WEBVTT

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So picture this. It's 1987. I am a fair-skinned, fair-haired teenager in Utah,

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and I'm lying on a trampoline in my backyard, slathered head-to-toe in baby oil.

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Man, there's a ditty joke there. But my friends and I are convinced that we've

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discovered the secret to the perfect tan.

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We're literally cooking ourselves in the sun. And in the winter,

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we would drive up to the ski resorts in the canyons and create these makeshift

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reflective tanning beds in the snow because apparently we thought that year-round

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skin damage was the key to looking cool.

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And then fast forward to my early 30s, and I find myself sitting in a dermatologist's

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office, and he's explaining that all of these years of sun worship are about

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to haunt me for the rest of my life.

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Those scabs and these little scales that are covering my scalp,

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they're called actinic keratosis.

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They are these precancerous growths that develop when your skin has been damaged

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by ultraviolet radiation over the course of many, many years.

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So basically this teenage quest for a tan that I never actually really got,

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I was more of red and peel, had turned my scalp into a field of potential skin cancers.

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So for the next several years, I would go to the dermatologist's office twice

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a year and he would burn or freeze off the keratosis using liquid nitrogen.

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It would sting and it would scab and then they would go away and I would be

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good for a few more months when then more would appear in different places.

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So eventually, a doctor recommended a treatment that sounded almost worse than the problem.

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It was a topical chemotherapy cream called fluorouracil.

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And this medication works by targeting these

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rapidly dividing cells like cancer cells but

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it also affects any sun damaged skin cells at all the process is intense to

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say the least the cream essentially causes all the damaged skin to become inflamed

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and then scab over and then slough off and then eventually revealing new beautiful

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healthy skin underneath and if you are curious about what this looks like.

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You can actually Google my name, an actinic keratosis, but buckle up because

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the pictures are very, very dramatic.

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I chronicled the entire experience some 15 years ago, but for about three weeks,

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I looked like I'd been in some sort of accident.

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My entire head and my forehead were covered in these thick, crusty scabs,

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big ones, and I became a walking testament to the dangers of sun damage.

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Now, here's what was fascinating. The way the world treated me during those

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three weeks was completely different.

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People would honestly, it appeared to show some disgust.

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Some did show pity, but most people just avoided me and they looked away.

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Not like I'm getting people staring at me constantly, but there were people

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that were actively looking the other direction and they were avoiding eye contact.

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And it was like my appearance was somehow contagious or it was definitely offensive.

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Cashiers would look down at the register and waiters would seem to focus on

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their notepads and even my own friends seemed a little bit more uncomfortable

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and it was it seemed like normal conversations were much shorter and,

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So for three weeks, I experienced the world as somebody who looked different,

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less socially acceptable, and it changed everything about how I moved through the world.

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And I can still think about that now and I can feel the feelings because I started

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to become less social and a little less likely to go out.

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It wasn't as important to me, which led to a little less confidence in conversations.

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And even though I knew the scabs were temporary and people around me did as

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well, or at least that's what I had communicated to them.

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And I also knew that this was the right thing to do. It was going to lead to

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new skin, healthy new skin. But the way that people treated me made me feel

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fundamentally different about myself.

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So here we are almost 15 years later, and I just completed the treatment once again.

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Now, it was with a new formulation that's supposed to work faster, and it really did.

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And even though I'm generally a pretty secure person, I did notice a lot of

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familiar feelings that crept in.

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Anxiety about how I'll look, worry about how people will react.

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And a part of me wanted to just hide until it was over. I was still seeing clients in real time.

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And I had a copy and paste that just gave them a little bit of a heads up because

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I didn't want to take the time and therapy to explain what they were going to see.

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But there was about a week this time where it looked like I was just very,

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very red and puffy and burned.

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And now I think I've got that luxurious skin again for who knows how long until

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I have to go through it again.

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But that experience before and even the feelings of doing it again recently

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taught me something really profound about the relationship between how we look

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and how others treat us and how we feel about ourselves.

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Here's the crazy part. What if I told you that sometimes this relationship works

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in reverse? What if how we think we look is actually more powerful than how we actually look?

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Welcome to the virtual couch.

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Please take a seat for pillars, emotional maturity.

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Music.

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My name is Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father, and four.

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And today we are diving into one of the most fascinating experiments in psychology,

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the Dartmouth SCAR study.

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And this is where researchers discovered that believing you have a visible flaw

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can be more powerful than actually having one.

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So my experience with these actinic keratoses gave me a real world lesson in

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how visible differences affect our social interactions and how we feel about ourselves.

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But now imagine though, if the reactions that I experienced,

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the averted gazes, the discomfort,

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the change behavior of others that did happen, but imagine if that happened,

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even when there was nothing actually different or wrong with how I looked.

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What if that was just all in my head?

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Imagine if the scar was invisible to everyone but me, but I still experienced

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all of the discrimination and the judgment.

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That's exactly what happened in this groundbreaking 1980 study at Dartmouth College.

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And what it revealed about the human mind, you're not gonna be able to unhear

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what you are about to hear.

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And it will change the way of how you think about belief, perception.

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But more importantly, what we're going to dig so deep into today is why it is

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so incredibly difficult for us to change our own mind or why we try to change

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the minds of others about things that matter the most to us.

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So before we do that, I would just love for you to right now go to tonyoverbay.com

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and sign up for my newsletter.

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I got a newsletter out this week and I have some really, really cool things that are happening.

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And I want to let you all know about that. The quickest way is going to be through the newsletter.

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Go to tonyoverbay.com or follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or TikTok at

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virtualcouch or on YouTube at the Virtual Couch Podcast Network or on Facebook,

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Tony Overbay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.

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And some of you should have started hearing by now more information about the men's group.

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And if you haven't yet, it's coming. And if you still want to be a part of the

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men's emotional architects group, then reach out to me.

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And one of the most exciting things is a cruise that I am the,

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I don't, I just, I guessed with my friend, Julie de Jesus, and it's a ICU living

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mental health cruise, which means we're going to talk about positive things

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about mental health. I would love to answer all of your mental health questions.

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And that is sailing out of the port of Galveston. It is in, it is the end of

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January of next year, 2026.

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I will have all the information in a link in the show notes or shoot me an email.

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Come see me. If you find me on a boat and I have soft serve chocolate ice cream

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in my hand or in my bowl, I probably would rather put it in a bowl than carry it around in my hand.

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I will answer all your mental health questions and I love it.

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I love what I do. I would love to help you.

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If you are interested in working with me as a therapist, as a coach, then shoot me a note.

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Email me at contact at Tonyoverbay.com. I really enjoy working with people that

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are familiar with my work or the things that I work on, whether you're an individual or a couple.

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I am starting to create a little bit more space or availability for some new

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people, and that would either be virtual wherever you live, or I have offices

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in the Mesa, Arizona area or up around the Rockland, Roseville, California area.

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Let's get to the nuts and bolts of today's show.

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Here's the setup for the Dartmouth SCAR experiment. It's 1980.

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There's a psychologist named Dr. Robert Kleck and his colleague, Angelo Strinta.

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They conducted this experiment at Dartmouth College that would,

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I really think it fundamentally changes how we understand the relationship between

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our beliefs, our perceptions, and our reality.

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So here's how it worked. Students were told that they were participating in

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a study about how people with facial scars are treated in social interactions.

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The researchers brought in a professional makeup artist who applied a very realistic

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looking scar, a big one, to each participant's face.

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The participants were then shown their reflection in a mirror so they could

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see exactly what they look like with this prominent facial defect.

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Here's where it just gets so interesting the makeup artist then before

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they went out and interacted with others said hey

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i need to need to touch that up i need to add some

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setting powder to make sure that the scar looks realistic and wouldn't smudge

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during their upcoming social interactions now what the participants didn't know

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and i would imagine they're already thinking oh my gosh this is going to be

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something there maybe their heart rate's elevating a little bit that amygdala

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is about to get hijacked so not maybe paying complete attention because when

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the makeup artist did this touch-up what they actually did was they were able

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to remove the scar entirely.

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Now, participant did not know that. So they left the room believing I have this

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hideous scar on my face, this visible facial scar, when in reality now they

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appeared completely normal to everybody that they encountered.

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So they were, were fascinating, striking, heartbreaking, because the participants

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who believed that they had the scars reported that people treated them differently.

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But the ones that thought they had scars, they perceived stares,

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awkward interactions, and what they interpreted as very discriminatory behavior.

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They felt judged. They reported feeling marginalized. And they responded to

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what they saw as very clear evidence of others' negative reactions to their hideous appearance.

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Remember, there was no scar. The people that they interacted with saw completely normal faces.

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So this discrimination that they experienced, it existed entirely in their perception.

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And I think this experiment reveals something so profound about human behavior, psychology.

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Our beliefs about ourselves and our circumstances can be so powerful that they

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literally shape our reality.

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They change the inner landscape of our mind.

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The participants didn't just think that they were being treated differently.

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They genuinely experienced different treatment because their expectations influenced

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how they interpreted very neutral or ambiguous social cues.

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And we did a live Q&A episode that I released a few days ago with Sydney,

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and we covered the study in more detail and we interacted with a lot of the

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people that were there on the live.

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But we also discussed how to best navigate a faith journey. I talked in more

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detail about some additional details of this Dartmouth-Scar study.

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So if you want to hear more about this, we go into a completely different direction

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than where I'm going in today's episode.

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But think about this for a minute. These weren't people who were lying or making things up.

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These people who thought they went out into the world with this huge noticeable

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scar on their face they were experiencing their reality through the lens of

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their beliefs about what was happening to them in very real time i recently

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heard somebody say that your unconscious mind is always listening and it believes you.

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So be kind in how you talk to yourself. Basically, they were asking,

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would you talk to a friend the way that you're talking to yourself?

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Now, hopefully no, but if you say yes, then you might want to talk to a professional about that.

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And I think that this experiment shows a very similar version of this.

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If I believe it, it is. Or the cliche, your perception truly is your reality,

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even though if it's to your detriment or the detriment of a loved one.

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Now, let's go back into the world of emotional immaturity. One of my favorites.

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There's a concept there where I share, if I believe it, it must be true.

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You don't care about me, says a well-meaning but insecure or immature partner.

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So therefore, it is true. Even if your partner is putting on a masterclass of caring for you.

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But if you don't feel it, if that's not how you are perceiving their efforts,

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then what they are doing is wrong and bad, even though most likely you're not

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even sure what it would take to make you believe that they cared.

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But that's how powerful perception can be without the ability

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to think critically to self-confront to

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bring some personal responsibility into the mix with maybe even a dash of humility

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that i may actually not know what i don't know that i might actually not know

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how to get the help necessary to improve my situation okay but where was i your

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perception is your reality even if it is to your detriment or the detriment

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of a loved one a relationship an ideology a belief system a religious community,

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an experience, you name it.

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We are so hardwired to create meaning, to predict what comes next,

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to try and seek certainty.

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I want to know if this will work, if this person cares, because then I'll put

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forth effort and we want to avoid discomfort.

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And this shows how powerful that the mind can be, both in harmful ways and in helpful ones.

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I will never forget the day that I drove home in a mini Cooper.

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All of a sudden, they were everywhere.

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And you also have an awkward club nod that you nod or wave to other Mini Cooper owners.

