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Hey, everybody, welcome to the virtual couch. I'm your host,

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Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

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And today we are diving into something that you can't unsee once you see it.

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And you're going to notice it in your relationships.

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You're going to just notice it interacting with somebody at work, at the store.

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And I think it's going to change the way you see yourself.

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We're going to talk about projection. And I think it's one of those concepts

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that people will just say, oh, I think they're projecting.

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But if you really stop and say, hey, tell me what you think that means.

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I think it's one of those concepts where we kind of have an idea.

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But today, you will completely understand the concept of projection.

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Before I get started, I would love for you to follow me on everything.

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Virtual Couch at Virtual Couch on TikTok at virtual.couch on Instagram.

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I will tell you, Substack is where the fun is at. So please,

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if you're not familiar with Substack, follow the link in my show notes or Google

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Tony Overbay or Virtual Couch and Substack. I'm putting out a lot of content.

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It's a very fun platform to be able to just share a lot of thoughts,

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therapy themes of the day,

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just a lot of things that aren't quite enough to put out in a podcast and that

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I maybe haven't spent enough time to generate a reel or a TikTok video or anything

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like that. So check out Substack by now.

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Story time. So let me start with two stories from ripped right from my practice

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in the last few weeks. And I have, of course, changed details to protect confidentiality.

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But these moments were just so perfectly illustrative of this concept of projection

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that I could not wait to share them with you.

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And I almost feel like a comedian who's been trying out his bits at various

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clubs, because these stories made it into a lot of sessions.

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And this concept of projection, I know it's been my special interest over the

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last few weeks, but let me set the stage.

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So picture this, I'm sitting with a couple and I've been working with them for

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a very long time and we're almost done with the session.

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And I really, I love it when somebody can say, hey, I know this isn't something

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that we're necessarily working on in therapy, but can I just ask your professional

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opinion? And I say, of course.

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And they want to ask me a question about their teenage son. I've had a teenage

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son. I've worked with teenagers a lot in the past.

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Now, not so much. But she brings up a situation where their son has walked past

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a bag of garbage sitting outside his bedroom door for several days.

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I've just walked right by it multiple times for days. And she looks very genuinely

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confused. And she says, I'm just, I'm curious, can you explain why you think somebody would do that?

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And I realized in that moment, if you asked me the same question,

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I would have immediately said something like, you know, he probably forgot that

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it was there. I have done that with a lot of things.

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And it's not that I'm being malicious or I want to cause anyone harm or I'm

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not trying to be passive aggressive. I just don't think about it a lot of times.

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And I think if I go a little deeper in that, I have ADHD, not as an excuse, just it just is a thing.

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And so I know that that is something where I can just be so hyper focused on

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something else or impulsive, or I might even be thinking about picking up the garbage.

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And then on my way to do that, something else comes up that seems more shiny.

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So again, not out of malice, not to make a point, but because I genuinely didn't

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see it or it slipped my mind.

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And as I'm sitting there, the husband, who also is a card carry member of the

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ADHD club and has some nice guy tendencies going on, he's nodding with me.

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He's like, oh yeah, no, that's, I would feel the same way.

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But then I caught myself and I then did say out loud, but hang on,

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I'm actually projecting my own experience onto this situation.

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So I'm assuming that your son forgot because I would forget.

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But that's my frame of reference. And that doesn't necessarily mean that that's

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his reality. That is projection.

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And you could see something kind of shift in the room when I said that.

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The wife, she literally looked uncomfortable.

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And so I said, hey, what's coming up for you? What just happened there?

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And she said, I guess I really didn't understand projection, honestly.

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Because she said, I could see a situation where I would do something like that.

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And honestly, I would be doing it to send a message that I was upset. That was so powerful.

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Because there it is, the same behavior, walking past a bag of garbage.

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And we essentially have three completely different interpretations.

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Based on three completely different internal worlds. I'm thinking he forgot.

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The husband is kind of going along with that.

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Yeah, maybe he forgot, but he had some other thoughts that he wanted to interject

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there as well. And the wife is thinking he's sending a hostile message.

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Flash forward to the very next day. I'm in a session and there's a guy that I really enjoy.

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He came to me to work on his emotional immaturity and he's really been working

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hard on it, but it's not perfect. He's human.

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And he's telling me about stopping at a store on his way home from work.

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He texted his wife and said, hey, I'm going to stop at the store and I'll be

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there in just a little bit.

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I'm giving him some praise. Like, well done.

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That sounds great. Something you maybe haven't done in the past.

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So that's, I know why he was starting to tell me.

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Then he got caught on his phone in the parking lot and he was checking social

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media, maybe played a game, watched a video and he lost track of time.

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So when he finally got home, I think it had been maybe an hour past when he

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said he would and his wife was upset. And she said something to the effect of,

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how could you do something that you obviously knew was going to hurt me.

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Having this concept of projection fresh in my mind, I said, did you have any

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intention of hurting your wife when you got distracted on your phone?

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And he looked at me like I was nuts. Of course I didn't. I just lost track of time.

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But his wife's interpretation was that he knew this would hurt her and he did it anyway.

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I just asked him, do you think that she would say something similar to what this first wife said?

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And I told that story that she might do something like that deliberately to

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show you how hurt she was.

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And he said, oh, she literally told me that.

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And I said, man, projection.

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So these two situations happening back to back, it really crystallized something for me.

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And I think it will come into play in how you view yourself in your relationship,

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I think helps understand a lot around conflict.

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And honestly, I think about being human.

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So what is projection? Projection is when we unconsciously take our own thoughts,

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our own feelings, our own motivations, our own behavior patterns,

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and then we project them, we attribute them, we diffuse them,

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we hand them, we project them over onto someone else.

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So we essentially assume that other people operate from the same internal framework that we do.

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And so what we're doing is we're projecting our inner world onto this person,

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like a movie projector casting an image onto a screen, or they become the mirror.

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And we all do this, every single one of us. It's not like it's a character flaw.

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It's not like something that, oh my gosh, wait, I've caught projection.

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It's part of being a human being. Because we only understand the world through our own experiences.

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You are literally the only version of you that's ever existed,

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that's walked the face of the earth.

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You've got the whole combination of your nature and your nurture and your birth

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order, your DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams,

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your wounds, your friend groups, how your parents modeled behavior,

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experiences of loss, financial circumstances, pets, all of it.

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So you look at the world through that very specific lens.

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And the challenge is we don't realize that we are even wearing these lenses.

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We think we're seeing things very objectively, that this is reality.

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We all have an idea of what

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we would do in these situations when in reality

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we're actually seeing our interpretation of reality

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so i enjoy origin stories and i

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think it's fun to trace back and understand where this comes from

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well it comes from being human beings but the term

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projection was actually introduced by sigmund freud that guy back in the 1890s

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and while we moved past a lot of freud's ideas in modern psychology sure had

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a lot to do with his mom he really nailed this one because he initially described

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it as a defense mechanism where people attribute their own unacceptable thoughts

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or feelings or motives to,

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on to another person. And Freud saw this happen with his patients all the time.

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If somebody was angry, but they couldn't acknowledge their anger,

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they would instead perceive that everyone around them is angry.

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If somebody was struggling with their own impulses, then they would see those

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impulses in others, and then they would judge them harshly for it.

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And Freud's daughter, Anna, followed in his footsteps.

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And so she took this and she expanded on it. And then she included projection

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as one of the major defense mechanisms in her work in what was called ego psychology.

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So what she recognized was that we develop these defenses, not because we're

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broken, but because we're trying to protect ourselves from uncomfortable truths

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about our own inner world.

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Because we need to see it as rainbows and unicorns and not like we might have

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this part of us that we just really don't want to look at.

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Freud was focused on projection as this pathological defense mechanism.

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But now modern psychology recognizes that projection happens on a spectrum, as so many things do.

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There's an extreme version where somebody completely denies all of their own

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feelings and they attribute them entirely onto others.

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And I'll give you some examples of this as we go along in the episode today.

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But there's also this everyday kind of garden variety projection that we are all doing.

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So Carl Jung took this concept of projection even further, and Jung liked to

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talk about how we project our shadow, the parts of ourselves that we haven't

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integrated or the parts that we haven't acknowledged onto other people.

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So the things that trigger us the most intensely in others, often those are

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the reflections of something that we haven't dealt with within ourselves.

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So what Jung meant by integrating the shadow, integration doesn't mean to get

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rid of those parts of ourselves, these parts that we have buried deep inside.

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It means first acknowledging them, accepting them as part of who we are,

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and then learning how to bring them into our conscious awareness.

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It'll get a little woo-woo here, but I promise it'll deliver.

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Acknowledging them, bringing them into our consciousness instead of suppressing

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them and keeping them hidden in the darkness and ignoring them and pretending

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like they aren't even there.

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For example, if you have always seen yourself as a really nice person who never

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gets angry, I resonate with this one.

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Your shadow might contain all that unexpressed anger and resentment.

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So integration would mean acknowledging, you know what, actually,

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I do get those emotions. I do get angry.

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I do sometimes have aggressive impulses. And that's part of being human.

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So, once you integrate that, it doesn't mean now I'm going to go around and

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be angry and impulsive, but it means you stop projecting it onto others.

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You acknowledge it. It's a part of you and you have no bad parts.

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You stop seeing everybody else as angry or aggressive while denying it in yourself.

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Because all of a sudden I can notice, oh, I am a little bit angry about this. I am pretty frustrated.

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Oh, I'm still alive. That didn't ruin my whole self. or another example,

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if you've always prided yourself in being responsible and very disciplined,

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your shadow might contain these desires for spontaneity and pleasure and even some recklessness.

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And I see this one often where somebody just feels like they are just too responsible, too buttoned up.

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They would let everybody else down. They worry about what other people would

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think, but they have the side of them that they don't ever acknowledge.

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And it can come out in a big kind of way if it continues to be suppressed.

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So integration means acknowledging those desires exist, even if you don't act on them.

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So without integrating these parts, you might find yourself judging people who

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are spontaneous, are pleasure-seeking, but then secretly, and you may not even

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be willing to admit this, kind of envy them, or you're at least viewing it with fascination.

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What we cannot integrate, what we can't acknowledge, what we can't accept, we project.

