1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,279 And now, the Street Photography Magazine podcast with 2 00:00:05,279 --> 00:00:06,899 your host, Bob Patterson. 3 00:00:10,785 --> 00:00:12,564 Hey, guys. Welcome back. 4 00:00:13,184 --> 00:00:13,684 It's 5 00:00:14,064 --> 00:00:16,384 Bob Patterson at Street Photography Magazine. I'm the 6 00:00:16,384 --> 00:00:16,884 publisher, 7 00:00:17,984 --> 00:00:18,484 and 8 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,379 our guest today is an upcoming 9 00:00:22,839 --> 00:00:23,820 featured photographer 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,379 in, the magazine. 11 00:00:27,114 --> 00:00:29,375 He's already published one article with us, 12 00:00:30,074 --> 00:00:31,054 and he's, 13 00:00:31,835 --> 00:00:33,375 got another one in the works 14 00:00:34,210 --> 00:00:36,310 that we'll publish after his feature. 15 00:00:37,649 --> 00:00:40,770 And his name is, JM Simpson or John 16 00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:41,270 Simpson. 17 00:00:42,195 --> 00:00:44,994 John has he's an interesting guy, and and 18 00:00:44,994 --> 00:00:46,914 I think you're gonna understand that as we 19 00:00:46,914 --> 00:00:48,994 get into it. He's he's a retired history 20 00:00:48,994 --> 00:00:49,494 professor, 21 00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:54,070 also a former military, and he is he 22 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:55,929 was a embedded photographer 23 00:00:57,325 --> 00:00:59,424 in Iraq and Afghanistan multiple 24 00:01:00,284 --> 00:01:00,784 times, 25 00:01:02,125 --> 00:01:04,064 during the hot wars over there. 26 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:05,859 And I hope I hope that was the 27 00:01:05,859 --> 00:01:07,000 right term. You know? 28 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:08,599 But, anyway, 29 00:01:09,939 --> 00:01:11,560 and he's doing some really 30 00:01:12,415 --> 00:01:14,495 deep and interesting work among the homeless in 31 00:01:14,495 --> 00:01:17,055 his area of Olympia, Washington. We're gonna talk 32 00:01:17,055 --> 00:01:19,534 about all those things. So, John, welcome. Thanks 33 00:01:19,534 --> 00:01:20,754 for being with us today. 34 00:01:21,170 --> 00:01:23,030 Well, thank you very much for the invitation, 35 00:01:23,090 --> 00:01:25,010 Bob. It is a pleasure to be here 36 00:01:25,010 --> 00:01:25,990 and to meet you. 37 00:01:27,250 --> 00:01:29,329 Same here. Same here. You know, when I 38 00:01:29,329 --> 00:01:30,864 saw your work and your 39 00:01:31,165 --> 00:01:32,924 style, I knew this this is a person 40 00:01:32,924 --> 00:01:33,584 we need 41 00:01:33,885 --> 00:01:35,564 to get on the show and to be 42 00:01:35,564 --> 00:01:38,364 in the magazine because I know others can 43 00:01:38,364 --> 00:01:39,584 learn a lot from you. 44 00:01:39,939 --> 00:01:40,680 Thank you. 45 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:42,219 So, 46 00:01:42,659 --> 00:01:43,159 alright. 47 00:01:44,019 --> 00:01:45,700 I guess before we get deep into the 48 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:47,780 photography stuff, why don't you just give us 49 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:49,640 a little of your background, how you 50 00:01:50,185 --> 00:01:52,365 became a actually, a photojournalist. 51 00:01:53,665 --> 00:01:54,165 And, 52 00:01:55,625 --> 00:01:56,924 just tell your story. 53 00:01:57,305 --> 00:01:58,365 Okay. Well, 54 00:01:59,950 --> 00:02:02,829 I started this journey and my journey in 55 00:02:02,829 --> 00:02:03,329 photojournalism 56 00:02:04,670 --> 00:02:06,049 by reading the newspaper 57 00:02:06,484 --> 00:02:07,924 And one day, I was looking at some 58 00:02:07,924 --> 00:02:09,685 of the photographs in the paper, and I 59 00:02:09,685 --> 00:02:10,584 thought to myself, 60 00:02:10,965 --> 00:02:12,344 I can do a better job. 61 00:02:13,365 --> 00:02:15,064 And mind you, this was 62 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,060 about 40 years ago. 63 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,360 And this is a man who had, 64 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,000 the only camera experience I had was with 65 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:22,659 a Brownie 66 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,419 and a Kodak Instamatic. 67 00:02:26,104 --> 00:02:28,824 And so I set myself the task of 68 00:02:28,824 --> 00:02:31,965 learning everything I could about how cameras worked, 69 00:02:32,104 --> 00:02:34,444 how film worked, how developing worked. 70 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:35,800 And, 71 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:38,419 about 9 months later, I had a Nikon 72 00:02:38,419 --> 00:02:40,599 fm2 with a 50 millimeter lens. 73 00:02:40,980 --> 00:02:42,919 I liked new PAM 400. 74 00:02:43,814 --> 00:02:45,275 I had a way of developing, 75 00:02:46,134 --> 00:02:47,914 and I walked into a 76 00:02:49,495 --> 00:02:50,155 a small 77 00:02:50,534 --> 00:02:51,034 weekly 78 00:02:51,334 --> 00:02:51,834 newspaper's 79 00:02:52,375 --> 00:02:52,875 office, 80 00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:55,199 asked the editor for an assignment. 81 00:02:56,300 --> 00:02:58,780 I got one assignment, and I've never looked 82 00:02:58,780 --> 00:02:59,280 back. 83 00:03:00,219 --> 00:03:01,360 Here we are today. 84 00:03:02,224 --> 00:03:03,125 Yeah. Started. 85 00:03:03,985 --> 00:03:05,044 Yeah. That's 86 00:03:05,824 --> 00:03:06,564 a very 87 00:03:06,944 --> 00:03:07,444 interesting, 88 00:03:08,224 --> 00:03:10,145 interesting way to get started. What would have 89 00:03:10,145 --> 00:03:12,290 happened if you didn't get the assignment? 90 00:03:14,510 --> 00:03:16,189 I would have gone back a second or 91 00:03:16,189 --> 00:03:18,750 third time because I've noticed throughout life that 92 00:03:18,750 --> 00:03:21,155 persistence does pay off, and I would have 93 00:03:21,155 --> 00:03:23,334 just kept going back and asking 94 00:03:23,875 --> 00:03:26,275 again for an opportunity. And that's all I 95 00:03:26,275 --> 00:03:27,814 ask. That's all I need. 96 00:03:28,194 --> 00:03:29,794 And once I have it, I will run 97 00:03:29,794 --> 00:03:30,419 with it. 98 00:03:30,979 --> 00:03:33,620 You don't ask? You don't get. Yeah. That's 99 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:35,860 right. And if they say no, then ask 100 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:36,360 why? 101 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:39,800 Tell me why. But be persistent. Be polite, 102 00:03:40,205 --> 00:03:42,544 Which, by the way, is a very, 103 00:03:43,164 --> 00:03:45,344 smart way to work with homeless individuals. 104 00:03:45,645 --> 00:03:46,544 Be polite 105 00:03:47,459 --> 00:03:49,319 when talking with them. Respect them. 106 00:03:49,780 --> 00:03:52,419 I think that applies to every person you 107 00:03:52,419 --> 00:03:53,800 deal with. Absolutely. 108 00:03:55,025 --> 00:03:56,084 And we don't have 109 00:03:56,384 --> 00:03:57,444 very much of it 110 00:03:58,705 --> 00:03:59,764 in these days. 111 00:04:00,544 --> 00:04:01,044 Unfortunately, 112 00:04:01,425 --> 00:04:02,405 you are correct. 113 00:04:04,069 --> 00:04:05,449 But that can change. 114 00:04:06,069 --> 00:04:07,189 Alright. Well, let's, 115 00:04:07,590 --> 00:04:09,849 let's back up a little bit. So you 116 00:04:10,925 --> 00:04:11,824 you were embedded 117 00:04:13,965 --> 00:04:14,465 in, 118 00:04:15,564 --> 00:04:17,665 well, 2 different wars or 119 00:04:18,044 --> 00:04:19,644 say more in 2 different places. I don't 120 00:04:19,644 --> 00:04:21,870 know how you look at it. But how 121 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:24,270 did that happen? How does it how does 122 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:24,770 a 123 00:04:25,310 --> 00:04:26,449 a history professor 124 00:04:27,389 --> 00:04:28,689 wind up on the ground 125 00:04:29,834 --> 00:04:32,794 with them Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan and Iraq. 126 00:04:32,794 --> 00:04:34,095 How how did that happen? 127 00:04:34,475 --> 00:04:34,975 Well, 128 00:04:35,354 --> 00:04:35,754 I, 129 00:04:36,610 --> 00:04:39,569 that weekly newspaper that I referenced a moment 130 00:04:39,569 --> 00:04:40,069 ago 131 00:04:40,449 --> 00:04:42,710 covers Joint Base Lewis McChord. 132 00:04:43,625 --> 00:04:44,125 And, 133 00:04:45,225 --> 00:04:46,845 I, as a photojournalist, 134 00:04:48,425 --> 00:04:50,845 when I photograph and when I wrote stories, 135 00:04:51,779 --> 00:04:54,259 I did what the soldiers were doing. I 136 00:04:54,259 --> 00:04:56,040 am very physically fit. 137 00:04:56,740 --> 00:04:59,379 I have had a fair amount of experience 138 00:04:59,379 --> 00:05:00,279 in the military. 139 00:05:01,035 --> 00:05:03,275 So working with the army, working with the 140 00:05:03,275 --> 00:05:06,254 soldiers was not a big or hard job. 141 00:05:07,115 --> 00:05:09,675 And, one day, I was standing. It was 142 00:05:09,675 --> 00:05:10,175 about 143 00:05:10,779 --> 00:05:12,000 5 o'clock in the morning 144 00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:14,699 with a group of soldiers, and they were 145 00:05:14,699 --> 00:05:17,919 preparing to do a, a physical challenge 146 00:05:18,814 --> 00:05:20,975 that involved things like, you know, wading through 147 00:05:20,975 --> 00:05:23,795 water, crawling through mud, and carrying telephone poles. 148 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:26,550 I was part of that group, but I 149 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:28,009 was also photographing 150 00:05:28,550 --> 00:05:29,610 as we worked. 151 00:05:30,149 --> 00:05:32,810 Anyway, 2 hours and 46 minutes later, 152 00:05:33,805 --> 00:05:35,185 we complete the course, 153 00:05:35,964 --> 00:05:39,085 and the commander of that particular brigade looked 154 00:05:39,085 --> 00:05:41,639 at me and said, I would like you 155 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:44,979 to embed with my brigade when we go 156 00:05:44,979 --> 00:05:45,479 to 157 00:05:45,779 --> 00:05:46,839 Mosul, Baghdad. 158 00:05:47,539 --> 00:05:49,160 And that was in 2,005. 159 00:05:50,345 --> 00:05:50,845 Wow. 160 00:05:51,145 --> 00:05:52,925 I spent 2 months in Mosul 161 00:05:53,705 --> 00:05:55,245 covering the war. I thought 162 00:05:55,625 --> 00:05:58,110 this is this has been my I've I've 163 00:05:58,110 --> 00:05:59,790 done a good job. I was glad to 164 00:05:59,790 --> 00:06:01,790 have done this to tell the story through 165 00:06:01,790 --> 00:06:04,050 photos and writing about our soldiers. 166 00:06:04,805 --> 00:06:07,224 I thought that was it. Well, it wasn't. 167 00:06:07,285 --> 00:06:08,584 It was the first of 168 00:06:09,845 --> 00:06:14,104 5 embedments to Iraq and 3 to Afghanistan. 