Hey everybody.
Welcome to the virtual couch.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
And, , , as a therapist, I've got tissues, two boxes flanking the
couch that is right in front of me.
, But I'm sitting down so why actually take.
, Five seconds to go get one of those when I could root around in
my bag for five minutes trying to find what eventually turned out to
be a paper towel to blow my nose.
, Did I already say I'm your host, Tony Overbay?
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist , I'm not your therapist.
Although, to be fair, I actually am a lot of therapist.
Therapist with, technically I might be your therapist.
Therapist, but either way.
Everything I share here is for informational and maybe a little bit
of entertainment purposes only I, this is not a substitute for professional
care or diagnosis or treatment, , I am here to share, not to diagnose.
So please find a good therapist.
'cause that is what matters most.
That is going to be something that I think I'm gonna say repeatedly.
But today I wanna start with a question.
Would you rather be liked or would you rather be true to yourself?
Now, if you answer immediately, I would rather be true to myself.
What if being true to yourself could cost you something big?
Like your job, your marriage, your faith community, . Your financial
security, your kids, because I think we often tell ourselves, I'm sure
I would do the right thing just because that's the right thing to do.
But when we're actually in a moment, suddenly there are other factors in
play that we maybe didn't anticipate.
, Belonging, financial security, the weight of family expectations or
even the, the dread of disappointing people that we respect, which we
may not give enough credit for.
But I do work with a lot of people pleasers and I think I am a
recovering people, pleaser myself.
So that's the heart of today's conversation.
We are going to explore the difference between two of my favorite things,
character and integrity, and how they overlap and how they differ,
and why it matters in some of life's most high charged arenas.
A couple of weeks ago, I introduced the concept of five high charged
areas that people bring into the couple's therapist realm.
We're talking about religion, marriage, parenting, sex, and politics.
We're gonna hit on at least four outta those five today, and we're gonna take
a look at what it means to move from being known for your character, which
can be a great thing to actually then living with integrity, even when the
pressure's on, and the cost is very real.
And just a quick heads up before we get started at the end of today's
episode, I am going to guide you through a short meditation.
To help you connect with your values and build the kind of integrity
that we'll be talking about today.
And also share how you can get a one page cheat sheet of this episode
along with my values exercise, which is, it's a really simple, but I think
it's a powerful tool to help you start discovering who you truly are.
Because if you really don't know what your values are, and again,
values and we'll probably talk about that later in this episode, are not
a destination that you achieve it.
It isn't.
I don't have a value of getting a million dollars.
A value is more of a direction, so you'll, you can always be
heading in a certain direction.
And I'll make this brief.
Come cruise with me and my friend Julie De Jesus.
I am not saying that the highlight of the cruise will be me eating
my weight in softer, but I'm, I'm also not saying that that wouldn't
be the highlight of the cruise.
It's January 24th through the 29th, 2026, and I'll be joining Julie De
Jesus, formerly known as Julie Lee.
ICU living cruise, and we're talking about five nights in the
Western Caribbean aboard Royal.
Caribbean, or is it Royal Caribbean and the Western Caribbean.
But we'll have creative workshops.
We will have nightly group dinners and the kind of conversations that
I think will make you feel alive.
But we're gonna dive into topics like mental health and emotional resilience.
I'll be covering emotional immaturity and maybe some emotional maturity.
We might even start talking a little bit about, uh, narcissistic traits
and tendencies in relationships.
In between you will have beaches and buffets, maybe a lava cake or
two, and to parents kids sale free.
So you can stop googling cheap babysitter right now, book early to
get your special access to small group dining and events with Julie and me.
And details are at julie deus.com/cruise or I'll have
those in the show notes today.
. So let's get started then, shall we?
. Character is shaped by the moral qualities that we do show over time, and I think
that some of today will sound like we're talking about the same thing, and I
think that's why it is so important to really dig deep into what this difference
between character and integrity.
Character includes the traits that we're known for dependability, kindness,
ambition, but integrity is something subtler, but it is so much more powerful.
Integrity is about the harmony between what you say you believe and then how you
act, especially when nobody's watching.
But I also think it's becoming more and more prevalent to see what your
integrity is when everybody is watching, because it's when your actions align
with your values, even at a cost.
So I think you can maybe see why I've already tried to set the table of
if you aren't really sure what your values are or know really who you are.
It can be hard to operate from a place of integrity, and that
is not meant with any shame.
So here are some examples, and per usual, they are all based
on real situations, real people.
But the details have been changed for the sake of confidentiality.
So I want you to think about a daughter, or it could be a son who decides
mid-season that they do not wanna play soccer anymore and they're playing
for a competitive club soccer team.
Now a parent driven by character might insist that you don't quit.
You know, we finish what we start in this family to maintain the
family's image of dependability.
But a parent driven maybe more by integrity, might recognize the
courage it took for their daughter to be honest and say, Hey, I'm
proud of you for knowing yourself.
Now let's see if we can figure out a respectful way that you
can step away from the team.
That would be uncomfortable for the dad because now he risked the
judgment from the other parents.
It can trigger, I think projection too.
Maybe he personally values teamwork and perseverance.
Those mean a lot to him.
So her choice feels like it's a reflection on him.
Now, we'll talk more today about differentiation, but that would be
the key here because he can hold his discomfort and still allow
his daughter to define who she is.
And honestly, what would be better for the team, A player who is disengaged
, and they're gonna prove to everybody that they don't want to be there.
They're there because you don't quit.
Or somebody that had the integrity to say, I realize now this isn't for
me, and I genuinely don't wanna let you down by pretending that it is.
That's this nuance, this fine line or the real difference
between character and integrity.
Now, before I start getting emails saying, Tony, then are you telling
us that kids can just quit anything?
I absolutely hear you, because I honestly, I have my own stories
of being pushed not to quit when I was a kid, and sure enough that
perseverance became a strength for me.
There are also areas where I genuinely resent the fact that
I was not heard or understood.
So I do.
I do understand.
To me, that's just more proof of how messy this all is and how much more important
it is to understand these concepts.
'cause at some point, you a parent, the human get to make the call.
That's why I just love the idea of a muse.
Now, a muse isn't the final answer.
A muse is inspiration.
It sparks reflection.
So that's all I'm doing here.
I'm sharing muses that I've gathered through my experience as a human,
married to another human, almost 35 years raising for other humans.
I was gonna say little humans, but one of them is much larger than I am because
so much of our interaction with people is about asking, well hey, what would you do?
Or What do you think I should do?
Or, let me tell you what you should do.
And in my humble opinion, that is the part that often misses the point.
'cause we are all here on this earth navigating life for the very first time.
And I want to throw in the joke that I like saying that typically goes over to
a chorus of crickets of, or your second time, depending on your belief system.
But if you really do take nothing else from this, I hope that you'll
hear that it's okay to be you.
It's okay to not know.
It's okay to doubt and to fear the unknown, and to desperately
want to know what the right answer is because we want certainty.
Ultimately, everything does boil down to a me issue.
And that's actually a really beautiful thing because it means
the work of integrity is always right there in front of us.
So I have some examples again, more that are not just, uh, in the
sports realm, but are based off of real examples, real situations.
So picture, uh, an employee named Marcus.
He works in finance now.
Marcus is known for his , character traits.
He's dependable, he's likable.
He's always the first to volunteer for late nights and weekends.
That's our boy Marcus.
People describe Marcus as ambitious.
