WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

00:00:20.070 --> 00:00:23.910
Hey everybody, welcome to an episode
of The Virtual Couch as well as most

00:00:23.910 --> 00:00:25.620
likely The Mind, the Mirror, and me.

00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:27.060
I'm your host, Tony Overbay.

00:00:27.060 --> 00:00:28.710
I'm a licensed marriage
and family therapist.

00:00:29.430 --> 00:00:30.900
So let's begin today with a question.

00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:35.340
Have you ever found yourself stuck
between wanting to change, maybe

00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:39.550
even wanting to want to change, and
then, , hating every second of it when

00:00:39.610 --> 00:00:41.170
the opportunity actually shows up?

00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:45.400
Because I think often people really do
want something different and when they

00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:48.379
have just done something that they're
not maybe feeling the greatest about,

00:00:48.379 --> 00:00:49.694
they tell themselves it's the last time.

00:00:49.994 --> 00:00:53.179
And I really think in that moment, most
of us think that it is the last time that

00:00:53.179 --> 00:00:55.699
we're doing whatever that behavior is and.

00:00:56.044 --> 00:00:59.404
Often just being able to tell
ourselves that's the last time

00:00:59.404 --> 00:01:01.774
makes us feel good enough that
we think, okay, no, this is real.

00:01:01.774 --> 00:01:03.244
I'm never gonna do whatever it is again.

00:01:03.244 --> 00:01:04.354
I'm gonna make this change.

00:01:05.044 --> 00:01:07.954
And then you wake up the next day and
that's actually the moment of truth.

00:01:08.554 --> 00:01:11.374
What do you do differently
if you've acknowledged that

00:01:11.374 --> 00:01:12.514
something does need to change?

00:01:12.934 --> 00:01:14.434
There are so many things
that get in the way of it.

00:01:14.944 --> 00:01:16.834
Even if it is the, I'm not even sure how.

00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:20.949
Okay, well then the next part
of that is just start doing,

00:01:21.099 --> 00:01:22.329
trying figure something out.

00:01:22.569 --> 00:01:26.439
'cause even the, I don't even know
what to do next, is a story that my

00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.709
brain, if it can hook me to that, then
I really don't have to do anything new.

00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:32.409
'cause new things are scary and
we're gonna talk about today.

00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:36.159
Or there's even another side of that
where maybe you've told yourself

00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:39.429
that, no, I'm absolutely fine with
change and, and when it is time to

00:01:39.429 --> 00:01:40.869
make that change, then I'll do it.

00:01:41.709 --> 00:01:43.779
But how will you know
when that time is right?

00:01:43.839 --> 00:01:44.499
Oh, I'll know.

00:01:44.739 --> 00:01:45.459
You'll tell yourself.

00:01:45.999 --> 00:01:49.419
And then all of a sudden you're hit
with something pretty big in your life

00:01:49.419 --> 00:01:53.229
and now you really have to change and,
and maybe you're wishing that you had

00:01:53.229 --> 00:01:57.579
started laying the groundwork down
for change a little earlier, and then

00:01:57.579 --> 00:01:59.169
at that point it can feel terrifying.

00:01:59.889 --> 00:02:02.469
So today's episode is
all about that tension.

00:02:02.829 --> 00:02:07.419
That tension where growth can really
occur, why it feels so uncomfortable,

00:02:07.419 --> 00:02:09.519
which is pretty normal, but then why?

00:02:09.519 --> 00:02:12.039
It is the very thing that helps us grow.

00:02:12.579 --> 00:02:14.529
And how do we get through those
moments where we just don't

00:02:14.529 --> 00:02:15.669
really want to deal with it?

00:02:16.059 --> 00:02:18.669
Because that's a normal part of
the human experience and I could

00:02:18.669 --> 00:02:21.249
not think of a better person to
have this conversation with than my

00:02:21.249 --> 00:02:24.009
daughter, Mackey McKinley over Bay.

00:02:24.249 --> 00:02:27.549
You might know her as at Beauty
by Mackey on Instagram and TikTok.

00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.149
She and I co-host The Mind The Mirror
and Me a podcast that has been on a

00:02:31.149 --> 00:02:38.039
brief hiatus brief , in the grand scheme
of time, as in history of the universe.

00:02:38.249 --> 00:02:39.389
Such a brief hiatus.

00:02:39.779 --> 00:02:41.999
But in the podcasting world,
it's been a little while, but

00:02:42.359 --> 00:02:43.739
we are hoping that it is back.

00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:47.129
Now, since we last recorded, Mackey
has had some pretty major career

00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:49.229
shifts, , completely different industry.

00:02:49.529 --> 00:02:51.329
I've had spinal surgery.

00:02:51.579 --> 00:02:54.059
, My mom, Mackey's grandma passed away.

00:02:54.674 --> 00:02:57.104
That's a lot of change right
there, but that's also a lot

00:02:57.104 --> 00:02:58.334
of opportunity for growth.

00:02:58.604 --> 00:03:02.984
So we're gonna talk about that and we're
going to use humor because Mackey is,

00:03:03.044 --> 00:03:08.234
is probably the person who is the most
like me and my family, who kind of uses

00:03:08.234 --> 00:03:11.864
humor for most everything because that
is the way that we process things best.

00:03:11.894 --> 00:03:16.994
So in today's episode, we're gonna
dig into what makes change scary, why

00:03:16.994 --> 00:03:20.694
our brains crave certainty, , hate,
discomfort, fight against the

00:03:20.694 --> 00:03:24.744
unknown, and how more often than not,
discomfort is the price of growth.

00:03:25.024 --> 00:03:28.024
, We'll also talk a little bit about
how even practical gifts like luggage

00:03:28.024 --> 00:03:31.534
and nose, hair, trimmers, end up
teaching us a very valuable lesson.

00:03:32.494 --> 00:03:34.414
So before we get started, a
quick reminder, if you haven't

00:03:34.414 --> 00:03:36.904
already, head over to tony over
bay.com, sign up for my newsletter.

00:03:36.904 --> 00:03:39.844
It's the best way to stay up to date on
new episodes and resources and events.

00:03:39.934 --> 00:03:43.984
And then while you're at it, come find me
on social media, TikTok at Virtual couch,

00:03:44.164 --> 00:03:48.844
Instagram at virtual couch, and reach out
through my website if you have questions

00:03:48.894 --> 00:03:51.354
or there's something that you would like
for me to tackle on a future episode

00:03:51.474 --> 00:03:55.044
and make sure you also follow Mackey
on Instagram and TikTok at Beauty by

00:03:55.074 --> 00:03:58.674
Mackey, and of course subscribe to her
podcast, the Mine, the Mirror, and Me.

00:03:59.004 --> 00:04:03.144
And last but not least, it is
not too late to sign up to Cruise

00:04:03.144 --> 00:04:06.444
the Seas with my friend Julie De
Jesus, and me in January of 2026.

00:04:06.444 --> 00:04:07.554
The link will be in the show notes.

00:04:07.734 --> 00:04:08.754
We would love to have you join us.

00:04:08.874 --> 00:04:10.404
Okay, let's get to it.

00:04:10.404 --> 00:04:13.434
Here is my conversation
with Mackey on change.

00:04:17.292 --> 00:04:17.622
Yeah.

00:04:17.962 --> 00:04:19.217
, Anyway, we should not talk about this.

00:04:19.357 --> 00:04:20.177
No, it's not

00:04:20.177 --> 00:04:20.497
important.

00:04:20.942 --> 00:04:21.782
, I feel too casual.

00:04:22.003 --> 00:04:23.068
Can one be too casual?

00:04:23.068 --> 00:04:23.248
Mac?

00:04:23.985 --> 00:04:25.125
I'm wearing my pajama shirt.

00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:26.030
Okay.

00:04:26.505 --> 00:04:27.645
So the answer to that is no.

00:04:27.825 --> 00:04:29.145
Didn't brush my hair today.

00:04:29.265 --> 00:04:30.345
. Do I have to do it?

00:04:31.005 --> 00:04:31.605
Me neither.

00:04:32.992 --> 00:04:33.412
So anyways,

00:04:34.042 --> 00:04:39.772
hey, welcome back to, this is
gonna run on every podcast I have

00:04:40.252 --> 00:04:42.472
and the one podcast I have,

00:04:42.502 --> 00:04:43.642
which is called

00:04:43.882 --> 00:04:45.322
The Mind the Mirror in Me.

00:04:45.322 --> 00:04:47.122
And it has not had an episode in.

00:04:47.992 --> 00:04:48.982
Five years.

00:04:49.162 --> 00:04:49.912
It's been a minute.

00:04:49.912 --> 00:04:50.962
As the kids, it's been a minute.

00:04:51.117 --> 00:04:52.047
They say, I haven't heard that.

00:04:52.487 --> 00:04:54.562
I say it still, but I don't think
I count as the kids anymore.

00:04:54.562 --> 00:04:55.192
Which is scary.

00:04:55.192 --> 00:04:55.342
No, you're

00:04:55.342 --> 00:04:57.352
moving into that where
you'll sound silly saying it.

00:04:57.412 --> 00:04:57.622
Yeah.

00:04:57.622 --> 00:04:57.772
There.

00:04:57.772 --> 00:05:01.412
I notice that a lot do, especially 'cause
I work at a school with 18 year olds.

00:05:01.802 --> 00:05:01.872
You do?

00:05:01.872 --> 00:05:01.882
Okay.

00:05:01.882 --> 00:05:03.002
And so they're still like that.

00:05:03.002 --> 00:05:05.282
And I feel like I'm a hundred years old.

00:05:05.442 --> 00:05:08.442
. , There's some guy I follow on TikTok
and he's a teacher and every week

00:05:08.442 --> 00:05:11.562
he comes out with the top five words
that middle school people are saying.

00:05:11.922 --> 00:05:12.672
And it's hilarious.

00:05:12.672 --> 00:05:14.682
Like aura farming and everything.

00:05:14.862 --> 00:05:16.212
There's some with numbers right now.

00:05:16.212 --> 00:05:16.752
Do you know that one?

00:05:17.562 --> 00:05:19.872
I know that there are things with
numbers and I never know what they are.

00:05:19.877 --> 00:05:19.907
Okay.

00:05:19.992 --> 00:05:21.192
And I've even tried to look into it.

00:05:21.192 --> 00:05:21.402
Have you?

00:05:21.402 --> 00:05:22.242
And I cannot figure it out.

00:05:22.242 --> 00:05:22.392
Okay.

00:05:22.572 --> 00:05:25.032
And I go immediately to why is four?

00:05:25.032 --> 00:05:27.372
Afraid of six or 7, 8, 9 or something.

00:05:27.432 --> 00:05:27.762
That one.

00:05:27.822 --> 00:05:28.212
You know that one.

00:05:28.212 --> 00:05:28.422
Four.

00:05:28.422 --> 00:05:29.172
Afraid of six.

00:05:29.412 --> 00:05:30.142
No, he's not afraid of six.

00:05:30.142 --> 00:05:30.427
That's why.

00:05:30.432 --> 00:05:30.612
Seven.

00:05:30.612 --> 00:05:32.172
Afraid of nine because seven, eight.

00:05:32.287 --> 00:05:32.507
No.

00:05:32.512 --> 00:05:32.622
No.

00:05:32.622 --> 00:05:33.432
Why nine?

00:05:33.432 --> 00:05:34.362
Afraid of see world.

00:05:35.712 --> 00:05:36.582
Who's afraid of who?

00:05:37.242 --> 00:05:37.902
The big, bad wolf.

00:05:38.677 --> 00:05:38.967
Okay.

00:05:40.542 --> 00:05:40.662
Hi.

00:05:40.662 --> 00:05:40.722
M

00:05:41.262 --> 00:05:42.492
nine is afraid of seven.

00:05:42.760 --> 00:05:43.360
Why six?

00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:44.290
Afraid of seven.

00:05:44.410 --> 00:05:44.620
Oh yeah.

00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:45.370
6, 7, 8, 9.

00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:48.430
That, that is a sign of being old.

00:05:48.460 --> 00:05:49.960
Add in the little drum thing.

00:05:50.183 --> 00:05:52.293
don't have the budget for
it, . It's good to have you back.

00:05:52.293 --> 00:05:53.523
It's been a a while.

00:05:53.553 --> 00:05:55.533
You've had some significant life changes.

00:05:56.223 --> 00:05:58.203
I have, but before we get
to that, I have you though.

00:05:58.353 --> 00:05:58.683
Yeah.

00:05:58.683 --> 00:05:59.973
And that's what we're
gonna talk about today.

00:06:00.063 --> 00:06:00.123
Yeah.

00:06:00.123 --> 00:06:04.773
Change and how fun it is and how easy
it is and how everybody likes it.

00:06:04.773 --> 00:06:04.828
Everybody wants

00:06:04.828 --> 00:06:05.973
to do it and it's so great.

00:06:06.153 --> 00:06:06.633
Exactly.

00:06:06.633 --> 00:06:08.313
Before we begin, I have
some questions for you, Mac.

00:06:09.543 --> 00:06:12.753
Have you ever been given a gift that you
really weren't that excited about, but

00:06:12.753 --> 00:06:15.693
you later realized it was something that
you were glad that you had received?

00:06:16.493 --> 00:06:17.243
Here's the thing.

00:06:17.423 --> 00:06:18.263
Full transparency.

00:06:18.263 --> 00:06:18.353
Yes.

00:06:18.353 --> 00:06:19.643
You asked me this before I did.

00:06:19.643 --> 00:06:21.413
And my initial response was,

00:06:21.563 --> 00:06:21.923
I've, no,

00:06:22.583 --> 00:06:23.573
I've never received a gift.

00:06:23.573 --> 00:06:26.213
I said, I cannot remember a
single gift that I have received.

00:06:26.305 --> 00:06:26.425
then

00:06:26.425 --> 00:06:29.365
we got into a slight memory thing
and how crazy memory is and whatever.

00:06:29.710 --> 00:06:31.810
But I was drawing a blank, but
I did come up with something.

00:06:31.910 --> 00:06:33.740
, I have to say the joke
of when you said that.

00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:33.890
Mm-hmm.

00:06:34.130 --> 00:06:37.790
We were at home and then as your
dad who has been through a lot of

00:06:37.790 --> 00:06:39.980
Christmases with you, tiny bit offended.

00:06:40.880 --> 00:06:41.540
Rightfully so.

00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:41.990
Thank you.

00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:43.550
And then I did remember a few things.

00:06:43.580 --> 00:06:43.910
Okay.

00:06:43.915 --> 00:06:44.095
That's here.

00:06:44.390 --> 00:06:53.750
But my answer is on my 18th birthday,
my dearest mother started a tradition

00:06:53.750 --> 00:06:57.810
with us children where she would
get us a nice set of suitcases.

00:06:58.080 --> 00:06:58.710
I didn't know this.

00:06:59.070 --> 00:06:59.880
Where were you?

00:07:00.150 --> 00:07:01.860
She would get us like a
nice set of suitcases.

00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:03.690
'cause we were moving outta
the house and doing whatever.

00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:07.700
. I vividly remember opening up
my suitcases and being like.

00:07:08.570 --> 00:07:09.170
What do you mean?

00:07:09.230 --> 00:07:12.530
Yeah, I was a little bit, not
disappointed, but a little,

00:07:12.530 --> 00:07:14.210
just like I didn't ask for this.

00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.020
I didn't, yeah.

00:07:15.050 --> 00:07:16.250
What do I don't need this?

00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:19.820
And then jokes on me because it
has now been however many years

00:07:19.820 --> 00:07:22.250
later since I was 18 a lot.

00:07:22.580 --> 00:07:25.670
And I still use those suitcases
frequently and I've used them

00:07:25.670 --> 00:07:26.780
everywhere that I've moved.

00:07:27.080 --> 00:07:28.190
Everywhere that we've gone.

00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.210
And they still exist right now and they're
in great condition and they've been

00:07:32.330 --> 00:07:35.320
actually a very good and practical gift.

00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:37.600
. Oh, I wonder if practical
is the key to this one.

00:07:37.827 --> 00:07:40.677
' cause I, I was trying to think of
something that is fun that you got , if

00:07:40.677 --> 00:07:42.787
it was fun, maybe you wouldn't think
it was a bad thing, but that's a

00:07:42.787 --> 00:07:43.167
Exactly.

00:07:43.167 --> 00:07:45.147
I think if it's fun you find
a way to just make it fun.

00:07:45.207 --> 00:07:45.477
Yeah.

00:07:45.507 --> 00:07:46.197
But that was it.

00:07:46.197 --> 00:07:49.047
They were very practical and
I've used them very practically.

00:07:49.167 --> 00:07:49.407
Yeah.

00:07:49.527 --> 00:07:50.487
Very ever since.

00:07:51.267 --> 00:07:54.027
, And your mom said one that was
really, it was really nice.

00:07:54.027 --> 00:07:54.177
It was

00:07:54.177 --> 00:07:54.597
tender.

00:07:54.657 --> 00:07:57.917
It was your grandma, my mom, grandma
Peggy , who recently passed away,

00:07:57.917 --> 00:08:01.743
will, Gave your mom a sewing kit at
our wedding . And your mom said, , she

00:08:01.743 --> 00:08:06.613
thought it , was a little bit useless
at the time and she still has the exact

00:08:06.613 --> 00:08:10.993
same kit from 34 years ago and she said
she has used it a thousand plus times.

00:08:11.413 --> 00:08:12.448
That's a lot of times.

00:08:12.453 --> 00:08:13.123
That's a lot of times.

00:08:13.123 --> 00:08:13.753
I don't doubt it though.

00:08:13.753 --> 00:08:16.243
I know exactly the one she's
talking about and where it is.

00:08:16.543 --> 00:08:17.893
And it was full of all kinds of,

00:08:17.893 --> 00:08:19.513
and I do too because I think
now I've since used it.

00:08:19.743 --> 00:08:21.153
. To sew up our dog's toys.

00:08:21.393 --> 00:08:22.893
That's what I think when
they rip them to shreds,

00:08:22.953 --> 00:08:23.403
which they do.

00:08:23.403 --> 00:08:25.323
There's a whole graveyard of dog toys.

