WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:22.960 Music. 00:00:22.805 --> 00:00:25.425 Hey everybody, welcome to what I think is going to be a very, 00:00:25.625 --> 00:00:27.665 very special episode of The Virtual Couch Presents. 00:00:27.825 --> 00:00:32.445 And most likely you'll hear this one on both or either The Virtual Couch as 00:00:32.445 --> 00:00:33.645 well as waking up to narcissism. 00:00:33.865 --> 00:00:37.205 So before I get to that, I will make the business items hopefully brief. 00:00:37.465 --> 00:00:43.145 Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch, on TikTok at virtualcouch, 00:00:43.325 --> 00:00:45.385 and sign up for my newsletter at tonyoverbay.com. 00:00:45.845 --> 00:00:49.765 I want your questions, I want your feedback, and I may have some space for a 00:00:49.765 --> 00:00:52.525 client or two here and there. So if you think you would work well with me. 00:00:53.045 --> 00:00:55.445 Email me why you think so and what's going on in your life. 00:00:55.625 --> 00:00:58.925 And if you're a guy struggling with turning to a particular coping mechanism 00:00:58.925 --> 00:01:03.085 that apparently I need to refer to as struggling to stop looking at corn, 00:01:03.385 --> 00:01:09.005 as in cornography, my Path Back Recovery program is wonderful. It's amazing. 00:01:09.145 --> 00:01:13.485 So I would recommend that you check it out at pathbackrecovery.com and email me. 00:01:13.505 --> 00:01:18.805 I will give you a discount code and then my Men's Emotional Architects group is ready for action. 00:01:18.805 --> 00:01:22.585 I have a private women's Facebook group for women in or navigating relationships 00:01:22.585 --> 00:01:26.485 with emotionally immature or narcissistic, fill in the blank, 00:01:26.625 --> 00:01:28.545 spouse, parent, sibling, boss, pet, 00:01:28.925 --> 00:01:33.225 insert cat joke there, but reach out and look for a link in the show notes if 00:01:33.225 --> 00:01:37.065 you want to come on a cruise in January with myself and my good friend, 00:01:37.205 --> 00:01:41.485 Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, as we set sail out of Galveston. 00:01:41.485 --> 00:01:47.005 And it is going to be an amazing cruise focused on living an incredible life. 00:01:47.205 --> 00:01:50.905 We'll talk about all kinds of things, mental health, not in an awkward way with 00:01:50.905 --> 00:01:56.305 workshops and come eat dinner with me, stop by or stop me at any time that you 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:00.485 see me and ask me all of your questions about everything, 00:02:00.765 --> 00:02:05.685 marriage and family and parenting and ADHD and emotional maturity. 00:02:06.205 --> 00:02:11.845 All of it, but just come with a soft serve cone in hand. But we would love to have you join us. 00:02:11.965 --> 00:02:14.145 And so let's get to today's show. 00:02:14.585 --> 00:02:18.245 And please understand that I am here to share and possibly entertain a little 00:02:18.245 --> 00:02:19.225 bit, but not to diagnose. 00:02:19.305 --> 00:02:24.385 So please find a good therapist, because I think that is truly what matters the most. 00:02:24.905 --> 00:02:30.505 Now, I haven't talked much publicly about this, but on July 13th of this year, 00:02:30.625 --> 00:02:32.845 so a little over two months ago, my mom passed away. 00:02:33.105 --> 00:02:39.545 She was 77 years old. And so today I'm going to replay an interview that I did 00:02:39.545 --> 00:02:41.225 with my good friend, Tricia Jameson. 00:02:41.345 --> 00:02:45.165 She's host of the Q&A Files podcast, where I normally join her. 00:02:45.405 --> 00:02:48.705 She's a board-certified functional nutritionist and her husband, Dr. 00:02:48.825 --> 00:02:52.485 Jeff, who is a board-certified family physician. And we tackle all kinds of 00:02:52.485 --> 00:02:56.165 questions from listeners and articles on mental health and physical health and 00:02:56.165 --> 00:02:58.525 nutritional health, all those things. 00:02:58.905 --> 00:03:04.425 And Tricia asked me shortly after my mom died if I was open to talking about 00:03:04.425 --> 00:03:06.225 it or when I might be open to talking about it. 00:03:06.405 --> 00:03:11.705 And I really was open to talking about it pretty fairly soon after. 00:03:11.705 --> 00:03:14.465 And I even wrote down a whole bunch of things and I recorded a little bit, 00:03:14.545 --> 00:03:16.065 but then I just never did anything with the recording. 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:20.230 So I'm excited to share this with you. I think it's a really raw conversation 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:24.350 that I wanted to bring to my listeners because so many of you have been there 00:03:24.350 --> 00:03:27.890 through the last decade plus of putting out podcasts. 00:03:28.150 --> 00:03:32.890 And it's that odd thing where the therapist doesn't, as much as I'm talking 00:03:32.890 --> 00:03:38.870 about myself on the podcast, there's still a part of me that doesn't let people in too much. 00:03:39.230 --> 00:03:42.290 So I thought that this was something I really wanted to share. 00:03:42.410 --> 00:03:45.690 But before I get to that, I do want to start with a story. I am a licensed marriage 00:03:45.690 --> 00:03:48.890 and family therapist, which is going to matter here in just a little bit, 00:03:48.890 --> 00:03:55.050 because it is important to note that it is not the same as a psychologist or a psychiatrist. 00:03:55.250 --> 00:03:58.810 If I'm being honest, well, first of all, I do get confused for both pretty regularly 00:03:58.810 --> 00:04:01.730 where some of my own clients will say something about, well, 00:04:01.890 --> 00:04:03.730 you know, I told them that Dr. 00:04:03.830 --> 00:04:07.430 Overbay said, I'm thinking, man, who is this Dr. Overbay that shares my name? 00:04:07.530 --> 00:04:12.130 And I'm not even sure who they are, but I'll hear those things and I will normally try to correct those. 00:04:12.770 --> 00:04:15.330 And to be fair, before I was halfway through graduate school, 00:04:15.810 --> 00:04:20.010 I honestly wasn't totally sure what the difference was either between a therapist 00:04:20.010 --> 00:04:24.290 and a psychiatrist and a psychologist. So let me clarify, because I think it will come into play. 00:04:24.430 --> 00:04:27.250 A licensed marriage and family therapist, an LMFT like myself, 00:04:27.610 --> 00:04:31.350 typically earns their undergraduate degree in a subject, maybe psychology. 00:04:31.670 --> 00:04:34.770 Mine was actually in mass communications with an emphasis in public relations. 00:04:35.110 --> 00:04:39.050 And while I never declared a minor, I did take several psychology classes as 00:04:39.050 --> 00:04:42.510 well as a sociology class or two. and I really enjoyed them. 00:04:42.710 --> 00:04:46.310 I absolutely loved them. But at that time, I didn't really even think that one 00:04:46.310 --> 00:04:48.950 could make their living doing therapy. 00:04:49.659 --> 00:04:53.519 But to be an LMFT after you get your undergraduate degree or your bachelor's 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.999 degree, or at least I'll kind of go down my path. 00:04:56.119 --> 00:04:58.659 But I went on to get my master's degree in counseling. 00:04:58.999 --> 00:05:02.099 And that took a couple of years. And then from there, I completed a clinical 00:05:02.099 --> 00:05:06.179 internship, which was about 3,000 hours of supervised therapy work. 00:05:06.339 --> 00:05:09.839 Before then, I could sit for two licensing exams. And you pass them. 00:05:10.139 --> 00:05:12.679 And it's rigorous. And it can be stressful. 00:05:13.059 --> 00:05:14.919 But it doesn't make me a doctor. 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.499 A clinical psychologist, on the other hand, goes beyond the master's degree. 00:05:19.659 --> 00:05:24.339 That I earned, and they get a doctoral degree, which can be two, three years more. 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.799 And that's where they get their PhD or their PsyD, meaning a doctorate in psychology. 00:05:28.999 --> 00:05:33.539 So yes, they are doctors, but probably not the kind that you want to stand up 00:05:33.539 --> 00:05:35.779 when somebody yells, is there a doctor on this plane? 00:05:36.179 --> 00:05:40.559 And then there's a psychiatrist, and that's a legitimate medical doctor who 00:05:40.559 --> 00:05:44.999 went to medical school and did rounds and probably set a few bones and maybe 00:05:44.999 --> 00:05:48.559 even delivered a baby before deciding that they wanted to focus on the mind. 00:05:49.179 --> 00:05:53.859 That is the kind of doctor who prescribes medication and manages very complex 00:05:53.859 --> 00:05:56.599 mental health conditions from a medical perspective. 00:05:56.779 --> 00:06:00.099 And I would definitely rather have them saying, I am a doctor. 00:06:00.139 --> 00:06:04.759 If somebody yells, is there a doctor on this airplane before the doctor of psychology? No offense. 00:06:05.299 --> 00:06:10.479 So again, very clearly, I'm not a doctor, but for as long as I can remember, 00:06:10.779 --> 00:06:14.979 my mom, bless her heart, believed I was a doctor and not just any vague, 00:06:15.159 --> 00:06:16.179 proud parent sort of way. 00:06:16.479 --> 00:06:20.299 She really did think that I was a full-blown white coat wearing stethoscope, 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:21.859 toting, prescription writing doctor. 00:06:22.219 --> 00:06:26.279 And not that long ago, even she bought me this really cool pen light that she 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.039 thought that I would like for when I needed to dilate somebody's pupils or maybe 00:06:30.039 --> 00:06:32.639 even look down their throat, which are not things that I do. 00:06:33.659 --> 00:06:37.979 I've never actually dilated a pupil if I'm being honest, But I've definitely 00:06:37.979 --> 00:06:40.099 tried to look down my own throat. 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:44.119 Google tonsil stones or what we refer to in my home as throat peanuts. 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:49.079 Or honestly, don't because you'll either realize they have a name and kind of 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:50.839 one of those if you know, you know kind of things. 00:06:51.159 --> 00:06:53.539 Or you'll never be able to unsee what you're about to see. 00:06:53.859 --> 00:06:58.599 And never, ever smash them between your fingers. Because if you thought getting 00:06:58.599 --> 00:07:00.399 the smell of onions off your fingers was difficult. 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.439 Anyway, maybe that was something. Maybe this whole thing I should edit out this part. 00:07:04.619 --> 00:07:08.879 But I'm not going to. But back to the story. So no, no amount of explaining 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.999 that I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist could ever quite override 00:07:11.999 --> 00:07:15.599 the story to my mom that her baby boy is a doctor. 00:07:16.059 --> 00:07:19.599 And she would say with total conviction, well, you're the doctor, you should know. 