169 00:06:14,485 --> 00:06:16,629 And, And you were correct earlier. Both were 170 00:06:16,629 --> 00:06:17,370 hot wars. 171 00:06:17,990 --> 00:06:19,129 Both were hot wars. 172 00:06:20,389 --> 00:06:20,889 So 173 00:06:21,805 --> 00:06:22,625 were you ever 174 00:06:23,404 --> 00:06:25,404 in in danger for your own life? Were 175 00:06:25,404 --> 00:06:28,144 you in situations where you're being fired on? 176 00:06:28,444 --> 00:06:28,944 Yes. 177 00:06:29,644 --> 00:06:32,590 That was more often than not. I, like 178 00:06:32,590 --> 00:06:33,730 I say, I 179 00:06:35,629 --> 00:06:37,710 I believe that if you're going if I 180 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:40,944 was going to work with these young men 181 00:06:40,944 --> 00:06:41,605 and women, 182 00:06:42,225 --> 00:06:43,524 that I should face 183 00:06:43,904 --> 00:06:46,165 the same situations that they did. 184 00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:48,550 And so being outside The Wire, 185 00:06:49,810 --> 00:06:50,949 numerous occasions, 186 00:06:51,649 --> 00:06:53,569 on many of those occasions, we did come 187 00:06:53,569 --> 00:06:54,310 under fire. 188 00:06:55,235 --> 00:06:55,975 How much 189 00:06:56,355 --> 00:06:56,855 control 190 00:06:57,714 --> 00:07:00,855 do embedded photographers or journalists have over 191 00:07:01,475 --> 00:07:04,055 what they photograph or what they report? 192 00:07:04,579 --> 00:07:07,000 Is it because they've given you this opportunity, 193 00:07:07,220 --> 00:07:08,819 they're gonna point you in a direction to 194 00:07:08,819 --> 00:07:11,160 do this or that, or is it completely 195 00:07:11,220 --> 00:07:11,959 up to you? 196 00:07:13,665 --> 00:07:15,904 I don't know what it was like for 197 00:07:15,904 --> 00:07:17,685 other journalists and photojournalists. 198 00:07:18,705 --> 00:07:19,444 For me, 199 00:07:21,649 --> 00:07:22,949 I knew the brigade. 200 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:24,629 I knew the command. 201 00:07:25,569 --> 00:07:28,149 I knew the process before embedding. 202 00:07:28,935 --> 00:07:30,295 So when I was embedded 203 00:07:30,774 --> 00:07:33,754 Mhmm. I had a pretty much free 204 00:07:34,455 --> 00:07:34,955 hand 205 00:07:35,949 --> 00:07:38,430 in covering what I wanted to cover. At 206 00:07:38,430 --> 00:07:40,829 no point was I censored. At no point 207 00:07:40,829 --> 00:07:42,849 was I directed or steered. 208 00:07:43,574 --> 00:07:45,754 I had a like I say, I was, 209 00:07:45,895 --> 00:07:47,514 in many ways, I was trusted. 210 00:07:48,055 --> 00:07:50,795 And I think developing that bond of trust 211 00:07:50,855 --> 00:07:53,540 with your host, in this case, the brigade, 212 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,980 was important to the success I had. 213 00:07:59,254 --> 00:08:01,894 Where did that work go? Was that did 214 00:08:01,894 --> 00:08:03,014 they did the army 215 00:08:04,055 --> 00:08:05,735 or did the army use it for anything, 216 00:08:05,735 --> 00:08:08,269 or was it No. Just yours? This? No. 217 00:08:08,649 --> 00:08:11,769 This that small newspaper I referenced earlier. Okay. 218 00:08:11,769 --> 00:08:14,009 Yeah. It but it that paper is the 219 00:08:14,009 --> 00:08:14,990 Ranger Newspaper. 220 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:18,105 It is a privately owned weekly newspaper that's 221 00:08:18,105 --> 00:08:20,925 been in business for almost 70 years. 222 00:08:21,865 --> 00:08:25,165 And the paper has a readership of about 223 00:08:25,225 --> 00:08:25,725 30,000, 224 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,860 and it's in the Pacific Northwest. 225 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,579 So it was I, that 226 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,240 was it's the images are still mine, and 227 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,855 they ran them. So and the stories. Wow. 228 00:08:38,554 --> 00:08:39,455 Yeah. It's 229 00:08:42,075 --> 00:08:44,414 Deranger, did they primarily cover 230 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:47,180 Joint base Muslim corps. Days. Okay. And the 231 00:08:47,180 --> 00:08:50,460 reserve community, the active duty community, the guard 232 00:08:50,460 --> 00:08:51,600 community. Correct. 233 00:08:52,595 --> 00:08:54,914 The I I don't know if you've heard 234 00:08:54,914 --> 00:08:57,554 many of our podcasts or well, you you 235 00:08:57,554 --> 00:08:59,254 said you've listened to quite a few. 236 00:08:59,730 --> 00:09:02,290 Sometimes I talk about my grandfather, my my 237 00:09:02,290 --> 00:09:05,170 mother's father, who was a newspaper man in 238 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:05,670 Indiana. 239 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:08,550 So so you say you're you're from Indiana? 240 00:09:09,134 --> 00:09:09,634 Yep. 241 00:09:09,934 --> 00:09:12,334 And, he was he was the publisher of 242 00:09:12,334 --> 00:09:14,274 the Kokomo Tribune in Kokomo. 243 00:09:14,815 --> 00:09:15,954 And after he retired, 244 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,080 he started a newspaper, a small town newspaper 245 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,019 in, Greentown, Indiana, 246 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,500 which is not far from Kokomo. 247 00:09:25,995 --> 00:09:26,894 And he eventually, 248 00:09:28,634 --> 00:09:30,735 started to publish the base newspaper 249 00:09:31,434 --> 00:09:33,134 for what was Bunker Hill, 250 00:09:34,309 --> 00:09:35,289 Air Force Base 251 00:09:35,909 --> 00:09:39,029 in Peru, Indiana. It's spelled like the country 252 00:09:39,029 --> 00:09:41,289 Peru, but they kinda pronounce it Peru. 253 00:09:42,154 --> 00:09:43,914 And and, eventually, they changed the name to 254 00:09:43,914 --> 00:09:45,934 Grissom Air Force Base after 255 00:09:47,034 --> 00:09:48,014 after Gus Grissom. 256 00:09:48,634 --> 00:09:49,134 And 257 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,660 so, yeah, he published their newspaper, 258 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:53,620 and 259 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,759 he was there a lot. When I was 260 00:09:55,759 --> 00:09:56,899 in high school, 261 00:09:57,754 --> 00:09:58,254 he 262 00:09:58,634 --> 00:10:00,554 took my friend and I up there, and 263 00:10:00,554 --> 00:10:02,634 they let us get in let us, 264 00:10:04,634 --> 00:10:06,414 fly a simulator of 265 00:10:07,300 --> 00:10:08,920 of the, the hustler. 266 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:13,460 What what was it? What was what's the 267 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:15,240 hustler? The hustler? Is it b 268 00:10:15,804 --> 00:10:16,304 58? 269 00:10:17,485 --> 00:10:19,004 No. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, 270 00:10:19,004 --> 00:10:20,285 okay. Well, I thought you were Air Force, 271 00:10:20,285 --> 00:10:22,144 so that you might. I was, but 272 00:10:22,629 --> 00:10:23,610 I I flew on a C-141. 273 00:10:24,629 --> 00:10:27,289 Oh, okay. Yeah. It's a little different, different. 274 00:10:27,830 --> 00:10:30,745 Different plane. Different plane. Yeah. Anyway, it was 275 00:10:30,745 --> 00:10:31,705 a bomber, you know? 276 00:10:32,424 --> 00:10:32,924 Anyway, 277 00:10:33,464 --> 00:10:35,065 so we got to do that. I I 278 00:10:35,065 --> 00:10:36,584 I thought it was it was pretty cool. 279 00:10:36,584 --> 00:10:38,345 And then they let him he got to 280 00:10:38,345 --> 00:10:40,649 ride in a fighter jet. And they Yeah. 281 00:10:40,730 --> 00:10:42,029 Blew up to Alaska 282 00:10:42,409 --> 00:10:44,809 and back and then, like, to California and 283 00:10:44,809 --> 00:10:46,730 back, you know, in one day, of course. 284 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:47,230 Yeah. 285 00:10:47,929 --> 00:10:49,149 Yeah. That was 286 00:10:49,804 --> 00:10:50,705 what an experience. 287 00:10:51,644 --> 00:10:53,585 I think you might be thinking that B 288 00:10:54,044 --> 00:10:55,325 52, which was the, 289 00:10:56,044 --> 00:10:56,785 Air Force's 290 00:10:57,169 --> 00:10:59,889 predominant bomber. No. No. This is they don't 291 00:10:59,889 --> 00:11:02,289 they don't fly it anymore. It's called the 292 00:11:02,289 --> 00:11:04,049 Hustler. I'm gonna I'm gonna look it up 293 00:11:04,049 --> 00:11:05,589 here after we're done here. 294 00:11:05,924 --> 00:11:07,764 Oh my. Matter of fact, that was the 295 00:11:07,764 --> 00:11:09,304 name of the newspaper. 296 00:11:10,324 --> 00:11:10,824 Okay. 297 00:11:13,019 --> 00:11:15,100 But, I won't stop here, Dub, but I'm 298 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:16,459 I'm gonna look it up because it was 299 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:17,440 Yeah. 300 00:11:17,820 --> 00:11:19,019 It was, something 301 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:20,715 they they didn't use it 302 00:11:21,274 --> 00:11:22,415 much, I guess. 303 00:11:23,915 --> 00:11:24,735 Well, whatever. 304 00:11:25,355 --> 00:11:26,975 We're not here to talk about bombers. 305 00:11:27,355 --> 00:11:28,415 Yeah. Yes. So 306 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:29,730 so 307 00:11:31,149 --> 00:11:33,149 where was I anyway? So, yeah, I think 308 00:11:33,149 --> 00:11:34,929 that's that's so interesting. Now 309 00:11:35,870 --> 00:11:37,250 all the time you spent 310 00:11:37,884 --> 00:11:40,205 basically as an embedded photojournalist, how did that 311 00:11:40,205 --> 00:11:40,705 affect 312 00:11:41,164 --> 00:11:43,745 your personal style? And how did it, 313 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:47,720 what did you learn in that process that 314 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:48,459 helps you 315 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:50,220 photographing 316 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,639 the homeless from really deep inside? I mean, 317 00:11:53,639 --> 00:11:54,379 you're practically 318 00:11:54,955 --> 00:11:57,455 embedded in their lives, it looks to me. 319 00:11:58,634 --> 00:12:00,014 That is a fair assessment. 320 00:12:01,595 --> 00:12:03,149 What did I take 321 00:12:03,610 --> 00:12:05,230 from the experiences embedded 322 00:12:05,769 --> 00:12:06,269 photojournalists? 323 00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:07,950 I think 324 00:12:08,809 --> 00:12:09,309 the 325 00:12:11,504 --> 00:12:12,004 the 326 00:12:12,785 --> 00:12:15,285 you have to show a measure of respect 327 00:12:15,585 --> 00:12:17,985 to your subject, whether that subject is a 328 00:12:17,985 --> 00:12:18,485 soldier, 329 00:12:21,009 --> 00:12:23,269 homeless person, if you're covering a 330 00:12:24,129 --> 00:12:24,629 parade. 331 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:28,325 It's the respect you give to your subject, 332 00:12:28,404 --> 00:12:30,184 and I think that's first and foremost. 333 00:12:31,285 --> 00:12:32,585 I also have a tendency 334 00:12:33,445 --> 00:12:34,745 to work close. 335 00:12:35,365 --> 00:12:36,345 Yes. You do. 336 00:12:36,659 --> 00:12:38,100 I told I used to tell I used 337 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,179 to teach every so often when I wasn't 338 00:12:40,179 --> 00:12:42,360 teaching history class. I teach a class in 339 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:44,039 photography and photojournalism. 