WEBVTT 00:00:23.129 --> 00:00:26.989 So let me ask you something. What if the way that you react to your partner, 00:00:27.289 --> 00:00:31.389 your kids, your coworkers, even strangers, somebody that you run into on the 00:00:31.389 --> 00:00:33.769 street isn't really about them at all. 00:00:34.189 --> 00:00:38.569 What if it's actually about the story that not your brain, but your nervous 00:00:38.569 --> 00:00:40.489 system learned decades ago. 00:00:40.889 --> 00:00:44.289 If you're driving to work and somebody cuts you off, your heart jumps, 00:00:44.529 --> 00:00:46.389 maybe your grip tightens on the steering wheel. 00:00:46.529 --> 00:00:49.489 And for a split second, your body floods with adrenaline. 00:00:49.749 --> 00:00:52.769 There's nothing you can do about it. You did not decide to react that way. 00:00:53.009 --> 00:00:54.409 Your nervous system just did 00:00:54.409 --> 00:01:00.169 it. It recognized danger, even though you weren't necessarily in danger. 00:01:00.769 --> 00:01:04.949 Or you walk into a room and somebody looks at you just a little bit too long 00:01:04.949 --> 00:01:08.549 and you get anxious or your stomach drops and your brain starts skinning. 00:01:08.749 --> 00:01:09.889 Did I say something weird? 00:01:10.129 --> 00:01:12.869 Or do I know that person? Do I have something on my shirt? 00:01:13.769 --> 00:01:17.349 Meanwhile, your body is already halfway through a threat response. 00:01:17.809 --> 00:01:21.189 Or maybe you send a text to somebody that you care about and they don't respond 00:01:21.189 --> 00:01:23.809 for 30 minutes, an hour, a few hours. 00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:27.849 And the more that you think about it without even thinking, your chest tightens 00:01:27.849 --> 00:01:30.849 and your mind starts writing this story, creating this narrative. 00:01:31.289 --> 00:01:35.529 Did I do something to upset them? Are they mad at me? I don't even know what I did wrong. 00:01:35.689 --> 00:01:39.429 And before you know it, you're spiraling, even though there's no evidence of a problem. 00:01:40.342 --> 00:01:43.262 That's actually your nervous system, and it's doing its job. 00:01:43.522 --> 00:01:47.682 It's constantly scanning the world for cues of safety or danger. 00:01:47.682 --> 00:01:51.562 It's what's kept you alive, and it's not necessarily conscious. 00:01:51.702 --> 00:01:55.702 It's instinctive, and it's not just responding to what's happening right now. 00:01:56.322 --> 00:02:00.802 It's responding to what has happened before because your body remembers. 00:02:01.022 --> 00:02:04.522 It remembers the tone that your parents used when they were disappointed in you. 00:02:04.622 --> 00:02:06.342 It remembers the feeling in 00:02:06.342 --> 00:02:10.222 your stomach when somebody withdrew their attention when you were a kid. 00:02:10.342 --> 00:02:14.502 It remembers the tension that filled the room before an argument ever started 00:02:14.502 --> 00:02:16.262 with a friend of yours in high school. 00:02:16.902 --> 00:02:22.022 So your nervous system, in the name of keeping you safe, starts predicting, 00:02:22.282 --> 00:02:27.282 anticipating, bracing for what it learned a long time ago might and it thinks 00:02:27.282 --> 00:02:28.442 most likely is going to come next. 00:02:28.862 --> 00:02:32.062 So here's where it gets kind of fascinating. And honestly, it can be a little 00:02:32.062 --> 00:02:33.242 bit heartbreaking at times, too. 00:02:33.842 --> 00:02:38.422 Now we bring those same nervous system patterns into our modern day relationships. 00:02:39.022 --> 00:02:42.862 So if your partner gets quiet, your body might interpret it as rejection, 00:02:42.862 --> 00:02:46.142 even if they're just tired or if they're thinking about something else. 00:02:46.642 --> 00:02:50.002 Or when you sense conflict coming, your brain might go into fight, 00:02:50.202 --> 00:02:55.622 flight, or freeze mode or fawn or fib, not because of them, but because of how 00:02:55.622 --> 00:02:57.322 your body learned to survive connection. 00:02:58.122 --> 00:03:04.162 That's what makes relationships so fascinating, so complex that your nervous 00:03:04.162 --> 00:03:08.102 system is reading cues that your conscious mind doesn't even notice. 00:03:08.422 --> 00:03:10.622 You might think that you're responding to your partner, but you're actually 00:03:10.622 --> 00:03:15.342 responding to a lifetime of experiences, moments of comfort or chaos, 00:03:15.662 --> 00:03:18.062 presence or absence, love or withdrawal. 00:03:19.556 --> 00:03:24.956 Taught you what connection feels like. And that's what we're going to talk about a lot today. 00:03:26.296 --> 00:03:30.176 Because once you see those patterns, once you understand why your body reacts 00:03:30.176 --> 00:03:33.736 the way it does, and maybe how your partner's nervous system might be reacting 00:03:33.736 --> 00:03:38.676 in its own way, I think you can finally start to change the dance. 00:03:38.916 --> 00:03:41.476 But you first have to be aware of the dance and you might not actually be a 00:03:41.476 --> 00:03:43.616 very good dancer if I'm speaking about yours truly. 00:03:44.076 --> 00:03:46.916 So today's episode is going to give you one of the most powerful illustrations 00:03:46.916 --> 00:03:50.136 of how our past shapes the way that we love, the way that we argue, 00:03:50.336 --> 00:03:52.876 the way that we withdraw, and the way that we reconnect. 00:03:52.996 --> 00:03:57.716 So, we've got that and so much more coming upon today and probably another day's 00:03:57.716 --> 00:03:59.036 episode of The Virtual Couch. 00:04:05.845 --> 00:04:08.785 Hey everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. 00:04:08.845 --> 00:04:10.345 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:04:10.765 --> 00:04:14.625 And today, I'm bringing back your favorite couple, Jack and Jill. 00:04:15.385 --> 00:04:20.525 And I actually have received some feedback, jokes mainly, which I love. 00:04:21.005 --> 00:04:24.925 Something about why haven't I responded on, did they ever recover from falling 00:04:24.925 --> 00:04:26.985 down the hill or getting the pail of water? 00:04:27.085 --> 00:04:30.665 I've even forgot the childhood nursery rhyme, but it's just easy to think in 00:04:30.665 --> 00:04:34.905 terms of Jack and Jill. They are not a real couple, at least not in the literal sense. 00:04:35.045 --> 00:04:37.945 But this Jack and Jill is a composite and it is built from hundreds and hundreds 00:04:37.945 --> 00:04:41.145 of very real couples that I've worked with over 20 years as a couples therapist. 