Hey everybody.
Welcome back to the virtual couch.
This is part two of two in these episodes we're talking about
attachment styles, origin stories, the healthy and unhealthy versions
of a fictional couple, Jack and Jill.
this couple is based off of an accumulation of real
couples we're exploring.
What is at the core of , their marital struggles.
And it's stuff that I see in my office as a couple's therapist on a daily basis.
And if you have not listened to part one, , I really think you need to stop
this episode right now and go listen to . We're talking about a lot of things.
We're talking about the pursuer and the withdrawal dynamic.
About the origin stories of attachment styles, . Work from a guy named Dan
Siegel, who talks about co-regulating each other's emotional states.
Since I released the first episode, the amount of feedback I've got on
people that said, I had no idea that we really are two central nervous systems
that are just reacting to each other.
That when you can really slow things down or you're aware you can start to heal.
Not like you'll fix everything in a few days, . It can be a really
big part to help you get out of the negative cycle that you may be
experiencing in your relationship.
Previously in part one, following Jack and Jill, these were two
people whose childhood experiences shared opposite attachment styles.
Jill had learned to chase love to avoid abandonment.
She didn't wanna be alone, but she's gonna chase, chase, chase and pursue.
Jack Learned to retreat to avoid rejection.
Their nervous systems danced this painful loop of pursuit and
withdrawal, withdrawal and pursuit, but both wanted the same thing.
They wanted to feel safe.
They wanted to feel heard and understood, but they were finding
themselves alone in their marriage.
And it got to the point . Jack pulls in the driveway.
Jill's nervous system is already on high alert.
And Jack's , walking in, knowing that, okay, what am I gonna run into as well?
And so when they meet, they're already in these heightened states of anxiety
and fear and anger, and they do that long enough that their bodies are
just saying, oh, this is what we do.
When I get around this person, I already am anticipating how this is gonna go.
So the game's already hijacked
In part one, we watched Jill and Jack play out this whole dynamic and
it was rooted in their childhoods.
Our childhoods do shape our nervous systems.
. Jill learned to chase connection to feel safe.
She had a mom who was present sometimes.
So Jill would come home with accomplishments or awards or
things that she really needed to process with her parents, and her
mom would be available sometimes.
And then when her mom would realize she wasn't available, then she would
go and apologize and cry, and Jill would end up comforting her mom.
Jill's dad was somewhat absent, she learned that her
feelings, her emotions were.
Usually too much that she was the one that needed to figure out, what can I do
to make this other person feel better?
Even if it was at the cost of her own self, she would feel
like she's betraying herself.
So she chases connection to try to feel safe, but she's chasing someone
that is not trying to really connect.
The familiar for her becomes the person that is inconsistent
and that won't be there for me.
Jack learned to withdraw to feel safe.
Jack had more of a, we'll call it an abusive or violent upbringing.
He learned take it to withdraw, to sit this one out and
while he craved connection.
He saw that in Jill early on and Jill saw his stoicism as safety.
But then as they got together now these real childhood patterns started to emerge.
Now, the good news is that's normal.
We often go toward the familiar in our relationships, but the hope is that
we will then be able to heal, ideally heal together, but we're definitely
gonna learn to heal ourselves.
. They were fighting these ghosts, but they were ghosts of their past.
They were reacting not to really each other, but to their history of trauma,
of feeling not seen or understood.
And so that felt familiar.
So what if we could rewind, what if Jill's parents had known how to
hold space for her emotions without making her responsible for theirs?
And what if Jack's father had modeled vulnerability instead of criticism?
What if both of them had grown up in homes where emotions were
safe and repair was possible?
And love, here's the key, was consistent.
'cause then the kid can count on their parent to be this lighthouse, this beacon.
And it doesn't mean they're gonna be a pushover or they can just
walk all over their parents,
if their parents really knew what secure attachment was like, and
bless all of us parents and older people, and even people that are just
start trying to figure this out now.
We didn't know this stuff or we weren't paying attention.
Or sometimes you have to get to a pretty, I wanna say crummy place to have to
now say, I don't know what else to do.
And then I can start this journey of healing.
Now some people do take on this journey of somewhat victimhood and bless their
hearts because that can be scary to really be open and vulnerable and
put yourself out there if you really don't know exactly what you're doing.
But today I wanna explore the version of the story of what it would look
like from a healthy standpoint.
I think it's good to at least show us , what healthy would look like
or could have looked like with the, bless our parents' hearts.
They tried with the tools that they had.
So there's some acceptance there.
There's probably some forgiveness there.
And now with that acceptance, now I can move forward.
Let's talk about the healthy path, because these two paths don't just
show you what happens in relationships.
They show why we love and argue and connect the way we do, and maybe most
importantly, they can remind us that while we can't change the past until
somebody figures out a time machine,
we can absolutely learn to rewrite the patterns that the past has left behind.
I'm one of those that would always ask the question of why.
Why do we take history classes again?
And I would hear this because we don't wanna repeat the past insert to joke
about current situation in world now, but in reality there's a lot of truth
to that, that when I can see, oh, these patterns lead to this outcome,
if I think it's not gonna lead to that outcome, boy, I think I'm pretty special.
And so history is there to teach us.
So let's step back into Jill and Jack's story and see what happens
when emotional safety is the starting point, not the struggle.
Now, before we go there, I would love for you to go find me on
Substack Substack, I think it's dot com slash the virtual couch.
There'll be a link in the show notes, or go find me on Instagram at virtual
couch or on TikTok at Virtual Couch.
Or there's Tony over Bay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist on Facebook.
And sign up for my newsletter@tonyoverbay.com.
Here we go.
Back to this alternate path, if you are familiar or if you're fresh off of episode
one, it will sound a lot like the similar story, but we'll hear what it sounds like.
Healthy.
So, Jill was seven years old when she learned that feelings
didn't have to be scary.
She'd come home from school heartbroken because her best friend
had uninvited her from a birthday party to invite somebody else.
Instead, she'll try to hold it together.
But she's a kid, she's emotional, she's gonna cry.
She's going to be irrational by definition.
By the time she walked through the front door, she was crying, she was upset.
Her mom was in the kitchen making dinner.
She heard Jill come in, heard the crying, she turned off the stove.
She walked into the living room and she sat down on the couch and
she patted the spot next to her.
Hey, come here sweetheart.
So Jill sits down and her mom pulls her close, and first her mom does not say
things like, Hey, don't worry about it.
It's not a big deal.
Or you'll make other friends, or any of the things that adults like to say, coming
from a good place, in reality, to make themselves feel like I am a good parent.
I told them not to worry about it, but does the kid all of a
sudden go, holy cow, I did not think about not worrying about it.
No.
Then they think, oh my gosh, I, and my feelings are bad, or they're wrong.
By doing this, Jill's mom didn't make Jill's feelings feel smaller or wrong.
She just said, Hey, tell me what happened.
And Jill explained through tears, and her mom listened and her mom nodded.
And occasionally her mom rubbed her back in slow circles.
And when Jill finished, her mom said, man, that sounds really hard.
That looks like it really hurt your feelings, didn't it?
And Jill whispers.
Yeah.
And the mom says, you know, that makes a lot of sense.
I think that would hurt my feelings too.
Being left out feels terrible.
They sat there together for a few more minutes in the silence, and that's
one of the most difficult things to do as a parent, is when there's silence.
If you really break it down, I believe so often, at least for myself, I
get uncomfortable with silence.
It's a challenge.
In the therapy world.
We're supposed to be really good at sitting with silence so that
the client will then say something because with that silence, often
I think, man, my job is to rescue.
I gotta say something.
Sometimes it's a joke.
A lot of times it's just.
Tell me more about that.
But often letting the silence just be also teaches us that we
can sit with some uncomfortable feelings and emotions and it's okay.
Time passes.
The world keeps spinning.
So over time, Jill's breathing even out, and her crying slowed.
And her mom said, what do you think you want to do?
Do you wanna talk to your friend about how you feel?
Do you wanna take some space from the friendship, or do you just want to
kind of let it be and see what happens?
And Jill said, I don't know.
Her mom said, that is perfectly okay.
You don't have to know right now, but I just want you to know I'm here
whenever you want to talk about it more.
Would that be okay if I maybe checked in on you again tonight and Jill said,
I guess now I want to go on so many tangents there can be a version of
this that is the middle ground where the parent is holding it all together
and providing that space and safety.
