1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,199 Most people think that who they really are 2 00:00:03,199 --> 00:00:06,160 is who they're afraid they are, which is 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:07,700 the shame and the patterns. 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,119 And it's huge to find out that who 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,759 you are is really not who you're afraid 6 00:00:13,759 --> 00:00:16,384 you are and not all the patterns 7 00:00:16,684 --> 00:00:17,984 you've been acting at. 8 00:00:19,324 --> 00:00:22,125 Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and 9 00:00:22,125 --> 00:00:25,184 this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius. 10 00:00:25,884 --> 00:00:27,904 It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute, 11 00:00:28,125 --> 00:00:30,880 and it's stories and anecdotes 12 00:00:31,579 --> 00:00:33,039 and people we interview 13 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,140 about their life post process and how it 14 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:37,280 lives in the world 15 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:38,799 radiating love. 16 00:00:46,754 --> 00:00:49,174 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast. 17 00:00:49,715 --> 00:00:52,674 Andy Milberg is with us. Welcome, Andy. Hi, 18 00:00:52,674 --> 00:00:54,914 Drew. Nice to be here. So we are 19 00:00:54,914 --> 00:00:56,774 talking about negative love, 20 00:00:57,390 --> 00:00:59,570 not two words that are usually 21 00:01:00,109 --> 00:01:02,609 said together, written together, negative 22 00:01:03,070 --> 00:01:04,290 and love. 23 00:01:04,829 --> 00:01:06,769 But here we are talking about 24 00:01:07,229 --> 00:01:08,930 what turns out to be a foundational 25 00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:09,810 principle 26 00:01:10,510 --> 00:01:11,409 of the Hoffman 27 00:01:12,284 --> 00:01:13,984 experience, the Hoffman process. 28 00:01:14,444 --> 00:01:17,265 Andy, will you share a little bit about 29 00:01:17,724 --> 00:01:20,284 negative love? You are often known as the 30 00:01:20,284 --> 00:01:22,944 expert around negative love. You've been teaching for 31 00:01:23,004 --> 00:01:25,244 many, many years. Talk to us a little 32 00:01:25,244 --> 00:01:26,545 bit about what the heck 33 00:01:27,049 --> 00:01:28,189 is negative love. 34 00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:30,990 Well, Drew, it's really the foundational 35 00:01:32,250 --> 00:01:35,230 principle of the Hoffman process that Bob Hoffman 36 00:01:35,370 --> 00:01:36,270 came up with 37 00:01:36,810 --> 00:01:39,609 in the late nineteen sixties. So that's, like, 38 00:01:39,609 --> 00:01:40,990 almost sixty years ago. 39 00:01:41,344 --> 00:01:42,724 He asked two questions. 40 00:01:43,984 --> 00:01:46,724 The first question was why does seemingly 41 00:01:47,025 --> 00:01:48,245 rational adults 42 00:01:49,344 --> 00:01:49,844 continue 43 00:01:50,224 --> 00:01:51,765 to act out automatically 44 00:01:52,545 --> 00:01:53,045 compulsively 45 00:01:54,305 --> 00:01:56,005 in self defeating ways? 46 00:01:56,530 --> 00:01:57,990 This could be through behaviors, 47 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:00,069 through their attitudes, 48 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:01,430 through their beliefs, 49 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:04,310 even when these 50 00:02:04,850 --> 00:02:07,569 attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors hurt them and hurt 51 00:02:07,569 --> 00:02:09,735 the people around them that they care about. 52 00:02:09,974 --> 00:02:11,974 So that was question number one. Why it 53 00:02:11,974 --> 00:02:14,775 is seemingly rational adults do this? The second 54 00:02:14,775 --> 00:02:15,754 question was, 55 00:02:16,134 --> 00:02:17,914 why is it so hard to change? 56 00:02:18,615 --> 00:02:21,094 And that's where he came up with the 57 00:02:21,094 --> 00:02:24,155 fundamental theory of the process, which is negative 58 00:02:24,215 --> 00:02:24,715 lab. 59 00:02:25,129 --> 00:02:28,169 That second question, Bob Hoffman asked about why 60 00:02:28,169 --> 00:02:29,949 it's so difficult to change 61 00:02:30,729 --> 00:02:31,789 these behaviors, 62 00:02:32,090 --> 00:02:35,229 attitudes, beliefs, moods that we've learned 63 00:02:35,610 --> 00:02:37,789 that are not serving us 64 00:02:38,294 --> 00:02:41,334 and interfering with our relationships with ourselves and 65 00:02:41,334 --> 00:02:41,834 others. 66 00:02:42,215 --> 00:02:44,534 We learned them when we were really young. 67 00:02:44,534 --> 00:02:46,294 I mean, we did mention that it's pre 68 00:02:46,294 --> 00:02:46,794 verbal. 69 00:02:47,254 --> 00:02:48,155 We were primarily 70 00:02:49,254 --> 00:02:49,754 emotional 71 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,319 and physical beings. So we took on all 72 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:55,500 this stuff into our physicality, 73 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:56,939 into our emotions 74 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:57,900 energetically. 75 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,080 And what most people are trying to do 76 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,819 as an adult, seemingly rational adult 77 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,900 is think it away. 78 00:03:06,675 --> 00:03:09,075 I shouldn't do this. I'm not gonna do 79 00:03:09,075 --> 00:03:10,675 that again. And then we get, you know, 80 00:03:10,675 --> 00:03:11,575 into a situation. 81 00:03:12,115 --> 00:03:14,455 We get triggered and we do it again. 82 00:03:15,474 --> 00:03:18,615 A really important piece of the Hoffman process 83 00:03:19,395 --> 00:03:20,135 is to 84 00:03:20,594 --> 00:03:21,094 disconnect 85 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,659 from the need to act out these patterns, 86 00:03:25,519 --> 00:03:27,759 to move that energy out of us and 87 00:03:27,759 --> 00:03:28,739 create space 88 00:03:29,599 --> 00:03:30,659 for new possibilities 89 00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:33,379 and more choice in our life. 90 00:03:34,014 --> 00:03:35,314 What a great way to 91 00:03:35,694 --> 00:03:38,334 figure something out to ask what is the 92 00:03:38,334 --> 00:03:40,735 question we're asking in the first place. Right? 93 00:03:40,735 --> 00:03:43,215 Yeah. I mean, he was concerned about the 94 00:03:43,215 --> 00:03:44,354 pain that people 95 00:03:44,814 --> 00:03:46,514 experience in their worlds, 96 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:49,700 And he was looking for ways to get 97 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:52,260 free from that. And he went all the 98 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:54,580 way back to childhood, didn't he? He went 99 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:55,800 back to birth 100 00:03:56,099 --> 00:03:57,800 because what he realized 101 00:03:58,180 --> 00:04:00,419 was that if you think about a human 102 00:04:00,419 --> 00:04:01,400 infant, the newborn, 103 00:04:02,175 --> 00:04:02,835 a newborn 104 00:04:03,135 --> 00:04:05,635 human infant is one of the most helpless 105 00:04:05,775 --> 00:04:06,995 beings on the planet. 106 00:04:08,094 --> 00:04:10,435 It cannot survive on its own. 107 00:04:11,135 --> 00:04:11,955 Other mammals 108 00:04:12,254 --> 00:04:13,155 have the capacity 109 00:04:13,534 --> 00:04:16,654 to walk, to find food, to have some 110 00:04:16,654 --> 00:04:17,394 kind of 111 00:04:17,750 --> 00:04:18,889 survival skills 112 00:04:19,350 --> 00:04:22,089 very early on, but not human beings. 