WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:22.800 Music. 00:00:22.643 --> 00:00:26.383 Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of fill in the blank with your podcast. 00:00:26.543 --> 00:00:29.783 I think this is going to run on love ADHD, possibly waking up to narcissism 00:00:29.783 --> 00:00:30.783 as well as a virtual couch. 00:00:31.363 --> 00:00:34.603 Regardless, I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:00:34.923 --> 00:00:39.023 And today's episode is a special one because I get to talk with one of my good 00:00:39.023 --> 00:00:43.083 friends, Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee. 00:00:43.343 --> 00:00:46.363 You may know Julie as my co-host on love ADHD. 00:00:46.363 --> 00:00:52.003 She was passing through Arizona, so we got her in studio, and she recently had 00:00:52.003 --> 00:00:53.703 a chance to interview Kevin Franke, 00:00:53.923 --> 00:00:59.183 the former husband of Ruby Franke, whose story has been widely covered in the 00:00:59.183 --> 00:01:03.023 Hulu documentary, The Devil and the Family, which I can't recommend enough. 00:01:03.203 --> 00:01:04.983 It's a lot, but it's so well done. 00:01:05.183 --> 00:01:08.303 You might expect that today's conversation would be about breaking down her 00:01:08.303 --> 00:01:13.663 interview with Kevin, and that was the goal. but what we ended up talking about, 00:01:13.763 --> 00:01:19.623 what struck me the most was the reaction that Julie received after her interview aired. 00:01:20.063 --> 00:01:25.783 And it was a lot of criticism, which is part of being a content creator, 00:01:26.003 --> 00:01:27.403 which sounds so pretentious. 00:01:27.723 --> 00:01:31.423 But the comments, the strangers on the internet who suddenly felt like they 00:01:31.423 --> 00:01:35.483 were very confident, very entitled to tell Julie who she should be, how she should show up, 00:01:35.703 --> 00:01:38.983 all the things that she was doing wrong, how she should have conducted herself 00:01:38.983 --> 00:01:43.683 and a lot of what Kevin should have done, despite the fact that if you have 00:01:43.683 --> 00:01:47.583 listened to my podcast for a while, I will maintain that no one knows what it 00:01:47.583 --> 00:01:49.623 feels like to be him or you or me. 00:01:50.083 --> 00:01:55.843 And so that is truly something else, adorable, precious, that you can tell someone 00:01:55.843 --> 00:01:58.823 else how they should have lived their life or how they should feel. 00:01:59.043 --> 00:02:03.383 We can be genuinely curious. We can also say to ourselves, man, 00:02:03.463 --> 00:02:05.183 I would imagine I would handle it differently. 00:02:05.443 --> 00:02:09.663 But when you can get past that, then you can actually be curious and take in 00:02:09.663 --> 00:02:13.783 the material and really try to understand what that must have been like. 00:02:13.883 --> 00:02:21.343 I think we have such a desire to find connection or a community or a purpose, 00:02:21.343 --> 00:02:24.863 and we want certainty and we want to understand and we want to know all of these 00:02:24.863 --> 00:02:27.823 things that are just, they're wired. They're part of our default. 00:02:28.443 --> 00:02:30.343 So at this 30,000 foot view. 00:02:31.169 --> 00:02:36.089 It's like we're saying, well, I'm a human and he's a human, so I'm sure we all 00:02:36.089 --> 00:02:39.649 do the same things. So he shouldn't have done that because I wouldn't do that. 00:02:40.129 --> 00:02:44.749 Let me be very dramatically clear that the last thing that I am trying to say 00:02:44.749 --> 00:02:48.209 is that it is not okay for someone to have their own opinion. 00:02:48.409 --> 00:02:52.809 As a matter of fact, I love the concept of everything that we interact with. It's our muse. 00:02:53.009 --> 00:02:57.109 It's a chance to take a look at what I am seeing or what I'm hearing and what 00:02:57.109 --> 00:02:59.489 does it bring up for me? Does it bring up some big emotions? 00:02:59.769 --> 00:03:02.569 Am I offended? Do I want justice in this moment? 00:03:02.809 --> 00:03:06.609 But if I find myself then just wanting to get rid of that discomfort by telling 00:03:06.609 --> 00:03:11.169 that person what they did was wrong, that is, in my opinion, 00:03:11.369 --> 00:03:14.989 a pretty emotionally immature way to react. I can have a reaction. 00:03:15.089 --> 00:03:19.389 I feel angry. I feel frustrated. I feel sad. 00:03:19.889 --> 00:03:23.609 But that is a me thing. Why is it that I feel angry or sad? Oh, 00:03:23.689 --> 00:03:28.849 it's because I really can't imagine what that was like for Kevin and Ruby's kids. 00:03:29.229 --> 00:03:33.889 Or I might find myself having a lot of empathy for Kevin, and I didn't even 00:03:33.889 --> 00:03:36.609 anticipate that that would be the case when I hear his story. 00:03:36.689 --> 00:03:40.769 Or I might have a lot of anger because that anger is a me thing, 00:03:40.909 --> 00:03:46.789 and hearing his story or even watching the interview with Kevin and Julie brings up some emotion. 00:03:46.969 --> 00:03:51.729 But that, again, is my chance to take a look at what is happening to me because 00:03:51.729 --> 00:03:54.889 of this interview, this person, this thing that I'm interacting with. 00:03:55.349 --> 00:04:00.889 What we'll talk about a lot in today's episode is what people do with that immediate 00:04:00.889 --> 00:04:03.449 reaction, because all of a sudden they have big feelings. 00:04:03.689 --> 00:04:07.189 And I think if we have never really learned what to do with those feelings, 00:04:07.389 --> 00:04:08.969 then we want to diffuse them. 00:04:09.109 --> 00:04:12.109 We want to put them over onto somebody else. And okay, I don't like the way 00:04:12.109 --> 00:04:15.589 I feel. So obviously he is doing what he is doing wrong. 00:04:15.889 --> 00:04:20.949 He is doing his life wrong, even though no one knows what it feels like to be someone else. 00:04:21.788 --> 00:04:26.208 So when you can recognize the big feelings, absolutely welcome them in. 00:04:26.388 --> 00:04:28.028 What are the stories that they are telling you? 00:04:28.768 --> 00:04:32.088 Maybe that story is, I would sure hope I would never do something like that. 00:04:32.188 --> 00:04:34.168 But if I'm being really honest, I have no idea. 00:04:34.368 --> 00:04:37.408 I've never been that person walking in their shoes. 00:04:37.968 --> 00:04:40.688 Julie is one of the kindest, most genuine people I know. 00:04:41.008 --> 00:04:44.548 It is really funny and you'll hear it in this interview. And if you have listened 00:04:44.548 --> 00:04:48.488 to any of the Love ADHD podcast, that it's kind of funny that Julie did not 00:04:48.488 --> 00:04:51.888 know that she had ADHD until later in life. 00:04:52.228 --> 00:04:56.148 You will see ADHD on full display by both Julie and me. 00:04:56.308 --> 00:05:00.008 But when I first started seeing some of the comments roll in that we'll talk 00:05:00.008 --> 00:05:02.588 about today, honestly, I felt all the feelings. 00:05:02.688 --> 00:05:06.348 My heart sank because I worried about Julie because it's one thing to create 00:05:06.348 --> 00:05:10.828 content and another to suddenly be on the receiving end of a tidal wave of opinions 00:05:10.828 --> 00:05:15.728 from people who don't know you, but they do feel something. And if I feel it, it must be true. 00:05:15.888 --> 00:05:19.248 It's one of the signs of emotional maturity that I think most of us do. 00:05:19.508 --> 00:05:20.288 I was going to say we all do. 00:05:20.568 --> 00:05:24.568 So then if I feel it, it must be true. And then we will typically slip into 00:05:24.568 --> 00:05:27.768 the, then I'm going to assume that these feelings must be factual. 00:05:28.268 --> 00:05:31.748 And that really is what fascinates me. I know I still do it as well, 00:05:31.948 --> 00:05:36.588 especially as I spend more time working with people and talking about emotional immaturity. 00:05:36.948 --> 00:05:42.108 And I believe very strongly that we are all emotionally immature until we're 00:05:42.108 --> 00:05:44.828 not. And then even then, it is a lifelong process. 00:05:45.368 --> 00:05:50.568 When we don't do our own work, our own mental health work, we will often confuse feeling with truth. 00:05:50.848 --> 00:05:53.808 So we feel something really strongly and so it must be true. 00:05:53.948 --> 00:05:58.168 So if I feel that Kevin is a weak husband, then he is weak. If I feel like Julie 00:05:58.168 --> 00:06:00.948 should have conducted herself differently, then she must have done it wrong. 00:06:01.128 --> 00:06:03.668 And in essence, now I'm saying, I feel that it must be true. 00:06:03.788 --> 00:06:08.548 Now I need you to prove to me that you are not doing the thing that I think 00:06:08.548 --> 00:06:12.108 you're doing, which you can already see that that game's a little bit rigged. 00:06:12.628 --> 00:06:15.928 And it is such a common pattern and emotionally immature responses, 00:06:16.588 --> 00:06:20.008 mistaking these emotions for reality, projecting that reality onto others and 00:06:20.008 --> 00:06:23.828 now saying, now start dancing and let's see if I believe what you're going to say. 00:06:24.608 --> 00:06:28.568 What you'll hear in this episode is Julie and me unpacking some of the comments 00:06:28.568 --> 00:06:30.688 together with a lot of humor and honesty. 00:06:30.888 --> 00:06:33.988 We talk about what it is like to navigate 00:06:33.988 --> 00:06:37.408 being on the receiving end of criticism and why people 00:06:37.408 --> 00:06:41.528 are quick to give unsolicited advice or past judgment and then how black and 00:06:41.528 --> 00:06:45.348 white thinking keeps us from this genuine curiosity and i really believe that's 00:06:45.348 --> 00:06:49.768 where we grow we read some of the youtube comments out loud we respond in real 00:06:49.768 --> 00:06:55.228 time and i think that makes for some definite laughs and there's some takeaways we also, 00:06:55.808 --> 00:06:59.968 dive into gaslighting trauma bonding and why leaving abusive situations is. 00:07:00.678 --> 00:07:04.578 Rarely as simple, if ever, as outsiders want to believe. 00:07:04.918 --> 00:07:07.798 And I love that Kevin talked about this in his interview with Julie. 00:07:08.058 --> 00:07:11.458 I call it whole object relations, how somebody can feel anger, 00:07:11.658 --> 00:07:15.618 grief, gratitude, and love, and sadness, and frustration all at one time. 00:07:15.738 --> 00:07:18.538 That is the beginnings of emotional maturity. 00:07:19.078 --> 00:07:22.818 Also, we talk about why hurt people so often end up hurting people, 00:07:22.838 --> 00:07:27.998 and how online comments can reveal more about the commenter's inner world than 00:07:27.998 --> 00:07:29.718 even about the person that they're critiquing. 00:07:30.158 --> 00:07:34.178 And then we handle a little bit about projection and shame and black and white 00:07:34.178 --> 00:07:36.218 thinking when you see it, whether it's in your relationships, 00:07:36.398 --> 00:07:39.298 your family, or the comment section of YouTube. 00:07:39.878 --> 00:07:43.538 And Julie and I also talk about the cruise that we're co-hosting this January. 00:07:43.738 --> 00:07:44.998 We would love to see you there. 00:07:45.438 --> 00:07:48.818 The link will be in the show notes. If you'd like to keep up with me with other 00:07:48.818 --> 00:07:53.238 things, please follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch and TikTok at virtualcouch 00:07:53.238 --> 00:07:55.838 and head to tonyoverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter. 00:07:56.598 --> 00:07:59.558 Those are starting to get out with more regularity. And that is the best way 00:07:59.558 --> 00:08:00.758 to hear about upcoming courses, 00:08:01.018 --> 00:08:03.998 events, groups, including my Path Back Online recovery group, 00:08:04.158 --> 00:08:05.758 my men's emotional architects group, 00:08:05.978 --> 00:08:09.218 my private women's Facebook group for those navigating relationships with emotionally 00:08:09.218 --> 00:08:13.858 immature or narcissistic individuals or people with strong narcissistic traits, 00:08:14.078 --> 00:08:18.178 whether that is a spouse, a parent, a boss, a sibling, a religious leader. 00:08:18.498 --> 00:08:23.178 And I will maintain a cat because the majority of cats that I have met do in 00:08:23.178 --> 00:08:28.058 fact exhibit very strong narcissistic traits bordering, dare I say, on psychopathy. 