Marcus is a team player and people know that Marcus is gonna rise up
the corporate ladder, but one day Marcus's boss says, Hey, can you, uh,
can you adjust one of these reports to make the numbers look just a
little more favorable for investors?
Because I don't really like the way that those are coming across
now in this particular situation.
And it, it was a bit complicated, but it isn't necessarily illegal the
way that he was going about doing it, but it was definitely shady.
Now if Marcus complies, here's the key.
His character remains intact.
He looks reliable.
He keeps the boss happy.
He's still climbing the corporate ladder.
He's still the ambitious guy doing what is asked of him.
Good old Marcus.
I can always count on him.
Here comes integrity.
Integrity asks something different.
Marcus knows this report will influence people's financial decisions and
if he's aligned with his values and let's say he has a value of honesty.
Transparency, then he can't manipulate the data.
Now in this particular situation, he did speak up and he risked the fallout
and we talked about it in great detail.
, He realized that was most likely gonna jeopardize a promotion.
It cost him approval, but it did keep him aligned truly with who he is.
Now, the difficult part there is that, I wish I could tell you that now,
Marcus is the CEO of the company.
, Marcus did not get promoted for a long period of time, and then he
eventually left the company, but he left with his integrity intact.
Another example, imagine a close friendship.
Sarah Is known as the kind friend, the one who always is encouraging,
is always supportive, always says what people want to hear.
That's her character.
But then her best friend starts dating someone that Sarah can see
is manipulative and controlling.
And this was literally why she came in to work with me.
After listening to a bunch of podcasts around emotional immaturity and
narcissistic traits and tendencies, she was so worried about her friend
that she didn't know what to do.
Now, Sarah has a choice.
If she sticks with character, she'll smile, nod, and wave, stay
supportive because that's her role.
You know, Sarah, she's, she's always dependable.
She's always so kind, and she's not gonna rock the boat.
Now integrity means that she risks tension by saying, Hey, I care
about you too much to stay quiet.
Now it is a me thing, my opinion, but something feels off here and
I just need to really be honest.
So character does preserve comfort, but integrity invites conflict.
But when it is done from truly a place of alignment with one's values, it
really does come from a place of love.
Now, there is no right or wrong answer here because I want to ask you,
which friend would you rather have?
The one who keeps the peace or the one who's honest when it counts?
Because I, I would imagine there are plenty of us, and I might consider
myself this at times, I would hope that I'm moving away from this,
but would rather have that friend that is gonna say, you're awesome.
They're great, because am I in a position to take any kind of criticism,
even if it could be for my benefit?
And then let's do one more, and then we're gonna get into
the deep end of the pool today.
Think about somebody who is deeply involved in their faith community.
They, they teach, they serve, they're the model member that is their character,
but then their child comes out as gay.
And suddenly the community's vibe of, Hey all are welcome.
It doesn't quite ring the same for this person.
Now, if they stay quiet, they can maintain their character.
They can maintain their position, they can maintain their role
as the good, dependable church member willing to do anything.
For the church community.
But if they really live with integrity and they speak up or even step away
to honor their values of, of love or authenticity, then that choice may cost
them belonging in a community that has always felt like family, where they
have got their validation or their rights of passage, their social capital.
But integrity here means they don't sacrifice their child's dignity.
Or what they went on to say their own soul for the sake of appearances to make sure
that everyone else still thought the same of them as emotionally immature people.
And I will maintain that we are all emotionally immature until we're not.
Till we go and interact with the world and learn more about ourselves.
Many of us look outside of ourselves for validation.
So what that looks like is we will tweak, we will accommodate, and we'll even
hide parts of ourselves just to fit in.
But the hope is that as we mature, as we begin to interact with the world
and others, that we start to really figure out who we are and we, we
begin to act from our core values, and that's once we realize that we're
most likely unaware of what we value.
When we can recognize that our current set of values, most likely comes from
our parents, our community, our church, this is what we all believe, or to be a
good member of the family or society or the congregation, then you must believe
X because, well, y that's what the other people believe, and that's where integrity
and purpose start to take root is in recognizing what you really do believe.
, Here's a key point.
Do not get me wrong.
You can remain and believe what your family, your community, or your
church belief that is absolutely okay.
There is no part of me that is telling anyone what they
should think or feel or believe.
The maturation process, though ideally is forged from your own personal journey.
'cause ultimately, you are the one that you're gonna spend the most time with.
So I promise that by understanding who you are, that can be an incredibly
powerful way to live, especially when you actually like the version of you that's
rattle around on the inside of your head.
So today we're gonna look at how that plays out across
a lot of different arenas.
We're gonna talk about big law, big business, religion, and relationships.
And I wanna start in the legal world now.
Why?
Because of an article I read a little while back that
really it's stuck in my craw.
And since we're talking values, one of mine is curiosity.
So I will be right back.
Okay?
So I had to pause and look up the phrase stuck in my craw.
Because I have used that before and I just thought, well, what does that mean?
Right after it left my mouth, so it turns out in the 13th century your
craw referred to your throat or neck, so stuck in your craw literally meant
something that was hard to swallow.
Now, over time, it became a metaphor for something that is difficult to accept
now for me, with a family tendency toward basically like low grade choking spells.
Thank you.
Genetics.
I am imagining now my family will hear me saying.
You gotta gimme a minute.
I've got some pulled pork stuck in my craw, but, but I digress.
So let me, uh, lemme build up the suspense.
I had mentioned that there is this article that really stuck in
the aforementioned craw before I even read the name of the article.
I would love to challenge your confirmation bias , because depending
on one name in this headline, you may already feel pulled in a particular
direction, positive or negative.
I would implore you to trust me my wonderful listeners, that this
episode is not about politics.
It's about learning who you are.
And that can fall on either end or even in the middle of the spectrum of the
political landscape and today's journey , as hopefully you are understanding,
is about integrity and character and what that looks like when it's tested.
So the article I'm talking about, which I only realized after looking
back was from three months ago, and I would've told you it was just a couple
of weeks ago, but I've thought about it so much, is titled The Law Firms That
Appease Trump and Angered their Clients.
It's by Aaron Mulvaney, Emily Glazer, and Ryan Barber, , and , Josh Dawsey.
, This article has stuck with me because think, if I'm being honest, I don't
know exactly how I would've handled the situation that those law firms faced.
And I'm noticing that does frustrate me a little bit.
But I wanna model the same kind of honest introspection and, uh, self confrontation
that I encourage with my own clients.
I am not looking for your validation or your condemnation, but, but I do
welcome the thoughts and feelings that this may stir as we go along.
And then quick aside here, I promise this is relevant.
One of my clients once had me take this Dungeons and Dragons personality
test, and apparently if we were in the middle of a, some epic battle with
forks and ogres and werewolves and all the other terrifying mythical creatures
charging the front lines, my role would be to hang back, not, not fighting,
not swinging in ax or a bow staff.
No.
According to this test, I was strolling after the dust had settled and
say to the, the battered warriors.
So, uh, how are we feeling about that skirmish?
Which I thought was a really good read.
Now, the client that asked me to take this was nearly enraged.
He was saying, how can you not be out there on the front lines with us?
To which I replied, a, this is not real.
And two, I took that personality test as accurately as a human being can possibly
take a DD themed personality test.
No doubt that that thing had been created by a very seasoned,
very serious dungeon master.
And apparently my character sheet does not come with a sword.