113 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:25,689 So a human infant is totally 114 00:04:26,069 --> 00:04:27,449 needy and dependent 115 00:04:27,750 --> 00:04:29,209 on their primary caretakers. 116 00:04:30,144 --> 00:04:31,764 In most cases, their parents 117 00:04:33,024 --> 00:04:35,285 for the components of survival, 118 00:04:35,824 --> 00:04:37,444 which are basically food 119 00:04:38,064 --> 00:04:40,165 and shelter as physical components. 120 00:04:41,104 --> 00:04:43,819 But there's also something else that he realized 121 00:04:43,819 --> 00:04:46,480 that human beings, human infants need 122 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:49,279 to not only survive, but to thrive. 123 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:52,779 We can call that love, but what is 124 00:04:52,779 --> 00:04:54,319 love to a newborn? 125 00:04:55,404 --> 00:04:57,024 It's a quality of attention. 126 00:04:57,404 --> 00:04:58,464 It's a connection. 127 00:04:59,884 --> 00:05:02,785 It's a sense that everything is alright. 128 00:05:03,564 --> 00:05:05,904 My caretakers are here for me. 129 00:05:06,685 --> 00:05:09,324 I'm gonna survive. I'm okay the way I 130 00:05:09,324 --> 00:05:09,824 am. 131 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:11,949 And what he postulated 132 00:05:12,250 --> 00:05:13,069 was that 133 00:05:14,009 --> 00:05:15,550 no parents or caretakers 134 00:05:15,930 --> 00:05:17,850 can give that child what he called an 135 00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:18,350 unconditional 136 00:05:19,129 --> 00:05:20,189 sense of 137 00:05:20,729 --> 00:05:22,189 love and presence 138 00:05:22,995 --> 00:05:23,814 and attention. 139 00:05:24,675 --> 00:05:27,074 So in the moments when that connection is 140 00:05:27,074 --> 00:05:27,574 lost, 141 00:05:28,435 --> 00:05:31,955 then it produces a state of, let's say, 142 00:05:31,955 --> 00:05:32,455 unease, 143 00:05:32,915 --> 00:05:33,415 anxiety, 144 00:05:33,795 --> 00:05:34,295 fear 145 00:05:35,314 --> 00:05:35,939 in this 146 00:05:36,420 --> 00:05:38,120 very primal being 147 00:05:38,899 --> 00:05:40,839 that, oh my god, I'm not gonna survive. 148 00:05:41,379 --> 00:05:43,060 What do I have to do to survive? 149 00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:44,199 I have to reconnect. 150 00:05:44,899 --> 00:05:46,360 There's something wrong. 151 00:05:46,899 --> 00:05:49,160 And a human infant doesn't have the capacity 152 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:51,160 to realize that, well, 153 00:05:51,544 --> 00:05:54,264 you know, mom's attention is towards something else 154 00:05:54,264 --> 00:05:55,404 right now. Dad's 155 00:05:55,865 --> 00:05:57,245 thinking about the ballgame. 156 00:05:57,944 --> 00:06:00,425 If there's something wrong, it can't be with 157 00:06:00,425 --> 00:06:01,084 the parents 158 00:06:02,425 --> 00:06:04,985 who are the the link to survival. So 159 00:06:04,985 --> 00:06:07,899 there's something wrong with the infinite self 160 00:06:08,199 --> 00:06:10,600 with you, with me. And this is very 161 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,139 early, very young, 162 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,540 very small, non rational. 163 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:18,060 It's not even a thought. It's a sense 164 00:06:18,944 --> 00:06:20,485 of danger to survival, 165 00:06:21,664 --> 00:06:22,564 way preverbal. 166 00:06:23,185 --> 00:06:24,324 What Bob postulated 167 00:06:24,625 --> 00:06:25,444 was that 168 00:06:25,824 --> 00:06:28,224 if there's a sense that there's something wrong, 169 00:06:28,224 --> 00:06:30,784 I'm not gonna survive and there's something wrong 170 00:06:30,784 --> 00:06:31,604 with me, 171 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:33,899 then I can change 172 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:35,339 to reconnect 173 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:37,500 with my 174 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:38,540 lifeline, 175 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:39,660 my caretakers. 176 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,660 And that means being like them, 177 00:06:44,759 --> 00:06:46,060 abandoning my 178 00:06:46,724 --> 00:06:47,224 essence 179 00:06:48,404 --> 00:06:51,365 to take on whatever is around me in 180 00:06:51,365 --> 00:06:52,024 the environment, 181 00:06:52,644 --> 00:06:53,464 which means 182 00:06:54,644 --> 00:06:55,384 my parents' 183 00:06:55,925 --> 00:06:56,425 qualities, 184 00:06:57,444 --> 00:06:58,344 some good, 185 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:00,319 some not so good. 186 00:07:00,699 --> 00:07:02,240 So again, it comes back 187 00:07:02,699 --> 00:07:05,279 to behaviors, moods, attitudes, and beliefs 188 00:07:06,860 --> 00:07:09,439 that we start to absorb from our environment, 189 00:07:09,579 --> 00:07:10,479 from our caretakers, 190 00:07:11,019 --> 00:07:12,639 and that becomes our identity, 191 00:07:13,865 --> 00:07:16,185 what we call in the process our false 192 00:07:16,185 --> 00:07:16,685 self. 193 00:07:17,144 --> 00:07:19,404 It has very much a kind of timeline 194 00:07:19,464 --> 00:07:22,285 to it. It starts with the total dependency 195 00:07:23,225 --> 00:07:25,164 on parents, the helplessness 196 00:07:26,024 --> 00:07:28,204 of infants who are born. 197 00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:29,990 It starts with innocence, 198 00:07:30,529 --> 00:07:32,709 the purity, the goodness, the light 199 00:07:33,089 --> 00:07:34,310 in each being. 200 00:07:35,089 --> 00:07:38,610 There's a universality to this where all parents 201 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:40,310 can't be there all the time, 202 00:07:40,705 --> 00:07:42,625 even if we try our best, even if 203 00:07:42,625 --> 00:07:44,785 we come from the best families with the 204 00:07:44,785 --> 00:07:45,605 best intentioned 205 00:07:46,064 --> 00:07:46,564 parents, 206 00:07:47,425 --> 00:07:49,985 that negative love will be present in our 207 00:07:49,985 --> 00:07:52,404 life whether we try or not. 208 00:07:52,789 --> 00:07:55,050 That's correct. But this is not an indictment 209 00:07:55,110 --> 00:07:55,850 of parents. 210 00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:58,569 It is more about the poignancy 211 00:07:59,269 --> 00:08:00,569 of the human condition. 212 00:08:01,189 --> 00:08:03,430 What it is to develop as a human 213 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:03,930 being, 214 00:08:04,709 --> 00:08:07,849 needing to fit into the family, to 215 00:08:08,264 --> 00:08:08,764 connect, 216 00:08:09,064 --> 00:08:09,564 to 217 00:08:09,944 --> 00:08:10,685 be loved, 218 00:08:11,625 --> 00:08:12,125 and 219 00:08:12,504 --> 00:08:13,485 who we are. 220 00:08:13,944 --> 00:08:14,925 Yeah. There's something 221 00:08:15,225 --> 00:08:16,285 very normalizing 222 00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:20,604 about being human and about acquiring 223 00:08:20,985 --> 00:08:21,485 patterns 224 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:25,800 that we all have. Like, whether we try 225 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,339 or like it or not or, 226 00:08:27,959 --> 00:08:29,979 read books or heal our childhood, 227 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:32,700 we will take on patterns 228 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:35,959 just because it's part of being human. There's 229 00:08:35,959 --> 00:08:37,659 something freeing about that. 230 00:08:38,095 --> 00:08:40,495 Yeah. And one of the interesting parts is 231 00:08:40,495 --> 00:08:42,894 that even something that a parent does that 232 00:08:42,894 --> 00:08:45,235 maybe have a really positive intention 233 00:08:45,934 --> 00:08:47,875 and comes from a place of caring 234 00:08:48,335 --> 00:08:51,075 can have a negative impact on the child. 