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Have you ever seen a kid do an affair? I feel like I have. Same.
So maybe they pretend they're older or whatever.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, author, speaker,
and podcast host. Ask me questions about relationships, mental health, narcissism, and more.
And you, they're notifying viewers. Okay, the first one that shows up gets a welcome.
Right there. Hey, the white man. 996. Welcome. Welcome aboard.
I almost said I was going to give away stuff, but then that would be a lot of
work. to give away things, right?
Okay, hey, welcome everybody. I am Tony.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I used to have this whole thing down.
A certified mindful habit, coach, writer, speaker, husband, father,
four, ultramarathon runner, and creator of the Path Back, an online recovery
program that is helping people become their best selves and blah, blah, blah.
And then I got to the point where I didn't care anymore about saying all that
stuff. And that is where we are today. Welcome. I should have brought more Reese's in here.
So Mackie and I are answering your questions tonight. Real live marriage and
family therapist, But I am not providing therapy.
I am providing a therapeutic... No, I'm just giving you advice.
Just your thoughts. Exactly. Mackie and I host a podcast called The Mind,
The Mirror, and Me, where we talk about all kinds of stuff. I got the virtual couch.
When I'm up here and you're back there, my head looks huge and yours looks tiny.
Waking up with narcissism? Wait, we do this thing. Now my head's big.
I have a very large head. Like when I try to wear a hat, if I wear a fitted hat, it doesn't fit.
Did you know that? No, it's kind of... It's crazy. It really is.
Yeah. not not my not my finest trait i gotta
be honest all right hey everybody lena what's going on how are
you get the number one gifter badge thank you for gifting i
never asked for the gifts but i don't know how it works either but are you do
you know how somebody can throw a like a heart on your head or my head have
you ever done that i've never done it to someone okay and sometimes they'll
put like the mustache or a cowboy hat or anything like that so feel free to
do that that's fun boo he's married According to my mother. Yeah. This is my daughter.
Yeah. Although, if what you're saying is, oh my gosh, that guy looks so...
There it is, right there. Lena, thank you. Yeah. But you're probably saying, he looks so young.
That's probably what they're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah. But we are here to answer
any of your questions about anything relationship-wise. I've got an opening topic tonight.
Are you ready? Yeah. What do you know about the shadow self?
Like, have you ever heard of that? No, I actually haven't ever in my world. Ever for real? Ever.
At all? Shadow self? The shadow self? A famous psychologist back in the day, Carl Jung.
Lena loves your lives. Thank you, Lena. We appreciate you being here.
We're so excited about this.
But the shadow self, Carl Jung, he coined the term.
And it's a really fascinating concept because what
your shadow self is is it's like you're carrying
around a backpack all the time and you've just got all of these parts
and pieces but the stuff that's your shadow are the
things that you felt like were never acceptable when you were growing up and
they're in your back yeah like you're carrying they're part of who you are and
we often stuff our shadow selves down they're deep within within us but you
still are a sum of all of your parts if you grew up and you weren't allowed
to be angry for example then you might shove that down as your shadow.
And then the light side of that is you might be overly accommodating or a people
pleaser or that sort of thing.
So you have this shadow side of you that you just, you show down.
Amanda, you've helped me so much. Thank you for everything. Amanda, thanks for being here.
And so ask any questions that you have tonight. I'm just doing a little bit
of a little tap dance, a little warm up with the shadow self.
Tap dance? Can you tap dance? No. You know, it's funny though.
When I was a kid, I would watch, I don't even know, I don't even know what I'd
be watching where somebody would tap dance.
And so that was the one thing because i can't dance we talked about this the other night there
are no dancing genes in our family right i never was
taught because you don't know but i could do something where i would uh i
don't know pretend i was tap dancing and in my mind i thought oh i'd probably be pretty
good at this if i had tap shoes if you had tap shoes then you could dance yeah
one time i tried rubber banding spoons on the bottom of my shoes i had tap shoes
at one point when i was a kid you think you did do tap dance yeah but so the
shadow stuff so let me give you an example of this here's what i think is interesting
so have you ever met somebody that just really bothers you honestly.
How do you integrate your shadow self yeah okay we'll talk about that that's
a great question have you ever met somebody that just drives you crazy yes,
probably more often than not so what if what they're displaying is something
that you have tucked down deep within your it is part of your shadow self so
let's say that you're at a meeting at work and there's a co-worker and they're
just interrupting and they're making a lot of comments and you're thinking this guy needs to just chill,
Something like that. Okay. So what the shadow self can be is that you may feel
like, well, I was never told that I can just blurt out my opinion.
So I hate people because... It's because it's a little bit of that holding up a mirror to ourselves.
So let's say it's showing you the things that you don't know or that you maybe
subconsciously wish that you could do, but then you've never been given permission
to do that. Like tap dance? No.
Yes. If someone at work, even though you're an esthetician,
is tap dance, then that could so i wrote down some
examples of this that i think will let me tell you so in family relationships so
imagine that you have a sibling which you have three of them yeah who
just effortlessly ask mom and i for help
and they have no problem doing it uh whether it's like child
care or money or emotional support and then
you may find yourself feeling judgmental about that sibling
and i don't know if that one no no probably
not but if any of you have ever felt that so if you have a sibling that you
feel like is maybe annoying and okay and
we'll get to lena here too i can't express my opinions or feelings with my
family without conflict so that would be really really
hard right hey hannah so that but that would
be hard there lena because if you feel like you can't express those feelings without
conflict then what the the argument for
your shadow might be is now you're going to tuck that away and then if you are
in an environment and you feel like you can't express your emotions but other
people are then that would be where that is that would be part of your shadow
self because it's something that you weren't allowed to do and you're watching
other people do it and it might seem like well that's not fair that they can
do that. Let's go romantic relationships. Okay.
Think about somebody who feels intense irritation if their partner expresses
sadness or vulnerability. And you might think, why can't they just handle their stuff?
Or you might be the one that's in a relationship and you are expressing vulnerability
and the other person might be thinking, why can't you just, why don't you just
take care of that yourself and not really worry about that? Does that make sense?
It makes sense. I just don't. Well, because that reaction, it often points to
like your own inability to express or to just be tough and handle things.
Because what you're seeing in that other person is something that you feel like
is impossible for you to maybe embrace.
Yeah, I get that part. That's what it is. Oh, yeah. Okay.
Got it. Okay. Or if somebody, if you're at a party,
and I think about this, if somebody's
loud or they're being the center of attention and that annoys you,
is it because you feel like you you feel insecure
or you wish you could be the center of attention so that's
what it's talking about can it also just be though that you think someone's annoying
yes yes it can and and it
has nothing to do with your shadow whatsoever well what if it's like a crappy
person doing crappy things that's true i mean because and so here's when who
was it was it lena saying how do you integrate your shadow yeah so when you
notice that that an emotional reaction seems bigger than the situation warrants
that's usually the first clue that you're dealing along with the shadow trigger. Yeah.
So, so if it's something that you're just, you just think that person's annoying,
then yeah, they can be annoying.
But that's a, but if you say, or you have to ask yourself, okay,
if I'm being completely honest, is there a part of me that wishes I could be
more like that? Yeah. No, I get that. Yeah.
And that's the, and that's, I think where you start seeing our own emotional
immaturity. So if you watch somebody and they're doing something that you wish
that you could do, but you're afraid to admit that, man, I wish I had that talent or that skill. Yeah.
