Humans have been burning cannabis since our earliest relationship with it.
Cave evidence shows that early humans would take whole cannabis plants and put
them on small fires in caves, and essentially hot box the cave,
and then they would have a mystical experience and done with the right
intentions. We still can.
We love smoking cannabis because the lungs provide a speedy and efficient way to
get cannabinoids into our blood and into our brain.
That's why smoking comes on faster than any other method. Hell, yes.
There are at least two strong reasons to consider vaporizers, though.
The first is that not everyone has lungs of steel.
And the longer we smoke hot plant material and tar,
the more impact our lungs take over the years.
There are also folks who have other respiratory diseases like C O P D,
where cannabis smoking can be used as a medicine.
But smoking anything at all is impossible for asthmatics like myself
and other folks with respiratory issues,
vaporizers create a fun and effective method for us to be able to use cannabis.
The second strong reason to consider vaporizers is how much improved the taste
can be to be able to enjoy cannabis flour without all the burning plant
material. Getting in the way of the terpene profile is a great thing.
Many of us love the intense flavors of dab oil without the plant as contaminant
vaping.
Flo is similar in that we are inhaling the resin of the flour without
taking in all the burnt plant particulate and tar that gets in the way of true
flavor.
You've likely heard me talk about cannabis from Antic perspective before,
both here on the podcast and on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel as well.
On shaping fire,
episode 36 on cannabis and breathing with Robert Litman,
we discussed how best to inhale cannabis to preserve your lungs,
how to incorporate cannabis into asthma and C O P D care.
And we addressed the longtime myth that holding your hits gets you higher.
Spoiler is hypoxia, not t h c that makes you feel higher.
Today's episode is a blend of cannabis medicine ideas and cannabis engineering
ideas.
If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently
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You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Shago Lo.
My guest today is aerospace engineer Mark Lewis.
Mark is a lifelong engineer of systems, machines, and organizations.
He has been an aerospace engineer for Hughes Space and Communications in Los Los
Angeles, looking for new challenges.
Mark joined the Peace Corps and went into the jungles of Fiji to teach science
and help with revitalizing schools. There.
This experience profoundly shaped his views on the critical impact that
education plays in society,
which led him to commit 15 years to improving K-12 education and becoming the
statewide policy director for STEM education in Oregon.
Most recently though, Mark Lewis is again,
an engineer and inventor of novel vaporization devices for cannabis products
through his company Pearl Labs.
His award-winning designs have been honored by the 2022 Core 77 design awards
and selected as the 2022 best designed vaporizer by Enigma.
I discovered Mark through his first in product class vaporizer invention called
the Neo. The neo can be used with any pipe or bong or rig. Um,
imagine lighting your cannabis with a lighter like we always have,
turning it upside down,
but instead that lighter gives off really intense radiant heat instead of flame,
you just put his vape later over your flower or oil, and it vaporizes.
There isn't anything like it on the market and I love mine,
but Mark is not here to talk about his company at all today. You know,
I don't do company, person or product profiles on shaping fire. We do topics,
topics that you're interested in.
So Marcus here is my science and engineering expert to break down the science
and engineering behind modern vaporizers without talking about his own
during the first set. Today we will discuss why cannabis enthusiasts vape.
We'll talk about the advantages and disadvantages and the differences between
burning cannabis, flowers and oil versus vaporizing them.
The second set is devoted to engineering.
We will look at the three families of vaporizer technology that make up nearly
all the vaporizers available, and then compare and contrast them.
We will look at them twice, once for flour and once for oil.
It's a big set with a lot of details.
You will pretty much understand everything, you know,
need to know about vapes as a toker. After that, the third set is short,
and we focus specifically on the boiling point myth that conflates evaporation
and boiling, they're not the same,
and it really impacts your experience with vaporizers.
Welcome to Shaping Fire Mark.
So happy to be here, Shango. Thanks for having me on the.
Show. Excellent. All right, let's dive right into it. You know, a lot of people,
um, feel kind of, uh,
motivated and nearly religious about their vaporizers once they start using
them, but, um, you know,
a lot of people don't understand the why of vaporizers yet, cuz in reality,
vaporizers aren't used a ton in the scene yet. People are still mostly,
you know, lighting their cannabis with fire. And, you know,
humans have been burning cannabis with fire for thousands of years to like great
effect. So let's start by talking about the advantages, uh,
cannabis enthusiasts are after when they start using a vape device
instead of combustion. Will you tell us a little bit about those advantages?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think first and foremost, uh,
there's the health aspect, right?
So anytime you are actually combusting, uh,
as the people on the West Coast and now the East coast know, uh,
the detrimental effects of the wildfires on their lungs and their eyes, uh,
you know, smoke carries a lot of harmful products in it, the ash,
the soot, the tars. And so first and foremost, uh,
the process of vaporization removes a lot of those,
or almost all of those detrimental, uh,
compounds from what you're inhaling. So, uh, by and large,
they are healthier, um, than than smoking. Uh,
they're also more efficacious. There's been some research studies, uh,
about vaporizing flour, um, versus smoking it.
And how much, uh, is bioavailable,
how much of the medicinals and the active ingredients get absorbed into your
bloodstream? Um, it's, it's much higher than than smoking. Um,
so there's the bioavailability, um, of the compounds, which is also, uh, very,
um, effective. And then I think the,
the smell is one of the things that you know, well, personally,
I love the smell of, you know, com cannabis being combusted. Uh,
but it's a little powerful for some, and it, and it lingers, um,
because the smells, the smoke, uh,
actually gets onto your clothes or onto your, into your room. So,
so the smell of, uh, of vapor vaporizers, um,
tends to be quite a bit more discreet. Um, yeah.
And then if you're talking about the, uh, vapor pens, the cartridges,
then those are very, very discreet and very convenient, um, for people to use.
It's really been a benefit to cannabis, uh,
portable vaporizers that they became popular the same time
as nicotine vaporizers,
because people are so used to people busting out nicotine
vaporizers that I can pull out my travel vaporizer anywhere.
And unless they're close enough to smell the exhale, they, you know,
people around me have no idea. So that's been a real, you know,
advantage for all of us who, you know, attend events or,
or even just walk along the street.
Yeah, that's a real boon for sure. Yeah.
Um, so let's, let's talk about, um, the, uh,
the advantage also to people who've got preexisting conditions like me. Sure.
You know, I like, like, you know, people who listen to this show, um,
often know that, that I have very severe asthma,
and because I have a respiratory, um, condition, I have to be, uh,
gentle on my lungs. And, you know, I still smoke joints, but like I I,
I know after I've smoked a joint. Right? Um, yeah, for sure. And, and like,
you know, um, when, when you go, when I go to events like, you know,
Emerald Cup or something where, you know,
you gotta puff tough the whole weekend, um, you know, I really feel that,
um, for several days afterwards and, and for,
for many people with asthma or C O P D,
if we want to inhale our cannabis, um,
vaporizers are a, uh, fantastic option, um,
because it's, uh, so less harsh on our lungs.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
It's missing all those ash particles that that lodge into your, your lungs. Um,
yeah. And, and certainly the heavier tars and oils are also removed from it.
So it's, it's much, much easier on, on your lungs. You.
Know, when pe when people talk about like the, the,
the unhealthy aspects of smoking, almost everybody just goes to cancer.
Right. But it's, it's interesting to hear you delineate that, you know, the,
the, the, the bits of smoke and the particles in the smoke and, um,
the tars and all of those things on their own have their own kind of
impacts, even if they don't eventually lead to cancer.
Yeah, for sure. And and I try to really avoid, um,
you know, uh, criticizing people who, who smoke. Cause I,
I don't think there should be any sort of judgment,
and there's so much social stigma around smoking these days that I don't think
that's the reason why not to smoke. I think it's really, you know,
from a health and taste and, and the bioavailability for me, you know, uh,
it's, uh, it's a much more complex experience than smoking.
Yeah. And, and, and we'll get to it later, but it's also a different high too,
so It is.
Completely, yeah.
Um, so, but we also need to be fair, right? Because even though vapes still,
um, even though vapes are so improved for people's lungs, um,
it's not without it's challenges, right? Um, it's still heated air.
We're still in, he we're still inhaling super heated air.
Yeah. By the time, um, it well, compared to smoke, uh,
which, you know, you can, can reach temperatures, you're inhaling well,
right at the embers, you're, you're talking, you know, over a thousand degrees,
uh, at the ember. But, uh, you know, if you're smoking a joint, you're,
you're looking at five, 600 degrees, uh, in your mouth. And with vaporizers,
you're, you're well down into, you know, the hundreds, uh,
you know, into the low hundreds, you know, 180, 200 degrees at the most,
I would think by the time it enters your mouth.
I have not done put a thermocouple in my mouth to measure that paper, but, uh,
yeah, it's, I don't experience that, that, uh,
lung irritation from heat.
Alright, so then, so then maybe I'm misattributing, you know, some,
like I talk about vaporizers a lot with just like regular heads, right?
