1 00:00:07,070 --> 00:00:10,730 Fungus of all kinds are really becoming popular with a wider range of people. 2 00:00:11,140 --> 00:00:14,850 Psilocybin is slowly starting to be legalized for research and therapy while 3 00:00:14,850 --> 00:00:18,210 psilocybin microdosing has exploded in every corner of the country, 4 00:00:18,790 --> 00:00:22,010 we are hearing reports of fungus that eats microplastics, 5 00:00:22,270 --> 00:00:24,090 how Turkey tail helps cure cancer, 6 00:00:24,430 --> 00:00:27,850 and how lion's main mushroom are pretty much your brain's best friend. 7 00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:31,690 Of course, culinary mushrooms have been enjoyed by humans forever, 8 00:00:32,190 --> 00:00:36,130 but we are seeing a huge resurgence in home and small farm growing of culinary 9 00:00:36,410 --> 00:00:36,720 mushrooms, 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,890 meaning that rare non-commercial varieties are popping up at farmer's markets 11 00:00:41,030 --> 00:00:43,890 and in the neighborhood trades. Last year, 12 00:00:43,970 --> 00:00:46,570 I discovered that I totally loved wine cap mushrooms, 13 00:00:46,670 --> 00:00:50,170 but I had never come across that craft mushroom until gifted it by a home 14 00:00:50,170 --> 00:00:53,610 cultivator. Now I'm constantly searching for them. And finally, 15 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:58,170 the fungus in the soil is essential for all the food we eat and the flowers we 16 00:00:58,170 --> 00:00:59,530 love, especially cannabis, 17 00:01:00,590 --> 00:01:04,330 so many mushroom varieties touching our lives and being helpful in so many ways. 18 00:01:05,270 --> 00:01:08,850 If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently 19 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:11,530 and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. 20 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,290 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 21 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,090 delivered right to your inbox, 22 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:19,290 along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the week 23 00:01:19,430 --> 00:01:20,370 and videos too. 24 00:01:20,820 --> 00:01:24,170 Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. 25 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,010 Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. 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And I'm your host, Chango Los. 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,540 My guest today is Stephanie Garcia Mycologist. 37 00:02:07,980 --> 00:02:10,820 Stephanie Garcia has a degree in botany and plant pathology, 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,260 and completed her master's program at the University of Hawaii in tropical 39 00:02:15,380 --> 00:02:16,500 conservation biology, 40 00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:21,860 focusing on below ground fungal diversity over varying environmental gradients 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,020 on Hawaii Island. After completing her masters, 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,300 she proceeded to tour Southeast Asia studying local plants and mushrooms, 43 00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:30,700 and landed back in Oregon, 44 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:35,140 spending time between cannabis harvests and the Bureau of Land Management. 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,820 She now studies both Endo and Ecto Microrisal Fungi and their associations and 46 00:02:40,820 --> 00:02:45,540 benefits to various plant hosts As quality compliance manager at Microrisal 47 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:46,373 applications. 48 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:50,820 Stephanie and her husband Emery are expecting their first child in just a couple 49 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:54,740 weeks. So we are especially glad that she chose to fit us in before that major 50 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:56,780 milestone. And if you listen closely, 51 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,840 you'll hear their dog's Norm and Betty in the background. 52 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,580 On today's episode of Shaping Fire, 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,900 we will make sure we are all on the same page regarding the differences between 54 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:10,420 mycelium, mycorrhiza, endo, Mica, and Ectomic Iza, 55 00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:13,180 followed by a deeper discussion about mycelium. 56 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:17,780 Specifically during the second set, we will focus on Endo Mica, 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,820 its functions and how you can damage its functioning by inhibiting the symbiosis 58 00:03:22,820 --> 00:03:23,900 taking place in the soil. 59 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,660 And we finished the episode with a wide ranging discussion of best practices for 60 00:03:28,820 --> 00:03:31,740 creating a thriving environment for mycelium and mycorrhiza, 61 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:35,980 including Innoculants, proper watering pH, proper nutrition, 62 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,900 and the use of ground covers. Welcome to Shaping Fire, Stephanie. 63 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,380 Thanks for having me, Chango. 64 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,460 So let's start off with two bits of vocabulary that are misused all the time in 65 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:52,060 soil discussion. Mice and mycelium will be used, 66 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,220 you know, obviously the entire episode today, 67 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,180 but it isn't uncommon for folks to use the two words micro and 68 00:03:59,260 --> 00:04:02,820 mycelium interchangeably and, and they're not the same thing. 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,340 So will you start by teasing those apart for us? 70 00:04:06,450 --> 00:04:09,780 Certainly. Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. 71 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:13,340 I like that you point out that some people can get certain things confused like 72 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:17,180 that. So when we talk about mycelium, 73 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:22,220 we're actually talking about the vegetative structure of 74 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:23,133 a fungi. 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,780 So you could think of it as being analogous to plant roots. 76 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,500 So you could think of it as fungal roots. 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,500 So that's what the MyUM, that's what mycelium is. 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,620 So if you have a mushroom, 79 00:04:38,620 --> 00:04:42,100 if you go mushroom hunting and you find a fruiting body, 80 00:04:42,610 --> 00:04:44,380 like say you go for morels right now. 81 00:04:44,380 --> 00:04:46,980 Cause it's a perfect time of year to be looking for morels, 82 00:04:46,980 --> 00:04:51,020 there's gonna be an entire network of their root system underground. 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,860 Now, when we are talking about micro, 84 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,940 that's actually describing a symbiotic relationship. 85 00:05:00,610 --> 00:05:05,580 It's a mutualism and it's occurring between the plant roots and those 86 00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:07,020 fungi fungal roots. 87 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,380 So Mic Rae is, 88 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,380 is more of an activity than a physical 89 00:05:17,590 --> 00:05:21,940 thing that, like, that has a, a name that's a noun. It's, it's, it's, 90 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:25,940 it's more active than that. It, it describes this relationship. It isn't, 91 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,460 it isn't necessarily like, oh, there's a mice right there. It's more like, 92 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,140 ah, those are two, that, 93 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:38,140 that is a host and a fungal network exhibiting Mike Rza 94 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:39,293 activity. 95 00:05:40,090 --> 00:05:44,620 Yeah, yeah, that would be correct. So, you know, I mentioned the morale earlier. 96 00:05:44,890 --> 00:05:47,460 That is a Microrisal fungi, 97 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,700 but you wouldn't call their root system a mic. Mm-hmm. , right? 98 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,700 So you could say a morale is a microrisal fungi, 99 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,200 but when you want to describe what, 100 00:05:57,300 --> 00:06:02,080 how the morales mycelium is interacting with its plant host, 101 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:06,200 that would be the Microrisal symbiosis. So yeah, 102 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,240 micro is really describing the symbiosis. 103 00:06:10,030 --> 00:06:13,680 It's used incorrectly all the time, , and like, you know, 104 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,520 earlier in my soil knowledge, I definitely was, um, uh, 105 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:22,320 you know, doing that myself. So, um, and while we're at it, 106 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,760 because even though during the first set we're going to discuss mycelium 107 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,080 networks, and then we're gonna focus more on mice and set two, 108 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,360 I am pretty sure that you're going to be talking about mice, um, 109 00:06:35,260 --> 00:06:39,160 as part of your answers during set one. So we, 110 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:41,240 we should probably also get the, 111 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:44,160 the other key vocabulary that we want to tease apart too, 112 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,000 which is the difference between endo micro and ectomic. 113 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:55,680 Yeah. So Endo Micro ii, when you think of endo, 114 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,520 you think of inside, or that's a Latin, you know, 115 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,520 meaning for endo is inside. Um, 116 00:07:02,980 --> 00:07:07,120 so really what it's describing is what's happening more on the cellular level 117 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:11,400 inside of the root. But if we go even more broadly, 118 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:17,240 endo micro fungi form symbiotic relationship with about 119 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,160 80 to 85% of, um, plant species. 120 00:07:22,460 --> 00:07:26,640 So all of our agro, most of our agricultural crops, um, 121 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,600 a lot of our ornamental crops, all grasses. 122 00:07:30,860 --> 00:07:35,800 So I call 'em more of our bread and butter of Microrisal fungi 123 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:39,680 because they associate with such a wide range of host plants. 124 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:44,320 Um, now let's go back down into the root. On the cellular level. 125 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:49,480 Hyphy will penetrate into the root, and it goes between cells, 126 00:07:49,660 --> 00:07:51,960 but it also goes inside the cells. 127 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:57,800 And then inside the cell is really where the nutrient exchange is occurring. 128 00:07:58,580 --> 00:07:59,413 And the endo, 129 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:05,280 they make a specialized structure called arcus. 130 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:09,960 So that's a site of nutrient exchange. Um, 131 00:08:10,710 --> 00:08:14,520 most endo microrisal fungi also, uh, 132 00:08:14,670 --> 00:08:18,080 form vesicles. That's a storage structure. 133 00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:21,320 These fungi are really good, um, 134 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:27,040 at helping plants overcome drought type conditions. Vesicles, 135 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,840 they believe for, you know, one reason why they can do that. So, 136 00:08:31,860 --> 00:08:34,600 uh, anyway, the endo microrisal fungi, 137 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:39,400 you'll also see them or hear them being referred to 138 00:08:39,980 --> 00:08:44,840 as am f and that just stands for our muscular micro 139 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:45,893 eel. Fungi. 140 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:50,160 You can also hear or see them being referred to as vam, 141 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:54,840 that's vesicular our muscular micro e micro eel fungi. 142 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:58,920 So they don't refer them anymore, 143 00:08:59,410 --> 00:09:01,320 refer to them anymore as the vam, 144 00:09:01,430 --> 00:09:06,080 because some species don't produce those vesicles. So yeah, 145 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,520 we're getting really detailed there on the endo microrisal fungi. 146 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:14,720 But it is important to understand that these hfe of these types 147 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,720 of fungi, they go inside the cell and then the nutrient exchange is happening, 148 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:24,600 happening, um, within the cytosolic fluid. Now, 149 00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:26,760 ectomic Isal fungi, on the other hand, 150 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:31,720 they don't associate with as broad of a host, 151 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:33,453 um, range. 152 00:09:34,220 --> 00:09:38,360 So they're associating with maybe five to 10% of plant species, 153 00:09:39,630 --> 00:09:43,360 primarily conifers, some hardwoods. 154 00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:49,160 And then there are some agriculturally important plants that, 155 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,040 uh, form the ectomic isal symbiosis. 156 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:57,000 So then if we go down to that cellular level again, 157 00:09:57,020 --> 00:09:59,840 and we compare it to the endo microrisal fungi, 158 00:10:00,580 --> 00:10:04,160 the ecto microrisal fungi also make specialized 159 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,000 structures. They do also penetrate into the root, 160 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:12,840 but they also make, um, a mantle. 161 00:10:13,140 --> 00:10:17,920 So mycelium will cover the outside of the root, kind of like a sock, right? 162 00:10:18,180 --> 00:10:20,040 Say your foot is like the root. 163 00:10:20,940 --> 00:10:23,920 So the mycelium covers the root on the outside, 164 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:28,120 and then it also penetrates inside the room. 165 00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:33,640 But instead of carrying out the nutrient exchange in 166 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:35,440 an individual plant cell, 167 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:41,080 the mycelium travels around the cells and they call that a 168 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:41,920 heartache net. 169 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:46,240 And so this is another more specialized structure that they make. 170 00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:51,690 They don't produce any type of arcus or vesicles. 171 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:54,650 Uh, so yeah, they're just, 172 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,010 they're doing all their nutrient exchange in between cells. 173 00:10:59,310 --> 00:11:03,810 And, uh, since we're talking primarily about canvas cultivation and, uh, 174 00:11:03,810 --> 00:11:06,770 the ecto is really only, uh, interacting with, 175 00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:10,890 I think you said like 10 or 15% of plants, we're probably gonna be talking, 176 00:11:10,890 --> 00:11:13,170 when we talk about mice today, we're, 177 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:17,090 we're going to be generally assuming we're talking about endo mice, 178 00:11:17,090 --> 00:11:18,730 unless you point out otherwise, right? 