1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,199 I think that's the work to hold the 2 00:00:03,199 --> 00:00:03,699 paradoxes, 3 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:05,299 to hold 4 00:00:05,839 --> 00:00:08,419 the brutal realities of life and 5 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:09,779 the beautiful 6 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:10,740 ones 7 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:12,500 and and the same 8 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:14,099 open palm. 9 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:18,625 Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought 10 00:00:18,625 --> 00:00:20,864 to you by the Hoffman Institute. I'm Drew 11 00:00:20,864 --> 00:00:22,484 Horning, host of this episode. 12 00:00:23,024 --> 00:00:24,704 And today, we're speaking with a guest who 13 00:00:24,704 --> 00:00:26,945 is not a graduate of the Hoffman process, 14 00:00:26,945 --> 00:00:27,445 but 15 00:00:27,989 --> 00:00:31,109 whose life's work is harmonious with the work, 16 00:00:31,109 --> 00:00:32,890 the ethos of the process. 17 00:00:33,429 --> 00:00:35,350 Please keep in mind that the views and 18 00:00:35,350 --> 00:00:37,530 ideas expressed don't necessarily 19 00:00:37,829 --> 00:00:40,170 represent the views of the Institute. However, 20 00:00:40,630 --> 00:00:42,809 we do think you'll find this conversation interesting, 21 00:00:56,045 --> 00:00:57,344 Hey, everybody. Welcome. 22 00:00:57,939 --> 00:01:01,059 Suleikha Jawad is with us. Did I pronounce 23 00:01:01,059 --> 00:01:03,799 the last name right? You pronounced it perfectly. 24 00:01:03,939 --> 00:01:04,760 Hi, everyone. 25 00:01:05,459 --> 00:01:07,780 I love that your parents had different accents. 26 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:10,500 So one sounded like Suleikha and the other 27 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:11,640 sounded like Suleikha. 28 00:01:12,085 --> 00:01:14,585 That's right. And sometimes it sounds like Zuleija 29 00:01:15,125 --> 00:01:15,944 and Sulaika. 30 00:01:16,564 --> 00:01:18,885 That's the joy and confusion of growing up 31 00:01:18,885 --> 00:01:20,344 in an interfaith, 32 00:01:21,365 --> 00:01:22,585 interracial household. 33 00:01:23,444 --> 00:01:25,924 Yeah. So right before we push record, you 34 00:01:25,924 --> 00:01:26,984 acknowledge that 35 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:28,879 you haven't done the process 36 00:01:29,819 --> 00:01:32,459 and, you don't know anything about it and 37 00:01:32,459 --> 00:01:35,099 hope that's okay. And I said, wow, Suleikha. 38 00:01:35,099 --> 00:01:36,700 I think the way in which you live 39 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:38,959 your life is deeply reflective 40 00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:41,594 of what the process is. 41 00:01:41,974 --> 00:01:43,575 And so we'll talk a little bit about 42 00:01:43,575 --> 00:01:46,634 that, make that connection between so many things. 43 00:01:47,334 --> 00:01:50,134 Really excited for this conversation. Thanks for taking 44 00:01:50,134 --> 00:01:51,834 the time to join us. 45 00:01:52,150 --> 00:01:54,310 I'm so excited to get to be here 46 00:01:54,310 --> 00:01:55,930 with you. And despite 47 00:01:56,390 --> 00:01:58,569 knowing nothing about the process, 48 00:01:59,030 --> 00:02:02,390 Hoffman has very much been on my mind 49 00:02:02,390 --> 00:02:05,289 these last couple of months, because several people 50 00:02:05,924 --> 00:02:07,685 who are very close to me and in 51 00:02:07,685 --> 00:02:08,344 my orbit 52 00:02:08,724 --> 00:02:09,864 have gone to Hoffman. 53 00:02:10,485 --> 00:02:13,525 And so I've been hearing little bits and 54 00:02:13,525 --> 00:02:16,084 pieces, and and I'm very intrigued and and 55 00:02:16,084 --> 00:02:19,020 really excited to learn more. And I'm grateful 56 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,840 to my sister who turned me on to 57 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,379 your column years ago. 58 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:23,419 You've written 59 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:25,020 best selling books, 60 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,099 Between Two Kingdoms, 61 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:30,794 New York Times best selling books. And we're 62 00:02:30,794 --> 00:02:32,014 here in part because, 63 00:02:32,635 --> 00:02:33,375 Matt Heinemann 64 00:02:33,754 --> 00:02:36,474 is a grad and connected us together, and 65 00:02:36,474 --> 00:02:37,534 he was the director 66 00:02:38,235 --> 00:02:39,694 of American Symphony 67 00:02:40,635 --> 00:02:41,854 and this incredible 68 00:02:42,155 --> 00:02:44,094 documentary that cataloged 69 00:02:44,555 --> 00:02:45,854 a powerful time 70 00:02:46,629 --> 00:02:48,489 where you were going through 71 00:02:49,269 --> 00:02:49,930 your treatment, 72 00:02:50,229 --> 00:02:53,930 and John, your husband, was receiving accolades 73 00:02:54,229 --> 00:02:54,729 and 74 00:02:55,189 --> 00:02:55,689 Grammys 75 00:02:56,709 --> 00:02:59,370 and conducting his American Symphony. 76 00:03:00,235 --> 00:03:02,474 It's a beautiful documentary for those of you 77 00:03:02,474 --> 00:03:03,694 that haven't seen it. 78 00:03:04,235 --> 00:03:06,574 That project was such an interesting one. 79 00:03:06,955 --> 00:03:09,514 John and I, we've known each other since 80 00:03:09,514 --> 00:03:11,375 we were teenagers. We met at Bandcamp. 81 00:03:11,914 --> 00:03:13,294 We're really at this, 82 00:03:13,889 --> 00:03:15,889 what felt like a real peak in our 83 00:03:15,889 --> 00:03:16,389 lives. 84 00:03:16,769 --> 00:03:18,610 I was 33 at the time. John was 85 00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:20,389 going to be 34, 35. 86 00:03:20,689 --> 00:03:23,829 Things were really coming together for us. Our 87 00:03:23,969 --> 00:03:24,469 careers 88 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:25,590 were going 89 00:03:25,905 --> 00:03:28,405 better than we possibly could have dreamed of. 90 00:03:28,704 --> 00:03:29,204 John 91 00:03:29,584 --> 00:03:32,965 was the band leader on The Late Show. 92 00:03:33,264 --> 00:03:34,944 I had just come out with this book, 93 00:03:34,944 --> 00:03:37,504 and I was touring it all around and 94 00:03:37,504 --> 00:03:38,004 writing 95 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:41,780 a weekly newsletter on Substack, long before Substack 96 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,780 was a sort of household name. 97 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,480 And we were as in love as we'd 98 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,980 ever been and really dreaming about the future. 99 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:51,219 All of that 100 00:03:52,135 --> 00:03:52,635 came 101 00:03:53,814 --> 00:03:56,395 crashing down in the moment that I learned 102 00:03:56,534 --> 00:03:59,014 that the leukemia I'd first been diagnosed with 103 00:03:59,014 --> 00:03:59,995 at 22 104 00:04:00,375 --> 00:04:01,194 was back. 105 00:04:01,495 --> 00:04:03,435 And so what happened next 106 00:04:04,055 --> 00:04:05,915 was, yes, a kind of 107 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:07,139 cataloging 108 00:04:07,759 --> 00:04:10,800 of those months and of John's attempt to, 109 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,719 in spite of everything we were going through, 110 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:13,620 to put together 111 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:15,379 a literal symphony, 112 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:16,660 a reimagination 113 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,399 of what the American Symphony might look like 114 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:21,779 in the twenty first century. 115 00:04:22,295 --> 00:04:23,995 But, personally, we were really 116 00:04:24,535 --> 00:04:25,834 living through the movements 117 00:04:26,214 --> 00:04:27,754 of the symphony of life. 118 00:04:28,455 --> 00:04:29,675 I think about words. 119 00:04:30,134 --> 00:04:31,435 What does it mean to 120 00:04:31,735 --> 00:04:34,154 use words and string words together 121 00:04:34,910 --> 00:04:36,209 and use metaphor 122 00:04:36,589 --> 00:04:39,730 and create sentences and paragraphs and 123 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:41,410 and share them 124 00:04:41,790 --> 00:04:42,290 verbally 125 00:04:42,910 --> 00:04:44,129 and on the page? 126 00:04:44,910 --> 00:04:48,290 Sulayka, you have this beautiful ability to 127 00:04:48,615 --> 00:04:51,514 string sentences together that illustrate 128 00:04:51,894 --> 00:04:52,394 something 129 00:04:53,735 --> 00:04:56,295 so powerful. Has that always been a part 130 00:04:56,295 --> 00:04:59,654 of who you are? Whether it's writing or 131 00:04:59,654 --> 00:05:00,154 speaking, 132 00:05:00,855 --> 00:05:02,954 it seems like words are your friend. 133 00:05:04,370 --> 00:05:07,329 I think I've always been obsessed with words 134 00:05:07,329 --> 00:05:08,069 and language, 135 00:05:09,089 --> 00:05:11,189 not because they were my friend, 136 00:05:11,649 --> 00:05:14,449 but because they were a real source of 137 00:05:14,449 --> 00:05:17,004 struggle for me early on. My dad is 138 00:05:17,004 --> 00:05:17,824 from Tunisia. 139 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:19,644 My mom is from the French part of 140 00:05:19,644 --> 00:05:20,144 Switzerland. 141 00:05:21,084 --> 00:05:24,285 We moved maybe a dozen times on three 142 00:05:24,285 --> 00:05:26,044 different continents by the time I was 10 143 00:05:26,044 --> 00:05:26,865 years old. 144 00:05:27,324 --> 00:05:29,504 And so I grew up 145 00:05:29,879 --> 00:05:32,680 as what some people describe as a third 146 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,199 culture kid. I have three passports, but felt 147 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:39,100 like I belonged and fit in nowhere. 148 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:41,660 I spoke three languages 149 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:43,639 by the time I was six years old, 150 00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:45,185 but couldn't spell 151 00:05:45,485 --> 00:05:48,865 or string together a grammatical sentence in any. 152 00:05:49,324 --> 00:05:51,585 And I often felt caught 153 00:05:51,964 --> 00:05:55,324 between kingdoms and this sort of liminal space 154 00:05:55,324 --> 00:05:59,300 where I really struggled to figure out who 155 00:05:59,300 --> 00:06:01,160 I was and, and how 156 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:02,439 to conjure 157 00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:04,920 a sense of identity 158 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:07,480 that I could translate. 