WEBVTT

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Music.

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Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.

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I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four,

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and so excited to get to today's episode.

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Today, I am sharing this bonus episode of an interview that I was on on my good

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friends Steph and Craig's podcast, the aptly named Steph and Craig Show.

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So, Steph and Craig were on my podcast a few months ago, and the episode was

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about taking the scenic route in your relationship because they have both been

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through a lot of amazing,

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wonderful things in their lives that they've acknowledged they would not take

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any of them back, but they have really been on a journey, a deep dive,

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learned so much about themselves.

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So, I pulled up the introduction to the podcast to their appearance on the virtual

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couch a little while ago.

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And I think this will give you an idea of who Steph and Craig are.

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In that episode, in the introduction, I said, Steph and Craig shared their remarkable

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journey from meeting as a police officer and dispatcher to becoming relationship

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content creators who are being radically vulnerable.

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They don't hold back because they discuss the chaos of their early relationship,

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blending families, career crisis, mental health struggles, and the imbalance

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dynamics that nearly tore them apart.

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And if you have not listened to that episode, I highly recommend it.

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I know I've said that before about other episodes, but they are just connected

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in such a fascinating way.

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You can't help but just be drawn into their story. If I remember correctly, in that episode.

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At one point, we were talking about, I think, emotional regulation or differentiation

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or some mental health topic.

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And Steph was sharing an experience that she had. And she was having,

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I think, a little bit of a panic attack.

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And they were in a car. And I just love that Craig said that he wanted to help so bad.

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And they pulled over at the side of the road. And I think he said,

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do you need to chant or do a drum circle?

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And I just thought, those are not the first things that come to my mind when

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I am hoping to help soothe my dear wife.

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I love that that's where they're at. The reason I wanted to share today's interview

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on my podcast is because I've been somewhat obsessed with what I am calling

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the emotional immaturity epidemic.

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I think once you recognize the ways that we are all emotionally immature, you can't unsee it.

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And I think it really helps people show up better in their own relationships.

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And we didn't know what we didn't know of how we show up in immature ways,

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whether it's the all or nothing black or white thinking. I just had a couple

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leave my office, and one of the things I'm seeing so often is one of the people

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in the relationship will shut down and go inward.

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I can check in with them and say, okay, what are you thinking right now?

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And they're saying, I don't really want to say the wrong thing,

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as if there was a right and a wrong thing to say.

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So, they revert back to this emotionally immature way that was helpful.

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As a child, we were able to even dig back into this person's childhood,

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and there wasn't a lot of curiosity about who they were as a kid.

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So they already didn't offer up things about themselves, but even more so,

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then they would hunker down, wait till the storm subsided.

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They don't wanna say the wrong thing and get in more trouble.

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And that kept them alive as a kid, but in their adult relationship,

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it's not very helpful because when one partner was having some big emotions

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and then I watched as this other partner turned inward and shut down,

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then you can see that that partner that was being emotional felt like they were left on their own.

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They felt abandoned, but the little kid and the other partner that shut down

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and didn't want to get in trouble or say the wrong thing, that worked, but it no longer does.

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And we were able to have a really healthy conversation around how to show up

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in a more emotionally mature way.

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And within 10 or 15 minutes, we had solved everything. They lived happily ever

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after and they are done with therapy.

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That is also emotionally mature. That is my magical thinking.

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That actually did not happen, but it really was a good session.

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If you wanna know more about Stephen Craig, go to stephencraig.co.

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I'll have the link in the show notes. And also at some point in the interview,

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I will insert in there a couple of things.

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I've got some information about a cruise that I am participating in that I will

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be doing some speaking, some workshops, and it's with my friend,

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Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, co-host of Love ADHD, the podcast.

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And I will also, for any of you men who hang on until the very end,

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I've got a little bit of a longer commercial.

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Somewhat of a commercial about my men's emotional architects group,

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which is very much ready to start up.

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And that is going to help a lot of us become more emotionally mature.

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So I highly recommend that.

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And as always, please go follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or on TikTok at virtual couch.

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Starting to up the number of live question and answers with my daughter, Sydney.

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So I try to do that once or twice a week. I would love for you to follow me

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on those social media platforms and catch one of those lives.

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If you have questions though, in general, submit them through my website, tonyoverbay.com.

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While you're there, sign up for the newsletter, or you can reach out to me at

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contact at tonyoverbay.com.

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Okay. Without any further ado, let's get to my appearance on the Stephen Craig show.

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Tony, welcome back. We're super excited to have you here. I had this idea in my head too.

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It's gone now, but I just realized as we began, I was going to give you like

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this big introduction. I don't know if that came to me in a dream or not.

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It was like, I don't remember what it was, but here we are.

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Okay. I'll talk about the thing that I was going to do and then not do the thing.

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So then it's really awkward and strange. It was very powerful.

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It's theater of the mind.

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I'm sure the listener right now is thinking of their own powerful introduction of me, even.

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And well if they're listening to the show they know who you are

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because we have been had the pleasure of speaking with you

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yeah it's been like a year since you were on this i don't remember

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i think so about a year wow sounds

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right how did that go so fast i

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don't know i get okay it speeds up the older we get isn't that

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a fact some there's some physics thing that's why i'm a therapist

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i don't know math or physics but there's something to do with time time

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travel time speeding up something about it totally feels like

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it speeds up when you get older right when you were a kid it was so

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slow like you had to wait for summer break and

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then you had to wait for christmas and then you had to wait for your birthday and

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all of it was just so incredibly like come on already i was like waiting for

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18 forever thought i would never never get there now i'm like it's already i've

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already doubled that number like in a blink and then some i'm like how well

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like what you're saying is now it's like, man, it's already Christmas again.

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It's already my birthday.

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It's already summer. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. It happens really fast. Tony, you mentioned emotional immaturity.

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Yeah. We posted this. We had this piece of content that is doing pretty good on Facebook right now.

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It's got over 5 million views and we stole the, it's, it's a repurposed piece

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of content of this woman just flipping a car.

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So it's a, some sort of like weight competition where they strip down a car

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and then you have to flip it over on, on its top and then continue to flip it

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over all the way. Right. She's a badass. She's rolling.

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It's awesome. It's a really cool reel. And then I put in the,

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like on the screen, the text on the screen is women bear, like carrying the

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emotional weight of the relationship.

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And in the clip too, they've got, it's perfectly shot where there's these two

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guys that are like, when she gets it lifted up, they slide in supports underneath

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the tires at the very beginning. So it's like men doing the bare minimum.

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And when it comes to emotional weight, carrying the emotional weight of the

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relationship. So it's sparked quite a bit of conversation.

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There's a handful of comments on there, like thousands of people that are mostly

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men that obviously have an issue with it. Okay.

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And it has really made me think about, because,

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There's a lot of negativity on there, but it's like fallen into a couple of different camps.

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One camp is people that just want to argue the fact that, you know,

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this is bullshit and emotional weight isn't a real thing. And women are the

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ones that bring the emotional weight. So it's like men arguing that this is bullshit.

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And then the next camp is just like complete.

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It's not even an engine in the car. Yeah. Like just completely minimizing the

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woman, right? That she obviously this is a stripped down car,

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like this is a joke, all of those things.

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And then the last one is just pure sexualization of the whole experience.

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And none of it is taking responsibility for, I mean, it's definitely,

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I definitely, you know, framed it in such a way where I was hoping to spark

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something from people because I think it's a really big issue.

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But what it's highlighting for me, because it's gone so big and there's people

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all over the world commenting on it is it's just like the level with which men

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will avoid taking accountability and ownership of a simple thing of,

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hey, maybe you need to look at your emotions.

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And instead everything else that we'll do to kind of avoid that.

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And it's just, it's fascinating, but it's also really disheartening.

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And it's the last couple of days being in the weeds and the comments and responding

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to people and engaging with people.

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I'm just like, holy cow. Like I didn't feel like it was that bad off,

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but it feels like it's pretty bad off where there's a, I mean,

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it's a very small snippet of society.

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Obviously it's like a 5 million views and then 300, not 300,000,

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but like 3000 or 5,000 comments or something like that.

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So definitely a small percentage, but at the same time, I'm like, is it really that bad?

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Are men still so oblivious to the fact that they have to feel and express and

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connect and all of these kinds of different ways? Yeah.

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So it's perfect timing that you're here to talk about it. It really is.

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It's such a good setup and mind if I tangent, and then we'll come and we'll

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make our way there because I think this is so excellent because so when I started,

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so I've got the two podcasts, virtual couch and which is 450 or so episodes

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and waking up to narcissism, which is I think maybe pushing 140 and the waking

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up to narcissism has always had.

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I always had this vision that, and it's funny because the word narcissist is

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thrown around everywhere.

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Everyone's ex is a narcissist. Everybody's boss is a narcissist.

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I do maintain that cats are narcissistic in nature.

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Every little kid is by definition a narcissist. They're so ego,

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egocentric, but the actual population or that could be diagnosed with narcissistic

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personality disorder, but depending on your study is, I don't know, three to 5%.

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So then I've said what we all are though, is emotionally immature.

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And if we start from a place of emotional immaturity, then it's a lot more palatable.

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People are willing to say, okay, that's fair. I've been called a narcissist,

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but I can agree. I'm probably emotionally immature.

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And I thought, and I introduced that concept, I want to say before episode five or six.

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And so then I say continually, and it's a mouthful of somebody who has narcissistic

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personality disorder, or they have narcissistic traits or states or tendencies,

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or they are extremely emotionally immature.

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But I made it a point that I'm willing to say all those words because I want

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that part to be very prominent so we can have the conversation because a narcissist

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is, and what I say often on the podcast is if you are even asking yourself, am I narcissistic?

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You're not because a true narcissist wouldn't do that. Now there's a true narcissist

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would also game the system or weaponize a tool.

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So they'd say, okay, fine. Am I a narcissist?

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I guess I'm not. I just asked myself the question. So there's a whole vibe there

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that is not being very honest about that introspection. but then once we establish

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all right we're all emotionally mature i thought all right i have changed the world but then a mere.

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Two years later and 120, or I guess it would be more, three years later,

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I just, I continue to say emotional immaturity.

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And I'm realizing that I would give these examples and people weren't really internalizing that.

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They were saying, man, she is that way. Yeah.

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Or she's saying, no, he's very immature.

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And then I'm saying, okay, but go back to the part where I'm saying,

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how about we start from a place where we all are immature.

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So there is the baseline, which we will operate today, if that is okay.

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Absolutely. Okay. So now I agree with all of that as well.

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Like that alone right there is something that I can relate to significantly

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over the course of our relationship, where at the beginning I had,

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I mean, massive emotional immaturity.

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And when all of the narcissism started coming on the scene and everybody was

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talking about it so much and you saw so much content surrounding it,

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I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm falling into that camp because I did display so

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many of those behaviors and so many of those things,

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even some of the subtle gaming it and manipulating it to some extent,

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because I was intellectual enough to kind of like recognize,

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but deep down inside, obviously it's really just that emotional immaturity that's taking place.

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Yeah. So I appreciate that too. And so I think let's talk about now what that

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really looks like. And then what really pushed me, I did a two-part series just

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a few weeks ago on what emotional immaturity looks like as an adult.

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And what really brought it home for me was I did a training as a therapist with,

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it's an online training.

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I didn't do it with him directly. I wish I could, but with a guy named Terry Real.

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And he's a therapist that I hear mentioned often. And then his training was

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incredible. And he works a lot with the narcissistic person or the emotionally immature as well.

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And I felt a kindred soul there because that's a population I ended up working

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a lot with are people that are in those relationships.

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But he was able to put this concept together that I so appreciated where he

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said that the things that we did that were adaptive in our childhood to survive

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basically are now maladaptive as adults.

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And it fit right into, oh, those things are emotionally immature,

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which makes sense because they kept us alive as a kid.

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And now we bring them into our adult relationships and they don't work so well.

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So, I'm going to quote a cheat sheet that I made after the episodes and I would

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welcome anybody to reach out to me and I will provide them with this cheat sheet.

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It's just a couple of pages. Um.

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And now I'm going to step even further back in a tangent because on this cheat

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sheet, I quoted a book that I like.

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I don't know if either of you are familiar with the, there's a book called The Silent Patient.

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It's an excellent book. It's written by Alex and I will butcher the last name,

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but I think it's Michelaitis.

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But then it's a mental health book and you can tell that it's not a mental health book.

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It's a fictional book about a patient in a mental health institution that ends

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up, I won't spoil it all for it. It's brilliant.

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It's just such a brilliant book. But you can tell that Alex is either has been

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a therapist, psychologist, or has been pretty engaged in therapy.

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And when I eventually went and tried to find more about the author,

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it looks like he's just very pro-therapy.

00:14:46.821 --> 00:14:51.281
But then he has a follow-up book called The Fury, and it doesn't really focus

00:14:51.281 --> 00:14:52.421
as much on mental health.

00:14:52.541 --> 00:14:57.381
But in the book, he, in his description of therapy through one of the main characters,

00:14:57.721 --> 00:14:59.041
this is what the character said.

00:14:59.181 --> 00:15:03.061
And I think, I'm already telling you, and I think that you must appreciate this

00:15:03.061 --> 00:15:04.141
quote. We'll see if you do.

00:15:04.381 --> 00:15:07.101
Yeah, Steph might say, that's a snooze. get on with it, old man.

00:15:07.801 --> 00:15:11.921
So the character, okay. Okay. So the character says, he says,

00:15:12.061 --> 00:15:13.521
my therapist was called Mariana.

00:15:13.741 --> 00:15:16.621
I remember once she said something chilling and messed up my head for a long

00:15:16.621 --> 00:15:18.761
time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.

00:15:19.121 --> 00:15:22.821
When we're young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens.

00:15:23.081 --> 00:15:27.341
Time stops. It freezes at that moment. A version of us is trapped at that age forever.

00:15:27.621 --> 00:15:30.421
A frightened child is hiding in your mind. It's still unsafe.

00:15:30.641 --> 00:15:31.921
It's still unheard and unloved.

00:15:32.021 --> 00:15:35.221
And the sooner you get in touch with that child and then communicate with them,

00:15:35.321 --> 00:15:36.961
the more harmonious your life will be.

00:15:37.121 --> 00:15:40.981
After all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it? A strong adult body to look

00:15:40.981 --> 00:15:43.861
after him and his interests, to take care of him and protect him.

00:15:43.981 --> 00:15:47.401
You were meant to liberate him, but instead you ended up becoming his jailer.

00:15:47.601 --> 00:15:52.161
And I remember that part hit me so strong where, I mean, yeah,

00:15:52.261 --> 00:15:54.521
right? Let that one set in.

00:15:54.681 --> 00:15:57.041
I don't know. What does that feel like or what are you thinking right now?

00:15:59.861 --> 00:16:02.661
Just that part of like, you were meant to liberate him, but instead

00:16:02.661 --> 00:16:06.441
became their jailer was just that res

00:16:06.441 --> 00:16:09.441
oh my gosh it was with all the inner

00:16:09.441 --> 00:16:12.281
child work that also speak like that

00:16:12.281 --> 00:16:15.701
i have done i know it's a we i'm just like speaking for myself and

00:16:15.701 --> 00:16:19.781
how much of that has been about breaking

00:16:19.781 --> 00:16:22.541
her free breaking them free and that

00:16:22.541 --> 00:16:25.881
like integration and that liberation of it and

00:16:25.881 --> 00:16:29.021
while that's what i'm doing now you can't hear

00:16:29.021 --> 00:16:32.661
that and realize how much it absolutely was a

00:16:32.661 --> 00:16:35.801
gelling and then as i progressed it

00:16:35.801 --> 00:16:40.201
was a i was it was like a gelling with punishment it was like a cruel warden

00:16:40.201 --> 00:16:44.661
because then i was like so mad for all the choices times babe where like like

00:16:44.661 --> 00:16:48.301
in the process of you getting to the spot that you're at now and i did the same

00:16:48.301 --> 00:16:52.321
thing so it's not just like you did this but like the process of recognizing

00:16:52.321 --> 00:16:55.141
parts work and inner child healing and identifying.

00:16:55.989 --> 00:16:58.609
That part existed and you're like, I don't want to deal with it.