Then, and when you make fun of that, or then that can be what's coming from
your shadow okay let's get to the questions okay okay the goat
in jurassic park oh go to from jurassic park
has been here before welcome back the goat in jurassic park because that
is a very funny name thoughts on noticing patterns of
emotional regression around your parents yeah that's and
i wonder the goat in jurassic park if you're open to maybe sharing an age range
even of where what because this is one that i think is really fascinating so
we're supposed to what they are yeah what they are not the parents but yeah
great point and i'm i really mean that because you're supposed to become more
differentiated from your parent.
And if you remember what the concept of differentiation is, is it means that
you are starting to, as you grow older, you want to maintain a connection with
others while developing your own sense of self or your autonomy.
So it seems like a little bit of a paradox that I'm going to grow closer to
this person, but also hold on to myself, my own sense of self.
And so when you have parents that are not allowing you to become differentiated,
where they aren't being curious about your experience, or when you share your
experience, they do a lot of judgment or saying, I wouldn't do that if I were
you, or that doesn't seem very smart to me.
Then they're holding you back from becoming more differentiated.
And so a lot of times what your own body keeps the score, that vibe will do
is you'll start to play small because over time, it's like, why am I trying
to express my hopes and my dreams with this person who is just continuing to
tell me I wouldn't do that? That's not a very smart thing.
What if they won't talk to you at all when you are your own person?
That's a them issue, Josh.
That's a great question. And when I say that's a them issue.
I'm sounding aggressive. I am a little bit. Because when you are putting yourself
out there, talking about how you think, feel.
If you're doing your side of it,
then it is a them issue if they're not contributing in any positive way.
Well, and I think that's a great question, the way you frame that.
Because that is what differentiation is. every opportunity when you interact
with somebody is ultimately an opportunity for you to grow,
you to self-confront and grow, because you might be learning in that situation
that these are not people that I can feel safe opening up to because they're
not curious about my situation and they're not interested.
And maybe they're continuing to look on their phones or they're just immediately making it about them.
Then you're learning in that interaction that this is not somebody that I feel safe talking to.
Which sucks if it's your parents that are making me feel that way,
but it's like they are also people and sometimes and yeah
is that okay daniel i need to set better boundaries with my parents
that i'm living with and probably that is
tricky and remember too daniel boundary versus ultimatum ultimatum is hey look
you guys need to hear me you guys need to be more supportive that's an ultimatum
and that's where if your parents bless their hearts are a little bit more emotionally
immature you've just given them some some buttons to push oh really well you
won't tell me or if you're living under this roof you need to listen to us or
there's all those kind of things.
The boundary is if they are not being curious or if they are not willing to
listen or if they, then I, then I will not continue to share with them or then
I will spend more time outside or at my friend's house. Yeah.
Um, okay. Can we get into Lucy's? Yeah. Lucy. Do you guys have an opinion on
the let them theory? Yeah. I do. Do you know that one? Yeah. Yeah.
Mel Robbins. I have the book in my audible and I have a funny story about that,
but you go first. What do you think about it? I think.
I have lots of thoughts. Do you really? I don't know if we've talked about this.
No, I think the first time, because the most I've seen is just like clips from TikTok.
Like that's where I heard it first. Yeah. Like from the podcast and stuff of that and whatever.
But I think overall I like it and I think it's a good thing. Yeah.
Because there's power in just not letting what other people are doing affect
you or have an effect on you. Yeah.
And so I think that they're, I'm trying to think of examples that like, that's, I'm like.
We'll get to them because I. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I, but I do think overall
it's a great thing because it's not fair to you, to, to anyone to be negatively
affected by other people's actions, you know?
So it's like, and it's not worth the fight of, that's what I mean,
like with an example, like if someone is doing something to you. Yeah.
Yes. That's where I go with that too. It's not worth your energy to deal with that. Yeah.
Would it be a good thing if you do it to your partner?
See though that's where i think i'd say no but maybe i'm well i feel like it
depends it depends on what we're talking about because if your partner's being
mean to you don't just let them that's not the that's not what it is like that's
so it's like i feel like there's a fine line there.
But see i can't think of an example but i'm sure there are things within a relationship
where it's okay to let them yeah so like be their own person and do their thing
and not let it affect you or your relationship, but don't let them be mean to you.
And that's where I step in with my opinion. The first, what I think is, maybe it's funny to me,
story is as a licensed marriage and family therapist and creating some content
and podcasts and that sort of thing, I have found myself being emotionally immature
and somewhat jealous of someone like Mel Robbins, who is everywhere.
But then I realized, okay, that's my immaturity. And the more that I started
to listen to her content, one of the first things I learned from her that I
really liked was the countdown, the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, when I'd be scrolling on social media.
And I would just, sometimes it's wild to just think, even though I'm an adult,
I'm a therapist, I'm 55, I'm whatever.
And I just am mindlessly scrolling, scrolling.
And I heard her talk about the countdown, five, four, three,
two, one. And that works for me every time. So that's brilliant.
And then the let them theory, I really like it because it is a form of becoming
differentiated, that that's a them issue.
And at first I thought, okay, she's found a great way to say that's a them thing.
Because I'm really, when I say that's a them thing, it sounds a bit passive aggressive.
Yeah there's a woman named tabitha brown i love her content
where she says that's their business remember her
and that's my business and that's their business so i think
that's i think i need to soften up my that's a little bit that's a you thing
but there is truth to it that is yeah but then when but you're right though
because i i deal so much with couples because i i'm a couples therapist and
i might see 20 couples in a week and when there is emotional abuse physical
abuse those sort of things.
The let them is something that then there are people that are in a pretty,
pretty solid one down position in a relationship that then will hear something like that.
And they almost then attach to that as if then, okay, I just need to let them do their thing. Right.
Even if it's impacting me. And that's not fair. Right. Which that Lucy then
said though, so I don't know if she might not like it, but let them blah,
blah, blah, but let me react a certain way.
There you go. Oh, it does make sense. And I feel like that's getting... Yeah.
And that's where, and that's where one of my clients who I just love to death
she just devoured that book um right when it
came out and then we had a session the next day and she was asking
my opinion and i was telling her again i don't know i don't know enough about
it yet but she was sharing that with me that it's a great concept and
she said they she that mel all that says the the word differentiation because
but then remember that one of the best parts about differentiation is i can
let them but then i can here comes a boundary then if they are going to if i
am letting them and they are going to do something that is not healthy or good for me then I will exit.
And I think that toward the end of the book, I think apparently she might say then the let me.
So that's the part I don't know. I've never read the book. I've only seen the
little clips. But yeah, because it's let them do their things. Oh, it's stars.
Let's talk about that, right? Yeah. Because it's not your job to...
Change them or make them do things differently but that doesn't
mean yeah it's just let them and then deal with the consequences yeah so start
what started saying when i react and try to talk to my husband he just yells more
and i'm so sorry for that too i work a
lot with the the world of the emotionally immature slash narcissistic
traits and tendencies people and that's incredible
immaturity when somebody continues to get louder and bigger because that's their
little kid it's a little kid there inside of them that is saying this is the
only way that i will have control that they can't rely on their big boy words
or to be able to express their emotions or when somebody is saying something
that makes them feel bad, then what do they do?
How do they get rid of their discomfort? They turn around and yell or they get
angry to then take that one up position.
So it starts, I'm so sorry. And that's one where a boundary,
a healthy boundary would be when he yells, then I leave.
And unfortunately, that doesn't mean that he'll respect the boundary.
And that's why boundaries are so important because they're your,
it's a you thing. It's for you to take back a little bit of that power,
even though it's not that you're letting him know I'm taking back power.
I just, that is something that I have to do.