00:08:25.353 --> 00:08:26.433
Yeah, I'm behind.

00:08:26.523 --> 00:08:30.003
. ,  I was jotting down some notes and I
don't know if anybody ever got me a nose

00:08:30.003 --> 00:08:31.563
in ear hair trior for the first time.

00:08:32.133 --> 00:08:33.153
Maybe your mom did.

00:08:33.423 --> 00:08:35.253
Which maybe was a little
passive aggressive.

00:08:35.253 --> 00:08:37.983
Now if I think about
it at the time, Uhhuh.

00:08:38.083 --> 00:08:40.603
, That has been a gift that has
given and given and given, and

00:08:40.633 --> 00:08:42.193
I've gone through many of them now.

00:08:42.553 --> 00:08:43.903
It's like your favorite thing now

00:08:43.933 --> 00:08:45.633
kind of is , I like that grooming.

00:08:45.708 --> 00:08:45.738
Okay.

00:08:46.278 --> 00:08:48.618
And now you make me trim
your old man eyebrows,

00:08:48.648 --> 00:08:50.118
not trim, pluck, pluck?

00:08:50.208 --> 00:08:50.598
Or do you

00:08:50.868 --> 00:08:51.678
I do a little bit of both.

00:08:51.738 --> 00:08:51.978
Okay.

00:08:51.978 --> 00:08:53.658
But do you guys call it
that in the industry?

00:08:53.658 --> 00:08:54.168
In the business?

00:08:54.168 --> 00:08:56.658
Is that a trimming or do you pluck
'em or what do you do with eyebrows?

00:08:57.108 --> 00:08:58.698
We just call it brow shaping.

00:08:58.818 --> 00:09:00.228
Oh, is the service you would book.

00:09:00.468 --> 00:09:00.708
Okay.

00:09:01.508 --> 00:09:03.768
And you've been doing it for me every
couple of weeks before I go back to

00:09:03.768 --> 00:09:08.538
California and I am blown away at
how fast they grow as an old man.

00:09:09.378 --> 00:09:09.438
Yeah.

00:09:09.438 --> 00:09:10.338
They come right back

00:09:10.338 --> 00:09:11.118
and they're huge.

00:09:11.178 --> 00:09:11.268
Yeah.

00:09:11.268 --> 00:09:12.138
And they're wiry

00:09:12.138 --> 00:09:13.878
and they're a little
curly and a little wiry.

00:09:13.878 --> 00:09:14.118
Yeah.

00:09:14.178 --> 00:09:14.358
Yeah.

00:09:14.358 --> 00:09:15.198
So I appreciate that.

00:09:15.768 --> 00:09:16.248
Anytime.

00:09:16.638 --> 00:09:17.598
We're talking about change.

00:09:18.198 --> 00:09:18.288
Mm-hmm.

00:09:18.508 --> 00:09:20.458
You have had some very
big changes lately, as

00:09:21.433 --> 00:09:21.883
have you

00:09:22.318 --> 00:09:22.498
Yeah.

00:09:22.498 --> 00:09:23.128
But let's start with yours.

00:09:23.128 --> 00:09:24.688
Yours are like career changing things.

00:09:24.738 --> 00:09:27.918
' When we last left, things had you
started back to esthetician school?

00:09:28.338 --> 00:09:31.398
I don't remember, but I know that
we talked about my Hashimoto's,

00:09:31.498 --> 00:09:32.698
we talked about that shift.

00:09:32.698 --> 00:09:33.898
So maybe I was already

00:09:34.108 --> 00:09:34.768
in school.

00:09:34.948 --> 00:09:35.518
Probably

00:09:35.578 --> 00:09:36.508
because it took how long?

00:09:37.498 --> 00:09:38.218
Aesthetician school.

00:09:38.248 --> 00:09:38.818
Six months.

00:09:38.818 --> 00:09:39.328
Six months,

00:09:39.328 --> 00:09:41.188
.  Probably was at least starting it.

00:09:41.298 --> 00:09:42.618
. . Why did you go, why did you change it?

00:09:42.618 --> 00:09:45.138
First of all, did you like
being a cosmetologist?

00:09:45.933 --> 00:09:46.333
I did.

00:09:46.398 --> 00:09:47.208
I thought I did.

00:09:47.358 --> 00:09:47.568
Yeah.

00:09:47.568 --> 00:09:49.458
At the time, I guess I would say.

00:09:49.698 --> 00:09:51.618
And did you Maybe until you started to not

00:09:51.978 --> 00:09:53.418
I think to some extent, yeah.

00:09:53.423 --> 00:09:55.613
. There was definitely a period
of time where I loved it.

00:09:55.793 --> 00:10:00.373
.  And then got diagnosed with a
spooky thing and then my whole

00:10:00.373 --> 00:10:01.663
life got flipped upside down.

00:10:01.663 --> 00:10:03.193
So that was change in itself.

00:10:03.293 --> 00:10:05.033
.  Is a way to tie that into Yes.

00:10:05.033 --> 00:10:08.863
But then that led me to shift

00:10:08.963 --> 00:10:09.563
.  Careers.

00:10:09.740 --> 00:10:10.143
Completely.

00:10:10.293 --> 00:10:11.493
And people that are gonna be listening.

00:10:11.523 --> 00:10:12.333
It's so funny.

00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.050
it's not like everybody sits there
and remembers every single thing

00:10:15.050 --> 00:10:16.610
that has happened on a podcast.

00:10:16.610 --> 00:10:17.270
For sure.

00:10:17.330 --> 00:10:17.480
Yeah.

00:10:17.485 --> 00:10:17.495
Yeah.

00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:20.350
Can you do a quick summary , of
when you learned about Hashimoto's,

00:10:20.350 --> 00:10:23.010
, what you did, how you lost ton
of weight, . Give a little update

00:10:23.060 --> 00:10:31.795
.  So I. Was experiencing a lot
of crappy symptoms in like 2023

00:10:31.795 --> 00:10:32.875
I think it was at this point.

00:10:32.905 --> 00:10:33.115
Yeah.

00:10:33.115 --> 00:10:34.015
And I was living alone.

00:10:34.015 --> 00:10:34.945
I was in Utah.

00:10:35.155 --> 00:10:38.845
I was doing hair, running my own
business and I was experiencing

00:10:38.845 --> 00:10:42.265
all these terrible symptoms and I
was miserable and not doing well.

00:10:42.265 --> 00:10:46.015
And then long story short, got diagnosed
with an autoimmune disorder called

00:10:46.015 --> 00:10:49.435
Hashimoto's that has to do with my
thyroid and your thyroid effects

00:10:49.435 --> 00:10:50.725
literally everything in your body.

00:10:50.755 --> 00:10:50.845
Yeah.

00:10:50.905 --> 00:10:51.655
If you don't know.

00:10:51.745 --> 00:10:52.165
I did not.

00:10:52.165 --> 00:10:53.185
I still don't really understand at all.

00:10:53.185 --> 00:10:53.425
Yeah,

00:10:53.485 --> 00:10:54.085
it's a lot.

00:10:54.415 --> 00:10:57.895
And anyways, then got diagnosed with
that, then started treatment for that.

00:10:57.895 --> 00:11:03.245
And then made a lot of changes
in my lifestyle and my habits

00:11:03.245 --> 00:11:07.585
and , how I eat, how I move, how
I think, how like everything.

00:11:08.545 --> 00:11:09.805
And so that shifted everything.

00:11:09.805 --> 00:11:12.135
I lost 65, 70 pounds,

00:11:12.165 --> 00:11:12.855
which is wild.

00:11:12.855 --> 00:11:12.945
Right.

00:11:12.945 --> 00:11:13.035
Put

00:11:13.035 --> 00:11:13.995
some of that back on.

00:11:14.505 --> 00:11:17.175
But you know, what can you do?

00:11:17.675 --> 00:11:18.335
, Moved.

00:11:18.425 --> 00:11:19.535
We moved to Arizona.

00:11:19.565 --> 00:11:19.865
Yeah.

00:11:20.345 --> 00:11:21.215
That was the biggest.

00:11:21.740 --> 00:11:26.270
Change of my life and my, my life is
completely flipped from where it was

00:11:26.270 --> 00:11:29.300
when I got diagnosed and all that in
the span coming down to my career shift.

00:11:29.370 --> 00:11:31.290
. And so in span of one year Yes.

00:11:31.410 --> 00:11:31.920
Everything

00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:32.700
flipped upside down.

00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:34.360
which ended up being in a positive way.

00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:35.930
. But going in, what were the thoughts?

00:11:35.930 --> 00:11:36.470
Brutal.

00:11:36.590 --> 00:11:37.670
.  Absolutely terrifying.

00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:39.830
Not a fan of change.

00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:42.210
Which is funny 'cause , I would've
told you it wasn't a big deal for me.

00:11:42.260 --> 00:11:43.850
'cause you know, some people
are really scared of change.

00:11:43.880 --> 00:11:44.030
Yeah.

00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:46.340
And it's like the most
daunting thing that can happen.

00:11:46.670 --> 00:11:48.110
I would've told you I was not like that.

00:11:48.115 --> 00:11:48.265
Yeah.

00:11:48.285 --> 00:11:50.300
And I would've told you that I
would embrace it and it was a

00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:51.740
positive thing and it was great.

00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:53.280
But then it, the actual moment it was.

00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:55.280
Absolutely terrifying.

00:11:55.280 --> 00:11:57.110
And I was uncomfy the whole time.

00:11:57.210 --> 00:11:57.930
. Until I wasn't.

00:11:58.090 --> 00:11:59.093
. , 'Cause what is the phrase?

00:11:59.103 --> 00:12:02.163
, Be brave or do it anyway, or
be afraid and do it anyway.

00:12:02.283 --> 00:12:03.363
It's literally on your arm

00:12:04.173 --> 00:12:04.323
afraid

00:12:04.323 --> 00:12:04.743
and do it anyway.

00:12:04.743 --> 00:12:04.803
Be afraid and do it anyway.

00:12:04.803 --> 00:12:05.073
So yeah.

00:12:05.073 --> 00:12:06.993
Brave on my arm so I could
see why you would say no.

00:12:06.993 --> 00:12:07.863
That's my motto.

00:12:07.923 --> 00:12:08.193
Yeah.

00:12:08.193 --> 00:12:09.873
And I would've told you that confidently.

00:12:09.933 --> 00:12:10.023
Yeah.

00:12:10.023 --> 00:12:12.273
And then when I was actually
the one faced with it, it was

00:12:12.273 --> 00:12:13.893
like, oh, I get why this sucks.

00:12:13.973 --> 00:12:15.703
. You know what's crazy , , you never know.

00:12:15.973 --> 00:12:19.613
I don't like the phrase rock bottom, but I
do, , think that's a hindsight principle.

00:12:19.643 --> 00:12:19.733
Mm-hmm.

00:12:20.003 --> 00:12:22.703
So in any given moment, you think
this is the worst it could ever be.

00:12:22.708 --> 00:12:22.778
Mm-hmm.

00:12:23.333 --> 00:12:26.483
And then you get through it, and then
a lot of times that wasn't so bad.

00:12:26.783 --> 00:12:29.723
And then the hope is that, and
it'll never be that bad again.

00:12:30.713 --> 00:12:33.983
And then you get smacked down with
something else Right back there.

00:12:33.983 --> 00:12:34.463
Yeah.

00:12:34.463 --> 00:12:34.473
Yeah.

00:12:34.713 --> 00:12:34.953
, That's life.

00:12:35.373 --> 00:12:38.303
. , Now, currently, how's that, , Hashimoto's?

00:12:38.813 --> 00:12:41.033
Well, that's the thing that's
a real bummer if we would've.

00:12:41.033 --> 00:12:43.783
I recorded this two or three months ago.

00:12:44.383 --> 00:12:45.373
Prime of my life.

00:12:45.373 --> 00:12:46.483
I was doing great.

00:12:46.993 --> 00:12:52.193
And then more change numbers
shifted, not so great.

00:12:52.643 --> 00:12:52.653
Yeah.

00:12:52.883 --> 00:12:53.153
Yeah.

00:12:53.153 --> 00:12:56.803
Not doing so great, but
it'll probably get better.

00:12:57.043 --> 00:12:58.933
Well, is that, is the probably.

00:12:59.473 --> 00:13:01.003
I don't, do you believe it right now?

00:13:01.803 --> 00:13:04.683
I think in, I think it's the thing I
know long term it'll probably get better,

00:13:04.683 --> 00:13:07.713
but then I also know realistically it's
then also going to get worse again.

00:13:07.813 --> 00:13:08.533
,  
Well, I've thought about this.

00:13:08.533 --> 00:13:12.568
When people get sick, even as a,
as a 30 5-year-old male right now.

00:13:15.668 --> 00:13:15.958
Okay.

00:13:16.018 --> 00:13:18.763
The way I confident, I
was like, yeah, for sure.

00:13:20.113 --> 00:13:21.553
As a 55-year-old male,

00:13:21.853 --> 00:13:23.143
I literally wouldn't have questioned it.

00:13:23.143 --> 00:13:23.833
That's what's crazy.

00:13:23.833 --> 00:13:24.358
I was like, yeah, I know.

00:13:24.358 --> 00:13:24.733
I paused.

00:13:24.733 --> 00:13:25.243
Absolutely.

00:13:25.323 --> 00:13:29.853
.  , when I get sick, I often think it really
does feel like I will never feel better.

00:13:29.943 --> 00:13:31.563
And that's what, like when you
can't breathe outta your nose.

00:13:31.563 --> 00:13:31.653
Yeah.

00:13:31.653 --> 00:13:34.113
You can't remember what it was like to
ever breathe through your nose and all.

00:13:34.113 --> 00:13:34.353
Yeah,

00:13:34.443 --> 00:13:34.743
yeah.

00:13:34.803 --> 00:13:35.013
Yeah.

00:13:35.013 --> 00:13:35.943
And that's very real.

00:13:36.043 --> 00:13:38.443
, then I'm sitting here with somebody
and I'll say, they'll talk about

00:13:38.443 --> 00:13:40.243
some rough thing and they've
been through rough things before.

00:13:40.243 --> 00:13:43.603
And I'll say, , , do you have confidence
at this point that it will get better?

00:13:43.693 --> 00:13:46.603
And the answer for a lot of
people is, no, not really.

00:13:46.603 --> 00:13:49.843
And that is more of the acceptance that,
oh, I'm accepting the fact that I, I

00:13:49.843 --> 00:13:52.993
don't feel that way right now, but I'm
gonna go ahead and , do things anyway.

00:13:52.998 --> 00:13:53.208
Yeah.

00:13:53.593 --> 00:13:55.033
.  And then slowly you're kind of Okay.

00:13:55.633 --> 00:13:56.143
That's the hope.

00:13:57.143 --> 00:13:58.223
, And I was thinking about this too.

00:13:58.283 --> 00:14:02.648
Tell me, this is , a nerdy thing, I like
to, , challenge, I was gonna say criticize

00:14:02.648 --> 00:14:06.653
cognitive behavioral therapy a lot, even
though I was a. CBT therapist for years.

00:14:06.703 --> 00:14:08.233
, It's that your thoughts
lead your emotions.

00:14:08.233 --> 00:14:11.353
Your emotions lead to your behaviors,
and so you've got automatic negative

00:14:11.353 --> 00:14:12.673
thoughts or your stinking thinking.

00:14:12.678 --> 00:14:12.898
Mm-hmm.

00:14:12.998 --> 00:14:14.178
So you just have, I'm
good at that by the way.

00:14:14.248 --> 00:14:14.538
Okay.

00:14:14.538 --> 00:14:14.698
Right?

00:14:14.698 --> 00:14:14.938
Mm-hmm.

00:14:15.023 --> 00:14:18.853
Um, so all you have to do is change your
thought and look at it a different way,

00:14:19.063 --> 00:14:20.053
and boom, you're cured

00:14:20.053 --> 00:14:21.253
and that leads to a different emotion.

00:14:21.283 --> 00:14:22.333
Maybe it feels a little better.

00:14:22.333 --> 00:14:24.853
And then a behavior of, oh,
I'm gonna do this stuff.

00:14:25.303 --> 00:14:29.853
And what, hit me at one point was you
get through enough of those things and

00:14:30.063 --> 00:14:33.903
you tell yourself even, well, I didn't
realize when I was going through it

00:14:33.903 --> 00:14:37.563
before that it actually turned out to
be something I wasn't even aware of.

00:14:38.043 --> 00:14:40.623
And so I think then in hindsight,
you can say, well, okay, so moving

00:14:40.623 --> 00:14:43.173
forward I need to challenge and
say, well, maybe it's something

00:14:43.173 --> 00:14:45.003
different than I really think it is.

00:14:45.303 --> 00:14:48.933
But then when you're in it, you're telling
yourself, no, this one's different.

00:14:49.203 --> 00:14:50.043
This is way different.

00:14:50.433 --> 00:14:51.093
Does that make sense?

00:14:51.333 --> 00:14:52.023
No, it does.

00:14:52.083 --> 00:14:52.263
Yeah.

00:14:52.263 --> 00:14:56.073
And so then everything in a sense feels
like rock bottom, even if it's not

00:14:56.223 --> 00:14:56.433
Yeah.

00:14:56.433 --> 00:14:57.333
It could be framed that way.

00:14:57.363 --> 00:14:58.158
So, which I, because in

00:14:58.163 --> 00:15:00.783
that moment it feels just as big, even if.

00:15:01.413 --> 00:15:02.373
Technically it's not.

00:15:02.473 --> 00:15:04.993
. So I'm trying to think of a good example
of that, of, , thinking of somebody

00:15:04.993 --> 00:15:07.553
that I'm working with right now,
that , they thought that, , something

00:15:07.553 --> 00:15:10.673
was happening at their job and
they were so terrified and worried.

00:15:10.673 --> 00:15:15.263
And, and then as a act therapist, you're
just saying, man, that would be hard.

00:15:15.263 --> 00:15:15.353
Mm-hmm.

00:15:15.623 --> 00:15:16.523
Tell me more about that.

