Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of fill in the blank with your podcast.
I think this is going to run on love ADHD, possibly waking up to narcissism
as well as a virtual couch.
Regardless, I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And today's episode is a special one because I get to talk with one of my good
friends, Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee.
You may know Julie as my co-host on love ADHD.
She was passing through Arizona, so we got her in studio, and she recently had
a chance to interview Kevin Franke,
the former husband of Ruby Franke, whose story has been widely covered in the
Hulu documentary, The Devil and the Family, which I can't recommend enough.
It's a lot, but it's so well done.
You might expect that today's conversation would be about breaking down her
interview with Kevin, and that was the goal. but what we ended up talking about,
what struck me the most was the reaction that Julie received after her interview aired.
And it was a lot of criticism, which is part of being a content creator,
which sounds so pretentious.
But the comments, the strangers on the internet who suddenly felt like they
were very confident, very entitled to tell Julie who she should be, how she should show up,
all the things that she was doing wrong, how she should have conducted herself
and a lot of what Kevin should have done, despite the fact that if you have
listened to my podcast for a while, I will maintain that no one knows what it
feels like to be him or you or me.
And so that is truly something else, adorable, precious, that you can tell someone
else how they should have lived their life or how they should feel.
We can be genuinely curious. We can also say to ourselves, man,
I would imagine I would handle it differently.
But when you can get past that, then you can actually be curious and take in
the material and really try to understand what that must have been like.
I think we have such a desire to find connection or a community or a purpose,
and we want certainty and we want to understand and we want to know all of these
things that are just, they're wired. They're part of our default.
So at this 30,000 foot view.
It's like we're saying, well, I'm a human and he's a human, so I'm sure we all
do the same things. So he shouldn't have done that because I wouldn't do that.
Let me be very dramatically clear that the last thing that I am trying to say
is that it is not okay for someone to have their own opinion.
As a matter of fact, I love the concept of everything that we interact with. It's our muse.
It's a chance to take a look at what I am seeing or what I'm hearing and what
does it bring up for me? Does it bring up some big emotions?
Am I offended? Do I want justice in this moment?
But if I find myself then just wanting to get rid of that discomfort by telling
that person what they did was wrong, that is, in my opinion,
a pretty emotionally immature way to react. I can have a reaction.
I feel angry. I feel frustrated. I feel sad.
But that is a me thing. Why is it that I feel angry or sad? Oh,
it's because I really can't imagine what that was like for Kevin and Ruby's kids.
Or I might find myself having a lot of empathy for Kevin, and I didn't even
anticipate that that would be the case when I hear his story.
Or I might have a lot of anger because that anger is a me thing,
and hearing his story or even watching the interview with Kevin and Julie brings up some emotion.
But that, again, is my chance to take a look at what is happening to me because
of this interview, this person, this thing that I'm interacting with.
What we'll talk about a lot in today's episode is what people do with that immediate
reaction, because all of a sudden they have big feelings.
And I think if we have never really learned what to do with those feelings,
then we want to diffuse them.
We want to put them over onto somebody else. And okay, I don't like the way
I feel. So obviously he is doing what he is doing wrong.
He is doing his life wrong, even though no one knows what it feels like to be someone else.
So when you can recognize the big feelings, absolutely welcome them in.
What are the stories that they are telling you?
Maybe that story is, I would sure hope I would never do something like that.
But if I'm being really honest, I have no idea.
I've never been that person walking in their shoes.
Julie is one of the kindest, most genuine people I know.
It is really funny and you'll hear it in this interview. And if you have listened
to any of the Love ADHD podcast, that it's kind of funny that Julie did not
know that she had ADHD until later in life.
You will see ADHD on full display by both Julie and me.
But when I first started seeing some of the comments roll in that we'll talk
about today, honestly, I felt all the feelings.
My heart sank because I worried about Julie because it's one thing to create
content and another to suddenly be on the receiving end of a tidal wave of opinions
from people who don't know you, but they do feel something. And if I feel it, it must be true.
It's one of the signs of emotional maturity that I think most of us do.
I was going to say we all do.
So then if I feel it, it must be true. And then we will typically slip into
the, then I'm going to assume that these feelings must be factual.
And that really is what fascinates me. I know I still do it as well,
especially as I spend more time working with people and talking about emotional immaturity.
And I believe very strongly that we are all emotionally immature until we're
not. And then even then, it is a lifelong process.
When we don't do our own work, our own mental health work, we will often confuse feeling with truth.
So we feel something really strongly and so it must be true.
So if I feel that Kevin is a weak husband, then he is weak. If I feel like Julie
should have conducted herself differently, then she must have done it wrong.
And in essence, now I'm saying, I feel that it must be true.
Now I need you to prove to me that you are not doing the thing that I think
you're doing, which you can already see that that game's a little bit rigged.
And it is such a common pattern and emotionally immature responses,
mistaking these emotions for reality, projecting that reality onto others and
now saying, now start dancing and let's see if I believe what you're going to say.
What you'll hear in this episode is Julie and me unpacking some of the comments
together with a lot of humor and honesty.
We talk about what it is like to navigate
being on the receiving end of criticism and why people
are quick to give unsolicited advice or past judgment and then how black and
white thinking keeps us from this genuine curiosity and i really believe that's
where we grow we read some of the youtube comments out loud we respond in real
time and i think that makes for some definite laughs and there's some takeaways we also,
dive into gaslighting trauma bonding and why leaving abusive situations is.
Rarely as simple, if ever, as outsiders want to believe.
And I love that Kevin talked about this in his interview with Julie.
I call it whole object relations, how somebody can feel anger,
grief, gratitude, and love, and sadness, and frustration all at one time.
That is the beginnings of emotional maturity.
Also, we talk about why hurt people so often end up hurting people,
and how online comments can reveal more about the commenter's inner world than
even about the person that they're critiquing.
And then we handle a little bit about projection and shame and black and white
thinking when you see it, whether it's in your relationships,
your family, or the comment section of YouTube.
And Julie and I also talk about the cruise that we're co-hosting this January.
We would love to see you there.
The link will be in the show notes. If you'd like to keep up with me with other
things, please follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch and TikTok at virtualcouch
and head to tonyoverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter.
Those are starting to get out with more regularity. And that is the best way
to hear about upcoming courses,
events, groups, including my Path Back Online recovery group,
my men's emotional architects group,
my private women's Facebook group for those navigating relationships with emotionally
immature or narcissistic individuals or people with strong narcissistic traits,
whether that is a spouse, a parent, a boss, a sibling, a religious leader.
And I will maintain a cat because the majority of cats that I have met do in
fact exhibit very strong narcissistic traits bordering, dare I say, on psychopathy.
So whether you came here curious about Kevin Franke or interested in Julie's
experience, or you just want to learn a little bit more about emotional maturity
and action, this episode has a little bit of everything, some hard truths,
I think some good laughs and some insight on, I think, why people say the things that they do.