340 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:46,039 I used to tell students 341 00:12:46,534 --> 00:12:48,054 don't be afraid to get close enough where 342 00:12:48,054 --> 00:12:49,355 you can hear their heart beating 343 00:12:50,054 --> 00:12:52,215 because then you're going to fill the frame. 344 00:12:52,215 --> 00:12:53,514 You're going to tell a story 345 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:54,789 and you 346 00:12:55,169 --> 00:12:56,389 want that eye contact. 347 00:12:57,409 --> 00:12:59,730 But so when when I for what I 348 00:12:59,730 --> 00:13:02,769 carry over from my experiences in Afghanistan and 349 00:13:02,769 --> 00:13:03,269 Iraq 350 00:13:04,125 --> 00:13:06,285 is that don't be afraid to, you know, 351 00:13:06,285 --> 00:13:09,404 be respectful and get close. Tell a good 352 00:13:09,404 --> 00:13:09,904 story, 353 00:13:10,925 --> 00:13:13,325 by doing that. And that is exactly what 354 00:13:13,325 --> 00:13:14,289 I do, 355 00:13:14,750 --> 00:13:17,250 with my work as a documentary photographer. 356 00:13:18,750 --> 00:13:22,029 Yeah. Those are words of wisdom, and and 357 00:13:22,029 --> 00:13:23,164 you live by it. 358 00:13:25,084 --> 00:13:27,485 It's funny. Ashley and I were were looking 359 00:13:27,485 --> 00:13:28,384 at your work, 360 00:13:29,644 --> 00:13:31,105 your your most recent, 361 00:13:31,565 --> 00:13:32,125 the the, 362 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:34,620 the jungle story. 363 00:13:36,039 --> 00:13:36,539 And, 364 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:38,059 she said 365 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,679 she goes, wow. How did you know, he 366 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:41,985 must have a lot of guts to go 367 00:13:41,985 --> 00:13:43,845 in there in into that encampment. 368 00:13:44,865 --> 00:13:45,345 And, 369 00:13:45,745 --> 00:13:47,105 and then I told her how you were 370 00:13:47,105 --> 00:13:49,105 embedded in Iraq. And she goes, okay. Never 371 00:13:49,105 --> 00:13:49,605 mind. 372 00:13:50,019 --> 00:13:51,399 That's where I got it. 373 00:13:53,139 --> 00:13:55,059 Yeah. There's a little bit of that, but, 374 00:13:55,779 --> 00:13:58,039 it's interesting you make that comment because 375 00:13:58,340 --> 00:13:59,240 you are correct, 376 00:13:59,894 --> 00:14:01,035 or I have noticed 377 00:14:01,575 --> 00:14:03,195 there is a difference between, 378 00:14:04,134 --> 00:14:05,035 working with 379 00:14:05,415 --> 00:14:08,235 individuals who live in an encampment 380 00:14:09,170 --> 00:14:10,550 as opposed to 381 00:14:10,929 --> 00:14:13,190 the homeless who live on the streets. Mhmm. 382 00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:17,250 I have and it is much it is 383 00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:17,750 easier 384 00:14:18,585 --> 00:14:19,085 to 385 00:14:19,945 --> 00:14:20,445 photograph, 386 00:14:20,825 --> 00:14:21,725 talk with, 387 00:14:22,184 --> 00:14:23,164 associate with 388 00:14:23,544 --> 00:14:25,325 the homeless who live on the streets 389 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,799 than it is with the homeless who are 390 00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:29,799 living in an encampment. There's a there's a 391 00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:31,179 much more of a closed, 392 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,419 a little more suspicious. 393 00:14:34,065 --> 00:14:35,345 And I understand that. 394 00:14:35,825 --> 00:14:38,164 I understand that because they'll tell you why 395 00:14:38,464 --> 00:14:39,524 they are that way. 396 00:14:40,144 --> 00:14:42,200 But there is definitely a difference. And, yeah, 397 00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:44,299 sometimes it can get a little 398 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:47,259 what's the word I want? Dicey 399 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,815 in an encampment that you have not experienced 400 00:14:51,815 --> 00:14:52,634 on the streets. 401 00:14:53,975 --> 00:14:55,654 I'd like to take a quick break to 402 00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:58,315 thank the Street Photography Magazine subscribers 403 00:14:58,774 --> 00:14:59,674 for your support. 404 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,639 We couldn't do this without you. You may 405 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:05,200 have noticed that we don't sell advertising or 406 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:05,700 sponsorships 407 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,700 in the podcast, or inside Street Photography Magazine 408 00:15:10,324 --> 00:15:12,324 itself, and that's because we want to be 409 00:15:12,324 --> 00:15:15,284 completely objective about the work we publish, and 410 00:15:15,284 --> 00:15:17,144 the services and gear that we cover. 411 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:18,710 Our only constituent 412 00:15:19,169 --> 00:15:21,269 is you, our listeners and readers. 413 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:23,490 So if you like what we're doing, you 414 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:25,110 can support the show by 415 00:15:25,535 --> 00:15:28,595 subscribing to Street Photography Magazine. It's only $5 416 00:15:28,735 --> 00:15:30,254 per month, and you can do it by 417 00:15:30,254 --> 00:15:30,754 visiting 418 00:15:31,215 --> 00:15:31,715 streetphotographymagazine.com 419 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:35,009 slash subscribe. 420 00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:37,490 And now back to the show. 421 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:41,649 So you were you were telling me earlier, 422 00:15:42,509 --> 00:15:45,464 as part of your career as a history 423 00:15:45,464 --> 00:15:48,284 professor, you also taught a course on Vietnam. 424 00:15:50,424 --> 00:15:50,924 And 425 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:54,399 I remember Vietnam as a kid, 426 00:15:55,019 --> 00:15:56,639 and it was always on television. 427 00:15:58,220 --> 00:16:00,304 It was probably the first war that was 428 00:16:00,304 --> 00:16:01,845 ever covered like that, 429 00:16:02,705 --> 00:16:05,024 to to that degree, and and and had 430 00:16:05,024 --> 00:16:08,004 a big effect on people's opinions back home. 431 00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:10,860 And having been one of the people who 432 00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:11,519 were embedded 433 00:16:12,379 --> 00:16:14,540 in one of today or 2 of today's 434 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:15,519 wars, I mean, 435 00:16:17,144 --> 00:16:18,605 is there a big difference 436 00:16:19,225 --> 00:16:19,725 between 437 00:16:21,144 --> 00:16:21,644 how 438 00:16:21,945 --> 00:16:24,424 the journalists back in the seventies and the 439 00:16:24,424 --> 00:16:25,565 sixties operated 440 00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:27,799 as compared to, 441 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:32,019 the journalists today or now it's 20 years 442 00:16:32,019 --> 00:16:32,519 ago? 443 00:16:35,355 --> 00:16:37,434 That's a very good question. And, again, I 444 00:16:37,434 --> 00:16:39,995 can only go on what I experienced. Mhmm. 445 00:16:39,995 --> 00:16:43,199 If it's If I compare myself to the 446 00:16:43,579 --> 00:16:44,079 mobility 447 00:16:45,179 --> 00:16:47,279 and the ability to move around theater 448 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:49,919 like the photojournalists did in Vietnam, 449 00:16:51,414 --> 00:16:53,735 I pretty much had the same going for 450 00:16:53,735 --> 00:16:54,235 me. 451 00:16:55,254 --> 00:16:57,894 But saying that, I also know in Iraq 452 00:16:57,894 --> 00:16:58,554 and Afghanistan 453 00:16:59,095 --> 00:16:59,595 that 454 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,820 other journalists 455 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,100 and photojournalists 456 00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:04,980 did not have the same mobility. 457 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,299 So I think 458 00:17:08,304 --> 00:17:09,444 it comes down to 459 00:17:09,904 --> 00:17:10,964 how I approached 460 00:17:11,904 --> 00:17:14,384 my subject matter, how I approached the military, 461 00:17:14,384 --> 00:17:16,369 how I approached the army, how I got 462 00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:19,029 to know the brigade commander and its leadership, 463 00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:22,289 and then focus on a particular, say, a 464 00:17:22,289 --> 00:17:25,029 particular battalion, get to know that leadership. 465 00:17:26,115 --> 00:17:27,974 I became someone that, 466 00:17:28,674 --> 00:17:30,934 as I used to tell myself on missions, 467 00:17:31,555 --> 00:17:33,715 you are an asset. You do not become 468 00:17:33,715 --> 00:17:34,375 a liability 469 00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:35,970 to these men 470 00:17:36,269 --> 00:17:37,950 and women who are putting their lives on 471 00:17:37,950 --> 00:17:38,529 the line. 472 00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:41,150 And, for me, it it, in a sense, 473 00:17:41,150 --> 00:17:43,329 it it paid off. I, 474 00:17:44,015 --> 00:17:46,275 I had a great deal of mobility 475 00:17:46,894 --> 00:17:47,634 and latitude 476 00:17:48,255 --> 00:17:50,115 in every time I was embedded. 477 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:52,230 I mean, heck, Bob. I was on a 478 00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:55,029 150 plus combat missions. I mean, I I 479 00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:57,190 really got to know what was going on 480 00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:59,110 and who was doing what and how something 481 00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:01,554 might should go. And so, yeah, there was 482 00:18:01,554 --> 00:18:02,454 there was some 483 00:18:02,914 --> 00:18:04,134 reciprocity there. 484 00:18:04,835 --> 00:18:06,855 Did were you ever in a situation where 485 00:18:06,914 --> 00:18:08,855 you yourself had to shoot back? 486 00:18:09,589 --> 00:18:11,349 Yeah. I suppose I can answer that question 487 00:18:11,349 --> 00:18:13,349 now because we've got some time between us. 488 00:18:13,349 --> 00:18:15,109 Oh. Yeah. Four times I put the camera 489 00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:16,410 down and I, 490 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:18,329 used a sidearm. 491 00:18:18,715 --> 00:18:19,215 Yes. 492 00:18:20,555 --> 00:18:21,934 Because at that point, 493 00:18:22,475 --> 00:18:23,695 I mean, 1st and foremost, 494 00:18:25,434 --> 00:18:25,934 these 495 00:18:26,309 --> 00:18:28,549 young men and women, they're risking their lives. 