179 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:24,370 Yeah, that's correct. Uh, cannabis doesn't associate with ectomic fungi, 180 00:11:24,510 --> 00:11:24,860 so. 181 00:11:24,860 --> 00:11:28,250 Right on. Well, that makes it easier today, . So, so, okay. 182 00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:32,530 So that's why I wanted to start out there with the definitions of mycelium mice 183 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:37,090 and then, and then endo mice just for everybody's benefit. So with that said, 184 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:39,610 we will, we will, uh, jump back and talk, uh, 185 00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:43,370 much more in detail about mice during set two, but, but here, 186 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:47,810 let's smooth on in right now to talking about mycelium networks to, um, 187 00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:50,690 get a really good understanding on what those are. So, 188 00:11:51,070 --> 00:11:55,920 so mycelium are the fleshy vegetative white strands that 189 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,840 form massive networks in the soil. We now know what does it consist of? 190 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,320 Like, what, what actually do, do the white strands, 191 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,440 what are they made of other than just generally fungus and, 192 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,800 and how are they made? 193 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,920 Hmm, interesting. Um, well, 194 00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:16,520 fungal cell walls are made of chitin, 195 00:12:17,380 --> 00:12:19,920 so that's really what they're composed of. 196 00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:23,920 And they're made through myosis. I mean, you know, 197 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,080 they're growing just in the same way fresh, 198 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:28,600 fresh growth would occur from a plant, right? 199 00:12:29,180 --> 00:12:32,320 So they're really exploratory, like you said, 200 00:12:32,430 --> 00:12:37,200 most of them are more whiteish tannish in color. Um, 201 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,720 mycelium can consist of just one long tubular like structure, 202 00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:46,720 and they can also have septa, which, um, divides, 203 00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:51,880 divides this long tubular structure. Um. 204 00:12:54,140 --> 00:12:57,320 And, and for folks who aren't familiar with myosis, um, 205 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,920 would you just explain that real quick. 206 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,480 ? Sure. So I mean, that's a, it's reproduction, right? Mm-hmm. 207 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,600 , so we're basically having cell division occur. Um, 208 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:13,800 and then the DNA is being passed. There's a, there's, I mean, it's a pretty, uh, 209 00:13:13,870 --> 00:13:18,560 technical process and it also depends on the species, right? But. 210 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:22,040 Even, even what you already said just kind of makes it clear, uh, uh, uh, 211 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,960 what I was trying to getting at is like, what is the, what is the, 212 00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:29,280 the mycelium making machine? And the answer is itself is right by, 213 00:13:29,420 --> 00:13:32,680 by cellular splitting, just making itself more of itself. 214 00:13:33,090 --> 00:13:33,923 Right? Right. 215 00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:37,640 Right on. So for, for those of us who, you know, 216 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:41,680 are transplanting our plants, or maybe we're, um, out, uh, 217 00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:46,440 in the field collecting indigenous microorganisms or, um, or, 218 00:13:46,580 --> 00:13:47,960 or whatever we're doing, um, 219 00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:52,960 we will come across mycelium strands that are like a whole range of colors 220 00:13:52,990 --> 00:13:56,480 from like the bright white, which I always think of as ohs. 221 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,680 Those look really healthy. And whereas some are, you know, 222 00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:02,840 more of a whiteish gray or some are like a, a, 223 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,640 a whiteish beige are are, are these different, um, 224 00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:12,720 strains of mycelium that are these different colors? Or does, or does, you know, 225 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,760 a healthy thriving mycelium? 226 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:18,360 Is it always white and, 227 00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:22,560 and these colorations are signs of some kind of imbalance? 228 00:14:23,550 --> 00:14:27,160 Yeah, that's a really great question. Um, yeah, it, 229 00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:30,720 it is really species dependent. Um, you know, 230 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:32,880 morels for example, they, 231 00:14:32,990 --> 00:14:37,040 they don't have this bright white necessarily mycelium, 232 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,520 especially when you have a men culture. Um, so I would say, 233 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:42,800 you know, that, yeah, 234 00:14:44,170 --> 00:14:49,040 there may be some type of environmental condition that might make them this more 235 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:53,480 dull yellow, um, you know, maybe they're not the most healthy, 236 00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:58,600 but also we have a lot of different colors of mycelium depending 237 00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:59,433 on the species. 238 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:04,280 That's good to know too, because, um, I know, you know, as I said my question, 239 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,400 I thought that I needed it all to be bright and I should not judge my mycelium 240 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,240 necks were harshly just because they don't look bright. And cuz that could, 241 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:17,800 that could cause me to, uh, incorrectly diagnose this situation. Mm-hmm. 242 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:18,400 mm-hmm. 243 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,520 , mm-hmm. . So, um, if there are different, um, 244 00:15:21,950 --> 00:15:24,520 strains of mycelium, um, 245 00:15:25,060 --> 00:15:29,840 how do mycelium networks of different species interact? 246 00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:32,040 Do they, do they, you know, 247 00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:35,160 explore and then butt up to each other and then, 248 00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:39,520 and then connect even though they're different species? Or are these, 249 00:15:39,820 --> 00:15:44,040 are these mycelium networks of, of different strains, um, 250 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:49,400 uh, kind of wrapped around each other, but not necessarily connected? 251 00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:53,080 That's another really great question. Chango , 252 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,760 I'm glad you're full of 'em. . Uh, 253 00:15:56,140 --> 00:15:59,040 so I thi I would say that's really species dependent. 254 00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:04,240 We know in some microrisal fungi there is 255 00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:07,640 competition mm-hmm. . So, um, you know, 256 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,400 I know of one researcher that works on Rza Pogon that is an ectomic isel fungi. 257 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:17,320 Um, but they'll be more competitive for their resources. So, 258 00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:22,680 um, they don't necessarily, they may, you know, 259 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,200 they may just exist wrapped around each other, but really they're, 260 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,560 they're competing for resources. Um, so. 261 00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:33,280 So, so in that case, um, 262 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,200 I think that most of us think about the mycelium networks as being these, 263 00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:40,880 these nutrition transport networks, and they're connecting everybody. 264 00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:44,320 And you know, in my mind, I go so far as to think, oh, 265 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,880 they're trying to help everybody get along, 266 00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:50,320 but actually there is competition between my serial relationships. 267 00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:51,840 So they are, 268 00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:56,880 they are bonding with networks that they see as 269 00:16:57,140 --> 00:16:58,560 allies and then, 270 00:16:58,780 --> 00:17:03,480 and then turning a cold shoulder and not connecting to networks that they see 271 00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:04,413 as competitive. 272 00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:07,120 Yeah. You could think of it that way, 273 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:12,040 but one thing I do wanna just clarify is that, um, there are, 274 00:17:12,490 --> 00:17:13,360 there are other, 275 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:17,200 there's another group of fungi that we're kind of forgetting about a little bit. 276 00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:19,600 We're forgetting about our sap prophetic fungi. 277 00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:24,280 So they're not necessarily creating a network between plants, 278 00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:28,160 um, you know, amongst each other. 279 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:33,560 They're mycelium is really there to decay dead 280 00:17:33,670 --> 00:17:37,600 organic matter, and they're the recyclers, right? I mean, 281 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,680 they're recycling the duff. And so those, 282 00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:45,480 those are a little different in that they're creating their own little network 283 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:49,410 just so that they can eat more, right? So they can decay more, 284 00:17:49,410 --> 00:17:51,640 and then eventually maybe they can fruit. 285 00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:54,000 You know, I think you're, I think you're right. 286 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,720 That was good that you picked that up. I, 287 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,560 I definitely think that I was putting the responsibilities for mycelium 288 00:18:00,860 --> 00:18:03,960 and sacro prophetic fungus into the same basket. Yeah, 289 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,720 that's good for me to tease those apart too. So, so, um, so the, 290 00:18:08,860 --> 00:18:13,760 the mycelium networks, while I was picturing them being large, like, 291 00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:15,000 like in, uh, 292 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,000 covering a wide space and therefore had this idea that they were also 293 00:18:20,050 --> 00:18:24,000 going from plant to plant. I don't know exactly how I was picturing that, but, 294 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,240 um, but really, uh, 295 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,160 perhaps mycelium networks are a little bit more localized based on, 296 00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:33,440 um, I don't know, the project or their, 297 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:36,160 the responsibility of that particular mycelium network. 298 00:18:37,550 --> 00:18:40,680 Yeah, I like that. You can think of it almost like they're little project. 299 00:18:41,140 --> 00:18:43,800 Cuz even thinking outside of the sap, 300 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,880 prophetic fun fungi that are decaying this dead organic matter, 301 00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:49,920 we also have parasitic fungi, right? 302 00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:54,400 So we know that those could spread from, um, you know, they, 303 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,160 those could certainly make a network and go from tree to tree, 304 00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,640 but they could also be more localized just dependent on, 305 00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:05,560 is their host available? Um, what can they infect, right? 306 00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:06,930 Um, 307 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:11,600 where do they infect because we have other fungi that are primarily 308 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,640 existing on leaves that are causing damage there, right? Mm-hmm. 309 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,280 mm-hmm. . So, but yeah, 310 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,960 I think when we think about mycelium, 311 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:26,640 and one reason why I love micro isel fungi so much is that we really 312 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,640 think of them more as the protagonist. 313 00:19:29,540 --> 00:19:33,760 And we wanna think of mycelium as being this just incredible thing and this 314 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,240 network that spreads, you know, between the trees and, like you say, try to, 315 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,960 you know, help everybody get along and distribute out nutrients really well. Um, 316 00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:45,440 so I think when we think of my cial networks, 317 00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:50,440 we really do think about the more beneficial kind. And that would be more, 318 00:19:50,620 --> 00:19:53,160 you know, like the micro isel fungi mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 319 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,440 . Um, and if I tend to drift into giving, um, 320 00:19:56,540 --> 00:19:59,760 credit to mycelium that's for SRO prophetic fungus, be, 321 00:19:59,820 --> 00:20:01,320 be sure to call me out on it again, 322 00:20:01,350 --> 00:20:03,760 because I don't want to be spreading the bro science. We're, 323 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,080 we're here to get it. Right. So. 324 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,480 , I mean, but those are great too because, you know, I mean, 325 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,160 we would have just meters and meters of duff in our forests and, 326 00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:15,720 and there's also some very tasty s prophetic fungi, 327 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,600 so we don't wanna forget about those. 328 00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:22,440 For for sure. All right. So, so let's talk about some of these tasks that, um, 329 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:27,360 that we rely on mycelium, uh, to do. So. So, 330 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:30,920 um, why don't you just in instead of me, like, 331 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,720 just kind of like trying to pull a list out of the air, um, you're, 332 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,400 you're the expert. So, so, uh, 333 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,160 let me just kind of hand you the mic and tell us a little bit about the, 334 00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:43,760 the varied tasks that mycelium is doing, um, in the soil, 335 00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:46,280 um, you know, as part of its role. 336 00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:50,240 Sure, yeah. And I do just wanna say, you know, I'm, 337 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,520 I still don't consider myself an expert. I just consider myself, you know, 338 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,160 constantly, uh, trying to educate myself in the, 339 00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,640 in this pursuit of knowledge specifically with fungi. So, um, 340 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,920 I appreciate you saying that, but, uh, you know. 341 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:08,920 You can be humble, but like we, we all, we all heard your, 342 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,040 your credentials at the beginning of the show and, and you're here cuz like, 343 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,120 you know, you're kind of the expert. So, so I, 344 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,800 I appre I appreciate your humility on it, but, uh, 345 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,320 I have a feeling you have all the information that we're looking for. 346 00:21:19,670 --> 00:21:24,400 Well, I'll strive, I'll strive to meet those expectations. . Okay. 347 00:21:24,540 --> 00:21:28,640 So you wanna know about the roles of mycelium mm-hmm. 348 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,760 within the soil, please. Okay. So I think, 349 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,440 I think mycelium, you know, it's main objective, 350 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:38,400 and it may be more of a selfish objective on its part, 351 00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:43,480 is to gain enough resources to reproduce , 352 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,320 right? That's gonna be the main goal. It's like, I'm gonna explore the soil, 353 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:52,600 I'm going to try to gain resources enough to take care of myself. 