Okay. It's going. Is it going? We're horrible marketers. Is that fair?
We're not. I wouldn't say we're horrible marketers. Well, I thought you said
we're horrible markers.
Markers, maybe. We're not markers. If there was anything, and this would be,
oh, let me clean my glasses with this thing that you can buy on the store.
But I don't know if you can, quite frankly. But it is kind of an amazing gadget.
But you don't wear glasses.
Tony wouldn't know because he doesn't look at any of the people that are trying
to brand with that. What is it called?
Collab. That's what the kids say. My bad. Yeah. Hey, thank you.
For those who have reached out and have wanted to partner with us,
Sydney looked at the messages a couple nights ago, and apparently you should
probably look at them more than every couple months. We're going to look at those. But welcome.
I am your friendly marriage and family therapist, and I am here with my wonderful
daughter, Sydney. I lost my phone. Okay.
You took it out with you when you went outside to the car. Oh,
are you going to go check it out? No.
Okay. It's weird. Okay. I say, cause that's, is that weird? That was like the
first time you ever lost your phone. Was that, was that an odd experience?
Yeah. That was like really unlike me. How many times a day do you think you lose your phone?
I've never, I just don't ever know where it is ever. Yeah. That.
And then honestly, what's your, what percentage power are you on? 82 actually.
So doing big things. Okay. All right. That's fine. You know,
it's funny. And I don't think that I have, I can say I can diagnose myself as
a mental health professional.
I know that I do not have OCD, but people will sometimes show me screenshots
of texts when they're having arguments with their spouse or partner.
And then I will immediately focus on, okay, why don't you keep your phone charged
more than 5%? Because what if there's an emergency?
Because I will see that often. So it's not just you, Sid.
No, I'm saying when somebody shares their phone with me or they send me screenshots
and they're saying, hey, I want to talk about this this week in therapy.
Can you look at this exchange that I had with my spouse? And then the first
thing I go to is, what percentage is their battery?
And I don't know. I don't know if I'm making judgments. I mean,
I can't. I am probably making judgments. You're judging me because I don't charge
my phone? I know. I'm used to you not charging your phone.
That means nothing. There's no judgment. So we are here to answer your mental health questions.
I am not your therapist, but I would love to hear what you have going on.
And I would love to expound on that, offer some general advice.
But again, I'm not your therapist. I hope that you will all go find a wonderful
therapist that you connect with.
And I have something to open tonight with today. This is the afternoon.
We're trying this on a Saturday afternoon and we're normally doing this at night
and this might be the first daytime that we've ever done.
Did you talk to me? Yeah. What? Oh, I just said this might be the first time
we've done this in the day. Yeah, I think so. I'm kind of excited.
And for anybody who is new, I am a marriage and family therapist.
I've been doing couples therapy for almost 20 years, and I actually very much
enjoy couples therapy. So I'd love your questions if you are in a relationship.
It doesn't have to be married. Long-time relationship, new relationship.
Also, we can talk about general mental health. I, as well as my daughter Sydney,
are card carry members of the ADHD fan club. So we can address things about ADHD.
And I also work a lot in the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies and
emotionally immature behaviors.
Also, faith journey, faith deconstruction, faith crisis.
So, we'd love to have your questions. Sydney's going to be manning the questions.
I think I'll bring them up here.
Womaning, personing the questions. That's kind of funny. Do you take offense
to those kind of things, Syd?
Sometimes, when I'm just feeling like having fun. Okay.
So, I wonder though, So I wonder if Manning even has an origin story of a guy
doing it or if it is just a word.
I don't know. Yeah. And I am not going to Google it. But I have something that
I think I can start off with tonight that is our muse.
And I don't think I talked about this a few nights ago. And if I did,
I'm imagining maybe you had forgotten anyway. That's not meant. Whoa.
Do we talk about the Dartmouth SCAR study? No. Okay. I don't know. Okay.
I've got a podcast coming out on the virtual couch this week.
It's the one that you have told me. And it was great advice.
Do not go and rerecord, old man.
Just go with what brought you here. But I started off with, this is really,
really interesting. So I would love your thoughts on this.
So in 1980, there was a psychologist and he conducted an experiment at Dartmouth College.
And students were told that they were participating in a study about how people
with facial scars were treated in their social interactions, their everyday lives.
The researchers brought in a professional makeup artist and they gave them a
really big graphic scar on their face. Harry Potter.
That's the first thing I think of too. I can't lie. I really can't. That's funny.
And i but this was in 1980 before harry potter so no one probably had the lightning
bolt scar also pause yeah anyone who's listening did i put a filter on him on
accident what do i look like like you're from the olden days okay i don't know
how i feel you're just old no i'm just kidding i don't know how i feel about
this i feel like you look like dark here look at my phone okay,
doesn't that look weird.
But i look normal you can't tell oh no now i
do oh yeah okay wait i've even got the back camera hannah
what's hey hannah okay why why
do i look like uh i don't
really know okay here you go so i don't
either i could like fix up like before
it goes on youtube but i don't it's okay i don't know how i
did you know what people don't come to see me to stare.
At a model looking therapist they come for
the advice is that that's where
you're supposed to go oh my gosh no you look great no you look
beautiful tony oh thanks don't worry i look great
right here yeah you do well i was gonna say that too and i was like
okay i don't want to sound creepy or anything okay and i'm gonna
pull up here as well i want to be able to see what
people say as well so we're gonna do that okay but
this is a scar study though said so this professional makeup artist puts a
scar on somebody's face and it's a very dramatic scar and
then what they're told is that they're going to go interact with people
and they're going to report back of what it felt like
to have people judge and discriminate them so much because
of this big scar so you following okay now
here's where it gets very interesting the makeup artist then right before
the people went out then the makeup artist said hey i need
to put some setting powder is that still a thing yes okay
so i'm gonna put some setting powder to make sure the scar looks realistic so it
won't smudge when you're interacting with people what the participants did
not know is that the touch-up artist then removed the scar entirely but
then the people didn't know that so they went out into the
world and they thought they had a big old scar and so
then they're interacting with people believing they had this visible facial
scar when in reality they looked completely normal to everybody encountered
how did they not like pass by a window i know and i think the same thing sorry
i'm really annoying with this kind of stuff but i thought the same thing my
first thought was jokes then my next thought was like okay setting powder versus
wiping a complete scar off my face but that is not the point, Sid.
And what do you want to see it? That'd be cool. I would want to see what I look
like. But they did. And then they're like, oh, hang on, a little touch up powder.
And then that's where I don't know setting powder. Does it feel like somebody's
wiping a complete washcloth across your face?
But that is not the point of the story, Sid. Okay.
Okay. But so the people that they believe they had these scars,
they reported that they were treated incredibly differently because they perceived
stares and awkward interactions.
And they interpreted that as being discriminated because of these facial scars.
They felt judged and marginalized. And they felt like they were responded to
that it was clear evidence that people discriminated against them
because of the scar but there wasn't a scar your perception
is your reality absolutely yeah and it's just
a trip so where i went with that with this podcast is that
our beliefs about ourselves and our circumstances are so
powerful that they will shape our reality and you can even look at this all
the way down to the way that we talk to ourself and this is why i think i don't
know in our home i often when somebody's saying i'm so dumb or and i'm saying
that is not very helpful let's go check this out this is what I'm thinking versus
don't say that about my friend that's right okay exactly oh wait did somebody
send something in the comments or are you talking to me.
What? No. Okay. But if you think about this, they weren't people who were lying to make things up.
They were experiencing their reality through this lens where they thought people were judging them.
I think it requires you to be kind to yourself and the way you think about yourself.
And it's funny because what you said, I jotted that down in my outline of the cliche,
your perception is your reality, even if it's to your detriment,
or if it's to the detriment of a loved one or a relationship or an ideology
or a belief system or religion, because we're so hardwired to create meaning,
which I think that's pretty fascinating.
And we want to know, we want certainty, we got to create meaning and we want
to avoid uncomfortable things.
So you can see how powerful the mind
can be in just creating all kinds of narratives to make us feel better.
And so then the rest of the podcast goes about talking about how that's why
I think it's so hard to change people's beliefs.
And I know that we can make the argument of, well, I should not necessarily
be trying to change someone else's beliefs. But what if their beliefs are kind
of silly? But I mean, who's to say that their beliefs are silly?
I feel like you just have to live as your most authentic self.
And then anyone who is ready to change when they see that, they'll change.