159 00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:09,620 I think like a lot of kids who 160 00:06:09,620 --> 00:06:12,100 grew up this way, I was an expert 161 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:14,439 chameleon. I could shape shift and 162 00:06:14,975 --> 00:06:16,355 scan a cafeteria 163 00:06:16,735 --> 00:06:19,394 at a school and immediately figure out 164 00:06:20,014 --> 00:06:22,574 who to avoid and who to align myself 165 00:06:22,574 --> 00:06:24,654 with, and, you know, as a form of 166 00:06:24,654 --> 00:06:25,154 survival. 167 00:06:26,014 --> 00:06:29,520 But what was harder than adapting was finding 168 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:30,980 that through line of self 169 00:06:31,439 --> 00:06:32,100 and finding 170 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,139 the language 171 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:34,660 to 172 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:35,860 express 173 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,379 who it is that I was to myself. 174 00:06:40,214 --> 00:06:41,514 And so, you know, from 175 00:06:41,974 --> 00:06:43,814 the time I could hold a pen, I 176 00:06:43,814 --> 00:06:45,115 started keeping journals. 177 00:06:45,654 --> 00:06:46,875 And I remember 178 00:06:47,254 --> 00:06:50,694 keeping journals, right, right down lists of words 179 00:06:50,694 --> 00:06:51,514 and colloquialisms 180 00:06:52,055 --> 00:06:53,894 that I heard at school, and then I 181 00:06:53,894 --> 00:06:56,960 try to incorporate them in conversation as much 182 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,400 as possible until they sounded somewhat organic and 183 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,560 effortless. And so I think I was a 184 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:03,060 student 185 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:04,819 of language and of words 186 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,100 from a very early age 187 00:07:08,685 --> 00:07:11,504 because they were a real source of strife. 188 00:07:11,645 --> 00:07:12,145 And 189 00:07:12,524 --> 00:07:13,425 I was determined 190 00:07:14,444 --> 00:07:14,944 to 191 00:07:15,485 --> 00:07:17,105 figure out how to translate 192 00:07:17,805 --> 00:07:18,305 myself 193 00:07:18,845 --> 00:07:19,345 and 194 00:07:20,125 --> 00:07:22,285 to find a sense of belonging in the 195 00:07:22,285 --> 00:07:23,339 world around me. 196 00:07:23,740 --> 00:07:24,399 I'm thinking 197 00:07:25,180 --> 00:07:25,759 about Tunisiana. 198 00:07:27,899 --> 00:07:29,899 Can you I mean, there's a a just 199 00:07:29,899 --> 00:07:30,959 a fresh example 200 00:07:31,339 --> 00:07:34,479 of using words and creating words that reflect 201 00:07:34,860 --> 00:07:37,355 the important space you're in. Share a little 202 00:07:37,355 --> 00:07:39,754 bit about that. So, you know, my husband, 203 00:07:39,754 --> 00:07:41,215 John, is from New Orleans. 204 00:07:41,995 --> 00:07:44,335 Tunisia is my fatherland. 205 00:07:45,355 --> 00:07:48,254 When we moved into our first home together, 206 00:07:48,875 --> 00:07:49,375 I 207 00:07:49,754 --> 00:07:50,254 approached 208 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,699 this home as if it was 209 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,139 the most important creative project I'd ever undertaken. 210 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,800 And I was so excited, especially having felt 211 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,600 such a sense of upheaval as a kid 212 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,060 to have one physical 213 00:08:05,654 --> 00:08:07,814 address to call my own. I never had 214 00:08:07,814 --> 00:08:10,214 that before, and it felt like such a 215 00:08:10,214 --> 00:08:10,714 novelty 216 00:08:11,415 --> 00:08:12,314 and a real 217 00:08:12,774 --> 00:08:15,254 kind of anchor that I'd yearned for for 218 00:08:15,254 --> 00:08:15,995 so long. 219 00:08:16,375 --> 00:08:18,634 And so as I was going about 220 00:08:19,289 --> 00:08:19,789 dreaming 221 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:22,490 up this house, I really wanted it to 222 00:08:22,490 --> 00:08:24,250 feel not just like a house, but a 223 00:08:24,250 --> 00:08:24,750 home 224 00:08:25,449 --> 00:08:26,990 and a manifestation 225 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:28,750 of 226 00:08:29,930 --> 00:08:30,669 our relationship 227 00:08:31,370 --> 00:08:32,669 and our 228 00:08:33,044 --> 00:08:33,784 separate identities, 229 00:08:34,164 --> 00:08:34,985 and hopefully, 230 00:08:36,325 --> 00:08:39,205 the braid of those identities and that kind 231 00:08:39,205 --> 00:08:40,504 of shared Francophone 232 00:08:41,524 --> 00:08:42,024 African 233 00:08:42,325 --> 00:08:45,125 lineage that we both have, and two, a 234 00:08:45,125 --> 00:08:45,945 third relationship, 235 00:08:46,644 --> 00:08:47,429 a kind of 236 00:08:47,909 --> 00:08:48,409 manifestation 237 00:08:48,789 --> 00:08:49,529 of us. 238 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:51,509 And so I came up with the word, 239 00:08:51,509 --> 00:08:52,649 Tunisia, Tunisia, 240 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:53,450 Louisiana, 241 00:08:54,230 --> 00:08:56,169 to describe that whole approach. 242 00:08:57,110 --> 00:09:00,230 Beautiful. I mentioned my sister connected me to 243 00:09:00,230 --> 00:09:02,675 your work, and she said, Sulayka is going 244 00:09:02,675 --> 00:09:04,995 on a book tour. I got you tickets. 245 00:09:04,995 --> 00:09:05,495 So 246 00:09:05,875 --> 00:09:07,335 I'm sitting in LA 247 00:09:07,715 --> 00:09:08,855 in the auditorium, 248 00:09:09,315 --> 00:09:12,455 and you are reading, and John is playing, 249 00:09:12,595 --> 00:09:14,995 and then you pull out your bass, your 250 00:09:14,995 --> 00:09:16,615 stand up bass, and you start 251 00:09:17,159 --> 00:09:19,019 playing that. How was that 252 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,339 tour for you and John 253 00:09:21,959 --> 00:09:24,759 to have this shared experience of bringing your 254 00:09:24,759 --> 00:09:26,220 creativity to the world? 255 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,759 I had no idea you were there. It 256 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:29,259 was 257 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:30,220 extraordinary, 258 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,295 and it was terrifying for me. You know, 259 00:09:33,295 --> 00:09:35,315 there's a reason I picked a profession 260 00:09:35,695 --> 00:09:36,995 where I get to spend 261 00:09:37,535 --> 00:09:40,495 vast amounts of time alone with books and 262 00:09:40,495 --> 00:09:43,215 my laptop. And so I've always been someone 263 00:09:43,215 --> 00:09:44,514 who's far more comfortable 264 00:09:44,894 --> 00:09:45,875 behind the scenes 265 00:09:46,575 --> 00:09:47,075 than 266 00:09:47,610 --> 00:09:49,870 in front of the camera or on stage. 267 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:52,009 And even, you know, in my early years 268 00:09:52,009 --> 00:09:54,009 where I did play the bass, I, I 269 00:09:54,009 --> 00:09:56,649 was a classical double bass player, but I 270 00:09:56,649 --> 00:09:58,669 performed in the context of an orchestra, 271 00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:00,350 which was an organism 272 00:10:01,049 --> 00:10:03,264 where you're maybe a crucial part of it, 273 00:10:03,264 --> 00:10:05,425 but you're also a tiny, tiny part of 274 00:10:05,425 --> 00:10:07,665 the larger thing. And it's not you by 275 00:10:07,665 --> 00:10:09,285 yourself being out there. 276 00:10:09,665 --> 00:10:12,785 But when I wrote my most recent book, 277 00:10:12,785 --> 00:10:13,764 The Book of Alchemy, 278 00:10:14,144 --> 00:10:15,125 which is really 279 00:10:15,504 --> 00:10:16,325 an exploration 280 00:10:16,945 --> 00:10:17,445 of 281 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:19,389 this practice 282 00:10:19,850 --> 00:10:21,709 of journaling that has 283 00:10:22,089 --> 00:10:22,589 been 284 00:10:23,129 --> 00:10:23,629 the 285 00:10:24,009 --> 00:10:24,509 chrysalis 286 00:10:24,970 --> 00:10:27,709 for all of my most important transformations, 287 00:10:28,409 --> 00:10:28,909 and 288 00:10:29,690 --> 00:10:32,329 has really saved my life more times than 289 00:10:32,329 --> 00:10:32,829 once, 290 00:10:33,204 --> 00:10:34,825 and more generally an exploration 291 00:10:35,524 --> 00:10:38,404 of the value of cultivating a creative practice 292 00:10:38,404 --> 00:10:40,084 in our life, whether you think of yourself 293 00:10:40,084 --> 00:10:40,825 as creative 294 00:10:41,445 --> 00:10:43,065 or not. I started 295 00:10:43,605 --> 00:10:44,584 to think about 296 00:10:44,884 --> 00:10:47,990 how, not just to talk about it, but 297 00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:50,470 to enact it, and to walk the walk. 298 00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:51,769 And so John, 299 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:54,470 who, you know, this book is dedicated to 300 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:56,570 him and and to me has always been 301 00:10:56,950 --> 00:10:57,929 such an embodiment 302 00:10:58,309 --> 00:11:00,089 of the notion of creative alchemy, 303 00:11:00,789 --> 00:11:02,089 of transforming 304 00:11:03,504 --> 00:11:05,204 something maybe considered 305 00:11:05,745 --> 00:11:08,644 base or worthless, like lead, into something precious, 306 00:11:09,024 --> 00:11:09,764 like gold. 307 00:11:10,784 --> 00:11:13,824 And we started to dream about doing that 308 00:11:13,824 --> 00:11:15,985 together and what that might look like. You 309 00:11:15,985 --> 00:11:18,509 know, one of the things that's very important 310 00:11:18,509 --> 00:11:20,190 to me in my own creative practice and 311 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:22,049 that I write about in the book is 312 00:11:22,190 --> 00:11:24,049 the permission to be a bad artist, 313 00:11:24,509 --> 00:11:25,009 to 314 00:11:25,389 --> 00:11:27,870 cultivate a creative practice without a goal in 315 00:11:27,870 --> 00:11:30,829 mind, but just to do it because it 316 00:11:30,829 --> 00:11:31,809 pushes you 317 00:11:32,355 --> 00:11:36,514 to experiment and to play and to expand 318 00:11:36,514 --> 00:11:38,195 what you think of as possible. And so 319 00:11:38,195 --> 00:11:38,855 as part 320 00:11:39,235 --> 00:11:40,995 of that challenge, John said, well, why don't 321 00:11:40,995 --> 00:11:42,834 you walk the walk? And why don't you 322 00:11:42,834 --> 00:11:44,834 do something you're not very comfortable doing and 323 00:11:44,834 --> 00:11:47,075 haven't done in years and dust off your 324 00:11:47,075 --> 00:11:48,709 base and get on 325 00:11:49,169 --> 00:11:52,389 stage? To which I was like, absolutely not. 326 00:11:53,169 --> 00:11:54,850 There is no way I'm doing that. That 327 00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:57,009 sounds way too scary. It's one thing to 328 00:11:57,009 --> 00:11:59,509 be a bad artist in private. It's another 329 00:11:59,649 --> 00:12:01,089 to do it on stage in front of 330 00:12:01,089 --> 00:12:03,029 hundreds or or thousands of people. 