354 00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:54,653 Um, 355 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:59,640 so I think that's one objective is that the mycelium 356 00:21:59,660 --> 00:22:02,520 is getting what it needs to, 357 00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:06,960 to go through its own life cycle. Mm-hmm. . Um, 358 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,920 I think another thing is just very exploratory. I think there's like, 359 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,840 let's say these side benefits of mycelium and what it's doing 360 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,560 within our soil. So for those mycelium to be, 361 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:27,480 um, exploring the soil, they're really contributing to soil structure, 362 00:22:28,860 --> 00:22:31,360 um, to water infiltration, 363 00:22:31,930 --> 00:22:36,640 which also helps preventing runoff and providing climate 364 00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:40,200 resistance. So I think there's, um, 365 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:43,680 there's a big role for them there. Um, 366 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:48,880 if I can go back to my micro isel fungi for a moment. Mm-hmm. , uh, 367 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,560 our slar micro isel fungi, 368 00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:55,320 they release a glycoprotein, it's called Guin. 369 00:22:56,140 --> 00:23:00,880 And that is just this incredible protein that helps 370 00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:03,280 to, um, aggregate soil. 371 00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:08,640 And that's really fascinating. Not only for this, 372 00:23:09,380 --> 00:23:14,000 um, you know, helping to keep soil structure and the water, water infiltration, 373 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:19,560 but it also can hold on to carbon when your 374 00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:21,880 soil has more structure to it, 375 00:23:22,540 --> 00:23:25,080 and then those nutrients are more available. 376 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:28,520 So I think that there's, um, 377 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,000 a really big role for mycelium to play in 378 00:23:34,030 --> 00:23:38,640 some of this, um, nutrient cycling, excuse me. 379 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:39,613 We also, 380 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:45,480 we also know that some mycelium will actually 381 00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:46,663 excrete, 382 00:23:47,150 --> 00:23:51,600 secrete enzymes and that can help make a lot of different 383 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,880 nutrients more biologically available ones that wouldn't be otherwise. 384 00:23:57,260 --> 00:23:59,120 And then it's, it allows, you know, 385 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,920 this soluble nutrients to actually be absorbed and then transported to the 386 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,840 plant. Um, so there's, 387 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,840 I think that these are some of, some of the main ones just right away that I'm, 388 00:24:14,310 --> 00:24:15,920 that I can think of. Um. 389 00:24:16,210 --> 00:24:20,560 Let's talk about the transportation of, uh, nutrition. So, uh, 390 00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:24,960 I'm realizing now that of some of what I imagined, 391 00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:27,200 um, mycelium networks doing, 392 00:24:27,610 --> 00:24:32,120 which would be like moving nutrition between different 393 00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:36,760 plants, that's probably a, a, uh, 394 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,760 a larger role than mycelium is doing. And that might be more of a, 395 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,320 a sap prophetic fungus, uh, role is, 396 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:48,600 is the mycelium going to be mostly, um, 397 00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:53,640 moving nutrition from the surrounding soil environment and just 398 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,040 bringing it back to, um, the, the root zone, um, 399 00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:03,840 as essentially to the Mike Rza, which is going to interact with the, 400 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,480 with the plant. Um, uh, so it's, it's kind of like, 401 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:13,200 it is, it is out searching for nutrition for its own, 402 00:25:14,140 --> 00:25:18,160 um, uh, life benefit. 403 00:25:18,940 --> 00:25:20,440 But then by doing that, 404 00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:25,280 it is also bringing that nutrition back to the micro rise, which is, 405 00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:28,360 which we will we'll discuss more in detail later, 406 00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:31,600 is then is then interacting with the plant. I is, 407 00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:36,040 is my range of where it's doing that nutrition work? 408 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:39,280 Do I have that right where it's a bit closer to the root zone? 409 00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:45,640 Yeah, so I think that the sap prophetic fungi and the Mike Reil fungi, 410 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:47,280 they're really working together. 411 00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:52,680 So the sap prophetic fungi that those fungi may be able to break down. 412 00:25:53,540 --> 00:25:58,440 Um, you know, specifically more carbon than the microrisal fungi. 413 00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:01,280 And as we know, microrisal fungi, they, 414 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,800 they're really associating with plants cuz they can't, 415 00:26:04,110 --> 00:26:08,440 they're not able to access the carbon on their own. That's, that's the exchange. 416 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:14,000 Um, I, I'll save this for the next session really. But, um, 417 00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:17,120 so let's say the sap prophetic fungi, 418 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:21,760 their primary role is gonna be decaying this dead organic matter, um, you know, 419 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,960 making carbon available for the plant, 420 00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:28,480 but then the fungi or the micro isal fungi, they're, 421 00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:33,520 they're more exploratory and they're actually able to deliver 422 00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:38,920 the nutrients to the plant through their symbiosis, right? Mm-hmm. 423 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,400 . So the sap prophetic fungi, 424 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,080 they may make some of these nutrients biologically available, 425 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:50,160 but they don't really have that delivery mechanism unless they're very close to 426 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:51,320 the plant root zone. 427 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:56,760 So the micro isel fungi and their meial network is really incredible 428 00:26:56,870 --> 00:27:00,520 because they can increase the root, um, 429 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:06,120 absorption zone. Like our plants can only reach so far mm-hmm. , 430 00:27:06,220 --> 00:27:09,240 um, mycelium is so much smaller, uh, 431 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,760 in size than a plant root. Right. 432 00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:16,320 And then they can travel for so much longer than our plant roots can. 433 00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:20,320 So they can really become exploratory in the soil, 434 00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:26,230 uh, trait areas that our plants cannot, 435 00:27:27,050 --> 00:27:30,110 and then they're able to access nutrients that the plant isn't, 436 00:27:30,170 --> 00:27:34,670 and then their mycelium is like a little highway mm-hmm. , um, 437 00:27:34,690 --> 00:27:38,590 of nutrients going to the plant. Um, 438 00:27:38,670 --> 00:27:42,230 I do also wanna mention, which I just think is interesting, 439 00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:46,070 that micro isel fungi, um, you know, 440 00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:49,870 there's evidence to suggest that they've evolved from sap prophetic fungi. 441 00:27:50,650 --> 00:27:55,150 So some microrisal fungi still do hold the genes 442 00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:00,550 that can do these other types of breakdown of nutrients. 443 00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:03,950 Um, so I just think that's really interesting because 444 00:28:05,540 --> 00:28:08,350 some microrisal fungi we say are obligate, 445 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:12,350 they have to have a plant hose cuz they can't access their own carbon. 446 00:28:13,130 --> 00:28:18,030 But then we know some microrisal fungi are not obligate 447 00:28:18,650 --> 00:28:20,510 and they can, they still maintain some, 448 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:25,150 some of these genes so that they can exist without the plant host. Mm-hmm. 449 00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:26,023 . 450 00:28:26,850 --> 00:28:31,710 So, so, um, you know, we're big supporters of the soil of the soil food, 451 00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:34,110 web ex explanation for looking at soil here. 452 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:39,030 What role does mycelium play in the soil assisting 453 00:28:39,660 --> 00:28:43,550 microbe communities and, and other life in the soil? Because I'm, 454 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:48,590 I'm guessing that it isn't just a relationship between, you know, uh, 455 00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:52,750 uh, breaking down nutrition and transporting nutrition towards the root zone. 456 00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:57,830 Um, I'm, I'm guessing that, that all the inhabitants of the, um, 457 00:28:58,060 --> 00:29:02,430 rhizosphere have got varying relationships with mycelium that are beneficial. 458 00:29:03,370 --> 00:29:07,350 Mm-hmm. . Yeah, certainly. Well, we did talk, you know, 459 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,870 briefly about soil structure mm-hmm. 460 00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:15,550 and water infiltration. Right. And this hyphy, um, 461 00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:21,430 you know, going through the soil and allowing that 462 00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:26,470 infiltration of water and then just helping the soil actually hold the water. 463 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,393 Right. 464 00:29:27,730 --> 00:29:32,470 And then we did speak a little bit about how when you have 465 00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:37,710 this really more positive, let's say soil structure, 466 00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:41,560 it can hold on, um, to carbon more readily. 467 00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:45,200 And so we know that, um, 468 00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:48,640 our soil organic carbon is food for microbes, right? 469 00:29:48,860 --> 00:29:51,120 So if you have an increased amount of soil carbon, 470 00:29:51,780 --> 00:29:55,560 you typically see an increase in, in the microbial activity. 471 00:29:56,900 --> 00:30:01,520 So I think mycelium plays , it's like cyclical, right? Mm-hmm. 472 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,680 . So they grow and they explore and then carbon's held onto, 473 00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:09,200 and then these microbes are like, oh, this is awesome. You know, I'm gonna, 474 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:13,280 we're going to, there's gonna be more microbes cuz we have more food. And, 475 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:18,720 and then they thrive. And then the soil just becomes, um, just more, 476 00:30:18,910 --> 00:30:20,560 it's just more and more healthy, right? 477 00:30:20,890 --> 00:30:24,240 Right. Every, everybody gets fed when mycelium is doing its job. 478 00:30:24,850 --> 00:30:26,200 Right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 479 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,440 . Um, 480 00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:32,720 so I know that some people talk about how mycelium can help remediate 481 00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:36,600 the soil that's been contaminated by a whole range of things. 482 00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:41,920 But specifically, uh, I'm curious about, um, uh, uh, uh, 483 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,360 pathogenic fungus like that, that, that cause like, you know, um, 484 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,720 fusarium root rot and things like that can, 485 00:30:48,940 --> 00:30:53,760 can our ally mycelium clean up pathogens like 486 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:54,800 that in the soil? 487 00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:59,880 Yeah, that is such a great question. Um, you know, 488 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,960 I told you I really like the protagonist fungi. So my , 489 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:05,960 my plant pathology ISN isn't as up to speed, 490 00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:10,120 but it just made me think of, um, you know, there's, 491 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,760 there are products out there that are, they're, well, 492 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,640 those are more bacterial that are kind of fighting the fungi. Mm-hmm. 493 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,960 , I'm trying to think of these, this, um, activi, you know, 494 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,240 that's a product that, um, 495 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:28,680 but it's bacterial and that's fighting off the fungi. I don't know. 496 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,840 I think that's such a good question. But I do remember this one little project, 497 00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:34,080 uh, 498 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,440 I did when I was living in Hawaii with a friend and he was really into IMO four 499 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,000 s mm-hmm. . And, um, you know, 500 00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:43,000 his knowledge is so much greater than mine, 501 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,160 so I'm not gonna try to explain anything like that. 502 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:50,360 But we were traveling around to these coffee plantations that had this, 503 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:55,400 um, pathogenic fungi that occurred on the coffee leaf, 504 00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:59,760 and we made a solution of the immo four. 505 00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:04,920 And it's hard to say exactly which component maybe was fighting, but we, 506 00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:09,840 we just sprayed this on the coffee, um, you know, 507 00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:14,040 trees that had this fungal infection and came back and scored it. 508 00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:16,400 And the ones that we scored, 509 00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:20,600 there was a significant impact and reduction of that fungal infection. 510 00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:25,840 Now we know Immo four s don't just contain fungi, right? So, 511 00:32:26,820 --> 00:32:31,280 um, you know, it was a fun little project, but still kind of hard to say. 512 00:32:31,340 --> 00:32:34,920 And I'm not really sure of the research on that. 513 00:32:35,070 --> 00:32:37,200 Yeah, that's that's fair enough. And, and I, 514 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,240 I think that that your answer points to two things, number one, 515 00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:45,520 for folks who are interested in, in, well cannabis, but, but, 516 00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:50,520 uh, fungal networks in general, um, and are just kind of coming up. Um, 517 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,400 you know, and, and, 518 00:32:51,420 --> 00:32:56,400 and through university there is a lot of research around cannabis and soil 519 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,480 science and fungus to be had, you know, this is, 520 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,680 this is a great time to be become, you know, 521 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,960 have an interest in cannabis and become and becoming out of school. And then, 522 00:33:05,980 --> 00:33:09,560 and then the second thing that your answer points out is, um, you know, 523 00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:13,240 we're always talking about the power of, of, of indu in industrial, 524 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:17,840 indigenous microorganisms here mm-hmm. , and Im oh four, uh, 525 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,560 you know, while it has got a significant representation of fungus in it, 526 00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:25,440 it's this magical combination of nature that just, 527 00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:30,400 just rebalances things like in, in your example. And, uh, and you know, 528 00:33:30,940 --> 00:33:34,520 so many of us, uh, container based cannabis growers, um, 529 00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:36,800 we struggle with with fusarium. 