235 00:08:52,009 --> 00:08:53,870 Parent that is too concerned 236 00:08:54,809 --> 00:08:55,309 hovers, 237 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:59,050 does things for the child. Now in one 238 00:08:59,050 --> 00:09:01,529 sense, this is lovely. But in the other, 239 00:09:01,529 --> 00:09:03,629 the infant, the child learns 240 00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:05,914 that they don't know how to do it 241 00:09:05,914 --> 00:09:07,995 for themselves. They expect others to do it 242 00:09:07,995 --> 00:09:10,075 for them, and this can show up later 243 00:09:10,075 --> 00:09:12,654 in life, especially in intimate relationships. 244 00:09:13,514 --> 00:09:17,195 So the human infant is a really open 245 00:09:17,195 --> 00:09:19,375 system that's learning all the time, 246 00:09:19,790 --> 00:09:21,889 and some of the things that we learn 247 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:22,850 limit us 248 00:09:23,389 --> 00:09:24,529 as we grow older. 249 00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:25,730 Yeah. So 250 00:09:26,590 --> 00:09:27,970 because there is that 251 00:09:28,590 --> 00:09:29,090 discrepancy 252 00:09:29,550 --> 00:09:31,250 between what we need 253 00:09:32,215 --> 00:09:35,174 and what can be given to us in 254 00:09:35,174 --> 00:09:35,674 that 255 00:09:36,134 --> 00:09:38,394 gap, we take on these protective 256 00:09:39,174 --> 00:09:39,674 patterns. 257 00:09:40,134 --> 00:09:42,375 And you were just earlier talking about the 258 00:09:42,375 --> 00:09:43,274 false self. 259 00:09:43,815 --> 00:09:45,355 Let's go there a little bit. 260 00:09:45,730 --> 00:09:48,789 So now we're moving into the strategy, 261 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:50,549 the coping mechanism, 262 00:09:51,009 --> 00:09:52,950 the patterns we take on 263 00:09:53,490 --> 00:09:53,990 given 264 00:09:54,610 --> 00:09:56,450 the fact that we can't get our needs 265 00:09:56,450 --> 00:09:58,149 met, and we have 266 00:09:58,464 --> 00:09:59,365 a kind of abandonment 267 00:09:59,904 --> 00:10:00,644 of self. 268 00:10:01,504 --> 00:10:04,225 What is this false self people talk about, 269 00:10:04,225 --> 00:10:07,184 the gold rings on the negative love map 270 00:10:07,184 --> 00:10:10,004 that we display in the classroom every time? 271 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,240 Well, before I go into that, I'll be 272 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,320 a little personal. It's the idea that, like, 273 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,240 when I did the Hoffman process as a 274 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:16,740 student, 275 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,759 my attitude coming in was, well, this is 276 00:10:19,759 --> 00:10:21,279 who I am. This is the way I've 277 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:24,240 always been. I was delighted to find out 278 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,154 that that's not how I always have to 279 00:10:27,154 --> 00:10:27,654 be. 280 00:10:28,434 --> 00:10:30,835 If there's much more available to me when 281 00:10:30,835 --> 00:10:32,294 I break the 282 00:10:32,915 --> 00:10:33,415 automatic 283 00:10:33,955 --> 00:10:34,455 compulsivity 284 00:10:35,315 --> 00:10:37,554 of the patterns, the hold they have on 285 00:10:37,554 --> 00:10:39,110 me, the way they 286 00:10:39,490 --> 00:10:41,429 just get triggered in certain situations 287 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:44,149 and take me over 288 00:10:44,610 --> 00:10:45,110 energetically 289 00:10:45,649 --> 00:10:46,549 and behaviorally. 290 00:10:47,410 --> 00:10:50,129 When I was able to break the power 291 00:10:50,129 --> 00:10:52,769 of the patterns, it opened up space for 292 00:10:52,769 --> 00:10:53,509 new possibilities 293 00:10:54,514 --> 00:10:56,434 that I did not and could not have 294 00:10:56,434 --> 00:10:56,934 imagined 295 00:10:57,394 --> 00:10:59,095 before doing the Hoffman process. 296 00:10:59,875 --> 00:11:02,195 So that's where we say, you know, when 297 00:11:02,195 --> 00:11:04,695 you're serious about change, that's the change. 298 00:11:05,075 --> 00:11:07,955 And it's not changing into somebody different. It's 299 00:11:07,955 --> 00:11:08,455 actually 300 00:11:09,169 --> 00:11:09,669 reclaiming 301 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:13,829 all that I can be and my potential 302 00:11:14,690 --> 00:11:17,730 rather than being stuck on this, like, one 303 00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:20,070 lane road for the rest of my life 304 00:11:20,450 --> 00:11:22,769 where something happens in life and I react 305 00:11:22,769 --> 00:11:24,309 to it in the same old way. 306 00:11:24,794 --> 00:11:26,735 I imagine that's a bit unsettling 307 00:11:27,115 --> 00:11:29,375 for students when they come to the process 308 00:11:29,595 --> 00:11:30,095 to 309 00:11:30,715 --> 00:11:32,654 consider that the way they've been 310 00:11:33,274 --> 00:11:36,475 is actually not their authentic self, that it's 311 00:11:36,475 --> 00:11:37,289 a bunch of 312 00:11:37,769 --> 00:11:40,429 roles and characters and 313 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:43,289 a kind of false self that they've played 314 00:11:43,289 --> 00:11:46,009 in their lives up until now? Well, they 315 00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:49,129 come into the process mainly because something's not 316 00:11:49,129 --> 00:11:52,250 working, and there's some sense that things can 317 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:52,909 be different. 318 00:11:53,745 --> 00:11:56,065 So I would say that, you know, maybe 319 00:11:56,065 --> 00:11:59,504 there's a not quite believing the first day 320 00:11:59,504 --> 00:12:01,985 that there can be such a profound shift 321 00:12:01,985 --> 00:12:03,125 in seven days. 322 00:12:03,825 --> 00:12:06,485 We'll put the negative love map 323 00:12:06,785 --> 00:12:09,450 in the show notes so people can get 324 00:12:09,450 --> 00:12:11,929 a sense of it. But you're talking about 325 00:12:11,929 --> 00:12:14,269 the power of the cycle of transformation, 326 00:12:14,649 --> 00:12:16,590 aren't you, really, when it comes to 327 00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:19,870 the fact that we can change this setup 328 00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:21,790 that is the negative love syndrome? 329 00:12:22,174 --> 00:12:23,074 Right. Our methodology 330 00:12:23,375 --> 00:12:26,355 in the process has been tested over, what, 331 00:12:26,735 --> 00:12:28,194 fifty nine years now, 332 00:12:28,814 --> 00:12:31,294 and we keep improving it with the latest 333 00:12:31,294 --> 00:12:32,995 research on human behavior. 334 00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:36,589 So, yeah, the cycle of transformation is very 335 00:12:36,589 --> 00:12:38,909 powerful. But, again, let's get back to negative 336 00:12:38,909 --> 00:12:40,769 love and the negative love map. 337 00:12:41,629 --> 00:12:43,629 On that, that initial sense 338 00:12:44,029 --> 00:12:46,350 remember, this is all driven by the initial 339 00:12:46,350 --> 00:12:46,725 sense 340 00:12:47,524 --> 00:12:49,384 that there's something wrong with me, 341 00:12:49,924 --> 00:12:52,024 and this is the most hidden part of 342 00:12:52,084 --> 00:12:53,304 most people's lives. 