WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome to the virtual couch.

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I am your host, Tony Overbay.

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And, , , as a therapist, I've got
tissues, two boxes flanking the

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couch that is right in front of me.

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, But I'm sitting down so why actually take.

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, Five seconds to go get one of
those when I could root around in

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my bag for five minutes trying to
find what eventually turned out to

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be a paper towel to blow my nose.

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, Did I already say I'm
your host, Tony Overbay?

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I'm a licensed marriage and family
therapist , I'm not your therapist.

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Although, to be fair, I
actually am a lot of therapist.

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Therapist with, technically
I might be your therapist.

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Therapist, but either way.

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Everything I share here is for
informational and maybe a little bit

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of entertainment purposes only I, this
is not a substitute for professional

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care or diagnosis or treatment, , I
am here to share, not to diagnose.

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So please find a good therapist.

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'cause that is what matters most.

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That is going to be something that
I think I'm gonna say repeatedly.

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But today I wanna start with a question.

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Would you rather be liked or would
you rather be true to yourself?

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Now, if you answer immediately,
I would rather be true to myself.

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What if being true to yourself
could cost you something big?

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Like your job, your marriage, your
faith community, . Your financial

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security, your kids, because I think
we often tell ourselves, I'm sure

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I would do the right thing just
because that's the right thing to do.

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But when we're actually in a moment,
suddenly there are other factors in

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play that we maybe didn't anticipate.

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, Belonging, financial security, the
weight of family expectations or

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even the, the dread of disappointing
people that we respect, which we

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may not give enough credit for.

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But I do work with a lot of
people pleasers and I think I am a

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recovering people, pleaser myself.

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So that's the heart of
today's conversation.

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We are going to explore the difference
between two of my favorite things,

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character and integrity, and how
they overlap and how they differ,

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and why it matters in some of
life's most high charged arenas.

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A couple of weeks ago, I introduced
the concept of five high charged

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areas that people bring into
the couple's therapist realm.

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We're talking about religion,
marriage, parenting, sex, and politics.

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We're gonna hit on at least four outta
those five today, and we're gonna take

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a look at what it means to move from
being known for your character, which

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can be a great thing to actually then
living with integrity, even when the

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pressure's on, and the cost is very real.

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And just a quick heads up before we
get started at the end of today's

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episode, I am going to guide
you through a short meditation.

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To help you connect with your values
and build the kind of integrity

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that we'll be talking about today.

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And also share how you can get a
one page cheat sheet of this episode

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along with my values exercise, which
is, it's a really simple, but I think

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it's a powerful tool to help you
start discovering who you truly are.

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Because if you really don't know
what your values are, and again,

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values and we'll probably talk about
that later in this episode, are not

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a destination that you achieve it.

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It isn't.

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I don't have a value of
getting a million dollars.

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A value is more of a direction,
so you'll, you can always be

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heading in a certain direction.

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And I'll make this brief.

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Come cruise with me and
my friend Julie De Jesus.

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I am not saying that the highlight
of the cruise will be me eating

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my weight in softer, but I'm, I'm
also not saying that that wouldn't

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be the highlight of the cruise.

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It's January 24th through the 29th,
2026, and I'll be joining Julie De

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Jesus, formerly known as Julie Lee.

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ICU living cruise, and we're
talking about five nights in the

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Western Caribbean aboard Royal.

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Caribbean, or is it Royal Caribbean
and the Western Caribbean.

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But we'll have creative workshops.

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We will have nightly group dinners
and the kind of conversations that

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I think will make you feel alive.

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But we're gonna dive into topics like
mental health and emotional resilience.

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I'll be covering emotional immaturity
and maybe some emotional maturity.

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We might even start talking a little
bit about, uh, narcissistic traits

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and tendencies in relationships.

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In between you will have beaches
and buffets, maybe a lava cake or

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two, and to parents kids sale free.

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So you can stop googling cheap
babysitter right now, book early to

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get your special access to small group
dining and events with Julie and me.

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And details are at julie
deus.com/cruise or I'll have

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those in the show notes today.

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. So let's get started then, shall we?

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. Character is shaped by the moral qualities
that we do show over time, and I think

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that some of today will sound like we're
talking about the same thing, and I

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think that's why it is so important to
really dig deep into what this difference

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between character and integrity.

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Character includes the traits that
we're known for dependability, kindness,

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ambition, but integrity is something
subtler, but it is so much more powerful.

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Integrity is about the harmony between
what you say you believe and then how you

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act, especially when nobody's watching.

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But I also think it's becoming more
and more prevalent to see what your

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integrity is when everybody is watching,
because it's when your actions align

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with your values, even at a cost.

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So I think you can maybe see why I've
already tried to set the table of

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if you aren't really sure what your
values are or know really who you are.

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It can be hard to operate from
a place of integrity, and that

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is not meant with any shame.

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So here are some examples, and
per usual, they are all based

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on real situations, real people.

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But the details have been changed
for the sake of confidentiality.

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So I want you to think about a daughter,
or it could be a son who decides

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mid-season that they do not wanna play
soccer anymore and they're playing

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for a competitive club soccer team.

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Now a parent driven by character
might insist that you don't quit.

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You know, we finish what we start
in this family to maintain the

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family's image of dependability.

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But a parent driven maybe more
by integrity, might recognize the

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courage it took for their daughter
to be honest and say, Hey, I'm

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proud of you for knowing yourself.

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Now let's see if we can figure
out a respectful way that you

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can step away from the team.

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That would be uncomfortable for
the dad because now he risked the

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judgment from the other parents.

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It can trigger, I think projection too.

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Maybe he personally values
teamwork and perseverance.

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Those mean a lot to him.

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So her choice feels like
it's a reflection on him.

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Now, we'll talk more today about
differentiation, but that would be

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the key here because he can hold
his discomfort and still allow

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his daughter to define who she is.

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And honestly, what would be better for
the team, A player who is disengaged

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, and they're gonna prove to everybody
that they don't want to be there.

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They're there because you don't quit.

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Or somebody that had the integrity
to say, I realize now this isn't for

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me, and I genuinely don't wanna let
you down by pretending that it is.

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That's this nuance, this fine
line or the real difference

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between character and integrity.

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Now, before I start getting emails
saying, Tony, then are you telling

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us that kids can just quit anything?

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I absolutely hear you, because I
honestly, I have my own stories

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of being pushed not to quit when
I was a kid, and sure enough that

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perseverance became a strength for me.

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There are also areas where I
genuinely resent the fact that

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I was not heard or understood.

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So I do.

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I do understand.

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To me, that's just more proof of how messy
this all is and how much more important

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it is to understand these concepts.

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'cause at some point, you a parent,
the human get to make the call.

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That's why I just love the idea of a muse.

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Now, a muse isn't the final answer.

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A muse is inspiration.

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It sparks reflection.

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So that's all I'm doing here.

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I'm sharing muses that I've gathered
through my experience as a human,

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married to another human, almost
35 years raising for other humans.

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I was gonna say little humans, but one
of them is much larger than I am because

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so much of our interaction with people is
about asking, well hey, what would you do?

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Or What do you think I should do?

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Or, let me tell you what you should do.

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And in my humble opinion, that is
the part that often misses the point.

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'cause we are all here on this earth
navigating life for the very first time.

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And I want to throw in the joke that I
like saying that typically goes over to

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a chorus of crickets of, or your second
time, depending on your belief system.

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But if you really do take nothing
else from this, I hope that you'll

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hear that it's okay to be you.

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It's okay to not know.

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It's okay to doubt and to fear
the unknown, and to desperately

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want to know what the right answer
is because we want certainty.

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Ultimately, everything does
boil down to a me issue.

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And that's actually a really
beautiful thing because it means

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the work of integrity is always
right there in front of us.

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So I have some examples again,
more that are not just, uh, in the

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sports realm, but are based off
of real examples, real situations.

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So picture, uh, an employee named Marcus.

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He works in finance now.

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Marcus is known for
his , character traits.

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He's dependable, he's likable.

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He's always the first to volunteer
for late nights and weekends.

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That's our boy Marcus.

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People describe Marcus as ambitious.

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Marcus is a team player and people
know that Marcus is gonna rise up

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the corporate ladder, but one day
Marcus's boss says, Hey, can you, uh,

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can you adjust one of these reports
to make the numbers look just a

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little more favorable for investors?

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Because I don't really like the
way that those are coming across

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now in this particular situation.

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And it, it was a bit complicated,
but it isn't necessarily illegal the

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way that he was going about doing
it, but it was definitely shady.

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Now if Marcus complies, here's the key.

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His character remains intact.

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He looks reliable.

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He keeps the boss happy.

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He's still climbing the corporate ladder.

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He's still the ambitious guy
doing what is asked of him.

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Good old Marcus.

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I can always count on him.

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Here comes integrity.

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Integrity asks something different.

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Marcus knows this report will influence
people's financial decisions and

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if he's aligned with his values and
let's say he has a value of honesty.

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Transparency, then he
can't manipulate the data.

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Now in this particular situation, he
did speak up and he risked the fallout

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and we talked about it in great detail.

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, He realized that was most likely
gonna jeopardize a promotion.

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It cost him approval, but it did keep
him aligned truly with who he is.

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Now, the difficult part there is that,
I wish I could tell you that now,

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Marcus is the CEO of the company.

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, Marcus did not get promoted for a
long period of time, and then he

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eventually left the company, but
he left with his integrity intact.

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Another example, imagine
a close friendship.

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Sarah Is known as the kind friend,
the one who always is encouraging,

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is always supportive, always
says what people want to hear.

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That's her character.

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But then her best friend starts
dating someone that Sarah can see

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is manipulative and controlling.

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And this was literally why
she came in to work with me.

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After listening to a bunch of podcasts
around emotional immaturity and

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narcissistic traits and tendencies,
she was so worried about her friend

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that she didn't know what to do.

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Now, Sarah has a choice.

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If she sticks with character,
she'll smile, nod, and wave, stay

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supportive because that's her role.

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You know, Sarah, she's,
she's always dependable.

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She's always so kind, and
she's not gonna rock the boat.

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Now integrity means that she risks
tension by saying, Hey, I care

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about you too much to stay quiet.

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Now it is a me thing, my opinion,
but something feels off here and

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I just need to really be honest.

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So character does preserve comfort,
but integrity invites conflict.

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But when it is done from truly a place
of alignment with one's values, it

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really does come from a place of love.

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Now, there is no right or wrong
answer here because I want to ask you,

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which friend would you rather have?

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The one who keeps the peace or the
one who's honest when it counts?

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Because I, I would imagine there are
plenty of us, and I might consider

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myself this at times, I would hope
that I'm moving away from this,

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but would rather have that friend
that is gonna say, you're awesome.

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They're great, because am I in a
position to take any kind of criticism,

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even if it could be for my benefit?

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And then let's do one more,
and then we're gonna get into

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the deep end of the pool today.

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Think about somebody who is deeply
involved in their faith community.

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They, they teach, they serve, they're
the model member that is their character,

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but then their child comes out as gay.

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And suddenly the community's
vibe of, Hey all are welcome.

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It doesn't quite ring
the same for this person.

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Now, if they stay quiet, they
can maintain their character.

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They can maintain their position,
they can maintain their role

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as the good, dependable church
member willing to do anything.

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For the church community.

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But if they really live with integrity
and they speak up or even step away

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to honor their values of, of love or
authenticity, then that choice may cost

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them belonging in a community that has
always felt like family, where they

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have got their validation or their
rights of passage, their social capital.

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But integrity here means they don't
sacrifice their child's dignity.

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Or what they went on to say their own soul
for the sake of appearances to make sure

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that everyone else still thought the same
of them as emotionally immature people.

00:12:35.853 --> 00:12:39.093
And I will maintain that we are all
emotionally immature until we're not.

00:12:39.123 --> 00:12:42.363
Till we go and interact with the
world and learn more about ourselves.

00:12:43.293 --> 00:12:46.413
Many of us look outside of
ourselves for validation.

00:12:46.863 --> 00:12:50.073
So what that looks like is we will tweak,
we will accommodate, and we'll even

00:12:50.073 --> 00:12:52.443
hide parts of ourselves just to fit in.

00:12:53.193 --> 00:12:58.083
But the hope is that as we mature, as
we begin to interact with the world

00:12:58.083 --> 00:13:02.403
and others, that we start to really
figure out who we are and we, we

00:13:02.403 --> 00:13:07.353
begin to act from our core values,
and that's once we realize that we're

00:13:07.353 --> 00:13:09.573
most likely unaware of what we value.

00:13:10.623 --> 00:13:13.893
When we can recognize that our current
set of values, most likely comes from

00:13:13.893 --> 00:13:18.283
our parents, our community, our church,
this is what we all believe, or to be a

00:13:18.283 --> 00:13:22.333
good member of the family or society or
the congregation, then you must believe

00:13:22.333 --> 00:13:26.593
X because, well, y that's what the other
people believe, and that's where integrity

00:13:26.593 --> 00:13:30.523
and purpose start to take root is in
recognizing what you really do believe.

00:13:31.503 --> 00:13:32.253
, Here's a key point.

00:13:32.253 --> 00:13:33.003
Do not get me wrong.

00:13:33.753 --> 00:13:38.013
You can remain and believe what
your family, your community, or your

00:13:38.013 --> 00:13:39.753
church belief that is absolutely okay.

00:13:40.053 --> 00:13:43.053
There is no part of me that
is telling anyone what they

00:13:43.053 --> 00:13:44.583
should think or feel or believe.

00:13:45.858 --> 00:13:51.138
The maturation process, though ideally
is forged from your own personal journey.

00:13:51.558 --> 00:13:55.278
'cause ultimately, you are the one that
you're gonna spend the most time with.