530 00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:41,640 So anytime I talk to somebody who focuses their work on, on the root zone, 531 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,920 I kind of ask everybody, Hey, do you have a good solution for fusarium? Mm-hmm. 532 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,640 . And, and, and, you know, everybody kind of says the same thing. 533 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,720 Like, like, like, you know, 534 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,520 the research hasn't actually found a really good one yet. 535 00:33:52,540 --> 00:33:55,600 And generally you should just replace your soil. But, 536 00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:58,880 but this is the first time that Im o four has been brought up. And, 537 00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:01,760 and that makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting if, if, 538 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,280 if somebody were to have, you know, say say like, like an installed, 539 00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:07,490 you know, 540 00:34:07,490 --> 00:34:12,320 large scale bed where it would be a real pain in the 541 00:34:12,350 --> 00:34:16,320 butt to replace the soil unlike, you know, like a 20 gallon pot or something, 542 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,360 which is really easy mm-hmm. , um, you know, doing a, 543 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,400 doing a significant application of Im O four might be one, 544 00:34:23,410 --> 00:34:26,440 might be one fusarium solution. So, alright, well, 545 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,040 I don't wanna get too distracted off on the fusarium thing, but, but while we, 546 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,280 while we're there, um, you know, I figured we might as well hit it. So, 547 00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:35,280 so alright, great. So, um, so, 548 00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:39,800 so now that we are understanding what the Mycelium networks are doing and that 549 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,400 they are, are breaking down nutrition and bringing it back to the, 550 00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:47,640 the rhizosphere, where, where, um, I guess I'll say for the moment, 551 00:34:47,660 --> 00:34:52,400 it gets handed off to Mike Rza that does the exchange with the plant that we 552 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:53,600 will pick up on set two. 553 00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:56,960 So let's go ahead and take our first short break and then when we come back, 554 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,720 we will start talking about Mike Rza. 555 00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:02,600 You are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Mycologist 556 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,720 Stephanie Garcia. And, you know, 557 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:07,400 without these advertisers shaping fire would not happen. 558 00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:11,320 So please support them and let them know you heard of them on Shaping Fire. 559 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:19,520 One of the reasons why no-till cannabis growing is so valued by farmers is 560 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,600 because the mycelium networks in the soil remain established from year to year. 561 00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:28,120 And we know these fungal networks are essential because they're the nutrient 562 00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:32,600 superhighways that extend far and wide in the substrate to feed your plants. 563 00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:38,000 The trouble with growing in new living soils or blended cocoa substrates is that 564 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,520 it takes most of the plant's life just to create these mycelium highways, 565 00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:44,600 dmic, endo, 566 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,360 microrisal fungi inoculate reduces that time and gets your plant eating a wider 567 00:35:49,490 --> 00:35:50,960 array of nutrients faster. 568 00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:55,960 And it's three times the concentration of the other popular brand in the US at 569 00:35:55,990 --> 00:36:00,920 900 propag program of two fungal species selected specifically for 570 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,080 cannabis cultivation. 571 00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:07,320 Dmic is the result of 30 years of research and trials at the vCAN Agricultural 572 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Research Institute in Israel. 573 00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:13,320 It has also been vigorously trialed by cannabis and food growers across the us. 574 00:36:14,350 --> 00:36:18,640 Dyna Myco is now available at Grow Shops and on Amazon in the United States. 575 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,200 I love using Dynam Myco to both speed up the growth of the mycelium networks in 576 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,480 the soil, but also as a bio stimulant to make clone cuttings more veil. 577 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:31,640 You can see side-by-side showing the comparative growth on their Instagram at 578 00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:32,680 Dyna Myco. 579 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:37,280 If you demand reliable growing results and appreciate the importance of an 580 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,360 active root zone in creating a thriving plant, 581 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,680 I encourage you to check out dino myco.com and use the store locator to find out 582 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,880 where you can get yours. 583 00:36:46,340 --> 00:36:51,000 That's d y N O m Y c o.com 584 00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:52,400 shaping. 585 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,160 Fire listeners can get 10% off any size of dynami on Amazon or 586 00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:01,240 dynami.com by using the discount code shaping fire, 587 00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:05,880 one word no caps. 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You are listening to Shaping Fire. 653 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,940 I'm your host Shangle Los, and my guest today is Mycologist Stephanie Garcia. 654 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,460 So, um, during the first set, 655 00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:30,420 we learned all about mycelium and that it is also not sap prophetic fungus 656 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,360 and all of the wonderful things that mycelium do. Um, first for itself, 657 00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:40,120 then for the plant, but then also for everybody else who hangs out in the, 658 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:41,040 in the root zone. 659 00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:46,480 So now we're gonna talk specifically about the symbiotic relationship between, 660 00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:52,160 um, mycelium networks and plants that are expressed through, 661 00:41:52,460 --> 00:41:57,360 uh, through mica. So, so we touched on Mica a bit at the, 662 00:41:57,420 --> 00:41:59,160 at the beginning of the first set to, 663 00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:03,880 to separate Endo Micro and Ectomic, um, 664 00:42:03,890 --> 00:42:08,400 based on how they, um, um, interact differently with, 665 00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:11,920 with the, with the root zone, with the roots themselves. Um, 666 00:42:13,090 --> 00:42:15,840 let's start with how does, um, 667 00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:20,760 Mike Rza colonize the plant root system 668 00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:24,600 of cannabis? From, from what I understand, y you know, 669 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,000 there is a point when a, when a plant is, I don't know, 670 00:42:29,220 --> 00:42:32,000 new or young where, um, it, 671 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,960 it is not com it is not fully colonized by Mike Rise, 672 00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:42,040 uh, um, by B by Fungus. That is, 673 00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:46,760 is is boy, it's hard to talk about it once, once Mike Raza is not a noun. 674 00:42:47,350 --> 00:42:50,480 Once it's a description of a symbiotic relationship. It's a lot, 675 00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:55,680 it's a different way to talk about it. So, so how does, 676 00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:00,120 how do you talk about it, Stephanie? I didn't realize , like, like, 677 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,600 like how do you talk about it in the, in, in, in, as, 678 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,560 as a professional who talks about this all day? 679 00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:07,520 Yeah, I mean, I guess you could, you know, 680 00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:11,920 instead of maybe just focusing on the mica or mic, you know, 681 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,840 Mike Fungi, you can say the Mike Hy or the Fungal Hyphy, 682 00:43:16,980 --> 00:43:17,480 you know. 683 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,160 I see. So using the word mica as a, as a, as a description of, 684 00:43:22,620 --> 00:43:27,360 of, of, of the, the type of fungus. So, so it'd be appropriate to say, 685 00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:29,520 um, you know, Stephanie, uh, 686 00:43:29,530 --> 00:43:34,480 would you explain to us how mic rza funk colonized the 687 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,880 plant root system of cannabis? 688 00:43:37,070 --> 00:43:38,520 Yeah, yeah. All right. I'll. 689 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,800 Take, I'll take, I'll take that, absolutely. 690 00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:44,480 And we'll go with that. . Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, sure. So, 691 00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,960 so when we think about the beginning of the 692 00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:55,200 symbiosis, we first wanna ask ourselves, how is this high fq growing? 693 00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:58,480 Where is this coming from? Right? Um, 694 00:43:59,780 --> 00:44:02,240 so now in nature, 695 00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:07,960 hyphy is the greatest, let's say, propag that we have. 696 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:12,320 And so when we say Propag, we're talking about, um, 697 00:44:13,340 --> 00:44:17,880 if we think about cannabis, a propag for cannabis, is it seed, right? Mm-hmm. 698 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,800 . Uh, when we think about fungi, 699 00:44:20,090 --> 00:44:22,960 there can be a few different types of propag, 700 00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,760 and specifically our vascular micro isel fungi. 701 00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:28,960 So in nature, 702 00:44:29,450 --> 00:44:33,600 hyphy or mycelium is the greatest propag in nature. 703 00:44:34,660 --> 00:44:39,320 So we can start with, um, we can start with fragments of mycelium. 704 00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:41,280 We can start with spores. 705 00:44:41,340 --> 00:44:44,440 That's another thing that would be considered a propag, right? 706 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,200 We're trying to propagate this, um, 707 00:44:47,630 --> 00:44:52,480 life form and however it propagates it should be able 708 00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:55,760 to then become an adult or, you know, 709 00:44:55,900 --> 00:44:59,560 go past this vegetative stage. So we've got, um, 710 00:44:59,730 --> 00:45:02,520 we've covered the mycelium, the spore, 711 00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:07,960 and then our vascular mirial fungi are interesting in that pieces of 712 00:45:08,350 --> 00:45:08,740 root, 713 00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:13,680 or we can call root fragments that previously contained or were 714 00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:18,720 colonized by the ar micro isel fungi can 715 00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:20,480 also act as a propag. 716 00:45:21,380 --> 00:45:25,720 So some of these structures that are inside the root, like hfe, 717 00:45:28,110 --> 00:45:31,970 uh, they're produced within the root. Uh, those can also act as propag. 718 00:45:33,070 --> 00:45:35,490 So if you were, um, 719 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,890 incorporating some microrisal, uh, 720 00:45:39,090 --> 00:45:42,570 inoculum into your gross system, 721 00:45:43,230 --> 00:45:47,810 you're gonna have some of these propag you put, right? Mm-hmm. , 722 00:45:47,810 --> 00:45:52,730 and you're probably going off this label recommendation. Uh, 723 00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:53,810 to my understanding, 724 00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:57,810 there aren't any products currently in the US that 725 00:45:58,980 --> 00:46:02,530 claim, uh, mycelium as a propag. 726 00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:07,330 And I think that has something to do more with shelf life, um, 727 00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:12,210 possibly with how you quantify it, you know, how it can be regulated, 728 00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:17,050 things like that. So, um, primarily if you were to like, 729 00:46:17,060 --> 00:46:20,570 let's say get some microrisal inoculum and look at it under the microscope, 730 00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:25,690 you're gonna see spores and you'll probably see pieces of root. 731 00:46:26,990 --> 00:46:31,290 So you're gonna start with that, right? And then from that, 732 00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:35,970 the mycelium will grow, um, that's gonna be growing, 733 00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:40,970 you know, within your soil. There's a lot of research about, 734 00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:42,503 you know, 735 00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:47,650 the signaling that goes on for these fungi and how 736 00:46:47,650 --> 00:46:51,650 did they actually connect with the plant root, right? Um, 737 00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:56,970 that's really fascinating stuff because way back when it was 738 00:46:56,990 --> 00:47:01,970 really understood or thought, you know, believed that, um, 739 00:47:02,230 --> 00:47:05,250 the plant regulated the symbiosis. 740 00:47:05,950 --> 00:47:09,690 So we know that plants release through exudates. 741 00:47:10,830 --> 00:47:15,130 Um, we know that there's a lot of other types of biochemical signaling going on, 742 00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:20,290 but now some of the people researching this signaling 743 00:47:20,990 --> 00:47:25,490 are realizing that it's a, it's a lot more complex than we thought initially. 744 00:47:26,350 --> 00:47:30,800 And that potentially the fungi has a little bit more say in how it connects. 745 00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,640 Mm-hmm. , I used to think of it like, you know, 746 00:47:35,140 --> 00:47:37,880 the plant is there, the fungus approaches, 747 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,160 like it's trying to get into a party and the plant's like, okay, 748 00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:46,800 you know, you can bring in nutrients, you could bring in beverages for me, or, 749 00:47:46,820 --> 00:47:47,960 you know, whatever it is. Yeah. 750 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,640 That's how I was taught too. Yeah, absolutely. 751 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,040 Right? Like, come on in. Um, 752 00:47:52,060 --> 00:47:55,840 and why would the plant not want to accept that? 753 00:47:55,870 --> 00:47:58,360 It's almost like an insurance policy for the plant, 754 00:47:58,470 --> 00:48:03,160 that it's gonna be getting enough nutrients and, um, you know, 755 00:48:03,250 --> 00:48:07,360 water and things like this. But now there's some, you know, 756 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,600 research going on to say that there's, um, 757 00:48:10,030 --> 00:48:14,880 it's a lot more complex communication between the fungi and the plant. 758 00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:19,840 Um, but we do know that root exudates are released. 759 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,960 I think we're still really trying to understand root exudates. 760 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,440 I know currently there's about a hundred thousand compounds that have been 761 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,160 identified, um, you know, that roots are putting out there, 762 00:48:32,340 --> 00:48:37,280 but we know that they play a role in the germination of spores. 