496 00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:30,970 And if I can help 497 00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:35,105 defend those lives, sure, I certainly 498 00:18:35,644 --> 00:18:37,585 was not adverse to doing so. 499 00:18:40,444 --> 00:18:41,744 Oh, he had no choice. 500 00:18:42,809 --> 00:18:45,130 Yeah. That is exactly right. It was there 501 00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:47,690 were several instances where it was all hands 502 00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:48,429 on deck. 503 00:18:49,664 --> 00:18:51,845 So do you have any of the photographs 504 00:18:52,065 --> 00:18:54,384 now? I'm sure you do. Or or have 505 00:18:54,384 --> 00:18:55,984 you shown any of your work that you 506 00:18:55,984 --> 00:18:56,484 made? 507 00:18:59,049 --> 00:19:01,309 With regard to, Iraq and Afghanistan? 508 00:19:01,690 --> 00:19:02,569 Yeah. Just 509 00:19:03,369 --> 00:19:05,849 yes. I give I've given a number of 510 00:19:05,849 --> 00:19:06,224 public 511 00:19:08,224 --> 00:19:08,724 exhibitions, 512 00:19:09,984 --> 00:19:12,005 usually set to music and video. 513 00:19:13,105 --> 00:19:13,845 And then 514 00:19:14,339 --> 00:19:16,920 a couple years ago, I donated 515 00:19:17,859 --> 00:19:20,359 a number of those images to the 516 00:19:21,515 --> 00:19:24,494 Army War College at Carlisle Barracks, Pennsylvania. 517 00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:26,875 Really? I was also out here at Joint 518 00:19:26,875 --> 00:19:29,230 Base Lewis McChord. There's a museum And I 519 00:19:29,230 --> 00:19:31,569 also did the same thing. I left I've 520 00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:33,869 given a number of those images to that 521 00:19:33,869 --> 00:19:34,369 museum. 522 00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:36,849 But, yes, I have 523 00:19:38,505 --> 00:19:39,785 used to, you know 524 00:19:40,345 --> 00:19:42,585 I'd be invited by, say, the VFW, or 525 00:19:42,585 --> 00:19:44,184 I was invited once by the city of 526 00:19:44,184 --> 00:19:45,164 Lakewood, Washington. 527 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,620 Show up with a video and your photographs, 528 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,279 and you talk about it, and you engage 529 00:19:50,279 --> 00:19:52,779 in a conversation with your audience. Yeah. 530 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,005 It has I have done that. Yeah. That's 531 00:19:56,005 --> 00:19:56,904 really cool. 532 00:19:58,805 --> 00:20:00,105 I should point out here, 533 00:20:00,404 --> 00:20:02,724 and it it doves in it dovetails nicely 534 00:20:02,724 --> 00:20:05,819 with the idea of photographing the homeless. 535 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,220 I don't do this for me. 536 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,160 I did it for the men and women 537 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:11,900 who served. 538 00:20:12,474 --> 00:20:13,674 And as far as, 539 00:20:14,875 --> 00:20:17,215 the documentary on the homeless, 540 00:20:18,154 --> 00:20:20,154 I want their story told. This has nothing 541 00:20:20,154 --> 00:20:22,829 to do with me. It has everything to 542 00:20:22,829 --> 00:20:23,970 do with these individuals. 543 00:20:26,109 --> 00:20:26,609 Yes. 544 00:20:27,869 --> 00:20:29,009 That's when you make 545 00:20:29,684 --> 00:20:32,325 the really good work, I think. Exactly. I 546 00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,325 think we were talking earlier, and I said, 547 00:20:34,325 --> 00:20:36,184 I don't go out looking for a photograph. 548 00:20:36,404 --> 00:20:38,940 Yeah. No. They come to me. I just 549 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:41,039 let it happen. I just, you know, 550 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,820 I don't take a lot of photographs when 551 00:20:43,820 --> 00:20:44,480 I'm out. 552 00:20:46,144 --> 00:20:48,644 I do emphasize quality over quantity. 553 00:20:49,504 --> 00:20:51,904 But, when I start, you know, I may 554 00:20:51,904 --> 00:20:54,244 sit and talk for 20, 25, 30 minutes 555 00:20:54,529 --> 00:20:56,710 with a group of homeless men and women. 556 00:20:57,170 --> 00:20:58,450 And then along the way, I say, hey. 557 00:20:58,450 --> 00:20:59,910 Do you mind if I make a photograph 558 00:21:00,049 --> 00:21:00,789 or 2? 559 00:21:01,170 --> 00:21:02,630 And, I mean, it's literally 560 00:21:04,045 --> 00:21:05,184 1, 2, 3. 561 00:21:05,964 --> 00:21:07,025 But, by that time, 562 00:21:07,404 --> 00:21:09,325 I pretty much have an idea how I'm 563 00:21:09,325 --> 00:21:12,019 going to compose this. I mean, everything else 564 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,220 becomes almost 565 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,360 automatic. You know, your s you know, your 566 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,600 ISO or your f stop. Yeah. You've got 567 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:18,259 it composed. 568 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:19,299 Just 569 00:21:19,734 --> 00:21:20,474 do it. 570 00:21:21,494 --> 00:21:21,994 Wow. 571 00:21:22,295 --> 00:21:22,795 You're, 572 00:21:23,894 --> 00:21:25,494 I know you've been a subscriber for a 573 00:21:25,494 --> 00:21:26,535 while. I don't know if you've ever had 574 00:21:26,535 --> 00:21:27,914 a chance to look back. 575 00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:31,759 It was a couple years ago. We featured, 576 00:21:34,059 --> 00:21:35,119 Jeremy Stevens 577 00:21:35,625 --> 00:21:36,125 who, 578 00:21:37,305 --> 00:21:37,805 he's, 579 00:21:39,944 --> 00:21:41,805 he was a drill sergeant 580 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:44,339 in the army, and 581 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,900 he this this was several years ago. 582 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,480 He he doesn't live too far from me. 583 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,059 He lives 584 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:51,220 nearby Fredericksburg, Virginia. 585 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:52,099 And, 586 00:21:53,575 --> 00:21:56,234 but as a drill sergeant, he photographed his 587 00:21:56,615 --> 00:21:57,355 his troops, 588 00:21:57,654 --> 00:21:59,255 these kids they were training. You know, they 589 00:21:59,255 --> 00:22:00,855 were all, like, right out of high school, 590 00:22:00,855 --> 00:22:02,720 but he just he really 591 00:22:03,579 --> 00:22:05,339 you know, as a drill sergeant, he had 592 00:22:05,339 --> 00:22:07,019 to be hard on him, but he he 593 00:22:07,019 --> 00:22:07,759 loved them. 594 00:22:08,140 --> 00:22:10,734 And, you know, I had very deep feelings 595 00:22:10,734 --> 00:22:11,934 for them, and you can see it in 596 00:22:11,934 --> 00:22:12,674 his work. 597 00:22:13,375 --> 00:22:14,195 And he, 598 00:22:15,775 --> 00:22:17,795 he does, obviously, he does street photography, 599 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:20,419 and he also photographs, 600 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:23,679 the Bluegrass community in this part of the 601 00:22:23,679 --> 00:22:24,480 country. And, 602 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:26,899 but his work with those kits, 603 00:22:28,085 --> 00:22:31,125 to me was really special because, you know, 604 00:22:31,125 --> 00:22:33,065 you could tell he really cared about him. 605 00:22:33,205 --> 00:22:33,705 Mhmm. 606 00:22:34,244 --> 00:22:36,669 And, and and I see that in your 607 00:22:36,669 --> 00:22:37,649 work as well. 608 00:22:39,629 --> 00:22:40,929 Thank you. For sojokes. 609 00:22:42,349 --> 00:22:44,681 Yes. I mean, you're you're you're you're touching 610 00:22:44,681 --> 00:22:46,515 a nerve here with me because 611 00:22:47,454 --> 00:22:47,954 my 612 00:22:50,335 --> 00:22:50,835 feelings 613 00:22:51,134 --> 00:22:52,674 about the homeless 614 00:22:53,210 --> 00:22:54,269 is that I'm afraid 615 00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:56,910 that they are being marginalized. 616 00:22:57,369 --> 00:22:58,589 They are being ignored. 617 00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:01,529 They are talked about as a line item 618 00:23:01,529 --> 00:23:02,349 in a budget. 619 00:23:03,234 --> 00:23:06,615 That that the the whole condition of homelessness 620 00:23:06,674 --> 00:23:07,974 has become sort of 621 00:23:08,355 --> 00:23:09,734 normalized in America, 622 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:12,569 And, they are stereotyped. 623 00:23:13,589 --> 00:23:16,409 And, none of that is true. And, if 624 00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:17,690 my photographs 625 00:23:18,494 --> 00:23:19,234 of them 626 00:23:20,095 --> 00:23:21,315 can move the needle 627 00:23:21,934 --> 00:23:24,255 any closer to we need to address this 628 00:23:24,255 --> 00:23:25,694 problem and we need to do it in 629 00:23:25,694 --> 00:23:27,075 a logical, compassionate, 630 00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:28,809 concise manner. 631 00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:31,750 That's all I need to know. That's all 632 00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:32,730 I give a damn 633 00:23:34,924 --> 00:23:35,424 The, 634 00:23:36,764 --> 00:23:37,424 so many 635 00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:40,944 of us, I'll say, us, people 636 00:23:41,619 --> 00:23:42,440 who wanna make 637 00:23:42,980 --> 00:23:44,119 good street photographs 638 00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:47,460 are always on the hunt for a cool 639 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:47,960 shot. 640 00:23:48,714 --> 00:23:49,214 Yeah. 641 00:23:49,554 --> 00:23:50,054 And 642 00:23:50,794 --> 00:23:52,714 I'm I'm looking for a shot that 643 00:23:53,515 --> 00:23:55,214 you know, it's the nice thing about documentary 644 00:23:55,275 --> 00:23:57,694 photography. It doesn't have to be perfect. 645 00:23:58,179 --> 00:23:59,619 Yes. It doesn't have to be it can 646 00:23:59,619 --> 00:24:00,119 be 647 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:02,440 it could you you can make 648 00:24:03,140 --> 00:24:04,440 compositional mistakes, 649 00:24:05,705 --> 00:24:06,765 but if the photograph 650 00:24:07,065 --> 00:24:07,565 works, 651 00:24:09,065 --> 00:24:09,964 you've done your job. 652 00:24:10,505 --> 00:24:12,265 And and like I say, with regard to 653 00:24:12,265 --> 00:24:12,924 the homeless, 654 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:15,919 that is all I wanna do. It is 655 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,740 like I 656 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,980 say, it's not about me. 657 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:20,179 It's about 658 00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:22,339 what you see 659 00:24:22,744 --> 00:24:25,005 when you look into their eyes. 660 00:24:25,785 --> 00:24:28,345 That's what this is about. You also mentioned 661 00:24:28,345 --> 00:24:31,144 this this gentleman, Jeremy Stephens, that it reminded 662 00:24:31,144 --> 00:24:31,644 me 663 00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:33,920 of a podcast you did recently 664 00:24:34,779 --> 00:24:37,019 of a photographer, a street photographer by the 665 00:24:37,019 --> 00:24:39,519 name of Valerie Jardine. Oh, yeah. 666 00:24:39,865 --> 00:24:42,045 And I think she, 667 00:24:43,065 --> 00:24:44,744 when I read when I listened to the 668 00:24:44,744 --> 00:24:47,484 podcast, I thought, she's got it figured out. 669 00:24:48,049 --> 00:24:50,630 Well, she's quite good. Yeah. I work 670 00:24:51,089 --> 00:24:53,829 her idea, that idea, work with limitations. 