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What we can't acknowledge in ourselves, we see and judge harshly in other people.

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And then there's been more recent research in social psychology that's shown

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that projection also serves a cognitive function.

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If you remember, our brains are these prediction machines. They are constantly

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trying to figure out what is going to happen next.

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That certainty, we desire it. We crave it so much because it really would make things pretty easy.

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Also, it would knock out a little bit of the spontaneity and the zest or the spice of life.

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But we want to know. We want to know what's happening next. And part of that

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is what are people thinking?

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What are they going to do? And to make those predictions, we use the most readily

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available data we have, our thoughts, our feelings, our motivations.

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It's not malicious. It's pretty efficient, actually.

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But it's also really inaccurate, especially when we're dealing with somebody

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who has a completely different internal world than we do, like everyone else on the planet.

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We're going to zig now, and I'm excited about this next part.

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I want to first connect to a phrase I'm hoping you have heard before.

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I often say it, so then I had to go do a little digging only to find out it

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is not actually a phrase. the phrase as I think of it is methinks thou dost protest too much,

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Here's a fun fact. People get this quote wrong. It turns out it's a line from

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Shakespeare's Hamlet, and the line is actually, the lady doth protest too much, me thinks.

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And I'm not a big Hamlet person, but it's spoken by Queen Gertrude,

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and it's when she's watching a play within the play, and one of the characters

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is making these overly elaborative promises about her loyalty.

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But apparently what Shakespeare actually meant by protest is not quite what

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we mean today. In Elizabethan English, protest meant to declare or affirm strongly

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not to object or complain.

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So Gertrude is actually saying this lady is making promises that are so big,

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so excessive, so over the top, they kind of feel sus, as the kids say. Suspicious.

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She's trying too hard to convince us. Now, kind of interesting because over

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the centuries now this phrase has come to mean more what we understand in modern

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psychology, that when someone is excessively vocal about opposing something,

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it often reveals their own internal struggle with that very thing.

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This is projection cranked up to an 11. This is Young's shadow being projected

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outward with such intensity, such ferocity that it actually starts to become

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a crusade for the person.

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This is what happens when we can't integrate a part of ourselves and we have

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to wage war against it and others. We are so scared of it. We're so repulsed by it.

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And unfortunately, I've seen this pattern play out in some of the most heartbreaking ways.

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Let me take you back to my early days as a therapist. I think it really connects

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with this idea of the shadow and projection.

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And honestly, I think it is one of those experiences that fundamentally shaped how I practice today.

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So when I first became a therapist, which was over 20 years ago,

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I worked as a trainee and then as an intern for a number of years for the LDS

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Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in their LDS Family Services department.

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It was a part-time gig. I also had a computer hardware company where I imported

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hard disk drive duplicators with custom firmware that was used in a lot of computer

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forensics and medical imaging applications.

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That was paying the bills, but honest to goodness, I loved being a therapist.

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I mean, I genuinely loved it in a way I've never experienced with work before

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and continue to look at that as the greatest career change that I could have ever experienced.

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So in that role with LDS Family Services, I found myself working with primarily three types of clients.

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The first two I talk about often, guys struggling with turning to coronography

00:14:51.754 --> 00:14:55.154
as an unhealthy coping mechanism, reach out to me, path back, recovery.

00:14:55.334 --> 00:14:57.874
But the other one was people who are navigating faith crisis,

00:14:58.054 --> 00:15:02.894
faith deconstruction, faith journeys, and that is still one of the populations

00:15:02.894 --> 00:15:04.014
I love working with the most.

00:15:04.174 --> 00:15:07.554
But then the third group I saw regularly, and this is the one that's really

00:15:07.554 --> 00:15:11.554
relevant with this exact point about the shadow and projection,

00:15:12.054 --> 00:15:15.054
were people that were coming into counseling because they were struggling with

00:15:15.054 --> 00:15:18.294
what was called then, and I don't know if they still use this term now,

00:15:18.774 --> 00:15:20.354
SSA, same-sex attraction.

00:15:21.124 --> 00:15:25.184
And I can honestly say that either I missed the memo or some training.

00:15:25.244 --> 00:15:29.364
I had an incredible clinical supervisor at the time, or actually it just didn't

00:15:29.364 --> 00:15:34.804
feel right as a human being to have somebody come in and there was a part of

00:15:34.804 --> 00:15:36.104
me that was supposed to change them.

00:15:36.224 --> 00:15:38.424
Even if they were coming in saying, you must change me.

00:15:39.064 --> 00:15:42.604
And despite this being 20 years ago, the message to the therapist,

00:15:42.604 --> 00:15:46.844
or at least to this therapist, me, was meet the client where they're at and support them.

00:15:47.144 --> 00:15:50.424
Don't try to change them. Don't do any conversion therapy or anything like that.

00:15:50.824 --> 00:15:52.944
Just be with them in their experience. Where do they want to go?

00:15:53.064 --> 00:15:56.044
You're right there beside them because who am I to know what it feels like to be that person?

00:15:56.224 --> 00:15:58.804
And that's one of those profound things that I've carried through to this day

00:15:58.804 --> 00:16:00.704
that is so helpful as a therapist.

00:16:01.404 --> 00:16:04.484
So I primarily saw guys who were hesitant to admit that they were gay.

00:16:05.064 --> 00:16:08.504
They had tried to pray the gay way. They went on missions for the church,

00:16:08.664 --> 00:16:10.464
hoping it would go away if they did that.

00:16:11.104 --> 00:16:14.304
They were hoping it would get lost in the jungles of Africa somewhere.

00:16:14.504 --> 00:16:15.744
They were overachievers.

00:16:16.104 --> 00:16:19.484
There were often people that struggled with obsessive compulsive personality

00:16:19.484 --> 00:16:25.164
disorder, or religious scrupulosity, religious OCD, hoping that they could somehow perfect it away.

00:16:25.704 --> 00:16:29.364
Many of them married women in hopes that that would be the thing that finally

00:16:29.364 --> 00:16:31.064
got rid of their same-sex attraction.

00:16:31.764 --> 00:16:36.124
But at least for the dozens and dozens and dozens of guys that I worked with,

00:16:36.364 --> 00:16:39.064
none of that worked because they were gay and that was okay.

00:16:39.364 --> 00:16:40.784
They've been gay their entire lives.

00:16:41.424 --> 00:16:44.944
And a recurring theme in those sessions was hearing about hitting puberty and

00:16:44.944 --> 00:16:47.124
their friends became interested in cheerleaders at the football game.

00:16:47.224 --> 00:16:49.964
And my clients would routinely think, holy cow, I think I'm more interested

00:16:49.964 --> 00:16:52.384
in the football player and then thinking that something's wrong.

00:16:52.724 --> 00:16:56.824
And then they started to pretend to be someone that they weren't.

00:16:57.556 --> 00:17:02.236
This is the shadow in its most painful form. It's a core part of who you are

00:17:02.236 --> 00:17:05.636
that you've been taught is unacceptable, shameful, wrong.

00:17:05.916 --> 00:17:09.716
And when we can't integrate that part of ourselves, when we can't bring it into

00:17:09.716 --> 00:17:13.896
the light and say, this is part of who I am, we suffer deeply.

00:17:14.716 --> 00:17:20.016
The LGBTQ plus issue was truly one that started me on my own faith deconstruction

00:17:20.016 --> 00:17:23.636
as I started to help others navigate their own faith deconstructions,

00:17:23.756 --> 00:17:26.796
especially those that were struggling with this same-sex attraction.

00:17:26.796 --> 00:17:31.836
Because the fact that they were struggling with it and not learning to accept it or embrace it.

00:17:32.136 --> 00:17:36.876
Because I spent hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of hours talking one-on-one

00:17:36.876 --> 00:17:40.256
with these guys who were continually feeling like they were doing their own

00:17:40.256 --> 00:17:42.696
lives wrong and that to do it right,

00:17:43.176 --> 00:17:45.956
according to people who did not know what it felt like to be them,

00:17:46.236 --> 00:17:50.576
they needed to not think the way that they thought and not feel the way that they felt.

00:17:51.076 --> 00:17:54.136
And I've thought often when I look back now and apply this lens of projection

00:17:54.136 --> 00:17:58.416
onto those clients and onto their experiences, is I see it pretty clearly that

00:17:58.416 --> 00:18:02.456
they would often hear others say, and these are well-meaning people,

00:18:02.976 --> 00:18:06.736
bless their hearts, assuming good intentions, but they would say things about

00:18:06.736 --> 00:18:08.036
how, you know, we all have our challenges.

00:18:08.396 --> 00:18:10.576
For some, it's food. For some, it might be alcohol.

00:18:11.236 --> 00:18:14.196
For some, it might be not digging into my scriptures enough.

00:18:14.596 --> 00:18:19.356
I even heard on more than one occasion, because I love chocolate,

00:18:19.856 --> 00:18:23.756
but someone who was gay being told by somebody who genuinely meant well, you know.

00:18:24.707 --> 00:18:28.067
I really struggle not to eat chocolate, but I know that that isn't good for me.

00:18:28.167 --> 00:18:31.567
So I know exactly how you feel being in a mixed orientation marriage,

00:18:31.567 --> 00:18:35.807
being married to someone that you don't have any connection or desire with,

00:18:36.427 --> 00:18:39.787
which even on a side note, I remember one of the first time somebody talked

00:18:39.787 --> 00:18:42.627
about being a chocoholic and that must be the same as an alcoholic.

00:18:43.347 --> 00:18:47.807
I don't think it is, but I can say without exception that I never had a client

00:18:47.807 --> 00:18:51.387
in any of these situations where somebody is saying, I know exactly how you

00:18:51.387 --> 00:18:55.207
feel, say, you know, I really felt seen and understood.

00:18:55.767 --> 00:19:00.247
Maybe trying to not eat popcorn is the same as trying to deny my sexuality.

00:19:00.787 --> 00:19:06.787
But that well-meaning person was projecting onto my client because they weren't

00:19:06.787 --> 00:19:08.047
struggling with their sexuality.

00:19:08.247 --> 00:19:09.487
They were assuming that, well,

00:19:09.547 --> 00:19:12.407
if I was, I would be able to handle it just like I do with chocolate.