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:25.899 I remember one time her asking me if a medication was a blood thinner or something like a sleep aid. 00:07:26.259 --> 00:07:29.779 And I tried to gently clarify and she cut me off with, okay, 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:33.199 no, I'm asking you, you're the doctor, just tell me. And another time, 00:07:33.359 --> 00:07:36.259 I disagreed with her about a piece of advice that she had given someone in my 00:07:36.259 --> 00:07:40.419 family, and then she even raised an eyebrow and said, well, that surprises me coming from a doctor. 00:07:41.219 --> 00:07:45.119 So eventually, I stopped trying to correct her, because it really didn't matter. 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:48.019 That was her story, and I guess in a way, it was her truth. 00:07:48.931 --> 00:07:54.211 Now, fast forward to just a few months ago, it was maybe a month or a month 00:07:54.211 --> 00:07:57.991 and a half before she passed, and she was first admitted into the ICU, 00:07:57.991 --> 00:07:59.911 and it was looking really touch and go. 00:08:00.171 --> 00:08:04.131 Her lungs were full of fluid, and she was really struggling to breathe, 00:08:04.131 --> 00:08:08.171 and it was this start of what became her transition to hospice. 00:08:08.351 --> 00:08:12.431 Now, when I arrived at the ICU, we weren't sure that she would make it through 00:08:12.431 --> 00:08:13.391 the first couple of days. 00:08:13.611 --> 00:08:18.251 She was on almost 100% oxygen, and speaking was really, really difficult. 00:08:18.931 --> 00:08:24.511 And so I come into the room, my dad's in there and we're talking and I'm watching my mom's struggle. 00:08:24.711 --> 00:08:28.611 And it was really, it was, it was difficult to see. The doctor walked in shortly after. 00:08:28.911 --> 00:08:32.291 So my dad started talking to the doctor about my mom's condition. 00:08:32.491 --> 00:08:37.911 And then from across the room through her oxygen mask and just sheer will and 00:08:37.911 --> 00:08:43.811 determination, my mom pulls the mask off and says, Lynn, let Tony talk to him. He's the doctor. 00:08:44.271 --> 00:08:49.471 And my back was to her and the real doctor looked at me and he was clearly unsure of what to say. 00:08:49.571 --> 00:08:53.051 And I just smiled and said, I'm not actually a doctor. I'm a marriage therapist. 00:08:53.271 --> 00:08:57.931 And what was just so fun in real time, that real doctor replied, 00:08:58.131 --> 00:09:01.211 I could probably use you. And I just said, yeah, you probably could. 00:09:01.371 --> 00:09:05.211 A lot of my clients are from hospital staff and we shared a good chuckle. 00:09:05.311 --> 00:09:06.931 But again, I'm not a doctor. 00:09:07.771 --> 00:09:11.551 Later, I shared that moment with our family group chat with my kids. 00:09:11.831 --> 00:09:15.211 And I added that when the nurse was being firm with my mom about keeping her 00:09:15.211 --> 00:09:19.431 oxygen mask on, I really thought my mom was going to go right there. 00:09:19.631 --> 00:09:22.291 She was so determined to talk. And then I shared with them, well, 00:09:22.391 --> 00:09:24.971 you know, at least grandma would have died doing something that she loved, 00:09:25.431 --> 00:09:27.011 talking and telling somebody that they're wrong. 00:09:27.531 --> 00:09:31.191 So it was at that moment, my mom pulling off her oxygen mask to advocate, 00:09:31.331 --> 00:09:35.931 I guess for me, reminded me of this story I heard from another therapist, 00:09:35.931 --> 00:09:39.391 but it hit me so hard that I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. 00:09:39.511 --> 00:09:40.791 And I just wanted to share it. 00:09:41.111 --> 00:09:44.231 It's as if I could have seen this thing happening to me. 00:09:45.231 --> 00:09:48.251 And I'm certainly not recommending anybody do what I'm about to describe, 00:09:48.471 --> 00:09:50.911 which this therapist did without guidance from a hospice team. 00:09:51.311 --> 00:09:55.751 However, this moment became one of the most oddly fitting and meaningful gifts 00:09:55.751 --> 00:09:58.111 that this therapist had ever received from his mom. 00:09:58.431 --> 00:10:03.871 And again, if I'm being honest, I very much identified with this story very, 00:10:03.871 --> 00:10:06.951 very deeply as if this were my very own story. 00:10:07.191 --> 00:10:11.591 As if I could have seen it playing out in my own life in precisely the same 00:10:11.591 --> 00:10:13.451 situation in the exact same way. 00:10:13.951 --> 00:10:17.111 Had this been my own experience. But if it had been my own experience, 00:10:17.231 --> 00:10:19.511 of course, I would not want to share it as my experience because I would have 00:10:19.511 --> 00:10:24.531 hated for anyone at the board and care facility that I will describe who were 00:10:24.531 --> 00:10:27.951 doing their best to take care of people during their final days to get in any kind of trouble. 00:10:28.551 --> 00:10:33.731 Even if this story was exactly true and if hypothetically it was mine, 00:10:33.891 --> 00:10:35.251 which I'm saying it isn't. 00:10:35.871 --> 00:10:40.431 So let's just say that this therapist's mom had also spent the better part of 00:10:40.431 --> 00:10:44.991 the last few years believing that he too was a doctor. So imagine that, the coincidence. 00:10:46.122 --> 00:10:50.162 For this guy, same. Not in a cute, symbolic way. She really thought he had his MD. 00:10:50.442 --> 00:10:52.982 And anytime he tried to correct her, she'd wave him off with something like, 00:10:53.062 --> 00:10:56.022 well, you're the doctor, you should know. And so then he too eventually stopped 00:10:56.022 --> 00:10:58.042 trying to correct her. Okay, I think you get the point. 00:10:58.622 --> 00:11:02.562 As her health declined, she was eventually transferred from the hospital to 00:11:02.562 --> 00:11:05.502 a boarding care facility, one exactly like my mom's. 00:11:05.962 --> 00:11:10.022 The kind of small home-style setting where hospice patients receive end-of-life 00:11:10.022 --> 00:11:13.942 care, just like the one that my mom ended up in. And this therapist and his 00:11:13.942 --> 00:11:17.602 father and the therapist's wife were there bedside for her final days again, 00:11:17.722 --> 00:11:20.062 which crazy is exactly like it was in my situation. 00:11:20.462 --> 00:11:24.302 And his mother also became incoherent in her last few days. 00:11:24.462 --> 00:11:28.902 Now, because she had told all the caregivers that her son was a doctor well 00:11:28.902 --> 00:11:32.282 before her son, the therapist, not a doctor had arrived. 00:11:32.522 --> 00:11:35.662 The staff believed her that her son was a doctor. 00:11:35.782 --> 00:11:39.862 So when that therapist arrived to sit with his mother before she eventually 00:11:39.862 --> 00:11:44.242 became incoherent because he would travel back to that location every couple 00:11:44.242 --> 00:11:45.902 of weeks. He'd kept his practice in that area. 00:11:46.422 --> 00:11:51.522 The staff would come in on occasion, and his mother would introduce him as her son, the doctor. 00:11:51.702 --> 00:11:56.742 And you could just see the pride that radiated from her in those final days. 00:11:56.922 --> 00:11:59.682 And so the son, he just rolled with it. 00:12:01.182 --> 00:12:06.522 As the end drew near and his mom faded into incoherence, the hospital staff 00:12:06.522 --> 00:12:10.282 was at the point in this end-of-life care where they were just managing her 00:12:10.282 --> 00:12:12.322 pain. It was just that, pure and simple. 00:12:12.782 --> 00:12:17.422 And so she started to receive liquid morphine as they prepared for the very end. 00:12:18.062 --> 00:12:22.702 Now, a day or two before she passed, her breathing was beginning to get very, very agitated. 00:12:23.122 --> 00:12:27.882 And that was the cue for them to give her more of this liquid morphine, 00:12:28.022 --> 00:12:29.182 this medication for pain. 00:12:29.682 --> 00:12:33.242 Because she was starting to exhibit symptoms of more and more severe pain. 00:12:34.082 --> 00:12:38.142 And in this one particular situation, it was really clear that she needed another 00:12:38.142 --> 00:12:40.522 dose of the liquid morphine. But there was a problem. 00:12:40.762 --> 00:12:45.262 There weren't any of these pre-filled syringes ready, and the nurse wasn't on site. 00:12:46.062 --> 00:12:50.162 But the caregiver turned to the son and said, hey, we're in a little bit of a jam. 00:12:50.442 --> 00:12:55.042 We need a nurse or a doctor to fill the syringes. And well, you are a doctor. 00:12:55.442 --> 00:12:56.762 You can fill that syringe, right? 00:12:57.182 --> 00:13:01.122 In that moment, after days of waiting and watching and holding this space, 00:13:01.382 --> 00:13:05.842 he just stood up and he said, yes, I am. You bet I can definitely do that. 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.900 So he accompanied the staff member to the nurse's station, and the staff member 00:13:09.900 --> 00:13:13.520 noticed that actually they were out of the liquid morphine, to which the therapist, 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.560 who apparently had keen observation skills, 00:13:15.780 --> 00:13:21.800 saw a bottle in his mom's medication tote that looked exactly the same and said on it, morphine. 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.220 He pointed that out, and it was funny, he told me, that the staff member said, 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:27.980 oh, okay, yeah, you would know, you're the doctor. 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.260 And the therapist thought to himself, no, I guess I'm just actually good at 00:13:31.260 --> 00:13:36.940 noticing similar shapes and reading labels on bottles, but a confirmation bias, right? 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:41.300 That person in charge was looking for evidence to confirm, I guess, 00:13:41.420 --> 00:13:45.340 her cognitive bias in that moment that he was in fact a doctor. 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.260 So the therapist walked into the room with his father and the therapist's wife 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:54.360 looking at him with these big eyes thinking, what the heck are you doing? 00:13:54.620 --> 00:13:57.680 But he confidently administered the dose to his mom. 00:13:58.040 --> 00:14:02.580 And this therapist had conveyed to me that it was actually a pretty tender experience. 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:06.800 And it was definitely almost like he said this gift that his mom had given him, 00:14:07.220 --> 00:14:09.240 one that had been set up years in advance. 00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:14.280 I don't know if she had apparently been in on the long con, but to him, 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:15.920 it really was quite the moment. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:19.700 Humorous, yeah, but also somewhat kind of special, 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.100 maybe even sacred, like something had come full circle and it really felt like 00:14:24.100 --> 00:14:28.400 somewhere deep inside of her, she waited for that moment so her son could help 00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:33.000 her one last time the way that she always believed he could as her doctor. 