And what do we even do with that? I am so grateful that Julie was willing to
sit down and to have this conversation, let's get right to it.
And honestly, one of my dreams, I think, but I know, first of all,
I want to say, hey, welcome to the deep end of the internet,
right, Julie? Are you starting? Yeah, we're starting.
Okay, great. Julie DeJesus. Are you used to it yet?
But I love it. Whenever I say it or realize, I'm like, oh, yeah,
I just love my new last name a lot. Do you take offense when people still refer to you as Julie Lee?
So much offense. I can tell. No, zero offense. I literally, as you're coming
here, I just changed it in my sister's phone because it still comes up as Julie Lee.
And so now it has DeJesus in my phone. I love that. Did it have the updated picture too?
That's amazing. This is meant to be. Let's talk about our cruise because I'm
pumped. I'm pumped. I didn't realize this shows how much I'm not paying attention.
I came and apologized to you for not really promoting it as much as I could.
And I just assumed you were out there, pounding the pavement, getting the word out.
Nor to nor knocking. But I think you said, what percentage of A-ing it were
you doing? Half. Half. And I said, I'm a fifth.
I'm like a half of one cheek. The people that really care are signing up. Yeah, they are.
I appreciate it. There's still plenty of time. It's the end of January.
Yes, there's still spots. Flying and not swimming. We're on a boat.
Cruising. Cruising out of Galveston, Texas. Correct.
January 26th. Fourth. Fourth. fourth but the
we will be on the boat on the 26th coming
for sure i was saying the 26th is a really i mean that's an important part
of it yeah day absolutely it's midweek it's mid-cruise
yeah it's the most important day it is probably one of our creative workshops is
on that day yeah so we're gonna do creative workshops dinner i'm super
excited because some of the people that i do know they're coming and i
i'm gonna sound egotistical but i'll say you might
even get to eat dinner with me and it's my own family yeah
they're saying i think we'll pass like i
think we will find another place for dinner right yeah that is
what's nice about the cruise though is because yes we
have these couple workshops i think when it gets closer we
might even send out an email about some possible excursions if we want to
do them all together which would be sweet but what's nice is really like the rest of
the time you can just cruise with your family and royal caribbean's doing kids
sale free which i did not know when we started this i'm pretty stoked about
that because then people can come with their families and just have a fun vacation
hopefully a discounted rate because we got it all in bulk room but then we can
talk mental health stuff and have a good time And this is what I've been saying
when I've been talking about it or the advertising it is I 100% if you find me on that boat,
ask me anything, your marriage questions, your ADHD.
Anxiety, depression, narcissism, emotional maturity. I love this stuff. I do.
That's what's awesome. No, you really do. You're not like you don't go run into your cabin and hide.
Let's talk. I think they'll have to be. So there could be more boundaries.
Right. Can you get off the table, please? He is the right person to me and get
free therapy. I think I said in one of the ads, man, if you find me with soft
serve ice cream in hand And then I said, okay, I probably won't be carrying
it around in hand. I'll have it in a bowl.
Or in the cones. A cone. And then ask me anything, please.
So that'd be fun. And I don't know what our workshops are yet,
but those will be fun. You'll know.
We're going to talk all about mental health and thriving and stuff and resilience
and all that. So you're going to have good stuff to add to that. I'm excited.
Okay. So there's a link in all the show notes all the time. Come sign up.
We're both going to put more effort.
I was going to say A's into the promoting it. Right? We're excited. Yeah. Okay.
Is Love ADHD going to come back? I've been asked this a number of times.
That's such a question and that is TBD.
Yeah. Why did it disappear, Julie?
Wow we both have adhd it got so funny though
it was so fun though and it was but then every
time someone this is the problem is everyone some time someone talks to
me and is like i love this i binged it i just i'm like
we gotta do this but you and i both have other
ventures that also pay our bills and so it's
a little bit tricky but i love it yeah it will come back so much yes it will
come back that's what you just said it will come back it will but today we are
here to talk about the interview you did with kevin frankie yes first i am curious
and we'll get to the fun stuff i was gonna say when we first hit record i would
love to just go through the youtube comments and then.
React to them as a therapist no i want to can
we please yeah i actually wanted to do a little at some
point i want to you know how they do unlike jimmy fallon how you just read them with a straight
face how did you score the interview and
i loved what you talked about what is the name of the documentary i watched
it immediately yeah it's called devil in the family the
fall of ruby frankie and he said it was the most watched documentary
ever and it was so good it really did a
really good job and he even kevin feels
like they did a really good job and it's not like he's
painted as a perfect person on it he's been very i've been really impressed
with his just ownership of whoa mistakes were made and whoa i would do things
differently and also just really honest with the level of gaslighting and brainwashing
and just noticing something by chad the other day I was watching an interview by him.
Chad's his oldest son. The oldest son, yeah. Who has quite a big following online.
And I know that Chad and... Sherry. Sherry, thank you. Which I did read her
book. It really was amazing.
I heard it was phenomenal. I actually reached out to her. Sherry,
if you ever watched this.
And said, I'd love to have you on the virtual couch. But at that point, it just went nuts.
But it was such a good book. I haven't read the book yet, but I've heard such good things.
But I've just been really impressed as I've listened to some of their interviews
and them describe it. I feel like...
I've seen both of them be compassionate towards Kevin for his situation and also say what's true.
And also, I've seen Kevin be so proud of them.
And I just think that has been a really cool thing to see. Not always common
in our world today. People want things to be black and white.
But I've seen some really neat understanding just from afar.
The way Kevin speaks of his children, he's really proud of them.
Kevin talked about something that I call whole object relations,
which is the ability to have multiple emotions in one thing.
Didn't you love that part? Yeah, it was so good because he can be angry and
sad and frustrated and grateful all at once.
And that's what so many of the YouTube comments are about. Exactly.
And even things attacking me is like, how can you have this person on that was
involved with someone that did this?
Or how can you say you loved her? And I don't know about you,
when I watched the documentary, I was so touched at that part where he says,
this is the person. I was in the hospital room. This is the person.
And I just thought, this is real life. This is what it's really like to be in
a relationship with someone who starts to go down a path you don't agree on.
But it's not all at once, like the frog in the water.
So it's a little at a time. Very little. And over years, that's the thing. Years and years.
And the brain craves certainty so much. So we're giving people the consistent benefit of the doubt.
We're making it about us. Maybe I need to do something different or all that.
I don't want them to think this.
I'm not going to bring this up. And you do that over and over again.
And over time, it just is. And I think that's what's fascinating.
Now, one of the things I also want to do, I have the transcript and I should
have highlighted places, but there were several places where my good friend
Julie Lee or Julie DeJesus mentioned things and I'm like, oh,
here she goes. She's about to say, oh, I learned these things from my friend Tony.
Do you know of any of those things? You talked about, hey, we're all a unique combination.
And you got a couple of them, right? Nature, nurture, birth order,
DNA, abandonment, rejection, hope, spheres. I did not first hear that from you.