00:19:12.967 --> 00:19:18.207
Only they weren't being told that eating chocolate was a one-way ticket to eternal

00:19:18.207 --> 00:19:19.407
hellfire and damnation.

00:19:19.887 --> 00:19:22.887
They weren't being told that their craving for chocolate meant that there was

00:19:22.887 --> 00:19:24.407
something fundamentally broken about them.

00:19:24.867 --> 00:19:27.447
And they weren't being told that if they had just enough faith,

00:19:27.547 --> 00:19:28.847
they wouldn't want chocolate anymore.

00:19:29.187 --> 00:19:32.167
They weren't being told to marry someone who hated chocolate in hopes that it

00:19:32.167 --> 00:19:33.767
would cure their own chocolate cravings.

00:19:33.987 --> 00:19:37.427
The projection was, I struggle with something I'm supposed to resist.

00:19:37.607 --> 00:19:40.687
Therefore, I understand your struggle with something you are supposed to resist.

00:19:41.467 --> 00:19:47.007
But the challenge is, were they even supposed to resist it? Or were they supposed

00:19:47.007 --> 00:19:48.587
to integrate it and accept it.

00:19:48.967 --> 00:19:52.167
The experiences weren't even remotely equivalent. The stakes weren't the same.

00:19:52.347 --> 00:19:55.447
The shame wasn't the same. The cost of giving in wasn't even in the same ballpark.

00:19:55.647 --> 00:19:58.807
So what I witnessed over and over were people projecting their own manageable

00:19:58.807 --> 00:20:00.767
struggles onto somebody else's entire identity.

00:20:01.087 --> 00:20:05.047
And in doing so, they were minimizing, dismissing, and fundamentally misunderstanding

00:20:05.047 --> 00:20:07.847
what that person was actually experiencing.

00:20:08.287 --> 00:20:11.227
And here's where it gets even more complex and honestly more heartbreaking.

00:20:11.427 --> 00:20:14.707
Here's where Jung's concept of the shadow and Shakespeare's observation about

00:20:14.707 --> 00:20:19.567
protesting too much come together in maybe it's a Shakespearean tragic kind of way.

00:20:20.413 --> 00:20:25.633
We see this pattern play out dramatically in public life, particularly around the LGBTQ plus issues.

00:20:26.053 --> 00:20:30.453
There is a phenomenon where individuals who are most vocally and aggressively

00:20:30.453 --> 00:20:35.133
opposed to things like LGBTQ plus rights and identities are later discovered

00:20:35.133 --> 00:20:38.413
to be struggling with their own sexual orientation or their gender identity.

00:20:38.833 --> 00:20:43.893
And at that time, I remembered these two things that were big in the headlines.

00:20:44.013 --> 00:20:47.153
And it was when I was really working with a lot of clients that were struggling

00:20:47.153 --> 00:20:48.213
with the same-sex attraction.

00:20:48.713 --> 00:20:53.313
2006-2007. First, Ted Haggard. In 2006, Ted Haggard was the president of the

00:20:53.313 --> 00:20:56.933
National Association of Evangelicals, and that was a position of significant

00:20:56.933 --> 00:20:59.453
influence representing millions of conservative Christians.

00:20:59.773 --> 00:21:05.013
He was a very powerful voice against same-sex marriage, against LGBTQ plus rights,

00:21:05.473 --> 00:21:08.633
particularly preaching about what he called the sin of homosexuality.

00:21:09.173 --> 00:21:13.073
Then a male escort came forward, revealing that Haggard had been paying him

00:21:13.073 --> 00:21:16.453
for sex and buying methamphetamine for him for years.

00:21:16.973 --> 00:21:21.153
And Haggard initially denied it. And then he eventually admitted to sexual immorality

00:21:21.153 --> 00:21:23.813
and even acknowledged his struggles with his sexuality.

00:21:24.553 --> 00:21:28.853
Or anytime I travel or fly, and I asked somebody about this this morning,

00:21:29.153 --> 00:21:32.293
they are, I think in their late twenties and they don't remember this at all.

00:21:32.713 --> 00:21:37.813
But when I fly, and if I have to go into a bathroom stall to take care of things,

00:21:37.813 --> 00:21:40.533
I pay particular attention to where my feet are.

00:21:40.753 --> 00:21:43.573
You might know where this one's going if you remember this at the time.

00:21:43.953 --> 00:21:47.653
Larry Craig, a U.S. senator from Idaho who had a long voting record that was

00:21:47.653 --> 00:21:49.733
opposing LGBTQ plus rights.

00:21:49.933 --> 00:21:53.533
He voted against adding sexual orientation to hate crime protection.

00:21:53.753 --> 00:21:55.433
He opposed same-sex marriage, and

00:21:55.433 --> 00:21:58.213
he consistently positioned himself as a defender of traditional values.

00:21:58.633 --> 00:22:02.913
Now, in 2007, he was arrested in a Minneapolis airport bathroom in a sting operation

00:22:02.913 --> 00:22:05.313
targeting men seeking sexual encounters with other men.

00:22:05.753 --> 00:22:09.193
Apparently, they would slide a foot over and if they touched feet, I guess that was code.

00:22:09.913 --> 00:22:14.113
He pled guilty to disorderly conduct, but he later tried to withdraw the plea

00:22:14.113 --> 00:22:16.753
and he famously declared, I'm not gay. I've never been gay.

00:22:17.073 --> 00:22:22.273
And I'm just bringing those two things to light because I remember them well at the time.

00:22:23.114 --> 00:22:25.774
Especially dealing with people that were struggling with their gender.

00:22:26.354 --> 00:22:27.554
So I want to be really clear here.

00:22:27.694 --> 00:22:30.754
These aren't just stories about hypocrisy, although there is definitely that element,

00:22:30.934 --> 00:22:34.394
but from a psychological perspective, and especially from my perspective of

00:22:34.394 --> 00:22:37.554
having spent hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of hours with men struggling

00:22:37.554 --> 00:22:42.374
with the exact same internal conflict, what we're witnessing is projection at

00:22:42.374 --> 00:22:43.954
its most desperate and tragic.

00:22:44.194 --> 00:22:48.554
This is what happens when somebody's shadow becomes so threatening that they

00:22:48.554 --> 00:22:54.334
can't even imagine integrating it. So they project it outward and then they declare war on it.

00:22:55.234 --> 00:22:58.814
If I think about the clients that I work with, so many of them have spent years,

00:22:58.994 --> 00:23:03.414
sometimes decades, trying to pray away, perfect away, marry away something that

00:23:03.414 --> 00:23:04.374
was core to who they were.

00:23:04.834 --> 00:23:08.114
The internal conflict was excruciating. The shame was crushing.

00:23:08.254 --> 00:23:11.254
The feeling of being fundamentally broken, fundamentally wrong.

00:23:12.014 --> 00:23:17.534
Fundamentally unacceptable was unbearable, even to the point where some would take their own lives.

00:23:17.654 --> 00:23:19.894
And that's never okay.

00:23:20.114 --> 00:23:24.194
It's not okay for somebody to project onto someone else that you need to be a different way.

00:23:24.614 --> 00:23:26.974
There's even a remote chance it can lead to something like that.

00:23:27.694 --> 00:23:30.314
When something is that unbearable to acknowledge in ourselves,

00:23:30.314 --> 00:23:34.994
it's so tragic that that person feels this need to project it outward and attack

00:23:34.994 --> 00:23:36.974
it and attack anybody who embodies it.

00:23:37.594 --> 00:23:41.694
So these individuals like Haggard and Craig and countless others in similar

00:23:41.694 --> 00:23:43.074
situations were so unable to

00:23:43.074 --> 00:23:46.214
integrate this part of their shadow that they waged these external wars.

00:23:46.414 --> 00:23:49.054
They protested too much because they were trying to convince themselves as much

00:23:49.054 --> 00:23:52.114
as anybody else, even to the point where they were okay,

00:23:52.554 --> 00:23:58.974
and maybe they weren't okay with, but they were willing to see something happen

00:23:58.974 --> 00:24:04.134
that was ultimately detrimental to someone's life who embodied this thing that

00:24:04.134 --> 00:24:05.594
they could not acknowledge in themselves,

00:24:05.654 --> 00:24:10.654
that they found it psychologically safer to crusade against those people than

00:24:10.654 --> 00:24:12.774
to acknowledge, I might be one of those people.

00:24:13.294 --> 00:24:17.834
It is so much easier to make it about other people's sin than to sit with your

00:24:17.834 --> 00:24:18.754
own internal experience.

00:24:19.074 --> 00:24:22.754
It's easier to judge and condemn from a distance than to look in the mirror

00:24:22.754 --> 00:24:25.134
and actually offer yourself compassion.

00:24:26.166 --> 00:24:29.806
When we cannot integrate a part of ourselves, when we find it too threatening

00:24:29.806 --> 00:24:34.886
or too shameful or too contradictory to our identity, we project it outward and we attack it there.

00:24:35.146 --> 00:24:38.126
The louder the protest, the more desperate the crusade, the more likely it is

00:24:38.126 --> 00:24:41.086
that we're fighting something within ourselves that we can't yet face.

00:24:41.446 --> 00:24:44.686
And what is so tragic about that, all that energy,

00:24:44.906 --> 00:24:47.906
all those emotional calories spent on external warfare, all those years spent

00:24:47.906 --> 00:24:52.106
crusading against something could have been spent on the actually much more difficult,

00:24:52.146 --> 00:24:56.246
but much more courageous work of acceptance and integration of bringing the

00:24:56.246 --> 00:24:59.066
shadow into the light of acknowledging this is part of who I am and it's okay.

00:24:59.206 --> 00:25:00.646
And it turns out it really is.

00:25:01.266 --> 00:25:04.146
I think about my clients from 20 years ago, the ones who eventually came to

00:25:04.146 --> 00:25:07.006
a place of self-acceptance, who stopped trying to change something unchangeable

00:25:07.006 --> 00:25:11.186
about themselves, who integrated their shadow rather than projecting it onto everybody around them.

00:25:11.506 --> 00:25:16.506
Those were the ones who found peace, not easy peace, not uncomplicated peace,

00:25:16.706 --> 00:25:20.966
but genuine, internal, real, everything's going to be okay. Peace.