It comes with a clipboard and it didn't say a box of tissues.
And actually it would be more like an iPad, but.
Here's the thing though.
This test, even if I thought it was kind of silly, actually ties right back to
what we're talking about In that world.
My character might be seen as weak.
He's not a fighter.
He doesn't belong on the front lines, but my integrity would be showing up
exactly who I am, doing what I do best.
Hopefully helping people process and heal and move forward.
Even in fantasy land, it's the same question.
Do I twist myself to fit the role that other people expect or do
I align with who I really am?
Let's use this article as our first muse.
Again, not about politics, it's more about integrity.
'cause the question isn't really, what did these firms do?
It's what would I have done?
Or what would you have done if you were in their shoes?
And maybe more importantly, what does that say about my own values?
Or even does this help me better define or understand my values
because it's causing me to think.
The whole point here is not guilt or shame.
You're not doing something bad and you're certainly not bad.
This is about giving yourself permission to be curious about
who you are and how you operate.
Now here's I think what a lot of people will do.
They'll say, well, I understand I would never do that.
What we might actually be doing is soothing our own discomfort.
'cause the truth is, if you've never been in a particular situation, you
do not know exactly how you respond.
None of us do.
You can prepare and visualize and, and meditate and manifest and set intentions
about the kind of person that you want to be, and that work absolutely matters.
But I think honesty with yourself also matters.
And part of honesty is admitting, okay.
Honestly, I don't know how I would act until I'm there now.
I believe I would act a certain way.
It's not a flaw, and that's part of being human.
And if I can't know how I'd act in every situation, then how could
I possibly decide how somebody else should have acted in theirs?
I don't live in their body, I don't carry their history, and they don't carry mine.
And that's why integrity is so personal.
And it's so hard.
It's so difficult because people have no idea what someone else is going
through or what they bring to the table.
And often it's because neither do you or me until we're in that situation.
So with that framework in mind, let me walk you through a few moments from this
article that really hit me and I'll share why I think that they struck such a chord.
One of the earliest firms targeted by these executive orders was
called Paul Weiss, and apparently they're one of the biggest and most
prestigious firms in the country.
We were talking about fees in the billions and think it was
attorneys over a thousand.
Now, instead of suing, they struck a deal with the White House.
The fallout, and this is all according to this article.
The general counsel of a major financial company said that when she
heard Paul Weiss had made the deal, she said she felt physically ill.
Others said that they had reassured the firm that they would stand by them only
to feel blindsided when the firm caved.
Some companies even pulled their business overnight.
Pause for a second.
Imagine being in that firm's leadership.
Do you take the pragmatic route to protect your partners and
keep these contracts alive?
Or do you hold the line and risk potential implosion and an
attack by a federal government?
And imagine being a young associate at that firm who had spent their entire
we'll say twenties or thirties, uh, as a young associate at that firm vying for
this corner office to become a partner.
Then what does that do all of a sudden to your sense of self or your
sense of trust and belonging now?
Back to the article on the other side, you had firms like Ginner and Block.
They fought back in court even though it meant anxious clients and the
risk of losing business on their website, they posted that giving in
would mean compromising our ability to zealously advocate for all of
our clients and then capitulating to unconstitutional government coercion,
which is simply not in our DNA and that phrase alone, not in our DNA.
That feels like the language of integrity.
Is a firm saying we know who we are and we're not gonna portray
that no matter what it costs us.
And before I go on in the article, I think that's one of these fascinating
things, and I guess I'll say it's a plug for my men's emotional architects.
Group, so reach out if you're interested.
But the more that that one can figure out who they are and then
they can stand confident in who they are, then they may not find
themselves being as much of a people pleaser as they've been in the past.
'cause they're not just trying to give up to go along or to get out of
that particular moment that they are starting to become more emotionally
consistent, emotionally safe, verbally safe, verbally consistent,
and they start to live by this.
This integrity and you can trust that when they say they will do something,
they will do it, or they will be very open about reasons why they can't.
And so even though it might be upsetting because you maybe liked the version
of them at one point that would say, Hey, I'll take care of it, whatever
it is that felt better in the moment, but then they consistently did not
take care of it, whatever it was.
And over time then you realize I really can't count on this person.
And so I think that's so interesting.
In this article, when you put that in the context of companies that had
hired these law firms, and I will say that I found that some of the
billable hours or the hourly rates were anywhere from one to $3,000 an hour.
So if you are paying that kind of money and you want this firm to
really be there and have your back, I think that that's what this.
This language was saying that this phrase is not in our DNA, that they're
saying that how could our, how could our clients trust us if then we go
against our core values and don't operate from a place of integrity?
So back to the article, the, the Ripple Effect that said was fascinating
because some big corporations like Oracle, Morgan Stanley, and Microsoft
for a time started moving work away from the firms that signed deals
and toward the ones that resisted.
Now why?
And here, here it is, because if a firm wouldn't even stand up for
itself, how could a client trust it to stand up for them in the courtroom?
That's where I think if you see that someone in a relationship won't
stand up for themselves, how can you trust that they will have your back?
I often say, when I'm talking about helping men in particular, stay
grounded, stay less emotionally reactive, learning how to respond
actually instead of react that.
When you look at it that way, if someone can rattle me with just their words, then
heaven forbid if the saber tooth tiger comes walking through the living room,
then the person that, uh, that I am I wanna say is trusting me to feel safe
is definitely not going to feel safe.
One general counsel put it pretty bluntly, they said, if you don't have a hard
line, you don't have any line at all.
And then inside these firms that made deals, the fallout was pretty intense
at places like a firm called Skadden.
Latham and Kirkland Younger Associates were resigning.
One associate wrote in their departure email that they refused to
sleepwalk toward authoritarianism.
Partners left too.
Even managing partners reportedly grew emotional as they explained
to their colleagues why they felt they had no choice but to settle.
So think about that leaders breaking down in front of their teams because they knew
that the decision wasn't just business.
It was somewhat existential because their integrity was on the line.
There were also no doubt situations where people were leveraged financially and they
had perhaps lived beyond their means and were counting on the next promotion or the
next big bonus check to help them get out of the financial place that they were in.
And so then that's where I know every person has to make
this decision on their own.
So why am I sharing all this?
Because while these stories are, we're talking about billion dollar firms
and executive orders, the underlying question I think is one that we
will all face if we haven't already.
When the pressure is on, do I choose approval or do I choose alignment?
Do I choose integrity?
And if you're tempted to say, well, I would always choose
integrity, I would just say pause.
'cause in real life these decisions aren't abstract.
They, they come with very real costs.
Relationships, belonging, livelihood, financial safety.
And that's exactly why I want to take this conversation into other arenas.
We'll talk about tech, healthcare, faith, friendships, where the same
character versus integrity dilemma shows up in ways that I think
might hit much closer to home.
Now, I say that, and I'm gonna give you two more real examples,
and these both happen to be attorneys, but these are based off
of clients that I had worked with.
. So you have two attorneys.
They're different people, similar roles, but working in two different law firms.
First meet Jordan, Jordan's at a prestigious law firm that
just signed a very lucrative deal with a high profile client.
Maybe someone in the world of politics.
Despite the client's track record of skirting ethical boundaries.
So now Jordan has character.
Jordan is known for being dependable, always on time, mentoring junior
associates, keeping clients happy.
So around the office, Jordan is a very well-liked team player.