00:13:55.278 --> 00:13:58.518
So I promise that by understanding
who you are, that can be an incredibly

00:13:58.518 --> 00:14:02.808
powerful way to live, especially when you
actually like the version of you that's

00:14:03.078 --> 00:14:04.758
rattle around on the inside of your head.

00:14:06.263 --> 00:14:08.633
So today we're gonna look
at how that plays out across

00:14:08.633 --> 00:14:09.773
a lot of different arenas.

00:14:09.803 --> 00:14:13.313
We're gonna talk about big law, big
business, religion, and relationships.

00:14:14.063 --> 00:14:15.713
And I wanna start in the legal world now.

00:14:15.713 --> 00:14:16.193
Why?

00:14:16.493 --> 00:14:18.983
Because of an article I read
a little while back that

00:14:18.983 --> 00:14:20.573
really it's stuck in my craw.

00:14:20.633 --> 00:14:24.143
And since we're talking values,
one of mine is curiosity.

00:14:24.893 --> 00:14:26.333
So I will be right back.

00:14:26.393 --> 00:14:26.723
Okay?

00:14:26.753 --> 00:14:29.363
So I had to pause and look up
the phrase stuck in my craw.

00:14:29.843 --> 00:14:33.893
Because I have used that before and I
just thought, well, what does that mean?

00:14:33.893 --> 00:14:36.803
Right after it left my mouth, so it
turns out in the 13th century your

00:14:36.803 --> 00:14:40.313
craw referred to your throat or neck,
so stuck in your craw literally meant

00:14:40.313 --> 00:14:41.543
something that was hard to swallow.

00:14:41.753 --> 00:14:45.323
Now, over time, it became a metaphor for
something that is difficult to accept

00:14:45.683 --> 00:14:49.823
now for me, with a family tendency toward
basically like low grade choking spells.

00:14:49.823 --> 00:14:50.093
Thank you.

00:14:50.098 --> 00:14:50.538
Genetics.

00:14:50.603 --> 00:14:53.513
I am imagining now my
family will hear me saying.

00:14:54.458 --> 00:14:55.208
You gotta gimme a minute.

00:14:55.238 --> 00:14:58.148
I've got some pulled pork stuck
in my craw, but, but I digress.

00:14:58.448 --> 00:15:01.538
So let me, uh, lemme
build up the suspense.

00:15:01.538 --> 00:15:04.988
I had mentioned that there is
this article that really stuck in

00:15:05.168 --> 00:15:08.378
the aforementioned craw before I
even read the name of the article.

00:15:08.498 --> 00:15:10.918
I would love to challenge your
confirmation bias , because depending

00:15:10.918 --> 00:15:14.578
on one name in this headline, you may
already feel pulled in a particular

00:15:14.578 --> 00:15:16.288
direction, positive or negative.

00:15:16.907 --> 00:15:19.917
I would implore you to trust me
my wonderful listeners, that this

00:15:19.947 --> 00:15:21.687
episode is not about politics.

00:15:22.137 --> 00:15:24.177
It's about learning who you are.

00:15:24.717 --> 00:15:29.007
And that can fall on either end or even
in the middle of the spectrum of the

00:15:29.007 --> 00:15:32.547
political landscape and today's journey
, as hopefully you are understanding,

00:15:32.577 --> 00:15:35.637
is about integrity and character and
what that looks like when it's tested.

00:15:36.237 --> 00:15:39.207
So the article I'm talking about,
which I only realized after looking

00:15:39.207 --> 00:15:42.747
back was from three months ago, and I
would've told you it was just a couple

00:15:42.747 --> 00:15:46.887
of weeks ago, but I've thought about it
so much, is titled The Law Firms That

00:15:46.887 --> 00:15:49.047
Appease Trump and Angered their Clients.

00:15:49.467 --> 00:15:54.327
It's by Aaron Mulvaney, Emily Glazer,
and Ryan Barber, , and , Josh Dawsey.

00:15:54.407 --> 00:15:57.507
, This article has stuck with me because
think, if I'm being honest, I don't

00:15:57.687 --> 00:16:01.737
know exactly how I would've handled the
situation that those law firms faced.

00:16:02.247 --> 00:16:04.827
And I'm noticing that does
frustrate me a little bit.

00:16:05.337 --> 00:16:09.817
But I wanna model the same kind of honest
introspection and, uh, self confrontation

00:16:10.237 --> 00:16:11.977
that I encourage with my own clients.

00:16:12.037 --> 00:16:16.057
I am not looking for your validation
or your condemnation, but, but I do

00:16:16.057 --> 00:16:19.387
welcome the thoughts and feelings
that this may stir as we go along.

00:16:19.897 --> 00:16:22.537
And then quick aside here,
I promise this is relevant.

00:16:23.122 --> 00:16:26.602
One of my clients once had me take
this Dungeons and Dragons personality

00:16:26.602 --> 00:16:31.252
test, and apparently if we were in
the middle of a, some epic battle with

00:16:31.252 --> 00:16:34.522
forks and ogres and werewolves and all
the other terrifying mythical creatures

00:16:34.522 --> 00:16:38.752
charging the front lines, my role would
be to hang back, not, not fighting,

00:16:38.752 --> 00:16:41.602
not swinging in ax or a bow staff.

00:16:42.142 --> 00:16:42.472
No.

00:16:42.622 --> 00:16:45.232
According to this test, I was strolling
after the dust had settled and

00:16:45.232 --> 00:16:47.152
say to the, the battered warriors.

00:16:47.542 --> 00:16:49.492
So, uh, how are we feeling
about that skirmish?

00:16:49.837 --> 00:16:52.147
Which I thought was a really good read.

00:16:52.417 --> 00:16:55.507
Now, the client that asked me
to take this was nearly enraged.

00:16:55.507 --> 00:16:58.147
He was saying, how can you not be
out there on the front lines with us?

00:16:58.147 --> 00:17:00.337
To which I replied, a, this is not real.

00:17:00.517 --> 00:17:04.777
And two, I took that personality test as
accurately as a human being can possibly

00:17:04.777 --> 00:17:06.517
take a DD themed personality test.

00:17:06.547 --> 00:17:09.397
No doubt that that thing had
been created by a very seasoned,

00:17:09.397 --> 00:17:10.657
very serious dungeon master.

00:17:11.107 --> 00:17:13.777
And apparently my character
sheet does not come with a sword.

00:17:13.777 --> 00:17:16.957
It comes with a clipboard and
it didn't say a box of tissues.

00:17:17.197 --> 00:17:19.207
And actually it would be
more like an iPad, but.

00:17:19.582 --> 00:17:20.512
Here's the thing though.

00:17:20.572 --> 00:17:24.412
This test, even if I thought it was kind
of silly, actually ties right back to

00:17:24.412 --> 00:17:26.842
what we're talking about In that world.

00:17:26.902 --> 00:17:28.852
My character might be seen as weak.

00:17:28.882 --> 00:17:29.752
He's not a fighter.

00:17:29.872 --> 00:17:33.232
He doesn't belong on the front lines,
but my integrity would be showing up

00:17:33.232 --> 00:17:35.842
exactly who I am, doing what I do best.

00:17:36.382 --> 00:17:39.082
Hopefully helping people process
and heal and move forward.

00:17:39.532 --> 00:17:41.692
Even in fantasy land,
it's the same question.

00:17:42.142 --> 00:17:45.712
Do I twist myself to fit the role
that other people expect or do

00:17:45.712 --> 00:17:47.542
I align with who I really am?

00:17:48.337 --> 00:17:51.247
Let's use this article as our first muse.

00:17:51.307 --> 00:17:53.857
Again, not about politics,
it's more about integrity.

00:17:54.457 --> 00:17:57.097
'cause the question isn't
really, what did these firms do?

00:17:57.667 --> 00:17:59.647
It's what would I have done?

00:17:59.647 --> 00:18:01.717
Or what would you have done
if you were in their shoes?

00:18:01.747 --> 00:18:05.677
And maybe more importantly, what
does that say about my own values?

00:18:05.707 --> 00:18:09.877
Or even does this help me better
define or understand my values

00:18:10.027 --> 00:18:11.322
because it's causing me to think.

00:18:12.292 --> 00:18:15.232
The whole point here
is not guilt or shame.

00:18:15.232 --> 00:18:18.112
You're not doing something bad
and you're certainly not bad.

00:18:18.532 --> 00:18:20.902
This is about giving yourself
permission to be curious about

00:18:20.902 --> 00:18:22.822
who you are and how you operate.

00:18:23.422 --> 00:18:25.732
Now here's I think what
a lot of people will do.

00:18:25.732 --> 00:18:28.252
They'll say, well, I understand
I would never do that.

00:18:28.882 --> 00:18:32.212
What we might actually be doing
is soothing our own discomfort.

00:18:32.992 --> 00:18:35.632
'cause the truth is, if you've never
been in a particular situation, you

00:18:35.632 --> 00:18:37.342
do not know exactly how you respond.

00:18:37.402 --> 00:18:37.942
None of us do.

00:18:38.662 --> 00:18:43.252
You can prepare and visualize and, and
meditate and manifest and set intentions

00:18:43.582 --> 00:18:47.692
about the kind of person that you want
to be, and that work absolutely matters.

00:18:47.962 --> 00:18:50.872
But I think honesty with
yourself also matters.

00:18:51.382 --> 00:18:53.542
And part of honesty is admitting, okay.

00:18:53.542 --> 00:18:56.062
Honestly, I don't know how I
would act until I'm there now.

00:18:56.062 --> 00:18:57.862
I believe I would act a certain way.

00:18:58.342 --> 00:19:00.592
It's not a flaw, and
that's part of being human.

00:19:01.807 --> 00:19:05.857
And if I can't know how I'd act
in every situation, then how could

00:19:05.857 --> 00:19:09.247
I possibly decide how somebody
else should have acted in theirs?

00:19:09.517 --> 00:19:12.937
I don't live in their body, I don't carry
their history, and they don't carry mine.

00:19:13.177 --> 00:19:15.577
And that's why integrity is so personal.

00:19:15.877 --> 00:19:16.987
And it's so hard.

00:19:16.987 --> 00:19:21.817
It's so difficult because people have
no idea what someone else is going

00:19:21.817 --> 00:19:23.047
through or what they bring to the table.

00:19:23.737 --> 00:19:28.477
And often it's because neither do you
or me until we're in that situation.

00:19:29.212 --> 00:19:31.792
So with that framework in mind, let me
walk you through a few moments from this

00:19:31.792 --> 00:19:35.692
article that really hit me and I'll share
why I think that they struck such a chord.

00:19:35.722 --> 00:19:39.082
One of the earliest firms targeted
by these executive orders was

00:19:39.112 --> 00:19:41.932
called Paul Weiss, and apparently
they're one of the biggest and most

00:19:41.932 --> 00:19:43.552
prestigious firms in the country.

00:19:43.792 --> 00:19:46.722
We were talking about fees in
the billions and think it was

00:19:46.722 --> 00:19:48.222
attorneys over a thousand.

00:19:48.792 --> 00:19:52.287
Now, instead of suing, they struck
a deal with the White House.

00:19:52.857 --> 00:19:55.137
The fallout, and this is all
according to this article.

00:19:55.137 --> 00:19:58.857
The general counsel of a major
financial company said that when she

00:19:58.857 --> 00:20:01.917
heard Paul Weiss had made the deal,
she said she felt physically ill.

00:20:02.577 --> 00:20:05.517
Others said that they had reassured the
firm that they would stand by them only

00:20:05.517 --> 00:20:07.407
to feel blindsided when the firm caved.

00:20:07.797 --> 00:20:09.777
Some companies even pulled
their business overnight.

00:20:10.317 --> 00:20:11.127
Pause for a second.

00:20:11.157 --> 00:20:12.717
Imagine being in that firm's leadership.

00:20:13.407 --> 00:20:16.107
Do you take the pragmatic route
to protect your partners and

00:20:16.107 --> 00:20:18.237
keep these contracts alive?

00:20:18.567 --> 00:20:21.767
Or do you hold the line and
risk potential implosion and an

00:20:21.767 --> 00:20:23.387
attack by a federal government?

00:20:23.897 --> 00:20:26.987
And imagine being a young associate at
that firm who had spent their entire

00:20:27.407 --> 00:20:31.697
we'll say twenties or thirties, uh, as
a young associate at that firm vying for

00:20:31.697 --> 00:20:33.497
this corner office to become a partner.

00:20:34.097 --> 00:20:37.487
Then what does that do all of a
sudden to your sense of self or your

00:20:37.487 --> 00:20:39.977
sense of trust and belonging now?

00:20:40.442 --> 00:20:44.342
Back to the article on the other side,
you had firms like Ginner and Block.

00:20:44.402 --> 00:20:47.732
They fought back in court even though
it meant anxious clients and the

00:20:47.732 --> 00:20:51.422
risk of losing business on their
website, they posted that giving in

00:20:51.422 --> 00:20:54.452
would mean compromising our ability
to zealously advocate for all of

00:20:54.452 --> 00:20:58.532
our clients and then capitulating to
unconstitutional government coercion,

00:20:58.532 --> 00:21:04.532
which is simply not in our DNA and
that phrase alone, not in our DNA.

00:21:04.652 --> 00:21:07.742
That feels like the language of integrity.

00:21:08.552 --> 00:21:11.582
Is a firm saying we know who we
are and we're not gonna portray

00:21:11.582 --> 00:21:13.142
that no matter what it costs us.

00:21:13.862 --> 00:21:17.222
And before I go on in the article, I
think that's one of these fascinating

00:21:17.222 --> 00:21:20.222
things, and I guess I'll say it's a
plug for my men's emotional architects.

00:21:20.867 --> 00:21:22.967
Group, so reach out if you're interested.