671 00:24:54,369 --> 00:24:55,829 It's a paradoxical, 672 00:24:56,455 --> 00:24:57,275 almost oxymoronic 673 00:24:57,815 --> 00:24:58,315 idea, 674 00:24:58,775 --> 00:24:59,275 but 675 00:24:59,575 --> 00:25:02,615 that's exactly what I use here, again, with 676 00:25:02,615 --> 00:25:03,275 the homeless. 677 00:25:04,150 --> 00:25:04,970 One camera, 678 00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:06,170 one lens. 679 00:25:06,869 --> 00:25:09,350 As the Marines would say, when you have 680 00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:11,529 nothing to work with, work with nothing. 681 00:25:12,265 --> 00:25:13,085 No excuses. 682 00:25:14,744 --> 00:25:16,204 Complete the mission. And, 683 00:25:16,585 --> 00:25:18,765 I think she put her finger 684 00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:20,789 on a lot of 685 00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:23,029 ideas and thoughts that I've had 686 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:25,509 when it comes to the actual photography. 687 00:25:26,345 --> 00:25:27,965 Yeah. When you look at her work, 688 00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:30,445 I think virtually 689 00:25:30,985 --> 00:25:32,045 pardon? I'm humbled 690 00:25:32,664 --> 00:25:34,009 when I see her work. I think Oh, 691 00:25:34,009 --> 00:25:34,990 yeah. She's 692 00:25:35,289 --> 00:25:36,990 she's good. Yeah. She's a real deal. 693 00:25:37,529 --> 00:25:39,210 I think, every one of those is made 694 00:25:39,210 --> 00:25:41,125 with a Fuji X100 695 00:25:41,505 --> 00:25:44,144 series camera, which is a 35 millimeter lens 696 00:25:44,144 --> 00:25:45,765 equivalent. Yep. That's it. 697 00:25:46,225 --> 00:25:47,285 Yep. That's it. 698 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:50,759 I use speaking of cameras, I like to 699 00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:51,820 use an Olympus, 700 00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:55,000 M1 Mark 2. Mhmm. It's a, 701 00:25:56,605 --> 00:25:57,345 an 18, 702 00:25:57,805 --> 00:26:00,545 excuse me, 8 to 18 millimeter Leica 703 00:26:00,924 --> 00:26:01,424 lens. 704 00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:02,845 Really? And I, 705 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,079 the other time every every once in a 706 00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:07,579 while, I'll go out with an old used 707 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,099 Nikon DF 708 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,355 with a 24 millimeter lens. Yeah. That's and 709 00:26:12,355 --> 00:26:14,694 that's another thing about my photography. 710 00:26:15,555 --> 00:26:17,974 I'm not hung up on megapixels 711 00:26:18,515 --> 00:26:19,894 and sensor size 712 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:21,339 nonsense. 713 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,500 I think Pretty much. Yep. 714 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,640 The the key the camera you've got in 715 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,299 your hand is the best camera. Use it. 716 00:26:28,765 --> 00:26:30,144 Yeah. Yep. Yep. 717 00:26:30,525 --> 00:26:31,345 I agree. 718 00:26:32,365 --> 00:26:32,525 The, 719 00:26:34,365 --> 00:26:35,424 I was gonna say 720 00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:37,029 not long ago, 721 00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:38,849 I heard from, 722 00:26:39,570 --> 00:26:42,049 another photographer we've we've had on a few 723 00:26:42,049 --> 00:26:44,309 times, Pia Perlin. She's 724 00:26:45,184 --> 00:26:45,684 she's, 725 00:26:47,585 --> 00:26:48,884 like, French battalion. 726 00:26:49,345 --> 00:26:50,325 She's a scientist, 727 00:26:51,424 --> 00:26:51,924 biologist, 728 00:26:53,299 --> 00:26:54,119 great photographer, 729 00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:55,720 great street photographer. 730 00:26:56,180 --> 00:26:58,920 She wrote a article that we're gonna publish, 731 00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:01,605 and she made a point was the more 732 00:27:01,605 --> 00:27:02,105 personal 733 00:27:02,884 --> 00:27:04,265 your photograph is, 734 00:27:06,644 --> 00:27:08,244 the more personal it is to you, the 735 00:27:08,244 --> 00:27:09,465 more universal 736 00:27:09,924 --> 00:27:10,505 it is 737 00:27:10,830 --> 00:27:12,450 to every everyone else. 738 00:27:13,789 --> 00:27:14,289 And 739 00:27:15,150 --> 00:27:16,750 I thought, gee, that makes a lot of 740 00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:17,250 sense. 741 00:27:18,245 --> 00:27:20,884 Yeah. It does. And and I see that 742 00:27:20,884 --> 00:27:22,485 I see that in your work. I can 743 00:27:22,485 --> 00:27:23,785 tell it's quite personal. 744 00:27:24,485 --> 00:27:26,259 Yes. And I got may I just from 745 00:27:26,259 --> 00:27:27,619 looking at the photograph, I can see you 746 00:27:27,619 --> 00:27:28,599 spend time, 747 00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:30,119 like you said, 748 00:27:31,619 --> 00:27:33,000 getting to know these people 749 00:27:33,299 --> 00:27:35,244 and and being very respectful 750 00:27:35,705 --> 00:27:37,465 when you come to make a photograph of 751 00:27:37,465 --> 00:27:39,724 them. And it and it just shows, 752 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,680 I guess, the universal nature of of all 753 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,340 of us. 754 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,759 You know, we all want the same things. 755 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:49,460 We wanna be safe. We want, 756 00:27:50,595 --> 00:27:51,255 you know, 757 00:27:51,555 --> 00:27:53,955 food, and we want our families to be 758 00:27:53,955 --> 00:27:55,015 safe. And, 759 00:27:56,195 --> 00:27:56,934 if we don't 760 00:27:57,235 --> 00:27:59,080 have a bad habit of this. It never 761 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,700 escapes my attention that 762 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,559 I know that I can go back to 763 00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:04,299 my home. 764 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,059 I can go to the refrigerator. 765 00:28:06,724 --> 00:28:09,845 I can watch television. Yeah. I will I 766 00:28:09,845 --> 00:28:11,305 have a bed to sleep in. 767 00:28:11,765 --> 00:28:12,825 And when you're 768 00:28:13,285 --> 00:28:14,184 working with 769 00:28:14,890 --> 00:28:16,990 people who spent the night 770 00:28:17,849 --> 00:28:18,750 on the sidewalk 771 00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:21,390 or who live under 772 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:22,190 tarps 773 00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:23,549 and tents 774 00:28:24,195 --> 00:28:27,634 and it's raining outside or it's 14 degrees 775 00:28:27,634 --> 00:28:28,775 outside. Yeah. 776 00:28:30,755 --> 00:28:31,255 Yes. 777 00:28:31,715 --> 00:28:32,035 I, 778 00:28:32,929 --> 00:28:34,769 I'm very thankful for what I have, and 779 00:28:34,769 --> 00:28:37,190 I'm very mindful of what these 780 00:28:37,970 --> 00:28:38,789 human beings 781 00:28:40,184 --> 00:28:41,884 confront on a daily basis. 782 00:28:42,424 --> 00:28:43,964 And, that, therefore, 783 00:28:44,265 --> 00:28:46,505 I think society should not be so quick 784 00:28:46,505 --> 00:28:47,644 to judge these people. 785 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:50,950 Yeah. I agree with you. What does your 786 00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:52,329 family say about you 787 00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:53,529 venturing out? 788 00:28:57,565 --> 00:28:58,305 I think 789 00:28:58,845 --> 00:29:00,464 my daughter who 790 00:29:01,005 --> 00:29:01,904 she's 19 791 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,460 She I think she likes what dad does. 792 00:29:05,679 --> 00:29:07,539 Yeah. My wife is very supportive. 793 00:29:07,919 --> 00:29:10,924 My wife works in mental health. Oh. So 794 00:29:11,464 --> 00:29:11,964 we 795 00:29:12,424 --> 00:29:15,224 we talk in terms of her mental health 796 00:29:15,224 --> 00:29:17,085 understanding and the work I do. 797 00:29:18,609 --> 00:29:21,009 I I I and I think our our 798 00:29:21,009 --> 00:29:22,069 14 year old, 799 00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:24,529 he knows dad does this, but I don't 800 00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:26,289 think quite in that 14 year old mind, 801 00:29:26,289 --> 00:29:29,424 it's it's not it's not there yet as 802 00:29:29,424 --> 00:29:31,345 far as Yeah. Sure. What I'm trying to 803 00:29:31,345 --> 00:29:33,904 do. So I am supported. I mean, there's 804 00:29:33,904 --> 00:29:35,990 no question about that. My wife has been 805 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:37,350 very good about me. You know, I get 806 00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:39,190 up at 3 o'clock in the morning to 807 00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:40,890 be out on the streets by 4. 808 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:43,744 Wow. And I'll be gone on these when 809 00:29:43,744 --> 00:29:45,764 I go out to, to photograph. 810 00:29:46,065 --> 00:29:47,924 I'm gone for 6, 7 hours. 811 00:29:48,544 --> 00:29:50,065 I mean, this isn't a, you know, well, 812 00:29:50,065 --> 00:29:51,924 I'm down here for half an hour. No. 813 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:53,400 You 814 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:54,200 respect 815 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:55,799 the homelessness' 816 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:58,580 time. In a sense, when I'm on the 817 00:29:58,580 --> 00:29:59,080 streets, 818 00:29:59,674 --> 00:30:01,674 look at it a little differently. You're in 819 00:30:01,674 --> 00:30:02,414 their space. 820 00:30:02,795 --> 00:30:04,955 You are in their home. Yeah. If you 821 00:30:04,955 --> 00:30:06,015 want to do the encampments, 822 00:30:06,795 --> 00:30:09,649 you don't just barge in. I mean, you 823 00:30:09,649 --> 00:30:12,369 call it, you know, may I may I 824 00:30:12,369 --> 00:30:14,529 approach your property? May I approach where you're 825 00:30:14,529 --> 00:30:15,029 living? 