1 00:02:02,277 --> 00:02:02,907 Day. 2 00:02:03,147 --> 00:02:04,737 Welcome back to the podcast. 3 00:02:04,737 --> 00:02:06,357 I'm so happy you're returning. 4 00:02:06,717 --> 00:02:07,227 Thank you. 5 00:02:07,227 --> 00:02:08,487 I'm so happy to be here. 6 00:02:08,577 --> 00:02:09,297 Yeah. 7 00:02:09,297 --> 00:02:14,007 You know, I was thinking today, I, I have been lucky enough to have a handful of 8 00:02:14,007 --> 00:02:18,717 people that have returned for a second or even a third conversation, and it's 9 00:02:18,717 --> 00:02:21,237 really cool to see how conversations. 10 00:02:21,762 --> 00:02:23,562 Expand and shift over years. 11 00:02:23,562 --> 00:02:25,092 So I'm excited for this. 12 00:02:25,092 --> 00:02:25,337 They're, they're 13 00:02:25,342 --> 00:02:26,592 alive, right? 14 00:02:26,592 --> 00:02:26,652 Yeah. 15 00:02:26,652 --> 00:02:27,177 They grow. 16 00:02:27,882 --> 00:02:28,212 Yeah. 17 00:02:28,212 --> 00:02:28,902 They're rooted. 18 00:02:28,902 --> 00:02:30,432 They grow, they change. 19 00:02:30,612 --> 00:02:31,092 Yeah. 20 00:02:31,092 --> 00:02:33,252 I'm happy to, happy to keep it alive with you. 21 00:02:33,762 --> 00:02:34,122 Yeah. 22 00:02:34,152 --> 00:02:34,632 Thank you. 23 00:02:35,412 --> 00:02:40,542 So we started chatting over email several months ago, like late 20, 24, I think. 24 00:02:40,962 --> 00:02:45,522 And there was a line in your initial email that really jumped out at me, 25 00:02:45,522 --> 00:02:46,902 and this is where I wanna start. 26 00:02:46,992 --> 00:02:52,242 You wrote to me, I'm on a mission to support individuals navigating 27 00:02:52,242 --> 00:02:55,182 transitions and healing through ritual. 28 00:02:55,542 --> 00:02:55,632 Mm-hmm. 29 00:02:57,402 --> 00:03:02,982 We didn't know what late January, February, March, April, and so 30 00:03:02,982 --> 00:03:05,712 on was gonna look like in 2025. 31 00:03:05,712 --> 00:03:10,722 And so now here we are, late spring, navigating a whole lot of transition 32 00:03:10,722 --> 00:03:19,122 and chaos and, um, I'm, I'm really interested in how you feel about 33 00:03:19,122 --> 00:03:21,222 your work in this particular moment. 34 00:03:21,252 --> 00:03:24,582 What's speaking to you in this moment about your work? 35 00:03:25,812 --> 00:03:30,642 Yeah, I'd say, I mean, when you first said that, when you just reread my comment 36 00:03:30,642 --> 00:03:33,012 to me, 'cause I forgot what I wrote. 37 00:03:33,492 --> 00:03:39,612 Um, I'd say the first thing that came to mind was, is this time different? 38 00:03:40,242 --> 00:03:40,512 Hmm. 39 00:03:40,902 --> 00:03:41,352 Is it. 40 00:03:42,207 --> 00:03:44,367 I just, it's funny that that's the question that's 41 00:03:44,367 --> 00:03:45,477 coming up for me right now. 42 00:03:45,477 --> 00:03:54,297 I just, last week, um, opened in a major art exhibit in San Francisco and, um, 43 00:03:54,417 --> 00:03:59,097 and without going too deeply into it, um, it's been in the works for two years 44 00:03:59,877 --> 00:04:07,917 and it, originally it was inspired by my desire to reinvent one of my cultural. 45 00:04:08,247 --> 00:04:09,507 Ritual objects. 46 00:04:10,137 --> 00:04:12,987 Um, a Jewish ritual object called the Seder plate, which 47 00:04:12,987 --> 00:04:14,307 is connected to Passover. 48 00:04:14,307 --> 00:04:14,367 Hmm. 49 00:04:15,357 --> 00:04:19,887 I, that's, I knew I wanted to, to play with that because it's very 50 00:04:19,887 --> 00:04:25,917 much for us, an altar, um, on the table and the objects on it are. 51 00:04:26,622 --> 00:04:32,412 Organic and grown and you know, it's like, it's a kind of like my cultural alter, 52 00:04:32,442 --> 00:04:36,042 impermanent art alter, which is what I do. 53 00:04:36,042 --> 00:04:39,822 And um, and I knew I wanted to reinvent that. 54 00:04:40,677 --> 00:04:41,937 I didn't know what I wanted to do. 55 00:04:41,937 --> 00:04:46,137 Thank God we want a grant where I could dream for over a year 56 00:04:46,287 --> 00:04:51,897 into the vision and, um, and actually dreaming into that vision. 57 00:04:52,077 --> 00:04:56,247 Um, in the middle of that dreaming October 7th happened in Israel. 58 00:04:56,252 --> 00:04:56,442 Mm-hmm. 59 00:04:56,902 --> 00:04:58,677 And, um. 60 00:04:59,322 --> 00:05:02,262 Fast forward, like almost six months later, just a rise 61 00:05:02,262 --> 00:05:04,662 of antisemitism globally. 62 00:05:05,262 --> 00:05:13,002 And then last year at my own table, at my own Passover table, there was argument and 63 00:05:13,542 --> 00:05:18,132 there was division, and there was like too much certainty and opinion at the table, 64 00:05:18,132 --> 00:05:20,742 and it felt like my table broke in half. 65 00:05:21,777 --> 00:05:26,637 Um, and that experience, which was deeply disturbing and I had to mend a lot of 66 00:05:26,637 --> 00:05:30,297 friendships and relationships because friends became strangers at the table. 67 00:05:30,837 --> 00:05:36,057 Um, that, that unfortunate experience actually gave birth to the vision 68 00:05:36,057 --> 00:05:40,167 for this art installation, um, which was the reinvention of the 69 00:05:40,167 --> 00:05:43,347 Seder plate into six broken tables. 70 00:05:44,472 --> 00:05:44,712 Hmm. 71 00:05:44,742 --> 00:05:45,072 Right. 72 00:05:45,072 --> 00:05:49,632 And so in the exhibit, the audience goes, they enter into the room ritually. 73 00:05:49,962 --> 00:05:56,382 They go through each table, and each table is set like it is for Passover, beautiful 74 00:05:56,382 --> 00:06:01,212 dishes and wine and whatnot, except all the tables are broken in half and they're 75 00:06:01,212 --> 00:06:04,332 shards emerging from the broken pieces. 76 00:06:04,632 --> 00:06:09,402 And then the elements from the Seder plate are emerging from the shards. 77 00:06:09,747 --> 00:06:14,247 And so for instance, one table, it has bones just jutting out of them. 78 00:06:14,517 --> 00:06:18,657 Another table has eggshells just sitting on the edge of the shards. 79 00:06:18,657 --> 00:06:22,767 Another table has salt water dripping from the shards, right? 80 00:06:22,767 --> 00:06:24,087 And so it's very interactive. 81 00:06:24,087 --> 00:06:28,227 There's a whole sound experience with it, and it ends. 82 00:06:28,287 --> 00:06:29,337 I'm getting to your question. 83 00:06:29,382 --> 00:06:29,442 I'm 84 00:06:30,102 --> 00:06:30,522 loving this. 85 00:06:30,522 --> 00:06:30,582 It 86 00:06:31,302 --> 00:06:37,542 ends after they, they move to the plant table, which has all of these 87 00:06:37,542 --> 00:06:41,892 greens that are growing from the broken pieces, almost like an apocalypse 88 00:06:41,892 --> 00:06:46,872 where nature's just kind of growing from the broken back hole again. 89 00:06:47,502 --> 00:06:51,552 Um, after that, there's a light. 