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It's like when I had a Jeep at one point, all of a sudden though,

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these Mini Coopers were everywhere.

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Or I think about this often, if you buy your probably your 15th fancy new insulated

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water bottle over the last few years, now listen, you notice,

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oh my gosh, that everybody has this exact same one.

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Welcome to the world of confirmation bias, right?

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And I literally said the word right, because I promise that you will now hear

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that everywhere. People ending sentences with right.

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And if you don't really think it's right, it gets to be a little bit odd.

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As a couples therapist, I remember one of the first couples that just did this

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so much where the guy might, and I'm saying this purely humorously because he

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didn't say this, but it was as if he was saying, you know,

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how the guy is going to be the one who is the smartest in a relationship, right?

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And so it says it so casually that if I keep going along, then it says if I agreed.

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And I found myself wanting to say, I mean, not actually, tell me more about

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that. And he would say, okay, it was not that big of a deal.

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So it was this verbal tick that this person said. And now I hear it everywhere.

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I call this a verbal crutch.

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And it's one of the current verbal crutches being used. I don't know. Does that make sense?

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Which does that make sense is another one that I am beginning to hear everywhere.

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We are also very deep into the like generation, like the number of like times

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I like edit out the word like with a couple of the guests that I've like had

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on recently is like crazy, right? Does that make sense?

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You're welcome. Or I apologize for giving you that particular version of confirmation

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bias, because now I would imagine you are going to hear the word right and like.

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And does that make sense a lot today?

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As a matter of fact, someone please email me and let me know that validate me,

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please, that that is what happened.

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But what is confirmation bias? It's the psychological mechanism that makes the

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SCAR experiment even possible.

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Confirmation bias is our tendency to seek out, interpret, and remember information

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in ways that confirms our pre-existing beliefs.

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It's basically like having a very selective research assistant that is with

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you at all times, going around in your brain, who only brings you evidence that

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supports what you already think is true, because that does feel better.

00:15:51.739 --> 00:15:56.259
Now, this is not about being stubborn, necessarily. It's about how our minds

00:15:56.259 --> 00:15:57.739
fundamentally process information.

00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:02.259
When we encounter new information, we typically don't tend to evaluate it neutrally.

00:16:02.359 --> 00:16:04.699
We run it through the filter of what we already believe.

00:16:05.442 --> 00:16:08.762
And let me tell you about the experiment that really put confirmation bias on the map.

00:16:09.542 --> 00:16:13.082
In 1960s, there was a psychologist named Peter Wasson, and he wanted to understand

00:16:13.082 --> 00:16:15.242
how people test their beliefs and assumptions.

00:16:15.402 --> 00:16:18.882
And what he discovered was it just seems so simple when you hear this.

00:16:19.042 --> 00:16:23.522
And I would imagine with our own brain trying to make sense of things, here's how it worked.

00:16:23.922 --> 00:16:27.002
Wasson would give participants a sequence of three numbers, and it started with

00:16:27.002 --> 00:16:33.122
two, four, six, and tell them that this sequence followed a specific rule that he had in mind.

00:16:33.722 --> 00:16:38.522
Their job was to figure out what that rule was by proposing other sequences of three numbers.

00:16:38.802 --> 00:16:42.122
So for each sequence they suggested, Wasson would then tell them whether it

00:16:42.122 --> 00:16:45.902
followed his rule or it did not. So it sounds kind of simple, right?

00:16:46.442 --> 00:16:49.342
Does that make sense? Here's what almost everybody did. They looked at 2,

00:16:49.402 --> 00:16:52.862
4, 6 and immediately formed a hypothesis. Oh, okay.

00:16:53.202 --> 00:16:56.582
Must be even numbers increasing by two. Makes sense.

00:16:56.982 --> 00:17:00.962
So then they would start testing by letting them know, hey, I think is the sequence

00:17:00.962 --> 00:17:04.842
4, 8-10 or 6-8-12 or 20-22-24.

00:17:05.262 --> 00:17:08.142
And every time, Wasson would say, yeah, that follows the rule.

00:17:08.462 --> 00:17:12.362
So after getting several confirmations, most participants felt very confident

00:17:12.362 --> 00:17:13.862
and they announced their hypothesis.

00:17:14.042 --> 00:17:17.702
The rule is even numbers and it increases by two.

00:17:18.142 --> 00:17:24.682
So they started testing sequences like 8-10-12 or 12-14-16 or 20-22-24.

00:17:25.022 --> 00:17:29.402
And every time when they asked Wasson, he would say, yes, that follows the rule.

00:17:29.742 --> 00:17:33.382
So after getting several confirmations, then most participants felt very confident.

00:17:33.522 --> 00:17:34.422
They announced their hypothesis.

00:17:34.822 --> 00:17:38.842
The rule is even numbers increasing by two. And they were wrong.

00:17:39.402 --> 00:17:44.102
The actual rule was so much simpler. Any three numbers in ascending order. That's it.

00:17:44.422 --> 00:17:47.782
The sequence 1, 3, 17 would have worked. So would 5, 6, 100.

00:17:48.082 --> 00:17:51.962
But almost no one discovered this because they only tested the sequences that

00:17:51.962 --> 00:17:53.302
confirmed their initial assumption.

00:17:53.862 --> 00:17:58.002
And here's kind of the kicker. If they had tried just one sequence that challenged their hypothesis.

00:17:58.262 --> 00:18:03.182
So if they would have just said, let's do a rule out like 1, 3, 5 or 10, 11, 12,

00:18:03.442 --> 00:18:07.302
well, they would have also gotten a yes from Wasson and then realized,

00:18:07.462 --> 00:18:15.282
oh, my ascending number by two rule is far too narrow, but they didn't want to risk being wrong.

00:18:15.282 --> 00:18:19.082
It was if they thought they were going to get another experiment where they're

00:18:19.082 --> 00:18:20.542
going to get shocked for saying the wrong answer.

00:18:20.702 --> 00:18:24.482
So they only tested examples that they expected to work. This is confirmation bias in action.

00:18:24.902 --> 00:18:28.862
We don't naturally try to prove ourselves wrong. We try to prove ourselves right.

00:18:29.102 --> 00:18:33.122
And you know what? I get it because it is difficult to be wrong.

00:18:33.302 --> 00:18:36.322
It can feel really awkward if you're not good at being wrong.

00:18:36.722 --> 00:18:39.722
It doesn't always feel good to have your assumptions challenged.

00:18:39.722 --> 00:18:43.382
It causes us to react, not necessarily respond.

00:18:43.742 --> 00:18:47.342
We immediately go to fight or flight mode, but here's what makes this really

00:18:47.342 --> 00:18:48.522
relevant to our daily lives.

00:18:49.162 --> 00:18:52.502
We do the same thing with our beliefs about politics, religion,

00:18:52.742 --> 00:18:54.042
relationships, parenting, you name it.

00:18:54.262 --> 00:18:58.122
We look for evidence that confirms what we already think and we avoid information

00:18:58.122 --> 00:18:59.142
that might challenge us.

00:18:59.834 --> 00:19:02.694
So think about it. When was the last time that you actively sought out information

00:19:02.694 --> 00:19:05.534
that fully contradicted something that you believed in strongly?

00:19:05.994 --> 00:19:09.274
When did you last read an article or watch a video from somebody whose political

00:19:09.274 --> 00:19:10.214
view is opposed to yours?

00:19:10.314 --> 00:19:15.234
Not to argue with them, but to genuinely test your own assumptions and see what

00:19:15.234 --> 00:19:16.294
feelings came up for you.

00:19:16.754 --> 00:19:19.974
It's not that we're necessarily stupid or stubborn. We're human.

00:19:20.394 --> 00:19:24.154
Our brains are designed to protect our existing beliefs, especially when those

00:19:24.154 --> 00:19:30.354
beliefs are tied to our identity or our community or our sense of safety in

00:19:30.354 --> 00:19:33.154
the world, in our community, in our family system.

00:19:33.534 --> 00:19:37.174
And just like those participants in Watson's study who were so close to the

00:19:37.174 --> 00:19:40.174
truth, but missed it because they were afraid to test their own assumptions,

00:19:40.374 --> 00:19:45.214
we might be missing very important insights about ourselves and the world because

00:19:45.214 --> 00:19:49.194
we're more comfortable confirming what we already believe than discovering that

00:19:49.194 --> 00:19:51.894
we may actually not have the right information.

00:19:52.114 --> 00:19:55.354
The beautiful thing is once you understand this tendency, you can start to work

00:19:55.354 --> 00:19:59.594
with it. You do not need years to begin to think critically or look at yourself.

00:20:00.214 --> 00:20:05.794
You can begin to ask yourself, what would I need to see if changing my mind

00:20:05.794 --> 00:20:06.974
about this was even possible?

00:20:07.274 --> 00:20:11.534
What would I need to actually do? And I can seek that out to test my own belief system.

00:20:12.034 --> 00:20:16.414
Or what if the opposite of what I believe is true? What if it was? Just humor yourself.

00:20:17.134 --> 00:20:20.854
And they're not comfortable questions, but they're the kinds of questions that lead to growth.

00:20:21.014 --> 00:20:25.534
It might lead to a little more understanding and I would dare say wisdom.

00:20:26.154 --> 00:20:29.814
Today, I want to pepper you with a real world example. Imagine a husband whose

00:20:29.814 --> 00:20:32.794
wife says that she is feeling depressed and she wants to go back to work.

00:20:33.014 --> 00:20:36.454
She believes having a sense of purpose and adult interaction outside the home

00:20:36.454 --> 00:20:40.714
might help her mental health and make her a better mom when she's with the kids.

00:20:40.834 --> 00:20:44.774
Now, the husband's initial reaction is two, four, six. His hypothesis becomes

00:20:44.774 --> 00:20:47.174
stay-at-home moms are better for children and families, period.

00:20:47.614 --> 00:20:50.694
But here's what he's not even willing to admit, even to himself,

00:20:50.914 --> 00:20:56.234
that if his wife goes back to work, he'll more than likely need to do more around

00:20:56.234 --> 00:20:59.034
the house, pick up kids from daycare, help with dinner prep,

00:20:59.314 --> 00:21:01.354
maybe share the mental load of family management,

00:21:01.774 --> 00:21:05.554
help out a little bit more with the laundry at night and fold clothes together. And that scares him.

00:21:05.994 --> 00:21:10.734
But instead of examining that fear, he focuses on proving his hypothesis. So what does he do?

00:21:11.034 --> 00:21:14.374
Just like Watson's participants, he starts looking for evidence that confirms his belief.

00:21:14.734 --> 00:21:17.374
He goes around and he asks coworkers and friends, hey, did your mom stay at

00:21:17.374 --> 00:21:18.874
home when you were a kid? How'd that work out?

00:21:19.214 --> 00:21:22.754
When somebody says, oh yeah, my mom stayed at home and leave me. I turned out great.

00:21:23.214 --> 00:21:27.094
He mentally files that. Got it. There's a good example. I'll file that as confirmation.

00:21:27.594 --> 00:21:31.254
Now, when another colleague mentions, actually, my mom worked and it taught

00:21:31.254 --> 00:21:35.154
me more independence. Plus she was, seemed to be happier and more engaged when she was at home.

00:21:35.654 --> 00:21:39.874
And she seemed more interactive with my dad. He seemed genuinely curious for her work life.