Oh, yes, you did, my friend. That is my spiel.
I've got a t-shirt that says all those things, as a matter of fact.
And I even thought about- You came up with that? Yes. Not my therapist when
I first got into therapy. No. When we'd never met. No. It was all from you? Yes.
I mean, the whole speech of them. The whole speech of them. There was.
And talking about getting out of discomfort, radical acceptance,
psychological flexibility.
And I kept going, here she goes. she's about to throw me a little
little bone here nope she's like and as
i've always thought all by myself and came up with on my own
i've done my own research right but i'm
not bitter i feel safe blink twice no that
was my immaturity and i'm being honest the super funny part about that is
i remember i had a one of the first years i was
a therapist in my early 30s so just you know a few years ago
um insert laughter sorry i
zoned out for a second because i think this is a fake nail that's on my leg
and it's sparkling black is that one of your clients probably yeah sitting and
fiddling with it okay what is this so i'm so sorry no you've been in therapy
30 years no it was quite the opposite of that i was saying in my early 30s a
few years ago oh okay anyway yeah
now i can't remember the joke i was gonna make dang it no wonder oh it was there
was okay a real of that part right here and with the question of why have you
guys why are you guys gonna do the.
This is the answer okay but there was i still
remember the kid there was a kid and he was in his
teenage years i was a brand new therapist and i still remember him and he said
nobody likes to be showed on and i thought loved it so i started saying that
is you yeah well what's funny is i know that it's this other guy and i'll hear
other people say it and now i'll say how dare they i'll hear somebody like i
don't know oprah winfrey or brenne brown i'm like do they listen to my stuff
i mean that's how egotistical i can be,
100 it's fascinating but i even i know who told
me that but i'm not gonna say it out loud because i don't want them to have the credit no
i said it first okay we can read the youtube comments
but how did you score the interview because when you
texted me i remember and i just was like wait what you're like
oh guess who i'm interviewing and then the funniest part was then i
completely forgot someone that would care i did and i did and then
there were some people that are like not knowing how to react i was like tony okay i know
that i texted you about wanting to connect kevin at
some point because a lot of the people that i work with are trauma
bonded to a narcissistic person and that's
that intermittent reinforcement the person that gives you the punishment also delivers the
reward and kevin has lived it i have guys right now that have honestly said
before you interviewed him that if there was anybody that would really understand
it would be a guy like kevin frankie for real and that's why i want him to know
that yeah because i see him and in the comments we'll talk about that and you
literally are working with men who have been in constantly.
And i've sent your interview with kevin and
when he when he talks about the you can't tell him two plus two
is four could you tell i was like bawling through that whole i
don't know what about two plus two that just brings up so many feelings for
me having well because everybody else is telling them come on man you know it's
four right and then even if they're like ah and the advice he gives of how to
help someone get out of it was just so that's the part that when i read the
comments as a person a therapist now 20 years and of working with narcissistic
and emotionally immature relationships,
the trauma bond is a very consistent piece of that, whether it's intense like
Kevin's, where he's willing to.
Be separated from his kids for a year which no one will understand no one will
understand unless they've been in his exact situation even then you can't even
understand and when i'm talking with my clients it's not that i don't think
like you know this is crazy right i'm a human but then i also know that has
worked so far zero percent of times and helping somebody out of a trauma bond,
it's just like when you're working with somebody and they have hallucinations
so they hear voices the first thing you do is you don't say oh no you don't
it's like tell me about that you know what is that like approach with curiosity
so anyway how did you get the interview so it's actually I think it's really cool.
Had a mutual friend who was friends with Kevin long before any of this happened,
hadn't heard from him in a while, and had just reached out to me saying,
hey, I feel like I can't imagine that what he's been through the last couple
years, and I'm in contact with him now.
And I'd love for him to be able to go to dinner with some of us that I know
would be safe people for him.
And so I was honored that they just asked me, hey, how would you feel about
this? And I was like, yeah, but I did. I hadn't watched the documentary.
And then I did before going to dinner with him, which was fine.
Either way, I assume that he walks in and thinks everybody's seen it.
But I don't know. So it's this whole awkward thing of do I play dumb and just
be like, oh, hi, what's your name? Because I wouldn't have recognized him if
I had not watched the documentary before.
Because when that all went down, it actually was in my hometown,
really close to where I lived.
I remember I had an aunt from the East Coast text me and say,
hey, have you heard about this?
Almost saying which your influencer crowd in utah look at this you know and
at the time i was like i don't want to hear about that but just i was going
through my own stuff i didn't want to just really consume a lot of things that
felt negative and so it had been a couple years since that happened and yeah
so we just went to dinner my husband and i with a few friends and met him there
and it wasn't even about him it was just about some friends getting together
and inviting him into a group that we already had.
And I just, he sat across from me and I just instantly felt.
I wanted to learn so much from him. I had so much to learn from him.
And my husband and I both were really impressed with him. And my husband's never seen the documentary.
I am glad I watched it. But also, I don't know that my interactions with him
would have been that different had I not.
Everybody we meet every day has stuff we don't know about. His just happens to be public.
And so, I don't think it really changes how I interact with him.
Can I ask a very vulnerable question of you and then you'll see where I'm going with this?
I like what you said that he can walk in and probably would assume that there
are a lot of people that would recognize him. Yeah. I haven't asked him that.
Because I've had a handful of people that have had some level of pretty big fame or notoriety.
And we've talked about this and because that's a thing, it's a tangible feeling
with even you being out there and having video.
And do you ever, you get recognized because you've told me about that. I mean, and I have too.
That's why I'm saying it's very vulnerable because it's going to sound egotistical,
but I'm just saying it's fascinating because all it takes is a couple of times like that.
And I know you kind of think maybe somebody around here does, right?
There is a weird thing where I've gotten recognized a couple times.
And then there's this weird thing where your brain's like, oh,
everyone knows who I am. And you're like, what do I do with this?
And you're not that, but because the few people that do, all of a sudden you're
like, wait, am I picking my nose?
And it's this funny thing, but it's very stressful because I feel like I need
to be like a perfect human being that has answers.
I'm a mess a lot of the time as we all are, but it is funny how it just takes
a couple of times and you're like, does everybody know me?
And like, no one's heard of you. And that's what I love. So that's why I said
it's very vulnerable because, and we've been, we moved here to Arizona.
It's been a year and a half ago. And it was maybe the second week that we were
here and we're at a softball game.
Somebody recognized me and I'm sitting there with my wife and two of my daughters.
And so then of course that sets the table. And I got recognized in the Phoenix airport early on.
And it's kind of like not since, but you'd get those two early and all of a
sudden I'm walking around the mall and I'm like, I don't know. You can't go anywhere.
Are there cameras in the bushes? Like, I don't know. And I'll joke with my wife
when we're heading out. I'm like, I forgot a Sharpie.
Like, I don't want to let the people down. Come on. I don't think she thinks it's very funny.