90 00:06:52,827 --> 00:06:56,637 Um, it's called a gobo, which means like it's a projection of light 91 00:06:56,637 --> 00:07:00,657 that has words on it, and it's both in Hebrew and in English. 92 00:07:00,957 --> 00:07:05,097 And it says, um, in Hebrew it says Manish Tanana. 93 00:07:05,697 --> 00:07:10,137 And in English it's, it means what makes this time different. 94 00:07:11,847 --> 00:07:15,537 And so as they leave this experience, which is deeply. 95 00:07:16,497 --> 00:07:21,687 Unsettling, provocative kind of it's art, so it's including everything. 96 00:07:21,687 --> 00:07:25,227 It's not taking a side, it's just helping people experience 97 00:07:25,227 --> 00:07:26,907 the brokenness of this time. 98 00:07:27,327 --> 00:07:30,297 The question that they're being asked as they leave this ritual 99 00:07:30,297 --> 00:07:32,817 space is what is this time different? 100 00:07:33,507 --> 00:07:40,317 Is it, and if so, if this time is different, what is required of us now 101 00:07:41,097 --> 00:07:42,987 that is different than other times? 102 00:07:44,532 --> 00:07:48,342 And that is the landscape of ritual, right? 103 00:07:48,582 --> 00:07:54,852 Like rituals are done most of the time to mark entering into something 104 00:07:54,852 --> 00:07:58,122 new and exiting something else. 105 00:07:58,752 --> 00:08:02,892 It's the, it is the landscape of the interstitial of the InBetween. 106 00:08:03,657 --> 00:08:07,407 So we, and that could be as easy as like waking up and starting your day 107 00:08:07,407 --> 00:08:09,117 or ending your day and going to bed. 108 00:08:09,117 --> 00:08:13,587 I do a nighttime ritual, takes me 10 seconds, but it's a marker 109 00:08:13,587 --> 00:08:17,337 that I'm leaving the day and I'm entering into the night. 110 00:08:19,317 --> 00:08:22,767 And so, and then Ritual asks that question like, is this different? 111 00:08:23,097 --> 00:08:23,637 Yes. 112 00:08:23,697 --> 00:08:25,587 I don't have any responsibilities. 113 00:08:25,587 --> 00:08:30,777 I don't need to worry, you know, I can put down my to-dos like at nighttime. 114 00:08:30,777 --> 00:08:31,647 That is different. 115 00:08:31,647 --> 00:08:36,267 I. So rituals always asking us that question, is this time different? 116 00:08:36,807 --> 00:08:40,137 And so when it comes to your question about, you know, you raised up post 117 00:08:40,137 --> 00:08:46,287 January 15th or whatever, whenever we entered into this chaos, um, the question 118 00:08:46,287 --> 00:08:48,777 is, is the time, is this time different? 119 00:08:49,677 --> 00:08:54,807 And if so, what different skills and different communications and different 120 00:08:54,807 --> 00:09:00,747 awareness and different speeds are needed from us in this different landscape? 121 00:09:01,497 --> 00:09:05,037 So instead of me answering the question, I'm doing something that's very 122 00:09:05,277 --> 00:09:10,107 enculturated for me, which is to an ask your question with a question and ask 123 00:09:10,107 --> 00:09:11,787 like, I don't know, what do you think? 124 00:09:11,787 --> 00:09:14,577 Like, I'm not here with answers, but I'm here with curiosity. 125 00:09:15,057 --> 00:09:16,017 Is this time different? 126 00:09:19,212 --> 00:09:23,172 There's, there's so much in that response Day. 127 00:09:23,682 --> 00:09:26,712 Um, and I, I wanna respond to a sorry and You're welcome. 128 00:09:26,982 --> 00:09:27,852 No, I love it. 129 00:09:27,852 --> 00:09:28,482 Thank you. 130 00:09:28,482 --> 00:09:33,702 Um, I wanna acknowledge, like, I feel a huge amount of emotion from the 131 00:09:33,702 --> 00:09:36,132 description of that art installation. 132 00:09:36,132 --> 00:09:38,352 I'm also Jewish, I can't remember if we talked about this. 133 00:09:38,382 --> 00:09:38,802 I didn't know that. 134 00:09:39,012 --> 00:09:43,812 Um, and that I can feel the power in. 135 00:09:44,967 --> 00:09:50,727 In what you described and, um, imposing the questions. 136 00:09:51,627 --> 00:09:52,617 So thank you for that. 137 00:09:52,617 --> 00:09:54,597 And I'm like, I'm the clamped. 138 00:09:54,927 --> 00:09:57,357 Um, and 139 00:10:00,117 --> 00:10:01,587 is this time different? 140 00:10:02,067 --> 00:10:08,667 You know, I, I don't have answers and I'll tell you what I feel is that. 141 00:10:10,047 --> 00:10:11,727 Well, can I, can I stop you there? 142 00:10:11,727 --> 00:10:12,117 Do you mind? 143 00:10:12,117 --> 00:10:12,237 Yeah, 144 00:10:12,507 --> 00:10:12,777 sure. 145 00:10:13,047 --> 00:10:13,737 Please. 146 00:10:14,337 --> 00:10:21,777 Because what you just said is, instead of that being almost like a road bump 147 00:10:21,867 --> 00:10:22,167 mm-hmm. 148 00:10:22,407 --> 00:10:22,647 Which I 149 00:10:22,647 --> 00:10:27,027 think maybe was intentional, I would ask you to consider 150 00:10:27,117 --> 00:10:29,307 that as a navigational system 151 00:10:29,607 --> 00:10:29,937 for 152 00:10:29,937 --> 00:10:30,747 the times. 153 00:10:30,837 --> 00:10:31,257 Mm-hmm. 154 00:10:31,617 --> 00:10:34,227 Meaning I don't have answers. 155 00:10:35,097 --> 00:10:35,367 Right. 156 00:10:35,367 --> 00:10:38,697 Instead of like, unfortunately, I don't have the answer for you. 157 00:10:39,057 --> 00:10:45,207 Could it be that that is actually what should guide us because there's 158 00:10:45,207 --> 00:10:48,687 10,000 answers around us every day. 159 00:10:48,822 --> 00:10:55,212 Yes, and opinions and certainties and I know what's right and I know what, right. 160 00:10:55,212 --> 00:10:57,852 And like so little curiosity. 161 00:10:58,362 --> 00:11:00,012 So little nuance. 162 00:11:00,012 --> 00:11:04,272 So little willingness to say, I don't know, let's wonder about this together. 163 00:11:04,902 --> 00:11:10,212 So instead of that being the road bump, could that be the Yeah, 164 00:11:10,247 --> 00:11:11,862 no, I don't have answers either. 165 00:11:12,222 --> 00:11:16,422 But isn't it something to wonder about that this time could be different. 166 00:11:17,082 --> 00:11:17,352 Right. 167 00:11:17,352 --> 00:11:18,792 Isn't that something to wonder about? 168 00:11:18,792 --> 00:11:21,732 And if so, what does that mean for us? 169 00:11:21,732 --> 00:11:27,612 And so I just, I would like to just pull the thread through, especially for those 170 00:11:27,612 --> 00:11:33,312 that are listening and, and suggest that in these times, and especially if we are 171 00:11:33,312 --> 00:11:38,982 entering into new Times, which is the landscape or ritual, could it be that. 172 00:11:39,372 --> 00:11:43,632 Wonder, curiosity, awe, humility. 173 00:11:43,932 --> 00:11:46,152 Those are the skills of these times. 174 00:11:46,512 --> 00:11:51,432 Not more certainty, not more opinion, not more hardening of 175 00:11:51,432 --> 00:11:54,162 our hearts, not more polarization. 