00:14:33.520 --> 00:14:38.900 Because if you knew that mom, she pretty much always found a way to get her way. 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:44.900 And maybe this was her final say, not just about how or when she would go, 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.980 but also about whether or not her son really was a doctor. 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.280 Because in her eyes, he was. 00:14:51.740 --> 00:14:58.580 So for my mom, or scratch that, for that mom, that story was her truth. 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:03.340 Her son was her doctor. and nothing that he could have said could have changed that. 00:15:03.640 --> 00:15:07.620 Kind of like a beautiful delusion that made perfect sense to her. 00:15:07.780 --> 00:15:09.640 And in the end, maybe that's all that mattered. 00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:15.220 So back to my experience with my mom. As I sat bedside during those final days, 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:18.760 I found myself in a completely different role than I am used to. 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:24.760 Not as a therapist helping others process grief, which I've been fortunate enough to do quite often. 00:15:24.900 --> 00:15:28.800 And I know the things to say that apparently were the right things to say. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.740 But this time I was the sun and I was experiencing it firsthand. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.860 You know, it's one thing to guide clients through loss, but it's another thing 00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:40.740 entirely to be the one sitting bedside next to somebody that has been a part 00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:45.800 of your life for literally your entire life, waiting for something you can't control. 00:15:46.400 --> 00:15:51.560 It's happening. It's relentless. It's going to be what it's going to be, 00:15:51.640 --> 00:15:52.860 whether you want it to or not. 00:15:53.640 --> 00:15:56.540 Whether there would have been an easier way for you to experience it or not, 00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:57.700 it's just going to happen. 00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:01.500 This conversation is definitely not a clinical discussion about the stages of 00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.880 grief and loss or therapeutic techniques for processing loss. 00:16:06.153 --> 00:16:09.413 I think this is pretty raw, it's honest, and hopefully funny, 00:16:09.433 --> 00:16:14.453 because that's what real grief looks like. It's messy, it's unpredictable, 00:16:14.853 --> 00:16:19.913 there are ups and downs, and there can be humor, and it doesn't follow the textbooks. 00:16:20.733 --> 00:16:23.993 And Tricia asked the questions that I think would have been really interesting 00:16:23.993 --> 00:16:28.413 to ponder beforehand, accepting the fact that I honestly wouldn't have known 00:16:28.413 --> 00:16:31.733 the answers, because that was just about to be the very first time that I was 00:16:31.733 --> 00:16:33.193 going to go through that experience as me. 00:16:33.733 --> 00:16:37.413 So we talk about the humor that shows up in even what might be viewed as the 00:16:37.413 --> 00:16:40.973 darkest moments, the spiritual experiences that maybe you hope for, 00:16:41.113 --> 00:16:44.813 but might not get, and why, hey, let me know if you need anything, 00:16:45.033 --> 00:16:47.293 might not actually be as helpful as we think it is. 00:16:47.653 --> 00:16:51.393 But most importantly, I think we explore what it means to sit with uncertainty, 00:16:51.393 --> 00:16:57.113 to be present with pain, or with all the emotions that are kind of happening at once. 00:16:57.273 --> 00:17:00.893 You might have some pain, sorrow, grief, humor frustration 00:17:00.893 --> 00:17:05.153 and being sleepy and hungry and 00:17:05.153 --> 00:17:08.273 and dopey and doc kind of had to go there or at 00:17:08.273 --> 00:17:13.833 times feeling almost apathetic and also to try and find meaning in that whole 00:17:13.833 --> 00:17:19.473 process of waiting so whether or not you are processing your own loss or supporting 00:17:19.473 --> 00:17:23.213 somebody who is or if you're even just curious about what it's like when the 00:17:23.213 --> 00:17:27.213 the helper i guess that would be me becomes the one who needs the help. 00:17:27.433 --> 00:17:32.533 I think this conversation is something that offers a little of all of that, 00:17:32.933 --> 00:17:36.193 because it's definitely not about having all the answers, because how could you have them? 00:17:36.293 --> 00:17:38.773 It's the first time you're going through that whole experience as you, 00:17:38.933 --> 00:17:44.453 but it's about being, I think, human enough to sit with the questions and to 00:17:44.453 --> 00:17:49.093 notice all the things that are happening in a way that you're not doing any of it wrong. 00:17:49.813 --> 00:17:54.073 You're just going through it. You're just being and doing. So you can just kind 00:17:54.073 --> 00:17:57.133 of check that out. This is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm feeling. 00:17:58.375 --> 00:18:02.195 Here's my conversation with Tricia about grief and grace and what I learned 00:18:02.195 --> 00:18:04.135 on the other side of the couch. 00:18:09.055 --> 00:18:14.255 Sometimes you walk with others through their hardest moments. We offer words. 00:18:14.655 --> 00:18:19.015 We hold space for them. We speak softly into someone else's pain, 00:18:19.295 --> 00:18:24.215 especially when you're a therapist, a coach, or a physician. 00:18:24.655 --> 00:18:27.175 You learn how to sit with suffering. 00:18:27.875 --> 00:18:33.275 You learn how to stay steady for others. You learn the language of deep compassion. 00:18:33.575 --> 00:18:36.315 But then one day, it may be your turn. 00:18:36.655 --> 00:18:42.915 So today's episode is a tender one. It's about what happens when the helper becomes the griefer. 00:18:43.135 --> 00:18:48.475 When the one who usually has the answers finds himself sitting in the unknown. 00:18:48.795 --> 00:18:54.215 This episode is called On the Other Side of the Couch, Grief and Grace with Tony Overbate. 00:18:55.055 --> 00:19:00.155 Tony recently lost his mom, and today he's sharing what that journey looks like, 00:19:00.415 --> 00:19:03.275 not just as a therapist, but also as a son. 00:19:03.615 --> 00:19:08.275 So welcome, friends, to the Q&A Files. I'm Tricia Jameson, and today we're having 00:19:08.275 --> 00:19:14.195 an honest, heart-level conversation about grief, grace, and what truly shifts 00:19:14.195 --> 00:19:17.835 in us when we're the one experiencing that grace. 00:19:18.475 --> 00:19:22.255 Before we dive in, as always, I'd like to start with celebrations. 00:19:22.255 --> 00:19:26.555 And I know even in the midst of grief, sometimes there's those little moments 00:19:26.555 --> 00:19:31.235 of light. I remember when my dad passed away, we just had a lot of those tender moments. 00:19:31.355 --> 00:19:34.395 Is there anything that you'd like to share with us today, Tony? 00:19:35.591 --> 00:19:38.931 Well, it's funny. I was already queuing up a joke. So now I can't. 00:19:39.051 --> 00:19:40.731 Go ahead and share the joke. 00:19:41.331 --> 00:19:45.311 Because that is who you are. It is who I am. And we'll talk about that too, 00:19:45.451 --> 00:19:46.811 because that was pretty fascinating. 00:19:47.251 --> 00:19:51.171 When you said that I had lost my mom, and I think I've told you off the air 00:19:51.171 --> 00:19:55.731 before, but I can't turn off my humor brain and it's going constantly. 00:19:55.951 --> 00:19:58.991 And when people have said to me in the past where they've said, 00:19:59.071 --> 00:20:03.371 you know, we lost my grandpa back in 2012, my immediate thought is, 00:20:03.371 --> 00:20:08.571 do you guys ever find him and it makes me laugh every time and so i thought that so many times, 00:20:09.211 --> 00:20:12.211 i'm never gonna look at that question the same ever 00:20:12.211 --> 00:20:15.031 again it's the best oh my god as a matter of fact i've been i've been jotting down 00:20:15.031 --> 00:20:17.971 some notes for doing a bit of a podcast on some on the 00:20:17.971 --> 00:20:20.951 virtual couch or some of these things and i already of course i'm gonna have 00:20:20.951 --> 00:20:26.471 to call it losing tony losing tony's mom and it's going to start with a hilarious 00:20:26.471 --> 00:20:30.591 narrative of yeah we can find her it was really rough oh my gosh we're still 00:20:30.591 --> 00:20:33.911 looking for her okay i will tell you a celebration And so this one actually 00:20:33.911 --> 00:20:35.071 has some humor in it as well. 00:20:35.451 --> 00:20:40.331 It was two weeks ago on a Wednesday. This is really funny because it was the client that just left. 00:20:40.491 --> 00:20:44.331 And then I got out of that session. I had a text from my dad and he said, 00:20:44.411 --> 00:20:49.411 hey, if you can, can you can you FaceTime me? My dad doesn't ever ask for me to FaceTime. 00:20:50.191 --> 00:20:54.631 And I knew that he was at this board and care with my mom. And I still go back 00:20:54.631 --> 00:20:57.731 and forth between California and Arizona because I've maintained my practice there. 00:20:58.131 --> 00:21:01.251 And so I had been spending some time with my mom in the board and care. 00:21:01.251 --> 00:21:05.891 And she'd been, even though she was on hospice, she seemed like she was rallying. 00:21:06.211 --> 00:21:09.311 And, and we were, when I would hang out there, we would watch TV together. 00:21:09.571 --> 00:21:13.091 She would tell some stories, that sort of thing. But then I FaceTimed my dad. 00:21:13.877 --> 00:21:18.877 And he had my mom there and you could tell that she just looked like she was 00:21:18.877 --> 00:21:22.357 kind of already gone internally and it looked like it wasn't even her. 00:21:22.817 --> 00:21:28.497 And then I realized, oh man, I might be saying goodbye to her right now. And it was wild. 00:21:28.637 --> 00:21:31.497 And I just sat there. I didn't have a client at that time. And then he just 00:21:31.497 --> 00:21:34.117 texted and said, hey, if you can get here today, that'd be great. 00:21:34.117 --> 00:21:37.597 And so then I called my wife and then I canceled the rest of the afternoon. 00:21:37.597 --> 00:21:40.077 And then we were on a plane and we landed. 00:21:40.537 --> 00:21:45.497 And so the humor, of course, is that I was hungry and we hadn't eaten. 00:21:45.717 --> 00:21:48.457 And I picked up the rental car right before midnight. 00:21:48.917 --> 00:21:51.377 And if we wouldn't have made it by midnight, we'd had an Uber. 00:21:51.637 --> 00:21:53.317 And so it's like that timing worked great. 