00:21:40.434 --> 00:21:43.374
So when he heard that this person, he dismissed it. Well, I mean,

00:21:43.374 --> 00:21:46.054
every family is different. Or, I mean, I guess that worked for you guys,

00:21:46.174 --> 00:21:47.934
but that's not what I'm, that's not what I'm talking about.

00:21:48.797 --> 00:21:52.657
He starts Googling things like benefits of stay-at-home moms and children of

00:21:52.657 --> 00:21:53.637
working mothers' problems.

00:21:54.277 --> 00:21:58.737
Notice he's not searching effects of maternal employment on children or stay-at-home

00:21:58.737 --> 00:22:00.057
versus working mothers' research.

00:22:00.137 --> 00:22:03.437
He's searching for confirmation, not for information.

00:22:03.817 --> 00:22:07.277
He finds some blog posts from some very conservative parenting websites and

00:22:07.277 --> 00:22:10.817
a few studies that suggest children of stay-at-home mothers have slightly better

00:22:10.817 --> 00:22:11.877
outcomes in certain areas.

00:22:12.017 --> 00:22:15.077
And he screenshots these and he sends them to his wife as evidence.

00:22:15.077 --> 00:22:20.177
But when she shows him peer-reviewed research about how maternal employment

00:22:20.177 --> 00:22:22.997
can actually benefit children's development and how women with a sense of purpose

00:22:22.997 --> 00:22:26.897
outside the home often experience better mental health and relationship satisfaction,

00:22:27.217 --> 00:22:32.057
he immediately finds ways to dismiss it. We literally had these sessions in my office.

00:22:32.437 --> 00:22:35.617
He said things like, well, those studies are probably biased or they don't account

00:22:35.617 --> 00:22:39.457
for our specific situation or he doesn't really realize who you are as a mom

00:22:39.457 --> 00:22:42.277
and I'm worried that if you go out in the workforce, that's going to be really hard for you.

00:22:42.697 --> 00:22:46.837
He talks to his father who says, your mom stayed at home with you kids and you guys turned out fine.

00:22:47.317 --> 00:22:51.117
Confirmation. Talks to the guy at church who he talks to guys at church who

00:22:51.117 --> 00:22:53.857
praise their wives for sacrificing to stay home. More confirmation.

00:22:54.397 --> 00:22:57.077
But when his wife's friend mentions that going back to work actually saved her

00:22:57.077 --> 00:22:59.497
marriage because she felt more fulfilled and present when she was at home,

00:22:59.597 --> 00:23:01.297
he thinks, yeah, it's kind of different though.

00:23:01.437 --> 00:23:03.817
She probably wasn't as naturally maternal as my wife.

00:23:04.377 --> 00:23:06.877
Here's the kicker though. Now he never tested his hypothesis.

00:23:07.277 --> 00:23:11.297
He never asked, what would I need to see to believe that my wife working might

00:23:11.297 --> 00:23:12.617
actually be good for our family?

00:23:12.857 --> 00:23:16.757
He never genuinely explored, what if my wife being fulfilled and mentally healthy

00:23:16.757 --> 00:23:17.877
is more important for our children

00:23:17.877 --> 00:23:21.377
than having her physically present but depressed, really for my benefit?

00:23:21.877 --> 00:23:27.257
And I hope you're wanting me to say, or how about just ask her,

00:23:27.497 --> 00:23:30.297
which he did, but he was even asking her.

00:23:30.457 --> 00:23:34.057
I did an episode on curiosity a few weeks ago where he would ask her to check

00:23:34.057 --> 00:23:38.037
a box or ask her so that he could then get more data as an attack surface and

00:23:38.037 --> 00:23:40.317
then tell her where she's wrong, not with genuine curiosity.

00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.120
So just like Watson's participants who kept testing 8, 10, 12,

00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:50.760
and 12, 14, 16, instead of trying 1, 3, 5, this husband keeps seeking the same

00:23:50.760 --> 00:23:54.180
type of confirming evidence instead of genuinely testing whether his assumption might be wrong.

00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:59.920
And there are a lot of times where this air quote works because the person in

00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:03.620
the position that this husband is in is essentially showing that,

00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:06.200
hey, I'm going to grind you down until you do what I say.

00:24:06.860 --> 00:24:10.040
And then I will feel better. I will tell you that isn't this better.

00:24:10.040 --> 00:24:12.720
And by that time, because of the relationship dynamic we have,

00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:16.140
most likely you'll say, uh-huh, sure, because you just tried,

00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.300
again, to find your voice and express yourself, and it didn't work.

00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:25.540
And by the time, and if you make it to couples therapy, and you finally express

00:24:25.540 --> 00:24:29.460
that you haven't felt seen or heard or understood, and when he then says,

00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:30.480
well, why haven't you told me?

00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:34.260
This is the part where I love raising my hand and saying, I can take this one

00:24:34.260 --> 00:24:37.700
and laying out a scenario like this one. Back to this Watson study.

00:24:38.040 --> 00:24:41.280
So that real rule, the ascending numbers in this scenario that I'm talking about

00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:44.160
might be something like children thrive when their parents are mentally healthy,

00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:47.780
fulfilled and present when they're together, regardless of employment status.

00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:50.860
But he'll never discover that rule because he's afraid to test sequences that

00:24:50.860 --> 00:24:52.580
might disprove his hypothesis.

00:24:53.100 --> 00:24:56.040
And part of the narrative that they're bringing into couples therapy is their

00:24:56.040 --> 00:24:59.160
husband has felt like they don't do anything around the house,

00:24:59.260 --> 00:25:04.000
but the husband in those scenarios has not been curious. They are just projecting. They're just telling.

00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:08.180
And that's one of the saddest parts. In this scenario, his confirmation bias

00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:11.580
isn't just protecting his beliefs about parenting, it's protecting him from

00:25:11.580 --> 00:25:14.940
having to confront his own fears about increased responsibility and change.

00:25:15.040 --> 00:25:20.640
He is not wanting to even truly know who his wife is or explore why this is

00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:21.640
so uncomfortable for him.

00:25:22.060 --> 00:25:26.240
So instead of dealing with those fears directly, which could be an amazing opportunity

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.300
for the two of them to connect,

00:25:27.540 --> 00:25:31.700
and those are the types of things that we can explore in therapy,

00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:36.220
Maybe he's unconsciously recruiting research to avoid the real conversation

00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:38.160
that he needs to have with himself and his wife.

00:25:39.100 --> 00:25:42.340
This is why simply presenting facts to somebody rarely works.

00:25:43.252 --> 00:25:46.792
And you will often hear so many versions of this. Well, I just need to tell

00:25:46.792 --> 00:25:50.212
them this or, and I told them what I thought and they did not magically change

00:25:50.212 --> 00:25:51.772
all of their beliefs and their mind.

00:25:52.592 --> 00:25:57.432
His wife in this scenario could and actually did show him a lot of studies.

00:25:57.552 --> 00:26:00.032
I was about to use narcissistic math and say dozens and dozens of studies,

00:26:00.172 --> 00:26:03.452
all the studies showing all the studies, but it was a couple of them about the

00:26:03.452 --> 00:26:04.772
benefits of maternal employment.

00:26:04.892 --> 00:26:07.092
But his brain has already decided those don't count.

00:26:07.412 --> 00:26:12.212
He is not looking for truth. He is looking for confirmation that his current

00:26:12.212 --> 00:26:16.092
belief system can stay intact and he can go to doing what he wants to do.

00:26:16.552 --> 00:26:21.612
And then she will leave defeated and wondering, can I even stay in this relationship?

00:26:21.652 --> 00:26:23.712
And I don't feel good about myself.

00:26:23.912 --> 00:26:27.432
And I look at this as almost this drive-by type of invalidation.

00:26:28.112 --> 00:26:32.692
She can put out an emotional bid. He can drive on by. Nope, don't like it. And then keep on going.

00:26:32.932 --> 00:26:36.612
And then she's left to deal with, wow, I don't know what to do now.

00:26:37.472 --> 00:26:40.732
So let's dig a little deeper into the world of confirmation bias because research

00:26:40.732 --> 00:26:45.152
in that area has identified a few different ways that confirmation bias then manifests.

00:26:45.432 --> 00:26:49.112
And I think these are important to understand so that you can now know what you didn't know.

00:26:49.632 --> 00:26:53.972
One is called selective search. We look for information that supports our beliefs

00:26:53.972 --> 00:26:57.572
and we avoid information that challenges it. Selective search.

00:26:58.012 --> 00:27:02.292
Another one is called biased interpretation. We interpret in ambiguous information

00:27:02.292 --> 00:27:05.932
in ways that will support our existing beliefs. So we will take this lump of

00:27:05.932 --> 00:27:09.412
clay of information and we can mold it to fit our belief system.

00:27:10.172 --> 00:27:13.412
There's selective memory. We remember information that confirms our beliefs

00:27:13.412 --> 00:27:14.992
better than information that contradicts them.

00:27:15.232 --> 00:27:19.232
We will go into a lot of detail about memory, selective memory,

00:27:19.592 --> 00:27:23.312
confabulated memory in an upcoming episode because memory is one of the most

00:27:23.312 --> 00:27:24.232
fascinating things ever.

00:27:24.572 --> 00:27:28.092
I can watch a couple not remember what somebody else said two minutes before,

00:27:28.232 --> 00:27:31.032
but yet they are committed to a narrative of something that happened 10 years

00:27:31.032 --> 00:27:34.712
ago and cannot believe that their partner doesn't remember it the exact same way.

00:27:35.763 --> 00:27:38.683
There's also a concept called discounting. We find ways to completely dismiss

00:27:38.683 --> 00:27:40.723
or minimize information that contradicts our beliefs.

00:27:41.363 --> 00:27:44.063
And let's talk about these different types of confirmation bias.

00:27:44.283 --> 00:27:47.863
And a quick side note, when I am working with couples, there are five what I

00:27:47.863 --> 00:27:52.463
call highly charged topics that people want to talk about, but don't have the

00:27:52.463 --> 00:27:53.363
tools to talk about them.

00:27:53.443 --> 00:27:56.923
So when they come into therapy, they don't quite put together the fact they

00:27:56.923 --> 00:27:59.303
typically want to talk about these very high charged topics.

00:27:59.663 --> 00:28:03.283
Things that they did not succeed in talking about out in the wild.

00:28:03.283 --> 00:28:06.043
They want to talk about these high charge topics without knowing how

00:28:06.043 --> 00:28:09.023
and this is why i think an unskilled couples therapist

00:28:09.023 --> 00:28:12.483
can easily get drawn into the role of referee or judge you

00:28:12.483 --> 00:28:15.483
have to slow your role you have to learn the right tools

00:28:15.483 --> 00:28:18.343
when talking about ordering food through

00:28:18.343 --> 00:28:21.683
the taco bell drive-thru or through a miscommunication of

00:28:21.683 --> 00:28:24.603
getting something from the grocery store because my five highly

00:28:24.603 --> 00:28:28.203
charged topics are drumroll please money parenting

00:28:28.203 --> 00:28:31.283
sex religion and politics so today

00:28:31.283 --> 00:28:34.423
it's time to work in the world of the high charge topics because well

00:28:34.423 --> 00:28:37.203
they're everywhere especially politics and in my

00:28:37.203 --> 00:28:40.103
world and in my practice currently religion so i'm going

00:28:40.103 --> 00:28:43.043
to pepper in what some might believe to be these controversial

00:28:43.043 --> 00:28:48.483
topics or high charge topics and of course your opinion or beliefs may and probably

00:28:48.483 --> 00:28:52.723
will differ from what i share and if they do then there is truly no better time

00:28:52.723 --> 00:28:55.863
to literally practice what i am preaching than in this very podcast episode

00:28:55.863 --> 00:29:00.103
if you run into contradictory information to what you believe so back to the

00:29:00.103 --> 00:29:01.103
different types of confirmation bias.