But then at some point the parent realizes, okay, . I guess,
I mean, how am I gonna know?
And the parent can quickly make it about them again.
It's okay to just leave things there.
Now, imagine that's the pattern of Jill's childhood.
Her feelings are allowed to exist.
They weren't fixed or dismissed or made into emergencies.
They just were.
Her parents held space for him.
Later, when Jill didn't make a soccer team at 10, her dad sat her on the front
porch and said, man, how you doing?
Are you okay?
And again, she says, no.
And he says, I can see that you're pretty disappointed.
He didn't try to make it better.
He observed.
He witnessed.
He acknowledged, I see you.
When Jill was anxious before her first day of middle school at 11,
her mom said, how you feeling?
And Jill was scared.
And instead of her mom saying, okay, come on the party example, soccer,
don't you see things get better?
Oh no.
She said, man, yeah, new things can feel pretty scary.
Is there anything that I could do that would help you feel a little braver?
And at first, Jill said, no.
Then the mom threw out some options and they talked through 'em.
Her mom didn't take the fear away, but she helped Jill feel less alone in it.
And she packed her something pretty cute and adorable at lunch.
And when Jill saw that, 'cause she had forgotten about it, she had a little
chuckle and she felt seen when Jill's first boyfriend broke up with her at 16.
Both parents let her be sad , and they just held her and they just
sat with her and they watched movies and they said, how you feeling?
They didn't rush her past it.
. They didn't let her stay in bed for a whole week.
They were there.
They were grounded.
She was able to borrow their nervous system, their emotional regulation system
like she had done when she was a baby.
Part one, I quoted Dan Siegel quite a bit.
He's the one that really popularized the idea that our minds don't
stop at the edge of our skulls.
They extend into our relationships, and he calls it interpersonal neurobiology.
And it's the study of how connections between us actually
shape the wiring inside of us.
Siegel often says we are creatures of connection, so from the moment that
we're born, our nervous systems are designed to link up with someone else's.
So a newborn doesn't have a fully developed ability to
calm down or regulated emotions or feel safe on their own.
So they borrow their caregiver's nervous system, and that's what Jill was doing
at times when she really needed it and her parent could be grounded or calm.
When a baby cries, the parent will pick 'em up and rock
'em and hum to them softly.
That's co-regulation and action.
The baby's heartbeat eventually slows down to match the parents and the body learns.
When I am upset and someone calm shows up, I survive and I can even thrive.
So that pattern, this nervous system sinking together
doesn't stop when we grow up.
As adults, we do the same thing , when we laugh with a friend or we
hold somebody's hand, or we even exchange just a genuine smile.
Our nervous systems are making a connection.
We're sending these signals of safe danger, connect or protect.
So when you look at what healthy co-regulation looks like,
it feels more like teamwork.
Each person can lean on the other without losing themselves.
You come home from a long, stressful day and your partner can sense that you're
tense and they don't immediately try to fix it or just say, Hey, just relax.
They just sit next to you.
They maybe put a hand on your arm or your leg and let that oxytocin, the cuddle
hormone flow, the hormone of connection, and they may say, how was the day?
Rough.
They say, I'm not a dog.
Sorry, . I could not do that.
, you might exhale and your shoulders drop and you didn't need advice and
your calm becomes contagious Often.
All we need is that solid, stable presence by us.
The thing that if we would've had more of that from our parents,
bless their heart, a lot of 'em didn't know what they were doing.
They were doing their best.
But if you look at it that way, when a parent feels anxious and they're saying,
Hey, I need to get you to calm down because that will make me feel better.
I need you to not do that, , I need you to know.
I need you to do and I need you to understand are me things
that would make me feel better.
But as a parent, I would love to help us get outside of our ego and
say, how can I be here for you?
Or I can be here for you.
I can provide this safety, this container for you.
As I am here and present and calm and not trying to fix or tell you you're
doing something wrong, then your nervous system can start to co-regulate with mine.
Borrow mine for a little bit.
I'm good, and together we will be good.
But if I start saying, you know what you need to do or you need to calm down, what
I'm basically saying is, Hey, this is uncomfortable for me even though you're
the one that came to me with your big emotions, but I need you to calm down.
I could even say it in a nice voice.
Hey, don't worry about it.
It's not that big of a deal, because if you'll then say,
okay, I guess it's not, oh good.
I not only feel better about myself, but I can also say I'm a real good parent.
So often the person that's coming to us does not need advice.
They need our presence.
They need our calm, they need our curiosity.
They need space.
They need to know I see you and I'm here for you, and I don't have to fix whatever
you're bringing me, and I'm not gonna tell you what you're doing or thinking
is wrong, and I'm not gonna make it into a story about me even if I want to.
Your calm becomes contagious.
Another example of that is, let's say you're nervous about giving a presentation
and your friend says, Hey, you got this.
You've done hard things before.
Their grounded tone can help your body remember your own
capability that's co-regulation.
Your brain literally sinking with someone else's calm, confidence.
Healthy co-regulation doesn't mean one person is always the
calm one either, it's mutual.
It's reciprocal.
When you are in an emotionally immature relationship, co-regulation becomes
one-sided and instead of a steady exchange, one person ends up doing
the majority of the emotional labor.
Say you're upset after a difficult conversation with your teenager,
and you try to tell your partner about it, and the moment that , you
hesitate, or your voice shakes, they will roll their eyes and they'll
say, okay, you're overreacting again.
Now all of a sudden, your nervous system spikes
not really because of what they just said, but because the person that's supposed to
be your person, your emotional anchor just pulled away and instead of calming your
body goes into fight, flight, or freeze.
In these moments, your body doesn't care about who's right.
It just wants connection.
And if that connection continues to be inconsistent or unpredictable,
your nervous system learns.
Relationships equal instability, and they're unpredictable.
And that's the beginning of a trauma bond.
Dan Siegel explains that the mind is both embodied and relational.
It exists in a this flow state between brains.
Let's get woo woo.
. It's about an exchange of energy, of safety, of peace.
If you spend enough time around somebody who's calm and present and
emotionally safe, your own brain starts to wire for calm and safety too.
We will figure this out.
We've got this.
I'm here for you.
I can make space for you and your emotions.
If you spend a lot of time around somebody who's volatile, they're
dismissive, they're unpredictable, your brain wires for hyper vigilance.
Instead, you learn to scan and anticipate and appease and fix and play small.
Your nervous system says, okay, I get it.
Connection equals tension and criticism and fear.
Got it.
I'm gonna prepare for that.
So let's get back to Jill because I wanna talk about Jill's
parents and what they modeled.
They weren't perfect, but Jill was able to, on numerous occasions, watch her
parents navigate their own conflict.
They didn't pretend that disagreements didn't happen.
And there was one example in particular that stood out to
Jill when she was about 12 or 13.
She heard her parents having a really intense discussion about whether
or not to take out a home equity line of credit or a second mortgage
for renovations for their house.
And her father's voice was frustrated and she remembers feeling tension.
And she heard her dad say something like, I feel like you're not hearing
my concerns about the financial risk that we're about to take on.
And her mom's voice was pretty strained.
And she said, and I feel like you're dismissing what I'm saying
about the house needing repairs.
There was a pause and then her dad said, okay that's fair.
You're right.
I am very worried about money and I wasn't really listening to your point.
Can we start over?
And it's so fascinating because if you're listening to this and
if you found yourself thinking, okay, what, what's the angle?
Is he just trying to get his way?
You're not cynical, you're normal, you're human.
That's what I thought as a marriage therapist as well,
when I first heard this.
And then apparently they talked it through and Jill heard them
finding some sort of middle ground.
She was very young though, so she just remembers that.
It was like the mouth noises got very calm and it sounded like
their parents figured things out.
But then she still was a little bit rattled from hearing
them get intense or strained.
But from what she could tell both people bent a little bit.
Nobody stormed out, nobody gave anybody the silent treatment.
And what was really amazing is later her dad came to say goodnight to Jill
and noticed that Jill looked a little worried and he didn't just say, man,
I don't wanna bring anything up, just in case she didn't hear anything.
And I think so often it's easier for a parent to just say, Hey, goodnight champ.
And then the kids left sitting there not knowing what to do with their emotions.
So her dad said, Hey, did you hear us talking earlier and Jill 'cause of the
work that had been done providing safety and stability emotionally in the home?