But when the firm takes on this controversial client, Jordan keeps quiet.
In fact, Jordan even helps draft some of the legal strategy and just starts
reasoning to me and those around Jordan.
It's really not my job to question leadership 'cause
I am here to do good work.
This is what I am hired to do and what am I supposed to do?
This is, these are my marching orders.
Now the pluses, Jordan is seen as loyal.
They move up the ladder, they get bonuses, they maintain a smooth career.
The minuses, every time they file another motion for that client, there's
just something happening inside.
There's this quiet dissonance.
They know that their work is enabling harm, and they start avoiding
conversations that might bring that discomfort to the surface.
When people say, Hey, what do you do for a living?
Jordan used to love saying, I'm a corporate attorney and I work with these
high profile clients and let me tell you about some of the cases I'm working on.
But Jordan started noticing that they would just not really speak up about
what they did, even though they liked the idea that they were an attorney, but
they were really not enjoying the feeling that they had with the work they did.
Now meet Alexis.
Alexis works at a rival firm, also very highly respected, and
they face a similar situation.
Here is a potential client with questionable ethics, but they
offer the firm a huge retainer.
Alexis's firm decides to pass citing their commitment to pro bono cases
and their existing clients that are in conflict with this new prospect.
And Alexis backs the decision publicly, even volunteers to help defend a
nonprofit that is actually being sued by that same controversial client.
Now, the pluses, Alexis sleeps well at night.
Their professional reputation deepens not just for skill, but for principle.
Their network expands to include other attorneys and organizations
who value them for their integrity.
Now, the minuses, they lose out on billable hours from that big client
and the partners sometimes pass them over for more high profile cases.
Saying that Alexis is a little too idealistic, two attorneys both respected,
one's playing the long game for their career, and the other is playing
the long game for their conscience.
Both have character, they are showing up consistently as they are, but only
one is fully anchored and integrity.
So what's pretty fascinating is that both Jordan and Alexis would describe
themselves as good people, and I will attest to the fact that they are.
But their decision making comes from two very different places.
Jordan's choice is rooted in external validation, approval from partners at the
firm, approval and validation from keeping the peace, avoiding rocking the boat.
It's safer, but it leans heavily on the need to be seen
in a certain light by others.
, It was no surprise as we dug into Jordan's past that Jordan wasn't really
asked a lot of questions growing up.
They were to be seen and not heard.
Jordan didn't really have a whole lot of opinions growing up
because Jordan wasn't asked for their opinion very often, if ever.
So Jordan thought that everything they were doing was pretty normal.
They thought it was pretty fascinating that, yeah, I really don't have a lot
of opinions, but it's probably normal.
But had Jordan's parents been curious with Jordan when they were
young then Jordan would've felt like they were allowed to have opinions.
There would've been curiosity from a primary caregiver who they are
seeking connection and safety with.
So that would've led to Jordan feeling safe to express their opinion, which
would've most likely led to them , being a little more firm in their convictions.
And I'm not saying one is right or wrong right now, we're just
saying this is, this is what it is.
Now, Alexis's choice is rooted in internal validation, internal, not external
validation, because internal is about alignment with personal values, even
at the cost of opportunity or approval.
Alexis is willing to live with the short-term discomfort because
they believe in the long-term game of integrity, for their work.
And this is where emotional maturity comes into play when we
are emotionally immature, which I, I maintain that we all start from
this place of emotional immaturity.
We don't know what we don't know when we're emotionally immature, our identity
is quite frankly, a little fragile.
So we outsource our self-worth to other people's reactions.
We are trying to read the room and try to figure out what do I need to do or
say to get these people to like me.
And I don't want them to think that I, I'm bad.
But as we grow often through the process of figuring out, clarifying our values,
setting, value-based goals, we start to anchor our decisions internally.
And there's our bridge to today's conversation because integrity isn't
just about what you believe, it's about what you do when your beliefs are tested.
You may be a very good person and you have some deep, deep core beliefs,
but when tested, do you withdraw?
Do you play small?
Do you tell yourself the stories to get along is the best thing
right now in the long run?
Even if over time it just doesn't start to feel right.
. It's about what you do when your beliefs are tested.
And to get there, we need to understand the difference between
character and integrity and how emotional maturity transforms both.
I'm a huge acceptance and commitment therapy fan and in act there's a core
distinction between values and goals.
Goals are the things that you can check off a list, win a case, hit billable
hours, become a millionaire, get promoted, get the six pack abs, get the cool car.
Values are the ongoing directions that you move toward, like curiosity, authenticity,
justice, compassion, fairness.
Jordan's decisions might align with short-term goals, keeping their
job secure, check earning, partner approval check, but they're drifting
away from their deeper values.
It was very clear that Jordan did not know what their values
were, which also is normal.
And even when you start to try to figure out your values.
There's a period of time where most likely you're thinking, well, I
know I should value certain things.
Nobody likes to be should on because those values we most likely picked
up from our parents or from our faith community, our neighborhood, our friends.
And so you start with these basically external values.
People are handing you their values and saying, I think this is important,
which is something we're gonna cover in a podcast episode in another week or
two about projection, about the mirror.
That if I can project my values onto you and get you to buy into my
values, then I, they must be right.
So then I'm okay to have my own values versus I, it's
okay for me to have my values.
There's a period right there.
So Alexis's decisions though, on the other hand, may cost them in
immediate goals, but they keep them moving toward those core values.
In the grand scheme of things in the long term, living a life of purpose and values
is far more satisfying than continually trying to figure out a way to get people
to like you because you are handing your power, your sense of self in the hands
of others on a pretty regular basis, and then you are at the whim of their mood.
So this is committed action.
It's doing what matters most, even in the presence of discomfort, you
know, so for Alexis, that discomfort might be fewer billable hours or
whispers about being too idealistic.
For Jordan, it's the quiet inner dissonance that grows over time
when their values are sidelined.
, And let's throw, , another theory that I've only recently
learned about into the mix.
It's called Self-Determination Theory, or SDT.
It was developed by psychologist Edward, I think it's Decky or Desi and Richard Ryan.
And at its heart, it's about what truly drives human motivation and what
makes that motivation sustainable.
So, according to SDT, we all have three basic psychological needs that fuel
our sense of purpose and our wellbeing.
Autonomy.
Competence and relatedness, . So when these needs are met, we
tend to feel more energized, more authentic, and more capable of
living in alignment with our values.
When these things aren't met, we start to feel stuck or disengaged.
Something's wrong with us internally, we start to get resentful.
So you can think of autonomy as having a sense of choice over your actions.
Think of somebody who chooses cases or clients based on their
personal values rather than fear of what their partners will think.
They're not rebelling against authority.
They're steering their own ship, even in choppy waters.
It goes back to every opportunity for them is a chance for them to self confront, to
look inside and grow, even if that might.
Cost them their job.
That's what can be so difficult because I understand that there can
be some pretty tough times where you are financially dependent upon
a job at this particular time.
And it can be scary to then say, , I am gonna live by my values.
Competence then is about feeling effective, feeling capable in what you do.
Think of somebody who takes on a challenging pro bono case that they
believe in, not because it's easy, but because they know it's gonna stretch their
skills, it's gonna deepen their expertise.
And each small win then builds confidence that they can
handle bigger challenges ahead.
And you can start to make sense of the fact that if you are beginning
to find your sense of self purpose values that things are not as scary.