00:29:01.223 --> 00:29:04.623
Let's go into selective search and I'll give you some details and I'll give

00:29:04.623 --> 00:29:08.023
you some examples. Let's talk about a political example of selective search.

00:29:08.163 --> 00:29:12.143
A very conservative person will only read or watch Fox News.

00:29:12.563 --> 00:29:15.763
Wall Street Journal, editorial pages, and conservative blogs while actively

00:29:15.763 --> 00:29:18.963
avoiding things like CNN or NPR or any liberal source.

00:29:19.443 --> 00:29:24.163
Conversely, a liberal person only consumes CNN, MSNBC, New York Times opinion

00:29:24.163 --> 00:29:27.823
section, and progressive podcasts while avoiding all conservative media.

00:29:28.883 --> 00:29:33.603
In the health world, somebody who believes vaccines are dangerous only seeks

00:29:33.603 --> 00:29:36.803
out anti-vaccine websites, testimonials from parents who blame vaccines for

00:29:36.803 --> 00:29:42.063
their children's autism, and studies that suggest vaccine risks while avoiding CDC data,

00:29:42.443 --> 00:29:44.803
peer-reviewed medical journals, or pro-vaccine information.

00:29:45.303 --> 00:29:48.243
Or let's talk about a personal example. A person convinced their spouse does

00:29:48.243 --> 00:29:51.723
not appreciate them, only notices the times their partner seems distracted or

00:29:51.723 --> 00:29:55.163
doesn't say thank you, while unconsciously avoiding or not seeking out evidence

00:29:55.163 --> 00:29:57.043
of their partner's appreciation and love.

00:29:57.223 --> 00:30:02.383
I had a session recently where a husband has been accused of being on his phone

00:30:02.383 --> 00:30:06.023
a lot, and he has finally acknowledged that, okay, that has been the case.

00:30:06.803 --> 00:30:09.783
Fast forward a week in couples therapy. They had had a good week.

00:30:09.963 --> 00:30:11.883
They'd gone on a date. They had done some fun things.

00:30:12.263 --> 00:30:15.143
And she said, but he still pulled out his phone a couple of times.

00:30:15.543 --> 00:30:19.883
And he was very frustrated because he had worked very hard to be present.

00:30:20.063 --> 00:30:23.863
So she found the times or had hung on to those times when he pulled out his

00:30:23.863 --> 00:30:27.703
phone and did not look at that with genuine curiosity or appreciate the fact

00:30:27.703 --> 00:30:31.763
that he did not have his phone out as much. And I understand that too.

00:30:31.923 --> 00:30:35.263
And my beloved four pillars of a connected conversation, that pillar one of

00:30:35.263 --> 00:30:38.643
giving someone the benefit of the doubt, or no one wakes up in the morning and

00:30:38.643 --> 00:30:39.643
thinks, how am I going to hurt my partner?

00:30:39.843 --> 00:30:43.983
So this person had tried to do a lot of work on staying away from their phone,

00:30:44.163 --> 00:30:45.343
almost to their detriment.

00:30:45.523 --> 00:30:48.423
So it's hard because if someone is not assuming good intentions,

00:30:48.663 --> 00:30:53.403
then they are essentially looking for the things that will confirm what they're looking for.

00:30:54.043 --> 00:30:56.723
Seek and ye shall find. If you look hard enough, you are likely going to find

00:30:56.723 --> 00:30:57.843
what it is that you are looking for.

00:30:58.263 --> 00:31:02.283
In each of these cases, they are actually curating their information diet to

00:31:02.283 --> 00:31:05.383
only include sources that will tell them what they want to hear and systematically

00:31:05.383 --> 00:31:07.763
avoiding information that will challenge their existing beliefs.

00:31:08.123 --> 00:31:11.143
So the second type of confirmation bias called biased interpretation.

00:31:11.403 --> 00:31:15.083
Let me go down the political realm. Two people watch the same presidential debate.

00:31:15.323 --> 00:31:18.823
A supporter interprets that the candidates pause as thoughtful consideration

00:31:18.823 --> 00:31:24.063
while an opponent sees the exact same pause as not knowing the answer or being evasive.

00:31:24.283 --> 00:31:27.363
Or let's say that a presidential candidate runs on a platform of being open

00:31:27.363 --> 00:31:29.463
and transparent about some controversial information.

00:31:29.803 --> 00:31:33.463
But then And after he's elected, he says, I cannot believe the people are still

00:31:33.463 --> 00:31:36.983
talking about wanting him to release the information, despite the fact that

00:31:36.983 --> 00:31:40.303
there are several instances of him saying prior to being elected that he has

00:31:40.303 --> 00:31:41.723
no problem releasing the information.

00:31:42.123 --> 00:31:45.663
Maybe even take it further and somebody on his staff says that they have the

00:31:45.663 --> 00:31:49.243
information and they'll release it shortly, but then the information is no longer available.

00:31:49.643 --> 00:31:53.303
Somebody who is devoted to that candidate at all costs,

00:31:53.563 --> 00:31:57.183
even at the cost of their own personal values or integrity, is going to say

00:31:57.183 --> 00:31:59.883
he must have a good reason for not only completely changing his mind,

00:32:00.043 --> 00:32:02.263
not acknowledging that he had said that he would release the information,

00:32:02.503 --> 00:32:07.803
but even must have a good reason why turning on his own base for calling them stupid and foolish.

00:32:08.063 --> 00:32:12.203
He must be doing this 4D chess that I've heard of while somebody who doesn't

00:32:12.203 --> 00:32:14.843
support that candidate is going to say he lied.

00:32:14.963 --> 00:32:21.423
He misrepresented the facts yet again, or he must be trying to hide what is in the information.

00:32:21.923 --> 00:32:24.303
Let's go into the world of sports. I know this one far too well.

00:32:24.383 --> 00:32:27.543
A referee makes a close call against your favorite team. You interpret this

00:32:27.543 --> 00:32:28.843
as evidence, it's rigged.

00:32:29.023 --> 00:32:32.063
The ref is biased. The game is rigged against your team. Always is.

00:32:32.543 --> 00:32:35.843
While fans of the opposing team see it as not as a fair call or,

00:32:36.043 --> 00:32:39.003
well, it's about time they've been favoring your guys' team the whole time.

00:32:39.931 --> 00:32:45.791
There is no greater place to observe confirmation bias than with a fandom.

00:32:46.411 --> 00:32:50.891
Let's go relationships. Your partner comes home and says, hi, in a neutral tone.

00:32:51.071 --> 00:32:53.971
And if you're feeling insecure about yourself or the relationship,

00:32:54.111 --> 00:32:55.751
you might interpret this as coldness or distance.

00:32:56.131 --> 00:32:59.411
If you're good, if you're feeling secure, then you might interpret it as normal,

00:32:59.411 --> 00:33:02.431
or maybe they're tired, or maybe they were distracted by work.

00:33:02.531 --> 00:33:04.171
And I might jump in with a little more curiosity.

00:33:04.751 --> 00:33:08.831
Let's touch on the high charge topic of religion. A person of faith experiences

00:33:08.831 --> 00:33:11.731
a coincidence, like thinking of an old friend right before they call.

00:33:12.551 --> 00:33:17.071
As a believer might interpret this as divine intervention or a spiritual connection,

00:33:17.311 --> 00:33:20.751
while a skeptic sees it as simple probability playing out.

00:33:21.171 --> 00:33:23.951
So notice how the same exact information, a debate performance,

00:33:24.131 --> 00:33:27.511
a referee's call, a partner's greeting, gets filtered through the lens of what

00:33:27.511 --> 00:33:30.911
we already believe, and that leads us to see evidence for our existing beliefs,

00:33:30.931 --> 00:33:32.631
even in completely neutral events.

00:33:33.031 --> 00:33:35.511
Next up is selective memory. Let's go into the world of parenting.

00:33:35.511 --> 00:33:38.611
Parents often remember their children's successes and cute little moments far

00:33:38.611 --> 00:33:40.791
more vividly than tantrums and difficult phases.

00:33:41.071 --> 00:33:43.551
They might tell stories about how their toddler was such a good sleeper while

00:33:43.551 --> 00:33:45.711
forgetting months of sleep deprivation.

00:33:46.331 --> 00:33:50.611
Or I was working with a financial planner as a client at one point,

00:33:50.651 --> 00:33:54.571
and he would often just talk about their, his successful trades,

00:33:54.711 --> 00:33:58.051
the years that he made a whole lot of money so much more clearly than his losses.

00:33:58.731 --> 00:34:01.671
I hear gamblers often say that they win more than they lose,

00:34:01.831 --> 00:34:05.491
which I don't think that's a thing. The casinos aren't built that way.

00:34:06.151 --> 00:34:10.051
They might recall this one time that they bought Apple stock before it jumped

00:34:10.051 --> 00:34:13.471
while forgetting the multiple times they lost money on similar sure thing investments.

00:34:14.011 --> 00:34:16.951
Or the world of academics. A student who believes they are bad at math will

00:34:16.951 --> 00:34:20.791
more easily remember the times they got wrong answers or felt confused while

00:34:20.791 --> 00:34:21.711
forgetting or downplaying the

00:34:21.711 --> 00:34:24.271
problems that they solved correctly or the concepts that they understood.

00:34:24.991 --> 00:34:28.271
Well, after a breakup, people often remember either the mostly good times if

00:34:28.271 --> 00:34:31.171
they want to get back together or mostly the bad times that they want to move

00:34:31.171 --> 00:34:34.011
on while forgetting the more balanced, nuanced reality of the relationship.

00:34:34.631 --> 00:34:37.871
I have processed many a person who is going through divorce,

00:34:38.111 --> 00:34:39.211
and it turns out that they knew.

00:34:39.331 --> 00:34:42.931
They knew 30 years ago from the moment that they were heading to the wedding

00:34:42.931 --> 00:34:45.291
that everything since that time has been bad.

00:34:45.431 --> 00:34:49.551
Our brains act like these biased historians, carefully preserving memories that

00:34:49.551 --> 00:34:52.851
support our current beliefs while allowing contradictory memories to fade away

00:34:52.851 --> 00:34:57.431
into the distance, creating a personal archive that seems to prove we've always been right.

00:34:57.951 --> 00:35:01.111
And then another kind of confirmation bias discounting we'll

00:35:01.111 --> 00:35:04.051
talk about climate change somebody skeptical of climate

00:35:04.051 --> 00:35:07.591
change might dismiss any scientific study by saying yeah scientists are just

00:35:07.591 --> 00:35:10.211
trying to get grant money or the data has been manipulated rather than engaging

00:35:10.211 --> 00:35:13.771
with the actual evidence or a medical example a person who believes in alternative

00:35:13.771 --> 00:35:17.431
medicine might discount their doctor's advice about needing surgery by saying

00:35:17.431 --> 00:35:20.971
doctors just want to make money or western medicine only treats symptoms not

00:35:20.971 --> 00:35:22.951
the root causes and while there might be some truth in that,

00:35:23.131 --> 00:35:26.471
it's not that black or white or all or nothing.