343 00:12:54,164 --> 00:12:56,644 We can label it as shame later in 344 00:12:56,644 --> 00:12:57,144 life. 345 00:12:58,004 --> 00:12:58,664 But, initially, 346 00:12:59,845 --> 00:13:00,345 it's 347 00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:03,049 there's something wrong with me. I'm not enough. 348 00:13:03,049 --> 00:13:04,190 I'm not good enough. 349 00:13:04,570 --> 00:13:06,830 I expect to be abandoned or rejected. 350 00:13:08,169 --> 00:13:11,129 It's amazing to me how many people come 351 00:13:11,129 --> 00:13:12,029 into the process 352 00:13:12,889 --> 00:13:14,029 seemingly successful 353 00:13:15,125 --> 00:13:15,945 who are 354 00:13:16,565 --> 00:13:17,065 struggling 355 00:13:17,524 --> 00:13:18,585 with those feelings 356 00:13:19,524 --> 00:13:21,605 every day of their life, if not many 357 00:13:21,605 --> 00:13:22,985 moments during the day 358 00:13:23,365 --> 00:13:25,284 of I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. 359 00:13:25,284 --> 00:13:27,945 There's something wrong with me fundamentally. 360 00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:32,169 You know, Andy, when you just said that, 361 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:35,370 what came to me was the arrows 362 00:13:35,909 --> 00:13:38,569 and the role the arrows play 363 00:13:39,029 --> 00:13:40,730 in the negative love map. 364 00:13:41,154 --> 00:13:42,914 Can you talk about those a little bit? 365 00:13:42,914 --> 00:13:45,075 Well, that initial sense of there's something wrong 366 00:13:45,075 --> 00:13:46,855 with me, that's, like, unbearable. 367 00:13:47,554 --> 00:13:50,195 So that's where we start moving out where 368 00:13:50,195 --> 00:13:52,294 the arrows take us out into 369 00:13:52,754 --> 00:13:55,875 the attitudes, beliefs, behaviors that we see around 370 00:13:55,875 --> 00:13:56,934 us and our parents, 371 00:13:57,820 --> 00:14:00,080 the roles we take on in our family, 372 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:02,559 the attitudes we have. 373 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:04,559 You know, those are all 374 00:14:04,940 --> 00:14:05,440 a 375 00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:06,480 accumulation 376 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:08,240 of patterns, 377 00:14:10,035 --> 00:14:12,774 And we call them negative patterns because they're 378 00:14:13,154 --> 00:14:13,654 automatic 379 00:14:14,115 --> 00:14:14,615 compulsive, 380 00:14:15,875 --> 00:14:18,215 and they're really not a choice 381 00:14:19,475 --> 00:14:22,115 when we're in our patterns, when we're acting 382 00:14:22,115 --> 00:14:23,575 out our false self 383 00:14:24,019 --> 00:14:26,580 of who we had to be in our 384 00:14:26,580 --> 00:14:27,080 childhoods 385 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:30,820 to fit into our family, to belong, to 386 00:14:30,820 --> 00:14:32,740 try to get love. You know, I heard 387 00:14:32,740 --> 00:14:34,899 a teacher say the other day, think of 388 00:14:34,899 --> 00:14:35,720 this acronym, 389 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:36,600 CARL, 390 00:14:37,184 --> 00:14:37,684 compulsive, 391 00:14:38,065 --> 00:14:38,565 automatic, 392 00:14:39,105 --> 00:14:39,605 reactive, 393 00:14:39,904 --> 00:14:40,644 and learned. 394 00:14:41,345 --> 00:14:43,345 And I was like, oh, that's so good. 395 00:14:43,345 --> 00:14:45,585 CARL. We don't realize that because we, you 396 00:14:45,585 --> 00:14:48,144 know, we go through life and somebody looks 397 00:14:48,144 --> 00:14:48,804 at us 398 00:14:49,184 --> 00:14:50,865 the wrong way, and we go into a 399 00:14:50,865 --> 00:14:53,210 reaction automatically, we make up 400 00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:55,750 stories about it. One of the things I 401 00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:57,429 tell my students at the beginning of the 402 00:14:57,429 --> 00:15:00,009 process is I use the anachronism 403 00:15:00,470 --> 00:15:00,970 guts, 404 00:15:01,509 --> 00:15:02,730 give up the stories. 405 00:15:03,315 --> 00:15:04,855 We make these powerful 406 00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:06,455 stories about ourselves, 407 00:15:07,394 --> 00:15:09,955 about our parents, about our childhood, about other 408 00:15:09,955 --> 00:15:10,455 people, 409 00:15:10,835 --> 00:15:11,735 about situations. 410 00:15:13,154 --> 00:15:16,274 And the stories are are based in the 411 00:15:16,274 --> 00:15:16,774 automaticity 412 00:15:17,394 --> 00:15:20,970 of what we learned about who we are 413 00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:22,889 and how we have to be 414 00:15:23,190 --> 00:15:23,850 in life. 415 00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:26,549 Part of what you're saying is we're learning 416 00:15:26,549 --> 00:15:29,029 things, and we're not even aware that we're 417 00:15:29,029 --> 00:15:31,605 learning them. We sort of think, well, this 418 00:15:31,605 --> 00:15:32,964 is the way it is. This is the 419 00:15:32,964 --> 00:15:35,205 way it's always been. Well, our family is 420 00:15:35,205 --> 00:15:36,825 the only reality we know. 421 00:15:37,445 --> 00:15:39,065 And I remember one of the teachers 422 00:15:39,605 --> 00:15:40,985 would occasionally say, 423 00:15:41,524 --> 00:15:42,985 you went through an indoctrination 424 00:15:43,524 --> 00:15:44,745 camp for kids 425 00:15:45,389 --> 00:15:46,450 called your family. 426 00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:49,230 You know, indoctrination camp has kind of a 427 00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:52,190 negative connotation, but let's just say that is 428 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:53,649 again the human condition. 429 00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:56,509 And it's not to make your parents wrong 430 00:15:56,509 --> 00:15:58,910 or your family wrong. It's just that we 431 00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:00,850 all grew up as 432 00:16:01,764 --> 00:16:02,585 human beings 433 00:16:03,205 --> 00:16:05,705 with other human beings who weren't perfect, 434 00:16:06,085 --> 00:16:07,465 and we learn from them. 435 00:16:08,004 --> 00:16:09,625 And we learn from them because 436 00:16:10,485 --> 00:16:10,985 bonding 437 00:16:11,365 --> 00:16:13,705 is so important. It's so critical. 438 00:16:14,169 --> 00:16:17,470 Love is not some airy fairy romantic thing. 439 00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:18,350 It's 440 00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:22,009 an key ingredient for survival, isn't it? It 441 00:16:22,009 --> 00:16:24,250 is. And I'm glad you said the word 442 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:26,350 survival because underneath all this 443 00:16:26,705 --> 00:16:28,804 and one of the reasons why, 444 00:16:29,264 --> 00:16:31,205 you know, to answer Bob's second question, 445 00:16:31,585 --> 00:16:33,605 why is this so difficult to change, 446 00:16:34,144 --> 00:16:36,144 is that when we get triggered, there is 447 00:16:36,144 --> 00:16:37,044 a survival 448 00:16:37,745 --> 00:16:38,245 fear 449 00:16:39,340 --> 00:16:41,040 that can be very subtle. 450 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:44,540 Most people aren't aware that that's what actually 451 00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:46,779 they're feeling in the deepest core of their 452 00:16:46,779 --> 00:16:47,279 being. 453 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:48,879 Non rational. 454 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:50,639 How would I know 455 00:16:50,995 --> 00:16:52,375 that that survival 456 00:16:52,675 --> 00:16:55,554 fear is there? Okay. I'll give you an 457 00:16:55,554 --> 00:16:56,054 example 458 00:16:56,514 --> 00:16:57,495 in my marriage. 