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dot com forward slash

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test.

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This is Chanel Bun with the Becker Health

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care podcast, and I'm recording the live at

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the 20 first annual spine orthopedic and pain

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management driven As.

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Plus the future of Spine Conference. Right now,

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I'm sitting down with, Jonathan Davis, the Ceo

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of Clear Pain solutions,

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Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me

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today? Oh, thanks for having me. Perfect. Well,

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to get us started, could you please tell

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us a bit about your background and organization?

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Yeah. So as you said, I'm the Coo

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for Clear pain solutions. I've been there for

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approximately 2 years that they might... Your anniversary

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hitting in next week or 2. But

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before that, I had spent 10 years in

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operations for Da vita and dialysis

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before thousand business school in Chicago and before

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that doing financial services. So a little bit

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about my background,

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Clear pain solutions. So

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we are currently probably the largest

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individual pain management practice in the country. We

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are currently in about 6 states from new

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New Jersey,

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Ban, Delaware, Maryland, Florida, Alabama today.

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Plans to expand 2 new states by the

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end of the year. We have Ban probably

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roughly a hundred unique locations between As c's,

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offices and lab.

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And I think total we have today, maybe

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65

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positions in total hundred and 35

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total providers. So pretty large and and growing

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Got it. Thank you so much for that

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introduction. Now moving forward. In recent years, there's

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been a more... Or an increased

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awareness of people's health and wellness,

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probably due to more social media, the Internet.

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In light of that,

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people are seeking out professional opinions less and

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less. Why do you think that is? Yeah.

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Your great question. I think you hit on

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it. Social media, I think.

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Over the years what we've seen is just

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incredible access information, which has been phenomenal in

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a lot of areas, but also problematic in

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some, health care being 1 of them

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You know, first, you think about Web d,

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what that did for everyone. It became the

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resource everyone went to if they had an

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ache or pain or any kind of issue.

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And people were diagnosing themselves myself included.

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And then now you see social media where

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it's a great place

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or information sharing, but also for bad information

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sharing.

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And I think that's just giving people empower

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people to make their own decisions, but also

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kinda make their own sometimes bad decisions. And

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then when we compare that to the health

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care industry, what it is and, you know,

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kinda where it is today is, you know,

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a lot of patients are finding the elect

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trust and it because they don't see their

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physician very often. Right? You know, mid level

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have kind of entered the... We're seeing a

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mid level more so than irrational physician.

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You also see those appointment times becoming smaller

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and smaller, you know, where they're spending 5

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minutes with their physician where they used to

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maybe spend 30 minutes with their physician. And

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then,

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a lot of the feedback on studies and

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research you see. It's about that. It's also

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about they don't feel listen to. They don't

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feel heard. And the neighbor does listen to

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them and hear them in social media have

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access to information that snap of a finger.

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So I think you see this, you know,

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a little bit of a dichotomy here where

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people are really struggling with that and deciding

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what to do because they... They're in pain.

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They wanna answer, they want it fast, and

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they don't wanna have wait 4 weeks to

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see someone.

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That's gonna spend 5 minutes with them and

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not listen to them. So I think we

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see that. Number 1.

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A lot of studies also show that they

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might source... Trust their physician, but they don't

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trust the health care system. Right?

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They don't trust the bill. They see the

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bills coming in. Health care is expensive for

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some people,

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depending on what they're doing, it could be,

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you know, recurring fees that they don't understand.

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They they'll... It make some question things. So

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I think when you put that all together,

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people understand they need it and understand they

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need to go see a physician, but they're

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still questioning a lot of it today.

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Absolutely. And kinda switching gears a bit. From

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an organizational standpoint, do you have any strategies

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in place aimed at helping bring in patients

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or to help improve retention? Yeah.

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Yes. We talk about this very often. It's

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definitely

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becoming a competitive landscape and always a challenge

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to get new patients and and a couple

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things we've done,

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you know, 1 of thing think it starts

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with service, You know, we can wanna talk

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a little bit about trust in a moment.

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But for me, I think as 1 industry

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that probably does the worst at customer services

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health care. I'm a consumer of health care,

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your a consumer.