But so I can't, I go back to, but I cannot imagine actually thinking that people,
that the majority of people, if you have a Hulu documentary.
Yeah. He actually is recognized probably a lot. Yeah.
Perhaps you've seen me on my stint on the Deep Cable BYU channel where I talk for five minutes.
My three minutes on Good Things Utah, right?
Like four years ago, I'm like, I was on the news. so
they're like oh we can't find you anywhere we giggle you nowhere no like it's
there okay no i don't want to make you feel bad julie but last night i'm sitting
there thinking okay i'm gonna i'm gonna finish i'm gonna listen to this thing
again on the way home from the airport last night and i pull up interview i
did with kevin so i pull youtube and i'm like kevin frankie it's all i do,
i just feel like i know exactly what you're about to say because that's
happened to me too it's so crazy i thought okay your
interview with him is brand new and it's fresh and it's hot and
i'm like just i'm and i'm driving immediately kind of like kevin
frankie next to be one of these scroll no scroll
and then i'm like kevin frankie j u l
i e no but eventually
it came up it did oh and i is that
hurt your feelings no because truly it's truly it's not about me wait but some
people i just wish more positive things were noticed because there is so much
about him out there and And it is so insane and mean and so much of it is not
even factual that I'm like,
it's just unfortunate that that's what makes the news. But no, it's not about me.
I just hope the people that it is helpful to, I just hope people will listen
to it. Look, it comes up very first now.
Should we read some of the comments? Let's do this. Okay, this is going to be
fun. I'm reading though. You read them. Okay.
And I will give you a final say on edits. That's what I was going to say. Do I say swears?
Julie, read your YouTube comments. I'm not going to read the mean things about Kevin as much. Okay.
And I can tackle some of those, honestly, not from a mean place,
but from a emotionally immature people commenting place. Okay. Then let's do it. Okay.
You don't just abandon your kids for over a year, even if your therapist tells you to.
Okay. Yeah. I'll read the ones and diagnose people. Okay. Okay.
So am I skipping these? Yeah. Do you want to read the ones about you?
Is my favorite i just want to also it's insane to compare
your wife being in prison with someone losing their sister to cancer
these aren't the same thing they're not even the same universe okay
now first of all were you aware that those weren't the same things i
mean literally yeah they're not the exact same no
i always love that we actually do literally live in the same universe yeah
maybe not that person but anyway but talk about the context is
what matters they listened this person did listen to the interview talk
about what the context of because i thought that was beautiful and
when you were talking about your sister absolutely what's interesting is
i was trying to be careful as a host you don't want to make it
all about you just i would assume as a therapist i know what
it's like to be a therapist it's the same right no i just kidding no but you're
absolutely correct you want it but there actually is quite a bit in here about
how i made things too much about me yeah and for me
there was a moment where it's more of a conversational style
where he has come to a lot
of truths that my sister as
she was dying with cancer came to and i think that's a neat correlation
to recognize of when everything is stripped away that
and you don't have like needing the validation of other people is not really
going to fix this like it's so big it's so unfixable by just common coping whatever
the same truths are realized in lots of work yes meditation yes and thinking
and prayer or whatever that looks like for people.
For me as a traveler in life that's something i want to pay attention to because
i'm like okay i can do that now without having to go there to get it yeah so that's what it was about,
was that she was she said a lot of the same things he was saying
when he was at his lowest yeah which that was beautiful
because and you guys talked about this was it so were
you saying that grief is a language is that what it was he said that yeah which
is i love that gang chills here too because you
probably think that you came up with this but i always say you don't
know what you don't know see how i just said a funny thing there you weren't
paying attention where you i said you think that you said you came up with that
come on that was funny okay but
what i mean but that is no one no one knows what it would
feel like to be in that situation until they are in
that situation and i just so well
here like you know let me make it about me my mom passed away
just a few weeks ago and i spent the three or four
days there by her bedside and i have talked to a lot of people about that process
and it is funny because then it's hard to not assume that you kind of have an
idea of what that would be like but boy once you are there and you are just
going through all the emotions, now all of a sudden I think, oh, I'm in the club.
I could get a t-shirt and now I can talk more real about that.
But not that you have to have the exact experience, but then you have to go
through things to then get to those depths of soul and really have to go find yourself.
And so, I love that you said getting rid of that need for external validation
when all of a sudden your world is gone or you don't really have much time left on this earth.
And no amount of external validation is going to fix that. So,
to me, That bless the person's heart. I always say that in therapy,
and then we can say whatever we want about them.
This is one of the biggest concepts of emotional maturity that I think is around.
And this is one of the, I think once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
If I feel it, it is true. That's a childhood adaptation.
If I think my mom and dad are mad at me, then they are. And then we say,
they say, you're so mad at me. And our parents like, no, I'm not champ.
And then eventually they're like, now this is me being mad at you.
They'll eventually get what they want there. But then when we become adults,
we still, if we haven't done our work, then we're still saying,
no, I think this and so it's true and now you need to prove it's not.
Like that is an incredibly emotionally mature thing to
do so basically she's saying you did your
job and you were being you wrong because i
think so so now i need you to make me feel better about myself
start dancing start dancing no i just
want to include this because there are some people that said some positive things
which is cool great interview i really appreciated the honesty and
authenticity praying for healing for all of your family kevin love that
yeah kevin needs to work on accountability and
not playing the victim in his own life he has free
will and advanced education and access to
so many resources there is really no excuse for
how badly he showed up in this case jody having
mental breakdowns and claiming to be possessed she was divorced and her own
kids don't talk to her and she lost her license does that sound like someone
that an educated person should take advice from even if that advice involves
betraying his own kids i get that he's human yeah i get that he's human i want
to start every conversation that way i I get that they're human,
but I get that he's human, but he's a grown man who chose to have a family and
now he's responsible for them. No excuses.
Okay. So that is riddled with all or nothing black or white thinking.
It just is this or that you either get it or don't.
Now let's talk about the psychology of projection. So most likely I would imagine
this person grew up in a pretty black and white environment where there was good and bad.
And so if you didn't do the right thing, it was the wrong thing.
And there's probably, I would imagine some good old perfectionism,
maybe a little OCD of thought, some things, but I don't even know who the person
is. That is literally me judging.
But I'm just bringing some gentle awareness. Correct. But then it also has the,
it's, I call it mind reading.
So we all know, we all think the same. Yes.
So then, so he should know because, and then it's the, I call it the right guys
thing. It's like, I mean, cause I would never do that. Right guys?
You know, you're looking over your shoulder, nobody's there.
I mean, yeah, but it's, no, I wouldn't do that.
And because I would hate to think that I ever could.
Now we're getting into that world of, because if that stuff can happen,
then this is world is crazy.
You know, this is like that. So I need certainty. I need, right?
I know you feel like you taught me everything which you have i did i'll say
in my book i see you there's a chapter about black and white thinking and about
the safety of thinking in black and white yes and i say it in much less intelligent
ways no you had that out there before but no but you're saying in a very smart
therapeutic way but i do think there's truth to,
thinking in black and white provides false safety yes that could not happen
to me i don't do those he must this must be wrong so then it can never happen
to me because that is a terrifying thought not to realize how mortal I am. Yes.