459 00:16:58,355 --> 00:17:00,995 This is not as much lately. Thank goodness, 460 00:17:00,995 --> 00:17:02,434 because I've been working on it for a 461 00:17:02,434 --> 00:17:03,495 long time. But 462 00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:05,690 if my wife criticizes 463 00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:06,569 me, 464 00:17:07,190 --> 00:17:07,690 my 465 00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:09,210 initial reaction 466 00:17:09,509 --> 00:17:11,509 you know, most people have fight, flight, or 467 00:17:11,509 --> 00:17:12,009 freeze. 468 00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:14,650 My initial reaction is to fight. 469 00:17:15,349 --> 00:17:17,769 But if I slow down and look underneath 470 00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:18,410 that, 471 00:17:19,154 --> 00:17:19,654 it's 472 00:17:20,115 --> 00:17:20,615 actually 473 00:17:21,075 --> 00:17:23,975 kind of a freeze, a fear of abandonment. 474 00:17:25,075 --> 00:17:26,835 Now, all she may be doing is giving 475 00:17:26,835 --> 00:17:28,595 me some feedback about something that could be 476 00:17:28,595 --> 00:17:31,894 useful for me, but to my little infant 477 00:17:32,115 --> 00:17:32,615 brain, 478 00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:35,460 oh my god. She doesn't like me. She's 479 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:37,940 criticizing me. She's gonna leave me. I'm gonna 480 00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:38,440 be 481 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,559 all alone, abandoned, and I'm gonna die. 482 00:17:42,259 --> 00:17:42,759 Wow. 483 00:17:43,059 --> 00:17:45,700 That's the there there's no joke. Yeah. That's 484 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:46,519 pretty primal. 485 00:17:47,595 --> 00:17:49,835 When you look at the deeper levels of 486 00:17:49,835 --> 00:17:50,894 negative love, 487 00:17:51,515 --> 00:17:54,494 it comes back down to survival and fear. 488 00:17:55,115 --> 00:17:56,095 But our 489 00:17:56,714 --> 00:17:57,214 rational 490 00:17:57,595 --> 00:17:58,575 adult minds 491 00:17:59,035 --> 00:18:01,140 don't like to feel that. 492 00:18:01,619 --> 00:18:04,019 So that's where we especially make up stories 493 00:18:04,019 --> 00:18:05,320 about what's going on. 494 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:07,460 And in this case, I can make up 495 00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:09,539 a story of, oh, she's wrong. She's always 496 00:18:09,539 --> 00:18:12,039 criticizing me. What's wrong with her? 497 00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:14,119 That's to protect myself. 498 00:18:14,924 --> 00:18:16,625 That's the protective mechanism. 499 00:18:17,245 --> 00:18:20,365 You mentioned that earlier about that patterns are 500 00:18:20,365 --> 00:18:21,664 a protective mechanism 501 00:18:22,765 --> 00:18:24,305 against the fear of abandonment, 502 00:18:25,245 --> 00:18:25,745 rejection, 503 00:18:26,125 --> 00:18:26,625 and 504 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:27,900 that we won't 505 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:29,339 survive. Oftentimes, 506 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,220 people have the experience of 507 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:33,980 doing things that 508 00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:35,099 sabotage, 509 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:38,940 that we're all familiar with self sabotage, and 510 00:18:39,644 --> 00:18:40,545 knowing better 511 00:18:41,085 --> 00:18:43,884 and yet still struggling, still making the same 512 00:18:43,884 --> 00:18:44,384 mistake. 513 00:18:45,085 --> 00:18:45,904 Part of 514 00:18:46,205 --> 00:18:49,105 what Bob said is that stop looking 515 00:18:49,484 --> 00:18:51,424 here at the present situation 516 00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:54,809 and not being able to find answers because 517 00:18:54,809 --> 00:18:56,750 you'll keep repeating it. Instead, 518 00:18:57,930 --> 00:18:58,750 allow yourself 519 00:18:59,049 --> 00:19:01,789 to go back into childhood 520 00:19:02,170 --> 00:19:02,910 to remember 521 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:04,670 the little being 522 00:19:05,625 --> 00:19:07,325 that was the origin 523 00:19:08,105 --> 00:19:09,565 of where these patterns 524 00:19:10,184 --> 00:19:10,684 came. 525 00:19:11,065 --> 00:19:13,305 So part of what you're saying is they 526 00:19:13,305 --> 00:19:13,805 work 527 00:19:14,585 --> 00:19:17,065 because they kind of gave us what we 528 00:19:17,065 --> 00:19:20,180 wanted. They helped us feel connected, and then 529 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:22,599 they don't work as we get older. Right? 530 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:23,640 Right. 531 00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:25,480 Right. It's a brilliant 532 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:27,400 survival strategy 533 00:19:28,420 --> 00:19:30,500 based on the I forget which part of 534 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:32,099 the brain it is. It's the back of 535 00:19:32,099 --> 00:19:33,880 the brain. It's the early brain, 536 00:19:34,785 --> 00:19:35,924 survival oriented. 537 00:19:37,345 --> 00:19:39,664 But when we're in the present as an 538 00:19:39,664 --> 00:19:41,825 adult and that gets triggered, we go back 539 00:19:41,825 --> 00:19:44,144 into that survival brain. We're trying to solve 540 00:19:44,144 --> 00:19:44,644 things 541 00:19:45,025 --> 00:19:46,625 as a three year old or a five 542 00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:47,365 year old. 543 00:19:48,089 --> 00:19:49,950 And our adult, 544 00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:52,970 let's call it our wise adult self, or 545 00:19:52,970 --> 00:19:54,809 in the process we call it the spiritual 546 00:19:54,809 --> 00:19:57,549 self, goes offline when we get triggered. 547 00:19:58,089 --> 00:20:01,289 And the trigger can be very quickly, again, 548 00:20:01,289 --> 00:20:02,109 on an early 549 00:20:02,634 --> 00:20:05,295 emotional and physical level. It was a brilliant 550 00:20:05,434 --> 00:20:05,934 adaptation 551 00:20:06,234 --> 00:20:06,734 strategy. 552 00:20:07,355 --> 00:20:10,954 And it ultimately falls short. Right? Because in 553 00:20:10,954 --> 00:20:14,174 the process, you know, we have incredibly 554 00:20:14,714 --> 00:20:15,934 successful people, 555 00:20:16,679 --> 00:20:20,440 famous people, and wealthy people. By any measure 556 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,319 of success, we have those students who sign 557 00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:24,220 up for the process 558 00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:27,339 because there's some sense that I thought 559 00:20:27,879 --> 00:20:29,099 that this 560 00:20:29,835 --> 00:20:30,335 successing, 561 00:20:30,794 --> 00:20:32,575 this efforting, this striving 562 00:20:33,355 --> 00:20:35,775 would bring me peace, love, 563 00:20:36,234 --> 00:20:37,454 happiness, contentment, 564 00:20:38,634 --> 00:20:41,755 but it's an illusion, isn't it? Negative love 565 00:20:41,755 --> 00:20:42,974 is a bit of an illusion. 566 00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:44,130 Absolutely. 567 00:20:44,589 --> 00:20:47,730 Especially when it's based in a sense of 568 00:20:47,789 --> 00:20:49,470 I'm not okay the way I am. I'm 569 00:20:49,470 --> 00:20:50,529 not good enough. 