00:25:21.626 --> 00:25:26.126
The ones who stayed stuck in this cycle of shame and projection, they suffered.

00:25:26.466 --> 00:25:29.446
And unfortunately, they often made others suffer too.

00:25:29.626 --> 00:25:32.466
Let me share a story from my practice that I think shows how projection works

00:25:32.466 --> 00:25:36.986
in more everyday situations. And this is something that I've seen this version of this.

00:25:37.590 --> 00:25:41.910
Several times. I was working with a couple and they had gotten into a significant

00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:45.590
fight right before the wife had to leave for a work conference that was in a faraway state.

00:25:46.210 --> 00:25:49.610
She was hurting from the argument and she felt like her husband had primarily

00:25:49.610 --> 00:25:52.730
been at fault. He'd been dismissive. He shut down the conversation.

00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:54.170
He really refused to engage.

00:25:54.590 --> 00:25:56.990
But true to her pattern, she found herself wanting to reach out,

00:25:57.130 --> 00:25:59.750
wanting to fix it, wanting to be the one that says, hey, I'm sorry,

00:26:00.090 --> 00:26:01.130
wanting to make sure he was okay.

00:26:01.530 --> 00:26:04.850
But this time she was trying to be more differentiated, more grounded,

00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:05.690
trying something different.

00:26:05.910 --> 00:26:09.590
And she'd been working in therapy on not always being the one to do the repair,

00:26:09.770 --> 00:26:12.990
to go rescue, especially when she didn't feel like she was the one that had

00:26:12.990 --> 00:26:14.890
caused the lion share of the damage.

00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:18.950
So she told herself, if he wasn't willing to have this uncomfortable conversation

00:26:18.950 --> 00:26:21.590
before I left, then I'm not going to be the one to reach out.

00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:22.910
I'm going to hold this boundary.

00:26:23.310 --> 00:26:25.710
So they don't talk while she's gone pretty much the whole trip.

00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:29.330
And she was miserable. Conferences were already pretty exhausting.

00:26:29.550 --> 00:26:32.210
She was walking around with this weight on her shoulders, checking her phone

00:26:32.210 --> 00:26:34.170
to see, has he reached out? And he didn't.

00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:37.690
So when she got home, she was emotionally drained. She was still hurt,

00:26:37.790 --> 00:26:39.690
but also hoping that maybe they could finally talk.

00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:43.630
And one of the first things that he asked her is he said, hey,

00:26:43.710 --> 00:26:44.950
did you hook up with any guys on the trip?

00:26:45.610 --> 00:26:49.110
She was blown away. She said that thought had not even entered her peripheral

00:26:49.110 --> 00:26:52.430
consciousness. She felt very misunderstood, unseen.

00:26:53.230 --> 00:26:56.830
She had spent the entire trip thinking about him, about their marriage,

00:26:56.970 --> 00:26:59.230
about whether they were going to be okay, would they make it through this.

00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:06.450
She felt so bad about not rescuing. The idea of being with somebody else was never a thought.

00:27:06.630 --> 00:27:09.950
And she said, especially with how emotionally raw I was, she said it was so

00:27:09.950 --> 00:27:14.010
far from her reality that the question felt like it came from a completely different planet.

00:27:14.910 --> 00:27:17.850
But if we kind of look at what's fascinating from a projection standpoint,

00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:21.930
when she asked him why he would even ask that, he got really defensive and said,

00:27:22.010 --> 00:27:24.290
well, I mean, you weren't talking to me. You were gone for three days.

00:27:24.510 --> 00:27:25.530
How was I supposed to know what you were doing?

00:27:26.292 --> 00:27:28.932
So I might just bring gentle awareness to another possibility.

00:27:29.132 --> 00:27:32.332
And this is what we then explored in therapy. Was he telling on himself?

00:27:32.972 --> 00:27:36.112
Because you see, projection doesn't always mean we've even done the thing that

00:27:36.112 --> 00:27:39.312
we're accusing somebody else of. Sometimes it just means we've thought about doing it.

00:27:39.492 --> 00:27:42.252
So when he was angry about the marriage, when he was sitting at home feeling

00:27:42.252 --> 00:27:44.712
abandoned and hurt, did his mind go to, you know what?

00:27:45.092 --> 00:27:48.192
Screw it. I'm just going to go hook up with some random person.

00:27:48.492 --> 00:27:51.292
Or did he find himself having fantasies or intrusive thoughts about escaping

00:27:51.292 --> 00:27:54.852
the pain of the relationship through some kind of sexual distraction?

00:27:54.852 --> 00:27:58.512
And then because those thoughts felt threatening or shameful because they contradicted

00:27:58.512 --> 00:28:02.612
his image of himself as this devoted husband, as the person that is always there

00:28:02.612 --> 00:28:06.152
for her, maybe except for when he's not, he projected him onto her.

00:28:06.592 --> 00:28:09.792
Because again, it's psychologically easier to accuse your partner of thinking

00:28:09.792 --> 00:28:12.832
about infidelity than to acknowledge that maybe you were thinking about it.

00:28:12.932 --> 00:28:13.952
This is a defense mechanism.

00:28:14.072 --> 00:28:17.372
His brain is essentially saying, these thoughts are too uncomfortable for me

00:28:17.372 --> 00:28:19.712
to own, so I'm going to attribute them to her instead.

00:28:19.972 --> 00:28:24.552
Then I can actually be righteously angry rather than sitting with my own shame or my own confusion.

00:28:24.852 --> 00:28:29.592
And the painful part is his projection actually created a new wound because

00:28:29.592 --> 00:28:31.992
she comes home from that trip already hurt from the original argument.

00:28:32.112 --> 00:28:35.532
She's already exhausted from holding this boundary that felt terrible to hold.

00:28:35.872 --> 00:28:39.212
And now she's being accused of something that didn't even cross her mind.

00:28:39.572 --> 00:28:41.892
So the projection kind of added insult to injury.

00:28:42.312 --> 00:28:45.492
When we worked through this in therapy, when he was able to acknowledge that

00:28:45.492 --> 00:28:48.452
maybe the question came from his own insecurities, immaturity,

00:28:48.672 --> 00:28:50.532
his thoughts rather than anything that she'd actually done.

00:28:50.672 --> 00:28:53.772
It was a pretty profound moment of recognition. It was uncomfortable,

00:28:53.772 --> 00:28:56.912
but it was honest and really vulnerable.

00:28:57.152 --> 00:28:59.832
She could see that his accusation wasn't really about her at all.

00:28:59.972 --> 00:29:03.152
Here's another example that I think really illustrates how projection can show

00:29:03.152 --> 00:29:05.072
up before we're even consciously aware of it.

00:29:05.172 --> 00:29:07.872
And I think this one was so interesting because I look back on this.

00:29:08.072 --> 00:29:12.552
And I said the words projection. I made those mouth sounds, but I can look back

00:29:12.552 --> 00:29:17.412
on this now and understand that, man, it really was, there was so much projection happening.

00:29:17.552 --> 00:29:20.552
I worked with this couple and the husband had grown up with an alcoholic father

00:29:20.552 --> 00:29:21.592
and he was really abusive.

00:29:22.268 --> 00:29:26.948
He was a destructive alcoholic. So this guy's childhood was marked by violence,

00:29:27.108 --> 00:29:28.708
unpredictability, financial chaos.

00:29:29.008 --> 00:29:31.128
All of it was connected to his dad's drinking.

00:29:31.568 --> 00:29:36.028
So he grew up with this absolute conviction that alcohol was, it was poison.

00:29:36.188 --> 00:29:39.268
It was something that he will never do. People who drank were weak,

00:29:39.348 --> 00:29:40.228
that he would never touch it.

00:29:40.648 --> 00:29:44.028
And for decades, he didn't. And he was very proud of himself for it.

00:29:44.348 --> 00:29:45.488
It was part of his identity.

00:29:45.808 --> 00:29:50.648
But he was grounded. He didn't seem to overtly judge or mock others.

00:29:50.648 --> 00:29:55.208
But internally, he said, that is not me. I'm not like my father. I don't drink.

00:29:55.868 --> 00:29:59.248
So his wife, she just came for a check-in. It took a couple of sessions to get

00:29:59.248 --> 00:30:03.208
there, but then she said she noticed something strange happening over the past year or so.

00:30:04.093 --> 00:30:08.233
Her husband had started talking about alcohol a lot, but not in a,

00:30:08.353 --> 00:30:11.373
I'm struggling with this kind of way, but it was in this, almost,

00:30:11.433 --> 00:30:13.593
she said, a judgmental kind of obsessive way.

00:30:13.833 --> 00:30:17.073
It started small. They watched a TV show and he'd say something like,

00:30:17.213 --> 00:30:19.073
can you believe how much people drink?

00:30:19.313 --> 00:30:22.013
Like, why do people feel the need to have alcohol, to have fun?

00:30:22.533 --> 00:30:25.473
Or they'd be at a restaurant and he would comment on how expensive the wine

00:30:25.473 --> 00:30:28.253
list was, where he'd never really looked at that before with this tone of just

00:30:28.253 --> 00:30:30.173
this disbelief or this disdain.

00:30:30.713 --> 00:30:34.693
Then it escalated. He started seeking out opportunities to comment on other people's drinking.

00:30:34.853 --> 00:30:37.833
They'd be out on a date, and he would notice somebody across the room who appeared

00:30:37.833 --> 00:30:40.773
to be a little bit tipsy. And then he would fixate on them, and he would make

00:30:40.773 --> 00:30:42.313
comments through the entire meal.

00:30:42.633 --> 00:30:45.193
Look at that guy. I mean, he can barely stand up. Can you believe?

00:30:45.353 --> 00:30:47.833
What would that be like to be his wife, to have to drag him home?

00:30:48.093 --> 00:30:51.093
How does somebody even let themselves get like that? It's just so pathetic.

00:30:51.313 --> 00:30:53.173
His family, they must be so embarrassed.

00:30:53.553 --> 00:30:57.633
And his wife described it as this uncomfortable intensity.

00:30:58.073 --> 00:31:00.493
Like he couldn't look away. He couldn't stop talking about it.

00:31:00.493 --> 00:31:04.873
And this was coming from a guy who, until recently, barely mentioned alcohol at all.