00:08:28.318 --> 00:08:32.218 So whether you came here curious about Kevin Franke or interested in Julie's 00:08:32.218 --> 00:08:35.198 experience, or you just want to learn a little bit more about emotional maturity 00:08:35.198 --> 00:08:39.158 and action, this episode has a little bit of everything, some hard truths, 00:08:39.638 --> 00:08:44.738 I think some good laughs and some insight on, I think, why people say the things that they do. 00:08:45.158 --> 00:08:48.758 And what do we even do with that? I am so grateful that Julie was willing to 00:08:48.758 --> 00:08:50.918 sit down and to have this conversation, let's get right to it. 00:08:51.578 --> 00:08:54.878 And honestly, one of my dreams, I think, but I know, first of all, 00:08:54.938 --> 00:08:57.418 I want to say, hey, welcome to the deep end of the internet, 00:08:57.738 --> 00:08:59.058 right, Julie? Are you starting? Yeah, we're starting. 00:08:59.338 --> 00:09:01.578 Okay, great. Julie DeJesus. Are you used to it yet? 00:09:02.308 --> 00:09:04.968 But I love it. Whenever I say it or realize, I'm like, oh, yeah, 00:09:05.068 --> 00:09:08.628 I just love my new last name a lot. Do you take offense when people still refer to you as Julie Lee? 00:09:09.408 --> 00:09:13.048 So much offense. I can tell. No, zero offense. I literally, as you're coming 00:09:13.048 --> 00:09:15.928 here, I just changed it in my sister's phone because it still comes up as Julie Lee. 00:09:16.008 --> 00:09:19.888 And so now it has DeJesus in my phone. I love that. Did it have the updated picture too? 00:09:20.448 --> 00:09:23.788 That's amazing. This is meant to be. Let's talk about our cruise because I'm 00:09:23.788 --> 00:09:27.268 pumped. I'm pumped. I didn't realize this shows how much I'm not paying attention. 00:09:27.488 --> 00:09:31.068 I came and apologized to you for not really promoting it as much as I could. 00:09:31.208 --> 00:09:34.568 And I just assumed you were out there, pounding the pavement, getting the word out. 00:09:34.848 --> 00:09:39.268 Nor to nor knocking. But I think you said, what percentage of A-ing it were 00:09:39.268 --> 00:09:41.488 you doing? Half. Half. And I said, I'm a fifth. 00:09:41.928 --> 00:09:45.588 I'm like a half of one cheek. The people that really care are signing up. Yeah, they are. 00:09:45.788 --> 00:09:48.328 I appreciate it. There's still plenty of time. It's the end of January. 00:09:48.328 --> 00:09:51.128 Yes, there's still spots. Flying and not swimming. We're on a boat. 00:09:51.768 --> 00:09:54.448 Cruising. Cruising out of Galveston, Texas. Correct. 00:09:54.808 --> 00:09:58.228 January 26th. Fourth. Fourth. fourth but the 00:09:58.228 --> 00:10:01.208 we will be on the boat on the 26th coming 00:10:01.208 --> 00:10:04.208 for sure i was saying the 26th is a really i mean that's an important part 00:10:04.208 --> 00:10:07.808 of it yeah day absolutely it's midweek it's mid-cruise 00:10:07.808 --> 00:10:10.908 yeah it's the most important day it is probably one of our creative workshops is 00:10:10.908 --> 00:10:14.068 on that day yeah so we're gonna do creative workshops dinner i'm super 00:10:14.068 --> 00:10:16.828 excited because some of the people that i do know they're coming and i 00:10:16.828 --> 00:10:19.648 i'm gonna sound egotistical but i'll say you might 00:10:19.648 --> 00:10:22.428 even get to eat dinner with me and it's my own family yeah 00:10:22.428 --> 00:10:25.508 they're saying i think we'll pass like i 00:10:25.508 --> 00:10:28.208 think we will find another place for dinner right yeah that is 00:10:28.208 --> 00:10:31.968 what's nice about the cruise though is because yes we 00:10:31.968 --> 00:10:34.688 have these couple workshops i think when it gets closer we 00:10:34.688 --> 00:10:37.308 might even send out an email about some possible excursions if we want to 00:10:37.308 --> 00:10:40.008 do them all together which would be sweet but what's nice is really like the rest of 00:10:40.008 --> 00:10:43.048 the time you can just cruise with your family and royal caribbean's doing kids 00:10:43.048 --> 00:10:46.548 sale free which i did not know when we started this i'm pretty stoked about 00:10:46.548 --> 00:10:49.828 that because then people can come with their families and just have a fun vacation 00:10:49.828 --> 00:10:53.308 hopefully a discounted rate because we got it all in bulk room but then we can 00:10:53.308 --> 00:10:56.388 talk mental health stuff and have a good time And this is what I've been saying 00:10:56.388 --> 00:11:00.988 when I've been talking about it or the advertising it is I 100% if you find me on that boat, 00:11:01.368 --> 00:11:04.808 ask me anything, your marriage questions, your ADHD. 00:11:05.388 --> 00:11:09.468 Anxiety, depression, narcissism, emotional maturity. I love this stuff. I do. 00:11:09.708 --> 00:11:14.088 That's what's awesome. No, you really do. You're not like you don't go run into your cabin and hide. 00:11:14.448 --> 00:11:17.248 Let's talk. I think they'll have to be. So there could be more boundaries. 00:11:17.488 --> 00:11:20.008 Right. Can you get off the table, please? He is the right person to me and get 00:11:20.008 --> 00:11:23.528 free therapy. I think I said in one of the ads, man, if you find me with soft 00:11:23.528 --> 00:11:25.948 serve ice cream in hand And then I said, okay, I probably won't be carrying 00:11:25.948 --> 00:11:27.008 it around in hand. I'll have it in a bowl. 00:11:27.308 --> 00:11:30.688 Or in the cones. A cone. And then ask me anything, please. 00:11:31.068 --> 00:11:33.148 So that'd be fun. And I don't know what our workshops are yet, 00:11:33.268 --> 00:11:34.588 but those will be fun. You'll know. 00:11:34.728 --> 00:11:37.848 We're going to talk all about mental health and thriving and stuff and resilience 00:11:37.848 --> 00:11:40.548 and all that. So you're going to have good stuff to add to that. I'm excited. 00:11:40.768 --> 00:11:44.128 Okay. So there's a link in all the show notes all the time. Come sign up. 00:11:44.148 --> 00:11:46.508 We're both going to put more effort. 00:11:46.688 --> 00:11:50.728 I was going to say A's into the promoting it. Right? We're excited. Yeah. Okay. 00:11:51.028 --> 00:11:54.168 Is Love ADHD going to come back? I've been asked this a number of times. 00:11:54.168 --> 00:11:57.468 That's such a question and that is TBD. 00:11:57.688 --> 00:11:59.328 Yeah. Why did it disappear, Julie? 00:12:00.184 --> 00:12:02.964 Wow we both have adhd it got so funny though 00:12:02.964 --> 00:12:05.804 it was so fun though and it was but then every 00:12:05.804 --> 00:12:08.724 time someone this is the problem is everyone some time someone talks to 00:12:08.724 --> 00:12:11.384 me and is like i love this i binged it i just i'm like 00:12:11.384 --> 00:12:14.144 we gotta do this but you and i both have other 00:12:14.144 --> 00:12:17.104 ventures that also pay our bills and so it's 00:12:17.104 --> 00:12:21.464 a little bit tricky but i love it yeah it will come back so much yes it will 00:12:21.464 --> 00:12:25.144 come back that's what you just said it will come back it will but today we are 00:12:25.144 --> 00:12:29.844 here to talk about the interview you did with kevin frankie yes first i am curious 00:12:29.844 --> 00:12:33.864 and we'll get to the fun stuff i was gonna say when we first hit record i would 00:12:33.864 --> 00:12:35.904 love to just go through the youtube comments and then. 00:12:36.304 --> 00:12:39.204 React to them as a therapist no i want to can 00:12:39.204 --> 00:12:42.364 we please yeah i actually wanted to do a little at some 00:12:42.364 --> 00:12:45.124 point i want to you know how they do unlike jimmy fallon how you just read them with a straight 00:12:45.124 --> 00:12:48.084 face how did you score the interview and 00:12:48.084 --> 00:12:50.944 i loved what you talked about what is the name of the documentary i watched 00:12:50.944 --> 00:12:54.064 it immediately yeah it's called devil in the family the 00:12:54.064 --> 00:12:57.524 fall of ruby frankie and he said it was the most watched documentary 00:12:57.524 --> 00:13:00.384 ever and it was so good it really did a 00:13:00.384 --> 00:13:03.304 really good job and he even kevin feels 00:13:03.304 --> 00:13:06.264 like they did a really good job and it's not like he's 00:13:06.264 --> 00:13:10.444 painted as a perfect person on it he's been very i've been really impressed 00:13:10.444 --> 00:13:16.344 with his just ownership of whoa mistakes were made and whoa i would do things 00:13:16.344 --> 00:13:20.244 differently and also just really honest with the level of gaslighting and brainwashing 00:13:20.244 --> 00:13:23.584 and just noticing something by chad the other day I was watching an interview by him. 00:13:23.724 --> 00:13:27.544 Chad's his oldest son. The oldest son, yeah. Who has quite a big following online. 00:13:27.884 --> 00:13:31.584 And I know that Chad and... Sherry. Sherry, thank you. Which I did read her 00:13:31.584 --> 00:13:32.584 book. It really was amazing. 00:13:32.724 --> 00:13:34.804 I heard it was phenomenal. I actually reached out to her. Sherry, 00:13:34.884 --> 00:13:35.924 if you ever watched this. 00:13:36.224 --> 00:13:39.684 And said, I'd love to have you on the virtual couch. But at that point, it just went nuts. 00:13:39.864 --> 00:13:43.424 But it was such a good book. I haven't read the book yet, but I've heard such good things. 00:13:43.504 --> 00:13:46.284 But I've just been really impressed as I've listened to some of their interviews 00:13:46.284 --> 00:13:48.444 and them describe it. I feel like... 00:13:49.102 --> 00:13:57.222 I've seen both of them be compassionate towards Kevin for his situation and also say what's true. 00:13:57.502 --> 00:14:00.382 And also, I've seen Kevin be so proud of them. 00:14:00.482 --> 00:14:03.522 And I just think that has been a really cool thing to see. Not always common 00:14:03.522 --> 00:14:05.422 in our world today. People want things to be black and white. 00:14:05.442 --> 00:14:08.402 But I've seen some really neat understanding just from afar. 00:14:08.542 --> 00:14:10.562 The way Kevin speaks of his children, he's really proud of them. 00:14:10.702 --> 00:14:13.562 Kevin talked about something that I call whole object relations, 00:14:13.802 --> 00:14:17.362 which is the ability to have multiple emotions in one thing. 00:14:17.542 --> 00:14:21.462 Didn't you love that part? Yeah, it was so good because he can be angry and 00:14:21.462 --> 00:14:24.862 sad and frustrated and grateful all at once. 00:14:24.982 --> 00:14:27.182 And that's what so many of the YouTube comments are about. Exactly. 00:14:27.442 --> 00:14:30.662 And even things attacking me is like, how can you have this person on that was 00:14:30.662 --> 00:14:32.182 involved with someone that did this? 00:14:32.302 --> 00:14:34.882 Or how can you say you loved her? And I don't know about you, 00:14:34.962 --> 00:14:38.302 when I watched the documentary, I was so touched at that part where he says, 00:14:38.562 --> 00:14:40.982 this is the person. I was in the hospital room. This is the person. 00:14:41.142 --> 00:14:44.522 And I just thought, this is real life. This is what it's really like to be in 00:14:44.522 --> 00:14:48.362 a relationship with someone who starts to go down a path you don't agree on. 00:14:48.362 --> 00:14:50.982 But it's not all at once, like the frog in the water. 00:14:51.322 --> 00:14:55.342 So it's a little at a time. Very little. And over years, that's the thing. Years and years. 00:14:55.622 --> 00:15:01.102 And the brain craves certainty so much. So we're giving people the consistent benefit of the doubt. 00:15:01.302 --> 00:15:05.322 We're making it about us. Maybe I need to do something different or all that. 00:15:05.322 --> 00:15:06.942 I don't want them to think this. 00:15:07.022 --> 00:15:09.862 I'm not going to bring this up. And you do that over and over again. 00:15:10.022 --> 00:15:13.022 And over time, it just is. And I think that's what's fascinating. 00:15:13.422 --> 00:15:16.762 Now, one of the things I also want to do, I have the transcript and I should 00:15:16.762 --> 00:15:20.882 have highlighted places, but there were several places where my good friend 00:15:20.882 --> 00:15:24.602 Julie Lee or Julie DeJesus mentioned things and I'm like, oh, 00:15:24.662 --> 00:15:27.322 here she goes. She's about to say, oh, I learned these things from my friend Tony. 00:15:28.154 --> 00:15:31.614 Do you know of any of those things? You talked about, hey, we're all a unique combination. 00:15:31.834 --> 00:15:33.834 And you got a couple of them, right? Nature, nurture, birth order, 00:15:33.954 --> 00:15:36.974 DNA, abandonment, rejection, hope, spheres. I did not first hear that from you. 00:15:37.014 --> 00:15:38.914 Oh, yes, you did, my friend. That is my spiel. 00:15:39.054 --> 00:15:41.154 I've got a t-shirt that says all those things, as a matter of fact. 00:15:41.654 --> 00:15:44.794 And I even thought about- You came up with that? Yes. Not my therapist when 00:15:44.794 --> 00:15:48.134 I first got into therapy. No. When we'd never met. No. It was all from you? Yes. 00:15:48.834 --> 00:15:51.574 I mean, the whole speech of them. The whole speech of them. There was. 00:15:51.794 --> 00:15:54.014 And talking about getting out of discomfort, radical acceptance, 00:15:54.214 --> 00:15:55.074 psychological flexibility. 