826 00:30:16,210 --> 00:30:18,470 You you take your time. You're respectful. 827 00:30:19,835 --> 00:30:21,615 And I find that that pays off. 828 00:30:22,794 --> 00:30:24,815 Do you follow any of the other 829 00:30:25,434 --> 00:30:28,130 photographers who have been documenting the homeless like 830 00:30:28,289 --> 00:30:29,349 Suitcase Joe, 831 00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:32,769 Julia Dean in LA. She does a lot 832 00:30:32,769 --> 00:30:35,650 of work and, Yes. To a degree, I 833 00:30:35,650 --> 00:30:36,150 have. 834 00:30:36,554 --> 00:30:39,694 But I'm reminded of something that John Steinbeck 835 00:30:39,754 --> 00:30:41,294 said when he was asked, 836 00:30:41,835 --> 00:30:43,355 Does he keep an eye on what other 837 00:30:43,355 --> 00:30:44,335 writers are writing? 838 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,320 And his response was, no, I'm too busy 839 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,720 doing my own writing. And in a way, 840 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,940 Bob, I 841 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,944 am quite frankly, I'm focused on what I'm 842 00:30:53,944 --> 00:30:57,085 doing here. I'm aware of certain individuals. 843 00:30:57,544 --> 00:30:59,544 But do I follow in the sense of 844 00:30:59,544 --> 00:31:02,744 who's doing what? No, I don't. I'm aware, 845 00:31:02,744 --> 00:31:04,539 but I've got my own lane to stay 846 00:31:04,539 --> 00:31:05,039 in. 847 00:31:06,299 --> 00:31:06,799 So 848 00:31:07,259 --> 00:31:09,019 where are you going with all this work 849 00:31:09,019 --> 00:31:10,240 that you're you're producing? 850 00:31:11,015 --> 00:31:12,634 That's a damn good question. 851 00:31:13,494 --> 00:31:14,855 First of all, I never thought that I 852 00:31:14,855 --> 00:31:16,154 would be interviewed 853 00:31:17,174 --> 00:31:17,914 by you 854 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,259 and be published in this magazine. 855 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,659 That was one way of 856 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,019 presenting the topic of homelessness in America. 857 00:31:26,744 --> 00:31:28,765 But I have been working, 858 00:31:29,384 --> 00:31:29,884 collaborating 859 00:31:30,265 --> 00:31:31,085 with a 860 00:31:31,945 --> 00:31:33,244 philosophy professor 861 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,700 who works at Bates College in Lewiston, Maine. 862 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,500 And, this man's name is Paul Scofield, 863 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:40,700 and 864 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,460 he is 865 00:31:44,855 --> 00:31:46,715 thinking about doing a book. 866 00:31:47,255 --> 00:31:49,894 Mhmm. And, if he does, if this all 867 00:31:49,894 --> 00:31:50,795 comes to fruition, 868 00:31:52,380 --> 00:31:55,500 the plan is that my photographs or some 869 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:57,039 of them would appear 870 00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:58,720 in his book. 871 00:31:59,715 --> 00:32:02,134 The other to answer your question, I 872 00:32:02,434 --> 00:32:04,615 I kind of keep my eye on perhaps 873 00:32:04,994 --> 00:32:06,455 there might be a grant, 874 00:32:07,630 --> 00:32:09,630 that comes in the future. And if so, 875 00:32:09,630 --> 00:32:12,289 I can definitely avail myself to that. 876 00:32:12,990 --> 00:32:14,509 Yeah. I see why you're a fan of 877 00:32:14,509 --> 00:32:15,569 Dorothea Lange. 878 00:32:16,244 --> 00:32:18,805 Bingo. Boy, you put your finger right on 879 00:32:18,805 --> 00:32:20,724 it. Yeah. Yeah. I just finished reading a 880 00:32:20,724 --> 00:32:20,964 book, 881 00:32:21,525 --> 00:32:24,005 about her written by a historian named Linda 882 00:32:24,005 --> 00:32:24,505 Gordon. 883 00:32:25,910 --> 00:32:28,650 It is a very well done book. 884 00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:32,970 I am writing this down. 885 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:34,570 Nah. It's quite alright. 886 00:32:35,305 --> 00:32:37,384 I like our I would say we mentioned 887 00:32:37,384 --> 00:32:39,404 earlier, I like our sort of free flow 888 00:32:39,464 --> 00:32:39,964 conversational 889 00:32:40,424 --> 00:32:42,295 approach here. So yeah. 890 00:32:42,869 --> 00:32:43,829 I I think it's, 891 00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:46,390 I think it's more interesting to listen to 892 00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:47,049 as well. 893 00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:50,329 Well, wait till you get me really going. 894 00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:52,615 Oh, really? Okay. What does that take? 895 00:32:54,535 --> 00:32:56,775 Yeah. What'll really get me going is when 896 00:32:56,775 --> 00:32:58,615 I have homeless people telling me that other 897 00:32:58,615 --> 00:33:01,515 folks drive by at night, throw fruit, rocks, 898 00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:02,470 popcorn. 899 00:33:03,329 --> 00:33:03,829 Yes. 900 00:33:04,289 --> 00:33:04,789 And, 901 00:33:06,369 --> 00:33:08,450 I have words for those individuals, and I 902 00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:10,515 don't think you want them repeated here. 903 00:33:12,835 --> 00:33:14,454 Yeah. We won't. It's 904 00:33:14,755 --> 00:33:15,654 Less can. 905 00:33:16,035 --> 00:33:18,434 You can. No. No. No. Well, then I 906 00:33:18,434 --> 00:33:20,140 have to we have to check a little 907 00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:21,840 box Yeah. Yeah. With 908 00:33:22,299 --> 00:33:23,359 the I in Itunes. 909 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:26,619 Yeah. There you go. So so we keep 910 00:33:26,779 --> 00:33:28,994 we try to keep the use the clean 911 00:33:28,994 --> 00:33:30,295 box as much as possible. 912 00:33:30,914 --> 00:33:31,414 Bingo. 913 00:33:32,275 --> 00:33:32,775 Well 914 00:33:34,115 --> 00:33:35,815 well, I tell you. So what 915 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:38,390 what's next for you? What else are you 916 00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:40,070 are you working on anything else, or this 917 00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:41,210 is just all consuming? 918 00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:45,255 This is pretty much all consuming. 919 00:33:46,595 --> 00:33:48,055 I should also point out 920 00:33:48,755 --> 00:33:49,494 I don't 921 00:33:49,795 --> 00:33:50,295 photograph 922 00:33:51,159 --> 00:33:51,659 every 923 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:52,539 day. 924 00:33:52,919 --> 00:33:55,799 Yeah. I There are there are times when 925 00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:56,299 I 926 00:33:56,759 --> 00:33:57,819 I have to tell myself, 927 00:33:58,525 --> 00:33:59,404 You need to back off, John. 928 00:34:01,164 --> 00:34:02,545 You're getting too close. 929 00:34:04,444 --> 00:34:06,759 Mhmm. Sometimes, what I tell my wife is 930 00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:08,440 know, my my wife sees all of my 931 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:08,940 photos. 932 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,260 And I ask her what she thinks. 933 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:13,260 And she'll say, 934 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:16,125 these are really, really good, honey. You've done 935 00:34:16,125 --> 00:34:18,684 a really good job here. Mhmm. And I 936 00:34:18,684 --> 00:34:19,505 say, yes. 937 00:34:20,045 --> 00:34:20,704 A photographing 938 00:34:21,005 --> 00:34:21,505 misery 939 00:34:22,125 --> 00:34:24,305 and something that I shouldn't have to photograph 940 00:34:24,365 --> 00:34:26,449 in America in the first place. 941 00:34:27,150 --> 00:34:30,030 And that is that is those are my 942 00:34:30,030 --> 00:34:31,010 feelings. You can 943 00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:33,489 I come back from most assignments 944 00:34:34,305 --> 00:34:35,364 feeling conflicted? 945 00:34:37,744 --> 00:34:39,045 You can do good work. 946 00:34:39,425 --> 00:34:41,265 You can be complemented for that work just 947 00:34:41,265 --> 00:34:43,760 as you've done. Mhmm. But then I I'm 948 00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:46,300 I'm not I'm it never escapes me. And 949 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:47,820 I shouldn't have to be doing this in 950 00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:48,720 the first place. 951 00:34:49,099 --> 00:34:49,840 We need 952 00:34:50,619 --> 00:34:52,480 people should not be without housing 953 00:34:52,914 --> 00:34:55,494 in this country in the 21st century, 954 00:34:55,795 --> 00:34:58,034 and Baobai can take you into places here 955 00:34:58,034 --> 00:34:58,694 in Olympia 956 00:34:59,154 --> 00:35:01,414 where they're living like they're in 17th century. 957 00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:06,730 Wow. Starting a fire to stay warm in 958 00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:07,389 a tunnel 959 00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:09,574 is 17th century living 960 00:35:10,214 --> 00:35:12,074 or living under a building. 961 00:35:13,815 --> 00:35:14,315 Is 962 00:35:14,614 --> 00:35:16,375 is I mean, it's almost like living in 963 00:35:16,375 --> 00:35:17,034 a cave. 964 00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:19,980 We shouldn't have to be doing this. And 965 00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:21,260 yet, I go in there and do it. 966 00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:22,780 And I can have, you know like I 967 00:35:22,780 --> 00:35:25,099 say, it's like it comes back to this 968 00:35:25,099 --> 00:35:27,775 is not about me. This is about these 969 00:35:27,775 --> 00:35:28,275 individuals 970 00:35:28,734 --> 00:35:31,295 and how we need to get a grip 971 00:35:31,295 --> 00:35:32,914 on this growing epidemic 972 00:35:33,989 --> 00:35:35,450 of homelessness in America. 973 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:39,750 Wow. Is this something you can ever walk 974 00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:40,650 away from? 975 00:35:41,025 --> 00:35:41,525 Or 976 00:35:41,984 --> 00:35:42,484 maybe 977 00:35:42,784 --> 00:35:44,565 abandon is probably more of a 978 00:35:45,905 --> 00:35:47,744 I may there may come a day when 979 00:35:47,744 --> 00:35:48,484 I won't 980 00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:50,980 be doing this kind of work, but I 981 00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:53,079 don't think this work will ever leave me. 982 00:35:53,619 --> 00:35:54,119 Mhmm. 983 00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:57,364 I mean, it's it's kinda like being embedded 984 00:35:57,364 --> 00:35:59,304 in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yeah. 985 00:36:00,485 --> 00:36:02,565 You for a long time, I thought, well, 986 00:36:02,565 --> 00:36:03,844 I can cover the war and the war 987 00:36:03,844 --> 00:36:05,789 will have no effect on me. And I 988 00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:06,690 was wrong. 