Not usually with scientists like you and we, so, you know, it's,
it's not uncommon for somebody to say, oh my gosh, I've been,
I've been hitting my vape so much that my lungs feel crispy. All right.
So what, do you have any suggestion on what, uh,
what is the attribute of a vaporizer that might make my lungs feel
crispy? Especially if it's a flour vape, like, you know,
my old school packs or something?
Yeah. To make your lungs feel crispy, you're, well, uh,
we're gonna get into I think some of the, the,
the things that are happening at a, at a micro level, but, um,
if you're really toasting your herbs strongly, you probably are, um,
uh,
changing the nature of the terpenes and the cannabinoids into other,
um, thicker oils, um, that can, uh,
reside then in your lungs and have that heavy feel to it.
And then certainly with cartridge based, um, vaporizers, uh,
the carrier oils make a big difference. And, uh, we think we know,
uh, the background around the Ali Skara a couple of years ago, uh,
with the vitamin e acetate mm-hmm. , um,
and that's exactly what was happening, right? Is is the carrier oils were,
were impacting your lung experience.
I think it's also fair, uh,
if we're gonna be talking about the downsides of vaping generally,
to talk about what a, uh, you know,
plastic battery waste and trash from packaging
nightmare cartridges are . Oh, sure. Um, it's, it's such a drag and,
you know, um, for years I, I mean I,
I'm not sure if cartridges have solved this yet,
but for years I would have a little Ziploc with, you know,
partially finished vape cartridges that just had all of
this waste in there and I wasn't even gonna be able to get the oil out anymore.
And it just seemed so wasteful, like, like dub tubes.
Right? Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. Um, uh, and then, uh,
I guess we also have to be careful about, um, you know,
the terpenes for either oil vapes or for,
um, you know, even, I guess that would be the only kind,
cause people don't really add terps to flour, I hope. But, um, you know,
we don't really, there really aren't a lot of studies on what it is,
what it means to,
to vape the amount of terpenes that are common
in an oil and, um, you know,
terpenes are by their very nature caustic and it'll, it, it,
we won't know until it's too late if it's actually unhealthy to do that.
And, um, I I'm sure you've come across that a lot as,
as you have done your research.
Yeah. Uh, well, I never recommend that people add pure terpenes,
uh, to, um, anything that they're smoking or, or vaporizing,
uh, because they are, uh, solvents , right? So if you think about,
uh, you know, limine, um, it's, it's a wonderful solvent.
It, it's, uh, helps clean your hands, it can get stickers off,
it can do all sorts of wonderful things. Um, but when you're,
when you experience, uh, terpenes and, and we've, you know,
grew, you grow up smelling flowers right? Your entire life, uh,
and the history of humanity, we've had a very rich interaction with,
with terpenes in a very beneficial way. So in very small amounts, um,
terpenes are, are phenomenal, right? So, um, keeping,
keeping as close to nature as possible is, is kind of my rule.
Right on. So, so let's talk about that, right, because, um,
it's interesting because if we we're talking about this idea of keeping it as
close to nature and, you know, if, if we humans are,
you know, a, a thing of nature,
and we are a part of nature and we are not excluded from nature,
the way that we have been using this natural plant with cannabis for
thousands of years have been, you know, by fire, you know, going into the,
you know, pulling out the plant and,
and going into the cave and putting it on the fire and filling up the cave with
smoke and, and, you know, then, then learning to, you know,
craft little pipes when we could control the fire better. And,
and then of course, you know, eventually developing hash. So we're,
so we're able to store it better and right, and, and not burn and,
and combust as much of the plant material. Um, and, and,
you know, so many of us love that profound good taste of,
of combusting, you know,
quality herb that has been grown and cured, um, properly.
And,
and then yet at the same time as we start to use vaporizers now
I am enjoying the same plant in an entirely
different way. Um,
that's giving me a different experience of the terpenes
and, and, we'll, we'll talk more about the, the,
the science aspects of it later on. Um, but, but it's, it's,
it's an entirely different taste where there's, there's almost a,
a needed transition period when somebody goes from flour to vaporizing
because it is so different. Would you describe the difference, um,
in, in taste experience, I guess,
between combusting and vaporizing the same flour?
Wow, , that's not hard. Uh, um, well, I,
I would concur. I, uh, first and foremost with, uh, the experience of,
and rituals of, uh, consuming a nice joint or,
or your pipe or your bong, I think we have, uh,
learned to, um,
manage our experiences with those devices and with combusting by,
um, you know, the, we,
we get a certain feedback that helps us con, you know, manage our experience.
And when you're shifting over to, for example, flower vaporization,
um, the feedback that you're getting is, is much, much different.
Your lungs are not experiencing that in intense hypoxia, you know,
the, the, uh, you know, constriction and the lack of oxygen.
Um, instead you're taking a deep breath, um, of,
of vapor that is rich in, uh,
the cannabinoids as well as the terpenoids. And it's, it's,
it feels gentler, but that can be deceptive as well because,
uh, as I mentioned earlier, it can get you higher. So you have to,
you have to learn to manage your feedback differently with vaporizers than you
do with, uh, with our traditional modes of consumption.
I, I like that, uh, use of the word feedback because, uh,
I would say the number one complaint that I've heard from people who are just
starting, um, uh,
using non cartridge vaporizers is that like, did I,
did I get a hit? You know? Right. Because the,
the hits with a low temp, um,
you know, handheld vaporizer, I mean, heck, even some of the desktop ones, uh,
it's, it, it feels,
the inhale feels so much thinner. Um, and,
and it's weird because so many people who are developing vaporizers,
and then because we, we, people keep asking for 'em,
we want vaporizers that will give us clouds. Right, right.
Right.
And like in like, clouds are an aesthetic experience, uh,
of, of both feeling a good hit, like, like feedback you were talking about,
and also the satisfaction of exhaling and seeing this wall cloud, right.
, which, which traditionally is,
is part of the satisfaction from taking a bong rip. Right. Totally. Um,
so would you talk a little bit about why, um, you know,
why that hit is, is thinner? And I,
I guess you've kind of already addressed that because there's, there's,
there's not as much particular in there.
I guess I would like to you to talk to more, like, um, uh,
are we missing anything from that thinner feeling hit?
I don't think so. From my perspective, I think, um,
you, again, when,
when you have smoke and it has the ash and particulates and stuff in there,
your lungs constrict. And so you get that intensity, um,
a a feeling of, of in, of, uh,
being a little more intense because you're your,
your lungs are responding to, uh, these things that, you know,
are contaminants, um, from its perspective. Uh,
whereas when you're vaporizing flour, uh, then your lungs are,
are not feeling that, uh, intensity of invasion, you're,
you're getting things that it recognizes and they're binding to the oli
and then being moved into your, uh, into your bloodstream. And so,
um, so that's one aspect of it to the clouds.
I think that is a learned feedback that we, um, are judging,
uh, our experience based on these clouds. But at the same time, your,
your lungs can only absorb so many compounds at a time.
So anything that you're exhaling, uh, with a vaporizer,
you're exhaling those active ingredients.
If you're seeing a cloud that's kind of wasted byproduct. Yeah. Because you,
your lungs haven't taken them up and, and delivered them to your bloodstream.
So that's, that's another way of thinking about it. And at the same time,
there's always been a, a bit of theater in, in cannabis, right. .
And so we enjoy that as part of the social aspect.
Yeah, that's, that's really true. Um, alright, so, uh, if,
alright, I've got two sides of this coin,
and so I'm gonna give you the coin and then you can approach it however you
want. All right. On, on, on one side of the coin, um, you know,
we're taking these, uh, these, these thinner hits, I'll say.
Um, and, and you know,
you say sometimes they, they'll actually get as higher, right?
But then on the other side of that coin are many people,
when they first start vaping,
they feel like one hit is not as satisfying for them and they don't get as high.
And so they're all like, well, you know, I need to take like, you know,
two hits, uh, or three hits of my,
my flower vaporizer to get the same feedback
as I would from my bong. Um, yeah.
But then also some days you just go and you have, you know,
one hit of the vaporizer and you've got this like really like
speedy, bright sativa kind of high even potentially from, you know,
um, a non equatorial plan, right? That something that that's more merc rich. So,
so what, what I'd like you to kind of just speak to is this idea of,
of the hits being thinner, and so we have to take more of 'em.
And yet the misnomer in that that like, we actually can get, get wicked high,
wicked fast from vaporizers too. Like, like how,
like as somebody who studies the technology and the, and,
and the user experience, how do you kind of resolve those ?
Because they're all true, right?
? Yeah. They're all, they're all true. Uh, yeah.
So for the same, let's, let's put some boundaries on,
on where we go with this. Fair enough. That sounds good. Um,
so for the same amount of herb, um, uh,
I will claim, and I think research backs me up on this, that, uh,
you will get higher if you completely vaporize the same amount of herb,
um, as smoking, but it's over, as you mentioned,
over far more hits, I guess, um,
maybe you, you know, double or triple the hits.
So that's one aspect of it. Um, yeah.