331 00:12:03,434 --> 00:12:03,934 So 332 00:12:04,394 --> 00:12:06,894 in short, it was an alchemical 333 00:12:08,554 --> 00:12:11,434 experience for me. Night after night in front 334 00:12:11,434 --> 00:12:12,735 of thousands of people, 335 00:12:13,754 --> 00:12:14,254 I 336 00:12:14,715 --> 00:12:15,695 got up there 337 00:12:16,059 --> 00:12:18,879 and really pushed myself to go beyond 338 00:12:19,259 --> 00:12:19,759 myself 339 00:12:20,779 --> 00:12:22,639 to do something I'm 340 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:23,600 incredibly 341 00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:26,480 uncomfortable with and 342 00:12:28,220 --> 00:12:28,720 to 343 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:30,320 do it anyway, 344 00:12:31,134 --> 00:12:33,394 because it was interesting 345 00:12:34,174 --> 00:12:35,075 and expansive 346 00:12:35,855 --> 00:12:37,075 and playful. 347 00:12:37,774 --> 00:12:38,274 And 348 00:12:39,054 --> 00:12:40,195 what better way 349 00:12:40,654 --> 00:12:41,154 to 350 00:12:41,774 --> 00:12:43,794 talk about the mission of 351 00:12:44,259 --> 00:12:47,000 a book than to actually embody it? 352 00:12:47,459 --> 00:12:47,959 Yeah. 353 00:12:48,339 --> 00:12:50,100 You know, in the process, we have what 354 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:51,879 we call a cycle of transformation, 355 00:12:52,259 --> 00:12:54,039 which is sort of the overlay 356 00:12:54,740 --> 00:12:57,220 of everything we do during the week. And 357 00:12:57,220 --> 00:12:58,519 the first step is awareness, 358 00:12:59,225 --> 00:13:01,085 and the second step is expression. 359 00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:05,065 And there are moments where writing is a 360 00:13:05,065 --> 00:13:06,045 huge part 361 00:13:06,425 --> 00:13:08,345 of the week, so much so that people 362 00:13:08,345 --> 00:13:10,665 are like, I've never written so much since 363 00:13:10,665 --> 00:13:13,805 grade school, and their hands are cramping up. 364 00:13:14,259 --> 00:13:17,459 You talk about low stakes, and I hear 365 00:13:17,459 --> 00:13:19,959 it. If we step away from the performative 366 00:13:20,179 --> 00:13:21,799 piece of it, the evaluative 367 00:13:22,259 --> 00:13:24,579 piece of it, and go for the low 368 00:13:24,579 --> 00:13:25,559 stakes expression, 369 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:28,695 it was one of those evenings where by 370 00:13:28,695 --> 00:13:31,355 the end, everybody around you is, like, bonded, 371 00:13:32,055 --> 00:13:34,774 all these strangers being a part of the 372 00:13:34,774 --> 00:13:37,014 energy that you and John created on stage. 373 00:13:37,014 --> 00:13:39,735 But one moment in particular was when you 374 00:13:39,735 --> 00:13:42,075 quoted Eudora Welty by saying, 375 00:13:42,579 --> 00:13:45,879 when you confront an experience, there's something beautiful 376 00:13:46,019 --> 00:13:47,480 about confronting experience 377 00:13:48,019 --> 00:13:50,659 and resolving it as art. Would that be 378 00:13:50,659 --> 00:13:51,480 your tattoo? 379 00:13:52,419 --> 00:13:54,579 Yes. Yeah. It's one of my very favorite 380 00:13:54,579 --> 00:13:56,820 lines. If I had tattoos, that would be 381 00:13:56,820 --> 00:13:57,720 one of them. 382 00:13:58,205 --> 00:13:59,985 I have a whole constellation 383 00:14:00,365 --> 00:14:03,404 of Post it notes above my desk, lines 384 00:14:03,404 --> 00:14:05,904 from various writers and artists and thinkers 385 00:14:06,284 --> 00:14:08,284 that will not tattooed on my body. I 386 00:14:08,284 --> 00:14:10,764 want tattooed on my memory. And that's one 387 00:14:10,764 --> 00:14:11,424 of them. 388 00:14:11,929 --> 00:14:13,529 You know, we live in a culture that's 389 00:14:13,529 --> 00:14:14,669 so obsessed, 390 00:14:15,129 --> 00:14:16,509 not just with productivity, 391 00:14:17,610 --> 00:14:18,350 but with 392 00:14:18,730 --> 00:14:19,230 performance, 393 00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:21,149 that I think 394 00:14:21,529 --> 00:14:23,309 even when you attempt 395 00:14:24,024 --> 00:14:26,985 to do something just for yourself, there's something 396 00:14:26,985 --> 00:14:29,865 so insidious about those forces that it's hard 397 00:14:29,865 --> 00:14:32,184 to quiet the chatter, the outside chatter, to 398 00:14:32,184 --> 00:14:33,245 quiet the noise. 399 00:14:34,264 --> 00:14:36,504 I am someone who cannot write at my 400 00:14:36,504 --> 00:14:39,164 laptop because my laptop is where 401 00:14:39,639 --> 00:14:41,720 I receive emails, and where I read the 402 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,879 news, and where I do my taxes, and 403 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:45,100 so many things happen 404 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:47,959 on my laptop. There's so much chatter. There's 405 00:14:47,959 --> 00:14:49,419 so much outside noise 406 00:14:49,879 --> 00:14:52,139 that in order to trick my brain 407 00:14:52,674 --> 00:14:55,095 into a space of privacy, 408 00:14:55,554 --> 00:14:56,455 of writing 409 00:14:56,835 --> 00:14:59,475 without a goal in mind, or without the 410 00:14:59,475 --> 00:14:59,975 fear 411 00:15:00,355 --> 00:15:02,855 of an audience or some onlooker, 412 00:15:03,554 --> 00:15:04,915 I have to do it by hand. I 413 00:15:04,915 --> 00:15:06,934 have to do it in my journal. 414 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:10,399 And what that means is that everything I've 415 00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:11,940 ever written, including 416 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,240 my first book, which was, I think the 417 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,639 first draft was 500 pages, I I wrote 418 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:19,279 those early drafts in my journal. Because in 419 00:15:19,279 --> 00:15:21,779 order to give myself permission 420 00:15:23,254 --> 00:15:24,715 to write the truth 421 00:15:25,254 --> 00:15:26,315 without fearing 422 00:15:26,695 --> 00:15:28,455 what it would mean or how it would 423 00:15:28,455 --> 00:15:30,794 come off or how it might be perceived, 424 00:15:31,414 --> 00:15:33,754 I had to do it in this sacred 425 00:15:34,134 --> 00:15:34,634 container. 426 00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:37,409 I think when you're able 427 00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:39,490 to get rid of the stakes, 428 00:15:40,190 --> 00:15:41,970 when you're able to quiet 429 00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:43,490 the noise, 430 00:15:44,190 --> 00:15:45,009 and to 431 00:15:45,789 --> 00:15:49,495 sit down and take a breath and start 432 00:15:49,495 --> 00:15:52,394 writing, for me, that's the purest line 433 00:15:52,855 --> 00:15:53,835 to my intuition 434 00:15:54,295 --> 00:15:56,375 that I've been able to arrive at. And 435 00:15:56,375 --> 00:15:58,535 often, I start a sentence, or I start 436 00:15:58,535 --> 00:15:59,675 an entry thinking 437 00:16:00,149 --> 00:16:02,470 it's going one way, and I end up 438 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:03,610 being utterly 439 00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:05,449 surprised by what emerges. 440 00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:07,669 And I don't know what I'm thinking or 441 00:16:07,669 --> 00:16:08,169 feeling 442 00:16:08,549 --> 00:16:11,610 often until I write it down. You've mentioned, 443 00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:13,865 and we talk about this at the beginning 444 00:16:13,865 --> 00:16:15,544 of the week, the very first day, we 445 00:16:15,544 --> 00:16:16,044 contrast 446 00:16:16,504 --> 00:16:17,004 surrender 447 00:16:17,625 --> 00:16:19,705 because part of what I hear you not 448 00:16:19,705 --> 00:16:21,945 just use the word surrender, but that's an 449 00:16:21,945 --> 00:16:23,404 actual act of surrender. 450 00:16:23,865 --> 00:16:25,384 I don't know where this is gonna go. 451 00:16:25,384 --> 00:16:26,365 I'm gonna surrender 452 00:16:26,745 --> 00:16:27,644 to the experience, 453 00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:30,360 surrender to whatever emerges. 454 00:16:31,139 --> 00:16:33,160 And we contrast that with submission 455 00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:35,779 and how you can take the process in 456 00:16:35,779 --> 00:16:37,480 two different ways by submitting 457 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,120 to what's asked of you or surrendering 458 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:43,240 to whatever emerges inside of you, 459 00:16:43,664 --> 00:16:44,164 around 460 00:16:44,705 --> 00:16:46,705 you. And and will you share just a 461 00:16:46,705 --> 00:16:48,084 little bit about that 462 00:16:48,544 --> 00:16:51,284 act of surrender? I know it's not easy, 463 00:16:51,825 --> 00:16:55,184 but there's something that you are deeply committed 464 00:16:55,184 --> 00:16:57,365 to in surrendering to the experience 465 00:16:58,144 --> 00:16:58,964 of it all. 466 00:16:59,319 --> 00:17:01,959 I'm deeply committed to it because I've had 467 00:17:01,959 --> 00:17:02,459 to 468 00:17:03,319 --> 00:17:05,179 surrender or maybe submit 469 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,539 by force 470 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,460 more times than I can count. 