00:04:41.425 --> 00:04:42.705 The names are fictional, but 00:04:42.705 --> 00:04:46.085 the dynamics and the emotions and the struggles are as real as it gets. 00:04:46.505 --> 00:04:49.325 And in this episode, you're going to hear two parallel stories. 00:04:49.665 --> 00:04:53.905 If you've listened to me for much time at all, I like to reference the concept 00:04:53.905 --> 00:04:55.785 of the choose your own adventure books. 00:04:56.485 --> 00:05:01.325 And that is just this muse that sticks in my head often. So today I've laid 00:05:01.325 --> 00:05:05.565 out two possible versions of Jack and Jill's lives. 00:05:05.745 --> 00:05:09.005 One path is going to show how unresolved childhood experiences, 00:05:09.365 --> 00:05:14.965 insecure attachment styles, how those things can lead to a classic anxious and 00:05:14.965 --> 00:05:19.365 avoidant pattern of pursue and withdrawal dance that so many couples find themselves stuck in. 00:05:20.024 --> 00:05:23.144 And then I'm going to show what it looks like when those same early experiences 00:05:23.144 --> 00:05:26.284 are met with emotional attunement, with a secure attachment, 00:05:26.484 --> 00:05:32.564 with repair, with healthy co-regulation, which is the foundation of a healthy relationship. 00:05:32.564 --> 00:05:36.804 And I will maintain, I do not know of many, if anyone, 00:05:37.044 --> 00:05:40.884 who had that in their childhood, because we are just finally starting to talk 00:05:40.884 --> 00:05:45.644 more and more about emotions and differentiation and being okay as you are and 00:05:45.644 --> 00:05:52.684 what our role is as a parent to hopefully guide and help our kids find their path. 00:05:52.864 --> 00:05:57.004 Not just, hey, you will make me so proud if you do this thing that I always wanted to do. 00:05:57.484 --> 00:06:00.504 So we're going to explore what their childhoods taught them about love, 00:06:00.784 --> 00:06:03.964 about safety and connection, and how those early lessons shaped the way that 00:06:03.964 --> 00:06:06.384 they respond to conflict and to stress and to each other. 00:06:06.864 --> 00:06:10.464 You're going to hear a lot of terms like attachment theory and interpersonal 00:06:10.464 --> 00:06:13.384 neurobiology, co-regulation, earned, secure attachment. 00:06:13.664 --> 00:06:17.564 But I'm going to connect those dots as we go along. And here's what I really 00:06:17.564 --> 00:06:20.524 want you to think about as you listen. Where do you see yourself in these stories? 00:06:21.204 --> 00:06:23.884 Do you relate more to Jill? Are you anxious? 00:06:24.564 --> 00:06:28.224 Are you the pursuer? Are you trying to keep the connection alive? 00:06:28.504 --> 00:06:33.444 Do you find yourself wracked with guilt or shame or wondering what is wrong 00:06:33.444 --> 00:06:35.804 with you if your partner isn't continually checking in and saying, 00:06:35.804 --> 00:06:37.684 I'm here, I love you, we're good? 00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:41.869 Or do you more identify with Jack? Are you the withdrawer? 00:06:42.029 --> 00:06:44.469 Are you the avoidant attachment? Are you trying to always keep things calm? 00:06:44.629 --> 00:06:47.129 Are you one who thinks, no, I need to do it myself? 00:06:47.589 --> 00:06:50.609 And maybe secretly, I don't want to do it myself, but that's the only person 00:06:50.609 --> 00:06:54.789 that I can trust. Often leaving your partner feeling alone, but not sure what to do about it. 00:06:55.289 --> 00:06:58.289 And at times just thinking, you know what, we'll deal with it later. 00:06:58.529 --> 00:07:00.249 I'm good at kicking that can down the road. 00:07:00.709 --> 00:07:03.369 Or maybe you're both, depending on the day. Sometimes you feel a little more 00:07:03.369 --> 00:07:04.929 anxious. Sometimes you feel a little 00:07:04.929 --> 00:07:07.429 more avoidant. Sometimes you're the withdrawer. Sometimes you pursue. 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:11.269 But a way to ask yourself as you listen to these stories, what happens inside 00:07:11.269 --> 00:07:14.989 your nervous system when somebody pulls away or when somebody gets too close? 00:07:15.549 --> 00:07:18.749 Because I think a lot of people, especially the anxiously attached, 00:07:18.969 --> 00:07:22.249 think, no, all I want is for somebody to pursue me, for somebody to just be 00:07:22.249 --> 00:07:23.649 so genuinely curious about me. 00:07:23.769 --> 00:07:27.509 But then if we find ourselves in those situations, it's so uncommon that we 00:07:27.509 --> 00:07:30.769 don't even recognize that this is somebody that is trying to see me. 00:07:31.329 --> 00:07:35.729 And I'll dismiss that person. No, no. I want the person who won't pay attention 00:07:35.729 --> 00:07:39.849 to me or won't see me. that's the one that I want to see me and to pay attention to me. 00:07:40.586 --> 00:07:43.546 Because I think once you can start to see these patterns, you really can, 00:07:43.786 --> 00:07:47.386 I won't go as far as to say immediately change them, but you have to know what 00:07:47.386 --> 00:07:49.706 they are. And then you have to see what your own role is. 00:07:49.806 --> 00:07:52.666 And then you can start to change the way that you show up in a relationship or dynamic. 00:07:52.846 --> 00:07:56.446 And that will give it a chance to shift the dynamic or the relationship. 00:07:56.886 --> 00:08:00.526 You can at least start to change how you show up. So as you listen, 00:08:00.746 --> 00:08:04.426 I would love for you to share with me what stands out to you. 00:08:04.526 --> 00:08:06.426 What questions come up? Where do you see yourself? 00:08:06.866 --> 00:08:10.566 Email me, send me messages, reach out through social media at virtual.com. 00:08:10.586 --> 00:08:15.306 Couch on Instagram or at virtual couch on TikTok or find me on Substack. 00:08:15.426 --> 00:08:19.406 I'm putting out a lot of content on Substack because I'm building a lot of this 00:08:19.406 --> 00:08:23.906 content or courses or conversations around the topic of marriage, 00:08:24.246 --> 00:08:29.006 of partnership, of relationships, of this push and pull, this anxious and avoidant, 00:08:29.466 --> 00:08:33.906 this pursuer and withdrawal, what brings us together, what pulls us apart and 00:08:33.906 --> 00:08:37.726 how we can repair or recover, whether we stay in a relationship or whether we 00:08:37.726 --> 00:08:39.946 have to make that difficult decision to move on from one. 00:08:40.586 --> 00:08:44.786 And I honestly believe this might be one of the, it sounds so cliched, 00:08:45.026 --> 00:08:48.346 but most powerful episodes that I have shared because I've spent a lot of time 00:08:48.346 --> 00:08:52.286 trying to capture the why behind so much of what happens in couples therapy. 