763 00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:42,880 Um, and then for that ultimate connection, right? 764 00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:46,360 Mm-hmm. . So yeah, once the, 765 00:48:46,750 --> 00:48:50,000 once the mycelium approaches the root, 766 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,720 there's a very complex conversation that occurs and then, 767 00:48:54,860 --> 00:48:59,160 um, ultimately they're able to penetrate into, into the root system, 768 00:49:00,380 --> 00:49:02,360 and then they continue to grow. 769 00:49:02,620 --> 00:49:05,760 And it's actually a physical penetration. It, it's, 770 00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:09,560 that's not just like symbolic. It actually, you know, 771 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,160 because of the size relationship, uh, 772 00:49:12,740 --> 00:49:17,120 the mycelium strands can actually enter 773 00:49:17,580 --> 00:49:20,360 the root itself, not just the root zone. 774 00:49:21,140 --> 00:49:22,520 Yep. That is correct. 775 00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:26,760 And it was even just today we were looking for these, uh, 776 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,480 special structures that they make when they penetrate apo, 777 00:49:32,220 --> 00:49:36,440 and it's a just small piece of tissue and it anchors 778 00:49:37,140 --> 00:49:41,280 the mycelium to the root. It's a, but yep, it, 779 00:49:41,380 --> 00:49:45,760 it completely penetrates that and just continues to, 780 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:47,593 to explore. 781 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,820 You know, this idea of, of, uh, these, 782 00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:55,020 these endo micro iza expending some part of their life, um, 783 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,700 inside the plant root. Um, totally reminds me of the, 784 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,100 of the bacterial rise aphagia cycle that we discussed in detail with, uh, 785 00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:09,020 Jeff Lowenfels back on shaping fire 96. Um, you know, are, are, 786 00:50:09,020 --> 00:50:12,460 are, are, are these two, I don't know, 787 00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:15,020 areas of science related in science at all, 788 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,340 or is it just in my head because they're just two different things that enter 789 00:50:19,340 --> 00:50:20,700 the plant for part of their life? 790 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,740 You know, I think everything's connected in, you know, in ways like that. 791 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,520 And I know that there's a lot of research on now what their, uh, 792 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,600 I don't know if this is really a term that's been coined, 793 00:50:32,660 --> 00:50:36,400 but micro iza helper bacteria. Mm-hmm. Um, 794 00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:41,480 so I think things are definitely working synergistically. And, um, 795 00:50:41,780 --> 00:50:44,280 so yeah, I think that that's a fair comparison. Right on. 796 00:50:44,580 --> 00:50:47,720 So let's talk about one of the, one of the, the, 797 00:50:47,780 --> 00:50:51,720 the roles that the micro ISE play, uh, in this, 798 00:50:51,740 --> 00:50:55,160 in this relationship with the plant. Um, uh, 799 00:50:55,340 --> 00:50:56,880 the first one that I ever learned about, 800 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,560 and I I'm certainly not suggesting I I know a lot about it, is, is the, 801 00:51:00,580 --> 00:51:05,000 the sugar water for the sugar and water for minerals exchange. 802 00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:10,360 Um, and would you wa walk us through that, that like cornerstone process? 803 00:51:11,230 --> 00:51:16,040 Yeah, sure. So that, that really is at the heart of this exchange, 804 00:51:16,060 --> 00:51:17,600 at the heart of this symbiosis. 805 00:51:17,780 --> 00:51:22,360 So we talked a little bit in the earlier segment about, um, 806 00:51:23,580 --> 00:51:25,600 how micro isel fungi, 807 00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:30,480 they are reliant on the plant host for their carbon. 808 00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:35,440 And that's all coming through photosynthetic through that photosynthetic 809 00:51:35,470 --> 00:51:40,360 process. And, um, so that's really what the fungus wants from the plant. 810 00:51:41,020 --> 00:51:46,000 Uh, we know that some fungi can exist, some of the micro isel fungi can exist, 811 00:51:47,180 --> 00:51:49,200 um, without the plant host, 812 00:51:49,740 --> 00:51:54,680 but primarily most of these species are dependent on their 813 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:59,160 carbon acquisition through photos, syn, photosynth, invades, mm-hmm. 814 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,720 . Um, so that's really what they're after. 815 00:52:02,740 --> 00:52:07,560 And the plant is willing to engage in this relationship 816 00:52:07,830 --> 00:52:11,200 because they know and, you know, 817 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:16,200 they somehow know that, uh, the fungi is able to deliver different, 818 00:52:16,340 --> 00:52:21,040 and it's not just the, you know, more minerals or micronutrients, 819 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,000 but even macronutrients, right? Mm-hmm. . So, um, they, 820 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:25,833 they know that the, 821 00:52:26,020 --> 00:52:30,160 if they allow this relationship to occur that they're also going to benefit in 822 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,160 this other way, um, that maybe they wouldn't be able to, 823 00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:36,720 to do as well on their own. 824 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:44,240 I, I guess when somebody shows up with all of these, you know, quality inputs, 825 00:52:44,420 --> 00:52:46,880 you, you're all, you get used to it, right? . 826 00:52:47,330 --> 00:52:50,520 Right? Yeah. And why would you not, why would you say no? It's like mm-hmm. 827 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,680 . Yeah, let's go . 828 00:52:52,660 --> 00:52:54,680 So, um, Ken does, 829 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,280 does micro rza have the ability to live in the soil 830 00:52:59,830 --> 00:53:04,480 without a root or something of some, a root or other, 831 00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:09,360 uh, in order to do this, uh, symbiotic exchange? Like, you know, 832 00:53:09,540 --> 00:53:12,200 it might not be cannabis, but perhaps it's, you know, you know, 833 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:13,880 a dandelion or something else. 834 00:53:14,460 --> 00:53:18,120 But can the microrisal fungus 835 00:53:19,070 --> 00:53:20,920 survive without a root? 836 00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:24,560 Um, there are many 837 00:53:26,270 --> 00:53:30,280 species that are obligate micro isol fungi, 838 00:53:30,420 --> 00:53:35,120 so they have to have a plant host to carry out their life cycle. Now, 839 00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:41,360 if they didn't have access to a plant, couldn't they go dormant? Certainly. 840 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,720 I see. That's what we have. Um, how long would that last? I'm not sure. 841 00:53:46,780 --> 00:53:50,800 Um, but yeah, we know that there are many fungi, 842 00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:55,360 many Mike Grisel fungi that they just simply cannot carry out their lifecycle 843 00:53:56,030 --> 00:54:00,840 without their plant host. So they're gonna need that root system. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 844 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:01,710 . 845 00:54:01,710 --> 00:54:05,440 When while preparing and doing my background research for the episode, 846 00:54:05,580 --> 00:54:09,800 it was really interesting to read. Um, all the different, 847 00:54:10,070 --> 00:54:10,960 I'll just throw 'em, I guess, 848 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,840 in a big basket of processes that Mike Rizal fungi, 849 00:54:16,260 --> 00:54:20,080 um, are able to do. Like, you know, at, at, you know, 850 00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:23,920 that cornerstone sugar waters for mineral exchange. 851 00:54:24,260 --> 00:54:29,080 I'm kind of like picturing this, this micro rise in the middle, 852 00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:33,880 like, you know, kind at acting like a, like a bartering agent, you know? Mm-hmm. 853 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,480 Going, Hey, you got those there, you got those here, I'll give those here. Okay. 854 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,920 All right. Go. You know? Mm-hmm. kinda like, kinda like, you know, 855 00:54:39,350 --> 00:54:42,440 directing traffic almost. Right? Right. And, but then, 856 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,600 but then as you continue to read, it's like, oh, also Mike Rza can, 857 00:54:46,860 --> 00:54:51,240 can do this chemical, uh, transition and then also if it finds this, 858 00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:54,920 it can do this. And like the, the more I read, I'm like it, 859 00:54:55,670 --> 00:55:00,320 Mike Rza has got this whole toolbox of, 860 00:55:00,660 --> 00:55:01,493 of, 861 00:55:01,620 --> 00:55:06,480 of biological transitions and trades, I guess, 862 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:11,000 that it can do to make sure that the signals 863 00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:13,120 and the nutrition and, 864 00:55:13,660 --> 00:55:18,280 and the water and everything is all being transferred back and forth. 865 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,080 And I gotta tell you that, that it, 866 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,840 it kind of makes them pretty badass because they're essentially making their own 867 00:55:23,850 --> 00:55:26,400 tools, right? There's all these different things that they can do. 868 00:55:27,090 --> 00:55:31,840 Would you explain some of the ways that micro rza defends 869 00:55:31,980 --> 00:55:36,840 the cannabis plant itself from like disease and pathogens 870 00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:39,960 and, and other things that might do the plant harm? 871 00:55:41,230 --> 00:55:45,040 Yeah. Yeah. It really is fascinating when you, when you think about 'em, 872 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,280 and it's one reason I just think the kingdom fungi is so incredible and why we 873 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,240 do need more people to step into the field, right? 874 00:55:52,820 --> 00:55:55,320 And how it also, like when you start reading it, 875 00:55:55,340 --> 00:55:58,760 it really does start to read like it's intelligent, you know? Mm-hmm. 876 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,920 , like, it really like, like it's really amazing, 877 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,360 especially when you like see like a TikTok or something that shows fungus, 878 00:56:04,510 --> 00:56:09,040 like beating puzzles and stuff. And it's not like, damn, you know? So anyway, 879 00:56:09,260 --> 00:56:10,400 uh, plea please. How, how, 880 00:56:10,460 --> 00:56:14,760 how does the mic Eliza actually defend the cannabis plants from diseases and 881 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,000 pathogens by using these various methods? It has? 882 00:56:18,790 --> 00:56:22,280 Yeah. Yeah, there's a few things that come to mind right away. I mean, 883 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,280 I would say that overall, if you have a plant that's receiving, 884 00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:30,000 you know, more water, um, 885 00:56:30,030 --> 00:56:34,320 more nutrients than the plant's able to acquire on its own, 886 00:56:34,780 --> 00:56:38,960 you're the plant health overall is just going to be better, right? Mm-hmm. 887 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,920 . So you're just gonna have a more robust plant, um, 888 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,560 a plant that's maybe more resistant to an infection. Um, 889 00:56:47,940 --> 00:56:48,840 things like that. 890 00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:53,000 So that's one thing that just comes to mind right away is that if your plant 891 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,840 overall is more healthy, 892 00:56:55,350 --> 00:56:58,960 then it's going to be able to fight off different things that might come its 893 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,480 way. Um, one thing that is, um, 894 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:08,280 pretty well researched is tolerant to not only 895 00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:12,800 things like saline soils, but also, um, 896 00:57:13,050 --> 00:57:17,320 heavy metals. So if for some reason, um, 897 00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:22,000 that is happening for you, um, the fun, 898 00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:22,830 the fungi, 899 00:57:22,830 --> 00:57:27,720 they can actually mitigate how that is delivered 900 00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:31,600 to the plant and essentially hold it within its mycelium. 901 00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:33,480 So I think, so. 902 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:38,440 Like, so like pockets it away so that away from the mechanics 903 00:57:38,580 --> 00:57:42,480 of the plant mm-hmm. so that the plant is shielded from it. 904 00:57:42,990 --> 00:57:45,640 Yeah. Wow. And I think, and it's interesting, I mean, 905 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,360 outside of cannabis growing or, um, you know, things like that, 906 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:54,320 there's a lot of saline soils and, you know, in our world. So, um, 907 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,440 that's pretty fascinating. Uh, 908 00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,560 we've done some experiments where we we're just straight feeding and plant salt 909 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,000 water mm-hmm. and the, you know, 910 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:08,000 micro isel colonized plants are just, they just look so good. 911 00:58:08,620 --> 00:58:12,880 And so we haven't done too much on the heavy metals, but there's, 912 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,800 there's quite a bit of research on heavy metal uptake and mitigation of those 913 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,160 heavy metals. Um, 914 00:58:19,740 --> 00:58:24,600 so I think that that's really an interesting aspect and things that they 915 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:25,760 can do for your plants. 916 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:32,560 I know that there's other research on prevention of infection, um, 917 00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:34,560 and I, 918 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:39,280 I don't know if that's just due to an increase in overall plant health or if 919 00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:44,160 there's some other mechanism behind that that we don't fully understand yet. 920 00:58:44,810 --> 00:58:49,640 Right on. So, um, looking at the next question I have for you, 921 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,640 I have a feeling that this is going to be, uh, one that you say, ah, 922 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,720 [inaudible] that's for Safra Prophetic Fungus, but, uh, 923 00:58:56,740 --> 00:58:59,800 I'm gonna go ahead and ask you anyway because I'm super curious of the answer 924 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,840 even if it is Safra prophetic. So, so, so I was gonna ask you that, you know, 925 00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,760 cannabis cultivators love ground cover and companion plants for lots of reasons. 926 00:59:09,380 --> 00:59:11,240 One being that, you know, 927 00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:15,680 the plants can all talk to each other and trade nutrients and, you know, 928 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,160 create pest defense. And then I was gonna say, 929 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,160 would you explain how mycelium, you know, 930 00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:27,360 processes a signaling system? But that's probably not mycelium in retrospect, 931 00:59:27,380 --> 00:59:28,213 is it? 932 00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:29,760 Um, 933 00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,200 I guess I'm having a hard time understanding on the signaling system between the 934 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:34,470 plants. 935 00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:36,840 Yeah. I'll give you an example. Like, like, like we, 936 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,280 we hear about when groups of plants, 937 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:43,080 even if they're different varieties are planted together, um, uh, uh, 938 00:59:43,420 --> 00:59:47,120 you know, that an aphids will attack one, uh, 939 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:51,640 the plants will signal to the other local plants that it's getting chomped on by 940 00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:52,340 aphids. 941 00:59:52,340 --> 00:59:57,200 So the individual plants can use whatever its strategy is to not get aphids. 