00:31:05.013 --> 00:31:08.933
It just wasn't on his radar because he had dealt with it by avoiding it.

00:31:09.453 --> 00:31:11.973
So she initially thought maybe he was triggered by something.

00:31:12.073 --> 00:31:14.093
Maybe he had heard from his dad because they had been estranged.

00:31:14.253 --> 00:31:17.333
Maybe something had reminded him about his childhood, but something about it felt off to her.

00:31:17.573 --> 00:31:22.913
It felt less like a trauma response and more like she just couldn't put a name on it.

00:31:23.633 --> 00:31:26.813
And then she found a stash. She was looking for something in the garage.

00:31:26.813 --> 00:31:31.833
She found a box hidden behind some camping equipment and inside were a lot of

00:31:31.833 --> 00:31:35.013
empty bottles and a half full bottle of whiskey.

00:31:36.033 --> 00:31:39.413
When she confronted him, he broke down. He had been drinking for almost a year.

00:31:39.593 --> 00:31:42.013
He'd been sneaking drinks in the garage, stopping at bars on the way home,

00:31:42.173 --> 00:31:45.713
having a couple of beers before going home from work, buying airplane bottles

00:31:45.713 --> 00:31:48.033
of liquor and drinking them in his car and parking lots.

00:31:48.593 --> 00:31:53.493
And what is so textbook about this form of projection, his obsessive commentary

00:31:53.493 --> 00:31:58.893
about other people's drinking was pathologically his way of managing his own

00:31:58.893 --> 00:32:02.473
relationship with alcohol before he was ready to consciously acknowledge it.

00:32:02.613 --> 00:32:04.973
Because if you think about it, he couldn't say to himself, hey,

00:32:05.053 --> 00:32:07.133
I started drinking. I don't even know how to feel about that.

00:32:07.253 --> 00:32:11.073
I have no idea what happened because that would have shattered his entire identity

00:32:11.073 --> 00:32:13.133
because he'd built his self-image,

00:32:13.373 --> 00:32:17.093
his sense of self on not being like his dad, on being above it,

00:32:17.213 --> 00:32:20.333
on having conquered this demon by just simply refusing to engage with it.

00:32:20.433 --> 00:32:22.453
But something had shifted and maybe it was stress.

00:32:22.593 --> 00:32:24.673
Maybe it was unresolved trauma that was finally catching up with him.

00:32:24.813 --> 00:32:29.593
Maybe it was just curiosity, but he'd started drinking and his psyche couldn't

00:32:29.593 --> 00:32:31.133
integrate it. It was just too threatening.

00:32:31.373 --> 00:32:34.953
So instead, his unconscious mind found another way to process it.

00:32:34.953 --> 00:32:37.753
He projected these internal struggles onto everybody around him.

00:32:38.373 --> 00:32:43.573
So when he fixated on the drunk guy at the restaurant, he wasn't really seeing that guy.

00:32:43.733 --> 00:32:47.013
He was seeing himself or his fear of what he might become.

00:32:47.173 --> 00:32:50.133
So when he ranted about how pathetic people who drink are, he was trying to

00:32:50.133 --> 00:32:54.633
convince himself that he, but he wasn't one of them, even though he was actively drinking in secret.

00:32:55.433 --> 00:33:00.253
The excessive judgment, the protesting too much, there's your defense mechanism.

00:33:00.553 --> 00:33:03.913
It was his psyche's way of saying, see how much I hate drinking?

00:33:04.073 --> 00:33:06.593
See how much I judge people? a drink that proves I'm not like them, right?

00:33:07.478 --> 00:33:11.158
But of course, it didn't prove it at all because it actually revealed the opposite.

00:33:11.378 --> 00:33:15.418
The intensity of his focus, the obsessive quality of it, the way he couldn't

00:33:15.418 --> 00:33:19.858
seem to let it go, those were signs that the alcohol had become psychologically

00:33:19.858 --> 00:33:23.978
central for him, even though he wasn't consciously acknowledging his own use.

00:33:24.398 --> 00:33:28.578
This is projection functioning as a kind of psychological pressure release valve.

00:33:28.898 --> 00:33:34.358
He couldn't contain the tension of, I'm drinking, but I built my entire identity on not.

00:33:34.518 --> 00:33:38.358
So that tension leaked out sideways. It came out as judgment on others.

00:33:38.578 --> 00:33:42.118
It came out as hypervigilance about other people's behavior and this compulsive

00:33:42.118 --> 00:33:47.258
need to distance himself from those people, even as he was becoming one of those people.

00:33:47.498 --> 00:33:52.158
And what was so heartbreaking about it is that if he had been able to acknowledge

00:33:52.158 --> 00:33:56.498
his drinking earlier, if he had been able to say or have the courage to say,

00:33:56.658 --> 00:33:59.818
hey, this is crazy, I'm struggling with this thing that I swore I would never

00:33:59.818 --> 00:34:01.918
do, he could have gotten help.

00:34:02.478 --> 00:34:04.698
He could have talked to his wife. He could have gone to therapy,

00:34:04.918 --> 00:34:06.918
dealt with whatever was driving him to drink in the first place,

00:34:06.918 --> 00:34:11.638
but the projection kept him stuck and it kept him focused outward instead of looking inward.

00:34:11.838 --> 00:34:15.958
It created this painful paradox, this irony where the very thing he was most

00:34:15.958 --> 00:34:18.338
vocal about opposing was the thing he was secretly doing.

00:34:18.498 --> 00:34:20.858
When we eventually worked through this in therapy, he had to address,

00:34:20.978 --> 00:34:21.938
there were a lot of layers.

00:34:22.138 --> 00:34:25.198
His relationship with alcohol, his unresolved trauma from his childhood,

00:34:25.338 --> 00:34:26.618
his shame about becoming his dad,

00:34:26.738 --> 00:34:30.078
his use of projection as a defense mechanism, and it was a lot of work.

00:34:30.078 --> 00:34:32.678
But one of the breakthroughs came when he could finally see the pattern,

00:34:32.778 --> 00:34:36.178
that when he could recognize that his obsessive judgment of other drinkers was

00:34:36.178 --> 00:34:39.618
a mirror showing him something he wasn't ready to see about himself.

00:34:40.278 --> 00:34:43.798
The lady, or in this case, the gentleman, doth protest too much.

00:34:44.158 --> 00:34:48.078
And his protest was telling us exactly what he was trying so hard to deny.

00:34:48.678 --> 00:34:53.898
So these examples from public figures crusading against LGBTQ plus rights while

00:34:53.898 --> 00:34:56.918
secretly struggling with their own sexuality to the wife being accused of infidelity

00:34:56.918 --> 00:34:58.298
that she never considered to

00:34:58.298 --> 00:35:00.878
the husband fixating on other people drinking while he's hiding his own.

00:35:01.038 --> 00:35:04.498
They all show us the same psychological mechanism at work.

00:35:05.345 --> 00:35:08.465
Projection is how we manage internal conflicts that we're not ready to face.

00:35:08.605 --> 00:35:12.225
It's how we externalize things that we can't internalize, that it's too painful.

00:35:12.445 --> 00:35:15.725
And the more intense the projection, the louder the protest,

00:35:15.905 --> 00:35:19.185
the more it often reveals about what's happening beneath the surface.

00:35:19.185 --> 00:35:23.425
So when you find yourself having an unusually strong reaction to something,

00:35:23.665 --> 00:35:27.425
when you can't seem to let something go, when you are protesting loudly and

00:35:27.425 --> 00:35:30.165
frequently about somebody else's behavior, it's worth asking,

00:35:30.365 --> 00:35:33.165
what am I not ready to look at directly?

00:35:33.565 --> 00:35:36.425
Because that awareness, that willingness to turn the mirror around,

00:35:36.605 --> 00:35:38.305
that's where the growth starts to happen.

00:35:38.505 --> 00:35:41.605
That's where we stop being ruled by our projections and we can start being honest,

00:35:41.745 --> 00:35:43.705
at least to ourselves, about our own struggles.

00:35:43.805 --> 00:35:47.525
And that honesty, that is the beginning of freedom. Hey, everybody.

00:35:47.685 --> 00:35:51.425
I am back from my halftime break. I don't know why podcasts can't have a halftime.

00:35:51.565 --> 00:35:56.145
If you are watching this on YouTube, then I wanted to just bring gentle awareness

00:35:56.145 --> 00:36:00.105
that now I am donning a virtual couch zip-up hoodie.

00:36:00.345 --> 00:36:04.465
And I only bring that up because I had shared an episode with a friend a long time ago.

00:36:04.605 --> 00:36:08.245
And he said, you know, it was a little distracting that you basically had a

00:36:08.245 --> 00:36:10.645
wardrobe change two or three times throughout the episode.

00:36:10.645 --> 00:36:14.505
And that was very true because it was an episode that I had done part of it

00:36:14.505 --> 00:36:18.185
from my office in Arizona, part on day one of being in California,

00:36:18.425 --> 00:36:21.665
finished it up on day two of California and had a different,

00:36:21.665 --> 00:36:23.105
a different shirt each day.

00:36:23.705 --> 00:36:26.865
But coming back from the halftime break, another plug for mindfulness,

00:36:26.865 --> 00:36:32.085
because as I started recording this, I just, thank goodness,

00:36:32.205 --> 00:36:36.005
happened to look over and see on my, my mixing board.

00:36:36.005 --> 00:36:38.745
There's one button that needs to be pressed.

00:36:38.825 --> 00:36:42.965
And when it is not pressed, I record no sound and I have.

00:36:43.596 --> 00:36:47.376
Probably done two or three episodes, full episodes. One of them was well over an hour.

00:36:47.556 --> 00:36:52.316
And then when I went to, to put it in my editing software, it had no sound.

00:36:52.676 --> 00:36:55.776
And that is such a mindfulness practice to notice.

00:36:56.056 --> 00:37:02.156
I'm noticing that I would have liked the sound to have been on and also noticing

00:37:02.156 --> 00:37:05.816
that I don't want to rerecord the episode. Also using some magical thinking.

00:37:06.096 --> 00:37:09.456
Does the universe or God himself not want this episode to air,

00:37:09.656 --> 00:37:11.556
which I don't think I'm that special.