She said, yeah, 'cause I can think of how many of us as kids
would've said, no, I'm fine.
Then the parent feels relief.
Okay, cool.
Good.
But so Jill said, yeah, I did hear that.
And he said, I know that might have felt uncomfortable, but I just want you to
know that I love your mom and we see things differently sometimes, and that
is perfectly okay, but we're working on things, and we're working through them.
Disagreeing does not mean that we don't love each other.
What Jill's nervous system learned is that emotions are manageable and
they don't destroy relationships.
People can be upset and they can still stay connected.
Conflict can be resolved, and it doesn't have to get mean or nasty or punitive.
It doesn't have to end in this fear of abandonment or in an
explosion of big feelings.
What she also learned was, I can feel my feelings without being overwhelmed by
them or overwhelming others, connection is stable even when things are difficult,
and we can have conversations that might be uncomfortable because they're
gonna actually turn into good moments where we both feel understood and you
start to feel that intimate connection.
People can still disagree and respect each other.
It's safe to be vulnerable because people will meet me there in my vulnerability
and they won't use it against me.
So by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system was
wired for a secure attachment.
She could recognize her own emotions, she could express 'em clearly and
trust that others could handle them if someone else couldn't.
It wasn't like Jill didn't understand why this person was acting the way
they would, but she understood that this is not somebody that I am wanting
to spend a lot of time with or I'm not gonna continue to open up to.
She started forming friendships where she could just be herself, not
perfect, not performing, just present.
And Dan Siegel's framework.
Jill's mind had developed integration.
Her parents had consistently provided what Siegel calls mind sight or the ability to
see and understand her inner experience.
They were genuinely curious.
She felt able to express herself and not be perfect.
She felt a connection with someone who.
Truly saw her.
So that's what she's gonna go seek out in her adult relationships.
She now knows her inner experience is okay.
It's fine.
She's okay, she's fine.
Her parents had served as her external nervous system regulators when she was
young, when she really needed them.
And gradually then she learned to internalize that
regulation and trust herself.
Her brain had wired itself.
For one central belief, connection is safe, and I can navigate emotions
without losing myself or others.
When your nervous system is wired to trust that connection feels safe, then if
it feels unsafe, that is not connection.
So that's not someone that I want to spend time with.
Now let's turn to Jack.
And this is again, in this alternate path, in this version that I don't
know if I've already made a joke about that comes with the unicorn
and the rainbow and the leprechaun walking around with the pot of gold.
But I guess I just did.
Jack was nine years old when he learned that struggling, didn't mean failing.
He'd been trying to understand math, long division for a week or more,
and his teacher had explained it a couple of times, but something about
the concept just wouldn't click.
And he really felt dumb, which made it even harder to think,
which made him feel worse.
And it was just this loop, this frustrating cycle.
One night at dinner, Jack was quiet and pushing food around his plate.
His dad said, hey, you all right buddy?
Jack hesitated.
Much like we talked about in this healthy version of Jill, he knew
that he could express himself.
In his experience so far, admitting that you didn't understand something
wasn't the end of the world.
He's still a kid.
So it's still risky because he's a kid.
And this is why this is so important to be genuinely curious and make
space for your kids' emotions because they're wired to worry because
, anxiety is there for a reason.
It's there to try to protect us.
So it felt risky, but something in his father's tone made him feel safe.
He thought, why not?
I'll try.
And he said, I'm really stuck on my math homework and I don't
really understand long division.
And I've tried, and my teacher seems to be getting frustrated with
me and I don't know what to do.
And everybody else is getting it and starting to do what Gottman calls
Kitchen sinking, just throwing everything in there because he just doesn't,
he doesn't like how he feels inside.
And so his father nodded.
I hear you.
Math can be really, really tricky.
I remember long division giving me a lot of trouble when I was your age as well.
Not the version of Unhealthy Jack that we heard last week
his dad did not pull the.
Napoleon Dynamite, uncle Rico, a moment where he could throw
a football over that mountain.
He didn't say, you know, Jack, when I was your age, I was actually teaching
the class and the teacher long division, and she was saying, thank you so much.
I did not understand that concept before you seven, eight, 9-year-old,
Jack, help me understand.
No, Jack looked up and said, really?
And his dad said, yeah, it took me forever to figure it out.
And then his father paused and took his last bite and he said,
Hey, do you want any help?
I'd love to.
I'd love to help out if I can.
They sat down together at the table.
Jack showed his dad the problems.
His dad didn't take over.
He didn't do it for him.
He didn't get frustrated.
And I will say over and over, this was not me as a parent, I know that if my kids had
a struggle with something that I could do.
Math was not my forte.
I felt kind of silly.
I did not help them much with math because I think I was so immature, emotionally
immature and embarrassed that, yeah, I don't really understand it either, but
to like third grade or fourth grade math.
But if they had to write something, oh, I love the writing.
So then I don't know if my kids were playing me or not, now that I'm
thinking about this in real time.
But if they were saying, oh my gosh, dad, I just don't know how to write this thing.
You like writing?
And I, I would say yes, I do.
And I would probably pull an Uncle Rico moment.
You know, I write a newspaper column and a blog and I'm working on a book.
They probably thought, yeah, we know.
But then, I would help 'em write.
And then, I got a lot of good grades and middle school and in
high school on behalf of my kids.
But no, Jack's dad says, Hey, walk me through what you're thinking
when you look at this problem.
Jack felt safe.
He explained his confusion.
His dad listened and said, oh, okay.
I think I can understand what's happening here.
I can see where you're getting tangled up.
Lemme show you how I think about it.
That's what I like.
And it wasn't a, well, why don't you do this?
Or You should be doing this.
I hear you make space.
And then, Hey, can I offer up something?
Let me kinda show you what I do or the way that it works for me.
But you know, I want you to find your process.
So they worked through one problem together.
Slowly, dad breaks into smaller steps.
And when Jack got confused again, his dad didn't sigh or criticize
and say, Hey, I already said it.
I don't know what, what else I'm supposed to do now.
He said, okay, let's take a look at it from a different angle.
And by the end, Jack solved the problem on his own and his dad
smiled and said, you got it.
And your brain just needed a minute to catch up with the concept.
And that's how learning works.
This was a pattern of this healthy version of Jack's childhood.
When things were hard and help was available, it was there without judgment.
When he struggled, it didn't mean that he was broken.
It meant that he was learning, which is the way we learn.
You don't know things that you don't know, and then you're gonna learn him.
So when somebody else is saying, man, that was easy for me.
Okay, let me go get a some little small trophies, some attaboy trophies
and I can keep 'em around the house.
And whenever you, you can tell me about how great things were for you.
I will give you a trophy.
When Jack was cut from the basketball team at 1314, he came home and he
was devastated and his father found him in his room that evening and he
didn't say, you know, Michael Jordan was cut from his team and he went on
to be the greatest player of all time.
there you go.
Good talk.
Go get him.
No, he found Jack in his room and Jack said, coach said, I'm not good enough.
Jack's voice was tight and he held back tears and his dad
sat on the edge of the bed.
He's like, man, that is a hard thing to hear.
I am so sorry that happened.
What was that like?
Jack shrugged.
It doesn't matter.
And his dad said, Hey, it's okay to be disappointed.
It really is.
And getting cut sucks.
I know you've worked really hard.
And Jack finally looked up and there were tears in his eyes and his dad didn't tell
him, Hey, but rub a little dirt in it.
, You're just lucky to even get to play.
My dad, made me play basketball with a rock I wouldn't even bounce.
And we had no shoes, and we played in the snow.
He didn't hear that.
His dad said, I'm just proud of you for trying.
And his dad sat there present with Jack's pain.
After a few minutes, his dad asked, Hey, anything else you think about doing?
Are you already thinking about trying out next year?
Do you wanna look at a different sport?
Do you wanna take a break on sports for a while?
And Jack said, I don't know.
And his dad said, that is absolutely fair, and you don't have to
decide right now, but I just want you to know there's no thought.
That's gonna be crazy here if you want to go find a local badminton
club, if you want to discover what curling is, I'll get you a broom.
Whatever you need, just let me know.
Jack also learned about healthy conflict by watching his parents.
They disagreed sometimes about money parenting decisions where
to spend holidays, but their disagreements never felt dangerous.
As a matter of fact, the real ish client that some of Jack is based off of said
that he and a couple of his siblings
they often viewed the conversation that their parents would have about
Where are we gonna go on vacation?