00:21:23.117 --> 00:21:27.107
But the more that that one can
figure out who they are and then

00:21:27.137 --> 00:21:32.027
they can stand confident in who
they are, then they may not find

00:21:32.027 --> 00:21:35.027
themselves being as much of a people
pleaser as they've been in the past.

00:21:35.297 --> 00:21:39.307
'cause they're not just trying to
give up to go along or to get out of

00:21:39.307 --> 00:21:42.907
that particular moment that they are
starting to become more emotionally

00:21:42.907 --> 00:21:46.567
consistent, emotionally safe,
verbally safe, verbally consistent,

00:21:46.627 --> 00:21:48.832
and they start to live by this.

00:21:49.732 --> 00:21:53.332
This integrity and you can trust that
when they say they will do something,

00:21:53.332 --> 00:21:57.682
they will do it, or they will be very
open about reasons why they can't.

00:21:58.072 --> 00:22:02.202
And so even though it might be upsetting
because you maybe liked the version

00:22:02.202 --> 00:22:04.992
of them at one point that would say,
Hey, I'll take care of it, whatever

00:22:04.992 --> 00:22:07.932
it is that felt better in the moment,
but then they consistently did not

00:22:07.932 --> 00:22:09.372
take care of it, whatever it was.

00:22:09.552 --> 00:22:12.222
And over time then you realize I
really can't count on this person.

00:22:12.492 --> 00:22:13.992
And so I think that's so interesting.

00:22:14.282 --> 00:22:18.122
In this article, when you put that
in the context of companies that had

00:22:18.122 --> 00:22:21.242
hired these law firms, and I will
say that I found that some of the

00:22:21.272 --> 00:22:26.172
billable hours or the hourly rates were
anywhere from one to $3,000 an hour.

00:22:26.532 --> 00:22:29.322
So if you are paying that kind of
money and you want this firm to

00:22:29.322 --> 00:22:32.562
really be there and have your back,
I think that that's what this.

00:22:32.837 --> 00:22:36.407
This language was saying that this
phrase is not in our DNA, that they're

00:22:36.407 --> 00:22:40.067
saying that how could our, how could
our clients trust us if then we go

00:22:40.067 --> 00:22:44.147
against our core values and don't
operate from a place of integrity?

00:22:45.412 --> 00:22:48.292
So back to the article, the, the
Ripple Effect that said was fascinating

00:22:48.292 --> 00:22:51.562
because some big corporations like
Oracle, Morgan Stanley, and Microsoft

00:22:51.562 --> 00:22:55.282
for a time started moving work away
from the firms that signed deals

00:22:55.312 --> 00:22:56.662
and toward the ones that resisted.

00:22:56.662 --> 00:22:57.262
Now why?

00:22:57.742 --> 00:23:00.922
And here, here it is, because if
a firm wouldn't even stand up for

00:23:00.922 --> 00:23:04.312
itself, how could a client trust it
to stand up for them in the courtroom?

00:23:05.782 --> 00:23:08.782
That's where I think if you see
that someone in a relationship won't

00:23:08.782 --> 00:23:12.652
stand up for themselves, how can you
trust that they will have your back?

00:23:13.042 --> 00:23:16.132
I often say, when I'm talking about
helping men in particular, stay

00:23:16.132 --> 00:23:20.242
grounded, stay less emotionally
reactive, learning how to respond

00:23:20.242 --> 00:23:22.012
actually instead of react that.

00:23:22.312 --> 00:23:26.752
When you look at it that way, if someone
can rattle me with just their words, then

00:23:26.752 --> 00:23:30.052
heaven forbid if the saber tooth tiger
comes walking through the living room,

00:23:30.322 --> 00:23:34.672
then the person that, uh, that I am I
wanna say is trusting me to feel safe

00:23:34.672 --> 00:23:36.982
is definitely not going to feel safe.

00:23:37.042 --> 00:23:40.312
One general counsel put it pretty bluntly,
they said, if you don't have a hard

00:23:40.312 --> 00:23:42.172
line, you don't have any line at all.

00:23:42.562 --> 00:23:46.552
And then inside these firms that made
deals, the fallout was pretty intense

00:23:46.882 --> 00:23:48.892
at places like a firm called Skadden.

00:23:48.892 --> 00:23:51.562
Latham and Kirkland Younger
Associates were resigning.

00:23:51.772 --> 00:23:55.552
One associate wrote in their
departure email that they refused to

00:23:55.552 --> 00:23:57.262
sleepwalk toward authoritarianism.

00:23:57.652 --> 00:23:58.612
Partners left too.

00:23:58.612 --> 00:24:02.032
Even managing partners reportedly
grew emotional as they explained

00:24:02.032 --> 00:24:04.972
to their colleagues why they felt
they had no choice but to settle.

00:24:05.842 --> 00:24:09.352
So think about that leaders breaking down
in front of their teams because they knew

00:24:09.502 --> 00:24:11.182
that the decision wasn't just business.

00:24:11.567 --> 00:24:15.502
It was somewhat existential because
their integrity was on the line.

00:24:16.912 --> 00:24:22.192
There were also no doubt situations where
people were leveraged financially and they

00:24:22.222 --> 00:24:26.722
had perhaps lived beyond their means and
were counting on the next promotion or the

00:24:26.722 --> 00:24:31.222
next big bonus check to help them get out
of the financial place that they were in.

00:24:31.552 --> 00:24:34.312
And so then that's where I
know every person has to make

00:24:34.312 --> 00:24:35.422
this decision on their own.

00:24:36.487 --> 00:24:37.927
So why am I sharing all this?

00:24:38.377 --> 00:24:41.677
Because while these stories are, we're
talking about billion dollar firms

00:24:41.677 --> 00:24:44.557
and executive orders, the underlying
question I think is one that we

00:24:44.557 --> 00:24:46.357
will all face if we haven't already.

00:24:46.717 --> 00:24:51.487
When the pressure is on, do I choose
approval or do I choose alignment?

00:24:51.607 --> 00:24:52.987
Do I choose integrity?

00:24:53.107 --> 00:24:55.747
And if you're tempted to say,
well, I would always choose

00:24:55.747 --> 00:24:57.607
integrity, I would just say pause.

00:24:58.177 --> 00:25:00.517
'cause in real life these
decisions aren't abstract.

00:25:00.967 --> 00:25:02.767
They, they come with very real costs.

00:25:03.202 --> 00:25:07.132
Relationships, belonging,
livelihood, financial safety.

00:25:07.612 --> 00:25:11.812
And that's exactly why I want to take
this conversation into other arenas.

00:25:12.052 --> 00:25:15.952
We'll talk about tech, healthcare,
faith, friendships, where the same

00:25:15.952 --> 00:25:19.132
character versus integrity dilemma
shows up in ways that I think

00:25:19.132 --> 00:25:20.722
might hit much closer to home.

00:25:21.442 --> 00:25:24.292
Now, I say that, and I'm gonna
give you two more real examples,

00:25:24.292 --> 00:25:26.872
and these both happen to be
attorneys, but these are based off

00:25:26.872 --> 00:25:27.982
of clients that I had worked with.

00:25:28.252 --> 00:25:29.222
. So you have two attorneys.

00:25:29.222 --> 00:25:32.732
They're different people, similar roles,
but working in two different law firms.

00:25:33.132 --> 00:25:36.802
First meet Jordan, Jordan's
at a prestigious law firm that

00:25:36.862 --> 00:25:40.222
just signed a very lucrative
deal with a high profile client.

00:25:40.252 --> 00:25:42.292
Maybe someone in the world of politics.

00:25:43.312 --> 00:25:47.032
Despite the client's track record
of skirting ethical boundaries.

00:25:47.482 --> 00:25:49.162
So now Jordan has character.

00:25:49.192 --> 00:25:53.062
Jordan is known for being dependable,
always on time, mentoring junior

00:25:53.062 --> 00:25:54.592
associates, keeping clients happy.

00:25:55.012 --> 00:25:59.212
So around the office, Jordan is
a very well-liked team player.

00:26:00.142 --> 00:26:04.252
But when the firm takes on this
controversial client, Jordan keeps quiet.

00:26:04.882 --> 00:26:08.992
In fact, Jordan even helps draft some
of the legal strategy and just starts

00:26:08.992 --> 00:26:12.652
reasoning to me and those around Jordan.

00:26:13.222 --> 00:26:15.352
It's really not my job to
question leadership 'cause

00:26:15.352 --> 00:26:16.432
I am here to do good work.

00:26:16.492 --> 00:26:18.742
This is what I am hired to do
and what am I supposed to do?

00:26:18.742 --> 00:26:20.512
This is, these are my marching orders.

00:26:20.812 --> 00:26:23.422
Now the pluses, Jordan is seen as loyal.

00:26:23.812 --> 00:26:27.232
They move up the ladder, they get
bonuses, they maintain a smooth career.

00:26:27.922 --> 00:26:32.302
The minuses, every time they file
another motion for that client, there's

00:26:32.302 --> 00:26:33.772
just something happening inside.

00:26:33.802 --> 00:26:35.392
There's this quiet dissonance.

00:26:35.692 --> 00:26:40.312
They know that their work is enabling
harm, and they start avoiding

00:26:40.312 --> 00:26:43.132
conversations that might bring
that discomfort to the surface.

00:26:43.132 --> 00:26:45.352
When people say, Hey, what
do you do for a living?

00:26:45.352 --> 00:26:48.112
Jordan used to love saying, I'm a
corporate attorney and I work with these

00:26:48.112 --> 00:26:51.022
high profile clients and let me tell you
about some of the cases I'm working on.

00:26:51.472 --> 00:26:56.032
But Jordan started noticing that they
would just not really speak up about

00:26:56.032 --> 00:27:00.622
what they did, even though they liked
the idea that they were an attorney, but

00:27:00.622 --> 00:27:04.542
they were really not enjoying the feeling
that they had with the work they did.

00:27:05.742 --> 00:27:06.672
Now meet Alexis.

00:27:07.092 --> 00:27:11.682
Alexis works at a rival firm,
also very highly respected, and

00:27:11.682 --> 00:27:12.942
they face a similar situation.

00:27:13.392 --> 00:27:16.602
Here is a potential client with
questionable ethics, but they

00:27:16.632 --> 00:27:18.822
offer the firm a huge retainer.

00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:23.139
Alexis's firm decides to pass citing
their commitment to pro bono cases

00:27:23.139 --> 00:27:26.829
and their existing clients that are
in conflict with this new prospect.

00:27:27.339 --> 00:27:31.059
And Alexis backs the decision publicly,
even volunteers to help defend a

00:27:31.059 --> 00:27:34.509
nonprofit that is actually being sued
by that same controversial client.

00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:37.359
Now, the pluses, Alexis
sleeps well at night.

00:27:37.749 --> 00:27:41.829
Their professional reputation deepens
not just for skill, but for principle.

00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:45.399
Their network expands to include
other attorneys and organizations

00:27:45.609 --> 00:27:47.199
who value them for their integrity.

00:27:47.199 --> 00:27:50.979
Now, the minuses, they lose out on
billable hours from that big client

00:27:51.369 --> 00:27:55.059
and the partners sometimes pass them
over for more high profile cases.

00:27:55.059 --> 00:28:00.819
Saying that Alexis is a little too
idealistic, two attorneys both respected,

00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:04.359
one's playing the long game for their
career, and the other is playing

00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:05.739
the long game for their conscience.

00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:12.939
Both have character, they are showing
up consistently as they are, but only

00:28:12.939 --> 00:28:15.489
one is fully anchored and integrity.

00:28:16.704 --> 00:28:20.004
So what's pretty fascinating is that
both Jordan and Alexis would describe

00:28:20.004 --> 00:28:23.184
themselves as good people, and I will
attest to the fact that they are.

00:28:24.384 --> 00:28:27.414
But their decision making comes
from two very different places.

00:28:28.254 --> 00:28:32.474
Jordan's choice is rooted in external
validation, approval from partners at the

00:28:32.474 --> 00:28:37.544
firm, approval and validation from keeping
the peace, avoiding rocking the boat.

00:28:37.724 --> 00:28:40.664
It's safer, but it leans
heavily on the need to be seen

00:28:40.664 --> 00:28:42.074
in a certain light by others.

00:28:42.974 --> 00:28:47.174
, It was no surprise as we dug into
Jordan's past that Jordan wasn't really

00:28:47.774 --> 00:28:49.244
asked a lot of questions growing up.

00:28:49.974 --> 00:28:52.284
They were to be seen and not heard.

00:28:53.004 --> 00:28:55.524
Jordan didn't really have a
whole lot of opinions growing up

00:28:55.584 --> 00:29:01.044
because Jordan wasn't asked for
their opinion very often, if ever.

00:29:01.794 --> 00:29:05.099
So Jordan thought that everything
they were doing was pretty normal.

00:29:06.639 --> 00:29:08.919
They thought it was pretty fascinating
that, yeah, I really don't have a lot

00:29:08.919 --> 00:29:10.989
of opinions, but it's probably normal.

00:29:11.589 --> 00:29:15.259
But had Jordan's parents been
curious with Jordan when they were

00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:19.759
young then Jordan would've felt like
they were allowed to have opinions.

00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:23.909
There would've been curiosity from
a primary caregiver who they are

00:29:23.909 --> 00:29:25.649
seeking connection and safety with.

00:29:26.489 --> 00:29:30.779
So that would've led to Jordan feeling
safe to express their opinion, which

00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:34.869
would've most likely led to them , being
a little more firm in their convictions.

00:29:35.409 --> 00:29:37.929
And I'm not saying one is right
or wrong right now, we're just

00:29:37.989 --> 00:29:40.089
saying this is, this is what it is.

00:29:40.629 --> 00:29:44.889
Now, Alexis's choice is rooted in internal
validation, internal, not external

00:29:44.889 --> 00:29:48.999
validation, because internal is about
alignment with personal values, even

00:29:48.999 --> 00:29:51.009
at the cost of opportunity or approval.