And that bad things could happen to good people.
Okay. And actually you quoted me in your book. So maybe I still could have taught you this. Correct.
That's a fair point. Correct. No, I love what you're saying there.
And it really is. We're all just trying to make sense of things. We want certainty.
We want to rid ourselves of our discomfort. And so we like to say,
if I was an educated man with this many kids, then I would have told that therapist
you're wrong. And I would have been out.
Which that's a lot of magical thinking that I would do all of these wonderful things.
If I was that same person in that same spot. Great story. There are so many
things that somebody would have to defend there, and I guarantee you that you
would start one or two of those, and then they would still, yeah, but, well, yeah, but.
So I don't believe that person's coming from a place of genuine curiosity.
Bust their heart. Yeah, they just want to be heard. Yep.
Okay, this old is, here we go. He's also a member of a religious organization
where men are the priesthood holders and head of the house.
He had all the power and gave it up to act like a kicked puppy.
His youngest son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy. Man.
You want to take that one or do you want me to take it? There's a lot there.
I think that I can start going into the projection, black and white thinking.
I think it's so it's true, make me feel better about this. We all think the
same. So you start seeing these patterns. What does priesthood holder mean?
What does head of household mean? What does that mean to you?
How did you grow up? That is where I'm like, oh, I.
Is that what that means is to have all the power whoa do i think some
people believe that 100 is that all truth his youngest
son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy that
is a really big statement to make people you've never met yes yeah
and that which is magical thinking that i would know but i like that
you said that too because the way people are growing up the things that
we saw modeled yeah i just have a couple right now they've
been married for a very long time and we just had the conversation of
she grew up where people yelled and screamed and then
worked it out and the guy essentially felt like he grew up in a library
so when people yell and scream then he plays small and
waits for the storm to pass and so you put that dynamic together and
anyone's saying well well obviously it happens this way
it doesn't understand they responded to it well guess
he wasn't that indoctrinated because ruby was the priesthood in
that relationship so therefore what is priesthood we
could get into that ruby was the priesthood in
that relationship that's funny too because that would mean whoever gets to rule with the
iron fist then is that actually means god's power which
is like god is much different than yes same was the priesthood
in that relationship i assume we're talking about joseph smith i think i can't even think
of a funny one off the top of my head okay like i couldn't think of somebody cal
there's so many things in there there's a funny one there
julie about you where they tuned out 30 minutes in i want
to know how you felt about that so good this was a great interview thank you
i grew up in a cult heavily indoctrinated and in the discourse surrounding the
case i've seen how many people really don't understand what being indoctrinated
and abused is like and i'm glad for them but i hate that kevin now not only
has to live with the consequences of his actions.
But also with the constant hate and criticism of people who understand so little.
I especially appreciated hearing about Kevin's personal faith after all of this.
I hope he knows there are a lot of people who are there praying for him, not just haters.
That's beautiful. Beautiful. And I do think that far fewer people take the time
to send those things, but the people that need to have a voice in commentary
of putting others down in the comment section,
I find that that is a bit of a pastime for them or that is how they start to feel like they matter.
As busy with other relationships and things like that.
And which is again i will own the judgment yeah totally i
just like this the way the footage is placed i thought you guys were holding hands i
think that was right i just love the breakup of that any other comments lol
it was very well cut i mean it looked like you guys were in the same studio
haha yeah i thought that was a new girlfriend lol it's just funny yeah any targeted
parent knows exactly what they saw in the footage of his police interview i
wasn't 100 sure on that But I mean,
I loved how he talked about when he was in that police interview.
Oh, and if you've watched it. Yeah.
Oh, it's a lot. Yeah. And I can't even imagine all of the emotions,
the adrenaline, the fear, all of those things going on at that time.
Now we're getting into something that I think you taught me,
the amygdala hijack. When you're flooded with emotions and cortisol and your
heart rate elevates, you literally lose access to the prefrontal cortex from part of your brain.
You can't make sense of things. You're in that reaction, fight or flight.
People in the comments are not nice to the interview or she did a good job.
Oh, that's nice. But then someone says, yes, she did.
The person being interviewed didn't do a good job, though. That's where all
the emotions are coming from.
So many interviewers interject too much of their own story into the interview.
Okay. I stopped listening at 30 minutes. So many interviewers interject too
much of their own story into the interview.
I choose podcasts because of who the subject is, not the person conducting the interview.
A good interviewer learns to listen more and talk less.
Julie, your thoughts? I agree. they should
learn to talk less they should go find another podcast they
enjoy more and i think it's okay so this is what i thought was fascinating
early on when people would say oh get to it
or the it takes too long to get to the point or i don't like their intro music
or whatever my first thought was always oh well then on your podcast you could
do it differently but if you really think that that person thinks that they're
drive by listening to you interviewing someone that they can now tell you how
you should be doing you differently than the way that you did.
So they apparently had a script of what your interview should have looked like
that they did not get to you.
So you were unaware of how you were supposed to do the podcast.
Is that fair? And that was a good old differentiation. Everything's a me thing.
It's an opportunity for me to self-confront and grow. Is there truth in that? I don't know.
Maybe. But next time it's the first time that I'm interviewing Kevin Franke,
then I'll do it differently.
Totally. Okay. Here's one. This This is new to me, 13 hours ago.
I don't really understand all the emotion around the deity conversation.
There are so many things that are right in front of me to be emotional about.
It just seems like a waste of time and energy to be focused on something that
I view as being just as much make-believe as dragons. I just don't get it.
I have lots of friends that are atheists i can understand that i've been through
immense suffering really through my entire life but i don't see the need
to pin all my hope and strength on a fairy godmother i
also don't believe in a fairy godmother just don't put that it is in my book but
yeah i don't actually believe in one though i'm not trying to be mean or rude
which i can appreciate or denigrate anyone's faith i'm really not sorry i love
when things start with that that's just exactly what it seems like to me i don't
get it you don't need to do that there There are so much better reasons to go
on and so many ways to get that strength you need in your weakest moments.
You don't have to try to imagine it into being.
Okay. So I have big thoughts on this one is when somebody says that I don't
get it, that's where I did an episode not too long ago about genuine curiosity.
And I do not believe that is genuine curiosity. That's I don't get it.
So I'm being curious. But then when you now tell me what you think,
then I call it provide me with an attack surface. So now I can tell you what
is wrong with your beliefs because I think there's a few different layers of curiosity.
One is, okay, fine. I will be curious to check a box. Okay, no, tell me.
There's another version where I go, no, I really want to know so that then I
can tell you that you're wrong and I'm right because that'll put me in this one-up position.
So genuine curiosity is an active process. You have to step outside of your ego.
You have to learn how to be, not react.