00:21:53.597 --> 00:21:56.477 And In-N-Out is open until 1.30 in the morning. So I just thought, 00:21:56.577 --> 00:21:59.057 OK, well, it's on the way to the boarding care. 00:21:59.257 --> 00:22:04.237 And I sat there thinking, man, if I end up missing her by 10 minutes because 00:22:04.237 --> 00:22:08.317 I wanted a cheeseburger and some well-done fries, that probably wouldn't be 00:22:08.317 --> 00:22:10.477 a good thing. But I got the cheeseburger and we ended up. 00:22:10.537 --> 00:22:14.437 So I guess the maybe a celebration is, you know, we did make it there. 00:22:14.537 --> 00:22:19.477 That was a it was pretty amazing just to go from in my office one minute to 00:22:19.477 --> 00:22:22.137 then home and pick up Wendy and we're at the airport and then I'm there. 00:22:22.137 --> 00:22:26.937 And then we were at the Borden Care by one that morning and then it was let 00:22:26.937 --> 00:22:32.377 the waiting begin and it was almost four days of her hanging in there. 00:22:33.117 --> 00:22:37.637 Yeah, so celebration. In-N-Out, well done fries and a cheeseburger on the way 00:22:37.637 --> 00:22:39.097 to the Borden Care. There we go. 00:22:39.997 --> 00:22:43.797 Having a full tummy makes everything so much better, right? 00:22:44.077 --> 00:22:46.717 Yeah, but that would have been pretty bad though if I would have pulled up there 00:22:46.717 --> 00:22:50.597 and I'm still got my soda cup in hand and my dad says you missed her by a minute 00:22:50.597 --> 00:22:54.197 or two. So that would have been a challenge, right? Yeah. 00:22:54.457 --> 00:22:57.097 Well, it's interesting too, because when my dad passed away, 00:22:57.297 --> 00:23:02.357 we were living in Yakima and I had that phone call. 00:23:02.797 --> 00:23:06.697 You better come over. And I'd kind of already said goodbye to my dad. 00:23:06.917 --> 00:23:10.397 So Yakima is about three, over three hours to get to Spokane. 00:23:10.397 --> 00:23:16.177 And if I had left right at that moment and I had all these children that I needed 00:23:16.177 --> 00:23:21.777 to pack or find something to do with them, I wouldn't have made it. 00:23:21.937 --> 00:23:24.257 So I think it was the best decision. 00:23:24.677 --> 00:23:29.997 But I remember feeling a lot of guilt. Just, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm not going over. 00:23:29.997 --> 00:23:35.997 Even though the day before I left, I did say goodbye and I just did all those 00:23:35.997 --> 00:23:41.337 things that you try to do at a time like that. 00:23:42.357 --> 00:23:47.617 But I still think that even today, it's like, gosh, maybe he would have held 00:23:47.617 --> 00:23:49.137 on if he knew I was coming. Maybe. 00:23:50.121 --> 00:23:56.381 I don't know. And so, but they, my siblings talk about this tender moment that they all had with him. 00:23:56.541 --> 00:23:58.781 And I wasn't part of that experience. 00:23:59.021 --> 00:24:01.801 So sometimes I do feel a little. Okay. The therapist in me says, 00:24:01.901 --> 00:24:05.141 I'm sorry to hear that because, and I think it ties into maybe what we're going 00:24:05.141 --> 00:24:09.861 to talk about today because I've processed with so many people those moments. 00:24:09.941 --> 00:24:15.881 And so it was such an interesting experience to then be in that moment there at the bedside. 00:24:15.881 --> 00:24:21.721 And just in general, and I was telling my wife this, that it's fascinating because 00:24:21.721 --> 00:24:27.241 the hospice staff, the hospice nurse was incredible and there was a hospice social worker. 00:24:27.421 --> 00:24:31.781 And I think that's just such a special person that works in that space. 00:24:32.961 --> 00:24:39.161 But then I also, again, going back to jokes, the things that they said were so comforting. 00:24:39.361 --> 00:24:41.881 But then I realized at one point it was like, wait a minute, 00:24:42.021 --> 00:24:43.181 they've got all their bases covered. 00:24:43.341 --> 00:24:47.001 Because at first they said, you know, sometimes they wait for you to be out 00:24:47.001 --> 00:24:48.861 of the room to go because they don't want you to be there. 00:24:49.101 --> 00:24:52.201 But sometimes they wait for you to get in the room and then they go. 00:24:52.381 --> 00:24:55.161 And when each one of those was said, I was like, man, that's beautiful. 00:24:55.421 --> 00:24:59.481 Then I realized, wait a minute. So if I'm there or if I'm not. 00:25:00.121 --> 00:25:03.921 But they're correct either way. You know, because I thought that was that was really funny. 00:25:04.661 --> 00:25:08.961 And I realized, gosh, we want certainty so bad. And we just wanted somebody 00:25:08.961 --> 00:25:11.961 to tell us, hey, do you think it'll be tonight or do you think it'll be tomorrow? 00:25:12.421 --> 00:25:17.261 And nobody knows. Nobody knows. But people are trying to then figure out the 00:25:17.261 --> 00:25:20.581 right thing to say, trying to figure out what would you want to hear. 00:25:20.581 --> 00:25:24.441 And there were times where at one point, I think I was wanting to hear that 00:25:24.441 --> 00:25:30.261 it wouldn't be much longer because it just really seemed like she was not there. 00:25:30.341 --> 00:25:32.721 And that person's like, oh, she could stay for days. 00:25:33.021 --> 00:25:35.881 And then I was like, that's not the right answer. And nobody knows. 00:25:36.061 --> 00:25:38.081 And so I just thought that was a really fascinating part of it. 00:25:38.461 --> 00:25:42.161 Oh, but where I was going with that, Trisha, is, again, I'm so sorry to hear 00:25:42.161 --> 00:25:47.181 that you can still go to that place of, did you feel like you missed that opportunity? 00:25:49.341 --> 00:25:53.501 Yeah I mean it's been so many years later, 00:25:54.604 --> 00:25:59.504 And I definitely don't focus on that as much. 00:25:59.984 --> 00:26:03.284 But yeah, I mean, there's still that. If we ever talk about it, 00:26:03.604 --> 00:26:07.584 they kind of share some of those tender moments just prior. 00:26:07.864 --> 00:26:12.464 And it's just, you can feel a different presence in the room. 00:26:13.044 --> 00:26:15.824 And it just, there's a lot more light. 00:26:17.064 --> 00:26:24.924 And for those that have more of a spiritual outlook, that is something that people look for. 00:26:25.444 --> 00:26:29.844 Yeah. So, yeah, I appreciate that. Well, and so I'll tell you the hilarious 00:26:29.844 --> 00:26:34.684 couples therapist version of this, too, where I worked with a couple once. 00:26:34.924 --> 00:26:38.184 And it was so interesting to now understand being in that, and again, 00:26:38.284 --> 00:26:41.984 in that moment or in that situation and understand even some of the stories 00:26:41.984 --> 00:26:44.964 that I've worked with before and what they must have been like. 00:26:44.964 --> 00:26:49.404 And there was a couple that the wife was so upset that the husband was not there 00:26:49.404 --> 00:26:52.184 when it was her mom or her dad had passed away. 00:26:52.484 --> 00:26:55.784 But then the guy said, but you asked me to go get you Starbucks. 00:26:56.084 --> 00:27:00.384 And so then I did and I missed it. And then she was saying, but you should have 00:27:00.384 --> 00:27:02.284 known, you know, you should have known that he was. 00:27:02.464 --> 00:27:05.404 And that's one of those where it's, man, people just so want to make sense or 00:27:05.404 --> 00:27:06.924 they weren't in a good spot anyway. 00:27:07.164 --> 00:27:11.964 And so it's like there's something that then she now will most likely hold over him. 00:27:12.264 --> 00:27:15.184 Oh, that's so sad. I really appreciate that comment, though, 00:27:15.244 --> 00:27:20.684 that people want to make sense of the situation. And sometimes you just can't. 00:27:21.364 --> 00:27:25.564 You just get to experience it. There's no making sense of it. 00:27:25.704 --> 00:27:30.664 And that was, you're so spot on because I started to notice we would check her 00:27:30.664 --> 00:27:36.384 oxygenation level and it would be a certain number. And then we're on chat GPT and Google. 00:27:36.624 --> 00:27:39.164 And it's, oh, if it's this, it could be any minute. So I'm like, 00:27:39.204 --> 00:27:42.844 oh, man, we're all up by the bed. And wasn't it like in the 40s or something like that? Yeah. 00:27:43.724 --> 00:27:47.464 But my mom, bless her heart, was very stubborn. So she was going to do it on her own time. 00:27:47.964 --> 00:27:53.884 And I think I sent you and Dr. Jeff something I had shared with my extended family. But, 00:27:54.550 --> 00:27:57.590 They were saying that hearing is maybe the last thing to go. 00:27:57.950 --> 00:28:01.570 And so for a while, we were doing the, hey, it's okay. Like, 00:28:01.630 --> 00:28:03.890 you can go. You've done great. And I realized, wait a minute. 00:28:04.030 --> 00:28:05.330 She doesn't like to be told what to do. 00:28:05.570 --> 00:28:09.390 So then a little later, I was back. I'm like, hey, you know what? 00:28:09.470 --> 00:28:11.530 You can actually stick around as long as you want. As a matter of fact. 00:28:12.630 --> 00:28:18.010 Rebirth psychology. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh, I love it. That is so funny. 00:28:18.370 --> 00:28:22.450 So how long from then? How long from then did she pass away? 00:28:22.450 --> 00:28:26.510 So it was, I mean, it was, we got there Thursday morning at like 1 a.m. 00:28:26.510 --> 00:28:28.810 And she passed away on Sunday afternoon. 00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:32.910 And so that was a few days and she was incoherent that entire time. 00:28:33.050 --> 00:28:37.330 But there was such a, it was such an interesting experience on Sunday morning. 00:28:38.050 --> 00:28:42.950 Out of nowhere, she opens her eyes and there's a CNA in there and a hospice nurse. 00:28:43.210 --> 00:28:47.150 And then, oh my gosh. And it was like a movie script. And then we all get over 00:28:47.150 --> 00:28:50.110 there and holding her hand and my dad's looking at her and you can go. 00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:53.790 And she's like trying to talk and she can't really get anything out. 00:28:54.050 --> 00:28:56.030 And there was a tiny part of me that was worried if she did, 00:28:56.170 --> 00:28:58.190 she might not say nice things. 00:28:58.310 --> 00:29:02.030 But it was nice because we were like, no, she's trying to say she loves us and 00:29:02.030 --> 00:29:04.050 goodbye. And so I liked that version a lot. 00:29:04.310 --> 00:29:09.450 And then her breathing got really intense and then it slowed down and she closed her eyes. 00:29:09.850 --> 00:29:12.970 And then she went right back to just there. 00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:17.050 And I just thought, man, that was a movie ending that then it didn't end. 00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:21.570 So then there was like, it was just so fascinating because then we all just 00:29:21.570 --> 00:29:23.170 kind of sat back down again and just. 00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.650 Four days later I mean we're out of stories to tell we've been 00:29:26.650 --> 00:29:29.430 playing music it was really interesting and so then 00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:34.530 a few hours later I needed to go do laundry I brought it with me and so I ran 00:29:34.530 --> 00:29:38.810 over to my dad's house and then my mom went while I was gone yeah so it was 00:29:38.810 --> 00:29:45.130 just so interesting that that experience wow so I want to go back to that place 00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:48.090 in just a few minutes but But I was just thinking about, 00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:52.890 you know, you've sat with so many people in grief over the years, your clients, 00:29:53.230 --> 00:29:55.670 friends, even a lot of your listeners here. 00:29:56.370 --> 00:30:02.310 Can you take us to the place that you felt this shift? 