00:29:52.134 --> 00:29:54.954
Alexis is willing to live with
the short-term discomfort because

00:29:54.954 --> 00:29:58.474
they believe in the long-term
game of integrity, for their work.

00:29:59.164 --> 00:30:01.834
And this is where emotional
maturity comes into play when we

00:30:01.834 --> 00:30:05.884
are emotionally immature, which I,
I maintain that we all start from

00:30:05.884 --> 00:30:07.114
this place of emotional immaturity.

00:30:07.114 --> 00:30:11.284
We don't know what we don't know when
we're emotionally immature, our identity

00:30:11.284 --> 00:30:13.504
is quite frankly, a little fragile.

00:30:13.804 --> 00:30:17.414
So we outsource our self-worth
to other people's reactions.

00:30:17.654 --> 00:30:21.344
We are trying to read the room and try
to figure out what do I need to do or

00:30:21.344 --> 00:30:24.194
say to get these people to like me.

00:30:24.284 --> 00:30:26.834
And I don't want them to
think that I, I'm bad.

00:30:27.974 --> 00:30:32.174
But as we grow often through the process
of figuring out, clarifying our values,

00:30:32.234 --> 00:30:36.634
setting, value-based goals, we start
to anchor our decisions internally.

00:30:37.489 --> 00:30:41.869
And there's our bridge to today's
conversation because integrity isn't

00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:46.399
just about what you believe, it's about
what you do when your beliefs are tested.

00:30:46.399 --> 00:30:50.629
You may be a very good person and you
have some deep, deep core beliefs,

00:30:51.019 --> 00:30:53.629
but when tested, do you withdraw?

00:30:53.749 --> 00:30:54.979
Do you play small?

00:30:55.339 --> 00:30:58.489
Do you tell yourself the stories
to get along is the best thing

00:30:58.489 --> 00:30:59.869
right now in the long run?

00:31:00.829 --> 00:31:03.649
Even if over time it just
doesn't start to feel right.

00:31:04.549 --> 00:31:07.249
. It's about what you do when
your beliefs are tested.

00:31:07.249 --> 00:31:09.799
And to get there, we need to
understand the difference between

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:13.909
character and integrity and how
emotional maturity transforms both.

00:31:14.689 --> 00:31:19.339
I'm a huge acceptance and commitment
therapy fan and in act there's a core

00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:21.799
distinction between values and goals.

00:31:22.189 --> 00:31:25.369
Goals are the things that you can check
off a list, win a case, hit billable

00:31:25.369 --> 00:31:30.229
hours, become a millionaire, get promoted,
get the six pack abs, get the cool car.

00:31:30.829 --> 00:31:36.379
Values are the ongoing directions that you
move toward, like curiosity, authenticity,

00:31:36.589 --> 00:31:39.079
justice, compassion, fairness.

00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:44.159
Jordan's decisions might align with
short-term goals, keeping their

00:31:44.159 --> 00:31:49.439
job secure, check earning, partner
approval check, but they're drifting

00:31:49.439 --> 00:31:51.029
away from their deeper values.

00:31:51.669 --> 00:31:54.369
It was very clear that Jordan
did not know what their values

00:31:54.369 --> 00:31:56.289
were, which also is normal.

00:31:56.919 --> 00:31:59.319
And even when you start to
try to figure out your values.

00:31:59.769 --> 00:32:03.489
There's a period of time where most
likely you're thinking, well, I

00:32:03.489 --> 00:32:05.589
know I should value certain things.

00:32:05.589 --> 00:32:09.519
Nobody likes to be should on because
those values we most likely picked

00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.029
up from our parents or from our faith
community, our neighborhood, our friends.

00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:18.189
And so you start with these
basically external values.

00:32:18.189 --> 00:32:20.829
People are handing you their values
and saying, I think this is important,

00:32:21.369 --> 00:32:25.019
which is something we're gonna cover
in a podcast episode in another week or

00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:27.389
two about projection, about the mirror.

00:32:27.719 --> 00:32:30.749
That if I can project my values
onto you and get you to buy into my

00:32:30.749 --> 00:32:32.909
values, then I, they must be right.

00:32:33.089 --> 00:32:36.539
So then I'm okay to have my
own values versus I, it's

00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:37.559
okay for me to have my values.

00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:38.639
There's a period right there.

00:32:39.989 --> 00:32:42.719
So Alexis's decisions though, on
the other hand, may cost them in

00:32:42.719 --> 00:32:46.469
immediate goals, but they keep them
moving toward those core values.

00:32:47.129 --> 00:32:52.349
In the grand scheme of things in the long
term, living a life of purpose and values

00:32:52.409 --> 00:32:56.729
is far more satisfying than continually
trying to figure out a way to get people

00:32:56.729 --> 00:33:01.379
to like you because you are handing your
power, your sense of self in the hands

00:33:01.379 --> 00:33:05.279
of others on a pretty regular basis, and
then you are at the whim of their mood.

00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:07.649
So this is committed action.

00:33:07.649 --> 00:33:10.679
It's doing what matters most, even
in the presence of discomfort, you

00:33:10.679 --> 00:33:14.249
know, so for Alexis, that discomfort
might be fewer billable hours or

00:33:14.249 --> 00:33:15.959
whispers about being too idealistic.

00:33:16.199 --> 00:33:19.469
For Jordan, it's the quiet inner
dissonance that grows over time

00:33:19.679 --> 00:33:21.089
when their values are sidelined.

00:33:21.739 --> 00:33:24.379
, And let's throw, , another
theory that I've only recently

00:33:24.379 --> 00:33:25.969
learned about into the mix.

00:33:25.969 --> 00:33:29.239
It's called Self-Determination
Theory, or SDT.

00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:34.129
It was developed by psychologist Edward, I
think it's Decky or Desi and Richard Ryan.

00:33:34.249 --> 00:33:37.989
And at its heart, it's about what
truly drives human motivation and what

00:33:37.989 --> 00:33:39.489
makes that motivation sustainable.

00:33:39.969 --> 00:33:43.749
So, according to SDT, we all have three
basic psychological needs that fuel

00:33:43.749 --> 00:33:45.129
our sense of purpose and our wellbeing.

00:33:45.609 --> 00:33:46.179
Autonomy.

00:33:46.794 --> 00:33:50.784
Competence and relatedness, . So
when these needs are met, we

00:33:50.784 --> 00:33:54.464
tend to feel more energized, more
authentic, and more capable of

00:33:54.464 --> 00:33:55.874
living in alignment with our values.

00:33:56.474 --> 00:34:00.164
When these things aren't met, we
start to feel stuck or disengaged.

00:34:00.164 --> 00:34:03.134
Something's wrong with us internally,
we start to get resentful.

00:34:03.854 --> 00:34:07.724
So you can think of autonomy as having
a sense of choice over your actions.

00:34:08.134 --> 00:34:10.984
Think of somebody who chooses
cases or clients based on their

00:34:10.984 --> 00:34:13.894
personal values rather than fear
of what their partners will think.

00:34:14.104 --> 00:34:15.844
They're not rebelling against authority.

00:34:16.084 --> 00:34:18.664
They're steering their own
ship, even in choppy waters.

00:34:18.884 --> 00:34:22.844
It goes back to every opportunity for them
is a chance for them to self confront, to

00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:25.724
look inside and grow, even if that might.

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:27.249
Cost them their job.

00:34:27.249 --> 00:34:29.799
That's what can be so difficult
because I understand that there can

00:34:29.799 --> 00:34:32.979
be some pretty tough times where
you are financially dependent upon

00:34:32.979 --> 00:34:34.449
a job at this particular time.

00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:38.689
And it can be scary to then
say, , I am gonna live by my values.

00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:43.509
Competence then is about feeling
effective, feeling capable in what you do.

00:34:43.929 --> 00:34:46.749
Think of somebody who takes on a
challenging pro bono case that they

00:34:46.764 --> 00:34:49.959
believe in, not because it's easy, but
because they know it's gonna stretch their

00:34:49.959 --> 00:34:51.819
skills, it's gonna deepen their expertise.

00:34:52.359 --> 00:34:55.059
And each small win then builds
confidence that they can

00:34:55.059 --> 00:34:56.289
handle bigger challenges ahead.

00:34:56.389 --> 00:34:59.929
And you can start to make sense of
the fact that if you are beginning

00:34:59.929 --> 00:35:05.599
to find your sense of self purpose
values that things are not as scary.

00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:09.279
They still may be scary, but you
are starting to lean into the

00:35:09.279 --> 00:35:10.839
discomfort brace for the discomfort.

00:35:11.109 --> 00:35:14.049
Know that I am gonna learn
something about myself, even if the

00:35:14.049 --> 00:35:17.289
uncomfortable thing is I'm doing
something I, I don't know how to do.

00:35:17.529 --> 00:35:19.299
I might even have to say
things like, I don't know.

00:35:20.539 --> 00:35:21.469
Then relatedness.

00:35:21.469 --> 00:35:25.309
This third concept is feeling connected
to others in a way that's genuine.

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:28.579
Because I promise you, when you are
starting to figure out who you are

00:35:28.699 --> 00:35:33.429
and developing that sense of self,
then you will start to find yourself

00:35:33.429 --> 00:35:37.809
around more like-minded people in
reciprocal relationships because you

00:35:37.839 --> 00:35:40.359
no longer are trying to figure out,
how do I get this person to like me?

00:35:40.899 --> 00:35:43.869
Because you really do have to start
from a place of I like myself.

00:35:44.139 --> 00:35:46.389
So if somebody is trying to
get me to do something I don't

00:35:46.389 --> 00:35:48.139
wanna do, I'm better than that.

00:35:48.319 --> 00:35:49.579
That isn't something I'm interested in.

00:35:49.579 --> 00:35:51.289
And I don't even really have
to try to defend myself.

00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:51.949
Just no thanks.

00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.089
You can think of somebody who works
late into the night with a team on a

00:35:56.089 --> 00:35:59.239
cause they care about, not because they
have to, but because they feel a part

00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:00.499
of something bigger than themselves.

00:36:00.589 --> 00:36:03.609
And that connection is what fuels
them in a way that a paycheck,

00:36:03.609 --> 00:36:08.839
never could, A paycheck is nice and
necessary, but it just sounds so cliche.

00:36:08.839 --> 00:36:11.839
In the 10 years I spent in the
computer software industry, I

00:36:11.839 --> 00:36:15.679
would've thought this stuff was so
much woo woo, maybe even three woos.

00:36:16.789 --> 00:36:20.839
Now, over the last 20 plus years where
I found something that I just love

00:36:20.889 --> 00:36:24.669
and I'm passionate about, it turns out
that it is work and there are times

00:36:24.669 --> 00:36:27.529
where you don't like it and it can be
frustrating, but overall, you can't wait

00:36:27.529 --> 00:36:28.969
to get up and go to work the next day.

00:36:29.262 --> 00:36:32.862
, According to SDT, when all three of these
needs are supported, people tend to act

00:36:32.862 --> 00:36:34.762
from a place of intrinsic motivation.

00:36:34.792 --> 00:36:36.472
They're driven by what
matters most to them.

00:36:36.472 --> 00:36:38.932
It's this internal thing,
rather than chasing approval and

00:36:38.932 --> 00:36:42.152
avoiding disapproval or collecting
external rewards and validation.

00:36:42.202 --> 00:36:46.042
, In other words, self-determination
theory, that, that's a good way to

00:36:46.042 --> 00:36:49.852
explain why Alexis, in this earlier
example, can choose integrity even

00:36:49.852 --> 00:36:53.162
when it costs them, and why Jordan
might struggle when their psychological

00:36:53.162 --> 00:36:55.512
needs are ever so quietly compromised.

00:36:56.382 --> 00:37:01.542
So autonomy, feeling like you have
choice and control over your actions.

00:37:02.202 --> 00:37:06.582
It's holding on to yourself even in
the pressure when others want you

00:37:06.582 --> 00:37:10.542
to, to fold into whatever they want
you to do or who they need you to be.

00:37:11.082 --> 00:37:14.052
Competence, you're feeling
effective in your work.

00:37:14.082 --> 00:37:18.132
You are doing things and you like to
do them, and most likely, therefore,

00:37:18.132 --> 00:37:22.272
you are becoming very competent in
them, which gives you a real sense of

00:37:22.272 --> 00:37:24.622
internal, validation and motivation.

00:37:25.402 --> 00:37:27.292
And then this relatedness.

00:37:27.392 --> 00:37:31.682
If I'm feeling connected with the
things I like to do, and I'm feeling

00:37:31.682 --> 00:37:35.732
competent about those things, then
most likely I'm gonna find relatedness.

00:37:35.732 --> 00:37:39.992
I'm gonna feel connected to those who I am
interacting with because we're most likely

00:37:40.232 --> 00:37:41.942
having some good shared experiences.

00:37:42.992 --> 00:37:46.622
So when Jordan acts mostly for external
rewards, partner praise, avoiding

00:37:46.622 --> 00:37:48.722
conflict, they're giving up some autonomy.

00:37:49.157 --> 00:37:51.827
They're letting others'
expectations drive their choices.

00:37:52.277 --> 00:37:54.527
They're continually finding
themselves going like, oh, what

00:37:54.527 --> 00:37:55.637
is this person gonna think?

00:37:55.637 --> 00:37:58.157
Or, you know, let me ask this
person, what would you do?

00:37:58.157 --> 00:38:02.337
'cause that way if it doesn't go well,
then I can say, well, they told me if

00:38:02.337 --> 00:38:06.387
it does go well, then maybe they'll
tell me that I'm good over time.

00:38:06.417 --> 00:38:08.877
This is the kind of thing that
leads to burnout, almost like a

00:38:08.877 --> 00:38:13.557
moral injury because you're starting
to compromise your own integrity

00:38:13.647 --> 00:38:15.327
or, character or, Sense of self.