00:08:52.706 --> 00:08:57.906 So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's meet Jack and Jill and see how two 00:08:57.906 --> 00:09:01.786 people started to become the people that they are, how they found each other 00:09:01.786 --> 00:09:04.746 in relationships, both in a healthy way and in an unhealthy way. 00:09:05.326 --> 00:09:08.486 So let's start with the unhealthy path, and we're going to begin with Jill. 00:09:08.906 --> 00:09:12.486 So Jill was around seven years old, the first time that she realized that her 00:09:12.486 --> 00:09:14.326 mom wasn't really like other moms. 00:09:14.726 --> 00:09:18.226 She would come home from school excited about making an honor roll or burst 00:09:18.226 --> 00:09:20.666 through the front door. She's ready to share any kind of news. 00:09:20.946 --> 00:09:24.406 And she would often find her mom on the couch in the same position that she'd 00:09:24.406 --> 00:09:27.806 been in that morning, maybe just watching TV or reading a book, 00:09:28.006 --> 00:09:32.086 kind of staring at nothing, maybe her phone in hand, not really looking at it much. 00:09:32.946 --> 00:09:36.566 One day, Jill says, mom, I made the honor roll. And she waves a certificate. 00:09:36.566 --> 00:09:40.786 It. And her mom barely glanced up. She's like, oh, that's nice, honey. 00:09:41.819 --> 00:09:45.179 And then she returned her gaze into the middle distance or back onto her phone. 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:51.079 And her mom had missed the award ceremony that can seem silly at times to a 00:09:51.079 --> 00:09:54.439 parent, but it can be just so important to a kid. 00:09:55.059 --> 00:09:58.739 And Jill remembers feeling something deflate inside of her chest. She went to her room. 00:09:58.939 --> 00:10:01.939 She put her certificate in a drawer and she started on her homework. 00:10:02.099 --> 00:10:05.339 She told herself that it's no big deal. Mom was just tired. 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:07.599 Two hours later, then her mom 00:10:07.599 --> 00:10:10.719 appeared in her doorway and her mascara was smudged and her eyes were red. 00:10:10.719 --> 00:10:13.559 I am such a terrible mom she said you made the honor roll 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.339 and i barely reacted and i didn't even make it to your school today i really 00:10:16.339 --> 00:10:18.999 wanted to be there you must think that i don't love you you must think that i'm 00:10:18.999 --> 00:10:23.459 the worst mom in the whole world now jill stood up she felt so bad for her mom 00:10:23.459 --> 00:10:26.699 she crossed the room she put her arms around her mom no no mom you're not it's 00:10:26.699 --> 00:10:29.079 okay i know you're tired i know you have a lot of things going on it's fine 00:10:29.079 --> 00:10:33.639 really jill the seven-year-old held her mom while her mom cried and jill patted 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.979 her back the way her mom should have been patting hers the honor roll certificate stayed in the drawer. 00:10:38.599 --> 00:10:43.199 This was the pattern of Jill's childhood. Her mom struggled with untreated anxiety and depression. 00:10:43.459 --> 00:10:48.579 She would oscillate between emotional absence and then sometimes being emotionally flooded. 00:10:48.859 --> 00:10:51.739 And when Jill was upset, sometimes her mom didn't notice at all. 00:10:51.959 --> 00:10:55.159 Sometimes she noticed, but she didn't really respond. And sometimes, 00:10:55.359 --> 00:10:59.359 most confusingly, Jill's emotions would then trigger her mom's complete collapse. 00:10:59.499 --> 00:11:02.359 And suddenly Jill would find herself managing her mom's feelings 00:11:02.359 --> 00:11:07.699 about jill's feelings so jill never knew what version she would get but what's 00:11:07.699 --> 00:11:12.179 so important to recognize is this is what jill knew this was normal this was 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:15.939 the familiar when she came home after not making a soccer team when she was 00:11:15.939 --> 00:11:20.999 around nine or ten her mom barely looked up when she got a b on a math test at ten her mom. 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:24.950 Pretty upset, spiraled into self-recrimination about her being a bad parent 00:11:24.950 --> 00:11:28.010 who didn't help enough with homework. And then she went on to talk about how 00:11:28.010 --> 00:11:29.070 she was never good at math. 00:11:29.530 --> 00:11:33.670 And Jill ended up comforting her. When Jill's first boyfriend broke up with 00:11:33.670 --> 00:11:37.790 her at 15, her mom said, well, you'll get over it. And she went back to scrolling on her phone. 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:41.670 Jill's father was physically present, but he was pretty emotionally absent. 00:11:41.910 --> 00:11:46.530 He was a kind man who worked a lot of hours and he seemed relieved to go into 00:11:46.530 --> 00:11:49.310 his workshop on weekends away from his wife's unpredictability. 00:11:49.570 --> 00:11:52.490 He never intervened. He never really modeled a different way. 00:11:52.610 --> 00:11:57.090 He just disappeared into what she would learn as she became an adult, safety. 00:11:57.930 --> 00:12:02.130 What Jill's nervous system learned, that connection is unstable and it could 00:12:02.130 --> 00:12:03.410 vanish without warning. 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:07.930 When someone withdraws, it means I did something wrong. I need to pursue harder. 00:12:08.310 --> 00:12:11.830 I need to be more. I need to do more. I need to keep people engaged. 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:15.270 What Jill learned was my feelings are either too much or they're not enough, 00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:16.530 and I really can't tell which. 00:12:17.070 --> 00:12:19.890 But I know that I'm responsible for other people's emotional states. 00:12:20.230 --> 00:12:23.170 If I can be attentive enough, if I can be just loving enough, 00:12:23.290 --> 00:12:25.850 if I can be perfect enough, then maybe people will stay. 00:12:26.430 --> 00:12:30.090 Now, by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system was wired for vigilance, 00:12:30.390 --> 00:12:34.190 hypervigilance. She scanned faces constantly looking for signs of withdrawal. 00:12:34.390 --> 00:12:37.710 She texted friends immediately, worried that if they didn't respond within an 00:12:37.710 --> 00:12:40.350 hour, then something was wrong. 