So I really do. I love the concept around let them. And this is where so much
of real mental health work is about something works until it doesn't,
or it works in the times that it does, but there are other times where you need
other tools. So it's not just an all or nothing.
So some people will embrace something like a let them, and then just hang on
to that because it's better than not having a tool, but it's a tool to start
with and then there will be situations where it won't work and i think that's
what i love yeah that's so important to know right but it's not yeah it's not a yeah.
One-size-fits-all situation yeah and what i like about i mean i love this being
able to interact with even just the community that shows up at these lives because
hopefully you'll walk away from this tonight and if you're even curious about
what is the let them theory that it is about being differentiated that is a
them issue that is their business i can let them be who they are,
but that doesn't mean that then I have to then manage their emotions or that I have to play small.
And so that's where it's something to interact with to help yourself become
better. Okay, what else do we have? Yeah.
Mini ryan feel free to break up questions into multiples
if you want to okay you're saying i want to
be able to type as much as i want right now i'm getting an answer oh i hear you
or just sum it up for and we'll try yeah we will
do our best there okay john why do i still miss my ex
after four months and i dated them for a year i'd say
that's pretty normal that's not that doesn't mean anything like
when you're committed to a person for that long and they take
up that much of your time for that long they don't
just disappear out of your mind they don't and and think about this too
think of all the especially during the the love bombing
or the honeymoon phase of the relationship how you're already
planning i think yeah you planned your whole life yeah
whether people want to admit it or not i think that we're we're all for
the most part your mind it does that we're dreamers and so yeah
so then we think about it we think about good situations and
if you if it took a year to break up then i'm
sure that there were times that were good there were then times that
weren't so good and now we're starting to tiptoe into
the waters of the trauma bond a little bit of that intermittent reinforcement where
the same person that gives you the punishment also provides you
with the reward and it can it actually acts in the area of the brain that's
similar to where a like a drug addict does so the person and that's why so often
when i see people in my office where they're navigating a breakup but the person
they want to go commiserate with is the person that they're breaking up with have you ever felt that
Yeah, no, I know that feeling I told you about this in one of the last lives
The Bachelor people Where the guy was a.
Don't shadow ban. Don't get a shadow ban. He sucked. And the girl went on the
Call Her Daddy podcast. Oh, yeah. You remember that? Yeah.
And she brought up that point where she was like, it's so hard because the one
person I want to... She's crying and she's hurting.
And it's like the one person she wants to go talk to about it is the one that hurt her.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it is that weird, like... Absolutely.
But I definitely felt that after my somewhat traumatic relationship.
Or a very traumatic relationship.
Where it was like... That was the person I went to for nearly a year.
And so then as I'm going through things after that, it was like,
my first thought would be, that's who I want to talk to. And then two minutes
later, I'd be like, no, I don't.
Yeah. But it does. You're so used to that. They occupied so much of your mental
calories, your emotional calories.
For a long time. It's going to take some time to grieve. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's
Stages of Grief and Loss.
It's interesting. If you go look at those up, they're not, it's actually not
an evidence-based model.
And that's one where, while I might not be a fan of things like the love languages,
because people will weaponize those against each other.
And those aren't an evidence-based model, but the stages of grief and loss,
the acronym is DABDA, which is a hard one to remember, but yeah,
denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance.
I like those because even again, if it's not, it is linear evidence-based model,
know that there's going to be a lot of denial that, that this is not happening
or, and there's going to be anger. How can they do this to me?
And then the bargaining is a really wild stage because I, that's the,
one of the most misunderstood.
The bargaining is okay. I'll do whatever it takes to make this thing work.
And then, yeah. Like, I'll sacrifice things. Yeah, I'll sacrifice things.
I'll lose my sense of self because when it's good, it is good. And maybe it is my fault.
And I'll tell you, Mac, one of the things I think is so crazy is how many people
will then try to make a situation about them.
Because if it's about them, they can fix it.
But right it's like gaining back control yeah
so even if not in a malicious way exactly
yeah so the happy fun version of control you hear control and
it's automatically negative yeah yeah which segue yeah is control a real thing
will we ever have it or is it just paradoxical oh that's a great question yeah
so honestly i don't so we want we want there's some things we want we want control
we want certainty we want to alleviate our discomfort and what you just said
there, is it paradoxical?
That is one of my favorite words in mental health because weren't we talking
about this where if the things that were easy to do worked, then nobody would have any problems.
Oh yeah. So that's the paradoxical nature of mental health in general.
So if I could just stop thinking things, then that'd be easy.
But when I try to not think of things, don't think about the white elephant.
Don't think about the white elephant wearing a green tutu. Don't think about
him balancing on a ball. Don't think about him throwing things with his trunk. We all just did it.
That is the easiest paradoxical example of mental health.
So, what we have to do is we have to acknowledge, I'm thinking it,
acknowledge that I'm feeling my feelings.
So, if I go back to control a real thing, it's why do I need control?
Because I think for the most part, control is an immature response,
is a way to have things in our lives and in our relationships.
I can have acceptance and I can make room for the things that I want.
But if I need to control them, then I think that starts to control me versus
that's something that I'm moving toward, that I would like,
that I want to embrace, that I would love to notice, to bring it along with
me, but control, then all of a sudden it is controlling me.
That's tricky stuff. Yeah, the paradoxical stuff though. Yeah,
that's deep, especially with the mental health. Yeah, I think about that a lot.
Okay, speed run for you. What are your favorite book recommendations for couples?
You know, I used to always say Emotionally Focused or Hold Me Tight,
which is a Sue Johnson book.
It's about emotionally focused therapy. And it is a good book,
but I am slowly but surely moving over from the emotionally focused therapy
model to more of a model of becoming differentiated.
Being a differentiation therapist.
And there's a book by David Schnarch called Passionate Marriage.
The unfortunate part is it's not available in audio or on Kindle.
So you have to buy the actual book and read it. I like actual books. I can't do audio books.
But any of this stuff from Sue Johnson, I think Love Sense is her follow-up
book from Hold Me Tight. And I really like that as well.
Yeah, those are my immediate go-tos. Okay. Going back.
There we go, Lucy. Yeah, that's the part. You can't have Let Them without Let
Me, which I liked about the book. But I was a skeptic. Yeah.
And I appreciate that. And that's what... Oh, I was going to say something else
about a book. So I'm working on a book about my emotional baseline,
Raising Your Emotional Baseline right now.
And I've got a book out about addiction and recovery.
And there's a really fascinating thing that happens when you write a book.
Trauma Bond Preach, I like who said that.
But when you are writing a book, it's wild. Because I always wanted to write
a book. And then when I finally got a book deal and I was writing a book,
I got so behind on writing it. Because when you actually are starting to write it, it's odd.
It's just such a trip to think, these are going to be the words.
And it's almost like they're going to be locked in. And I wanted to just go
on and on and on explaining all the different variations and variables that would be in a situation.
So even I know that someone like a Mel Robbins, there's going to be, yeah, let them, let me.
And it's hard to, I often think of when you're writing a book,
you just have to make it, there's a template.
And you'll never, ever be able to address all the things that you want to.
Even in podcasts, I've got 700 podcasts out now.
You still have so much more. So much more. And I just want to just keep going and going. Exactly.
Okay. Are you ready to speed run? Oh, yeah. We're getting behind. Okay.
Okay. I feel stuck in life no matter what I do, how to start making change in my life.
Little tiny things is my initial go-to thing. Do you mind speed running like
the fact that, what were you like a year ago?
Horrible? The worst I've ever been in my own life? No, you were horrible. Mackie.