00:38:16.017 --> 00:38:19.137
Alexis though is acting from
intrinsic or internal motivation

00:38:19.137 --> 00:38:20.847
choices that reflect personal values.

00:38:21.622 --> 00:38:25.852
. Research shows that intrinsic motivation,
fosters resilience, satisfaction in life,

00:38:25.852 --> 00:38:28.442
job, career, a stronger sense of self.

00:38:28.442 --> 00:38:34.032
So in other words, integrity and emotional
maturity aren't just moral virtues.

00:38:34.032 --> 00:38:39.582
They are these psychological nutrients and
they help you thrive, not just survive.

00:38:39.816 --> 00:38:41.826
Lemme give you a real world example.

00:38:42.246 --> 00:38:45.736
And actually, , before I do that, I
neglected to stay up front, follow

00:38:45.736 --> 00:38:49.546
me on Instagram at virtual dot
couch and TikTok at virtual couch.

00:38:49.546 --> 00:38:52.096
And please go join my
newsletter@tonyoverbay.com.

00:38:52.096 --> 00:38:55.086
The newsletters have been heating up,
and, that's your front row seat to

00:38:55.086 --> 00:38:58.176
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00:38:58.176 --> 00:39:01.446
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group, a place for guys ready

00:39:01.446 --> 00:39:02.856
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00:39:02.856 --> 00:39:05.826
A lot of the things I've been talking
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00:39:05.976 --> 00:39:09.336
And if you are ready to reclaim
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00:39:09.906 --> 00:39:11.496
I hope you know what I'm talking about.

00:39:12.366 --> 00:39:14.646
Check out the path
back@pathbackrecovery.com.

00:39:14.676 --> 00:39:18.546
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00:39:18.546 --> 00:39:22.656
number of years and the best part of
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00:39:22.656 --> 00:39:24.546
truly, and a group of amazing guys.

00:39:24.886 --> 00:39:27.226
And I also love hearing from
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00:39:27.226 --> 00:39:28.186
victories, your questions.

00:39:28.186 --> 00:39:31.846
So please keep them coming and you can
reach out to me through my website,

00:39:31.846 --> 00:39:34.636
tony everybody.com if you're interested
in working with me one-on-one or

00:39:34.636 --> 00:39:36.796
maybe as a couple from time to time.

00:39:36.796 --> 00:39:38.386
I do have availability or opening.

00:39:38.436 --> 00:39:39.936
Reach out to me through my website.

00:39:40.116 --> 00:39:41.496
, Let's get back into today's episode.

00:39:42.096 --> 00:39:43.686
Now we're bringing another
person into the mix.

00:39:43.686 --> 00:39:44.856
Let's talk about Sophia.

00:39:45.036 --> 00:39:49.206
So Sophia started her career in a large
corporate law firm, very much like Jordan.

00:39:49.206 --> 00:39:51.396
She was smart and hardworking
and eager to please.

00:39:52.101 --> 00:39:55.191
In her first few years, she built a
reputation by doing whatever was asked,

00:39:55.251 --> 00:39:59.341
taking weekend calls, avoiding, questions
about questionable clients and smoothing

00:39:59.341 --> 00:40:00.721
things over, always with a smile.

00:40:01.261 --> 00:40:05.041
So on paper her career looked pretty much
perfect, but inside she started to feel

00:40:05.041 --> 00:40:08.401
like she was living somebody else's life,
the definite case of imposter syndrome.

00:40:09.301 --> 00:40:13.021
So one day she found herself drafting
some legal documents for a case that

00:40:13.021 --> 00:40:17.431
she really didn't agree with, and it
was starting to eat her up inside.

00:40:17.971 --> 00:40:22.221
The documents were helping a client block
funding to a community program that had

00:40:22.221 --> 00:40:24.321
actually helped her family years ago.

00:40:24.741 --> 00:40:26.811
So she felt sick that night.

00:40:26.811 --> 00:40:29.631
She said that she just laid awake,
and she was asking herself, okay,

00:40:30.201 --> 00:40:34.341
if I'm this uncomfortable now, what
will my life look like in 10 years?

00:40:34.731 --> 00:40:38.561
If I continue to support this company
that is doing this thing that will shut

00:40:38.561 --> 00:40:41.656
down a program that saved my family.

00:40:42.626 --> 00:40:43.556
We talked a lot.

00:40:43.616 --> 00:40:48.146
We talked about what it would look like to
deal with the discomfort, how much courage

00:40:48.146 --> 00:40:50.756
it would take, and it started small.

00:40:50.906 --> 00:40:53.186
So she started just to say
no to certain assignments.

00:40:53.186 --> 00:40:56.036
And even at first, she was not
saying I refuse to do this.

00:40:56.036 --> 00:40:59.186
She would say, I'm just overwhelmed,
so can you take care of that?

00:41:00.236 --> 00:41:04.226
And she sought out work that aligned more
with her values, even if it meant fewer

00:41:04.226 --> 00:41:06.176
billable hours, less kudos and praise.

00:41:06.176 --> 00:41:10.886
Maybe even, , not starting to rise
up the ranks to become a partner and.

00:41:11.561 --> 00:41:16.301
She joined a pro bono immigration
case then that she felt alive,

00:41:16.301 --> 00:41:17.801
that reignited her passion for law.

00:41:18.401 --> 00:41:21.311
So slowly, Sophia began
to feel more autonomous.

00:41:21.341 --> 00:41:24.341
She began to feel more competent
in work that mattered to her.

00:41:24.431 --> 00:41:27.641
It raised her emotional baseline,
and she felt more connected to the

00:41:27.641 --> 00:41:30.011
colleagues who shared her values
that were working within that group.

00:41:30.641 --> 00:41:34.181
And she looked back when she was
working in the area of the firm that

00:41:34.181 --> 00:41:35.981
she absolutely did not care about.

00:41:36.701 --> 00:41:39.491
She said, I didn't really care
much for the people either.

00:41:40.211 --> 00:41:44.501
And then as we continued to work
together, within a year, she left

00:41:44.501 --> 00:41:47.811
for a smaller firm that had a real
strong public interest practice.

00:41:47.811 --> 00:41:49.011
And it was not as glamorous.

00:41:49.101 --> 00:41:53.241
And she made a lot less
money, but she felt alive.

00:41:53.271 --> 00:41:56.301
She said she finally felt like she
was coming home to herself and she had

00:41:56.301 --> 00:41:59.931
traded the applause of others and the
potential to have the big corporate

00:41:59.961 --> 00:42:04.471
office and a lot of money, for the
quiet confidence of her integrity.

00:42:04.531 --> 00:42:05.941
And honestly, she never looked back.

00:42:06.221 --> 00:42:10.211
, And Sophia's story, again, based on a
true story of a client that I worked with.

00:42:10.211 --> 00:42:14.081
Now, not everybody makes that shift,
and I did have to go a little bit in the

00:42:14.081 --> 00:42:16.271
way back machine to get this example.

00:42:16.741 --> 00:42:18.211
Let's call this client Daniel.

00:42:18.401 --> 00:42:22.751
Daniel also started out as ambitious
and sharp and eager to move up

00:42:22.751 --> 00:42:24.041
the ranks in a big law firm.

00:42:24.401 --> 00:42:28.861
I'm not an attorney, and today it started,
we will get to some research in a little

00:42:28.861 --> 00:42:30.331
bit that had to do with law firms.

00:42:30.421 --> 00:42:33.021
So if I'm taking you on
my train of thought I was

00:42:33.291 --> 00:42:35.421
starting to comb my mind for.

00:42:35.811 --> 00:42:39.201
For examples that had to do with attorneys
that, I've worked with as clients.

00:42:40.041 --> 00:42:43.671
So Daniel, like Sophia, he had moments
where his work was starting to become

00:42:43.671 --> 00:42:45.141
at odds with his personal values.

00:42:45.481 --> 00:42:48.901
He drew up contracts that protected
corporations from accountability

00:42:48.901 --> 00:42:52.711
that got them, into tax shelters
and saved them billions of dollars.

00:42:53.191 --> 00:42:55.921
He started to craft arguments
that undermined causes that he

00:42:55.921 --> 00:42:57.271
actually supported outside of work.

00:42:57.687 --> 00:43:02.897
And what's fascinating is he was coming
into therapy which was great and it

00:43:02.897 --> 00:43:06.797
was early on in my therapy career.

00:43:07.637 --> 00:43:09.617
There would be these times,
not just with an attorney.

00:43:09.647 --> 00:43:12.587
I remember someone that came into
me and they opened up about these

00:43:12.587 --> 00:43:13.907
addictive behaviors they had.

00:43:13.907 --> 00:43:17.202
They also held a , very high
position in their church.

00:43:17.892 --> 00:43:21.882
And I thought, wow, this person is
very brave and they are coming to

00:43:21.882 --> 00:43:24.832
me and , they don't like how they
feel doing this addictive thing.

00:43:25.132 --> 00:43:29.692
And they were still entering , a temple,
a very sacred place for their religion.

00:43:30.262 --> 00:43:32.602
And they were not being honest.

00:43:33.022 --> 00:43:35.482
And it was, again, this
high position of authority.

00:43:36.082 --> 00:43:40.042
And in that situation, I
remember saying, okay, man, I'm

00:43:40.042 --> 00:43:41.392
so impressed, so proud of you.

00:43:41.392 --> 00:43:43.252
It's so brave of you , to
get that off your chest.

00:43:43.252 --> 00:43:46.012
So where, what do you wanna do with that?

00:43:46.342 --> 00:43:47.302
And they said, oh, nothing.

00:43:47.482 --> 00:43:48.742
I just, I feel better.

00:43:48.802 --> 00:43:51.172
So I think I can continue with
the behavior that I'm doing.

00:43:51.712 --> 00:43:54.412
I've also had people that have been
in similar positions that have been

00:43:54.412 --> 00:43:58.402
called into a, a big position and
then came and met with me and said.

00:43:58.822 --> 00:43:59.902
I can't do this.

00:44:00.177 --> 00:44:03.687
I have to be open about what I'm
struggling with, even if it costs me

00:44:03.687 --> 00:44:08.567
this position and, social status or
social capital in my faith community.

00:44:09.377 --> 00:44:12.347
I think it's so interesting,
uh, fascinating.

00:44:12.647 --> 00:44:16.907
I really enjoy that part of the job
where you can get people that could

00:44:16.907 --> 00:44:20.417
literally even be back to back one
hour to the next, that have somewhat

00:44:20.417 --> 00:44:26.387
similar cases or problems that
they're coming in with, and then they

00:44:26.387 --> 00:44:31.367
handle them completely in different
ways because we're all different.

00:44:31.937 --> 00:44:34.637
All that wonderful combination of
all the things, the nature of the

00:44:34.637 --> 00:44:37.097
nurturing birth order, DNA, abandonment,
rejection, hope, severe streams.

00:44:37.547 --> 00:44:40.667
So we think and feel the way we do because
we do, because there's so many variables.

00:44:41.757 --> 00:44:44.807
I go back to . Daniel Unlike
Sophia, Daniel didn't even

00:44:44.807 --> 00:44:46.127
really pause to reflect.

00:44:46.127 --> 00:44:49.997
He just told himself, I'll get through
this one case and then, then I'll focus

00:44:49.997 --> 00:44:51.707
on the work that really matters to him.

00:44:52.037 --> 00:44:52.727
One case.

00:44:53.237 --> 00:44:54.827
Probably know where this
is going, became two.

00:44:55.337 --> 00:44:59.027
But after this, it's gonna be different
except for I'm gonna do one more.

00:44:59.457 --> 00:45:00.297
Let me do three.

00:45:00.357 --> 00:45:04.197
This third case, and it became a
pattern and over time started to

00:45:04.197 --> 00:45:07.527
get raises and promotions, but
those came with the price tag.

00:45:07.557 --> 00:45:11.217
He started to grow distant from
the person he thought he was.

00:45:12.027 --> 00:45:15.207
Now even more of a side note,
it's really fascinating as a

00:45:15.207 --> 00:45:16.077
couple's therapist because.

00:45:16.992 --> 00:45:21.812
Most all of us . , We look at ourselves as
a, a certain person, and then we present

00:45:21.812 --> 00:45:25.622
that out to our world, to the partner and
we say, you know me, this is who I am.

00:45:25.622 --> 00:45:25.952
Right?

00:45:26.672 --> 00:45:30.232
And if that person even
hesitate, says, yeah, sure.

00:45:30.862 --> 00:45:32.212
Then you get to say, well, what?

00:45:32.212 --> 00:45:33.862
You don't think I'm, I'm a great person.

00:45:34.102 --> 00:45:38.242
And now they're backpedaling
saying, oh, I, I do, I do.

00:45:38.242 --> 00:45:41.592
But you know that the energy's off
and, , and now you, that person is hurt.

00:45:41.652 --> 00:45:44.202
They feel like, I can't believe
you, you don't, you don't know me.

00:45:44.562 --> 00:45:47.112
But in reality, maybe they don't know
themselves and they're presenting this

00:45:47.112 --> 00:45:49.542
version of themselves and saying, I
need you to validate this even if you

00:45:49.542 --> 00:45:52.122
don't agree, even if that's not the
version that you're seeing, 'cause it

00:45:52.122 --> 00:45:54.122
will make me feel better back to Daniel.

00:45:54.122 --> 00:45:56.912
By the time that we worked together,
Daniel admitted that he was really

00:45:56.912 --> 00:46:00.642
starting to feel hollow and starting
to move into, some depressive

00:46:00.642 --> 00:46:01.992
symptoms that he'd never felt before.

00:46:02.772 --> 00:46:04.032
He was still successful on paper.