00:16:58.709 --> 00:17:02.269
I don't want to like, I don't want to like, you would shun her even more.

00:17:02.569 --> 00:17:05.049
I preferred her to stay buried in the dungeon.

00:17:05.869 --> 00:17:10.369
It's crazy. It took forever before I could go there. Cause it was so painful.

00:17:10.709 --> 00:17:14.409
So, so much, just all of the reasons, right? Just, just from that.

00:17:14.609 --> 00:17:19.289
I'm glad I knew I wrote the book down. I'm going to read that soon. That was so good.

00:17:19.529 --> 00:17:22.749
Well, I appreciate it. When you're saying it's the cruel warden,

00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.989
because that's unfortunately, and I think that just unlocked the whole thing

00:17:25.989 --> 00:17:30.589
I need to talk about on just kind of spitball with you here is I go back to

00:17:30.589 --> 00:17:32.849
why so many of us default to shame.

00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:37.609
And I'm convinced that that is a childhood defense because when you,

00:17:37.889 --> 00:17:41.869
you know, for I think most of your listeners are probably going to know that

00:17:41.869 --> 00:17:44.189
difference between guilt and shame. Guilt, I did something bad.

00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:48.749
Shame, I am bad. And I find that even as the adult self goes to shame,

00:17:48.949 --> 00:17:50.409
they still think that they need

00:17:50.409 --> 00:17:53.889
to beat themselves up in order to improve and even more so with shame.

00:17:54.229 --> 00:17:58.389
And I did an episode a while ago where it felt like I was kicking somebody while they were down.

00:17:58.509 --> 00:18:01.769
But I said, shame actually is pretty selfish because let's say that somebody

00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:04.329
says, this is how I feel about the thing you've done.

00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:08.509
And that person now realizes the impact that their behavior has had on their partner.

00:18:08.749 --> 00:18:13.709
And now they feel worse. And so then they say, oh my gosh, I am a horrible person.

00:18:13.949 --> 00:18:17.289
And now all of a sudden it went back to them. And the person that just opened

00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:19.349
up to them now has to say, hey, it's okay.

00:18:19.989 --> 00:18:23.969
Now you're then caretaking them. Yeah, right? So shame does get you out of a

00:18:23.969 --> 00:18:25.269
jam, which goes back to this.

00:18:25.409 --> 00:18:30.189
Your childhood adaptation is now maladaptive as an adult.

00:18:30.929 --> 00:18:35.549
But you can see that it kept you alive as a kid because a lot of times the only

00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:39.749
way people would get out of something as a little kid was to feel like garbage.

00:18:39.989 --> 00:18:43.629
And I think that our own emotionally immature parents, bless their hearts,

00:18:43.789 --> 00:18:44.669
didn't know what they didn't know.

00:18:44.669 --> 00:18:47.929
But they don't think we're taking it serious enough

00:18:47.929 --> 00:18:50.869
if we don't hang our head and say what a piece of garbage we

00:18:50.869 --> 00:18:53.569
are then they're saying okay no it's okay it looks

00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:57.289
like you get it and now they rescue us it's okay champ but i'm glad that you

00:18:57.289 --> 00:19:01.129
understand what a piece of garbage you are and so that's what we've been modeled

00:19:01.129 --> 00:19:05.889
now bring that into our adult right craig what are you feeling now oh my goodness

00:19:05.889 --> 00:19:10.149
i can relate to that right yeah yeah i can feel that and i can also see the

00:19:10.149 --> 00:19:11.909
way that I parented like that.

00:19:12.149 --> 00:19:16.429
And it's like, I don't think you really understand the significance here.

00:19:16.549 --> 00:19:20.349
I don't think you really get it. And then I'm like, okay, maybe you do get it.

00:19:20.729 --> 00:19:23.949
Yeah. And then when they start to feel like, okay. And then they get up.

00:19:24.329 --> 00:19:26.009
Well, come here. Exactly what you just said.

00:19:26.969 --> 00:19:32.869
Damn. So crazy. Okay. And I'm digging this to laying this stuff out this way as well.

00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:37.729
So now, yeah, that guilt, that shame. So childhood adaptation that we bring in.

00:19:37.729 --> 00:19:41.449
And so now look at it like, all right, your little kid and this is I and Craig

00:19:41.449 --> 00:19:45.969
loving some of the content you've been putting out lately about men and feelings

00:19:45.969 --> 00:19:48.489
because I'm with you. I think that.

00:19:49.310 --> 00:19:52.070
Even a good parent, this is what they did with our feelings.

00:19:52.070 --> 00:19:55.790
If I said, man, I just feel so bad about something like, hey, it's not a big deal.

00:19:55.930 --> 00:20:00.630
Don't worry about it or get over it. And then I'm basically feeling like,

00:20:01.030 --> 00:20:02.550
well, man, I feel like it's a big deal.

00:20:02.570 --> 00:20:08.130
So I guess I'm wrong about my feelings and I need somebody over time to fix

00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:09.710
it for me, to tell me that I'm okay.

00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:12.850
So I'm going to go to people and say, man, I think this, or I feel this way

00:20:12.850 --> 00:20:15.810
waiting for somebody to say, oh, it's okay. You don't need to worry about that.

00:20:16.090 --> 00:20:18.230
But then if they say, oh, that is bad. Then I'm like, oh man,

00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:19.970
now I feel worse. Then I go to shame.

00:20:20.230 --> 00:20:23.210
Gosh, I'm just such a piece of garbage. Oh, no, you're good. You're okay.

00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:28.210
So we just create this loop where we don't really have to deal with our own emotions.

00:20:28.350 --> 00:20:31.970
And I think that's part of this immaturity. I'm going to call it an emotional

00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:36.090
immaturity epidemic where then we don't really have to take ownership or accountability

00:20:36.090 --> 00:20:38.970
of things because that feels really bad. Our feelings are bad.

00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.170
So I'm either going to push them away because that worked as a kid.

00:20:42.410 --> 00:20:44.010
Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.

00:20:44.330 --> 00:20:47.930
If I can hang in there and say I didn't do it or the dog did it or whatever,

00:20:48.090 --> 00:20:51.950
and I hold to my guns, I will get out of it. And so we learn childhood.

00:20:52.550 --> 00:20:55.450
Gaslighting is a childhood defensive mechanism. Yeah.

00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:59.910
Yeah. It's built in from the factory. Now look at that, where we bring that into our adulthood.

00:20:59.910 --> 00:21:04.590
It was somewhat adaptive as a child, but it's maladaptive in our adult relationships

00:21:04.590 --> 00:21:08.170
because it does not build connection because there are so many times that our

00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:12.810
partner knows that we did it, but we're so good at it. I, but I didn't.

00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:18.480
And we will hold that to the very end until finally they say okay i mean i guess

00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:24.240
maybe i am crazy and then to that little kid that just gas lit as an adult who

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:27.740
made it out of another one and so then they don't have to think about it anymore

00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:30.160
but to their partner they're having this.

00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:33.760
Continued pattern of okay maybe i

00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:36.480
maybe i'm going crazy because i just saw this or you did

00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.220
say that or with that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism now

00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:43.320
we can get into we're going to get into so many other good versions or

00:21:43.320 --> 00:21:46.100
examples of emotional immaturity because now I just

00:21:46.100 --> 00:21:49.240
back to that quote I think it just it's so just beautifully

00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.320
illustrates the process of then emotional development because those moments

00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:56.120
that are locked in us so let me go back to the feelings emotions so I think

00:21:56.120 --> 00:22:01.200
our what this talks about is our child our inner child then imprints the memory

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.420
and or the feeling the feeling more feeling the emotion and then it says okay

00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:08.620
I don't know what to do with this thing right now.

00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:13.320
But then when you grow up, you'll deal with it, right? Because you'll be a big kid.

00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.900
So then we grow up and we miss the memo somewhere along the way.

00:22:17.080 --> 00:22:20.360
So then here comes that emotion and our inner child is saying,

00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:25.000
okay, good. The big kid's going to take over. But then the big kid is not there.

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.280
It's just the little kid and wearing grown up clothes. And when you look at

00:22:29.280 --> 00:22:31.400
it that way, then you can start to see our emotional maturity.

00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:35.140
So I wrote a couple of examples and these are basically, spoiler alert,

00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:36.760
these are kind of me is what they are.

00:22:37.020 --> 00:22:40.860
But I said, what's fascinating, how these frozen moments manifest in adult relationships,

00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:44.740
the child who learned to people please to avoid conflict becomes the adult who can't set boundaries.

00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:49.280
And I look at where I'm at now and I make jokes about it, but I have such a

00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:51.200
hard time saying no to anyone in my family.

00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.120
And that's why I work more than I ever thought I would work.

00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:59.040
That's why I will just make more money because I don't want to say no if somebody

00:22:59.040 --> 00:23:00.540
wants something or they need something.

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:05.080
And my joke has lately been that I'm at least learning to pause before I say

00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:07.520
yes. So it used to be, hey, dad, can I? And I'm like, yeah, you bet.

00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.240
And now I'll at least let them ask the thing and then I'll say yes.

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.040
So, I mean, there's growth there, but I still that people pleaser me.

00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:19.480
I don't want anybody to feel bad or I don't want them to think something about

00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:21.020
me. We'll get to that one in a minute too.

00:23:21.560 --> 00:23:24.600
Or the child who learned to shut down emotions becomes the partner who can't

00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:25.460
express vulnerability.

00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.320
I was talking with a client recently who they lost their dad early.

00:23:29.620 --> 00:23:31.240
They were the youngest of a whole bunch of kids.

00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:35.960
And then they had a stepfather that wasn't really engaged. And so they just

00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:41.180
learn that, okay, my, I just need to fade into the background and I will survive.

00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:45.980
Now in their adult relationships, they're more of that avoidant personality. Yeah.

00:23:46.448 --> 00:23:50.768
And when their partner really wants to know them, they just don't say anything.

00:23:50.948 --> 00:23:53.068
And then the partner eventually creates a narrative.

00:23:53.288 --> 00:23:57.008
Okay. I mean, I'll, I guess we'll talk about it later or I must be the problem.

00:23:57.488 --> 00:24:00.068
And so you can see where that's unhealthy in the adult relationship,

00:24:00.068 --> 00:24:02.208
but it was adaptive in their childhood.

00:24:02.668 --> 00:24:07.068
So I just think that the, all these immature behaviors that we're doing,

00:24:07.248 --> 00:24:12.048
we need to thank our inner child when we recognize them because it got us here.

00:24:12.288 --> 00:24:13.488
Thanks. Thanks little buddy.

00:24:13.788 --> 00:24:16.688
But we got to let the big kid take over. but then the big kid doesn't really

00:24:16.688 --> 00:24:19.128
know what to do, or they're still afraid that they'll do it wrong,

00:24:19.288 --> 00:24:22.068
which is yet another version of emotional immaturity.

00:24:22.528 --> 00:24:26.588
Or this one is me as well. I put in here the child who needed constant reassurance

00:24:26.588 --> 00:24:29.588
becomes the adult seeking endless external validation.

00:24:29.808 --> 00:24:33.328
Now we're getting into those narcissistic traits and tendencies because I have

00:24:33.328 --> 00:24:37.228
needed validation my whole life to know, am I okay? Do you guys like me?

00:24:37.748 --> 00:24:41.708
And so I think it's interesting. I had to be a class officer.

00:24:41.868 --> 00:24:44.628
I had to be a class clown. I had to write a humor column in a newspaper.

00:24:44.848 --> 00:24:47.428
I can't just have one podcast. I got to have a whole bunch of podcasts.

00:24:47.568 --> 00:24:48.848
I got to speak everywhere.

00:24:49.068 --> 00:24:53.088
And then I didn't realize how much that was parents that weren't really seeing

00:24:53.088 --> 00:24:54.668
me. They had a lot of their own stuff going on.

00:24:54.788 --> 00:24:57.308
So I'm like, I'm over here. Hey, if I do really good at sports,

00:24:57.388 --> 00:24:59.288
will you guys like me? Okay. A little bit there.

00:24:59.788 --> 00:25:03.808
And then what's really funny to me too, is I was an ultra marathon runner for

00:25:03.808 --> 00:25:05.928
25, 30 years. That's not just a marathon.

00:25:06.128 --> 00:25:10.088
Ultra marathons are anything longer than 26 miles. So I had to do 32 miles and

00:25:10.088 --> 00:25:13.468
I had to do 50 miles and I had to do a hundred K 62 miles and I had to do a

00:25:13.468 --> 00:25:15.908
hundred milers. Then I had to do 24 hour events.

00:25:16.108 --> 00:25:21.088
I had to run 125 miles, 133 miles. And now I realized that was part of that.

00:25:21.468 --> 00:25:25.068
When is enough? Why couldn't I have stopped at a 5k? That would have been kind of nice.

00:25:25.588 --> 00:25:28.568
So it's that I needed endless external validation seeking.

00:25:28.588 --> 00:25:34.248
And that has been a lot, I'm sure in my adult relationship because it was just,

00:25:34.408 --> 00:25:36.728
I now realize I never got enough of it.

00:25:37.468 --> 00:25:39.608
And so I've had to really work on that.

00:25:40.908 --> 00:25:45.208
That's been a huge thing for me lately too, Tony, is unpacking what that actually

00:25:45.208 --> 00:25:49.908
looks like in my life because I can relate so much to it where all of the,

00:25:50.068 --> 00:25:53.668
like I used to be, I wasn't like the class officer or anything like that,

00:25:53.768 --> 00:25:57.448
but I was always like the class clown kind of, but like the crazy kid that was

00:25:57.448 --> 00:26:01.628
trying to seek attention by doing all sorts of like jumping off of things and

00:26:01.628 --> 00:26:06.288
all these kinds of crazy stunts and all of this stuff to just please see me,

00:26:06.428 --> 00:26:08.828
please validate me, please tell me that I'm worth something.

00:26:09.288 --> 00:26:14.028
And that's consistently continued all the way up and through adulthood up until,

00:26:14.228 --> 00:26:17.448
I mean, it still happens. It's not something that just kind of like goes away.

00:26:17.588 --> 00:26:22.008
It's still something that I'm constantly having to pay attention to.

00:26:22.208 --> 00:26:26.928
Is this act driven by that internal need for wanting to have validation externally

00:26:26.928 --> 00:26:29.928
for somebody to come along and say, you're actually worth something?

00:26:30.128 --> 00:26:33.648
Yeah. Or is that something that I can learn to continually cultivate and create

00:26:33.648 --> 00:26:37.008
inside of me? And I don't think it's a mistake that we've gotten to the point

00:26:37.008 --> 00:26:38.048
in our life where we're like,

00:26:38.481 --> 00:26:42.301
creating content and we're on social media and doing all of these things, right?

00:26:42.361 --> 00:26:46.141
It's just this massive externalization of that thing where it's like,

00:26:46.261 --> 00:26:52.361
Hey, universe out there, please like, and follow a chair and tell us that we're worth something.

00:26:52.981 --> 00:26:57.881
It's funny. When I've thought about that too, where I love everything that I'm

00:26:57.881 --> 00:27:01.141
doing in therapy, the acceptance and commitment therapy has changed my life.

00:27:01.281 --> 00:27:04.521
Learning about emotional maturity and validation. I've learned so much about

00:27:04.521 --> 00:27:08.181
my ADHD that I had a separate podcast about that for a while.

00:27:08.381 --> 00:27:10.481
I had to learn this parenting technique.

00:27:10.901 --> 00:27:15.761
I've had to navigate my faith crisis. And all of those things are part of my

00:27:15.761 --> 00:27:17.221
practice. I have content on.

00:27:17.381 --> 00:27:21.321
And in my mind, it's just in the past, it was just, no, I just want to help people.

00:27:21.441 --> 00:27:23.341
But yeah, I've thought over the

00:27:23.341 --> 00:27:27.741
last little while that, or if people agree with me, then I must be okay.

00:27:27.961 --> 00:27:31.581
I must be doing it right, which goes back to one of the most core,

00:27:32.121 --> 00:27:33.881
fundamental, emotionally immature.