00:30:02.450 --> 00:30:04.830 You know, what surprised you? What was helpful for you? 00:30:05.190 --> 00:30:08.890 I love the question. I'm a big acceptance and commitment therapy person. 00:30:09.050 --> 00:30:12.810 It's the first time we're going through life is us. So there is really no playbook, 00:30:12.970 --> 00:30:16.950 but there's ways that we assume we should show up or things that we think we 00:30:16.950 --> 00:30:18.370 should be thinking or feeling. 00:30:18.590 --> 00:30:22.050 So I was so ready to just go there and be. 00:30:22.510 --> 00:30:28.390 But the part that I forgot was that your mind can think anything it wants. 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:33.530 And so I would still have these moments where I'm sitting there and I'm just 00:30:33.530 --> 00:30:38.170 trying to be present, but I would notice the stories my brain wanted to tell 00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:41.050 me of things like, man, maybe you could have done a better job as a son. 00:30:41.330 --> 00:30:43.330 And the part that was interesting was... 00:30:44.198 --> 00:30:48.998 The good news was having really embraced acceptance and commitment therapy long 00:30:48.998 --> 00:30:53.178 ago, I immediately went to this place of like, whoa, that's the thought I'm 00:30:53.178 --> 00:30:55.998 going to have right now. That's not a very productive one. I'm not a big fan of that one. 00:30:56.438 --> 00:30:59.178 Instead of it just like, oh, I feel bad. Yeah. 00:30:59.398 --> 00:31:02.098 Yeah. So that was the part. And then once that happened and it happened pretty 00:31:02.098 --> 00:31:05.858 early, then it was I just realized, oh, that's right. 00:31:06.018 --> 00:31:10.438 I can do all the work I want to, but my mind can think anything it wants. 00:31:10.598 --> 00:31:14.358 And then my body will feel a lot of different feelings. So I was able to look 00:31:14.358 --> 00:31:18.538 at those with more curiosity and because some of them weren't great. 00:31:18.738 --> 00:31:19.578 Some of them were hilarious. 00:31:19.978 --> 00:31:23.758 Some of them were, they were just all over the place. And so I appreciated that. 00:31:23.898 --> 00:31:26.238 That was where it really shifted to, oh, I'm here. 00:31:26.458 --> 00:31:31.818 Like I am doing this. This is, this is happening. This is an experience that I will now pull from. 00:31:32.038 --> 00:31:36.518 You know, this is, this is something that I will never forget, 00:31:36.698 --> 00:31:39.138 except for if I do, when I get older, if my memory slides. 00:31:39.638 --> 00:31:42.718 And i've written a lot about it while i was there and since 00:31:42.718 --> 00:31:45.998 and so i've tried to like pack in all the feelings and 00:31:45.998 --> 00:31:48.758 emotions and memories and but it really it was kind 00:31:48.758 --> 00:31:52.218 of surreal just to think that i don't know i don't know if you've had that feeling 00:31:52.218 --> 00:31:57.258 for where you're in a moment and it's like wow this is really happening and 00:31:57.258 --> 00:32:00.778 that was one of those that just felt really profound yeah this is real time 00:32:00.778 --> 00:32:05.718 yeah yeah definitely i've had that experience it's very it's almost like this 00:32:05.718 --> 00:32:06.918 out-of-body experience? 00:32:07.438 --> 00:32:09.578 A little bit. Yeah. It's really interesting. 00:32:10.278 --> 00:32:12.818 You know, I've got one that's going to sound like I'm trying to work in, 00:32:12.978 --> 00:32:17.378 oh, let me mention my ultramarathon races, but it really, one of the other times 00:32:17.378 --> 00:32:19.638 I would feel this and not, of course, in that similar way. 00:32:20.078 --> 00:32:24.398 So I did a few of these like a hundred mile runs and that's kind of nuts now 00:32:24.398 --> 00:32:27.438 to think about it that I'm, because I'm not going to probably do any more of those. 00:32:27.958 --> 00:32:30.258 Right. And so I would be at the starting line on one of those. 00:32:30.418 --> 00:32:34.538 And I would just think it would be so wild to think, wow, I am about to do this 00:32:34.538 --> 00:32:37.958 for like the next 24 hours. Like I, and it is about to happen. 00:32:38.418 --> 00:32:43.478 And I just, it was one of the most out of body experiences. And so there was a similar feeling. 00:32:43.718 --> 00:32:47.478 That's funny. We mentioned that, that I was there. I'm like, whoa, this I'm here. 00:32:47.838 --> 00:32:51.698 I'm not leaving. It is going to end. I don't know when. 00:32:52.606 --> 00:32:55.566 It was wild. And you're going to experience it for 24 hours. 00:32:55.586 --> 00:32:59.446 And I am. Yeah. And it ended up being whatever four times 24 is. 00:32:59.886 --> 00:33:03.866 Yeah. Great. With my mom, right? Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. 00:33:04.446 --> 00:33:10.926 Wow. I really appreciate that. And I think that so often we have those experiences in our life. 00:33:11.226 --> 00:33:17.206 And sometimes we just don't take a moment to just really sit and feel it and to experience it. 00:33:17.426 --> 00:33:20.766 Like, you know, and I appreciate that you're writing things down. 00:33:21.086 --> 00:33:26.166 You're taking notes. You're really doing your part so you don't forget these 00:33:26.166 --> 00:33:27.806 things because I think these are really important. 00:33:27.966 --> 00:33:32.206 There's things that I wish that I had written down about, you know, 00:33:32.286 --> 00:33:36.986 whether it's experiences with my dad or when I was going through some experiences. 00:33:36.986 --> 00:33:39.266 I just, it's just a lot of memory. 00:33:39.626 --> 00:33:43.886 And how often does that memory shift and change? 00:33:44.046 --> 00:33:49.866 Oh, and I would say pretty much all the time. And so it's like you have an experience 00:33:49.866 --> 00:33:53.966 and then the next time you tell it, all of a sudden there's something new or 00:33:53.966 --> 00:33:57.766 improved or who knows what it really is today. I don't know. 00:33:58.166 --> 00:34:01.366 So I was thinking that the other day when I was talking to Jeff and I was just 00:34:01.366 --> 00:34:04.126 saying, gosh, I was talking about an experience. I'm like, gosh, 00:34:04.126 --> 00:34:05.326 I wonder if that even happened. 00:34:05.926 --> 00:34:11.606 Yeah, for real. I wonder if how much of this is even real. This happened so, 00:34:12.026 --> 00:34:16.886 you know, when I was a child and just as a child and looking through a different 00:34:16.886 --> 00:34:20.606 lens and having such a childlike perspective. 00:34:21.186 --> 00:34:25.326 Yeah. And then you kind of grow up and you kind of, it's just interesting now 00:34:25.326 --> 00:34:28.046 to look back and go, gosh, I wonder how much is real. 00:34:28.366 --> 00:34:32.766 I mean, it feels real. You think it's real. Well, that's exactly. I don't know. 00:34:32.966 --> 00:34:37.746 Yeah. I have to tell you, there was a director that I was listening to a podcast 00:34:37.746 --> 00:34:41.426 and it was a movie and it was a military or like a war movie. 00:34:41.846 --> 00:34:45.866 And the director had some really, really interesting things about memory that 00:34:45.866 --> 00:34:48.966 I had to stop on this walk and jot these down. 00:34:49.888 --> 00:34:55.848 Okay. So he said, I love this. Memory is open to the passage of time and stress and trauma. 00:34:56.088 --> 00:34:59.488 And so then I added in there and a need for validation and a fear of abandonment. 00:34:59.908 --> 00:35:03.248 And so, and I wrote this note down of my first client experiences. 00:35:03.248 --> 00:35:07.248 I don't even remember because I was in my own head so much because I was, I was afraid. 00:35:07.748 --> 00:35:12.148 And then he said, memory is more reliable on what I felt because we don't have 00:35:12.148 --> 00:35:16.108 video, but we have snapshots and then we're filling in the gaps. And I love that. 00:35:16.188 --> 00:35:20.168 So it's about what you felt. and then these snapshots of what happened and then 00:35:20.168 --> 00:35:24.488 you fill in the gaps with with the emotions and and then it does it changes 00:35:24.488 --> 00:35:29.028 that entire and that entire memory so fascinating and if you've had a negative 00:35:29.028 --> 00:35:32.748 experience what are you going to fill it in with not positive wonderful. 00:35:33.688 --> 00:35:38.328 Memories they're going to be negative so yeah even if it was positive, 00:35:39.048 --> 00:35:42.168 absolutely one that's that's that concept where even in twin studies 00:35:42.168 --> 00:35:45.068 i mean two twins can have the same input and 00:35:45.068 --> 00:35:47.848 then have completely different output because of whatever they were feeling or 00:35:47.848 --> 00:35:51.148 thinking or interpreting or their own lens yeah it's 00:35:51.148 --> 00:35:54.828 just so fascinating that is so fascinating yeah so 00:35:54.828 --> 00:35:58.508 you were just talking about your secondary emotion which 00:35:58.508 --> 00:36:08.348 yeah is what humor right yeah did you find yourself during this time i know 00:36:08.348 --> 00:36:15.328 i know you i've known you for several years now and when When things have even been stressed, 00:36:15.568 --> 00:36:19.888 when you felt stressed or, you know, you're going through a challenge or difficulty, 00:36:19.888 --> 00:36:21.868 you always do reach for humor. 00:36:22.368 --> 00:36:27.988 And I love that. And I appreciate that. I'm like, I reach for the positive. Yeah, you do. 00:36:29.848 --> 00:36:33.948 But did you find when you were going through this experience, 00:36:33.948 --> 00:36:36.988 and I know you just mentioned that you did reach for humor, was there anything 00:36:36.988 --> 00:36:38.128 else that came up for you? 00:36:38.368 --> 00:36:42.288 I mean, like, did you try to distract yourself? Did you look for more logical 00:36:42.288 --> 00:36:46.928 things that you needed to grab hold of? Was there anything different that came up? 00:36:47.868 --> 00:36:52.448 Yeah, I really like your question. And I'll say first what was interesting about 00:36:52.448 --> 00:36:55.388 humor, and then I'll tell you what I did that I found myself looking at differently. 00:36:55.588 --> 00:37:02.568 But the concept of differentiation, of holding on to myself when I'm interacting 00:37:02.568 --> 00:37:06.988 with others or when I felt like there was pressure to be a certain way or a 00:37:06.988 --> 00:37:09.248 different way, that that was a big challenge. 00:37:09.248 --> 00:37:12.888 Cause I would find myself wanting to tell a joke and then, and I would notice, 00:37:13.028 --> 00:37:16.128 oh, I'm a little worried that someone might think this about me, 00:37:16.148 --> 00:37:20.328 but then I've been doing a lot of content on my episodes lately about emotional maturity. 