00:46:04.677 --> 00:46:10.697
He was exhausted in life and
he lost sight of his autonomy.

00:46:11.337 --> 00:46:14.367
Decisions were driven by what
will keep me in favor with

00:46:14.397 --> 00:46:15.387
the partners of the law firm.

00:46:15.987 --> 00:46:19.827
His competence was unquestioned,
but it was in service of

00:46:19.857 --> 00:46:21.447
outcomes he did not believe in.

00:46:21.817 --> 00:46:23.287
Over time that is hard to keep up.

00:46:24.557 --> 00:46:25.547
, , he felt isolated.

00:46:25.607 --> 00:46:28.847
He was surrounded by people who
saw him as reliable, but not as

00:46:28.847 --> 00:46:29.927
somebody who stood for anything.

00:46:29.927 --> 00:46:31.967
And quite frankly, he didn't really
feel a connection to them either.

00:46:32.957 --> 00:46:34.097
Daniel wasn't a bad person.

00:46:34.097 --> 00:46:35.267
He was far from it.

00:46:35.297 --> 00:46:37.577
He just been living in a way
that made it hard to look in

00:46:37.577 --> 00:46:38.867
the mirror without flinching.

00:46:39.977 --> 00:46:43.117
I wasn't sure if I was going to share
this, but, and I've changed a lot

00:46:43.117 --> 00:46:46.387
of the details, but, for the record,
because all I've been talking about

00:46:46.387 --> 00:46:51.557
today are these clients these, examples
of these powerful attorneys and

00:46:51.647 --> 00:46:55.637
the struggles they have making, who
knows they're four or $500 an hour.

00:46:56.567 --> 00:46:59.447
But yes, for the record, these
were both ambitious clients

00:46:59.447 --> 00:47:00.437
and big professional jobs.

00:47:00.437 --> 00:47:03.451
But don't get me wrong, I still
work with the occasional Brad , but

00:47:03.451 --> 00:47:06.936
Brad is in his mid thirties,
lives at home, loves chugging two

00:47:06.936 --> 00:47:08.736
liters of Mountain Dew Code Red.

00:47:09.276 --> 00:47:11.916
And he experiences most
of his life online.

00:47:12.276 --> 00:47:15.486
He often refers to his online
persona, or Sona as he calls it,

00:47:15.846 --> 00:47:17.316
like it's a separate legal entity.

00:47:17.826 --> 00:47:22.536
And instead of telling me about conflicts
with Hillary or Edward or Griffin, over

00:47:22.536 --> 00:47:26.280
the ethics of helping a $1 billion company
swallow another billion dollar company.

00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:30.724
Brad's Big moral dilemma is about whether
shadow man underscore four 20 and Princess

00:47:30.754 --> 00:47:34.534
Meow Mix 99 were right to say that
the pizza sauce inside of a hot pocket

00:47:34.534 --> 00:47:38.224
technically counts as a vegetable because
this apparently turned into a heated

00:47:38.224 --> 00:47:40.354
debate in his guild's discord server.

00:47:40.504 --> 00:47:44.304
And things escalated quickly until their
magical cleric that was part of the guild

00:47:44.304 --> 00:47:48.294
rage quit right before they were supposed
to raid in or city in legends of nar.

00:47:48.534 --> 00:47:51.895
Now, without a cleric, I think we all
know, or at least Brad told me they

00:47:51.895 --> 00:47:54.565
didn't have enough healing spells to
survive the third wave of lava ORs,

00:47:54.565 --> 00:47:56.725
which then caused a catastrophic wipe.

00:47:57.445 --> 00:48:00.660
And he said this with the same tone of
voice Most of my attorney clients used

00:48:00.660 --> 00:48:04.645
when they tell me that they just lost,
tens of millions of dollars in a merger.

00:48:05.515 --> 00:48:08.570
Here's the kicker, Brad insists,
this wasn't just a game, it

00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:10.190
was a lifestyle betrayal.

00:48:11.270 --> 00:48:14.930
Honestly, and maybe I've changed
a little bit of these details,

00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.240
quite a few to protect the
confidentiality, but it's not far off.

00:48:19.020 --> 00:48:21.913
According to Brad , the sauce is
a vegetable camp, has always been

00:48:21.913 --> 00:48:24.653
in alignment with the clerics
build choices, and this was

00:48:24.653 --> 00:48:28.013
basically a bit of a constitutional
crisis in the realm of flag.

00:48:29.153 --> 00:48:32.843
So yes, integrity shows up in all sorts
of ways, sometimes in courtrooms and

00:48:32.843 --> 00:48:36.053
corporate boardrooms, and sometimes
in pixelated or cities under siege.

00:48:36.683 --> 00:48:39.653
My job is to help people figure
out if they are living in alignment

00:48:39.653 --> 00:48:42.293
with their values, whether those
values involve justice or fairness,

00:48:42.293 --> 00:48:45.443
or defending the sacred honor of
processed microwaveable snacks.

00:48:46.373 --> 00:48:50.513
Because whether you're debating corporate
ethics or the vegetable status of hot

00:48:50.513 --> 00:48:54.173
pocket sauce, which I don't think it's a
vegetable, the real question is the same.

00:48:54.263 --> 00:48:57.053
Are you acting from your values or are
you just trying to win the argument?

00:48:58.193 --> 00:49:02.783
That tension between what's easy or
rewarding and what's aligning with

00:49:02.783 --> 00:49:06.923
one's core values is exactly what
psychological research digs into.

00:49:07.143 --> 00:49:10.143
Let's explore a little bit of how
human beings navigate that internal

00:49:10.143 --> 00:49:12.363
terrain when their integrity is tested.

00:49:12.363 --> 00:49:16.323
Because it, it will be, if you are
interacting with life, you'll find

00:49:16.323 --> 00:49:21.393
yourself having to really hold onto your
integrity or really define your values.

00:49:21.993 --> 00:49:24.903
So how do you find the strength
to act from your values, whether

00:49:24.903 --> 00:49:26.087
in courtrooms or living rooms?

00:49:26.087 --> 00:49:29.689
What do these stories about These big
law firms teach us First, it's that

00:49:29.689 --> 00:49:33.829
external pressure will always test
integrity, whether it's coming from a

00:49:33.829 --> 00:49:39.259
president, a client, a partner, a paycheck
pressure has a way of cornering people.

00:49:39.624 --> 00:49:43.464
And cornering institutions into
choices they might never have

00:49:43.464 --> 00:49:45.354
imagined making in calmer times.

00:49:45.954 --> 00:49:51.024
The therapist in me sees that so often
where someone has said to me, I would

00:49:51.084 --> 00:49:57.144
never do what I did until I found
myself in a position that I did it.

00:49:57.654 --> 00:49:59.034
You can think through things.

00:49:59.034 --> 00:50:02.684
You can say, I would never let
myself, cross certain lines.

00:50:03.584 --> 00:50:07.004
But usually you're saying that when
you are nowhere near those lines.

00:50:07.724 --> 00:50:10.394
So when you then have that
experience, that's when you

00:50:10.394 --> 00:50:12.104
truly discover who you are.

00:50:13.214 --> 00:50:19.424
And I mean that with the utmost in
acceptance because as Carl Rogers, the

00:50:19.424 --> 00:50:24.014
famous psychologist, says, once I accept
myself as I am, that is when I can change.

00:50:24.044 --> 00:50:26.894
But if I'm trying to pretend that I,
I didn't know that I didn't do that,

00:50:26.984 --> 00:50:31.754
that isn't me, then I'm gonna continue
to do that same thing, trying to make

00:50:31.754 --> 00:50:33.434
sure that no one thinks bad of me.

00:50:35.399 --> 00:50:38.969
Second that some people in some
firms are willing to absorb the

00:50:38.969 --> 00:50:40.499
hit that comes with saying no.

00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:43.349
They know that in the short
term, they might lose business.

00:50:43.379 --> 00:50:44.579
They might strain relationships.

00:50:44.579 --> 00:50:47.159
People will think different
things about them.

00:50:47.459 --> 00:50:51.029
They might be labeled difficult, but
they also know that they'll be able

00:50:51.029 --> 00:50:52.559
to look themselves in the mirror.

00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:56.979
And third, we could pick up from
what we've talked about so far today,

00:50:56.979 --> 00:51:00.609
that integrity isn't just a personal
trait, it's an internal commitment

00:51:01.149 --> 00:51:02.979
that shapes the culture around you.

00:51:03.579 --> 00:51:07.509
When somebody like this, Rachel Cohen
leaves a place like the law firm Skadden,

00:51:07.509 --> 00:51:11.109
rather than compromise or principles,
it doesn't just make headlines, it

00:51:11.109 --> 00:51:15.999
sends a message to every young associate
watching from the sidelines that this

00:51:15.999 --> 00:51:19.659
is what it looks like to anchor yourself
to your values, even when it costs you.

00:51:20.529 --> 00:51:24.189
And what I see so often
in a family dynamic is.

00:51:24.789 --> 00:51:28.179
Someone that is, let's say, waking
up to the narcissistic traits and

00:51:28.179 --> 00:51:32.019
tendencies or emotional maturity in
their relationship, in their partner, and

00:51:32.019 --> 00:51:35.469
they have that courage to push to come
to couples counseling and they learn to

00:51:35.469 --> 00:51:40.739
get the tools or the skills to be able
to stay grounded and speak their values,

00:51:40.739 --> 00:51:44.429
their wants, their needs, not from a
place of manipulation or coercion or

00:51:44.429 --> 00:51:47.459
control, but from a place of integrity.

00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:48.659
This is what I do.

00:51:48.779 --> 00:51:53.389
This is what I would like in the
relationship, and they will have to deal

00:51:53.389 --> 00:51:57.619
with a tremendous amount of discomfort
because the person that they are most

00:51:57.619 --> 00:52:02.179
likely in a relationship with, the fact
that the person that I am working with

00:52:02.179 --> 00:52:06.959
has said I want to go to counseling
and it has not been easy, is because

00:52:06.959 --> 00:52:11.639
the person that they are interacting
with, their partner has most likely put

00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:14.609
pressure on them to say, well, I don't
want to, I think everything's fine.

00:52:14.669 --> 00:52:15.509
That's a you issue.

00:52:16.769 --> 00:52:20.879
So it's easy to read these headlines
about these law firms and think of them

00:52:20.879 --> 00:52:25.379
as just stories about giant law firms,
people in very nice tailored suits behind

00:52:25.379 --> 00:52:27.899
these glass doors up on the 80th floor.

00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:30.449
But really, these are human stories.

00:52:30.449 --> 00:52:34.679
These strip away the marble lobbies, the
thousand dollar billable hours, and what

00:52:34.709 --> 00:52:37.499
you're left with is the same tension
that we all face in our own lives.

00:52:37.499 --> 00:52:39.659
The choice between what's
comfortable and what's right.

00:52:39.989 --> 00:52:42.419
And if we go all the way back to what
we talked about at the beginning of the

00:52:42.419 --> 00:52:46.229
podcast, the difference between character
and integrity, this is it in real time.

00:52:46.949 --> 00:52:48.929
Character can help you
survive in a system.

00:52:49.349 --> 00:52:50.039
Integrity.

00:52:50.429 --> 00:52:51.899
That's what helps you live with yourself.

00:52:52.019 --> 00:52:55.644
Once the lights are off and nobody's
watching, the truth is the stakes

00:52:55.644 --> 00:52:58.704
don't have to be billion dollar legal
battles to make integrity matter.

00:52:59.064 --> 00:53:02.214
The setting could be a hospital,
a classroom, a construction site,

00:53:02.484 --> 00:53:06.984
or a kitchen table, because in
the end, the question is the same.

00:53:07.344 --> 00:53:11.514
Am I making this decision for approval or.

00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:14.109
For the alignment with my values.

00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:18.549
And I have seen the same kind of choice
play out far outside of courtrooms.

00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:23.369
Take Angelie a senior product manager
at a major Silicon Valley tech company.

00:53:23.669 --> 00:53:26.789
Her team was working on a new
feature that on paper it looked

00:53:26.789 --> 00:53:28.419
like a home run., I was jealous.

00:53:28.479 --> 00:53:31.689
This is one where you wish you could
have some insider info and, and invest

00:53:31.689 --> 00:53:35.409
in that sort of thing because what
she was talking about was very sleek.

00:53:35.439 --> 00:53:38.799
It was kind of addictive and
it was guaranteed to make users

00:53:38.799 --> 00:53:41.799
scroll longer, which meant more
ad revenue and happier investors.

00:53:42.399 --> 00:53:46.889
But she came in and, name has been changed
as well as some of the other details.

00:53:47.369 --> 00:53:50.159
But as she tested this product,
she couldn't shake the feeling

00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.429
that, this is not good.

00:53:51.579 --> 00:53:53.589
We are building something
that is very harmful.

00:53:54.269 --> 00:53:57.369
Some of the features that she talked
about were designed, to exploit

00:53:57.789 --> 00:53:59.919
psychological hooks, especially in.

00:54:00.474 --> 00:54:04.704
Younger users to keep 'em on an
app far longer than was healthy.

00:54:05.364 --> 00:54:08.514
Now, she could have done what I think
most people in her position might do.

00:54:08.574 --> 00:54:11.634
Keep your head down this, you're
paid to do a job that's all.

00:54:11.694 --> 00:54:16.284
Meet your deadlines and cash,
your ginormous bonus, and

00:54:16.314 --> 00:54:17.484
maybe even tip your therapist.

00:54:19.134 --> 00:54:22.824
That's character being competent,
agreeable, reliable, but it's

00:54:22.824 --> 00:54:23.839
not necessarily integrity.

00:54:24.534 --> 00:54:27.534
Now, instead she did the hard thing.

00:54:27.534 --> 00:54:29.814
She called the meeting, she laid
out her concerns to her team.