00:27:34.341 --> 00:27:37.121
I don't know what i'm calling them characteristics though is that black

00:27:37.121 --> 00:27:39.901
or white thinking and what i'd love to do is take

00:27:39.901 --> 00:27:43.181
you through a bunch of these that that i'll give you the kid example

00:27:43.181 --> 00:27:46.241
and then we can look at how it shows up in adult relationships and i would love

00:27:46.241 --> 00:27:49.181
to know what comes up for you there if you have examples of that yourselves

00:27:49.181 --> 00:27:54.341
i don't know you're game like we're gonna check every box oh i hope so i mean

00:27:54.341 --> 00:27:58.921
i there's a part of me that thinks that if people don't then it's funny this

00:27:58.921 --> 00:28:02.781
is why i think that the black and white or all or nothing thinking is at the core because it really.

00:28:04.048 --> 00:28:08.268
It's the, there's a right way and a wrong way. There is a, I don't want to say

00:28:08.268 --> 00:28:13.188
the wrong thing because black and white, all or nothing, good, bad, right, wrong.

00:28:13.428 --> 00:28:18.288
And so children, they see the world in absolutes. So things are all good or they're all bad.

00:28:18.408 --> 00:28:23.188
So in adults, it ends up showing up as ultimatums or labeling partners as always

00:28:23.188 --> 00:28:24.848
doing something or never doing something.

00:28:25.008 --> 00:28:29.608
And then that bleeds into the relationship itself. And it cycles between when

00:28:29.608 --> 00:28:34.968
my spouse is doing things I like, then I idealize the relationship.

00:28:35.188 --> 00:28:39.288
And then when they do something I don't like, then I devalue the relationship.

00:28:39.628 --> 00:28:44.048
And so, we get into this mix where we're just trying to manage each other's

00:28:44.048 --> 00:28:45.448
emotions to get the validation.

00:28:45.868 --> 00:28:49.388
And where I see this happen a lot lately, because I've been bringing this stuff

00:28:49.388 --> 00:28:53.368
into my couples therapy a lot, is someone will express themselves and they'll

00:28:53.368 --> 00:28:54.248
do it in a good, healthy way.

00:28:54.348 --> 00:28:57.048
I know last time I was on, I talked about my beloved four pillars of a connected

00:28:57.048 --> 00:29:00.488
conversation and we're showing up and we're trying to be genuinely curious and

00:29:00.488 --> 00:29:02.468
all those things. But the other person just kind of shuts down.

00:29:02.628 --> 00:29:05.748
And now I can look over and say, hey, what's going on here? And usually they'll

00:29:05.748 --> 00:29:07.028
say, I don't know. I just, I don't know.

00:29:07.248 --> 00:29:10.828
And now I can say, all right, child, little child inside of you,

00:29:11.028 --> 00:29:12.628
are you worried you're going to say the wrong thing?

00:29:12.848 --> 00:29:17.348
And most every time, I'm not a big all or nothing guy, but most every time it's,

00:29:17.448 --> 00:29:19.008
yeah, I don't want to say it in the wrong way.

00:29:19.648 --> 00:29:20.788
And that's where I'm saying, oh,

00:29:20.908 --> 00:29:25.448
okay. So this is your inner child that is worried about getting it wrong.

00:29:25.688 --> 00:29:29.048
And the very first person that I brought this up with, she was awesome.

00:29:29.108 --> 00:29:30.928
And she talked about getting in trouble.

00:29:31.008 --> 00:29:34.268
And I think it was like violin lessons or piano lessons as a kid.

00:29:34.668 --> 00:29:38.508
And then she had learned that then she, if she just hunkered down,

00:29:38.808 --> 00:29:42.168
she would eventually, after being told that she did things wrong or bad,

00:29:42.308 --> 00:29:43.708
the right way to do things.

00:29:43.888 --> 00:29:47.748
And then she would then echo it. And then she would get the praise and get out of the situation.

00:29:47.968 --> 00:29:51.588
So she had learned that when things got intense, if I just hunkered down,

00:29:51.808 --> 00:29:54.968
eventually I'll be told what I need to say what the right thing will be.

00:29:55.802 --> 00:29:58.982
So you see that black or white thinking and so many things will go back to that,

00:29:59.222 --> 00:30:01.362
that I don't want to say the wrong thing.

00:30:02.142 --> 00:30:05.882
But I like this idea. There's this spot in there, Tony, where you were mentioning

00:30:05.882 --> 00:30:09.182
like the, because I relate so much to that black and white thinking.

00:30:09.322 --> 00:30:13.042
And it was a big chunk of what I had a really good therapist that I worked with

00:30:13.042 --> 00:30:15.742
a few years ago during COVID and everything like that.

00:30:16.282 --> 00:30:19.882
And that's oftentimes the thing that he would always bring me back to is it's

00:30:19.882 --> 00:30:24.522
can't it be both, can't it be both, can't it be both. like this mantra that

00:30:24.522 --> 00:30:26.422
he kept repeating over and over again.

00:30:26.542 --> 00:30:29.162
And every time he would say it, I would get so pissed off at him.

00:30:29.382 --> 00:30:32.502
And I'm like, yes, yes, it can be both. Fine. Okay.

00:30:32.682 --> 00:30:37.402
Yes, yes. Fine. It can be both. But I didn't pick up on like when we are in

00:30:37.402 --> 00:30:41.082
activation together, like when we're fighting and arguing with each other,

00:30:41.222 --> 00:30:46.282
we will very much use that language of you always do this or you never do this.

00:30:46.802 --> 00:30:51.302
And I haven't put that piece together that that's the manifestation of that same dynamic.

00:30:51.602 --> 00:30:55.102
Cause we, I mean, we do that. I was thinking, I was thinking about how you do

00:30:55.102 --> 00:30:56.742
that a lot. You were thinking how I do that.

00:30:57.062 --> 00:31:00.122
I was, it's funny. Like, I wonder what part of this is. Cause I was like,

00:31:00.182 --> 00:31:02.142
Oh man, we used to do that so much.

00:31:02.902 --> 00:31:07.982
And what actually started helping with that is I would tell you,

00:31:08.102 --> 00:31:11.202
I'm like, you always, or you never. And you were like, I never.

00:31:11.882 --> 00:31:15.182
And then just like the way I was like, okay, actually you do it a lot.

00:31:15.422 --> 00:31:19.342
You do do it a lot. And just, you're not doing it right now about this,

00:31:19.862 --> 00:31:24.082
but you like category, I can't think of the word. Categorized or?

00:31:24.322 --> 00:31:28.002
Yeah, all of the nevers. Like when you're in that space, your mind isn't looking

00:31:28.002 --> 00:31:33.842
to bring peace in that situation or look at the full perspective.

00:31:34.042 --> 00:31:39.222
It's looking to validate your emotional or your reaction, your feeling that

00:31:39.222 --> 00:31:40.402
it's trying to prove you right.

00:31:40.722 --> 00:31:45.022
So you're not able to quite see that and you're only looking for,

00:31:45.282 --> 00:31:46.942
let me show you why I'm right right now.

00:31:46.942 --> 00:31:52.742
In a deep core level and it's so to be able to catch that and go oh wait a minute okay.

00:31:53.342 --> 00:31:56.142
And also i want to say before we go into this and all

00:31:56.142 --> 00:31:59.402
these like our listeners that are and your listeners that are like oh my gosh

00:31:59.402 --> 00:32:04.682
i'm checking all these boxes it's like how could we not oh it's okay it's okay

00:32:04.682 --> 00:32:09.382
yeah one of the i'd say the main feedback and i've received more feedback from

00:32:09.382 --> 00:32:13.602
these this these two episodes i've done around this than i have in a long time and a

00:32:13.682 --> 00:32:16.422
of it is i so see this i identify and it's

00:32:16.422 --> 00:32:19.302
basically saying now what do i do and i

00:32:19.302 --> 00:32:22.262
i got to throw a part three out there and say oh my bad i

00:32:22.262 --> 00:32:25.022
just think it's cool to know right now we'll get to the what you do with it

00:32:25.022 --> 00:32:29.962
later because i love this path of like path of enlightenment of where we didn't

00:32:29.962 --> 00:32:33.402
know what we didn't know now we know and we're not exactly sure what to do or

00:32:33.402 --> 00:32:37.662
we do sometimes and then that's probably where we'll spend the most time it's

00:32:37.662 --> 00:32:40.142
frustrating because sometimes we wish we just didn't know and then eventually

00:32:40.142 --> 00:32:43.402
you'll get to this part where i do whatever I need to do more than I don't.

00:32:43.602 --> 00:32:46.222
And then the last part of that is I have become it is.

00:32:46.902 --> 00:32:52.402
And and so we're in that that awkward part right now where oh my gosh, now I know. And what's,

00:32:52.903 --> 00:32:56.383
interesting is then the little child's going to come in and hang her head.

00:32:56.543 --> 00:32:59.523
Oh man, I do that stuff. But I just wanted to be, oh, check it out.

00:32:59.703 --> 00:33:02.683
I totally do that. That is a thing. How cool is that?

00:33:02.803 --> 00:33:05.743
Now I know, but I guess I'm trying to sell that.

00:33:05.863 --> 00:33:08.663
So I like that you're saying that. And I want to say too, the all or nothing

00:33:08.663 --> 00:33:11.983
black or white thinking, I have to tell you what that looks like from a couple's therapist.

00:33:12.083 --> 00:33:14.183
If I'm watching the couple on

00:33:14.183 --> 00:33:17.623
the couch in front of me, and I brought awareness to this for a long time,

00:33:17.903 --> 00:33:21.983
because I would say, don't use all or nothing statements, because the second

00:33:21.983 --> 00:33:26.123
that the, well, the say, the husband says, and you never say that you love me,

00:33:26.263 --> 00:33:29.863
the wife is not leaning in with empathy going, wow, that would be really difficult.

00:33:30.063 --> 00:33:33.623
If to you, it feels like I never, they, she's sitting, you watch her kind of

00:33:33.623 --> 00:33:36.523
tune out a little bit. Cause she's thinking of, okay, no, I said it yesterday.

00:33:36.923 --> 00:33:39.303
And almost like she wants to raise her hand. Hey, hang on. Let me,

00:33:39.383 --> 00:33:43.903
if I can just correct that, then we can move on. But that's not the point. All the time. Okay.

00:33:44.523 --> 00:33:49.643
As soon as she'll say something along those lines of you never do this thing.

00:33:49.803 --> 00:33:53.123
And I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, okay, literally I did it yesterday.

00:33:53.123 --> 00:33:55.863
I did it like 15 minutes before we had this conversation.

00:33:56.003 --> 00:33:58.103
I do this thing on the regular.

00:33:58.463 --> 00:34:01.383
Do you know what I mean? Whatever it is, right? There's so many different examples of it.

00:34:01.923 --> 00:34:04.623
Well, then we get to go into victim mode and go, I can't believe you don't think

00:34:04.623 --> 00:34:08.403
I ever do that. And now I just made it about me and that will get us out in the weeds.

00:34:08.603 --> 00:34:12.343
So even in just basic couples therapy, I'm trying to bring awareness to that

00:34:12.343 --> 00:34:14.243
of even just changing that language to,

00:34:14.403 --> 00:34:17.143
and I don't, and i don't feel like you often do this or i don't think you often

00:34:17.143 --> 00:34:22.143
do this or i don't think that you it seems like it has been a long time since

00:34:22.143 --> 00:34:26.103
you said this versus the you haven't said this even if you give a time frame

00:34:26.103 --> 00:34:29.523
that's another one too you haven't said this in years then the person's immediately

00:34:29.523 --> 00:34:34.683
going through i don't think it's been years and you just watch that vibe from the couple's therapist.

00:34:35.448 --> 00:34:40.208
View and you know that at that moment, we've kind of lost the momentum.

00:34:40.428 --> 00:34:43.628
I really like that you're bringing that up. So that's just the first one,

00:34:43.788 --> 00:34:45.448
the black or white thinking, all or nothing thinking.

00:34:45.688 --> 00:34:49.848
The second one is my favorite because as I was creating the content,

00:34:49.848 --> 00:34:52.288
I realized, oh man, this makes so much sense.

00:34:52.408 --> 00:34:55.368
So I don't really like opening my mail at all.

00:34:55.528 --> 00:34:57.768
I don't like looking at my bank account.

00:34:58.268 --> 00:35:03.848
And as long as nobody comes and gets me, it seems like it's okay.

00:35:03.988 --> 00:35:09.528
But I'm not gonna lie i've had to pay some extra taxes currently i've had to

00:35:09.528 --> 00:35:14.508
pay lots of late registration fees for vehicles and i've got a lot of things

00:35:14.508 --> 00:35:18.808
set up on auto pay but other things i don't and my stack of mail will be insane

00:35:18.808 --> 00:35:21.608
and i'm sure i'm the only person that's ever dealt with that.

00:35:22.428 --> 00:35:25.228
Craig you're not that'd be

00:35:25.228 --> 00:35:29.208
me oh that's you step i love it okay it's

00:35:29.208 --> 00:35:31.968
so bad that i have several emails not because i really

00:35:31.968 --> 00:35:34.808
need them but because i'm like okay i can't handle that one anymore i'll to start

00:35:34.808 --> 00:35:37.928
a new one oh that's even better this will be for only my important

00:35:37.928 --> 00:35:40.868
ones now there we go i love that i

00:35:40.868 --> 00:35:44.068
don't get rid of them they just have like oh my gosh okay

00:35:44.068 --> 00:35:49.048
so on it but okay this is the best so this one is the it's the magical thinking

00:35:49.048 --> 00:35:52.948
and welcome to the world of magical thinking because this one it's and this

00:35:52.948 --> 00:35:56.928
is uh we'll talk we'll deal with it later the we'll talk about the difficult

00:35:56.928 --> 00:36:02.848
things later that's magical or i will and what what it's about is that when you're a kid,

00:36:03.128 --> 00:36:06.408
kids believe that their thoughts can influence their external reality.

00:36:06.628 --> 00:36:08.188
And it's in so many different ways.

00:36:08.428 --> 00:36:12.388
If I don't leave my stuffed animals in a good position on my bed when I go to

00:36:12.388 --> 00:36:15.848
school, then they might get disappointed by the time I get home.

00:36:15.948 --> 00:36:19.048
Or I was listening to this podcast, this guy, Derek Thompson,

00:36:19.148 --> 00:36:20.308
I really like him. He's such an intellectual.

00:36:20.568 --> 00:36:23.968
But he just mentioned this the other day where he said up until his 20s, he thought if I.

00:36:25.087 --> 00:36:28.467
Type of sock that I'll have a better day or I'll meet somebody.

00:36:28.727 --> 00:36:33.247
And I do believe that we probably all still have bits of this magical thinking.

00:36:33.907 --> 00:36:38.507
Oh, I still definitely do. Okay. Yeah. And there's parts of me that I'm like,

00:36:38.627 --> 00:36:40.907
I'm not letting that go. Oh, good. And that's what I'm going to say.

00:36:41.427 --> 00:36:44.247
Acceptance of that. Absolute acceptance of that, I think is one of the best

00:36:44.247 --> 00:36:47.427
things is it goes back to the first thing we talked about. It isn't bad.

00:36:47.727 --> 00:36:50.947
It's not, there's not a bad or good or an all or nothing or a black or white.

00:36:51.227 --> 00:36:54.647
I just want to say, oh that is it just is and we

00:36:54.647 --> 00:36:57.587
might even believe that it really does lead to

00:36:57.587 --> 00:37:00.327
magical outcomes and that's okay because who am i

00:37:00.327 --> 00:37:03.667
to tell somebody that that isn't true so i

00:37:03.667 --> 00:37:06.387
just like bringing awareness to this but what is fascinating about this is

00:37:06.387 --> 00:37:10.187
and this is where this made so much sense to me is that we're supposed to grow

00:37:10.187 --> 00:37:14.907
out of that to a point because we we have this like cause and effect relationship

00:37:14.907 --> 00:37:19.767
that is supposed to come to us as we emotionally mature but the cause of me

00:37:19.767 --> 00:37:23.267
not opening my mail has absolutely led to the effect of me paying late fees,

00:37:23.387 --> 00:37:25.187
but I have not done anything about it.

00:37:25.307 --> 00:37:29.407
So, I haven't, that cause and effect relationship hasn't been enough to cause

00:37:29.407 --> 00:37:31.347
me to become more emotionally mature on that.