No, but I had just gotten a diagnosis for an autoimmune disease,
and I had spent years not feeling
like myself and feeling awful and was at the peak of it and everything was
terrible and my mental health was the worst it had ever been and genuinely
what has got me to a point where i'm okay is the
little tiny things and we joked about this on our on
podcast and stuff too but like i got into legos and
like made lego flowers yeah watercolor reading books
puzzles playing my piano like it's all the little things that don't feel important
are actually you were go on walks up in the canyon yeah i would go on walks
i and it's like even the dumb like taking a shower and brushing your teeth twice
a day and like thank you for me like i would just i would.
It sounds dumb but i would set a goal to do my makeup every day
even if i didn't feel like it just because it was like self-care in a
sense and made me feel better but it's genuinely the tiny
little not even 10 shifts it's even
smaller than that and it's petting your dog that's
the one you always say no but it's doing anything besides just
sitting and ruminating that that right
there and i want to come back to you in a second here because i want i would
love for you people to hear for those that are
new here don't know mackie's story go find the mind
the mirror and me podcast or on the virtual couch we talked about at
one point but you've lost how much weight in the
last year 65 pounds you you
and you did an amazing job and i think even on the podcast i
was saying of course i knew you would do it no i was like worried
that that would be hard too hard to do you meal prepped your
own food you cook things you you were just so disciplined and then we ran a
half marathon a few months ago and you pr'd and and that was all within a year
and a little over a year ago just for anybody that we moved out to arizona you
were in utah i was in california but we called you one afternoon or you called
us and you weren't doing very well and i jumped on the worst day.
I jumped on an airplane i said mackie do you want me to come get you and you
said i don't know Yeah, no, and I don't know.
You got on an airplane? I did. I got on an airplane a couple hours later,
made it out there. You picked me up at the airport. I didn't even know if you would.
I mean, I was planning on just coming back the next day if I had to. Yeah.
And we drove through the night. We wanted the air conditioning on traveling
through the night. It was so cold. I couldn't breathe. I was anxious.
It was so cold. And we sang songs and I took my ADHD medication.
Thank goodness. So I was like,
I stayed up for a couple of days. Remember you dropped me off at my work and
I started to see like 12 clients the next day. And I'm like,
Hey guys, I'm fine. How are you?
What a great day. And it's like, genuinely though, it's so weird to even think
that that's what position I was in now because I am okay right now. It's incredible.
And so it's like, it is that it does get better and it gets a little worse sometimes,
but it always gets better. And it is because of the little tiny things. Yeah.
So don't just, don't think you're not doing anything. If all you did was shower.
You know, like that's all I'm getting at work.
That's what i want to say a year later matter your life has changed
so much and that you did not see that coming and danielle
it just takes a little bit of courage a little bit of time a little bit of perseverance
yeah lots of little bits of things and then i do i
call it the my emotional baseline theory that when you
are when you're on top of the world your baseline of emotions is high and
everything seems pretty easy and you're making all the decisions that come at you
when you start to feel pretty bad your baseline of emotions drops but
all the same decisions were there you had a salon studio
you had you're trying to make money you were trying to and all
those decisions were there and the lower your emotional baseline got the
harder it was to reach up and grab the tools that
you needed yeah and so then i was backtracking so hard
and i didn't know how to fix anything and everything was overwhelming yeah and
so what mackey's saying and what and what we're talking about is what it means
to raise your emotional baseline is self-care self-care is not selfish and self-care
can be everything from listening to something thinking something dreaming something
believing something then starting to take action do a little coloring do a little
colors go on a walk set a timer for an hour and every
time that timer goes off get up and turn it off and get back
down whatever you have to do anything that's because you're
bumping your baseline up a little bit yeah and this is the part two where i'm
not a psychiatrist i'm a marriage and family therapist so i don't prescribe
medication yeah but medication is it can help raise your emotional baseline
a little bit yeah so it might bump you up enough to then be able to access the
tools you might need of meditation mindfulness going on walks reaching out to people.
And that's a really difficult thing because a lot of times people,
their emotional baseline is so low and they're the ones that are trying to say.
Should i do this but then and that's that's what was
hard about when i was saying should i come get you because i was too low
your baseline's low so that's really hard i was like
no i'm fine but i wasn't fine yeah so that's yeah
so just do anything to raise that emotional baseline lucy
said have y'all heard of the finch app it's cute and starts
out with small goals i haven't but that does sound cute okay can.
I be honest but so i'm sitting back here and i need
new glasses i really do i thought i said small goats i'm
dead serious because i'm watching severance and they're into the section where
the cooper ferguson was on there says to invite him live we
should invite cooper live and kelly said hi kelly hey kelly kelly
what's going on thanks for coming kelly's one of the ogs which
i think is so cool like riddle nerd i've seen uh real nerd
here kelly there's people that have just been here for a long time it's really.
Cool it is okay i'm near
i i have never meal prepped and lost 60 pounds to ash way
to go for us be nice i have
never meal prepped and i have not lost any pounds so i
guess you put us all together we got it all figured out but
i'm happy for you oh what's the condition somebody said are you
open to that oh um hashimoto's hypothyroidism yeah
okay mini ryan again
how do you fight depression and anxiety being
bipolar do i get medicated honestly and again this is
where i'm just gonna throw out first thing everything don't
that's you know eat no et is that
too i never saw it as a kid but i do know it was very
scary to me they use Reese's Pieces for ET and
I've never liked Reese's Pieces and M&Ms were anyway
anyway okay um everything we
just said about all the little things that would be my same answer initially
to fighting depression and anxiety because
also when I was like 14 I
was diagnosed with depression and it was a legit very serious thing for me from
that high school time and it was all those same little things like it was that's
when i taught myself guitar piano and like it was those same it's also that
same and the baseline theory also is very crucial i think to.
Managing depression and anxiety so take all that into account but then you the
bipolar and the bipolar is one that uh i've been asked before about that one
and that's one i'm not as familiar with and but i know that it that bipolar
is one that that does most likely needs some medication.
And and i know that there are people that if they are
bipolar but they take an antidepressant that that isn't really
going to address it or if they have depression and they take did
i just say that same thing but or vice versa so you really
don't jump into something just then maybe you know yeah talk
about it and think about it definitely go to a doctor medication is
not a bad thing it doesn't make you weak and it's just a helpful
tool yep absolutely okay i like uh sophia's how to oh here's how to deal with
test anxiety oh test anxiety is a good one test anxiety is one i'll just super
quick speed run on that one yeah is it really is is embracing or accepting the
fact that i am anxious about this test because it goes back to that so many
people that have things like test anxiety,
then just they're so worried about the test anxiety that then the test anxiety
is the thing that is controlling them.
Back to that. But if I accept the fact that, oh, I'm going to have test anxiety,
now I can also study and I can acknowledge and there's that test anxiety again.
It's that concept of where when I talk about acceptance doesn't mean apathy.
If you look at anxiety in general, if you are so anxious that you want to avoid
all things that will cause anxiety, then the anxiety is the thing that is in control.
But if I accept the fact that I'm going to be anxious then i can also
go and interact with people and i can i can pet my dog
i can go out and on a run oh and i can also be anxious so
you're making space or room to have all of those
feelings and emotions so you have to accept that i will be
anxious i say this one every time i can't stand being scared at movies but we
go to scary movies because my throw your popcorn and you cover your eyes because
my adult kids actually want to go out with me as an adult dad and that blows
my of mine, but they like scary movies.