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We affect members that consume and go see

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a physician, quite often and, you know, the

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complaints kinda stack up call center complaints, scheduling

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complaints,

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family build complaints. It's just... It seems like

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we do a very bad job of delight

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and and just really servicing the patient at

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the end of day. When it comes all

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the back office of stuff, the experience side.

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So we spent a lot of time last

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2 years. We started with our call center,

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seems simple, But when I started 2 years

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ago, I believe our... Answer rate took 10

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minutes to get someone on the call to

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reschedule appointment a reschedule appointment. I think we're

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abandoning 30 percent of our phone call. So

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they had to keep calling back in and

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That's where we started. We hired up. We

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redesigned the entire system, and we got to

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where we wanted that call to be answered

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within 30 seconds or less. And today, I

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think we on average answer to call within

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5 seconds. So immediately someone picks up. You

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know, we don't abandon phone calls is that's

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less than 2 percent. That's usually when the

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patient hangs up because they... Dial wrong number

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or whatnot. And so that's where we started,

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and we also

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reinvest a lot in the train, make sure

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our our reps. When they answer the call,

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they knew how to service the patient instead

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of putting them on hold and these calls

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lasting 20 minutes. So we spent a lot

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of time on that. I think that's the

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first point in contact for a lot of

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our new patients in a lot of our

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referral partners,

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second, we actually spent a lot of time

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with the referral partners, surveying them, asking them

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how we could be better

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servicing them, and we found 2 basic... Things,

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medical records, they wanted access through them. When

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they called, they wanted them immediately, and they

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didn't like us charging for them, so we

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cut up charging,

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and we also created where we didn't have

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to go through so many hoops to give

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them the records they need to care for

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the patient when they're seeing them. And then

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secondly, feedback,

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they would send a patient to us and

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they would never hear anything. Unless the patient

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showed up next month and in their own

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office and they had a conversation. So we

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tried to...

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Create a system we're actually building it now

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where it's

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gonna automate feedback the referral source. So it

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tells them that we contacted the patient. Tells

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them when we schedule them,

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also tells them when we cannot reach the

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patient, or the patient declined our service, so

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they can actually address that on the back

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end. So we're trying to create, more feedback

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in the loop and transparency that way, not

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only your patients are experiencing

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us in a meaningful powerful positive way, but

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also our referral partner. So is helping bring

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a new patients. We've seen drastic increase in

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new patient volumes. It's doing a lot of

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that.

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And then marketing sales. I'll talk about what

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the third thing and

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know, we can move something else, but marketing

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sales, I

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I think the way we look at marketing

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the sales and help here is very outdated.

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Know, we we go doctor to the doctor,

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We go to a law firm. But a

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reality of the day because of that trust

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factor. That we talked about earlier. You and

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just all the information, you know, direct consumers

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are getting themselves, we're really pushing for direct

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consumer marketing and sales.

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Simplifying that message.

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You know, you've probably seen some of the

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pain management websites and mine included, it's jargon.

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It's confusing. And it's not simple for.

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Really, anyone who doesn't understand this specialty to

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really understand. So we're trying to really simplify

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the message, deliver some videos that have animation

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and really try to reach patients that might

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be referred to also that might not know

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pain and know what we can do to

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really understand us and kind of combat some

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of the false information they might see out

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there as well.

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Got it. And you've kinda given us some

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pointers on how to improve patient retention, but

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can you tell us why retention is so

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important?

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Yeah. Because care care is ongoing. You know,

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my background in dialysis before this at Da,

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obviously, you know, slightly very different

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specialty, but we had to constantly see the

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patient over again because it's always day to

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day a living chronic disease that needed ongoing

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treatment.