00:37:31.727 --> 00:37:34.827
And I've even noticed that after I put this content together,

00:37:34.827 --> 00:37:39.567
I did deal with some things, some IRS things that I just kept kicking the can

00:37:39.567 --> 00:37:42.647
down the road. And it turned out they were worse than I had anticipated.

00:37:42.847 --> 00:37:47.047
So, then you don't even get the Disney movie version where, and it turned out it wasn't so bad.

00:37:47.267 --> 00:37:53.387
And I actually made money oh no it was worse but yeah it's part of being an adult apparently.

00:37:54.255 --> 00:37:57.795
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we had to deal with all of that.

00:37:58.015 --> 00:38:01.575
Like, I still, like Steph was saying, I mean, I still have a lot of it.

00:38:01.695 --> 00:38:06.115
And I mean, honestly, Tony, the idea of like magical thinking is something that

00:38:06.115 --> 00:38:11.335
we have come to embrace at this point in our life from like this perspective

00:38:11.335 --> 00:38:14.915
of very much cultivating and creating that type of energy.

00:38:15.055 --> 00:38:18.115
Yeah. The innocence of childhood and leaning into it.

00:38:18.115 --> 00:38:23.655
And then also the missing component for us was the mature adult part of it,

00:38:23.795 --> 00:38:26.535
where like part of the reasons why in a healthy environment,

00:38:26.535 --> 00:38:31.195
the child can have magical thinking and live in fantasy because all of their

00:38:31.195 --> 00:38:34.655
other needs are being taken care of by healthy parents. Right.

00:38:35.015 --> 00:38:39.455
Yeah. They're in that space, like providing the safe container for that magic

00:38:39.455 --> 00:38:41.755
to exist. And I love that.

00:38:42.135 --> 00:38:47.075
And we just had to learn how to do both at the same time. So like we still live

00:38:47.075 --> 00:38:51.415
in this kind of like, I don't want to say a fantasy place, but like we were

00:38:51.415 --> 00:38:53.135
driving around. So we're in Tennessee, right?

00:38:53.475 --> 00:38:57.975
And one of the things that we did not expect when we moved here was lightning bugs.

00:38:58.215 --> 00:39:01.055
So there's fireflies. I was literally about to say lightning bugs because I

00:39:01.055 --> 00:39:03.855
grew up there and now I wish I would have because that would have been magical, right?

00:39:04.115 --> 00:39:07.195
Yeah. It's still magical. It's still magical, Tony. Like it's the time of year

00:39:07.195 --> 00:39:09.895
right now where they're coming out. So we're driving at night,

00:39:10.035 --> 00:39:13.535
we're coming home and we kind of live in the woods. And so suddenly it's like

00:39:13.535 --> 00:39:18.115
the whole woods are just lighting up with fireflies as you're driving along. It's beautiful.

00:39:18.335 --> 00:39:21.715
Like, it's amazing. And we're sitting there like we live in a magical forest.

00:39:21.855 --> 00:39:23.975
This is a magical fairy forest that we live in.

00:39:24.155 --> 00:39:26.495
The proof is evident all around us, right?

00:39:26.895 --> 00:39:31.495
Yeah. We're missing that component of the healthy, mature adult that is able

00:39:31.495 --> 00:39:36.575
to make sure that that child still has that safe container to play and to be a kid in.

00:39:36.955 --> 00:39:40.235
So that's the kind of part that we were that we were missing and that we've

00:39:40.235 --> 00:39:42.575
learned how to kind of cultivate. We're giving it to ourselves now.

00:39:42.735 --> 00:39:45.115
Yeah. We're like, damn right, it's a magical fairy forest.

00:39:45.435 --> 00:39:48.695
Exactly. But then if that magical fit, then if I was waiting for the fairy to

00:39:48.695 --> 00:39:50.895
come pay my taxes, that might be a little extreme.

00:39:51.590 --> 00:39:57.670
Yeah. Unless there's a fairy listening that would like to alleviate me of my taxes.

00:39:57.950 --> 00:40:03.330
Exactly. My tax debt. So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I loved them both.

00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:06.530
You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me and suddenly I am floating through

00:40:06.530 --> 00:40:12.370
life with soft serve ice cream in one hand and absolutely no idea what day it is in the other.

00:40:12.550 --> 00:40:16.110
I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but regardless, it is a perfect reset.

00:40:16.590 --> 00:40:19.930
And I also absolutely love what I do as a therapist.

00:40:20.190 --> 00:40:24.770
So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about things

00:40:24.770 --> 00:40:28.210
like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional

00:40:28.210 --> 00:40:33.090
immaturity or ADHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation.

00:40:33.370 --> 00:40:37.110
So if you were to see me on one of these cruises and you have a question,

00:40:37.350 --> 00:40:39.150
you are absolutely not bugging me.

00:40:39.430 --> 00:40:43.050
And true, I'm diagnosing you, but it's in the most lovable way.

00:40:43.350 --> 00:40:49.390
Now that is why I am truly excited to be the special guest on the ICU Living

00:40:49.390 --> 00:40:54.410
Cruise, a five-night Western Caribbean cruise, January 24th through the 29th.

00:40:55.070 --> 00:41:00.750
2026, with my good friend and cruise mastermind, headliner, and I guess we could

00:41:00.750 --> 00:41:03.850
technically say maybe cruise director, Julie DeJesus.

00:41:04.250 --> 00:41:08.430
And this is honestly the best of all worlds because you're going to be able

00:41:08.430 --> 00:41:12.170
to get away from the day-to-day grind, connect with people who care about personal

00:41:12.170 --> 00:41:15.530
growth, mental health, all the things that really matter. Plus,

00:41:15.690 --> 00:41:17.690
again, you've got ice cream, lava cake.

00:41:18.050 --> 00:41:21.930
So whether you're working on your mental health or your relationship or looking

00:41:21.930 --> 00:41:25.910
to just boost your resilience or you just need an excuse to finally take a vacation,

00:41:26.310 --> 00:41:28.390
this cruise is exactly what you need.

00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:33.030
And parents, good news, kids set sail on this one for free so you don't even

00:41:33.030 --> 00:41:34.030
have to hunt down a babysitter.

00:41:34.621 --> 00:41:41.121
So go to julie-dejesus.com slash cruise, or you can look in the show notes of

00:41:41.121 --> 00:41:45.901
this podcast episode or in my link tree or anywhere to get all of the details.

00:41:45.941 --> 00:41:47.341
You can lock in your early bird special.

00:41:47.481 --> 00:41:51.881
You can reserve your spot for some exclusive dining and conversation with Julie and me.

00:41:51.981 --> 00:41:55.881
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00:41:55.881 --> 00:41:58.301
overthinkers, or just bring yourself. We would love to have you there.

00:41:58.461 --> 00:42:01.641
And I skipped the whole, the biggest part of this magical

00:42:01.641 --> 00:42:04.821
thinking is because I have a one-year-old grandson now

00:42:04.821 --> 00:42:07.541
that is that's why we moved to Arizona where we did

00:42:07.541 --> 00:42:10.401
and in it this was around Easter

00:42:10.401 --> 00:42:13.361
when I was putting this stuff together and he really did do this thing

00:42:13.361 --> 00:42:16.101
where he had this big part of an egg and he put it over his

00:42:16.101 --> 00:42:20.321
face and it was the first time where he did the whole he disappeared like how

00:42:20.321 --> 00:42:22.901
cool was that right and then when he and then all of a sudden and we're feeding

00:42:22.901 --> 00:42:26.361
into it and that's my best that's the best kind of magical thinking where he's

00:42:26.361 --> 00:42:29.041
literally like oh my gosh I just disappeared these guys can't see me they're

00:42:29.041 --> 00:42:33.021
asking where I'm net and then I pulled this eggshell away and now they now apparently

00:42:33.021 --> 00:42:34.621
have appeared that's that is.

00:42:36.201 --> 00:42:39.821
Amazing right yes yes oh so so

00:42:39.821 --> 00:42:42.641
the magical thing and what I and I really like this idea of I

00:42:42.641 --> 00:42:46.001
can identify this one in so many areas of my life though and part of it is the

00:42:46.001 --> 00:42:50.901
I'll do it later at this point in my life that is magical because will I um

00:42:50.901 --> 00:42:57.221
if I remember right I'll get to it later and then poof well and I'm glad you

00:42:57.221 --> 00:42:59.761
brought that up that's right I think even on one of the those episodes I talked

00:42:59.761 --> 00:43:02.001
about the, well, I don't need to write it down.

00:43:02.141 --> 00:43:06.001
I now realize magical thinking because then it's just a crap shoot.

00:43:06.041 --> 00:43:08.221
If I happen to remember, so that one's difficult.

00:43:08.461 --> 00:43:12.121
This one is, this one's, this one is big. We're going to have fun with this

00:43:12.121 --> 00:43:15.921
one. I call it emotional reasoning. So children believe if I feel it, it must be true.

00:43:16.741 --> 00:43:20.541
So the classic is the kid saying, stop yelling at me.

00:43:20.781 --> 00:43:25.081
You know, you're not yelling, but they feel like you are yelling at them.

00:43:25.221 --> 00:43:27.901
It is true. Now you need to stop yelling at me.

00:43:28.141 --> 00:43:32.481
And what does the parent eventually do is I will show you yelling and then they will yell.

00:43:33.343 --> 00:43:37.623
Not our finest moments as parents. Now, as an adult, I feel abandoned.

00:43:37.943 --> 00:43:41.963
Therefore you are abandoning me, but that is something I feel.

00:43:42.163 --> 00:43:46.383
And so now, and I like to slow this one down so much because if I get this in

00:43:46.383 --> 00:43:49.243
the office and I am not even saying that there's not truth in this,

00:43:49.363 --> 00:43:52.983
but I think it's a great place to start from a, okay, check it out.

00:43:53.083 --> 00:43:58.543
I feel abandoned. Now I want, I believe you are the one that is abandoning me

00:43:58.543 --> 00:44:02.083
because if you look at it that way as adults, then it's basically saying,

00:44:02.383 --> 00:44:05.863
so I need you to make me feel better about a thing that I think that you're

00:44:05.863 --> 00:44:10.403
doing, but you are not on board that you are doing it.

00:44:11.223 --> 00:44:15.603
The reality is you might not be, but I don't feel good. So I need you to make

00:44:15.603 --> 00:44:18.623
me feel better about this thing. I think you're doing that you're not sure if you are.

00:44:18.843 --> 00:44:23.563
So start dancing. And then if you got a guy who has good old nice guy syndrome,

00:44:23.863 --> 00:44:26.663
or he doesn't want to get in trouble, or he's worried that if I don't get this

00:44:26.663 --> 00:44:29.023
right, then she'll never want to have sex with me.

00:44:29.143 --> 00:44:32.103
I mean, I see that one so often. and he's like okay i'll do

00:44:32.103 --> 00:44:34.803
whatever so now we're talking his energy's off he's not being

00:44:34.803 --> 00:44:37.583
authentic and most likely he's not

00:44:37.583 --> 00:44:40.323
going to know how to make her feel better and then she gets

00:44:40.323 --> 00:44:44.203
to say okay you obviously don't care about me and deep inside she's probably

00:44:44.203 --> 00:44:48.403
internalizing the man what is wrong with me am i unlovable so that is when i

00:44:48.403 --> 00:44:53.283
see so often and that i just want to say man bless both their hearts that game's

00:44:53.283 --> 00:44:56.603
rigged from an emotional maturity standpoint that one is not So,

00:44:56.723 --> 00:44:57.823
then that doesn't go well.

00:44:57.963 --> 00:45:01.583
So, now in comes the all kind of black or white thinking, man, I did it wrong.

00:45:01.743 --> 00:45:04.423
What was the right way that I should have done that when there wasn't a right

00:45:04.423 --> 00:45:05.963
way because the whole game was rigged?

00:45:06.203 --> 00:45:10.123
Or here comes magical thinking, well, let's go into our bunkers for a few days

00:45:10.123 --> 00:45:13.803
and then poke our heads out and say, hey, are we good? Yeah, we're good.

00:45:14.103 --> 00:45:17.943
And then we get to that point where that's just the absence of bad. That isn't good.

00:45:18.323 --> 00:45:22.863
And we do that long enough. And now you've got yourself a pretty crummy marriage

00:45:22.863 --> 00:45:24.523
because you're basically got

00:45:24.523 --> 00:45:27.683
two little five-year-olds that are trying to pretend that they're adults.

00:45:31.013 --> 00:45:38.653
Yeah, this one's hard for me because a big part of healing for me involved validating

00:45:38.653 --> 00:45:45.293
what I was feeling, making sure that what was coming up for me was being validated,

00:45:45.553 --> 00:45:49.193
was being legitimized, was being seen, was being heard, all of those things.

00:45:49.193 --> 00:45:53.533
But the recognition of, I mean, yes, beautiful, paint the perfect picture.

00:45:53.713 --> 00:45:58.113
We're so emotionally mature and healed that I'm doing all of that internal validation

00:45:58.113 --> 00:46:02.013
for myself. So I never need any of the external validation from somebody else.

00:46:02.133 --> 00:46:03.693
But that's just not the case.

00:46:03.833 --> 00:46:08.673
And I think even like in a perfectly healed version, I still don't think it's the case.

00:46:08.773 --> 00:46:12.533
I think there's some healthy validation that needs to take place externally.

00:46:12.853 --> 00:46:15.613
Like we need somebody to reflect back. I agree.

00:46:16.193 --> 00:46:19.293
Yeah. And that was a big thing. go ahead.

00:46:19.873 --> 00:46:22.993
Oh, well, I feel so bad. I, I should, if we were in the therapy office,

00:46:22.993 --> 00:46:26.673
I would want you to go all through this, but I worry at times that now it's

00:46:26.673 --> 00:46:29.533
somebody listening is going to start going into the yeah, buts.

00:46:29.593 --> 00:46:33.353
And so I want to rescue them for a brief second and say what Craig is saying

00:46:33.353 --> 00:46:37.573
is so spot on because in my part two, I came back around to this one because

00:46:37.573 --> 00:46:40.713
I'd gotten some feedback from somebody that said, Hey, how can you talk about

00:46:40.713 --> 00:46:44.273
making people feel so seen as highly sensitive people or empaths?

00:46:44.333 --> 00:46:47.313
And now you're saying, Oh, it's not real. And I thought, And oh my gosh.

00:46:47.873 --> 00:46:52.273
Literally the listener, bless their heart, went to the black or white,

00:46:52.473 --> 00:46:53.313
all or nothing thinking.

00:46:53.573 --> 00:46:59.653
Because what I was saying is, oh, start from this place of, and I said, please trust your gut.

00:46:59.973 --> 00:47:03.513
Please start from a place of, I'm going to listen to me, but just be aware that

00:47:03.513 --> 00:47:07.133
now I can understand that this is how I feel, 100% how I feel.

00:47:07.313 --> 00:47:09.933
But my immature version is, so it is true.

00:47:10.133 --> 00:47:14.813
So you need to fix it. And what I've had just some beautiful experiences with

00:47:14.813 --> 00:47:17.633
in the couple's field with this now is,

00:47:17.793 --> 00:47:20.833
and I've got one right now that's going to sound so simple and it is so beautiful,

00:47:20.833 --> 00:47:23.993
but a couple where the wife was saying something similar, I feel this way,

00:47:24.113 --> 00:47:25.573
therefore, I think you are doing it.

00:47:25.733 --> 00:47:30.273
We identified this version of immaturity. So then I was able to say,

00:47:30.353 --> 00:47:36.213
okay, so what would you need actually right now in order to feel like he cares in this scenario?

00:47:36.473 --> 00:47:41.253
And what I have found, the number one answer is she says, oh, I don't actually know.

00:47:41.693 --> 00:47:47.373
I just want him to make me feel better. And this was good because I've worked

00:47:47.373 --> 00:47:50.493
with this couple for quite a while. So then he didn't say, well, what am I supposed to do?

00:47:50.693 --> 00:47:54.853
Then he said, okay, I actually feel a little more validation here as well,

00:47:54.853 --> 00:48:00.053
because I've tried to just do things that I think might work.

00:48:00.233 --> 00:48:03.833
And then when they don't, I beat myself up. I can notice you pull away.