942 00:59:57,740 --> 01:00:02,320 Oh, sure, sure. Um, yeah, I don't really know about that. 943 01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:06,560 I wouldn't necessarily give all this a prophetic fungi credit for that, uh, 944 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:07,040 right. 945 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:08,960 On. But it definitely tells me that like, you know, 946 01:00:09,130 --> 01:00:12,520 since you study Mike Rza and you don't know this particular thing, that, 947 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,080 that I definitely have put this activity in the wrong bucket. 948 01:00:15,670 --> 01:00:20,600 Well, I know that there is some signaling of infection from 949 01:00:20,830 --> 01:00:25,160 tree to tree that are colonized, you know, by fungi into, you know, 950 01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,680 increased defenses or transfer nutrients over here. 951 01:00:28,940 --> 01:00:30,560 Cuz now this plant is infected. 952 01:00:30,740 --> 01:00:33,960 So I know that there's communication in that way. Um, 953 01:00:34,020 --> 01:00:37,960 so I wouldn't put it past that. I just don't know if I could speak to that. 954 01:00:38,190 --> 01:00:42,760 Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Um, so, um, let's see here. 955 01:00:44,220 --> 01:00:45,880 So the, the more we talk today, 956 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,560 the more I get this sense that mycelium is more about 957 01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,120 transport and, and breaking down nutrition and, 958 01:00:55,260 --> 01:00:59,360 and moving it on a highway towards the root zone. Um, 959 01:01:00,140 --> 01:01:04,240 but when the nutrition, but, but when the nutrition gets to the root zone, 960 01:01:04,940 --> 01:01:07,840 the, the mic rza, um, 961 01:01:11,070 --> 01:01:12,640 Symbiosis, um, 962 01:01:12,950 --> 01:01:16,440 with the plant kind of takes over and, 963 01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:20,920 and does the actual barter transmutation or process of, of, 964 01:01:21,060 --> 01:01:25,480 of bringing that nutrition into the plant through this mutualistic 965 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,600 relationship. Um, 966 01:01:28,740 --> 01:01:32,440 and then the plant is then, you know, 967 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,520 sending the nutrients that it's sharing back down to the micro rise 968 01:01:37,980 --> 01:01:40,960 to the micro rise activity 969 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,440 mycelium, and then that goes back down the line. 970 01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:48,600 What I would like to know is there, 971 01:01:48,940 --> 01:01:53,600 is there anything physiologically different at that 972 01:01:53,650 --> 01:01:57,360 connection point between the mycelium 973 01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:03,560 and the plant root? Um, where where we would say, 974 01:02:03,780 --> 01:02:08,120 oh, uh, that is micro, that's microrisal fungus, 975 01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:12,800 you can tell by looking at it versus does it just look like regular 976 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,200 mycelium that's just doing a different activity? 977 01:02:18,020 --> 01:02:22,880 Um, so when you're looking at the mycelium itself Yeah, yeah. 978 01:02:23,140 --> 01:02:28,040 You know, I don't think I could really tell a difference. Um. 979 01:02:28,460 --> 01:02:31,760 That's really, that's really interesting because the way that all of us, I mean, 980 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,880 and, and we, cannabis people, we talk about a lot of stuff wrong. Right. Um, 981 01:02:35,140 --> 01:02:38,160 but, but it, it, we always talk, we talk about, you know, 982 01:02:38,450 --> 01:02:41,880 microrisal fungi as if it is like, like, you know, 983 01:02:42,060 --> 01:02:46,360 an a an absolutely different type of type of fungus. And, and the more we talk, 984 01:02:46,380 --> 01:02:50,960 the more that I realize that that kind of as a, as a, as an industry, 985 01:02:51,060 --> 01:02:52,120 we talk about it wrong. 986 01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:57,840 Hmm. Now I will say with, um, like ectomic, IAL fungi, 987 01:02:57,940 --> 01:03:02,040 we talked a little bit about this mantle of mycelium that covers the root 988 01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:03,080 system. Mm-hmm. , 989 01:03:03,140 --> 01:03:07,960 you can certainly find roots like that and you can know for 990 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,400 sure like this is mycelium that is from, 991 01:03:11,550 --> 01:03:14,280 this is an ectomic ial fungi, right? Mm-hmm. , 992 01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:19,200 it's very obvious where the endo microrisal fungi or amf, 993 01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:23,840 that's a little bit more tricky because they don't make this like mantle. 994 01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:28,440 It's like this mat of mycelium over the root system. 995 01:03:29,620 --> 01:03:34,240 Um, so there is that, you know, I just like kind of had that thought in there, 996 01:03:34,540 --> 01:03:36,080 but mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, 997 01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:40,960 if you saw this mat of mycelium next to your plant and next to the plant 998 01:03:41,010 --> 01:03:45,240 roots, and that would be hard for me to know unless I went, 999 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,800 I collected some roots and then I went through the process of clearing the 1000 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,360 pigmentation, staining it, right. 1001 01:03:52,460 --> 01:03:55,840 And then visualizing it under the scope. 1002 01:03:56,850 --> 01:04:00,000 Right on. Well, oh, go ahead. I didn't mean, I thought thought you were done. 1003 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:00,500 Go ahead. 1004 01:04:00,500 --> 01:04:04,240 No, pretty much there was just, you know, to make sure that this is, 1005 01:04:04,950 --> 01:04:05,590 this was, 1006 01:04:05,590 --> 01:04:10,480 this was the micro isel fungi that was responsible for all that 1007 01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,400 other mycelium I saw, but to distinguish it, yeah. 1008 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,120 I think would be kind of challenging. Right. 1009 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,480 On. Thank you. All right. So, um, 1010 01:04:17,660 --> 01:04:21,000 so to to to to end this second set, um, 1011 01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,480 I just wanna ask you one, uh, 1012 01:04:23,830 --> 01:04:27,880 ectomic question because when I read this preparing for the show, 1013 01:04:28,020 --> 01:04:29,440 it caught me way off guard. 1014 01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,680 And I would like to learn more about this if you know about it. 1015 01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,960 I read that Ectomic have been known to lure spring 1016 01:04:37,210 --> 01:04:40,400 tales to obtain nitrogen from them. 1017 01:04:41,020 --> 01:04:42,960 How the heck does that happen, ? 1018 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,000 I don't know. I don't know anything about that, 1019 01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:49,360 but I'm certainly gonna look into that after this. 1020 01:04:49,630 --> 01:04:54,400 Have you ever heard, outside of this particular example, have you ever, um, 1021 01:04:55,020 --> 01:04:59,560 uh, you know, come across examples of, of Mike Rae, you know, 1022 01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:04,560 acting like they are, are, are, are trapping anything like that? I mean, when, 1023 01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,800 when we learned how like, you know, you know, aphids farm and things like, 1024 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,960 or No, no, it's the, the ants farm, the, the aphid larva. Like that's, 1025 01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:16,680 that's some really interesting stuff to happen at that, that level of biology. 1026 01:05:16,970 --> 01:05:19,280 Right? And so, so have you heard, you know, 1027 01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:21,880 of any other examples of Mike Raza doing that sort of thing? 1028 01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:27,440 You know, it makes me think of like cortis and how that can drive, um, 1029 01:05:27,790 --> 01:05:31,400 certain insects, like it can take over the neurological system, 1030 01:05:31,530 --> 01:05:34,160 drive them to the top of the canopy, um, 1031 01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,080 eventually consume them completely. Uh, 1032 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,720 I haven't ever heard that with the EC echos, uh, 1033 01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:46,720 but I do know that ETOs have a lot more claims, um, to prevent, like, 1034 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:51,560 let's say insect or bry. I don't know if that's just because that mantle is, 1035 01:05:52,020 --> 01:05:54,280 you know, covering the root system. 1036 01:05:54,660 --> 01:05:59,440 So it's like this physical shield of defense for the plant. Mm-hmm. 1037 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:00,220 . Um, 1038 01:06:00,220 --> 01:06:05,120 but just knowing that there are other mechanisms like the 1039 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,360 cor deceptions, you know, I'm kind of a romantic when it comes to fungi, though. 1040 01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:12,840 I'm like, they can do anything. Right. So I'm, 1041 01:06:13,140 --> 01:06:16,280 I'm definitely curious about, about what you read there, 1042 01:06:16,420 --> 01:06:20,560 and now I wanna look into that, but it's not something I'm really aware of. 1043 01:06:20,690 --> 01:06:23,040 Right on. Well, I got, I got it, uh, uh, 1044 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,560 just from a article I found through Wikipedia. So it it's there if you want it, 1045 01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:29,240 you know, it, and it's really interesting too, to, uh, 1046 01:06:29,420 --> 01:06:33,440 to look at all the different tools that the Micro rza has. You know, it's got, 1047 01:06:33,590 --> 01:06:35,600 it's got different processes. It's got, 1048 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,760 it's got barters that it can be in the middle of to get what it needs to get 1049 01:06:38,790 --> 01:06:42,880 done. Um, you know, it's got, it's got, you know, like, like the, the, 1050 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,280 the soil version of like the, you know, chemical signals and, and what, 1051 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:51,000 you know, and smells, I think of terpenes. They may or may not be root terpenes, 1052 01:06:51,020 --> 01:06:54,760 but, but the idea of like all these, all these different tools, it's got, I, 1053 01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:57,920 I imagine like, oh yeah, the ectomic is, you know, 1054 01:06:58,030 --> 01:07:01,520 excreting some chemical that, that spring tails love. 1055 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:05,560 And then when it gets close enough, I imagine like, how the hell does a, how, 1056 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,120 how, how does fungus move fast enough to catch a spring tail? Right. You know? 1057 01:07:09,210 --> 01:07:12,040 Right. But again, you already said you don't know, so it's, 1058 01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:13,960 it's hard to not wonder though, you know? Well. 1059 01:07:13,980 --> 01:07:17,480 It, it kind of just reminds me of, um, 1060 01:07:17,830 --> 01:07:20,560 enzymes that are released, right? They're, 1061 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:25,040 they are these types of like digestive enzymes, you can think of 'em like that, 1062 01:07:25,820 --> 01:07:29,680 um, to break down the, you know, 1063 01:07:29,980 --> 01:07:33,920 non biologically available nutrients. Mm-hmm. . So, but yeah, 1064 01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:38,680 when you think about how slow the fungi move, , which is, you know, 1065 01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,320 one reason that I like 'em, they just like, stay put. Right. But, um, but yeah, 1066 01:07:42,780 --> 01:07:46,360 that's, it's a good question. And yeah, we'll have to, we'll, 1067 01:07:46,650 --> 01:07:50,200 we'll have to try to get somebody that's listening in to, uh, 1068 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,160 enlist in a PhD project on this. 1069 01:07:53,370 --> 01:07:56,600 Right on. Excellent. All right. So let's go ahead and take our second, uh, 1070 01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,280 commercial break. We will be right back. You are listening to Shaping Fire, 1071 01:08:00,340 --> 01:08:03,080 and my guest today is my college Stephanie Garcia. 1072 01:08:06,500 --> 01:08:10,410 There are so many seed banks nowadays that you really have options in who to 1073 01:08:10,410 --> 01:08:13,610 choose. 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Helene and Caitlin get it. 1099 01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:47,880 They have been in the cannabis growing scene for over a decade. 1100 01:09:48,710 --> 01:09:49,960 Want some extra freebies? 1101 01:09:50,700 --> 01:09:54,280 Use the code shaping fire all one word at checkout, 1102 01:09:54,540 --> 01:09:58,560 and they will give you an additional set of gas lamp provided freebies. 1103 01:09:58,820 --> 01:10:01,200 That's an extra $30 in free seeds. 1104 01:10:02,260 --> 01:10:07,240 Buy seeds from good folks who will send you great seeds reliably every time. 1105 01:10:08,010 --> 01:10:10,960 Visit gas lamp seeds.com today. 1106 01:10:11,420 --> 01:10:13,320 That's gas lamp seeds. 1107 01:10:17,090 --> 01:10:21,030 The cannabis seed market is filled with big name and hype breeders fighting to 1108 01:10:21,030 --> 01:10:21,863 get your attention. 1109 01:10:21,970 --> 01:10:25,310 And occasionally you discover a breeder who is breeding because it is the only 1110 01:10:25,550 --> 01:10:26,590 thing they care to do, 1111 01:10:26,730 --> 01:10:29,190 and they would be doing it even if they never made a dime. 1112 01:10:29,930 --> 01:10:34,110 That's my friend Craig Hark, who makes seeds as magnetic genetics. 1113 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,510 Craig comes from five generations of farmers and is earning his master's degree 1114 01:10:38,510 --> 01:10:39,670 in horticulture right now. 1115 01:10:40,100 --> 01:10:43,310 He's been growing cannabis for 15 years and been breeding for nine. 1116 01:10:44,010 --> 01:10:47,310 He hasn't sold many seeds because he really isn't a sales guy, 1117 01:10:47,530 --> 01:10:49,630 but I've personally been growing his seeds for years, 1118 01:10:49,930 --> 01:10:53,270 and I know I can always rely on his seeds to germinate, thrive, 1119 01:10:53,530 --> 01:10:54,830 and smell and taste great. 1120 01:10:55,590 --> 01:10:59,630 I suggested to Craig that he should probably sell some seeds and asked if he had 1121 01:10:59,630 --> 01:11:02,470 enough stockpile to bother. Much to my shock, 1122 01:11:02,890 --> 01:11:07,230 he was sitting on five full menus in cold storage that he produced in the last 1123 01:11:07,230 --> 01:11:09,750 two years, and hadn't even tried to sell any of 'em. 1124 01:11:09,930 --> 01:11:13,760 He was simply too busy breeding. Well, we, his friends, 1125 01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,720 convinced him to make his damn seeds available to the people. 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I am your host Shose, 1175 01:14:22,300 --> 01:14:24,800 and my guest today is Mycologist Stephanie Garcia. 1176 01:14:25,380 --> 01:14:29,400 So here we are in the third set. During the first set, we, we talked about, uh, 1177 01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,640 mycelium networks and, and the roles they do and don't play in the soil. 1178 01:14:34,180 --> 01:14:38,960 And then we talked about micro symbiosis between the mycelium and 1179 01:14:39,060 --> 01:14:43,960 the plant, and all the myriad tools that, um, micro iza, 1180 01:14:44,460 --> 01:14:47,160 um, have got in the toolbox to be able to, 1181 01:14:47,220 --> 01:14:51,120 to do all the various processes that they're responsible for. Well, 1182 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:51,960 here in set three, 1183 01:14:52,090 --> 01:14:56,840 we're gonna talk about supporting mycelium and the micro iza symbiosis, 1184 01:14:57,300 --> 01:14:58,880 um, in your garden. So we're, 1185 01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,480 we're gonna talk about some best practices and some, 1186 01:15:01,480 --> 01:15:05,800 maybe some less than best practices. So, so Stephanie, you know, 1187 01:15:05,810 --> 01:15:10,440 today we've been mostly talking about living soil because that's mostly what 1188 01:15:10,550 --> 01:15:12,840 shaping fire, you know, talks about as a show. 1189 01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:17,080 But lots of cannabis growers use soilless mediums like, 1190 01:15:17,310 --> 01:15:20,720 like Cocoa Quar and Pete or Rockwell. Um, 1191 01:15:20,860 --> 01:15:25,560 do mycelium networks grow in these other non-living soil mediums? 1192 01:15:26,590 --> 01:15:28,320 Yeah. Yeah, they certainly can. 1193 01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:34,040 Um, is it the, so, alright, 1194 01:15:34,100 --> 01:15:36,680 so you say they can, so, so do they, 1195 01:15:36,710 --> 01:15:41,640 because you don't have as complex of a biological environment 1196 01:15:42,140 --> 01:15:46,760 in some of these soilless mediums as you would have in living 1197 01:15:46,950 --> 01:15:48,200 soil. Um, 1198 01:15:48,540 --> 01:15:53,240 do they present themselves differently or are there only particular strains of 1199 01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:57,520 mycelium that can take to that environment? Um, uh, maybe I'm wrong, 1200 01:15:57,540 --> 01:16:00,320 but it just seems to me that like with, with, um, 1201 01:16:01,100 --> 01:16:05,920 so much less of the biology that happens in living soil that's not in 1202 01:16:06,250 --> 01:16:10,120 cocoa, Pete and Rockwell, that there would be some kind of, um, 1203 01:16:10,270 --> 01:16:15,080 differences between how, um, mycelium and micro iza present themselves. 