You know what I mean? And I think that is the goal.
The thing that's interesting is when you say that, though, my first thought
goes to what if you're in a relationship or friendship with people who are unwilling
to think critically or even admit the fact that they may not be correct in what they're experiencing?
And that might sound like, well, why do they need to know that it's incorrect?
But what if what they are doing or saying is affecting or harming other people?
Yeah. It's like that thing where people can only meet you as far as they are.
Yeah. So, you know? Yeah. Wait, do I just swipe?
Oh. No.
I was going to say, if there's somebody that knows, then maybe they can...
Should I just end it and start it again really quick?
I don't know. I think we're good. Well, what do you think? I think that we're
going to end it and start it again really quick. Really?
Okay. So, will people come right back? I'm going to make you move back really
mad. Okay. Yeah, don't... Right back.
Okay, profile. Now, why is Jesus over here? Wait, what do you mean? Don't worry about it.
Wait, what are you seeing? It's fine. It's not you. It's me.
I don't know. Okay. I'm just going to, it's not that bad.
Do I look different though? No, you look fine. Okay. You're very kind.
I hope that people that come back that we're here because we had a couple of good questions.
There was a guy named Horatio that had asked a question about needing a license.
Oh, okay. The camera just twisted a little bit. Wait, whoa. It's like,
I'm getting seasick a little. What are you talking? I just adjusted it. Okay.
What I'm watching here, it's behind the time. It's behind the times.
Okay. And let me just, let me tell your mom.
That sounds like a funny cut, right? that we started so come on i was texting
your mom right now too you were oh oh wow i love you wow.
Okay that that you know it's fun though you're the first person that's done
one of those jokes that i could hit you with that i'm ashamed okay hey everybody
um i'll just i'll just leave no Oh, that was,
so there's not a lot of people here right now, but yeah, my mom passed away
about a week and a half ago.
So Sydney just made your mom joke.
It's pretty good though. No, that's like the first, I mean, it was nice.
There we go. Okay. Xavier says licensed therapist, author, speaker, and podcast host.
Right before we had to end so that we could get better lighting,
I think Xavier had said, do you need a license for those things?
So licensed therapist. Yes. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
You don't need a license for any other things. Author, write a book,
speaker, find somebody who will say, come talk to me.
And then podcast host. As I think we all well know, anybody can start a podcast
for better or worse. And anybody will.
Anybody, anybody can do that. You shouldn't. Yeah. But the licensing process
to be a therapist was a get your bachelor's degree, get your master's degree,
do 3000 hours of clinical work under a licensed clinical supervisor,
take a couple licensing exams and then you
get to sit with people and hear the most amazing stories in
the world but you don't tell people what to do which is one of
the number one assumptions that people make you got to try to get
people to figure out what they want to do and help them figure out
how to do it oh i was being semantic okay i'm gonna see that is good okay all
right i do i do appreciate that that was good but look at me being very what
was i being very literal that's what i was being yeah okay so we were talking
about the dartmouth scar study and we could pick it up and pretend like nobody
was listening the first time.
I wasn't exactly well okay so
tell me said this is where we're at so for anyone jumping on i will
be so quick with this but the dartmouth scar study is
a study that happened back in 1980 where people
were given by a professional makeup artist dramatic scar
on their face insert harry potter comment from
last time kind of like it's groundhog day like harry potter there
we go and then i say oh but it was 1980 that was before harry potter
and then i think maybe you would make a joke about
I don't know something about 1980 which I was I
was 11 at the time anyway so
the people have a big dramatic scar on their face they're going
to go out interact with the world and it was to figure out how people treated
them how people maybe discriminated or judged and then right before they left
the makeup artist said let me put some setting powder on and then wipe the scar
off completely and then the people went out and thought they had the scar on
their face and then they reported back how they felt so judged.
And that is just a fascinating study that says that the cliche that your perception
is your reality truly is your reality.
So, it takes a lot of work for somebody to, I don't know, have the courage or
knowledge or the ability to
self-confront or look critically at the things that they take for granted.
Because if you don't, then you tend to then look for only things that align
with what you think and how you believe.
And then you end up in a little echo chamber and you find small groups
of friends and before you know it you are a member of QAnon oh right
yeah it doesn't have to go there it doesn't I was thinking about this and I
started talking about this on the podcast that I recorded that started with
the Dartmouth Scar Study and I had a person that was that was pretty deep into
QAnon that is out now and then if I ever tell a story I'm changing the details
I am a professional therapist who values confidentiality.
But are you familiar with how that worked, Sid?
No. So, here's what was interesting. So, let's pretend that there's like a leader.
Let's say a president that isn't consistent with their message.
We might even say they're not telling the truth about things, hypothetically.
So, they go in one town and they say, I don't know, let's just say that I like
dogs. And then they go in the next town and they say, I hate dogs.
So, instead of people going, hey, this guy doesn't tell the truth,
people were like, so he obviously tells the truth.
So what's the message he's trying to say? So then he goes into the third town
and he says, as a matter of fact, third time, he says, I actually very much enjoy donkeys.
And then people are like and he says i've never liked dogs and
i've never even said that i like dogs so then people are saying i mean
we can literally review the tape and he said these things but he must be trying
to send us a message and what's fascinating about that is we all have this desire
to be part of a community wait the message is that he's lying though i believe
so as well and that's why this is so fascinating though because you've got somebody
that if they don't if they're unwilling to look at the fact that that is happening
they're trying to create.
Meaning off of the inconsistency.
It's like they put so much power in one person that they ignore all of the power in themselves.
That's literally just common sense that they are lying. It's not deeper than that.
Absolutely. Okay. Look at Rebecca, my favorite therapist. Rebecca,
my favorite TikTok person who was talking about their favorite therapist. Thank you.
But Sid, I really, I like that you're digging on this and that is not me saying
that what they are doing is wrong,
but it does go into that thing where I find it not very helpful because then
you get, let's say this person now has told over a couple of years,
hundreds, if not thousands of lies.
Then this person who was formerly QAnon that I worked with as a client,
then they said that they would spend hours and hours trying to figure out the
pattern of what everyone, a lot of other people viewed as just lies.
And then they created a community or a forum and it was like,
okay, who has the best ability to put these pieces together?
And then which one feels like it. It's right. Because again,
we don't want to feel uncomfortable.
So, discomfort is really, really bad. So, we want to figure out a way to make us feel comfortable.
So, then we try to create narratives about these inconsistencies over time and then say, okay.
And then it makes everybody else in the group feel better.
So, he said that he was so deep in it. And I finally said, what is it that kind of shook you?
And this is what I think is kind of fascinating is there might be one thing.
I think the person that was in the position of power finally told a lie about
something about that had to do with something that his grandfather had been
involved in, which he knew. He knew that was not the case. So,
at that point, he was like.
Wait a minute. I actually know that that's not true. So, is there a chance that
the two years and thousands of other things aren't true as well?
And then as you went and undid those things, then it all fell apart.
And you find out that that's what happens a lot of times when people do like
a faith deconstruction. So, let's say that, what are you thinking of that?
This is so like on brand with like how religion like took over like all of the
stuff before it, like just took their stories and changed it.
Yeah. Yeah. And feel free to jump in and talk about that because I do a lot
with people who are struggling with their faith. their faith community.
And again, it starts from the place of that we all want to feel a sense of community
and we want to find people that have shared experiences. We want rites of passage
and social capital and rituals because those all make us feel better about ourselves
and feel like we belong to a community.
But one of the problems is if you're in the community, you don't want to be
booted out of the community. So, a lot of times you will then overlook things
that maybe are uncomfortable because of that fear that you'll get booted out.
And a lot of times when I work with people that are in, let's say,
a high demand religion that is not a fan of, let's say, alternative lifestyles,
homosexuality, and then they have someone in their family, like a kid that comes
out as gay, that's sometimes the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
And all of a sudden, I sometimes joke, that comes with a free faith crisis.
It sucks that that has to happen. Something has to affect you directly for you
to feel empathy about another group of people, though. Can we all just be nice?
Okay. Well, and I'm glad that we're going here because now you
go back and it goes back to that thing where like okay
xavier which i was a lot of people yeah and so thank you like xavier
i'm digging your vibe here tonight how do you or this afternoon how do
you confront beliefs that you know are rational but will impact your behavior i might
even if you're okay if i add to that or will impact your social standing
or will impact your place in the community because
i will have people that will be in in positions of power let's say with a
high demand religion and then they have a faith journey or a faith crisis
but their business or their sometimes even their retirement
or their role in the family is so set or it is where it is because of where
they sit in a standing with this community that then they don't want to confront
beliefs that they now feel are irrational because of the fear of what they will
be viewed as in their community. So back to how do you...