And yet paradoxically, it's, it's more effective. So, uh,
the where I'm actually going is when you first load a fresh bowl,
um, with a vaporizer, uh, you, we haven't talked about decarb it yet,
and decarboxylation doesn't take place immediately like it does with fire.
And so your early poles, um,
are going to evaporate some of the T H C A without
necessarily converting it, um, to thc. Interesting. And so,
yes,
your first couple of poles are probably going to feel
a little thinner and maybe not affect you, but that third, fourth, fifth,
sixth are going to be fully decarb and,
and a lot more intense.
You know, that's so obvious. But I have never thought of that before. Huh.
That's really interesting. So, so I hear that two different ways.
Number one,
I like it because if my first hits are going to be offering me more T
H C A C B, G A C B D A, right? Then my latter hits,
that means I'm gonna get all these acid forms of the plant which are
healthy and good for me. Yep.
But the longer it stays in the vaporization chamber, the heating chamber,
the the cannabinoids will be changing to the non-acid versions.
And so I'm getting a,
perhaps a wider array of that. And, and for, for,
and for the listeners who are not, um, familiar with decarb decarboxylation,
um,
essentially what you need to do to make THC and intoxicants
is that you have to heat it to a certain point that change,
it changes it from an acid to a non-acid. And when, and you know,
when we normally smoke bowls or, um, smoke joints,
there's so much fire in, in that joint that it happens instantly.
But as Mark was talking about earlier, we're not,
we're not burning at a thousand degrees,
we're talking about more like a couple hundred.
And so that process doesn't happen instantly. Um, right.
So then the second thing I'm thinking,
not only am I happy about getting all these acid forms of the cannabinoids on
the flip side, if I am dollar conscious,
that's gonna really annoy the hell out of me because I could see that as wasting
cannabinoids. Because if I'm, if I'm money conscious and I'm trying to get,
you know, the most bang for my buck, I want to get high,
I actually will be disappointed that I'm smoking T H C
A, um, like the first hit or two. So it really it really is different,
um, consumer to consumer.
Yeah. I think, um, I, I have never experienced disappointment,
uh, with flower vaporization. I'll just say Shang, go . Um, and, uh,
you through vaporization, and again,
when we get into the mechanics of, of different kinds of modes of,
of vaporization, um, you know, we can see how they'll behave differently.
But, uh, often you, unlike with fire, um,
when you're combusting, you've got a lot of sidestream,
you've got a lot of wastage, and with many vaporizers, um,
certainly the, the more reputable ones, uh,
you are not heat actually heating the cannabis when you're not inhaling.
And so, uh, the, your bowl goes a lot, lot longer. Um,
and from an efficiency standpoint,
you're the over the overall amount of product that you are going to be
purchasing in a month to, uh, manage your health and wellbeing, um,
is likely to drop significantly.
I see. So it's a, it's a much more, uh, complex algorithm than I was giving, uh,
credit to it. Also, as far as like the wastage goes, um, it's, it's,
uh,
it's always noticed how much smaller the heating compartments are
on, uh,
vaporizers as they are like from your hand blown glass slide. True.
That can take, you know, a thumb sized gram nug in it, right?
And then you go over to your vape and it's asking you to take like, you know,
one 10th 10th of that. Yeah. One 10th of that and then,
and then grind it and then put it in there. It, it, it usually looks like a, a,
a paucity is, I think that's the right use of that word.
It looks like such a small amount of weed. Um, but then, and then, but then,
you know, still gets you high. And so it's, it's confusing. It's less weed,
it gets you high,
but you need to take more hits and then you're getting a lot more T H C A,
but over time you're, you're wasting less. So it's actually budgetary smart.
Yes. . Damn. I think you nailed it.
. Oh man. Alright.
So, um, alright, so let, let's, let's wrap this up.
So I wanted to start this first set with, um, you know, conversations about,
you know, the why of it kind of generally, but, um, no doubt,
I know I have invited an engineer here. So, um,
we're gonna go and take a commercial break and then when we come back we're
gonna, uh, get into a more serious discussion about, uh, the engineering behind,
um, the popular varieties of, of vapes and go through some, uh,
oil vaping solutions and flower vaping solutions and really get into the
mechanics of it. So, uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is aerospace engineer
Mark Lewis. And, you know,
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host, Shang Golos,
and my guest today is aerospace engineer Mark Lewis.
So during the first set we talked about why we vape, uh,
what the in cannabis enthusiast experience is, and, uh, you know,
some of the, some of the challenges and work throughs for those.
But we're gonna get into more of the nitty gritty of the engineering behind, um,
uh, both flour and oil vaporizers now. Um,
both so that you can, you know, just be a little deeper on this,
this very important aspect of the, you know, cannabis culture.
But also this should help provide a, a bit of a, uh, you know,
a shopping guide for you as you, um, you know, as, as you learn about the,
the different types of vaporizers. And,
and you can figure out what what you might be interested in, uh,
should you decide to pick one up. So Mark, you know, you know,
there's a lot of different approaches designing vaporizers and there are so many
coming out on the market all the time now. Um, and,
and we're gonna talk about flower vapes and first,
and then vaping oils second because,
because they really are like different things. So,
so let's talk about flower vapes. So like,
do flower vapes fall neatly into a few different categories so that we can
kind of bunch 'em up and talk about them?
Or is there so much for a variability model to model that we have to like,
take 'em one by one, God help us.
. Well, not all vaporizers are created equal for sure. Shang, go. Um,
and when it comes to flower vaporizers, there are two primary categories.
Uh,
and those are convection based vaporizers and conduction VA based vaporizers.
Now, uh,
anyone who's stood around a campfire has also experienced radiant heat before,
and that's, you know, heat transfer at a distance, if you will. And,
um, some vaporizers, uh, might include that. And that is certainly a,
an effect that, uh, impacts sort of the, the internal working of,
of, uh, of a vaporizer. To summarize, you know,
just briefly the differentiation between the two modes, um, conduction.
And honestly, I'm gonna encourage you to not be necessarily that brief. Right?
Okay. Like, like we don't necessarily need to do a dissertation,
but this conduction versus conve convection thing that I think that you're about
to wade into, like this is key, right? So Right, right. So, so,
so take your time so that we can all pick up on this cuz just the fact that
conduction and convection are so similar immediately confuses people right out
of the gates. And so, so like, so like take your time because I think this is,
this is a chunky bit.
Sure, sure. Okay. Well, you know,
in short conduction is a heat transfer through touch, right?
So if you are a, a conduction based vaporizer has an oven,
it has a chamber, uh, either made of metal or ceramic,
and you place your herb in,
in that and the vaporizer heats up that oven.
Um, and so your herb is being heated through the,
from the walls of that little oven of that chamber. Um,
and that's conduction. So it's being heated largely by touch.
Uh,
a convection based vaporizer is sort of like a convection oven or an air fryer.
You're heating up the air and then that is being, uh,
transported or pulled or pushed through your herb. Um,
and that hot air then extracts, uh,
or evaporates the, uh, various compounds.
So conduction is actually your flower touching the heating
piece and convection is somewhere up the up
the chamber, the, the,
the air is being heated and then you're sucking that hot heat towards the flower
and the heat is touching the flower instead of the metal or the thic.
Right? The air is flowing through,
the hot air is flowing through and evaporating, um, the compounds,
the volatile compounds.
Okay. And then the third kind was radiant where, um, there is,
there is, uh, some kind of device that's, that's, uh,
itself just hot and you're, I'm putting it in,
in general proximity, but it's not, it's,
it's neither touching the flower nor far away.
Right. Right.
Okay. Um,
so can you give us a little bit of explanation on the
conduction convection timeline? Because, you know,
I know that generally speaking people consider one better than the other. But,
but I would like you to just kind of, um, explain the, the,
the beginning of vaporizers design, what was first and then,
and then how they've kind of evolved and, and,
and while not everybody likes the same kind of vaporizers,
kind of where the people are responding in the market.
Yeah. Uh, I think the earliest vaporizers that I'm aware of are,
are certainly, um, you know, they played around in the seventies with,
with heat guns, um, and, uh, you know,
just delivering the hot air, uh,
that evolved to some of the whip based, um, vaporizers,
like the Vapor Brothers, the early boxes with, uh, I.
Still have my vapor robbers whip box man.
. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Bert there, he's, hes Wizard,
he's one of the grandfathers of, of, uh, vaporizers. He's a really good guy,
understands all of this. Um, those were, were largely convection based,
um, vaporizers,
so they were heating the air and it was flowing through your herb. Um,
now when it started to move to more portable, uh,
kind of devices, it's a lot easier to manufacture in small,
um, you know, compact designs, uh,
to engineer a conduction based vaporizer. Um,
so to heat up the oven, throw your herb in that oven, um,
something on the market, a a cup, some of the ones like the packs,
um, is, is largely a conduction based vaporizer.
And so how we want,
how will picture that is that all of these various vaporizers where it's got
some kind of little lid and, uh, you put your flower in there and it's,
it's actually, you know, touching it against, um,
steel or ceramic and then you're putting the, the top back on, um,
they all kind of fall in the same category no matter what they look like. Uh.