00:15:55.314 --> 00:15:57.994 And I kept going, here she goes. she's about to throw me a little 00:15:57.994 --> 00:16:00.774 little bone here nope she's like and as 00:16:00.774 --> 00:16:03.634 i've always thought all by myself and came up with on my own 00:16:03.634 --> 00:16:06.554 i've done my own research right but i'm 00:16:06.554 --> 00:16:10.854 not bitter i feel safe blink twice no that 00:16:10.854 --> 00:16:13.674 was my immaturity and i'm being honest the super funny part about that is 00:16:13.674 --> 00:16:16.354 i remember i had a one of the first years i was 00:16:16.354 --> 00:16:19.154 a therapist in my early 30s so just you know a few years ago 00:16:19.154 --> 00:16:22.814 um insert laughter sorry i 00:16:22.814 --> 00:16:26.674 zoned out for a second because i think this is a fake nail that's on my leg 00:16:26.674 --> 00:16:30.474 and it's sparkling black is that one of your clients probably yeah sitting and 00:16:30.474 --> 00:16:33.754 fiddling with it okay what is this so i'm so sorry no you've been in therapy 00:16:33.754 --> 00:16:38.274 30 years no it was quite the opposite of that i was saying in my early 30s a 00:16:38.274 --> 00:16:42.094 few years ago oh okay anyway yeah 00:16:42.514 --> 00:16:45.854 now i can't remember the joke i was gonna make dang it no wonder oh it was there 00:16:45.854 --> 00:16:48.574 was okay a real of that part right here and with the question of why have you 00:16:48.574 --> 00:16:49.854 guys why are you guys gonna do the. 00:16:51.074 --> 00:16:53.834 This is the answer okay but there was i still 00:16:53.834 --> 00:16:56.714 remember the kid there was a kid and he was in his 00:16:56.714 --> 00:17:00.774 teenage years i was a brand new therapist and i still remember him and he said 00:17:00.774 --> 00:17:04.094 nobody likes to be showed on and i thought loved it so i started saying that 00:17:04.094 --> 00:17:07.154 is you yeah well what's funny is i know that it's this other guy and i'll hear 00:17:07.154 --> 00:17:11.114 other people say it and now i'll say how dare they i'll hear somebody like i 00:17:11.114 --> 00:17:14.194 don't know oprah winfrey or brenne brown i'm like do they listen to my stuff 00:17:14.194 --> 00:17:15.714 i mean that's how egotistical i can be, 00:17:16.290 --> 00:17:19.210 100 it's fascinating but i even i know who told 00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:22.090 me that but i'm not gonna say it out loud because i don't want them to have the credit no 00:17:22.090 --> 00:17:25.170 i said it first okay we can read the youtube comments 00:17:25.170 --> 00:17:27.930 but how did you score the interview because when you 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:31.510 texted me i remember and i just was like wait what you're like 00:17:31.510 --> 00:17:34.390 oh guess who i'm interviewing and then the funniest part was then i 00:17:34.390 --> 00:17:37.150 completely forgot someone that would care i did and i did and then 00:17:37.150 --> 00:17:39.850 there were some people that are like not knowing how to react i was like tony okay i know 00:17:39.850 --> 00:17:42.550 that i texted you about wanting to connect kevin at 00:17:42.550 --> 00:17:45.610 some point because a lot of the people that i work with are trauma 00:17:45.610 --> 00:17:48.410 bonded to a narcissistic person and that's 00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:51.370 that intermittent reinforcement the person that gives you the punishment also delivers the 00:17:51.370 --> 00:17:56.470 reward and kevin has lived it i have guys right now that have honestly said 00:17:56.470 --> 00:18:00.630 before you interviewed him that if there was anybody that would really understand 00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:04.110 it would be a guy like kevin frankie for real and that's why i want him to know 00:18:04.110 --> 00:18:08.530 that yeah because i see him and in the comments we'll talk about that and you 00:18:08.530 --> 00:18:10.990 literally are working with men who have been in constantly. 00:18:11.630 --> 00:18:14.870 And i've sent your interview with kevin and 00:18:14.870 --> 00:18:17.630 when he when he talks about the you can't tell him two plus two 00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:21.190 is four could you tell i was like bawling through that whole i 00:18:21.190 --> 00:18:24.750 don't know what about two plus two that just brings up so many feelings for 00:18:24.750 --> 00:18:27.450 me having well because everybody else is telling them come on man you know it's 00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:31.390 four right and then even if they're like ah and the advice he gives of how to 00:18:31.390 --> 00:18:34.490 help someone get out of it was just so that's the part that when i read the 00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:38.490 comments as a person a therapist now 20 years and of working with narcissistic 00:18:38.490 --> 00:18:40.170 and emotionally immature relationships, 00:18:40.730 --> 00:18:44.810 the trauma bond is a very consistent piece of that, whether it's intense like 00:18:44.810 --> 00:18:46.750 Kevin's, where he's willing to. 00:18:47.456 --> 00:18:51.416 Be separated from his kids for a year which no one will understand no one will 00:18:51.416 --> 00:18:54.936 understand unless they've been in his exact situation even then you can't even 00:18:54.936 --> 00:18:57.976 understand and when i'm talking with my clients it's not that i don't think 00:18:57.976 --> 00:19:02.236 like you know this is crazy right i'm a human but then i also know that has 00:19:02.236 --> 00:19:05.196 worked so far zero percent of times and helping somebody out of a trauma bond, 00:19:05.656 --> 00:19:08.016 it's just like when you're working with somebody and they have hallucinations 00:19:08.016 --> 00:19:10.676 so they hear voices the first thing you do is you don't say oh no you don't 00:19:10.676 --> 00:19:13.476 it's like tell me about that you know what is that like approach with curiosity 00:19:13.476 --> 00:19:18.676 so anyway how did you get the interview so it's actually I think it's really cool. 00:19:19.076 --> 00:19:24.636 Had a mutual friend who was friends with Kevin long before any of this happened, 00:19:24.796 --> 00:19:28.096 hadn't heard from him in a while, and had just reached out to me saying, 00:19:28.216 --> 00:19:33.176 hey, I feel like I can't imagine that what he's been through the last couple 00:19:33.176 --> 00:19:35.356 years, and I'm in contact with him now. 00:19:35.476 --> 00:19:38.936 And I'd love for him to be able to go to dinner with some of us that I know 00:19:38.936 --> 00:19:40.796 would be safe people for him. 00:19:40.876 --> 00:19:44.336 And so I was honored that they just asked me, hey, how would you feel about 00:19:44.336 --> 00:19:47.596 this? And I was like, yeah, but I did. I hadn't watched the documentary. 00:19:47.956 --> 00:19:53.336 And then I did before going to dinner with him, which was fine. 00:19:53.336 --> 00:19:56.716 Either way, I assume that he walks in and thinks everybody's seen it. 00:19:56.856 --> 00:19:59.296 But I don't know. So it's this whole awkward thing of do I play dumb and just 00:19:59.296 --> 00:20:02.316 be like, oh, hi, what's your name? Because I wouldn't have recognized him if 00:20:02.316 --> 00:20:03.516 I had not watched the documentary before. 00:20:03.856 --> 00:20:07.076 Because when that all went down, it actually was in my hometown, 00:20:07.076 --> 00:20:08.816 really close to where I lived. 00:20:09.276 --> 00:20:11.756 I remember I had an aunt from the East Coast text me and say, 00:20:11.836 --> 00:20:12.596 hey, have you heard about this? 00:20:12.596 --> 00:20:17.176 Almost saying which your influencer crowd in utah look at this you know and 00:20:17.176 --> 00:20:20.016 at the time i was like i don't want to hear about that but just i was going 00:20:20.016 --> 00:20:23.996 through my own stuff i didn't want to just really consume a lot of things that 00:20:23.996 --> 00:20:27.596 felt negative and so it had been a couple years since that happened and yeah 00:20:27.596 --> 00:20:32.416 so we just went to dinner my husband and i with a few friends and met him there 00:20:32.776 --> 00:20:35.936 and it wasn't even about him it was just about some friends getting together 00:20:35.936 --> 00:20:38.076 and inviting him into a group that we already had. 00:20:38.756 --> 00:20:42.436 And I just, he sat across from me and I just instantly felt. 00:20:43.414 --> 00:20:47.174 I wanted to learn so much from him. I had so much to learn from him. 00:20:47.374 --> 00:20:51.714 And my husband and I both were really impressed with him. And my husband's never seen the documentary. 00:20:51.854 --> 00:20:55.254 I am glad I watched it. But also, I don't know that my interactions with him 00:20:55.254 --> 00:20:57.154 would have been that different had I not. 00:20:57.674 --> 00:21:00.994 Everybody we meet every day has stuff we don't know about. His just happens to be public. 00:21:01.394 --> 00:21:03.954 And so, I don't think it really changes how I interact with him. 00:21:04.154 --> 00:21:06.574 Can I ask a very vulnerable question of you and then you'll see where I'm going with this? 00:21:06.694 --> 00:21:11.794 I like what you said that he can walk in and probably would assume that there 00:21:11.794 --> 00:21:13.934 are a lot of people that would recognize him. Yeah. I haven't asked him that. 00:21:14.394 --> 00:21:19.154 Because I've had a handful of people that have had some level of pretty big fame or notoriety. 00:21:19.294 --> 00:21:22.494 And we've talked about this and because that's a thing, it's a tangible feeling 00:21:22.494 --> 00:21:25.254 with even you being out there and having video. 00:21:25.694 --> 00:21:29.674 And do you ever, you get recognized because you've told me about that. I mean, and I have too. 00:21:29.774 --> 00:21:31.934 That's why I'm saying it's very vulnerable because it's going to sound egotistical, 00:21:32.074 --> 00:21:36.294 but I'm just saying it's fascinating because all it takes is a couple of times like that. 00:21:36.494 --> 00:21:40.154 And I know you kind of think maybe somebody around here does, right? 00:21:40.434 --> 00:21:43.554 There is a weird thing where I've gotten recognized a couple times. 00:21:43.754 --> 00:21:45.994 And then there's this weird thing where your brain's like, oh, 00:21:46.074 --> 00:21:48.774 everyone knows who I am. And you're like, what do I do with this? 00:21:48.854 --> 00:21:52.814 And you're not that, but because the few people that do, all of a sudden you're 00:21:52.814 --> 00:21:54.594 like, wait, am I picking my nose? 00:21:54.714 --> 00:21:57.754 And it's this funny thing, but it's very stressful because I feel like I need 00:21:57.754 --> 00:22:01.714 to be like a perfect human being that has answers. 00:22:01.854 --> 00:22:06.234 I'm a mess a lot of the time as we all are, but it is funny how it just takes 00:22:06.234 --> 00:22:08.794 a couple of times and you're like, does everybody know me? 00:22:08.934 --> 00:22:11.414 And like, no one's heard of you. And that's what I love. So that's why I said 00:22:11.414 --> 00:22:14.674 it's very vulnerable because, and we've been, we moved here to Arizona. 00:22:14.974 --> 00:22:18.254 It's been a year and a half ago. And it was maybe the second week that we were 00:22:18.254 --> 00:22:19.814 here and we're at a softball game. 00:22:19.954 --> 00:22:23.534 Somebody recognized me and I'm sitting there with my wife and two of my daughters. 00:22:23.874 --> 00:22:28.894 And so then of course that sets the table. And I got recognized in the Phoenix airport early on. 00:22:28.974 --> 00:22:32.454 And it's kind of like not since, but you'd get those two early and all of a 00:22:32.454 --> 00:22:35.314 sudden I'm walking around the mall and I'm like, I don't know. You can't go anywhere. 00:22:35.814 --> 00:22:39.474 Are there cameras in the bushes? Like, I don't know. And I'll joke with my wife 00:22:39.474 --> 00:22:41.554 when we're heading out. I'm like, I forgot a Sharpie. 00:22:42.316 --> 00:22:45.756 Like, I don't want to let the people down. Come on. I don't think she thinks it's very funny. 00:22:45.916 --> 00:22:52.336 But so I can't, I go back to, but I cannot imagine actually thinking that people, 00:22:52.516 --> 00:22:55.276 that the majority of people, if you have a Hulu documentary. 00:22:55.556 --> 00:22:58.396 Yeah. He actually is recognized probably a lot. Yeah. 00:22:58.536 --> 00:23:03.856 Perhaps you've seen me on my stint on the Deep Cable BYU channel where I talk for five minutes. 00:23:03.976 --> 00:23:06.656 My three minutes on Good Things Utah, right? 