I really believe that we go from a place of we didn't know what we didn't know.
That so many of us, I mean, I know I'm walking around not knowing so many things.
We're all stupid. Right? Let's start there from a place of good old humility.
Because if somebody doesn't have at least that much awareness that there obviously
are things I don't know, then they're not actually being, they're not looking
for things that they may want to do a little more critical thought on or examining.
So you don't know what you don't know. The next step that happens is you know.
Now, you know, or you're starting to think about something, but you don't even know what to do about it.
That's where we spend most of the time when you're on this path of change.
And the unfortunate part there is that is where you can imagine things feel
pretty uncomfortable because all of a sudden my world is different.
All of a sudden, these things that I just took for granted or I thought were
just absolute truths now may not be. And what would that feel like? Super uncomfortable.
And again, Sid, if you've had experiences like that yourself or feel free to.
Yes, I have. Yeah. And so, then what happens is, well, I don't like feeling
uncomfortable, so now I need to go back into my community, my people,
my faith, and I need to find things that will make me feel better.
Yeah. This is for me when I left the church. It was like, I had inadvertently
put my entire identity, my self-worth, my life meaning, everything that it meant
to be me, every atom in my body was as a part of that church.
And so, leaving it was literally terrifying and horrifying.
Satisfying really that like discomfort turned
out to be so much better than the
comfort that i thought i'd been feeling in the church yeah
because you don't know what you don't know and
when you actually start to feel good you realize maybe you
were feeling really bad for a long time you know and trying to tell
yourself no no i'm good yeah you know i call that one the right guys
like you're looking by you're right better like maybe that's how it's supposed to be
yeah no you're supposed to be happy and you're supposed to be in charge of your
own life well and i think one of One of those universal principles that we don't
know until we know is that growth comes from discomfort and so we often are
so afraid of the unknown or what might feel uncomfortable that then we will
revert back to behaviors that are no longer.
They no longer are in alignment with who we are, but we're just,
we don't know what else to do.
And so, what you'll often find is almost like this rebound effect where,
all right, now somebody has new information, it's super uncomfortable,
they will go back and try to double down on the beliefs or the belief system
that they've always known because they want it to comfort them.
But then the more they dig now that they are aware that, okay,
maybe it isn't exactly what I thought it is, they may start to find even more,
which now it's really uncomfortable. So it went from I didn't know what I didn't
know to now I know, but I don't know what to do.
Or it's just really sometimes people say, I wish I didn't even know.
And then you move on to that. The next step is now I'm doing more than I did before.
I'm learning more than I did. And it's starting to become more comfortable.
But that you'll still find times where something will come up and be triggering
and you will then feel super uncomfortable again.
Yeah, but then you'll reach the point where it's I cannot believe I was ever
not thinking like this. And you'll be so grateful.
Sam said, hey, I was in here a while ago and I just want to say I made tons
of progress since the last time and I'm very proud of myself.
I got a new job for the first time. Sam, let's go.
Hey, Sam, if you even want to give us a little, yeah, give us a little idea
of what you were. Yeah, I love that you were in here a while ago and you've made tons of progress.
I would love, yeah, that's a great update. And anything else you want to share,
yeah, Sid, make sure we find that. Jen Design Store, I love when you're on.
Probably talking about you, Sid. Jen, Sidney says thank you.
She was talking about me. Yeah, she is. Yeah.
All right. I'm thinking Xavier a little bit up there, too. people seem to crave
meaning at any cost and that is a great way to put it
we are meaning making creatures we our brain
is a prediction engine we want to make sense of things and
we're doing it if without even knowing there's a concept in a book called non-violent
communication that i love it's by this guy marshall rosenberg who's passed but
he talks about one of the one of the things we need to do is separate our observation
from our judgment so anytime we are observing somebody we're making a judgment
so if you are looking at me and the way i'm sitting right now and maybe i know,
yeah, my shoes and my sock combo,
most likely you're making a judgment, whatever that is.
And I don't know what's a good judgment there, because I didn't even know you
could see my socks and shoes in the frame.
Sid? They're matching. Okay. Weirdo. Freak. Okay. We didn't have to go there.
The one that people do this the most on is, and I love people watching,
I'm not saying that you should not do this.
It just is of if you see maybe not the most attractive guy with a very attractive
woman. What is your first thought, Sydney?
That they just love each other. I hate when you do this. Okay.
You can't put me in this hole. Get back in the box, Sid.
I often find myself thinking, why, that man must have a very good job and must
make large sums of money.
God forbid he has a personality. Exactly. But I mean, again,
we just make these observations and judgments.
So, one of the first beginnings of emotional maturity is to separate the observation from the judgment.
I am observing that they are together and I'm making the judgment that he must
have large sums of money.
Because the danger there is when you
approach someone then let's say it's one of your kids and they're
not doing their homework and you say man it's because they're lazy then if you
go in and say hey what's up champ and they're like hey i'm just not really feeling
it today i've had a rough day in your mind you're like they're not even willing
to admit that they're lazy so you you're making their and then you're projecting
those judgments onto somebody and basically saying prove me wrong about the
thing that is not true about you that i just made up that game is rigged,
sorry were you talking about me no wait no no well you gave me this adhd sir
so okay i did and you are welcome i was i clicked one time on something that was about an adhd.
Something about being more organized something kind of silly like
that and now every single thing and every algorithm of
everything i own is all about adhd and the number
of times that people say it's your superpower like that
is such a buzzword which i do i dig it i like
it but I don't know do you feel like it's a super power soon sometimes not
all the time no tell me more pal I just hate
it when I want to get stuff done yeah like it's
the kind of important thing in life okay let's talk about this for one second
and then any any questions at all Sam said I'm still struggling a bit but I
feel like all those tiny steps finally culminated into big moves okay and Sam
if you even want to share a little bit of what you're struggling with we will
weigh in and provide amazing wonderful advice.
Yeah. Well, okay. Let's go back to this. When you were struggling, Sydney.
There's another one. Okay. Let's do that. As a mom and a teacher,
I listen to people all day long, but don't get fed much intellectual conversation.
Oh, okay. Cause I'm guessing, man, I want to know. Oh, she said that was Jen.
She said, I love when you were on. Okay. Jen, thank you so much.
And Jen, I'm so curious what age you teach and then how old your kids are,
because I can only imagine a lack of the intellectual conversation.
And then let's talk about that for a minute. Where would you,
where would you want to go for intellectual conversation.
Because I will tell you, I realize how much I love that about being a therapist
is sometimes we are just talking about some relationship things that may seem
pretty basic to some, but it's real to that person.
And other times I've got somebody that's having an existential crisis in life
and you're just, the session would sound crazy to somebody listening in.
And I know that I do enjoy that.
It's pretty stimulating. You enjoy existential crises?
I do. I love talking to people about them. Yeah. And when we were talking earlier
about when somebody deconstructs their faith or steps out of their faith community.
I love that stuff. And there is a bit of a dark night of the soul that comes after that.
Because if you have been trying to make sense of things for so long,
we go back to your implicit memory or what it feels like to be you or me or
any of us is based on the slow residue of your lived experience.
So, if your lived experience has been continually trying to find ways to fit
into the community and to make things work and all of a sudden those puzzle
pieces start to not fit together, then people feel like, I don't know if anything is true.
And this is a big thing in mental health that I love, the pendulum effect. It is all true.
Often is met after, slowly after, is anything true? So then I'm going to go,
ah, I need everything to be true.
And nothing's true. And you eventually settle somewhere in the middle and it's not that scary.
And that's where you even find yourself or you may even be closer to the divine, that sort of thing.
Ooh, you're enlightened. I'm feeling it. No, seriously, this is good stuff.
Oh, okay. You said something though. You said like something about the dark
night of the solar. Yeah.
I feel like that is important to talk about because so many people like that.
Dark thing will happen. And then it's like, you immediately think that,
okay, yeah, I need to run back to my comfort.
But like that bad thing is happening because you are like, you're being born
again. Oh yeah, that's good.
The phoenix out of the ashes or whatever, you know, it's like,
that's a good thing to be that uncomfortable.
Yeah. And it's unfortunate that a lot of times we don't recognize that until much later.