176 00:11:54,522 --> 00:11:58,962 You know, can we resist the urge on social media and in our communities and 177 00:11:58,962 --> 00:12:05,412 families to be on a quote unquote side because it's safer in that way, and can 178 00:12:05,412 --> 00:12:07,752 we create more landscape for wonder? 179 00:12:09,927 --> 00:12:10,347 Day. 180 00:12:10,347 --> 00:12:16,347 I, um, I recently read, uh, one of a million lists that are out there 181 00:12:16,347 --> 00:12:20,817 right now about ways of taking care of ourselves or ways of resisting. 182 00:12:20,817 --> 00:12:22,737 There's all these lists everywhere, okay. 183 00:12:23,067 --> 00:12:26,607 Most of which have some lovely things and a lot of repetition. 184 00:12:26,607 --> 00:12:30,657 Uh, but there was this one that really stuck with me and it, I'm 185 00:12:30,657 --> 00:12:34,497 thinking of it as you're talking, and one of the points on the list was. 186 00:12:35,772 --> 00:12:41,262 To create a folder, whether on your phone or physical and name it way points, and 187 00:12:41,262 --> 00:12:44,082 put things in it that help you navigate. 188 00:12:44,112 --> 00:12:46,752 Mm. And I loved that invitation. 189 00:12:46,752 --> 00:12:46,842 Mm-hmm. 190 00:12:46,872 --> 00:12:47,352 So much. 191 00:12:47,352 --> 00:12:49,662 And I feel a little bit of that as you're talking. 192 00:12:49,662 --> 00:12:51,042 It was just it. 193 00:12:51,042 --> 00:12:53,562 It's not a map with like, here's the straight line and you're 194 00:12:53,562 --> 00:12:55,932 gonna go right here and know exactly where you're gonna end up. 195 00:12:55,932 --> 00:12:59,682 But can we start to gather pieces that help us find our way? 196 00:12:59,717 --> 00:13:00,687 Yeah, exactly. 197 00:13:00,797 --> 00:13:01,087 Yeah. 198 00:13:01,452 --> 00:13:01,692 Yeah. 199 00:13:01,692 --> 00:13:03,462 Help us find, I mean, even. 200 00:13:05,022 --> 00:13:05,862 That's wonderful. 201 00:13:05,862 --> 00:13:07,572 I wanna just period. 202 00:13:07,632 --> 00:13:08,232 That's great. 203 00:13:08,532 --> 00:13:17,562 And I write and teach quite a bit about the spell of destination addiction. 204 00:13:17,712 --> 00:13:17,952 Mm-hmm. 205 00:13:18,642 --> 00:13:24,072 And that, you know, my, the, the modality that I teach morning altars, it's 206 00:13:24,132 --> 00:13:26,502 the first step is wonder and wander. 207 00:13:27,717 --> 00:13:32,337 So it's about kind of stepping out of the need for answers, stepping out 208 00:13:32,337 --> 00:13:37,257 of the need for destination, allowing ourselves to meander both in conversation 209 00:13:37,257 --> 00:13:39,207 and with our bodies physically. 210 00:13:39,597 --> 00:13:45,627 And exercise the muscle of not knowing, not from a place of a problem, but from 211 00:13:45,627 --> 00:13:53,037 a place of exploration, discovery, um, relationships, like all of these things. 212 00:13:53,037 --> 00:13:56,367 And so, you know, Navi, my. 213 00:13:57,552 --> 00:14:08,502 My almost allergy to talks of navigations is that there's a, there. 214 00:14:08,502 --> 00:14:08,892 There. 215 00:14:09,312 --> 00:14:09,642 Hmm. 216 00:14:10,602 --> 00:14:15,132 That there's like someplace we're trying to get to, trying to get back to 217 00:14:15,162 --> 00:14:21,672 maybe even, and I think that's a very problematic perspective Now, navigational 218 00:14:21,672 --> 00:14:25,272 systems, that's the language I used before when I talked about curiosity. 219 00:14:25,272 --> 00:14:29,112 Like, yes, we do need to know how to move through the times that 220 00:14:29,112 --> 00:14:36,942 we're in, as long as there isn't a deep hope that we get there. 221 00:14:37,242 --> 00:14:37,302 Yeah. 222 00:14:38,382 --> 00:14:43,722 Because that's where people really underneath, they're like, they 223 00:14:43,722 --> 00:14:46,362 just wanna hurry this pro part up. 224 00:14:47,382 --> 00:14:49,122 They just wanna get through the hard part. 225 00:14:49,122 --> 00:14:53,352 Mm. So we can get to the thing that we really want to get to. 226 00:14:54,222 --> 00:14:54,492 Right. 227 00:14:54,492 --> 00:14:57,282 And that's where it be, can become dangerous. 228 00:14:57,702 --> 00:15:02,682 And so the skills, the navigational skills and from a ritualistic 229 00:15:02,682 --> 00:15:05,982 standpoint are slowing down. 230 00:15:07,362 --> 00:15:13,602 Right, we're entering into something else, um, inventorying and letting go. 231 00:15:13,632 --> 00:15:14,442 What is needed? 232 00:15:15,252 --> 00:15:17,622 Do I need to carry this mindset with me? 233 00:15:17,622 --> 00:15:20,232 Do I need to carry the, these relationships? 234 00:15:20,382 --> 00:15:22,632 I don't know, do I need to have me on social media? 235 00:15:22,632 --> 00:15:26,802 All the, just getting a sense of inventory of what's needed, um, 236 00:15:26,832 --> 00:15:28,992 asking fundamental questions. 237 00:15:30,042 --> 00:15:33,792 That you think you know the answers to, but resurrecting those questions. 238 00:15:34,692 --> 00:15:40,662 Um, so these are the, these are my navigational systems when it 239 00:15:40,662 --> 00:15:47,082 comes to entering into moments of transition and transition, the most 240 00:15:47,082 --> 00:15:49,422 important thing around transitions. 241 00:15:49,422 --> 00:15:52,602 And this is so easy and so hard at the same time. 242 00:15:53,442 --> 00:15:56,292 Is that the first thing? 243 00:15:56,322 --> 00:15:57,792 First and last thing? 244 00:15:58,992 --> 00:16:02,592 The question you should be asking is, am I in a transition? 245 00:16:05,052 --> 00:16:09,132 Because if you, if you don't ask the question, more often than not, you 246 00:16:09,132 --> 00:16:13,122 assume you're, you're through it, right? 247 00:16:13,152 --> 00:16:15,102 Or you're, or you haven't entered into it. 248 00:16:15,522 --> 00:16:19,182 But if we can keep asking like, are we still in the transition? 249 00:16:19,212 --> 00:16:24,072 Are we still in an in-between space that can help inform us of 250 00:16:24,642 --> 00:16:26,442 these other skills that are needed? 251 00:16:27,417 --> 00:16:27,627 Hmm. 252 00:16:27,717 --> 00:16:27,837 So 253 00:16:27,837 --> 00:16:31,767 we have to keep on asking that without fear and without a hope 254 00:16:31,767 --> 00:16:34,677 that we're through it, you know? 255 00:16:34,677 --> 00:16:40,437 And in some ways it cult, it's a cultivation of a skill of 256 00:16:40,437 --> 00:16:42,597 tolerance for uncertainty. 257 00:16:43,017 --> 00:16:43,317 Hmm. 258 00:16:44,457 --> 00:16:44,697 Right. 