00:48:04.253 --> 00:48:08.513
So what is so cool about that is now I'm normalizing that, okay,

00:48:08.613 --> 00:48:12.793
this is beautiful. So, yeah, you don't know because their immature version of

00:48:12.793 --> 00:48:16.353
me just said, I don't know, just make it make me feel better. Parent, mom, dad.

00:48:16.813 --> 00:48:19.753
And so now we get to say, well, we can now just start.

00:48:20.461 --> 00:48:23.821
I mean, I don't want to say throwing noodles at the wall, but let's start somewhere now.

00:48:24.041 --> 00:48:27.041
And so they started with a simple, how about for the next week,

00:48:27.181 --> 00:48:32.621
just before you go to work, just come tell me that you're leaving and you love

00:48:32.621 --> 00:48:33.741
me and you're going to miss me.

00:48:34.021 --> 00:48:36.821
And he just said, oh, I can do that. So they did it. And again,

00:48:36.981 --> 00:48:41.021
what I love about this, it was a similar version of the tax conversation I was having earlier.

00:48:42.101 --> 00:48:45.061
They came back in, it was probably a couple of weeks later. And I said, how'd it go?

00:48:45.201 --> 00:48:51.121
And then they both said, it was okay, but it wasn't the, oh my gosh, Now we're so connected.

00:48:51.321 --> 00:48:56.021
And what is so good about that is they didn't even know what they needed.

00:48:56.141 --> 00:48:59.781
They didn't even know that she didn't even know that this was me kind of throwing

00:48:59.781 --> 00:49:01.141
an impossible task at him.

00:49:01.501 --> 00:49:05.381
And he didn't really, well, he felt like he understood that,

00:49:05.521 --> 00:49:06.901
oh, I can never get this right.

00:49:07.521 --> 00:49:10.521
And now they said, okay, now we're working on this together.

00:49:10.801 --> 00:49:14.541
Now we can try. And she had to have the courage to say, yeah,

00:49:14.541 --> 00:49:15.341
actually, that's not it.

00:49:15.641 --> 00:49:19.621
But thank you so much for showing up that way. And he had to have the courage also to say,

00:49:20.101 --> 00:49:23.781
okay, this, yeah, it isn't what I thought it would be because this gets into

00:49:23.781 --> 00:49:27.961
the immaturity of I'll be happy when, you know, if only in my relationship,

00:49:27.961 --> 00:49:32.061
he told me I love you and kissed me before he left every day, I bet you I'd be happy.

00:49:32.541 --> 00:49:35.821
And so then she can now think, well, we never got to that point.

00:49:35.941 --> 00:49:40.221
Well, now we did it. But you see now where they start growing together in an

00:49:40.221 --> 00:49:43.041
emotionally mature way where they realized, oh, maybe that wasn't it.

00:49:43.121 --> 00:49:46.601
But it wasn't like, okay, now what are we going to do? Now it's what's next. Let's figure this out.

00:49:47.036 --> 00:49:50.236
Tony, it's so fun. Go ahead. It's so fun talking to you because I'm like,

00:49:50.356 --> 00:49:51.676
baby, we're doing so good.

00:49:53.356 --> 00:49:56.516
It's just, it's also like the going back before, because there will be happy

00:49:56.516 --> 00:49:58.836
when is like, absolutely.

00:49:59.156 --> 00:50:03.156
Cause that was so much there, but to bring it back just a little bit and how

00:50:03.156 --> 00:50:04.596
important that is and realizing,

00:50:04.756 --> 00:50:08.376
oh, I don't even know because when we're going through a space and you had a

00:50:08.376 --> 00:50:14.956
childhood or however it happened where your needs were so invalidated and you

00:50:14.956 --> 00:50:16.256
weren't allowed to have needs.

00:50:16.436 --> 00:50:22.336
So you learned how to shut them off so significantly that when the smoke clears

00:50:22.336 --> 00:50:26.256
and you can like, oh, okay, what do I need? You literally have no idea.

00:50:26.536 --> 00:50:31.456
And so to get to that, where you start flexing that muscle and start practicing, it's almost exciting.

00:50:31.636 --> 00:50:36.996
It's like, I need a drink of water right now just to know what you actually need.

00:50:36.996 --> 00:50:42.636
And it's for you as opposed to, I need to know what I need to be so that you

00:50:42.636 --> 00:50:47.436
still love me, so that I'm safe, so that I'm still chosen, so that I'm not hurt,

00:50:47.696 --> 00:50:51.796
so that you don't abandon or abuse, like all of the ways that it can come up

00:50:51.796 --> 00:50:57.016
in that space to where your needs turn into what you can do for the other person

00:50:57.016 --> 00:50:58.516
as opposed to what you need.

00:50:58.756 --> 00:51:02.816
So that is such a crucial point to get somebody flexing that muscle of what

00:51:02.816 --> 00:51:06.496
do I actually need for me? What is that healthy space?

00:51:06.736 --> 00:51:09.536
I love that you can get them to that point. That's

00:51:09.536 --> 00:51:12.296
such an exciting space and I feel like such a

00:51:12.296 --> 00:51:15.016
close connection with that one especially and I

00:51:15.016 --> 00:51:18.816
feel like you might as well just because there was like my need I had no idea

00:51:18.816 --> 00:51:23.436
yeah I had no idea like taking care of your own needs as a child growing up

00:51:23.436 --> 00:51:27.696
all of your needs right physical emotional like even like coming home from school

00:51:27.696 --> 00:51:30.336
and nobody's home and you got to take care of what you're eating and all these

00:51:30.336 --> 00:51:32.656
kind of things yeah and then yeah

00:51:32.876 --> 00:51:36.396
Somebody asks you, especially when you get into the deeper space of like,

00:51:36.516 --> 00:51:40.276
when emotions start coming into play and learning how to regulate your nervous

00:51:40.276 --> 00:51:42.156
system. And it's like, well, what do I need?

00:51:42.356 --> 00:51:46.376
What do I need that's going to serve me and be healthy for me rather than all

00:51:46.376 --> 00:51:51.716
of these crappy coping mechanisms that I've used to satiate and satisfy and

00:51:51.716 --> 00:51:53.616
soothe myself? And it's like, well, I don't need those.

00:51:54.056 --> 00:51:57.676
I don't know what I actually do need. It's been an interesting thing that we've had to learn.

00:51:58.136 --> 00:52:00.716
And I love that you're bringing it up and highlighting it again.

00:52:00.716 --> 00:52:04.976
And I'm just like, cause you're, you're putting words to some of the things that I think we've done,

00:52:05.176 --> 00:52:10.416
not just subconsciously, but like in this ramshackle way of just trying to figure

00:52:10.416 --> 00:52:14.056
out how to do this thing together, trying to heal together. Do you know what I mean?

00:52:14.396 --> 00:52:17.256
Yeah. Well, what I like that you're saying that is, is it further,

00:52:17.416 --> 00:52:19.456
I think validates that it is here.

00:52:19.536 --> 00:52:21.556
I'm going to go all or nothing black or white. It is the right thing to do,

00:52:21.576 --> 00:52:23.876
but you start to see, and I love this concept.

00:52:23.876 --> 00:52:27.376
If somebody is spiritual, if they're religious, if, if you've got all roads

00:52:27.376 --> 00:52:32.596
lead to God or the universe or the great magnet or the creator or the all through

00:52:32.596 --> 00:52:35.396
life, all areas of psychology, discipline,

00:52:35.796 --> 00:52:41.376
meditation, yoga, we're all trying to figure out how to evolve or how to become our best selves.

00:52:41.816 --> 00:52:46.196
And you start seeing similarities in all the different teachings in different ways.

00:52:46.436 --> 00:52:48.836
And then there are people that are finding that, like you say,

00:52:48.956 --> 00:52:50.956
this ramshackle way on their own.

00:52:50.996 --> 00:52:54.536
And I just love this concept of when you start to see similar things,

00:52:54.756 --> 00:52:57.996
similar patterns in different disciplines then i

00:52:57.996 --> 00:53:01.076
think oh i think we're on to something i think this is part of that whole whatever

00:53:01.076 --> 00:53:04.056
collective consciousness or the all or we're gonna figure

00:53:04.056 --> 00:53:07.076
this stuff out and because i look at where we're at with emotions

00:53:07.076 --> 00:53:10.056
now and here we are some older people

00:53:10.056 --> 00:53:13.196
talking about we're figuring out our emotions now and i have

00:53:13.196 --> 00:53:17.196
to accept the fact that and i'm a therapist 20 years of this and i'm now understanding

00:53:17.196 --> 00:53:22.596
all emotions i got okay i got it and and teaching my kids now in my mind i think

00:53:22.596 --> 00:53:26.776
we're probably a couple generations still away from where it is It's just our

00:53:26.776 --> 00:53:30.656
emotions are welcome as a child because it's going to take work.

00:53:31.116 --> 00:53:34.596
Rather than intellectualizing everything and trying to think about everything,

00:53:34.856 --> 00:53:38.676
just the opportunity to express and feel and be in emotion.

00:53:38.876 --> 00:53:44.956
Yeah, and that's why I really am a book project about the emotional immaturity epidemic.

00:53:44.956 --> 00:53:49.636
And I think where the unfortunate part is, is you can see emotional immaturity

00:53:49.636 --> 00:53:54.096
and maybe currently the political climate or you see it, it does cause people

00:53:54.096 --> 00:53:57.256
to rise in the ranks in in some industries.

00:53:57.276 --> 00:54:02.256
And so the unfortunate part is I do think and maybe we can look at polarity

00:54:02.256 --> 00:54:04.396
here where we can see the extreme emotional immaturity.

00:54:04.636 --> 00:54:08.696
And that can also be our muse or mirror to help us understand that.

00:54:08.996 --> 00:54:13.796
And I think being able to see this is it helps me reflect better and be a better

00:54:13.796 --> 00:54:19.096
version of myself. But I hope that then being able to put words and examples

00:54:19.096 --> 00:54:22.976
and meaning to this, you can start to see, oh, that's just a little kid in a suit.

00:54:23.658 --> 00:54:28.718
That's needs control. And there, and then, and it actually, the next two that

00:54:28.718 --> 00:54:31.818
we're going to talk about external validation, dependence, and difficulty with accountability.

00:54:32.598 --> 00:54:34.818
Now, those are two, we're talking about this all or nothing,

00:54:34.958 --> 00:54:35.578
black or white thinking.

00:54:35.978 --> 00:54:40.098
And that one, if you have a different opinion than me, then you must think yours

00:54:40.098 --> 00:54:43.578
is right. And mine is wrong. I mean, that's at the core of so much of this.

00:54:43.798 --> 00:54:46.238
And now if you turn into that external validation dependence,

00:54:46.438 --> 00:54:48.278
kids need constant reassurance from their caregivers.

00:54:48.738 --> 00:54:53.578
So in adults, then it leads to excessive approval seeking, and then in difficulty

00:54:53.578 --> 00:54:57.158
maintaining any kind of worth without others telling you you're of worth.

00:54:57.618 --> 00:55:00.638
So if you already have this all or nothing black or white thinking,

00:55:00.898 --> 00:55:05.458
and then you need someone to tell you you're okay, and now we get into difficulty

00:55:05.458 --> 00:55:08.998
with accountability, kids instinctively protect themselves by denying responsibility.

00:55:09.258 --> 00:55:12.098
In adults, it manifests as blame shifting, gaslighting, defensiveness,

00:55:12.358 --> 00:55:16.358
and just an inability to offer apology, to take ownership of anything.

00:55:16.518 --> 00:55:20.098
So you start putting a big old combo pack of this together, And you can see

00:55:20.098 --> 00:55:24.478
where the more emotionally immature someone is, the more control that they can

00:55:24.478 --> 00:55:25.858
actually have in certain situations.

00:55:26.178 --> 00:55:30.578
And why when somebody then tries to push back against that person,

00:55:30.778 --> 00:55:34.898
then it just flares up even more with the immature because it's now you really

00:55:34.898 --> 00:55:39.498
think I'm wrong because you think you're right versus what if we just were both

00:55:39.498 --> 00:55:41.698
allowed to have our own thoughts and opinions?

00:55:41.998 --> 00:55:45.858
And then we could approach this with no one's let's say nobody's wrong currently.

00:55:45.858 --> 00:55:48.898
It just is and let's have

00:55:48.898 --> 00:55:51.718
a conversation about it and you can see maybe where there's just

00:55:51.718 --> 00:55:54.538
so many layers that are that are in the way with

00:55:54.538 --> 00:56:00.178
extreme emotional immaturity especially in adults who have power money status

00:56:00.178 --> 00:56:05.498
it's so difficult it makes me think about the like the content that we were

00:56:05.498 --> 00:56:08.238
talking at the beginning the one that that we were yeah i don't need to explain

00:56:08.238 --> 00:56:12.418
you know the piece of content that we were talking about the woman flipping cars right Yeah.

00:56:12.918 --> 00:56:18.518
Yeah. It's such a good example of like, everybody is in there arguing their point, me included.

00:56:18.778 --> 00:56:21.578
Like I'm in there as well, trying to be like, no, look at it this way.

00:56:21.618 --> 00:56:22.838
You're not seeing this part.

00:56:23.178 --> 00:56:27.158
I'm right. You're wrong. And they're like, no, I'm right. And you're wrong.

00:56:27.278 --> 00:56:31.238
And it's just this echo chamber back and forth of people essentially saying,

00:56:31.298 --> 00:56:35.798
and I think that that is like a really good example of what's taking place on

00:56:35.798 --> 00:56:38.438
a really big scale, right? Everybody thinks that they're right.

00:56:38.678 --> 00:56:41.898
And if I'm right, then that means that somebody else has to be wrong,

00:56:42.078 --> 00:56:46.138
as opposed to just existing in the space where that was a really big thing that

00:56:46.138 --> 00:56:47.458
we had to come to terms with,

00:56:47.698 --> 00:56:51.338
not just like internally within our relationship back and forth with each other,

00:56:51.478 --> 00:56:55.738
where we really saw it play out and we're still seeing it play out because it's

00:56:55.738 --> 00:56:58.818
a hard space for us, is when it comes to parenting,

00:56:59.338 --> 00:57:03.698
where there's definitely a parent that's right and there's definitely a parent that's wrong.

00:57:04.278 --> 00:57:07.518
And we both want to be on the side of the parent that's right.

00:57:07.518 --> 00:57:11.678
And we see our actions so clearly from that lens, which then we take the defensive

00:57:11.678 --> 00:57:14.718
point of view, which means, wait, if I'm right, then you must be wrong.

00:57:15.138 --> 00:57:16.058
Right. And that's our default.

00:57:16.897 --> 00:57:20.457
Yeah. And I think that's really programmable from childhood. I want to pause.

00:57:21.077 --> 00:57:24.537
I totally want to pause. I wanted some help on this one. It's one of the things

00:57:24.537 --> 00:57:29.217
that like came up with that and it's shifted as at first, just if you can help

00:57:29.217 --> 00:57:30.717
me unpack this one a little bit.

00:57:31.257 --> 00:57:34.737
And when you had the parent, one parent is right. One parent is wrong.

00:57:35.057 --> 00:57:39.777
When we got together, I wasn't thinking I was right. And you were wrong.

00:57:39.977 --> 00:57:43.117
I was thinking Craig was right. And I was wrong.

00:57:44.637 --> 00:57:50.057
Okay. Okay. Your way. Okay. Your way. And now Now I got to the point where I'm like, I was right.

00:57:50.237 --> 00:57:53.977
And so it's that thing of I went for the complete flip for a while.

00:57:54.117 --> 00:57:56.097
I'm like, no, I'm right. And you're wrong.

00:57:56.297 --> 00:58:00.377
And now we're working on the I'm right from my point of view.

00:58:00.697 --> 00:58:05.937
Yes. Not that I'm like the correct way, but what I'm feeling and what my and you are also.

00:58:06.557 --> 00:58:12.257
And it was the realization of like you said, like we're both coming from a space of love.

00:58:12.597 --> 00:58:15.777
But I just I want to speak to that part because there was so much invalidation

00:58:15.777 --> 00:58:19.277
of myself. And I didn't trust myself or my instincts or everything.