So it's a bit of a hindsight principle, because when somebody's in it and you
just want to let them know, man, it's going to be okay.
But to them, it may not feel like it's going to be okay.
And I deal with that when people are navigating even things like divorce or
big breakups in a relationship or just there's uncertainty. We just want to know.
We crave it so bad. I want to see, okay, or see healthy parent-child discussion.
So, listening to you both is enriching.
Okay, Jen is saying that you are providing intellectual conversation, Sid. Yeah.
Okay. I'm here all 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. See, I'm okay. I had a hard time because of my childhood with allowing
myself to experience negative emotions sam thank you very much give that give
sam something sid wait a cookie or a high five okay do you know what do you
want okay do you want to do that i don't this is not ready yet but do you know
have you looked at that t-shirt that's right there beside my chair will you
hold that up please sid this is my creation of now i've been waiting for this
for a long time do you know this.
Okay. I can't wait. It's just being and doing.
Just being and doing. Because that's when somebody's like, hey,
why'd you do that? Or what are you doing? What are you doing?
It's like, I'm just being and doing. That's what I'm doing. I'm just being.
Because I'm me. And I'm going through life for the very first time.
I like how you put the white shirt on the dirty floor in the corner.
That was good touch. People can't see behind the scenes, Sid.
Can you put it back up on the shelf with the hanger, please?
The shelf on the hanger? Yeah. On the coat rack thing that I have there.
Okay, but Sam, let's talk about this. One of my favorite speeches,
although when I say favorite, I mean, I'm so grateful to be able to talk about
this stuff, but it is, we could cue the sad music, maybe do that in post-production, Sid.
But it is why I'm so, so fascinated by the more we're starting to talk,
I think, in the mental health world, which is all about emotions,
but it seems like the last couple of years we're opening up about them more,
or maybe I'm starting to figure it out finally after 20 years of being a therapist.
But when you're a kid and you express emotions, even a good parent says, hey, calm down.
Not a big deal, bud. you can get over it or just
don't worry about it but what are we telling you because you're
a kid you are worried about it it does seem like a big deal so we're
basically giving you the message that your feelings yeah
and your feelings are wrong like you you're even wrong about your own feelings
champ so over time we stop externalizing our emotions we internalize them and
we keep them deep inside so when they want to come out we already know well
these are wrong so why what is wrong with me and so emotions start to just feel
like they're bad i don't know what to do with them. So Sam, well said.
And one of the best things you can do is just start to allow yourself to feel.
And I so love that when you do, where do you feel?
Because I find that people will feel the big feelings or emotions sometimes
in their throat, in their chest, in their head, which are these the chakras, Sid? Yes.
Okay, where do you feel? I already knew that. Well, I do, I think,
but I know there's like seven of them, eight of them, nine.
So, I don't know where they all are because I have wanted to go check that out
because people will tell me they feel their feelings in their tummy or their chest.
Like, I feel mine more in my chest. You should do that when you're meditating.
Okay. I do have a meditation that has those. Yeah, and then you can like feel
wherever you're feeling like tension or like blockages, you can like send like
light and focus on that area.
Okay. And that will like bring stuff up that you like maybe need to work through. Okay. Okay.
And the trauma treatment resistant anxiety and depression. Hey,
we should talk about this sometime too.
When Sam, we're talking about treatment resistant depression is so one of these
days we'll talk about the world of psychedelic assisted therapy,
because I know ketamine has been FDA approved and you got the component of the mushroom psilocybin,
although it's going to first, I think be approved for Parkinson's, I think is, or,
Parkinson's disorder, but low dose ketamine, microdosing ketamine,
that stuff is available now.
And that is has really good results
from treatment resistant depression yeah okay jenna
just joined a mom's group so we can focus on our individual mental health oh teach
second grade bless you jen that oh
how old is that let's figure the math because i think that's a that's like just
herding cats all day is i can imagine but man how important you are though second
grade okay i've always i'm some people know this stuff off the top of their
head if she can beat us there how much is When I look at a kid,
it's either three or like...
15? Oh, six to seven.
Okay, I do think that must be... I should be asking, right? Yeah,
that's wild though. Sam, I like what you're saying here. Oh wait, first of all, Jin, if...
Join a mom's group so we can focus on individual mental health. I teach second grade.
If you're up for it, shoot me an email at tony at tonyoverbay.com.
And I've got, it's funny, I've had a couple of other mom's groups ask.
I even spoke at one one time, like virtually, and it was a lot of fun.
But I've got a little bit of some information I'd love to share that you could
use as your muse for the mom's group, if that would help at all.
Jennifer said, I just wanted to drop in and say, I tried anxiety meds for the
first time and I should have a long time ago.
Wow. Okay, Jennifer, tell us about that. That's the best feeling ever.
Were like, I bet that it, cause I should probably do that too.
Okay. Go to therapy, man. And it's so, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier.
There's the, we want to know and people will often say to me,
well, what if it won't work? And what if this, and what if that?
And there's really like no answer to that. So yeah, that would be a thing,
but you won't know until you do.
And then taking that leap of faith is often such a powerful thing.
And I know Sid that we've done content on this before, but I can't
say it enough is that I
call your emotional baseline so when you're feeling down your baseline
of emotions are low and when you're when everything's going well in
your life your baseline of emotions are high your decisions are coming at you
every day at the same level you're going to react to them different
when you're feeling better than you when you're not feeling so good so when
somebody's feeling pretty low when is the time now that they're trying to contemplate
should i be on medication it's when they're feeling pretty crummy and so
often the medication taking that leap of faith can raise your
baseline up to a point where now you can access tools you need not
like hammers and rakes and stuff unless you need them don't like force yourself
to like hit a rock bottom before you
heal yeah that's what i did how was
that said it was not fun no oh
but okay but let's talk about this though let's go hippie for a second because
you're as everyone listening you're going through life for the very first time
as you so you're gonna do things when you're gonna do them and when people typically
try to tell somebody i think you need to do this what's the first reaction that you have.
Don't tell me what to do. Exactly. That's normal. It's this concept called psychological reactance.
It's that I, you know, I'll do anything other than what you were telling me to do.
And this is why when you're telling somebody who is stressed and you're like,
you need to calm down, they don't go, okay, thanks.
They like, I can't calm down. And you can't tell me it's our inner,
I call it our inner teenager. Don't tell me what to do, man.
Yeah, I feel like it's because you are so like, a lot of times you do know what to do.
And you're just so comfortable, like lying to yourself
that when somebody tells you something and it's actually
maybe a helpful thing you get really it's like you
said like it's the reaction like you get so i i'm talking about myself
by the way oh i did not know that really yeah and
so i found it's like okay if i'm getting really defensive like maybe they're
like literally speaking truth for real they might be and i call them the yeah
buts so if i were to say right now said yeah so probably a good idea to start
therapy right give me your yeah buts honestly what are your yeah buts i just
it's like a I have to get in the car, drive,
get out of the car, walk, sit, know what day, know what time. That sounds like a lot.
It's hard for me. But anytime we want to do something new or something that
might be scary or the unknown, just sit back and watch the yeah buts and they will happen.
Even today, Sid and I were talking about doing this in the middle of the day
and we haven't done that before.
And I had a lot of, well, yeah, but you know what? Yeah, but what if Sidney's
not even going to be available? I almost didn't even ask, which is so silly
because I wouldn't have given you a chance to respond.
And then it was like, yeah. Don't do that. It's so annoying.
Oh, when I did, I'm glad we're here because I need to allow you to tell me no old man.
Yeah. Okay. I like that Sam said this thing too. He said, where was it at?
He said, I try not to focus on the diagnosis rather than acknowledging my own
struggles as personal to me.
I was having a conversation about this with somebody else and I really like
it because so I'm not a huge diagnosis guy,
except for when somebody really feels like it is helpful for them because I
deal a fair amount in the world of people who turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms, AKA addiction.
And there are some real definite.
Oh, hey, Betsy. There's definite things that are addiction where it is ruining somebody's life.
But so often people are doing things because they don't feel connected,
I always say, in their relationship or as a parent or in their faith or their health or their career.
So then they turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. So when they find the
tools to interact better in those areas, often they don't feel the need as much
to turn to a coping mechanism.
But where I'm going with this, I've got to... Wait, I love this. Okay.
Can I say something before I forget? Please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know if this is where you're going, but I was reading something about
this or something, but the idea of changing your perception of how you see addiction,
it's like you aren't doing it because you're a bad person, you're doing it because
you were trying to heal. Absolutely.