259 00:16:44,697 --> 00:16:46,167 And that's what's needed right now. 260 00:16:47,037 --> 00:16:47,457 Yeah. 261 00:16:48,057 --> 00:16:48,207 Yeah. 262 00:16:48,417 --> 00:16:49,947 I, um. 263 00:16:51,177 --> 00:16:56,187 When I talk about meditation often, what I talk about is that this practice of, of 264 00:16:56,187 --> 00:17:00,927 being still and being with yourself as it is in the moment, it's this practice of 265 00:17:00,927 --> 00:17:06,207 building a tolerance for the truth of what we're experiencing in any given moment. 266 00:17:06,207 --> 00:17:09,477 So I think that's a really interesting overlap. 267 00:17:09,507 --> 00:17:09,567 Yeah. 268 00:17:09,567 --> 00:17:16,917 And then I, I want you to talk a little bit more about what it means to, um. 269 00:17:18,147 --> 00:17:23,067 Incorporate, I, I, I think I wanna use the word incorporate ritual into 270 00:17:23,667 --> 00:17:26,967 these transitional moments when it's not, you know, it's interesting because 271 00:17:26,967 --> 00:17:33,057 to say a transition like I'm 40 and I'm becoming 41, is a very defined 272 00:17:33,057 --> 00:17:37,737 transition, and what we're talking about is not a defined amount of time. 273 00:17:37,947 --> 00:17:40,077 And so what does that look like to bring? 274 00:17:40,257 --> 00:17:41,997 But not all of them. 275 00:17:41,997 --> 00:17:42,222 Not all of them are. 276 00:17:42,452 --> 00:17:42,742 Yeah. 277 00:17:42,762 --> 00:17:46,737 For instance, like, I'll give you a, I mean, a really. 278 00:17:47,292 --> 00:17:52,242 Complicated transition that I'm in, but I can simplify it with another example. 279 00:17:52,242 --> 00:17:56,952 But, you know, my mother's had dementia now for six years, seven years. 280 00:17:58,062 --> 00:18:07,242 Um, she's been slowly losing her mind and, you know, are we still in this? 281 00:18:07,902 --> 00:18:12,732 It's very unclear where we are with my mom right now. 282 00:18:12,912 --> 00:18:15,162 You know, like, yes, we're still in dementia. 283 00:18:15,162 --> 00:18:15,372 Yes. 284 00:18:15,372 --> 00:18:16,212 She's still alive. 285 00:18:16,212 --> 00:18:20,142 Is she still my, my, is she still the mother I knew? 286 00:18:20,142 --> 00:18:21,222 Not really. 287 00:18:21,732 --> 00:18:25,572 You know, there's a lot of uncertainty inside of this transition. 288 00:18:25,572 --> 00:18:30,612 The same thing, by the way, when my father died, like when, like did 289 00:18:31,182 --> 00:18:34,722 the transition of my father's death, did that end the moment he died? 290 00:18:34,722 --> 00:18:36,162 Did that end after the funeral? 291 00:18:36,192 --> 00:18:37,002 Did that end? 292 00:18:37,827 --> 00:18:41,397 A week later, a month later, a year later, am I still in 293 00:18:41,397 --> 00:18:44,007 my father's death transition? 294 00:18:44,157 --> 00:18:51,597 Sometimes I am, you know, and so, um, not all, and most actually I would say 295 00:18:52,017 --> 00:18:55,677 are not clearly defined transitional. 296 00:18:55,707 --> 00:18:56,937 I'm in it, I'm out of it. 297 00:18:57,912 --> 00:19:03,552 And so much of my work, I just taught a New Year's workshop, um, in January 298 00:19:04,152 --> 00:19:06,012 every, we did it for four weeks. 299 00:19:06,072 --> 00:19:10,482 Every time we gathered, I asked one simple question, are we still in the new year? 300 00:19:11,502 --> 00:19:16,362 Because the workshop went into February, you know, and it's like, 301 00:19:16,362 --> 00:19:22,602 if we are still in the new year, then certain things are available to us. 302 00:19:24,462 --> 00:19:25,452 And if we're not. 303 00:19:26,562 --> 00:19:31,122 We're in the year and we can't be in the, the, you know, the transitional 304 00:19:31,122 --> 00:19:32,892 moments where things are still malleable. 305 00:19:33,942 --> 00:19:41,352 And so a lot of my work when it comes to ritual and transitions is asking 306 00:19:41,352 --> 00:19:47,652 people to consider softening the boundary of when it started and when it 307 00:19:47,712 --> 00:19:52,452 ends, and therefore not being so sure. 308 00:19:53,562 --> 00:19:56,022 And staying curious, am I still in this? 309 00:19:56,022 --> 00:20:03,072 And it gives so much more space and permission, um, than otherwise, 310 00:20:03,072 --> 00:20:05,862 than, oh, I need to know the answers, or I need to know where I am, 311 00:20:05,862 --> 00:20:07,332 or I need to know what, this is. 312 00:20:07,332 --> 00:20:08,472 One more example. 313 00:20:08,772 --> 00:20:13,302 Um, my best friend who I've known now for 30 years, I helped her, I introduced 314 00:20:13,307 --> 00:20:15,312 her to her husband 29 years ago. 315 00:20:15,702 --> 00:20:18,342 I helped her get divorced two years ago. 316 00:20:19,197 --> 00:20:21,807 And she's two years out of her divorce from him. 317 00:20:22,377 --> 00:20:26,607 And she's still very much in the question of who is he to me? 318 00:20:27,717 --> 00:20:28,017 Right? 319 00:20:28,167 --> 00:20:30,837 The transition from the divorce that didn't end when they 320 00:20:30,837 --> 00:20:32,367 separated, that didn't end. 321 00:20:32,367 --> 00:20:36,327 When, you know, they got divorce papers, they still have two kids together. 322 00:20:36,327 --> 00:20:39,897 Like she's still in that consideration. 323 00:20:40,377 --> 00:20:44,997 And so, and a lot of that is coming from me, like saying, don't be so convinced 324 00:20:45,297 --> 00:20:46,737 that you're on the other side of this. 325 00:20:47,337 --> 00:20:47,637 Hmm. 326 00:20:48,492 --> 00:20:54,762 You know, and so ritual helps us mark transitions so that we 327 00:20:54,762 --> 00:21:03,312 can be in the interstitial in between fuzzy, unknown, hazy. 328 00:21:03,672 --> 00:21:05,502 I don't need to know, I'm dreaming. 329 00:21:05,502 --> 00:21:10,632 This is like, I'm, I'm kind of in the, you know, just in that stumbles 330 00:21:11,352 --> 00:21:16,332 of the in-between space that has a place, but it doesn't when we 331 00:21:16,332 --> 00:21:17,377 think we should be out of it. 332 00:21:18,237 --> 00:21:18,507 So the 333 00:21:18,507 --> 00:21:23,247 ritual marks a boundary so we can allow ourselves to be 334 00:21:23,427 --> 00:21:25,617 properly in the in-between. 335 00:21:27,417 --> 00:21:34,497 So can you share with us an example of a ritual that comes to mind for you, 336 00:21:34,977 --> 00:21:41,187 um, to, to, to create that sense of softening and lingering in the space. 337 00:21:42,852 --> 00:21:43,962 Um, sure. 338 00:21:44,202 --> 00:21:47,292 Yeah, there are ritual. 339 00:21:47,322 --> 00:21:48,942 Let's see what comes to mind now. 340 00:21:49,062 --> 00:21:55,992 Um, I mean, I was thinking I was, I gave you the example of the nighttime 341 00:21:55,992 --> 00:21:59,682 ritual, but I think I'd like to give you a better example of something that 342 00:22:00,282 --> 00:22:04,122 allows us to be in that in-between space. 343 00:22:04,482 --> 00:22:05,202 Um, 344 00:22:07,207 --> 00:22:07,452 let me think. 