00:37:11.716 --> 00:37:15.256
So I have each and every time gone back and like I just did,

00:37:15.356 --> 00:37:18.096
I think I did about five minutes, noticed that the light is on.

00:37:18.236 --> 00:37:21.216
Now I've looked over two or three times and I don't, I know I don't have OCD,

00:37:21.576 --> 00:37:23.976
but boy, that checking thing can be a real thing.

00:37:24.636 --> 00:37:30.556
But here we are, we are back to now what I am viewing as part two of the projection

00:37:30.556 --> 00:37:33.596
episode, but for you, probably no break in the action.

00:37:34.216 --> 00:37:37.236
But let me give you some rapid fire examples of what projection looks like in

00:37:37.236 --> 00:37:41.176
everyday relationships, because I really, I think getting some reps in will

00:37:41.176 --> 00:37:43.396
help just solidify what projection is.

00:37:43.696 --> 00:37:48.056
So see if any of these sound familiar. So example one, your partner forgets

00:37:48.056 --> 00:37:50.896
to text you during the day and you immediately think, oh, they're pulling away from me.

00:37:51.016 --> 00:37:53.616
They don't care anymore, but here's the projection.

00:37:54.096 --> 00:37:57.976
You never forget to text when you care about somebody. So you're projecting

00:37:57.976 --> 00:37:59.356
that standard onto your partner.

00:37:59.796 --> 00:38:03.836
So that means to you that if they aren't texting you, then that must mean that they don't care.

00:38:03.956 --> 00:38:07.616
But the reality might be that they were in back-to-back meetings or quite frankly,

00:38:07.756 --> 00:38:10.356
their brain just doesn't work the same way yours does around communication.

00:38:10.556 --> 00:38:13.376
And this has been one that has been very real in my own relationship where I

00:38:13.376 --> 00:38:15.716
will send a text out every day. Hey, thinking about you.

00:38:15.836 --> 00:38:19.456
And I have done the thing where I've been needy and clingy and nice guy syndrome-y

00:38:19.456 --> 00:38:23.236
and sending these covert contracts to my wife on occasion that,

00:38:23.236 --> 00:38:25.916
uh, Hey, it would be nice to get a little, little text during the day.

00:38:26.176 --> 00:38:29.556
That's very clingy, very needy energy. Would it be nice? Absolutely.

00:38:29.956 --> 00:38:34.136
But I now understand that that is not her being not even passive aggressive,

00:38:34.136 --> 00:38:36.576
but aggressively saying, oh, that's what you want.

00:38:36.756 --> 00:38:39.756
Well, it's off the table then. But I know that I am.

00:38:40.481 --> 00:38:42.841
Like checking in, saying, Hey, thinking about you. I hope you're having a good

00:38:42.841 --> 00:38:44.101
day. What's everything like?

00:38:44.781 --> 00:38:49.541
And that is, that is me. And one time when I was talking to my wife about this

00:38:49.541 --> 00:38:51.721
concept, she said, Oh, I don't want to bother you.

00:38:51.921 --> 00:38:54.701
And I'm saying, Oh, bother away. That would be great.

00:38:55.121 --> 00:39:02.401
So we're both projecting onto the end of the relationship. What we think is, I guess the right way.

00:39:03.201 --> 00:39:06.861
Example two, your partner suggests ordering takeout instead of cooking and you

00:39:06.861 --> 00:39:10.761
feel criticize, like they're saying, you're not doing enough around the house, the projection.

00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:15.459
You might suggest ordering out when you're frustrated that somebody isn't pulling

00:39:15.459 --> 00:39:17.219
their weight. So you assume that that's what they're doing.

00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:22.379
They might just be tired and craving Thai to go or Thai chili to go.

00:39:22.759 --> 00:39:25.479
Not an advertiser, but that would be fine.

00:39:25.859 --> 00:39:28.299
There's one near my house here in Arizona.

00:39:28.779 --> 00:39:31.399
Reach out, please. Yellow chicken curry. Holy cow.

00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:35.279
Example three, your partner is quiet on the drive home and you are convinced

00:39:35.279 --> 00:39:36.139
that they're angry with you.

00:39:36.399 --> 00:39:40.039
So you start reviewing all the game tape, everything you did that day,

00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:41.819
trying to figure out what you did wrong.

00:39:41.919 --> 00:39:44.639
Hey, is that okay? Did I do something wrong? The projection.

00:39:45.359 --> 00:39:49.139
When you're quiet, it's often because you're upset and you don't want to say

00:39:49.139 --> 00:39:51.119
anything and you want your partner to know that I'm upset.

00:39:51.659 --> 00:39:55.119
But your partner might just be mentally exhausted, decompressing.

00:39:55.319 --> 00:39:57.219
They might just not be thinking about a whole lot right now.

00:39:57.759 --> 00:40:00.779
They might be thinking about something that is completely unrelated to you.

00:40:01.459 --> 00:40:04.419
For example, number four, your partner doesn't laugh at your joke.

00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.139
I know this one well, and you think they think I'm dumb. They don't like my

00:40:08.139 --> 00:40:09.399
humor. They don't respect me.

00:40:09.619 --> 00:40:13.339
The projection, maybe you judge people's intelligence by their sense of humor.

00:40:13.479 --> 00:40:17.159
So you assume that they are not laughing. So therefore they think that you are

00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:19.619
not very smart, but they could have been distracted.

00:40:19.819 --> 00:40:22.619
Maybe they didn't hear the punchline. Maybe your humor styles are different,

00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:25.039
or you have been in this relationship long enough.

00:40:25.319 --> 00:40:27.479
Google repetitive acoustic stimuli.

00:40:27.899 --> 00:40:32.819
You are somewhat just a form of a white noise machine when you speak.

00:40:33.259 --> 00:40:36.959
Or example five, your partner spends money on something for themselves and man,

00:40:37.099 --> 00:40:39.839
you are just hurt. This one has come up often in therapy.

00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:43.059
It's like they're being selfish. They're not thinking about the family,

00:40:43.259 --> 00:40:47.319
the projection, because when you spend money on yourself, you feel guilty,

00:40:47.319 --> 00:40:48.779
like you are being selfish.

00:40:48.899 --> 00:40:52.419
So you project that guilt onto them and interpret their purchase as darn near

00:40:52.419 --> 00:40:56.259
a hostile act, but they might just be practicing some healthy self-care and

00:40:56.259 --> 00:40:58.179
they don't care the same guilt narrative that you do.

00:40:58.739 --> 00:41:01.939
So hopefully you see the pattern in each one of these examples,

00:41:02.259 --> 00:41:05.539
we're taking our own internal rulebook and we're assuming everybody else is

00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:06.739
playing by the same rules.

00:41:07.668 --> 00:41:11.028
I know I have mentioned this in other podcasts, but I think you'll see why.

00:41:11.588 --> 00:41:15.048
There's a famous commencement speech by David Foster Wallace called This Is Water.

00:41:15.728 --> 00:41:18.428
And first introduced to me by my good friend, Rob.

00:41:18.668 --> 00:41:24.228
And it's just so powerful. If you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend you hit pause.

00:41:24.268 --> 00:41:27.588
I will put a link in the show notes. Go find it and listen to it.

00:41:28.208 --> 00:41:32.128
But it starts with a simple story. Two young fish are swimming along and they

00:41:32.128 --> 00:41:33.668
meet an older fish swimming the other way.

00:41:33.828 --> 00:41:36.648
And he just nods at them in passing. Morning, boys. How's the water?

00:41:37.408 --> 00:41:41.668
And the young fish swim on. And eventually one looks at the other and he says, what the heck is water?

00:41:42.128 --> 00:41:45.508
Now, I love this story. And honestly, at first I really didn't understand it,

00:41:45.588 --> 00:41:51.828
but it's because it perfectly captures what happens in therapy or life or what

00:41:51.828 --> 00:41:52.888
we're talking about with projection.

00:41:53.088 --> 00:41:56.408
So many of us are swimming through life completely unaware of the water,

00:41:56.568 --> 00:42:00.388
which is, I think, those default settings, those automatic thoughts and those

00:42:00.388 --> 00:42:03.688
reactions that we don't even question because they are so familiar to us.

00:42:03.688 --> 00:42:07.668
So we are like those young fish and we're not even realizing that we're swimming

00:42:07.668 --> 00:42:12.228
in our own interpretations rather than experiencing an objective reality,

00:42:12.448 --> 00:42:14.948
a right, a truth, a right versus a wrong.

00:42:15.608 --> 00:42:19.028
So Wallace goes on to say in that speech, the most obvious important realities

00:42:19.028 --> 00:42:22.108
are often the ones that are the hardest to see and to talk about.

00:42:22.868 --> 00:42:27.768
And I think this is precisely what I mean when I try to sell my clients on it.

00:42:27.948 --> 00:42:29.568
It's okay. You don't know what you don't know.

00:42:29.768 --> 00:42:33.208
It's not your fault that you don't notice the water. None of us do without help.

00:42:33.788 --> 00:42:36.948
It goes back to how often people say, I should not have done this.

00:42:37.068 --> 00:42:37.848
I should have known better.

00:42:38.428 --> 00:42:41.288
Again, nobody likes to be should on, but even more important,

00:42:41.468 --> 00:42:45.248
you didn't know. It just was. You were in the water. You weren't aware of the water.

00:42:45.528 --> 00:42:47.988
That happened. Stop beating yourself up about the past.

00:42:48.368 --> 00:42:51.828
That is a waste of emotional calories. Now, being aware of what happened in

00:42:51.828 --> 00:42:53.908
the past, learning how to accept the things that happened in the past.

00:42:54.228 --> 00:42:57.468
How can I learn from the things of the past? Absolutely wonderful.

00:42:58.088 --> 00:43:00.468
And that is helping you move forward.

00:43:01.188 --> 00:43:05.448
Ruminating, beating yourself up and saying, how could I not have known about the water?

00:43:06.444 --> 00:43:09.784
It is not helpful. Here's the reason why. Because you didn't.

00:43:10.084 --> 00:43:13.284
Now you do. So check that out. That's amazing. It's wonderful.

00:43:13.944 --> 00:43:17.284
And I think here's what Wallace is getting at in his speech and why it ties

00:43:17.284 --> 00:43:20.524
so perfectly into projection that we have these default settings,

00:43:20.684 --> 00:43:23.504
these unconscious ways of interpreting the world around us. How could we not?