00:58:19.437 --> 00:58:23.297
I just thought whatever Craig said was the right way to do it, which also puts,

00:58:24.180 --> 00:58:29.420
fuck ton of pressure. It's much easier, much easier, babe. There's no pressure to get it right.

00:58:29.720 --> 00:58:34.440
And when you don't get it right, you know, it was like, well, what are you doing?

00:58:34.560 --> 00:58:36.640
You were supposed to get it right. You're the one that knows.

00:58:36.940 --> 00:58:38.560
So like, what is like, yeah.

00:58:39.560 --> 00:58:44.020
Okay. Such a good question and such good awareness there. And I will,

00:58:44.140 --> 00:58:45.940
shockingly, I will tangent a tiny bit.

00:58:46.240 --> 00:58:50.520
So now let's step into the, I hope a lot of people navigate a faith journey.

00:58:51.020 --> 00:58:55.120
Formerly known as faith crisis, also known as faith deconstruction, faith transition.

00:58:55.460 --> 00:58:58.780
And a lot of that comes from maybe we'll call it higher demand religion.

00:58:59.080 --> 00:59:02.240
So when those typically start with, there is a right way.

00:59:02.620 --> 00:59:05.960
So what does that insinuate? That everything else is the wrong way.

00:59:06.220 --> 00:59:09.880
The wrong way. And so then when you have a thought that doesn't go align,

00:59:10.080 --> 00:59:14.560
isn't aligned with the right way, then you are wrong, but you think it.

00:59:14.680 --> 00:59:18.560
So now I am bad because I think this thing that's not the right thing.

00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:22.900
So now let's introduce the concept of duality in adult human beings.

00:59:23.060 --> 00:59:27.540
I want to watch R-rated movies. I want to do things on a Sunday.

00:59:27.680 --> 00:59:30.820
I want to experiment with libations.

00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:32.980
Now we know that those are wrong.

00:59:33.460 --> 00:59:37.960
So I am bad, but I want to do them. So I'm going to do them. So I must hide them.

00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:43.300
And so then now all of a sudden I need to overcompensate because I want the

00:59:43.300 --> 00:59:47.120
external validation. I need people to think I'm good because I know I'm bad.

00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:50.140
So if I do these performative things, then I'll get the validation.

00:59:50.340 --> 00:59:55.520
And then I will know I must not be that bad because I'm getting the validation. So I'm good.

00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:59.460
Now enter your kids. Now your kids come in and now we understand.

00:59:59.700 --> 01:00:02.360
And this one breaks my heart because my kids are just being kids,

01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:05.560
but I want them to do it the right way because that'll make me look better.

01:00:05.600 --> 01:00:08.440
And it will also cover up the things that I'm doing that are bad.

01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:12.760
And so then as my, so I need to make sure my kids are doing the right thing

01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.520
well they want validation that kid gets their whole sense of self from external

01:00:15.520 --> 01:00:20.380
validation so they are also wanting to listen to certain music or wear certain

01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:22.200
clothing or whatever but they know it's bad.

01:00:22.938 --> 01:00:27.378
So they're bad and they want to do the right thing. And so you've got both adult

01:00:27.378 --> 01:00:30.838
and kid are neither one developing their own sense of self.

01:00:31.378 --> 01:00:36.058
And so what that so you can already we could talk about what that looks like.

01:00:36.198 --> 01:00:40.618
But I think what's so difficult there, too, is what it teaches over time is

01:00:40.618 --> 01:00:46.398
I also can get can shed my accountability because I'm trying to do the right thing.

01:00:46.638 --> 01:00:49.398
And if that person says that I'm doing now, enter in magical thinking.

01:00:49.398 --> 01:00:54.058
And this is where I think that I'll go with God, the universe, the creator there.

01:00:54.218 --> 01:00:56.638
I think they're going to be on board with me on this one, where if all of a

01:00:56.638 --> 01:01:00.358
sudden I'm saying, man, you know, I, why didn't I get that job?

01:01:00.358 --> 01:01:02.898
Or why did my, this person get angry with me?

01:01:03.338 --> 01:01:05.378
Cause I don't want to take ownership. I didn't do anything wrong.

01:01:05.558 --> 01:01:09.498
And so then it's like, man, God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why are you punishing me now?

01:01:09.818 --> 01:01:12.618
And I think God's up there going, Hey, that's not on me.

01:01:12.778 --> 01:01:16.118
Like I'm, you're good. And, you know, and in the spiritual realm,

01:01:16.218 --> 01:01:19.118
and then when I speak on this stuff, I talk about whether it's literal or figurative,

01:01:19.338 --> 01:01:22.918
if you look at the concept of differentiation, I'm going to say that the idea

01:01:22.918 --> 01:01:25.618
of God, the parent, again, the creator, the universe.

01:01:26.198 --> 01:01:31.378
Is got to be the most differentiated entity known to humankind because they're good.

01:01:31.538 --> 01:01:35.818
So then they are not getting enmeshed with, if I do my own thing,

01:01:36.238 --> 01:01:38.378
then they don't view them as a bad parent.

01:01:38.498 --> 01:01:41.658
And that's where if you look, I love this concept, whether in whatever spiritual

01:01:41.658 --> 01:01:45.838
realm you're looking at, where if the God you believe in is the same yesterday,

01:01:46.038 --> 01:01:49.098
today, and tomorrow, and their love is unconditional in the story.

01:01:49.418 --> 01:01:51.678
So now if I think they're mad at me, that's a me thing.

01:01:52.018 --> 01:01:55.478
They're up there going like, you're good. So even in, I was thinking about this

01:01:55.478 --> 01:01:58.138
recently in the concept in the Christian realm of repentance.

01:01:58.478 --> 01:02:02.998
I like the version of that that means turn to. So if I'm turning to a dad that's, you're good.

01:02:03.610 --> 01:02:06.550
And their love is unconditional it was the same yesterday today and

01:02:06.550 --> 01:02:09.390
tomorrow then it turns out i'm good i'm not

01:02:09.390 --> 01:02:12.530
doing it wrong and then i am beating myself up

01:02:12.530 --> 01:02:17.410
and then i'm turning to this secure attachment with the divine the divine that

01:02:17.410 --> 01:02:21.370
is always and i'll go all or nothing you're going to say you're good because

01:02:21.370 --> 01:02:24.710
what if that inherent goodness is within us and it turns out that our job is

01:02:24.710 --> 01:02:28.470
to just go through life and then unlock and unpack that because then we won't

01:02:28.470 --> 01:02:29.950
need people to tell us we're okay.

01:02:30.310 --> 01:02:34.010
We are okay. And anyway, that went a place I didn't think it would go.

01:02:35.330 --> 01:02:38.390
But anyway, I just love that concept so much. So to get back stuff at the,

01:02:38.570 --> 01:02:42.250
so now I think that I look at that as I call it in this document or in the podcast,

01:02:42.370 --> 01:02:46.050
poor emotional boundaries, because kids naturally merge their identity with their caregiver.

01:02:46.250 --> 01:02:49.750
So in the relationships, it manifests as taking responsibility for others' emotions

01:02:49.750 --> 01:02:52.290
or handing our emotions over to somebody else.

01:02:52.470 --> 01:02:56.190
And this one is so wild to me now because I have recognized,

01:02:56.490 --> 01:03:00.470
and this is one of those where you start sounding kind of like a jerk when you step away from it.

01:03:00.770 --> 01:03:03.630
But okay, how many times have we said things like, yeah, I didn't want to say

01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:06.630
this thing because I didn't want that person to feel bad. Or I didn't do this

01:03:06.630 --> 01:03:08.750
because I didn't want them to think that I was a certain way.

01:03:09.010 --> 01:03:12.750
So what I'm actually doing is I'm taking responsibility for their emotions.

01:03:12.910 --> 01:03:16.050
I have merged, you know, I have these poor emotional boundaries and I've merged

01:03:16.050 --> 01:03:17.910
my sense of self into someone else's.

01:03:18.250 --> 01:03:21.610
But there's a couple of things happening. One, I kind of, this is why I went on that one tangent.

01:03:22.070 --> 01:03:25.470
I actually then don't have to take ownership or accountability for my own emotions

01:03:25.470 --> 01:03:30.170
or my own life for that matter and also i'm not even letting that person have

01:03:30.170 --> 01:03:34.110
their own emotional experience so if i don't want my kid to feel bad so therefore

01:03:34.110 --> 01:03:35.570
i'm going to pay for all their things,

01:03:36.469 --> 01:03:41.609
They may become the world's greatest payer of things. They may be a financial

01:03:41.609 --> 01:03:43.589
wizard, but I am limiting that.

01:03:43.769 --> 01:03:48.249
I'm enabling the potentially negative behavior because I don't want to feel

01:03:48.249 --> 01:03:52.869
bad and I don't want them to think that I don't care. I will rest my case.

01:03:55.209 --> 01:04:01.249
Yeah. Building a lot of resentments, hindering and avoiding accountability.

01:04:02.009 --> 01:04:04.889
Yeah. Yeah. And then so when you're like, oh, he is right.

01:04:04.889 --> 01:04:08.929
I worry sometimes that that is the and I probably need to come up with better

01:04:08.929 --> 01:04:13.009
positive words and poor emotional boundaries, but challenging emotional boundaries,

01:04:13.009 --> 01:04:17.069
because that's one that I think that we learned to fold into other people,

01:04:17.069 --> 01:04:19.189
because if I think that I'm probably wrong,

01:04:19.349 --> 01:04:22.069
and that's why I was going back to this, there is a right way and a wrong way.

01:04:22.069 --> 01:04:26.529
If I'm used to thinking my own way, but I know it's wrong, then I'm going to

01:04:26.529 --> 01:04:31.369
default to the way that the person that seems more confident or whatever that looks like thinks.

01:04:32.269 --> 01:04:35.189
And I shift that. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm going to do it again.

01:04:35.529 --> 01:04:37.889
Like I've shifted. I've caught that now. And I have a practice.

01:04:38.049 --> 01:04:42.409
You've talked about the pause is when I'm feeling a really strong emotional charge.

01:04:42.569 --> 01:04:45.149
And this is like something and we talk about it.

01:04:45.569 --> 01:04:50.069
It's not always like, hey, let's sit down and talk. We debate about it. We argue about it.

01:04:50.189 --> 01:04:56.229
And then we get to that point. when I start to feel like he is right in this

01:04:56.229 --> 01:04:59.169
space, like sometimes he feels like I'm, or we come to this space,

01:04:59.329 --> 01:05:01.049
this middle ground where neither is right or wrong.

01:05:01.209 --> 01:05:05.029
We just understand where the other person was coming from and we see that.

01:05:05.369 --> 01:05:08.309
But if I start to feel that, then I check myself.

01:05:08.829 --> 01:05:12.869
And I'm like, even if you're right, I need to regulate, even if you're right.

01:05:13.089 --> 01:05:15.789
Because I can't go to that. That's what I used to do.

01:05:15.909 --> 01:05:22.449
So I'll have to get to my own space and be calm and then find that. is it's okay to be wrong.

01:05:22.469 --> 01:05:27.389
I'm fine with, but I'm very cautious about jumping to making myself wrong now. Yeah.

01:05:27.669 --> 01:05:30.169
And so I give myself the time to make sure, okay.

01:05:30.717 --> 01:05:35.057
I'm not, I'm not gaslighting myself and invalidating.

01:05:35.297 --> 01:05:39.977
Yeah. There's, it's such a interesting dance learning how to do all this.

01:05:40.197 --> 01:05:42.917
And I would love your, I would love your guys. I trust you.

01:05:43.057 --> 01:05:46.697
You're yeah, but I really currently, and I also, I think that life has this

01:05:46.697 --> 01:05:51.597
whole pendulum effect. So I go from overly kind and nice guy to then it's almost

01:05:51.597 --> 01:05:53.897
like you have to go all the way over here to, Oh, I don't care.

01:05:54.237 --> 01:05:57.577
The kind of like a jerk, then you're going to find the middle ground of calm confidence.

01:05:57.797 --> 01:06:00.697
And I think that is happening in most everything. so many

01:06:00.697 --> 01:06:03.957
things so i am currently in this place of oh even

01:06:03.957 --> 01:06:06.957
when somebody says and it's okay i realized i was wrong i don't

01:06:06.957 --> 01:06:10.417
i personally still don't i don't want that energy

01:06:10.417 --> 01:06:13.077
or it's just it just oh that was where i was at or

01:06:13.077 --> 01:06:17.017
that was the way that i viewed things and now i'm able to take a different view

01:06:17.017 --> 01:06:20.777
or a different approach because i think that that right the wrong the word wrong

01:06:20.777 --> 01:06:25.677
still implies that something is wrong with me or i was doing it the wrong way

01:06:25.677 --> 01:06:29.117
but this is where i go back to the acceptance and commitment therapy stuff where

01:06:29.117 --> 01:06:32.157
I am the only me ever that has walked the face of the earth.

01:06:32.317 --> 01:06:36.337
And the amount of variables that go into every single moment as me is mind blowing.

01:06:36.517 --> 01:06:39.537
Nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams.

01:06:40.077 --> 01:06:42.157
You've got to go to the bathroom before a podcast starts, you name it.

01:06:42.297 --> 01:06:43.957
All that stuff is at play, hypothetically.

01:06:44.337 --> 01:06:47.937
And so that's what makes me me. And that's what makes me feel the way I do and think the way I do.

01:06:48.157 --> 01:06:51.817
So I'm still, I'm of the mindset that I will stay on this pendulum swing of,

01:06:51.937 --> 01:06:53.597
so it isn't wrong. It just is.

01:06:53.937 --> 01:06:56.697
But this is where I've been talking lately. When I go back this

01:06:56.697 --> 01:06:59.497
concept of different differentiation is my job in life is to

01:06:59.497 --> 01:07:02.457
interact with other humans to learn about myself i can maintain connection

01:07:02.457 --> 01:07:06.297
i'm going to learn about my autonomy is i want people to go from i don't know

01:07:06.297 --> 01:07:10.917
what if they started from like a 30 solid 70 flexible sense of self where i

01:07:10.917 --> 01:07:14.257
need everybody to tell me what to do where now i want i want to i've been telling

01:07:14.257 --> 01:07:19.977
my clients lately i want this formula to be more like 90 solid 10 flexible self so i'm good.

01:07:20.499 --> 01:07:23.299
I'm good but at 10 i'm gonna leave 10 open because i

01:07:23.299 --> 01:07:26.219
want to be the best me i want to be able to self-confront so then

01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:28.859
when somebody's saying i think this then i'm like going to

01:07:28.859 --> 01:07:31.699
start from a place of i'm good because i am me

01:07:31.699 --> 01:07:34.699
and this is the way i think and feel and it's the first time it's me literally

01:07:34.699 --> 01:07:37.379
right now so it just is i'm not broken i am a

01:07:37.379 --> 01:07:40.459
human being and so then but i'm leaving 10 open to

01:07:40.459 --> 01:07:43.199
then say that is a very good point so i'm going to take

01:07:43.199 --> 01:07:46.299
that data and i'm going to i'm going to take a look at that because i'm

01:07:46.299 --> 01:07:49.659
going to and there's a potential i may integrate what your view is

01:07:49.659 --> 01:07:53.019
or and that's where that takes some maturity because I

01:07:53.019 --> 01:07:56.539
think it has to come from a place that there isn't a right or wrong but

01:07:56.539 --> 01:08:00.999
I want to know you and I want you to know me and then through that interaction

01:08:00.999 --> 01:08:07.679
I may learn that I am even more solid with my thought on this or I might integrate

01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:12.119
some of your thoughts on there and then I am so grateful for our shared experience

01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:13.919
and now I want to find more.

01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:18.379
I would argue that this, like what we're talking about right now,

01:08:18.519 --> 01:08:22.739
this is the thing that was in some ways one of the hardest things that we had

01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:27.199
to learn how to do in our relationship, but it also came with the biggest benefit,

01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:32.459
like being able to just take right and wrong off the table and no longer look at it from that lens.

01:08:32.619 --> 01:08:35.659
And now it's just looking at it from the lens and the perspective of like,

01:08:35.699 --> 01:08:37.479
I want to hear what you are feeling.

01:08:37.699 --> 01:08:41.959
I want to hear what you're experiencing. I want to see the world through your eyes.