They still may be scary, but you are starting to lean into the
discomfort brace for the discomfort.
Know that I am gonna learn something about myself, even if the
uncomfortable thing is I'm doing something I, I don't know how to do.
I might even have to say things like, I don't know.
Then relatedness.
This third concept is feeling connected to others in a way that's genuine.
Because I promise you, when you are starting to figure out who you are
and developing that sense of self, then you will start to find yourself
around more like-minded people in reciprocal relationships because you
no longer are trying to figure out, how do I get this person to like me?
Because you really do have to start from a place of I like myself.
So if somebody is trying to get me to do something I don't
wanna do, I'm better than that.
That isn't something I'm interested in.
And I don't even really have to try to defend myself.
Just no thanks.
You can think of somebody who works late into the night with a team on a
cause they care about, not because they have to, but because they feel a part
of something bigger than themselves.
And that connection is what fuels them in a way that a paycheck,
never could, A paycheck is nice and necessary, but it just sounds so cliche.
In the 10 years I spent in the computer software industry, I
would've thought this stuff was so much woo woo, maybe even three woos.
Now, over the last 20 plus years where I found something that I just love
and I'm passionate about, it turns out that it is work and there are times
where you don't like it and it can be frustrating, but overall, you can't wait
to get up and go to work the next day.
, According to SDT, when all three of these needs are supported, people tend to act
from a place of intrinsic motivation.
They're driven by what matters most to them.
It's this internal thing, rather than chasing approval and
avoiding disapproval or collecting external rewards and validation.
, In other words, self-determination theory, that, that's a good way to
explain why Alexis, in this earlier example, can choose integrity even
when it costs them, and why Jordan might struggle when their psychological
needs are ever so quietly compromised.
So autonomy, feeling like you have choice and control over your actions.
It's holding on to yourself even in the pressure when others want you
to, to fold into whatever they want you to do or who they need you to be.
Competence, you're feeling effective in your work.
You are doing things and you like to do them, and most likely, therefore,
you are becoming very competent in them, which gives you a real sense of
internal, validation and motivation.
And then this relatedness.
If I'm feeling connected with the things I like to do, and I'm feeling
competent about those things, then most likely I'm gonna find relatedness.
I'm gonna feel connected to those who I am interacting with because we're most likely
having some good shared experiences.
So when Jordan acts mostly for external rewards, partner praise, avoiding
conflict, they're giving up some autonomy.
They're letting others' expectations drive their choices.
They're continually finding themselves going like, oh, what
is this person gonna think?
Or, you know, let me ask this person, what would you do?
'cause that way if it doesn't go well, then I can say, well, they told me if
it does go well, then maybe they'll tell me that I'm good over time.
This is the kind of thing that leads to burnout, almost like a
moral injury because you're starting to compromise your own integrity
or, character or, Sense of self.
Alexis though is acting from intrinsic or internal motivation
choices that reflect personal values.
. Research shows that intrinsic motivation, fosters resilience, satisfaction in life,
job, career, a stronger sense of self.
So in other words, integrity and emotional maturity aren't just moral virtues.
They are these psychological nutrients and they help you thrive, not just survive.
Lemme give you a real world example.
And actually, , before I do that, I neglected to stay up front, follow
me on Instagram at virtual dot couch and TikTok at virtual couch.
And please go join my newsletter@tonyoverbay.com.
The newsletters have been heating up, and, that's your front row seat to
all the upcoming workshops on faith transitions and marriage Parenting.
My Men's Emotional Architects group, a place for guys ready
to grow into emotional maturity.
A lot of the things I've been talking about today and over the last few weeks.
And if you are ready to reclaim your life from Coreography.
I hope you know what I'm talking about.
Check out the path back@pathbackrecovery.com.
It's proven, it's affordable, and, I've had this course out for a
number of years and the best part of it is weekly live calls with yours
truly, and a group of amazing guys.
And I also love hearing from you, your challenges, your
victories, your questions.
So please keep them coming and you can reach out to me through my website,
tony everybody.com if you're interested in working with me one-on-one or
maybe as a couple from time to time.
I do have availability or opening.
Reach out to me through my website.
, Let's get back into today's episode.
Now we're bringing another person into the mix.
Let's talk about Sophia.
So Sophia started her career in a large corporate law firm, very much like Jordan.
She was smart and hardworking and eager to please.
In her first few years, she built a reputation by doing whatever was asked,
taking weekend calls, avoiding, questions about questionable clients and smoothing
things over, always with a smile.
So on paper her career looked pretty much perfect, but inside she started to feel
like she was living somebody else's life, the definite case of imposter syndrome.
So one day she found herself drafting some legal documents for a case that
she really didn't agree with, and it was starting to eat her up inside.
The documents were helping a client block funding to a community program that had
actually helped her family years ago.
So she felt sick that night.
She said that she just laid awake, and she was asking herself, okay,
if I'm this uncomfortable now, what will my life look like in 10 years?
If I continue to support this company that is doing this thing that will shut
down a program that saved my family.
We talked a lot.
We talked about what it would look like to deal with the discomfort, how much courage
it would take, and it started small.
So she started just to say no to certain assignments.
And even at first, she was not saying I refuse to do this.
She would say, I'm just overwhelmed, so can you take care of that?
And she sought out work that aligned more with her values, even if it meant fewer
billable hours, less kudos and praise.
Maybe even, , not starting to rise up the ranks to become a partner and.
She joined a pro bono immigration case then that she felt alive,
that reignited her passion for law.
So slowly, Sophia began to feel more autonomous.
She began to feel more competent in work that mattered to her.
It raised her emotional baseline, and she felt more connected to the
colleagues who shared her values that were working within that group.
And she looked back when she was working in the area of the firm that
she absolutely did not care about.
She said, I didn't really care much for the people either.
And then as we continued to work together, within a year, she left
for a smaller firm that had a real strong public interest practice.
And it was not as glamorous.
And she made a lot less money, but she felt alive.
She said she finally felt like she was coming home to herself and she had
traded the applause of others and the potential to have the big corporate
office and a lot of money, for the quiet confidence of her integrity.
And honestly, she never looked back.
, And Sophia's story, again, based on a true story of a client that I worked with.
Now, not everybody makes that shift, and I did have to go a little bit in the
way back machine to get this example.
Let's call this client Daniel.
Daniel also started out as ambitious and sharp and eager to move up
the ranks in a big law firm.
I'm not an attorney, and today it started, we will get to some research in a little
bit that had to do with law firms.
So if I'm taking you on my train of thought I was
starting to comb my mind for.
For examples that had to do with attorneys that, I've worked with as clients.
So Daniel, like Sophia, he had moments where his work was starting to become
at odds with his personal values.
He drew up contracts that protected corporations from accountability
that got them, into tax shelters and saved them billions of dollars.
He started to craft arguments that undermined causes that he
actually supported outside of work.
And what's fascinating is he was coming into therapy which was great and it
was early on in my therapy career.
There would be these times, not just with an attorney.
I remember someone that came into me and they opened up about these
addictive behaviors they had.
They also held a , very high position in their church.
And I thought, wow, this person is very brave and they are coming to
me and , they don't like how they feel doing this addictive thing.
And they were still entering , a temple, a very sacred place for their religion.
And they were not being honest.
And it was, again, this high position of authority.
And in that situation, I remember saying, okay, man, I'm
so impressed, so proud of you.
It's so brave of you , to get that off your chest.