471 00:17:08,919 --> 00:17:10,059 And each time 472 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,419 within that 473 00:17:11,954 --> 00:17:12,694 plot twist, 474 00:17:13,154 --> 00:17:14,054 whether that's 475 00:17:14,515 --> 00:17:15,575 my first diagnosis 476 00:17:16,115 --> 00:17:18,595 with leukemia at 22, or, or the two 477 00:17:18,595 --> 00:17:21,095 relapses I've had since, or, you know, other 478 00:17:21,714 --> 00:17:22,214 moments 479 00:17:22,515 --> 00:17:24,275 in my life where it feels like the 480 00:17:24,275 --> 00:17:25,815 ceiling has caved in, 481 00:17:26,339 --> 00:17:27,240 when I'm able 482 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:28,599 to 483 00:17:29,779 --> 00:17:30,279 accept 484 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:31,640 that 485 00:17:32,339 --> 00:17:34,679 without trying to fight it, without trying 486 00:17:35,299 --> 00:17:35,799 to 487 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:37,480 numb 488 00:17:37,779 --> 00:17:39,079 myself to it, 489 00:17:39,404 --> 00:17:41,725 without trying to avoid it. When I'm able 490 00:17:41,725 --> 00:17:43,025 to behold it 491 00:17:43,404 --> 00:17:44,785 as a subject, 492 00:17:45,644 --> 00:17:46,144 it's 493 00:17:46,845 --> 00:17:48,065 ended up being 494 00:17:48,605 --> 00:17:49,345 one of 495 00:17:49,805 --> 00:17:50,865 the most creatively 496 00:17:51,725 --> 00:17:53,825 generative experiences of my life. 497 00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:54,950 I don't think 498 00:17:55,569 --> 00:17:58,230 I would have started writing had I not 499 00:17:58,529 --> 00:17:59,029 spent 500 00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:00,470 an entire 501 00:18:01,009 --> 00:18:01,509 year 502 00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:03,190 at 22 503 00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:07,269 shuttling between my childhood bedroom and the hospital 504 00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:08,950 fighting for my life. 505 00:18:09,835 --> 00:18:12,555 I would have gone to law school or 506 00:18:12,555 --> 00:18:14,555 done whatever it was I thought I should 507 00:18:14,555 --> 00:18:15,055 do 508 00:18:15,355 --> 00:18:15,855 before 509 00:18:16,475 --> 00:18:17,934 being forced to 510 00:18:19,035 --> 00:18:21,275 have the burden of choice removed from me, 511 00:18:21,275 --> 00:18:24,170 and and having the experience of being stripped 512 00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:25,470 down to my most 513 00:18:25,930 --> 00:18:27,069 laid bare self, 514 00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:29,789 and then surrendering to that, 515 00:18:30,410 --> 00:18:30,910 and 516 00:18:31,769 --> 00:18:32,670 getting curious 517 00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:33,630 about 518 00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:36,730 what that process was like, and what was 519 00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:38,269 possible within its limitations. 520 00:18:39,214 --> 00:18:42,095 I've done that again and again in my 521 00:18:42,095 --> 00:18:43,955 life. And each time 522 00:18:44,974 --> 00:18:46,434 it's yielded something 523 00:18:47,295 --> 00:18:48,515 utterly unexpected, 524 00:18:49,775 --> 00:18:50,595 and personally, 525 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:53,690 my own small way, extraordinary. 526 00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:56,250 And that's not to 527 00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:57,930 say 528 00:18:58,470 --> 00:18:59,210 that those 529 00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:00,250 experiences 530 00:19:00,710 --> 00:19:04,305 weren't profoundly traumatic. They were. Both are true. 531 00:19:04,384 --> 00:19:06,164 They were the worst experiences 532 00:19:06,625 --> 00:19:07,445 of my life. 533 00:19:07,985 --> 00:19:10,625 And the experience of being sick itself is 534 00:19:10,625 --> 00:19:12,085 not creatively generative. 535 00:19:12,705 --> 00:19:13,605 But the response 536 00:19:14,625 --> 00:19:15,605 to the experience 537 00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:19,125 of being sick is where I found 538 00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:20,440 my 539 00:19:20,819 --> 00:19:21,880 sense of agency 540 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:23,720 and power 541 00:19:24,339 --> 00:19:24,839 and 542 00:19:25,779 --> 00:19:27,240 a kind of wonder 543 00:19:27,619 --> 00:19:29,720 that surprised me again and again. 544 00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:31,559 Oh, wow. 545 00:19:32,019 --> 00:19:33,160 I'm thinking about 546 00:19:33,704 --> 00:19:34,444 the chemotherapy 547 00:19:35,304 --> 00:19:37,704 that caused you at times not to be 548 00:19:37,704 --> 00:19:38,605 able to see 549 00:19:39,384 --> 00:19:42,825 and to not be able to write. And 550 00:19:42,825 --> 00:19:43,325 instead, 551 00:19:44,184 --> 00:19:45,404 you take up painting 552 00:19:45,784 --> 00:19:47,164 in the hospital room 553 00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:49,679 not having any experience painting, 554 00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:53,740 and yet you pivot from that place and 555 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:55,039 paint some beautiful 556 00:19:55,339 --> 00:19:56,400 work eventually. 557 00:19:56,940 --> 00:19:57,839 What a beautiful 558 00:19:58,539 --> 00:19:59,419 experience to, 559 00:20:00,859 --> 00:20:01,839 confront something 560 00:20:02,545 --> 00:20:05,345 and resolve it as art. It really does 561 00:20:05,345 --> 00:20:07,184 feel like a kind of alchemy. It feels 562 00:20:07,184 --> 00:20:09,684 like a kind of magic to me. 563 00:20:10,464 --> 00:20:11,765 I'm going to 564 00:20:12,545 --> 00:20:13,045 paraphrase 565 00:20:13,424 --> 00:20:15,365 Terry Tempest Williams' line, but 566 00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:16,890 it's about arranging 567 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:18,650 the broken pieces 568 00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:21,430 as a sort of mosaic. In my work, 569 00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:22,170 that's maybe 570 00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:23,369 our collective 571 00:20:23,829 --> 00:20:24,890 forever work, 572 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:26,650 what we do 573 00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:28,570 when things fall apart. 574 00:20:29,775 --> 00:20:30,515 For me, 575 00:20:31,455 --> 00:20:35,215 reconceiving of, of survival as a creative act 576 00:20:35,215 --> 00:20:36,515 of taking 577 00:20:37,455 --> 00:20:38,275 those moments 578 00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:40,355 where things fall apart and 579 00:20:40,894 --> 00:20:41,394 refastening 580 00:20:41,775 --> 00:20:42,275 them 581 00:20:42,654 --> 00:20:43,154 into 582 00:20:44,669 --> 00:20:45,169 something 583 00:20:46,429 --> 00:20:48,129 has been my way of 584 00:20:48,429 --> 00:20:49,889 finding my way through. 585 00:20:50,429 --> 00:20:53,409 Yeah. You brought up Terry Tempest Williams, and, 586 00:20:53,629 --> 00:20:55,549 you know, one of the things about the 587 00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:56,929 book of alchemy is 588 00:20:57,474 --> 00:20:57,974 your 589 00:20:58,755 --> 00:21:01,894 deep commitment to elevating the voices of others, 590 00:21:01,954 --> 00:21:02,454 your 591 00:21:03,075 --> 00:21:03,575 collaboration, 592 00:21:03,954 --> 00:21:05,714 your desire to be a part of a 593 00:21:05,714 --> 00:21:06,214 team. 594 00:21:06,755 --> 00:21:09,734 I'm just inspired by the way in which 595 00:21:10,580 --> 00:21:12,519 sharing who you are is 596 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:15,799 something that you create in community. 597 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:18,740 You're so good at that. I imagine it's 598 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:20,980 important to you. The truth is I don't 599 00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:23,619 think I had much of a community until 600 00:21:23,619 --> 00:21:24,519 I got sick. 601 00:21:25,015 --> 00:21:26,794 In my younger years, 602 00:21:27,255 --> 00:21:29,255 I was a little bit of a hell 603 00:21:29,255 --> 00:21:32,214 raiser until I got sick. And, you know, 604 00:21:32,214 --> 00:21:35,095 that year leading up to my diagnosis at 605 00:21:35,095 --> 00:21:35,994 22, 606 00:21:36,535 --> 00:21:38,794 I was doing things I wasn't proud of. 607 00:21:38,855 --> 00:21:39,515 I was 608 00:21:40,130 --> 00:21:41,029 spending time 609 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:42,309 with people 610 00:21:43,569 --> 00:21:44,789 who emboldened 611 00:21:46,289 --> 00:21:47,429 parts of myself 612 00:21:48,210 --> 00:21:48,950 that weren't 613 00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:50,950 the most 614 00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:51,750 elevated 615 00:21:52,369 --> 00:21:53,990 aspects of who I knew 616 00:21:54,595 --> 00:21:56,515 I could be. And so when I got 617 00:21:56,515 --> 00:21:57,654 sick at 22, 618 00:21:58,434 --> 00:21:59,654 to my great surprise, 619 00:22:01,235 --> 00:22:02,995 and I have to kind of laugh now, 620 00:22:02,995 --> 00:22:03,975 you know, the people 621 00:22:04,355 --> 00:22:04,855 that 622 00:22:05,555 --> 00:22:06,055 I 623 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:08,690 was going to keg parties with or doing 624 00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:11,409 lines with were not the people sitting by 625 00:22:11,409 --> 00:22:13,169 my bedside as my hair fell out in 626 00:22:13,169 --> 00:22:13,669 clumps. 627 00:22:14,049 --> 00:22:15,429 And I felt really 628 00:22:15,809 --> 00:22:17,990 hurt and angry and betrayed 629 00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:19,109 by that, 630 00:22:19,424 --> 00:22:21,105 Even though I look back now and think 631 00:22:21,105 --> 00:22:21,765 to myself, 632 00:22:22,305 --> 00:22:23,125 those relationships 633 00:22:23,505 --> 00:22:25,845 never had the depth to sustain 634 00:22:26,465 --> 00:22:28,005 much of anything, let alone 635 00:22:28,465 --> 00:22:29,684 something as devastating 636 00:22:30,545 --> 00:22:31,845 as the illness 637 00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:33,730 that I was confronted with. 638 00:22:34,429 --> 00:22:37,250 And once I got over that and started 639 00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:38,289 to 640 00:22:39,069 --> 00:22:41,710 bring the lens back onto myself, and and 641 00:22:41,710 --> 00:22:42,769 to think about 642 00:22:43,069 --> 00:22:45,409 the kind of friendships I had cultivated, 643 00:22:46,045 --> 00:22:48,765 and the depth of community I wanted to 644 00:22:48,765 --> 00:22:49,265 cultivate, 645 00:22:49,644 --> 00:22:52,525 and to focus on the people who had 646 00:22:52,525 --> 00:22:53,345 shown up, 647 00:22:53,644 --> 00:22:54,144 often 648 00:22:54,525 --> 00:22:55,744 completely unexpectedly. 