345 00:22:07,452 --> 00:22:07,482 I. 346 00:22:10,872 --> 00:22:16,062 There's a ritual for death anniversaries. 347 00:22:17,142 --> 00:22:27,132 Um, I wrote about one in my book specifically for pets, and there is 348 00:22:27,282 --> 00:22:37,242 a time in the year when my last dog, when I put her down and, um, and the. 349 00:22:37,872 --> 00:22:42,012 The ritual that I do, that I, well, so when I put her down, I did a ritual 350 00:22:42,012 --> 00:22:51,402 where I actually took her leash and I cut it and I wore it for a year. 351 00:22:52,332 --> 00:22:58,967 And the reason I did that is because I was inspired by my own cultures, um, rendering 352 00:22:59,027 --> 00:23:01,752 of garments when there's a death. 353 00:23:02,742 --> 00:23:04,092 And we do. 354 00:23:04,302 --> 00:23:05,922 In my culture, we do. 355 00:23:05,982 --> 00:23:11,832 Um, and in your culture, our culture, we do, I think death pretty well. 356 00:23:12,792 --> 00:23:17,622 We don't do dying well at all, but when it comes to death, it's very human centric. 357 00:23:18,162 --> 00:23:22,362 We don't really have a lot of tradition or guidance around animals. 358 00:23:23,442 --> 00:23:28,812 And so when I put my dog down, my last dog down, um. 359 00:23:29,727 --> 00:23:34,077 There was nothing really to do, but it was like the most heartbreaking transition I 360 00:23:34,077 --> 00:23:36,417 had been in, definitely since my father. 361 00:23:37,437 --> 00:23:41,037 Um, and so I knew, I, I knew I wanted to do something. 362 00:23:41,097 --> 00:23:43,977 I knew I was in this in-between space. 363 00:23:44,037 --> 00:23:47,277 I was grieving, I was missing her. 364 00:23:47,277 --> 00:23:54,477 I was, um, I was like really in a hard place with that 365 00:23:54,837 --> 00:23:56,397 death, with this little one. 366 00:23:57,027 --> 00:24:01,602 And so, um, I. In the spirit of rendering garments, I took her leash, which as 367 00:24:01,602 --> 00:24:03,702 soon as she died, had no purpose to it. 368 00:24:04,332 --> 00:24:05,202 Mm-hmm. 369 00:24:05,207 --> 00:24:10,692 And I cut off the part with the little clip, and I wore that clip with a little 370 00:24:10,692 --> 00:24:13,602 bit of her leash on my jacket for a year. 371 00:24:14,802 --> 00:24:16,152 What did that do? 372 00:24:16,242 --> 00:24:21,642 What did that mark, going back to your question, so the first thing it did 373 00:24:21,672 --> 00:24:25,602 was it reminded me that I was grieving. 374 00:24:27,822 --> 00:24:33,102 So for a year, I gave myself a year 'cause I loved her so much for a year to grieve. 375 00:24:33,822 --> 00:24:35,652 Why did I need a reminder? 376 00:24:37,002 --> 00:24:40,692 Because it's very easy to get seduced by everyday life. 377 00:24:42,417 --> 00:24:48,117 Worth the to-do lists and the, you know, and meetings and taxes and 378 00:24:48,117 --> 00:24:53,847 emails and you know, like helping, um, repairing things in my household, 379 00:24:53,847 --> 00:24:58,317 helping with my community, like it's very easy to leave that space of grief. 380 00:24:58,647 --> 00:25:06,867 Wearing this leash reminded me I am still very much in an in-between space. 381 00:25:07,257 --> 00:25:08,127 I'm grieving. 382 00:25:08,517 --> 00:25:09,897 I don't know how to be social. 383 00:25:09,897 --> 00:25:11,307 Some of the time I don't. 384 00:25:11,637 --> 00:25:14,127 Some of the time things are messy and that's okay. 385 00:25:14,757 --> 00:25:15,117 Right? 386 00:25:15,837 --> 00:25:17,487 But what else does that do? 387 00:25:18,027 --> 00:25:24,417 Wearing the leash, it also is a rec, it can be after some con 388 00:25:24,417 --> 00:25:29,247 conversation, but it can be an identifiable thing to someone else. 389 00:25:30,327 --> 00:25:33,057 So I've been in more than one situation where someone would come up 390 00:25:33,057 --> 00:25:34,497 to me and say, what are you wearing? 391 00:25:36,582 --> 00:25:42,312 What that question does is it lets me a remind myself that I'm grieving, um, in 392 00:25:42,312 --> 00:25:44,562 between that, in that interstitial space. 393 00:25:44,772 --> 00:25:50,802 Number two, it informs them of where I am so they can relate to me differently. 394 00:25:51,492 --> 00:25:54,522 And then the third thing it does is it gives me an opportunity to remember my 395 00:25:54,522 --> 00:25:59,382 beloved right to tell her story and to. 396 00:25:59,787 --> 00:26:04,947 That is the, that is really, really, really important in the space of grief is 397 00:26:04,947 --> 00:26:06,867 to be witnessed and to tell our stories. 398 00:26:07,347 --> 00:26:10,497 So just to going back to your question, 'cause it took me a second to be like, 399 00:26:10,497 --> 00:26:12,087 what am I, what do I wanna share? 400 00:26:12,447 --> 00:26:19,137 You know, the markings help us identify boundaries so that we can 401 00:26:19,137 --> 00:26:24,057 allow ourselves to be properly in this space, in the in-between space. 402 00:26:24,357 --> 00:26:27,117 And so that leash example is a like a really. 403 00:26:27,777 --> 00:26:29,457 Beautiful boundary marker. 404 00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:31,137 So beautiful. 405 00:26:32,397 --> 00:26:35,547 And you know, Day, I'm so grateful for this conversation. 406 00:26:35,607 --> 00:26:36,387 Thank you. 407 00:26:36,837 --> 00:26:40,737 And I don't know that I would've necessarily been able to articulate this 408 00:26:41,037 --> 00:26:46,857 until this moment, but I'm realizing, and I'm voicing what I was believing 409 00:26:46,857 --> 00:26:50,517 because maybe there are other listeners who have been thinking in the same way. 410 00:26:50,517 --> 00:26:54,987 I have, I have realized that I have been looking at. 411 00:26:56,232 --> 00:26:58,452 Ritual as an end marker. 412 00:26:59,082 --> 00:27:06,492 Ah, and not as, uh, in that example you gave, I could completely feel the 413 00:27:06,492 --> 00:27:12,432 space that that allowed and it was not a, I'm gonna do this thing to say that 414 00:27:12,432 --> 00:27:15,312 now I am done grieving and moving on. 415 00:27:15,312 --> 00:27:15,672 Right. 416 00:27:16,302 --> 00:27:16,932 And. 417 00:27:18,072 --> 00:27:20,112 That's such a huge shift. 418 00:27:20,142 --> 00:27:26,472 I can feel how different it feels to think about ritual allowing us to hold 419 00:27:26,472 --> 00:27:29,262 a broader space versus Mark the end. 420 00:27:30,282 --> 00:27:32,322 Something and the start of something new. 421 00:27:32,562 --> 00:27:34,062 Mm-hmm. 422 00:27:34,063 --> 00:27:39,822 Um, this and that feels unbelievably important for where we are right now. 423 00:27:40,692 --> 00:27:41,202 Mm-hmm. 424 00:27:41,442 --> 00:27:41,443 Mm-hmm. 425 00:27:41,449 --> 00:27:41,587 Yeah. 426 00:27:41,897 --> 00:27:42,187 Yeah. 427 00:27:42,402 --> 00:27:45,252 It's a, it, it is the book ends of a container. 