00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:30.780
Let's talk about a personal growth example. Somebody receives feedback that

00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:32.120
they interrupt people frequently.

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:35.040
Instead of considering if this might be true, they discount it by thinking,

00:35:35.620 --> 00:35:38.140
hey, you're just too sensitive. Or, hey, that's just the way I communicate.

00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:40.440
Or, they don't understand my passion for the topic.

00:35:41.240 --> 00:35:45.220
And we'll talk a lot more about this later in the episode, but let's go with

00:35:45.220 --> 00:35:46.300
a conspiracy theory example.

00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:51.160
When presented with evidence that contradicts a conspiracy theory,

00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.220
believers often discount it by saying the evidence itself is part of the conspiracy.

00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.900
Of course, the government would say that. Or, well, the media is going to cover

00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:00.160
everything up. That's what they don't want you to understand.

00:36:00.680 --> 00:36:03.700
Or an academic example, a student gets a poor grade and discounts it by saying,

00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:04.700
dad, the teacher didn't like me.

00:36:04.940 --> 00:36:07.680
Or this class is just about memorizing things. It's not really about learning.

00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:11.340
Rather than considering, they might actually need to study differently or even ask for help.

00:36:11.600 --> 00:36:15.400
When we can't avoid or reinterpret contradictory evidence, we attack the source itself.

00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:18.600
The messenger becomes the problem rather than the message. And that allows us

00:36:18.600 --> 00:36:22.140
to maintain our beliefs by questioning the credibility of anybody who challenges them.

00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:27.780
Let me share a client story. And again, these stories. I've always had details

00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:29.200
change to protect confidentiality.

00:36:29.720 --> 00:36:33.140
I worked with someone who I think perfectly illustrated how all of these types

00:36:33.140 --> 00:36:34.400
of confirmation bias can work together.

00:36:34.580 --> 00:36:37.180
He came to me and he wanted to grow and see his blind spots.

00:36:37.240 --> 00:36:40.040
I loved it. I was on board. He said, challenge me, Tony.

00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:42.560
He said, I really want to understand where I might be wrong about things.

00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:46.820
So I thought, okay, sure. Here's somebody who appears to be genuinely open to

00:36:46.820 --> 00:36:48.040
feedback and different perspectives.

00:36:48.220 --> 00:36:52.060
Not the normal job of the therapist. I'm right there beside him trying to help

00:36:52.060 --> 00:36:55.600
them find where they want to go. What are the problems and challenges in the way of that?

00:36:56.080 --> 00:36:58.020
He wanted a little bit more like a life coach. Just tell me,

00:36:58.140 --> 00:37:00.480
just let me know, give me the truth, tell me what it is.

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.360
But what happened next was fascinating. And it actually was pretty exhausting

00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.620
when I would offer an alternative viewpoint or presented information that I

00:37:07.620 --> 00:37:10.700
felt very confident about that contradicted something that he believed.

00:37:10.860 --> 00:37:14.800
He immediately responded with my favorite, the yeah, but yeah,

00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:17.920
but followed by a reason why my perspective didn't actually apply to his situation.

00:37:18.060 --> 00:37:20.900
Yeah. But that research was probably done on a different type of people or yeah,

00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:22.520
but you don't understand my circumstances.

00:37:22.600 --> 00:37:25.660
I mean, I know you're just doing your job or yeah, but that might work for some

00:37:25.660 --> 00:37:27.360
people, but that's not what I'm looking for.

00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:30.620
So when I pointed out this pattern, something very interesting happened.

00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.580
He started to recognize that his yeah, but responses were actually a form of

00:37:33.580 --> 00:37:36.980
emotional immaturity, specifically the black and white thinking he had talked about earlier.

00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:39.980
He realized that whenever somebody expressed an opinion different from his,

00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:43.520
his brain automatically interpreted it as they think they are right and I am

00:37:43.520 --> 00:37:45.940
wrong, which felt like a threat to his intelligence and his competence.

00:37:46.460 --> 00:37:48.940
So instead of him being curious about the different perspective,

00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:53.500
he would then impulsively try to regain what is often referred to as the one-up position.

00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:56.780
He'd scramble to find counter arguments, sometimes even make up facts that he

00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:00.960
wasn't sure were true, but that he thought, I could probably find data to back

00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.020
it up just to avoid the feeling like he was losing the intellectual battle.

00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:06.740
Here's where it gets really interesting. When I would present what I thought

00:38:06.740 --> 00:38:12.300
was a valid piece of research or peer-reviewed data, he developed even more

00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:13.840
sophisticated ways to dismiss it.

00:38:14.842 --> 00:38:20.782
This was my favorite. He said to one particular thing that I felt very confident about, a healthy ego.

00:38:20.962 --> 00:38:26.442
I knew because I'd done the work to know, but he said, but do you really honestly

00:38:26.442 --> 00:38:27.342
know what you're saying is true?

00:38:28.062 --> 00:38:31.142
Which then is putting me on the defensive because the answer to that is yes.

00:38:31.982 --> 00:38:34.402
When I would explain my sources or my reasoning, he would say,

00:38:34.542 --> 00:38:37.362
well, you can actually find research to back up anything you want these days.

00:38:37.822 --> 00:38:40.602
So hopefully you can see what was happening. He had created a perfect system

00:38:40.602 --> 00:38:43.222
for getting out of any conversation without having to self-confront.

00:38:43.362 --> 00:38:47.262
He could even walk away from that saying, man, I really appreciate that session.

00:38:47.282 --> 00:38:51.322
I feel so much better about myself because I, turns out I was right about everything.

00:38:52.202 --> 00:38:55.902
So selective search. He only looked for information that supported his existing views.

00:38:56.242 --> 00:39:00.362
Biased interpretation. Any neutral information got filtered through his existing beliefs.

00:39:00.822 --> 00:39:03.742
Selective memory. He would remember the times that he felt right and forget

00:39:03.742 --> 00:39:04.862
the times that he might've been wrong.

00:39:05.042 --> 00:39:08.862
And then discounting. When faced with any kind of contradictory evidence,

00:39:08.862 --> 00:39:11.782
he would attack the credibility of the source and it

00:39:11.782 --> 00:39:15.502
was kind of brilliant to watch actually from a psychological protection standpoint

00:39:15.502 --> 00:39:18.602
because it was also causing him to isolate more

00:39:18.602 --> 00:39:21.462
and more and he found himself seeking out only people and online

00:39:21.462 --> 00:39:25.122
communities and groups who thought exactly the way he did because they

00:39:25.122 --> 00:39:28.042
were the only ones who didn't trigger his defensive responses now the problem

00:39:28.042 --> 00:39:32.602
was those relationships were ultimately unsatisfying he started to realize what

00:39:32.602 --> 00:39:36.962
so many people do well not enough people do that surrounding yourself with yes

00:39:36.962 --> 00:39:41.462
men with people who only agree with him wasn't actually validating. It was lonely.

00:39:41.662 --> 00:39:45.802
He wasn't just connecting with people. He was just collecting these yes men.

00:39:46.102 --> 00:39:49.762
So the breakthrough came when he recognized that his yeah, but wasn't actually

00:39:49.762 --> 00:39:52.662
protecting his intelligence. It was protecting his ego from the discomfort of

00:39:52.662 --> 00:39:53.682
potentially being wrong.

00:39:53.822 --> 00:39:57.322
And that discomfort, that cognitive dissonance was actually the information

00:39:57.322 --> 00:40:01.922
that he needed to start to pay attention to, not something to immediately resolve

00:40:01.922 --> 00:40:03.922
by dismissing other perspectives.

00:40:04.202 --> 00:40:09.382
And I think this so accurately shows how confirmation bias isn't just about being stubborn.

00:40:09.602 --> 00:40:14.902
It is about how our minds systematically process information in ways that protect our existing beliefs.

00:40:15.122 --> 00:40:18.082
And often, most often, we don't even realize it's happening.

00:40:18.750 --> 00:40:22.130
My client thought he was being intellectually rigorous, but he was actually

00:40:22.130 --> 00:40:23.750
being very intellectually defensive.

00:40:24.310 --> 00:40:28.510
So now let me show you how this pattern would play out in a more public context

00:40:28.510 --> 00:40:32.330
that I think most of us have probably witnessed or even experienced ourselves.

00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:36.170
And this does have to do with vaccines, vaccine hesitancy.

00:40:36.370 --> 00:40:39.890
And I am going to use this as our muse, whether you are pro vaccine,

00:40:40.130 --> 00:40:45.250
vaccine hesitant, or somewhere in between. mean, I think it's a very nice way

00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:48.770
to recognize these psychological patterns in action.

00:40:48.910 --> 00:40:53.090
If somebody has developed concerns about vaccines, they would most likely engage

00:40:53.090 --> 00:40:57.090
in exactly the same confirmation bias behaviors that my client was using,

00:40:57.210 --> 00:40:58.850
just applied to a different topic.

00:40:58.990 --> 00:41:02.810
So that selective search, they find themselves gravitating toward anti-vaccine

00:41:02.810 --> 00:41:06.150
websites, testimonials from parents who believe that vaccines harm their kids,

00:41:06.350 --> 00:41:09.730
and alternative health practitioners who then validate those concerns.

00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:14.150
Now, meanwhile, they most likely are avoiding mainstream medical websites or

00:41:14.150 --> 00:41:16.070
CDC information pro-vaccine content.

00:41:16.330 --> 00:41:19.490
Again, not necessarily because they're being deliberately closed-minded,

00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:23.770
but because that information creates that same uncomfortable cognitive dissonance

00:41:23.770 --> 00:41:25.430
that my client was trying to avoid.

00:41:25.890 --> 00:41:30.030
And then you've got biased interpretation. So when their kid gets a fever or

00:41:30.030 --> 00:41:33.030
seems really fussy, especially after a vaccination,

00:41:33.590 --> 00:41:37.330
then they interpret that as evidence that, see, vaccines are harmful,

00:41:37.630 --> 00:41:40.210
instead of considering it might be a normal immune response,

00:41:40.310 --> 00:41:44.990
it could be a coincidence, then that same parent might not care their child's

00:41:44.990 --> 00:41:47.830
good health to the diseases that they've been protected from.

00:41:48.710 --> 00:41:52.990
Selective memory. They vividly remember every story they've heard about people

00:41:52.990 --> 00:41:56.610
who were injured from vaccines or adverse reactions from vaccines,

00:41:56.610 --> 00:42:01.170
even if the statistics about life saved or epidemics prevented or children who

00:42:01.170 --> 00:42:05.610
have been protected seem less memorable or they aren't as emotionally compelling.

00:42:05.890 --> 00:42:09.370
And then you've got that concept of discounting. When presented with data,

00:42:09.550 --> 00:42:13.490
let's say CDC data showing vaccine safety, they immediately dismiss it as that's

00:42:13.490 --> 00:42:15.990
just government propaganda. What else are they going to say?