00:43:23.664 --> 00:43:26.024
It is our experience, our default setting.

00:43:26.764 --> 00:43:30.304
And Wallace says that is talking about default settings.

00:43:30.864 --> 00:43:35.204
Our default setting is to be deeply self-centered, not in some narcissistic

00:43:35.204 --> 00:43:36.984
malicious way, but in the sense

00:43:36.984 --> 00:43:40.244
that we are the absolute center of our own experience, our own universe.

00:43:40.684 --> 00:43:43.944
Everything we perceive comes through the filter of our own needs,

00:43:44.184 --> 00:43:45.844
fears, desires, and interpretations.

00:43:46.964 --> 00:43:50.364
Wallace gives an example of how Wallace talks about being stuck in traffic or

00:43:50.364 --> 00:43:53.404
waiting in a long line at the grocery store after maybe a frustrating day at work.

00:43:53.604 --> 00:43:59.924
Our default setting is to think, and maybe it's not think, but just be in this

00:43:59.924 --> 00:44:01.744
space of, this is about me.

00:44:01.924 --> 00:44:04.884
These people are in my way. Don't they understand what my day has been like?

00:44:05.164 --> 00:44:06.864
This is all happening to me.

00:44:07.284 --> 00:44:10.664
We automatically interpret the world through this lens of our own urgency,

00:44:10.884 --> 00:44:12.624
our own frustration, our own narrative.

00:44:12.944 --> 00:44:16.064
But here's what I would love to invite you to consider. What if the person driving

00:44:16.064 --> 00:44:18.564
slowly in front of you isn't just trying to ruin your day?

00:44:19.264 --> 00:44:21.744
What if they just got some pretty terrible news at the hospital?

00:44:21.824 --> 00:44:23.604
They're driving carefully because they are in shock.

00:44:24.204 --> 00:44:27.044
What if the woman who cut you off in the parking lot has a sick child at home

00:44:27.044 --> 00:44:28.264
and is desperate to get back.

00:44:28.604 --> 00:44:31.944
One of the person taking forever at the checkout counter is so lonely and I

00:44:31.944 --> 00:44:35.704
have talked to people like this that that small exchange with the cashier is

00:44:35.704 --> 00:44:40.164
the only human contact that they'll have today and they want to hang on to every single second of it.

00:44:40.604 --> 00:44:44.784
The point is that these alternative stories are definitely true.

00:44:45.024 --> 00:44:46.484
It's that we don't actually know.

00:44:47.084 --> 00:44:50.864
The point isn't that these alternative stories are definitely true.

00:44:51.344 --> 00:44:55.364
The point is that we don't actually know. We're making it up either way.

00:44:56.209 --> 00:44:59.509
When somebody now speeds by me, cuts me off in traffic, my favorite thing to

00:44:59.509 --> 00:45:02.669
say is, man, maybe that guy's having a baby.

00:45:03.329 --> 00:45:05.229
And I hope you can see the humor there.

00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:09.769
Because I don't know why that person had to go 100 and something miles on the

00:45:09.769 --> 00:45:12.649
freeway and cut me off and bob and weave in and out of traffic.

00:45:13.449 --> 00:45:17.009
Ever see the movie Speed? Keanu Reeves, Sondra Bullock back in the day?

00:45:17.629 --> 00:45:20.809
Maybe if his car goes below 100, he blows up. I don't know.

00:45:21.189 --> 00:45:24.209
Again, we're making it up either way. And our default setting is to make it

00:45:24.209 --> 00:45:30.549
up in a way that centers our own experience in a way that centers around our

00:45:30.549 --> 00:45:35.689
own experience and it often casts others as these obstacles or these antagonists in our story.

00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:39.269
This is projection in its most fundamental form. We're projecting our own sense

00:45:39.269 --> 00:45:43.289
of urgency, our own frustration, our own narrative onto everybody around us.

00:45:43.329 --> 00:45:47.529
We just do that. We're assuming they operate with the same awareness that we

00:45:47.529 --> 00:45:52.889
have or that we have of ourselves with the same awareness of us that we have

00:45:52.889 --> 00:45:54.869
of ourselves. They're not.

00:45:55.769 --> 00:45:58.189
They're actually the center of their own experience. They're swimming in their

00:45:58.189 --> 00:46:00.309
own water, completely unaware of ours.

00:46:00.889 --> 00:46:03.249
David Foster Wallace argues that the real value of education,

00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:06.709
and I would add the real value of therapy, the real value of personal growth,

00:46:06.809 --> 00:46:09.529
of interacting with other humans, isn't just learning facts.

00:46:09.529 --> 00:46:13.529
It's learning how to think, how to self-confront, how to step out of your own

00:46:13.529 --> 00:46:17.549
sense of self, how to learn how to be aware of your ego.

00:46:17.749 --> 00:46:20.429
You can keep your hand over here on the side of your ego and say,

00:46:20.569 --> 00:46:24.129
hey, down boy, but I want to really try to learn to connect with this person.

00:46:24.229 --> 00:46:28.549
And yeah, you're going to get defensive ego and say, wait, are they criticizing

00:46:28.549 --> 00:46:30.449
me? No, no, it's not all about you.

00:46:31.209 --> 00:46:35.489
It's learning how to think. We're becoming conscious of the water that we're swimming in, man.

00:46:35.609 --> 00:46:38.249
And I have wanted to throw a joke in here at some point. If we're both swimming

00:46:38.249 --> 00:46:41.589
in the same water, something about the bathroom, but.

00:46:42.580 --> 00:46:45.920
This is more about it's developing the awareness to step back and question our

00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.640
own automatic interpretations. And this is hard work.

00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:52.280
I love that Wallace is really honest about this. He says, learning to think

00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:55.900
in this way, to consciously choose how we interpret our experiences rather than

00:46:55.900 --> 00:47:02.240
just running on these default settings requires constant vigilance and effort.

00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:07.020
It's not something you do once and then you're done. It is a daily practice of awareness.

00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:11.260
So we've come to my favorite point of the podcast. What have we learned today?

00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:14.360
Let's bring it all together so today we've explored projection and

00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:17.280
it's this universal human tendency to attribute our own

00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.160
thoughts and our own feelings and motivations and behavior patterns to

00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:23.220
everybody else it shows up in everyday

00:47:23.220 --> 00:47:27.400
situations it is all around us whether we're interpreting a bag of garbage as

00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:33.980
a hostile message or a partner's dissatisfaction as deliberate cruelty and hopefully

00:47:33.980 --> 00:47:37.920
you've heard today that there are these extreme examples where people crusade

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.120
very loudly against the very things they're secretly struggling with themselves themselves.

00:47:41.850 --> 00:47:47.170
And how projection operates is both a defense mechanism and a little bit of a cognitive shortcut.

00:47:47.370 --> 00:47:51.270
Or basically our brain's way of trying to make sense of a complex world using

00:47:51.270 --> 00:47:58.210
the only data it has, our own internal experience.

00:47:58.630 --> 00:48:02.330
The key is that we are all swimming in water that we don't even know is water.

00:48:02.450 --> 00:48:05.750
We are all interpreting reality through our unique combination of nature,

00:48:05.810 --> 00:48:09.190
nurture, birth order, DNA, wounds, experiences, abandonment, hopes, fears, dreams.

00:48:09.190 --> 00:48:12.310
Whether or not we agree that a cat is

00:48:12.310 --> 00:48:14.970
narcissistic and most of the

00:48:14.970 --> 00:48:17.670
time we're actually completely unaware that we're doing it

00:48:17.670 --> 00:48:20.770
we think that we we're the one we see objective reality

00:48:20.770 --> 00:48:25.830
when we're actually seeing our own projections we're looking into a mirror here's

00:48:25.830 --> 00:48:30.050
the cool part though once you start to see the water you can't unsee it once

00:48:30.050 --> 00:48:33.390
you recognize projection in yourself you create space for something different

00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:38.230
you begin to create space for curiosity instead of certainty instead of criticism,

00:48:38.450 --> 00:48:41.550
instead of telling someone else what they must think or feel,

00:48:41.710 --> 00:48:43.010
because that is a me thing.

00:48:43.190 --> 00:48:46.430
I think they think this way. I think they feel this way kind of because that's

00:48:46.430 --> 00:48:47.670
how I feel or that's how I think.

00:48:48.070 --> 00:48:51.610
No, you're making space for curiosity. We're letting go of certainty.

00:48:52.030 --> 00:48:56.450
We want it. We would absolutely love to be mind readers, but you create space

00:48:56.450 --> 00:49:00.110
for actual connection instead of just reacting to your own interpretations.

00:49:00.650 --> 00:49:03.530
Often the person that you're interacting with, often the person you're interacting

00:49:03.530 --> 00:49:07.210
with doesn't even have to say anything because you're projecting all over them.

00:49:07.370 --> 00:49:08.750
Let me give you three specific takeaways.

00:49:09.010 --> 00:49:13.290
I was thinking about my good friend, Rachel Nielsen, host of the three and 30 podcast for moms.

00:49:13.550 --> 00:49:17.150
I was on her podcast so long ago. She was on mine. I think this was in episode

00:49:17.150 --> 00:49:20.150
20 or 30 and she has these three takeaways.

00:49:20.310 --> 00:49:22.010
And when I would go on her podcast, she would say, all right,

00:49:22.110 --> 00:49:23.170
do you have your three takeaways ready?

00:49:23.350 --> 00:49:26.750
And I would think, oh crap, I don't, I got to try to make up some right now.

00:49:26.870 --> 00:49:28.310
So I try to be intentional every now and again.

00:49:29.103 --> 00:49:33.063
But takeaway one, your strongest reactions are usually your very best teachers.

00:49:33.403 --> 00:49:37.063
If you have this intense emotional response to something that your partner does

00:49:37.063 --> 00:49:40.583
or somebody that you're interacting with does, especially if they seem genuinely

00:49:40.583 --> 00:49:44.443
confused by your reaction, that's potentially your projection.

00:49:44.483 --> 00:49:45.883
It's your alarm going off.

00:49:46.043 --> 00:49:49.523
That intensity is telling you something important about your own internal world.