00:37:20.488 --> 00:37:23.428 And there's one of the concepts there where it's like, I'm worried this person 00:37:23.428 --> 00:37:26.748 will think this, but I need to let them think whatever they're going to think. 00:37:26.868 --> 00:37:28.128 And I'm going to do, I'm going to be. 00:37:28.368 --> 00:37:32.288 And so I would on occasion, I can't, I wish I could pull a good example of this 00:37:32.288 --> 00:37:35.528 right now, but I would say something that I said, because that's what I say. 00:37:35.528 --> 00:37:40.408 And I would be aware that someone may take it a certain way but that was okay. 00:37:40.408 --> 00:37:45.528 That was something that was a them thing and it didn't always go great because 00:37:45.528 --> 00:37:47.208 sometimes I get a couple of looks. 00:37:47.971 --> 00:37:51.431 Because there might be a nurse in the room and I'm saying something pretty funny 00:37:51.431 --> 00:37:56.231 because my mom's there and it's maybe somebody that's in there that they think 00:37:56.231 --> 00:37:58.591 that might be inappropriate or but that's okay. 00:37:58.911 --> 00:38:02.831 So that differentiation concept was continually being. Yeah. 00:38:03.311 --> 00:38:06.651 I love that. So where did you get your humor? Was your dad funny? 00:38:06.731 --> 00:38:08.371 Was your mom funny? Was an uncle funny? 00:38:08.511 --> 00:38:12.571 Where did this come from? Was it just a mechanism that you had to learn to just deal with life? 00:38:13.111 --> 00:38:16.991 Just curious. I've never actually thought of that because my dad is pretty funny. 00:38:17.231 --> 00:38:20.791 Okay. I didn't really, I didn't, my dad worked a lot when I was younger and 00:38:20.791 --> 00:38:26.251 I think he had a lot of stress providing and, and I don't know. 00:38:26.431 --> 00:38:29.451 I, that's a funny, that's a great question. I don't know. 00:38:29.871 --> 00:38:32.611 But I was always like class clown and that sort of thing. 00:38:33.131 --> 00:38:36.391 But it was, and I know now the, I mean, I know you know this stuff as well, 00:38:36.491 --> 00:38:37.891 but that was how I got my validation. 00:38:38.191 --> 00:38:42.271 That was how I existed was if I crack jokes, people laugh, then that meant I 00:38:42.271 --> 00:38:43.971 was there, meant I existed. 00:38:44.191 --> 00:38:46.871 Right. Did your parents laugh at your jokes? 00:38:47.591 --> 00:38:51.011 No, not so much. Yeah. Ouch. 00:38:52.371 --> 00:38:55.871 So no validation there for you. I'm sorry. No, no, no. 00:38:56.071 --> 00:38:59.031 But what I did think when you were saying, did anything else come up? 00:38:59.151 --> 00:39:04.591 I did find myself really wanting to have almost like spiritual, mystical experiences. 00:39:04.971 --> 00:39:12.771 I wanted to, I don't know, I wanted to, I wanted to feel the spirit in the room 00:39:12.771 --> 00:39:16.551 or I wanted to feel like I did notice that I wanted those things to happen. 00:39:17.811 --> 00:39:23.391 Yeah. And you didn't? No, no. But I mean, and that was because I will say that 00:39:23.391 --> 00:39:27.531 I work with a lot of people that are working on their faith journeys, 00:39:27.831 --> 00:39:30.131 faith deconstruction, faith crisis, you name it. 00:39:30.251 --> 00:39:33.791 And so often people will say things like, you know, I don't feel this fill in 00:39:33.791 --> 00:39:34.991 the blank burning in the bosom or whatever. 00:39:35.091 --> 00:39:37.111 And I get to work with enough people where I get to say, oh, 00:39:37.231 --> 00:39:41.251 that that isn't necessary or it's you're normal and human. 00:39:41.711 --> 00:39:46.311 But I did notice that there were, I've worked with enough people that have been 00:39:46.311 --> 00:39:50.311 through that grieving process or the someone dying and they've had a pretty, 00:39:50.531 --> 00:39:52.131 pretty profound spiritual experience. 00:39:52.591 --> 00:39:56.731 And, and what I did do was when there would be a nurse there and I love, 00:39:56.871 --> 00:39:58.531 I mean, the whole reason I do what I do is I love. 00:39:59.368 --> 00:40:03.108 How people work. And so I, whether it's a grocery store clerk and I'm going 00:40:03.108 --> 00:40:05.708 to ask them, what's your biggest sale today? Or, you know, whatever, 00:40:05.888 --> 00:40:07.188 how do you mean customers? 00:40:07.628 --> 00:40:10.628 So the hospice people, I found myself asking every one of them, 00:40:10.788 --> 00:40:14.548 Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty interesting or crazy experiences with this? 00:40:14.648 --> 00:40:18.408 And they all have. And I knew they would, cause I've had hospice workers as clients. 00:40:18.668 --> 00:40:22.428 And there were some pretty amazing stories. And it's funny because a couple 00:40:22.428 --> 00:40:26.148 of them stopped and I would joke and say, I'm a therapist. It's okay. 00:40:26.588 --> 00:40:29.028 And then they would tell some pretty, pretty wild stories. 00:40:29.668 --> 00:40:32.768 And, and so I think there was a part of me that was like, I would like one of those, please. 00:40:33.368 --> 00:40:37.888 Yeah. Order out. Yep. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if that's the way it works. 00:40:38.008 --> 00:40:39.068 Right. I don't, apparently. 00:40:39.408 --> 00:40:42.148 Yeah. Yeah. Probably not, but okay. 00:40:42.508 --> 00:40:46.628 That's interesting. I appreciate that for sure. Well, and it's, I've had a, 00:40:46.848 --> 00:40:51.148 I still remember the first funeral director client I had, and I had to ask them, 00:40:51.368 --> 00:40:54.368 you know, I just said, Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty wild experiences 00:40:54.368 --> 00:40:57.808 and I kind of assumed they'd say no and they were like oh yeah and then they 00:40:57.808 --> 00:41:01.148 would tell me one every time they came in and it yeah that stuff's pretty pretty 00:41:01.148 --> 00:41:08.008 amazing yeah do you feel like potentially that because you weren't experiencing 00:41:08.008 --> 00:41:09.868 that you wanted to kind of, 00:41:10.488 --> 00:41:16.368 feel that through other people that have had that experience oh trisha that's a good question. 00:41:17.408 --> 00:41:21.848 And and that question might even lead to as you were saying it actually what 00:41:21.848 --> 00:41:25.788 came up for me was And you and I talked off the air, maybe we'll talk about 00:41:25.788 --> 00:41:29.508 this down the road, but I probably would have loved to have had a better relationship. 00:41:29.508 --> 00:41:32.008 My mom had dealt with a lot of pain, a lot of chronic pain. 00:41:32.488 --> 00:41:37.428 And so I wonder now as we're talking, maybe there's a part of me that wanted 00:41:37.428 --> 00:41:41.668 to have, if I couldn't have had necessarily the in-person connection, 00:41:41.668 --> 00:41:45.108 that maybe I wanted this spiritual connection there. 00:41:45.108 --> 00:41:50.028 And maybe that was me subconsciously saying, okay, or no, it was literally consciously, 00:41:50.068 --> 00:41:54.408 but thinking, okay, if I could have this big experience going out, 00:41:54.688 --> 00:41:56.908 then it will all make sense. 00:41:57.388 --> 00:41:59.828 And there I am wanting to make sense of things, maybe. 00:42:00.468 --> 00:42:03.248 Yeah. That logical part of your brain coming out. Yeah. Yeah. 00:42:03.748 --> 00:42:06.108 Right. I like that. That's very good. 00:42:07.047 --> 00:42:11.447 Did anything catch you off guard emotionally? You know, something that felt 00:42:11.447 --> 00:42:13.067 small, but really hit hard. 00:42:13.967 --> 00:42:18.487 Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, there's, and I know that we are, 00:42:18.607 --> 00:42:20.587 our audience are all adult human beings. 00:42:20.807 --> 00:42:24.327 So that, but that part of me is like, oh, I don't want to say anything that would make anybody sad. 00:42:24.487 --> 00:42:29.587 But that concept of, I'd heard of the death rattle where the breathing that 00:42:29.587 --> 00:42:35.147 people will often get where, and that was a little rough to hear because I had 00:42:35.147 --> 00:42:37.027 heard so much about it from other clients. 00:42:37.047 --> 00:42:40.007 And they would just say, and then, you know, they experienced the death rattle. 00:42:40.207 --> 00:42:43.787 And so I'd heard about it. But that was one of those where being in the room 00:42:43.787 --> 00:42:48.387 and hearing the way that her breathing became really labored and knowing that 00:42:48.387 --> 00:42:51.967 there wasn't a lot they could do. They ended up moving her a little bit. 00:42:52.127 --> 00:42:55.327 And it did address that to the point where actually for the last day, 00:42:55.467 --> 00:42:57.107 it sounded like she was literally snoring. 00:42:57.127 --> 00:43:01.227 So that was fine because then I could make jokes about that in my head. 00:43:01.227 --> 00:43:04.747 But there when i first heard the before it 00:43:04.747 --> 00:43:07.487 was sounding like snoring that one it is wild to 00:43:07.487 --> 00:43:10.307 think of that just brought up some emotion and i and 00:43:10.307 --> 00:43:13.507 that one i i wasn't sure i don't know i don't i don't think i would have really 00:43:13.507 --> 00:43:16.787 enjoyed that if that would have gone on for another couple of days which it 00:43:16.787 --> 00:43:20.427 would have if they hadn't have been able to position her a way that she was 00:43:20.427 --> 00:43:24.487 sounding like she was snoring so that was that was pretty yeah that was tough 00:43:24.487 --> 00:43:29.587 i remember that and i think that There's some reality of, 00:43:29.747 --> 00:43:33.627 you know, it's close, you know, it's imminent. 00:43:33.827 --> 00:43:37.707 And it's like, sometimes when you have that experience and there's other things 00:43:37.707 --> 00:43:42.927 happening, just like the snoring or just sometimes they kind of talk or they do certain things. 00:43:43.147 --> 00:43:46.207 It's okay. That's here we are. We're still here. 00:43:46.607 --> 00:43:48.487 But then there's, it's more finite. 00:43:48.967 --> 00:43:53.867 It's more like, here we are. This is, like I said earlier, this is in real time. 00:43:54.047 --> 00:44:00.767 This is happening now. And I don't know how much longer that's going to get real. Yeah. 00:44:01.287 --> 00:44:04.347 Yeah. No, you're right. And I will say this is so cliched. 00:44:04.887 --> 00:44:09.287 I know that there's no, I've said a lot with clients, there's no right way to 00:44:09.287 --> 00:44:12.687 grieve. We're all going to grieve in the way that we do. And I love that concept. 00:44:13.067 --> 00:44:16.947 The other cliche that I thought about often was that you hear that we don't 00:44:16.947 --> 00:44:18.647 do death well in our country. 00:44:19.247 --> 00:44:22.747 And because we're, I don't know, we're like doing everything we can to stave 00:44:22.747 --> 00:44:24.507 off death. We don't like to talk about death. 00:44:25.367 --> 00:44:30.507 And I understood that more because as I was there, there was, 00:44:30.627 --> 00:44:33.987 and I think the hospice people, and I'm going to have one of them on my podcast 00:44:33.987 --> 00:44:35.587 soon because I want to talk more about that. 00:44:35.807 --> 00:44:41.267 But it was like, I could also see that it could also be a beautiful thing, a transition. 00:44:41.807 --> 00:44:45.787 You know, we spent these few days and I wrote a post on Facebook that I might 00:44:45.787 --> 00:44:47.527 want to share a tiny bit with you about. 