989 00:36:07,150 --> 00:36:10,289 It did and still does have an effect. 990 00:36:10,750 --> 00:36:13,170 I think the same can be said 991 00:36:13,914 --> 00:36:14,414 of 992 00:36:15,675 --> 00:36:16,175 documenting 993 00:36:17,195 --> 00:36:18,015 through photography 994 00:36:18,555 --> 00:36:20,015 the plight of the homelessness 995 00:36:20,715 --> 00:36:21,454 of the homeless. 996 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:24,800 Yeah. There's 997 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,079 there has to be other places to show 998 00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:30,400 this work. I mean, I'm happy we were 999 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,539 able to do it, 1000 00:36:32,625 --> 00:36:34,005 but, are you looking to do 1001 00:36:35,344 --> 00:36:37,605 a gallery exhibit or your own book? 1002 00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:41,660 I like the full the lot the former 1003 00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:44,460 idea, a gallery exhibit. I'm I I have 1004 00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:45,820 to admit that I'm not, 1005 00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:48,559 savvy in how all of that works. 1006 00:36:50,045 --> 00:36:50,545 I'm, 1007 00:36:51,965 --> 00:36:53,324 I was let me put it to you 1008 00:36:53,324 --> 00:36:55,984 this way. When I I mentioned, Paul Scofield 1009 00:36:56,125 --> 00:36:58,820 a moment ago. Mhmm. And he has a 1010 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:01,300 Twitter account. And he put just 9 of 1011 00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:03,079 my photographs on that account. 1012 00:37:05,034 --> 00:37:05,534 3,000,000 1013 00:37:05,994 --> 00:37:07,855 views later. Woah. 1014 00:37:08,394 --> 00:37:11,195 72 hours, and I thought, maybe somebody will 1015 00:37:11,195 --> 00:37:12,014 say, hey. 1016 00:37:12,420 --> 00:37:13,800 I have this gallery. 1017 00:37:14,179 --> 00:37:15,400 Could I talk with you? 1018 00:37:16,099 --> 00:37:18,820 Something like that. I haven't actively gone out 1019 00:37:18,820 --> 00:37:19,699 looking for 1020 00:37:20,019 --> 00:37:21,239 Mhmm. The gallery. 1021 00:37:21,885 --> 00:37:24,045 I've been, like I said earlier to you 1022 00:37:24,045 --> 00:37:25,425 before we went on air, 1023 00:37:25,965 --> 00:37:29,265 I've been kidded about having zero social media 1024 00:37:30,030 --> 00:37:30,530 presence. 1025 00:37:31,150 --> 00:37:33,010 And that and there's a reason for that. 1026 00:37:33,469 --> 00:37:35,889 This isn't for me. Yeah. 1027 00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:37,809 Yeah. And all that. 1028 00:37:38,635 --> 00:37:41,054 So I I I like I said, 1029 00:37:41,514 --> 00:37:43,594 I'll it'll come to me. I'll just let 1030 00:37:43,594 --> 00:37:45,914 it roll along. I have right now, my 1031 00:37:45,914 --> 00:37:46,414 my 1032 00:37:46,954 --> 00:37:47,454 my 1033 00:37:47,769 --> 00:37:49,930 plan is, well, tomorrow morning, I'll be in 1034 00:37:49,930 --> 00:37:50,910 downtown Olympia 1035 00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:54,329 letting the photograph come to me. And I'll 1036 00:37:54,329 --> 00:37:56,570 just keep doing this work. I'll keep working 1037 00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:57,470 with different 1038 00:37:58,074 --> 00:38:00,014 agencies or papers or 1039 00:38:00,315 --> 00:38:01,775 perhaps even a gallery. 1040 00:38:02,554 --> 00:38:04,494 We'll just take it as it comes. 1041 00:38:05,730 --> 00:38:07,590 Yeah. Wouldn't hurt if you had a website. 1042 00:38:09,970 --> 00:38:10,470 Understood. 1043 00:38:11,090 --> 00:38:12,869 I hear it loud. Heard that before. 1044 00:38:13,570 --> 00:38:14,594 Yes. I have. 1045 00:38:15,074 --> 00:38:15,574 Well, 1046 00:38:17,474 --> 00:38:19,635 sorry. You probably see me. I keep looking 1047 00:38:19,635 --> 00:38:21,574 away because there's a book on my shelf 1048 00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:22,349 that I'm 1049 00:38:22,809 --> 00:38:24,910 I'm probably gonna grab here before we're done. 1050 00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:27,470 But 1051 00:38:28,864 --> 00:38:30,085 if you use Adobe 1052 00:38:31,664 --> 00:38:34,065 No. I will not use Adobe here. You 1053 00:38:34,065 --> 00:38:36,304 get me going again, Bob. Okay. Well, alright. 1054 00:38:36,304 --> 00:38:37,045 I don't wanna. 1055 00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:39,299 Say well, they when you have an Adobe 1056 00:38:39,299 --> 00:38:41,779 account, you can they have a portfolio built 1057 00:38:41,779 --> 00:38:43,460 in, and it's easy easy to set up 1058 00:38:43,460 --> 00:38:46,474 a portfolio. But okay. Something about subscription? 1059 00:38:47,015 --> 00:38:47,515 No. 1060 00:38:48,055 --> 00:38:48,555 I 1061 00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:51,414 I prefer to own my own tools. Yeah. 1062 00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:53,755 I understand that. Yeah. Yeah. 1063 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,539 Same applies to Lightroom. 1064 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,219 Yeah. It's it's Adobe. It's it's a subscription. 1065 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:00,400 Nope. I, 1066 00:39:01,494 --> 00:39:03,014 I go a different way. I if you 1067 00:39:03,014 --> 00:39:05,014 if you had asked me during this interview 1068 00:39:05,014 --> 00:39:06,855 if I had to describe myself in one 1069 00:39:06,855 --> 00:39:08,474 word, that word would be outlier. 1070 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,860 Definitely an outlier. Yeah. That's alright. That's alright. 1071 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:15,059 Yeah. 1072 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,119 So what are you what are you editing 1073 00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:17,619 with? 1074 00:39:18,715 --> 00:39:19,454 I use, 1075 00:39:19,994 --> 00:39:21,454 Topaz Studio 2 1076 00:39:21,994 --> 00:39:23,934 and Nike FX Silver. 1077 00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:28,130 Yeah. Silver effects. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. 1078 00:39:28,130 --> 00:39:30,210 That is that is a very good, 1079 00:39:30,769 --> 00:39:34,389 Yeah. It is. I really appreciate that. Yeah. 1080 00:39:35,484 --> 00:39:38,444 Yeah. It's, it's quite a product. I've I've 1081 00:39:38,444 --> 00:39:39,904 had it off and on 1082 00:39:40,444 --> 00:39:42,924 since before Google bought it and let it 1083 00:39:42,924 --> 00:39:43,424 go. 1084 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:44,500 Yeah. 1085 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:47,219 We're not using it right now. 1086 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,559 Okay. I'm back now. I I just had 1087 00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:51,280 to get this, 1088 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,804 this book because I wanted to put in 1089 00:39:53,804 --> 00:39:54,784 my hand here. 1090 00:39:55,164 --> 00:39:55,905 And it's 1091 00:39:57,164 --> 00:39:58,844 a book called homeless in the land of 1092 00:39:58,844 --> 00:40:01,264 plenty by Mark Schuman, which you, 1093 00:40:01,644 --> 00:40:03,105 I talked to him about this 1094 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:04,289 on the show, 1095 00:40:04,670 --> 00:40:05,809 earlier this year. 1096 00:40:06,670 --> 00:40:07,170 And, 1097 00:40:08,510 --> 00:40:10,289 Mark traveled around the country 1098 00:40:11,045 --> 00:40:12,505 doing something similar to 1099 00:40:13,045 --> 00:40:13,944 what you're doing. 1100 00:40:14,405 --> 00:40:16,005 And the reason I I I brought him 1101 00:40:16,005 --> 00:40:16,824 up I 1102 00:40:17,605 --> 00:40:19,444 I know you're you're busy doing your own 1103 00:40:19,444 --> 00:40:20,550 work, so I I 1104 00:40:21,269 --> 00:40:22,809 that's a valid point, but 1105 00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:26,230 it, it's worth checking out his work as 1106 00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:26,730 well. 1107 00:40:27,644 --> 00:40:28,085 But, 1108 00:40:28,525 --> 00:40:30,444 a few weeks ago, I was contacted by 1109 00:40:30,444 --> 00:40:31,105 a musician, 1110 00:40:32,204 --> 00:40:34,065 and I'm sorry I forget his name. 1111 00:40:34,684 --> 00:40:35,505 He wrote 1112 00:40:36,389 --> 00:40:38,070 a song about the homeless, and you could 1113 00:40:38,070 --> 00:40:40,250 tell he very he was very deeply about 1114 00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:41,050 their situation. 1115 00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:43,050 And 1116 00:40:45,585 --> 00:40:47,425 and, you know, he sent me the song, 1117 00:40:47,425 --> 00:40:48,785 and I listened to it. I go, wow. 1118 00:40:48,785 --> 00:40:51,184 And and, I was just really good. The 1119 00:40:51,184 --> 00:40:52,980 guy is very good. Very good musician, 1120 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:53,780 songwriter. 1121 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,179 And, I 1122 00:40:56,639 --> 00:40:58,800 I think he was interested in finding some 1123 00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,300 photographs. 1124 00:41:00,074 --> 00:41:02,655 And I so I connected him with Mark, 1125 00:41:03,114 --> 00:41:04,175 and I think 1126 00:41:06,474 --> 00:41:08,474 he's gonna make a video with a song 1127 00:41:08,474 --> 00:41:10,849 in the background, and he's gonna use some 1128 00:41:10,849 --> 00:41:12,510 of Mark's photos. And, 1129 00:41:15,449 --> 00:41:16,190 if you're 1130 00:41:16,570 --> 00:41:18,730 interested, I may introduce him to you as 1131 00:41:18,730 --> 00:41:19,230 well. 1132 00:41:20,155 --> 00:41:21,614 I would very much 1133 00:41:22,394 --> 00:41:23,135 like that. 1134 00:41:23,515 --> 00:41:26,315 And by the way, everything you've mentioned starting 1135 00:41:26,315 --> 00:41:27,295 with the hustler, 1136 00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:29,000 I've written down 1137 00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:29,880 names, 1138 00:41:30,420 --> 00:41:31,240 book titles 1139 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:33,619 because I will research every single one of 1140 00:41:33,619 --> 00:41:34,440 them. Alright. 1141 00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:36,500 I read. This is how I learn. And, 1142 00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,525 yes, I would very much like the opportunity 1143 00:41:39,825 --> 00:41:41,125 to work with that musician. 1144 00:41:42,144 --> 00:41:44,005 Oh, very good. Alright. I'll 1145 00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:47,429 I'll contact them this afternoon after after we 1146 00:41:47,429 --> 00:41:48,489 get off. I I 1147 00:41:49,590 --> 00:41:51,190 I was gonna do it earlier, but I 1148 00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:52,489 wanted to talk to you first. 