570 00:20:51,309 --> 00:20:54,029 And some of the successful people who have 571 00:20:54,029 --> 00:20:54,849 done the process, 572 00:20:55,150 --> 00:20:56,750 you know, that I've worked with, what I 573 00:20:56,750 --> 00:20:57,650 see is like, 574 00:20:58,134 --> 00:20:59,974 okay. If I just if I'm just a 575 00:20:59,974 --> 00:21:01,815 little more successful, if I just make a 576 00:21:01,815 --> 00:21:04,214 little more money, if I just, you know, 577 00:21:04,214 --> 00:21:05,355 achieve more, 578 00:21:05,974 --> 00:21:07,035 I'll be okay. 579 00:21:08,214 --> 00:21:08,714 But 580 00:21:09,095 --> 00:21:10,554 it doesn't work that way 581 00:21:11,329 --> 00:21:14,049 when the fundamental belief is I'm not okay. 582 00:21:14,049 --> 00:21:16,549 So we that's what we address so strongly 583 00:21:16,609 --> 00:21:17,430 in the process 584 00:21:18,289 --> 00:21:21,829 to break up that system and recognize that 585 00:21:22,369 --> 00:21:25,029 our essence, our deepest core, our essence, 586 00:21:25,795 --> 00:21:27,714 we are okay, and we don't have to 587 00:21:27,714 --> 00:21:29,335 try to keep proving it 588 00:21:29,634 --> 00:21:30,134 to 589 00:21:30,595 --> 00:21:32,454 mom, dad, or the world 590 00:21:32,835 --> 00:21:35,894 by achieving more or accumulating more. 591 00:21:36,195 --> 00:21:38,134 Part of what you're talking about there is 592 00:21:38,195 --> 00:21:40,595 shame. Right? This feeling of not good enough, 593 00:21:40,595 --> 00:21:43,000 and we go right at shame, don't we? 594 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,400 We address it. We name it. We talk 595 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,400 about it. It's a big piece of the 596 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,380 process. Right? It's a really important piece. 597 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:51,980 Really important. 598 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:53,820 And there's something about 599 00:21:54,414 --> 00:21:55,474 benevolent witnesses, 600 00:21:56,335 --> 00:21:59,535 and we know that both John Bradshaw, Healing 601 00:21:59,535 --> 00:22:01,695 the Shame that Binds Us, and Brene Brown, 602 00:22:01,695 --> 00:22:04,894 lots of research and writing they have done 603 00:22:04,894 --> 00:22:05,714 on shame. 604 00:22:06,174 --> 00:22:07,795 But in a way, 605 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:09,980 the teachers, the students, 606 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,340 the classmates are all benevolent witnesses, 607 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:14,539 aren't they? 608 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,680 Yes. And that's one of the I would 609 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,700 say one of the bonuses of the process 610 00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:23,000 is how doing the work in a group 611 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:23,500 setting. 612 00:22:24,494 --> 00:22:26,095 And a lot of people come in feeling 613 00:22:26,095 --> 00:22:27,714 very much alone, and I'm 614 00:22:28,095 --> 00:22:30,095 nervous about doing this work in a a 615 00:22:30,095 --> 00:22:33,055 group setting. But the group setting turns out 616 00:22:33,055 --> 00:22:34,994 to be incredibly supportive, 617 00:22:36,269 --> 00:22:39,150 and people who come in feeling, well, nobody 618 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:41,630 could understand me. Nobody else in the world 619 00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:44,049 would feel this way, realize that, wow. 620 00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:46,849 I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. 621 00:22:47,309 --> 00:22:49,090 I'm not uniquely broken. 622 00:22:49,924 --> 00:22:52,884 So it's an amazing experience of the process 623 00:22:52,884 --> 00:22:54,424 to see how people 624 00:22:54,884 --> 00:22:57,704 reclaim their ability to connect with other people 625 00:22:58,484 --> 00:23:01,204 and don't feel so isolated and alone in 626 00:23:01,204 --> 00:23:01,680 the world. 627 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,700 That common humanity is important, isn't it? Extremely. 628 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,200 It's a beautiful term, common humanity. Part of 629 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,759 what the arrows represent back to those arrows. 630 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:14,080 Because I know for me, it took me 631 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,365 a while to be like, what is it 632 00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:18,445 with these arrows? Why are they going that 633 00:23:18,445 --> 00:23:18,945 way? 634 00:23:19,404 --> 00:23:21,005 And once I got trained to be a 635 00:23:21,005 --> 00:23:23,965 teacher, I was like, oh, I see. We're 636 00:23:23,965 --> 00:23:26,384 heading in the wrong direction. We're we're moving 637 00:23:26,445 --> 00:23:26,945 away 638 00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:30,420 from our spirit. That's what patterns do. They 639 00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:31,240 send us 640 00:23:31,539 --> 00:23:33,640 away from this pain of shame 641 00:23:34,259 --> 00:23:36,359 into these coping strategies, and then 642 00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:39,585 they send us outside of the false self 643 00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:41,284 looking externally. 644 00:23:41,585 --> 00:23:44,085 And there's really two key pieces here 645 00:23:44,464 --> 00:23:47,904 that represent the outermost rings. Can you talk 646 00:23:47,904 --> 00:23:49,605 about them? Oh, yeah. 647 00:23:49,984 --> 00:23:53,044 If I only find the right person, everything 648 00:23:53,184 --> 00:23:54,164 will be great 649 00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:56,900 or the right group affiliation. 650 00:23:57,919 --> 00:23:59,059 Well, unfortunately, 651 00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:03,599 people disappoint us, so that strategy doesn't work. 652 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:05,679 And as far as the you know, looking 653 00:24:05,679 --> 00:24:07,940 for the one who will complete us, 654 00:24:08,424 --> 00:24:10,105 Many of us have done that more than 655 00:24:10,105 --> 00:24:10,605 once. 656 00:24:11,945 --> 00:24:13,325 But then there's always 657 00:24:13,945 --> 00:24:15,244 work, substances, 658 00:24:15,945 --> 00:24:16,445 activities. 659 00:24:17,545 --> 00:24:19,545 If I just throw myself into my work, 660 00:24:19,545 --> 00:24:20,525 I'll be okay. 661 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:23,539 Or I can always count on the bottle 662 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,160 of Jack Daniels or whatever it is, the 663 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:26,660 substance. 664 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,420 Addictions take on many forms, don't they? Yes. 665 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:32,720 And, of course, we've got the nationally approved 666 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,180 one, which is shopping 667 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:35,859 amplified by the Internet. 668 00:24:36,454 --> 00:24:37,894 But I want to go back to what 669 00:24:37,894 --> 00:24:39,575 you said about it's taking us in the 670 00:24:39,575 --> 00:24:40,394 wrong direction. 