00:54:29.814 --> 00:54:34.344
Even though she knew it might slow the
project, it might make her unpopular with

00:54:34.344 --> 00:54:35.694
the higher ups, it might get her fired.

00:54:36.354 --> 00:54:37.794
And she even proposed some changes.

00:54:37.794 --> 00:54:40.984
Things like, so should we build
in our own, screen time of sorts,

00:54:40.984 --> 00:54:43.759
time use reminders, maybe some
built-in controls to limit compulsive

00:54:43.759 --> 00:54:46.204
scrolling that would protect users.

00:54:46.324 --> 00:54:48.424
, It would hurt our engagement metrics.

00:54:48.424 --> 00:54:50.374
But you know, they, they're
probably gonna be fine.

00:54:51.064 --> 00:54:53.824
And, uh, everyone said yes
and they lifted her up in the

00:54:53.824 --> 00:54:54.814
air and threw her up and down.

00:54:54.814 --> 00:54:55.804
She'll have happily ever after.

00:54:55.804 --> 00:54:57.634
And they gave her all
the money in the company.

00:54:59.149 --> 00:55:01.249
No, the fallout was pretty real.

00:55:01.309 --> 00:55:05.159
The launch was delayed, numbers dipped and
she missed out on a promotion and a bonus.

00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:11.019
And a lot of people thought that she
was, too idealistic, but the word got

00:55:11.019 --> 00:55:14.409
out and users noticed and feedback
poured in praising the changes.

00:55:14.409 --> 00:55:18.489
And over time, other teams started
using her approach and it became

00:55:18.549 --> 00:55:20.349
a model for a more ethical design.

00:55:21.009 --> 00:55:24.169
So like Alexis in the law firm,
angel didn't just make a decision.

00:55:24.169 --> 00:55:24.949
She made a statement.

00:55:25.699 --> 00:55:29.229
She proved that holding onto
herself, her integrity is not

00:55:29.229 --> 00:55:30.489
about avoiding discomfort.

00:55:30.549 --> 00:55:34.269
Oh no, it was very
discomforting or uncomfortable.

00:55:34.809 --> 00:55:39.069
It's about walking straight into
that discomfort because that's

00:55:39.069 --> 00:55:40.179
where your values lead you.

00:55:40.809 --> 00:55:44.289
You say things that you say or do the
things that you do because that's what you

00:55:44.289 --> 00:55:46.509
do, because that's what's right for you.

00:55:47.529 --> 00:55:49.379
Another example, we will call him Marcus.

00:55:49.439 --> 00:55:52.049
Same industry, different
company, senior product manager,

00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:53.759
very sharp, very fast moving.

00:55:53.879 --> 00:55:56.729
Lots of A-D-H-D-A natural
building relationships with

00:55:56.819 --> 00:55:57.899
other corporate executives.

00:55:58.179 --> 00:56:01.549
His team rolled out a different
product, but it was a similar concept,

00:56:02.029 --> 00:56:04.099
similar engagement boosting feature.

00:56:04.399 --> 00:56:06.859
And it had all these hooks.

00:56:06.859 --> 00:56:10.789
And as a matter of fact, it actually
got me to look at my phone and apps

00:56:10.789 --> 00:56:13.459
and things differently to look at
all the different ways that I didn't

00:56:13.459 --> 00:56:14.809
even realize I was being manipulated.

00:56:14.989 --> 00:56:16.429
People were glued to their screens.

00:56:16.699 --> 00:56:19.219
So Marcus noticed the same
potential downsize Angel did.

00:56:19.309 --> 00:56:21.409
He even mentioned them in
passing to a colleague.

00:56:21.409 --> 00:56:21.979
Kind of joking.

00:56:22.429 --> 00:56:25.249
Well, not really great for
humanity, but, how about those

00:56:25.249 --> 00:56:26.029
click through rates though?

00:56:26.029 --> 00:56:26.179
Huh?

00:56:26.989 --> 00:56:28.159
Probably gonna be a good bonus.

00:56:29.149 --> 00:56:30.829
But he stopped there.

00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:35.509
He even told me at one point that he
said, I now realize I was saying jokes and

00:56:35.509 --> 00:56:39.409
humor, hoping that the other person would
say, oh, I think we should go in there

00:56:39.409 --> 00:56:41.729
and say, we will no longer work on this.

00:56:41.789 --> 00:56:46.319
But he said, I wasn't gonna say it, but
he didn't take his concerns any further.

00:56:46.319 --> 00:56:48.689
And the project hit its
deadlines and the metrics sort.

00:56:48.694 --> 00:56:51.569
And Marcus was promoted and he got lots
of money, and he did not tip his therapist

00:56:51.569 --> 00:56:52.859
because you actually don't tip therapists.

00:56:52.859 --> 00:56:53.459
I'll be honest.

00:56:53.999 --> 00:56:57.419
Now, from the outside, Marcus looked
like a success story, and it was the

00:56:57.419 --> 00:57:02.729
wildest thing to process that, where
he is like, whoopee, I'm loaded.

00:57:02.729 --> 00:57:05.069
And the project did great,
and things like that.

00:57:05.609 --> 00:57:06.839
But he did not feel great.

00:57:07.669 --> 00:57:10.069
He looked like a competent,
reliable leader who got results.

00:57:10.069 --> 00:57:12.769
But inside he admitted to me that he did
not feel as proud as he thought he would.

00:57:13.279 --> 00:57:14.599
He had avoided conflict.

00:57:14.659 --> 00:57:16.879
He kept his approval rating
high, and he stayed comfortable.

00:57:17.689 --> 00:57:21.709
But he'd also stayed silent and he let
external validation steer his ship.

00:57:22.549 --> 00:57:24.409
That's the difference that
we've been talking about.

00:57:24.649 --> 00:57:27.949
Marcus chose character without
integrity, and while it worked in

00:57:27.949 --> 00:57:31.759
the short run, told me there's still
a part of him wondering what might

00:57:31.759 --> 00:57:33.079
have happened if he had spoken up.

00:57:34.139 --> 00:57:37.379
Let's tie this back to the
concepts around emotional maturity

00:57:37.379 --> 00:57:38.969
and then external validation.

00:57:39.509 --> 00:57:42.929
I think there's a thread running through
every example so far in the episode,

00:57:42.929 --> 00:57:46.739
whether you, again, are a law firm, tech
company battling works anywhere else.

00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:49.079
The real pivot point is the same.

00:57:49.289 --> 00:57:52.019
Emotional maturity means moving
from letting external validation

00:57:52.019 --> 00:57:55.139
dictate your choices to letting
your internal values guide them.

00:57:55.829 --> 00:57:58.799
Angelique anchored herself to her
values even when it cost her or Marcus

00:57:58.799 --> 00:58:02.069
stayed tethered to approval even when
it chipped away at his sense of self.

00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:06.299
And that's the crossroads we all
face over and over and over again.

00:58:06.539 --> 00:58:10.589
Now, let's take this outta the courtroom
and the boardroom for a moment, and

00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:14.459
let's go into the world of faith,
specifically in high demand religion.

00:58:15.509 --> 00:58:18.719
Imagine you've been
deeply involved for years.

00:58:18.959 --> 00:58:22.319
You've held leadership positions, you've
taught classes, you've been there for

00:58:22.319 --> 00:58:24.059
weddings and funerals and youth events.

00:58:24.569 --> 00:58:26.009
This is where you got your social capital.

00:58:26.069 --> 00:58:30.519
This is where you enjoyed rites of
passage, your community, and you've had

00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:34.599
moments where the community has been
an incredible source of comfort and

00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:35.919
moments where it's been challenging.

00:58:36.249 --> 00:58:40.269
But overall, you think, these are my
people and this is where I belong.

00:58:40.269 --> 00:58:41.949
This is where I would
find value and purpose.

00:58:42.699 --> 00:58:47.769
And one day your teenage child comes
to you and says, mom, dad, I'm gay.

00:58:48.849 --> 00:58:51.939
This is where character and integrity
can point in different directions.

00:58:52.479 --> 00:58:55.509
Character in this context might
mean continuing to fit the mold of

00:58:55.509 --> 00:58:56.979
what your faith community expects.

00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:00.579
You might even tell your
child, Hey, I love you, but.

00:59:01.374 --> 00:59:02.784
You know what you're doing isn't right.

00:59:03.684 --> 00:59:06.714
, You can avoid speaking up publicly because
you don't wanna jeopardize your standing.

00:59:07.674 --> 00:59:10.284
So then you follow all the rules, even
if you don't fully agree with them.

00:59:10.284 --> 00:59:13.374
'cause it's too uncomfortable
to speak up even at the risk of

00:59:13.374 --> 00:59:16.614
potentially losing your kid, because
that's what a good member does.

00:59:16.944 --> 00:59:19.364
You keep your seat at the table,
but you tuck away part of your

00:59:19.364 --> 00:59:20.564
child's identity to do it.

00:59:21.914 --> 00:59:26.024
Integrity on the other hand, means
aligning your words and actions with your

00:59:26.024 --> 00:59:27.974
deepest values, even if that costs you.

00:59:28.454 --> 00:59:31.604
And it might mean telling your faith
leaders, Hey, I support my child fully.

00:59:31.634 --> 00:59:32.774
I didn't know what I didn't know.

00:59:32.774 --> 00:59:38.374
And now I'm interacting with a situation
and I realize that this is how I feel.

00:59:38.494 --> 00:59:40.834
I support my child fully and I believe.

00:59:41.254 --> 00:59:42.454
Our community should too.

00:59:43.444 --> 00:59:47.014
And it might mean challenging policies
that you once defended blindly.

00:59:47.494 --> 00:59:51.484
You risk disapproval, you most likely will
not be considered for leadership roles.

00:59:51.484 --> 00:59:53.344
Maybe even friendships
disappear, unfortunately.

00:59:53.344 --> 00:59:54.724
And that is one of the
most difficult things.

00:59:54.724 --> 00:59:57.334
Or people that say,
Hey, we're we're close.

00:59:57.334 --> 00:59:58.984
You're like a brother or sister.

00:59:59.014 --> 01:00:00.154
We're best friends.

01:00:00.754 --> 01:00:06.754
Unless you decide to become your
best version of yourself, then

01:00:06.754 --> 01:00:07.894
I don't wanna do that anymore.

01:00:08.764 --> 01:00:12.604
But you also wanna keep your child's
trust and your self-respect and your

01:00:12.604 --> 01:00:15.994
alignment with the values and love
and compassion and justice that drew

01:00:15.994 --> 01:00:17.254
you to your faith in the first place.

01:00:18.784 --> 01:00:19.984
Now, let's go one step further.

01:00:19.984 --> 01:00:22.654
Imagine years later you
discover your spouse has been

01:00:22.654 --> 01:00:24.094
unfaithful and it's devastating.

01:00:24.544 --> 01:00:26.794
But the two of you go to
therapy and you do the work.

01:00:26.794 --> 01:00:30.334
You are consistent and it's uncomfortable
and it's icky, and you know people are

01:00:30.334 --> 01:00:34.384
talking, but you get the tools that you
never had before and maybe it's against

01:00:34.384 --> 01:00:37.984
the odds, but your marriage, it does
become stronger than it has ever been.

01:00:39.109 --> 01:00:42.169
Now, you would think your community
would celebrate that healing, right?

01:00:42.979 --> 01:00:45.739
But instead, you are treated
like a second class citizen.

01:00:45.769 --> 01:00:48.739
You hear the whispers, you're passed
over for positions of authority.

01:00:49.244 --> 01:00:52.094
. It's almost like you're not
picked for the, the proverbial

01:00:52.094 --> 01:00:53.294
spiritual kickball team.

01:00:54.104 --> 01:00:58.214
Whether you are the betrayer or the
betrayed, you're now quietly excluded

01:00:58.214 --> 01:00:59.594
from certain leadership roles.

01:01:00.074 --> 01:01:04.484
People treat you with pity or suspicion
or judgment because in their eyes, you are

01:01:04.484 --> 01:01:10.484
now damaged goods one of the parts of that
that stings the most is the treatment that

01:01:10.484 --> 01:01:13.904
flies in the face of the very Christian
values, redemption, grace, restoration,

01:01:13.904 --> 01:01:17.264
all or welcome at the table that you
thought were at the heart of your faith.

01:01:18.224 --> 01:01:20.294
And that's really today's theme.

01:01:20.414 --> 01:01:23.564
That's what it looks like in real
life when character is about playing

01:01:23.564 --> 01:01:25.034
the part the community expects.

01:01:25.064 --> 01:01:29.204
You might stay in good standing, but at
the cost of authenticity, when integrity

01:01:29.204 --> 01:01:33.254
is about living your values consistently,
even when it means losing status, you

01:01:33.254 --> 01:01:34.634
might find yourself on the outside.

01:01:35.264 --> 01:01:39.604
So in both this lGBTQ plus example
and the marriage example, the

01:01:39.604 --> 01:01:43.204
tension is the same one that we've
been talking about all episode.

01:01:43.834 --> 01:01:49.564
Do I choose comfort and get approval and
belonging on someone else's terms or do

01:01:49.564 --> 01:01:53.704
I have the courage to choose alignment
and authenticity and belong to myself?

01:01:54.304 --> 01:01:57.784
One protects your position,
the other protects your soul.

01:01:58.654 --> 01:02:02.704
And in both of these faith community
scenarios, the parent of a gay child

01:02:02.704 --> 01:02:05.554
and the couple who rebuilt their
marriage, the hardest truth is this.

01:02:05.554 --> 01:02:08.194
Sometimes integrity will put you at
odds with the very community that you

01:02:08.194 --> 01:02:11.164
have loved and served and you still
want to be a part of that community,

01:02:11.824 --> 01:02:14.854
but I promise you it will never
put you at odds with your own soul.