1149 00:41:53,074 --> 00:41:54,835 Well, you also have my permission if you 1150 00:41:54,835 --> 00:41:57,014 wanna forward some of those images I've sent. 1151 00:41:57,074 --> 00:41:57,734 Oh, really? 1152 00:41:58,195 --> 00:41:59,094 And my, 1153 00:41:59,635 --> 00:41:59,954 my, 1154 00:42:00,434 --> 00:42:03,130 email address, and Okay. Very much would like 1155 00:42:03,130 --> 00:42:04,670 that. Alright. Alright. 1156 00:42:05,050 --> 00:42:06,650 Thank you. That sounds good. Yeah. It was 1157 00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:07,869 your work, so I don't 1158 00:42:08,409 --> 00:42:10,409 you know? We've got no say so over 1159 00:42:10,409 --> 00:42:12,894 anybody anybody's work because it's theirs. 1160 00:42:13,515 --> 00:42:15,115 Nope. That's why I thought I'd say something. 1161 00:42:15,115 --> 00:42:17,115 I you have my permission to use as 1162 00:42:17,115 --> 00:42:18,095 you see fit. 1163 00:42:18,795 --> 00:42:20,575 Oh, thank you. Thank you. 1164 00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:22,329 So, 1165 00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:24,950 one other thing I I forgot to ask 1166 00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:26,710 earlier. So before we wrap it up, just 1167 00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:28,070 gonna ask. Okay. You were in the Air 1168 00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:28,570 Force. 1169 00:42:28,944 --> 00:42:30,545 Mhmm. What'd you do in the Air Force? 1170 00:42:30,545 --> 00:42:32,784 You you said you flew cargo planes? Yeah. 1171 00:42:33,025 --> 00:42:34,545 For the first couple of years, I was 1172 00:42:34,545 --> 00:42:36,545 enlisted as a load master on the c 1173 00:42:36,545 --> 00:42:37,045 141 1174 00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:38,579 b Starlifter. 1175 00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:41,220 I earned a direct commission. 1176 00:42:41,599 --> 00:42:42,079 I was, 1177 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,579 from that point on, I was a logistics 1178 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:45,220 officer, 1179 00:42:45,925 --> 00:42:47,525 for a little while with the air force 1180 00:42:47,525 --> 00:42:49,224 and a lot of time with the army. 1181 00:42:49,605 --> 00:42:53,125 And, it was a very interesting career as 1182 00:42:53,125 --> 00:42:54,184 an air force officer 1183 00:42:54,789 --> 00:42:56,170 working with the army. 1184 00:42:56,549 --> 00:42:57,909 I think I think of it as one 1185 00:42:57,909 --> 00:42:59,909 of the high points of my life. Yeah. 1186 00:42:59,909 --> 00:43:01,049 That's really something. 1187 00:43:01,644 --> 00:43:03,244 Well, I gotta say thank you for your 1188 00:43:03,244 --> 00:43:03,744 service. 1189 00:43:04,525 --> 00:43:06,844 You're welcome. America is worth it. And and 1190 00:43:06,844 --> 00:43:08,224 thank you for what you're doing 1191 00:43:09,299 --> 00:43:11,139 to help. Thank you for what you do. 1192 00:43:11,139 --> 00:43:12,500 I mean, I you, 1193 00:43:13,139 --> 00:43:14,839 before I subscribed 1194 00:43:15,219 --> 00:43:16,920 to Street Photography Magazine, 1195 00:43:17,605 --> 00:43:18,425 I did a search. 1196 00:43:19,285 --> 00:43:21,605 And, what drew me to you besides the 1197 00:43:21,605 --> 00:43:23,844 format and how the magazine was presented in 1198 00:43:23,844 --> 00:43:24,664 these podcasts 1199 00:43:25,849 --> 00:43:26,489 is that, 1200 00:43:27,210 --> 00:43:30,250 you probably know this, but this magazine is 1201 00:43:30,250 --> 00:43:31,869 very highly rated 1202 00:43:32,704 --> 00:43:33,605 in this country. 1203 00:43:33,905 --> 00:43:36,144 And I thought that's a magazine that I 1204 00:43:36,144 --> 00:43:38,565 wanna be associated with. So thank you. 1205 00:43:39,025 --> 00:43:40,545 Well, thanks. I, 1206 00:43:42,010 --> 00:43:43,550 I love the compliment. 1207 00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:45,610 Yeah. You notice we don't, 1208 00:43:46,329 --> 00:43:47,470 we don't sell advertising, 1209 00:43:48,784 --> 00:43:50,784 so we're not beholden to anybody but our 1210 00:43:50,784 --> 00:43:51,284 subscribers. 1211 00:43:52,144 --> 00:43:52,465 I, 1212 00:43:53,264 --> 00:43:55,605 I I like that. I think you're doing 1213 00:43:55,824 --> 00:43:58,260 doing damn good work. Yeah. And 1214 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,800 then doing the advertising thing is the easy 1215 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,300 way. 1216 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,139 Yeah. I I agree. 1217 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,099 I agree. 1218 00:44:05,094 --> 00:44:07,175 Yeah. Yeah. This is tough, but it's a 1219 00:44:07,175 --> 00:44:07,994 labor of love. 1220 00:44:09,015 --> 00:44:10,875 And On both ends. Yes. 1221 00:44:11,255 --> 00:44:13,594 Yeah. Good. Good. Well, thank you very much. 1222 00:44:14,089 --> 00:44:15,849 Alright. So, I know you don't have a 1223 00:44:15,849 --> 00:44:16,349 website. 1224 00:44:16,809 --> 00:44:17,309 And, 1225 00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:20,250 do you have a social media presence you 1226 00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:21,389 can share with everybody 1227 00:44:21,769 --> 00:44:24,414 for your stuff? What I can. I am 1228 00:44:26,315 --> 00:44:27,855 there is a an organization, 1229 00:44:28,155 --> 00:44:28,655 Social 1230 00:44:29,114 --> 00:44:31,535 Documentary Network. Oh, yeah. SDN. Sure. 1231 00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:34,680 And if you go to the search box, 1232 00:44:34,820 --> 00:44:36,920 and you type in John Simpson, 1233 00:44:37,619 --> 00:44:39,160 I have 4 exhibits hanging. 1234 00:44:39,619 --> 00:44:41,474 And the last one, 1235 00:44:42,094 --> 00:44:44,255 which I I think I posted about a 1236 00:44:44,255 --> 00:44:44,914 week ago, 1237 00:44:45,775 --> 00:44:47,394 are the images from the jungle. 1238 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,079 Okay. So and then then there's another one. 1239 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:52,079 There are other images of the homeless. So, 1240 00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:52,400 yes, 1241 00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:54,800 people wanna take a look at some of 1242 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,500 my work, but that's where I do, 1243 00:44:57,905 --> 00:44:59,045 put my work 1244 00:44:59,585 --> 00:45:01,824 because I think there, it could make a 1245 00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:02,324 difference. 1246 00:45:03,344 --> 00:45:06,190 I like SDR. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. 1247 00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:08,170 Me too. And, 1248 00:45:09,289 --> 00:45:10,430 several of the people 1249 00:45:10,969 --> 00:45:12,190 we've had in the magazine, 1250 00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:14,315 I've gotten to know personally, have 1251 00:45:14,795 --> 00:45:17,434 published work through them. Yeah. And, 1252 00:45:17,755 --> 00:45:20,315 Yeah. They're they're they're quite good. Yeah. I 1253 00:45:20,315 --> 00:45:22,155 did see your stuff in there. I'll just 1254 00:45:22,315 --> 00:45:23,694 we'll just link to that. 1255 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,559 I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. And then 1256 00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:27,300 any place 1257 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,659 between now and when we publish your 1258 00:45:31,335 --> 00:45:32,234 your story, 1259 00:45:33,815 --> 00:45:34,375 then we'll, 1260 00:45:35,414 --> 00:45:37,994 There is there's a small newspaper. 1261 00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,949 It's a daily online newspaper. I'm wearing a 1262 00:45:41,949 --> 00:45:43,969 hat. It's called the J. O. L. T. 1263 00:45:44,429 --> 00:45:46,258 I saw that too. Yeah. The J. O. 1264 00:45:46,258 --> 00:45:48,065 L. T. Stands for Journal of Olympia 1265 00:45:48,445 --> 00:45:49,505 Lacey Tumwater. 1266 00:45:50,684 --> 00:45:51,985 It's the J. O. L. T. News.com. 1267 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,519 Some of the articles I've written about the 1268 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:00,760 homeless, and there'll be a photo or 2 1269 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:01,260 accompanying, 1270 00:46:02,119 --> 00:46:03,659 appear in that publication. 1271 00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:05,805 I consider myself a contributor. 1272 00:46:06,425 --> 00:46:09,065 Bowling to those as well. I appreciate that. 1273 00:46:09,065 --> 00:46:09,724 Thank you. 1274 00:46:10,265 --> 00:46:11,965 Very good. Very good. 1275 00:46:12,659 --> 00:46:13,319 Well, John, 1276 00:46:14,179 --> 00:46:15,079 thanks again. 1277 00:46:15,699 --> 00:46:18,019 You're welcome. I really appreciate it. It's a 1278 00:46:18,019 --> 00:46:19,719 lot of fun speaking with you, 1279 00:46:21,234 --> 00:46:21,734 and 1280 00:46:22,434 --> 00:46:23,894 I hope to do it again soon. 1281 00:46:24,914 --> 00:46:28,514 I appreciate everything you've done today for me, 1282 00:46:28,514 --> 00:46:29,494 for this opportunity. 1283 00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:32,900 And, yeah, I've actually started to roll around 1284 00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:34,500 a third idea for a, 1285 00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:36,920 or an article at some point 1286 00:46:37,219 --> 00:46:39,239 for Street Photography Magazine. 1287 00:46:40,825 --> 00:46:43,305 Your thoughts about the show go a long 1288 00:46:43,305 --> 00:46:45,545 way in helping us decide on the guests 1289 00:46:45,545 --> 00:46:47,545 and the subjects that we include in each 1290 00:46:47,545 --> 00:46:48,045 episode. 1291 00:46:48,859 --> 00:46:51,260 So please take a few moments to write 1292 00:46:51,260 --> 00:46:51,839 a review 1293 00:46:52,139 --> 00:46:53,280 in Apple Podcasts, 1294 00:46:53,980 --> 00:46:56,300 or whatever service you use to stream your 1295 00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:56,800 podcasts. 1296 00:46:57,514 --> 00:46:59,114 It helps us know if we're on the 1297 00:46:59,114 --> 00:47:01,514 right track, and it helps others to find 1298 00:47:01,514 --> 00:47:02,734 and enjoy the show. 1299 00:47:03,194 --> 00:47:06,234 The editor of Street Photography Magazine is Ashley 1300 00:47:06,234 --> 00:47:06,734 Riefo, 1301 00:47:07,179 --> 00:47:10,140 and our audio engineer is Russell Boyd from 1302 00:47:10,140 --> 00:47:12,719 Weebit Studios found at weebitstudios.co.uk. 1303 00:47:15,954 --> 00:47:18,114 I'm Bob Patterson, and this is the Street 1304 00:47:18,114 --> 00:47:19,974 Photography Magazine podcast, 1305 00:47:20,434 --> 00:47:21,094 a service 1306 00:47:21,474 --> 00:47:23,175 of Street Photography Magazine.