He said, if it was the modern day, they would've probably placed some bets.
'cause he said it was fascinating because they were hilarious, they were sarcastic,
they were witty, they were funny.
One year Jack's dad did a PowerPoint presentation to try to make his case.
That's a better way to handle potential conflict.
One evening when Jack was around 14, he did hear his parents having a really
heated discussion in the kitchen.
So it felt off, and he remembers that his mom's voice felt pretty tight.
She said, I feel like I'm managing all the kids' schedules all by myself.
I need more help.
His father's voice was a little defensive.
He's like, Hey, I'm working long hours right now.
I'm not sure what else I can give.
So there was tension and Jack remembers feeling his chest
tighten a knot in his stomach.
And he just didn't know what was gonna come next.
He didn't know if there was gonna be an explosion of anger or just.
Silent treatment or whatever it would be.
But instead he heard his father take, a breath, a pause,
and he said, you know what?
I hear you and I can hear that you're overwhelmed and
I know I'm getting defensive.
Can we have a timeout?
Jack remembers this because he remembers thinking timeout is in sports.
I love that that seared into his little brain.
But his dad said, I need a timeout.
I'm getting defensive and I need to calm down because I want to listen to you.
And he remembers his mom saying, Hey, I need to take a break as well.
And he remembers.
His parents went out on a walk and then they came back in and
they seemed happy and joyous.
And he said, they picked up the conversation, they talked for another
20 or 30 minutes, and Jack couldn't hear it all, but he said he heard the
tone, the vocal tones, the mouth noises, and their voices gradually softened.
And at one point he heard his mom say, I really appreciate you making
space and having the courage.
To say I needed a break that was really big.
And then his dad saying, I appreciate you the next day.
His dad then apologized to the family for being less present lately, and he
acknowledged that he had been spending a lot of time at work because he and
his mom had had some misunderstanding about some plans for the future, and he
had felt like he needed to work more.
So he told the family about a new schedule where he'd be home
earlier, a couple times a week.
He was gonna help more with dinner and homework, and he followed through.
It wasn't just something to say to make himself feel better in the moment.
He took action and changed what Jack's nervous system learned.
Asking for help is normal.
It's not weak.
Vulnerability doesn't lead to an attack or rejection.
Conflict can be uncomfortable, but not dangerous.
It's okay to be aware that I'm starting to get a little bit emotionally flooded
or overwhelmed and I need to take a break.
People can disagree strongly and they can still love each other and emotions.
Yours and others aren't threats to be avoided.
We'll find a way whether we have to take a break, whether I need
to do a reset, whatever that looks like, we'll find a way through it.
Taking space is okay.
If you come back to repair, that's the key.
Connection feels safe.
It doesn't have to feel suffocating.
If I am noticing that I'm feeling suffocated, I actually can take a
break or I can express that to my partner and not have this fear that
they're gonna say, well, there you go.
What am I supposed to do?
Not go into this victim mentality.
And his little nervous system learned that other people's needs don't trap
you their information about how to care for each other or yourself.
So by the time Jack leaves for college, his nervous system was
wired for a secure attachment.
He could recognize his own limits.
He could communicate them.
He could be present with other people's emotions without feeling overwhelmed.
He could be independent without being isolated and he knew
how to take care of a unicorn.
In interpersonal neurobiology terms, jacket developed what Dan Siegel
called integration, the linking of these differentiated parts so he could
be both connected and autonomous.
His parents had modeled co-regulation, a healthy version of co-regulation.
When he would become dysregulated, they stayed steady and gradually his
brain learned that I can go to someone, I can borrow their nervous system in
a sense, and then I can now lean on that to learn about myself, and I can
learn to integrate that steadiness into my own central nervous system.
His brain had wired itself for one central belief.
Connection is safe and I can be myself while being close to others.
Now, how did Jack and Jill meet?
Jack and Jill met through mutual friends at a casual dinner party where they
were both in their mid to late twenties.
And it wasn't a dramatic thing.
There wasn't the lightning bolt or there, there weren't fireworks.
And I hear so often people that will be in a relationship and it feels nice, it
feels good, but they say there's no spark.
And what that means is, there's not enough chaos here.
So my central nervous system doesn't know what to do with this.
You don't have to have the lightning bolt, you don't have to have the firework.
But what you do want is to feel safe and understood and
heard and of worth and value.
There isn't this instant certainty if there is actually, that's the
challenge, that's the problem.
Why did I all of a sudden just feel this immediate connection?
Oh my gosh, that's because it's like my parent, it's my dad.
My nervous system said this feels good drama, chaos.
Sign me up.
No, that's what we want to work on ourselves, and we want to be able
to enter relationships where we feel safe and understood, not just
a connection, a bond, a trauma bond.
That's not the goal.
So when they met, they had some pleasant conversations with
people who seemed interesting.
It's not gonna find itself into a Taylor Swift song, but
we're talking about stability.
Jill was talking with a group when Jack joined and she asked him about
his work, and he actually asked her about hers, not so that he could
then tell more stories about himself.
The conversation flowed.
There was a natural rhythm to it.
Jill noticed that Jack seemed comfortable in his own skin.
He wasn't dominating the conversation.
He wasn't baiting into the background.
He was asking thoughtful questions, but then he would also share
his own stories, and they didn't seem kind of crazy or grandiose.
There was a balance to him that felt easy.
Jack noticed that Jill laughed genuinely.
She made eye contact without it feeling intense, and she seemed very curious
about people without being intrusive.
And when somebody in the group shared a story about a recent
work failure, Jill said, oh man, that sounds frustrating, period.
She didn't try to fix it or minimize it, and Jack appreciated that too.
She could sit with discomfort without needing to manage it away, but it's okay.
You're the very best, I think of, , this joke often where people
that are so, so, so kind that if somebody says, man, you know what?
I just can't stop murdering people.
And then it's like the kind person, my joke in my head is always, they're
gonna say, I bet you're the best murderer, though you're probably
the nicest murderer there is.
So don't, don't get down on yourself.
Sounds nice.
But , it's really this form , of trying to get rid of the
discomfort and manage it away.
At one point a friend tried to rope jack into helping with the a last minute move.
The next day, his only day off after a busy week, this was
where the masterclass set in.
According to Jill.
She watched Jack say kindly, but clearly, man, I can't tomorrow.
I've got some plans that I've already made with people and I'm a man of my word.
I follow through on things and then the guy's like, man, and he made the
right mouth noises or tried to, and facial expressions and posture shifts.
I was like, oh man, I just, I really thought you'd be able to help.
I don't know what I'm gonna do.
And everybody just sat there silent.
It sounds to those who are so pathologically kind like
somebody needs to help him.
And if no one is in a position to help because they know themselves, then that
does sound really difficult, period.
I don't have to fix it or manage it away.
Jill noticed the boundary.
It was set without guilt, without overexplaining.
What a key concept that is.
The more you explain, the more you are handing this person, this
attack surface that they can say, oh, well I'll poke holes in that.
Yeah.
That what if that those plans fall through?
, Is that friend maybe they don't really wanna go.
And you might even be doing 'em a favor without overexplaining and
especially without being harsh.
That's refreshing thought, Jill.
He can say no without drama.
So they exchanged numbers before leaving.
The texting that followed was comfortable.
Jill would text, Jack would respond within a reasonable timeframe.
Neither of them overthought.
It's been two hours, probably doesn't like me anymore.
And sometimes he initiated and sometimes she did.
There wasn't gameplay.
No three-day wait rules, no anxiety about response times.
After a few weeks of texting, Jack suggested they go to
coffee and Jill said yes.
And the coffee date went well.
Two hours of conversation that felt natural, not forced.
They discovered shared interest in hiking and obscured documentaries,
and they laughed about bad dating stories and they didn't view that as
an, an attack surface to criticize.
If Jill talked about her dates, Jack didn't feel jealous and say,
well, you don't talk to him anymore.
Do.
They admitted to each other.
That dating in their late twenties felt pretty exhausting.
When Jack walked Jill to her car, he said, Hey, I would love to see
you again if you're interested.
And she said, I would like that too.
What?
Neither of them consciously realized that they were both attracted to
emotional health because their nervous systems recognized it as safe.
The research on secure attachment, it continually shows that securely attached
people tend to partner with other securely attached individuals at rates
far higher than chance would predict.