1204 01:16:15,180 --> 01:16:16,400 But, but perhaps it's not. 1205 01:16:17,390 --> 01:16:19,720 Yeah. You know, I think one thing we've done, 1206 01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:23,520 we've done a few hydroponic studies, um, not with cannabis, 1207 01:16:23,700 --> 01:16:27,520 but I know that there have also been some hydroponic studies in cannabis with, 1208 01:16:27,700 --> 01:16:31,360 um, with micro isel fungi. And, um, 1209 01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:33,680 I know that they're, 1210 01:16:33,870 --> 01:16:38,240 they're able to establish in that type of system and maybe, 1211 01:16:38,860 --> 01:16:43,320 um, you know, maybe they're not as reliant on the nutrients, 1212 01:16:44,060 --> 01:16:47,720 uh, because they're really communicating with the plant root system. Mm-hmm. 1213 01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,840 . Um, I know in these studies that I've read about with cannabis, 1214 01:16:51,150 --> 01:16:53,600 that they, um, 1215 01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:57,800 they've shown to increase plant vigor. And so, 1216 01:16:58,820 --> 01:17:02,640 um, yeah, I would think that they would act somewhat different. 1217 01:17:02,660 --> 01:17:05,680 But as far as the benefit to the plant, um, 1218 01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,480 these studies suggested that they were, you know, 1219 01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:10,800 they were still able to perform mm-hmm. . 1220 01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:14,920 Mm-hmm. . So I wanna ask about, uh, water and, uh, 1221 01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:18,120 mycelium networks again, but not like what we talked about, uh, water earlier, 1222 01:17:18,290 --> 01:17:21,920 about, about how mycelium helps create good soil structure, 1223 01:17:22,010 --> 01:17:25,760 which allows the water to get through it. And, and how by it retaining water, 1224 01:17:25,900 --> 01:17:29,920 it helps the plant, you know, um, you know, not, not, uh, 1225 01:17:29,940 --> 01:17:33,080 dry out in drought conditions. It does all these really good, um, 1226 01:17:33,130 --> 01:17:37,400 water retention aspects. I wanna talk more about, uh, uh, 1227 01:17:37,420 --> 01:17:42,400 we as cultivators watering the plant. Um, I can imagine that, 1228 01:17:42,740 --> 01:17:44,360 um, you know, like anything, 1229 01:17:44,430 --> 01:17:49,400 even water that is helpful can become dangerous if it's given too much of it. 1230 01:17:49,700 --> 01:17:52,520 And I imagine that if we, you know, over water, 1231 01:17:52,690 --> 01:17:57,440 it'll cause the mi mycelium networks to rot. And then if we underwater, 1232 01:17:58,220 --> 01:18:01,520 um, you know, maybe they'll, they'll, you know, dry out and cyst up. 1233 01:18:01,540 --> 01:18:04,280 So now they're not working either. And so as cultivators, 1234 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:08,440 we kind of want to get this sweet spot somewhere in the middle where we're 1235 01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:11,000 providing enough water for everything to thrive, 1236 01:18:11,220 --> 01:18:14,320 but not enough to throw the mycelium network out of balance. 1237 01:18:15,100 --> 01:18:17,680 So do you have any advice around that for us? 1238 01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:22,440 Yeah, sure. So I think one thing to consider is the, 1239 01:18:23,380 --> 01:18:27,720 the micro isel fungi, they're, they're actually really good at, um, 1240 01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:30,800 helping the plants resist drought, right? 1241 01:18:31,020 --> 01:18:35,920 So there's a lot of mechanisms they have where the micro isly helps 1242 01:18:36,050 --> 01:18:39,440 store the water, um, they can also explore for it. 1243 01:18:39,860 --> 01:18:42,880 So it's not, I think, 1244 01:18:43,140 --> 01:18:47,800 as big of an issue for them to be a little bit under watered 1245 01:18:47,820 --> 01:18:51,200 mm-hmm. , right? Um, they seem to perform, 1246 01:18:51,620 --> 01:18:55,840 the plants seem to perform really well with the reduction in water. Um, 1247 01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,000 I know there's been a lot of research and we've done a little research, um, 1248 01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:04,160 with the group I'm with, um, on watering amount. 1249 01:19:04,220 --> 01:19:08,400 And some people would suggest you don't have to water as much if you, you know, 1250 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:12,640 have this microrisal association going. Um, 1251 01:19:13,180 --> 01:19:17,080 not really sure how people would feel about that reducing their watering 1252 01:19:17,140 --> 01:19:19,920 and everything like that. But, um, 1253 01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:24,840 I think that if they have these root system systems 1254 01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:27,520 established, then, um, 1255 01:19:27,710 --> 01:19:32,320 they're just really well equipped to face that, um, 1256 01:19:32,620 --> 01:19:32,920 you know, 1257 01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,680 the stresses of drought and they can bounce back even if water becomes less and 1258 01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:38,513 less available. 1259 01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:43,560 I think that's a really good example of, of why, um, mature, 1260 01:19:44,300 --> 01:19:49,240 uh, soil environments like whether it's a, in a, in a pot or a bed or, or, uh, 1261 01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:53,320 like a raised bed or something that, that mature soils with, 1262 01:19:53,470 --> 01:19:57,960 with lots of fungal networks that are mature 1263 01:19:58,500 --> 01:20:03,200 are just really going to give you a lot more of a buffer as a cultivator. Um, 1264 01:20:03,630 --> 01:20:06,240 because, um, it, 1265 01:20:07,350 --> 01:20:11,640 it's more flexible than a pot that we, that we, we, 1266 01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:14,400 we just mixed some soil and threw it in and, 1267 01:20:14,420 --> 01:20:16,960 and put our clone in there and, 1268 01:20:17,300 --> 01:20:20,080 and now that pot is going to be, uh, 1269 01:20:20,710 --> 01:20:25,440 have much fewer defenses than a mature pot that's packed with mycelium 1270 01:20:25,440 --> 01:20:26,273 networks. 1271 01:20:26,300 --> 01:20:29,520 Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And you know, 1272 01:20:29,630 --> 01:20:32,040 even thinking about this overwatering, 1273 01:20:33,110 --> 01:20:36,160 just like we talked about some of the, um, you know, 1274 01:20:36,260 --> 01:20:39,560 saline soil and the heavy metal or, you know, 1275 01:20:39,770 --> 01:20:41,560 heavy metal uptake mitigation, 1276 01:20:42,260 --> 01:20:46,480 the mycelium can also help with uptake, mitigation of water. 1277 01:20:46,740 --> 01:20:49,440 So say you're over watering, um, 1278 01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:54,520 I think mycelium is really good at holding that and just helping to deliver 1279 01:20:54,590 --> 01:20:59,080 this like, really nice amount of water to the plant. Um, 1280 01:20:59,580 --> 01:21:01,120 now I'm not saying you can over water, 1281 01:21:01,860 --> 01:21:05,200 but mycelium is just gonna take care of it. You know, 1282 01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:07,360 we have to be conscientious of that as well. 1283 01:21:08,420 --> 01:21:12,720 But your bandwidth of success is going to be wider with more mycelium. 1284 01:21:13,070 --> 01:21:14,080 Yeah, absolutely. 1285 01:21:14,580 --> 01:21:19,480 Um, uh, two more, or or another question about water quality. Um, does, does, 1286 01:21:19,700 --> 01:21:20,390 um, 1287 01:21:20,390 --> 01:21:25,320 does the pH water or how much mineral content it has on it have any impact 1288 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,560 on the mycelium networks? 1289 01:21:27,550 --> 01:21:29,560 Yeah, I mean, they don't, you know, they're, 1290 01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:31,880 they're similar to other things that we grow where they, 1291 01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,200 they kind of want that neutral pH, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, 1292 01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:40,200 we do see responses if they have a really low pH or really high pH that 1293 01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,960 they don't colonize and they don't perform very well. 1294 01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:50,040 I've had this idea, which, um, is not scientific just based on observation, 1295 01:21:50,700 --> 01:21:55,240 um, that, uh, I, I wonder whether or not high mineral water, 1296 01:21:55,860 --> 01:21:56,210 um, 1297 01:21:56,210 --> 01:22:01,200 would be more difficult for mycelium to transport because of its high 1298 01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:04,480 mineral nature. I think of it as like chunky water mm-hmm. 1299 01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,000 and, and perhaps the mycelium either needs to a, 1300 01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:10,120 separate out the, the, 1301 01:22:10,140 --> 01:22:14,440 the minerals that are in the water or b just refuses to use it. Um, 1302 01:22:14,820 --> 01:22:18,480 do you have anything to offer on this, on this idea of mineral water? 1303 01:22:19,230 --> 01:22:19,580 Yeah, 1304 01:22:19,580 --> 01:22:24,560 the only thing I would imagine is if I was the fungal hyphy 1305 01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:25,560 or the, you know, 1306 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,280 if I was the mycelium in there and the water was too chunky for me to deal with, 1307 01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:33,240 I would probably try to secrete some enzymes to break it down. Oh yeah. 1308 01:22:33,260 --> 01:22:36,840 To make it easier to transport. Um, yeah, 1309 01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:38,600 it's an interesting theory mm-hmm. . 1310 01:22:39,300 --> 01:22:43,000 So after we break up this soil, say for example, uh, you know, 1311 01:22:43,700 --> 01:22:48,640 we tend to, um, encourage, um, you know, no-till as a general idea. 1312 01:22:48,780 --> 01:22:49,560 But, you know, 1313 01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:53,480 sometimes we're in positions where we just wanna refresh a pot and we wanna, 1314 01:22:53,500 --> 01:22:58,080 we wanna pop out the soil and we wanna break it up and maybe we amend it and 1315 01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:00,720 then, and then maybe, maybe we're putting it in a new pot cuz our, 1316 01:23:00,740 --> 01:23:03,720 our pots are getting old and janky mm-hmm. . 1317 01:23:03,900 --> 01:23:08,120 And so the soil is aged soil and it, and, 1318 01:23:08,140 --> 01:23:09,640 and until we broke it up, 1319 01:23:10,180 --> 01:23:14,640 it had a pretty complex mycelium network. Um, 1320 01:23:14,660 --> 01:23:18,440 but then we broke it up. And so now we've got all these, um, uh, 1321 01:23:18,440 --> 01:23:20,520 propag strands, right? Mm-hmm. , 1322 01:23:20,580 --> 01:23:24,280 and you were telling us earlier how any one of those strands can, you know, 1323 01:23:24,490 --> 01:23:26,680 start a new, um, a new network. 1324 01:23:28,220 --> 01:23:32,560 How long would you suggest that it's going to take from the, 1325 01:23:32,620 --> 01:23:37,440 the day that I pop out the soil and break it up and amend it and put it back 1326 01:23:37,710 --> 01:23:42,000 into a pot until those, um, 1327 01:23:42,900 --> 01:23:47,360 uh, pieces of mycelium, you know, find each other and get themselves, 1328 01:23:47,860 --> 01:23:51,520 uh, rea associated and then are functioning and doing their job again? 1329 01:23:53,460 --> 01:23:56,360 So, and is in this scenario where, um, 1330 01:23:56,360 --> 01:24:00,120 thinking of you've replanted a plant, there's a plant in there. 1331 01:24:00,350 --> 01:24:03,360 Yeah. There, they'll, they'll there's a cannabis start in there, is the idea. 1332 01:24:03,390 --> 01:24:07,280 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So this is a, 1333 01:24:07,430 --> 01:24:12,000 this is a great question. Um, I know that if we're growing these, 1334 01:24:12,260 --> 01:24:16,280 um, fungi in vitro culture, so if we're in the lab doing this, 1335 01:24:16,430 --> 01:24:21,160 this can take a couple weeks, two to three weeks before the plant or Yeah. 1336 01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,640 Before the plant and the fungi come together and create that symbiosis. 1337 01:24:26,460 --> 01:24:30,440 Um, in this one study I'm thinking about, 1338 01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:33,120 and it was with cannabis, it, it was about, 1339 01:24:33,780 --> 01:24:36,040 it was suggested that it's about six weeks, 1340 01:24:36,740 --> 01:24:41,080 but that there were these benefits that were noticed even 1341 01:24:41,570 --> 01:24:45,520 ahead of that time, right? So when we run our bioassays, 1342 01:24:45,980 --> 01:24:49,920 we usually let it go eight weeks. And that, 1343 01:24:51,180 --> 01:24:54,680 that's the timeline that we've stuck with to see this was a really good 1344 01:24:54,710 --> 01:24:58,920 colonized root system, right? So, you know, 1345 01:24:58,940 --> 01:25:02,800 we know that in those lab conditions, everything is like perfect. You know, 1346 01:25:02,820 --> 01:25:07,640 we have this spore right next to this root organ culture and 1347 01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:11,280 it's connecting, like we're putting it right in this like perfect condition, 1348 01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:13,920 right? And we can see that in a couple weeks. Um, 1349 01:25:13,980 --> 01:25:16,160 we run those bioassays for eight weeks. 1350 01:25:16,250 --> 01:25:19,920 We've have a study here that says six weeks. So, um, 1351 01:25:19,990 --> 01:25:24,440 it's a little more challenging if you have something that doesn't go very long. 1352 01:25:24,630 --> 01:25:29,360 Like some of our hydroponic studies, for example, we we're looking at lettuce. 1353 01:25:29,550 --> 01:25:33,960 Well, after a month of growing lettuce hydroponically, it's time to harvest it, 1354 01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:34,540 right? Mm-hmm. . 1355 01:25:34,540 --> 01:25:39,360 So it was really hard for us to find really good colonization throughout and all 1356 01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:42,320 of the, like this huge root biomass that it produced. 1357 01:25:43,500 --> 01:25:44,440 So yeah, 1358 01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:49,360 I think we generally tell people to that you wouldn't see any 1359 01:25:49,390 --> 01:25:54,320 type of effects for, you know, three or four weeks mm-hmm. . Um, 1360 01:25:54,740 --> 01:25:55,573 so that's. 1361 01:25:55,780 --> 01:25:57,720 So that's exactly what I was going for. Yeah. And, 1362 01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:02,720 and the follow up is I really think that this makes a case that if we are 1363 01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:07,680 gonna do any kind of that rejuvenation of pots where we're gonna be breaking up 1364 01:26:08,380 --> 01:26:12,200 mature pots, mending 'em, maybe recoiling some, 1365 01:26:12,380 --> 01:26:14,720 and then putting 'em back in that, um, 1366 01:26:14,780 --> 01:26:19,200 we really want to do that either much earlier in the 1367 01:26:19,580 --> 01:26:24,200 spring or even the prior fall. And in, in either case, 1368 01:26:24,260 --> 01:26:28,720 either add like a, a small cover crop, a love of small plants or, 1369 01:26:28,860 --> 01:26:33,680 or maybe like a or maybe like comfy or something to be a placeholder for our 1370 01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,440 cannabis plant so that by the time, um, you know, 1371 01:26:37,540 --> 01:26:40,560 end of may comes and we want to start, uh, 1372 01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:43,040 planting our cannabis starts into the soil. 1373 01:26:43,710 --> 01:26:48,600 That that work of reconnecting all of the meial strands, 1374 01:26:49,140 --> 01:26:53,720 um, has already been done because as, as you and I are, are discussing it, 1375 01:26:54,420 --> 01:26:58,000 you know, a lot of people will, will, you know, break up the pots, 1376 01:26:58,340 --> 01:27:01,560 do the amendment, fill up the pots, and then, 1377 01:27:01,660 --> 01:27:04,680 and then put their cannabis plants in there within a week mm-hmm. . 1378 01:27:04,780 --> 01:27:08,440 And that tells me that through at least, um, you know, 1379 01:27:08,590 --> 01:27:10,560 most of their veg period, 1380 01:27:11,190 --> 01:27:15,840 that plant is living in a sub optimum living environment because 1381 01:27:16,060 --> 01:27:19,880 the mycelium networks are broken at that point. 1382 01:27:21,390 --> 01:27:25,680 Yeah, absolutely. And when you think about some of these, like, you know, we're, 1383 01:27:25,690 --> 01:27:27,320 we're more in this like agricultural, 1384 01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,080 I mean more in this agricultural type industry. 1385 01:27:30,100 --> 01:27:33,640 And when we talk about regenerative ag mm-hmm. , I mean, 1386 01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:37,520 that's the thing, you know, you're trying for minimal disturbance, right? 1387 01:27:37,660 --> 01:27:41,720 No till or strip tillage. But if you can't do that, okay, you can't do that. 1388 01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:46,520 Right. But like what you're saying makes so much sense because you can, 1389 01:27:47,020 --> 01:27:49,800 you know, do your amendments, do whatever, you know, you're, 1390 01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,880 you're thinking you really need to do to the soil and then plant that cover 1391 01:27:54,190 --> 01:27:56,200 crop, let it sit there. I mean, 1392 01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:00,080 having living roots even with your crop, right? 