There's a sizable portion, um,
but there's others on the market that are hybrids and, and do,
uh, a lot of the heating of the air, uh, you know,
the crafty and mighty by stores and beckel. Um, they will, you know,
heat the air, uh, but there's also a conduction component to their design.
So some of the heat, you know,
is transmitted up to the walls of the chamber as well. So they're, uh,
both introducing hot air as well as conduction from the sides. Um,
and, uh, trying to then get an even, uh,
vaporization of all the products.
That's a good point for me to not be over generalizing and,
and make it look like they're the, these are really such, um,
separated uh, solutions. Because, because you're right. You know,
like everybody is in, is inventing and trying to find the,
the technology blend that works best for their product. And, and,
and so anybody who's gonna buy one,
make sure you understand the one that you wanna get directly and not,
you know, just something very general that you, you know,
that you read generally about conduction or whatever.
Right? Right. Mm-hmm. .
Alright, I interrupted you. Please continue.
Um, well, I was gonna say just to, to highlight some of the differences.
When you actually have, uh, a hot, um,
hot material touching your herb, uh, you have a danger of burning it,
right?
Because they have to compensate by delivering a lot more thermal
energy through the walls in order to have it than, um,
cook, if you will, the herb that's in the middle of the chamber.
So you have a much higher likelihood of over roasting, um,
your herb and getting that kind of burnt popcorn taste that, uh,
some people complain about.
I do not care for the toasty.
No, no, I'm a light roast kind of guy. Light roast. There you go.
Uh, so, so you, so if, if you're going to get, um, you know,
more of an opportunity of the toastiness with conduction, um,
uh,
you would not get that with convection because the heated air
is coming in contact with your,
the entirety of your flower mass at the same time, right?
Uh, correct. Um, well, it's, it's impacting the, the,
wherever the inlet side is, it's getting a blast of the heated air, you know,
first that that particular, uh,
part of the herb is going to get the heat blast first. Mm-hmm.
But then it's going to be pulled through, uh, your herb. Now, uh,
in a convection based vaporizer,
you can also pump up the power so much that, uh, you do,
you know, over roast it as well.
So if you're up at combustion level temperatures for that air,
it will certainly combust on you,
but most vaporizers try to avoid that.
Mm-hmm. , well, you,
you would really need to have your temp like really cranked up at that.
Point. You would've to have it cranked up. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. So let's go back to your timeline that you were giving us. Um,
you know, you gave, you talked to us about the box vapes and then the, you know,
the first I'll say real breakthrough, um, you know,
to the consumer market vape of the packs. Um, and then,
and then things continue on to conventions. So please, please pick it up.
Uh, yeah,
well I think a lot of the things that you're seeing on the market now are
variations, uh, of a very similar approach. Um, uh,
a lot of vaporizers are trying to, um,
portray flexibility, uh, through incorporation of different, uh, apps,
um, you know, so that you can control the, the temperature settings. Uh, and,
and we can talk about, you know, ,
whether or not they can actually do that or not. Um, most vaporizers, uh,
are able to, you can set a particular setting, um,
and vary those with an app or directly through the button control. Um, let's.
Go ahead and have that conversation now.
Cause I was gonna ask you that in two questions anyway. You know, these,
these temp controls, and I,
I know we're kind of like talking about the entirety of the market,
so that's not really fair. But generally speaking,
are these temp controls to be believed because, um, you know,
un unless I'm paying a good penny, you know, for a vape and, you know,
getting like a, you know, stores in Bickle or something, uh, I'm pretty,
I'm pretty suspicious of these,
these temperatures that I'm being told that they're heating at for anything that
I'm paying under 200 bucks for.
Yeah, I, I I think you're right to be suspicious, um, on that, uh,
for a couple of reasons. Um, some don't actually use a thermal couple,
you know, a, a a,
a sensor that feeds back the actual temperature.
And then moreover, I think the, the biggest thing is, well,
think about a regular oven. You heat it to 350 degrees,
but as soon as you open the door to put your cookies in, um,
then it drops a considerable amount and the same with a vaporizer.
So as soon it might heat it to a steady state,
but as soon as you start pulling cool air in, that's going to vary the, uh,
the actual temperature of the airflow and the vapor that you're experiencing.
Now,
the good side of the temperature settings that
on a particular vaporizer is that you'll probably get
relative consistency from one session to another, um,
regardless of whether it's actually true. Mm-hmm. . Um, so,
so that can still be a very,
very beneficial kind of attribute to a vaporizer so that you can be able to
dial in the experience that you want from one session to another.
Right on. I, I buy that. I think that makes a lot of sense. So,
so even though on some of the lesser, um, expensive vapes,
the, uh, the temps maybe not be accurate to, you know,
the number that they say it is. Um,
but at least it's gonna be same from session to session.
So once you find out the, you know, where you like it, um,
it'll be able to hit that mark consistently. Yeah. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense. I like that. Um, so let, let's talk about the,
the grinding part, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, so, you know,
historically a lot of people don't, um,
grind flour for a bowl. Um, uh,
many people will grind flour to roll a joint,
though my mentor hated grinders and believed it always had to be done
by scissors. Um, but I think that was because he, um,
he was always collecting seeds, so I'm not sure about that. Um, but, but,
but when it comes to, you know, grinding, you know,
every book that you get with your vaporizer says to,
uh, grind the flower so you get a more even experience.
Will you speak to that?
Mm, yeah. Uh,
I really don't like grinders, but it's true. Uh, on,
on, well, there's pros and cons, let's just say. Yeah.
Break it down. Tell us.
Let's break it down. Uh, when you actually grind your herb,
you are changing the particle side and making some uniform
consistency in the, uh,
when you pack your material into your vaporizer.
And so that can be very beneficial to get even flow similar to grinding
coffee, right? You can't make coffee with whole beans , you know,
you have to have to grind it. And for different coffee makers,
you grind it to different sizes.
So it's a similar analog for,
for flower vaporizers too. Uh,
grinding will certainly give you that consistency, uh, of the,
of the pack, if you will, or the puck as I call it,
cuz it comes out as a puck once you've used it. Um,
but I don't really like the,
what happens to my trichomes. Um,
I don't want to go chasing after keef and then reintroduce it to, uh, the bowl.
Um, so I prefer actually to chop my, my herb directly in,
into the chamber or to the bowl. Um, when.
You say chop, do you mean like, uh, like finger separation or scissors?
I, I actually just use fingers to pluck small, you know, uh,
small size. And then I, I have a,
have a tiny little sharp knife that, uh, that I poke it with mm-hmm.
and, and tease it around and, and get it to a,
a fairly uniform consistency. So that's, that's my method,
but everybody has their own kind of method, but I like to keep my trichomes, um,
with the rest of my herb.
Yeah. And,
and I guess some of that also depends on what kind of a grinder you're using,
right? Totally. If you're not using the keefe attachment, um, it stays with it.
The part about the grinders that I haven't really cared for is,
is this smearing of all the trichomes and Absolutely. And then like cleaning,
cleaning them off of the grinder. You know, if, you know, back, back when I was,
you know, younger, that seemed like a lot of waste. Completely. I mean,
it still seems like a lot of waste, but I have, I have plenty of weed now,
you know, I'm unlike when I was younger. Totally. And, um, but,
uh, for me the, the main advantage of the grind is to get that,
um,
nice even pull and to know that I am not
wasting the, the tricombs that are, um,
on the interior of the little bud lits, let's say, that are in there. Right.
Um, am I correct in my assumption that the,
the hot air
and the conductive walls of the oven,
neither of those will vaporize a trichome
that is caught on the interior of a dense budd little piece?
Uh, yes. In general, um,
the , it really depends on the size, right? Mm-hmm. , uh,
of, of what you're dealing with there. Um,
I would say that, uh, yes, it's, it's more efficient to,
to actually grind your urban to be able to access those internal trichomes.
I'll just leave it at that . Yeah. I mean this is.
This is clearly personal preference, right? Right. So, so you, you,
you gave good reasons why you're, you know, on your side and, and I did as well,
and you and I all both have plenty of weed , but to some,
somebody else whose decision matrix might be slightly different. Well,
I want them to be able to get the information they need too. Right?
Totally. Totally. I, I.
Have, I know lots of people who have opinions who,
who I need more than just their opinion because I, I I,
I wanna un I wanna kind of understand the whole area so I can make my opinion.
Right. Right. What I tend to do, I mean, again, this is my personal preference,
is, you know, when you have those small nuggets, you are correct that the,
the internal trichomes don't immediately, um, aren't accessible to,
to the hot air. Um, uh, what I tend to do is,
is open the chamber back up and crush it, and then release all of those things.
I see.
Once, once, once you've hit it a couple times and it's dry.
Then it's dried and it will then fall apart readily and you
Yeah. And then you've got your even, uh,
distribution then of particles and it's, uh, more efficient.
Right.