649 00:22:56,605 --> 00:22:58,704 Friends from childhood, old classmates, 650 00:22:59,630 --> 00:23:01,809 fellow patients in the cancer unit. 651 00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:05,170 I began to make a study 652 00:23:05,630 --> 00:23:07,009 out of community 653 00:23:07,630 --> 00:23:08,130 and 654 00:23:09,070 --> 00:23:09,570 to 655 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:10,610 believe 656 00:23:11,309 --> 00:23:11,809 that 657 00:23:12,615 --> 00:23:13,275 it is 658 00:23:14,295 --> 00:23:14,795 essential 659 00:23:15,815 --> 00:23:16,315 to 660 00:23:17,174 --> 00:23:17,994 our well-being. 661 00:23:18,535 --> 00:23:21,115 The depth and strength of our relationships 662 00:23:21,974 --> 00:23:22,474 correlates 663 00:23:22,775 --> 00:23:23,275 directly 664 00:23:24,055 --> 00:23:24,555 to 665 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:26,779 the depth and 666 00:23:27,159 --> 00:23:29,179 strength of our quality of life. 667 00:23:29,639 --> 00:23:30,460 And so 668 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:32,059 I really 669 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:33,419 made a conscious 670 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:35,579 shift in 671 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,839 wanting not just to have better friends, but 672 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:40,440 to figure out how to be a better 673 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,394 friend. Because as much of a cliche as 674 00:23:43,394 --> 00:23:45,555 it might be to say that something like 675 00:23:45,555 --> 00:23:48,914 cancer takes a village, it really does. And 676 00:23:48,914 --> 00:23:50,755 I think, you know, there are so many 677 00:23:50,755 --> 00:23:52,694 things in our life that require 678 00:23:53,089 --> 00:23:55,410 a village, but you have to build the 679 00:23:55,410 --> 00:23:57,890 village long before you need it. You have 680 00:23:57,890 --> 00:23:59,430 to invest in that 681 00:24:00,049 --> 00:24:00,549 village 682 00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:01,750 with generosity 683 00:24:02,369 --> 00:24:02,869 and 684 00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:03,910 kindness 685 00:24:04,289 --> 00:24:05,269 and consistency 686 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:06,869 without expectation 687 00:24:07,410 --> 00:24:08,789 of anything in return. 688 00:24:09,545 --> 00:24:10,444 Your animals 689 00:24:10,825 --> 00:24:13,464 are important to you. I you had a 690 00:24:13,464 --> 00:24:15,464 great post with one of your dogs just 691 00:24:15,464 --> 00:24:18,045 sort of wanting to connect with your face. 692 00:24:18,265 --> 00:24:19,964 It's such a cute video. 693 00:24:20,265 --> 00:24:23,009 And you've just written about the dogs you've 694 00:24:23,009 --> 00:24:24,230 had over the years 695 00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:26,450 on We Can Do Hard Things. You've talked 696 00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:29,250 about your capacity to be a dog broker, 697 00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:32,450 helping people get their own dogs. And I'm 698 00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:36,230 thinking about Richard Rohr's work around soul 699 00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:37,350 and how 700 00:24:37,894 --> 00:24:39,914 dogs have a soul. And 701 00:24:40,294 --> 00:24:42,394 there's nothing like the affirmative, 702 00:24:42,934 --> 00:24:43,434 unconditional 703 00:24:43,734 --> 00:24:44,234 love 704 00:24:44,615 --> 00:24:47,194 that a pet, a dog can provide. 705 00:24:47,894 --> 00:24:49,994 Can you share a little bit about these 706 00:24:50,134 --> 00:24:53,659 small creatures that inhabit your life that are 707 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,900 so so wonderful? 708 00:24:56,679 --> 00:24:59,000 I think I'm drawn to animals for exactly 709 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,679 the reason you just said. It's such an 710 00:25:00,679 --> 00:25:03,019 astute observation, and I really believe 711 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:05,419 animals and and dogs in particular 712 00:25:06,464 --> 00:25:09,605 are amongst some of our, our greatest living 713 00:25:09,664 --> 00:25:10,164 teachers, 714 00:25:10,944 --> 00:25:14,464 not just in a kind of purity of 715 00:25:14,464 --> 00:25:14,964 love 716 00:25:15,265 --> 00:25:16,085 that as 717 00:25:16,785 --> 00:25:18,325 humans, we so often 718 00:25:18,704 --> 00:25:19,204 complicate, 719 00:25:20,190 --> 00:25:20,849 but also 720 00:25:21,309 --> 00:25:22,529 about our finitude. 721 00:25:23,549 --> 00:25:24,450 Most of us 722 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:27,329 outlive our dogs. We have longer lifespans 723 00:25:27,710 --> 00:25:29,869 than our dogs, and that can feel like 724 00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:32,049 reason enough to never have a dog. 725 00:25:32,394 --> 00:25:34,795 My husband, John, said when he was six 726 00:25:34,795 --> 00:25:37,194 years old, they had a family German Shepherd, 727 00:25:37,194 --> 00:25:40,154 and he noted to himself that he was 728 00:25:40,154 --> 00:25:42,315 going to outlive the dog and decided not 729 00:25:42,315 --> 00:25:43,434 to get too close to it because it 730 00:25:43,434 --> 00:25:44,954 was gonna be too painful, which is such 731 00:25:44,954 --> 00:25:46,335 a profound observation 732 00:25:47,109 --> 00:25:48,329 for a six year old. 733 00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:50,809 Three years ago, when I relapsed 734 00:25:51,349 --> 00:25:53,509 and I was going through a second bone 735 00:25:53,509 --> 00:25:55,609 marrow transplant while I was in the hospital, 736 00:25:55,829 --> 00:25:56,329 my 737 00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:59,029 beloved dog, who I'd had from the time 738 00:25:59,029 --> 00:26:00,869 I was 22 years old, who I'd grown 739 00:26:00,869 --> 00:26:02,755 up with, who was in the care of 740 00:26:02,755 --> 00:26:05,474 our dear friend Elizabeth Gilbert. And she called 741 00:26:05,474 --> 00:26:07,154 me one day while I was in the 742 00:26:07,154 --> 00:26:09,815 hospital. I was at my very sickest. 743 00:26:10,195 --> 00:26:11,174 I had 744 00:26:11,714 --> 00:26:12,695 two blood infections 745 00:26:13,315 --> 00:26:13,974 and was 746 00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:15,210 in sepsis, 747 00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:18,470 and I had zero white blood cells because 748 00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:19,529 I just had this 749 00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:22,149 bone marrow transplant, and it was not in 750 00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:24,230 grafting. So I was as close to death 751 00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:25,450 as I've ever been. 752 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:27,535 And she called me, and I did not 753 00:26:27,535 --> 00:26:29,214 pick up the phone because I was as 754 00:26:29,214 --> 00:26:31,134 close to death as I've ever been. And 755 00:26:31,134 --> 00:26:33,295 she texted me a few minutes later and 756 00:26:33,295 --> 00:26:35,315 said, I really need you to call me. 757 00:26:35,775 --> 00:26:37,934 And what she had to tell me was 758 00:26:37,934 --> 00:26:39,474 that my dog Oscar 759 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,220 was dying, that he had cancer 760 00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:44,679 and that he needed to be put down 761 00:26:44,679 --> 00:26:46,059 in the next hour, 762 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,819 which, you know, 763 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,659 I think the only thing 764 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:50,539 worse 765 00:26:50,919 --> 00:26:52,779 than someone else's dog dying 766 00:26:53,505 --> 00:26:57,184 on your watch as someone else's dog dying 767 00:26:57,184 --> 00:26:58,484 while they're in the hospital, 768 00:26:58,865 --> 00:26:59,924 possibly dying. 769 00:27:00,945 --> 00:27:02,085 And it was 770 00:27:02,865 --> 00:27:03,365 devastating. 771 00:27:04,305 --> 00:27:05,445 Liz was devastated. 772 00:27:06,945 --> 00:27:08,325 We had a sort of 773 00:27:08,849 --> 00:27:09,349 virtual 774 00:27:10,609 --> 00:27:11,109 vigil 775 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:12,230 over Zoom. 776 00:27:12,609 --> 00:27:14,390 Everybody was weeping. 777 00:27:14,769 --> 00:27:15,269 And 778 00:27:16,690 --> 00:27:17,190 Oscar, 779 00:27:17,569 --> 00:27:18,549 who had been 780 00:27:19,410 --> 00:27:20,710 a fellow Hellraiser 781 00:27:21,125 --> 00:27:22,965 his entire life. He never met a person 782 00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:24,965 he didn't bite. He was like this tiny 783 00:27:24,965 --> 00:27:25,865 little rapscallion 784 00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:29,705 terrier, and those last moments of his life 785 00:27:30,484 --> 00:27:30,984 surrendered. 786 00:27:31,684 --> 00:27:32,505 He was 787 00:27:32,965 --> 00:27:35,669 like a puppy again. He was tender. He 788 00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:36,490 was sweet. 789 00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:39,829 He allowed himself to be held and cuddled 790 00:27:39,829 --> 00:27:41,609 in ways he never would have. 791 00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:44,250 After that happened, 792 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:45,609 I was so 793 00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:47,049 inconsolable 794 00:27:48,654 --> 00:27:50,275 that I felt as, 795 00:27:50,815 --> 00:27:52,974 you know, near to a breaking point as 796 00:27:52,974 --> 00:27:54,994 I've ever been. And I had this sudden 797 00:27:55,535 --> 00:27:56,035 vision 798 00:27:57,134 --> 00:27:57,634 of 799 00:27:58,174 --> 00:27:59,154 these four 800 00:27:59,695 --> 00:28:00,914 birds lifting 801 00:28:01,375 --> 00:28:02,515 a wooden marionette. 802 00:28:02,974 --> 00:28:05,349 And I got out my watercolor, and I 803 00:28:05,349 --> 00:28:07,849 started to paint. And as I painted, 804 00:28:09,509 --> 00:28:12,150 almost like a, a chant in my head, 805 00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:13,369 were the words, 806 00:28:14,309 --> 00:28:15,450 I surrender 807 00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:17,105 to the flow. 808 00:28:17,644 --> 00:28:19,984 And I rendered this painting 809 00:28:20,605 --> 00:28:23,484 in like one fast furious breath. And as 810 00:28:23,484 --> 00:28:24,144 I painted 811 00:28:24,765 --> 00:28:26,065 the strings connected 812 00:28:26,525 --> 00:28:28,684 the wooden marionette to the birds, I felt 813 00:28:28,684 --> 00:28:29,184 my 814 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:31,589 spine begin to lift. 815 00:28:32,289 --> 00:28:34,789 I felt that sense of surrender. 