00:12:40.530 --> 00:12:43.810 She volunteered for everything. She helped everybody. She made herself indispensable. 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:48.570 She was your go-to person because if she was needed, people wouldn't leave. 00:12:49.579 --> 00:12:54.159 Now, unfortunately, when she needed others, that wasn't always the same. 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:55.679 There wasn't a lot of reciprocity. 00:12:56.259 --> 00:13:00.739 There's some fascinating work by a guy named Dan Siegel. But he says that deep 00:13:00.739 --> 00:13:05.419 in this neural circuitry, Dan Siegel describes the embodied and relational mind. 00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:09.979 Jill's brain had wired itself for one central belief. Connection equals uncertainty, 00:13:09.979 --> 00:13:13.959 and I have to work constantly to secure it. Now let's cut over to Jack. 00:13:14.459 --> 00:13:18.699 Jack was nine years old when he learned that showing vulnerability was dangerous. It was scary. 00:13:19.119 --> 00:13:23.379 He had been struggling with some complex math, long division for about a week or so. 00:13:23.659 --> 00:13:26.399 His teacher had explained it two or three times, but something about the concept 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:27.659 just wouldn't click in his brain. 00:13:27.959 --> 00:13:32.239 And he felt dumb, which made it harder to think, which made him feel more, more stupid. 00:13:32.579 --> 00:13:35.099 And it was the cycle that he didn't have words for yet. 00:13:35.599 --> 00:13:39.019 His father would look over his homework one evening and his dad's face kind 00:13:39.019 --> 00:13:40.999 of hardened. What, what are you not getting? 00:13:41.439 --> 00:13:46.019 This is basic math. I mean, I was so good at this by the time I was your age. Are you even trying? 00:13:46.819 --> 00:13:51.499 Jack felt the heat flood his face and that horrible combination of shame and panic. 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.339 His dad said, I don't understand how. I don't have time for this. 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:58.499 And his father pushed the homework back across the table. You got to figure 00:13:58.499 --> 00:14:00.419 it out yourself. I'm not going to spoon feed you everything. 00:14:00.999 --> 00:14:03.259 You have to learn this yourself if you're going to be a man. 00:14:03.939 --> 00:14:06.839 Jack looked toward the kitchen where his mom was washing dishes and she had 00:14:06.839 --> 00:14:10.259 heard the whole thing. And he could tell by the way that her shoulders tensed. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:11.159 She never said anything. 00:14:12.094 --> 00:14:15.234 And Jack didn't understand why. That night, Jack heard his parents fighting 00:14:15.234 --> 00:14:16.634 behind their closed bedroom door. 00:14:17.294 --> 00:14:21.174 His mom's voice was pleading. It was barely audible. And his father's voice 00:14:21.174 --> 00:14:23.174 was harsh and cutting. And then there was silence. 00:14:23.474 --> 00:14:28.014 And then for three or four days, his dad didn't speak except for very clipped, necessary phrases. 00:14:28.274 --> 00:14:31.934 And his mom tried to act like everything was normal, serving dinner with a bright false smile. 00:14:32.234 --> 00:14:35.954 Nobody acknowledged the fight. Nobody acknowledged how Jack's dad had acted to him. 00:14:36.294 --> 00:14:40.134 Nobody came back to repair. Nobody said, I was harsh or let's try this again. 00:14:40.674 --> 00:14:43.794 So what Jack learned was when things got hard, people either attacked or they 00:14:43.794 --> 00:14:45.114 disappeared, and sometimes both. 00:14:45.754 --> 00:14:48.994 This pattern repeated throughout his childhood. When Jack was cut from a basketball 00:14:48.994 --> 00:14:51.514 team at 12, his dad said, well, if you'd have practiced more, 00:14:52.114 --> 00:14:54.894 you know, I worked a lot harder than you did, and I made all the teams I tried. 00:14:55.474 --> 00:14:58.494 When Jack was nervous before a debate competition, when he got into high school, 00:14:58.654 --> 00:15:01.254 his dad said, hey, at this point, you're prepared or you're not. 00:15:01.454 --> 00:15:03.054 I don't know why you're worrying about things. 00:15:03.674 --> 00:15:07.174 When Jack struggled after he had a dog that was close to him die at 16, 00:15:07.534 --> 00:15:10.134 his dad told him, man up, it was just a dog. 00:15:10.674 --> 00:15:15.414 And his mother never really intervened. She was very kind in small, quiet ways. 00:15:15.674 --> 00:15:18.654 She would then try to pack his favorite lunch or leave notes in his backpack, 00:15:18.654 --> 00:15:21.854 but she never stood up to his father and she never said, hey, that's too harsh. 00:15:21.974 --> 00:15:24.814 Or she didn't create space for Jack's feelings to exist without criticism. 00:15:25.214 --> 00:15:28.754 This is not to criticize his mom. It wasn't that his mom didn't try, 00:15:28.994 --> 00:15:32.594 but she would find that when she tried, things got worse for her and for Jack. 00:15:33.054 --> 00:15:38.294 So what Jack's nervous system learned, showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection. 00:15:38.674 --> 00:15:41.274 That other people's emotions are dangerous and they're overwhelming. 00:15:41.434 --> 00:15:44.834 So when conflict arises, disappearing is your only safe option. 00:15:44.834 --> 00:15:47.734 If I stay quiet, if I shut down, eventually things blow over. 00:15:48.652 --> 00:15:51.872 Being needed feels like being trapped. Feelings are weakness, 00:15:51.872 --> 00:15:53.292 and weakness gets punished. 00:15:54.112 --> 00:15:58.012 What Jack learned was connection means somebody will either criticize me or fall apart on me. 00:15:58.452 --> 00:16:01.912 And Jack became the kid who seemed fine with everything. He didn't ask for help. 00:16:01.952 --> 00:16:03.832 He didn't share when things were hard. 00:16:03.972 --> 00:16:07.032 He learned to solve problems alone in his room with the door closed. 00:16:07.212 --> 00:16:10.352 He learned that his father's criticism hurt less if he didn't react to it. 00:16:10.652 --> 00:16:15.132 He learned that the safest place was inside his own head where nobody could see him. 00:16:15.832 --> 00:16:17.112 So by the time Jack left for college, 00:16:17.312 --> 00:16:20.072 his nervous system was wired for self-protection through withdrawal. 00:16:20.672 --> 00:16:23.792 Emotions, whether they were his own or others, they felt like threats. 00:16:24.272 --> 00:16:28.952 Closeness felt like suffocation. Independence was the only thing that felt like survival. 