On the next thing I was gonna ask you was the reg recommendation that most of
these, these companies have to stir. Yeah. And, uh, and so, you know,
usually somewhere around, I don't know, hit four or five, they say, oh, pop,
pop, pop it open and give it a little stir. And oh my God,
it just kills me how,
how often I see somebody using a pen with ink on the end to do that .
And I'm all like,
you're not even thinking about what you're putting on your err dude ,
but it's way too common. But anyway, then they,
then they close it up and continue on and, um, you know,
do you think that stirring is, is effective?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, almost all vaporizers have,
um, you know, with the airflow going through,
you're not going to get even heating of, of your herbs.
So stirring it just means you're,
you're moving the sort of the unspent particles around moving the oils
around so that they can be efficiently vaporized. So I,
I strongly encourage stirring, if you want to get the most out of your herb,
if you're feeling kinda lazy and, and you have got a, you know,
an abundance of herb available, then, you know, whatever you want.
Right on if you're feeling, if you're feeling lazy or wealthy. Um.
Right.
. So, so at what point would you recommend this stirring? Um,
I usually stir when I, when I taste the toast for the first time. Right. But I,
I also suspect that I'm, I'm, I'm one hit late at that point.
Yeah. Uh, it, it really is a personal preference,
so you can stir every pole, which is a pain in the butt. Yeah. But, um,
yeah, every three or four poles, you know.
I've never tried ever every pole. I ha like that, that,
that sounds like so much work, but it's, I I should,
I should do it for the experience for sure.
So that I can weigh all this properly.
Yeah. I would never do it. Every poll .
Um, you know, we, we talked on the first set about how, um, you know,
cloud hits are different with vapes,
and yet sometimes you do pull clouds and sometimes you do pull bigger
flavorful hits, even if there is no cloud. And, um,
in my experience,
whatever cloudness I'm going to get from a vaporizer is improved with stirring.
What are your thoughts? Yeah.
I, I can see that. Yeah. Uh, and again,
I think that once you're into pole two or three, you've, um,
you know, you, you have decarb, you have warmed the bowl,
you have removed any, uh, of the residual, um,
sort of moisture in the urban, and so they just, it just becomes,
the whole system becomes a lot more efficient, you know, three or four poles in,
and so you are going to get, uh, more, you know,
bigger clouds more easily at that point.
All right. So, um, so, uh, let's, let's move on.
Unless you've got anything else to say here. Let's move on to oil vapes. Yeah.
Well.
Let, let me talk, just Yeah, please briefly about a couple,
couple of other things. Excellent. Um, here,
one is that we haven't talked about sort of the exhaust,
what happens to the vapor after it's moved through your herb.
And, um,
frequently another thing to look at in a vaporizer is how much
accumulates, you know, in that vapor pathway. Uh, some,
some, uh, vaporizers on the markets, and I'm not gonna call them out, but,
you know, claim for an all glass pathway. Uh, well,
glass actually is, is a fairly conductive material. Um,
it tends to be cool. So we,
we have this perception that we want to cool the vapor. Well,
once we cool the vapor,
you've got those oils that are then condensing in that pathway.
And the way you can tell, you know,
sort of how efficient the vaporizer is,
is how much gunk you have to clean out and how often, um,
so another sort of buying decision is to look at, you know, just how much, uh,
you know, what happens to the vapor after it goes through the herb. Um,
are you having to frequently clean it? Well then that's not really,
you're not getting the maximum benefit from your vapor. Mm-hmm. .
So I wanted to say that. Um,
and then one of the other sort of controversies or questions that are out there
is, is how, how much do you pack in your chamber? You know,
how do you press it down? Do you, uh, crush it? Um,
how dense do you, do you pack it in? Um,
and my take on this from a sort of aeronautic science kind of
direction is that for convection based,
so the ones that are using the hot air for a convection based vaporizer
tamp it down, so press it down and compress it.
It's similar to what you do with an espresso shot. You're removing any,
um,
sort of easy channels for the air to flow past your herb rather than through
it. And air will always find the path of least resistance.
So if you have those channels and the larger buds in there,
then it's gonna flow past rather than through, um, your herb.
So definitely compress it, uh, down,
and it creates what's known as back pressure,
which is similar to a carb cap on a dab rig. It lowers the pressure,
um, right there at the herb and it will vaporize more efficiently.
Wow. I'm really glad that you went back for that. Um,
not only is that interesting, but I do it wrong. You know,
I noticed it earlier when you said, um, you know,
when you take the puck out of your vape, right? Right. And I'm all like,
I'm all like, man, I don't, I don't, I don't have pucks, ,
it's just like, it just comes out as like slightly brown
ground up weeds still, you know, uhhuh. Um, and, and in my head,
I,
I wanted to leave a little breathing room so that the hot air
could easily be, be drawn through it,
but now I understand from your analysis that,
that I'm doing it exactly wrong because by my leaving it somewhat loose
in there, even though that does make it easier for the stirring, uh, step, that,
um,
that I am cre I'm allowing easy vapor paths that
that will be preferred by the physics of the inhalation,
when really I wanna press it down so that there's all these multitude of,
variety of paths that are being taken.
For a convection based vaporizers Yeah. For a convection. So for,
for a conduction based vaporizer or like a DAV app,
which is the really innovative design, right? Mm-hmm. ,
I like those basic Yeah. They're look like, I mean, they, they replicate the,
the notion of smoking. So it's like a, it's a smoke like experience, right? Uh,
but there are largely a conduction based, uh, you know, vaporizer in,
in that regard, the, the metal heats up, right? For, for,
for something like that, or the packs, um, I, which many people have,
I would say a,
a looser pack is probably better because you're heating from the walls.
So how does the heat then transfer? If it's really dense?
The heat is not gonna be transported through your herb because your herb itself
is, has low conductivity, wood and plants.
They don't conduct heat very well. Um,
whereas then the air that's moving through there, you want it to circulate and,
and the heat to then move into the center of, of that chamber. So, um,
for a conduction based vaporizer, I would pack it a little more loosely.
You know, it's interesting too, to hit on the dine of app one more time. Um, uh,
I, I, I have owned one and the one I have,
I've only ever used it with, uh, my butane torch. Right, right.
And that's an interesting experience to hear the little crack sound and then,
and then know that it's time to take your hit all. That's very interesting.
I'm not a super big fan of using the torches in general though. Right. Um,
but then my buddy Michael, you know,
he came over and he is like a total di of va like fanboy. Like he, well,
actually, he kind of is just like a vaporizing scientist, actually. He,
you know, until, until I met you,
he pretty much knew more than anybody I knew about him. And, um,
and so he got this, uh,
he got this desktop thing that Dinova has got where it's like you,
you plug it in and you can just kind of put the pipe into it and,
and it acts kind of like, um, it,
it transfers electric energy to it, and it's very convenient.
Like an email is, and then, and then you just take it out and you hit it.
And it's, it's so much more elegant. And it's,
it's interesting that it is a product that has multiple, um,
heating mechanisms because really that's pretty uncommon to have multiple
heating mechanisms for one vape system.
Yeah. I, I,
I really am impressed with the sort of the engineering background of,
of the dine of app and what they're doing. I,
I believe that's an induction based heating, um, sort of block that you,
you drop it in, and so it uses induction to then heat, um,
it up to the perfect temperature. So, uh, I think that's pretty fantastic.
Excellent. All right. Are you ready to move on to oil now?
Sure.
All right. So, so as kind of like a bridge place,
let's just give a little bit of a shout out to those flower vaporizers
who really, really wanna be oil vaporizers too, . And so, um,
you know, they will, they will have like little solutions like, um, you know,
oh, I've, I've got a little cup and you can, you know, you,
you can take your oil and put it in the cup and then drop it into the flower
chamber or Right. Um, or, or, you know, we've, we've got this, you know,
specialty screen or a sponge, you can put your oil in that,
and then we'll put it into the flower vaporizer and, and, you know, those can,
um, people can definitely find effectiveness with those.
But I think that across the board,
it's really hard to make one vaporizer
that's best for all solutions. And, and like, if you only,
if you're only gonna buy one and you need one that does both, that's like,
there are definitely some good solutions out there. But, um, you know,
going all the way back to the, the, the original packs,
like little cup that was in there, you know, I,
I got mine assuming that it was gonna be an oil vape and a flour vape,
but that little, that, that little cup just,
it didn't really work out over time.
Didn't, didn't really work. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So, so what are, what are your thoughts on,
on these vapes that try to straddle?
Well, I think that when it comes to vaporization,
um, of, of an oil, it's all about trying to maximize your surface area.
And so when we're dealing with flour, it's great because the flour fibers,
uh, wick the oils and distribute them across the, across the fibers. And it,
it's pretty easy.
So one way of experiencing oils or concentrates, uh,
would be to just drop it on or mix it in with your, with your flour. And,
and that can be a pretty effective way of using, uh,
the flour vaporizers to experience oil.
But then you've got a mix and you're not getting that purity, um,
that a lot of people who dab are seeking, um, from, from their extracts.