Literally every time if i if i was saying okay i don't want
to be scared which is fair then i would
miss out on going out with my kids and their significant
others and holding my wife's hand and eating popcorn and building
a connection yeah so sharing that experience literally every time that i'm at
a scary movie and the lights go down and i do have the popcorn and hopefully
my riddle is kicked in at that point but then every single time i'm like oh
i'm not i always say to wendy i'm not ready for this i'm not but but i love
being when you actually threw the popcorn and And you lifted,
like you jumped out of your seat and threw your, I was next to you and threw your popcorn.
How about, how about, um, last time you went to a movie? Is it this side on my face or this side?
This side. Oh, but it's healing. Nice. Yeah. The scar. I ran into a wall.
We were at a movie and he ran straight into a wall. That one is,
that one's pretty rough. And was like. I got my bell rung.
Like maybe would need stitches. Yeah. And you guys watched and you laughed. We were dying.
It was so funny. Was it though? It was. I find it hard to progress in a negative environment.
Oh, Lena, absolutely. And this is where I would love to know more about that
because there's so much.
Now, if we go into my favorite therapy modality of ACT, acceptance and commitment
therapy, that if you're doing things that you really just don't want to do or
you're in a place where you don't want to be, then we fit that into this concept
of your... Let me just give the socially compliant goal.
When I'm doing something that I think I'm supposed to do or else,
or else somebody will be disappointed in me.
So if I'm in a place that is negative and I feel like, but I have to be here
because, I don't know, it's my friends or that sort of thing,
then I fit that into this bucket of a socially compliant goal.
And if you're existing in the socially compliant goals, your motivation to be
there is pretty weak and ineffective because it goes against who you want to be.
And so that is a sign for you to try to get out of that.
But I know it can be hard. I feel like there's almost a tie to emotional baseline
in a sense, but in a shifted way. But if you're in the negative environment,
I feel like it wouldn't be your emotional baseline, but something is lower overall.
And so it's harder to progress because...
It is all negative. What's hard is, Lena, and maybe I can talk about this too.
I work with enough people that feel like they are stuck, whatever it is,
wherever they are, stuck in their job, stuck in their relationship, stuck in their family.
And in those situations, the fact that you're aware of it is the first step.
Okay, I'm acknowledging that this is not the place that I want to be.
But then often what we do is even we'll respond immaturely to that.
We'll make sure that everybody knows that I'm upset or frustrated or I don't want to be here.
The problem is if those are the people that are, they're being immature,
they're not being supportive, they're not being curious about your experience
or then your shutting down is not going to cause them to go,
oh my gosh, hey, tell me what's going on there, champ.
So your opportunity for growth there is at first recognizing this isn't somewhere I want to be.
These aren't the people I want to be around. This isn't the environment that
I want to be in. And so, just acknowledge that, accept that,
because then what you can do is you maybe can be able to have a tiny bit of
control in that environment.
Whether, man, Viktor Frankl, the book Man's Search for Meaning,
that, if anybody has not read that, it's a quick read, but he was in a concentration camp.
Talk about being somewhere that you have no control. And he would say that the
place that he could live was within his mind, that he just had an opportunity
to just create narratives, create stories, create spaces in his mind.
That's deep. It is, and I often think that... I feel like it would normally
go the opposite way. It typically does go the opposite way, but then your mind is not your safe space.
Okay, Viktor Frankl... This is a book? Yeah, yeah, Man's Search for Meaning.
It's really good, Mac. I think it might be in our Kindle library.
I don't do Kindle. His famous quote is... Well, there's a few.
He said, The one thing you can't
take away from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me.
And he says, Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is,
but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked.
But, okay, let me find the one... Smart gun. There's a bunch. There's a...
Okay. Oh, in every situation, there is a moment to pause and decide how we'll react.
He just was really about building space between stimulus and response was one
of his most famous concepts because I've actually taken that and built it into
my addiction recovery program.
So when somebody has, in the world of like addiction, if somebody has a thought,
usually it goes, there's a trigger, a thought and an action.
And so you're trying to build space. If you can address your triggers, that's ideal.
So let's say that somebody gets really down or depressed or they act out with
impulsive or compulsive behaviors whenever they're by themselves or they're
hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
They can start to recognize that those are the triggers. So can I make sure
that I'm with friends? Can I make sure that I'm fed?
But if I can address that trigger, but then I'm going to have a thought and
then I'm going to do an action.
And like that Viktor Frankl concept is, can I build space between thought and
the action, whether it's by doing something, going for a walk,
calling a friend, doing pushups, or whether I can now just make room for that
and notice my thoughts and my emotions, my feelings.
One of the best places that you can start to raise that baseline or start to
do self-care is in the way that you respond in a situation.
And it doesn't mean you have to get mad at somebody or tell them what they're
doing is wrong. Your response is in your mind.
That's deep to think of that as self-care, though. It is. Yeah.
So you can be in an environment where your parents are being kind of jerks or
your spouse is what I was saying earlier. Yeah.
And you can then in that moment respond inside even your mind of this is not
something that I want to be a part of. This is something I want to start to see.
And you're showing yourself love by doing that. Yeah. That I can start to try to move away from.
Yeah. That's deep. That is. I need a speed run, my guy. Okay.
Wait. You keep saying speed run. Because we need to speed run. we're
getting behind any tips to conquering
inner critic yeah that your inner critic it's a
great great question your inner critic is that just constant
inner monologue inner dialogue and this is why i talk so much about acceptance
and commitment therapy because i believe that most of our inner critic comes
from the way that we talk to ourselves the way we beat ourselves up when we
say man i'm so dumb or i shouldn't have thought that or what's wrong with me
and this is my big soapbox I like to talk about.
And this is where the typical way that we talk about a lot of therapists or
influencers or motivational speakers start from that.
Your thoughts, you have your stinking thinking, your automatic negative thoughts,
and then you just have to change it and then you'll be happier.
Now that can work when somebody has no idea where to start from.
Just think of it differently.
But acceptance and commitment therapy is the most beautiful thing because it starts with,
again, you're the only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth
mac you with your nature nurture birth order dna abandonment rejection hopes
fears dreams and everything that makes you you so you actually think and feel
the way you do because you do and you're not broken you're human thank you yeah
thank you and so in that so if your inner critic is saying man you are so dumb
you shouldn't have handled that way it's okay uh noted noted.
Onto the next thing yeah so uh because it's when you are just when you're giving
so much energy or power or focus to that inner critic, that inner critic is,
you can become differentiated from yourself, from your inner critic.
So when your inner critic is telling you, you should have known better,
then it's okay. That's a thought. That is.
Thank you. Thanks, I guess. And it takes time to do that because you have so
many thoughts and so many emotions and so many feelings that are happening.
And try not to say what's wrong with me. Nothing's wrong with you.
You're going through life literally the very first time.
Very first time is you. So that is how you're thinking. That is how you're feeling.
So check that out. That is all that you need to say to that.
That really is. Your inner critic is trying to say something to you and think it.
I appreciate you, voice inside my head.
The very founder of acceptance and commitment therapy, Dr. Stephen Hayes,
when he started talking about this, I loved it because I swear,
maybe I'm missing, maybe I'm mixing up stories, but I swear he called his inner
voice, George. So he'd say, thanks, George.
And in mine, it's just, okay, thanks brain. I appreciate you saying that because
I'm going to do a quick check-in.
Actually, I don't agree that I should have known or what's wrong with me. Nothing.