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And our patients are complex, you know, pain

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patients, you know, they have some mental health

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issues potentially anxiety,

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you know, they have other issues, you know,

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and need more care beyond what we do

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in 1 sitting once time. And so what

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we try to communicate the patients is that,

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yeah, you're gonna come to us, but it's

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probably not gonna be 1 injection is gonna

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solve all your problems and you're gonna time

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go run that marathon that you wanna run

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for next 10:20 years. It's gonna be an

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ongoing conversation,

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and we need that feedback from you and

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we need to be able to kinda of

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bring to the table

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treatments and options to make sure you can

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live the life you wanna live. So retention

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is not just important for us as a

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as a business as a organization, but really

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it's most important for the patients to keep

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coming back, know, that way, we can really

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see how they're doing over time. Pain is

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1 of the

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more difficult

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treatments or really track clinical outcomes because it's

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really is something they deal. Right? It's, you

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know, pain scores and they, you know, might

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be a 10 out of 10 today. There

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might be a 2 out of 10 tomorrow.

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And so it's always moving shifting and, feel

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events like a fall or a bump can

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really impact it. And so we really need

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to keep checking in and seeing them for

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their own sake, make sure they can continue

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live life. They wanna lift.

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Absolutely. And you've already kind of touched on

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the customer service aspect of health care and

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how it affects the patient. But can you

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tell me what... How that affects the staff?

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Yeah. III yeah. Saw this question. I thought

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it was a very interesting 1 in very.

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But earth thoughtful 1 because it it does.

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You know, we could talk about Covid and

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impact since Covid on staff, but really with

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the trust factor the earth person who experienced

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it the most is person who's on the

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other end of of the call, on on

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the call center front desk person,

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m may, they really get the brunt of

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the frustration out of the doubt.

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You know, we see it with billing. We've

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had a very tough time having thoughtful and

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meaningful conversations about collecting c and different bills

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over the last... Couple years where we used

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to not have so much difficult because they

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question everything, which rightfully so.

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And so we've had it really...

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Think about the experience for a front desk,

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the medical assistants and a lot of the

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frontline staff that have to deal with those

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questions in that frustration from patients at time.

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In a lot of it comes, I didn't

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mention earlier, but what we also see in

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pain

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is that people come to us with a

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little bit of bias based on the past

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care they received or have not received. You

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know, they might have seen a primary care

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who mistreated the pain before or gave us

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some bad bad guidance. That just doesn't didn't

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understand the specialty and what we can do

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and A lot of times our front desk

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have to deal with that too and where

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they questioned them and questioned what we're doing

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and it and really be a a really

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high tense environment at times. And we've seen

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an impact our turnover. We've seen an impact

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our hiring and, you know, me personally and

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something we're looking at Clear today. We don't

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have it, you know, you know, like, many

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of us completely solve or figured it out.

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But we are thinking about throwing out the

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playbook and redesign it because it seems the

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way we approach staffing, hiring, training, rewarding, promoting

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all this stuff. Really is outdated based on

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a current consumer of health and what they

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expect out of us. And so we're going

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through a process right now really reevaluate that

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and thinking outside of the box now, we

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can do that to support our staff to

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ultimately support a patient.

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Absolutely. And when thinking about rebuilding this relationship,

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where do you think the industry as a

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whole should start?

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00:11:20,379 --> 00:11:21,175
Yeah. Great question.

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No know, we talked about patient experience a

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lot

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in this podcast, and we've also talked about,

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know, staffing. I think those are 2 main

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things. So what I would... What I've been

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thinking about lately in this and what we've

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been saying as an organization is we as

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an industry have gotten where it's been very

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heavy provider first.

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It and it's very important. Providers are very

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important.

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But a lot of the back office systems

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are designed as support provider, not always the

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patient.

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And what I mean by that, you know,

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we usually assign procedure scheduling into a doctor.

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We signed call center to a doctor and

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made to a doctor, and everything's built, the

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ecosystems built around the physician. And not the

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patient always.

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And so

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what we're trying to do today is really...

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In what I would challenge the to do

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is reevaluate that work flow to focus on

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the patient journey to patient experience

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from start to finish and really build tools

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and that, you know, monitor that,

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get feedback from the patient and ultimately make

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changes to benefit the patient long. That's why

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we're here. And I think too often we

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we prioritize to focus so much on the

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provider experience or schedule this and that and

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the other, and it's is vital that we

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do that. But I think times a patient

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gets lost that journey. You know, I'll share

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1 personal experience.