And so the, um, just, I'm gonna do a little bit on the,
because I spent a couple of years trying to find a solution to this. Yeah, yeah.
With oils, and most of the vaporizers,
the flower vaporizers in the market use a stainless steel
kind of Brillo pad, if you will. Um, they,
it's just a bunch of stainless steel wire that's been compressed into a little,
you know, shaped puck or disc that then gets dropped into the, the chamber.
Um, the challenge with that is that, uh,
metal will warm up and not reach, uh,
the vaporization temperatures very readily.
So while it's warming up your thick oil or,
or concentrate your wax or shatter is going to start melting,
and it's gonna travel along that, uh, along those wires.
And oftentimes before you reach the vaporization temperatures,
it's gonna start flowing into the rest of your unit and you're get get that
gunk everywhere. Um, so no, most, most,
uh, that try to do both are, are not very effective.
Um.
How many of us have had that experience early in our token career where, um,
we try to put, you know,
a ball of bubble hash or something into our bong with, uh,
with a screen and, and we're warming it up, and as we're warming it up,
we're seeing it like, slide down the slide on the glass and you're like,
you're like, I, I only got one hit off of that. And now it's all like,
now it's all recla. Yeah. It's all inside of the bong. Ugh. That's,
it's.
Sad. That's disappointing . Yeah. It's very disappointing,
but it's similar. I mean, that's exactly what's happening inside the vaporizer,
and then you end up having to clean it out and, and that's no fun.
Nobody likes doing dishes.
, you have very good point. Um, alright,
so let's talk more about like oil vaping solutions that are specifically for it.
Let, this really isn't gonna be a long show on carts. Right. But,
but let's do talk about just, um,
the idea behind the carts and how they function. Um, uh,
but carts could be like their own show, you know, so Right, right.
So if you would just explain the mechanics of carts, um, that'll be great.
Yeah. I mean, basically you have, uh, carts are, are a very
interesting and efficient, right. Um, they're very convenient. Uh,
the oil basically is, uh, you know,
is in the cartridge and then there's a heating element. Um,
oftentimes there's a wick or a wicking mechanism to
make sure that the oil gets transferred to the, to that heating element,
um, or to a hot ceramic, uh, that then, uh,
locally basically boils the oil locally.
And so that then, uh,
that vapor then is transmitted and, uh, you know,
through the mouthpiece and aerosolized. Um,
one thing I learned recently is that, uh,
part of the design of, of many cartridges is actually to introduce,
uh, an external, they have little air holes,
and that is to make sure that the vapor is less
dense, um,
and that it coalesces back into an aerosol rather than staying in fine
particulate form. And that was always, that fascinated me.
Part of that is to increase sort of the cloud production,
but also to make it a little easier on your lungs and to cool it a little bit
before it enters your lungs.
Mm-hmm. , I, you know, as, as far, you know,
we're really gonna focus on, on non-car vapes, but,
but since we're right here, I think that it's important for us to say, you know,
whatever your preference is in, you know, what you want in your vape. Like,
you know, I'm a big fan of hash razin personally,
but I certainly have got respected friends who like properly purged b h o for
flavor. And, you know, there's, there, there's a wide range of,
of what you can put in the vape.
The only thing I want to be clear on is to know your source,
because there is a lot of garbage that can be put in the vapes. Um, and,
and it, it was weird in the early days,
people didn't really know what was best to put in the vape.
So people tried everything from, you know, uh,
coconut oil to vegetable glister and all these different things. And,
and, and God help us. We made it through. Yeah. And, and,
and so now we know mostly we, we don't wanna be, you know,
adding non-cannabis
constituents. Um, but then
the ones in the,
in the licensed market are often so expensive for lots of people that,
that they tend to buy them cheaper in the unlicensed market. And then,
then we're back to the problem of, oh God, what the hell's in it? .
Right. And so, um, you know, whatever, whatever your oil preference,
dear listener, um, you know, know, know your source because we want,
we don't want you to get, you know, some kind of serious lung issue from Right.
Uh, from using some sketchy stuff.
Right. And, and to, for, from a functionality perspective,
you have to have something added to the cannabis oil or it
won't flow well. Right.
So there's a degree of, uh, of flow that,
that enters into the design, uh,
and requires something to kind of cut or thin, um,
the oil to make it function properly. Now, one of the,
go ahead. Go ahead.
Is that always the case though? Cause I really thought that the, that like,
the big breakthrough in the last like 18 months is people being able
to press hash rosin at a viscosity, um,
that they can put in, in these,
these new vapes and not have to have any adulterant at all
to it. And I, I thought that was true. Is that not accurate?
I, I don't know. Shango. Okay. Fair, fair enough. Stop. Yeah. Fair enough.
Fair enough. I, I haven't seen those designs yet. Um, and that's exciting.
If it is, um,
one of the cautions that I would say for people with, uh, the cartridge based,
uh, vaporizers, because at least I experienced this, um,
and that is that throat burn mm-hmm. , um, that often happens. And,
and it's easy to think that that's temperature, but I,
I don't believe that that's what's really happening. Um,
any time that you drop, let's say, uh,
if you've done Chinese cooking or, or dropped, you know, hot oil onto,
or oil onto a really hot pan mm-hmm. , that's like red hot, right?
Uh, you get, um,
a lot of you convert those oils fairly rapidly
into other compounds that are thicker and are, uh,
polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. You know, well said, they become,
uh, worse, they become bad shit, you know, is, is really what happens there.
So anytime you're, uh,
really putting the oil in the presence of something that's super hot, um,
it's going to alter the chemical structures of those compounds.
And so that's what I believe, uh, the throat burn is due to.
Um, at least that's my, my,
my armchair science background on that.
I'll take it. And, and also, damn if that's true, uh, that,
that explains why so many people have turned away from cartridges and gone to
some of these other solutions, um, like the Puffco Peak,
which we're gonna talk about in a second. But, but before we do, um,
so do you consider an email vaping or combustion?
I would say it's a, it's a form of vaporization. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Right.
And I was wondering if it had to do with like the temp, because you know,
certainly we, we do, we we do see smoke from it, right. And,
and, but we don't ever see fire. Um, and so I was kind of,
of this idea myself, cause I've used an email for years that,
that at my lower temperatures as a vaporizer,
but at higher temperatures it's combustion.
But that might be like the most non-science thing I've said today.
. Well, if you're experiencing a, again,
you can alter the chemical composition without it being combustion.
So at high temperatures, when you pass the smoke point of an oil,
you start altering the chemical composition,
and that can feel like combustion, right. Um,
it's a, it's a harsher effect. And so when your nail is, is super hot,
um, uh,
largely it will lead to that kind of a thing.
So there's been a lot of movement to the,
to the cold start dabbing or low temperature dabbing. Yeah. Um,
and emails have certainly helped that, uh, quite a bit, um, to,
to dial in the, the temperatures more precisely.
Right on. Um, so, um, so we're gonna, next, let's talk about the,
the, the Puffco peak, which, um, you know,
stands out as being, you know,
one of the most cherished, uh, instruments, um,
you know, in the oil community, you know, it's, it's, um, it's convenience and,
and the fact that you, you know, you were talking about the, um,
oh, surface area, right? Right. And one of the great things is they,
they've got these, you know, their,
their bowls are great and they're pretty evenly heated throughout it.
And so you've got a lot of space at once that's in contact with the oil at the
same time. And, and, you know, I, I guess I wanna be clear that, you know,
Puffco is not like a sponsor or anything, you know,
o other people like the focus, uh, Carta, right? So like,
I'm talking more about the design mm-hmm. where it, it,
it looks like a bong and, and you've got this, this wide bowl and,
and then it's heated, and then when you put your concentrate on there,
um, you're, you're gonna get a,
a large vapor hit at once because of all the surface area. Um, do,
do you like how I'm explaining the science behind that? Is that,
is that how you see it too?
Yeah. Yeah. I have not had a ton of experience with the Puff Coat, but it's,
you know, sexy af, right? I mean, it is, it is , you know, let's face it,
it, it, uh, hits all the right, uh, notes, I think for,
for being a fantastic product and, um, you know, and it,
and it can really deliver for those people who want that experience. So yeah,
it's pretty revolutionary from an email perspective.
And, you know, they got a lot of crap over in, in the early years because there,
there were some models that went out with some, you know, failing components,
which they've, they've, I guess they've figured out over the years,
because I haven't heard people comple compare, uh, complain about that anymore.
But, um, have you ever seen the, the, the,
the specialty Puffco peak, um,
hand blown and,
and made glass trophies that they used for Emerald Cup the last few years since
they started sponsoring them? No.
I haven't. Oh.
My God, they're absolutely beautiful. Um, uh,
I wish I could plug the artist who does such a great job on them,
or maybe they change 'em from year to year. But anyway, if, um, that's great.
You know, for tho who,
those who like puffco and they also like ostentatious pieces,
you know, you know, uh, search for the, for the Emerald Cup, um,
awards, they.
Look pretty good. Yeah.