01:02:15.244 --> 01:02:19.184
I've worked with so many people over the
years that have navigated a faith journey,

01:02:19.184 --> 01:02:24.734
a faith crisis, a faith deconstruction,
and have come out the other side feeling

01:02:24.854 --> 01:02:30.404
even closer to the divine because they
now realize that they are a child of God

01:02:31.004 --> 01:02:32.924
with their God-given talents and abilities

01:02:33.051 --> 01:02:36.706
the way they let their light
so shine is to be themselves.

01:02:37.636 --> 01:02:39.946
And, let me end calling upon
my Christian roots here.

01:02:40.456 --> 01:02:43.456
For those who speak fluent Christianity,
I've been thinking a lot lately about

01:02:43.516 --> 01:02:47.266
the verse that talks about God is the
same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

01:02:47.686 --> 01:02:51.676
And then the idea that God is
love, his love is unconditional.

01:02:52.246 --> 01:02:55.516
If his love is unconditional,
which I believe it is, then his

01:02:55.516 --> 01:02:58.666
unconditional love is also the same
yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

01:02:59.326 --> 01:03:02.086
Now, from a differentiation standpoint,
that means God knows exactly who

01:03:02.086 --> 01:03:06.706
he is, regardless of whether we as
imperfect humans, make mistakes or not.

01:03:07.211 --> 01:03:08.806
And actually I think
that's the whole point.

01:03:09.106 --> 01:03:12.166
We are supposed to be imperfect
because that's how we learn.

01:03:12.166 --> 01:03:13.186
That's the human condition.

01:03:13.846 --> 01:03:18.246
So whenever I find myself thinking, God
must be mad at me, it's no longer there.

01:03:18.336 --> 01:03:21.606
'cause I now see that's a me issue,
not a him issue, because he's the

01:03:21.606 --> 01:03:24.636
same yesterday, today, and tomorrow,
and his love is not changed.

01:03:24.666 --> 01:03:25.326
It's unconditional.

01:03:26.011 --> 01:03:29.911
I used to wrestle with , the weighty
term repentance, because when people

01:03:29.911 --> 01:03:33.451
say it, it's kind of said with those
serious eyes, the head turns a little bit

01:03:33.451 --> 01:03:37.561
and like a deep nod, thinking that it's
more of this reminder of shortcomings.

01:03:38.161 --> 01:03:42.071
But if you dig into its meaning,
I think it's pronounced, metanoia,

01:03:42.941 --> 01:03:47.111
it means a change of mind or
direction, turning back toward love.

01:03:47.921 --> 01:03:49.961
And that's when I realized,
okay, repentance isn't about

01:03:49.961 --> 01:03:51.311
shame, it's about realignment.

01:03:51.341 --> 01:03:52.806
It's about returning to a safe.

01:03:53.531 --> 01:03:56.861
Secure attachment, A safe
home base after wandering.

01:03:57.221 --> 01:04:00.881
It's like coming home and , your
parents have a nice home cooked meal

01:04:01.091 --> 01:04:04.391
and they want to give you a hug and
say, tell me what's going on, champ.

01:04:04.491 --> 01:04:05.211
How was the day?

01:04:06.031 --> 01:04:08.521
That's exactly how I wanna live,
not as somebody who's bad, but

01:04:08.521 --> 01:04:09.391
as somebody who's becoming.

01:04:10.021 --> 01:04:13.201
And then I will gladly turn
back again and again and again.

01:04:13.201 --> 01:04:16.891
I will repent on a minute by minute
basis because I'm turning back to

01:04:16.891 --> 01:04:20.801
the secure attachment of a heavenly
being who is saying, you're good.

01:04:21.461 --> 01:04:22.031
I love you.

01:04:22.391 --> 01:04:24.941
And I'm saying, yeah, remember the thing
I did over there kind of messed up.

01:04:24.941 --> 01:04:25.781
They're like, you're good.

01:04:26.141 --> 01:04:26.471
Love you.

01:04:27.996 --> 01:04:30.576
'Cause that is how we grow and
we find ourselves by doing.

01:04:31.116 --> 01:04:36.336
By exploring, by being, that's how we
unpack these gifts that we hold within

01:04:36.336 --> 01:04:38.196
us and our inherent nature is good.

01:04:38.946 --> 01:04:41.766
So if repentance means turning
back to a loving God, whose love

01:04:41.766 --> 01:04:43.896
never waivers, count me in again.

01:04:43.896 --> 01:04:46.506
I will do it all the time
because that's not about shame.

01:04:46.566 --> 01:04:47.496
It's about a relationship.

01:04:47.886 --> 01:04:48.996
It's a secure attachment.

01:04:49.591 --> 01:04:53.371
John Bulbie, the father of attachment
theory, taught that a secure base is what

01:04:53.371 --> 01:04:56.371
allows us to go out into the world and
explore and make mistakes and learn, and

01:04:56.371 --> 01:04:58.021
then return for safety and reassurance.

01:04:58.021 --> 01:04:59.101
That's how we thrive.

01:04:59.731 --> 01:05:02.881
So now when I turn back to God,
it's not from a place of I'm bad.

01:05:03.571 --> 01:05:05.191
It's from a place of I'm learning.

01:05:05.281 --> 01:05:07.141
I'm doing life for the
very first time as me.

01:05:07.141 --> 01:05:10.291
I'm figuring out as I go and I know
there's a safe place to return to.

01:05:10.291 --> 01:05:13.341
So I am feeling comfortable and
safe to express opinions and to

01:05:13.341 --> 01:05:15.171
try things and figure out who I am.

01:05:15.681 --> 01:05:18.081
And that's the heartbeat of
what we're talking about today.

01:05:18.111 --> 01:05:21.531
Whether you are in a high powered law firm
or a tech company, or a faith community,

01:05:21.771 --> 01:05:25.791
or just in your living room the question's
the same, am I making my choices for

01:05:25.791 --> 01:05:28.221
approval or for alignment with my values?

01:05:28.221 --> 01:05:29.421
Do I even know what my values are?

01:05:30.081 --> 01:05:31.281
Character will help you fit in.

01:05:31.491 --> 01:05:33.021
Integrity will help you stand tall.

01:05:33.471 --> 01:05:36.381
Character might keep you comfortable,
but integrity will keep you whole.

01:05:36.801 --> 01:05:39.531
And if we can anchor ourselves to
a secure sense of self, whether

01:05:39.531 --> 01:05:42.201
that's rooted in faith or values,
or a deep knowing of who we are.

01:05:42.871 --> 01:05:45.991
I promise you, we can navigate
the pressure, the criticism, the

01:05:45.991 --> 01:05:49.321
temptation to conform without
losing ourselves in the process.

01:05:49.441 --> 01:05:52.301
And that's part of being able
to think critically and to self

01:05:52.301 --> 01:05:53.801
confront and to figure out.

01:05:53.801 --> 01:05:55.281
Turns out , I'm a pretty good person.

01:05:55.941 --> 01:05:59.001
'cause at the end of the day, integrity
is about coming home to your values, to

01:05:59.001 --> 01:06:02.331
your truth, or to a God whose love is
the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

01:06:02.761 --> 01:06:05.791
And that my friends is a
home worth coming back to.

01:06:07.111 --> 01:06:12.781
So before I turn to the Wonderful,
actually will not go to the

01:06:12.781 --> 01:06:15.661
music of my wonderful friend,
Aurora Florence and her song.

01:06:15.661 --> 01:06:17.941
It's wonderful because, , I
wanna invite you to take just a

01:06:17.971 --> 01:06:21.051
few minutes with me and, lemme
guide you on a little meditation.

01:06:22.371 --> 01:06:26.991
And so as it ends, and if you
are still feeling the vibe and

01:06:26.991 --> 01:06:29.301
you're not driving, then just be.

01:06:30.291 --> 01:06:33.081
So, let's slow down and
let's let everything we've

01:06:33.081 --> 01:06:34.731
talked about really sink in.

01:06:35.481 --> 01:06:39.111
Let's do the short guided meditation
and help you connect with your values.

01:06:39.796 --> 01:06:41.506
And find that secure base.

01:06:41.926 --> 01:06:44.986
'cause you can always return
to it, whether you're facing a

01:06:44.986 --> 01:06:47.716
high pressure decision or just
moving through everyday life.

01:06:48.466 --> 01:06:53.476
So if you are able, if you're not driving,
probably not gonna be good on a treadmill.

01:06:54.266 --> 01:06:56.876
Find a comfortable spot and
just gimme a few minutes.

01:06:58.166 --> 01:07:00.086
Title this one, coming
Home to Your Values.

01:07:02.276 --> 01:07:06.116
So let's take a moment now to
let everything that we've talked

01:07:06.116 --> 01:07:08.726
about settle in, wherever you are.

01:07:09.656 --> 01:07:12.446
Allow your body to find
a comfortable position.

01:07:13.646 --> 01:07:18.476
You can be sitting up, you can be laying
down, and if you feel comfortable, you

01:07:18.476 --> 01:07:21.446
might close your eyes or soften your gaze.

01:07:22.526 --> 01:07:26.276
And now take a slow, deep
breath in through the nose

01:07:29.546 --> 01:07:30.656
and out through the mouth.

01:07:33.641 --> 01:07:34.781
Again, in

01:07:38.441 --> 01:07:39.131
and then out,

01:07:42.791 --> 01:07:45.041
and then you can return
to your regular breathing.

01:07:46.931 --> 01:07:50.831
And if you're laying down, if you're
sitting in a chair, I would love for you

01:07:50.831 --> 01:07:57.131
to feel the weight of your body supported
by the chair or the couch or the floor

01:07:57.131 --> 01:08:00.581
beneath you, and notice your feet.

01:08:02.981 --> 01:08:06.431
Bring your awareness to them if
they're connected to the ground.

01:08:07.391 --> 01:08:10.541
And feel the steadiness
that's been there all along.

01:08:11.891 --> 01:08:13.721
And let your breath be easy.

01:08:14.321 --> 01:08:15.251
No need to control it.

01:08:15.281 --> 01:08:16.181
Just notice it.

01:08:16.331 --> 01:08:17.051
Just breathe.

01:08:18.521 --> 01:08:24.371
Now, bring to mind something of value
that feels really important to you.

01:08:25.631 --> 01:08:31.331
It might be love, it might be
honesty, curiosity, authenticity.

01:08:32.336 --> 01:08:34.586
Justice, compassion.

01:08:36.116 --> 01:08:37.736
There's actually no right or wrong.

01:08:38.216 --> 01:08:41.786
Just take a notice of
what rises to the surface.

01:08:42.206 --> 01:08:42.866
Check that out.

01:08:43.946 --> 01:08:50.066
And imagine this value is a light
within you and it's steady, and

01:08:50.066 --> 01:08:54.326
it doesn't flicker with other
people's approval or disapproval.

01:08:54.656 --> 01:08:58.646
It just shines quietly, constantly.

01:09:00.326 --> 01:09:05.726
And now think of a moment in the past or
the present, or you can even imagine one

01:09:05.726 --> 01:09:11.036
in the future where you've had to, or you
will choose between what was comfortable

01:09:12.026 --> 01:09:13.706
and what was true to your value.

01:09:15.026 --> 01:09:17.006
If you chose comfort, it's no judgment.

01:09:17.216 --> 01:09:19.316
Just notice what that
feels like in your body.

01:09:19.346 --> 01:09:20.216
Where do you feel that?

01:09:21.506 --> 01:09:24.536
If you chose integrity, I want
you to notice that feeling too.

01:09:25.826 --> 01:09:29.696
Either way, see if you can
soften around the story.

01:09:30.701 --> 01:09:32.471
Because you're not here to grade yourself.

01:09:33.011 --> 01:09:34.301
There is no right or wrong.

01:09:34.301 --> 01:09:35.681
You're here to understand.

01:09:37.391 --> 01:09:40.931
Now, imagine what it would
feel like to live from that

01:09:40.931 --> 01:09:43.721
value more and more each day

01:09:45.731 --> 01:09:46.721
to return to it.

01:09:46.751 --> 01:09:53.051
When you wander to treat that value
like a safe home, you can come back

01:09:53.051 --> 01:09:58.271
to no matter where you've been or what
happened, or how long you've been away

01:09:58.271 --> 01:10:03.911
from it, maybe that returning feeling
feels like your faith in the divine.

01:10:05.261 --> 01:10:08.771
Maybe it feels like the
unconditional love of a parent or

01:10:08.771 --> 01:10:11.351
a partner, or a good friend, a pet.

01:10:12.851 --> 01:10:16.661
Maybe it's simply the deep knowing
that you are actually okay.

01:10:17.261 --> 01:10:23.351
You're worthy, you're lovable, even when
you stumble, and this is your secure base.

01:10:23.411 --> 01:10:24.251
It's always here.

01:10:25.241 --> 01:10:25.901
It's always steady.

01:10:27.956 --> 01:10:33.536
Since we close up, I want you to take
one more deep breath in through the nose,

01:10:37.496 --> 01:10:38.786
let it go out through the mouth,

01:10:40.916 --> 01:10:45.956
and just carry this value with you
gently into the rest of your day.

01:10:46.196 --> 01:10:48.656
Kinda like a compass
just quietly guiding you.

01:10:50.126 --> 01:10:55.526
'cause remember, you can always return
to it again and again, and you can return

01:10:55.526 --> 01:11:01.406
to this meditation again and again and
see if something new comes up for you.

01:11:03.206 --> 01:11:09.446
When you're ready, open your
eyes, rejoin the space around you.

01:11:10.256 --> 01:11:15.776
I am so grateful that you took the time
to be here with me today for this podcast.

01:11:16.556 --> 01:11:20.096
Reach out if you have questions
or thoughts and we'll see you

01:11:20.096 --> 01:11:21.806
next time on the virtual couch.