanted to give you the full 00:47:06.576 --> 00:47:10.316 picture of how co-regulation works and why it matters so much in healing attachment wounds. 00:47:10.956 --> 00:47:14.156 Until next time, I hope you take care of yourselves and each 00:47:14.156 --> 00:47:17.256 other and i am grateful to be putting 00:47:17.256 --> 00:47:23.596 out episode 462 of this there's 140 something waking up the narcissism podcast 00:47:23.596 --> 00:47:26.896 it's still phenomenal that i get to do this and i'm grateful for your support 00:47:26.896 --> 00:47:30.216 taking us out per usual the wonderful the talented aurora florence with her 00:47:30.216 --> 00:47:34.276 song it's wonderful because honestly it can be have a great week everybody we'll 00:47:34.276 --> 00:47:35.396 see you next time on the virtual.