816 00:28:35,809 --> 00:28:37,670 And the next morning I woke up 817 00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:39,670 and the infections 818 00:28:40,289 --> 00:28:41,190 began clearing, 819 00:28:42,049 --> 00:28:42,549 and 820 00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:43,990 my bone marrow 821 00:28:44,664 --> 00:28:45,964 began engrafting. 822 00:28:46,664 --> 00:28:48,204 And in my sort 823 00:28:48,585 --> 00:28:49,244 of magical 824 00:28:49,545 --> 00:28:51,644 thinking about this whole episode, 825 00:28:52,424 --> 00:28:53,724 I felt like 826 00:28:54,105 --> 00:28:54,605 perhaps 827 00:28:54,904 --> 00:28:56,845 Oscar, my beloved little terrier, 828 00:28:57,549 --> 00:28:59,250 had died as a kind of sacrifice 829 00:28:59,950 --> 00:29:02,130 so that I wouldn't have to. 830 00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:04,049 But more than that, 831 00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:06,210 what he taught me 832 00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:07,490 was 833 00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:09,490 about, 834 00:29:10,035 --> 00:29:10,934 sure, our, 835 00:29:11,394 --> 00:29:12,295 our finitude, 836 00:29:12,595 --> 00:29:13,335 the fact 837 00:29:14,355 --> 00:29:16,355 that the only certainties in our life is 838 00:29:16,355 --> 00:29:18,535 that we are born and we will die. 839 00:29:18,835 --> 00:29:21,015 But more than that, our capacity 840 00:29:21,795 --> 00:29:24,950 for ever expanding love. Because after all that, 841 00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:26,630 I was like, I'm never gonna get a 842 00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:27,450 dog again. 843 00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:30,230 That was so painful. I never wanna go 844 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:31,690 through something like that again. 845 00:29:32,309 --> 00:29:33,830 And I sat with that for a while 846 00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:36,650 and and remembered Oscar in in those final 847 00:29:37,184 --> 00:29:40,005 moments of surrender and total trust and love. 848 00:29:40,704 --> 00:29:41,204 And 849 00:29:41,904 --> 00:29:42,404 decided 850 00:29:44,384 --> 00:29:46,085 to try to embody 851 00:29:46,944 --> 00:29:47,764 those qualities 852 00:29:48,224 --> 00:29:50,809 in my own way. And now I have 853 00:29:50,809 --> 00:29:53,150 three dogs in the span of three years. 854 00:29:53,609 --> 00:29:56,730 I just turned 37, and afterwards, my husband 855 00:29:56,730 --> 00:29:58,009 and my friend said, what did you wish 856 00:29:58,009 --> 00:29:59,150 for? And I said, 857 00:29:59,690 --> 00:30:01,769 a fourth dog. And they were like, no. 858 00:30:01,769 --> 00:30:04,384 That's too many dogs. But here I am, 859 00:30:04,384 --> 00:30:04,884 essentially 860 00:30:05,345 --> 00:30:05,845 running 861 00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:07,045 an unofficial 862 00:30:07,505 --> 00:30:09,444 animal sanctuary out of my home. 863 00:30:11,105 --> 00:30:14,144 And that animal broke her to other people 864 00:30:14,144 --> 00:30:16,565 having this beautiful connection to these dogs. 865 00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:19,309 I promised Liz after this whole 866 00:30:19,849 --> 00:30:20,349 experience 867 00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:22,490 that I was gonna find her a dog. 868 00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:23,930 And she said, I want it to look 869 00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:25,150 exactly like Oscar, 870 00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:27,529 but without the biting. And so it took 871 00:30:27,529 --> 00:30:29,450 me a year, but I found her that 872 00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:31,470 perfect dog and she was my first. 873 00:30:31,769 --> 00:30:32,589 And my 874 00:30:32,944 --> 00:30:34,805 side hustle is canine matchmaker. 875 00:30:36,785 --> 00:30:38,785 So in The Book of Alchemy, you talk 876 00:30:38,785 --> 00:30:40,085 about your writing 877 00:30:40,384 --> 00:30:40,884 space 878 00:30:41,265 --> 00:30:43,984 or maybe it was in your isolation journal, 879 00:30:43,984 --> 00:30:46,630 something you posted. But are you there now? 880 00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:48,809 Is that where you are up in your 881 00:30:49,109 --> 00:30:50,570 your valley upstate 882 00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:51,529 somewhere? 883 00:30:51,910 --> 00:30:54,789 I'm in the Delaware River Valley. We just 884 00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:55,289 moved 885 00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:58,410 nearby to a farm, but it's a similar 886 00:30:58,924 --> 00:31:01,404 setup. It's slightly nicer than my last setup, 887 00:31:01,404 --> 00:31:03,345 which was a literal potting shed 888 00:31:03,724 --> 00:31:04,785 that had been converted 889 00:31:05,244 --> 00:31:08,125 into a kind of writing shed that had 890 00:31:08,125 --> 00:31:10,605 no heat other than a wood stove, which 891 00:31:10,605 --> 00:31:13,059 sounds far more romantic than it is, I 892 00:31:13,059 --> 00:31:14,039 can assure you, 893 00:31:14,339 --> 00:31:16,980 when you're freezing your ass off on a 894 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:17,480 January 895 00:31:17,779 --> 00:31:19,940 day and and waiting for the the wood 896 00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:21,159 stove to heat up. 897 00:31:21,619 --> 00:31:23,460 But, yeah, I have a little I'm in 898 00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:25,305 it right now as I'm talking to you. 899 00:31:25,545 --> 00:31:26,285 It's a tiny 900 00:31:26,664 --> 00:31:27,485 one room 901 00:31:27,865 --> 00:31:28,365 cottage 902 00:31:28,744 --> 00:31:30,285 on our farm, and 903 00:31:31,144 --> 00:31:33,485 it's such a privilege. I never had 904 00:31:33,865 --> 00:31:36,265 a room of my own to work in 905 00:31:36,265 --> 00:31:38,045 for most of my 20s 906 00:31:38,345 --> 00:31:40,924 and early 30s, and I was always offering 907 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:43,190 to pet sit or house sit so that 908 00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:43,849 I could 909 00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:46,730 go away and be away with my thoughts. 910 00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:49,829 And so I'm I feel really lucky and 911 00:31:49,829 --> 00:31:50,649 and grateful 912 00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:54,329 to have this little room filled with books 913 00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:57,275 and the things that inspire me. So like, 914 00:31:57,654 --> 00:31:59,835 how how's your health? How are you feeling? 915 00:32:00,455 --> 00:32:03,914 So I learned almost exactly a year ago 916 00:32:04,535 --> 00:32:06,875 that the leukemia was back a third time. 917 00:32:07,654 --> 00:32:08,154 I 918 00:32:09,095 --> 00:32:09,595 was 919 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:10,910 obviously 920 00:32:11,529 --> 00:32:13,710 devastated by this news. I had 921 00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:17,869 known it was a likelihood, but had hoped 922 00:32:18,410 --> 00:32:19,950 for longer and, 923 00:32:21,450 --> 00:32:24,350 you know, my prognosis is not good. 924 00:32:25,015 --> 00:32:26,634 When I first got this news, 925 00:32:27,174 --> 00:32:28,855 I just couldn't get out of bed for 926 00:32:28,855 --> 00:32:31,095 a month. I just felt like I don't 927 00:32:31,095 --> 00:32:32,234 have it in me 928 00:32:32,934 --> 00:32:35,015 to do what I've always done and to 929 00:32:35,015 --> 00:32:36,554 pull myself together and 930 00:32:37,109 --> 00:32:40,549 try to embrace the uncertainty and, and figure 931 00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:41,049 out 932 00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:44,549 how to keep making plans and to keep 933 00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:46,789 moving forward. I'm tired. I don't want to 934 00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:48,150 do this. I don't want to go to 935 00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:49,690 chemo anymore. I don't 936 00:32:50,174 --> 00:32:52,335 want to do the bone marrow biopsies. I 937 00:32:52,335 --> 00:32:53,394 don't wanna answer 938 00:32:53,774 --> 00:32:56,575 the concerned texts and phone calls from well 939 00:32:56,575 --> 00:32:58,835 meaning friends. I'm just over it. 940 00:32:59,694 --> 00:33:01,875 And I spent about a month like that. 941 00:33:02,289 --> 00:33:03,809 And it have it in me to write 942 00:33:03,809 --> 00:33:06,529 my weekly newsletter. I just went totally dark, 943 00:33:06,529 --> 00:33:09,250 no explanation. I just stopped participating, and I 944 00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:10,069 needed that. 945 00:33:10,369 --> 00:33:11,269 And I'm grateful 946 00:33:11,890 --> 00:33:12,950 I allowed myself 947 00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:13,990 that. 948 00:33:15,569 --> 00:33:17,190 And I think, you know, 949 00:33:18,134 --> 00:33:19,115 there's so much 950 00:33:19,494 --> 00:33:22,555 self imposed pressure, but also cultural pressure. 951 00:33:23,174 --> 00:33:24,234 We put ourselves 952 00:33:24,934 --> 00:33:27,035 to be someone who suffers well. 953 00:33:27,734 --> 00:33:30,055 And I think it's especially true for whatever 954 00:33:30,055 --> 00:33:32,634 reason with cancer. You know, there's this pressure 955 00:33:34,660 --> 00:33:37,539 to find the silver lining, or to, you 956 00:33:37,539 --> 00:33:39,940 know, people say things like God doesn't give 957 00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:42,360 you more than you can handle, which always 958 00:33:42,580 --> 00:33:43,080 particularly 959 00:33:43,460 --> 00:33:46,100 enraged me, because sometimes it sure feels like 960 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:47,960 you've been given more than you can handle. 