00:15:16.553 --> 00:15:18.713
, You're not trying to tell 'em,
well, could it possibly be

00:15:18.713 --> 00:15:20.333
this, or look at it this way?

00:15:20.663 --> 00:15:23.633
'cause if you do, you can see the
person isn't really buying it.

00:15:23.873 --> 00:15:25.703
They're like, I mean, I guess it could be.

00:15:25.943 --> 00:15:28.463
And then she got through it and
it turned out that it wasn't

00:15:28.463 --> 00:15:29.513
anything that she thought it was.

00:15:29.523 --> 00:15:33.873
And then it made sense afterward, but
in the moment it didn't make any sense.

00:15:34.273 --> 00:15:37.063
, But moving forward, I could see
how then somebody, like a therapist

00:15:37.063 --> 00:15:39.613
could say, well, have you ever had
this situation like that before

00:15:39.613 --> 00:15:40.513
and you turned out to be wrong?

00:15:40.513 --> 00:15:41.803
I guess that's literally
what I'm saying right now.

00:15:41.803 --> 00:15:43.663
Today, the theme of today's podcast,

00:15:44.463 --> 00:15:45.693
have you ever been wrong before?

00:15:45.868 --> 00:15:45.988
Right.

00:15:46.018 --> 00:15:46.893
Have you ever looked at it?

00:15:46.943 --> 00:15:50.048
. So accepting that it, this just
kind of is right now mm-hmm.

00:15:50.188 --> 00:15:52.523
Is probably a good place to start from.

00:15:52.763 --> 00:15:52.913
Mm-hmm.

00:15:53.633 --> 00:15:54.053
Uh, okay.

00:15:54.053 --> 00:15:55.853
I did write a couple of other
questions though about you being an

00:15:55.853 --> 00:15:56.903
esthetician that I'm curious about.

00:15:57.053 --> 00:16:00.443
Is there anything that you absolutely did
not expect about being an esthetician?

00:16:00.473 --> 00:16:01.733
For better or for worse?

00:16:02.533 --> 00:16:03.883
Throwing me on the spot.

00:16:03.943 --> 00:16:04.123
Do you?

00:16:04.128 --> 00:16:04.268
Okay.

00:16:04.268 --> 00:16:05.503
Do you want me to give you an example?

00:16:05.683 --> 00:16:05.833
Yeah.

00:16:05.893 --> 00:16:06.463
In my world?

00:16:06.553 --> 00:16:06.613
Yeah.

00:16:06.613 --> 00:16:06.883
Okay.

00:16:07.073 --> 00:16:11.483
I was just writing about this
recently that, , I never anticipated

00:16:11.903 --> 00:16:14.557
how much I would be blamed
for other people's challenges

00:16:14.627 --> 00:16:18.245
. , , I joke all the time, I actually
don't have the power to ruin your

00:16:18.245 --> 00:16:23.195
marriage, to change your orientation
to, , tell you to leave , a religion to,

00:16:23.195 --> 00:16:23.840
but it's easy to throw that on you.

00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:24.000
Yeah.

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.965
When you are the kind of dude
sitting there while that's coming up.

00:16:27.995 --> 00:16:28.085
Yeah.

00:16:28.085 --> 00:16:31.685
, I think people often don't have the
courage, maybe that sounds dramatic,

00:16:31.895 --> 00:16:35.705
to then say, oh no, this was actually
a me thing and this therapist

00:16:35.705 --> 00:16:37.655
helped me understand myself better.

00:16:37.715 --> 00:16:37.805
Mm-hmm.

00:16:38.315 --> 00:16:41.255
Because I just recently
got a. I got an email.

00:16:41.255 --> 00:16:43.865
I don't get these very often, but
somebody was just telling me, I can't

00:16:43.865 --> 00:16:46.175
believe you told my spouse to leave.

00:16:46.775 --> 00:16:49.925
And I, I didn't, and I know that
I didn't, and I can't even really

00:16:49.925 --> 00:16:53.225
respond to them because that would
be unethical because I, I'm not even

00:16:53.225 --> 00:16:55.025
acknowledging that I met with the spouse.

00:16:55.175 --> 00:16:55.445
Right.

00:16:55.625 --> 00:16:57.125
But then that's kinda how it gets spun.

00:16:57.185 --> 00:16:57.485
Yeah.

00:16:57.485 --> 00:16:58.325
And then put on you.

00:16:58.655 --> 00:16:58.895
Yeah.

00:16:58.900 --> 00:17:00.040
No, that is, that's heavy.

00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:00.280
Okay.

00:17:00.280 --> 00:17:00.400
And

00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:01.445
I, I jotted this down.

00:17:01.445 --> 00:17:04.135
I even, , thought about, okay,
so last night, , when you were

00:17:04.135 --> 00:17:05.515
talking about wanting chicken salad.

00:17:06.315 --> 00:17:06.525
Yeah.

00:17:06.675 --> 00:17:07.155
Do you remember?

00:17:07.275 --> 00:17:10.065
So I was actually being hilarious about
this 'cause I was just writing about this.

00:17:10.305 --> 00:17:14.325
So I just said, oh, um, well, I can tell
you I think you would like it, but Yeah.

00:17:14.330 --> 00:17:14.890
And then, but you did.

00:17:15.255 --> 00:17:18.675
And so then if you , did not like
it, then you could say, well,

00:17:18.675 --> 00:17:19.785
why'd you tell me to get it then?

00:17:20.085 --> 00:17:22.510
And if you do like it, then
you can say, you know what, I,

00:17:22.515 --> 00:17:23.835
I knew I would like it anyway.

00:17:24.075 --> 00:17:26.505
And so then imagine that
you'd paid me to say that.

00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:29.250
Then you would even think, why do
I even go to a therapist anyway?

00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:30.240
'cause I, that was what I knew.

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:30.845
I kind of a lose loose.

00:17:30.850 --> 00:17:32.125
I should have thought
through it regardless.

00:17:32.435 --> 00:17:32.725
Yeah.

00:17:32.725 --> 00:17:34.290
Of which is part of which is fine.

00:17:34.290 --> 00:17:34.925
It's not like, yeah.

00:17:35.100 --> 00:17:38.580
It's so hard to be that 'cause
you just kinda get used to it.

00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:40.830
So there's my example of
the good, good and the bad.

00:17:40.830 --> 00:17:43.410
Every now and again though, I will
be told, man, you change my life.

00:17:43.410 --> 00:17:44.850
And I'll say, what, what?

00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:45.780
Like, how did I help with that?

00:17:45.780 --> 00:17:46.470
And they'll tell me something.

00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:47.410
I'm like, oh, I didn't do that.

00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:48.330
I did not say that.

00:17:48.540 --> 00:17:50.310
But if, if that's what you got
out of it, but you got from it.

00:17:50.310 --> 00:17:50.730
Sure.

00:17:50.780 --> 00:17:51.005
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:52.310
So, I dunno, anything
come to mind for you?

00:17:52.610 --> 00:17:55.790
I've a couple things and I don't know
if it even really answers the question,

00:17:55.790 --> 00:18:01.380
but I feel like I've been like, it's
been cool to see how, 'cause okay, so

00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:05.880
as a hairstylist there is an element
of like touch to it obviously, but

00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:10.080
it's more so like the connection I
was making with people was the hours

00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:14.170
of conversation that we were having
at each appointment and that's where

00:18:14.170 --> 00:18:15.430
the connection was coming from.

00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.810
And I've been surprised at through
being an aesthetician where you're

00:18:18.810 --> 00:18:22.560
just like, it's a little bit more
quiet, it's a little bit more calm.

00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:23.790
You're not having as many.

00:18:24.330 --> 00:18:30.860
Conversations, but it's been like really
neat to see the impact that just like

00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:35.900
physical touch has in terms of connection,
if that makes any sense at all.

00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:39.310
,  It makes a lot of sense 'cause the
whole, the mind body connection or

00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:42.400
people, like I've heard, I've had
clients that are massage therapists Yeah.

00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:45.580
Or physical therapists that talk
about there's this power there.

00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:46.090
Yeah.

00:18:46.090 --> 00:18:47.350
And it's like very healing.

00:18:47.350 --> 00:18:50.500
And it's really cool to be a part
of and be like on that side of it.

00:18:50.530 --> 00:18:53.920
And it's neat because I was a little
bit worried going into aesthetics that

00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.620
I would lose that ability to connect
with people if that, you know, 'cause

00:18:57.620 --> 00:18:59.120
I loved that part of doing hair.

00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:02.100
.  And I knew with this I
wouldn't be chatting as much.

00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:03.430
.  But it's like the
connection is still there.

00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:04.720
It's just in a different way.

00:19:04.870 --> 00:19:09.190
And then also I think I've just been,
it's further shown me how much self-care

00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:12.840
matters and how much, taking a little bit
of time, even if just to come in and get

00:19:12.840 --> 00:19:17.190
a facial what that can do for somebody's
like day or their confidence or.

00:19:17.820 --> 00:19:18.660
Those moments.

00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:19.890
So there's cool things like that.

00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.530
But then the other thing I think of
that I don't know if this is a positive

00:19:22.530 --> 00:19:27.690
or a negative, is that I now can feel
when there are germs on my hands.

00:19:27.695 --> 00:19:27.915
Oh.

00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:30.900
And I had never experienced that
in my whole life, but something

00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.330
like being an a an esthetician,
you're touching people's faces.

00:19:33.330 --> 00:19:35.820
You're dealing with like blood,
like you're, you know, yeah.

00:19:35.820 --> 00:19:36.420
It's intense.

00:19:37.260 --> 00:19:42.040
You have to be so sanitary that like,
you get in this habit of there's like

00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:44.560
a joke that estheticians smell, like
hand sanitizer and like it's just,

00:19:44.560 --> 00:19:45.520
you know, like it's just a thing.

00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:48.820
So I'm like always wearing gloves
and I'm even with my gloves,

00:19:48.820 --> 00:19:49.990
I'm still doing hand sanitizer.

00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:51.430
I'm washing my hands constantly.

00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:51.640
Wow.

00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:54.880
I get home, like my
mother can attest to this.

00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.790
I get home and the first thing I do now
is run to the sink and wash my hands.

00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.640
And I was never like
that in my whole life.

00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.440
And I now seriously feel like I can
feel when and now that I'm thinking

00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:04.430
about it, I'm about to lose my mind.

00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:05.750
Do you want some hand sanitizer?

00:20:06.620 --> 00:20:07.565
Well, is it, does it I'll survive.

00:20:07.565 --> 00:20:07.805
Does.

00:20:07.810 --> 00:20:07.970
But it's

00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:11.450
so interesting 'cause I was, I never paid
attention to that or cared about that.

00:20:11.540 --> 00:20:11.690
Yeah.

00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:12.680
And now I seriously am like.

00:20:13.295 --> 00:20:14.195
I need to be clean.

00:20:14.255 --> 00:20:14.405
Well, is

00:20:14.405 --> 00:20:18.425
there any part of it that will it will
an OCD vibe, catch hold there Potentially

00:20:18.935 --> 00:20:19.625
a little bit.

00:20:19.625 --> 00:20:19.805
Yeah.

00:20:19.805 --> 00:20:21.985
And that's kinda what it feels like
sometimes where I'm like, I, if I don't

00:20:21.985 --> 00:20:24.085
do this right now, I'm gonna freak out.

00:20:24.145 --> 00:20:24.475
Yeah.

00:20:25.015 --> 00:20:28.555
Do you, can you tell when you
are or does some people's skin

00:20:28.555 --> 00:20:30.295
just seem cleaner than others?

00:20:30.295 --> 00:20:33.205
Or is this just a feeling
of touching people's skin?

00:20:33.775 --> 00:20:35.245
I don't even think it's
necessarily about the skin.

00:20:35.280 --> 00:20:36.415
It's, it's like anything.

00:20:36.475 --> 00:20:39.955
Like, it's just, even if now I'm like
very aware of my steering wheel and I'm

00:20:39.955 --> 00:20:43.315
like, there are germs on this, my phone,
I've started disinfecting my phone.

00:20:43.375 --> 00:20:43.885
Okay.

00:20:43.945 --> 00:20:46.885
Like weird things like that,
that I never paid attention to.

00:20:46.885 --> 00:20:48.895
And now I, I feel it.

00:20:49.465 --> 00:20:51.975
I, I want to make a joke of
where in a few months we'll be

00:20:51.975 --> 00:20:52.725
doing one of these episodes.

00:20:52.725 --> 00:20:54.765
You'll be here, you know,
just wearing a hazmat suit.

00:20:54.765 --> 00:20:55.425
It's not a big deal.

00:20:55.430 --> 00:20:55.440
Yeah.

00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.800
No big deal.

00:20:55.815 --> 00:20:56.295
It's fine.

00:20:56.475 --> 00:20:56.925
Totally fine.

00:20:56.975 --> 00:20:57.155
Yeah.

00:20:57.955 --> 00:20:58.395
Don't do that.

00:21:00.545 --> 00:21:00.835
Okay.

00:21:01.215 --> 00:21:02.390
You need an alcohol wipe.

00:21:03.530 --> 00:21:04.580
I do have hand sanitizer over here.

00:21:04.790 --> 00:21:05.390
No, I'll survive.

00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:05.570
Okay.

00:21:05.570 --> 00:21:05.930
Are you sure?

00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:06.380
Okay.

00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:07.580
It's exposure therapy.

00:21:07.580 --> 00:21:08.210
It's good for me.

00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:08.720
Okay.

00:21:08.810 --> 00:21:11.270
Which is a funny thing, like
exposure, response, prevention.

00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:13.130
I still, I still haven't
thoughts about it.

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:15.980
It's, it's a good thing, but then
I just think if it's something

00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:18.440
that really matters to you, then
that would be easier than not.

00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:20.870
So this would be 'cause
you like your career?

00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:21.920
I do, yeah.

00:21:22.190 --> 00:21:22.400
Okay.

00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.380
Have you seen any kind of
wacky skin things though?

00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:25.570
Not really.

00:21:25.570 --> 00:21:29.620
I'm still very early into it, Uhhuh
and because of my, I work more with

00:21:29.830 --> 00:21:31.870
students than I do with clients.

00:21:31.990 --> 00:21:32.260
Okay.

00:21:32.260 --> 00:21:33.970
Talk about your job right now
because your job is really cool,

00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:36.790
what you do and how cool was it
that you got the job that you did?

00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:37.780
Yeah, it was really cool.

00:21:37.785 --> 00:21:39.430
It's been, you can, you can
promote whoever you want here

00:21:39.430 --> 00:21:40.840
'cause I want to interview Mariah.

00:21:40.870 --> 00:21:41.230
Yeah.

00:21:41.620 --> 00:21:41.920
Yeah.

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:47.870
I got hired back at the school I went
to, and so I work there as I do their

00:21:47.870 --> 00:21:51.320
social media, but then I also help in
the clinic and then I do all like the

00:21:51.320 --> 00:21:53.570
tours and everything for new students.

00:21:53.570 --> 00:21:54.740
So I'm like very involved.

00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:56.990
And it's been the greatest thing ever.

00:21:57.170 --> 00:21:59.240
And yeah, my boss,
Mariah, is the best human.

00:21:59.240 --> 00:21:59.975
She's pretty cool that's ever existed.

00:21:59.975 --> 00:21:59.995
Pretty cool.

00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:00.140
Yeah.

00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.920
But so I get to, I'm still very
involved in it, but I'm not like

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.370
I'm with students and like in the
clinic more than I am hands-on taking

00:22:09.370 --> 00:22:11.230
actual clients right this second.

00:22:11.310 --> 00:22:12.870
So, no, I haven't seen anything crazy.

00:22:12.930 --> 00:22:13.200
Okay.

00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:13.920
Yet.

00:22:14.040 --> 00:22:15.390
Do you hear about crazy stuff

00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:16.740
here and there?

00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:17.010
Yeah.

00:22:17.070 --> 00:22:17.340
Yeah.

00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:17.790
Yeah.

00:22:17.790 --> 00:22:21.550
Any, any anything that you people see and
go, oh man, you don't wanna run into this?

00:22:22.300 --> 00:22:23.110
Not really.

00:22:23.110 --> 00:22:26.040
There's just I mean, there's more
technical things where there are certain

00:22:26.040 --> 00:22:28.710
skin conditions where you see that
and it's this is not an aesthetician's

00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:31.180
job and that is go to a dermatologist.

00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:31.690
Oh yeah.

00:22:31.695 --> 00:22:35.560
Like, there's certain things like
that and like if you see a cold sore,

00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:37.450
you're supposed to say Absolutely not.

00:22:37.450 --> 00:22:38.590
And like, you know, yeah.

00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:41.860
There's little things like that,
but nothing absolutely insane.

00:22:41.860 --> 00:22:42.850
I can't even think of what I'm thinking.

00:22:42.850 --> 00:22:43.060
I know.

00:22:43.060 --> 00:22:44.530
I don't even, I'm like, not really.

00:22:45.610 --> 00:22:46.360
I don't even have, I
don't even have a go-to.

00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:47.790
Yeah.

00:22:48.145 --> 00:22:50.485
Do you ever watch the, like, Dr.
Pimple popper videos or anything?

00:22:50.485 --> 00:22:50.515
I

00:22:50.515 --> 00:22:50.755
do.

00:22:50.755 --> 00:22:53.395
Which is funny 'cause I used to
gross me out and I couldn't do it.

00:22:53.395 --> 00:22:54.760
And now I kinda like it.

00:22:55.360 --> 00:22:55.810
I do too.

00:22:56.230 --> 00:22:56.420
It's not fun.

00:22:56.420 --> 00:22:59.770
Um, I just ran into some, a few
nights ago that are on animals,

00:23:00.570 --> 00:23:01.020
cats.

00:23:01.080 --> 00:23:01.380
Yes.

00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:02.610
Cats get little blackhead.

00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:03.240
Yeah.

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:03.250
Yeah.

00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:04.350
It's wild.

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.600
I think we should get a cat at the house.

00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:07.665
You've always wanted to get a cat.

00:23:07.665 --> 00:23:08.010
I have.

00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:09.480
This is an excuse for it.