00:23:08.116 --> 00:23:11.296 Like four years ago, I'm like, I was on the news. so 00:23:11.296 --> 00:23:15.456 they're like oh we can't find you anywhere we giggle you nowhere no like it's 00:23:15.456 --> 00:23:19.216 there okay no i don't want to make you feel bad julie but last night i'm sitting 00:23:19.216 --> 00:23:22.276 there thinking okay i'm gonna i'm gonna finish i'm gonna listen to this thing 00:23:22.276 --> 00:23:25.276 again on the way home from the airport last night and i pull up interview i 00:23:25.276 --> 00:23:28.676 did with kevin so i pull youtube and i'm like kevin frankie it's all i do, 00:23:29.576 --> 00:23:32.996 i just feel like i know exactly what you're about to say because that's 00:23:32.996 --> 00:23:36.096 happened to me too it's so crazy i thought okay your 00:23:36.096 --> 00:23:39.396 interview with him is brand new and it's fresh and it's hot and 00:23:39.396 --> 00:23:42.736 i'm like just i'm and i'm driving immediately kind of like kevin 00:23:42.736 --> 00:23:46.396 frankie next to be one of these scroll no scroll 00:23:46.396 --> 00:23:50.116 and then i'm like kevin frankie j u l 00:23:50.116 --> 00:23:52.936 i e no but eventually 00:23:52.936 --> 00:23:55.996 it came up it did oh and i is that 00:23:55.996 --> 00:24:03.156 hurt your feelings no because truly it's truly it's not about me wait but some 00:24:03.156 --> 00:24:08.456 people i just wish more positive things were noticed because there is so much 00:24:08.456 --> 00:24:12.276 about him out there and And it is so insane and mean and so much of it is not 00:24:12.276 --> 00:24:14.136 even factual that I'm like, 00:24:14.216 --> 00:24:17.536 it's just unfortunate that that's what makes the news. But no, it's not about me. 00:24:17.616 --> 00:24:22.236 I just hope the people that it is helpful to, I just hope people will listen 00:24:22.236 --> 00:24:24.796 to it. Look, it comes up very first now. 00:24:26.544 --> 00:24:28.804 Should we read some of the comments? Let's do this. Okay, this is going to be 00:24:28.804 --> 00:24:30.504 fun. I'm reading though. You read them. Okay. 00:24:30.864 --> 00:24:34.264 And I will give you a final say on edits. That's what I was going to say. Do I say swears? 00:24:34.504 --> 00:24:38.184 Julie, read your YouTube comments. I'm not going to read the mean things about Kevin as much. Okay. 00:24:38.364 --> 00:24:40.824 And I can tackle some of those, honestly, not from a mean place, 00:24:40.884 --> 00:24:45.084 but from a emotionally immature people commenting place. Okay. Then let's do it. Okay. 00:24:45.404 --> 00:24:50.704 You don't just abandon your kids for over a year, even if your therapist tells you to. 00:24:51.144 --> 00:24:53.724 Okay. Yeah. I'll read the ones and diagnose people. Okay. Okay. 00:24:54.104 --> 00:24:56.304 So am I skipping these? Yeah. Do you want to read the ones about you? 00:24:56.544 --> 00:24:59.444 Is my favorite i just want to also it's insane to compare 00:24:59.444 --> 00:25:02.304 your wife being in prison with someone losing their sister to cancer 00:25:02.304 --> 00:25:05.864 these aren't the same thing they're not even the same universe okay 00:25:05.864 --> 00:25:08.884 now first of all were you aware that those weren't the same things i 00:25:08.884 --> 00:25:11.544 mean literally yeah they're not the exact same no 00:25:11.544 --> 00:25:14.524 i always love that we actually do literally live in the same universe yeah 00:25:14.524 --> 00:25:17.544 maybe not that person but anyway but talk about the context is 00:25:17.544 --> 00:25:20.544 what matters they listened this person did listen to the interview talk 00:25:20.544 --> 00:25:23.624 about what the context of because i thought that was beautiful and 00:25:23.624 --> 00:25:26.504 when you were talking about your sister absolutely what's interesting is 00:25:26.504 --> 00:25:29.304 i was trying to be careful as a host you don't want to make it 00:25:29.304 --> 00:25:32.004 all about you just i would assume as a therapist i know what 00:25:32.004 --> 00:25:34.804 it's like to be a therapist it's the same right no i just kidding no but you're 00:25:34.804 --> 00:25:37.564 absolutely correct you want it but there actually is quite a bit in here about 00:25:37.564 --> 00:25:41.604 how i made things too much about me yeah and for me 00:25:41.604 --> 00:25:44.744 there was a moment where it's more of a conversational style 00:25:44.744 --> 00:25:47.484 where he has come to a lot 00:25:47.484 --> 00:25:50.604 of truths that my sister as 00:25:50.604 --> 00:25:53.644 she was dying with cancer came to and i think that's a neat correlation 00:25:53.644 --> 00:25:56.844 to recognize of when everything is stripped away that 00:25:56.844 --> 00:26:02.064 and you don't have like needing the validation of other people is not really 00:26:02.064 --> 00:26:08.384 going to fix this like it's so big it's so unfixable by just common coping whatever 00:26:08.384 --> 00:26:14.404 the same truths are realized in lots of work yes meditation yes and thinking 00:26:14.404 --> 00:26:16.264 and prayer or whatever that looks like for people. 00:26:17.004 --> 00:26:19.984 For me as a traveler in life that's something i want to pay attention to because 00:26:19.984 --> 00:26:25.384 i'm like okay i can do that now without having to go there to get it yeah so that's what it was about, 00:26:26.058 --> 00:26:28.798 was that she was she said a lot of the same things he was saying 00:26:28.798 --> 00:26:31.878 when he was at his lowest yeah which that was beautiful 00:26:31.878 --> 00:26:34.558 because and you guys talked about this was it so were 00:26:34.558 --> 00:26:37.518 you saying that grief is a language is that what it was he said that yeah which 00:26:37.518 --> 00:26:40.878 is i love that gang chills here too because you 00:26:40.878 --> 00:26:43.678 probably think that you came up with this but i always say you don't 00:26:43.678 --> 00:26:46.338 know what you don't know see how i just said a funny thing there you weren't 00:26:46.338 --> 00:26:48.958 paying attention where you i said you think that you said you came up with that 00:26:48.958 --> 00:26:52.818 come on that was funny okay but 00:26:52.818 --> 00:26:55.438 what i mean but that is no one no one knows what it would 00:26:55.438 --> 00:26:58.098 feel like to be in that situation until they are in 00:26:58.098 --> 00:27:01.198 that situation and i just so well 00:27:01.198 --> 00:27:03.938 here like you know let me make it about me my mom passed away 00:27:03.938 --> 00:27:06.658 just a few weeks ago and i spent the three or four 00:27:06.658 --> 00:27:11.038 days there by her bedside and i have talked to a lot of people about that process 00:27:11.038 --> 00:27:15.558 and it is funny because then it's hard to not assume that you kind of have an 00:27:15.558 --> 00:27:21.138 idea of what that would be like but boy once you are there and you are just 00:27:21.138 --> 00:27:24.318 going through all the emotions, now all of a sudden I think, oh, I'm in the club. 00:27:24.458 --> 00:27:27.338 I could get a t-shirt and now I can talk more real about that. 00:27:27.878 --> 00:27:31.378 But not that you have to have the exact experience, but then you have to go 00:27:31.378 --> 00:27:36.378 through things to then get to those depths of soul and really have to go find yourself. 00:27:36.538 --> 00:27:40.578 And so, I love that you said getting rid of that need for external validation 00:27:40.578 --> 00:27:45.458 when all of a sudden your world is gone or you don't really have much time left on this earth. 00:27:45.818 --> 00:27:48.578 And no amount of external validation is going to fix that. So, 00:27:48.678 --> 00:27:51.618 to me, That bless the person's heart. I always say that in therapy, 00:27:51.678 --> 00:27:52.818 and then we can say whatever we want about them. 00:27:52.978 --> 00:27:55.898 This is one of the biggest concepts of emotional maturity that I think is around. 00:27:56.018 --> 00:27:58.398 And this is one of the, I think once you see it, you cannot unsee it. 00:27:58.518 --> 00:28:01.578 If I feel it, it is true. That's a childhood adaptation. 00:28:01.958 --> 00:28:04.638 If I think my mom and dad are mad at me, then they are. And then we say, 00:28:04.738 --> 00:28:07.398 they say, you're so mad at me. And our parents like, no, I'm not champ. 00:28:07.558 --> 00:28:10.898 And then eventually they're like, now this is me being mad at you. 00:28:11.938 --> 00:28:14.958 They'll eventually get what they want there. But then when we become adults, 00:28:15.178 --> 00:28:17.578 we still, if we haven't done our work, then we're still saying, 00:28:17.578 --> 00:28:21.458 no, I think this and so it's true and now you need to prove it's not. 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:24.859 Like that is an incredibly emotionally mature thing to 00:28:24.859 --> 00:28:27.839 do so basically she's saying you did your 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.939 job and you were being you wrong because i 00:28:30.939 --> 00:28:34.259 think so so now i need you to make me feel better about myself 00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:37.079 start dancing start dancing no i just 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.099 want to include this because there are some people that said some positive things 00:28:40.099 --> 00:28:42.819 which is cool great interview i really appreciated the honesty and 00:28:42.819 --> 00:28:45.879 authenticity praying for healing for all of your family kevin love that 00:28:45.879 --> 00:28:48.879 yeah kevin needs to work on accountability and 00:28:48.879 --> 00:28:51.759 not playing the victim in his own life he has free 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.559 will and advanced education and access to 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:57.819 so many resources there is really no excuse for 00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:01.639 how badly he showed up in this case jody having 00:29:01.639 --> 00:29:05.159 mental breakdowns and claiming to be possessed she was divorced and her own 00:29:05.159 --> 00:29:08.239 kids don't talk to her and she lost her license does that sound like someone 00:29:08.239 --> 00:29:12.239 that an educated person should take advice from even if that advice involves 00:29:12.239 --> 00:29:16.419 betraying his own kids i get that he's human yeah i get that he's human i want 00:29:16.419 --> 00:29:18.299 to start every conversation that way i I get that they're human, 00:29:18.459 --> 00:29:22.259 but I get that he's human, but he's a grown man who chose to have a family and 00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:24.759 now he's responsible for them. No excuses. 00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:29.159 Okay. So that is riddled with all or nothing black or white thinking. 00:29:29.379 --> 00:29:31.879 It just is this or that you either get it or don't. 00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:36.059 Now let's talk about the psychology of projection. So most likely I would imagine 00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:39.439 this person grew up in a pretty black and white environment where there was good and bad. 00:29:39.459 --> 00:29:41.739 And so if you didn't do the right thing, it was the wrong thing. 00:29:42.139 --> 00:29:44.539 And there's probably, I would imagine some good old perfectionism, 00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:47.319 maybe a little OCD of thought, some things, but I don't even know who the person 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:48.819 is. That is literally me judging. 00:29:49.878 --> 00:29:54.198 But I'm just bringing some gentle awareness. Correct. But then it also has the, 00:29:54.558 --> 00:29:55.578 it's, I call it mind reading. 00:29:55.738 --> 00:29:58.798 So we all know, we all think the same. Yes. 00:29:58.918 --> 00:30:03.298 So then, so he should know because, and then it's the, I call it the right guys 00:30:03.298 --> 00:30:05.358 thing. It's like, I mean, cause I would never do that. Right guys? 00:30:05.498 --> 00:30:07.018 You know, you're looking over your shoulder, nobody's there. 00:30:07.118 --> 00:30:08.778 I mean, yeah, but it's, no, I wouldn't do that. 00:30:09.058 --> 00:30:11.638 And because I would hate to think that I ever could. 00:30:11.938 --> 00:30:14.798 Now we're getting into that world of, because if that stuff can happen, 00:30:15.198 --> 00:30:16.738 then this is world is crazy. 00:30:16.998 --> 00:30:19.558 You know, this is like that. So I need certainty. I need, right? 