And you do that over time. And here's the part that I don't know if this sounds
good or bad, but over time,
what it feels like to be you your implicit memory which
is built on the very slow residue of your lived experience the things
you think and do and interact and say to yourself that if
you can start to notice and and make those small changes
like we talked about earlier then what it can feel like to be you even
on the inside can start to really really change and i will be
honest with you i did not know that that was even a thing until
it becomes a thing and then i don't have
that inner voice that's the what's wrong with me and i still
do plenty of dumb things every day but uh
yeah but even today i looked for
a remote control that would move a teleprompter
30 minutes in my office i have teleprompter software yeah and i have this little
remote control stump found it but the whole time i was noticing that i was could
have been frustrated i was and i was taking great delight and finding other
things in the bottom of my backpack and then at 30 minutes later i just okay,
I am not going to find that to that remote. That is happening.
Check that out check that out really it was
okay yeah you didn't hit anything no i didn't i ate a chocolate chip
muffin top though oh yeah because i did find that in
your backpack and you ate it no i found it on the stool
beside me okay from when i bought it um why
do the people in my life who need therapy the most don't go it's
frustrating it's super frustrating what do you think they have
the most work to do and it's too oh it's
too scary or upsetting for them
to have to acknowledge that they need the help
it is interesting they're so far into it that
it's it's just like we
need i don't know i feel like like with the narcissist if
they've confabulated things so far then they don't even think
that they need help that's a great i see what you're saying you know yeah yeah that's actually
what yeah what mackey's saying the confabulation thing is an amazing thing what
we do with our own memory the stories we tell ourselves here i'm talking about the
good version i'm okay i'm not broken i'm human but if
it's the i'm never wrong i don't need therapy you need
therapy now i'm projecting shadow self yeah
that's the thing yeah because if they would because if
i would need therapy so many people do the all or nothing
black or white stuff so much where they're thinking okay if i need therapy then
that means that i have to admit that there are things that i might have done
or that i do that that people aren't happy about and then all of a sudden everyone
is gonna think that i've done that i'm bad or there's so many so much too overwhelming
to even be a thing so then they just don't it really is huh okay where do we go Oh.
It's a lot. Okay. Ooh, oh.
Wait, does this one fit you at all? Any ideas how to deal with an older sibling
who is controlling? Have you met my older sibling?
She's the nicest person. Okay. I'm not saying it in a bad way.
She is so nice. Like, have you seen her? No. Yeah, yeah. I have the nicest older sibling, so I, that.
I don't know. Yeah, okay. Did you ever relate to that? Yeah, well, no.
Okay. And I was like, my older sibling and I just, we didn't really talk much.
So I think if I were just, if I'm just giving generic advice,
generic advice, throwaway advice, whatever, but not really trying to say that.
But it goes back to that concept that maybe tonight's theme of becoming differentiated,
of trying to maintain a connection while holding on to your sense of self,
which is going to mean boundaries.
So if the older sibling is controlling, then you will most likely need to find
a way to start to do things on your own.
And the unfortunate part is a controlling person is typically controlling because
it gives them this false sense of self.
They feel like if they are controlling someone, that then they will...
Oh, there's a therapist there too.
She's an AMFT? Yeah, Associate Marriage and Family Therapist. In North? NorCal.
Tessa. Northern California. Okay. And you buy some building clientele.
Send me an email, first of all. Tony at TonyOverBay.com.
And where are you at? In NorCal. And I like trying to help other therapists.
But advice on building clientele.
Here's, okay. I would love to know your thoughts on this for real.
Because this is something that when I was a brand new... Roseville!
Oh, that's where my... I'm at Roseville.
Okay. Tessa, are you near me at all? I have an office in Rockland that I go
to every other Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Let's see. Okay.
Okay reach out to me that's crazy i know that's cool so i have an
office in rockland i've got an office in arizona but i go back to rockland every other
week lead hill do you know where that is yes where i am
what no no i'm lone tree
i know where lead hill is i used to be near lead hill yeah okay now i guess
it's not scary to say i grew up in lincoln yeah is that a lot because we don't
live there oh yeah yeah but but here's the here's the thing i want to throw
out there and i think this is one i did i wrote for a newspaper for 10 years for free uh humor column,
in lincoln in lincoln for for 10 years and
i would speak places and i just felt like i would
i spoke a lot huh yeah yeah and and
i felt like it was just getting your reps in yeah and you just you
basically just put yourself out there so when people did need
yeah therapy it's like they knew of you yeah
you know so then i feel like people like i feel like people just knew
your name well enough at some point where if they ever
had anyone say anything they could be like oh well tony does
something like that and then i started this podcast i started the
virtual couch 10 years ago now and there's uh
oh yeah podcast that's almost 500 episodes and i
think what is challenging there too tessa is that the
first 100 episodes i felt kind of silly
i really did and when people was your podcast oh good okay and so when people
would say things like oh you're still doing that little podcast thing oh you
said tick me off on the inside and then and then but i would go speak i would
speak everywhere and i powered through that of people making you feel and there
were a couple people that would would say they told me that i was giving away my.
Whatever i forget and but that were those were people that weren't
doing it they were people that weren't doing that and now um email
tony at tony overbay.com tessa reach out you're gonna
have to come on a podcast that'll be fun um but
at that point though then you were just put getting in the reps and
consistency and now because what is it for is it like word of mouth is that
your most are like referrals or what i mean now it's i feel like for what i
do it's social media but i feel like therapy is not as much therapy i mean still
though i don't know i don't know so i've got a wait list i get i get a whole
bunch of referrals it's really yeah anyway actually i probably could.
I hope he calls. Yeah, I hope he calls her. Okay. Oh, and Tessa said she loves
the naming it thing that you're talking about. Oh, good. What's DBT?
I don't know enough about DBT, Sophie.
That's one thing that really, it's dialectical behavioral therapy,
DBT. And it's used a lot with things like borderline personality disorder.
But DBT, there's a couple of things that I just wish I knew more about, and I really don't.
As a matter of fact, if there's a therapist that listens to this.
Oh, how's your little therapy thing? if there's a if somebody
knows of a good dbt therapist please have them reach
out to me i've never interviewed one on my podcast and i would really like
to do that yeah okay wait what's a lucy i've thought about being a therapist
but i'm worried about getting to attach the clients that's a great that's a
great thought i remember in grad school there was a keep up those boundaries
yeah how to keep up the balance um it i've never thought about that there was there was a i had a.
One of my professors was absent and there was a substitute
that came in one night and she literally talked about she had
adopted a couple of kids that she had worked with as a therapist like that's
got to be a bound that's got to be ethical is that allowed i don't think so i
mean that's what i remember we all thought like what yeah yeah but it
really is making sure that you i used to be in a there
like a therapist like a bunch of us would talk about things and now
i have a couple of associates and so you do group supervision and
so a therapist is typically gonna maybe have their own therapy group
or they're gonna do their own therapy or they're going
to be able to talk about things and that's one of the best
things that you can do is to have somebody that you can that can kind of check
you because you can care a lot about other people as well i was like just like
reading i'm reading over your thing so then i was like you can care about stuff
okay let's do a couple more but yeah you gotta we're almost gonna we'll go an hour. 10 more minutes.
Okay, wait, do you want to do this? At the virtual couch.
Oh, there's so many good ones.
Okay, there's one that, what does it mean when it has a little thing?
If it senses anything that might be, like, not okay, it does that,
and then we get to approve it.
Yeah, so there's somebody that says, what about dealing with corn?
This guy wrote a book about it. In your marriage. And that's one where,
another one where, email me at tony at tonyoverbay.com, because I'm working
on an episode right now about that.
I have a lot of thoughts. And you have a book. I do have a book called He's a Corn Addict. Now what?