00:49:49.683 --> 00:49:53.723
Why am I reacting this way to what you just said? That is a me thing.

00:49:54.223 --> 00:49:57.443
It might not even necessarily be about what's happening in the present moment.

00:49:57.443 --> 00:49:59.783
And it's your emotions, your feelings saying, hey, here I am.

00:49:59.903 --> 00:50:02.183
You usually ignore me. So I'm going to throw this at you right now.

00:50:02.783 --> 00:50:05.103
So the next time you have a strong reaction to your partner's behavior,

00:50:05.383 --> 00:50:09.783
give it a little pause before responding and ask yourself, what am I making this mean?

00:50:09.923 --> 00:50:12.123
What story am I telling myself about what's happening?

00:50:12.903 --> 00:50:15.123
Write it down if you need to. That helps get it out of your brain.

00:50:15.203 --> 00:50:17.843
Your brain has this negativity bias and it will spin and spin and spin.

00:50:18.363 --> 00:50:22.063
Just the act of naming your interpretation as an interpretation rather than

00:50:22.063 --> 00:50:25.543
an objective truth starts to put a little space, creates this psychological

00:50:25.543 --> 00:50:30.243
space. Number two, excessive judgment often reveals an internal struggle.

00:50:30.403 --> 00:50:33.163
If you find yourself obsessively focused on someone else's behavior,

00:50:33.163 --> 00:50:38.003
when you are protesting loudly about something, when you can't seem to let something

00:50:38.003 --> 00:50:40.443
go, I'm just saying it's worth examining.

00:50:40.603 --> 00:50:42.703
I'm not saying you're the alcoholic. I'm not saying that you're struggling with

00:50:42.703 --> 00:50:45.003
your sexuality. The lady does protest too much.

00:50:45.663 --> 00:50:50.263
What we judge most harshly in others often reflects something we haven't integrated in ourselves.

00:50:50.843 --> 00:50:54.123
So for the next week, pay attention to what triggers your judgment.

00:50:54.123 --> 00:50:57.183
When you catch yourself thinking or saying something harsh about another person's

00:50:57.183 --> 00:50:59.363
choices or their behavior, get curious.

00:50:59.443 --> 00:51:03.183
Instead of staying in judgment mode, ask yourself, why does this bother me so much?

00:51:03.343 --> 00:51:06.563
I think about all the people that I work with that are navigating faith journeys,

00:51:06.723 --> 00:51:11.963
faith crisis, faith deconstruction, and they can project so much of that person can't do this.

00:51:12.463 --> 00:51:17.383
They can't just think this thing that they want or buck against the system.

00:51:17.743 --> 00:51:20.863
The projection there is because that would mean that, wait, could I?

00:51:21.183 --> 00:51:23.123
Because I haven't. I haven't tried to do that.

00:51:23.463 --> 00:51:26.663
So if they're doing it, that's a me thing that I have a struggle with why they're

00:51:26.663 --> 00:51:28.583
doing it. Let them, let them do that.

00:51:29.581 --> 00:51:33.701
Because what if that means, oh, so actually these thoughts or feelings or emotions

00:51:33.701 --> 00:51:37.721
or opinions that I have that I'm stuffing and that person's expressing,

00:51:38.221 --> 00:51:42.301
man, I guess I'm kind of frustrated and angry because why couldn't I have the

00:51:42.301 --> 00:51:44.381
courage to express my own opinions as well?

00:51:45.623 --> 00:51:49.703
That's maybe why it bothers me so much. That might be what my reaction tells

00:51:49.703 --> 00:51:52.183
me about my own values, my own fears, my own struggles.

00:51:52.523 --> 00:51:56.803
And you don't have to answer the questions definitively. Just asking them and

00:51:56.803 --> 00:52:01.243
not being as reactive and judgmental, it starts to shift something internally.

00:52:01.963 --> 00:52:04.623
And the last one, separate your observation from your judgment.

00:52:04.783 --> 00:52:05.763
That is such a superpower.

00:52:06.303 --> 00:52:10.763
In my four pillars of a connected conversation, there's a pre-pillar that is

00:52:10.763 --> 00:52:13.643
to separate observation from judgment. It's taken from the work of Marshall

00:52:13.643 --> 00:52:15.803
Rosenberg and his book, Nonviolent Communications.

00:52:16.363 --> 00:52:19.283
Before we can have a connection with someone, before we can have these connected

00:52:19.283 --> 00:52:22.643
conversations, we need to distinguish between what we observe and what we interpret.

00:52:23.063 --> 00:52:25.263
Hey, you got here at seven. We agreed on 630.

00:52:25.763 --> 00:52:28.583
Observation. You don't respect my time and don't care about me.

00:52:29.143 --> 00:52:30.683
Interpretation. Usually a projection.

00:52:31.523 --> 00:52:34.683
So practice separating observation from judgment in your daily interactions.

00:52:34.683 --> 00:52:37.263
Instead of saying you never help around the house, judgment,

00:52:37.543 --> 00:52:40.403
try, hey, I noticed the dishes have been in the sink for a couple of days and

00:52:40.403 --> 00:52:41.443
I'm starting to feel overwhelmed.

00:52:41.743 --> 00:52:43.603
There's an observation plus your feeling.

00:52:44.283 --> 00:52:47.403
Instead of you obviously don't care about the relationship, judgment,

00:52:48.063 --> 00:52:52.683
try, we haven't had a meaningful conversation in over a week and I'm missing our connection.

00:52:52.863 --> 00:52:54.943
An observation plus your need.

00:52:55.823 --> 00:52:59.643
This shift will start to transform your communication. Just remember,

00:52:59.843 --> 00:53:01.363
you are not broken. You're human.

00:53:02.003 --> 00:53:04.563
Projection is not something wrong with you. It's not a character flaw that needs

00:53:04.563 --> 00:53:06.143
to be fixed. It's part of being a human being.

00:53:06.323 --> 00:53:08.343
You're not broken for seeing the world through your own lens.

00:53:08.423 --> 00:53:10.583
Of course, you're going to see it through your own lens. That's the only way

00:53:10.583 --> 00:53:11.683
that we can see the world.

00:53:11.983 --> 00:53:16.123
But you can become aware of the lens. You can start to recognize when you're projecting.

00:53:16.443 --> 00:53:18.643
You can learn to question your automatic interpretations.

00:53:18.983 --> 00:53:22.483
And that awareness, that's emotional maturity, my friends. That is growth.

00:53:22.943 --> 00:53:26.243
That's the difference between being controlled by your patterns and emotions

00:53:26.243 --> 00:53:31.083
and being able to choose something different by accepting your emotions and

00:53:31.083 --> 00:53:33.983
by accepting that these are the patterns that I've been engaging in.

00:53:34.703 --> 00:53:38.363
Just please remember, this is the very first time you have been you going through

00:53:38.363 --> 00:53:40.363
life as you in this very moment.

00:53:40.803 --> 00:53:44.503
Nobody knows exactly what you're experiencing. And the same is true for your

00:53:44.503 --> 00:53:46.963
partner, your kids, your friends, everybody around you.

00:53:47.363 --> 00:53:50.223
They're also all going through life for the first time as themselves,

00:53:50.503 --> 00:53:53.803
swimming in their own water, largely unaware of yours, even theirs.

00:53:54.323 --> 00:53:57.963
It's when conflict happens and it will, instead of immediately assuming you

00:53:57.963 --> 00:54:01.223
know what the other person meant, what they intended, why they did what they

00:54:01.223 --> 00:54:03.263
did. Try getting curious.

00:54:04.143 --> 00:54:08.663
Try asking instead of assuming. Try, hey, tell me more about what you're experiencing,

00:54:08.803 --> 00:54:10.103
what you're going through, or what you just did there.

00:54:10.183 --> 00:54:13.083
Help me understand what was happening for you instead of, here's what I think

00:54:13.083 --> 00:54:16.263
you did, or I know exactly why you did that. Because here's the beautiful truth.

00:54:16.423 --> 00:54:19.343
When you stop projecting your story onto other people and you start actually

00:54:19.343 --> 00:54:23.243
getting to know their story, real connection, real intimacy is possible.

00:54:23.423 --> 00:54:26.223
When you recognize that your partner is not deliberately trying to hurt you,

00:54:26.383 --> 00:54:29.623
they're just swimming in different water than you are, compassion is possible.

00:54:29.623 --> 00:54:33.543
And that compassion for yourself and for others, that's where transformation happens.

00:54:33.803 --> 00:54:37.763
That's where relationships shift from being battlegrounds of criticism and judgment

00:54:37.763 --> 00:54:40.663
to places of genuine understanding and curiosity.

00:54:41.043 --> 00:54:44.223
You don't know what you don't know, but now you know about projection.

00:54:44.683 --> 00:54:46.343
Now you know about the water you're swimming in.

00:54:46.963 --> 00:54:51.323
Insert P joke there. And that knowledge gives you choices that you didn't have before.

00:54:51.503 --> 00:54:54.243
So go out there, pay attention to your projections this week.

00:54:54.483 --> 00:54:56.183
Notice when you're assuming instead of asking.

00:54:56.583 --> 00:54:58.583
Notice when you're judging instead of being curious.

00:54:58.983 --> 00:55:01.783
Notice when you're certain about someone else's intentions. And when you catch

00:55:01.783 --> 00:55:05.303
yourself, because you will, do not beat yourself up about it. Just notice it.

00:55:05.483 --> 00:55:10.883
Say to yourself, aha, projection, fascinating, interesting, and then choose something different.

00:55:11.103 --> 00:55:14.423
This is the work and you're doing it. And I'm proud of you for being here,

00:55:14.563 --> 00:55:17.823
for being willing to look at all of this stuff, for being willing to grow.

00:55:18.223 --> 00:55:23.243
Thanks for joining me on my journey that I'm projecting all over you guys on the virtual couch.

00:55:23.383 --> 00:55:27.583
So until next time, taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence.

00:55:28.789 --> 00:55:32.489
Her song. It's wonderful because I promise you life really can be quite wonderful.

00:55:32.849 --> 00:55:34.669
Stay curious about the water you're swimming in.

00:55:35.609 --> 00:55:37.529
Insert P joke there. Take care, everybody.