00:30:19.558 --> 00:30:22.598 I know you feel like you taught me everything which you have i did i'll say 00:30:22.598 --> 00:30:25.898 in my book i see you there's a chapter about black and white thinking and about 00:30:25.898 --> 00:30:29.638 the safety of thinking in black and white yes and i say it in much less intelligent 00:30:29.638 --> 00:30:33.338 ways no you had that out there before but no but you're saying in a very smart 00:30:33.338 --> 00:30:35.538 therapeutic way but i do think there's truth to, 00:30:36.078 --> 00:30:40.998 thinking in black and white provides false safety yes that could not happen 00:30:40.998 --> 00:30:45.878 to me i don't do those he must this must be wrong so then it can never happen 00:30:45.878 --> 00:30:49.358 to me because that is a terrifying thought not to realize how mortal I am. Yes. 00:30:49.578 --> 00:30:51.718 And that bad things could happen to good people. 00:30:52.258 --> 00:30:56.058 Okay. And actually you quoted me in your book. So maybe I still could have taught you this. Correct. 00:30:56.378 --> 00:30:59.038 That's a fair point. Correct. No, I love what you're saying there. 00:30:59.158 --> 00:31:02.438 And it really is. We're all just trying to make sense of things. We want certainty. 00:31:02.758 --> 00:31:05.858 We want to rid ourselves of our discomfort. And so we like to say, 00:31:06.038 --> 00:31:09.838 if I was an educated man with this many kids, then I would have told that therapist 00:31:09.838 --> 00:31:10.978 you're wrong. And I would have been out. 00:31:11.198 --> 00:31:14.298 Which that's a lot of magical thinking that I would do all of these wonderful things. 00:31:14.458 --> 00:31:17.278 If I was that same person in that same spot. Great story. There are so many 00:31:17.278 --> 00:31:20.278 things that somebody would have to defend there, and I guarantee you that you 00:31:20.278 --> 00:31:23.418 would start one or two of those, and then they would still, yeah, but, well, yeah, but. 00:31:23.618 --> 00:31:27.298 So I don't believe that person's coming from a place of genuine curiosity. 00:31:27.518 --> 00:31:29.698 Bust their heart. Yeah, they just want to be heard. Yep. 00:31:30.658 --> 00:31:35.018 Okay, this old is, here we go. He's also a member of a religious organization 00:31:35.018 --> 00:31:38.578 where men are the priesthood holders and head of the house. 00:31:38.878 --> 00:31:43.058 He had all the power and gave it up to act like a kicked puppy. 00:31:43.058 --> 00:31:48.838 His youngest son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy. Man. 00:31:49.218 --> 00:31:51.898 You want to take that one or do you want me to take it? There's a lot there. 00:31:51.998 --> 00:31:54.718 I think that I can start going into the projection, black and white thinking. 00:31:54.858 --> 00:31:58.118 I think it's so it's true, make me feel better about this. We all think the 00:31:58.118 --> 00:32:01.638 same. So you start seeing these patterns. What does priesthood holder mean? 00:32:01.818 --> 00:32:04.338 What does head of household mean? What does that mean to you? 00:32:04.418 --> 00:32:07.918 How did you grow up? That is where I'm like, oh, I. 00:32:08.702 --> 00:32:11.442 Is that what that means is to have all the power whoa do i think some 00:32:11.442 --> 00:32:14.922 people believe that 100 is that all truth his youngest 00:32:14.922 --> 00:32:17.802 son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy that 00:32:17.802 --> 00:32:20.942 is a really big statement to make people you've never met yes yeah 00:32:20.942 --> 00:32:23.702 and that which is magical thinking that i would know but i like that 00:32:23.702 --> 00:32:26.442 you said that too because the way people are growing up the things that 00:32:26.442 --> 00:32:29.222 we saw modeled yeah i just have a couple right now they've 00:32:29.222 --> 00:32:32.142 been married for a very long time and we just had the conversation of 00:32:32.142 --> 00:32:34.882 she grew up where people yelled and screamed and then 00:32:34.882 --> 00:32:37.822 worked it out and the guy essentially felt like he grew up in a library 00:32:37.822 --> 00:32:41.002 so when people yell and scream then he plays small and 00:32:41.002 --> 00:32:44.202 waits for the storm to pass and so you put that dynamic together and 00:32:44.202 --> 00:32:47.062 anyone's saying well well obviously it happens this way 00:32:47.062 --> 00:32:50.202 it doesn't understand they responded to it well guess 00:32:50.202 --> 00:32:53.342 he wasn't that indoctrinated because ruby was the priesthood in 00:32:53.342 --> 00:32:56.062 that relationship so therefore what is priesthood we 00:32:56.062 --> 00:32:58.842 could get into that ruby was the priesthood in 00:32:58.842 --> 00:33:01.562 that relationship that's funny too because that would mean whoever gets to rule with the 00:33:01.562 --> 00:33:04.402 iron fist then is that actually means god's power which 00:33:04.402 --> 00:33:07.402 is like god is much different than yes same was the priesthood 00:33:07.402 --> 00:33:10.042 in that relationship i assume we're talking about joseph smith i think i can't even think 00:33:10.042 --> 00:33:12.982 of a funny one off the top of my head okay like i couldn't think of somebody cal 00:33:12.982 --> 00:33:15.642 there's so many things in there there's a funny one there 00:33:15.642 --> 00:33:18.402 julie about you where they tuned out 30 minutes in i want 00:33:18.402 --> 00:33:22.942 to know how you felt about that so good this was a great interview thank you 00:33:22.942 --> 00:33:26.822 i grew up in a cult heavily indoctrinated and in the discourse surrounding the 00:33:26.822 --> 00:33:29.842 case i've seen how many people really don't understand what being indoctrinated 00:33:29.842 --> 00:33:33.682 and abused is like and i'm glad for them but i hate that kevin now not only 00:33:33.682 --> 00:33:35.702 has to live with the consequences of his actions. 00:33:35.882 --> 00:33:39.462 But also with the constant hate and criticism of people who understand so little. 00:33:39.722 --> 00:33:43.342 I especially appreciated hearing about Kevin's personal faith after all of this. 00:33:43.482 --> 00:33:47.402 I hope he knows there are a lot of people who are there praying for him, not just haters. 00:33:47.922 --> 00:33:52.402 That's beautiful. Beautiful. And I do think that far fewer people take the time 00:33:52.402 --> 00:33:58.082 to send those things, but the people that need to have a voice in commentary 00:33:58.082 --> 00:34:00.222 of putting others down in the comment section, 00:34:00.462 --> 00:34:05.522 I find that that is a bit of a pastime for them or that is how they start to feel like they matter. 00:34:05.722 --> 00:34:08.342 As busy with other relationships and things like that. 00:34:09.171 --> 00:34:12.531 And which is again i will own the judgment yeah totally i 00:34:12.531 --> 00:34:15.531 just like this the way the footage is placed i thought you guys were holding hands i 00:34:15.531 --> 00:34:18.491 think that was right i just love the breakup of that any other comments lol 00:34:18.491 --> 00:34:21.991 it was very well cut i mean it looked like you guys were in the same studio 00:34:21.991 --> 00:34:28.871 haha yeah i thought that was a new girlfriend lol it's just funny yeah any targeted 00:34:28.871 --> 00:34:33.691 parent knows exactly what they saw in the footage of his police interview i 00:34:33.691 --> 00:34:35.151 wasn't 100 sure on that But I mean, 00:34:35.211 --> 00:34:38.411 I loved how he talked about when he was in that police interview. 00:34:38.631 --> 00:34:39.991 Oh, and if you've watched it. Yeah. 00:34:40.351 --> 00:34:44.671 Oh, it's a lot. Yeah. And I can't even imagine all of the emotions, 00:34:44.851 --> 00:34:48.031 the adrenaline, the fear, all of those things going on at that time. 00:34:48.211 --> 00:34:49.951 Now we're getting into something that I think you taught me, 00:34:50.031 --> 00:34:53.051 the amygdala hijack. When you're flooded with emotions and cortisol and your 00:34:53.051 --> 00:34:57.351 heart rate elevates, you literally lose access to the prefrontal cortex from part of your brain. 00:34:57.451 --> 00:35:00.291 You can't make sense of things. You're in that reaction, fight or flight. 00:35:00.491 --> 00:35:03.691 People in the comments are not nice to the interview or she did a good job. 00:35:03.691 --> 00:35:06.071 Oh, that's nice. But then someone says, yes, she did. 00:35:06.211 --> 00:35:09.211 The person being interviewed didn't do a good job, though. That's where all 00:35:09.211 --> 00:35:10.091 the emotions are coming from. 00:35:11.031 --> 00:35:14.231 So many interviewers interject too much of their own story into the interview. 00:35:14.871 --> 00:35:19.131 Okay. I stopped listening at 30 minutes. So many interviewers interject too 00:35:19.131 --> 00:35:20.731 much of their own story into the interview. 00:35:21.011 --> 00:35:25.731 I choose podcasts because of who the subject is, not the person conducting the interview. 00:35:26.191 --> 00:35:29.311 A good interviewer learns to listen more and talk less. 00:35:30.191 --> 00:35:33.111 Julie, your thoughts? I agree. they should 00:35:33.111 --> 00:35:36.151 learn to talk less they should go find another podcast they 00:35:36.151 --> 00:35:39.051 enjoy more and i think it's okay so this is what i thought was fascinating 00:35:39.051 --> 00:35:41.911 early on when people would say oh get to it 00:35:41.911 --> 00:35:46.711 or the it takes too long to get to the point or i don't like their intro music 00:35:46.711 --> 00:35:50.711 or whatever my first thought was always oh well then on your podcast you could 00:35:50.711 --> 00:35:54.531 do it differently but if you really think that that person thinks that they're 00:35:54.531 --> 00:35:58.491 drive by listening to you interviewing someone that they can now tell you how 00:35:58.491 --> 00:36:01.271 you should be doing you differently than the way that you did. 00:36:01.491 --> 00:36:05.491 So they apparently had a script of what your interview should have looked like 00:36:05.491 --> 00:36:06.891 that they did not get to you. 00:36:06.991 --> 00:36:10.271 So you were unaware of how you were supposed to do the podcast. 00:36:10.971 --> 00:36:14.711 Is that fair? And that was a good old differentiation. Everything's a me thing. 00:36:14.891 --> 00:36:18.211 It's an opportunity for me to self-confront and grow. Is there truth in that? I don't know. 00:36:18.871 --> 00:36:21.491 Maybe. But next time it's the first time that I'm interviewing Kevin Franke, 00:36:21.651 --> 00:36:22.331 then I'll do it differently. 00:36:22.971 --> 00:36:26.431 Totally. Okay. Here's one. This This is new to me, 13 hours ago. 00:36:26.631 --> 00:36:29.911 I don't really understand all the emotion around the deity conversation. 00:36:30.271 --> 00:36:33.471 There are so many things that are right in front of me to be emotional about. 00:36:33.591 --> 00:36:36.851 It just seems like a waste of time and energy to be focused on something that 00:36:36.851 --> 00:36:41.751 I view as being just as much make-believe as dragons. I just don't get it. 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.640 I have lots of friends that are atheists i can understand that i've been through 00:36:45.640 --> 00:36:48.440 immense suffering really through my entire life but i don't see the need 00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:52.100 to pin all my hope and strength on a fairy godmother i 00:36:52.100 --> 00:36:55.100 also don't believe in a fairy godmother just don't put that it is in my book but 00:36:55.100 --> 00:36:59.440 yeah i don't actually believe in one though i'm not trying to be mean or rude 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:03.560 which i can appreciate or denigrate anyone's faith i'm really not sorry i love 00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:06.540 when things start with that that's just exactly what it seems like to me i don't 00:37:06.540 --> 00:37:10.340 get it you don't need to do that there There are so much better reasons to go 00:37:10.340 --> 00:37:13.640 on and so many ways to get that strength you need in your weakest moments. 00:37:13.820 --> 00:37:16.360 You don't have to try to imagine it into being. 00:37:16.580 --> 00:37:21.240 Okay. So I have big thoughts on this one is when somebody says that I don't 00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:25.040 get it, that's where I did an episode not too long ago about genuine curiosity. 00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:28.460 And I do not believe that is genuine curiosity. That's I don't get it. 00:37:28.640 --> 00:37:32.280 So I'm being curious. But then when you now tell me what you think, 00:37:32.740 --> 00:37:36.000 then I call it provide me with an attack surface. So now I can tell you what 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.660 is wrong with your beliefs because I think there's a few different layers of curiosity. 00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:43.240 One is, okay, fine. I will be curious to check a box. Okay, no, tell me. 00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:46.020 There's another version where I go, no, I really want to know so that then I 00:37:46.020 --> 00:37:49.020 can tell you that you're wrong and I'm right because that'll put me in this one-up position. 