428 00:27:45,492 --> 00:27:45,582 Mm-hmm. 429 00:27:45,612 --> 00:27:50,772 And it's a, um, you know, this is a quote from. 430 00:27:51,167 --> 00:27:54,287 Uh, rabbi Joshua Heschel referring to the Sabbath, but I 431 00:27:54,287 --> 00:27:56,087 think it's applicable here too. 432 00:27:56,177 --> 00:28:01,157 He calls the Sabbath, but I'm calling ritual space an island in time, right? 433 00:28:01,157 --> 00:28:08,627 It's a, it is just a temporary island that we can stand on in the midst of 434 00:28:08,747 --> 00:28:14,447 an ocean of uncertainty, but it gives us a place to stand temporarily so that 435 00:28:14,447 --> 00:28:18,737 we can be as we are, you know, rest. 436 00:28:19,302 --> 00:28:24,492 Slow down, make meaning, find beauty, connection, be witnessed, all of 437 00:28:24,492 --> 00:28:29,202 the things that these in-between spaces need of us, but they create 438 00:28:29,202 --> 00:28:35,052 these temporary sacred spaces, pardon the popular term these days, 439 00:28:35,052 --> 00:28:38,322 unfortunately, but it creates an island. 440 00:28:39,297 --> 00:28:42,657 Time and the island is timelessness. 441 00:28:42,867 --> 00:28:44,607 That is what the island is. 442 00:28:44,877 --> 00:28:50,187 When we're grieving or celebrating, or when there's things changing, we 443 00:28:50,187 --> 00:28:56,727 need to step out of some of it a lot of the time so we can make sense of 444 00:28:56,727 --> 00:28:59,547 things that don't make sense, right? 445 00:28:59,607 --> 00:29:01,377 We need those reprises. 446 00:29:01,707 --> 00:29:06,447 We can't just carry on with every day and make sense of what's happening. 447 00:29:07,462 --> 00:29:07,752 Yeah. 448 00:29:07,827 --> 00:29:07,977 So 449 00:29:07,977 --> 00:29:15,597 we need to have these little or sometimes big spaces where we can get lost, not 450 00:29:15,597 --> 00:29:19,827 know, dream, wander, play, experience. 451 00:29:20,007 --> 00:29:26,247 All of the things feel so that when we move th from that temporary 452 00:29:26,247 --> 00:29:30,477 island in time, back into time, we can carry more understanding and 453 00:29:30,477 --> 00:29:34,347 more meaning with us, and that can help us move through what we're in. 454 00:29:36,747 --> 00:29:46,257 How would you guide listeners to, because what I'm sensing is, um, 455 00:29:48,717 --> 00:29:51,807 and maybe I'm wrong, so correct me if I'm wrong please, but I, I'm sort of 456 00:29:51,807 --> 00:29:54,957 feeling like this invitation is also. 457 00:29:55,587 --> 00:30:01,617 An invitation for the individual to create what is needed in that ritual. 458 00:30:01,737 --> 00:30:02,607 Is that right? 459 00:30:02,607 --> 00:30:07,167 And if so, how would you guide us to create something that feels. 460 00:30:09,177 --> 00:30:10,197 Like that container? 461 00:30:10,587 --> 00:30:14,697 Well, I guess the question, it's, it's, it's not wrong. 462 00:30:14,697 --> 00:30:16,677 You asked me if you're asking the wrong question. 463 00:30:16,677 --> 00:30:22,497 I think, I think the question itself has a bit of a destination to it. 464 00:30:22,497 --> 00:30:22,557 Hmm. 465 00:30:23,307 --> 00:30:28,377 Um, and, you know, look, let me back up and say when, when we're 466 00:30:28,377 --> 00:30:34,137 talking about ritual, um, it's really important to recognize that 467 00:30:35,097 --> 00:30:36,897 most don't get off the ground. 468 00:30:38,172 --> 00:30:41,802 Just because there is a ritual, it doesn't necessarily mean it's meaningful. 469 00:30:41,802 --> 00:30:45,492 I've been in my fair share of people creating rituals where 470 00:30:45,492 --> 00:30:46,872 I'm like, what is happening here? 471 00:30:46,872 --> 00:30:50,262 I don't understand, or I don't want to be here, or whatever it is. 472 00:30:50,262 --> 00:30:56,412 It doesn't, just because it's made doesn't mean it, it, I. There's liftoff, um, 473 00:30:57,312 --> 00:31:05,262 rituals are really created and or passed down because they respond profoundly 474 00:31:05,262 --> 00:31:09,342 to the moment and the needs of the moment and the needs of the people. 475 00:31:10,062 --> 00:31:14,742 So when it comes to crafting a ritual rather than me, I. Trying to 476 00:31:14,742 --> 00:31:19,932 make up something now that would be meaningful to, I don't know, 10,000 477 00:31:19,932 --> 00:31:23,922 listeners or however many people are listening to this conversation. 478 00:31:24,252 --> 00:31:30,702 Um, I would much rather speak to the capacity to make ritual rather than the 479 00:31:30,702 --> 00:31:35,292 ritual itself, because it's the same thing as like cooking, you know, like. 480 00:31:35,612 --> 00:31:39,872 My interest and going back to the email that I sent you about, you 481 00:31:39,872 --> 00:31:43,202 know, I mean, the essence of the email I sent you was like, we need 482 00:31:43,202 --> 00:31:44,912 a ritual renaissance in the culture. 483 00:31:44,912 --> 00:31:50,012 We need to really become better practitioners of rituals so that we 484 00:31:50,012 --> 00:31:55,622 can navigate these times that we're in and both personally and collectively. 485 00:31:55,622 --> 00:32:00,242 The thing is, is that how do we n how do we become, um. 486 00:32:00,642 --> 00:32:02,682 How do we participate in the ritual renaissance? 487 00:32:03,042 --> 00:32:08,862 We have to learn how to craft our own rituals, not just the ones that are 488 00:32:08,862 --> 00:32:12,762 passed down, although those are important, but some of them need to be reinvented. 489 00:32:12,762 --> 00:32:16,512 As I told you from my Passover Seder story, like I wanted to reinvent 490 00:32:17,202 --> 00:32:21,912 a old ritual object, but the thing is, when, when, why do we need to 491 00:32:22,362 --> 00:32:23,892 learn how to craft our own rituals? 492 00:32:23,922 --> 00:32:25,122 It's the same thing as cooking. 493 00:32:25,602 --> 00:32:26,507 When we learn how to. 494 00:32:26,962 --> 00:32:28,552 Cook, even scrambled eggs. 495 00:32:28,552 --> 00:32:31,672 We can feed ourselves, we can nourish ourselves. 496 00:32:32,122 --> 00:32:34,132 We're not dependent on other people to do it. 497 00:32:35,152 --> 00:32:36,652 Same thing with ritual. 498 00:32:36,652 --> 00:32:40,972 When, and when I say ritual, I mean making meaning, right? 499 00:32:40,972 --> 00:32:45,472 So how do we make meaning with our personal lives or our collective lives? 500 00:32:45,772 --> 00:32:53,452 We have to attempt to make something small at first, not fancy, not based 501 00:32:53,452 --> 00:32:55,642 on other people's cultures or customs. 502 00:32:55,642 --> 00:32:58,557 I. Something deeply important to us. 503 00:32:59,427 --> 00:33:00,687 And how do we do that? 504 00:33:00,867 --> 00:33:04,467 By exercising a capacity to be creative. 