Fungus of all kinds are really becoming popular with a wider range of people.
Psilocybin is slowly starting to be legalized for research and therapy while
psilocybin microdosing has exploded in every corner of the country,
we are hearing reports of fungus that eats microplastics,
how Turkey tail helps cure cancer,
and how lion's main mushroom are pretty much your brain's best friend.
Of course, culinary mushrooms have been enjoyed by humans forever,
but we are seeing a huge resurgence in home and small farm growing of culinary
mushrooms,
meaning that rare non-commercial varieties are popping up at farmer's markets
and in the neighborhood trades. Last year,
I discovered that I totally loved wine cap mushrooms,
but I had never come across that craft mushroom until gifted it by a home
cultivator. Now I'm constantly searching for them. And finally,
the fungus in the soil is essential for all the food we eat and the flowers we
love, especially cannabis,
so many mushroom varieties touching our lives and being helpful in so many ways.
If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently
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you are listening to Shaping Fire. And I'm your host, Chango Los.
My guest today is Stephanie Garcia Mycologist.
Stephanie Garcia has a degree in botany and plant pathology,
and completed her master's program at the University of Hawaii in tropical
conservation biology,
focusing on below ground fungal diversity over varying environmental gradients
on Hawaii Island. After completing her masters,
she proceeded to tour Southeast Asia studying local plants and mushrooms,
and landed back in Oregon,
spending time between cannabis harvests and the Bureau of Land Management.
She now studies both Endo and Ecto Microrisal Fungi and their associations and
benefits to various plant hosts As quality compliance manager at Microrisal
applications.
Stephanie and her husband Emery are expecting their first child in just a couple
weeks. So we are especially glad that she chose to fit us in before that major
milestone. And if you listen closely,
you'll hear their dog's Norm and Betty in the background.
On today's episode of Shaping Fire,
we will make sure we are all on the same page regarding the differences between
mycelium, mycorrhiza, endo, Mica, and Ectomic Iza,
followed by a deeper discussion about mycelium.
Specifically during the second set, we will focus on Endo Mica,
its functions and how you can damage its functioning by inhibiting the symbiosis
taking place in the soil.
And we finished the episode with a wide ranging discussion of best practices for
creating a thriving environment for mycelium and mycorrhiza,
including Innoculants, proper watering pH, proper nutrition,
and the use of ground covers. Welcome to Shaping Fire, Stephanie.
Thanks for having me, Chango.
So let's start off with two bits of vocabulary that are misused all the time in
soil discussion. Mice and mycelium will be used,
you know, obviously the entire episode today,
but it isn't uncommon for folks to use the two words micro and
mycelium interchangeably and, and they're not the same thing.
So will you start by teasing those apart for us?
Certainly. Yeah, that's a, that's a good question.
I like that you point out that some people can get certain things confused like
that. So when we talk about mycelium,
we're actually talking about the vegetative structure of
a fungi.
So you could think of it as being analogous to plant roots.
So you could think of it as fungal roots.
So that's what the MyUM, that's what mycelium is.
So if you have a mushroom,
if you go mushroom hunting and you find a fruiting body,
like say you go for morels right now.
Cause it's a perfect time of year to be looking for morels,
there's gonna be an entire network of their root system underground.
Now, when we are talking about micro,
that's actually describing a symbiotic relationship.
It's a mutualism and it's occurring between the plant roots and those
fungi fungal roots.
So Mic Rae is,
is more of an activity than a physical
thing that, like, that has a, a name that's a noun. It's, it's, it's,
it's more active than that. It, it describes this relationship. It isn't,
it isn't necessarily like, oh, there's a mice right there. It's more like,
ah, those are two, that,
that is a host and a fungal network exhibiting Mike Rza
activity.
Yeah, yeah, that would be correct. So, you know, I mentioned the morale earlier.
That is a Microrisal fungi,
but you wouldn't call their root system a mic. Mm-hmm. , right?
So you could say a morale is a microrisal fungi,
but when you want to describe what,
how the morales mycelium is interacting with its plant host,
that would be the Microrisal symbiosis. So yeah,
micro is really describing the symbiosis.
It's used incorrectly all the time, , and like, you know,
earlier in my soil knowledge, I definitely was, um, uh,
you know, doing that myself. So, um, and while we're at it,
because even though during the first set we're going to discuss mycelium
networks, and then we're gonna focus more on mice and set two,
I am pretty sure that you're going to be talking about mice, um,
as part of your answers during set one. So we,
we should probably also get the,
the other key vocabulary that we want to tease apart too,
which is the difference between endo micro and ectomic.
Yeah. So Endo Micro ii, when you think of endo,
you think of inside, or that's a Latin, you know,
meaning for endo is inside. Um,
so really what it's describing is what's happening more on the cellular level
inside of the root. But if we go even more broadly,
endo micro fungi form symbiotic relationship with about
80 to 85% of, um, plant species.
So all of our agro, most of our agricultural crops, um,
a lot of our ornamental crops, all grasses.
So I call 'em more of our bread and butter of Microrisal fungi
because they associate with such a wide range of host plants.
Um, now let's go back down into the root. On the cellular level.
Hyphy will penetrate into the root, and it goes between cells,
but it also goes inside the cells.
And then inside the cell is really where the nutrient exchange is occurring.
And the endo,
they make a specialized structure called arcus.
So that's a site of nutrient exchange. Um,
most endo microrisal fungi also, uh,
form vesicles. That's a storage structure.