00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.480
. Now if we're talking about
growth through change

00:23:13.530 --> 00:23:16.710
so I feel like before we go into
more what you wanna talk about

00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:20.490
with change, you have to at least
briefly explain your career path.

00:23:20.495 --> 00:23:22.175
.  , . And I did not realize
that that played a role.

00:23:22.175 --> 00:23:23.075
That's, that's kind of fun.

00:23:23.105 --> 00:23:23.375
Yeah.

00:23:23.475 --> 00:23:25.515
, We'll talk about my dad a little
bit later on, but he spent 30

00:23:25.515 --> 00:23:27.075
years in the same industry.

00:23:27.195 --> 00:23:30.315
And so there was a part of me that
thought, you get a job and you just

00:23:30.345 --> 00:23:32.325
do it, and you stay in it forever.

00:23:32.505 --> 00:23:36.435
And so I was in the computer industry
for a decade, which felt like forever.

00:23:36.735 --> 00:23:37.425
And I really did.

00:23:37.425 --> 00:23:39.495
It was wild because it
wasn't what I loved.

00:23:39.765 --> 00:23:40.005
Right.

00:23:40.239 --> 00:23:43.509
I can't even imagine going back into
my mind at that point because I just

00:23:43.509 --> 00:23:44.529
thought, well, this is what you do.

00:23:44.589 --> 00:23:46.809
You just buckle down and you
don't really like your job.

00:23:46.809 --> 00:23:46.869
Were

00:23:46.869 --> 00:23:48.759
you miserable or were you
just like, this is okay?

00:23:48.849 --> 00:23:49.419
It was okay.

00:23:49.719 --> 00:23:51.639
I traveled a lot, which was fun.

00:23:51.689 --> 00:23:55.049
, I did a lot of trade shows and
I would, uh, it's really funny.

00:23:55.049 --> 00:23:56.759
So I would do software
demonstrations mm-hmm.

00:23:56.999 --> 00:23:58.859
And kind of what I was known for.

00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:00.509
And I, I forgot about this.

00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:03.629
And somebody was commenting on it,
not, not that long ago, on, on.

00:24:04.199 --> 00:24:07.889
Facebook that, oh, I remember when, and
I would do this software demonstration.

00:24:07.889 --> 00:24:10.619
Our software was kind of boring,
so I had to make it really cool.

00:24:10.649 --> 00:24:10.739
Yeah.

00:24:10.949 --> 00:24:14.189
And we would always have a really cool
booth and we had a , big TV at the time.

00:24:14.189 --> 00:24:16.929
And, and I would wrangle
people that are walking by at

00:24:16.929 --> 00:24:18.849
a trade show in, Hey, whatever.

00:24:18.879 --> 00:24:20.589
Do you want to see how
fast a hard drive is?

00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:20.949
I don't know.

00:24:21.009 --> 00:24:21.909
I can't remember how I did it.

00:24:21.909 --> 00:24:22.179
Juggle.

00:24:22.179 --> 00:24:22.269
Oh,

00:24:22.804 --> 00:24:22.884
I did.

00:24:23.204 --> 00:24:25.419
I would juggle, I would, I
would give away t-shirts.

00:24:25.419 --> 00:24:27.129
I would give away, we would
always have like little things.

00:24:27.189 --> 00:24:30.369
And then I would go around to everybody's
booth around me and I would say, Hey, how

00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:32.199
about I give away this from this booth?

00:24:32.199 --> 00:24:33.669
And, and it just made people laugh.

00:24:33.669 --> 00:24:35.499
And I would demonstrate the software
a little bit and I would just

00:24:35.499 --> 00:24:38.049
basically do, uh, improv comedy.

00:24:38.349 --> 00:24:39.639
So it wasn't even about the software.

00:24:39.639 --> 00:24:41.229
Not a lot, no.

00:24:41.229 --> 00:24:44.409
It was more, and it, and I, if I had
ever been a real comedian, I, I think

00:24:44.409 --> 00:24:47.524
I would've enjoyed crowd work because
I just enjoy, you do that constantly.

00:24:47.724 --> 00:24:48.684
I do day to day work.

00:24:48.744 --> 00:24:49.124
Do I do.

00:24:49.239 --> 00:24:50.439
And that's what I was doing.

00:24:50.499 --> 00:24:51.069
Isn't that funny?

00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:51.309
Yeah.

00:24:51.369 --> 00:24:54.969
And so that I did that, I traveled
a lot, but honestly I didn't really.

00:24:55.794 --> 00:24:59.004
I didn't, I wasn't, uh, just
this diehard computer guy.

00:24:59.094 --> 00:24:59.184
Mm-hmm.

00:24:59.424 --> 00:25:01.074
And our software was pretty technical.

00:25:01.104 --> 00:25:04.314
And so even when I tried
to understand it, I didn't.

00:25:04.614 --> 00:25:04.854
Yeah.

00:25:04.854 --> 00:25:07.974
And , I would get sent to these technical
conferences where I didn't really know

00:25:07.974 --> 00:25:10.964
anything and I was trying to , build
relationships because then that company,

00:25:10.964 --> 00:25:14.474
we might do something with the company
and I just wasn't, that wasn't my vibe.

00:25:14.489 --> 00:25:14.779
Yeah.

00:25:14.984 --> 00:25:18.284
. So even though it's funny because as a
therapist, I like connecting with anybody,

00:25:18.644 --> 00:25:24.134
but I think I was so insecure because they
all wanted to talk about the primary and

00:25:24.134 --> 00:25:26.834
secondary defect list on a optical drives.

00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.659
Directory and what you
do with bad sectors and

00:25:30.929 --> 00:25:32.039
they'd lose you pretty quick.

00:25:32.189 --> 00:25:32.399
That stuff.

00:25:32.879 --> 00:25:35.099
Well, and what I realize now, this
has like been one of the biggest

00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:39.129
takeaways early on when I was really
getting into therapy was, , this

00:25:39.189 --> 00:25:41.019
concept , that I was calling healthy Ego.

00:25:41.049 --> 00:25:44.259
, It's things that you know, because
it's based on your real experience.

00:25:44.499 --> 00:25:48.699
And so as a therapist, the things I know,
I know because I, I love them and I'm

00:25:48.699 --> 00:25:51.219
gonna read about 'em and I'm gonna talk
about 'em and I'm gonna research 'em.

00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:52.989
I'm gonna say, oh, I
didn't know that about 'em.

00:25:53.349 --> 00:25:56.679
And then when I didn't know what
I didn't know, I pretended that

00:25:56.679 --> 00:25:59.499
I knew about the pri honestly
primary secondary defect list.

00:25:59.499 --> 00:25:59.589
Mm-hmm.

00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:04.419
What we do with bad sectors, we
pre-cash the CD ROM drive so we

00:26:04.419 --> 00:26:06.399
could access the data faster.

00:26:06.399 --> 00:26:08.649
And I could say all those things,
but the second somebody would

00:26:08.649 --> 00:26:10.149
ask me a question even more.

00:26:10.629 --> 00:26:14.079
The bummer was, I would kind of think,
well, I, I think I know how that works.

00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.689
So I would say it, and then
somebody would say, oh, well that

00:26:16.689 --> 00:26:18.609
doesn't make sense because it
this, that's actually very wrong.

00:26:18.639 --> 00:26:18.969
Yeah.

00:26:18.969 --> 00:26:21.729
And so I'm just, I'm doing a little tap
dance there trying to get 'em out of it.

00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:25.629
But now I realize, boy, if somebody
was saying that to me now, like I can

00:26:25.629 --> 00:26:28.449
think of some clients before that have
talked about things with addiction

00:26:28.449 --> 00:26:30.729
or things like that, and it's maybe
the person that's struggling with the

00:26:30.729 --> 00:26:33.549
addiction and it's couples therapy and
they're saying things that it's like

00:26:33.724 --> 00:26:34.914
, that actually isn't the way it works.

00:26:34.944 --> 00:26:37.254
That is not very, he's like, well,
you know how it's okay to do this.

00:26:37.254 --> 00:26:41.184
Or, I remember one of the first clients
that was talking about, he had to, like,

00:26:41.184 --> 00:26:44.064
his doctor told him, I have to look at
pornography sometimes because of whatever.

00:26:44.064 --> 00:26:45.984
And he's like, you know
how that works, Tony?

00:26:45.984 --> 00:26:47.394
It was like, I don't, no,

00:26:47.394 --> 00:26:48.354
not even a little bit, but tell me

00:26:48.354 --> 00:26:48.654
more.

00:26:48.864 --> 00:26:49.494
Tell me more.

00:26:49.554 --> 00:26:52.644
And he's like, uh, so that, that
concept of healthy ego when I was

00:26:52.644 --> 00:26:55.284
in the software industry, I just
didn't know that you could actually

00:26:55.374 --> 00:26:59.094
not only enjoy your job and part of
enjoying your job is really knowing and

00:26:59.094 --> 00:27:03.684
understanding and feeling like you like
what you do and you want to know more.

00:27:04.344 --> 00:27:04.764
Well, okay.

00:27:04.764 --> 00:27:06.624
And that's just one side note.

00:27:06.654 --> 00:27:10.344
But that's 'cause I really did think
I liked hair and I enjoyed doing it.

00:27:10.344 --> 00:27:15.234
And I liked my clients, but I did not
care much about like the science of it.

00:27:15.249 --> 00:27:15.539
Okay.

00:27:15.654 --> 00:27:16.584
And the, oh

00:27:16.584 --> 00:27:16.944
yeah,

00:27:17.514 --> 00:27:21.054
the ingredients and like
that whole aspect of it.

00:27:21.114 --> 00:27:24.654
And I've been pleasantly surprised
with aesthetics that I care a lot.

00:27:24.654 --> 00:27:27.004
Like the other night at dinner
we were, I was nerding out.

00:27:27.004 --> 00:27:29.214
You and I was just like,
remember we were at Red Robin?

00:27:29.394 --> 00:27:29.964
Oh yeah.

00:27:29.964 --> 00:27:29.974
Yeah.

00:27:29.974 --> 00:27:30.534
That was fun.

00:27:30.654 --> 00:27:31.614
I was nerding out.

00:27:31.644 --> 00:27:31.954
Yes, you were.

00:27:31.954 --> 00:27:36.674
And it's like, I care a lot about every
aspect of it, not just the clients now.

00:27:36.734 --> 00:27:36.944
Yeah.

00:27:36.974 --> 00:27:38.444
And so that's been interesting too.

00:27:38.624 --> 00:27:39.089
No, that's exactly it.

00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:42.514
And I think there's something there
too where it's like you can have a job

00:27:42.514 --> 00:27:46.444
even that you like, but that doesn't
necessarily mean, it's like your passion.

00:27:46.459 --> 00:27:48.679
, You don't have to hate your job
to want to do something else.

00:27:48.684 --> 00:27:48.824
No.

00:27:48.824 --> 00:27:49.504
That, that's deep.

00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:52.459
And if you don't hate your job,
you can still do something else

00:27:52.819 --> 00:27:53.899
that you might like better.

00:27:54.409 --> 00:27:54.769
Okay.

00:27:54.889 --> 00:27:56.029
I hadn't really thought of it that way.

00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:56.299
Yeah.

00:27:56.329 --> 00:27:58.369
So it's like scaling it up basically,

00:27:58.429 --> 00:27:59.419
because I didn't hate it.

00:27:59.419 --> 00:28:02.149
It's not like I was miserable and I
was like, I need to get out of this.

00:28:02.209 --> 00:28:02.419
Yeah.

00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:03.949
I was okay.

00:28:03.949 --> 00:28:07.129
I was neutral, and then I had
health crap, and then I, you

00:28:07.129 --> 00:28:08.479
know, felt like I needed to shift.

00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:12.309
And I feel like I, I feel like I
shouldn't stand for 14 hours every

00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:15.659
day and like do whatever, you know,
but it's, again, I wasn't miserable,

00:28:15.959 --> 00:28:18.404
so it was like a stepping
point on the way, it's

00:28:18.404 --> 00:28:19.979
like the good, better, best type of thing.

00:28:19.979 --> 00:28:20.369
Yeah,

00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:20.379
yeah.

00:28:20.379 --> 00:28:20.404
Yeah.

00:28:20.729 --> 00:28:21.029
Okay.

00:28:21.029 --> 00:28:24.689
I found this, so I co-opted this
healthy ego concept from a lady

00:28:24.689 --> 00:28:26.999
named Eleanor Greenberg, who
writes a lot about narcissism.

00:28:27.239 --> 00:28:27.329
Okay.

00:28:27.379 --> 00:28:28.259
You cool if I go through this with you?

00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:28.284
Mm-hmm.

00:28:28.679 --> 00:28:31.919
I want to make a joke and say,
imagine if you can, a time when the

00:28:31.919 --> 00:28:33.269
word narcissism wasn't a negative.

00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:34.729
Isn't that wild?

00:28:34.879 --> 00:28:36.229
There was a, there was such a thing

00:28:36.899 --> 00:28:38.159
to me that is so not true.

00:28:38.439 --> 00:28:38.999
Well, that's what's

00:28:38.999 --> 00:28:39.079
funny.

00:28:39.179 --> 00:28:41.579
, Eleanor Greenberg says, unfortunately,
in the English language, the word

00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:44.129
narcissism has come to mean two
entirely different things, depending

00:28:44.189 --> 00:28:47.189
on whether it's being used formally
as a diagnosis, as a narcissistic.

00:28:47.504 --> 00:28:51.554
Personality disorder or informally is
a synonym for positive self regard.

00:28:52.034 --> 00:28:54.614
I'm often asked, isn't a little bit
of narcissism healthy and normal?

00:28:54.764 --> 00:28:56.654
And she said, I would like
to clarify that distinction.

00:28:56.984 --> 00:28:57.914
So this is interesting.

00:28:57.914 --> 00:29:01.304
So she defines this thing as, here's what
normal healthy narcissism looks like.

00:29:01.664 --> 00:29:02.384
And so I just,

00:29:02.444 --> 00:29:03.164
I don't like using it.

00:29:03.164 --> 00:29:04.514
I'm like, why can we say confidence?

00:29:04.784 --> 00:29:05.234
Well, ego.

00:29:05.234 --> 00:29:05.834
That's, I

00:29:05.834 --> 00:29:09.014
literally, I, I, I mean I own this so
much . I'd love to interview her 'cause

00:29:09.024 --> 00:29:10.854
this was, I think a game changer . Yeah.

00:29:11.184 --> 00:29:11.964
In the practice.

00:29:12.014 --> 00:29:13.034
Normal healthy narcissism.

00:29:13.034 --> 00:29:15.764
I'm gonna say everywhere the word
narcissism is, I'm gonna say ego.

00:29:15.764 --> 00:29:15.884
Gotcha.

00:29:16.394 --> 00:29:17.744
So, normal healthy ego.

00:29:17.774 --> 00:29:20.174
This is a realistic sense
of positive self regard.

00:29:20.204 --> 00:29:22.334
That's based on the person's
actual accomplishments.

00:29:22.604 --> 00:29:25.484
It's relatively stable because the
person is assimilated into their

00:29:25.484 --> 00:29:28.844
self-image, the success that came as
a result of their actual hard work.

00:29:29.384 --> 00:29:30.944
To overcome real life obstacles.

00:29:31.274 --> 00:29:35.084
So because it's based in real
achievements, normal, healthy ego is

00:29:35.084 --> 00:29:38.744
relatively impervious to the minor slights
and setbacks that we all experience as

00:29:38.744 --> 00:29:43.064
we go through life, normal ego causes
us to care about ourselves, do things

00:29:43.064 --> 00:29:46.544
that are in our real self-interest and
is associated with genuine self-respect.

00:29:46.544 --> 00:29:48.404
One can think of it as
something that's inside of us.

00:29:49.004 --> 00:29:52.474
So you can see that if I don't really
know or like what I do , there's a good

00:29:52.474 --> 00:29:56.674
chance I don't really know or like who I
am, and so then I'm going to be defensive

00:29:56.884 --> 00:30:01.984
and I'm going to not feel grounded and
confident as So if somebody's talking

00:30:01.984 --> 00:30:04.954
to you about skin stuff now, oh, I, I
would love to talk to you about that.

00:30:04.954 --> 00:30:05.104
Yeah.

00:30:05.404 --> 00:30:08.524
And it's not that you're trying to
figure out, oh, I hope I get this right,

00:30:09.184 --> 00:30:09.454
right.

00:30:09.454 --> 00:30:12.574
And that was when I did hair, I
felt that a lot where if clients

00:30:12.574 --> 00:30:17.554
would ask me a tricky question, it
was like a nerve wracking thing.

00:30:17.554 --> 00:30:19.564
And obviously I'm still new to
aesthetics and there's a lot,

00:30:19.714 --> 00:30:21.844
I don't know obviously, but.

00:30:22.774 --> 00:30:26.344
I know more than I, I would argue I
know more already about aesthetics

00:30:26.344 --> 00:30:29.374
than I do about okay hair, which is
crazy 'cause I did hair for five years.

00:30:29.464 --> 00:30:29.674
Yeah.

00:30:29.704 --> 00:30:29.944
Okay.

00:30:29.944 --> 00:30:31.894
Now listen that, see you get it.

00:30:31.899 --> 00:30:33.524
And I liked how you had the
little, you're passionate about it.

00:30:33.524 --> 00:30:34.084
I care.

00:30:34.084 --> 00:30:34.144
Yeah.

00:30:34.224 --> 00:30:37.374
, So then she says, here's the opposite
of normal healthy ego, which would

00:30:37.374 --> 00:30:39.534
be pathological defensive narcissism.

00:30:39.864 --> 00:30:41.514
So I guess if I've never
actually done this.

00:30:41.514 --> 00:30:43.884
If you threw pathological
defensive ego in there too,

00:30:43.884 --> 00:30:46.854
because your ego is this adorable.

00:30:46.944 --> 00:30:49.284
My friend Preston would say it's
like an adorable security guard.

00:30:49.594 --> 00:30:51.784
It's the dog on the porch
that's like, get outta here.

00:30:51.784 --> 00:30:52.774
Protecting your ego.

00:30:53.194 --> 00:30:55.174
So pathological defensive ego.