You were doing it out of the only form of self-love that you could understand at the time.
Once you see that, once you face the shadow and the shadow, you realize.
Was there to help you, not hurt you. That changed everything for me.
That made me just stop needing it as much.
Because it was not scary or bad anymore.
And there's a type of therapy called internal family systems,
which I think I'm going to start trying to work a lot more into my own practice.
And it is the concept, Sid, where there are no bad parts. So,
even the part of you that would identify, not just you, but the part of one
that would identify as an addict is trying to help you.
Because when you felt completely overwhelmed and didn't know what to do,
it's saying, hey, this is a way to feel better for a time.
And so, your addict, and you kind of like call it your sub-personality.
Actually, in my addiction recovery course, The Path Back, there's an exercise
in there where we sub, we personify the sub-personality.
So, let's say that you have an addict and an addictive part of you.
I like alliteration, so we'll call it Andy. And then you literally are having a conversation.
Hey, Andy, I appreciate you. You've meant well, like you've really tried to take care of us.
Probably not the most emotionally healthy way to do it, but I know you meant
well because we have no bad parts is the belief there.
Imagine Andy is like a baby and just throw Andy in the backseat, blow him up.
And you're driving now, you know? Okay, and I like that you said that because
Andy's still going to scream and cry, but you don't have to listen to him.
You can turn the music up.
That's right. Yeah. So there's a quote I love. The strongest force in the human
personality is to act in alignment with how you see yourself.
So however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to that home base.
So if I have somebody that has been doing amazing, not turning to the unhealthy
coping mechanisms or the addictions, but they continually identify,
but I'm an addict, then again, strongest force in the human personality is to
act in alignment with how you see yourself.
So, if they identify as an addict, over time, they will find a way back to that home base.
Rather than if they're saying for people that are Christian,
spiritual, if they're my child of God, or I'm a being that knows,
I'm a curious person, I'm somebody who figures things out.
If that's how I identify myself, then I might actually have a setback or a relapse,
but I will find my way back to this home base that I identify as somebody who
will figure it out. Does that make sense?
I dig that. Sam said, oh, and another, did you read this? I don't think you did.
Oh, and another shift I made is knowing the meds might help,
but I'm the one making the progress.
Oh i haven't thought of that wait that was really
good that one sit for a minute that's really good yeah because okay in editing
do this let's say that i told sam that okay no i told him that no no no so like
i always told sam i was just thinking sam the meds might help but you're the
one making the progress no no sam here's what i always tell people the meds might help,
but sam it's you buddy it's you it's you
that's making the change here's why that's significant it because people will
take medication but then they won't go to therapy or they
won't do a lot so it will help them feel a bit better but then
are they now using raising that emotional baseline and then
using that to take action and grab these new tools are
they starting to meditate are they starting to figure out their values are starting
to take action on things that matter like i always told sam i mean i think sam
and i had that conversation a couple years ago and he was like tony i don't
know what to do and i'm like sam listen okay do you have enough to edit in and
i deserve to credit myself not the meds wait did i already read that yeah.
Okay i was waiting
for a miracle med to cure me for much too long yeah
and that's a good point too okay hang on xavier makes a very good
point improv comic yes and not yeah
but so yes and yes and
yourself okay exactly i like it jen my email isn't in the link tree can't you
oh i want to make some joke but i was gonna say my assistant needs to get on
it but sid's not my assistant i need to actually look at my link tree i know
that's i'm kidding let's go back to what i was talking about to sam but my email
is i am the foundation that's right and i am the blush,
was that funny come on i said i'm the blush the blush you're the foundation
that's a makeup thing right oh yeah no that's funny oh boy okay don't try that one again.
Okay. Tony at Tony over bay.com. You can email me.
And if somebody is hearing that out of context, Jen has a mom's group and I
would love to provide her with some material that can act as a muse so that
Jen can have some stuff that they can talk about.
And oh, as I say, oh, okay. Xavier said, I've heard an addict say that his use
kept him alive until he could heal.
And that's, that's a great point. So that is the, we're no bad part because
it is trying to keep you alive.
It kind of, it goes back to, I would highly recommend go find either of my podcasts,
waking up to narcissism or the virtual couch.
And a few weeks ago, I did a two-part series on emotional immaturity.
And it is whatever we did as a kid that was, it was adaptive.
It kept us alive is now most likely maladaptive as our adult self.
So the little kid's still trying to take over.
So let's just pretend that I didn't get as much attention as I would have liked.
Then I need to be the best at everything, or I got to be funny,
or I've got to do sports real well or I got to have like 800 podcasts or I have to have to perform.
But now let's say that I'm in a relationship and that becomes a lot for my wife
because I'm constantly like, hey, did you see the thing or do you think I'm funny or are we good?
And so it was adaptive as a child. It helped me stay alive, but now it's maladaptive as an adult.
Or you get a lot of kids that were in, let's say, emotionally,
can you say, I'm trying to worry about the things that will get us shadow banned.
Were not emotionally healthy in their childhood.
And so then they learned to just sit back and not talk and not offer opinions
and try to just fade into the background to not be seen.
So that kept them alive as a child. But then as an adult, then that is,
I get those people in my office for couples therapy and that person will still
just shut down because they don't want to get in trouble.
They just feel like, okay, if I can just hold out, then we'll move on and they'll
go on to somebody else. So then it's maladaptive as an adult.
Sam remembers when I gave him that great advice Okay Really Sam?
I was going to send him a virtual couch prize pack. I really like that though.
I think it's just like the whole idea that you heal through like being like,
no, bad, stop it, drop it.
You know, it's like, that's just not true. You heal when you like love everything,
like the good and the bad because you see what it was doing for you or teaching
you. You just didn't know yet.
Absolutely. And there's, okay, let me spend a second on this.
So I've got, so I've got an, hey, Jessica, I've got an emotional immaturity cheat sheet.
And I will say, if you want to email me at Tony at Tony at Tony overbay.com
and ask for the cheat sheet, I'll send you this because this one's powerful.
But at the beginning, I quote a book. It's a fictional book called it's called
The Fury and it's by Alex Mikulaytas.
But in and I'm going to read for a second, Sid, so forgive me here. But this is so good.
He's talking about in the book, this character is talking about his fictional
therapist. And he says, my therapist was called Mariana.
And I remember when she said something chilling. He said, it messed up my head
for a long time. But looking back, it changed my life.
When we are young and afraid, when we're shamed and humiliated,
something happens, time stops and it freezes at that moment.
A full version, oh no, a version of us is trapped at that age forever.
A frightened child is hiding in your mind.
It's still unsafe. It's still unheard and unloved. And the sooner you get in
touch with that child and communicate with them, the more harmonious your life
will be. And here's the part that is chilling.
He said, after all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it? A strong adult body
to look after him and his interests, to take care of him and protect him.
You were meant to liberate him, but instead you ended up becoming his jailer.
So when we were talking earlier about our emotions, we learned to stuff our
emotions and we learned to internalize our emotions and our emotions are bad.
But that was the way our little body was trying to communicate with us, fear or sadness.
And it was trying to say, let me just imprint this on you now and promise me
when you get to be a big adult, you'll take care of us. You'll fix it because
nobody else is going to fix it for us.
But we somehow missed that memo. So now that you are in your adult body,
it's time to heal that inner child. Does that resonate?
Totally. I just did like a bunch of like inner work with this. Did you? Okay.
The best thing ever. Okay, Jessica said... Yeah, I like what you're saying.
Okay. I finally hung out with friends, or if I finally hung out with friends
and my sister is not talking to me, do you think she's jealous?
I don't know if I know enough about the situation, you know?
Because, like, what if it's something completely external as to what,
like, what if she's going through something that has nothing to do with you?
But from what you're saying, like, yeah, that's what it seems like she's projecting.
Well, I like it. I really appreciate that you said, because I like to say that
there's so many variables that are going into situations.
But when you've been doing something for a very long time, you do notice patterns.
And so my go-to in that is, yeah, it's jealousy or she's projecting that,
okay, it can't be that easy.
You can't just hang out with friends and then they like you.
So if she's felt like internally, this is difficult or it's harder to hang out with friends.
And that's unfortunate because this is one of those concepts of the emotionally
immature and I'm saying bless her heart, but it's a, if I think it, it is true.
So if I think that then my friends like you better, then it is true.