An expert and a former addict answer your questions. I play the role of the expert.
And Joshua Shea, who has a big following on TikTok as well, is that he's the
addict. And it's a really good book.
And it's available on all the things. But email him. Yeah, do. Yeah.
Okay. Oh, okay. Emma Kate, I've come to the conclusion that my husband has a
set idea of who he believes I am.
That's such a great way to put that. But it's him assuming the worst.
Yeah. And that's one where there's so much there.
So we, when we get in, remember, we talked to Emma last time. Oh, yeah, I know Emma.
Yeah. Okay. I do know. Yeah. Okay. With Emma.
So we, when we're in relationships, basically we are putting out a version of
ourselves and we're saying to the other person, you think this is who I am. Right.
And then when that person is reacting maybe differently to us,
then that's that whole concept of the, okay, I'm going to, self-confront and
say, okay, is this who I am?
But that doesn't mean that just because that person sees you a certain way,
that that is who you are. Does that make sense?
If they see you that way, that doesn't automatically mean that.
Yeah. Like if I walk around.
You're still yourself. Yeah. Regardless of what they've decided you are in their mind.
And so what that becomes, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your relationship,
that is your opportunity to decide, is there truth in how this person perceives you?
Or do you know who you are? And I ultimately say, you do.
And lately I'm throwing some numbers on it. So, I want you to look at yourself
as with a 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of self.
So, you ultimately know who you are.
And so, when somebody says, well, I think you're somebody else. Oh, do you now?
That's the 10%. You hold on to that 90%. Exactly. And say, okay,
I'm willing to hear you, but there's a 90% chance that I know myself better. Yeah. Yeah.
Because I think so often when somebody feels insecure in the relationship,
they maybe are coming at it with a 30% solid, 70% flexible sense of self.
And then they're asking everybody, who do you think I am? How do you think I should do this?
Right? Yeah. And we make jokes about that. Like, remember at the restaurant
last night when you said, where are you guys?
In our seats. because i was like
oh you'll walk into the restaurant and you will see us funny i
have well i don't have sometimes i get anxious and
i like to know things prior okay yeah emailed my social psychology press professor
all your information because i was telling her how much i love you all and oh
my gosh you are the best thank you okay that's cute and nice i know that really
is okay let's do some more we got seven minutes mackie because i know you have
things that you want to go do,
You have a life, apparently. Not really. I have one friend. Okay.
Oh, that... How about that one? Can you speak to that? Okay, Carl 400.
Dating somebody with past trauma, meaning being cheated on and having trust issues.
This is a great question. Because we bring our past relationships and our past
worries and fears into the current relationship.
Because it's what you know. It's what you know. So it is, you got to give people
grace with that because it is just what you know and it's hard to just throw that away.
But I think you need to be able to communicate about it. So let's say this is
where there's another, so I do a lot in the world of narcissism and emotional immaturity.
Go check out the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, which is actually bigger than
the Virtual Couch podcast.
But there's another narcissism expert named Dr.
Ramani. And she talked one time, and I like this.
I've got my own version of this. where she talked about she called it
there's a narcissist and then there's a lesser narcissist so i
like to say there's somebody that's incredibly emotionally immature and they're most
likely in a relationship with somebody that is is also immature
that's why we find each other and so when you let's
say you get out of the relationship with the really narcissistic person
or the really emotionally immature and now you
get into a relationship with somebody that's we'll call them more normal and
now you're the one yeah because of what happened to you in
this relationship so now when this person says hey i'm
gonna go hang out with my friends all of a sudden you're like what does
that mean because when this person said i'm gonna go hang out with my friends
it did not mean they were hanging out with their friends yeah i fear this is
me it is most people i'm learning this right
now right so now when they're like hey i'm gonna i'm gonna
take a nap i'll get back to you later and you're texting and
texting and texting and all of a sudden they're like i said
i would like talk to you later right and so that's
the one where the reason i'm bringing that up is i think so for carl yeah oh
oh lena great advice there lots of honesty patience and
reassurance and i appreciate lena you saying the reassurance because
i think a lot of times people will jump right to the well i shouldn't have to
calm their anxiety or i shouldn't have to be that's a them issue no if you're
in a relationship yeah yeah it is part of committing to that relationship is
accepting that the other person has i don't want to say baggage but has had.
Experiences and feels different than you do because they're a different person
than you. So hopefully they can say okay, check this out.
And then you can both be curious and come together and heal.
There it is. There's the puzzle.
You can help each other heal and then grow stronger in your relationship.
Absolutely. So if you can have the courage that takes courage. So the reassurance is.
Should be just a thing. It shouldn't be something that you're fighting or not willing to give. Yeah.
Yeah. And Danielle brings up a good point that we can integrate in here.
I feel like knowing yourself is hard because isn't that ever changing?
Absolutely. Because it's the first time that you are in these situations.
And you should be changing.
That's good. That's growing. It is. So when you're in the relationship and all
of a sudden now, when that person says, I'm going to hang out with my friends,
do you have the courage to say, Hey, check this out.
Oh, and Lena, a good partner can be very healing. So check this out.
When you say that, here's where I go.
Because if that partner says well geez i guess i'll never go
out with my friends again right run is that
too extreme but if you're but if they're
like oh man tell me about that what's that what's that like yeah carl
been with her five years and there's still some times where she has the fear of cheating the
sometimes is the question i'd have carl because that's fair
um i think a lot of times when people have been hurt they're especially
to as somebody that has been cheated on it does some
damage like because you
can be with the like you can be with a partner that you
completely trust wholeheartedly and that
still or that pain pops up
sometimes and it's very or personally for me
like having feeling that being with a good partner that I do trust it's very
frustrating like all I'm saying is give her some grace because it's very frustrating
when those feelings come up and you can logically say i know that my partner
would not do these things yeah but there's still this.
Thanks okay trauma there's or like this or it's
a thought and it does pop in your head and then it's hard to let that thought
go i would say though you've done a nice job though bringing you had the courage
to be known yeah right because it is it's just about communicating and so i
feel like if anything that is like a you're allowed to open up that conversation with her yeah and.
Do you believe that fear will ever go away or she'll still live with it
it's a great question i really think there's a old proverb or
that i like where it was uh it's where
okay so this person comes and they go to the
it's like a i want to say a chinese proverb or buddhist proverb where the person
goes to their master and they say okay they pour salt in a glass of water and
they have them drink of it with a straw the water is really salty then they
go to a lake which this is a part that i think is kind of gross because they're
going to drink out of the lake but that's maybe my ADHD talking,
but then they go back and they pour the same amount of salt in the lake.
And then he says, okay, drink from a straw in there. And then you can't taste any of the salt.
So it's like the salt's still in there, but you're starting,
you make that much room for it.
So the more trust you have in the relationship over time and the more that you're
able to, and I was going to say earlier too, I use this phrase a lot in my couple's
therapy of testing for safety.
And I think it's okay to, for the guy in this situation, Carl,
you to know that on occasion she may still just throw out a test for safety.
And when it's not that she's saying she doesn't trust you or saying she really
thinks you're going to do something like that.
But it is like a, yeah, it's that fear of abandonment and fear of getting hurt and all of that.
So if you are showing up in a human who feels things, right.
And if you're, and if you're solid, this is where I like, if you're solid with
yourself, then if, if she is testing for safety, then I'm going to say,
man, I appreciate you sharing that. That would be hard if you still find yourself.
And you can have that conversation.
Now, honestly, and I don't know your situation.
I did an episode on attachment. Go find it on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago.