And so when he says, I don't get it, no one needs this, then it's like,
okay, hey thanks for sharing because i don't think he's really wanting to be
in a reciprocal dialogue.
Absolutely i will say there's this
one did was it taken off the really
the mean ones that said the bad words i didn't see bad words did you see the
cheating the affair thing i think i saw that one that is wait saying that you
and him were yeah they used a different word but okay maybe that one got blocked
ah it's so unfortunate it was no that was the one just the way that it was worded
that I was like, this is just... Just mean?
It's just mean, and it's just so off base of even anything that is being talked about.
But I get it. People are hurt. But I just, actually, Kevin, we've been talking
back and forth, and I'm like, don't, do not, you are forbidden from looking
at any of the comments on there, which he's so used to this. I bet.
I'm sure he knows not to if he's not going to. But yeah, there was someone then
that gone on and said that we have an intimate,
a very physically intimate relationship because that's
the only way clearly that we could
be doing this interview and i thought that was so fascinating i
was like huh and actually remind me different but
when we've done podcasts before adhd i had a lot of questions about if we were
involved or if we were married really really like huh so that is a requirement
i mean i was offended okay just wait wait i think is that didn't we figure you're
two decades older than me that's sounds dramatic but It's the fact that we're
all in committed marriages.
It's just funny. It's like, it's such a cheap shop. Wait, hold on. Two decades, though.
Is that true? I'm 35. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's decades.
So you'd be like my kid. Yeah, that's why it's just like... It's a trip.
Yeah, and then there's just lots of questions. There's something in German, which I looked at.
Check your heart. You might have some promuladic stuff here because you still
love Ruby. And then they have red flags. Again, it's that...
Yeah, trauma bond. Trauma bond, yep.
There's just a lot of stuff also questioning, like, about his activity and his
religion, which, again, it's just so fascinating to me.
I feel like that wasn't the point of any of the interview. And I think I am
fairly certain. I know some of the answers to those questions,
but there's part of me that doesn't even want to answer him because I just feel
like it's his story to share. And what does it have to do with the interview?
It doesn't. And again, it's like somebody just saying, I didn't like this one
thing. So you need to make me feel better.
Which even when I asked Kevin to do this interview, cause I thought about it a lot.
I just met this man. He has no reason to trust me. Why would he.
When I talked about it, I followed up with, and I feel this way of,
you don't owe me anything.
He doesn't owe anyone to do this no not at all like
he's he's done everything he needs to do he has every
right to go on and live the most healing life he can for himself for his
kids so he did this because he felt like
what i've learned maybe it could be helpful to someone and it will and it already
is like i've gotten messages and messages that people are like i am bawling
my eyes out because this is i have experienced this not to the same degree it's
different but i relate with this and i relate to the truths i feel hope i feel
there's so much of that just usually those aren't the people commenting on YouTube.
I don't even know how to comment on YouTube. Yeah. You know?
Cause if I like, I need to probably be more intentional about saying,
Hey, well done. I so appreciate it. Like it. And I move on.
And most of the comments are reserved for the people that are wanting to just take shots.
This dude is disgusting and ridiculous. He let it happen.
Don't give this delusion a platform.
There's no justification for exploiting children. Again, what's interesting
to me too, is as we watched the documentary is.
From what I saw and from what I've understood, I have several mutual friends
that were good friends with them during all this before it went as South.
I feel like vlogging was kind of new. This eight passengers channel,
I didn't know about. But I think it was a new thing that there wasn't people.
It's just so much easier to have. Hindsight's 20-20. This wasn't really a thing.
No, what's that called? Presentism, where we judge the past based on the present.
And it's super easy to do that. So, you take that along with no one knows what
it feels like to be you or me and we're in those moments, we're reacting and
then quite frankly, we're trying to make sense of things as they happen.
So, I think that's fascinating too.
Yeah, totally. Here's another one. A white privileged wealthy male claiming
hurt people hurt people.
Ooh, let's unpack that. What's going on for that person? That is hard, but that, whoa.
You just walked away from your kids and family because your wife's lover told you to hogwash. Okay.
I was sitting there thinking, Julie, there's something i wanted to make
sure we talk about again making it all about myself working in
this space as a therapist so i was familiar with jody
hildebrand i worked with a couple of guys that then
were divorced or ran out of their marriage by jody hildebrand yeah and i know
i have multiple friends that worked with her two friends in the documentary
in the meetings that i was looking closer it's my third time watching i was
like oh my gosh and i started texting i'm like you were the same i remember
you telling me about these groups and things you were learning.
I never made the connection. It was Jodi's group till two nights ago.
What I thought was really fascinating. One of my clients has sent me,
I have drawings that they had, that Jodi had their kids draw.
And it is heartbreaking because it's basically stick figure little kid drawings
that say truth and distortion.
And it's like her vibe, even with their kids.
And I ended up getting two or three guys that were, of course,
all confidentiality. I'm changing information.
My whole message on dealing with people that struggle with turning to,
And since it's on YouTube, I have to say, I think cornography, addicted to corn.
Oh, because does it make the video not show up? It can sometimes.
Turning to that as an unhealthy coping mechanism that my number one rule is no place for shame.
Shame is, I helped maybe 16, 17, 100 guys at this point.
And shame has been a component of zero of their recovery.
Jodi said, you start from a place of shame and you must feel shame.
Isolation. And it is the craziest thing in the world to start from that place.
And so I was almost honored at one point to have learned that it was mentioned
that what do I know? because I am coming from this place of just,
I was being deceptive and delusion.
And because I did not. This is you? Yeah, that I learned through one of my clients
that I was seeing individually that he was working with her as a couple.
That then I was being told that I don't know what I'm talking about.
So I love that. He was currently working with them? So that was kind of fun.
So Cody's stuff then was like, hey, therapist, you don't know what you're talking
about. My other therapist is teaching us this. Yes.
How fun is that? So that was a little bit of satisfaction, even watching that whole thing play out.
I just thought that was really, really interesting. but then seeing the
pictures from the impact was big was big and i
feel like there's a lot of people being quiet that actually did work with
her because they don't want to be involved which everybody has a right to their privacy
especially with therapy but it is interesting that it's
really easy to the more and more i've talked to everybody i
know that worked with her highly intelligent educated people also these were
not and it's just so fascinating to me because i think having watched the documentary
a few times now what really was cemented in my brain by the end is she actually
was really nice and pretty darn helpful in the beginning. In the beginning. She gained the trust.
Years. Yes, it was a long game. For years, it was a long game.
That's what trauma bonding is, that intermittent reinforcement is the long game.
I mean, Chad talks about it in interviews now, he's like, and they talk about
their marriage was looking better. There was positive things happening.
So, you get, you dig the closet and you get the trust and then you start turning
the dial after you have it and that's how someone can be effective in doing what she did.
They can. And what I think is fascinating too is when you go to therapy.
There's, I remember some data and And these days now I think,
okay, our memory is crazy that I need to probably look this up.