00:16:29.152 --> 00:16:33.652 So deep in his neural circuitry, in the place where interpersonal neurobiology 00:16:33.652 --> 00:16:39.312 tells us our relational patterns get encoded, Jack's brain had wired itself for one central belief. 00:16:39.472 --> 00:16:42.532 Connection equals danger, and I have to protect myself through distance. 00:16:43.212 --> 00:16:47.272 So how did Jack and Jill find each other? They met at a professional conference 00:16:47.272 --> 00:16:48.712 when they were both in their mid-20s. 00:16:48.832 --> 00:16:52.192 Jill was attending sessions and networking actively and making conversation easily. 00:16:52.412 --> 00:16:55.472 And Jack noticed her across the lobby during this opening reception. 00:16:55.752 --> 00:16:58.072 She had a warmth that seemed to just draw people in. 00:16:58.372 --> 00:17:01.472 But unlike the other extroverts who seemed to be working the room, 00:17:01.632 --> 00:17:05.292 which was kind of off-putting to him, she actually seemed to listen when people talked. 00:17:05.892 --> 00:17:08.752 When they ended up in the same small group discussion, Jill asked Jack about 00:17:08.752 --> 00:17:11.552 his work and she made eye contact. And she leaned in slightly and she remembered 00:17:11.552 --> 00:17:13.592 details that he had mentioned earlier. 00:17:13.952 --> 00:17:17.272 So for Jack, who'd spent his life at this point feeling either criticized or 00:17:17.272 --> 00:17:21.812 invisible, this attention felt like he was finally seen. Somebody thinks I'm interesting. 00:17:22.132 --> 00:17:25.692 Somebody wants to know about me. For Jill, Jack seemed different from other 00:17:25.692 --> 00:17:28.752 guys that she dated. He was quieter. He was more reserved. 00:17:29.052 --> 00:17:31.632 He didn't dominate the conversations or perform for attention. 00:17:31.632 --> 00:17:34.572 He seemed solid. He seemed grounded. 00:17:35.212 --> 00:17:40.452 So after a lifetime of her mom's emotional chaos, Jack felt like peaceful waters. 00:17:40.852 --> 00:17:44.592 Finally, somebody who won't fall apart. Somebody stable that I won't have to take care of. 00:17:45.322 --> 00:17:48.462 Here's what's crazy, though. What neither of them realized, they were each attracted 00:17:48.462 --> 00:17:51.982 to a familiar dynamic, but it was disguised as its opposite. 00:17:52.162 --> 00:17:54.662 When they exchanged numbers and they started texting each other, 00:17:54.762 --> 00:17:58.462 Jill was attentive and responsive and she replied quickly and she asked thoughtful 00:17:58.462 --> 00:18:01.362 questions and she made plans and Jack loved every minute of it. 00:18:01.922 --> 00:18:04.702 After a childhood of emotional unavailability, Jill's attention felt like the 00:18:04.702 --> 00:18:08.042 opposite of his parents. She seemed genuinely interested in him. 00:18:08.922 --> 00:18:13.142 Jack's measured responses and his emotional reserve actually looked like secure 00:18:13.142 --> 00:18:16.002 masculinity to Jill. He didn't dump his feelings on her. 00:18:16.122 --> 00:18:18.482 He didn't seem needy. He didn't appear self-sufficient. 00:18:18.762 --> 00:18:21.962 So Jill starts thinking, he won't need me to manage his emotions like my mom 00:18:21.962 --> 00:18:24.062 did. It seems like he's got himself together. 00:18:24.882 --> 00:18:28.642 There's some pretty fascinating research on this dynamic, and it's very consistent. 00:18:29.262 --> 00:18:34.402 Researchers Philip Shaver and Cindy Hazen's groundbreaking work in 1987 was 00:18:34.402 --> 00:18:38.022 applying attachment theory to adult romantic relationships, and it found that 00:18:38.022 --> 00:18:41.782 people with anxious attachment patterns like Jill and avoidant attachment patterns 00:18:41.782 --> 00:18:43.962 like Jack are often drawn to each other. 00:18:44.162 --> 00:18:46.942 And it's not random. It's unconscious pattern matching. 00:18:47.662 --> 00:18:50.262 Jill's anxious attachment made her hypervigilant to connection, 00:18:50.482 --> 00:18:52.962 which initially looked like attentiveness and care. 00:18:53.182 --> 00:18:57.562 Jack's avoidant attachment made him emotionally reserved, which initially looked 00:18:57.562 --> 00:18:58.762 like stability and independence. 00:18:59.182 --> 00:19:03.042 So in these early stages of dating, before real intimacy and before stress entered 00:19:03.042 --> 00:19:06.402 the picture, these patterns hadn't activated yet. 00:19:06.902 --> 00:19:11.382 There was a researcher named Stan Tatkin. He worked in this psychobiological 00:19:11.382 --> 00:19:14.442 approach to couples therapy, which has an acronym of PACT. 00:19:14.662 --> 00:19:19.342 That work suggests that our nervous systems unconsciously seek what feels familiar, 00:19:19.622 --> 00:19:21.802 even if that familiarity is uncomfortable. 00:19:22.242 --> 00:19:25.322 So, Jill's nervous system recognized Jack's emotional distance. 00:19:26.372 --> 00:19:29.172 It was her father's workshop. It was her mother's withdrawal. 00:19:30.072 --> 00:19:32.032 Jack's nervous system recognized Jill's intensity. 00:19:32.172 --> 00:19:34.632 It was the emotional flooding he had learned to escape from. 00:19:35.032 --> 00:19:38.432 But in early dating, they couldn't both maintain the illusion. 00:19:38.672 --> 00:19:41.772 Jill wasn't yet desperate or pursuing because Jack was still responding. 00:19:42.152 --> 00:19:44.872 Jack wasn't withdrawn yet because the stakes were still low. 00:19:45.072 --> 00:19:47.652 So they were running their best versions of the patterns. 00:19:47.852 --> 00:19:50.892 Now, when I first was a therapist, I started looking at couples therapy. 00:19:51.112 --> 00:19:54.752 The first model I ever learned about was called Imago. And it was by a gentleman 00:19:54.752 --> 00:19:55.692 named Harville Hendricks. 00:19:56.412 --> 00:20:00.192 And Hendrix's Imago relationship theory proposes that we unconsciously choose 00:20:00.192 --> 00:20:05.132 partners who embody traits of our primary caregivers, both the positive also 00:20:05.132 --> 00:20:06.572 and the negative, the familiar. 00:20:06.972 --> 00:20:11.552 The unconscious hope is that this time with this person, we can get it right 00:20:11.552 --> 00:20:13.552 and that will heal this original wound. 00:20:13.672 --> 00:20:17.292 It's like we're subconsciously drawn to somebody that is familiar so we can 00:20:17.292 --> 00:20:21.412 heal because we didn't have a healing relationship with our own parents. 00:20:22.321 --> 00:20:25.561 So Jill then unconsciously hoped, if I can just be attentive enough, 00:20:25.761 --> 00:20:27.721 present enough, perfect enough, he'll stay engaged. 