So where, what do you wanna do with that?
And they said, oh, nothing.
I just, I feel better.
So I think I can continue with the behavior that I'm doing.
I've also had people that have been in similar positions that have been
called into a, a big position and then came and met with me and said.
I can't do this.
I have to be open about what I'm struggling with, even if it costs me
this position and, social status or social capital in my faith community.
I think it's so interesting, uh, fascinating.
I really enjoy that part of the job where you can get people that could
literally even be back to back one hour to the next, that have somewhat
similar cases or problems that they're coming in with, and then they
handle them completely in different ways because we're all different.
All that wonderful combination of all the things, the nature of the
nurturing birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hope, severe streams.
So we think and feel the way we do because we do, because there's so many variables.
I go back to . Daniel Unlike Sophia, Daniel didn't even
really pause to reflect.
He just told himself, I'll get through this one case and then, then I'll focus
on the work that really matters to him.
One case.
Probably know where this is going, became two.
But after this, it's gonna be different except for I'm gonna do one more.
Let me do three.
This third case, and it became a pattern and over time started to
get raises and promotions, but those came with the price tag.
He started to grow distant from the person he thought he was.
Now even more of a side note, it's really fascinating as a
couple's therapist because.
Most all of us . , We look at ourselves as a, a certain person, and then we present
that out to our world, to the partner and we say, you know me, this is who I am.
Right?
And if that person even hesitate, says, yeah, sure.
Then you get to say, well, what?
You don't think I'm, I'm a great person.
And now they're backpedaling saying, oh, I, I do, I do.
But you know that the energy's off and, , and now you, that person is hurt.
They feel like, I can't believe you, you don't, you don't know me.
But in reality, maybe they don't know themselves and they're presenting this
version of themselves and saying, I need you to validate this even if you
don't agree, even if that's not the version that you're seeing, 'cause it
will make me feel better back to Daniel.
By the time that we worked together, Daniel admitted that he was really
starting to feel hollow and starting to move into, some depressive
symptoms that he'd never felt before.
He was still successful on paper.
He was exhausted in life and he lost sight of his autonomy.
Decisions were driven by what will keep me in favor with
the partners of the law firm.
His competence was unquestioned, but it was in service of
outcomes he did not believe in.
Over time that is hard to keep up.
, , he felt isolated.
He was surrounded by people who saw him as reliable, but not as
somebody who stood for anything.
And quite frankly, he didn't really feel a connection to them either.
Daniel wasn't a bad person.
He was far from it.
He just been living in a way that made it hard to look in
the mirror without flinching.
I wasn't sure if I was going to share this, but, and I've changed a lot
of the details, but, for the record, because all I've been talking about
today are these clients these, examples of these powerful attorneys and
the struggles they have making, who knows they're four or $500 an hour.
But yes, for the record, these were both ambitious clients
and big professional jobs.
But don't get me wrong, I still work with the occasional Brad , but
Brad is in his mid thirties, lives at home, loves chugging two
liters of Mountain Dew Code Red.
And he experiences most of his life online.
He often refers to his online persona, or Sona as he calls it,
like it's a separate legal entity.
And instead of telling me about conflicts with Hillary or Edward or Griffin, over
the ethics of helping a $1 billion company swallow another billion dollar company.
Brad's Big moral dilemma is about whether shadow man underscore four 20 and Princess
Meow Mix 99 were right to say that the pizza sauce inside of a hot pocket
technically counts as a vegetable because this apparently turned into a heated
debate in his guild's discord server.
And things escalated quickly until their magical cleric that was part of the guild
rage quit right before they were supposed to raid in or city in legends of nar.
Now, without a cleric, I think we all know, or at least Brad told me they
didn't have enough healing spells to survive the third wave of lava ORs,
which then caused a catastrophic wipe.
And he said this with the same tone of voice Most of my attorney clients used
when they tell me that they just lost, tens of millions of dollars in a merger.
Here's the kicker, Brad insists, this wasn't just a game, it
was a lifestyle betrayal.
Honestly, and maybe I've changed a little bit of these details,
quite a few to protect the confidentiality, but it's not far off.
According to Brad , the sauce is a vegetable camp, has always been
in alignment with the clerics build choices, and this was
basically a bit of a constitutional crisis in the realm of flag.
So yes, integrity shows up in all sorts of ways, sometimes in courtrooms and
corporate boardrooms, and sometimes in pixelated or cities under siege.
My job is to help people figure out if they are living in alignment
with their values, whether those values involve justice or fairness,
or defending the sacred honor of processed microwaveable snacks.
Because whether you're debating corporate ethics or the vegetable status of hot
pocket sauce, which I don't think it's a vegetable, the real question is the same.
Are you acting from your values or are you just trying to win the argument?
That tension between what's easy or rewarding and what's aligning with
one's core values is exactly what psychological research digs into.
Let's explore a little bit of how human beings navigate that internal
terrain when their integrity is tested.
Because it, it will be, if you are interacting with life, you'll find
yourself having to really hold onto your integrity or really define your values.
So how do you find the strength to act from your values, whether
in courtrooms or living rooms?
What do these stories about These big law firms teach us First, it's that
external pressure will always test integrity, whether it's coming from a
president, a client, a partner, a paycheck pressure has a way of cornering people.
And cornering institutions into choices they might never have
imagined making in calmer times.
The therapist in me sees that so often where someone has said to me, I would
never do what I did until I found myself in a position that I did it.
You can think through things.
You can say, I would never let myself, cross certain lines.
But usually you're saying that when you are nowhere near those lines.
So when you then have that experience, that's when you
truly discover who you are.
And I mean that with the utmost in acceptance because as Carl Rogers, the
famous psychologist, says, once I accept myself as I am, that is when I can change.
But if I'm trying to pretend that I, I didn't know that I didn't do that,
that isn't me, then I'm gonna continue to do that same thing, trying to make
sure that no one thinks bad of me.
Second that some people in some firms are willing to absorb the
hit that comes with saying no.
They know that in the short term, they might lose business.
They might strain relationships.
People will think different things about them.
They might be labeled difficult, but they also know that they'll be able
to look themselves in the mirror.
And third, we could pick up from what we've talked about so far today,
that integrity isn't just a personal trait, it's an internal commitment
that shapes the culture around you.
When somebody like this, Rachel Cohen leaves a place like the law firm Skadden,
rather than compromise or principles, it doesn't just make headlines, it
sends a message to every young associate watching from the sidelines that this
is what it looks like to anchor yourself to your values, even when it costs you.
And what I see so often in a family dynamic is.
Someone that is, let's say, waking up to the narcissistic traits and
tendencies or emotional maturity in their relationship, in their partner, and
they have that courage to push to come to couples counseling and they learn to
get the tools or the skills to be able to stay grounded and speak their values,
their wants, their needs, not from a place of manipulation or coercion or
control, but from a place of integrity.
This is what I do.
This is what I would like in the relationship, and they will have to deal
with a tremendous amount of discomfort because the person that they are most
likely in a relationship with, the fact that the person that I am working with
has said I want to go to counseling and it has not been easy, is because
the person that they are interacting with, their partner has most likely put
pressure on them to say, well, I don't want to, I think everything's fine.
That's a you issue.
So it's easy to read these headlines about these law firms and think of them
as just stories about giant law firms, people in very nice tailored suits behind
these glass doors up on the 80th floor.
But really, these are human stories.