00:37:49.220 --> 00:37:53.440 So genuine curiosity is an active process. You have to step outside of your ego. 00:37:53.720 --> 00:37:56.380 You have to learn how to be, not react. 00:37:56.680 --> 00:38:01.140 And so when he says, I don't get it, no one needs this, then it's like, 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:04.880 okay, hey thanks for sharing because i don't think he's really wanting to be 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.100 in a reciprocal dialogue. 00:38:08.080 --> 00:38:10.980 Absolutely i will say there's this 00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:13.860 one did was it taken off the really 00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:18.580 the mean ones that said the bad words i didn't see bad words did you see the 00:38:18.580 --> 00:38:22.780 cheating the affair thing i think i saw that one that is wait saying that you 00:38:22.780 --> 00:38:27.120 and him were yeah they used a different word but okay maybe that one got blocked 00:38:27.120 --> 00:38:31.480 ah it's so unfortunate it was no that was the one just the way that it was worded 00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:33.460 that I was like, this is just... Just mean? 00:38:34.521 --> 00:38:39.161 It's just mean, and it's just so off base of even anything that is being talked about. 00:38:39.601 --> 00:38:44.381 But I get it. People are hurt. But I just, actually, Kevin, we've been talking 00:38:44.381 --> 00:38:47.221 back and forth, and I'm like, don't, do not, you are forbidden from looking 00:38:47.221 --> 00:38:49.741 at any of the comments on there, which he's so used to this. I bet. 00:38:50.141 --> 00:38:54.361 I'm sure he knows not to if he's not going to. But yeah, there was someone then 00:38:54.361 --> 00:38:58.061 that gone on and said that we have an intimate, 00:38:58.281 --> 00:39:01.141 a very physically intimate relationship because that's 00:39:01.141 --> 00:39:03.841 the only way clearly that we could 00:39:03.841 --> 00:39:06.861 be doing this interview and i thought that was so fascinating i 00:39:06.861 --> 00:39:09.781 was like huh and actually remind me different but 00:39:09.781 --> 00:39:13.961 when we've done podcasts before adhd i had a lot of questions about if we were 00:39:13.961 --> 00:39:17.921 involved or if we were married really really like huh so that is a requirement 00:39:17.921 --> 00:39:22.481 i mean i was offended okay just wait wait i think is that didn't we figure you're 00:39:22.481 --> 00:39:26.421 two decades older than me that's sounds dramatic but It's the fact that we're 00:39:26.421 --> 00:39:27.341 all in committed marriages. 00:39:27.541 --> 00:39:29.661 It's just funny. It's like, it's such a cheap shop. Wait, hold on. Two decades, though. 00:39:29.881 --> 00:39:32.781 Is that true? I'm 35. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's decades. 00:39:33.501 --> 00:39:36.221 So you'd be like my kid. Yeah, that's why it's just like... It's a trip. 00:39:36.521 --> 00:39:39.721 Yeah, and then there's just lots of questions. There's something in German, which I looked at. 00:39:40.161 --> 00:39:43.101 Check your heart. You might have some promuladic stuff here because you still 00:39:43.101 --> 00:39:45.861 love Ruby. And then they have red flags. Again, it's that... 00:39:45.861 --> 00:39:47.681 Yeah, trauma bond. Trauma bond, yep. 00:39:48.181 --> 00:39:51.321 There's just a lot of stuff also questioning, like, about his activity and his 00:39:51.321 --> 00:39:55.281 religion, which, again, it's just so fascinating to me. 00:39:55.841 --> 00:40:00.601 I feel like that wasn't the point of any of the interview. And I think I am 00:40:00.601 --> 00:40:02.381 fairly certain. I know some of the answers to those questions, 00:40:02.481 --> 00:40:04.521 but there's part of me that doesn't even want to answer him because I just feel 00:40:04.521 --> 00:40:07.281 like it's his story to share. And what does it have to do with the interview? 00:40:07.561 --> 00:40:11.221 It doesn't. And again, it's like somebody just saying, I didn't like this one 00:40:11.221 --> 00:40:12.861 thing. So you need to make me feel better. 00:40:13.021 --> 00:40:16.161 Which even when I asked Kevin to do this interview, cause I thought about it a lot. 00:40:16.321 --> 00:40:19.221 I just met this man. He has no reason to trust me. Why would he. 00:40:20.021 --> 00:40:23.741 When I talked about it, I followed up with, and I feel this way of, 00:40:23.861 --> 00:40:25.261 you don't owe me anything. 00:40:25.261 --> 00:40:28.341 He doesn't owe anyone to do this no not at all like 00:40:28.341 --> 00:40:31.161 he's he's done everything he needs to do he has every 00:40:31.161 --> 00:40:33.861 right to go on and live the most healing life he can for himself for his 00:40:33.861 --> 00:40:36.741 kids so he did this because he felt like 00:40:36.741 --> 00:40:40.641 what i've learned maybe it could be helpful to someone and it will and it already 00:40:40.641 --> 00:40:44.421 is like i've gotten messages and messages that people are like i am bawling 00:40:44.421 --> 00:40:49.461 my eyes out because this is i have experienced this not to the same degree it's 00:40:49.461 --> 00:40:53.301 different but i relate with this and i relate to the truths i feel hope i feel 00:40:53.301 --> 00:40:56.661 there's so much of that just usually those aren't the people commenting on YouTube. 00:40:57.041 --> 00:40:59.241 I don't even know how to comment on YouTube. Yeah. You know? 00:40:59.781 --> 00:41:02.301 Cause if I like, I need to probably be more intentional about saying, 00:41:02.301 --> 00:41:04.941 Hey, well done. I so appreciate it. Like it. And I move on. 00:41:05.101 --> 00:41:09.221 And most of the comments are reserved for the people that are wanting to just take shots. 00:41:09.421 --> 00:41:11.701 This dude is disgusting and ridiculous. He let it happen. 00:41:12.141 --> 00:41:15.061 Don't give this delusion a platform. 00:41:15.961 --> 00:41:19.881 There's no justification for exploiting children. Again, what's interesting 00:41:19.881 --> 00:41:22.001 to me too, is as we watched the documentary is. 00:41:22.927 --> 00:41:26.787 From what I saw and from what I've understood, I have several mutual friends 00:41:26.787 --> 00:41:30.107 that were good friends with them during all this before it went as South. 00:41:30.787 --> 00:41:34.287 I feel like vlogging was kind of new. This eight passengers channel, 00:41:34.467 --> 00:41:38.687 I didn't know about. But I think it was a new thing that there wasn't people. 00:41:39.527 --> 00:41:44.227 It's just so much easier to have. Hindsight's 20-20. This wasn't really a thing. 00:41:45.067 --> 00:41:48.627 No, what's that called? Presentism, where we judge the past based on the present. 00:41:48.807 --> 00:41:52.347 And it's super easy to do that. So, you take that along with no one knows what 00:41:52.347 --> 00:41:56.027 it feels like to be you or me and we're in those moments, we're reacting and 00:41:56.027 --> 00:41:58.887 then quite frankly, we're trying to make sense of things as they happen. 00:41:59.527 --> 00:42:01.007 So, I think that's fascinating too. 00:42:01.907 --> 00:42:05.587 Yeah, totally. Here's another one. A white privileged wealthy male claiming 00:42:05.587 --> 00:42:06.967 hurt people hurt people. 00:42:07.207 --> 00:42:10.867 Ooh, let's unpack that. What's going on for that person? That is hard, but that, whoa. 00:42:11.347 --> 00:42:16.227 You just walked away from your kids and family because your wife's lover told you to hogwash. Okay. 00:42:16.587 --> 00:42:19.287 I was sitting there thinking, Julie, there's something i wanted to make 00:42:19.287 --> 00:42:22.567 sure we talk about again making it all about myself working in 00:42:22.567 --> 00:42:25.467 this space as a therapist so i was familiar with jody 00:42:25.467 --> 00:42:28.307 hildebrand i worked with a couple of guys that then 00:42:28.307 --> 00:42:33.367 were divorced or ran out of their marriage by jody hildebrand yeah and i know 00:42:33.367 --> 00:42:35.867 i have multiple friends that worked with her two friends in the documentary 00:42:35.867 --> 00:42:39.247 in the meetings that i was looking closer it's my third time watching i was 00:42:39.247 --> 00:42:43.467 like oh my gosh and i started texting i'm like you were the same i remember 00:42:43.467 --> 00:42:45.967 you telling me about these groups and things you were learning. 00:42:46.127 --> 00:42:48.927 I never made the connection. It was Jodi's group till two nights ago. 00:42:49.267 --> 00:42:51.667 What I thought was really fascinating. One of my clients has sent me, 00:42:51.667 --> 00:42:54.847 I have drawings that they had, that Jodi had their kids draw. 00:42:55.107 --> 00:42:59.127 And it is heartbreaking because it's basically stick figure little kid drawings 00:42:59.127 --> 00:43:00.927 that say truth and distortion. 00:43:01.067 --> 00:43:03.327 And it's like her vibe, even with their kids. 00:43:03.547 --> 00:43:06.147 And I ended up getting two or three guys that were, of course, 00:43:06.407 --> 00:43:08.587 all confidentiality. I'm changing information. 00:43:09.007 --> 00:43:12.587 My whole message on dealing with people that struggle with turning to, 00:43:12.587 --> 00:43:17.527 And since it's on YouTube, I have to say, I think cornography, addicted to corn. 00:43:18.354 --> 00:43:20.894 Oh, because does it make the video not show up? It can sometimes. 00:43:21.074 --> 00:43:25.754 Turning to that as an unhealthy coping mechanism that my number one rule is no place for shame. 00:43:25.954 --> 00:43:30.014 Shame is, I helped maybe 16, 17, 100 guys at this point. 00:43:30.234 --> 00:43:32.514 And shame has been a component of zero of their recovery. 00:43:32.994 --> 00:43:36.394 Jodi said, you start from a place of shame and you must feel shame. 00:43:36.734 --> 00:43:41.654 Isolation. And it is the craziest thing in the world to start from that place. 00:43:41.834 --> 00:43:45.874 And so I was almost honored at one point to have learned that it was mentioned 00:43:45.874 --> 00:43:49.954 that what do I know? because I am coming from this place of just, 00:43:50.094 --> 00:43:51.934 I was being deceptive and delusion. 00:43:52.394 --> 00:43:56.154 And because I did not. This is you? Yeah, that I learned through one of my clients 00:43:56.154 --> 00:43:59.134 that I was seeing individually that he was working with her as a couple. 00:43:59.654 --> 00:44:02.434 That then I was being told that I don't know what I'm talking about. 00:44:02.634 --> 00:44:05.054 So I love that. He was currently working with them? So that was kind of fun. 00:44:05.294 --> 00:44:07.934 So Cody's stuff then was like, hey, therapist, you don't know what you're talking 00:44:07.934 --> 00:44:09.994 about. My other therapist is teaching us this. Yes. 00:44:10.234 --> 00:44:14.214 How fun is that? So that was a little bit of satisfaction, even watching that whole thing play out. 00:44:14.674 --> 00:44:17.454 I just thought that was really, really interesting. but then seeing the 00:44:17.454 --> 00:44:20.194 pictures from the impact was big was big and i 00:44:20.194 --> 00:44:22.874 feel like there's a lot of people being quiet that actually did work with 00:44:22.874 --> 00:44:25.854 her because they don't want to be involved which everybody has a right to their privacy 00:44:25.854 --> 00:44:29.034 especially with therapy but it is interesting that it's 00:44:29.034 --> 00:44:32.314 really easy to the more and more i've talked to everybody i 00:44:32.314 --> 00:44:36.354 know that worked with her highly intelligent educated people also these were 00:44:36.354 --> 00:44:42.154 not and it's just so fascinating to me because i think having watched the documentary 00:44:42.154 --> 00:44:46.554 a few times now what really was cemented in my brain by the end is she actually 00:44:46.554 --> 00:44:50.474 was really nice and pretty darn helpful in the beginning. In the beginning. She gained the trust. 00:44:51.131 --> 00:44:54.071 Years. Yes, it was a long game. For years, it was a long game. 00:44:54.151 --> 00:44:57.171 That's what trauma bonding is, that intermittent reinforcement is the long game. 00:44:57.331 --> 00:45:00.151 I mean, Chad talks about it in interviews now, he's like, and they talk about 00:45:00.151 --> 00:45:04.071 their marriage was looking better. There was positive things happening. 00:45:04.331 --> 00:45:09.171 So, you get, you dig the closet and you get the trust and then you start turning 00:45:09.171 --> 00:45:13.051 the dial after you have it and that's how someone can be effective in doing what she did. 00:45:13.091 --> 00:45:16.071 They can. And what I think is fascinating too is when you go to therapy. 