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My wife recently,

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you know, she has a rare genetics disorder,

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and she had had eye surgery. And, you

378
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know, first position we saw Wouldn't touch her

379
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because the genetics order, she wasn't comfortable,

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So we got a referral to a gentleman

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in Houston texas actually, and he was phenomenal.

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Expert made us feel comfortable.

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But from that hand to his scheduler to

384
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his team, was very bumpy for us. You

385
00:12:57,459 --> 00:12:59,214
know, they wouldn't return our phone calls. They

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took 4 weeks to call us, so we'd

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00:13:00,649 --> 00:13:01,686
call, they wouldn't call us back.

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When they did call us they had wrong

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00:13:03,940 --> 00:13:04,899
information and so we had to go back

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00:13:04,899 --> 00:13:06,660
to position. It was just very, very bad

391
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:09,220
experience. And I note to the organization that

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had made sense and worked for him in

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00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:12,270
his system and this schedule and he never

394
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felt that impact that negatively, but we did.

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And to a point where we almost decided

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to start shopping around for another provider, but

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schedule luckily we stayed with it. She had

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surgeries. She she just had her second 1

399
00:13:22,006 --> 00:13:24,004
last week, and she's doing well, but it...

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00:13:24,164 --> 00:13:25,922
That journey was for us, even seen it

401
00:13:25,922 --> 00:13:28,100
to my wife's eyes. Very, very

402
00:13:28,492 --> 00:13:29,923
anxious. She was very nervous, and it was

403
00:13:29,923 --> 00:13:32,627
just very... It was unnecessary for the patient.

404
00:13:32,786 --> 00:13:34,615
So just 1 example I think we really

405
00:13:34,615 --> 00:13:36,774
need to focus on this coming here. Absolutely.

406
00:13:36,933 --> 00:13:39,389
It's amazing how something as simple as answering

407
00:13:39,389 --> 00:13:41,053
a phone call Or returning a phone call

408
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can make such a huge difference. Completely completely.

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00:13:43,923 --> 00:13:45,280
Jonathan, I wanna thank you for your time

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00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,558
today. But before I let you go, is

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00:13:46,558 --> 00:13:48,793
there anything else that listeners Chanel? Oh, I

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00:13:48,793 --> 00:13:49,990
think we I think we covered it, but

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00:13:50,309 --> 00:13:51,506
you know, what, I I guess,

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The only thing I will say is, you

415
00:13:53,677 --> 00:13:55,832
know, I think, you know, this topic is

416
00:13:55,832 --> 00:13:57,349
1, I do think we need to talk

417
00:13:57,349 --> 00:13:59,584
more about. I'm an operator, not a clinician.

418
00:13:59,823 --> 00:14:01,101
I see patients at the end of the

419
00:14:01,101 --> 00:14:02,788
day, but still see patients at the end

420
00:14:02,788 --> 00:14:04,059
of day. Right. I see their experience and

421
00:14:04,139 --> 00:14:05,331
I I get the complaints I get the

422
00:14:05,331 --> 00:14:06,682
stuff, and I see it through the eyes

423
00:14:06,682 --> 00:14:08,192
of my staff. Sometimes I a deal with

424
00:14:08,192 --> 00:14:08,748
those issues.

425
00:14:09,479 --> 00:14:11,307
And I feel, you know, we're so eager

426
00:14:11,307 --> 00:14:13,532
to talk about Ai and clinical decision making

427
00:14:13,532 --> 00:14:15,360
tools and stuff which are phenomenal and are

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00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,893
needed in our industry. And

429
00:14:17,521 --> 00:14:19,746
III do hope that, you know, we talk

430
00:14:19,746 --> 00:14:21,574
more about this topic going forward who's is

431
00:14:21,574 --> 00:14:23,799
super vital for an administration in industry and

432
00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:26,000
and also for our patients. So

433
00:14:26,439 --> 00:14:28,517
Absolutely. Well, Jonathan, I wanna thank you once

434
00:14:28,517 --> 00:14:29,875
again for your time today for joining me

435
00:14:29,875 --> 00:14:31,793
on Becker health care podcast. Yeah. Thank you.