1393 01:28:00,230 --> 01:28:04,520 Relieving this type of compaction and things like that, um, 1394 01:28:04,780 --> 01:28:09,600 it makes sense. It's same thing with like, um, crop diversity, right? Mm-hmm. 1395 01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,800 or like a rotation, right? You kind of want to get away from that. 1396 01:28:13,870 --> 01:28:18,000 I've always planted this one plant and this soil, um, 1397 01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:20,680 it takes the nutrients different right? 1398 01:28:21,140 --> 01:28:25,800 And then try to replenish it with like a type of cover crop. Um, you know, 1399 01:28:26,220 --> 01:28:30,440 one thing I was thinking when you were saying this was, 1400 01:28:31,100 --> 01:28:35,560 and asking these questions and something that just kind of came to mind is it's 1401 01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,920 really interesting that we will, 1402 01:28:38,010 --> 01:28:41,880 we'll let these bioassays go for eight weeks, right? 1403 01:28:42,780 --> 01:28:47,200 But there's been so many experiences I've had where 1404 01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:52,120 I inoculate in transplant and I've seen a clear 1405 01:28:52,940 --> 01:28:57,000 impact of a reduction of transplant shock. 1406 01:28:58,020 --> 01:29:02,000 So it's, I'm not really sure exactly what that's due to. 1407 01:29:02,380 --> 01:29:07,080 Is this some type of carrier effect? Um, 1408 01:29:08,190 --> 01:29:12,480 does somehow the plant know this fungus is there and they're releasing some 1409 01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:14,240 other types of root exudates? 1410 01:29:14,460 --> 01:29:19,280 But that's something that I've witnessed quite a bit and applying microrisal 1411 01:29:19,650 --> 01:29:24,000 fungi and this inoculum is you see this transplant, um, 1412 01:29:25,130 --> 01:29:27,000 shock like resistance mm-hmm. . 1413 01:29:27,660 --> 01:29:29,640 And that's just something interesting to me. 1414 01:29:29,660 --> 01:29:34,600 Cuz if we don't see that symbiosis occurring for however long it might 1415 01:29:35,100 --> 01:29:38,800 not occur for, but then we're still seeing some type of positive impact. 1416 01:29:38,860 --> 01:29:42,960 It just makes me wonder what else is going on. Yeah. You know, below the ground. 1417 01:29:43,180 --> 01:29:45,240 For sure. It does for sure. Again, more, 1418 01:29:45,310 --> 01:29:47,800 more room for research for the people coming up . 1419 01:29:48,130 --> 01:29:48,963 Absolutely. 1420 01:29:49,180 --> 01:29:53,920 Um, are there specific soil amendments that either help or hinder, um, 1421 01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:58,160 mycelium and the micro symbiosis? Um, you know, 1422 01:29:58,420 --> 01:29:59,680 the main answer may just be, 1423 01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:02,480 well keep your soil generally balanced and healthy and, 1424 01:30:02,480 --> 01:30:04,080 and that that's reasonable. But, 1425 01:30:04,260 --> 01:30:07,200 but there also could be like some amendment that you're like, oh, 1426 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:10,400 this is a key building block, um, you know, 1427 01:30:10,700 --> 01:30:12,280 for mycelium networks and, 1428 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:14,400 and you should make sure that you add this or something. 1429 01:30:15,190 --> 01:30:17,960 Yeah, that's a great question. I know that, um, 1430 01:30:18,490 --> 01:30:21,840 we've read some literature about biochar mm-hmm. being helpful, 1431 01:30:22,540 --> 01:30:26,720 um, and, you know, increasing colonization. 1432 01:30:27,700 --> 01:30:28,120 Um, 1433 01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:32,760 I know that we really avoid having anything really high and 1434 01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:37,320 phosphorous. So high phosphorus contents can really, 1435 01:30:37,780 --> 01:30:40,720 um, reduce the level of colonization. 1436 01:30:41,940 --> 01:30:46,040 So I'd just say to consider, definitely consider the phosphorus content. 1437 01:30:46,590 --> 01:30:51,160 It's interesting cuz Mike Grisel fungi are so wonderful at acquiring 1438 01:30:51,170 --> 01:30:56,160 phosphorus that's like their flagship nutrient. But if you plant it in, 1439 01:30:56,260 --> 01:30:59,880 if you plant this plant in this really phosphorous rich environment, 1440 01:31:00,300 --> 01:31:04,880 the micro isel fungi doesn't establish maybe because it thinks why do I need to 1441 01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:05,713 be here? 1442 01:31:06,270 --> 01:31:07,720 Yeah. My job would be redundant. 1443 01:31:08,250 --> 01:31:13,120 Right? So there's a lot of research on, um, on, 1444 01:31:13,380 --> 01:31:16,080 on phosphorus levels and, um, 1445 01:31:16,430 --> 01:31:20,160 even fertilizing with a lower p so when, 1446 01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:21,960 when that's becoming established. Right. 1447 01:31:22,130 --> 01:31:24,000 Right. On. Um, and I, and I've got a, 1448 01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,680 a fertilizer question to follow up that with, um, you know, 1449 01:31:26,690 --> 01:31:31,440 while we focus mostly on natural farming techniques on shaping fire, many folks, 1450 01:31:31,740 --> 01:31:34,800 uh, choose the ease of using, you know, 1451 01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:38,840 salt based fertilizers and a plus B kind of stuff for indoors mm-hmm. 1452 01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,560 , how do these sort of like sodium fertilizers impact, um, 1453 01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:46,840 mycelium and the micro iza symbiosis in any way? 1454 01:31:48,030 --> 01:31:51,560 Well, we, um, you know, I can't, I don't know really, 1455 01:31:51,780 --> 01:31:56,680 but I know that we had to use some of that material in our hydroponic study and 1456 01:31:57,180 --> 01:32:00,520 the lettuce, that study wasn't as successful, but, um, 1457 01:32:00,540 --> 01:32:04,920 we also worked with Basal and it seemed to still, you know, it's still, 1458 01:32:05,220 --> 01:32:08,920 it was still able to work with it. We just made sure that the PE was low. 1459 01:32:09,220 --> 01:32:11,560 Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, cuz that's really important. 1460 01:32:12,860 --> 01:32:17,200 So, so to, um, kind of wrap this up a little bit, um, 1461 01:32:17,620 --> 01:32:21,280 you know, th this, the more I prepared for this show, 1462 01:32:22,260 --> 01:32:27,080 the more complex I realized that my mycelium networks and micro iza 1463 01:32:27,110 --> 01:32:30,080 symbiosis is right. I'm like, I was like, you know, you know, 1464 01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:31,200 a couple days into, 1465 01:32:31,310 --> 01:32:35,120 into building my question path for this episode and I'm like, holy crap, 1466 01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:39,880 this is like two episodes. Like, and, and a college course, right? 1467 01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:40,200 Like, 1468 01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:44,280 there's so much here and you of course is somebody who's dedicated themselves to 1469 01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:48,280 studying fungus knows this. So, so, um, as kind of a wrap up, there are, 1470 01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:50,360 there are certainly things that, 1471 01:32:50,510 --> 01:32:55,400 that I didn't ask you because I didn't know to ask you 1472 01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,120 because I don't have the, the, the depth that you have got and, 1473 01:32:59,180 --> 01:33:02,960 and if our goal with this show was to, you know, 1474 01:33:04,070 --> 01:33:08,000 have cannabis cultivators be more aware of, uh, 1475 01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:12,280 mycelium networks to consider them more, um, and, 1476 01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:16,880 and how to support them when they are growing either in 1477 01:33:17,070 --> 01:33:20,040 beds or in containers. And then, and then, 1478 01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:24,840 and then understand the micro iza symbiosis and, and the importance of it. 1479 01:33:25,020 --> 01:33:28,640 So, so we continually, um, you know, 1480 01:33:28,870 --> 01:33:33,600 respect the role that, that, uh, the living soul is playing, soil is playing. 1481 01:33:34,420 --> 01:33:37,000 Um, what would you, uh, 1482 01:33:37,180 --> 01:33:41,760 say is that something that I may have missed that would be helpful 1483 01:33:42,380 --> 01:33:46,320 to cultivators in, in making sure they've got, uh, 1484 01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:48,520 healthy and functioning my cial networks? 1485 01:33:49,990 --> 01:33:53,760 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think you asked some amazing questions. 1486 01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:59,040 I think that you covered, um, things really well. Esp I mean, 1487 01:33:59,040 --> 01:34:02,960 everything from the mycelium to describing micro isel, fungi, their role, 1488 01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:06,480 everything like that. I think one thing that we didn't, um, 1489 01:34:06,590 --> 01:34:10,240 necessarily touch on was just, um, 1490 01:34:10,490 --> 01:34:13,160 micro isel products. And not to put any, 1491 01:34:14,060 --> 01:34:17,400 not gonna put any type of plugs in there for any particular product, 1492 01:34:17,700 --> 01:34:22,400 but what I would tell people to be aware of is label claims. 1493 01:34:22,700 --> 01:34:25,120 Mm-hmm. , right? So if you're, 1494 01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:28,760 if you wanna incorporate Isel fungi, um, 1495 01:34:28,940 --> 01:34:33,200 by going out and buying a product, look at the claim. 1496 01:34:33,450 --> 01:34:37,320 Don't just look at this soil contains micro I, 1497 01:34:37,790 --> 01:34:41,040 because one thing I've really noticed, um, 1498 01:34:41,710 --> 01:34:43,040 through my time with, 1499 01:34:43,040 --> 01:34:47,000 with the company I'm working with now is there's a lot of products out there 1500 01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:51,760 that will claim we have micro I, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, 1501 01:34:51,820 --> 01:34:56,720 but when you look at their claim, it's extremely low. And so, 1502 01:34:56,940 --> 01:35:01,680 you know, if you're having a fraction of, you know, 1503 01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:06,320 a fraction of a propag for, you know, a cubic inch of soil, 1504 01:35:06,470 --> 01:35:11,240 like that's really not gonna do you any good, right? So just be aware, 1505 01:35:11,860 --> 01:35:15,240 um, that there are a lot of products out there that might have a really, 1506 01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:16,240 really low claim. 1507 01:35:16,780 --> 01:35:20,720 And so you may think you're introducing micro isel fungi through 1508 01:35:21,770 --> 01:35:26,280 soils or different inoculums, but just try to educate yourself on, 1509 01:35:27,660 --> 01:35:32,320 on the levels. And if you see something coming in at a fraction of a propag, 1510 01:35:32,750 --> 01:35:36,120 it's probably not delivering what you're hoping it will. 1511 01:35:36,730 --> 01:35:40,400 Right On. That is really insightful. I'm glad that you added that. And, 1512 01:35:40,620 --> 01:35:41,720 you know, this is, um, 1513 01:35:41,870 --> 01:35:45,640 this is also something that we talk about when we're talking about microbe 1514 01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:49,320 communities, right? Because there's, there's all these, like, you know, 1515 01:35:49,580 --> 01:35:51,040 new to the market, you know, 1516 01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:57,440 microbe community infusion products, right? Mm-hmm. and, 1517 01:35:57,500 --> 01:35:59,680 and, and, and people just buy them and because they, 1518 01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:03,960 they like the marketing of it. But then, you know, you, you know, 1519 01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,880 if somebody with, with a, with a bio biology background looks at the label, 1520 01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:11,400 they're all like, you know, what is this? You know, it is something, 1521 01:36:11,580 --> 01:36:14,200 you know mm-hmm. and, and, and I think it's, it's all, 1522 01:36:14,230 --> 01:36:18,240 it's good for all of us to be a savvy and a bit skeptical, uh, 1523 01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:22,200 consumers when it comes to, um, you know, science that we may not, 1524 01:36:22,340 --> 01:36:24,080 may not be entirely familiar with. 1525 01:36:24,790 --> 01:36:28,840 Yeah. I mean, really with all of our products, right? But Right. But, and, 1526 01:36:28,840 --> 01:36:33,480 you know, even questioning, even seeing claims that you think are, 1527 01:36:33,870 --> 01:36:38,080 okay, cool, this seems like a decent enough, um, level. 1528 01:36:38,940 --> 01:36:39,420 Um, 1529 01:36:39,420 --> 01:36:44,120 I'm more of a fan of over inoculating as long as the carrier isn't gonna cause 1530 01:36:44,140 --> 01:36:48,520 any type of phytotoxicity mm-hmm. , um, you know, 1531 01:36:48,790 --> 01:36:50,920 sometimes companies will say, you know, 1532 01:36:51,170 --> 01:36:56,040 apply this much and this is what's best, you know, on the business aspect. But, 1533 01:36:56,980 --> 01:36:58,880 um, I'm, 1534 01:36:59,020 --> 01:37:02,800 I'm a bit more of a fan of giving it a little extra , 1535 01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:04,120 let's just put it that way, . 1536 01:37:04,130 --> 01:37:08,080 Right on. Right on. So another ex another good point to know your carrier, 1537 01:37:08,190 --> 01:37:11,880 know what your filler products are in whatever products you're using, right? 1538 01:37:11,990 --> 01:37:15,120 Yeah. So, so Stephanie, thank you so much for, uh, 1539 01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:17,120 spending your time with us today and, and, 1540 01:37:17,140 --> 01:37:21,680 and sharing your insight into Mycelium networks and the micro rase 1541 01:37:21,710 --> 01:37:24,280 symbiosis. Um, uh, I know that I learned a lot, 1542 01:37:24,330 --> 01:37:29,120 especially about the Mike Rises symbiosis, like when, when, 1543 01:37:29,310 --> 01:37:33,760 when, you know, I really got to wrapping my head around that, 1544 01:37:33,790 --> 01:37:38,120 that it is a process more than a thing. Um, I mean, 1545 01:37:38,310 --> 01:37:42,080 clearly it broke my brain there and set one, but, but, um, you know, 1546 01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:43,920 throughout the rest of the show, I, I, 1547 01:37:44,070 --> 01:37:48,000 I've realized that the impacts that that has as far as how I've been taking care 1548 01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:52,720 of my own, um, uh, growing containers. So, so, so thank you for, 1549 01:37:52,940 --> 01:37:57,360 um, you know, sharing your insight and, and your time and your good cheer, uh, 1550 01:37:57,360 --> 01:37:59,120 with everybody here on Shaping Fire. 1551 01:37:59,700 --> 01:38:01,760 Oh, you're so welcome. It's really been a pleasure. 1552 01:38:02,390 --> 01:38:05,480 Awesome. So, uh, if you would like to, uh, 1553 01:38:05,580 --> 01:38:08,680 get in contact with Stephanie Garcia, um, 1554 01:38:08,940 --> 01:38:12,200 you can do so through LinkedIn. Um, unlike some of our other guests, 1555 01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:17,200 she's not super, uh, active on, on, you know, the Twitter, Instagram, uh, 1556 01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:21,400 that we normally give you. And that's because she's in the lab, uh, where, 1557 01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,840 where, where she's doing the great work. So, uh, but, 1558 01:38:23,860 --> 01:38:26,800 but if there's some reason that you wanna reach out to her, um, uh, 1559 01:38:26,940 --> 01:38:31,320 you can reach her on LinkedIn and, uh, that's, uh, Stephanie with, uh, 1560 01:38:31,460 --> 01:38:33,160 pH n not an F. 1561 01:38:33,940 --> 01:38:37,320 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the 1562 01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:40,640 show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts. 1563 01:38:40,940 --> 01:38:42,920 If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it. 1564 01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:44,640 If you'd leave a positive review of the podcast, 1565 01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:49,160 wherever you download your view will help others find the show so they can enjoy 1566 01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:51,360 it too. On the Shaping Fire website, 1567 01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:55,040 you can also subscribe to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis 1568 01:38:55,150 --> 01:38:59,240 news exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. 1569 01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:01,920 You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. 1570 01:39:02,500 --> 01:39:03,760 Be sure to follow on Instagram. 1571 01:39:03,780 --> 01:39:08,680 For all original content not found on the podcast that's at Shaping Fire and at 1572 01:39:08,710 --> 01:39:10,360 shingle los on Instagram, 1573 01:39:10,820 --> 01:39:14,200 be sure to check out Shaping Fire YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, 1574 01:39:14,270 --> 01:39:15,880 farm tours, and cannabis lectures. 1575 01:39:16,430 --> 01:39:19,920 Does your company wanna reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? 1576 01:39:20,410 --> 01:39:23,520 Email hotspot@shapingfire.com to find out how. 1577 01:39:23,860 --> 01:39:27,760 Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shangle Los Los.