So I will tell you, I don't know the source, but there was a thought that 40%
of couples got better just by signing up for therapy because now they were doing something about it.
And so often you keep telling yourself, I'll do it later and I'll do it when
it gets worse, but then things get bad and then it's too uncomfortable and you
just say, okay, no, next time if something happens, I'm going to get help.
So just the very fact that you're signing up and somebody is saying words and
they seem confident about it.
I will often notice that because I love being a couples therapist.
And when somebody comes in, hey, we've got the right tools. It takes a lot to
come in here, a lot of courage.
And so they get better. They get better. And then there's like a little bit
of honeymoon period. And then they go back to their home base.
And then they think, oh my gosh, we can't even therapy well.
So I think she rode that cycle. She's saying, I'm very confident.
It's also as a therapist that you have to make a living by charging for this
stuff. I was blown away by how much she charged.
And she was also coming from this place of, can you tell us?
I know I cannot, but I know I do know.
And it was like, she would, yeah. Cause she was, yeah. Oh gosh.
She had a whatever point million dollar home down there in Southern Utah.
I would feel bad when I bumped my hourly rate up 10 bucks every couple of years.
And she's going thousands of dollars to sell these packages.
And there is a part where you feel like, and I think this is what started happening.
The educated people, the wealthy people, you feel like you are joining that
a special flower club. It's like Costco.
When you think, oh, I'm going to get what I pay for because if I'm going to go. Yeah.
Okay. Poor kid heart walking to Costco. I'm like, I don't belong here.
Does anyone realize I don't belong at Costco? She did create a sort of a status there. Yep.
And okay. So here's the comment. This entire story is pathetic.
The entire story this entire story is pathetic mr frankie is a spineless wimp
what kind of man allows a therapist to control him so the two of you are having
dinner are you there we go,
ing the entire family continues to profit
on youtube i see you are too what
i did like is they say i see you i saw i see you and i was like wait are
they gonna use that to twist it so i see you are too
so we're i am not profiting yeah zero dollars
either of us fyi yeah is the comments
like that so you two are having dinner i'm like oh that means
steak yeah okay hope it's good everybody knows
if you're having dinner with i talked to my husband this morning i was like hey fyi
just so you don't find out online there's a thing going on okay you know you
weren't even aware of no but he's like oh that's why you went on vacation like
obviously because you're high didn't so apparently i i didn't know that but
the internet does so and you took your kids so that was like you brought my
kids yeah yeah what a good cover i know right yeah.
Oh, it's just funny. Bless their heart. But that is a mean thing to say.
When one becomes differentiated, you're going to know who you are without needing
others to tell you and grounded and not playing small and taking ownership of
things that you can't, that is a process of learning who you are. So you're grounded.
One of the greatest things there is if somebody is sitting there and they're
saying those things to you and when one is maybe not differentiated,
they want to defend and fight back and prove.
But if I know that those are not true, it's so powerful to be able to say,
hey tell me what your hope was there did you want me to like get really angry
or i'm because i'm not really sure i'm so cute do you want a hug
do you need a hug yeah because i think that's ultimately what it is you
and this is saying that about a stranger i would need a hug i
do think at the core if somebody is there at that
point they are now here's where kevin was so spot
on hurt people are hurting people and so they
want you to get mad so they can go yeah you you stink too and then
they get a little adrenaline pump and then they can drive along and go
to the next video and tell those people they suck too and because
the most hurt people the most emotionally mature don't know
they exist unless they're interacting with another human and they need that
in a way of saying i'm real i'm still breathing yeah which
is heartbreaking and that's why when i think often when somebody does
engage a little bit with somebody like that they thrive off
of it it's like oh man i'm getting a connection yeah
it's the whole no attention is worse than bad attention
and that's again it's like how do i know i exist and when
you're growing up and you're a kid then you will get attention
either be in the star student or the emo kid or
the one that shuts down that and that's
honestly sad or unfortunate so this is
interesting i've been discussing so i'm newly married who did
the ring ceremony i saw your wedding they seemed super cool yeah they knew what
they were doing for sure you did i did it was so fun it was really fun that
was that was a great wedding i need to send you the vows because i actually
just got the recording of it the fun thing is that tony me and my husband none
of us had any time to prepare because he took so long primping at the other not No.
Your husband the other one the other one with the shaved head.
Yes, there's no hair to do and it takes me like five minutes Anyway,
we don't know. No, it's we adore.
He's so sweet though. I love that guy. I just want to have Yeah,
for real because the first time I ever met him He is love he is a lovable fridge
you want to hug but it's interesting We've talked about this a little bit where
sometimes I've noticed that I something I've seen in myself as transitioning
into a new relationship a second marriage primates his first is I've noticed
that when if we aren't talking.
I really struggle I feel like in some ways something in me hurts even more than if we are fighting,
like, arguing, I don't want to say fighting, fighting can mean a lot of things,
but, like, disagreeing, it's the silence is more painful, and I was thinking
about that, and I was like, oh, I think that's, it's this feeling of,
wait, am I here, am I real?
Absolutely, Julie. And I think that's a common human experience to navigate of-
what is this bringing up for me from where what you know
is am I real am I am I secure when it's quiet that's
an anxious attachment and usually we partner up with a good old
avoidant and then we got this anxious avoidant loop and then we're the
goal is to become secure yes right and
so at that point even be able to express that hey are we good and if he says
we're good and then if I want to ask again five minutes later that's a me thing
yeah and now I need to learn to soothe or calm because if it's like okay I don't
feel like we're good now I'm back into that I feel it so I think it's true so
can you make me feel better but I'm not really sure what it's going to take
And you have no clue where to start, but go ahead.
But the interdependency is I take care of my own needs and I'm able to ask for
help taking care of my needs, which is can we just check in real quick?
Are we good? And you say yes, but then me trusting we're good because you said.
And then when you get the advanced levels of that is, man, I am so grateful
that we are good because now let me take you my train of thought.
When I sense a shift in body language or when I notice that you picked up your
phone quick, I'm telling myself the story because then we can dig into it.
And if he's like, man, tell me more about that.
Now we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human.
So this safe human has said that. And I'm like, okay, so I don't know,
my feelings about when my dad or whatever.
And now we get to blame our parents. And now we're back. It's,
can you see where that is good versus I don't, man, I don't want to say this
because I don't want them to think I'm crazy.
So then I'm managing their emotions and I'm not being open. I'm not letting them see me.
Yeah, I know. It's a lot. Yeah. Which is funny because that's honestly why I
just, I do like these comments and I know we're cracking wise and but there's
a reason why every behavior is a need-seeking behavior.
Every emotion is trying to tell us a story. And so, the person is wanting someone
to see them, which is what your whole thing is.
Sorry we twisted that, look, I see you. Yep. Manipulative.
No, but, and I am like, I am teasing a little, I guess there's part of me that
feels like, well, I have the right to a little bit because you're saying these things.
But in all reality, I think it's important to point out the craziness of online in part.