I've seen some great wood ones online where people are making some oh,
wood dots, some gorgeous wood pipes that, uh,
that then the Carta fits in and yeah. Yeah, those are gorgeous.
So you can have that smoking like experience, but then enjoy your,
your extracts.
So th this whole family of, uh, of p pipes,
like the Puffco Peak and the Carta,
these all would fall into the conduction category, right. Because, um, that,
that ceramic bowl that's being heated, and then we're putting our dab oil on it,
that is a direct application of heat. Correct?
Correct. Correct.
Yeah. Cool. Um, do you have any,
do you have anything else to say about that? Like that,
that type of design before we move forward?
No, I think that, well, I, I always have something to say, I suppose.
Go ahead, finish this off on.
This topic. Something Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, um, again, look at,
at the waste product, right? So what's left in, in the bowl when you're done,
uh, and that can tell you a little bit about clues to the,
to the chemistry that's happening, um, during the process of vaporization.
So when you're left with, you know, dark, uh, resee, um,
substances, uh, then you've, you haven't completely, uh, vaporized them.
And you may have altered the chemistry just like when, uh,
in a cartridge that's near the end of life,
the oil has changed from a maybe a light honey, um, to a,
a really darker, uh, blend because you've altered the oils,
um, and you're left with some of that heavier kind of, uh, compounds in there.
Does. Hmm. That's interesting how what is left, um,
depending on what is left, uh,
can say something about your temperature choice,
but it can also say something about what's in the oil.
True.
Um, so other, other than the,
the under combusted dark oil that you're talking about, what,
what else might we find in re remaining in the bowl that
we would want to be aware of?
? Um, well, you're not having any plant matters.
So what you've got are, are largely just different oil compounds.
Um, when you, uh,
when the changes happen to terpenes. Uh, and Dr.
Stren from Portland State University has done some interesting research on,
on dabs and sort of the byproducts of,
of conventional dabbing techniques.
This doesn't apply to low temperature dabbing, uh,
but for high temperature dabs, um, there's, you know, a,
what, there's a great word pyrolytic, but literally means fire changed.
Uh, and thermal lytic is probably the more accurate thing. They, the,
the oils then break down into those benzene rings and these other,
um, you know, hydrocarbons that have been shown to be present in,
in, uh, you know, cigarette smokes and be, uh, you know,
cancer causing compounds.
So I'm not saying that that's what is in there,
but there is a likelihood of of, of finding those kinds of,
of compounds in that remaining.
Goo.
Goo. Yeah. Thank you. I was trying to think of the right thing. It is goo,
it's gunk, it's gross. Um.
And it, and it's a really, um,
good encouragement for us that when we do get a new vaporizer to,
um, really spend some time getting to know, um,
the different temperature points so that we can, you know,
really find the right temperature for how we like to smoke, so that we're,
we're not having that much, much, um, you know, uh,
residue and that we're not tempted to smoke it once it's become gunk. We wanna,
we wanna heat it properly, so, uh,
we get to inhale it pre gunk.
. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Um, you know,
for anybody making a selection of a, of a vaporizer,
it really comes down to your preferences, right? Uh, you know,
how much do you value the discreetness? There's a time and a place, you know,
for a, for a vape pen that's, you know, nothing else is going to,
to actually fill that need, um, for you. Uh,
and then how much of an enthusiast are you, are you concerned about, uh,
preserving terps? Are you looking for the full,
kind of a more relaxed ritualized experience, which some of those will give you?
Um, or are you looking for something that's a little faster? And, uh,
you actually, I, I don't know about you,
but I really don't want to interact with my phone to then control my ,
control my vaporizer, right. Uh, interact with my phone enough. So yeah,
it really.
It does take you of it, it does take you out of being present,
but I also have to cop to the fact that I've never done that yet. So I, I look,
I look forward to having that opportunity.
There you go. Yeah. So how much is the technology, um,
enhancing your experience,
or is your technology getting in the way of your experience? Is it,
is it becoming part of the focus of your experience or not? Yeah. To me,
an ideal product kind of fades into the background and you don't have to think
about it too much.
Right on. Well said. All right, so, um, let's bring an end to this, uh,
rather long set and go to our commercial break. Uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire. Oh,
and let me make sure you that you come back, cuz,
because if that was a long set for you,
you might be like thinking about taking off.
But don't go anywhere cuz we're talking about something really important.
On the third set,
we are talking about boiling point myths and the difference between
evaporation versus boiling. So make sure you come back from that. Uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is aerospace engineer
Mark Lewis.
After you've caught up on the latest shaping fire episodes,
do sometimes wish there was more cannabis education available to learn? Well,
we got You.
Shaping Fire has a fabulous YouTube channel with content not found on the
podcast. When I attend conventions to Speak or moderate panels,
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The Shang Los YouTube channel has world-class speakers,
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be sure to check out the three 10 Part Shaping Fire Session series one with
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And even my own presentations on how to approach finding your dream job in
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even though the risks are so high as of today,
there's over 200 videos that you can check out for free.
So go to youtube.com/shang golos or click on the link in the newsletter
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Sometimes the topics I want to share with you are far too brief for an entire
shaping fire episode. In those instances, I post them to Instagram.
I invite you to follow my two Instagram profiles and participate online The
Shaping Fire. Instagram has follow-up posts to shaping fire episodes,
growing and processing best practices, product trials, and of course,
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The Shang Lo Instagram follows My travels on cannabis garden tours,
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insights and best practices from personal grows everywhere and always gorgeous
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So I encourage you to follow at Shaping Fire and at Shang Golos and join our
online community on Instagram. Welcome back, you are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shloss, and my guest today is aerospace engineer Mark Lewis.
So here's the big finish. During the first set, we talked about why we vape and,
and what the customer experience is, the consumer experiences and,
and why so many people are attracted to vaping. During the second set,
we went in depth into the vaporizer technologies as as they are right now.
And, uh, a whole bunch of strategies for, for, you know,
getting a vape in your hands that fits your, um,
smoking preferences because they really are a personal device. Well,
here in set three, we're gonna finish up with a discussion of, uh,
evaporation versus boiling. Um, because, you know, uh, if, if,
if the primary physics that we want to have happen is the
cannabinoids and terpenes and the,
the rest of the resin components to be vaporized and then inhaled into our
lungs,
it really does matter what their volatility levels are and whether we're
evaporating or boiling.
And in our scene on Instagram or on Reddit, you know,
it's very common to see these little charts that show all of the
volatility points for different terpenes and cannabinoids and,
and we feel like that empowers us. Um, but Mark,
you've written this great blog on your website, um,
that explains how that belief is not quite right
and, and then people are using that information and the the thermostats
on our, on our vaporizers in,
in ways that aren't maybe getting the results that they're looking for. So,
so I guess, I guess let's, let's slow slide into this by,
by talking about these charts that exist and,
and what their limitations are that you see as as a engineer.
Yeah, yeah, thanks Jengo. I appreciate that. Um, the,
I'm fascinated by these boiling point charts, and when I first saw them,
I was like, oh, that's really cool. And oh, these vaporizers are,
are saying that I can dial in, you know, a particular terpene. If I,
you know, if I dial it at to 349 degrees Fahrenheit,
I will get laminine, you know, because that's the boiling point of limine. And,
um, you know, that's just not true . It's the bottom line of that.
Um, as you, as you look deeper into it, uh, you know, those,
those may be the boiling points, um,
boiling points are notoriously difficult to actually measure.
So there's boiling ranges. Uh, most scientists, uh,
use boiling ranges rather than a particular boiling point, uh,
because it's pressure dependent and,
and there's other aspects of the purity of the sample and all of these other
things that, that lead to boiling or not boiling. Um,
so there's that, but that's not as relevant as the other aspects here. The,
the great thing about the charts is that it gives you some relative
volatility of the compound. So by volatility,
how easy is it to go from a liquid to a vapor?
So something that's super volatile, um,
at room temperature will evaporate really rapidly.
Think of rubbing alcohol, for example. So that's a pretty volatile compound.
Whereas as water is not a very volatile compound, uh,
it takes a little bit more work to get those molecules into
their, into their gaseous form. So those boiling point charts are,
are great to understand some relative volatility, but they're,
they don't tell the entire story, if you will.
So,
so do they have any value to us as people who are
consuming cannabis with vaporizers? Like, like if there,
if there might be some, you know,
maybe not inaccuracies in them,
but some contextual things that are missing,
can they be useful to us at all? How could we use them to our benefit? Or,
or is it, is it, is it just not useful?
Yeah, no, they're,
they are useful in understanding sort of the relative nature of these different
compounds. So what we've got in cannabis, uh,
is this wonderful bouquet of,
of different aromatics and flavonoids and cannabinoids,
um, that are in this mixture.
And it's helpful to maybe think about it as a perfume. Um,
and in that perfume, there's these top notes that are lighter.
They're the citrusy notes. They're, you know, they're, uh,
if you think about that in terms of a perfume, there's, there's your top notes,
your mid notes and your base notes. Now,
if you put on your cologne or your perfume, um, you know,
right away you're getting those earlier notes as part of the mixture.