505 00:33:05,697 --> 00:33:09,747 What lies at the heart of ritual is imagination, right? 506 00:33:09,747 --> 00:33:11,907 We're in the realm of symbols. 507 00:33:12,537 --> 00:33:14,337 We're in the realm of metaphors. 508 00:33:15,117 --> 00:33:20,067 We're in the realm of things that are not utilitarian or rational, 509 00:33:20,277 --> 00:33:24,777 but that are meaningful because we, 'cause they mean something to us. 510 00:33:25,752 --> 00:33:30,012 So the question is like, what's little things that are meaningful to you? 511 00:33:30,012 --> 00:33:33,612 Like for instance, that ribbon example, I'm, that leash 512 00:33:33,642 --> 00:33:35,112 was deeply meaningful to me. 513 00:33:35,142 --> 00:33:39,342 Throwing it away was like an assault on my love of my dog. 514 00:33:39,372 --> 00:33:43,482 I was, I held that leash every day for 16 years, twice a day on dog walks. 515 00:33:44,322 --> 00:33:50,382 And I knew I wanted to wear something that would be meaningful to me. 516 00:33:50,382 --> 00:33:56,532 So I. Just thought, how can I reinvent the leash, right? 517 00:33:56,532 --> 00:34:00,342 And so I cut it and I wore it, and it's very simple, but it's deeply meaningful. 518 00:34:00,552 --> 00:34:04,722 But that might not be meaningful to like 99% of your listeners. 519 00:34:05,892 --> 00:34:08,802 But the question is, well then what's meaningful to you? 520 00:34:10,182 --> 00:34:10,482 Right? 521 00:34:10,487 --> 00:34:11,227 And, and so. 522 00:34:12,147 --> 00:34:19,347 There is a need to try things out and to imagine and to not get so stuck 523 00:34:19,347 --> 00:34:23,757 on things being, you know, right or done according to blah, blah, blah. 524 00:34:23,787 --> 00:34:29,007 But to me, speaking to you as an artist as well, like imagination has 525 00:34:29,007 --> 00:34:37,287 a role to play in ritual and, but so does, um, the need to make it. 526 00:34:37,647 --> 00:34:39,327 Meaningful to you. 527 00:34:40,047 --> 00:34:40,227 Right. 528 00:34:40,227 --> 00:34:42,627 So that's why I'm not prescribing something here. 529 00:34:42,627 --> 00:34:46,617 I'm describing something, but I'm, but the be the better lane, that 530 00:34:46,617 --> 00:34:53,037 I'm way more inspired by to pass on is imagination and creativity here. 531 00:34:54,117 --> 00:34:54,777 I love that. 532 00:34:54,777 --> 00:34:55,437 Thank you. 533 00:34:55,617 --> 00:34:56,037 Yeah. 534 00:34:57,387 --> 00:34:57,537 Yeah. 535 00:34:58,587 --> 00:35:03,357 De I, um, you know what we didn't talk about, which I feel very remiss in not 536 00:35:03,357 --> 00:35:07,197 discussing hardly at all, so we should do it before we end, is we have not talked 537 00:35:07,197 --> 00:35:14,007 about nature, which is very present in both of our, both of our works. 538 00:35:14,607 --> 00:35:18,957 Um, and I wanna just weave that in as we sort of tie this conversation 539 00:35:18,957 --> 00:35:25,017 off is, um, and it's one of the places that I personally go. 540 00:35:26,157 --> 00:35:32,997 To create space for myself just to be, is to step outside, outside of the 541 00:35:32,997 --> 00:35:35,787 walls and the stuff and the demands. 542 00:35:36,327 --> 00:35:40,077 Um, and so may let's have a little bit of a conversation about how we 543 00:35:40,077 --> 00:35:45,867 might, um, bring our relationship to nature into this conversation of sort 544 00:35:45,867 --> 00:35:51,177 of slowing down, reconnecting, holding ourselves in this transitional space. 545 00:35:51,987 --> 00:35:59,577 Yeah, I mean, this is the preeminent relationship that 546 00:35:59,577 --> 00:36:02,427 we should be practicing daily. 547 00:36:03,297 --> 00:36:09,872 Um, especially those of us that either live in places with deep. 548 00:36:10,512 --> 00:36:16,302 Nature disconnection, which is most of us, um, especially those of us that are, 549 00:36:16,332 --> 00:36:20,652 where our ancestors have been ated from the places that they called home for 550 00:36:20,652 --> 00:36:22,992 hundreds of or if not thousands of years. 551 00:36:23,652 --> 00:36:28,572 Um, and especially if we're looking to find a way through, 552 00:36:29,082 --> 00:36:32,727 um, these times and, um, and. 553 00:36:33,627 --> 00:36:40,947 In that continue to cultivate a sense of peace and creativity and connection 554 00:36:41,007 --> 00:36:44,397 and resourcefulness and resilience. 555 00:36:45,207 --> 00:36:47,307 Um, this is the daily relationship. 556 00:36:47,877 --> 00:36:58,107 And so, um, yeah, I'd say my work is like the number one thing that I am teaching 557 00:36:58,137 --> 00:37:01,077 these days in my teacher trainings. 558 00:37:01,647 --> 00:37:09,672 Um, I. Is first and foremost cultivating a sense of relationship with the place, 559 00:37:09,672 --> 00:37:16,932 not from a place of certainty, but from a place of wonder and to the skills 560 00:37:16,932 --> 00:37:22,332 that we need to use to navigate the times that we're in right now, and I've 561 00:37:22,332 --> 00:37:24,552 named many throughout this conversation. 562 00:37:25,182 --> 00:37:30,912 Those are the skills to practice in relationship with the living world. 563 00:37:32,097 --> 00:37:38,127 So we get to exercise those skill sets outside and then we get to apply 564 00:37:38,127 --> 00:37:43,617 them to our culture, our society, our communities, our personal 565 00:37:43,617 --> 00:37:46,497 relationships, you know, and one of them. 566 00:37:46,557 --> 00:37:49,557 And you know, I'll, I'll name two, which is the heart and 567 00:37:49,557 --> 00:37:52,107 soul of my work in the world. 568 00:37:52,197 --> 00:37:52,287 Mm-hmm. 569 00:37:52,527 --> 00:37:54,237 Number one, the heart is wonder. 570 00:37:55,152 --> 00:38:00,972 So what does it mean to be in a, a state of deep, profound curiosity and 571 00:38:00,972 --> 00:38:06,582 re in relationship with the living world, and then apply that skill of 572 00:38:06,582 --> 00:38:12,042 curiosity to your partner, to your parents, to your children, to your 573 00:38:12,042 --> 00:38:14,142 boss, to your clients, et cetera. 574 00:38:14,742 --> 00:38:17,892 What does it mean to be in a state of childlike wonder of awe, of 575 00:38:18,282 --> 00:38:20,562 curiosity, of interest, of leaning in? 576 00:38:20,952 --> 00:38:21,612 That's number one. 577 00:38:22,497 --> 00:38:24,267 And that's the heart of my work. 578 00:38:24,837 --> 00:38:28,407 The soul of my work is what does it mean to be in relationship 579 00:38:28,407 --> 00:38:30,897 with impermanence, with change? 580 00:38:33,012 --> 00:38:37,422 Nature is the preeminent teacher for us of being in a relationship with change. 