These strip away the marble lobbies, the thousand dollar billable hours, and what
you're left with is the same tension that we all face in our own lives.
The choice between what's comfortable and what's right.
And if we go all the way back to what we talked about at the beginning of the
podcast, the difference between character and integrity, this is it in real time.
Character can help you survive in a system.
Integrity.
That's what helps you live with yourself.
Once the lights are off and nobody's watching, the truth is the stakes
don't have to be billion dollar legal battles to make integrity matter.
The setting could be a hospital, a classroom, a construction site,
or a kitchen table, because in the end, the question is the same.
Am I making this decision for approval or.
For the alignment with my values.
And I have seen the same kind of choice play out far outside of courtrooms.
Take Angelie a senior product manager at a major Silicon Valley tech company.
Her team was working on a new feature that on paper it looked
like a home run., I was jealous.
This is one where you wish you could have some insider info and, and invest
in that sort of thing because what she was talking about was very sleek.
It was kind of addictive and it was guaranteed to make users
scroll longer, which meant more ad revenue and happier investors.
But she came in and, name has been changed as well as some of the other details.
But as she tested this product, she couldn't shake the feeling
that, this is not good.
We are building something that is very harmful.
Some of the features that she talked about were designed, to exploit
psychological hooks, especially in.
Younger users to keep 'em on an app far longer than was healthy.
Now, she could have done what I think most people in her position might do.
Keep your head down this, you're paid to do a job that's all.
Meet your deadlines and cash, your ginormous bonus, and
maybe even tip your therapist.
That's character being competent, agreeable, reliable, but it's
not necessarily integrity.
Now, instead she did the hard thing.
She called the meeting, she laid out her concerns to her team.
Even though she knew it might slow the project, it might make her unpopular with
the higher ups, it might get her fired.
And she even proposed some changes.
Things like, so should we build in our own, screen time of sorts,
time use reminders, maybe some built-in controls to limit compulsive
scrolling that would protect users.
, It would hurt our engagement metrics.
But you know, they, they're probably gonna be fine.
And, uh, everyone said yes and they lifted her up in the
air and threw her up and down.
She'll have happily ever after.
And they gave her all the money in the company.
No, the fallout was pretty real.
The launch was delayed, numbers dipped and she missed out on a promotion and a bonus.
And a lot of people thought that she was, too idealistic, but the word got
out and users noticed and feedback poured in praising the changes.
And over time, other teams started using her approach and it became
a model for a more ethical design.
So like Alexis in the law firm, angel didn't just make a decision.
She made a statement.
She proved that holding onto herself, her integrity is not
about avoiding discomfort.
Oh no, it was very discomforting or uncomfortable.
It's about walking straight into that discomfort because that's
where your values lead you.
You say things that you say or do the things that you do because that's what you
do, because that's what's right for you.
Another example, we will call him Marcus.
Same industry, different company, senior product manager,
very sharp, very fast moving.
Lots of A-D-H-D-A natural building relationships with
other corporate executives.
His team rolled out a different product, but it was a similar concept,
similar engagement boosting feature.
And it had all these hooks.
And as a matter of fact, it actually got me to look at my phone and apps
and things differently to look at all the different ways that I didn't
even realize I was being manipulated.
People were glued to their screens.
So Marcus noticed the same potential downsize Angel did.
He even mentioned them in passing to a colleague.
Kind of joking.
Well, not really great for humanity, but, how about those
click through rates though?
Huh?
Probably gonna be a good bonus.
But he stopped there.
He even told me at one point that he said, I now realize I was saying jokes and
humor, hoping that the other person would say, oh, I think we should go in there
and say, we will no longer work on this.
But he said, I wasn't gonna say it, but he didn't take his concerns any further.
And the project hit its deadlines and the metrics sort.
And Marcus was promoted and he got lots of money, and he did not tip his therapist
because you actually don't tip therapists.
I'll be honest.
Now, from the outside, Marcus looked like a success story, and it was the
wildest thing to process that, where he is like, whoopee, I'm loaded.
And the project did great, and things like that.
But he did not feel great.
He looked like a competent, reliable leader who got results.
But inside he admitted to me that he did not feel as proud as he thought he would.
He had avoided conflict.
He kept his approval rating high, and he stayed comfortable.
But he'd also stayed silent and he let external validation steer his ship.
That's the difference that we've been talking about.
Marcus chose character without integrity, and while it worked in
the short run, told me there's still a part of him wondering what might
have happened if he had spoken up.
Let's tie this back to the concepts around emotional maturity
and then external validation.
I think there's a thread running through every example so far in the episode,
whether you, again, are a law firm, tech company battling works anywhere else.
The real pivot point is the same.
Emotional maturity means moving from letting external validation
dictate your choices to letting your internal values guide them.
Angelique anchored herself to her values even when it cost her or Marcus
stayed tethered to approval even when it chipped away at his sense of self.
And that's the crossroads we all face over and over and over again.
Now, let's take this outta the courtroom and the boardroom for a moment, and
let's go into the world of faith, specifically in high demand religion.
Imagine you've been deeply involved for years.
You've held leadership positions, you've taught classes, you've been there for
weddings and funerals and youth events.
This is where you got your social capital.
This is where you enjoyed rites of passage, your community, and you've had
moments where the community has been an incredible source of comfort and
moments where it's been challenging.
But overall, you think, these are my people and this is where I belong.
This is where I would find value and purpose.
And one day your teenage child comes to you and says, mom, dad, I'm gay.
This is where character and integrity can point in different directions.
Character in this context might mean continuing to fit the mold of
what your faith community expects.
You might even tell your child, Hey, I love you, but.
You know what you're doing isn't right.
, You can avoid speaking up publicly because you don't wanna jeopardize your standing.
So then you follow all the rules, even if you don't fully agree with them.
'cause it's too uncomfortable to speak up even at the risk of
potentially losing your kid, because that's what a good member does.
You keep your seat at the table, but you tuck away part of your
child's identity to do it.
Integrity on the other hand, means aligning your words and actions with your
deepest values, even if that costs you.
And it might mean telling your faith leaders, Hey, I support my child fully.
I didn't know what I didn't know.
And now I'm interacting with a situation and I realize that this is how I feel.
I support my child fully and I believe.
Our community should too.
And it might mean challenging policies that you once defended blindly.
You risk disapproval, you most likely will not be considered for leadership roles.
Maybe even friendships disappear, unfortunately.
And that is one of the most difficult things.
Or people that say, Hey, we're we're close.
You're like a brother or sister.
We're best friends.
Unless you decide to become your best version of yourself, then
I don't wanna do that anymore.
But you also wanna keep your child's trust and your self-respect and your
alignment with the values and love and compassion and justice that drew
you to your faith in the first place.
Now, let's go one step further.
Imagine years later you discover your spouse has been
unfaithful and it's devastating.
But the two of you go to therapy and you do the work.
You are consistent and it's uncomfortable and it's icky, and you know people are
talking, but you get the tools that you never had before and maybe it's against
the odds, but your marriage, it does become stronger than it has ever been.
Now, you would think your community would celebrate that healing, right?
But instead, you are treated like a second class citizen.
You hear the whispers, you're passed over for positions of authority.
. It's almost like you're not picked for the, the proverbial
spiritual kickball team.
Whether you are the betrayer or the betrayed, you're now quietly excluded
from certain leadership roles.