And now therefore, until my friends now show me that they like me better than
you, then And I'm not going to interact with them, but the friends don't even know.
So that one can be really tough. So this is, we go back to what we were talking
about earlier. And it's one of those times where, man, her sister really needs
to be aware or able to self-confront or a bit, a little bit of humility of able
to say, okay, what am I missing?
And man, I, so I've been digging deep into the whole world of,
of Buddhism and the concept of wishing well upon others is I think a powerful one here as well.
So yeah, like wish well on your enemies. Cause only hurt people hurt people.
Is that what you're going into?
No, I am. I totally do this. And it feels like empowering to do it too.
And it's funny because I didn't even know.
It's one of those I wasn't as aware of where I would hear about the success
of somebody else, a friend or a colleague.
And then I would think I would be jealous. And I would think,
man, that stings. I can't. I bet they think they're better. But now it's just good for them, period.
And it's nice because when we were talking earlier, this path of becoming enlightenment
or knowledge, I didn't know what I didn't know. Then I'm learning.
And now I know. But I don't really know what to do with it. or I don't do it
very often, then I move into the, okay, I do it more than I don't. And then I just am.
I have become, is this what I do? And so, it becomes your reaction,
which is really powerful, I think.
Yeah. That part is like the best part, I feel like.
And you just have to be so okay with being so uncomfortable until then.
And I feel like at first, right, it kind of comes in moments.
Like you'll maybe react that way one day and then the next day you won't.
You'll be like, oh no is everything over did i lose all my
progress but it's like no one day you really will
just wake up and like that's who you will be i'm glad you say that because that
is it's so there's so many cliches that are cliches because they're real but
the they're all give me one that's not real uh oh man now i want to find one
give me a couple of minutes with chat gbt like it's just knowledge yeah yeah
over time okay you're right because i often mistake cliches with pop psychology.
So there will be pretty crummy psychological advice given at times that but
you're right that's different than a cliche that's fair yeah like when you said
is perception is your reality is that even a cliche it is but it's a good one
I feel like that is just so like that's just like,
A fact. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's get a couple of these too.
So Jennifer said, my stepdad has never tried to get to know my sister.
And we need to be around him when we see my mom.
It's always awkward energy how to handle it. Such a good question.
He said, I always like going to you first. You have the real advice,
then I'll give the boring therapy. You want me to go first?
So first of all, I want to acknowledge that that is awkward.
And a lot of times we just need to accept the fact that, okay,
that kind of stinks. And this is the concept I love of acceptance doesn't mean you give up.
Acceptance doesn't mean apathy. What acceptance means is I got to take it in
without defense in its entirety. It is.
But and I like the example of if somebody is trying to avoid all things that
will cause them anxiety, then anxiety wins.
So I have to accept the fact of anxiety and I'll go about the world.
I'll have positive interactions. I'll get to do things. Oh, yeah.
And then sometimes I'm going to feel really anxious.
So I have to accept the fact that my stepdad is a tool, right?
Because if I want to interact with my mom, if I was like, man, but that's not fair.
And I don't even know what to do. And I don't want to be around him.
Then he, I don't want to say wins, but in a sense, he has more control.
So I'm accepting the fact that, oh, this guy, not so cool, but I want to connect with my mom.
So there's our first one. And you can jump in, Sid, and tell me any,
you can debunk any of that. Riddle nerd. Riddle nerd just sent a heart.
All right. There we go, riddle nerd. Man, riddle nerd got a fair amount of,
I want to say press, but airtime. in one of the episodes that I'm going to put
as just an audio episode.
So if that's his real name, Riddle Nerd, like from birth, then Riddle Nerd,
prepare because you're about to probably get a lot of attention.
Might have to get like an agent or those sort of things.
But the mom though in this scenario, so okay, advice. That acceptance doesn't
mean apathy, it means to take in without defense.
And it's always awkward energy. I feel like you just have to,
this is like what you were talking about earlier, right?
Like just, you have to learn to like observe and and not absorb,
you know? Oh, did you make that up?
Uh let's go with that that's good i didn't
for real though i like that a lot but i feel like that's really important as
someone who feels a lot of things yeah i've really
had to learn that to like find the difference between
that because like in this situation like that awkward energy
like it's not necessarily yours like right
could be being projected onto you from other people or maybe
it is from you and you don't resonate with it just like learn how
to transmute it into good
energy okay that was so good because i was thinking at that time i
like that you said that so if we're first of all we're accepting it i like
this concept of whole object relations have to view everything every
situation as an entire object so i can think stepdad's a
tool i love my mom we're having good food we
might play a board game stepdad's a tool take it
all in i feel like that's like a super like big
like emotional development point when you
realize you can have all of these things at once
yeah like how you say like it is not black and white
now you can be completely terrified of something
and completely like at peace and so happy
that you're doing it and like those can exist at the same time that
was like a big thing for me good well and that's the so
okay here's the pop psychology view of this that i'm not as big of a fan of
is that people are just saying hey you just got to choose to be happy which
sounds great except for when people then don't feel very happy then they beat
themselves up and say i guess i'm not good at choosing but what you need to
do choose to be in the present moment and I can find the things that are happy
and I can not notice things that maybe aren't.
Yeah, and if you're just choosing to be happy, then what are you doing?
Nying your actual emotions? Yes. You're ignoring the lessons that are actually
trying to be taught to you? Yes, I think so. You're not actually happy.
Yeah, except for the times where you are, except for the when you aren't.
And I really mean that intentionally because if somebody can play like a motivational
YouTube video and have a wind machine going when they walk out the door and
playing some guitar music and they jump in their car and today's gonna be the
best day and they've got a flat tire and then they're mad.
And then it's like, holy cow, I'm not even good at being happy.
And then they beat themselves up versus I'm going to go be present and I can't
wait and I'm having this amazing day.
And look at that. I have a flat tire. That is a thing.
Check that out. And now I'm going to have this wonderful opportunity to deal
with it and I can notice my frustration.
It really is such an emotionally mature developmental process to then learn
that I can have, like you say, all these different emotions and feelings. Yeah. Yeah.
Like I said, I also went to the city today and I showed my dad what I got and
my sister stared and didn't care.
She stayed silent okay okay i'm
on to her now yeah this is i go back to
this that person your sister bless her
heart and i mean that when i say bless her heart because because there's
a reason why people show up the way that they do and she
might not even be aware yeah or like she might
be doing i've definitely had situations where i would do that and
be so mad that i'm doing it but still not able to
stop doing it yeah but it's just
so annoying like everyone can be happy a win for someone else
is a win for you yeah and here's where becoming differentiated
becomes one of the the goals and and if you that i
think that is becoming a buzzword but there's a psychologist who's
since passed but i really love his work david schnarch and he says differentiation
is people's ability to balance humankind's two most fundamental drives our desire
for attachment and connection on the one hand so you want attachment you want
connection with your sister your dad but also our desire to be an individual
and direct the course of our own lives on the other So,
it's our desire to figure out who we are while we are interacting or maintaining
a relationship with somebody else because if she is just blank staring and you feel bad….
What there's a chance she wants you to now basically
give up yourself and then just give in and
apologize for i can i'm so sorry i got this thing and
i can tell it's really made you mad and i'm going to try to make
i'm going to try to sacrifice my feelings and emotions and my sense of
self to make you feel better even though you're being
pretty immature yeah it's like she wants you to like dim your
light yeah for her because because
the and what's really interesting is when you really learn about differentiation it's
easier to do with people that you really don't know somebody walks
up off the street and says hey i'm not a big fan of your podcast okay but
if sydney says it or my wife says i'm actually not a fan of
your podcast i'm okay with that tell me more actually
i don't yeah you shouldn't be but because people that are close closer in your
life they know the right buttons to push to get you to conform so differentiation
eventually it it yields emotional autonomy and that really is it's really truly
the part of relationships that I think that's part that we don't know that we don't know,
is that rather than trying to play small so that somebody else won't feel bad
or not say something because I don't want them to think a certain thing of me,
real intimacy is the, and I know I like saying this a lot, but it's the courage
to be known for me to share myself and also to know somebody,
to have the ability to really learn
who somebody is, even if it makes you uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer said, and really, I guess it's his loss for not wanting to get to know us too.