00:44:47.627 --> 00:44:50.487 Sure. Of what I really, okay, let me pull that up real quick here. 00:44:50.587 --> 00:44:55.547 But I think that there were things that I was glad to be there and experience, 00:44:56.147 --> 00:45:00.907 but that I also, yeah, maybe this would help somebody to know that. 00:45:01.511 --> 00:45:04.571 That it will be uncomfortable it can be awkward it 00:45:04.571 --> 00:45:07.371 can also be funny and it can be sad and you know this part 00:45:07.371 --> 00:45:10.531 of that you can have a whole lot of different emotions at once right so 00:45:10.531 --> 00:45:13.351 i just said rest in peace mom and i said i'm grateful that wendy and i were 00:45:13.351 --> 00:45:16.471 able to be there with my dad right up to the end and i said i always thought 00:45:16.471 --> 00:45:19.911 of my dad as determined and stoic successful in business and his hobbies but 00:45:19.911 --> 00:45:22.931 as my mom transitioned from the icu to hospice i got to witness another side 00:45:22.931 --> 00:45:26.531 of him he was his quiet dedication to her his tender care through some of the 00:45:26.531 --> 00:45:28.731 most difficult and demanding days of their 58 years together. 00:45:29.211 --> 00:45:32.291 And I said, mom continued to be mom, meaning she was going to go when she was 00:45:32.291 --> 00:45:33.871 good and ready and not a minute sooner. 00:45:34.171 --> 00:45:38.851 And that left Wendy, my dad and me with a lot of time bedside for four days before she passed. 00:45:38.991 --> 00:45:40.231 She was incoherent throughout that 00:45:40.231 --> 00:45:44.491 time, but a hospice worker said that hearing was the last sense to go. 00:45:44.611 --> 00:45:48.291 So she encouraged us to talk to my mom, share stories, play music she liked. 00:45:48.411 --> 00:45:51.311 And that ended up being the advice that I thought was amazing. 00:45:51.551 --> 00:45:54.391 So I said, over those four days, I got to know both my parents better than I 00:45:54.391 --> 00:45:57.751 ever had. We shared memories from their childhoods, high school years, decades of marriage. 00:45:58.111 --> 00:46:00.551 And while we were told that based on her condition and vital signs, 00:46:00.691 --> 00:46:03.891 she could pass in any minute, she had other plans. And so a lot of those minutes 00:46:03.891 --> 00:46:05.831 brought a lot of emotions and a lot I didn't expect. 00:46:06.631 --> 00:46:10.631 And so I put here at the end, I said, now I can't help wondering if she was 00:46:10.631 --> 00:46:14.011 hanging on so that I could have those days with my dad to see the strength in 00:46:14.011 --> 00:46:17.631 his tenderness and realize that moving forward, it's him and me and then his 00:46:17.631 --> 00:46:18.851 grandkids and a great grandson. 00:46:19.111 --> 00:46:23.071 So then I looked at that whole experience then of, okay, I never would have 00:46:23.071 --> 00:46:26.151 had that experience if she had not hung on. 00:46:26.711 --> 00:46:30.591 And so that was pretty tender. And because I had a brother die 30 years ago, 00:46:30.631 --> 00:46:32.191 so I've been the only kid for a long time. 00:46:32.651 --> 00:46:36.691 And now it's just my dad and I, he's actually going to move down to Arizona with us. 00:46:36.931 --> 00:46:41.251 And that was just, that was, I won't, I treasure those three or four days where 00:46:41.251 --> 00:46:42.451 we were just there bedside. 00:46:43.408 --> 00:46:47.628 Well, see, and I love that. I love that you, and I remember reading that, 00:46:47.848 --> 00:46:52.588 you told that, and I just thought that was so tender, especially the last part 00:46:52.588 --> 00:46:57.868 when you mentioned how you felt like that was, this was an experience that you 00:46:57.868 --> 00:46:59.468 got to enjoy with your dad. 00:46:59.948 --> 00:47:04.888 And maybe that's why she held on longer and how you were able to look at that 00:47:04.888 --> 00:47:06.408 in such a different light. 00:47:06.788 --> 00:47:13.088 And I think that that's what this journey is about, is how are you looking at life? What is it? 00:47:13.408 --> 00:47:15.628 What does this look like for you on this end? 00:47:16.348 --> 00:47:21.568 So how's your dad doing? How's he doing now? I think really well. I think really well. 00:47:22.168 --> 00:47:27.048 Yeah, he's, I mean, he misses her in 58 years. That's a long time. 00:47:27.748 --> 00:47:32.808 Long time. But I'm really glad that he's going to move down with us. 00:47:32.908 --> 00:47:37.288 And so there's this part where I want to have a relationship with him because 00:47:37.288 --> 00:47:41.268 that's something that he and I haven't necessarily had as much of just because 00:47:41.268 --> 00:47:45.848 of, I don't know, but all kinds of different circumstances. So I'm looking forward to that. 00:47:46.468 --> 00:47:50.448 Yeah. Well, good. I think that that is fantastic. That's, and that's where he 00:47:50.448 --> 00:47:52.848 should be. He should be with you and your family. Yeah. 00:47:54.088 --> 00:47:59.308 So I remember when your daughter went through a really bad car accident. 00:47:59.488 --> 00:48:00.448 I thought about this too. 00:48:00.688 --> 00:48:06.788 Yeah. And you had mentioned how, you know, you help so many people deal with 00:48:06.788 --> 00:48:11.408 their emotions and just moving through them and walk through their grief. 00:48:12.350 --> 00:48:16.670 And I remember how much that changed you because you were on the other side, 00:48:16.870 --> 00:48:21.750 you're on the couch and how you're able to see through such, 00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:26.230 have a different perspective on when somebody is struggling like that. 00:48:26.490 --> 00:48:35.270 So how has being in this yourself deepened your understanding of compassion and empathy? 00:48:35.950 --> 00:48:40.930 Yeah, first of all, I feel very grateful that you remember that because that 00:48:40.930 --> 00:48:42.390 was a game changer for me. 00:48:42.590 --> 00:48:46.530 And I would talk often about the ACT principle that I love of, 00:48:46.650 --> 00:48:48.450 oh, I'm noticing my emotions. 00:48:48.830 --> 00:48:52.770 They are there. I'm not trying to push them away. And I'm inviting them to come with me. 00:48:52.810 --> 00:48:56.970 And I made it sound like it was just so easy to do. And then when those emotions 00:48:56.970 --> 00:49:01.670 were crushing and I didn't want to get out of bed, then I was like, 00:49:01.770 --> 00:49:04.230 oh, man, I need to go back and redo all those podcasts. 00:49:04.690 --> 00:49:08.070 It's like, hey, hey, those are OK. All right. The times where you can invite 00:49:08.070 --> 00:49:09.430 them with you and you eat a whole 00:49:09.430 --> 00:49:12.890 bag of Reese's and don't exercise for a couple of days, you know that. 00:49:13.050 --> 00:49:16.390 OK, I get it now. So I thought about that often as this was happening. 00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:19.810 And it really was more of the, okay, yeah, what am I going to learn? 00:49:20.130 --> 00:49:24.010 What's my experience going to be? And I thought about, I wondered, 00:49:24.210 --> 00:49:27.570 would the experience with Alex, because I think that was four years ago, 00:49:27.750 --> 00:49:29.090 maybe four or five years ago. 00:49:29.510 --> 00:49:33.770 I wonder if that would have been different. But then it got to the circular logic. 00:49:33.970 --> 00:49:37.510 Because of that experience, I did a whole lot. I went on a deep dive for the 00:49:37.510 --> 00:49:40.650 next couple of years of really understanding emotions. Even as a therapist, 00:49:40.810 --> 00:49:43.770 I feel like I should have probably had a better relationship with emotions before then. 00:49:43.990 --> 00:49:47.790 But then it's been really learning where they are at, what they're trying to 00:49:47.790 --> 00:49:51.810 tell me, inviting them in. They've been messengers since childhood. I've shoved them down. 00:49:51.990 --> 00:49:56.730 I'm the adult. So I think that whole experience led me on this journey to figure out the emotions. 00:49:56.970 --> 00:50:01.450 So then sitting there with my mom, I think that's what helped me be that much 00:50:01.450 --> 00:50:05.030 more aware of the emotions. So I love that you asked that because I've thought 00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:07.510 about this because let's say that that hadn't happened with Alex. 00:50:07.870 --> 00:50:10.930 I would imagine this probably would have been the experience where then I would 00:50:10.930 --> 00:50:14.810 have had the, oh, man, that's not so easy to just say, here they are. 00:50:14.950 --> 00:50:16.510 Here's emotions. Invite them to come with me. 00:50:16.710 --> 00:50:21.550 So because of that experience, I think I was able to really experience this 00:50:21.550 --> 00:50:25.750 event and all the emotions and sit with them and thank them and acknowledge 00:50:25.750 --> 00:50:29.710 what were they trying to tell me versus just, oh, wow, I actually have them. 00:50:29.710 --> 00:50:32.730 So this is your first time yeah i think 00:50:32.730 --> 00:50:35.650 that that is i really really appreciate that 00:50:35.650 --> 00:50:38.990 because i think so often we always think how come 00:50:38.990 --> 00:50:43.890 i haven't experienced this before or how come whatever it might be and i think 00:50:43.890 --> 00:50:48.990 because you weren't ready that wasn't when you're in a place that you're ready 00:50:48.990 --> 00:50:54.410 and you're you're receptive and accepting of what's coming and you can handle 00:50:54.410 --> 00:50:57.770 things in a way that you can teach, you can learn, you can grow. 00:50:58.330 --> 00:51:02.890 And now look where you've taken it to the next level with this experience with 00:51:02.890 --> 00:51:05.230 your mom. So I think it's so good. 00:51:05.923 --> 00:51:10.443 Yeah. And I have been saying lately, too, that, you know, when we didn't know 00:51:10.443 --> 00:51:13.103 what we didn't know, then, of course, we didn't know it. 00:51:13.303 --> 00:51:16.243 And then you learn something new and it's you learned it because you didn't 00:51:16.243 --> 00:51:18.483 know it before. I'm going to sound a little nerdy here for a second. 00:51:18.803 --> 00:51:21.883 So then at some point, though, then, well, that means then there's lots of other 00:51:21.883 --> 00:51:24.863 things that I don't know. And so I can't wait to learn them as well. 00:51:25.083 --> 00:51:28.943 And it does leave me more kind of genuinely curious about the future. 00:51:29.223 --> 00:51:33.443 So not that I want to have all the the challenging experiences, 00:51:33.723 --> 00:51:35.843 but I know I'm very confident now. 00:51:35.923 --> 00:51:39.323 Though, that I will make it through them and I can learn something from them. 00:51:39.543 --> 00:51:43.723 And I can, you know, really believe that apparently all these things truly will be for my good. 00:51:43.903 --> 00:51:47.003 When before it's like, really, this is going to be for my good, 00:51:47.123 --> 00:51:50.043 but now, okay, I believe it. Right. Exactly. 