00:45:16.551 --> 00:45:19.471 There's, I remember some data and And these days now I think, 00:45:19.571 --> 00:45:22.071 okay, our memory is crazy that I need to probably look this up. 00:45:22.171 --> 00:45:25.731 So I will tell you, I don't know the source, but there was a thought that 40% 00:45:25.731 --> 00:45:29.891 of couples got better just by signing up for therapy because now they were doing something about it. 00:45:30.071 --> 00:45:33.831 And so often you keep telling yourself, I'll do it later and I'll do it when 00:45:33.831 --> 00:45:37.971 it gets worse, but then things get bad and then it's too uncomfortable and you 00:45:37.971 --> 00:45:40.511 just say, okay, no, next time if something happens, I'm going to get help. 00:45:40.771 --> 00:45:43.931 So just the very fact that you're signing up and somebody is saying words and 00:45:43.931 --> 00:45:45.071 they seem confident about it. 00:45:45.271 --> 00:45:48.831 I will often notice that because I love being a couples therapist. 00:45:49.111 --> 00:45:53.251 And when somebody comes in, hey, we've got the right tools. It takes a lot to 00:45:53.251 --> 00:45:54.291 come in here, a lot of courage. 00:45:54.431 --> 00:45:57.571 And so they get better. They get better. And then there's like a little bit 00:45:57.571 --> 00:46:00.211 of honeymoon period. And then they go back to their home base. 00:46:00.531 --> 00:46:03.291 And then they think, oh my gosh, we can't even therapy well. 00:46:03.451 --> 00:46:06.371 So I think she rode that cycle. She's saying, I'm very confident. 00:46:06.671 --> 00:46:10.991 It's also as a therapist that you have to make a living by charging for this 00:46:10.991 --> 00:46:13.611 stuff. I was blown away by how much she charged. 00:46:13.891 --> 00:46:16.191 And she was also coming from this place of, can you tell us? 00:46:16.331 --> 00:46:18.011 I know I cannot, but I know I do know. 00:46:18.151 --> 00:46:21.131 And it was like, she would, yeah. Cause she was, yeah. Oh gosh. 00:46:21.231 --> 00:46:23.931 She had a whatever point million dollar home down there in Southern Utah. 00:46:24.391 --> 00:46:28.071 I would feel bad when I bumped my hourly rate up 10 bucks every couple of years. 00:46:28.071 --> 00:46:30.731 And she's going thousands of dollars to sell these packages. 00:46:31.391 --> 00:46:35.571 And there is a part where you feel like, and I think this is what started happening. 00:46:35.731 --> 00:46:39.271 The educated people, the wealthy people, you feel like you are joining that 00:46:39.271 --> 00:46:41.131 a special flower club. It's like Costco. 00:46:41.311 --> 00:46:44.171 When you think, oh, I'm going to get what I pay for because if I'm going to go. Yeah. 00:46:44.611 --> 00:46:46.991 Okay. Poor kid heart walking to Costco. I'm like, I don't belong here. 00:46:47.071 --> 00:46:51.251 Does anyone realize I don't belong at Costco? She did create a sort of a status there. Yep. 00:46:51.551 --> 00:46:55.011 And okay. So here's the comment. This entire story is pathetic. 00:46:56.002 --> 00:47:01.202 The entire story this entire story is pathetic mr frankie is a spineless wimp 00:47:01.202 --> 00:47:07.142 what kind of man allows a therapist to control him so the two of you are having 00:47:07.142 --> 00:47:10.562 dinner are you there we go, 00:47:11.702 --> 00:47:14.842 ing the entire family continues to profit 00:47:14.842 --> 00:47:18.002 on youtube i see you are too what 00:47:18.002 --> 00:47:21.102 i did like is they say i see you i saw i see you and i was like wait are 00:47:21.102 --> 00:47:23.922 they gonna use that to twist it so i see you are too 00:47:23.922 --> 00:47:28.342 so we're i am not profiting yeah zero dollars 00:47:28.342 --> 00:47:31.462 either of us fyi yeah is the comments 00:47:31.462 --> 00:47:34.862 like that so you two are having dinner i'm like oh that means 00:47:34.862 --> 00:47:37.802 steak yeah okay hope it's good everybody knows 00:47:37.802 --> 00:47:40.842 if you're having dinner with i talked to my husband this morning i was like hey fyi 00:47:40.842 --> 00:47:45.582 just so you don't find out online there's a thing going on okay you know you 00:47:45.582 --> 00:47:49.102 weren't even aware of no but he's like oh that's why you went on vacation like 00:47:49.102 --> 00:47:52.322 obviously because you're high didn't so apparently i i didn't know that but 00:47:52.322 --> 00:47:55.702 the internet does so and you took your kids so that was like you brought my 00:47:55.702 --> 00:47:58.242 kids yeah yeah what a good cover i know right yeah. 00:47:59.909 --> 00:48:03.349 Oh, it's just funny. Bless their heart. But that is a mean thing to say. 00:48:03.929 --> 00:48:07.029 When one becomes differentiated, you're going to know who you are without needing 00:48:07.029 --> 00:48:10.689 others to tell you and grounded and not playing small and taking ownership of 00:48:10.689 --> 00:48:14.929 things that you can't, that is a process of learning who you are. So you're grounded. 00:48:15.389 --> 00:48:18.289 One of the greatest things there is if somebody is sitting there and they're 00:48:18.289 --> 00:48:22.149 saying those things to you and when one is maybe not differentiated, 00:48:22.229 --> 00:48:24.449 they want to defend and fight back and prove. 00:48:24.729 --> 00:48:28.789 But if I know that those are not true, it's so powerful to be able to say, 00:48:28.789 --> 00:48:31.709 hey tell me what your hope was there did you want me to like get really angry 00:48:31.709 --> 00:48:34.369 or i'm because i'm not really sure i'm so cute do you want a hug 00:48:34.369 --> 00:48:37.609 do you need a hug yeah because i think that's ultimately what it is you 00:48:37.609 --> 00:48:40.529 and this is saying that about a stranger i would need a hug i 00:48:40.529 --> 00:48:43.329 do think at the core if somebody is there at that 00:48:43.329 --> 00:48:46.149 point they are now here's where kevin was so spot 00:48:46.149 --> 00:48:48.829 on hurt people are hurting people and so they 00:48:48.829 --> 00:48:51.649 want you to get mad so they can go yeah you you stink too and then 00:48:51.649 --> 00:48:54.429 they get a little adrenaline pump and then they can drive along and go 00:48:54.429 --> 00:48:57.249 to the next video and tell those people they suck too and because 00:48:57.249 --> 00:49:00.529 the most hurt people the most emotionally mature don't know 00:49:00.529 --> 00:49:03.169 they exist unless they're interacting with another human and they need that 00:49:03.169 --> 00:49:06.009 in a way of saying i'm real i'm still breathing yeah which 00:49:06.009 --> 00:49:08.809 is heartbreaking and that's why when i think often when somebody does 00:49:08.809 --> 00:49:11.849 engage a little bit with somebody like that they thrive off 00:49:11.849 --> 00:49:14.749 of it it's like oh man i'm getting a connection yeah 00:49:14.749 --> 00:49:17.729 it's the whole no attention is worse than bad attention 00:49:17.729 --> 00:49:20.449 and that's again it's like how do i know i exist and when 00:49:20.449 --> 00:49:23.289 you're growing up and you're a kid then you will get attention 00:49:23.289 --> 00:49:26.209 either be in the star student or the emo kid or 00:49:26.209 --> 00:49:29.149 the one that shuts down that and that's 00:49:29.149 --> 00:49:32.049 honestly sad or unfortunate so this is 00:49:32.049 --> 00:49:35.169 interesting i've been discussing so i'm newly married who did 00:49:35.169 --> 00:49:39.109 the ring ceremony i saw your wedding they seemed super cool yeah they knew what 00:49:39.109 --> 00:49:42.389 they were doing for sure you did i did it was so fun it was really fun that 00:49:42.389 --> 00:49:44.849 was that was a great wedding i need to send you the vows because i actually 00:49:44.849 --> 00:49:48.609 just got the recording of it the fun thing is that tony me and my husband none 00:49:48.609 --> 00:49:53.069 of us had any time to prepare because he took so long primping at the other not No. 00:49:53.389 --> 00:49:55.209 Your husband the other one the other one with the shaved head. 00:49:55.249 --> 00:49:58.089 Yes, there's no hair to do and it takes me like five minutes Anyway, 00:49:58.089 --> 00:49:59.609 we don't know. No, it's we adore. 00:49:59.749 --> 00:50:01.509 He's so sweet though. I love that guy. I just want to have Yeah, 00:50:01.529 --> 00:50:06.129 for real because the first time I ever met him He is love he is a lovable fridge 00:50:06.129 --> 00:50:09.769 you want to hug but it's interesting We've talked about this a little bit where 00:50:09.769 --> 00:50:14.249 sometimes I've noticed that I something I've seen in myself as transitioning 00:50:14.249 --> 00:50:17.709 into a new relationship a second marriage primates his first is I've noticed 00:50:17.709 --> 00:50:19.629 that when if we aren't talking. 00:50:20.509 --> 00:50:26.669 I really struggle I feel like in some ways something in me hurts even more than if we are fighting, 00:50:27.149 --> 00:50:29.529 like, arguing, I don't want to say fighting, fighting can mean a lot of things, 00:50:29.529 --> 00:50:33.629 but, like, disagreeing, it's the silence is more painful, and I was thinking 00:50:33.629 --> 00:50:36.429 about that, and I was like, oh, I think that's, it's this feeling of, 00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:38.049 wait, am I here, am I real? 00:50:38.189 --> 00:50:41.949 Absolutely, Julie. And I think that's a common human experience to navigate of- 00:50:42.346 --> 00:50:45.146 what is this bringing up for me from where what you know 00:50:45.146 --> 00:50:48.386 is am I real am I am I secure when it's quiet that's 00:50:48.386 --> 00:50:51.026 an anxious attachment and usually we partner up with a good old 00:50:51.026 --> 00:50:53.846 avoidant and then we got this anxious avoidant loop and then we're the 00:50:53.846 --> 00:50:56.766 goal is to become secure yes right and 00:50:56.766 --> 00:51:00.126 so at that point even be able to express that hey are we good and if he says 00:51:00.126 --> 00:51:03.226 we're good and then if I want to ask again five minutes later that's a me thing 00:51:03.226 --> 00:51:06.246 yeah and now I need to learn to soothe or calm because if it's like okay I don't 00:51:06.246 --> 00:51:09.546 feel like we're good now I'm back into that I feel it so I think it's true so 00:51:09.546 --> 00:51:11.786 can you make me feel better but I'm not really sure what it's going to take 00:51:11.786 --> 00:51:14.286 And you have no clue where to start, but go ahead. 00:51:14.766 --> 00:51:19.246 But the interdependency is I take care of my own needs and I'm able to ask for 00:51:19.246 --> 00:51:22.446 help taking care of my needs, which is can we just check in real quick? 00:51:22.546 --> 00:51:26.186 Are we good? And you say yes, but then me trusting we're good because you said. 00:51:26.286 --> 00:51:29.546 And then when you get the advanced levels of that is, man, I am so grateful 00:51:29.546 --> 00:51:31.826 that we are good because now let me take you my train of thought. 00:51:32.166 --> 00:51:36.686 When I sense a shift in body language or when I notice that you picked up your 00:51:36.686 --> 00:51:40.886 phone quick, I'm telling myself the story because then we can dig into it. 00:51:40.886 --> 00:51:42.406 And if he's like, man, tell me more about that. 00:51:42.706 --> 00:51:45.766 Now we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human. 00:51:45.946 --> 00:51:49.386 So this safe human has said that. And I'm like, okay, so I don't know, 00:51:49.546 --> 00:51:51.306 my feelings about when my dad or whatever. 00:51:51.606 --> 00:51:53.846 And now we get to blame our parents. And now we're back. It's, 00:51:53.886 --> 00:51:57.486 can you see where that is good versus I don't, man, I don't want to say this 00:51:57.486 --> 00:51:58.626 because I don't want them to think I'm crazy. 00:51:59.026 --> 00:52:03.166 So then I'm managing their emotions and I'm not being open. I'm not letting them see me. 00:52:03.626 --> 00:52:07.446 Yeah, I know. It's a lot. Yeah. Which is funny because that's honestly why I 00:52:07.446 --> 00:52:11.286 just, I do like these comments and I know we're cracking wise and but there's 00:52:11.286 --> 00:52:14.166 a reason why every behavior is a need-seeking behavior. 00:52:14.466 --> 00:52:18.906 Every emotion is trying to tell us a story. And so, the person is wanting someone 00:52:18.906 --> 00:52:21.426 to see them, which is what your whole thing is. 00:52:21.606 --> 00:52:24.046 Sorry we twisted that, look, I see you. Yep. Manipulative. 00:52:24.506 --> 00:52:28.266 No, but, and I am like, I am teasing a little, I guess there's part of me that 00:52:28.266 --> 00:52:30.826 feels like, well, I have the right to a little bit because you're saying these things. 