There's some research by Cindy Hazen and Philip Schafer, and they found
that secure individuals are more likely to recognize and be attracted
to security than over chaos or drama.
Why?
'cause their nervous systems have been wired to recognize emotional
availability, consistency, and a big one that I hear in my office.
People want reciprocity.
And so in a healthy, secure relationship that is there, it is available.
If you don't have that in your relationship now, go get help.
Not trying to do an ad, but if you, if you like my content, reach
out, contact@tonyoverbay.com.
Tell me your story from time to time.
I have room to work with couples, but these things like emotional availability,
consistency, reciprocity, those become indicators of safe relationships.
They're not seeking intensity or drama because their nervous systems
don't confuse anxiety with attraction.
So when Jill had a stressful week a month or two into dating Jack, she told
him straightforward, I'm wiped out.
Are you cool if we did something really low key this weekend,
instead of going to that concert?
And Jack said, oh yeah, of course.
What sounds good to you?
He didn't say, oh man, I already paid for it.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
I know you said you're uncomfortable, but that isn't good for me.
So can you bring all that discomfort with you and come with me so I can be happy?
No.
He said, do you wanna just order food?
Watch a movie at my place.
He said, that sounds perfect.
No guilt from Jack, no anxiety from Jill that she would disappoint
him, just flexibility and care.
And they spent the evening running a, a brush through Jack's unicorn's hair.
Now, when Jack needed to focus on a major project deadline, six weeks
into the relationship, he texted Jill, Hey, I'm gonna be pretty
heads down with work this week.
Can we plan something for next Friday?
I so miss you, but I really need to get through this crunch time.
Jill is able to actually be disappointed.
Oh, man, I'm bummed, but that's a human emotion, but no problem.
Hey, good luck with the project.
Let me know if you need me to drop anything off, or can I
give you some encouraging texts?
So Gil did not interpret his need for space as rejection.
Her nervous system didn't activate into panic about abandonment.
She didn't have to continually question his message, and she was
able to take him for his word.
She recognized it for what it was.
It's a temporary boundary based on a certain set of external circumstances,
not a statement about the relationship.
There's some research from a variety of attachment theorists that says
securely attached individuals show several key characteristics in dating.
They can express needs directly without anxiety or defensiveness, and
they respond to their partner's needs without feeling threatened or burdened.
They maintain their sense of self while being emotionally available,
and they interpret behavior through a lens of trust rather than than threat.
And I just, I want people to be aware that this is a thing, and if
you aren't this thing currently, it doesn't mean that you can't be.
It doesn't mean that you can't become.
I just want you to recognize why these things are happening in your
own central nervous system and in this dance of emotions with your
partner, because learning is the first step on your path to growth.
Jack and Jill were doing these things naturally without conscious effort
because their childhoods had wired for it.
There's a guy named Stan Takin, and he has a thing called a packed framework,
and he suggests that secure individuals unconsciously screen for other secure
individuals because their nervous systems can distinguish between familiar
and safe versus familiar unsafe.
So Jack's calm presence didn't trigger Jill's anxiety.
It felt genuinely peaceful.
Jill's warmth didn't trigger Jack's fear of being suffocated.
It felt genuinely caring.
This is very distinct from the typical anxious avoidant pairing
or the anxious avoidant loop where calm distance triggers pursuit and
emotional intensity triggers withdrawal.
Jack and Jill weren't triggering each other's defense systems.
They were meeting each other in a regulated middle ground.
So after a few months of dating, they had their first real disagreement.
Jill wanted to spend Thanksgiving with her family, and Jack had
assumed they would spend it with his, but they had not discussed it.
So they both felt surprised by the other's expectation, but they also realized,
I guess we never talked about this.
So Jill brings it up.
I think we assume different things about Thanksgiving.
Are you cool if we talk about what we each want?
And Jack admitted he felt a flash of defensiveness, but that was his cue
to be able to ground himself, pause and then jump into this conversation.
He thought, why does this have to be this complicated?
But then he recognized the feeling and he took a breath.
That's a me thing.
So he said, that is a great idea.
Honestly, I was hoping you would come with me 'cause I just wanna
show you off to everybody, but I realize we never talked about it.
And she said.
Same.
I was planning to go to my parents' place and I thought that it would be
fun to take you there, but I would actually love to meet your family.
Maybe, we could do one at Thanksgiving and one at Christmas, and they
talked through the options.
Jack admitted feeling a little disappointed again.
That's okay.
Jill acknowledged the same.
She was too, but neither made it mean something catastrophic
about the relationship, and so they landed on a compromise.
Thanksgiving with Jack's family.
Christmas with Jill's.
This is our first real negotiation, Jack said with a small smile.
I think we did okay.
What allowed this?
Their nervous systems weren't interpreting conflict as danger.
Disagreement didn't mean abandonment or attack, it just meant that they
needed to understand each other and then they could find solutions together.
Sue Johnson, the founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy, EFT, has research
that shows that secure couples can move through conflict while maintaining
connection because that attachment bond provides safety even during disagreement.
Jack and Jill got engaged after a couple of years of dating, and the proposal was
thoughtful, but it wasn't performative.
They had talked about marriage openly for months, so it kind of wasn't a surprise.
They both wanted it.
They both felt ready.
When Jack proposed during a weekend hiking trip, Jill said yes.
Tears in her eyes, not because it was a surprise, but because it just felt right.
They weren't operating from this unconscious hope of healing
childhood wounds through, through their reunion, their partnership.
They were choosing each other from a place of wholeness, not from a place of need.
It is not.
We are two halves and we become one.
We are two complete individuals, and we can become even better as we
have shared experiences with people that we feel a connection with.
Fast forward, Jack and Jill, they've been married a few years.
Their life is not perfect.
They have stress.
They have hard days.
They have moments of misunderstanding.
Everyone does, but the relationship feels like a resource, not a liability.
That's the key.
I have another human I can interact with to process emotion.
When your nervous system can become wired for safety and connection and not
spending your time defending yourself or trying to attack or withdraw,
then you want to go to this person.
'cause they're a resource, not a liability.
This is somebody, this is your person.
We're gonna bounce ideas off of each other and I'm not gonna feel criticized or I'm
not gonna be made to feel like a buffoon for having my own thoughts and opinions.
So then it's a Saturday afternoon and they navigate something that could have
easily become a big conflict because it's one of, one of my top five hard things.
It is.
You got intimacy, parenting, finances, religion, politics.
Joe comes home from a mechanic with the news, if you remember part one at all.
We're gonna do a similar scenario, but the good version, Jill comes
home from a mechanic with news.
Their car needs $2,000, unexpected repairs, and she feels stressed rising.
They have the money, but it wasn't planned, and it means they're
gonna have to delay some other things that they had hoped to do.
She finds Jack in the kitchen and she wants to talk to him,
but she also feels uncomfortable.
That's perfectly normal.
So she takes a breath.
Hey, the mechanic called and the car needs $2,000 in work, and
it's so much more than I thought.
Jack looks up from his laptop and he notices Jill's face.
She looks stressed, not panicked, and he feels his own stress
response, and it's there.
He notices it, it could activate.
His first thought was, okay, we just paid for a brand new fence, and now this, but
he catches that before it takes over.
Okay, so Jack says, okay, closes his laptop.
Man, that is frustrating.
I so appreciate what you're saying.
Like that is, yeah.
We don't really have this budgeted, do we?
What'd they find?
Jill explains the issue as she talks.
Jack can feel her tension and he doesn't try to fix it immediately or dismiss it.
He listens.
He maintains eye contact.
He stays present.
He actually rises to the challenge.
This is one of those things that we don't know, that we
don't know until you get there.
When this is the air you breathe, you want to provide that container, that
safe space for your partner's emotions, and it feels somewhat invigorating.
I want to be this person that can make space for them to help them feel safe.
So when she finishes talk and he says That is a lot that you had to carry with you to
bring home, I can see why you're stressed.
Thank you so much.
Jill Exhales, something in her body just releases.
She's been worried that Jack would be frustrated with her for
not catching the problem earlier or that he minimized her stress.
Instead, he's just there.
He says, we'll figure it out.
You know, we will.
It might mean pushing back the deck furniture.
It might mean postponing a vacation a little bit, but we'll figure it out.
Let's talk about it later.
And he doesn't mean kick the can down the road.
He just said, why don't we, why don't we just go grab a bite to eat together?