00:20:28.481 --> 00:20:30.741 Unlike my mom, he won't disappear. 00:20:32.061 --> 00:20:35.441 Jack unconsciously hoped, she seems warm but not overwhelming, 00:20:35.441 --> 00:20:39.301 so she won't need a whole lot from me and she won't collapse or criticize like my parents. 00:20:39.941 --> 00:20:43.901 They got engaged after about a year and a half. The proposal was lovely, according to Jill. 00:20:44.201 --> 00:20:48.601 Jack planned it thoughtfully. Jill cried happy tears. Both of them felt that they had found safety. 00:20:49.201 --> 00:20:52.881 Neither one of them at that time realized that they'd actually found familiarity instead. 00:20:53.561 --> 00:20:58.461 What does that look like in the present day? Jack and Jill have been married for a few years. 00:20:58.601 --> 00:21:01.721 Now, from the outside, they look pretty good. Good jobs, nice home. 00:21:01.981 --> 00:21:04.641 They're very friendly at social gatherings. But inside their relationship, 00:21:04.661 --> 00:21:07.641 they're locked in this dance that is slowly suffocating them both. 00:21:08.261 --> 00:21:12.521 And it's something that has happened the more that they have encountered stressors. 00:21:13.201 --> 00:21:17.201 So picture this. It was a Saturday afternoon, and here is where the pattern 00:21:17.201 --> 00:21:18.241 starts to reveal itself. 00:21:18.601 --> 00:21:22.821 Jill comes home from a mechanic with news. Their car needs a couple thousand 00:21:22.821 --> 00:21:23.961 bucks in unexpected repairs. 00:21:24.621 --> 00:21:29.141 She feels her chest tighten immediately, her thoughts racing. How will we cover this? 00:21:29.241 --> 00:21:31.121 Should I have noticed something was wrong with the car sooner? 00:21:31.341 --> 00:21:33.061 Is Jack going to be angry? Definitely my fault. 00:21:33.421 --> 00:21:35.721 She finds Jack in the kitchen and tries to keep her voice steady. 00:21:36.021 --> 00:21:41.221 Hey, I just got some news from the mechanic and we need at least two grand for the car. 00:21:41.861 --> 00:21:45.141 What's happening for Jack? His body tenses immediately. His jaw clenches. 00:21:45.481 --> 00:21:48.801 Before he's even aware of it, his nervous system is activated into defense mode 00:21:48.801 --> 00:21:51.061 because the money issue triggers something deeper. 00:21:51.201 --> 00:21:54.861 It's not just about dollars. It's about feeling trapped, responsible, 00:21:55.081 --> 00:21:58.061 burdened, like he's going to be criticized, like he doesn't make enough money. 00:21:58.581 --> 00:22:03.561 Just the very fact that Jill is expressing this must mean that she thinks he's not a good provider. 00:22:03.801 --> 00:22:07.121 It's his dad's criticism wrapped up in this adult clothing. 00:22:08.071 --> 00:22:11.971 He already thinks that you never handle things right. So what's his response? 00:22:12.351 --> 00:22:15.091 He says, seriously, are you serious right now? 00:22:15.851 --> 00:22:18.451 Oh, and his voice has an edge that makes Jill's heart rate spike. 00:22:19.111 --> 00:22:22.751 He said, I mean, I told you that we should have taken it to my guy. 00:22:22.931 --> 00:22:25.731 I swear I said that several times. Then Jill feels her panic rising. 00:22:26.131 --> 00:22:29.231 This is her mom turning away, her dad disappearing into the workshop. 00:22:29.411 --> 00:22:33.351 Jack is going to leave her emotionally, if not physically, and her nervous system screams danger. 00:22:33.511 --> 00:22:37.171 I didn't know it would be this bad. I just, then Jack just finds himself just 00:22:37.171 --> 00:22:38.791 interrupting without even thinking about it. 00:22:38.911 --> 00:22:41.731 He's like, you don't ever listen to me. I feel like you don't even know who I am. 00:22:42.171 --> 00:22:44.111 He's not even looking at it right now. He pulls out his phone. 00:22:44.231 --> 00:22:47.091 He's scrolling. I don't even know what to do right now. I can't deal with this 00:22:47.091 --> 00:22:49.431 right now. So fine, do whatever you need to do. 00:22:50.151 --> 00:22:52.891 He walks into the living room, sits on the couch, his eyes on his phone, 00:22:52.991 --> 00:22:55.971 his jaws clenched. Inside, he feels overwhelmed. 00:22:56.871 --> 00:23:00.151 Jill's stress is radiating off her in waves and his system can't handle it. 00:23:00.611 --> 00:23:05.191 He needs space. He needs distance. He needs quiet. And he just thinks shutting 00:23:05.191 --> 00:23:06.631 down is the only tool I have. 00:23:07.191 --> 00:23:09.911 It's almost like he just needs to hunker down and let the storm pass. 00:23:10.071 --> 00:23:11.751 And you know what? Jill, Jill can figure it out. 00:23:12.351 --> 00:23:16.431 If he engages, he'll either explode or he'll collapse. So, he doesn't either. He disappears. 00:23:17.613 --> 00:23:21.433 But for Jill, his withdrawal is unbearable because now it confirms every fear 00:23:21.433 --> 00:23:23.593 her childhood wired into her. I am too much. 00:23:23.873 --> 00:23:27.313 My feelings drive people away. This must be my fault. If I don't fix it right 00:23:27.313 --> 00:23:28.113 now, he's going to leave. 00:23:28.813 --> 00:23:31.573 So what does she do? She follows him into the living room. Hey, 00:23:31.653 --> 00:23:33.813 Jack, please. I just need to talk to you about this. 00:23:34.333 --> 00:23:38.053 He's silent. He's still scrolling. He's not looking up. So what does Jill do? 00:23:38.193 --> 00:23:39.913 Her voice gets louder. It gets more urgent. 00:23:40.413 --> 00:23:43.993 Hey, don't shut down. We have to handle this. Her body is doing what Dan Siegel 00:23:43.993 --> 00:23:46.413 would describe as seeking co-regulation. 00:23:46.553 --> 00:23:49.733 This is probably one of the biggest keys to today's episode. 00:23:50.013 --> 00:23:53.853 Her nervous system is trying to co-regulate, is trying to connect with his nervous 00:23:53.853 --> 00:23:55.073 system to find stability. 00:23:55.373 --> 00:23:58.333 But his nervous system is in shutdown mode. It's unavailable. 00:23:58.593 --> 00:24:01.453 So, her system ramps up higher, trying to bridge the gap. 00:24:01.553 --> 00:24:05.693 She's trying to say the things, make the right gestures and use the right mouth 00:24:05.693 --> 00:24:10.233 noises, whatever she has to do to get him to engage. Because if he doesn't engage, 00:24:10.413 --> 00:24:11.533 she doesn't know what to do. 00:24:12.213 --> 00:24:15.673 This is the pursue-withdraw cycle. This is what attachment researchers like 00:24:15.673 --> 00:24:19.873 Sue Johnson, who discovered emotionally focused therapy, have documented extensively. 00:24:20.233 --> 00:24:22.933 Jill pursues because withdrawal feels like abandonment. 