00:52:30.946 --> 00:52:34.706 But in all reality, I think it's important to point out the craziness of online in part. 00:52:36.189 --> 00:52:40.309 Just not to take life too seriously and people that don't actually know you probably, 00:52:41.349 --> 00:52:44.149 it's a good idea to not put too much into their 00:52:44.149 --> 00:52:47.209 advice yes however there is 00:52:47.209 --> 00:52:50.649 something about as we actually pull this apart i'm getting really sad because 00:52:50.649 --> 00:52:54.409 i'm like no i want i don't want them to feel like that yeah i don't want them 00:52:54.409 --> 00:52:56.929 to want to say those mean things about people they don't know because actually 00:52:56.929 --> 00:53:00.149 there's like a little kid inside hurting i don't mean that patronizing i've 00:53:00.149 --> 00:53:04.889 been that person well we all have that that inner child and that is the way that we were Okay, 00:53:04.949 --> 00:53:06.989 now let's get deeper. I love where this is gone, by the way. 00:53:07.529 --> 00:53:09.389 Kevin Franke has been our muse and we appreciate that, Kevin, 00:53:09.529 --> 00:53:12.329 because the interview was wonderful and I want everyone to watch that. 00:53:12.849 --> 00:53:17.169 And I had all these- He gave away gold. He did. For me listening, I've learned so much. 00:53:17.169 --> 00:53:20.309 And so now maybe what we're going to do is right now I've set this stage for 00:53:20.309 --> 00:53:24.009 a part two because I actually had legitimate questions about other things like, 00:53:24.069 --> 00:53:26.949 but I really like where we're going here because that inner child that are, 00:53:27.089 --> 00:53:30.469 I love this concept of the, Our childhood adaptations, 00:53:30.849 --> 00:53:34.529 the things that kept us alive as a kid, now are maladaptive as an adult. 00:53:34.729 --> 00:53:37.929 So these, somebody that needs to tell somebody how bad they are, 00:53:38.389 --> 00:53:40.209 like that is how they were seen as a kid. 00:53:40.349 --> 00:53:43.109 It kept them alive. So you get to say, thank you, inner child. 00:53:43.349 --> 00:53:46.449 This is the way that you, yep. And, but now let the big kid take over. 00:53:46.589 --> 00:53:50.649 Oh, so good. The bus, driving the bus. Yeah. Do you use that analogy? 00:53:50.889 --> 00:53:54.089 And you guys said it in Kevin's interview, even, and it was about the emotions, 00:53:54.269 --> 00:53:57.349 being able to be on the bus. No, I taught you that. That's what you're remembering. 00:53:58.550 --> 00:54:02.190 Okay yes yes and i've 00:54:02.190 --> 00:54:05.070 been to therapy so i know that it was yes this 00:54:05.070 --> 00:54:08.410 is an analogy that truly has helped me a lot though is the yes and 00:54:08.410 --> 00:54:11.530 i love that thank you just took me a minute no this 00:54:11.530 --> 00:54:14.210 is one of the for me one of 00:54:14.210 --> 00:54:17.130 the most powerful ways i have been able 00:54:17.130 --> 00:54:20.170 to deal with my own things from the past which 00:54:20.170 --> 00:54:23.590 is i am driving the bus yeah but 00:54:23.590 --> 00:54:27.970 also five-year-old julie is sitting in the seat in the bus or not the bus the 00:54:27.970 --> 00:54:32.730 van i'm driving the van five-year-old julie sitting in the van 12-year-old julie 00:54:32.730 --> 00:54:35.870 sitting in the van 22 year old city this little kid that thought this this teenager 00:54:35.870 --> 00:54:41.010 thought this and so when i when people in the van have opinions about where 00:54:41.010 --> 00:54:42.390 i should go which direction. 00:54:42.970 --> 00:54:46.010 I don't just shut them up and not listen to them i'm 00:54:46.010 --> 00:54:49.050 like oh okay i hear you i hear you three-year-old in a car seat yeah 00:54:49.050 --> 00:54:52.270 but i'm also not going to expect a three-year-old to drive a van it's not 00:54:52.270 --> 00:54:54.970 compassion and so as i did my own i've done a 00:54:54.970 --> 00:54:57.750 lot of like inner child healing and reading a lot of books that really spoke to 00:54:57.750 --> 00:55:00.530 me just this idea that we're not because i didn't 00:55:00.530 --> 00:55:03.590 like the idea but i do feel these things and they feel strong and 00:55:03.590 --> 00:55:08.250 it's like i gotta recognize them but being able to know i'm protecting the three-year-old 00:55:08.250 --> 00:55:12.370 i'm not shutting up the three-year-old i'm protecting them by saying man i hear 00:55:12.370 --> 00:55:16.270 you you're hot and you're hungry and you're scared that this trip will never 00:55:16.270 --> 00:55:20.210 end because it feels like eternity only two minutes because you're three i get 00:55:20.210 --> 00:55:23.090 that and I am aware of it and that's gonna help me. 00:55:23.230 --> 00:55:26.890 I'm gonna take all your advice from all of you, okay, and then as the adult, 00:55:27.150 --> 00:55:31.030 I'm going to drive the van where I think is the best place for all of us to 00:55:31.030 --> 00:55:32.950 considering all of our feelings and opinions. 00:55:33.190 --> 00:55:37.510 But I'm not gonna unstrap the three year old, put him in the fancy and say- 00:55:38.395 --> 00:55:41.175 Yeah you should drive because that's not protecting the three that's not taking care 00:55:41.175 --> 00:55:44.255 of the three-year-old isn't capable of that that's unfair and 00:55:44.255 --> 00:55:47.135 now my job as an adult is i get to i get to take care of 00:55:47.135 --> 00:55:50.055 these people and for me that that's really helped 00:55:50.055 --> 00:55:53.135 me to not shame myself yeah about some 00:55:53.135 --> 00:55:56.895 feelings that come up that sometimes feel very irrational because 00:55:56.895 --> 00:55:59.815 they are not they're not level with 00:55:59.815 --> 00:56:02.495 the most mature yeah and with the situation it's like 00:56:02.495 --> 00:56:05.375 this tiny thing happens and it brings up these feelings of like 00:56:05.375 --> 00:56:08.575 and as an adult I'm able to see this doesn't make 00:56:08.575 --> 00:56:11.355 sense over this tiny thing that happened but I can stop 00:56:11.355 --> 00:56:14.515 and say okay who's in the van who's hurting who's hot who's hungry 00:56:14.515 --> 00:56:17.215 what's going on I hear you I see you now I'm 00:56:17.215 --> 00:56:20.115 gonna make a decision and the adult has to be willing to put up or deal 00:56:20.115 --> 00:56:23.215 with or make space for all the emotions and 00:56:23.215 --> 00:56:26.195 be grounded okay not reactive can I 00:56:26.195 --> 00:56:29.015 read something on here please okay this is not one of the quotes but 00:56:29.015 --> 00:56:31.915 but yes before you do that can we end on one there's one 00:56:31.915 --> 00:56:34.875 more feedback i want to end on it because yeah we'll 00:56:34.875 --> 00:56:37.875 wrap it up too we went an hour julie oh my gosh i'm 00:56:37.875 --> 00:56:40.915 so sorry and you're wait now why are you sorry why did 00:56:40.915 --> 00:56:45.215 you feel the need to apologize tell me more about this okay here we go what 00:56:45.215 --> 00:56:48.655 an incredible interview and such a change of pace from the headlines it's amazing 00:56:48.655 --> 00:56:52.555 to see so much humanity and love coming through this heartbreaking situation 00:56:52.555 --> 00:56:55.375 thank you both for bringing out the light in the dark and helping listeners 00:56:55.375 --> 00:56:59.655 to see each other beyond what's on the surface i love this not just like it's okay hey, 00:56:59.755 --> 00:57:01.975 people don't think the interview is incredible or that I'm a great host. 00:57:02.155 --> 00:57:03.075 Like, that's beside the point. 00:57:03.295 --> 00:57:07.535 But I just, the humanity and love coming through the heartbreaking situation. 00:57:08.135 --> 00:57:12.875 That they can see the effort of trying to share light and good, 00:57:12.995 --> 00:57:13.995 bringing out the light and the dark. 00:57:14.635 --> 00:57:17.495 I don't care, really, my presentation style. Like, that's, it's fine. 00:57:17.535 --> 00:57:20.215 It's okay if people don't like that. But I appreciate that people are... 00:57:21.146 --> 00:57:23.806 Can pay attention to good and saying hey that rings true to me 00:57:23.806 --> 00:57:26.686 too it's kind of the difference i feel like between being trying 00:57:26.686 --> 00:57:29.606 to be a problem maker and a problem solver yeah yeah 00:57:29.606 --> 00:57:32.426 i love the problem solver of even if they're like 00:57:32.426 --> 00:57:36.426 oh that was so annoying the way she did that i hate oh i hate her hair like 00:57:36.426 --> 00:57:41.666 oh great but that they can say even if they do they can say oh that one piece 00:57:41.666 --> 00:57:44.346 of truth i'm gonna take that i'm gonna leave what i don't like but i'm gonna 00:57:44.346 --> 00:57:49.026 take that for them it doesn't need to be about perfection or me or him or anything, 00:57:49.106 --> 00:57:51.206 but just if this was helpful in some way, great. 00:57:51.426 --> 00:57:55.346 We're all human. And that is mature. Somebody can not like my hair and think the message is okay. 00:57:55.566 --> 00:57:57.806 That's fine. And that's okay. And it really is okay. It doesn't really impact 00:57:57.806 --> 00:57:58.986 my life unless I... Okay. 00:57:59.126 --> 00:58:02.386 Well, let me say this. This is a quote that I put on a recent podcast about 00:58:02.386 --> 00:58:06.106 emotional immaturity, and it's from a book, a fiction book. 00:58:06.666 --> 00:58:09.746 Did you ever read The Silent Patient by chance? No. It was brilliant. 00:58:09.906 --> 00:58:13.206 But the author, Alex Michelaitis, then followed up with one called The Fury. 00:58:13.406 --> 00:58:16.486 So, a fictional character talked about their therapist. So, again, 00:58:16.606 --> 00:58:18.946 we're talking fictional character, fictional therapist, but it is one of the 00:58:18.946 --> 00:58:21.186 most brilliant concepts I've ever heard. 00:58:21.526 --> 00:58:24.546 He says, my therapist was called Mariana. I remember once she said something 00:58:24.546 --> 00:58:28.106 chilling. It messed my head for a long time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life. 00:58:28.386 --> 00:58:32.126 She said, when we are young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens. 00:58:32.566 --> 00:58:36.546 Time stops. It freezes at that moment. A version of us is trapped at that age forever. 00:58:36.826 --> 00:58:39.546 A frightened child is hiding in your mind. It's still unsafe. 00:58:39.766 --> 00:58:41.026 It's still unheard and unloved. 00:58:41.206 --> 00:58:44.106 And the sooner you get in touch with that child and communicate with them 00:58:44.106 --> 00:58:47.466 the more harmonious your life will be and here's the big part after all 00:58:47.466 --> 00:58:50.266 that's what he grew you for isn't it a strong adult body to look after 00:58:50.266 --> 00:58:53.246 him in his interest to take care of him and to protect him you 00:58:53.246 --> 00:58:57.166 were meant to liberate him but instead you ended up becoming his jailer i 00:58:57.166 --> 00:59:01.906 get the chill still your inner child didn't know how to protect itself or speak 00:59:01.906 --> 00:59:06.066 up for itself it imprinted these emotions and said okay when you're an adult 00:59:06.066 --> 00:59:10.566 you can heal this so go get them but then we become the adult we miss the message 00:59:10.566 --> 00:59:13.526 so we still react as these immature, 00:59:13.526 --> 00:59:16.646 reactive adults that are saying, hey, look at me. 00:59:16.966 --> 00:59:20.146 This is the way I did it as a kid. And our own inner child is like, 00:59:20.286 --> 00:59:21.766 what the? You're like big now. 00:59:21.986 --> 00:59:26.346 Can't you be calm and curious? I thought the big kid had the answers. 00:59:26.746 --> 00:59:30.506 But I love that. We were meant to liberate that inner child, not become its jailer. 00:59:31.586 --> 00:59:36.286 A fair amount of wardens in the comments, apparently. And also some big kids 00:59:36.286 --> 00:59:37.706 were showing up there too. Yeah, they were. 00:59:38.246 --> 00:59:41.706 Julie Lee, how fun was this, huh? This is good. The band is back. 00:59:41.866 --> 00:59:44.826 Thanks for, the band is back. Yeah. Thanks for, wait, hang on. 00:59:48.086 --> 00:59:51.586 I don't know where this is going. The drummer's back. That thing you do? 00:59:51.786 --> 00:59:53.786 Remember how they have more than, is that not a normal drum? 00:59:53.906 --> 00:59:56.586 Just in that thing you do. Yeah, I don't know the reference. 00:59:56.626 --> 00:59:57.686 Also, we're going on a cruise. 00:59:57.986 --> 00:59:59.946 We are. We'll probably wear sunglasses there. 01:00:02.246 --> 01:00:05.106 Okay, thank you so much, Julie. Thanks for having me. Hopefully I hit record. 01:00:06.446 --> 01:00:09.506 That is all right. Man, can you imagine? Can you imagine? 01:00:10.186 --> 01:00:18.446 Flying past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's one. 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:39.417 Music.