Let's connect.
Let's get right back into this, our bodies, our relationships,
and then we will get back to these emotional things later.
She said that would be amazing, and she pauses and says, Hey, I'm so
sorry I didn't catch this earlier.
I feel like I should have noticed something was off with the car.
And Jack shakes his head, Hey, you're not a mechanic.
These things happen.
Let's just deal with what's in front of us.
Things are gonna happen.
We're gonna figure 'em out.
That's co-regulation in action.
He wasn't even doing it because he needed something or wanted something
from her, and she didn't even anticipate.
That later wasn't like, okay, now what do I have to do?
Jill came home stressed.
Jack's calm.
He was grounded.
He had a grounded response, helped her nervous system settle.
He didn't take on her stress, he didn't dismiss it, he acknowledged it and
offered a partnership in solving it.
After lunch, they sit down with the laptop and budget and a spreadsheet and numbers
and math and finances and all those things that I'm not very comfortable with.
And Jack pulls up the accounts.
Jill makes T for both of 'em.
Okay, Jack says, scanning the numbers.
Let's dip into the emergency fund.
All in favor say aye.
That's, and Jill says, I hate that we have to do that.
And he said I mean technically this is an emergency and we don't want
to put this on a credit card, so I think this is what we need to do.
Jill says, ah, the emergency fund is getting low, makes me nervous.
And Jack said, oh man, that makes sense.
He acknowledges, he doesn't tell her she's worrying too much, she's being irrational.
Or, , how do you think that makes me feel?
Her feeling is information.
It's not a problem to solve.
He said, what would help you feel more comfortable?
And she said, maybe if we could build it back up over the next couple of months
and we could even postpone some of the other things for even a few more months.
Jack considers this, his initial reaction is resistance.
'cause he really is looking forward to this one particular trip.
He had been allocating it there already, but he recognizes Jill's need for
financial security and safety is more important than him going to the Poconos.
I really don't even know where those things are, but security's valid
and her suggestion is reasonable.
And he says, let's do it, and I'm happy to wait on some of these other things.
Are you sure?
Jill says, I don't want you to feel like you can't have the things you want.
He's like, oh, yeah, no, I, I really am.
And I appreciate, yes, that really matters.
They finalize a plan, pay for the car, repair for the emergency
fund, rebuild it, assess their savings goal, buy a second unicorn.
The whole conversation doesn't take that long.
Nobody's voice was raised.
Nobody shuts down.
Nobody walks away.
So what happened there, if we go back to from a neuroscience
perspective, is what Dan Siegel describes as healthy co-regulation.
When Jill's nervous system was activated by stress,
. Jack's regulated nervous system provided a stabilizing reference point.
His calm presence didn't mean dismissing her concern.
It meant creating enough safety that she could think clearly about solutions
instead of spiraling into panic.
And crucially, this regulation flows both ways.
Two weeks later, Jack comes home from work and he's frustrated and his manager
gave him feedback on a project that wasn't very cool and Jack had worked hard on it.
And while the feedback was somewhat valid, it stung.
And there's several things that attachment research identifies that
is crucial for secure relationships.
First, they could repair after conflict.
Research from John Gottman shows that successful couples are not conflict
free, they're skilled at repair.
Jack could name that they were too activated at one point and suggest a
break without it being abandonment.
And Jill could trust that.
Let's take a break meant we're pausing and we will get back to it.
Not I'm leaving this conversation forever.
Second, they could take responsibility for their own parts.
Neither stayed defensive, both could apologize for their
contributions to the escalation.
There's research from Harriet Lerner that shows that a genuine apology and then
taking ownership and accountability are foundational to healthy relationships.
And then third, they could help hold multiple truths simultaneously.
This is so important.
Jack's concern about finances was valid.
Jill's desire in another situation to help out her mom is valid.
They didn't have to make one person wrong and make the other person right.
This is what, Siegel talks about when he talks about integration in relationships,
the ability to honor differentiation.
We're separate people, but we do have different perspectives while
maintaining connection linkage, we're committed to finding solutions
together over years of marriage.
What Jack and Jill have built is a secure functioning relationship.
They become each other's primary go-to person for co-regulation.
They're not looking for it outside of the relat.
When one person's stressed, the other's nervous system helps
bring 'em back to baseline.
And when one person is struggling, the other provides support without
fixing or dismissing, it leads to a less dramatic relationship.
There's no intense pursuing or intense withdrawing.
There's no walking on eggshells or explosive fights.
It's not boring.
They laugh together.
They enjoy each other's company.
They have a solid sex life.
They share adventures.
It's not chaotic.
It's steady and steady to their nervous systems.
Is safe research shows that secure relationships have several key
consistent characteristics that they both embodied emotional availability.
Both partners can be present with each other's feelings without
becoming overwhelmed or dismissive.
They have effective communication.
They can express needs and concerns and feelings directly, and there's minimal
guessing or mind reading required.
When Jill needs more quality time together, she says, so when
Jack feels overwhelmed by social commitments, he says, so conflict
resolution skills come next.
That means they can disagree sometimes even with some big emotions
and move through it to repair.
Conflict doesn't threaten the foundation of the relationship
according to John Gottman's research on successful marriages.
It's not the absence of conflict, but it's the presence of effective repair
that predicts relationship satisfaction.
They had mutual support.
They celebrate each other's successes, and they support each other's struggles.
One person's success does not mean that the other person is doing anything wrong.
When Jill gets a promotion, Jack is genuinely happy for her.
He's not threatened.
When Jack's father becomes ill, Jill makes space for his grief
without making it about her.
And that allows them also to maintain individuality because
they can have separate friendships, separate interests, even separate
time when they wanna take it.
Jill has a standing monthly dinner with her college friends.
Jack plays in a rec basketball league, and neither feels threatened
by the other's independence.
They actually know that it's good for the other person.
And then they have physical and emotional intimacy.
They maintain physical affection and sexual connection, but more importantly,
they maintain emotional intimacy.
It's this ability to be vulnerable and to truly be seen and to
share their inner worlds.
And they have trust and reliability.
They do what they say they'll do.
They acknowledge that these are things I can't do.
They show up consistently, and that allows both of their central nervous systems
to relax into the relationship instead of, of staying perpetually vigilant.
From a, from an interpersonal neurobiological perspective,
that's a mouthful.
They're literally shaping each other's brains through their
consistent, attuned interactions.
Siegel's research shows that repeated experiences of secure connection
create neural pathways that reinforce that capacity for connection.
The more you do it, the more you do it each time.
Jack responds to Jill with presence instead of withdraw.
Her brain gets evidence that connections safe.
Each time.
Jill gives Jack space without pursuing anxiously.
His brain gets evidence that autonomy doesn't mean abandonment.
So over time, even the ways they might have been slightly less secure when they
met now have shifted towards security.
So Jill has become even more confident in her ability to handle distress
independently because of Jack's consistent availability that's
taught her nervous system that.
Support if I need it, is reliably there.
And Jack's become even more comfortable with emotional closeness because Jill's
respect for his boundaries has taught him and his nervous system that intimacy
does not mean he's gonna lose himself.
This is neuroplasticity.
This is the brain changing
the fixed brain mindset , , is not a thing your brain can continue to learn.
You can teach an old dog new tricks.
Their secure relationship is literally changing the neural
architecture in their brains.
So episode one, episode two, the critical question.
What made the difference?
Why did one version of Jack and Jill end up in a painful pursuit withdrawal
cycle, and the other version built a secure, satisfying relationship?
The answer lies in childhoods in these thousands of small interactions that wired
their nervous systems for either security or inconsistency in healthy relationships.
Jack and Jill's parents consistently provided what attachment theorists call
a safe haven, a secure base, and when they were distressed, their parents
were readily available to help them.
A safe haven.
When they wanted to explore or take risks, their parents supported their
autonomy while remaining available if needed, a secure base, a home base
they could operate from, and they can go out and explore the world.
The consistency is crucial.
Mary Ainsworth, who is the one that developed the strange
Situation Assessment of Attachment.
They did an episode on this quite a while ago that led to the concepts
around secure and avoidant and anxious.
She said, it's not perfection that creates secure attachment, it's reliability.
Parents don't have to be perfectly attuned all the time.
They don't have to know everything.
They don't have to always get it right.
They need to be good enough most of the time and be willing to work on
things, acknowledge things, be able to repair when they miss the mark.