For sure. totally i almost feel like we got it more
mature than that old man right and okay and that's boy
i was listening to it was a podcast with the
comedian theo vaughn and the guy who was the ceo of
chat gpt sam altman and i like that sam altman
was saying it was theo vaughn was really looking for certainty tell
me about what ai is going to mean in the future and sam altman kept saying
yeah nobody really knows and i really liked his vibe there
and he said a thing where he said when i was younger and i was
in a room i was assumed that the older people knew what
was going on or they knew what was going to happen and then
he's like and now that i'm that guy i realize nobody really
does and i think it's brilliant because i'm 55 and
i still like trying to figure this stuff out i feel like the like smarter people
are the ones who are totally comfortable that is it what's going on like the
people that have to feel like they know everything are the people that are so
uncomfortable with not knowing stuff so now we and that's where said people
will then go back to how we started today where they're going to go into this I need to find,
I need to make sense of things and I might even try to create narratives that
will make sense of things.
Yeah, and then you're closing, if you pick one thing to be your truth,
then you're closing yourself off to all of the other knowledge of the world. You know what I mean?
Don't don't no one knows what's going on come on like be
real there's a i really like this podcast called hidden
true crime and it's with lauren mathias and
her husband dr john who's a clinical forensic psychologist and
i will never forget he was talking about this chad and laurie daybell case which
i could talk about all day long but he was saying that he now dr john has a
new little kid and he's i think he's in his 40s didn't know if he was gonna
have children and he was over i swear he said i could be wrong but he was looking
over a valley and he was just sitting there holding his kid's hand and he just thought,
I'm looking at this valley and it's beautiful and I've got my kid here.
And he was just so in the present moment.
And he talked about how somebody like this Chad Daybell, who called himself
a prophet, he would stand there and he had to now tell, this is where these
battles were fought in the past and this is where these heavenly things will happen.
And so, it's like he needed to have this narrative that he knew versus just
he was missing out on the present moment.
And I think about that often where when we can accept the fact that maybe we
don't know, then we can just be in the moment.
And then you have to do that long enough. And then all of a sudden,
your day-to-day are all these opportunities for connection and being,
and you're not trying to continually figure out what and why and how versus
I just, I'm being in that moment.
And I think that's a really powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica said, do you think she sounds jealous that I would put myself in such
a big group because she said that would scare her one time?
Oh, right there. so yeah I feel like she's I've had a friend like this kind of where it's like.
Any time that you do good for yourself, it means that it's like an attack.
If I would do something good or positive, she would take that as a literal attack against her.
And it was like, what is happening? I don't know. It's just normal in a friendship
to be happy for the other person, I feel like.
It just shows a lot of insecurity in the other person and they're just not secure
enough with where they're at in their life that they want to keep you down. That right there.
If you can go find the, on my Waking Up to Narcissim podcast,
I did one on narcissistic family.
No, the antagonistic attachment styles of the narcissist.
And I'm not trying to say everybody's a narcissist, but this is based off of
an article by Julie Hall.
And it's called Understanding the Narcissist Antagonistic Attachment Style.
This paragraph sets it up so perfectly. She says, securely attached humans approach
relationships cooperatively. They work together to achieve shared goals.
They seek and give empathetic validation.
They share accurate and truthful information, and they express affection and
vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in their relationships.
Even if there's conflict or disagreement, they offer mutual support,
and that's the foundation of the relationship.
But things like respect and love are not at stake. She says,
by contrast, the narcissistic personality attachment with others is antagonistic.
It's a concept in biology that refers that a relationship in which one organism
benefits at the expense of the other.
So if one person is going to then go interact with a lot of friends,
and this person doesn't think that they can do that then they need to pull that
person back down into their their pit and so they just they don't have this
wishing well for others and so they need you to be in it with them because then
they can take the one-up position it does it does it's so sad.
Because what happens is so many people that are insecure or unsure of themselves,
they view life as this zero-sum game where they can only win if somebody else is losing. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. And I think that part is so hard.
And I often say that the emotionally immature or narcissistic person,
they need another human to interact with to know that they even exist.
And then when they get the other human with them, then they need to take the one-up position.
So, when you try and stay connected to somebody that is immature and doesn't wish the best for you,
then when you interact with them, most likely, I call it an attack surface,
you're going to say things and they're going to now have an attack surface to
tell you what is bad about what you said or how you don't understand them because of what you said.
And they try to take that one-up position to make you feel down.
And have you ever felt that, Sid? Yeah, and it can just, and then you're wasting
emotional calories trying to figure out what is wrong with me or did I say that
wrong or why are they mad at me versus just in a friendship where you're both
getting to just be. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica said, why do you think people check themselves in their phone so much?
It's so annoying, like hold their phone up.
It's so annoying. I hung out with 30 people last night, but I felt so frozen
and I felt like I couldn't engage until drama started from someone else in the baseball stands.
My older sister said she would be scared but i think my younger sister
i think my younger sister said she would
be scared as well but starting with the phone yeah
talk to me dude i don't know i it's like a comfort
it's like a coping mechanism right because i do it sometimes if
i like i'm walking outside and like i like
start feeling like i'm being perceived and then i'll
just like pretend like i'm looking at something my phone my screen's off
yeah i used to when i was like really really anxious i used to do i would just
pretend like i was on a fake phone call all the time okay i was gonna ask you
no one's looking at you no would you talk out loud do you think they can see
that my screen is not real from behind my hand in the from that car over there
it's like they literally are not paying attention to you but they could though
actually said they would tell me.
Kidding but but it's i i just
agree with you but i i do it too and it's annoying and like i
for me when i hang out with people like i just don't i try
not to just not be on my phone at all i really think it's
like a it's like a basically an adult pacifier in
a sense like this is soothing mechanism and and
i will often say and i'm as guilty as can
be as well i have one of my main core values is curiosity so i'm continually
i like googling things like to know facts like to know what else has happened
in this area like that's different it can be different than me sitting staring
at a blank phone okay fair while
everyone is living around me that's fair like that's a A little crazy.
A little bit. A little bit. So what I think is the antidote to this,
though, is to be curious about other people's experiences.
And when I have somebody that comes to me and they say, I want to be better
in social situations or to interact with other people, then I think they really
need to be curious and ask other people questions because people love talking about themselves.
And I think it would be much better than everyone just staring at their phone.
But then I start sounding like such an old man. I'm going to yell,
get off my lawn in a couple of seconds now.
What? Oh, puzzle piece. Okay, good. That means we're at an hour. Let's keep going.
Okay, and your mom is supposed to come here any time. Okay. Okay, and say hi.
Jessica said... Oh, wait, yeah, so my younger sister is immature.
It's horrible that she doesn't think that. Yeah, here's the irony.
The emotionally immature person doesn't self-confront because they're emotionally immature.
Because that would require them to take ownership or accountability.
Because the childhood adaptation to that was blame shift, gaslight,
deny. And so that kept them alive as a kid. So they're going to continue to do that now.
Yeah, just know that if they're not going to mature, then you making them mad is you doing good stuff.
So keep doing it. Yeah, okay. Betsy said, I can't do the fake phone call because
I know my phone will ring and I'm caught.
That would be funny. All it takes is one time for that to happen to somebody.
And that really would be funny. Lucky for me, I don't receive phone calls.
Well, when you even said you pretend to be on the phone, I was going to make
a joke like you know how that works, right? The way like calls work and stuff. What do you mean? Hey.
Oh, wait. That's like an old man thing. Because actually you're quite good.
We FaceTimed for quite a while last night.
Because my computer didn't work. This is fair. Oh, when you needed something.
You didn't just call to ask me how I'm doing. How are you doing,
by the way? I'm doing quite well. Thank you. Good. Yeah.
Are you going to ask me how I'm doing? That's funny.
Sid. Crazy. How are you doing? Not well after that. Okay.
My bad. okay jessica said oh
wait did you just read this part did let's see let's
see if you've read it before i read it okay i've
noticed that oh did i read this already and i'm like i really
yes i did i did okay so
move on my younger sister's image okay you
did read that okay computers or commuters in
old photo in old photographs were shown
to be reading the paper oh that's funny
is he saying like that was the phone yeah the
olden days yeah i really that's what they would just okay you know what's okay
what's funny about that though is that i've thought before that
that's cool but i didn't think about it like oh they were doing the same
thing um it is funny i do
remember still when people would carry a paperback book along
with them so if you're waiting in line you know i guess maybe some people do
just read like i am just projecting that i would never read i have i read a
couple pages of a book the other day what was it it was like this book about
and like energy it It was like the science behind energy,
like your aura and fields and stuff like that.