00:51:50.203 --> 00:51:53.763 So now I can believe it. And it doesn't mean that it's going to feel great all 00:51:53.763 --> 00:51:56.883 the time, but I have confidence now that overall, all right, 00:51:56.923 --> 00:51:59.123 this will be for my good. I'm pretty confident. 00:51:59.543 --> 00:52:06.583 I think that's so good. And going along with what is good for you, 00:52:06.843 --> 00:52:14.683 when people would ask you what they could do to help you or let me know if you need anything. Yeah. 00:52:15.123 --> 00:52:19.823 How hard was that? Yeah. I think people are definitely genuine, 00:52:19.823 --> 00:52:24.303 but there's also this space of they have no idea what to do. 00:52:24.903 --> 00:52:29.543 Totally. So when people reached out, was there something more meaningful? 00:52:30.403 --> 00:52:34.163 What actually helped you okay trisha it's 00:52:34.163 --> 00:52:37.183 so good we haven't talked in a while it's so good to be back and i your questions 00:52:37.183 --> 00:52:40.043 are so good because i thought about this one a lot and it 00:52:40.043 --> 00:52:45.403 does go back to the when somebody says oh i'm so sorry sometimes i do and i'm 00:52:45.403 --> 00:52:49.723 not i'm saying bless everyone's heart and they all mean well but i do know that 00:52:49.723 --> 00:52:53.763 sometimes i've said that because i'm like oh well man hey i'm so sorry and i'm 00:52:53.763 --> 00:52:57.563 almost like calling it drive-by validation like you know hey so sorry and I 00:52:57.563 --> 00:52:59.743 feel better. I did a good thing. I told them I'm sorry. 00:53:00.263 --> 00:53:03.643 But I'm not really thinking about what that person maybe needs. 00:53:03.703 --> 00:53:07.883 So I have tried to be so much more genuine about and you send a nice text to 00:53:07.883 --> 00:53:09.743 them. Hey, how are you? Because it's, oh, okay. 00:53:10.163 --> 00:53:14.223 Sorry for your loss sounds, it's the right thing. But, 00:53:14.925 --> 00:53:17.925 I don't know. How are you? But even then, I want to be like, 00:53:18.025 --> 00:53:21.385 I'm fine. So I've had a couple of people. Yeah, right? 00:53:22.225 --> 00:53:25.805 I was genuine with you. It was funny. One of my clients I talked to this morning, 00:53:25.945 --> 00:53:29.505 I hadn't talked to since, and he had texted me. He's like, man, that really sucks. 00:53:29.885 --> 00:53:33.625 And I told him, hey, that was actually spot on. That was like. 00:53:34.305 --> 00:53:38.085 Yeah, that's really hard. Or that must have been a bummer or something. 00:53:38.245 --> 00:53:39.985 And I was like, oh, that was. Yeah, it really was. 00:53:40.245 --> 00:53:44.365 And it was really interesting. And I still remember I had just started grad 00:53:44.365 --> 00:53:46.865 school. So we're talking 20 something years ago. 00:53:47.165 --> 00:53:53.785 And my neighbor, one of my neighbor, his wife had passed away and just like the day or two before. 00:53:54.025 --> 00:53:57.285 And it was like, I just remember we were almost all like out and we saw him 00:53:57.285 --> 00:54:00.465 and everybody was like, Hey, I'm so sorry. Let me know if there's anything I can do. 00:54:00.625 --> 00:54:04.405 And I had just started grad school. So of course I'm a full fledged therapist in my mind. 00:54:04.405 --> 00:54:07.205 But thankfully the professor had said 00:54:07.205 --> 00:54:11.805 something about ask them what that's or how they are feeling and man it was 00:54:11.805 --> 00:54:15.645 so awkward but i did and i just went to him and i just said hey what is what 00:54:15.645 --> 00:54:19.385 have the last couple of days been like and he just broke down he's like oh they've 00:54:19.385 --> 00:54:23.065 been so hard and i've done this and i can't believe you know and i was like 00:54:23.065 --> 00:54:25.285 oh that almost like that works that. 00:54:25.885 --> 00:54:28.725 You know instead of me just going like hey i'm so sorry for your loss i 00:54:28.725 --> 00:54:32.325 mean if there's anything i can do because that just again great 00:54:32.325 --> 00:54:35.005 words right but i don't think 00:54:35.005 --> 00:54:38.805 that person is going to tell me that they need anything right 00:54:38.805 --> 00:54:45.725 so what would you say to someone that is in the middle of a loss or they're 00:54:45.725 --> 00:54:54.265 grieving that could be helpful for them to have those actions those words or 00:54:54.265 --> 00:54:56.105 Or how can they reach out to them? 00:54:56.445 --> 00:55:01.565 Both sides. How could the person, what do you think that they could share with 00:55:01.565 --> 00:55:08.005 people that are asking? And what do you think the person that is asking, what can they say? 00:55:08.930 --> 00:55:12.310 Yeah. Okay. I grabbed, I interviewed the author of this book a little, 00:55:12.390 --> 00:55:15.070 it's a kid's book on grief. It's Ashley Boisson. 00:55:15.350 --> 00:55:19.210 She's amazing. And this is a one day, a child's journey through grief and loss. 00:55:19.390 --> 00:55:23.970 And she was on, Ashley's such an amazing person, but she was on Dateline. 00:55:24.170 --> 00:55:25.450 Her husband had been murdered. 00:55:25.970 --> 00:55:30.390 And, but I mean, the story, and she tells it, but the murdered by her affair 00:55:30.390 --> 00:55:32.970 partner's husband. So that's why it made it a children's story. 00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:37.370 Yeah, exactly. But that part isn't in the book. 00:55:37.610 --> 00:55:40.870 But when I interviewed her, though, she had such a good point about this. 00:55:40.970 --> 00:55:43.750 And I thought about where she was just saying that somebody would say, 00:55:43.890 --> 00:55:45.810 hey, tell me about your mom. 00:55:45.990 --> 00:55:49.390 Or she was like to kids. I was like, oh, man, tell me what you remember about your dad. 00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:53.630 Or what was his name? So people want to talk about it. 00:55:53.770 --> 00:55:57.470 I think if someone would have even said something like, tell me a funny story 00:55:57.470 --> 00:55:59.590 about the last few days. Oh, then I'm in. 00:55:59.790 --> 00:56:03.830 Oh, I've got funny stories. I've got one that I don't know if I can truthfully 00:56:03.830 --> 00:56:07.550 tell legally, but it's so funny. Oh my gosh. 00:56:08.290 --> 00:56:14.450 But for me, it is like, hey, anything crazy happen or anything that you didn't expect. 00:56:14.610 --> 00:56:17.650 That's why I think this interview has been so fun because it's just, 00:56:17.790 --> 00:56:21.490 oh, it's like telling stories about things because I like those because I know 00:56:21.490 --> 00:56:23.890 we like to be heard and understood. 00:56:24.250 --> 00:56:26.710 And so when somebody is just like, I'm so sorry and let me know if I can do 00:56:26.710 --> 00:56:30.410 anything again, it's okay. I appreciate it. That is a human interaction. 00:56:31.490 --> 00:56:34.650 But, man, what's that been like? Then I'm in. I'm on board. 00:56:35.270 --> 00:56:39.150 Which is also hard because as a therapist, I don't, I've also thought recently, 00:56:39.310 --> 00:56:41.390 did I get into this so that I don't have to talk about myself? 00:56:41.590 --> 00:56:44.590 Maybe that's it. Because then, you know, when somebody turns it around on me, 00:56:44.810 --> 00:56:47.030 well, no, that's not what you're doing. You're paying so I can ask you questions. 00:56:47.270 --> 00:56:50.790 You know, so it is still kind of funny. Right. Exactly. 00:56:51.990 --> 00:56:55.950 We could go on and on. This has been so. Sorry to be so vulnerable, 00:56:56.110 --> 00:56:57.750 but I have a client at three and a half to go to the bathroom. 00:56:57.930 --> 00:57:00.970 Oh, I know. And that's so rude. but I just 00:57:00.970 --> 00:57:04.010 so fun no I do I just appreciate your time here 00:57:04.010 --> 00:57:07.490 and I appreciate that there's something 00:57:07.490 --> 00:57:11.410 about the beauty of grief because it 00:57:11.410 --> 00:57:16.730 doesn't ask for permission but it also leaves us with a deeper sense of presence 00:57:16.730 --> 00:57:22.110 and I think that's the important part is we just need to be present for one 00:57:22.110 --> 00:57:27.170 another we need to focus on when there is loss when things feel strange and 00:57:27.170 --> 00:57:30.970 funny or there's sweet human moments or whatever it is, 00:57:31.150 --> 00:57:34.390 what can we do? We don't want to make things awkward. 00:57:34.590 --> 00:57:37.550 We want to be able to reach out. We want to, and I think of one of the things 00:57:37.550 --> 00:57:43.870 that might be helpful is maybe send a text, a sweet moment that maybe if you 00:57:43.870 --> 00:57:45.570 knew the person that you could share. 00:57:46.335 --> 00:57:49.735 I think that those things are meaningful. And I remember when I'd get cards 00:57:49.735 --> 00:57:53.615 for my dad and they would send a little bit of a, I remember when. 00:57:53.995 --> 00:58:00.535 And that actually was really helpful because I appreciated how people perceive 00:58:00.535 --> 00:58:04.415 my dad and just some stories that were really important to me. 00:58:04.515 --> 00:58:06.035 And I still think about them. 00:58:06.635 --> 00:58:11.515 So I think that those things are going to be, I just wonder just in my situation, 00:58:11.775 --> 00:58:13.095 how that could be more helpful. 00:58:13.695 --> 00:58:17.835 And I think everybody wants to say, I'm sorry, but sometimes those words are 00:58:17.835 --> 00:58:19.555 just, what do they really mean? 00:58:19.695 --> 00:58:22.215 But it's like, what else do you say? No, it's true. 00:58:22.475 --> 00:58:26.335 I'm sharing my condolences, whatever it may be, but it's, I remember when. 00:58:27.535 --> 00:58:31.035 And I think that we just went to a funeral just a few minutes ago and I know 00:58:31.035 --> 00:58:34.375 you need to go. But it was just such a celebration of life. 00:58:34.535 --> 00:58:39.455 And that's all they brought up or all the memories of what they experienced with this person. 00:58:39.775 --> 00:58:45.315 And they were beautiful and funny and happy. And it wasn't this depressing. 00:58:45.635 --> 00:58:50.175 Oh, my gosh, this is awful. It was a wonderful experience. I like what you said, 00:58:50.195 --> 00:58:51.975 though, about the grief not asking for permission. 00:58:52.235 --> 00:58:56.955 That really hit because it's like, yeah, nobody said, hey, when's a good time 00:58:56.955 --> 00:58:58.855 for your mom to pass away if you need to get in here? 00:58:59.015 --> 00:59:02.355 Because, you know, in that one, I might even take that one from you. 00:59:02.675 --> 00:59:06.875 Yeah, like I always say, Tricia, wait, what do I say? Grief doesn't ask for permission. 00:59:07.515 --> 00:59:10.195 Yeah, that's what I always say. yeah grief doesn't ask 00:59:10.195 --> 00:59:13.235 for permission yeah and i love it i have 00:59:13.235 --> 00:59:17.795 to think about what i said i don't even that's good it was really good yeah 00:59:17.795 --> 00:59:21.615 i have to go back and listen to the recording i'll put that in the show notes 00:59:21.615 --> 00:59:25.355 for you how's that okay thank you all right trisha always always a pleasure 00:59:25.355 --> 00:59:28.915 we'll see you in a couple of weeks i can't wait to be back together all right 00:59:28.915 --> 00:59:31.995 thank you so much have a great day we're thinking of you. 00:59:33.680 --> 01:00:10.514 Music.