00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:19.750
When shown peer-reviewed studies, they counter that with, well,

00:42:19.750 --> 00:42:21.990
who pays for that? Big pharma? They fund all the research.

00:42:22.190 --> 00:42:25.290
And just like my client saying, you can find research to support anything.

00:42:25.670 --> 00:42:30.410
They've created a system where no contrary evidence can penetrate those beliefs.

00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:34.350
And just like this client I was talking about, this isn't about being stubborn

00:42:34.350 --> 00:42:37.190
or not necessarily about being unintelligent.

00:42:37.310 --> 00:42:42.910
It is about how our mind systematically processes information in ways that protect our existing beliefs.

00:42:43.170 --> 00:42:47.850
It's our default. Often without us, I would say most often without us realizing it's even happening.

00:42:48.270 --> 00:42:53.150
This is why it takes great patience to build in that pause, to come back into

00:42:53.150 --> 00:42:54.750
this present moment, to be able to

00:42:54.750 --> 00:42:59.210
recognize when I'm jumping into that confirmation bias or cognitive bias.

00:42:59.210 --> 00:43:04.650
If a parent has developed vaccine concerns genuinely and genuinely believes

00:43:04.650 --> 00:43:08.170
they are being a good parent by doing their own research and asking questions,

00:43:08.430 --> 00:43:09.630
they're not trying to be difficult.

00:43:09.750 --> 00:43:13.070
They are trying to protect their child based on what feels true to them.

00:43:13.925 --> 00:43:18.605
But the same psychological mechanisms that kept my client then isolated and

00:43:18.605 --> 00:43:20.385
defensive are at work here too.

00:43:20.585 --> 00:43:24.405
And in so many of the scenarios that we find ourselves in out in the wild,

00:43:24.825 --> 00:43:29.085
the more somebody's vaccine beliefs get challenged, then the more they might

00:43:29.085 --> 00:43:32.905
seek out only the like-minded communities and the more isolated they become

00:43:32.905 --> 00:43:34.905
from people who might offer these different perspectives.

00:43:35.065 --> 00:43:39.265
And I hope we're laying out a case today that most people are not going to self-confront

00:43:39.265 --> 00:43:43.765
and even question whether or not they might not be correct.

00:43:43.925 --> 00:43:48.705
This is why simply presenting facts about things like vaccine safety or any

00:43:48.705 --> 00:43:53.545
of these topics typically doesn't work and sometimes even backfires because

00:43:53.545 --> 00:43:57.465
the person's brain has already created a system for dismissing contradictory information.

00:43:58.125 --> 00:44:01.605
In that scenario, I was going to say they're not looking for truth,

00:44:01.805 --> 00:44:06.745
but to them, it can feel, and I'm sure, not even, I'm sure it is. I know I do this as well.

00:44:07.365 --> 00:44:10.385
I believe I am looking for truth. But are we doing that?

00:44:10.485 --> 00:44:15.465
Are we more looking for confirmation, validation that our protective instincts as a parent are correct?

00:44:16.525 --> 00:44:19.845
And think about how this plays out in our current information environment.

00:44:20.185 --> 00:44:24.185
We can curate our own news sources, our own social media feeds,

00:44:24.485 --> 00:44:27.905
even our own social circles to provide us with a steady stream of information,

00:44:28.425 --> 00:44:30.265
that confirms what we already believe.

00:44:30.585 --> 00:44:34.385
I can, here's my old man get off the lawn moment, but the doggone social media

00:44:34.385 --> 00:44:38.265
and that algorithm, I'll tell you what, right now, I think I'm afraid I'm gonna

00:44:38.265 --> 00:44:41.625
have to take some, I wanna say middle-aged, but I'm getting older in age dance

00:44:41.625 --> 00:44:45.365
class because I watched an old guy dance at his daughter's wedding.

00:44:45.605 --> 00:44:48.805
So now, and me even saying it right now, I'm sure that my phone,

00:44:49.085 --> 00:44:51.625
my iPad, everything's probably loading up even more.

00:44:51.805 --> 00:44:56.145
These ads of, look, this old guy can learn to dance and five minutes every afternoon.

00:44:56.505 --> 00:45:00.725
We can create our own reality bubble. So if we connect these two phenomena,

00:45:00.725 --> 00:45:04.865
we got this Dartmouth-SKAR study, and then we got confirmation bias research.

00:45:05.025 --> 00:45:08.945
And we're going to set the table here, revealing a little bit more information

00:45:08.945 --> 00:45:10.445
about how our minds work.

00:45:10.585 --> 00:45:11.725
Let's first look at these similarities

00:45:11.725 --> 00:45:15.405
between the two. Both involve these expectation driven perceptions.

00:45:15.825 --> 00:45:19.245
In the SKAR study, participants expected to be treated differently. So

00:45:19.245 --> 00:45:23.145
they interpreted even neutral behavior as discriminatory

00:45:23.145 --> 00:45:26.085
with confirmation bias we expect to find

00:45:26.085 --> 00:45:31.085
evidence for our beliefs that is how we are hardwired so we interpret even the

00:45:31.085 --> 00:45:36.665
most ambiguous information as okay i can make that fit into my narrative give

00:45:36.665 --> 00:45:40.025
me this clay and i will mold it into my very own belief and it will make me

00:45:40.025 --> 00:45:43.465
feel better about myself and the things that i am standing for.

00:45:44.200 --> 00:45:48.480
Both create self-reinforcing cycles. The scar study participant's behavior,

00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:53.780
maybe being more defensive or more withdrawn, might have actually then elicited

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:56.080
different responses from the people that they were interacting with,

00:45:56.220 --> 00:45:57.800
kind of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:45:58.140 --> 00:46:01.540
If the person just looks over at me and I think I've got a big scar on my forehead

00:46:01.540 --> 00:46:03.880
and I don't, and I say, what are you looking at?

00:46:04.100 --> 00:46:10.160
Okay, yeah, you want to, the old Pee Wee Herman bit, take a picture, it'll last longer.

00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.600
And the person just had literally glanced over. I mean, that person already

00:46:13.600 --> 00:46:17.200
is now, they're reacting in the moment thinking, okay, weirdo,

00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:19.180
I just literally like looked in that direction.

00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:24.540
Similarly, confirmation bias makes us more confident in our beliefs because,

00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:26.820
holy cow, we keep finding all kinds of evidence for them.

00:46:27.700 --> 00:46:32.740
Both operate largely in the unconscious mind. The participants didn't consciously

00:46:32.740 --> 00:46:34.400
decide to misinterpret social cues.

00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.660
People experiencing confirmation bias aren't usually aware they're filtering information.

00:46:39.560 --> 00:46:42.940
Both feel completely real to the person experiencing them. The participants

00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:47.600
genuinely experienced discrimination. It was what they felt and saw and acknowledged.

00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:51.160
People with strong confirmation bias genuinely believe they're being objective

00:46:51.160 --> 00:46:55.920
and just following the evidence, following the truth, recognizing the big differences.

00:46:56.440 --> 00:47:00.640
The SCAR study was a specific temporary belief in a very controlled setting.

00:47:01.475 --> 00:47:02.955
Now, confirmation bias, that

00:47:02.955 --> 00:47:06.775
affects our entire worldview, and it can be across all areas of our life.

00:47:07.095 --> 00:47:10.915
The SCAR study involved relatively low-stakes social interactions,

00:47:10.915 --> 00:47:15.795
but then confirmation bias can involve our most fundamental beliefs about reality,

00:47:16.135 --> 00:47:19.355
morality, religion, community, identity.

00:47:19.875 --> 00:47:26.055
And while the SCAR study lasted just a few hours, confirmation bias is happening

00:47:26.055 --> 00:47:29.215
in real time, I want to say all the time.

00:47:29.755 --> 00:47:34.455
It can shape our thinking for decades, for our lives. So you've got this emotional

00:47:34.455 --> 00:47:37.015
investment. The SCAR study did create some temporary discomfort.

00:47:37.335 --> 00:47:41.215
The reason I think these differences, these similarities are so powerful is

00:47:41.215 --> 00:47:45.175
because you can see these things on a small scale and you might walk away today

00:47:45.175 --> 00:47:46.295
and think, oh, that is interesting.

00:47:46.675 --> 00:47:51.575
But then this confirmation bias concept is something that is happening in real time at all times.

00:47:51.855 --> 00:47:54.935
So it does take more work to be more aware of it.

00:47:55.695 --> 00:47:58.935
Confirmation bias is going to protect your beliefs that are central to your

00:47:58.935 --> 00:48:00.355
identity and your sense of meaning.

00:48:01.015 --> 00:48:04.375
Another thing I find fascinating by this whole experience is in some ways,

00:48:04.495 --> 00:48:08.795
then our strongly held beliefs then function like invisible scars.

00:48:09.355 --> 00:48:12.895
They change how we perceive the world, how we interpret others' actions,

00:48:13.055 --> 00:48:14.635
and how we navigate social situations.

00:48:14.795 --> 00:48:18.995
But that difference is that those scars are often invisible to us,

00:48:18.995 --> 00:48:24.415
us too. We're operating off of this reactive way that we're trying to make sense

00:48:24.415 --> 00:48:25.975
of the world to make us feel better.

00:48:26.255 --> 00:48:31.255
And we're looking for ways to confirm the beliefs that we just have come upon.

00:48:31.635 --> 00:48:36.255
Or beliefs that were handed to us over time from our family,

00:48:36.495 --> 00:48:40.395
from our community, from our political beliefs, from our parents.

00:48:40.395 --> 00:48:45.475
There are so many variables that go into the default mode settings that we have

00:48:45.475 --> 00:48:50.235
with our beliefs, our values, our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions,

00:48:50.235 --> 00:48:52.955
and that's just to be accepted.

00:48:53.155 --> 00:48:55.275
Those are there. So now what do we do with them?

00:48:55.495 --> 00:49:00.635
Are we open to change, to self-confrontation, to critical thinking? Yeah.

00:49:01.304 --> 00:49:05.584
When somebody challenges our political beliefs, we don't just disagree with their argument.

00:49:05.804 --> 00:49:10.244
We might perceive them as attacking our intelligence, our values, or our identity.

00:49:10.564 --> 00:49:12.024
When somebody questions our religious

00:49:12.024 --> 00:49:15.344
beliefs, we might interpret that as persecution or discrimination.

00:49:16.024 --> 00:49:20.084
And just like the participants in the SCAR study, we're not making that up.

00:49:20.184 --> 00:49:21.504
It is our genuine experience.

00:49:21.864 --> 00:49:24.104
That's how we're seeing the world, through the lens of our beliefs.

00:49:24.464 --> 00:49:28.164
You don't know what you don't know, and that is powerful.

00:49:28.684 --> 00:49:32.324
The participants in the scar study didn't know that they didn't know that they had no scar.

00:49:34.104 --> 00:49:37.764
Similarly, just like we often don't know what we don't know about our own confirmation

00:49:37.764 --> 00:49:40.924
biases, our own invisible scars, our own ways of filtering reality.

00:49:41.324 --> 00:49:45.404
And this is why approaching belief change with humility is really important.

00:49:45.844 --> 00:49:50.084
We might be absolutely certain about something and still be wrong. And that's okay.

00:49:50.264 --> 00:49:53.684
It's part of being human. It's the very first time you are you going through

00:49:53.684 --> 00:49:56.124
life as you in the moment right now.