It was so interesting, but it was like, oh my gosh, ADHD makes that so hard.
I have to read one sentence like 12 times to even know what it says.
Yeah. Does that frustrate you?
Yes. I know. And I've been saying it because when I'm working with somebody
that is struggling with something like that, because again, I'm a big old ADHD person as well.
Acceptance is really helpful there as well, because people will start to beat
themselves up or what's wrong with me and versus like, oh, check that out.
This is the fourth time I'm reading this sentence like that as a thing.
And it just like that, that talk about energy, that that shifts the what's wrong
with me energy, which is always helpful.
I love Jessica. She's just still ranting about this. She said,
no, but they literally hold it up high in the air, like very high. Yeah.
Not just in front of their face, but like high up in the air. No, you're so right.
And like making the little kiss face. Okay. Any tips on how to have a better
mind-body connection? I feel like I drift away a lot. Jessica asked.
I was actually, I've been writing about this a lot. And there's a concept called
embodiment, which I really like. Are you familiar with that, Sid?
Embodiment? Embodiment? No. What it really is, is we're so much in our head
that then embodiment is being able to go on a walk or it is more about some
deep breathing and it's learning to just really feel your body.
And like body scans and meditation are a good part of that because we just,
we think and think and a lot of times we try to think our way out of thinking
problems, which only adds to more of the stress.
And I think this is where it's important to recognize. So, I've got a couple
of episodes on the Waking Up to Narcissim podcast about the amygdala hijack.
You know, your amygdala is what people call the lizard brain or the critter
brain or the Neanderthal brain.
And that's where the fight and flight and fawn and freeze, all that comes from.
And so when you can really understand, I think the science behind it is the
more that you worry and stress and overthink, your heart rate elevates and it
starts to shut down your prefrontal cortex.
And that's the part where you can make logical decisions and you'll get in your amygdala.
At a certain point, your heart rate elevates so much. You're so stressed.
You're so anxious that the amygdala takes over. And now you can't even access
the logical part of your brain.
So you can turn to some good old breathing, but at that point your amygdala
is already hijacked. So one of the best things you can do is go for a walk.
It's being able to go outside and breathe in fresh air and feel your legs, your feet on the ground.
And so that, and I think that's how to have a better mind body connection.
I feel like I drift away a lot is just come back into the present and don't
try necessarily to think your way into the present but just be what can i feel
what can i smell what can i touch i never can remember what all five are.
Think no what can i what am i what can i what am i seeing what am i smelling what am i hearing,
what can i dance to okay i don't know i have i like what you're saying i'm trying
to find I had like a good quote that I saw the other day for that.
I don't remember what it was. It was something about like, you're like, why are you laughing?
Because that was just funny. I thought you were going to end it there.
I saw this great quote. I don't remember what it was. Next question.
Well, now I'm going to do that. Okay. Thank you. Oh, okay.
Silence. Okay. More questions. Sit in it. You do something. You do.
Okay. I will read another quote. Carl Rogers, the famous psychologist,
the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.
I really like that one a lot. Yeah, that's like we were talking about,
you have to be honest with yourself.
You have to love yourself enough to be so honest with yourself.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's good.
Okay, now I've got my random quotes and thoughts page up. And so I just want
to run through all of them.
The immortal words of Art Garfunkel from Simon and Garfunkel,
all lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
That's in a song. song lyrics and it was what we were talking about earlier
with confirmation bias, our perception is our reality, where somebody hears
the things that they want to hear and they disregard the rest.
Yeah, yeah. So, we're taking things in through our own filter.
I was going to say something, but I didn't say it. Okay.
That is good live Q&As. I hope that one makes the cut into the...
I think this will be a good clip. Okay.
This one's going big. Okay. Jennifer says, I feel like I can't hold conversations
like where to start and how to get better.
This is one that comes up often. I was talking to a client the other day who
said, and he wants to be more engaged with his partner, but he was saying that,
but what do you do when you don't care about what they're talking about?
Talking about what do you what do you say that I know and
it's I was grateful that he asked the question yeah well
I feel like if you care and love the person deeply enough
like it's not that you like that specific thing you like like the light in their
eyes when they're talking about something that they love yes I mean yeah that's
what you're like in love with you don't have to like actually love the thing
just like and yeah it's so good and so then and I'll add I'll yes understand
that and say what I shared with him was,
yeah, you like this person and they like that thing or it means something to them.
So, that's your opportunity to get out of your own ego and it isn't about you
and now you be curious about them.
And I did an episode, go find this on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago
about genuine curiosity because a lot of us just aren't curious.
We like to tell others what they are doing or what they must be thinking or
what they must be feeling.
But genuine curiosity, you can ask a question because you're trying to check a box.
Not a big fan of that one. Or a lot of people ask questions.
They're like, no, I really want to know so that I can tell you how dumb you are at some point.
Or genuine curiosity. I really want to know and understand you.
And that's a whole different level because you will feel these reactions come
up where you want to tell them, but that's not, but why do you think that?
Or, but I don't believe that. And that's, so it takes work to be genuinely curious.
So if you care about the person, there's your marching orders right there.
Yeah. I feel like that's also like a differentiation moment where it's,
You don't have to love the same thing. Yeah.
And it's like, I feel like to love someone is to like, like love seeing them
do exactly whatever that they want to do. Like not what I want to do.
Okay. No, no. So that, that one, I'm, that's my current, a little bit of my
current fixation is just, if you really step back, it's kind of silly that people
are just continually telling them what, well, what I think you mean is this
versus, Hey, tell me more about what you mean,
you know? And that's supposed to be love. Come on.
Okay. Come on. Hey, 101 Music's here, and I know that they, I believe 101 Music's
the one that we'll typically ask about a ghost story.
101 Music, you should have been here an hour and change ago when Sydney made a your mom joke to me.
Now, granted, that is her grandmother, but my mother did just recently pass away.
So we may have a ghost story in the coming weeks. Don't say that.
No, I'm kidding. I know that. You know I'm kidding.
I'm scared now. Oh, no. We'll burn some sage and things like that.
That's the thing, right?
Yes, because age is a thing. Okay, but no, the reason I'm saying that,
do you remember how embarrassed I was when I told Sydney that I had had a couple
in here and I had a long session and they were just, they were fired up and
it was really, I said, man, ending the day with that kind of energy.
And Syd said, hey, I'll come in tonight because Sydney will come into my office
at night and do the editing for clips and stuff. And she came in and she said, I'll burn sage.
So I came in the next morning and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can smell it.
And she really did great.
And the whole day, okay, this goes into what we've talked about,
perception is your reality.
The whole day I was like, oh my gosh, this sage stuff really works.
I go to Sid and I'm like, Sid, sage again tonight. And she's like,
oh, I forgot to do it last night.
And you know what I feel like that really like showed you though,
is just like the power of your own energy.
For real. It's like you have the ability to bring that into a,
you can walk into. Oh, your presence.
Yeah. Every day you can do that. Yeah. But I also need a sage. Yeah.
By the way, if you look to your left, Sid, do you see all the new candles I got? Oh.
Uh-huh. i don't know if they're the kind you like what do
i like we like complete opposite yeah i like citrusy stuff
i like like sweet like vanilla cupcake and then my dad will literally get a
candle that says lake lake i do have one it's not it says lakeside morning is
what it is it's not just a lake like like it smells like moss no it does not
smell like moss it smells like a crisp.
Crabs like literally okay crabs don't live in
the lake maybe they do i don't even know jennifer just get
curious yes exactly that's exactly correct all
right sid should we uh should we wrap things up it's a
blast wait now are we gonna be back tomorrow night i think
so okay i'm i mean i'm game if you are all right
hey this was wonderful everybody saturday afternoons are good
so will you come back again sid on a saturday afternoon
okay and then a sunday night and then a monday morning
and then a tuesday midday no no i'm just kidding rebecca
we love you too and we will be back tomorrow night um
so and again go follow us
and do this but no go the waking up the narcissism podcast
and the virtual couch podcast i'm
gonna post a youtube video right after this you are okay let's
do it of like a live from a while ago okay oh let's see
what time tomorrow night what time you want to do it should we do 7 30
sure pacific time but maybe it will be 8 because i'm late to everything but
i'm really gonna try yeah today was good because we have the whole I'll just
leave the mic set up because I don't have clients tomorrow yeah that's fine
yeah all right real nerd talk to you later good night Jennifer thank you Betsy
see you tomorrow Rebecca love you too bye everybody.