Um, they're more dominant,
but you're still getting the base notes and those smells, uh,
as the perfume evaporates off of you. Um,
but the mixture later on,
an hour later is going to maybe be less on the top notes and more
dominant with the mid notes, but your base notes are still there as well.
And then later on into the evening, you know,
a lot of your top notes have all evaporated, your mid notes,
there's less of them.
And your base notes then are the dominant smell that you will smell.
And similarly, uh, that happens more rapidly, um,
with vaporization, uh, particularly flower vaporization,
is that you are for a particular power setting on your,
on your vaporizer, um, you are going to get a different mixture,
um, of, of those compounds. And your second pole will be slightly different.
Your third pole will be slightly different.
Your fourth pole will be more different.
And throughout your session with a particular, uh, bowl, um,
you're going to be left then, uh, at the end with some of the heavier,
more difficult to volatile, um, compounds, but they'll still be present.
You know, that sounds fun, but also frustrating, right? Because I,
I want all of it at the same time, but,
but my mind suggests that the way that I would get them all at the same time
is if I am, uh,
using a really hot setting, right?
Which would then also give me a satisfying cloud perhaps. But,
but what I'm doing is I'm like racking probably the more volatile
ones in order to get the more base ones.
And even though in my head I'm thinking, oh, if I,
if I scorch it at this higher temperature, I'll get,
I'll get all the good stuff at once. That, that isn't really how it plays out.
Is it?
Uh, yes and no. I mean, if you, if you crank up the heat, you're going to,
uh, volatilize more rapidly, right? Um, so you're going to get,
uh, you're, it's still gonna happen in a similar way. You're, you're,
your lighter compounds are gonna evaporate more rapidly.
It's just gonna be on a compressed timescale. And so the benefits of,
of those who choose to do low temperature vaporization is that it
spreads out that extraction, if you will, over over time.
And so you're able to taste and experience the subtleties,
um, you know, in a different way. A again, if, if,
if I'm have a medical condition that I'm, um, treating, uh, and I,
and I need that rapid onset, then, you know,
by all means crank it up . So what.
What would be the, what would be the tempera that you would recommend,
temperature you would recommend if somebody's goal is to, uh,
get as much as they can out of it, you know, teaching, tasting,
you know, uniform in, you know, just a hit or two.
Yeah. Well, I, I would, you know, personally, I'm, I'm never personally.
You wouldn't recommend that.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend that. Um,
I think you get a lot more out of your cannabis, uh, through a, a lower, I,
I started out there Shang go, uh, when I first, uh,
started exploring vaporization, and I wanted to, you know,
ratcheted up to that pre combustion point, right?
So that I had that heavy roast. I, I felt, you know,
got the feedback that was more familiar to me, like smoking. Um,
and honestly, I, you know, over the last couple of years,
I consistently start dialing it back farther and farther and farther.
And it extends my session a little bit, but my enjoyment level goes way up.
Uh, I don't approach with the bowl.
There's a point in your bowl where you start to experience a,
a bite and, and that's when I cash out mm-hmm. . And, uh,
if you're up in that pre combustion zone where you're at, you know,
temperatures around 400 or, or greater, um,
you're going to get to that bite a lot faster. Mm-hmm. .
And to me, then I'm wasting products because I didn't experience all,
all of the joy that the rest of the compounds were, were offering me.
Um,
I think that that speaks to a really important point and can probably be like a
theme for the show, which is, um,
part of choosing to use a vaporizer for your consumption
involves, um,
having a different experience than combustion,
because vaporizing is never going to be combustion.
And so part of becoming a regular vaporizer is,
is learning to smoke in new ways. For example, um, you know, uh,
people who are fans of the Cold Start, where, where you,
you warm up the tool already loaded and, and, and the,
the, the dab oil slowly increases and you're,
and you're taking hits as it's warming up, working its way all the way up. You,
your, your sesh has significantly expanded in the time.
And also, um,
your every hit that you take is going to be different.
But that,
that evolution of the hits is itself a a different
experience, an enjoyable experience,
a connoisseurs experience that you, that you don't get with, with a joint.
Yeah. It's, it's slowing it down a little bit. Um, uh,
which I think we've lost a little bit in, in our cannabis consumption, right?
Keep, keep the foreplay in cannabis.
. I love it. . Yeah. Well, it,
it's, uh, leaning into, I mean,
we don't do shots of alcohol anymore after college. I mean, maybe occasionally,
but, uh, to me it's, it's more like sipping a fine cocktail or a whiskey,
uh, rather than, you know,
slamming it back and not just going after the end result. Uh, again,
no judgment, because you know, that,
that was a large part of my life for a while. Um, but, and, and.
As we've talked about throughout the show,
this whole show is about personal preference, right? Yeah, absolutely.
So we're not trying to judge anybody.
No, not at all. Not at all.
It's just be open-minded to experiencing cannabis differently.
And I think that's what Vaporization offers you is this, uh,
you know,
a a really different way to enjoy really high quality cannabis.
And, uh, I'm blessed and you're blessed. Uh,
and others out there are blessed to live in places where they have really
conscientious cultivators who are creating these amazing
terp rich, uh, uh, varietals, um,
that I think deserve to be experienced in their fullest. And for me, uh,
flower vaporization is a way for, for me to taste and experience that, uh,
complexity, uh, that the plant has to offer. And, and the high is different,
uh, than, than combusting.
Well, that, you know, that that's a really great ending to the show there. Mark.
You know, I, I was gonna ask you if,
if there are any more boiling point myths that you wanted to point out.
And so I am, cause I don't, you may,
you may have something else that you wanna bring to the table before we wrap up,
but that was, that was beautiful. Uh,
do you have any other boiling point myths that you wanna bring up before we end
the show?
Well, the, well, the only real thing is, is that, um,
the mechanism is not really boiling, which is internal to a fluid. It's,
it's better to think about it as evaporation, uh,
and just a rapid evaporation rather than, than a boiling.
I see. So, so the charts that point out, the boiling point,
they may be scientifically accurate, but, but really,
because evaporation starts before boiling, we're back to, um,
you pointing out that it, it really is more of a, a range. Yeah. And it,
and it is a range that every time we take a hit, um,
we're going to cool the, the heating element to some degree.
And so we're, we're just gonna be whatever temperature we we pick,
we're actually just gonna be kind of cycling up and down in that general
neighborhood.
Yeah. Some devices warm up faster and, and compensate, but, but largely,
yeah, you're, you're, you're doing that kind of cycling, um, back and forth.
The boiling points again, give you the relative how,
how you're gonna experience, uh, that bowl, I guess.
Excellent. Well, mark, thank you so much for being a guest on Shaping Fire.
You know, um, I, I've been a fan, um,
of Vaporizers for years and, you know, but I've never actually like,
studied them very hard. And, and as I said in the introduction, you know,
when I met you,
you had the actual scientific answers for,
for the questions that I had had for years. And, and,
and it was funny cause our, you know,
well our first phone call was over an hour. And, um, and I was like,
so excited to hear you cross applying all this vaporization,
um, all these vaporization questions I had to, to, you know,
aeronautical, aeronautical engineering and, and rocket science. I was all like,
oh, I have finally found my person for, for the vaping show. So,
um, so I really appreciate you, um, you know, uh,
coming over and hanging out with us on Shaping Fire for a little while and, and,
uh, you know, sharing your expertise and also, you know,
kind of taking it out of the heady super science vocabulary that you and
I used on our first phone call and,
and kind of put it in layman's terms terms today so that we could do a show that
would be open to everybody. So, so I,
I appreciate your knowledge and your ability to make that knowledge accessible
to all sorts of different kind of cannabis enthusiasts.
Well, thank you so much, Shang. Go.
And thank you for all that you have done over the years to really educate
consumers, uh, about this wonderful plant and,
and other plants that are out there. Um, it,
you've been a part of my own educational journey and your guests have been,
uh, part of that journey.
And I just wanna do a shout out to all of those people in the cannabis space who
are helping to educate others, uh, and to deify, uh, this,
uh, industry. Because the more we can deify it, uh,
the more we can move beyond the stigma and, and start really celebrating, uh,
what the plant has to offer us.
Fabulous. All right, dear listener. Um, if you want to, uh,
learn more from Mark, um,
I highly recommend that you check out his website where he has got a
handful of blog, uh, entries that are very interesting, uh,
with all sorts of charts and graphs,
including the one that we did this last set, primarily focused on,
on boiling point myths, which, uh,
it goes into far more detail than we did here today. And, um,
you can find the blog section at his website, which is pearl labs.com.
And so it's spelled specially,
so it's P R R L l
A b s.com.
So it's kinda like a cat pearl labs.com.
And there you will find, um, you know, his blog and,
and also the vaporizers that he has, um, engineered himself,
um, with all of this insight. And, uh, I'm a big fan of the, uh,
the neo that I talked about in the introduction. So at the very least,
go check it out because a, uh, a vaporizer that functions like a,
uh, like a handheld lighter is a pretty cool thing to see.
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Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shang Lo.