00:30:55.594 --> 00:30:58.234
This is a defense against
feelings of inferiority.

00:30:58.504 --> 00:31:02.134
The person dawns a mask of arrogant
superiority in an attempt to convince

00:31:02.134 --> 00:31:03.904
the world that he or she is special.

00:31:04.264 --> 00:31:07.834
But inside the person feels very insecure
about his or her actual self-worth.

00:31:08.444 --> 00:31:09.104
And there's more.

00:31:09.104 --> 00:31:10.874
But, so if you put it
that, think of it that way.

00:31:10.874 --> 00:31:13.844
I would go to these technical conferences
and I felt incredibly insecure.

00:31:13.844 --> 00:31:13.934
Mm-hmm.

00:31:14.174 --> 00:31:18.044
Because these are real computer scientists
and computer software engineers trying

00:31:18.044 --> 00:31:18.549
to clean off, like to fit in there.

00:31:18.549 --> 00:31:18.764
Yeah.

00:31:18.814 --> 00:31:21.894
Then it kind of makes sense here
too, 'cause then, , she says this

00:31:21.894 --> 00:31:25.854
facade of superiority is so thin
that it's like a helium balloon and

00:31:25.854 --> 00:31:27.354
one small pin prick will deflate it.

00:31:27.474 --> 00:31:31.344
This makes the person hypersensitive
to minor slights that someone with

00:31:31.344 --> 00:31:33.204
healthy ego would not even notice.

00:31:33.204 --> 00:31:36.264
Instead, somebody with this type
of defensive ego is easily wounded,

00:31:36.654 --> 00:31:40.464
frequently takes any form of disagreement
as serious criticism, and is likely

00:31:40.464 --> 00:31:43.344
to lash out and devalue anybody
who they think disagrees with them.

00:31:43.584 --> 00:31:46.464
Now we're gonna into the good old
narcissistic personality disorder or

00:31:46.464 --> 00:31:49.164
incredible emotional immaturity where if
you have a different opinion than mine,

00:31:49.164 --> 00:31:50.334
then you think you're right and I'm wrong.

00:31:50.334 --> 00:31:50.394
Yeah.

00:31:50.394 --> 00:31:51.564
And we're into the
black or white thinking.

00:31:52.044 --> 00:31:54.834
So she said they're constantly on
guard trying to protect their status.

00:31:55.074 --> 00:31:59.214
Pathological ego can be thought of as a
protective armor that's on the outside.

00:32:00.014 --> 00:32:01.034
So that's pretty deep.

00:32:01.834 --> 00:32:04.474
So if you really like what you do,
you find the thing that you like

00:32:04.474 --> 00:32:06.214
and you, think about it often.

00:32:06.214 --> 00:32:07.694
You, are curious about it.

00:32:07.694 --> 00:32:09.194
You're looking for things
throughout your day.

00:32:09.194 --> 00:32:09.599
You're excited about it.

00:32:09.764 --> 00:32:10.394
You're excited about it.

00:32:10.394 --> 00:32:10.454
Yeah.

00:32:10.724 --> 00:32:14.294
Then it's more likely that you are,
you're building this healthy ego because

00:32:14.294 --> 00:32:17.564
it's based off of your actual hard
work to overcome real life obstacles.

00:32:17.564 --> 00:32:17.654
Mm-hmm.

00:32:18.344 --> 00:32:19.574
And it's based in real achievement.

00:32:20.054 --> 00:32:20.264
Yeah.

00:32:20.624 --> 00:32:22.844
And so then it's like something
that's happening on the inside.

00:32:23.474 --> 00:32:26.474
And I think that will lead eventually to
concepts like differentiation, where if

00:32:26.474 --> 00:32:29.864
somebody is saying, well, I don't like the
way you did that, then I'm like, well, I,

00:32:29.864 --> 00:32:31.514
I'm good, but tell me what you don't like.

00:32:31.514 --> 00:32:33.644
'cause I do want to, I
wanna be the best I can be.

00:32:34.094 --> 00:32:35.234
So I wanna hear you.

00:32:35.774 --> 00:32:36.164
That's deep.

00:32:36.524 --> 00:32:36.734
Yeah.

00:32:37.694 --> 00:32:39.524
And I think it's so, it is a good point.

00:32:39.524 --> 00:32:42.824
'cause it's so different if your, if
your job is something that you're doing

00:32:42.824 --> 00:32:44.614
just to do 'cause you think you have to.

00:32:44.734 --> 00:32:44.944
Yep.

00:32:45.844 --> 00:32:49.834
You're not doing anything
positive for yourself or yourself.

00:32:49.834 --> 00:32:50.224
Growth.

00:32:50.314 --> 00:32:50.434
Yeah.

00:32:50.434 --> 00:32:51.064
It's okay.

00:32:51.064 --> 00:32:54.299
It's not bad . You're doing something
with your time and it's good.

00:32:54.329 --> 00:32:56.844
You might be earning a living pr providing
for yourself and that matters family.

00:32:56.844 --> 00:32:56.969
And that's

00:32:56.969 --> 00:33:00.539
important, but it's just so different,
the work that then you can also do for

00:33:00.539 --> 00:33:05.429
yourself if you are doing something
that you are genuinely passionate about.

00:33:05.479 --> 00:33:06.559
. And want to be doing

00:33:06.719 --> 00:33:07.919
, Have you ever heard somebody say that?

00:33:07.969 --> 00:33:10.969
, I don't want to make a job out of
something that I love 'cause it'll

00:33:10.969 --> 00:33:12.709
no longer be something I love.

00:33:12.769 --> 00:33:13.009
Yeah.

00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.609
But I would argue that if you do love it,
that it honestly can't get to that point.

00:33:16.609 --> 00:33:16.789
Yeah.

00:33:17.219 --> 00:33:17.399
Or there's a

00:33:17.399 --> 00:33:18.819
way to balance it, I guess that, yeah.

00:33:18.819 --> 00:33:19.552
Where it won't get like

00:33:19.552 --> 00:33:22.822
I say this thing, thinking I'm funny
at times, but I honestly would sit

00:33:22.822 --> 00:33:25.222
there and I could still remember
validating people that would say that.

00:33:25.642 --> 00:33:28.462
And all of a sudden one day I thought,
wait a minute, I love what I do.

00:33:28.792 --> 00:33:30.112
Like, wait, I don't feel that way.

00:33:30.112 --> 00:33:30.412
Yeah, yeah.

00:33:30.412 --> 00:33:31.492
No, this is, it doesn't,

00:33:31.492 --> 00:33:33.742
I mean, it is a job and sometimes
there are days where it feels

00:33:33.742 --> 00:33:34.612
more of like one than not.

00:33:34.612 --> 00:33:35.957
But I like doing it right.

00:33:36.757 --> 00:33:39.987
And maybe if people don't, then
that might be a cue to, are they

00:33:39.987 --> 00:33:41.577
not doing something that really

00:33:41.607 --> 00:33:41.847
Yeah.

00:33:41.967 --> 00:33:45.417
Comes from a place of a healthy ego
that they are really curious about it,

00:33:45.417 --> 00:33:48.247
thinking about it , and not that we're
saying you have to be obsessed with it

00:33:48.247 --> 00:33:50.707
in your downtime, but it's just, oh,
I found the thing that I really like

00:33:50.707 --> 00:33:51.967
and I enjoy and I think about, but

00:33:51.967 --> 00:33:53.407
overall you enjoy it more than you don't.

00:33:53.412 --> 00:33:53.532
Yeah.

00:33:53.692 --> 00:33:54.877
I feel like it's just the biggest thing

00:33:54.882 --> 00:33:55.212
for sure.

00:33:55.507 --> 00:33:55.777
Yeah.

00:33:55.777 --> 00:33:57.157
But anyway, circling back, yes.

00:33:57.157 --> 00:33:58.747
You did your computer thing.

00:33:58.782 --> 00:34:02.502
And then you busted your
butt to become a therapist.

00:34:02.502 --> 00:34:02.562
Yeah.

00:34:02.742 --> 00:34:07.002
And my whole point with that was seeing
that and getting to see that modeled, I do

00:34:07.002 --> 00:34:13.557
think gave me permission to then feel like
I could instigate change in my own life.

00:34:13.587 --> 00:34:15.537
Even again though that it
wasn't something that I hated.

00:34:15.687 --> 00:34:15.837
That's

00:34:15.837 --> 00:34:16.257
pretty cool.

00:34:16.347 --> 00:34:17.637
It wasn't miserable, you know?

00:34:17.697 --> 00:34:17.937
Yeah.

00:34:18.207 --> 00:34:20.877
And that it was a way to spin
that change could be a good thing.

00:34:21.017 --> 00:34:21.767
. And I think that's cool too.

00:34:21.797 --> 00:34:25.157
'cause obviously there are a lot of
ways that change sucks and I think

00:34:25.157 --> 00:34:27.137
we've briefly said that already.

00:34:27.227 --> 00:34:27.407
Yeah.

00:34:27.437 --> 00:34:30.437
But it is really hard and it, and
we'll get into more of that, but.

00:34:31.292 --> 00:34:35.372
That was a nice model of this can be
good and there are ways to make it.

00:34:35.792 --> 00:34:36.302
That's nice.

00:34:36.302 --> 00:34:36.512
Good.

00:34:36.632 --> 00:34:37.292
I did not even know.

00:34:37.302 --> 00:34:40.062
. ' I had a good run there all the way
through my twenties, getting into my

00:34:40.062 --> 00:34:44.452
early thirties financially, , career
wise, getting to do really cool things.

00:34:44.512 --> 00:34:44.632
Yeah.

00:34:44.692 --> 00:34:49.252
And then going back to school and my
early thirties graduate school and

00:34:49.252 --> 00:34:50.932
it was the proverbial night school.

00:34:51.052 --> 00:34:51.352
Right.

00:34:51.532 --> 00:34:51.952
And it's like that

00:34:51.952 --> 00:34:55.012
was probably a very intimidating
change that had a lot of Yeah.

00:34:55.012 --> 00:34:56.182
Negatives in the moment.

00:34:56.182 --> 00:34:56.242
Yeah.

00:34:56.332 --> 00:34:57.532
But obviously worked out.

00:34:57.847 --> 00:34:58.267
.  Well,

00:34:58.447 --> 00:34:59.857
.  And was good in the long run.

00:34:59.977 --> 00:35:02.457
You know what's crazy I wrote a
humor column in a newspaper for

00:35:02.457 --> 00:35:06.777
10 years, and so we just had a,
well, I didn't have the baby, but

00:35:06.777 --> 00:35:08.517
mom had a baby and I was with her.

00:35:08.637 --> 00:35:08.847
Mm-hmm.

00:35:09.147 --> 00:35:09.567
In that

00:35:09.807 --> 00:35:10.737
you were somewhat involved.

00:35:10.737 --> 00:35:10.917
Yeah.

00:35:10.917 --> 00:35:11.877
That's somewhat awkward.

00:35:12.367 --> 00:35:15.067
And I started writing a lot of humor
columns about it, and I wanted to publish

00:35:15.067 --> 00:35:18.247
a book, and I really did, and it's funny,
I think I always probably wanted to

00:35:18.247 --> 00:35:21.817
be a therapist, but I used that as an,
as a reason was I said, well, I'll go

00:35:21.817 --> 00:35:23.167
back and get my master's in counseling.

00:35:23.167 --> 00:35:25.927
I'll get some letters behind my name and
, then I'll have a reason to write a book.

00:35:25.957 --> 00:35:29.287
'cause who am I, I'm just some humor
columnist in a small town paper.

00:35:29.342 --> 00:35:29.632
Yeah.

00:35:29.857 --> 00:35:30.217
Yeah.

00:35:30.217 --> 00:35:34.132
And I was like a several months into
grad school where they talked about,

00:35:34.162 --> 00:35:37.822
oh, before you graduate you have to
take this practicum, you have to find

00:35:37.822 --> 00:35:39.382
a site and you start seeing clients.

00:35:39.442 --> 00:35:41.692
And I actually had not thought
all the way through that.

00:35:42.112 --> 00:35:43.372
And I almost stopped.

00:35:43.462 --> 00:35:44.422
You just wanted to write your book?

00:35:44.422 --> 00:35:45.017
Kind of, yeah.

00:35:45.022 --> 00:35:45.322
Yeah.

00:35:45.352 --> 00:35:48.592
But I think deep inside I wanted to
do the therapy thing and see clients.

00:35:48.597 --> 00:35:48.737
Yeah.

00:35:48.737 --> 00:35:51.232
And so then I remember almost
quitting at that point.

00:35:51.232 --> 00:35:53.512
And then I thought, oh, I've
already taken out student loans.

00:35:53.932 --> 00:35:55.377
You were too far into that point.

00:35:55.377 --> 00:35:55.387
Yeah.

00:35:55.552 --> 00:35:55.852
Yeah.

00:35:55.852 --> 00:35:59.032
And even at first it was not the funnest
thing in the world, seeing clients.

00:35:59.062 --> 00:36:00.502
'cause I didn't think I
knew what I was doing.

00:36:00.832 --> 00:36:01.102
Yeah.

00:36:01.342 --> 00:36:02.152
That's intimidating.

00:36:02.242 --> 00:36:02.512
Yeah.

00:36:02.512 --> 00:36:04.522
That's like heavy stuff that
you were being thrown into.

00:36:04.522 --> 00:36:04.582
Yeah.

00:36:05.092 --> 00:36:06.322
So look at you now.

00:36:06.502 --> 00:36:07.312
All worked out.

00:36:07.552 --> 00:36:09.952
we spend a lot of time with,
we'll, we'll stay with that change.

00:36:09.952 --> 00:36:12.052
'cause we were gonna talk
about my dad moving to Arizona.

00:36:12.362 --> 00:36:13.232
My mom passing away.

00:36:13.232 --> 00:36:15.482
Maybe we can save that for
a, a different episode.

00:36:15.792 --> 00:36:17.242
Because that's been a lot of change.

00:36:17.332 --> 00:36:17.452
Yeah.

00:36:17.482 --> 00:36:20.272
But let's get into , why
change feels so hard.

00:36:20.602 --> 00:36:22.162
So I would love for you
to just jump in here.

00:36:22.162 --> 00:36:23.932
When I throw something,
I'll give you a muse.

00:36:23.967 --> 00:36:24.257
Okay.

00:36:24.502 --> 00:36:24.892
Okay.

00:36:24.892 --> 00:36:27.522
But I, these are all things that
I feel very passionate about.

00:36:27.672 --> 00:36:27.792
Okay.

00:36:28.002 --> 00:36:28.992
Brains crave certain.

00:36:30.127 --> 00:36:34.807
Because evolution's wired us
to see uncertainty as not safe.

00:36:35.607 --> 00:36:35.847
Yeah.

00:36:35.847 --> 00:36:39.657
And I would even, I would just argue that
like unknown in general is one of the most

00:36:39.657 --> 00:36:41.787
terrifying things about human existence.

00:36:41.847 --> 00:36:42.117
Yeah.

00:36:42.207 --> 00:36:44.037
And the unknown in any capacity.

00:36:44.247 --> 00:36:46.107
Why do you think that, at least
for me, that it's, oh yeah.

00:36:46.167 --> 00:36:47.667
It's terrifying to not know.

00:36:47.817 --> 00:36:48.027
Yeah.

00:36:48.027 --> 00:36:51.117
It's just terrifying to not have
the information and to not have like

00:36:51.117 --> 00:36:53.187
a set, everything's gonna be okay.

00:36:53.987 --> 00:36:55.577
No guarantee of that, you know?

00:36:55.607 --> 00:36:56.057
Yeah.

00:36:56.117 --> 00:36:57.857
Because that does sound
almost absolutely terrifying.

00:36:57.947 --> 00:37:01.787
Which would sound crazy to then leave
something that at least, you know,

00:37:02.447 --> 00:37:04.037
to jump out into the great abyss.

00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:04.667
Right.

00:37:04.907 --> 00:37:08.027
And not have that certainty that,
hey, this is going to actually be

00:37:08.207 --> 00:37:08.777
.  Even, okay.

00:37:08.777 --> 00:37:12.677
Not even good, better, best,
like, best option, but even, okay.

00:37:12.725 --> 00:37:14.245
that's, it could be worse, literally.

00:37:14.409 --> 00:37:17.464
that's a realistic option in certain
scenarios, so that's terrifying.

00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:17.569
Yeah.

00:37:18.154 --> 00:37:18.814
Isn't that crazy?

00:37:18.904 --> 00:37:22.264
Yeah, it makes sense why our brains
were, it does a little afraid of that.

00:37:22.264 --> 00:37:26.280
Well,  we have this negativity bias and
it's because, , our ancestors, if they

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:28.470
got it wrong one time, they're dead.

00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:28.915
I mean, they're gone.

00:37:28.915 --> 00:37:31.867
They're gone for, , If one
person from your, tribe ate some

00:37:31.867 --> 00:37:35.557
berries and dropped dead, we will
never eat those berries again.

00:37:36.037 --> 00:37:39.244
Because if a guy a couple years down
the road says, maybe they're better now.

00:37:39.824 --> 00:37:40.514
He's gone.

00:37:40.877 --> 00:37:43.517
or you are gonna go hunt and you
see the tiger outta the corner

00:37:43.517 --> 00:37:44.377
of your eye and, you know what?

00:37:44.377 --> 00:37:45.007
I'm gonna risk it.

00:37:45.967 --> 00:37:46.957
I'm gonna go get that antelope.

00:37:47.317 --> 00:37:47.377
No.

00:37:47.377 --> 00:37:48.577
And maybe this guy won't get me.

00:37:48.577 --> 00:37:48.877
No.

00:37:48.877 --> 00:37:50.682
'cause if I, if he gets me
gone, well, you can't risk

00:37:50.682 --> 00:37:50.802
it.

00:37:50.857 --> 00:37:51.247
Yeah.

00:37:51.247 --> 00:37:51.397
So

00:37:51.397 --> 00:37:52.717
that's what the brain is evolved to,

00:37:53.077 --> 00:37:54.547
so it makes sense that that's
where we're coming from.