961 00:33:49,184 --> 00:33:49,845 And then 962 00:33:50,224 --> 00:33:52,784 this notion of of living every day as 963 00:33:52,784 --> 00:33:54,565 if it's your last, and 964 00:33:55,184 --> 00:33:56,644 something that my oncologist 965 00:33:57,345 --> 00:33:58,944 said to me over and over again, because 966 00:33:58,944 --> 00:34:00,704 I kept telling him, I don't know how 967 00:34:00,704 --> 00:34:02,484 to do this. I don't know 968 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:06,559 how to make plans for three months from 969 00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:08,960 now or let alone three years from now 970 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,559 when I don't know that I'm going to 971 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:11,860 exist in the future. 972 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,719 And wouldn't it be easier to just stay 973 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,460 in bed 974 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:16,820 and not have 975 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:18,340 my heart broken 976 00:34:18,984 --> 00:34:19,964 when those plans 977 00:34:20,264 --> 00:34:22,844 or commitments can't come to pass, then 978 00:34:23,385 --> 00:34:23,885 then 979 00:34:24,505 --> 00:34:25,005 to 980 00:34:25,704 --> 00:34:26,204 dream 981 00:34:26,505 --> 00:34:27,005 and 982 00:34:27,864 --> 00:34:28,364 to 983 00:34:29,945 --> 00:34:31,085 open my heart 984 00:34:31,569 --> 00:34:34,289 to new experiences and a new love, which 985 00:34:34,289 --> 00:34:35,109 is to say 986 00:34:35,409 --> 00:34:36,230 new loss. 987 00:34:37,409 --> 00:34:38,690 And he said, you have to live every 988 00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:40,449 day as if it's your last. And every 989 00:34:40,449 --> 00:34:41,889 time he said it, like, I, I knew 990 00:34:41,889 --> 00:34:43,969 what he meant, and I was just filled 991 00:34:43,969 --> 00:34:44,710 with anxiety. 992 00:34:45,644 --> 00:34:47,965 And this, again, this sense of pressure to 993 00:34:47,965 --> 00:34:51,184 make every family dinner as meaningful as possible, 994 00:34:51,244 --> 00:34:51,905 and then 995 00:34:52,284 --> 00:34:53,425 to be deeply 996 00:34:53,724 --> 00:34:55,965 disappointed in myself when I picked a stupid 997 00:34:55,965 --> 00:34:57,644 fight with my mom or whatever. Because it 998 00:34:57,644 --> 00:34:59,485 wasn't just a stupid fight with my mom. 999 00:34:59,485 --> 00:35:00,179 It was a 1000 00:35:00,819 --> 00:35:03,539 important dinner that was ruined by that stupid 1001 00:35:03,539 --> 00:35:05,940 fight, and it was just not working for 1002 00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:07,319 me. And so 1003 00:35:08,019 --> 00:35:09,000 at some point, 1004 00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:11,719 I shifted to a different mindset 1005 00:35:12,824 --> 00:35:15,164 that felt gentler to me and, 1006 00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:17,864 and, and more doable, which was this idea 1007 00:35:17,864 --> 00:35:18,605 of living 1008 00:35:19,224 --> 00:35:22,045 every day as if it were my first. 1009 00:35:22,505 --> 00:35:23,005 And 1010 00:35:23,545 --> 00:35:26,264 that really clicked for me. It's really worked 1011 00:35:26,264 --> 00:35:26,940 for me. 1012 00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:28,079 This notion 1013 00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:29,519 of waking up 1014 00:35:30,139 --> 00:35:32,239 with a sense of curiosity 1015 00:35:32,859 --> 00:35:34,800 and wonder and play 1016 00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,059 that a little kid might. And when I 1017 00:35:38,059 --> 00:35:39,679 do that, I'm not scrambling 1018 00:35:40,539 --> 00:35:44,275 to cross off big bucket list items. I'm 1019 00:35:45,375 --> 00:35:45,875 admiring 1020 00:35:46,974 --> 00:35:49,855 a flower blooming in my garden. I'm watching 1021 00:35:49,855 --> 00:35:50,514 a caterpillar 1022 00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:53,474 scuttling across a rock. I'm allowing myself 1023 00:35:54,389 --> 00:35:55,530 to slow down 1024 00:35:55,989 --> 00:35:57,369 and to be present 1025 00:35:57,750 --> 00:36:00,089 with whatever it is that's happening. 1026 00:36:00,710 --> 00:36:02,170 And since doing that, 1027 00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:04,650 it's shifted me 1028 00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:06,489 out of 1029 00:36:07,445 --> 00:36:08,505 an all consuming 1030 00:36:09,125 --> 00:36:10,344 fear of the uncertainty 1031 00:36:10,885 --> 00:36:11,385 ahead 1032 00:36:11,844 --> 00:36:12,824 into a place 1033 00:36:13,605 --> 00:36:14,105 where 1034 00:36:14,804 --> 00:36:15,625 I'm able 1035 00:36:16,805 --> 00:36:17,305 to 1036 00:36:18,485 --> 00:36:21,465 make room for and, and marvel at 1037 00:36:22,019 --> 00:36:22,760 the mystery 1038 00:36:23,619 --> 00:36:24,440 of the unknown. 1039 00:36:25,380 --> 00:36:26,599 When I'm doing that, 1040 00:36:27,460 --> 00:36:28,760 I feel alive. 1041 00:36:29,860 --> 00:36:31,159 When I'm doing that, 1042 00:36:31,699 --> 00:36:32,440 I'm making 1043 00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:33,800 decisions 1044 00:36:34,820 --> 00:36:35,320 with 1045 00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:37,480 alive me 1046 00:36:37,835 --> 00:36:39,214 in mind and not 1047 00:36:39,514 --> 00:36:40,255 some future 1048 00:36:40,554 --> 00:36:41,934 dead version of me. 1049 00:36:42,795 --> 00:36:44,875 In the process, at the beginning of the 1050 00:36:44,875 --> 00:36:47,295 week in particular, it's a deep meditation 1051 00:36:47,674 --> 00:36:48,494 on death, 1052 00:36:49,034 --> 00:36:52,315 death from a couple different ways of looking 1053 00:36:52,315 --> 00:36:53,375 at it. And 1054 00:36:53,710 --> 00:36:56,269 some students are a little bewildered, like, why 1055 00:36:56,269 --> 00:36:56,769 this? 1056 00:36:57,150 --> 00:36:58,849 And then through the experiences 1057 00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:02,690 of it, the different experiences associated with looking 1058 00:37:02,829 --> 00:37:04,849 directly at death, directly 1059 00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:05,890 at death, 1060 00:37:06,454 --> 00:37:07,594 they intuitively, 1061 00:37:08,054 --> 00:37:10,695 cellularly get it that it has nothing to 1062 00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:12,855 do with death and everything to do with 1063 00:37:12,855 --> 00:37:13,755 being alive. 1064 00:37:15,974 --> 00:37:17,355 That's so powerful. 1065 00:37:18,449 --> 00:37:20,130 You know, when I said you live a 1066 00:37:20,130 --> 00:37:23,329 life that is what the process is all 1067 00:37:23,329 --> 00:37:25,190 about, this is part of what 1068 00:37:25,489 --> 00:37:27,190 I'm talking about, your capacity, 1069 00:37:27,809 --> 00:37:28,869 your honesty. 1070 00:37:29,809 --> 00:37:30,789 You're honest, 1071 00:37:31,905 --> 00:37:32,405 Brutally, 1072 00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:33,364 lovingly 1073 00:37:33,664 --> 00:37:34,164 honest 1074 00:37:34,785 --> 00:37:37,664 about what's happening inside you, what's happening around 1075 00:37:37,664 --> 00:37:40,244 you, what you see in the world. 1076 00:37:41,184 --> 00:37:43,525 And, there's a courage to that 1077 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:44,639 that, 1078 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:45,780 is 1079 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:47,219 electrifying 1080 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,679 and your ability to do what you're just 1081 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:53,859 talking about now, to look at death 1082 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,420 and to know that the prognosis 1083 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,724 is not good. And the irony 1084 00:37:59,585 --> 00:38:01,744 is the prognosis is not good for all 1085 00:38:01,744 --> 00:38:02,324 of us. 1086 00:38:02,704 --> 00:38:05,204 I'm not special in my relationship to mortality. 1087 00:38:05,264 --> 00:38:07,505 I just think about it maybe more than 1088 00:38:07,505 --> 00:38:08,885 the average person does, 1089 00:38:09,184 --> 00:38:11,519 and I have to remember that too. And 1090 00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:13,519 when I remember that, it feels like a 1091 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:14,659 kind of gift 1092 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,619 to be in such close conversation 1093 00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:19,059 with my mortality. 1094 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,800 When I'm thinking about my month and what's 1095 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,019 important to me, 1096 00:38:24,444 --> 00:38:25,424 and I'm holding 1097 00:38:26,444 --> 00:38:26,944 mortality 1098 00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:28,464 and the balance, 1099 00:38:29,164 --> 00:38:30,625 all the things that might 1100 00:38:31,484 --> 00:38:32,625 consume me suddenly 1101 00:38:33,324 --> 00:38:34,704 quickly sort themselves 1102 00:38:35,164 --> 00:38:36,704 in a priority list. 1103 00:38:37,329 --> 00:38:38,710 That feels pretty clear. 1104 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:41,750 And so that's a privilege. It's a privilege, 1105 00:38:41,969 --> 00:38:42,789 in a way, 1106 00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:45,349 to not think of 1107 00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:49,030 my time or our time here as infinite, 1108 00:38:50,484 --> 00:38:52,644 to be mindful about it, about who you 1109 00:38:52,644 --> 00:38:54,324 spend it with and and what you wanna 1110 00:38:54,324 --> 00:38:55,144 do with it. 1111 00:38:56,484 --> 00:38:58,644 And I'm grateful that I don't get to 1112 00:38:58,644 --> 00:38:59,144 forget. 1113 00:39:00,324 --> 00:39:02,585 I just sent you a quote from 1114 00:39:03,279 --> 00:39:03,779 Liz 1115 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,980 about you and Between Two Kingdoms. 