00:24:23.353 --> 00:24:27.513 Jack withdraws because pursuit feels like an attack. Each person's coping mechanism 00:24:27.513 --> 00:24:29.073 triggers the other's core wound. 00:24:29.493 --> 00:24:34.333 So this is a dance, not a healthy one. If we can find ourselves in a relationship 00:24:34.333 --> 00:24:38.153 with someone with secure attachment, the other person's regulated nervous system 00:24:38.153 --> 00:24:41.733 helps regulate our own. But when both nervous systems are dysregulated, 00:24:41.993 --> 00:24:43.333 they can't co-regulate. 00:24:43.773 --> 00:24:49.253 Instead, they amplify each other's distress. The more that she gets anxious, the more he shuts down. 00:24:49.453 --> 00:24:55.113 And it's fascinating, and you can't unsee it. What's happening in their brains in this moment is. 00:24:55.837 --> 00:24:58.577 Is that when we're in relationships with someone who 00:24:58.577 --> 00:25:01.837 is securely attached then that person's 00:25:01.837 --> 00:25:05.177 regulated nervous system helps regulate her own anxious 00:25:05.177 --> 00:25:09.137 individuals become more anxious when their partner creates distance or becomes 00:25:09.137 --> 00:25:12.597 more avoidant and then avoidant individuals become more avoidant when their 00:25:12.597 --> 00:25:18.097 partner increases the pursuit or becomes more anxious and it becomes this self-reinforcing 00:25:18.097 --> 00:25:22.937 cycle the more that one person becomes anxious the more the other one becomes avoidant. 00:25:23.057 --> 00:25:26.037 And the more one becomes avoidant, the more the other one becomes anxious. 00:25:26.297 --> 00:25:29.697 And it continues and goes on and on and on. 00:25:30.667 --> 00:25:33.307 In this scenario, Jill finally shouts, fine, just sit there. 00:25:33.427 --> 00:25:35.807 I'll handle everything like I always do. She storms upstairs, 00:25:35.967 --> 00:25:37.847 she slams the bedroom door, and she starts crying. 00:25:38.467 --> 00:25:42.147 Underneath her anger is a deeper pain. I am alone. I'm always alone. 00:25:42.727 --> 00:25:47.207 Jack stays on the couch, tension slowly draining from his body now that Jill is withdrawn. 00:25:47.627 --> 00:25:49.467 He tells himself, I'll deal with 00:25:49.467 --> 00:25:52.007 it later. I'll deal with the situation tomorrow when she's calmed down. 00:25:52.367 --> 00:25:56.147 He's a master at kicking the can down the road, and he believes it in that moment. 00:25:56.547 --> 00:26:00.507 He tells himself, you know what? She just overacts everything and he doesn't 00:26:00.507 --> 00:26:04.307 recognize that his shutdown actually made her panic worse, just like he doesn't 00:26:04.307 --> 00:26:08.667 recognize that his panic about being needed made him shut down in the first place. 00:26:08.927 --> 00:26:11.347 Later that night, they move around each other very carefully. 00:26:11.647 --> 00:26:13.887 Jill makes dinner in silence. Jack eats it without a comment. 00:26:14.087 --> 00:26:15.447 Jill tries another time. 00:26:15.947 --> 00:26:20.407 Hey, can we please talk about the car? Jack sighs and says, I said, 00:26:20.487 --> 00:26:22.427 I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Can we just drop it tonight? 00:26:23.067 --> 00:26:26.267 Jill hears, hey, you don't actually matter enough to discuss this right now. 00:26:26.267 --> 00:26:30.047 What Jack means is, I actually think I need time to regulate, 00:26:30.547 --> 00:26:32.227 calm down before I can think about this. 00:26:32.807 --> 00:26:34.667 Neither knows how to actually say what they mean. 00:26:35.287 --> 00:26:38.427 This pattern repeats itself across their marriage. When Jill tries to discuss 00:26:38.427 --> 00:26:39.967 feeling disconnected, Jack shuts down. 00:26:40.407 --> 00:26:44.147 When Jack needs space, Jill interprets it as rejection and she pursues harder. 00:26:44.467 --> 00:26:47.347 They've had the same fight in various forms hundreds of times. 00:26:47.647 --> 00:26:51.907 They're not bad people. They're not even incompatible in some fundamental way. 00:26:52.207 --> 00:26:55.547 They're two people whose nervous systems were wired for opposite forms of self 00:26:55.547 --> 00:26:59.187 protection and those forms of protection now trigger each other's deepest wounds 00:26:59.187 --> 00:27:03.447 so jill's pursuit confirms jack's childhood belief that people want too much 00:27:03.447 --> 00:27:07.047 and he's never enough jack's withdrawal confirms jill's childhood belief that 00:27:07.047 --> 00:27:08.747 she's too much and people always leave, 00:27:09.327 --> 00:27:14.507 they're stuck in what stan tackin calls this insecure couple bubble their relationship 00:27:14.507 --> 00:27:18.927 amplifies threat rather than providing safety and i cannot go much further past 00:27:18.927 --> 00:27:22.707 that without saying try saying that one a few times insecure couple bubble insecure 00:27:22.707 --> 00:27:24.307 couple bubble okay maybe it's not that hard. 00:27:25.068 --> 00:27:28.268 But according to attachment research, couples like Jack and Jill have several 00:27:28.268 --> 00:27:31.708 possible paths forward. This is where we start to sniff around a little bit of hope. 00:27:32.128 --> 00:27:35.128 Now, first though, they could stay locked in this pattern and they slowly build 00:27:35.128 --> 00:27:36.288 resentment and disconnection. 00:27:36.628 --> 00:27:39.988 And what that looks like as the couple's therapist is they come in and they 00:27:39.988 --> 00:27:43.088 can't even remember what the frustration or the argument was for the week. 00:27:43.208 --> 00:27:48.208 That's what got me started down this path quite a while ago is when I'm stepping 00:27:48.208 --> 00:27:50.608 back, okay, let's go full vulnerability here. 00:27:50.808 --> 00:27:54.108 To the couple's therapist, Just, it's not about the nail. 00:27:54.268 --> 00:27:57.848 If you've ever seen that video, which is so good. And this is why I find myself 00:27:57.848 --> 00:28:02.568 talking about Taco Bell drive-thru experiences or something, 00:28:03.148 --> 00:28:06.968 I don't know, somebody wanting to cut the wick of a candle or the other person 00:28:06.968 --> 00:28:12.208 not, or somebody who wanted to buy new running socks and the other person saying, 00:28:12.368 --> 00:28:13.448 what does that mean for me? 00:28:13.868 --> 00:28:18.908 And then we end up having four-pillared connected conversations about these 00:28:18.908 --> 00:28:20.628 seemingly trivial concepts. 00:28:21.588 --> 00:28:25.448 And often one of the parties can even think, man, this is ridiculous. 