01:08:42.539 --> 01:08:47.439
So that I have a better understanding of who you are. And that has nothing to

01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:51.299
do with a decision-making process of who's going to make the right decision

01:08:51.299 --> 01:08:52.859
here, who's going to make the wrong decision.

01:08:53.219 --> 01:08:56.359
It's more of just, I want to know how you tick. I want to know how you work.

01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:58.279
I want to know how you feel. I want to know how you think.

01:08:58.599 --> 01:09:02.479
I really want to learn about you. And that has been like...

01:09:03.152 --> 01:09:05.992
As we're sitting here talking about it and i've been thinking about it i'm like

01:09:05.992 --> 01:09:09.212
it was one of the hardest things for us to do and i

01:09:09.212 --> 01:09:12.012
think it just gave us the biggest like it helped our

01:09:12.012 --> 01:09:15.472
relationship so much it brought us closer together it

01:09:15.472 --> 01:09:19.672
really cultivated and created the bond that we really have today because we

01:09:19.672 --> 01:09:23.812
got rid of that idea that like my way or the highway do you know what i mean

01:09:23.812 --> 01:09:28.552
it's like i honestly i don't know what i'm doing over here 90 of the time and

01:09:28.552 --> 01:09:31.932
you know so yeah i think that it's really been a huge deal for us.

01:09:32.092 --> 01:09:33.972
I'm glad that we're talking about it. I'm really grateful.

01:09:35.332 --> 01:09:39.432
And it sounds, and that is, and that's real intimacy, the courage to know somebody

01:09:39.432 --> 01:09:40.532
and the courage to be known.

01:09:40.652 --> 01:09:43.952
I think we talked about that the first time I came on here and what I love about it.

01:09:44.072 --> 01:09:48.072
And I'm writing a lot now about an upcoming episode on curiosity and genuine

01:09:48.072 --> 01:09:51.992
curiosity, because already I think people don't have enough curiosity.

01:09:52.192 --> 01:09:54.752
And then when they do start to be curious, it's basically this,

01:09:54.832 --> 01:09:56.292
Hey, why are you being so dumb?

01:09:56.572 --> 01:09:59.992
Well, it is a question. Technically I'm being curious, but it needs to be,

01:10:00.112 --> 01:10:02.132
tell me about you, help me understand.

01:10:02.552 --> 01:10:07.792
I want to know more, but it can't be with this little subtle part of you that

01:10:07.792 --> 01:10:10.092
is ready to then, okay, see, that's where you're wrong.

01:10:10.192 --> 01:10:14.112
Or, but I don't think that's the right way to do it because then now I'm not

01:10:14.112 --> 01:10:17.992
going to feel safe opening up to that person anymore, unless I become the most

01:10:17.992 --> 01:10:21.792
differentiated human, which is possible because then when they're saying,

01:10:21.952 --> 01:10:24.752
well, I think you're wrong, then I'm like, check in. I'm good.

01:10:24.992 --> 01:10:27.712
And then I can say, well, tell me more about why you think I'm wrong.

01:10:27.852 --> 01:10:29.512
Because I'm good, but I do want to understand.

01:10:29.972 --> 01:10:34.792
But you'll typically find that if you are in that position, that person is not

01:10:34.792 --> 01:10:37.312
saying, oh, well, let me do some self-confrontation.

01:10:37.432 --> 01:10:39.672
No, because they're doing this poor emotional boundaries.

01:10:39.852 --> 01:10:42.472
They're saying, but I need you to know you're wrong because then that will help

01:10:42.472 --> 01:10:45.392
me feel better. That means I'm right. We go right back to the black or white

01:10:45.392 --> 01:10:46.512
thinking, the all or nothing.

01:10:47.212 --> 01:10:50.732
These are so good, Tony. Yeah, these are so, so good. Tell me more.

01:10:50.872 --> 01:10:53.772
That was our gateway, I feel, way back when.

01:10:53.992 --> 01:10:56.752
Because you didn't have to be emotionally right you didn't have to like have

01:10:56.752 --> 01:11:00.392
all these things it was just you would say that I would say that it was thick

01:11:00.392 --> 01:11:04.472
of sometimes like even tell me more internally you're having all of those parts

01:11:04.472 --> 01:11:06.792
that's like fuck this I don't know what she said.

01:11:09.372 --> 01:11:10.432
Externally I'm just like,

01:11:11.101 --> 01:11:15.241
Tell me more. I'm just doing my best to hear you and listen more and more and more.

01:11:15.541 --> 01:11:20.241
So good. Well, and I think that'll lead into, and I had a, in this document

01:11:20.241 --> 01:11:24.041
I can share, I had the, well, this next one I'll do, that was all the ones I covered.

01:11:24.161 --> 01:11:27.301
And then in the next episode, I covered several more, but I think these are

01:11:27.301 --> 01:11:29.941
the basis of so much of our immaturity, the way that we show up.

01:11:30.061 --> 01:11:32.301
But this one I think is so fascinating. It's mind reading.

01:11:32.581 --> 01:11:35.221
I mean, it is children assume others see the world exactly as they do.

01:11:35.401 --> 01:11:38.921
So then adults pattern this by assuming our partner's intentions.

01:11:39.261 --> 01:11:42.701
And that's, I see that so often. Well, obviously, this is what you meant.

01:11:42.981 --> 01:11:47.161
Well, of course, everybody knows this. And what is so interesting there is it

01:11:47.161 --> 01:11:50.901
goes back into, I, and this is when I talk about my four pillars,

01:11:50.921 --> 01:11:53.741
I've got a pre-pillar, which is from Marshall Rosenberg's book,

01:11:53.881 --> 01:11:54.641
Nonviolent Communication.

01:11:54.921 --> 01:11:59.201
And it's the separating observation from judgment, because I am observing you

01:11:59.201 --> 01:12:00.461
doing this and I'm making a judgment.

01:12:00.741 --> 01:12:05.521
And so once we do that, now, if I say, I want to know you, but I've already

01:12:05.521 --> 01:12:10.601
made a judgment on what I'm observing, then if you don't tell me exactly what,

01:12:11.041 --> 01:12:14.801
validate what I think you're doing, then I can also say you're not even being honest with yourself.

01:12:15.321 --> 01:12:20.641
And so this mind reading, somebody gets home and they're angry and then they

01:12:20.641 --> 01:12:23.581
walk past their partner and they don't say anything.

01:12:23.921 --> 01:12:26.401
That partner gets to say, okay, well, obviously they don't care.

01:12:26.761 --> 01:12:30.981
And so now they can shut down. They can tell themselves or they can come into

01:12:30.981 --> 01:12:31.941
the therapy office and say,

01:12:32.081 --> 01:12:35.221
well, what am i supposed to do everybody knows that when you come home you say

01:12:35.221 --> 01:12:38.181
hi everybody knows that it's obvious so they should

01:12:38.181 --> 01:12:41.941
be reading my mind and know that i am hurt now and then that person is thinking

01:12:41.941 --> 01:12:45.061
okay everybody knows if the universal sign for if you come in and you're angry

01:12:45.061 --> 01:12:49.181
that you need some time to cool off or everybody knows that you need to go say

01:12:49.181 --> 01:12:53.701
to them hey what's going on so we just have these expectations that we can read

01:12:53.701 --> 01:12:57.021
each other's minds we all think the same way and boy we don't.

01:12:57.643 --> 01:13:01.923
Do you know what's so funny? Like emotional maturity, everything you're describing,

01:13:02.123 --> 01:13:07.243
like the opposite side of all of these things is kind of just like really basic,

01:13:07.563 --> 01:13:09.343
easy, rational way of looking.

01:13:09.443 --> 01:13:11.703
Like it's just giving everybody the benefit of the doubt.

01:13:12.163 --> 01:13:16.103
You're self-included. Do you know what I mean? It's like, sometimes we make mistakes.

01:13:16.303 --> 01:13:19.843
Sometimes these things happen. Like we're all just human. It's all just really

01:13:19.843 --> 01:13:24.163
rational stuff of once we get down to actually listening and understanding one

01:13:24.163 --> 01:13:26.523
another, you're like, oh, that makes total sense why you thought that.

01:13:26.743 --> 01:13:29.023
It does. total sense why you would feel that way.

01:13:29.523 --> 01:13:32.583
You know what I mean? That happens. So we had one last night when we were preparing.

01:13:32.983 --> 01:13:36.703
So we went to bed last night. We've been staying up later and later recently

01:13:36.703 --> 01:13:39.143
for whatever reason, like our sleep schedule is getting different.

01:13:39.643 --> 01:13:44.143
And the night before that we had, we were drinking some tea and it had like

01:13:44.143 --> 01:13:48.163
valerian root in it or something like that. So it put us to sleep almost immediately.

01:13:48.363 --> 01:13:50.663
And I woke up the next day and I was kind of groggy and took us,

01:13:50.943 --> 01:13:52.783
the morning was a little bit slower for me.

01:13:52.903 --> 01:13:56.143
And I didn't want that to happen And this morning for this interview,

01:13:56.183 --> 01:13:57.943
I wanted to be more fresh and more awake.

01:13:58.223 --> 01:14:00.663
So last night, Steph, do you want some more tea? And I'm like,

01:14:00.763 --> 01:14:03.383
no. And I brushed her off in response to it.

01:14:03.663 --> 01:14:06.403
No, because we're going to bed. Yeah, no, we're going to bed.

01:14:06.403 --> 01:14:09.023
And then I went back out into the kitchen and I had a little snack.

01:14:09.023 --> 01:14:10.103
And she's like, what are you doing?

01:14:10.243 --> 01:14:13.763
Like, you said that we were going to bed and you just said no. And I'm like.

01:14:14.190 --> 01:14:16.770
That's because I didn't want the tea. Like as soon as I explained it to her,

01:14:16.850 --> 01:14:18.490
she's like, oh, that makes total sense.

01:14:18.770 --> 01:14:23.530
And at first I heard, and I'm in this phase right now where I'm really looking.

01:14:23.850 --> 01:14:26.350
Anyway, I'm going through some stuff and it's bringing out little me.

01:14:26.470 --> 01:14:28.710
So we keep acknowledging it. He's like, why did you think that?

01:14:28.790 --> 01:14:29.630
I'm like, because I'm two.

01:14:29.910 --> 01:14:32.810
I'm two right now. You know, I'm really like carrying this.

01:14:33.150 --> 01:14:38.070
But then it was like, what I heard is no, we couldn't do this thing together that I love doing that.

01:14:38.190 --> 01:14:41.610
We have this because we're going to bed because we have to get up early.

01:14:41.610 --> 01:14:46.710
And then you said no you didn't want to do this thing with me and it wasn't

01:14:46.710 --> 01:14:49.850
true about going to bed because then you just wanted to be and so i just made

01:14:49.850 --> 01:14:52.190
it like i i took it from this very.

01:14:53.090 --> 01:14:56.930
Childlike perspective of you don't like me you don't want to be i you know i

01:14:56.930 --> 01:15:00.850
understand how much i blew that out of the proportion but that's what i was

01:15:00.850 --> 01:15:04.070
feeling you don't like me you don't want to be around me you don't want to spend

01:15:04.070 --> 01:15:09.130
time with me and you just lie to me so now i'm not I'm safe and I don't know what's all of this.

01:15:09.250 --> 01:15:12.010
And he's, I just didn't want the tea. Yeah, Craig just didn't want to get sleepy.

01:15:12.150 --> 01:15:15.770
I love it. I love it. And I think that being, and it kind of goes back to that.

01:15:15.890 --> 01:15:17.890
We can check off so many of these in a good way.

01:15:18.090 --> 01:15:22.130
And the mind reading expectations or the emotional reasoning,

01:15:22.130 --> 01:15:25.050
I felt that. So obviously it's true and he should know.

01:15:25.290 --> 01:15:28.130
And there's a way to do it and not a way to do it. And that's why,

01:15:28.330 --> 01:15:32.430
and I worry a bit because I had a client say that it all feels overwhelming.

01:15:32.430 --> 01:15:35.530
And then I even said, okay, well, that's, we're back to, you think you're going

01:15:35.530 --> 01:15:40.130
to be doing it the wrong way. And I hope that as people start to hear these

01:15:40.130 --> 01:15:43.410
things that they can just recognize, okay, and I like this so much.

01:15:43.550 --> 01:15:46.930
I don't know the things I don't know. I think that is such a powerful concept.

01:15:47.130 --> 01:15:49.630
And the things I have learned, I used to not know.

01:15:49.910 --> 01:15:53.210
So this becomes more of those things that I didn't know. And now I know.

01:15:53.510 --> 01:15:57.470
And I think that over time, it gets to be exciting. I think of,

01:15:57.650 --> 01:16:00.590
well, what else is there that I don't know? I can't wait to know.

01:16:00.790 --> 01:16:03.910
And if I think that I have to master these and know all these,

01:16:04.090 --> 01:16:08.670
I'm right back to the, oh, I'm doing it the wrong way. or it's all or nothing or it's black or white.

01:16:09.250 --> 01:16:12.510
There's something in there. Like when we started down this path several years

01:16:12.510 --> 01:16:16.450
ago, and I was thinking about looking at myself through that lens of being emotionally

01:16:16.450 --> 01:16:21.030
immature, that immediately brings up judgment inside of me where I'm like,

01:16:21.130 --> 01:16:24.110
no, I'm not like I'm defensive to that term very much.

01:16:24.250 --> 01:16:26.450
Like growing up, it was like, well, you're just immature.

01:16:26.650 --> 01:16:29.410
It's this thing of you're not grown up enough. You don't really know.

01:16:29.530 --> 01:16:32.570
Like you're stupid. Right. We were told that forever. Very much.

01:16:33.770 --> 01:16:37.050
Like the reframe of like less because i

01:16:37.050 --> 01:16:40.670
was i still sit with that like the term emotional immaturity

01:16:40.670 --> 01:16:43.610
or emotional maturity as somehow

01:16:43.610 --> 01:16:48.170
like better than as opposed to just the learning process i like that like it's

01:16:48.170 --> 01:16:51.670
really easy to think about how we have to learn things we have to learn how

01:16:51.670 --> 01:16:55.010
to read we have to learn how to tie our shoes we have to learn things like we're

01:16:55.010 --> 01:16:59.690
all okay with that concept and idea intellectually having to learn things and

01:16:59.690 --> 01:17:03.510
i think emotional health is the exact same thing. It's something that we have to learn.

01:17:04.135 --> 01:17:06.675
We have to be taught it. We have to learn it. We have to absorb it.

01:17:06.975 --> 01:17:12.035
And looking at it through that lens rather than some sort of lack where this is, you know, I'm 40,

01:17:12.295 --> 01:17:17.275
I'm 44 years old and I'm still immature emotionally, as opposed to just,

01:17:17.455 --> 01:17:21.915
well, I haven't learned all the things that I need to learn emotionally. So I'm 55.

01:17:22.255 --> 01:17:26.335
And again, I would like to say I'm a 55 year old therapist for 20 years now

01:17:26.335 --> 01:17:28.215
with adult kids podcast.

01:17:28.635 --> 01:17:31.595
One would maybe think that I've got things figured out.

01:17:31.675 --> 01:17:37.955
And I love to be able to say with certainty, oh, I don't. But I don't I don't think that's the goal.

01:17:38.115 --> 01:17:40.375
I think it's to just continue to figure things out.

01:17:40.575 --> 01:17:43.655
And I do call it your own individualized customized treatment plan.

01:17:43.655 --> 01:17:46.295
I love acceptance and commitment therapy, the nurtured heart parenting,

01:17:46.475 --> 01:17:48.775
my beloved four pillars, differentiation.

01:17:48.775 --> 01:17:52.115
I'm going to go big on emotional immaturity, valor stages of faith.

01:17:52.255 --> 01:17:54.855
I found the things that really have helped me make sense of things.

01:17:55.075 --> 01:17:58.395
And so I am presenting them to the world. Now, if everybody does exactly all

01:17:58.395 --> 01:18:01.315
the things I do, then apparently I am right. So that helps, right?

01:18:01.715 --> 01:18:04.415
We're all going through it for the first time. And so we're going to pick up

01:18:04.415 --> 01:18:05.955
things from this person and this person.