00:37:54.607 --> 00:37:56.527
.  . But the sad part of that is
that, so then your brain is

00:37:56.527 --> 00:37:58.057
really good at making up stories.

00:37:58.117 --> 00:37:58.327
Yeah.

00:37:58.672 --> 00:38:00.652
To then tell you why things will be scary.

00:38:00.652 --> 00:38:03.202
'cause it, it's saying, wait,
you, no, you can't go do that.

00:38:03.352 --> 00:38:04.312
What if this happens?

00:38:04.312 --> 00:38:05.452
What if the, what if this?

00:38:05.452 --> 00:38:05.962
What if this?

00:38:05.962 --> 00:38:06.597
And all of a sudden you're , oh my gosh.

00:38:06.597 --> 00:38:06.837
It's like

00:38:06.837 --> 00:38:11.082
we're not actually talking about
poisonous berries and tigers anymore.

00:38:11.132 --> 00:38:12.332
. really probably will be, okay,

00:38:12.392 --> 00:38:13.322
what if somebody makes fun of me?

00:38:13.382 --> 00:38:14.312
What if it doesn't go well?

00:38:14.342 --> 00:38:15.602
What if they laugh sucks?

00:38:15.632 --> 00:38:16.742
What if I forget what I'm saying.

00:38:16.772 --> 00:38:17.282
What if

00:38:17.612 --> 00:38:18.902
it's awful?

00:38:18.902 --> 00:38:19.772
It all sucks.

00:38:19.802 --> 00:38:20.382
. Realistically, yeah.

00:38:20.427 --> 00:38:21.807
But it's also not the end of the world.

00:38:21.857 --> 00:38:22.457
.  No, it's not.

00:38:22.517 --> 00:38:23.837
And it's most likely temporary.

00:38:24.107 --> 00:38:27.827
There's a phrase in the I, I guess just
in the world, I was saying the therapy

00:38:27.827 --> 00:38:32.897
world, but that your brain will choose
certainty over safety any day of the week.

00:38:32.897 --> 00:38:34.307
And that's almost terrifying.

00:38:35.057 --> 00:38:35.927
It's kind of a bummer.

00:38:36.137 --> 00:38:37.307
.  That that's just how we're programmed.

00:38:37.437 --> 00:38:39.887
. , when I work with people that are in
unhealthy relationships, now we're

00:38:39.887 --> 00:38:42.467
getting into the world of a trauma
bond where somebody will say, okay,

00:38:42.467 --> 00:38:43.847
but sometimes it is okay though.

00:38:44.337 --> 00:38:44.427
So

00:38:44.432 --> 00:38:45.112
you'll clinging to that.

00:38:45.112 --> 00:38:45.262
So

00:38:45.262 --> 00:38:48.022
cling to that, and you'll
ignore the negative part.

00:38:48.022 --> 00:38:50.122
And then you do that long
enough and then your brain just

00:38:50.122 --> 00:38:51.652
says, well, this is what we do.

00:38:52.282 --> 00:38:56.302
And , this must be okay because
this is the familiar, because

00:38:56.302 --> 00:38:57.982
if I leave, then what if?

00:38:57.982 --> 00:38:59.902
What if I never find somebody
who, what if he comes after me?

00:38:59.902 --> 00:39:00.502
What if, you know

00:39:00.532 --> 00:39:01.462
what if it gets worse?

00:39:01.522 --> 00:39:02.032
Yeah.

00:39:02.032 --> 00:39:02.042
Yeah.

00:39:02.242 --> 00:39:03.292
That's sad kind.

00:39:03.292 --> 00:39:04.612
It really is.

00:39:04.612 --> 00:39:04.642
It really is.

00:39:04.672 --> 00:39:05.602
We shouldn't do that.

00:39:05.632 --> 00:39:05.962
No.

00:39:06.592 --> 00:39:09.532
So I think if I'm hearing you correctly,
you're saying how about knock it off?

00:39:09.982 --> 00:39:10.342
Yeah.

00:39:10.342 --> 00:39:11.802
Does that work in the factory world a lot.

00:39:11.802 --> 00:39:12.137
World times.

00:39:12.202 --> 00:39:12.412
Yeah.

00:39:12.412 --> 00:39:15.502
I forget about it till that's mini
sessions in No, I usually forget

00:39:15.502 --> 00:39:17.572
and I'm just like, have you thought
about not doing that or Oh my gosh.

00:39:17.692 --> 00:39:19.222
. , So we got that Brains crave certainty.

00:39:19.222 --> 00:39:23.182
Then we've got growth requires discomfort,
but we don't like being un uncomfortable.

00:39:23.272 --> 00:39:24.172
I think we kind of covered that one.

00:39:24.862 --> 00:39:25.492
Oh, do you?

00:39:25.522 --> 00:39:25.792
Okay.

00:39:25.792 --> 00:39:27.172
Growth requires discomfort.

00:39:27.382 --> 00:39:28.012
You got any Yeah.

00:39:28.012 --> 00:39:28.432
Buts.

00:39:29.232 --> 00:39:31.032
I don't think that's a
certain, a hundred percent.

00:39:31.032 --> 00:39:31.092
Yeah.

00:39:31.092 --> 00:39:33.912
It always has to be uncomfortable,
but I, I do think more often than

00:39:33.912 --> 00:39:36.282
not, when you are uncomfortable,
there is some growth happening.

00:39:36.342 --> 00:39:37.452
. I feel like that's fair to say.

00:39:37.512 --> 00:39:37.782
Yeah.

00:39:37.902 --> 00:39:42.052
But I think you can also be growing and
just , there's simple ways to, like,

00:39:42.052 --> 00:39:43.192
I'm trying to think of just I, me too.

00:39:43.192 --> 00:39:46.372
Some little things of . A little
bit of mindfulness and going on

00:39:46.372 --> 00:39:48.472
walks and like those, the little
things we've talked about in the

00:39:48.472 --> 00:39:50.092
past where it's like you are growing

00:39:50.302 --> 00:39:50.572
Yeah.

00:39:50.932 --> 00:39:51.622
Reading books.

00:39:51.712 --> 00:39:52.162
You know what I mean?

00:39:52.162 --> 00:39:52.372
Like

00:39:52.372 --> 00:39:53.602
it's not that uncomfortable.

00:39:53.662 --> 00:39:54.082
No.

00:39:54.202 --> 00:39:54.322
Yeah.

00:39:54.322 --> 00:39:55.012
It might not even be, for the most part,

00:39:55.012 --> 00:39:56.332
it's maybe not uncomfortable at all.

00:39:56.332 --> 00:39:59.092
It's maybe even kind of pleasant
and technically you're growing.

00:39:59.272 --> 00:39:59.362
Yeah.

00:39:59.362 --> 00:40:02.842
But I do think the biggest, well, I don't
know if I'd argue the biggest, because

00:40:02.842 --> 00:40:07.632
the little things add up and matter
a lot, but the really uncomfortable

00:40:08.432 --> 00:40:10.892
situations tend to have a lot of growth

00:40:11.012 --> 00:40:11.372
they do

00:40:11.642 --> 00:40:12.182
with them

00:40:12.312 --> 00:40:15.672
And no one, and that's, so that's the
part I think is being a therapist,

00:40:15.672 --> 00:40:19.032
that people don't come in when
things are like, they're okay.

00:40:19.392 --> 00:40:20.322
I wish they would do more.

00:40:20.322 --> 00:40:23.502
But even if they do come in when
things are just okay, a lot of times

00:40:23.622 --> 00:40:26.052
people think, okay, well I don't
even know if this is really helping.

00:40:26.922 --> 00:40:27.732
And I know

00:40:27.792 --> 00:40:28.872
I'm very bad at this.

00:40:29.022 --> 00:40:31.802
Yeah, we've talked about this,
but, 'cause I love the concept

00:40:31.802 --> 00:40:33.152
of mindfulness and meditation.

00:40:33.152 --> 00:40:34.322
I think it's the coolest thing.

00:40:34.322 --> 00:40:36.692
I think it's great, but if
I'm okay, I'm not doing it.

00:40:36.812 --> 00:40:37.202
Yeah.

00:40:37.382 --> 00:40:38.972
And I'm very guilty of that.

00:40:39.032 --> 00:40:40.502
And then I get into.

00:40:41.042 --> 00:40:42.752
A time of high anxiety.

00:40:42.752 --> 00:40:42.842
Yeah.

00:40:42.932 --> 00:40:43.802
And things are rough.

00:40:44.132 --> 00:40:45.782
And then I'm like,
okay, I need to do this.

00:40:45.962 --> 00:40:48.152
And then it's only gonna help
so much in that moment because

00:40:48.152 --> 00:40:49.382
I haven't, I don't have the base

00:40:49.502 --> 00:40:49.742
Yep.

00:40:50.077 --> 00:40:50.367
Yeah.

00:40:50.387 --> 00:40:51.367
Of it going, you know?

00:40:51.372 --> 00:40:51.452
Yeah.

00:40:51.567 --> 00:40:52.532
Oh, but boy do I,

00:40:52.832 --> 00:40:53.042
yeah.

00:40:53.277 --> 00:40:56.732
Because I, I mean, I've probably gotten
two or three texts this weekend from

00:40:56.732 --> 00:41:00.002
people that I need an emergency session,
and it's people that, oh, things are bad.

00:41:00.002 --> 00:41:01.622
So now they, it's almost like now it's

00:41:01.622 --> 00:41:02.912
time to like, okay, now I need the help.

00:41:02.912 --> 00:41:03.842
Now I need to do all these things.

00:41:03.842 --> 00:41:05.312
And it's like, but you
could be doing them before.

00:41:05.372 --> 00:41:05.432
Yeah.

00:41:05.432 --> 00:41:08.492
I'm very guilty of not doing those things
well, and quite frankly, until it's,

00:41:08.702 --> 00:41:09.062
yeah.

00:41:09.992 --> 00:41:12.932
Not too late, but until it's, I'm in
the moment and feeling the things.

00:41:12.937 --> 00:41:13.087
Yeah.

00:41:13.202 --> 00:41:15.452
And when people come in, in
the moment, they often say,

00:41:15.542 --> 00:41:16.682
I don't even know what to do.

00:41:16.682 --> 00:41:17.492
And then except just

00:41:17.492 --> 00:41:17.972
fix it.

00:41:18.032 --> 00:41:18.272
Yeah.

00:41:18.272 --> 00:41:18.962
And unfortunately,

00:41:19.082 --> 00:41:21.632
that's where you can start saying
things and you get the Yeah.

00:41:21.632 --> 00:41:22.082
But yeah.

00:41:22.082 --> 00:41:25.172
But, so in that situation, one of
the only things you can do as a

00:41:25.172 --> 00:41:27.967
therapist at times is just, you
just want to be there and, and.

00:41:28.322 --> 00:41:29.162
Say, tell me more.

00:41:29.222 --> 00:41:29.282
Yeah.

00:41:29.282 --> 00:41:29.852
Help me understand.

00:41:29.912 --> 00:41:33.062
And that's, I think sometimes
why therapy will get a bad rap.

00:41:33.092 --> 00:41:35.252
'cause they're saying, well, they
don't even do anything for you.

00:41:35.462 --> 00:41:37.622
And it's like, well, when you come
in once in a blue moon mm-hmm.

00:41:37.862 --> 00:41:41.972
With just a, like a tragic thing
or you are just really angry and

00:41:41.972 --> 00:41:44.952
frustrated, then can you I don't, there's

00:41:45.192 --> 00:41:47.772
no immediate cure that it's
like, embrace that realistically.

00:41:47.982 --> 00:41:48.012
Okay.

00:41:48.012 --> 00:41:48.492
Because a lot

00:41:48.492 --> 00:41:50.127
of times you'll even say,
Hey how can I help you?

00:41:50.127 --> 00:41:50.447
Mm-hmm.

00:41:50.622 --> 00:41:52.087
What would that look like
to help you right now?

00:41:52.087 --> 00:41:52.327
Mm-hmm.

00:41:52.412 --> 00:41:55.572
And usually the number one
answer's like, I don't know, just,

00:41:55.992 --> 00:41:57.072
I don't know, make it go away.

00:41:57.072 --> 00:41:57.672
Tell me what to do.

00:41:57.672 --> 00:41:59.242
It's like, okay, let's,
let's get that have to be

00:41:59.242 --> 00:42:00.052
thrown and knock it off.

00:42:00.177 --> 00:42:00.257
Yeah.

00:42:00.262 --> 00:42:00.592
Yeah.

00:42:00.592 --> 00:42:00.892
Yeah.

00:42:00.922 --> 00:42:01.162
Yeah.

00:42:01.162 --> 00:42:01.942
Thought about knocking it off.

00:42:02.372 --> 00:42:02.832
So that's, yeah.

00:42:02.832 --> 00:42:03.107
That's tough.

00:42:03.197 --> 00:42:05.907
I was talking to somebody recently and,
and I thought they made such a good point

00:42:05.907 --> 00:42:08.857
and I had such empathy for them, but
they were saying that they didn't know

00:42:08.857 --> 00:42:10.807
what to do to handle a situation mm-hmm.

00:42:11.047 --> 00:42:12.307
With like a, a family member.

00:42:12.607 --> 00:42:15.457
And so then they just said, but I just,
I feel like if I'm not worrying about

00:42:15.457 --> 00:42:17.107
it, then I'm not doing anything about it.

00:42:17.107 --> 00:42:18.597
What do you think about that?

00:42:18.687 --> 00:42:19.287
That's intense.

00:42:19.377 --> 00:42:19.707
Yeah.

00:42:20.507 --> 00:42:21.107
I get it though.

00:42:21.137 --> 00:42:24.367
'cause it's like we need to
feel like we're doing something.

00:42:24.367 --> 00:42:24.427
Yeah.

00:42:25.237 --> 00:42:25.987
Productive.

00:42:26.787 --> 00:42:30.527
And sometimes that's not, sometimes
it feels like the only thing you

00:42:30.527 --> 00:42:32.357
can do is worry or think about it.

00:42:32.417 --> 00:42:32.627
Yeah.

00:42:32.687 --> 00:42:33.857
In certain situations, you know?

00:42:34.037 --> 00:42:34.307
Yeah.

00:42:34.617 --> 00:42:37.257
And this is where I think it's
interesting because you've got

00:42:37.257 --> 00:42:39.687
the cognitive behavioral therapy
approach, which is telling somebody,

00:42:39.717 --> 00:42:42.767
well, maybe they're doing this
or maybe this is what's going on.

00:42:42.797 --> 00:42:42.887
Mm-hmm.

00:42:43.127 --> 00:42:45.827
But that's where you can see, or at least
my experience has been the person that

00:42:45.827 --> 00:42:47.687
is in that position and they're worrying.

00:42:48.137 --> 00:42:49.697
They're not gonna buy,
they're not buying that.

00:42:49.997 --> 00:42:51.437
They're saying I, but how do you know?

00:42:51.587 --> 00:42:53.177
Oh, we don't fact to that.

00:42:53.237 --> 00:42:54.227
There's a lack of certainty.

00:42:54.437 --> 00:42:54.737
Yeah.

00:42:55.337 --> 00:42:59.477
So in the act world, it really is like,
man, that would be hard if I, if you are.

00:42:59.477 --> 00:42:59.567
It's

00:42:59.567 --> 00:42:59.837
hard.

00:42:59.837 --> 00:43:02.087
But worrying doesn't help.

00:43:02.507 --> 00:43:03.227
Well, and there's a, we've

00:43:03.227 --> 00:43:06.047
also, we've talked a lot
about this too, though.

00:43:06.677 --> 00:43:12.157
This is a tangent really, but I,
because I hate when people tell me like.

00:43:12.997 --> 00:43:13.867
Well, just don't worry about it.

00:43:13.872 --> 00:43:13.902
Yeah.

00:43:13.907 --> 00:43:15.817
And don't whatever, because
it's like the realistic human

00:43:15.817 --> 00:43:18.397
experience is to feel things.

00:43:18.452 --> 00:43:19.922
And usually feel things big.

00:43:20.372 --> 00:43:23.792
And it's part of that then comes
with the natural thought process.

00:43:24.692 --> 00:43:27.122
And so I think to some extent
you're allowed to think about it.

00:43:27.242 --> 00:43:27.752
Oh, absolutely.

00:43:27.782 --> 00:43:33.772
But then it's do you just don't cross over
to the full blown panic and worries of it.

00:43:33.772 --> 00:43:33.782
Yeah.

00:43:33.782 --> 00:43:34.572
Or the ruminating side.

00:43:34.572 --> 00:43:37.042
But it's so normal to think
about it and process it.

00:43:37.042 --> 00:43:38.682
It would be weird to not exactly.

00:43:38.892 --> 00:43:40.152
But then it's like, what
do you do with that?

00:43:40.157 --> 00:43:40.267
But

00:43:40.267 --> 00:43:42.372
there's a way to not sit
there with it forever.

00:43:42.377 --> 00:43:42.667
Yeah.

00:43:42.912 --> 00:43:43.182
Yeah.

00:43:43.332 --> 00:43:44.112
But it's hard though.

00:43:44.112 --> 00:43:46.062
'cause that goes back to what
you were saying about the,

00:43:46.542 --> 00:43:48.972
when the intent situation hits.

00:43:49.092 --> 00:43:49.182
Mm-hmm.

00:43:49.452 --> 00:43:51.762
Now's the time where you need
to go get the time machine.

00:43:51.792 --> 00:43:51.852
Yeah.

00:43:51.912 --> 00:43:52.902
Go back a couple years Yeah.

00:43:52.902 --> 00:43:53.952
And start practicing, start

00:43:53.952 --> 00:43:56.352
laying down that foundation
of the tools and everything.

00:43:56.352 --> 00:43:56.652
Yeah.

00:43:57.072 --> 00:43:57.462
Yeah.

00:43:57.552 --> 00:44:00.587
Because at that point, even
if you say to somebody, well,

00:44:00.707 --> 00:44:02.267
how can I help you right now?

00:44:02.267 --> 00:44:02.357
Mm-hmm.

00:44:02.687 --> 00:44:05.747
A lot of times that would be
the, I don't know, or we'll

00:44:05.897 --> 00:44:08.177
fix it or tell me I'm right or.