Healthy.
Jill's mom wasn't always immediately available, but
she was predictably available.
Healthy Jack's father sometimes got frustrated, but he came
back to repair with consistency.
This teaches the nervous system.
People are not perfect, but they're trustworthy.
Connection might have bumps, but it doesn't break.
If you look back at the unhealthy versions, the unhealthy Jill's mom
was inconsistent a lot of times, absent, sometimes engulfing,
rarely attuned unhealthy.
Jack's dad was consistently critical and his mom was consistently unavailable.
Their nervous systems learn.
I cannot predict what I'll get from connection.
I gotta protect myself.
John Bowlby, who found Attachment Theory, describes these internal working models,
mental representations that we build about ourselves and others, and relationships
based on these early experiences.
These models operate largely outside of our conscious awareness.
That's the thing is that this is why we do the things we do, because we do them.
When somebody in a relationship says, why'd you do that?
My number one go-to answer is, well, I'll answer because they did.
But . Maybe we can take a look at.
Well, why?
Because it's just the way they did it.
It's the reaction that they're having to that moment in life.
But let's talk about it.
' cause these things that happen outside of our conscious awareness, they
profoundly influence how we interpret and respond to the relationship
experiences throughout our life.
We have to recognize them and acknowledge them before we can then
know even what to do moving forward.
What change looks like.
Healthy Jill's internal working model, I am worthy of love.
Others are , generally reliable and responsive.
Relationships are a, a source of support.
It does not mean that then she's gonna go find a unhealthy relationship
because she's whimsical and naive.
Her nervous system is going to make sure that if someone is manipulative,
controlling, or inconsistent, that, that something feels off in healthy
Jack's internal working model.
I'm capable and valued.
Others can be trusted with my vulnerability.
Relationships are safe and mutually beneficial.
Unhealthy, Jill's internal working model.
I am too much or I'm not enough, depending on the context on the moment.
Other people, unpredictable, they might leave.
Relationships require constant hypervigilance and performing an
effort and giving up of myself in order to maintain unhealthy
jack's internal working model.
I am inadequate unless I'm self-sufficient.
I can't count on anybody.
Others are overwhelming or they're very critical.
So relationships are actually threatening to my autonomy and my wellbeing, but
apparently I'm supposed to be in one.
These work in models become self-fulfilling prophecies unhealthy.
Jill expecting abandonment pursues intensely, which triggers unhealthy
Jack's fear of engulfment, which causes him to withdraw, which
confirms Jill's fear of abandonment.
Healthy.
Jill expecting responsiveness asks for what she needs directly,
which healthy Jack can meet, which confirms Jill's expectation that
relationships are cooperative.
, There's a term that's been floating around quite a while, and I think
I would predict this is one that is gonna become the hot new term.
Let's talk about polyvagal theory.
This is one of those things that I would just nod.
Oh yeah, polyvagal.
I think I saw those guys play back in the nineties.
That's not what it is.
Polyvagal theory provides another lens for understanding these differences.
The vagus nerve, not like Las Vegas.
V-A-G-U-S has two main branches.
There's this ventral vagal, which is associated with social engagement,
with safety and connection, and then there's this dorsal vagal
that's associated with shutdown and immobilization and disconnection.
So healthy.
Jill and Jack, they had childhoods that predominantly activated
this ventral vagal system.
They learned that social engagement brings safety.
Their nervous systems develop flexibility.
They could activate when needed for challenges, but they could also
return to calm connected states.
Unhealthy.
Jill's nervous system learned to stay in this sympathetic activation,
fight or flight manifesting as this anxious pursuing because connection
was unpredictable, unhealthy Jack's nervous system learned to shift
into this dorsal vagal shutdown freeze manifest as withdrawal
because engagement felt dangerous.
So according to this polyvagal theory, we unconsciously read safety and danger
cues from others through neuroception.
I think that was a Leonardo DiCaprio movie.
But Neuroception is a subconscious detection system, healthy Jill
and Jackson, and receive cues of safety from each other.
Unhealthy.
Jill and Jackson send and receive cues of threat from each other, even when
they're consciously trying to connect.
So you've got this intergenerational transmission of attachment.
There's Research by Mary Maine and a few others that show that attachment patterns
tend to transmit across generations.
But that doesn't mean it's your destiny.
The key factor isn't whether parents had secure childhoods themselves,
but whether they've developed what main calls earned security.
That's the ability to coherently understand their own attachment history,
which is what we're trying to do here, and then how it affects 'em healthy.
Jill's parents likely had secure attachments themselves
or they'd done work.
That's the key to, to heal from insecure attachments and develop security.
Unhealthy Jill's parents were likely still operating from their
own unhealed attachment wounds.
Her mom's anxiety might have stemmed from her own childhood
neglect, and it creates a cycle.
Somebody we've gotta break the cycle.
The same applies to Jack's parents.
The good news from research attachment patterns can change, but it takes therapy,
introspection work, conscious self-work, corrective relationship experiences,
uncomfortable things people can move from insecure to secure attachment.
This is called earned secure attachment.
There's research on, it's a little nerdy.
Restorative mating, partner selection and attachment, and it shows patterns.
People tend to partner with others at similar levels of attachment,
security, or levels of differentiation or complimentary insecurities.
So anxious and avoidant individuals, they're drawn to each other because
there's this initial misinterpretation.
The anxious person sees the avoidant person's distance as mystery fascination.
Someone I can connect with a k, a fix or independence rather
than actually unavailability.
And then the avoidant person sees the anxious person's attention
as admiration or warmth rather than anxiety driven pursuit.
So this creates this unconscious familiarity.
Both nervous systems recognize the dynamic.
This feels familiar, even if it's painful, unhealthy, Jill's nervous system
recognized Jack's emotional distance.
It was her mom's unavailability and her dad's absence that felt like
home even though it wasn't safe.
So there is hope.
Harville Hendricks, the guy who founded Imago Theory suggests we
unconsciously choose partners who can recreate our childhood wounds
because we're trying to heal him.
That is deep.
That is our nervous system is trying unhealthy.
Jill unconsciously hoped if I can get Jack to stay present and engaged, I'll finally
heal the wound of my mom's inconsistency.
Unhealthy.
Jack unconsciously hopes if I can be with Jill without being
overwhelmed, I will finally heal the wound of my dad's criticism.
But then let's, let's we're in the relationship and good old
confirmation bias comes knocking.
Once in the relationship, each person's behavior now confirms
the other's core beliefs.
Jill's pursuing confirms Jack's belief that actually people want too much.
I know this story.
And then he withdraws and Jack's withdraw confirms Jill's
belief that aha, it is true.
People always leave, but secure individuals are drawn toward
each other because they have this accurate perception.
Healthy Jill correctly perceive Jack's calm as calm, as genuine
security, not avoidance healthy.
Jack correctly perceive Jill's warmth as genuine care, not anxiety driven pursuit.
And if you're wondering, okay, but if I'm, if I think I am secure,
but why am in a insecure pairing?
The research actually shows that secure, insecure pairings are very rare.
When a secure person dates an insecure person, the mismatch
usually becomes pretty apparent.
There's research by a guy named Jeffrey Simpson, and he says that
with secure individuals, they detect insecure partners faster because
they have clear internal reference points for what healthy connection
feels like, and they're less likely.
This is key to make excuses for problematic behavior, and they
exit relationships earlier.
When they consistently feel dysregulated, they don't interpret pursuing or
withdrawing as passion or mystery.
They recognize it as this is insecurity and I can't fix it.
I know I can't.
And meanwhile, insecure individuals often then feel really uncomfortable
with the steadiness that secure people offer because it doesn't
activate their familiar patterns.
So they'll misinterpret behavior as boring to available or lacking chemistry
because it is so unfamiliar, they unconsciously create drama or they
test to recreate familiar dynamics, and then they struggle to trust the
consistency because it's unfamiliar.
What's this guy's angle with?
With him continually saying he wants to hang out, spend time with me,
and he's willing to gimme space?
What's he up to?
If a secure person stays with an insecure person long enough?
Research shows that there are two possible outcomes.
The insecure person begins to move towards security if they're open to it.
Secure person maintains healthy boundaries.
The secure person begins to move toward insecurity if they sacrifice
their boundaries and they become enmeshed in the insecure dynamics.
But most of the time, these pairings end before either transformation
occurs because the secure person recognizes their relationship isn't
meeting their needs and they exit.