01:18:06.055 --> 01:18:09.015
And I will say I have one of my favorite clients of all time.

01:18:09.015 --> 01:18:12.175
A few weeks ago, I brought to her this, all the immaturity stuff.

01:18:12.295 --> 01:18:14.155
And I was giddy. She was in the session.

01:18:14.435 --> 01:18:18.075
Her husband was in there. And I'm saying, isn't this cool? And I love the fact

01:18:18.075 --> 01:18:21.215
that she said, don't take this the wrong way, which what I love,

01:18:21.315 --> 01:18:23.795
by the way, is I don't think I can take anything the wrong way anymore.

01:18:23.915 --> 01:18:26.695
I think it's been quite a while because even from a differentiation lens,

01:18:26.895 --> 01:18:28.675
it's a, ooh, all right, this will be interesting.

01:18:29.055 --> 01:18:31.015
Tell me the things that I should take the wrong way. And I'm like,

01:18:31.135 --> 01:18:33.735
oh, I'm good. So I love that practice in and of itself.

01:18:33.975 --> 01:18:37.715
But then she said, when we started working with you, we got some four pillars.

01:18:37.935 --> 01:18:40.475
We got the need for validation. We start talking about differentiation.

01:18:41.055 --> 01:18:43.035
Now you're bringing all this immaturity stuff. And she said,

01:18:43.415 --> 01:18:46.895
when will you have it all figured out? And I just said, oh, never.

01:18:47.515 --> 01:18:50.635
Isn't that exciting? And that's where I went down this whole path of that.

01:18:50.735 --> 01:18:51.615
I don't know what I don't know.

01:18:51.795 --> 01:18:54.815
And so I can't wait to know more. And I always have this squishy thought of

01:18:54.815 --> 01:18:57.415
what's coming next. I really still think I'm going to learn a lot more about

01:18:57.415 --> 01:18:58.695
internal family systems.

01:18:58.935 --> 01:19:02.635
I think I know some about it. I think that I need to learn so much more about yoga.

01:19:03.115 --> 01:19:05.195
As I understand, I've got a couple of clients that are.

01:19:05.683 --> 01:19:08.443
Huge yoga enthusiasts there are so many things

01:19:08.443 --> 01:19:11.523
i cannot wait to know more about and i think that that becomes

01:19:11.523 --> 01:19:14.583
the journey of life and i've even the older

01:19:14.583 --> 01:19:17.823
we get i think we were talking about this earlier in time passing

01:19:17.823 --> 01:19:20.823
and i am somewhat becoming obsessed with

01:19:20.823 --> 01:19:23.483
how do i stay sharp the older i get and so i

01:19:23.483 --> 01:19:26.623
read a lot about the people as the population ages

01:19:26.623 --> 01:19:29.423
and i'm and i cherry pick articles that make me feel better

01:19:29.423 --> 01:19:32.303
but i found some good ones that say if you continue to learn

01:19:32.303 --> 01:19:35.883
have a sense of purpose that how much more you

01:19:35.883 --> 01:19:38.683
will be present and active and young and your mind will

01:19:38.683 --> 01:19:41.363
stay sharp and so i don't ever want to

01:19:41.363 --> 01:19:44.343
stop this stuff i don't think there's an end yeah i totally

01:19:44.343 --> 01:19:48.103
agree wasn't there something babe that you like i can't remember if you brought

01:19:48.103 --> 01:19:51.143
it up or i don't remember where i heard it but it was something like when you

01:19:51.143 --> 01:19:54.303
push yourself to do the hard things so like when there's the thing that you

01:19:54.303 --> 01:19:58.003
don't want to do but then you do it anyways and i'm not talking about like detrimental

01:19:58.003 --> 01:20:02.223
abuse of you know not violating your boundaries Yeah, not things that are hurtful to us in a sense.

01:20:02.363 --> 01:20:05.403
Things that are good for you that you know, and you just don't put forth that

01:20:05.403 --> 01:20:07.523
effort for yourself where it's going to be too hard.

01:20:07.543 --> 01:20:11.503
There's something neurologically in that space that helped with brain development

01:20:11.503 --> 01:20:15.523
and brain growth and things like that, where if you push yourself to do the

01:20:15.523 --> 01:20:18.563
thing that you don't want to do it continually, isn't that right? It builds your brain.

01:20:18.623 --> 01:20:21.023
Builds your brain. Yeah, it expands that part.

01:20:21.183 --> 01:20:24.703
And so you start to get better at it.

01:20:24.823 --> 01:20:27.763
And it's that thing too. with. So you have to keep finding that thing to push

01:20:27.763 --> 01:20:30.623
yourself. Cause once you get good at doing this thing and it's no longer hard,

01:20:30.623 --> 01:20:32.123
it's not working that same muscle.

01:20:32.423 --> 01:20:35.103
And it's not about that. Like you're going to hear that and be like,

01:20:35.223 --> 01:20:38.883
all right, I'll ultra marathon, you know, you don't have to like.

01:20:39.864 --> 01:20:43.784
Do you go to, or maybe if you like that, do it. I'm not saying not to do that,

01:20:43.784 --> 01:20:48.924
but it's like, once you find that edge, you can like to keep building,

01:20:49.124 --> 01:20:52.044
find something else. And it's, it's a rewarding thing too.

01:20:52.244 --> 01:20:56.184
It's also like you, you like what you're learning, but you just push yourself

01:20:56.184 --> 01:20:59.124
a little more than you would in that.

01:20:59.364 --> 01:21:02.164
I'm getting it wrong. It's okay. I'm getting it right.

01:21:03.004 --> 01:21:07.424
It's that flexing that muscle because you are actually helping yourself and

01:21:07.424 --> 01:21:12.724
you're actually loving yourself in that space when you're putting forth the effort for yourself.

01:21:13.044 --> 01:21:16.404
And that can be incredibly hard. Like it might be saying, no,

01:21:16.604 --> 01:21:21.104
I don't want tea when I'm going to bed right now, which has got to be scary

01:21:21.104 --> 01:21:25.024
on that space because your wife might think you don't love her anymore. Right.

01:21:25.584 --> 01:21:29.204
Yeah. Great. And so it's just these little things because it's building that

01:21:29.204 --> 01:21:33.524
brain, it's building that confidence and it's building that cognition muscle as well.

01:21:33.684 --> 01:21:36.704
And you're tapping in, it's setting new neurons that are going.

01:21:36.784 --> 01:21:38.624
So it's a, it's a healthy space.

01:21:38.884 --> 01:21:43.404
Yeah. And the book ADHD 2.0 of all things, which is, I look at that as a holy scripture.

01:21:43.704 --> 01:21:47.404
There's a great chapter in there about the neuroplasticity of the brain and

01:21:47.404 --> 01:21:52.284
how that the fixed brain mindset is, has been so debunked. You can teach an old dog new tricks.

01:21:52.504 --> 01:21:56.184
And so the constant learning, I think you're spot on stuff.

01:21:56.384 --> 01:22:00.784
And I, I love in the book and I'm not a big bibliotherapist.

01:22:00.904 --> 01:22:03.104
So this is making me sound like, Oh, I could quote things all day,

01:22:03.184 --> 01:22:04.784
but I I just have a few go-to that I love.

01:22:05.004 --> 01:22:08.944
But Buddha's Brain, this book by Rick Hansen, that's where I learned this concept

01:22:08.944 --> 01:22:12.824
of the mechanisms of memory, but even more so what an implicit memory is,

01:22:12.984 --> 01:22:16.424
which he says is implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based on

01:22:16.424 --> 01:22:18.064
the slow residue of your lived experience.

01:22:18.324 --> 01:22:23.224
So I think the more that we are doing of whatever it is, then it just becomes.

01:22:23.224 --> 01:22:27.524
So if I am a seeker of knowledge, if I am someone that is going to continue

01:22:27.524 --> 01:22:30.644
to push myself, it just eventually becomes what it feels like to be me.

01:22:30.644 --> 01:22:35.924
And I worry and it breaks my heart when people are continually ruminating,

01:22:36.304 --> 01:22:38.604
overthinking, worrying, because over time.

01:22:39.270 --> 01:22:42.830
And what it feels like to be that person or their implicit memory built on their

01:22:42.830 --> 01:22:48.770
slow residue of lived experience is they are one who overthinks and ruminates and worries.

01:22:49.190 --> 01:22:52.770
And I do not have data to back it up, but I just, it makes sense to me.

01:22:52.970 --> 01:22:57.930
That is what is going to keep me alive mentally is I worry that when people

01:22:57.930 --> 01:23:01.550
are worrying and overthinking and ruminating, that is how they are spending

01:23:01.550 --> 01:23:02.510
their emotional calories.

01:23:02.690 --> 01:23:06.150
And over time, that is what they do. And then when somebody is trying to get

01:23:06.150 --> 01:23:08.310
to know them, they're just going to hear a lot of that.

01:23:08.410 --> 01:23:12.250
But I worry about and I don't think you understand. And but what if and over

01:23:12.250 --> 01:23:16.010
time, if somebody is on their journey that is much different than that,

01:23:16.270 --> 01:23:21.330
then that won't necessarily be a person that they will feel as connected to.

01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:24.070
And that can be really difficult. Yeah.

01:23:24.890 --> 01:23:28.030
Tony, this has been so fun. This has been so cool. We love when you come on

01:23:28.030 --> 01:23:30.990
the podcast. I was excited about this. I think it's a great conversation.

01:23:31.350 --> 01:23:35.650
Emotional maturity, immaturity. I do think that it's the, like,

01:23:35.710 --> 01:23:39.650
if we look at society as a whole, I think it's the thing that we are all really

01:23:39.650 --> 01:23:41.770
needing to take an honest,

01:23:42.050 --> 01:23:46.470
no bullshit look at and recognize and start taking accountability before.

01:23:46.710 --> 01:23:49.850
And you've laid out a bunch of things I love so perfectly.

01:23:50.130 --> 01:23:53.850
The things to, okay, well, if I'm in this space, If it's black or white thinking,

01:23:54.090 --> 01:23:56.830
if I'm in the magical thinking, if I'm, you know, all of these,

01:23:56.890 --> 01:23:59.350
all of this stuff is very much stemming from that place.

01:23:59.450 --> 01:24:01.710
It's such a good foundation to start from.

01:24:01.990 --> 01:24:04.490
So I love it. This has been awesome. Once again, I love that I had the space

01:24:04.490 --> 01:24:08.250
to go through all this because I think the last time I was on,

01:24:08.370 --> 01:24:11.170
I maybe had shared with you guys, I used the first experiences.

01:24:11.390 --> 01:24:14.450
It's one of my, it's in my canon that I send to new clients.

01:24:14.590 --> 01:24:17.890
And I think this will be one I can't wait to share as well, because I appreciate

01:24:17.890 --> 01:24:22.210
you guys giving me the space and the energy and the fun times to work through

01:24:22.210 --> 01:24:25.850
or go through all these and that kind of detail. So I can't wait to share this with everybody too.

01:24:26.640 --> 01:24:31.740
That's so awesome. What's the, uh, do you have a website? You've got a website, don't you? Yeah.

01:24:32.240 --> 01:24:38.360
Tony overbay.com and then, or at the virtual couch on Tik TOK or at virtual.couch on Instagram.

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And I would love to say that in the not too distant future, I am working on

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a little bit of a course on emotional maturity and emotional maturity.

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And I do have a book that I'm trying to put together and, but I'm good at,

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that's my magical thinking.

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There are a lot of times where I've said, I'm going to do this and then I mean

01:24:56.780 --> 01:24:58.360
it in the moment and then I don't do it.

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But I think this is a, this is something that I just, so it's been just simmering for so long.

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And then it just finally all makes a lot more sense and it's coming together.

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And then I don't know if it just needed to wait until we are seeing all the

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things we're seeing in the world. But I think we need to just first start from

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a place of awareness of what emotional maturity looks like.

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So I want to be, I want to be on the forefront of that.

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I want, here's where I want to manifest and make it known that I want to speak to groups on this.

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I want to help people with this. I want to put a lot of content out about this

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because you can hear it and say, that's a good idea, but this is something I've

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been living for so long and trying to help people recognize, understand, be.

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And so I just think that we're just at the beginning of figuring out what to

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do with our emotional immaturity.

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And I think it will definitely change dynamics, relationships. And so why not the world?

01:25:46.560 --> 01:25:49.720
Yeah, there we go. I think it's the missing key. Yeah. Yeah.

01:25:50.120 --> 01:25:52.680
So thank you guys. Can't wait to have you come on my podcast next.

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I'm enjoying the home and away stuff, right? Absolutely. Yes.

01:25:57.520 --> 01:26:02.900
Let's wrap up, baby. Okay. Thank you so much. Expect the best. Plan for the greatest.

01:26:04.960 --> 01:26:09.360
Hey, everybody, let me take a quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode.

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I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake up to the fact

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that something in your life just isn't quite right.

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Let me ask you this. have you ever caught yourself thinking things are going to get better?

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Things will be better when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape

01:26:24.340 --> 01:26:27.740
or when you get the promotion or when you finally have a little more time or

01:26:27.740 --> 01:26:32.100
after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are invested in.

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That is magical thinking. It'll get better later.

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And that's what gets people to

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this place where they feel like they're not living their very best life.

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So welcome to later. It is now later. It is time to do something about it.

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Yeah, your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it would and you don't know why.

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Or maybe you think that you do, but nothing that you try seems to work or it

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actually seems to make things worse.

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And now you're stuck kicking the can down the road. And at this point,

01:26:58.883 --> 01:27:03.263
you've kicked that can so far down the road that you might qualify for a Guinness

01:27:03.263 --> 01:27:05.943
world record in emotional deflection. But here is the truth.

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It is time to stop letting your job, your marriage, your bank account,

01:27:09.563 --> 01:27:13.343
your kids, your fear, your ego dictate how you show up in your own life.

01:27:14.063 --> 01:27:17.323
I have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life,

01:27:17.523 --> 01:27:21.583
athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers and engineers and salesmen, you name it.

01:27:21.743 --> 01:27:25.623
And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think.

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The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym.

01:27:30.423 --> 01:27:33.823
It's admitting that you need help. Now, this may sound like a riddle,

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but I promise you it's not because I'm actually not a very big fan of riddles.

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So hear me out. You don't know what you don't know. And that's OK,

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because how could you know what you don't know? And the things that you've learned

01:27:43.803 --> 01:27:47.943
in your life up to this point were also things that you did not know until you learned them.

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So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a human,

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there is a lot more to learn. That can be an awesome thing.

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But for some reason, men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding this.

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But it is the key to the next phase of your life. And I can guide you down that

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path because real change doesn't come from chasing more. It comes from learning

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to look inward and confronting something inside of you that I promise you,

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you're probably not even aware of.

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So that is where my emotional architects men's group comes in.

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I promise that I do have the tools.

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You just have to show up, whether it's business, marriage, parenting,

01:28:22.543 --> 01:28:24.103
intimacy, health, finances, or friendships.

01:28:24.363 --> 01:28:29.523
The root of most of our struggles as men in particular is emotional immaturity. And guess what?

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We are all emotionally immature. But when you learn what it is,

01:28:33.103 --> 01:28:35.783
when you learn what it looks like, how it shows up in all the areas of your

01:28:35.783 --> 01:28:38.863
life, when you learn how to embrace it instead of running from it,

01:28:38.963 --> 01:28:40.443
everything starts to shift.

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So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month, you will get access

01:28:44.263 --> 01:28:48.243
to two group calls a month with like-minded men, guys who are ready to grow,

01:28:48.463 --> 01:28:52.083
with a clear, well-crafted roadmap that teaches you the things that you didn't

01:28:52.083 --> 01:28:56.683
even know that you were missing, as well as you'll have one-on-one access to yours truly.

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That's me. And a place to ask every question you've ever wanted answered.

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You name it, we'll answer it.

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So if you have been waiting for some sort of a sign, well, this is it.

01:29:05.483 --> 01:29:10.323
So go to tonyoverbay.com or email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and ask about

01:29:10.323 --> 01:29:13.463
the Men's Emotional Architects group. Later is today.

01:29:13.723 --> 01:29:17.943
And character transforming, life-altering change is ready and waiting for you.