671 00:24:41,414 --> 00:24:44,315 We're really looking for reconnection with our 672 00:24:44,695 --> 00:24:46,234 authenticity, our essence, 673 00:24:46,934 --> 00:24:47,755 our core, 674 00:24:48,055 --> 00:24:51,410 and by moving out away, looking for something 675 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:52,470 outside of us, 676 00:24:53,250 --> 00:24:55,509 we get farther and farther away from that. 677 00:24:56,130 --> 00:24:58,529 So that's another thing that's beautiful about the 678 00:24:58,529 --> 00:25:00,690 work of the process is that from the 679 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:03,589 first day we connect you or reconnect you 680 00:25:04,154 --> 00:25:04,654 to 681 00:25:05,195 --> 00:25:07,835 what we're calling your spiritual self, your essence, 682 00:25:07,835 --> 00:25:10,174 your core, your authentic self, 683 00:25:10,795 --> 00:25:11,615 and building 684 00:25:12,394 --> 00:25:14,735 your relationship with who you are 685 00:25:15,434 --> 00:25:16,894 if you're not your patterns. 686 00:25:17,859 --> 00:25:20,259 And for many people, that's a revelation that 687 00:25:20,259 --> 00:25:22,660 there actually is more to me than my 688 00:25:22,660 --> 00:25:23,160 patterns. 689 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:24,519 Yeah. I mean, 690 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:26,200 it's a little scary 691 00:25:26,660 --> 00:25:29,799 to think I am only my patterns and 692 00:25:30,505 --> 00:25:33,065 wildly liberating to know that there's this whole 693 00:25:33,065 --> 00:25:35,484 another authentic way of being. Right? 694 00:25:35,865 --> 00:25:38,744 Yeah. I sometimes use three circles to describe 695 00:25:38,744 --> 00:25:40,904 this. There's an inner circle, which is who 696 00:25:40,904 --> 00:25:41,964 we really are. 697 00:25:42,649 --> 00:25:44,889 Then there's another circle, which is who we're 698 00:25:44,889 --> 00:25:46,190 afraid we are, 699 00:25:46,809 --> 00:25:49,389 which in process terms is that shame 700 00:25:49,769 --> 00:25:50,269 statement. 701 00:25:51,049 --> 00:25:53,210 And because of that, there's an a bigger 702 00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:54,970 circle, which is who we want the world 703 00:25:54,970 --> 00:25:57,345 to think we are. So they don't know 704 00:25:57,345 --> 00:25:59,505 that we're that shameful person that we think 705 00:25:59,505 --> 00:26:00,164 we are. 706 00:26:00,705 --> 00:26:02,705 And most people think that who they really 707 00:26:02,705 --> 00:26:05,984 are is who they're afraid they are, which 708 00:26:05,984 --> 00:26:07,765 is the shame and the patterns. 709 00:26:08,464 --> 00:26:11,045 Andy, this is huge. Yeah. It's huge 710 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,440 To find out that who you are is 711 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:13,940 really 712 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,299 not who you're afraid you are and not 713 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,340 all the patterns 714 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,619 you've been acting out. So on some level, 715 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,660 who we are afraid we are 716 00:26:25,335 --> 00:26:27,654 is who we're trying to hide. That's one 717 00:26:27,654 --> 00:26:28,154 circle. 718 00:26:28,615 --> 00:26:31,434 And then the other circle is who we 719 00:26:31,654 --> 00:26:32,154 develop 720 00:26:32,615 --> 00:26:33,434 in reaction 721 00:26:34,134 --> 00:26:36,315 to who we're afraid we are. 722 00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:39,509 But that's the false self. That's another circle. 723 00:26:39,509 --> 00:26:41,849 Both those circles are not who we are. 724 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:44,630 We are instead this third circle, which is 725 00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:45,130 the 726 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:46,490 authentic, 727 00:26:47,349 --> 00:26:47,849 innocent, 728 00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:49,529 innately good, 729 00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:52,009 wise, whole being 730 00:26:52,565 --> 00:26:54,265 that is this third circle. 731 00:26:54,644 --> 00:26:56,884 Let's call it a little heart. A little 732 00:26:56,884 --> 00:26:57,384 heart. 733 00:26:58,325 --> 00:26:59,865 That's a nice visual. 734 00:27:00,325 --> 00:27:00,825 Yeah. 735 00:27:01,365 --> 00:27:02,105 Our essence 736 00:27:02,964 --> 00:27:04,664 is that heart centered, 737 00:27:05,204 --> 00:27:05,704 generous, 738 00:27:06,005 --> 00:27:06,505 loving, 739 00:27:06,884 --> 00:27:07,384 kind, 740 00:27:08,339 --> 00:27:08,839 spirit. 741 00:27:09,140 --> 00:27:11,220 So when you took the process, was there 742 00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:13,539 a negative love map, or was that developed 743 00:27:13,539 --> 00:27:14,279 more recently? 744 00:27:14,660 --> 00:27:17,000 No. There was no negative love map. 745 00:27:17,539 --> 00:27:20,359 I did just see that we've made the 746 00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:21,640 negative love 747 00:27:22,019 --> 00:27:22,519 syndrome, 748 00:27:23,140 --> 00:27:25,664 trademark. Well, I think that's been trademarked for 749 00:27:25,664 --> 00:27:28,224 a while. That's one of the intellectual properties 750 00:27:28,224 --> 00:27:29,045 of the process. 751 00:27:29,664 --> 00:27:30,325 This is 752 00:27:30,625 --> 00:27:33,585 really the first piece we deliver in every 753 00:27:33,585 --> 00:27:35,045 process. We have a welcome 754 00:27:35,424 --> 00:27:38,259 session, which is just sort of orients people 755 00:27:38,259 --> 00:27:40,359 to the work, each other, 756 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:43,700 the cycle of transformation. But, really, the first 757 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:47,059 foundational piece is the negative love syndrome talk. 758 00:27:47,059 --> 00:27:49,774 You often do it when you teach. I 759 00:27:49,774 --> 00:27:52,414 imagine Bob was pretty good given he sort 760 00:27:52,414 --> 00:27:55,214 of was the origin of this from his 761 00:27:55,214 --> 00:27:56,115 own essence. 762 00:27:56,815 --> 00:27:58,355 Well, I don't remember 763 00:27:59,294 --> 00:28:01,934 from my process if he gave the negative 764 00:28:01,934 --> 00:28:03,954 love talk or if someone else gave it. 765 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,079 We're going back thirty six years. Thirty six 766 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:09,960 years ago, Andy. Yeah. And I'm still learning 767 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,179 about the nuances 768 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:12,539 and the subtleties 769 00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:15,240 of negative love. Because on the face of 770 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,779 it, it looks pretty simple. 771 00:28:17,284 --> 00:28:19,605 You learn to be who you are from 772 00:28:19,605 --> 00:28:21,784 your parents. You take on their patterns 773 00:28:22,164 --> 00:28:24,105 or you rebel against their patterns. 774 00:28:25,204 --> 00:28:27,605 Neither of which means you're being yourself. It 775 00:28:27,605 --> 00:28:30,345 means you're either being them or not them. 776 00:28:30,869 --> 00:28:32,250 Now that's kinda binary, 777 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:35,450 but there's a lot of nuances and subtleties 778 00:28:35,509 --> 00:28:37,289 in how that shows up, 779 00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:38,970 how we might 780 00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:39,930 adapt, 781 00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:42,570 how a parent was 782 00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:45,130 to our particular circumstances 783 00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:47,974 in life. But there's still the connection. 