00:49:56.284 --> 00:49:59.464
You're listening to this. You are a combination of so many different variables,

00:50:00.144 --> 00:50:03.204
nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hope,

00:50:03.344 --> 00:50:06.464
fears, attachment wounds, experiences of loss, financial circumstances,

00:50:06.864 --> 00:50:09.584
everything else that makes you uniquely you.

00:50:09.804 --> 00:50:14.184
So why is it then so difficult for people to change their minds or look at things

00:50:14.184 --> 00:50:17.144
from a different perspective or try to understand someone else's experiences?

00:50:17.144 --> 00:50:22.924
Well, first, we have to acknowledge that we have a continually running psychological

00:50:22.924 --> 00:50:26.384
protection system in our brains at all times.

00:50:26.484 --> 00:50:29.344
At its core, our brain is a don't get killed device.

00:50:29.424 --> 00:50:35.564
It's designed for survival, not really for finding truth or being accurate about reality.

00:50:35.804 --> 00:50:38.704
It just wants to continue to exist.

00:50:39.004 --> 00:50:44.784
And so scary things may get it killed. So it wants to find comfort and safety

00:50:44.784 --> 00:50:46.364
and certainty and security.

00:50:47.342 --> 00:50:50.842
Think about that in the context of this SCAR study. Those participants weren't

00:50:50.842 --> 00:50:52.742
lying when they reported feeling discriminated against.

00:50:52.882 --> 00:50:57.762
Their brain was genuinely interpreting neutral social cues as threats because

00:50:57.762 --> 00:51:00.082
they believe they had this visible flaw.

00:51:00.282 --> 00:51:04.622
And that psychological protection system kicks in, scans the environment and

00:51:04.622 --> 00:51:06.262
says, hey, we're vulnerable here.

00:51:06.742 --> 00:51:09.882
People could reject us. This whole SCAR thing, they'll exclude us.

00:51:10.142 --> 00:51:11.462
They'll treat us as less than.

00:51:11.762 --> 00:51:14.742
Sounds pretty dangerous. Before you know it, we're going to be booted out of

00:51:14.742 --> 00:51:17.722
the group and where are those saber-toothed tigers? That's dangerous.

00:51:18.302 --> 00:51:21.322
Now, you may think, Tony, we are not living in the Stone Age anymore.

00:51:21.822 --> 00:51:24.602
Social rejection isn't life-threatening. But here's the thing.

00:51:24.802 --> 00:51:30.162
Our brain is this organ, this facilitator of lots of amazing things.

00:51:30.302 --> 00:51:32.082
But it's just trying to live.

00:51:32.382 --> 00:51:35.222
Our brains actually have not caught up with modern reality.

00:51:35.562 --> 00:51:38.522
For our ancestors, being rejected by the tribe meant death.

00:51:38.722 --> 00:51:41.422
If you were cast out from the group, you couldn't survive on your own.

00:51:41.422 --> 00:51:47.442
So our brains evolved to treat social threats like being seen as wrong or stupid

00:51:47.442 --> 00:51:52.662
or different as existential threats, life-threatening things that we must deal with.

00:51:52.822 --> 00:51:55.902
This is why confirmation bias exists in the first place. When somebody challenges

00:51:55.902 --> 00:51:59.422
those beliefs, especially the ones, again, that are core, our identity,

00:51:59.642 --> 00:52:02.462
our brain doesn't just hear, I disagree with your opinion.

00:52:02.782 --> 00:52:06.482
It hears, you're wrong, which means you're not smart, which means you don't

00:52:06.482 --> 00:52:09.402
belong, which means you're in danger and you're going to get kicked out of the

00:52:09.402 --> 00:52:12.002
group. And the next thing you know, and our pet's heads are falling off and

00:52:12.002 --> 00:52:14.122
everything's going bad.

00:52:14.702 --> 00:52:17.482
At its simplest level, any threat, even verbal disagreement,

00:52:17.782 --> 00:52:21.502
triggers the same ancient alarm system that once helped our ancestors survive

00:52:21.502 --> 00:52:24.522
actual physical dangers. That's why we're here today, why we're listening.

00:52:25.042 --> 00:52:29.462
The threat must be neutralized and attacked. And this is why we see people become

00:52:29.462 --> 00:52:33.422
so emotionally dysregulated when these beliefs, political, religious,

00:52:33.682 --> 00:52:34.982
et cetera, are challenged.

00:52:35.182 --> 00:52:38.002
Their brain is screaming. look old man

00:52:38.002 --> 00:52:41.662
this person is threatening our very survival so that

00:52:41.662 --> 00:52:44.662
client example earlier when that client responded with well yeah but

00:52:44.662 --> 00:52:47.882
everything he wasn't just being intellectually stubborn

00:52:47.882 --> 00:52:52.042
his psychological protection system was activated his brain was interpreting

00:52:52.042 --> 00:52:55.402
my alternative perspectives as threats to his competence his intelligence his

00:52:55.402 --> 00:52:59.262
sense of being right which to his unconscious mind felt like threats to his

00:52:59.262 --> 00:53:03.202
social standing and ultimately his survival the same thing happens when we're

00:53:03.202 --> 00:53:06.902
talking about vaccine hesitancy political beliefs or any deeply held conviction.

00:53:07.122 --> 00:53:11.242
When we present contradictory evidence, we're not just challenging somebody's

00:53:11.242 --> 00:53:14.702
ideas, we're inadvertently activating their threat detection system.

00:53:15.102 --> 00:53:17.602
We're telling them that they are wrong and we are right.

00:53:18.042 --> 00:53:21.442
Their brain says, if I'm wrong about this important thing, what does that say

00:53:21.442 --> 00:53:24.262
about my judgment, my intelligence, my ability to protect my family?

00:53:24.322 --> 00:53:26.842
All of a sudden, my spouse is going to leave, my kids are...

00:53:26.842 --> 00:53:29.422
You can see we just quickly just devolve.

00:53:30.778 --> 00:53:34.118
Let's get to one of my favorite concepts here. It's called the backfire effect.

00:53:34.638 --> 00:53:38.818
When the backfire effect happens, when the threat feels big enough,

00:53:39.018 --> 00:53:42.118
the brain doesn't just dismiss the contradictory information.

00:53:42.378 --> 00:53:47.118
Oh no, it now has to go double down on the original belief as a way of restoring

00:53:47.118 --> 00:53:49.418
the sense of safety and competence that it once felt.

00:53:50.038 --> 00:53:53.898
But understanding this changes everything about how we approach conversations

00:53:53.898 --> 00:53:55.858
with people who see the world differently than we do.

00:53:55.978 --> 00:53:58.818
We're not just dealing with different opinions. We're dealing with activated

00:53:58.818 --> 00:54:03.738
threat protection systems and adorable egos that are protecting and being the

00:54:03.738 --> 00:54:06.258
security guard of your own sense of self.

00:54:07.038 --> 00:54:11.318
And those are genuinely trying to keep people safe, even when the danger is

00:54:11.318 --> 00:54:14.298
just about being wrong about something or having a different opinion.

00:54:14.818 --> 00:54:18.198
It's fascinating if you think about it, of how our minds have evolved these

00:54:18.198 --> 00:54:22.598
elaborate systems to even protect our beliefs, especially the ones that are

00:54:22.598 --> 00:54:23.538
central to our identity.

00:54:23.538 --> 00:54:26.818
From an evolutionary perspective if our ancestors constantly

00:54:26.818 --> 00:54:29.678
question every belief and then change their minds at

00:54:29.678 --> 00:54:32.558
the first sign of contradictory evidence we would

00:54:32.558 --> 00:54:35.718
probably not be here listening because so often

00:54:35.718 --> 00:54:40.118
especially for them sticking with what you believe even if it's not perfectly

00:54:40.118 --> 00:54:45.378
accurate is safer than constantly changing your mind this is part of why we

00:54:45.378 --> 00:54:50.178
have an emotional immaturity epidemic and why the need to become more emotionally

00:54:50.178 --> 00:54:53.118
mature is there because there's so much information.

00:54:53.298 --> 00:54:55.298
Our brains are going crazy just trying to survive.

00:54:56.418 --> 00:55:02.058
Let me give a few examples to show how our minds evolved to protect beliefs for our survival.

00:55:02.218 --> 00:55:07.238
So if we look at this as a survival-based belief protection, predator avoidance.

00:55:07.398 --> 00:55:11.118
If your ancestor heard rustling in the bushes and believed, I think that's a predator.

00:55:11.458 --> 00:55:18.118
It was far better to stick with that belief and run, even if it was just the wind 99% of the time.

00:55:18.678 --> 00:55:21.918
If there was an ancestor who constantly questioned this belief and thought,

00:55:22.078 --> 00:55:26.058
you know what, maybe, maybe I should investigate that rustling in the grass

00:55:26.058 --> 00:55:29.998
just to be sure they would most likely eventually encounter the 1% where it

00:55:29.998 --> 00:55:31.418
actually was a predator and they would die.

00:55:32.038 --> 00:55:36.778
Better to be wrong and alive than right and dead. And if my daughter cuts that

00:55:36.778 --> 00:55:39.218
up for social media, I hope that we get the full context of that.

00:55:40.078 --> 00:55:43.078
Let's look at food safety. Somebody in your tribe got sick after eating certain

00:55:43.078 --> 00:55:45.498
berries. It was, it was evolutionary.

00:55:45.878 --> 00:55:50.858
It was evolutionarily advantageous to develop a strong belief that those berries

00:55:50.858 --> 00:55:52.798
are dangerous they made grog die,

00:55:53.941 --> 00:55:57.761
And so I do not want to be grog, so I will stay away from those berries.

00:55:58.121 --> 00:56:01.781
Now, if there was a person who constantly questioned that belief and thought,

00:56:02.301 --> 00:56:06.181
well, it's been a few weeks, maybe the berries are fine now,

00:56:06.621 --> 00:56:10.601
they would eventually eat the wrong ones and die. RIP grog.

00:56:11.521 --> 00:56:17.081
Tribal loyalty. Our ancestors who strongly believed their tribe was good and

00:56:17.081 --> 00:56:20.741
other tribes were dangerous were more likely to stick with their protective group and defend it.

00:56:20.741 --> 00:56:24.441
Those who constantly question whether their tribe was really the best one might

00:56:24.441 --> 00:56:27.341
have wandered off alone or even been less committed to group defense.

00:56:28.141 --> 00:56:32.221
And now let me bring this into the modern world. This belief protection still operates.

00:56:32.881 --> 00:56:36.741
Medical adherence. When somebody finds a doctor they trust, they tend to stick

00:56:36.741 --> 00:56:40.761
with that doctor and start to feel or maybe adopt their belief system,

00:56:40.881 --> 00:56:44.781
even if they are presented with contradictory medical advice at some point down the road.

00:56:45.001 --> 00:56:48.861
This is protective. that constantly switching medical philosophies could lead

00:56:48.861 --> 00:56:52.681
to inconsistent care and then eventually some dangerous interactions and you die.

00:56:53.321 --> 00:56:56.641
Parenting beliefs. Parents develop very strong beliefs about what's best for

00:56:56.641 --> 00:57:01.241
their kids. Breast versus bottle feeding, co-sleeping versus cribs, cry it out versus not.