And I talked about your attachment orientation. So we still talked about anxious
attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized attachment.
But the reason I did it was because there's some new research that came out
that's talking about, let's call it your attachment orientation.
And it's the way that you bring your attachment issues into the relationship,
but you can change them with that awareness.
But the reason I did the whole podcast was based on one line that talked about
remembering that the things you're bringing into the relationship ultimately
are things that you are carrying from your childhood.
So I have seen situations where
somebody can show up and this is why differentiation is so beautiful.
I can show up and be the very best version of myself. I can choose myself.
I can stay grounded. I can not play small.
I can own my own stuff. I can make changes.
And that person may still not choose me.
And that's and ultimately that is a them issue. and
that's hard because I've worked with a couple of people in particular lately
that have shown up the very best version of their self
and the other person is I think wounded from
childhood that then they still cannot be
in the relationship and a lot of times when we
get into relationships we're so codependent we're so enmeshed because
we're everybody's immature going into relationships because
we don't know we don't know and then you go through things and you get the tools and
you start to communicate more effectively but then your partner may
still not trust or they may still have really
difficult situations that they still project
onto you or do you see i'm going there yeah yeah
it's complicated it is but i
mean with that is the relationship ever easy or is it always a fixer-upper that's
like i like the fixer-upper part because at some points yeah it's two
imperfect people coming together and trying to build a
life with each other and there is always going to be i don't
think it doesn't mean there has to be screaming and yelling and fighting and
anything like that but it doesn't mean that things are just going to be perfect
and easy well chris i'll catch you before we go real quick i've seen you've
said that before yeah but it's not gonna be perfect and easy 24 7 and there
are gonna be like it's gonna ebb and flow of.
All the things yeah and that's that can
still be normal and healthy yeah but that doesn't mean just assume if
there is screaming and yelling and constant fighting that that's not
normal no exactly healthy and so imagine this
and i'm not even trying to be funny but this is where what it
is so normal in a relationship to get to the point where all you talk about
are the things that are easy because the things that are difficult to talk about
are so hard and it's because we didn't learn how to we're so afraid of contention
that we avoid tension in the relationship altogether and so learning that growth
comes from the discomfort learning how to self-soothe and to show up and know that.
It's easier to run away from my anxiety and my fear than to confront it.
But when you start to get, I always say you get your reps and repetitions,
your practice in becoming differentiated, that you over time,
again, things take a lot longer than we think.
But over time, when you notice that you are wanting to have a difficult conversation
rather than kicking that can down the road and saying, you know what, I'll do it later.
Then you know that, okay, we're going to learn more about each other through this conversation.
And that's where really go find me on
the virtual couch look up my four pillars of a connected conversation because
there i have an amazing framework where i'm assuming
good intentions that person is not trying to hurt me
with the way they're showing up it is making me uncomfortable i
can't tell them they're wrong or i don't believe them even if i think they're wrong or
i don't believe them because if i start going down that path we're going to go out in the weeds
and we're just going to start and tip for tat and then i'm
going to go into questions before comments i'm going to be curious i'm
going to say tell me more about that what is that like for you but i got to
step out of my own ego it's going to be really awkward and then i'm going to stay present i'm
not going to go into a victim mindset and anyway there's a lot
there and i've got a marriage course update coming out soon and
leave it there yeah that one right okay chris thanks
for sticking with us because i i have a severe adhd um i have temporary paralysis
from severe adhd and anxiety advice so one of the best things i think you can
do if you've been diagnosed with adhd please read the book ADHD 2.0 by Hallowell
and Rattay. I make jokes often and I say it's my Bible.
It's an amazing book because there are so many things about ADHD that I think
we're learning more about now.
It has some of the best concepts where ADHD, it's like we have a Ferrari engine
and we have bicycle brakes.
It's that we have to find the right kind of difficult. It's understanding that
what executive functioning challenges really look like.
There's this teeter-totter of thinking and doing thinking and
doing and apparently people can think about things and
not want to do something else or do things and not think about something
else but the adhd brain our teeter-totter kind
of broke so when i'm thinking about something all of a sudden i think i want
to do something else look at that and when i'm doing something all of a sudden
that makes me want to think about something else and so it's accepting and learning
how to deal with those wonderful challenges when you find the right kind of
difficult then you really can thrive and it's interesting because
there's some thought where people want to call it VAST,
variable attention stimulus trait, rather than attention deficit disorder.
It's not in a deficit of attention when you find the right kind of difficult.
And then when you can do something until all of a sudden you don't want to do it.
And that's been one of the greatest things for me personally is I spent 10 years
in a career I hated, the computer industry.
And when I found therapy, all of a sudden I get to see a client and then another
one is completely different and then another one.
And then I can write and I can go speak and I can do a podcast.
And you're finding that right kind of difficult. And then there's so many things in that book as well.
The concepts around rejection sensitivity that those
of us with adhd we were told no some believe 10
to 20 000 times more by the time we were 12 or 13 or
whatever it is even just not just like no but not now
buddy or you know you seem like a whole lot and so we have anticipatory rejection
so we're sometimes going into things anticipating rejection which can cause
anxiety which can cause a temporary paralysis and and then they have a beautiful
section on connection vitamin c that we really do need connection with others,
but it can be difficult again because of that rejection sensitivity.
And ADHD, if you really have it, is one of the most efficacious.
It's one of the most successfully things treated through medication.
And that section alone talks about how people with.
Undiagnosed or untreated ADHD, it's a
significant portion that turned to unhealthy coping
mechanisms because we do we just we
we are impulsive there sometimes it's
the fun kind of impulsive other times it's the not so fun kind
so there's a lot there that can be done and and is
your contact yeah yeah yeah and as
a again as a card carrying member of the adhd club
which i didn't get my diagnosis till nine ten years ago
in my mid-40s it's i i do i that's one of the biggest things where when i say
i have to accept the fact that i can i wish i would have gotten my diagnosis
sooner so do everything you can to find out more about adhd and know that it
can be once you if you have it and you embrace it it's it can be a fun time i'm a pretty fun hang,
Oh, yeah. I don't think you're paying
attention. And I feel rejection very sensitively. You're fine. Thank you.
Okay. Everybody, what a wonderful time. Mackie, thank you for showing up tonight. I appreciate it.
And we're trying to do these every Sunday night. So if we didn't get to your question, come back.
Oh, and if Sydney was here, she would say that she's going to put this up on YouTube in a few days.
And then I put in the thing that you were on here tonight. Go follow you at Mackie.
Mackie Overbank. And follow her at Mackieoverbay on iwasnay.com,
but not really. It's on the ticking talk.
Right? Follow me. Follow you.
Thanks, Mack. I'm hungry. I'm too. I think that's why I tapped out a little bit. You did good.
Thanks. Yeah. All right. Here's the part where I awkwardly...
20 minutes to find the ending it button. Yeah. Okay.
Thanks, everybody. Have a wonderful time. I was going to say,
we'll see you next time on the virtual couch. This is not the podcast.
Wake up to narcissism. Virtual couch. Wait, I've answered, if you're interested
in talking it, just email contact at tonyoverbay.com. You, yeah.
And I'm, uh, I'll, yeah, I'll do more Q&A podcast episodes throughout the week as well.
Have you even thought about, every now and again, I'll get a cancellation and
somebody will say, oh, I'm so sorry I can't make it, but of course I know I
have to pay you, which is like the greatest client in the world.
And in those situations, I've thought, I should just go live and answer questions.
Yeah, you should. I'd be all by myself.
What's up?
Music.