1116 00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:09,460 There's something about 1117 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,420 receiving, 1118 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,460 allowing, 1119 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,299 letting love in 1120 00:39:13,759 --> 00:39:14,259 that 1121 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:15,380 feels 1122 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:16,819 even more 1123 00:39:17,434 --> 00:39:19,755 challenging at times. And when I've read this 1124 00:39:19,755 --> 00:39:21,534 quote from Liz about you, 1125 00:39:22,474 --> 00:39:23,534 it's like, wow. 1126 00:39:24,155 --> 00:39:25,775 She sees you. She 1127 00:39:26,155 --> 00:39:26,974 loves you. 1128 00:39:27,835 --> 00:39:29,534 Would you be willing to read it? 1129 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,480 Oh my goodness. You're asking me to do 1130 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,800 something that makes me want to hide under 1131 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,820 a pillow fort, but I will do it. 1132 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:38,179 Okay. 1133 00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:42,559 I want to describe Souleikha Jawad with words 1134 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:43,380 like courageous, 1135 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:44,579 resilient, 1136 00:39:45,364 --> 00:39:46,744 vulnerable, and inspiring. 1137 00:39:47,844 --> 00:39:50,885 But I understand that for cancer survivors, these 1138 00:39:50,885 --> 00:39:52,905 words can feel like empty cliches. 1139 00:39:54,244 --> 00:39:56,344 The problem is, these words are true. 1140 00:39:57,045 --> 00:39:59,385 Soleika Djawad is courageous, resilient, 1141 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,339 vulnerable, and inspiring. 1142 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,599 And her memoir about her cancer journey is 1143 00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:06,619 a work of breathtaking creativity 1144 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,619 and heart stopping humanity. 1145 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,679 Jawad's story goes where you never expect it 1146 00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:13,339 to go, 1147 00:40:14,034 --> 00:40:16,355 not only into the depths of her own 1148 00:40:16,355 --> 00:40:17,815 pain and lost years, 1149 00:40:18,195 --> 00:40:20,534 but into the spirits of countless strangers, 1150 00:40:20,994 --> 00:40:23,394 sick and well, she meets along the highway 1151 00:40:23,394 --> 00:40:25,954 of her own life and illuminates with rare 1152 00:40:25,954 --> 00:40:26,454 generosity 1153 00:40:26,835 --> 00:40:27,574 and grace. 1154 00:40:28,269 --> 00:40:30,750 This is a deeply moving and passionate work 1155 00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:31,410 of art, 1156 00:40:31,869 --> 00:40:34,130 quite unlike anything I've ever read. 1157 00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:36,670 I will remember these stories for years to 1158 00:40:36,670 --> 00:40:40,190 come because Soleika Joad has imprinted them on 1159 00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:40,930 my heart. 1160 00:40:41,765 --> 00:40:44,324 What's that like to read her description of 1161 00:40:44,324 --> 00:40:44,824 you? 1162 00:40:45,125 --> 00:40:46,105 To your point, 1163 00:40:46,405 --> 00:40:47,704 when we talk about 1164 00:40:48,324 --> 00:40:50,965 gifts, I think we think about them in 1165 00:40:50,965 --> 00:40:53,045 in the context of of being the giver 1166 00:40:53,045 --> 00:40:53,864 of the gifts. 1167 00:40:54,405 --> 00:40:55,945 And what occurs to me 1168 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,199 as I read them is how hard it 1169 00:40:58,199 --> 00:40:58,699 is 1170 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,539 to accept a gift. 1171 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,119 It's a gift to be someone who can 1172 00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:07,739 accept gifts and really, yeah, receive them 1173 00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:09,099 with their full 1174 00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:11,260 breadth of, of intention. 1175 00:41:11,994 --> 00:41:12,974 And so as uncomfortable 1176 00:41:13,434 --> 00:41:14,574 as that made me, 1177 00:41:15,275 --> 00:41:17,295 I did feel her love and 1178 00:41:18,074 --> 00:41:19,775 it made me feel loved. And 1179 00:41:20,954 --> 00:41:22,714 I think had I not read them aloud, 1180 00:41:22,714 --> 00:41:24,175 I would have quickly 1181 00:41:24,789 --> 00:41:27,269 read those words with one eye closed, you 1182 00:41:27,269 --> 00:41:28,969 know, out of the corner of my eye, 1183 00:41:29,429 --> 00:41:30,170 and not 1184 00:41:30,869 --> 00:41:32,969 receive them in in the way that she 1185 00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:35,190 wrote them and and would have wanted me 1186 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:36,170 to receive them. 1187 00:41:36,789 --> 00:41:37,289 Yeah. 1188 00:41:37,994 --> 00:41:40,074 The receiving of the gift is the gift 1189 00:41:40,074 --> 00:41:41,694 back to the giver, 1190 00:41:42,234 --> 00:41:44,234 and so receiving them as she would have 1191 00:41:44,234 --> 00:41:46,335 wanted you to receive them. I love that. 1192 00:41:47,355 --> 00:41:49,514 What's the rest of the day that we 1193 00:41:49,514 --> 00:41:51,135 have in store for you? 1194 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,000 Oh, I have a great week in store 1195 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:55,739 for myself. 1196 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,820 I was supposed to be 1197 00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:58,940 traveling 1198 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,880 on vacation, and I decided not to do 1199 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,980 that and to stay home with my dogs. 1200 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:06,300 And instead, I've put 1201 00:42:07,055 --> 00:42:09,474 long blocks on my calendar all day 1202 00:42:09,855 --> 00:42:10,755 where it says 1203 00:42:11,454 --> 00:42:11,954 SJ 1204 00:42:12,414 --> 00:42:13,394 and meetings, 1205 00:42:14,335 --> 00:42:15,875 but they're fictitious meetings. 1206 00:42:16,414 --> 00:42:17,715 They don't really exist. 1207 00:42:18,575 --> 00:42:20,195 They're meetings with myself, 1208 00:42:20,829 --> 00:42:21,329 and 1209 00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:24,909 I am starting to dream about my next 1210 00:42:24,909 --> 00:42:25,409 book. 1211 00:42:26,269 --> 00:42:28,609 And I have no expectation 1212 00:42:28,989 --> 00:42:30,829 for what will happen in these quid and 1213 00:42:30,829 --> 00:42:33,150 quid meetings. They may just be me lying 1214 00:42:33,150 --> 00:42:34,530 on the couch with my dogs, 1215 00:42:35,005 --> 00:42:37,244 reading my favorite books and and doodling and 1216 00:42:37,244 --> 00:42:39,005 in a notebook. It doesn't matter. But I'm 1217 00:42:39,005 --> 00:42:39,505 trying 1218 00:42:40,284 --> 00:42:42,465 to schedule on schedule time 1219 00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:43,664 for 1220 00:42:44,605 --> 00:42:47,085 new things to emerge. And so I'm very 1221 00:42:47,085 --> 00:42:48,465 excited for this week. 1222 00:42:48,989 --> 00:42:51,250 The beauty of embracing the unknown, 1223 00:42:52,590 --> 00:42:55,230 so much of your gift is saying yes 1224 00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:56,130 to the unknown 1225 00:42:56,829 --> 00:42:58,289 even though it's unknown. 1226 00:42:58,670 --> 00:43:01,389 And I guess actively trying to cultivate it, 1227 00:43:01,389 --> 00:43:02,769 to make space for it. 1228 00:43:03,174 --> 00:43:05,255 And there's, I guess, a kind of irony 1229 00:43:05,255 --> 00:43:07,994 to scheduling unscheduled time, that sometimes 1230 00:43:08,375 --> 00:43:09,674 that's what you gotta do. 1231 00:43:10,214 --> 00:43:13,275 Yeah. There's something about your capacity to 1232 00:43:13,654 --> 00:43:15,355 schedule, unscheduled time, 1233 00:43:15,734 --> 00:43:18,234 embrace death in service of life, 1234 00:43:19,070 --> 00:43:21,869 step away from binary. But, you know, the 1235 00:43:21,869 --> 00:43:22,369 familiar 1236 00:43:23,469 --> 00:43:26,690 binary world that we so wanna lean on 1237 00:43:27,309 --> 00:43:29,969 is a fallacy. It doesn't exist. We've gotta 1238 00:43:30,429 --> 00:43:32,929 lean into the liminal space 1239 00:43:33,655 --> 00:43:36,535 of the unknown, the emergence of what we 1240 00:43:36,535 --> 00:43:37,914 do not yet know. 1241 00:43:38,535 --> 00:43:40,695 I think that's the work to hold the 1242 00:43:40,695 --> 00:43:41,195 paradoxes, 1243 00:43:42,215 --> 00:43:42,954 to hold 1244 00:43:43,655 --> 00:43:44,394 the brutal 1245 00:43:44,695 --> 00:43:46,315 realities of life and 1246 00:43:47,579 --> 00:43:48,320 the beautiful 1247 00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:49,280 ones 1248 00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:51,440 and and the same 1249 00:43:52,059 --> 00:43:52,960 open palm. 1250 00:43:53,660 --> 00:43:56,780 Suleikha, thank you for this time. I'm I'm 1251 00:43:56,780 --> 00:43:59,500 so grateful that our grads get a chance 1252 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:00,000 to 1253 00:44:00,945 --> 00:44:01,925 hear you and 1254 00:44:02,305 --> 00:44:03,525 connect with you. And 1255 00:44:03,905 --> 00:44:06,065 we'll put so much of what we talked 1256 00:44:06,065 --> 00:44:07,925 about in our show notes so that 1257 00:44:08,385 --> 00:44:11,125 even some of the artwork and the isolation 1258 00:44:11,344 --> 00:44:14,565 journals and and the books and maybe some 1259 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,539 doggy photos as well too on the page. 1260 00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:18,579 Please. 1261 00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:21,920 Thank you so much, Drew. What a joy 1262 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,099 and, and thank you to everyone who's listening. 1263 00:44:32,105 --> 00:44:34,184 Thank you for listening to our podcast. My 1264 00:44:34,184 --> 00:44:36,505 name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and 1265 00:44:36,505 --> 00:44:38,684 president of Hoffman Institute Foundation. 1266 00:44:39,144 --> 00:44:40,445 And I'm Razi Ingrassi, 1267 00:44:41,065 --> 00:44:44,119 Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute 1268 00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:44,619 Foundation. 1269 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,200 Our mission is to provide people greater access 1270 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,519 to the wisdom and power of love. In 1271 00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:51,019 themselves, 1272 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,099 in each other and in the world. 1273 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,099 To find out more, please go to hanppaninstitute.org.