00:44:08.672 --> 00:44:12.632
And then you can even see in the couples
situation when I'm doing couples therapy,

00:44:12.662 --> 00:44:16.892
sometimes the, if the person's just
trying to be supportive, they, the other

00:44:16.892 --> 00:44:20.132
person that that is worrying is gonna
say, okay, I can tell you don't care.

00:44:20.312 --> 00:44:22.352
And it's almost like, Hey, I'm
gonna diffuse that over onto you

00:44:22.352 --> 00:44:23.492
and I'm gonna be mad at you now.

00:44:24.062 --> 00:44:26.812
'cause I don't know what to do
with my anxiety, my discomfort.

00:44:26.962 --> 00:44:27.352
Mm-hmm.

00:44:27.652 --> 00:44:30.962
And that's really hard because it,
that is just like, I don't know

00:44:30.962 --> 00:44:32.342
what to do with these feelings.

00:44:32.432 --> 00:44:32.672
Yeah.

00:44:33.122 --> 00:44:34.262
So I have to put them somewhere.

00:44:34.262 --> 00:44:34.382
Yeah.

00:44:34.442 --> 00:44:34.562
So

00:44:34.562 --> 00:44:36.302
I either need to go fix, try to fix it.

00:44:36.307 --> 00:44:36.527
Mm-hmm.

00:44:36.612 --> 00:44:39.882
I need to tell, I was talking to somebody
this last week about interventions

00:44:40.242 --> 00:44:43.572
and I was saying that man, and the, at
least my experience has been that an

00:44:43.572 --> 00:44:47.487
intervention is, is often more about
the people, the group, the group,

00:44:47.487 --> 00:44:51.657
the parents, the, and they're like, I
am so upset and I'm so worried about

00:44:51.657 --> 00:44:54.762
this person that they need to, that
I need to take action of some sort.

00:44:54.832 --> 00:44:55.122
Yeah.

00:44:55.122 --> 00:44:55.887
And they need to know.

00:44:55.917 --> 00:44:57.477
So I'm gonna get all these people around.

00:44:57.477 --> 00:44:59.667
We're gonna write letters, we're
going sit there and we're gonna say,

00:45:00.027 --> 00:45:01.047
do you know how hard this is for me?

00:45:01.932 --> 00:45:03.372
And so you need to,

00:45:03.402 --> 00:45:05.952
you need to ease my discomfort
now and change something.

00:45:06.042 --> 00:45:07.242
And it's like, that's not really fair.

00:45:07.332 --> 00:45:07.872
It's hard.

00:45:07.872 --> 00:45:10.272
It's hard because, you know, every
now and again that might work.

00:45:10.272 --> 00:45:12.642
And I remember watching the show
intervention when I was a young therapist

00:45:12.652 --> 00:45:15.682
and I remember at the time even thinking,
oh man, I think I might want to do these.

00:45:15.682 --> 00:45:17.962
But then you see they don't often work.

00:45:18.052 --> 00:45:18.382
Right.

00:45:18.442 --> 00:45:20.572
I feel like they backfire
more often than not.

00:45:20.662 --> 00:45:21.352
Well, 'cause think about that.

00:45:21.352 --> 00:45:24.292
If the person has said, Hey,
um, I don't want your help.

00:45:24.382 --> 00:45:24.652
Yeah.

00:45:24.772 --> 00:45:27.322
And that's that fine line though, because
sometimes if the person's emotional

00:45:27.322 --> 00:45:31.522
baseline is so low, they might not be in
a position to even know what they need.

00:45:31.552 --> 00:45:31.792
Right.

00:45:31.882 --> 00:45:33.502
So then they're doing
what I just talked about.

00:45:33.512 --> 00:45:35.192
They're projecting it over onto you.

00:45:35.197 --> 00:45:35.297
Mm-hmm.

00:45:35.642 --> 00:45:36.722
And saying, well, it's your fault.

00:45:36.727 --> 00:45:39.787
And I might be saying, is
it like, I didn't even know.

00:45:39.787 --> 00:45:39.847
Yeah.

00:45:39.847 --> 00:45:40.627
I'm so sorry.

00:45:41.437 --> 00:45:43.477
You know, and they're saying,
well, apologize for it.

00:45:43.837 --> 00:45:46.297
And I mean, that's, that's rough.

00:45:46.957 --> 00:45:49.237
I wrote down this note that
'cause I, I read somewhere and

00:45:49.237 --> 00:45:50.257
I couldn't find where I read it.

00:45:50.257 --> 00:45:51.217
But not worrying.

00:45:51.217 --> 00:45:51.367
Okay.

00:45:51.367 --> 00:45:51.817
Not worrying.

00:45:52.147 --> 00:45:56.867
Feels like not trying , so worry , is
a, an illusion of control and what we're

00:45:56.867 --> 00:46:01.157
saying, soothing discomfort, even if it
doesn't move us forward because we want

00:46:01.157 --> 00:46:03.347
to feel like we are doing something.

00:46:03.352 --> 00:46:03.692
Mm-hmm.

00:46:03.772 --> 00:46:07.217
Because if not, then it will
feel as if we have no control.

00:46:07.787 --> 00:46:08.327
That's interesting.

00:46:08.327 --> 00:46:09.557
I've never thought of it as a,

00:46:09.707 --> 00:46:10.907
an illusion of control taking,

00:46:10.907 --> 00:46:12.317
power or control type of thing.

00:46:12.317 --> 00:46:14.237
But that is interesting
'cause it makes sense.

00:46:14.357 --> 00:46:15.117
It's like we gotta do something.

00:46:15.117 --> 00:46:16.577
It's kind of tricking
yourself into thinking.

00:46:17.387 --> 00:46:20.507
.  You're putting energy towards the
situation and doing something positive,

00:46:20.507 --> 00:46:22.007
but it's like, it's just, it's not.

00:46:22.187 --> 00:46:22.607
Yeah.

00:46:22.717 --> 00:46:24.697
And then I think maybe we've
talked about this before.

00:46:24.697 --> 00:46:26.827
I know I've talked about it
with your mom at times, but,

00:46:27.637 --> 00:46:29.167
is a little bit of worrying.

00:46:29.287 --> 00:46:32.167
'cause you can't just not think about
something and you need to think about

00:46:32.167 --> 00:46:33.667
things in order to then make a decision.

00:46:33.667 --> 00:46:33.757
Well,

00:46:33.757 --> 00:46:34.627
that's what my argument was.

00:46:34.627 --> 00:46:37.507
I think there where it's like you
do, you can't just not, you can't,

00:46:37.807 --> 00:46:40.717
every time something negative happens,
you can't just not think about it.

00:46:40.777 --> 00:46:40.987
Yeah.

00:46:40.987 --> 00:46:45.037
And shove it down, because then
that's also just as negative

00:46:45.037 --> 00:46:46.567
as if you were full-blown Yeah.

00:46:46.747 --> 00:46:47.477
Worrying, you know?

00:46:47.477 --> 00:46:47.857
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:47.917 --> 00:46:49.207
So there's some balance there.

00:46:49.267 --> 00:46:49.537
Yeah.

00:46:49.717 --> 00:46:51.937
Because that's more of a
you, Mr. Therapist guy thing.

00:46:52.422 --> 00:46:52.897
Well, well, I think

00:46:52.897 --> 00:46:57.337
that comes with a, it's, I have to
do something, but then, oh, yeah.

00:46:57.337 --> 00:46:58.117
No, I'm glad you said it.

00:46:58.237 --> 00:47:01.627
So you do something, but then you have
to accept, and sometimes I want to make

00:47:01.627 --> 00:47:04.747
up a different word than consequence,
because I'm gonna do something, but

00:47:04.747 --> 00:47:07.867
then I have to accept the fact that
then there could be consequences to it.

00:47:08.107 --> 00:47:11.017
So let's say somebody has
said, don't contact me.

00:47:11.317 --> 00:47:14.647
And then at some point you're like,
you're ruminating, you're worrying you're

00:47:14.647 --> 00:47:18.037
overthinking to the point where then it's
like, okay, I can't not do something.

00:47:18.042 --> 00:47:18.102
Mm-hmm.

00:47:18.457 --> 00:47:22.747
Then there's an acceptance though
that then that may come with a con.

00:47:23.782 --> 00:47:27.262
It might not go well, or it might go well
because, and that's the hard part because

00:47:27.442 --> 00:47:28.727
we're back to, I want, we're back to that.

00:47:28.727 --> 00:47:29.327
I want certain we're to

00:47:29.327 --> 00:47:29.407
that.

00:47:29.407 --> 00:47:29.567
Yeah.

00:47:29.567 --> 00:47:31.402
Back to that unknown could go either way.

00:47:31.402 --> 00:47:31.492
And

00:47:31.492 --> 00:47:31.972
then look at that.

00:47:31.972 --> 00:47:32.212
Right.

00:47:32.212 --> 00:47:32.692
And then look at that.

00:47:32.692 --> 00:47:33.202
So now I'm, I'm comfy.

00:47:33.562 --> 00:47:33.742
Yeah.

00:47:33.742 --> 00:47:35.212
So I'm gonna go ask somebody
else, what would you do?

00:47:35.392 --> 00:47:36.022
Mm-hmm.

00:47:36.023 --> 00:47:38.362
And then it's almost like, oh, you
would, okay, I think I'm gonna do it.

00:47:38.752 --> 00:47:41.932
So then it's well, these other people
said that they would do it, even though

00:47:42.052 --> 00:47:43.702
nobody knows what it feels like to be you.

00:47:43.707 --> 00:47:43.777
Right.

00:47:43.837 --> 00:47:44.782
In that situation, you can't

00:47:44.782 --> 00:47:45.472
really take that.

00:47:47.062 --> 00:47:47.992
It gets complicated.

00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.429
so that worry is this illusion of control.

00:47:51.729 --> 00:47:52.149
That's deep.

00:47:52.299 --> 00:47:52.869
It is deep.

00:47:53.179 --> 00:47:54.979
. So where do we leave off

00:47:55.085 --> 00:47:56.255
Back to change, huh?

00:47:56.375 --> 00:47:56.615
Yep.

00:47:56.615 --> 00:47:56.825
Yep.

00:47:56.975 --> 00:47:59.345
So we are at, okay.

00:47:59.435 --> 00:48:00.455
And how long has this gone?

00:48:01.055 --> 00:48:01.745
About an hour.

00:48:01.835 --> 00:48:02.315
Oh, okay.

00:48:02.415 --> 00:48:02.625
. Yeah.

00:48:02.655 --> 00:48:04.365
Let's wrap this up with
what actually helps.

00:48:04.365 --> 00:48:04.635
Okay.

00:48:05.115 --> 00:48:05.295
All right.

00:48:05.295 --> 00:48:06.615
Mackey, it's time to bring it home.

00:48:07.425 --> 00:48:08.215
Let's do it.

00:48:08.315 --> 00:48:10.265
.  What actually helps during change?

00:48:10.895 --> 00:48:14.045
We talked about, and this is okay, this
will be good 'cause this is the stuff

00:48:14.045 --> 00:48:17.530
where people will say, I know I'm supposed
to just feel the feelings and mm-hmm.

00:48:17.615 --> 00:48:18.755
And sit with the discomfort.

00:48:18.755 --> 00:48:19.325
But now what?

00:48:19.325 --> 00:48:22.895
And I a hundred percent agree 'cause
it's, I have sat with feeling,

00:48:22.895 --> 00:48:23.675
what do you really do with that?

00:48:23.680 --> 00:48:24.335
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:24.340 --> 00:48:24.490
It's hard.

00:48:24.675 --> 00:48:25.095
It is.

00:48:25.095 --> 00:48:28.785
I think there's a lot of power in
not rushing to make a decision on

00:48:28.785 --> 00:48:31.365
anything because that really is
just, I want to get rid of this

00:48:31.365 --> 00:48:34.155
discomfort now and I'm gonna hope for
some certainty, so let's just do it.

00:48:34.955 --> 00:48:39.845
Which sometimes I do think is a
strength because somebody will say,

00:48:39.875 --> 00:48:41.225
okay, can you do this thing for me?

00:48:41.225 --> 00:48:42.815
And if I don't do the thing,
I know I'm not gonna do it.

00:48:43.235 --> 00:48:44.315
It's the old A DHD thing.

00:48:44.315 --> 00:48:47.195
Well, there's only two timeframes now
or later, so I don't do it right now.

00:48:47.315 --> 00:48:49.145
I'll do it later and later
isn't gonna happen until it

00:48:49.265 --> 00:48:50.255
all of a sudden becomes now.

00:48:50.945 --> 00:48:53.465
So there have been times where I
can't even think of a good one, but

00:48:53.465 --> 00:48:56.255
where mom might've said, Hey, can
you go ahead and order this thing?

00:48:56.315 --> 00:48:58.355
And I'm like, on it, I'll
order it and then maybe five

00:48:58.385 --> 00:48:59.855
minutes later, Hey Jie, do that.

00:49:00.200 --> 00:49:01.490
And I'll say I did.

00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:04.230
So there could come a consequence with
that, but there's also been times where

00:49:04.230 --> 00:49:05.700
I'm like, I'll do it and I forget.

00:49:05.850 --> 00:49:07.390
And then Hey, did you ever do that thing?

00:49:07.570 --> 00:49:07.720
No.

00:49:07.720 --> 00:49:08.170
Let me do it.

00:49:08.230 --> 00:49:13.220
And maybe that thing is no longer
available so consequences can happen.

00:49:13.220 --> 00:49:13.280
Yeah.

00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:16.620
But I think it's nice to build
in a pause before one reacts.

00:49:17.310 --> 00:49:17.580
Yeah.

00:49:18.380 --> 00:49:22.490
And I, I think that's a nice way to
put it, because it's hard, like if

00:49:22.490 --> 00:49:25.640
somebody does say, just like sit with
the discomfort when you're actually

00:49:25.640 --> 00:49:29.600
in the position to be sitting with
the discomfort, it feels like forever.

00:49:29.660 --> 00:49:29.840
Yeah.

00:49:29.870 --> 00:49:32.960
Even 30 seconds of feeling
uncomfortable feels like forever.

00:49:33.020 --> 00:49:33.260
Yeah.

00:49:33.260 --> 00:49:34.430
And so it's like, that's really hard.

00:49:34.430 --> 00:49:37.930
But to phrase it that way
and I don't know, add in,

00:49:37.930 --> 00:49:39.430
like it's, the pause is okay.

00:49:39.435 --> 00:49:39.575
Yeah.

00:49:39.575 --> 00:49:42.820
And it's okay to like not have
all the answers, even though

00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:43.870
it doesn't feel like it.

00:49:43.875 --> 00:49:44.015
No.

00:49:44.015 --> 00:49:47.890
And so it's like in those moments
of change, it really is okay that

00:49:47.890 --> 00:49:49.600
things are different and changing.

00:49:50.020 --> 00:49:53.290
And that doesn't mean everything's bad
and awful and going to be like that.

00:49:53.295 --> 00:49:53.305
Yeah.

00:49:53.995 --> 00:49:54.595
Forever.

00:49:54.655 --> 00:49:54.925
Yeah.

00:49:55.165 --> 00:50:00.465
And it, it will eventually feel more
normal or certain at some point.

00:50:00.465 --> 00:50:03.335
It's that dumb thing where then I have to
tell myself this all the time, but it's

00:50:03.385 --> 00:50:05.875
five years from now this will not matter.

00:50:06.025 --> 00:50:06.115
Yeah.

00:50:06.115 --> 00:50:08.725
I probably won't even remember
remember any part of this.

00:50:09.525 --> 00:50:09.945
That's a good point.

00:50:09.945 --> 00:50:13.665
It's just getting through and usually it
can even be more of a six months from now.

00:50:13.665 --> 00:50:13.875
Yeah.

00:50:14.535 --> 00:50:15.465
A month from now.

00:50:15.525 --> 00:50:17.565
Like this thing that's going on Yeah.

00:50:17.685 --> 00:50:21.585
Will not matter or will not
be, will not feel so big.

00:50:21.775 --> 00:50:25.445
And that's, and I want to, I only know
what it feels like to be me, honestly.

00:50:25.745 --> 00:50:25.865
Mm-hmm.

00:50:26.105 --> 00:50:29.075
So I think that's where I often go to the,
well as a therapist, but maybe it's just

00:50:29.075 --> 00:50:32.435
as a human that has been something that,
I don't know if it comes with maturity

00:50:32.435 --> 00:50:34.145
or sitting with enough people long enough

00:50:34.205 --> 00:50:34.295
mm-hmm.

00:50:34.595 --> 00:50:39.125
Where sometimes that building and
that pause things will, I wanna say

00:50:39.395 --> 00:50:41.225
not will take care of themselves or,

00:50:41.345 --> 00:50:43.355
but like naturally fall
into place a little bit.

00:50:43.355 --> 00:50:43.625
Yeah.

00:50:43.625 --> 00:50:44.825
And then it is kind of that thing where.

00:50:45.215 --> 00:50:48.455
All of a sudden, a couple weeks have
gone by and you can kind of sit back

00:50:48.455 --> 00:50:50.435
and go, I'm actually maybe Okay.

00:50:50.555 --> 00:50:50.855
Yeah.

00:50:51.005 --> 00:50:51.995
And maybe not great.

00:50:52.115 --> 00:50:52.175
Yeah.

00:50:52.180 --> 00:50:55.755
And maybe not yeah, maybe you liked
the position you were in a few weeks

00:50:55.755 --> 00:50:57.225
before, but you're kind of okay.

00:50:57.315 --> 00:50:57.435
Yeah.

00:50:57.435 --> 00:50:59.805
And then it's like, maybe I'll
continue to kind of be okay.

00:50:59.955 --> 00:51:00.195
Yeah.

00:51:00.225 --> 00:51:02.745
Until all of a sudden you're back
in a spot where you feel good again.

00:51:02.835 --> 00:51:02.895
Yeah.

00:51:02.895 --> 00:51:06.885
And things are actually
feeling good, genuinely.

00:51:06.885 --> 00:51:07.155
Yeah.