784 00:28:49,075 --> 00:28:49,575 And, 785 00:28:49,955 --> 00:28:52,755 you know, I find different ways that, oh 786 00:28:52,755 --> 00:28:55,974 my goodness, I didn't quite see that connection 787 00:28:56,035 --> 00:28:56,535 before. 788 00:28:57,315 --> 00:28:59,894 You know, I just realized something recently about 789 00:29:00,130 --> 00:29:02,130 what happened when we moved when I was 790 00:29:02,130 --> 00:29:03,029 eight years old. 791 00:29:03,809 --> 00:29:06,150 There was no communication with me 792 00:29:06,769 --> 00:29:08,549 and how that impacted me. 793 00:29:08,849 --> 00:29:10,150 That just came up recently. 794 00:29:11,329 --> 00:29:11,829 So 795 00:29:12,244 --> 00:29:15,045 to be open to to continuing to learn 796 00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:15,785 about this 797 00:29:16,484 --> 00:29:18,265 and find ways in which 798 00:29:18,884 --> 00:29:21,684 negative love limits my life is really a 799 00:29:21,684 --> 00:29:22,184 gift, 800 00:29:22,644 --> 00:29:24,329 even though it's uncomfortable sometimes. 801 00:29:24,809 --> 00:29:27,210 You know, Andy, when you talk here, part 802 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:28,649 of what I hear you doing is doing 803 00:29:28,649 --> 00:29:30,589 a little bit of time travel. 804 00:29:31,210 --> 00:29:34,190 You're in the present, but you're also willing 805 00:29:34,809 --> 00:29:37,455 to remember the past. And so many 806 00:29:37,994 --> 00:29:39,674 people say, oh, is it why is it 807 00:29:39,674 --> 00:29:42,394 always about childhood? I I healed my childhood, 808 00:29:42,394 --> 00:29:44,494 or I don't have any issues from childhood. 809 00:29:45,035 --> 00:29:45,535 But 810 00:29:45,835 --> 00:29:47,674 part of what I hear from you is 811 00:29:47,674 --> 00:29:48,975 a real openness, 812 00:29:49,674 --> 00:29:50,414 a curiosity, 813 00:29:51,420 --> 00:29:54,320 a willingness to allow the past 814 00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:58,140 to inform your present, allow what happened in 815 00:29:58,140 --> 00:29:59,980 the past that it still lives in your 816 00:29:59,980 --> 00:30:00,480 body, 817 00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:03,519 and it obviously has some 818 00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:06,480 effect on what's happening today. 819 00:30:07,144 --> 00:30:09,384 That's pretty cool. And the intention is to 820 00:30:09,384 --> 00:30:11,724 get freer and have more choices in life 821 00:30:11,784 --> 00:30:13,565 even at 77 years old. 822 00:30:14,264 --> 00:30:15,404 We go back 823 00:30:15,865 --> 00:30:18,424 not to be stuck there, but actually with 824 00:30:18,424 --> 00:30:20,504 the intention to be even more free of 825 00:30:20,504 --> 00:30:23,730 it. Good point. Well said. Well, you you 826 00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:26,130 said it. I mean, we're not just navel 827 00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:27,509 gazing or indulging, 828 00:30:28,130 --> 00:30:30,529 but you're really doing it because you wanna 829 00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:32,230 show up more alive 830 00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:34,390 even at 77. 831 00:30:34,690 --> 00:30:35,190 Absolutely. 832 00:30:35,974 --> 00:30:39,015 How is life at 77? You've been teaching 833 00:30:39,015 --> 00:30:41,914 for so many years. You're down in Mexico 834 00:30:42,055 --> 00:30:43,035 with your wife. 835 00:30:43,575 --> 00:30:46,555 How are things going in this aliveness journey? 836 00:30:46,695 --> 00:30:48,295 I would say my life is the best 837 00:30:48,295 --> 00:30:49,275 that's ever been. 838 00:30:49,690 --> 00:30:52,970 Seriously? Yeah. On so many levels. I mean, 839 00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:54,029 I'm not physically 840 00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:57,150 as limber as I used to be, which 841 00:30:57,289 --> 00:30:59,289 has been showing up at my table tennis 842 00:30:59,289 --> 00:31:03,130 club. But the expansion in consciousness and the 843 00:31:03,130 --> 00:31:03,630 ability 844 00:31:04,035 --> 00:31:05,255 to be present, 845 00:31:06,275 --> 00:31:08,994 to open my heart to my wife and 846 00:31:08,994 --> 00:31:09,734 my friends 847 00:31:10,434 --> 00:31:11,494 and my colleagues, 848 00:31:12,755 --> 00:31:14,055 that keeps expanding 849 00:31:14,835 --> 00:31:15,974 and to keep learning. 850 00:31:16,755 --> 00:31:18,994 I mean, right now, Jonin and I are 851 00:31:18,994 --> 00:31:19,494 doing 852 00:31:20,049 --> 00:31:22,710 a course with Terry Reel from the Relational 853 00:31:22,769 --> 00:31:23,589 Life Institute 854 00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:25,910 on couples therapy 855 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:28,450 because we feel like, you know, we've both 856 00:31:28,450 --> 00:31:31,089 been interested in couples therapy and work both 857 00:31:31,089 --> 00:31:32,950 individually and together on that. 858 00:31:33,375 --> 00:31:35,454 And we feel he has a way of 859 00:31:35,454 --> 00:31:37,775 approaching it that really resonates with us. So 860 00:31:37,775 --> 00:31:40,515 we're doing online courses with him. 861 00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:43,214 I imagine that benefits both your marriage, but 862 00:31:43,214 --> 00:31:46,335 also something you guys wanna bring into your 863 00:31:46,335 --> 00:31:49,470 practice in working with couples. Right. Beautiful. 864 00:31:49,850 --> 00:31:52,670 And table tennis, another word for ping pong. 865 00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:54,970 Wait a minute. Big difference, Drew. Well, what 866 00:31:54,970 --> 00:31:57,230 is the difference? Talk to me. Well, technically, 867 00:31:57,450 --> 00:31:58,910 the difference is spin. 868 00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:01,694 But the way we do it is, like, 869 00:32:01,694 --> 00:32:03,694 there's a couple of us who are really 870 00:32:03,694 --> 00:32:05,634 into improving and competing. 871 00:32:06,174 --> 00:32:07,794 We table tennis players 872 00:32:08,255 --> 00:32:09,554 are a lot more intense 873 00:32:10,174 --> 00:32:11,634 than the ping pong players. 874 00:32:12,014 --> 00:32:14,014 I did hear it's so good for your 875 00:32:14,014 --> 00:32:16,610 brain, isn't it, as you age? It's supposed 876 00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:18,470 to be one of the best activities 877 00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:20,549 for body mind. 878 00:32:21,170 --> 00:32:21,670 Andy, 879 00:32:21,970 --> 00:32:24,450 for all of this negative love talk and 880 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:25,830 for getting a chance to 881 00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:29,085 talk with you, you're teaching less, but 882 00:32:29,484 --> 00:32:31,325 we're on the calendar for later in the 883 00:32:31,325 --> 00:32:33,884 year. I'm looking forward to that. Thank you 884 00:32:33,884 --> 00:32:35,744 very much. Really appreciate this. 885 00:32:47,579 --> 00:32:49,839 Thank you for listening to the Hoffman podcast. 886 00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:52,299 My name is Matt Brannigan. I'm the CEO 887 00:32:52,299 --> 00:32:55,099 of the Hoffman Institute Foundation and a Hoffman 888 00:32:55,099 --> 00:32:57,954 teacher. Our mission is to provide greater access 889 00:32:57,954 --> 00:33:00,355 to the wisdom and power of love within 890 00:33:00,355 --> 00:33:02,055 ourselves, in our relationships, 891 00:33:02,515 --> 00:33:03,494 and in the world. 892 00:33:03,795 --> 00:33:06,134 To learn more or to support our mission, 893 00:33:06,195 --> 00:33:09,494 we invite you to visit hoffmaninstitute.org.