So this story does not have to end with unhealthy Jack and Jill
trapped in their pattern attachment.
Research offers hope people can change.
Mary Main's research on earned security shows that adults who had insecure
childhoods can develop secure attachments through therapeutic relationships.
A consistent attuned therapist can provide the co-regulation
that was missing in childhood.
That's.
Part of, there's so many benefits to therapy.
I have to say that when somebody is expressing their emotions and getting the
scary things outta their head, or the RU or the loops or the ruminations to someone
that is not saying, well, I wouldn't have done that, or, why'd you do that?
Or, well, here's what I would do, or, that seems like you could've done that better.
No, it's like, tell me more.
Help me understand.
You are calming that person's anxiety as they express things to somebody
that is safe and helps you co-regulate what was missing in childhood.
Over time therapy clients can internalize the therapist's steadiness and they
can develop their own capacity for self-regulation and healthy relationships.
Also, we need to find friendships that are safe and steady and secure.
Friendships, mentors, romantic partners who model secure attachment
can help rewire insecure patterns.
That's why some people with insecure childhoods develop security through
a long-term secure partnership, but they have to be open to that
experience and aware, self-reflection and integration becomes key.
It's important to develop what Dan Siegel calls mine site, the ability to observe
and understand your own mental processes that'll help you recognize your patterns
and help you make conscious choices and get you out of operating on autopilot.
And then Mary Mains research emphasizes this importance of developing
a coherent narrative about your childhood and how it affected you.
When a therapist says, let's talk about your childhood, it's not
about having a perfect childhood.
It's about being able to talk about your childhood with clarity and acknowledge
both positive and negative aspects without minimizing, glorifying, making
excuses for becoming overwhelmed.
That's one of the biggest takeaways I hope you'll get from today, is
that as you can talk about things and with someone that can co-regulate
and it feels calm, it's slowly
, rewiring your own central nervous system.
That's part of what helps you become okay because you realize that I can talk about
these difficult things with someone, maybe borrow their regulation system for a while
and I can then integrate it into mine.
So imagine unhealthy Jack and Jill after years of this pursue withdrawal
cycle, and they hit a crisis point.
Maybe one of 'em threatens divorce.
Maybe they sit in couple's therapy sessions for an extended amount of
time and the therapist helps 'em see the pattern for the first time.
The therapist might help 'em understand this isn't about who's right and wrong.
They're each operating from these old nervous system wirings.
They're not fundamentally incompatible.
They're stuck in a dance.
Their childhood's taught 'em, and you can learn new steps to the dance,
but it requires both people to be willing to look at their own patterns.
If Jill does her work, she might learn to notice when her anxiety about
abandonment is driving her behavior.
Self-soothe.
When Jack needs space, rather than immediately pursue communicator needs
directly, rather than test whether Jack will notice these covert contracts.
Build other sources of co-regulation, friends, therapy, somatic exercises,
breathing, yoga, exercise.
Recognize that her worth isn't determined by Jack's emotional
availability in any given moment.
And if Jack does his work, he might learn to notice when his shutdown is a
defense mechanism instead of a genuine need for space, he can learn to stay
present with Jill's emotions without seeing them as overwhelming or threatening
and communicate when he needs space in ways that reassure rather than abandon.
I need an hour to process, but I want to come back and talk and follow through on
it and recognize that vulnerability is not weakness and that Jill's needs, they
aren't demands, they're not criticisms, and so they need to practice turning
toward each other rather than turning away even when it's uncomfortable
With time and therapy and conscious effort, an unhealthy Jack and Jill can
slowly shift toward earned security.
Their nervous systems can gradually learn that connection can be safe,
and conflict can be resolved.
That vulnerability can be met with care and it doesn't need
to be criticism or collapse.
Or giving in or withdraw or attack.
But the process is not quick and it is not easy I have maintained that.
I think it takes a good anywhere between two to five years to
change that implicit memory.
This is my take no research behind it to change your implicit memory
or what it feels like to be you, because that's based off of the slow
residue of your lived experience.
And when you throw the acceptance and commitment therapy lens into
there of every single moment of your life is the first time that
you've ever been in that moment.
So check that out.
And your thoughts and feelings and emotions aren't too much, they're not
odd, they're not, you're not broken.
You're a human being going through life for the first time.
So check this out.
This is how I'm feeling.
This is what I'm thinking.
And sometimes I forget and sometimes I take a few steps
forward and a few steps back.
Isn't that fascinating?
' cause the research says it takes years of consistent effort, but I don't want that.
Well, you are allowed to have it feel overwhelming and a
lot, but make space for that.
Attachment isn't fixed.
It's not.
It's not in concrete.
It's responsive to ongoing experiences.
Neuroplasticity is real.
Dan Siegel's work on interpersonal neurobiology emphasizes that the
brain remains plastic throughout life and not the cheap kind of
plastic that bad toys are made of.
New experiences create new neuro pathways.
Repeated experiences strengthen those pathways.
For better or worse, if unhealthy, Jack and Jill commit to changing their pattern.
Every instance of Jill's self-soothing instead of pursuing strengthens her
brain's capacity for self-regulation.
And every instance of Jack staying present instead of withdrawing strengthens his
brain's capacity for emotional intimacy.
And slowly, with enough repetition and coming back to it and acknowledging and
taking ownership and giving yourself grace and your partner, these new patterns
become as automatic as the old ones were.
This is the promise of neuroplasticity.
We're not doomed to repeat our childhood patterns forever.
We can create new ones through conscious, repeated effort, but it's important and
ideal when both partners can participate.
For couples work to succeed in moving from insecurity to security, both partners need
to be willing to do their individual work.
If one is not, then you still get to do your individual work,
I promise that will help you.
One person can't heal the relationship alone, but they can figure
themselves out in the relationship.
If only Jill does therapy and Jack refuses to look at his patterns,
Jill might develop more security.
She's also likely to eventually see the relationship as not healthy because
it no longer fits who she's becoming.
If only Jack does the therapy and Jill continues to anxiously pursue, Jack
might develop better boundaries, but the relationship will still feel like
a source of stress rather than support.
The research is pretty clear that relationship transformation requires
both people to engage in their own growth while simultaneously working
on the relationship dynamics.
So let's wrap this thing up.
These stories of the two versions of Jack and Jill illustrate a central
truth from an attachment research and an interpersonal neurobiological lens.
Our early experiences shape, but they don't determine our relationship patterns.
The unhealthy version shows how childhood insecurities can create painful adult
dynamics, not because anybody was bad or wrong, but because nervous
systems wired for self-protection will continue to protect themselves in ways
that worked in childhood, but they damage relationships in adulthood.
The healthy version shows how childhood security creates adult relationships that
feel nourishing instead of depleting, not because anybody's perfect and nobody
has problems, but our nervous systems are wired for connection and we can
continue to seek and create healthy connection and we figure things out
and then this possibility of earned security shows that change is possible.
But it's, it's not easy and it's not quick, but it is worth it.
The mind is both embodied and relational.
We are shaped by our relationships and we shape our relationships.
This is both a challenge and it's an opportunity if relationships
can wire us for insecurity.
Relationships can also rewire us for security.
The key is awareness and willingness and time, and becoming conscious of
our patterns and being willing to do the uncomfortable work of changing them
and giving ourselves the time needed for our new neural pathways to form.
Whether we're talking about Jack and Jill or any couple or our own
relationships, the invitation's the same.
To recognize that how we show up in our relationships comes from somewhere,
and to have compassion for the wounds that created our patterns, and to
courageously choose growth, even when our nervous systems are telling
us, stick with the familiar 'cause.
Ultimately, that's what attachment security offers.
Not a life without struggle or conflict, but a life where connection can be
a resource for navigating struggle instead of a source of additional pain.
And that difference between relationships that drain us and
the relationships that sustain us and allow us to grow and thrive.
That is shaped in a large part by this neural wiring that's built through
thousands of small moments starting in childhood, but also continuing
throughout the rest of your life.
You've got this, this is a big step to be so aware and if you need to look for help
now, do it and start working on things.
Give me your questions, send them in.
I'll do a question and answer episode or two or 10 because this is so important.
If you need help, find it.
Taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with
her song, it's wonderful because I hope I'm selling it to you.
Life can be wonderful.
It does take a little bit of work.
Have a great week.
We'll see you next time on the virtual couch.