People treat you with pity or suspicion or judgment because in their eyes, you are
now damaged goods one of the parts of that that stings the most is the treatment that
flies in the face of the very Christian values, redemption, grace, restoration,
all or welcome at the table that you thought were at the heart of your faith.
And that's really today's theme.
That's what it looks like in real life when character is about playing
the part the community expects.
You might stay in good standing, but at the cost of authenticity, when integrity
is about living your values consistently, even when it means losing status, you
might find yourself on the outside.
So in both this lGBTQ plus example and the marriage example, the
tension is the same one that we've been talking about all episode.
Do I choose comfort and get approval and belonging on someone else's terms or do
I have the courage to choose alignment and authenticity and belong to myself?
One protects your position, the other protects your soul.
And in both of these faith community scenarios, the parent of a gay child
and the couple who rebuilt their marriage, the hardest truth is this.
Sometimes integrity will put you at odds with the very community that you
have loved and served and you still want to be a part of that community,
but I promise you it will never put you at odds with your own soul.
I've worked with so many people over the years that have navigated a faith journey,
a faith crisis, a faith deconstruction, and have come out the other side feeling
even closer to the divine because they now realize that they are a child of God
with their God-given talents and abilities
the way they let their light so shine is to be themselves.
And, let me end calling upon my Christian roots here.
For those who speak fluent Christianity, I've been thinking a lot lately about
the verse that talks about God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
And then the idea that God is love, his love is unconditional.
If his love is unconditional, which I believe it is, then his
unconditional love is also the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Now, from a differentiation standpoint, that means God knows exactly who
he is, regardless of whether we as imperfect humans, make mistakes or not.
And actually I think that's the whole point.
We are supposed to be imperfect because that's how we learn.
That's the human condition.
So whenever I find myself thinking, God must be mad at me, it's no longer there.
'cause I now see that's a me issue, not a him issue, because he's the
same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and his love is not changed.
It's unconditional.
I used to wrestle with , the weighty term repentance, because when people
say it, it's kind of said with those serious eyes, the head turns a little bit
and like a deep nod, thinking that it's more of this reminder of shortcomings.
But if you dig into its meaning, I think it's pronounced, metanoia,
it means a change of mind or direction, turning back toward love.
And that's when I realized, okay, repentance isn't about
shame, it's about realignment.
It's about returning to a safe.
Secure attachment, A safe home base after wandering.
It's like coming home and , your parents have a nice home cooked meal
and they want to give you a hug and say, tell me what's going on, champ.
How was the day?
That's exactly how I wanna live, not as somebody who's bad, but
as somebody who's becoming.
And then I will gladly turn back again and again and again.
I will repent on a minute by minute basis because I'm turning back to
the secure attachment of a heavenly being who is saying, you're good.
I love you.
And I'm saying, yeah, remember the thing I did over there kind of messed up.
They're like, you're good.
Love you.
'Cause that is how we grow and we find ourselves by doing.
By exploring, by being, that's how we unpack these gifts that we hold within
us and our inherent nature is good.
So if repentance means turning back to a loving God, whose love
never waivers, count me in again.
I will do it all the time because that's not about shame.
It's about a relationship.
It's a secure attachment.
John Bulbie, the father of attachment theory, taught that a secure base is what
allows us to go out into the world and explore and make mistakes and learn, and
then return for safety and reassurance.
That's how we thrive.
So now when I turn back to God, it's not from a place of I'm bad.
It's from a place of I'm learning.
I'm doing life for the very first time as me.
I'm figuring out as I go and I know there's a safe place to return to.
So I am feeling comfortable and safe to express opinions and to
try things and figure out who I am.
And that's the heartbeat of what we're talking about today.
Whether you are in a high powered law firm or a tech company, or a faith community,
or just in your living room the question's the same, am I making my choices for
approval or for alignment with my values?
Do I even know what my values are?
Character will help you fit in.
Integrity will help you stand tall.
Character might keep you comfortable, but integrity will keep you whole.
And if we can anchor ourselves to a secure sense of self, whether
that's rooted in faith or values, or a deep knowing of who we are.
I promise you, we can navigate the pressure, the criticism, the
temptation to conform without losing ourselves in the process.
And that's part of being able to think critically and to self
confront and to figure out.
Turns out , I'm a pretty good person.
'cause at the end of the day, integrity is about coming home to your values, to
your truth, or to a God whose love is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
And that my friends is a home worth coming back to.
So before I turn to the Wonderful, actually will not go to the
music of my wonderful friend, Aurora Florence and her song.
It's wonderful because, , I wanna invite you to take just a
few minutes with me and, lemme guide you on a little meditation.
And so as it ends, and if you are still feeling the vibe and
you're not driving, then just be.
So, let's slow down and let's let everything we've
talked about really sink in.
Let's do the short guided meditation and help you connect with your values.
And find that secure base.
'cause you can always return to it, whether you're facing a
high pressure decision or just moving through everyday life.
So if you are able, if you're not driving, probably not gonna be good on a treadmill.
Find a comfortable spot and just gimme a few minutes.
Title this one, coming Home to Your Values.
So let's take a moment now to let everything that we've talked
about settle in, wherever you are.
Allow your body to find a comfortable position.
You can be sitting up, you can be laying down, and if you feel comfortable, you
might close your eyes or soften your gaze.
And now take a slow, deep breath in through the nose
and out through the mouth.
Again, in
and then out,
and then you can return to your regular breathing.
And if you're laying down, if you're sitting in a chair, I would love for you
to feel the weight of your body supported by the chair or the couch or the floor
beneath you, and notice your feet.
Bring your awareness to them if they're connected to the ground.
And feel the steadiness that's been there all along.
And let your breath be easy.
No need to control it.
Just notice it.
Just breathe.
Now, bring to mind something of value that feels really important to you.
It might be love, it might be honesty, curiosity, authenticity.
Justice, compassion.
There's actually no right or wrong.
Just take a notice of what rises to the surface.
Check that out.
And imagine this value is a light within you and it's steady, and
it doesn't flicker with other people's approval or disapproval.
It just shines quietly, constantly.
And now think of a moment in the past or the present, or you can even imagine one
in the future where you've had to, or you will choose between what was comfortable
and what was true to your value.
If you chose comfort, it's no judgment.
Just notice what that feels like in your body.
Where do you feel that?
If you chose integrity, I want you to notice that feeling too.
Either way, see if you can soften around the story.
Because you're not here to grade yourself.
There is no right or wrong.
You're here to understand.
Now, imagine what it would feel like to live from that
value more and more each day
to return to it.
When you wander to treat that value like a safe home, you can come back
to no matter where you've been or what happened, or how long you've been away
from it, maybe that returning feeling feels like your faith in the divine.
Maybe it feels like the unconditional love of a parent or
a partner, or a good friend, a pet.
Maybe it's simply the deep knowing that you are actually okay.
You're worthy, you're lovable, even when you stumble, and this is your secure base.
It's always here.
It's always steady.
Since we close up, I want you to take one more deep breath in through the nose,
let it go out through the mouth,
and just carry this value with you gently into the rest of your day.
Kinda like a compass just quietly guiding you.
'cause remember, you can always return to it again and again, and you can return
to this meditation again and again and see if something new comes up for you.
When you're ready, open your eyes, rejoin the space around you.
I am so grateful that you took the time to be here with me today for this podcast.
Reach out if you have questions or thoughts and we'll see you
next time on the virtual couch.