00:57:02.141 --> 00:57:05.661
Constantly changing those beliefs based on every new study or every new reel

00:57:05.661 --> 00:57:11.001
would create chaos and inconsistency that could actually be a challenge to the child.

00:57:11.401 --> 00:57:14.201
And I want to say, don't get me started in the world of finances.

00:57:14.441 --> 00:57:15.701
That's a challenge in and of itself.

00:57:15.861 --> 00:57:18.921
But somebody who believes the stock market's a little too risky might stick

00:57:18.921 --> 00:57:20.041
with the conservative investments.

00:57:20.201 --> 00:57:23.581
While they might miss some gains, they also avoid potential devastating losses

00:57:23.581 --> 00:57:28.721
that could come from constantly changing investment strategies based on market news.

00:57:28.961 --> 00:57:33.861
There are times that this psychological protection system does become problematic.

00:57:34.201 --> 00:57:36.801
Let's talk political identity. One of these high charge topics,

00:57:36.921 --> 00:57:40.721
our ancestors needed very strong tribal loyalty for survival.

00:57:40.941 --> 00:57:45.361
But now the same mechanism, it can make us resist political information that

00:57:45.361 --> 00:57:49.861
challenges our party affiliation, even when changing our mind might lead to

00:57:49.861 --> 00:57:51.061
a better policy outcome.

00:57:51.381 --> 00:57:55.361
I work with people often that will talk about when they vote,

00:57:55.361 --> 00:57:57.041
it is the straight party line.

00:57:57.301 --> 00:58:01.801
And I will often just out of curiosity, ask if they're aware of the things that

00:58:01.801 --> 00:58:03.601
they're voting for other than the candidates.

00:58:04.081 --> 00:58:07.421
And I would say the number one answer is no, I haven't really had time,

00:58:07.561 --> 00:58:11.081
but I believe it's an all or nothing thing with my political party.

00:58:11.621 --> 00:58:15.681
If we look at religious beliefs, the certainty that helped our ancestors maintain

00:58:15.681 --> 00:58:17.961
social cohesion, a moral structure,

00:58:18.221 --> 00:58:22.361
they can now prevent us from updating our understanding when we're presented

00:58:22.361 --> 00:58:25.841
with new information or philosophical information, scientific information,

00:58:26.041 --> 00:58:28.501
historical data, health behaviors.

00:58:28.701 --> 00:58:31.801
Somebody might stick with the belief that I'm healthy enough and resist information

00:58:31.801 --> 00:58:35.901
about diet or exercise changes because constantly questioning our health status

00:58:35.901 --> 00:58:40.861
might create more anxiety and decision paralysis and yo-yo dieting and all kinds

00:58:40.861 --> 00:58:41.961
of things that would just.

00:58:42.824 --> 00:58:46.984
Potentially cause more anxiety. Look at professional identity.

00:58:47.184 --> 00:58:51.544
A doctor or a therapist who has practiced a certain way for 20 years might resist

00:58:51.544 --> 00:58:55.144
new treatment protocols because constantly questioning their expertise,

00:58:55.144 --> 00:58:58.744
they may feel that that would undermine their confidence or their effectiveness.

00:58:59.464 --> 00:59:03.644
And I recently had a client who I love, one of my favorites,

00:59:03.884 --> 00:59:08.724
ask me when I will figure things out because they've been with me for a long

00:59:08.724 --> 00:59:11.704
time and we've gone through four pillars of a connected conversation.

00:59:11.804 --> 00:59:15.024
They've been with me long enough where there are only three pillars and attachment

00:59:15.024 --> 00:59:21.904
theory and avoidant and anxious and needing validation and discomfort and safety and you name it.

00:59:22.524 --> 00:59:26.344
And she said, yeah, when are you going to figure it out so that I don't have

00:59:26.344 --> 00:59:28.024
to keep learning? I can lock in.

00:59:28.364 --> 00:59:31.364
And I just said, man, I so hear you.

00:59:31.704 --> 00:59:37.424
Never, I hope, because I want to continually learn and evolve as I am learning and evolving.

00:59:37.964 --> 00:59:43.364
There's a part of this that I refer to in my mind as the better safe than sorry principle.

00:59:43.844 --> 00:59:48.984
And I think that also plays into why it can be so difficult to change our mind

00:59:48.984 --> 00:59:50.124
or definitely somebody else's.

00:59:50.604 --> 00:59:52.704
Here's a few examples there. Let's look in the dating world.

00:59:52.804 --> 00:59:56.184
If somebody believes their partner might be cheating based on limited evidence,

00:59:56.184 --> 01:00:01.764
it might be safer to maintain suspicion than to completely trust and potentially

01:00:01.764 --> 01:00:05.844
be betrayed and heaven forbid, have an uncomfortable or difficult conversation.

01:00:06.204 --> 01:00:09.624
Or look at job security. An employee might believe their job is at risk and

01:00:09.624 --> 01:00:13.744
work extra hard, even if the evidence is ambiguous, because being wrong about

01:00:13.744 --> 01:00:17.444
job security is less costly than being wrong about job safety.

01:00:18.084 --> 01:00:21.864
If you look at home security, a lot of people maintain beliefs about neighborhood

01:00:21.864 --> 01:00:24.844
safety that maybe err on the side of caution.

01:00:25.024 --> 01:00:27.924
Better to believe your neighborhood is a little bit dangerous and take precautions

01:00:27.924 --> 01:00:30.644
than to believe it is safe and then become a victim.

01:00:30.924 --> 01:00:34.964
There's also a cost of constant belief or vision. It can be decision paralysis.

01:00:35.204 --> 01:00:38.304
Imagine if every morning you had to question whether or not am I brushing my

01:00:38.304 --> 01:00:39.764
teeth today or not? I got to figure this out.

01:00:40.164 --> 01:00:42.964
What am I going to do for breakfast? And what's the best thing for breakfast?

01:00:43.064 --> 01:00:44.864
And I don't want to get anything wrong for breakfast.

01:00:44.984 --> 01:00:49.084
And whether the route to work is actually optimal. Should I be looking at different routes to work?

01:00:50.024 --> 01:00:55.884
Constantly revising basic beliefs or activities would tend to make daily functioning difficult.

01:00:56.304 --> 01:01:00.564
It could cause anxiety. It might even develop into almost a ritualistic OCD-like

01:01:00.564 --> 01:01:04.104
behavior pattern that is there in hopes of avoiding anxiety.

01:01:04.144 --> 01:01:07.324
So, we're doing this even in areas we're not even aware of.

01:01:07.604 --> 01:01:12.124
So, rather than lean in and embrace the discomfort or learn more about psychological

01:01:12.124 --> 01:01:16.024
flexibility and begin to take pleasure in just being in the individual moment

01:01:16.024 --> 01:01:20.044
when the world then is a mystery right in front of you, ready to explore rather

01:01:20.044 --> 01:01:22.584
than to fear, and look at your social relationships.

01:01:22.584 --> 01:01:24.024
If you constantly question whether

01:01:24.024 --> 01:01:26.364
your friends really like you or whether your family cared about you.

01:01:27.061 --> 01:01:30.301
It would be really difficult to form a stable, trusting relationship because

01:01:30.301 --> 01:01:33.501
you're continually just wondering and ruminating and worrying and trying to

01:01:33.501 --> 01:01:34.841
read the room and figure things out.

01:01:35.481 --> 01:01:40.121
Or I look at this in the realm of professional competence. A surgeon who constantly

01:01:40.121 --> 01:01:43.021
questions their training and their abilities might hesitate during critical

01:01:43.021 --> 01:01:48.801
moments when things like confidence, petition, quick action are necessary for a patient survival.

01:01:49.501 --> 01:01:53.021
I will end part one here. There is so much more to cover. We're going to get

01:01:53.021 --> 01:01:58.141
into a little bit of a modern paradox about the systems that kept us alive,

01:01:58.321 --> 01:02:02.001
our ancestors alive, in maintaining useful beliefs.

01:02:03.041 --> 01:02:05.981
Now we're causing us to feel a little more stuck. We're going to cover that

01:02:05.981 --> 01:02:08.001
and a whole lot more on part two.

01:02:08.201 --> 01:02:11.941
But I'll end talking about this professional competence.

01:02:12.121 --> 01:02:17.121
I had my surgery follow-up, my four-month follow-up surgical appointment for

01:02:17.121 --> 01:02:20.941
my ACDF spinal surgery, which is doing amazing.

01:02:20.941 --> 01:02:23.861
It's pain-free back to running walking

01:02:23.861 --> 01:02:26.961
push-ups are a little more difficult than i thought but i

01:02:26.961 --> 01:02:29.801
feel a little something in my throat at

01:02:29.801 --> 01:02:32.581
times when i move certain ways and i even thought is this something that

01:02:32.581 --> 01:02:37.061
i was experiencing before and now i'm just aware of it and i'm trying to make

01:02:37.061 --> 01:02:41.541
meaning of it so i wasn't even at first going to ask my surgeon if it really

01:02:41.541 --> 01:02:46.481
was a thing i love this and i recorded it so that i could go back and see if

01:02:46.481 --> 01:02:50.821
my memory was accurate but i said I'm feeling this thing in my neck.

01:02:50.961 --> 01:02:54.401
It's probably my head. And he confidently said, Oh no, that is absolutely happening.

01:02:54.641 --> 01:02:58.661
He talked about scar tissue. We gave this analogy of in the neck or the throat

01:02:58.661 --> 01:03:00.101
that it's like a spider web.

01:03:00.281 --> 01:03:03.861
So it kind of moves and you can't really grasp it, but then to go in and try

01:03:03.861 --> 01:03:08.981
to address it would then cause more scar tissue. So it's there, accept it.

01:03:09.281 --> 01:03:15.001
And I just, I appreciated his confidence and I appreciated his competence and

01:03:15.001 --> 01:03:16.481
I'm creating a bit of a narrative,

01:03:16.481 --> 01:03:21.521
but I'm grateful that he has continued to learn and hone his craft and be aware

01:03:21.521 --> 01:03:26.041
of things that maybe he doesn't know that he doesn't know in order to show up

01:03:26.041 --> 01:03:27.581
with that kind of confidence and presence.

01:03:28.221 --> 01:03:31.661
All right. Thanks for joining me today. If you have thoughts or questions about

01:03:31.661 --> 01:03:35.581
part one, feel free to email me or go through my website, TonyOverbay.com.

01:03:35.881 --> 01:03:40.781
And I would love any of your own experiences of any of the concepts we're talking

01:03:40.781 --> 01:03:43.841
about today, trying to change somebody else's mind or how difficult maybe it

01:03:43.841 --> 01:03:44.741
has been to change your mind.

01:03:44.821 --> 01:03:47.561
I would really love an example or two or as many as

01:03:47.561 --> 01:03:50.541
you're willing to send of what was a major

01:03:50.541 --> 01:03:56.581
belief change for you and how did that come about so send those in and let me

01:03:56.581 --> 01:04:00.761
know if you're open to me sharing those on a future episode and going out as

01:04:00.761 --> 01:04:04.681
per usual the wonderful the talented aurora florence because i'm telling you

01:04:04.681 --> 01:04:08.781
it can be whatever it is have a great week we'll see you next week,

01:04:15.881 --> 01:04:16.301
of the day.

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:44.689
Music.