581 00:38:37,782 --> 00:38:40,782 Everything's moving, everything's changing all of the time. 582 00:38:41,082 --> 00:38:45,762 I've had my fair shares of encounters in nature where I want things to go a very 583 00:38:45,762 --> 00:38:50,112 different way, and it goes the complete opposite way than I prefer, and I have 584 00:38:50,112 --> 00:38:57,972 to wrestle with my own relationship to, um, preference to, um, to longevity. 585 00:38:59,022 --> 00:39:02,742 Um, to my resistance to change all of these things. 586 00:39:03,162 --> 00:39:06,822 And so the soul of my work, 'cause all of my work is really 587 00:39:06,822 --> 00:39:08,412 comes down to impermanence. 588 00:39:09,432 --> 00:39:11,382 How do we relate to change? 589 00:39:11,682 --> 00:39:17,562 And then I circle back to my first skill, which is wonder, right? 590 00:39:17,567 --> 00:39:24,192 We, we have to practice being in a wondrous relationship with change and. 591 00:39:24,567 --> 00:39:29,157 She, they what, however, gender you wanna call, the living world. 592 00:39:29,637 --> 00:39:36,987 The living world is the playground to practice wonder and to be in a 593 00:39:36,987 --> 00:39:39,357 wondrous relationship within permanence. 594 00:39:40,257 --> 00:39:41,727 So get outside 595 00:39:43,497 --> 00:39:47,907 Day, what incredible waypoints you've shared today. 596 00:39:48,087 --> 00:39:48,657 Thank you. 597 00:39:49,212 --> 00:39:51,492 This has been so rich. 598 00:39:51,792 --> 00:39:55,032 I wonder if there's anything I didn't ask you about that you really 599 00:39:55,692 --> 00:39:57,342 wanted to talk about or bring up? 600 00:39:58,212 --> 00:40:01,122 Um, that's a great question. 601 00:40:01,122 --> 00:40:10,962 I think, you know, I think in terms of my own personal, both gifts that and wound 602 00:40:11,502 --> 00:40:15,552 that I am wrestling with these days, um. 603 00:40:16,332 --> 00:40:20,202 I'm bringing this up because I wanna name it for myself, please. 604 00:40:20,202 --> 00:40:27,492 Is, um, in the midst of it all, how and when do we rest? 605 00:40:30,222 --> 00:40:35,562 And rest is a really important part of this work. 606 00:40:36,102 --> 00:40:43,812 Um, it's really important part of, um, resilience and law and, um. 607 00:40:44,967 --> 00:40:49,107 It's a really important part of, of like keeping our humanity. 608 00:40:50,217 --> 00:40:56,337 Um, and it's something I struggle with because I'm so, um, impassioned 609 00:40:56,337 --> 00:41:02,967 with purpose in my life and I have a lot of energy, but it's been 610 00:41:02,967 --> 00:41:05,697 a real journey for me to let go. 611 00:41:06,687 --> 00:41:10,947 And so, um, and, and rest, that's the heart of it, right? 612 00:41:10,947 --> 00:41:16,467 Is like there's only, you know, there's an old like a thousand year old, um, 613 00:41:17,097 --> 00:41:24,417 Jewish proverb, which is, um, it's not your job to finish the task, but 614 00:41:24,417 --> 00:41:26,127 neither are you free to neglect it. 615 00:41:27,747 --> 00:41:32,187 And I think that's a really important, you know, piece of wisdom 616 00:41:32,187 --> 00:41:33,357 from a thousand years ago, which. 617 00:41:35,142 --> 00:41:38,952 Lives at the center of this conversation and um, and the conversations I'm 618 00:41:38,952 --> 00:41:42,432 having just with myself right now, which is like, what is our role? 619 00:41:43,332 --> 00:41:52,782 Obviously we need to participate in these times, but knowing that our participation 620 00:41:52,812 --> 00:42:01,122 is a very limited, um, engagement and that we can't finish it, but we should 621 00:42:01,122 --> 00:42:03,042 not participate 'cause we can't finish it. 622 00:42:03,042 --> 00:42:03,972 Mm-hmm. 623 00:42:05,742 --> 00:42:06,132 Yeah. 624 00:42:07,392 --> 00:42:08,292 Thank you for that. 625 00:42:08,292 --> 00:42:11,562 I, I have been thinking a lot about 626 00:42:13,662 --> 00:42:17,022 sort of one end of this space being. 627 00:42:18,402 --> 00:42:20,562 Totally overwhelmed withdrawal. 628 00:42:20,562 --> 00:42:20,652 Mm-hmm. 629 00:42:21,492 --> 00:42:25,872 And the other end of the space being the always on activism. 630 00:42:26,052 --> 00:42:26,142 Mm-hmm. 631 00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:30,312 And what, what is this bridge in the middle of the two? 632 00:42:30,312 --> 00:42:33,822 And, and rest is a piece of that, a huge piece. 633 00:42:34,002 --> 00:42:38,202 And it's, it's real rest, nourishing rest. 634 00:42:38,202 --> 00:42:38,592 Right. 635 00:42:38,652 --> 00:42:41,352 That, that makes a piece of that bridge to me. 636 00:42:42,207 --> 00:42:42,567 Yeah. 637 00:42:42,687 --> 00:42:50,187 Nourishing rest and a willingness to surrender control. 638 00:42:50,522 --> 00:42:50,602 Hmm. 639 00:42:51,987 --> 00:42:52,197 Yeah. 640 00:42:52,617 --> 00:42:55,977 And that also, speaking of, you know, that's kind of the conversation 641 00:42:55,977 --> 00:42:59,097 I was having about I permanence with the living world is like. 642 00:42:59,667 --> 00:43:03,747 You know, there's been so many times where I want things to go a certain way 643 00:43:03,747 --> 00:43:09,717 and they don't, and I have to continue to l um, loosen my grip on things. 644 00:43:09,747 --> 00:43:11,517 And rest is the ultimate. 645 00:43:11,547 --> 00:43:15,807 I mean, it's the many, many practices, there are little deaths, you know, they're 646 00:43:15,807 --> 00:43:21,657 the many practices of letting go of control and kind of allowing ourselves 647 00:43:21,657 --> 00:43:25,737 to sink back into the greater void. 648 00:43:26,442 --> 00:43:33,702 And so that we might wake up tomorrow and pursue again, our purpose or our 649 00:43:33,702 --> 00:43:35,892 gifts or justice or whatever it is. 650 00:43:36,672 --> 00:43:46,872 Um, but it is, um, it's, it's essential for our own, for staying connected 651 00:43:46,872 --> 00:43:54,672 to our own humanity must include, um, the limitation of our reach. 652 00:43:55,662 --> 00:43:58,632 You know, so rest is that. 653 00:43:58,752 --> 00:44:01,062 It's like there's only so much I can do. 654 00:44:02,832 --> 00:44:03,102 Yeah. 655 00:44:03,252 --> 00:44:04,782 And I'm practicing this too. 656 00:44:04,782 --> 00:44:10,692 It's, I, I'm speaking from the, from the, with a shovel in my 657 00:44:10,692 --> 00:44:13,482 hand and I'm like down too. 658 00:44:15,312 --> 00:44:16,797 Oh Day. 659 00:44:17,127 --> 00:44:17,817 Thank you. 660 00:44:17,877 --> 00:44:22,317 Thank you for your time and for engaging in this conversation. 661 00:44:22,377 --> 00:44:24,807 It's so rich and such a pleasure. 662 00:44:25,047 --> 00:44:25,587 Thank you. 663 00:44:25,827 --> 00:44:28,887 Listeners, links will be in the show notes so you can learn more 664 00:44:28,887 --> 00:44:32,187 about Day and his work, um, Day. 665 00:44:32,187 --> 00:44:32,757 Thank you. 666 00:44:33,147 --> 00:44:33,477 Yeah. 667 00:44:33,477 --> 00:44:35,007 Thank you so much for having me again.