Just not to take life too seriously and people that don't actually know you probably,
it's a good idea to not put too much into their
advice yes however there is
something about as we actually pull this apart i'm getting really sad because
i'm like no i want i don't want them to feel like that yeah i don't want them
to want to say those mean things about people they don't know because actually
there's like a little kid inside hurting i don't mean that patronizing i've
been that person well we all have that that inner child and that is the way that we were Okay,
now let's get deeper. I love where this is gone, by the way.
Kevin Franke has been our muse and we appreciate that, Kevin,
because the interview was wonderful and I want everyone to watch that.
And I had all these- He gave away gold. He did. For me listening, I've learned so much.
And so now maybe what we're going to do is right now I've set this stage for
a part two because I actually had legitimate questions about other things like,
but I really like where we're going here because that inner child that are,
I love this concept of the, Our childhood adaptations,
the things that kept us alive as a kid, now are maladaptive as an adult.
So these, somebody that needs to tell somebody how bad they are,
like that is how they were seen as a kid.
It kept them alive. So you get to say, thank you, inner child.
This is the way that you, yep. And, but now let the big kid take over.
Oh, so good. The bus, driving the bus. Yeah. Do you use that analogy?
And you guys said it in Kevin's interview, even, and it was about the emotions,
being able to be on the bus. No, I taught you that. That's what you're remembering.
Okay yes yes and i've
been to therapy so i know that it was yes this
is an analogy that truly has helped me a lot though is the yes and
i love that thank you just took me a minute no this
is one of the for me one of
the most powerful ways i have been able
to deal with my own things from the past which
is i am driving the bus yeah but
also five-year-old julie is sitting in the seat in the bus or not the bus the
van i'm driving the van five-year-old julie sitting in the van 12-year-old julie
sitting in the van 22 year old city this little kid that thought this this teenager
thought this and so when i when people in the van have opinions about where
i should go which direction.
I don't just shut them up and not listen to them i'm
like oh okay i hear you i hear you three-year-old in a car seat yeah
but i'm also not going to expect a three-year-old to drive a van it's not
compassion and so as i did my own i've done a
lot of like inner child healing and reading a lot of books that really spoke to
me just this idea that we're not because i didn't
like the idea but i do feel these things and they feel strong and
it's like i gotta recognize them but being able to know i'm protecting the three-year-old
i'm not shutting up the three-year-old i'm protecting them by saying man i hear
you you're hot and you're hungry and you're scared that this trip will never
end because it feels like eternity only two minutes because you're three i get
that and I am aware of it and that's gonna help me.
I'm gonna take all your advice from all of you, okay, and then as the adult,
I'm going to drive the van where I think is the best place for all of us to
considering all of our feelings and opinions.
But I'm not gonna unstrap the three year old, put him in the fancy and say-
Yeah you should drive because that's not protecting the three that's not taking care
of the three-year-old isn't capable of that that's unfair and
now my job as an adult is i get to i get to take care of
these people and for me that that's really helped
me to not shame myself yeah about some
feelings that come up that sometimes feel very irrational because
they are not they're not level with
the most mature yeah and with the situation it's like
this tiny thing happens and it brings up these feelings of like
and as an adult I'm able to see this doesn't make
sense over this tiny thing that happened but I can stop
and say okay who's in the van who's hurting who's hot who's hungry
what's going on I hear you I see you now I'm
gonna make a decision and the adult has to be willing to put up or deal
with or make space for all the emotions and
be grounded okay not reactive can I
read something on here please okay this is not one of the quotes but
but yes before you do that can we end on one there's one
more feedback i want to end on it because yeah we'll
wrap it up too we went an hour julie oh my gosh i'm
so sorry and you're wait now why are you sorry why did
you feel the need to apologize tell me more about this okay here we go what
an incredible interview and such a change of pace from the headlines it's amazing
to see so much humanity and love coming through this heartbreaking situation
thank you both for bringing out the light in the dark and helping listeners
to see each other beyond what's on the surface i love this not just like it's okay hey,
people don't think the interview is incredible or that I'm a great host.
Like, that's beside the point.
But I just, the humanity and love coming through the heartbreaking situation.
That they can see the effort of trying to share light and good,
bringing out the light and the dark.
I don't care, really, my presentation style. Like, that's, it's fine.
It's okay if people don't like that. But I appreciate that people are...
Can pay attention to good and saying hey that rings true to me
too it's kind of the difference i feel like between being trying
to be a problem maker and a problem solver yeah yeah
i love the problem solver of even if they're like
oh that was so annoying the way she did that i hate oh i hate her hair like
oh great but that they can say even if they do they can say oh that one piece
of truth i'm gonna take that i'm gonna leave what i don't like but i'm gonna
take that for them it doesn't need to be about perfection or me or him or anything,
but just if this was helpful in some way, great.
We're all human. And that is mature. Somebody can not like my hair and think the message is okay.
That's fine. And that's okay. And it really is okay. It doesn't really impact
my life unless I... Okay.
Well, let me say this. This is a quote that I put on a recent podcast about
emotional immaturity, and it's from a book, a fiction book.
Did you ever read The Silent Patient by chance? No. It was brilliant.
But the author, Alex Michelaitis, then followed up with one called The Fury.
So, a fictional character talked about their therapist. So, again,
we're talking fictional character, fictional therapist, but it is one of the
most brilliant concepts I've ever heard.
He says, my therapist was called Mariana. I remember once she said something
chilling. It messed my head for a long time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.
She said, when we are young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens.
Time stops. It freezes at that moment. A version of us is trapped at that age forever.
A frightened child is hiding in your mind. It's still unsafe.
It's still unheard and unloved.
And the sooner you get in touch with that child and communicate with them
the more harmonious your life will be and here's the big part after all
that's what he grew you for isn't it a strong adult body to look after
him in his interest to take care of him and to protect him you
were meant to liberate him but instead you ended up becoming his jailer i
get the chill still your inner child didn't know how to protect itself or speak
up for itself it imprinted these emotions and said okay when you're an adult
you can heal this so go get them but then we become the adult we miss the message
so we still react as these immature,
reactive adults that are saying, hey, look at me.
This is the way I did it as a kid. And our own inner child is like,
what the? You're like big now.
Can't you be calm and curious? I thought the big kid had the answers.
But I love that. We were meant to liberate that inner child, not become its jailer.
A fair amount of wardens in the comments, apparently. And also some big kids
were showing up there too. Yeah, they were.
Julie Lee, how fun was this, huh? This is good. The band is back.
Thanks for, the band is back. Yeah. Thanks for, wait, hang on.
I don't know where this is going. The drummer's back. That thing you do?
Remember how they have more than, is that not a normal drum?
Just in that thing you do. Yeah, I don't know the reference.
Also, we're going on a cruise.
We are. We'll probably wear sunglasses there.
Okay, thank you so much, Julie. Thanks for having me. Hopefully I hit record.
That is all right. Man, can you imagine? Can you imagine?
Flying past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's one.
Music.