00:51:07.245 --> 00:51:09.195
And I think I, and I think
people often would think then,

00:51:09.195 --> 00:51:10.425
but that means I gave up.

00:51:10.425 --> 00:51:12.355
Or I'm you know, I'm not doing something.

00:51:12.625 --> 00:51:15.745
But I think it's, part of that
is if everything ultimately is

00:51:15.745 --> 00:51:18.295
a me thing, then what am I gonna
learn through this process?

00:51:18.475 --> 00:51:18.565
Mm-hmm.

00:51:18.805 --> 00:51:19.825
Am I gonna learn patience?

00:51:19.825 --> 00:51:20.785
Am I gonna learn mindfulness?

00:51:20.785 --> 00:51:24.205
Am I gonna learn to make more room
for all of my feelings and emotions?

00:51:24.205 --> 00:51:26.875
I can be okay, but I, but not Okay.

00:51:26.875 --> 00:51:27.925
Is right here waiting.

00:51:27.985 --> 00:51:28.255
Right.

00:51:28.435 --> 00:51:30.805
And it's okay to just kind of
let that play out in a sense.

00:51:30.835 --> 00:51:31.225
Yeah.

00:51:31.615 --> 00:51:33.030
Even though it's un uncomfy It

00:51:33.035 --> 00:51:33.295
is.

00:51:33.445 --> 00:51:35.455
And it feels wrong to just like you.

00:51:35.455 --> 00:51:35.635
Yeah.

00:51:35.635 --> 00:51:38.125
Where it's not even giving up, but it
feels wrong to just kind of be like.

00:51:38.925 --> 00:51:41.205
I'm not gonna think about this
for every second of every day and

00:51:41.205 --> 00:51:43.215
I'm not gonna be upset about it
for every second of every day.

00:51:43.215 --> 00:51:43.275
Yeah.

00:51:43.305 --> 00:51:48.905
But it's like that is what's almost
allowing the change to do its thing,

00:51:48.905 --> 00:51:50.315
which then is allowing the growth.

00:51:50.405 --> 00:51:50.675
Yeah.

00:51:50.945 --> 00:51:52.295
To also do its thing.

00:51:52.355 --> 00:51:55.115
I remember working with this person that
had had chronic pain for a long time.

00:51:55.115 --> 00:51:55.205
Mm-hmm.

00:51:55.865 --> 00:51:57.755
And if you even just said,
Hey, how are you doing today?

00:51:57.755 --> 00:52:00.245
And if they, and I would make jokes
in my head where it's almost like

00:52:00.245 --> 00:52:03.395
if they slipped up and said, you
know, I'm doing okay, then they would

00:52:03.785 --> 00:52:05.405
immediately cover, come back and say,

00:52:05.765 --> 00:52:06.275
but actually, I mean,

00:52:06.315 --> 00:52:08.835
but I mean, there's still a whole
lot going on that's not okay.

00:52:08.985 --> 00:52:09.435
I get that.

00:52:09.435 --> 00:52:11.865
I feel like I've, I have to
catch myself with that sometimes

00:52:11.865 --> 00:52:13.395
with my Hashimoto stuff.

00:52:13.395 --> 00:52:16.485
Uh, where it's like my initial response
be like, I'm actually okay right now.

00:52:16.485 --> 00:52:16.545
Yeah.

00:52:16.605 --> 00:52:20.115
And then I notice myself
wanting to be like, but this

00:52:20.115 --> 00:52:21.135
is still a thing in my life.

00:52:21.135 --> 00:52:21.835
Don't forget about it.

00:52:21.835 --> 00:52:22.185
What do you think

00:52:22.185 --> 00:52:22.515
that's about?

00:52:22.515 --> 00:52:23.295
What do you think that's about?

00:52:23.865 --> 00:52:24.375
I have a thought.

00:52:24.735 --> 00:52:25.725
I don't really know.

00:52:25.845 --> 00:52:30.015
I think just, I think because it
is something I deal with 24 7.

00:52:30.825 --> 00:52:34.225
There's just a part of me that wants
other people to understand that Yeah.

00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:35.590
This is a thing that I'm dealing with.

00:52:35.680 --> 00:52:35.740
Yeah.

00:52:35.740 --> 00:52:39.400
And this is something I'm feeling,
and even if I'm presenting as good

00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:42.340
and okay, and my life looks great,
it's like there's still this level of

00:52:43.180 --> 00:52:44.650
everything's not perfect all the time.

00:52:44.650 --> 00:52:45.565
So carrying this around with me.

00:52:45.570 --> 00:52:45.700
Yeah.

00:52:45.835 --> 00:52:46.125
Yeah.

00:52:46.510 --> 00:52:47.980
So it's just like acknowledging
that, I don't know.

00:52:48.070 --> 00:52:48.850
No, I'd like it too.

00:52:49.100 --> 00:52:49.580
It's just

00:52:49.580 --> 00:52:50.420
that I think you're right.

00:52:50.420 --> 00:52:54.110
I think we, so we really do want to be
seen and we want to be known by another

00:52:54.110 --> 00:52:55.640
person and we want people to care.

00:52:55.940 --> 00:53:00.830
And part of the growth process is
learning to care more for myself, knowing

00:53:00.830 --> 00:53:06.635
that others will ultimately fail me in
that that it is a it how many times?

00:53:06.635 --> 00:53:09.365
I said at the end of the day,
ultimately I need to figure out a

00:53:09.365 --> 00:53:11.915
way to validate myself, heal myself.

00:53:12.275 --> 00:53:15.965
But that doesn't mean that I don't want
to process emotion in concert with another

00:53:15.965 --> 00:53:20.255
human, or I want to go on this journey
together with somebody I care about or

00:53:20.255 --> 00:53:22.285
have these mutual shared experiences.

00:53:22.375 --> 00:53:22.465
Mm-hmm.

00:53:22.705 --> 00:53:24.295
I still think those are the best.

00:53:24.325 --> 00:53:25.135
They are ideal.

00:53:25.645 --> 00:53:29.875
Because eventually you learn
to be to be okay and be in the

00:53:29.875 --> 00:53:31.255
relationship with the other person.

00:53:31.855 --> 00:53:34.525
And then that's it's no longer
your two halves of a hole, your

00:53:34.525 --> 00:53:37.045
two holes, which always makes me
wanna tell a joke at that point.

00:53:37.855 --> 00:53:37.885
Okay.

00:53:37.975 --> 00:53:38.185
But your

00:53:38.185 --> 00:53:41.215
two complete holes going together and
then you're, it's like then now, or the

00:53:41.215 --> 00:53:42.985
one plus one is three kind of a concept.

00:53:43.195 --> 00:53:43.285
Mm-hmm.

00:53:43.885 --> 00:53:44.215
Yeah.

00:53:45.015 --> 00:53:45.225
Deep.

00:53:45.405 --> 00:53:46.005
Deep.

00:53:46.665 --> 00:53:46.995
Okay.

00:53:47.095 --> 00:53:47.875
I think we should call it.

00:53:48.675 --> 00:53:48.855
Okay.

00:53:48.855 --> 00:53:50.415
We're gonna do this again next year.

00:53:50.955 --> 00:53:51.225
Yeah.

00:53:51.225 --> 00:53:51.885
Perhaps.

00:53:51.945 --> 00:53:52.215
Okay.

00:53:52.215 --> 00:53:52.995
A couple years from now.

00:53:53.155 --> 00:53:56.395
Oh, go find you on, you're doing some
killer stuff on the social medias.

00:53:56.395 --> 00:53:57.175
I'll put the links in.

00:53:57.175 --> 00:53:57.685
Show notes.

00:53:57.685 --> 00:53:57.865
Thank you.

00:53:57.865 --> 00:54:01.895
And where, because you had one of
your, I'd even texted you this, I

00:54:01.895 --> 00:54:05.225
shared your story where you were
running one day with Hashimoto's.

00:54:05.225 --> 00:54:06.365
Mm-hmm.

00:54:06.366 --> 00:54:09.310
With a norm, a number of people,
because that was so powerful.

00:54:09.310 --> 00:54:10.300
Can you kind of sum that up?

00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:11.140
What was that about?

00:54:11.140 --> 00:54:13.060
And people would need to go find this Post

00:54:13.180 --> 00:54:13.390
it.

00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:13.690
Okay.

00:54:13.720 --> 00:54:16.540
So I've been posting on my
Beauty by Mackey account.

00:54:16.540 --> 00:54:18.660
I've been posting more about my wellness.

00:54:18.975 --> 00:54:20.355
Journey inside of things.

00:54:20.355 --> 00:54:25.635
But I recently got like lab
results back, got some news back.

00:54:25.635 --> 00:54:26.715
Things were not great.

00:54:27.015 --> 00:54:31.065
And so my solution, because I grew up
with a freaking ultra runner dad who,

00:54:31.695 --> 00:54:34.305
triathlete mom and an Iron Man mother.

00:54:34.335 --> 00:54:34.755
Yeah.

00:54:34.995 --> 00:54:37.935
So my solution to those
problems is to go for a run.

00:54:37.935 --> 00:54:37.995
Yeah.

00:54:38.505 --> 00:54:42.785
But I just filmed each mile and talked
about things each mile and I just was

00:54:42.785 --> 00:54:46.795
feeling all the feelings and having
some big moments of feeling really

00:54:46.795 --> 00:54:50.395
sad and upset and frustrated that this
is something I have to go through.

00:54:50.395 --> 00:54:53.960
And this has been a big change in my
life that has been negative and a lot

00:54:54.115 --> 00:55:00.765
of ways, but then that I was having some
deep feeling moments on my run that like

00:55:00.765 --> 00:55:03.745
I, I was also really proud of myself
for how I handled it and how I've made

00:55:03.745 --> 00:55:06.685
a lot of changes and just feeling like.

00:55:07.405 --> 00:55:10.345
In that moment, like, okay, you
know, I am actually going to be okay.

00:55:10.405 --> 00:55:11.785
And I don't know what that looks like.

00:55:11.790 --> 00:55:11.970
Yeah.

00:55:12.190 --> 00:55:14.065
And I think that's like a big,
deep thing where it's still

00:55:14.065 --> 00:55:15.715
unknown and it's still uncertain.

00:55:16.345 --> 00:55:20.515
And I technically don't have anyone
saying, yes, you are going to be okay.

00:55:20.815 --> 00:55:24.405
But kind of finding that peace,
like within myself of knowing

00:55:25.245 --> 00:55:26.805
somehow some way I am gonna be okay.

00:55:26.805 --> 00:55:30.255
Because technically, and this is
something you have always gone on for, but

00:55:30.255 --> 00:55:34.725
technically I have been okay every single
time that anything has happened, you know?

00:55:34.725 --> 00:55:34.785
Yeah.

00:55:35.145 --> 00:55:37.845
And that's like a deep thing and that's
a dumb thing that you've not done.

00:55:37.845 --> 00:55:39.055
Oh, thank you.

00:55:39.055 --> 00:55:39.085
It's not dumb.

00:55:39.085 --> 00:55:39.115
It sounds great.

00:55:39.115 --> 00:55:42.195
But you always tell me one of my
biggest anxiety symptoms is feeling

00:55:42.195 --> 00:55:43.785
like I can't take a full deep breath.

00:55:43.875 --> 00:55:44.205
Right?

00:55:44.265 --> 00:55:44.355
Yeah.

00:55:44.355 --> 00:55:44.925
You're hunger,

00:55:45.345 --> 00:55:46.875
you've nailed it so far
in your life though.

00:55:46.875 --> 00:55:48.135
But that's what you always say to me.

00:55:48.135 --> 00:55:48.225
Yeah.

00:55:48.225 --> 00:55:49.010
You've been breathing good.

00:55:49.010 --> 00:55:51.195
Or I'll say to you like, I cannot,
I feel like I can't breathe.

00:55:51.195 --> 00:55:52.515
Like I, this is not okay.

00:55:52.575 --> 00:55:56.565
And then you will hit me with the,
so far you've been breathing okay.

00:55:56.685 --> 00:55:57.705
A hundred percent of your life.

00:55:57.885 --> 00:55:58.185
Yeah.

00:55:58.245 --> 00:55:59.865
And it's like, I think that that is just.

00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:01.860
It's a testament though, to bigger things.

00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:04.410
And when change is happening and
when things are really hard, where

00:56:04.410 --> 00:56:07.070
it's it's that cheesy saying where
it's like you've survived a hundred

00:56:07.070 --> 00:56:09.290
percent of your worst days or whatever,
where it's like, that's funny.

00:56:09.350 --> 00:56:11.950
It's a dumb little Pinterest
quote that you see, but it's true.

00:56:11.950 --> 00:56:13.240
And you've You've made it through.

00:56:13.330 --> 00:56:13.630
Yeah.

00:56:14.230 --> 00:56:14.980
Every single thing.

00:56:14.980 --> 00:56:18.000
And so anyways, on this run, I was just
having that epiphany of okay, I'm okay.

00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:22.290
And then specifically in that moment
here I am, 70 pounds down, running

00:56:22.290 --> 00:56:24.205
10 miles, like maybe 10 miles.

00:56:24.275 --> 00:56:24.565
Yeah.

00:56:24.870 --> 00:56:25.560
Maybe I'm okay.

00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:25.920
Yeah.

00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:27.060
Or maybe I will be okay.

00:56:27.330 --> 00:56:29.400
And it's probably still gonna be
an up and down thing and there's

00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:33.390
still gonna be all those moments
of scary change and scary unknown.

00:56:33.720 --> 00:56:37.050
But that doesn't mean that I
can't find moments even within

00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:40.140
that where I'm Okay, but then no
long term, yeah, I will be okay.

00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:40.530
Yeah.

00:56:40.710 --> 00:56:41.250
That's amazing.

00:56:41.310 --> 00:56:42.240
That is, I love that.

00:56:42.245 --> 00:56:42.325
Because

00:56:42.450 --> 00:56:43.590
I don't know what else
I talked about in that.

00:56:43.590 --> 00:56:45.565
I don't know if I even hit
that, but that was the gist.

00:56:45.565 --> 00:56:46.080
That was a big one.

00:56:46.085 --> 00:56:46.285
Yeah.

00:56:46.290 --> 00:56:46.470
Yeah.

00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:48.690
And so 10 miles, when is the
marathon you're training for?

00:56:49.110 --> 00:56:49.920
It's in December

00:56:50.010 --> 00:56:51.120
and it is the what marathon?

00:56:51.195 --> 00:56:51.255
The

00:56:51.495 --> 00:56:52.425
Phoenix Marathon.

00:56:52.425 --> 00:56:52.455
Okay.

00:56:52.455 --> 00:56:53.385
If anybody's in Phoenix.

00:56:53.415 --> 00:56:54.255
And I'm terrified.

00:56:54.315 --> 00:56:54.615
Yeah.

00:56:54.615 --> 00:56:55.875
You're going training for that right now.

00:56:56.060 --> 00:56:58.995
You want, you wanna hear a little bit of
where my immaturity still lies though?

00:56:59.325 --> 00:57:01.305
I almost wanted to say a funny
thing and and 'cause you're

00:57:01.305 --> 00:57:03.355
running such fast splits now.

00:57:03.355 --> 00:57:06.295
I was gonna say, Hey, what's it like
to finally be faster than the old man?

00:57:06.295 --> 00:57:07.465
I'm like, wait, you've always been faster.

00:57:07.465 --> 00:57:08.455
I could just go a little bit longer.

00:57:09.175 --> 00:57:09.685
A little bit.

00:57:09.685 --> 00:57:09.835
Yeah.

00:57:09.835 --> 00:57:11.755
You're running a hundred
mile races, sir. Yeah,

00:57:11.755 --> 00:57:12.415
but no, but it's like it though.

00:57:12.415 --> 00:57:15.975
But even like from high school
on you were beating me, whatever.

00:57:15.975 --> 00:57:16.245
Okay.

00:57:16.245 --> 00:57:19.935
Mackey people will find you on
at Beauty by Mackey on Instagram.

00:57:19.935 --> 00:57:20.385
Mm-hmm.

00:57:20.625 --> 00:57:21.015
And

00:57:21.735 --> 00:57:22.740
I think that's TikTok too.

00:57:22.740 --> 00:57:23.775
TikTok Beauty by Mackey.

00:57:23.895 --> 00:57:24.135
Okay.

00:57:24.795 --> 00:57:25.335
Simple.

00:57:25.545 --> 00:57:26.595
And The Mind, the Mirror and me.

00:57:27.225 --> 00:57:28.485
Lots of old episodes.

00:57:28.485 --> 00:57:28.545
Yeah.

00:57:28.575 --> 00:57:30.135
But it's what we've
done together, so Yeah.

00:57:30.140 --> 00:57:30.260
Yeah.

00:57:30.265 --> 00:57:31.605
We have a lot of stuff there.

00:57:31.605 --> 00:57:33.435
And we maybe will try to do more.

00:57:33.495 --> 00:57:33.675
I think

00:57:33.675 --> 00:57:33.945
so.

00:57:34.425 --> 00:57:34.695
Okay.

00:57:35.265 --> 00:57:35.805
Love you Mac.

00:57:36.315 --> 00:57:36.855
Love ya.

00:57:37.635 --> 00:57:38.205
My hands are sweaty.

00:57:39.495 --> 00:57:40.065
Arms weak.

00:57:40.065 --> 00:57:40.995
Like spaghetti or No?

00:57:40.995 --> 00:57:41.355
What is it?

00:57:41.685 --> 00:57:42.255
What's the m Andum?

00:57:42.255 --> 00:57:42.345
Mom?

00:57:42.345 --> 00:57:42.885
Spaghetti.

00:57:42.885 --> 00:57:43.485
Mom Spaghetti.

00:57:44.205 --> 00:57:44.325
Oh.

00:57:44.325 --> 00:57:45.945
But then it's like something
on your shirt already.

00:57:46.245 --> 00:57:48.405
It's calm and ready to drop bombs.

00:57:48.930 --> 00:57:51.930
We keep something, but I keep on
forgetting what she wrote down.

00:57:52.230 --> 00:57:53.295
Oh, that would've been nice to hit start.