00:28:25.488 --> 00:28:29.808 I'm spending how much money to talk about a drive-thru or toe socks versus regular 00:28:29.808 --> 00:28:31.268 socks because she wants to run a marathon. 00:28:31.488 --> 00:28:34.408 It's not about the socks. It's not about the nail. It's not about Taco Bell. 00:28:34.768 --> 00:28:37.568 It's about co-regulating each other's emotions. 00:28:38.088 --> 00:28:43.308 It's really from when I'm stepping back, watching someone get really big and 00:28:43.308 --> 00:28:46.908 emote and do different mouth sounds and hands gestures until they find the right 00:28:46.908 --> 00:28:49.668 combination that all of a sudden feels okay. 00:28:50.408 --> 00:28:53.348 And then I'm sitting here saying, no, you guys didn't really hear each other. 00:28:53.828 --> 00:28:57.168 They made the right facial expression and made the right sounds out of their 00:28:57.168 --> 00:29:00.828 mouth that made you feel like, okay, that makes me feel better. 00:29:01.328 --> 00:29:06.088 So, we're co-regulating our emotions and we feel like that was a connection, 00:29:06.088 --> 00:29:08.088 but we're not really learning anything more. 00:29:08.768 --> 00:29:11.668 So, they can continue building this resentment, disconnection, 00:29:12.108 --> 00:29:15.708 learning how to try to make better mouth sounds and arm gestures. 00:29:16.208 --> 00:29:18.088 And that can often lead to things like divorce. 00:29:18.688 --> 00:29:21.208 Or they can do the harder thing. They can recognize the pattern. 00:29:21.768 --> 00:29:24.848 They can understand where it comes from. And they can begin to consciously work 00:29:24.848 --> 00:29:26.508 to rewire their nervous systems together. 00:29:27.481 --> 00:29:31.721 But right now, in several years into their marriage, they don't know any of 00:29:31.721 --> 00:29:34.101 this. They just know that marriage feels exhausting. 00:29:34.781 --> 00:29:39.181 And Jill feels constantly anxious and alone. Jack feels constantly criticized and trapped. 00:29:39.681 --> 00:29:44.101 Neither realizes they're fighting ghosts from childhood that ended decades ago. 00:29:44.681 --> 00:29:47.421 So that's where we're going to leave Jack and Jill, at least for now. 00:29:47.781 --> 00:29:50.601 These are two good people. They're both doing the best that they can with the 00:29:50.601 --> 00:29:52.301 emotional wiring that life handed them. 00:29:52.661 --> 00:29:55.841 And their stories might sound extreme or they might sound really familiar. 00:29:55.841 --> 00:29:59.381 But if you've ever found yourself stuck in a loop, saying the same things, 00:29:59.601 --> 00:30:02.781 feeling the same frustrations, using the same hand gestures, 00:30:03.021 --> 00:30:06.101 uttering the same mouth noises, and these things keep happening, 00:30:06.541 --> 00:30:08.021 then you probably lived a version of this. 00:30:08.501 --> 00:30:11.661 And what's heartbreaking is that neither of them is broken. They are just running 00:30:11.661 --> 00:30:15.101 programs their nervous systems wrote decades ago, and they were protection strategies 00:30:15.101 --> 00:30:17.741 that once made sense. But now it keeps them apart. 00:30:18.201 --> 00:30:21.341 I love the work of Terry Reel and his Relational Life Therapy. 00:30:21.341 --> 00:30:25.361 It's becoming a very big part of my couple's practice where he talks about the 00:30:25.361 --> 00:30:29.441 things that were adaptive as a child are now maladaptive as an adult. 00:30:29.601 --> 00:30:31.841 It's time to let the big kids learn the right tools. 00:30:32.121 --> 00:30:34.661 And I promise that you can have a much deeper connection. 00:30:35.421 --> 00:30:38.281 Because what if I were to say, you don't have to stay that way. 00:30:38.941 --> 00:30:41.761 We're going to do a part two. And in part two, we're going to revisit Jack and 00:30:41.761 --> 00:30:44.561 Jill's lives. Same people, same world. This time, though, we're going to see 00:30:44.561 --> 00:30:46.141 what happens when their childhoods were different. 00:30:46.721 --> 00:30:49.841 When parents modeled emotional safety or repair or consistency. 00:30:50.421 --> 00:30:53.481 And you'll see how that changes the story, not just in their relationship with 00:30:53.481 --> 00:30:55.121 each other, but in how they experience themselves. 00:30:55.581 --> 00:30:58.241 Because a secure attachment doesn't mean perfection, not at all. 00:30:58.401 --> 00:31:00.381 It means connection that feels safe. 00:31:01.041 --> 00:31:05.401 And we're also going to talk about what you can do in order to get your marriage 00:31:05.401 --> 00:31:07.741 in a better spot. I did not set out. 00:31:08.657 --> 00:31:13.537 Starting this episode with any intent to sell a course or to pitch my own services. 00:31:13.737 --> 00:31:17.557 But I do have an update coming of my Magnetic Marriage course. 00:31:17.557 --> 00:31:21.377 And part of the reason why there's been such a delay in getting this update 00:31:21.377 --> 00:31:27.437 out is because I can't stop learning about ways to help you connect better in your relationship. 00:31:27.657 --> 00:31:31.557 So if you're interested, please reach out to me and let me know or follow me 00:31:31.557 --> 00:31:35.337 on Substack or on any of the social media platforms, because there's a lot coming 00:31:35.337 --> 00:31:38.037 that's going to not only add to my four pillars of a connected conversation 00:31:38.037 --> 00:31:40.537 and the work on differentiation and emotional maturity. 00:31:40.697 --> 00:31:43.797 But we're going to start talking about this co-regulating of each other's emotional 00:31:43.797 --> 00:31:46.137 states because that's a significant part. 00:31:46.757 --> 00:31:51.017 And if you are a couple, you resonate deeply with my work and you're interested 00:31:51.017 --> 00:31:52.957 in possibly working with me, reach out. 00:31:53.117 --> 00:31:57.297 Let me know a little bit more about your story because I do find some openings 00:31:57.297 --> 00:32:00.077 from time to time. I love working with people that are eager to work. 00:32:00.237 --> 00:32:04.057 So take a breath, sit with what came up for you, jot it down, 00:32:04.617 --> 00:32:10.497 reach out to me and look for part two in the next week as we explore the other 00:32:10.497 --> 00:32:14.837 path, what it looks like when love doesn't have to be earned and connection doesn't have to hurt. 00:32:15.497 --> 00:32:19.637 Thanks everybody. I hope you have an amazing week. Taking us out per usual is 00:32:19.637 --> 00:32:23.297 the wonderful, talented Aurora Florence with her song, it's wonderful because 00:32:23.297 --> 00:32:27.677 man, when you get the right tools, that can be pretty wonderful. We'll see you next week.