These fungi are really good, um,
at helping plants overcome drought type conditions. Vesicles,
they believe for, you know, one reason why they can do that. So,
uh, anyway, the endo microrisal fungi,
you'll also see them or hear them being referred to
as am f and that just stands for our muscular micro
eel. Fungi.
You can also hear or see them being referred to as vam,
that's vesicular our muscular micro e micro eel fungi.
So they don't refer them anymore,
refer to them anymore as the vam,
because some species don't produce those vesicles. So yeah,
we're getting really detailed there on the endo microrisal fungi.
But it is important to understand that these hfe of these types
of fungi, they go inside the cell and then the nutrient exchange is happening,
happening, um, within the cytosolic fluid. Now,
ectomic Isal fungi, on the other hand,
they don't associate with as broad of a host,
um, range.
So they're associating with maybe five to 10% of plant species,
primarily conifers, some hardwoods.
And then there are some agriculturally important plants that,
uh, form the ectomic isal symbiosis.
So then if we go down to that cellular level again,
and we compare it to the endo microrisal fungi,
the ecto microrisal fungi also make specialized
structures. They do also penetrate into the root,
but they also make, um, a mantle.
So mycelium will cover the outside of the root, kind of like a sock, right?
Say your foot is like the root.
So the mycelium covers the root on the outside,
and then it also penetrates inside the room.
But instead of carrying out the nutrient exchange in
an individual plant cell,
the mycelium travels around the cells and they call that a
heartache net.
And so this is another more specialized structure that they make.
They don't produce any type of arcus or vesicles.
Uh, so yeah, they're just,
they're doing all their nutrient exchange in between cells.
And, uh, since we're talking primarily about canvas cultivation and, uh,
the ecto is really only, uh, interacting with,
I think you said like 10 or 15% of plants, we're probably gonna be talking,
when we talk about mice today, we're,
we're going to be generally assuming we're talking about endo mice,
unless you point out otherwise, right?
Yeah, that's correct. Uh, cannabis doesn't associate with ectomic fungi,
so.
Right on. Well, that makes it easier today, . So, so, okay.
So that's why I wanted to start out there with the definitions of mycelium mice
and then, and then endo mice just for everybody's benefit. So with that said,
we will, we will, uh, jump back and talk, uh,
much more in detail about mice during set two, but, but here,
let's smooth on in right now to talking about mycelium networks to, um,
get a really good understanding on what those are. So,
so mycelium are the fleshy vegetative white strands that
form massive networks in the soil. We now know what does it consist of?
Like, what, what actually do, do the white strands,
what are they made of other than just generally fungus and,
and how are they made?
Hmm, interesting. Um, well,
fungal cell walls are made of chitin,
so that's really what they're composed of.
And they're made through myosis. I mean, you know,
they're growing just in the same way fresh,
fresh growth would occur from a plant, right?
So they're really exploratory, like you said,
most of them are more whiteish tannish in color. Um,
mycelium can consist of just one long tubular like structure,
and they can also have septa, which, um, divides,
divides this long tubular structure. Um.
And, and for folks who aren't familiar with myosis, um,
would you just explain that real quick.
? Sure. So I mean, that's a, it's reproduction, right? Mm-hmm.
, so we're basically having cell division occur. Um,
and then the DNA is being passed. There's a, there's, I mean, it's a pretty, uh,
technical process and it also depends on the species, right? But.
Even, even what you already said just kind of makes it clear, uh, uh, uh,
what I was trying to getting at is like, what is the, what is the,
the mycelium making machine? And the answer is itself is right by,
by cellular splitting, just making itself more of itself.
Right? Right.
Right on. So for, for those of us who, you know,
are transplanting our plants, or maybe we're, um, out, uh,
in the field collecting indigenous microorganisms or, um, or,
or whatever we're doing, um,
we will come across mycelium strands that are like a whole range of colors
from like the bright white, which I always think of as ohs.
Those look really healthy. And whereas some are, you know,
more of a whiteish gray or some are like a, a,
a whiteish beige are are, are these different, um,
strains of mycelium that are these different colors? Or does, or does, you know,
a healthy thriving mycelium?
Is it always white and,
and these colorations are signs of some kind of imbalance?
Yeah, that's a really great question. Um, yeah, it,
it is really species dependent. Um, you know,
morels for example, they,
they don't have this bright white necessarily mycelium,
especially when you have a men culture. Um, so I would say,
you know, that, yeah,
there may be some type of environmental condition that might make them this more
dull yellow, um, you know, maybe they're not the most healthy,
but also we have a lot of different colors of mycelium depending
on the species.
That's good to know too, because, um, I know, you know, as I said my question,
I thought that I needed it all to be bright and I should not judge my mycelium
necks were harshly just because they don't look bright. And cuz that could,
that could cause me to, uh, incorrectly diagnose this situation. Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
, mm-hmm. . So, um, if there are different, um,
strains of mycelium, um,
how do mycelium networks of different species interact?
Do they, do they, you know,
explore and then butt up to each other and then,
and then connect even though they're different species? Or are these,
are these mycelium networks of, of different strains, um,
uh, kind of wrapped around each other, but not necessarily connected?
That's another really great question. Chango ,
I'm glad you're full of 'em. . Uh,
so I thi I would say that's really species dependent.
We know in some microrisal fungi there is
competition mm-hmm. . So, um, you know,
I know of one researcher that works on Rza Pogon that is an ectomic isel fungi.
Um, but they'll be more competitive for their resources. So,
um, they don't necessarily, they may, you know,
they may just exist wrapped around each other, but really they're,
they're competing for resources. Um, so.
So, so in that case, um,
I think that most of us think about the mycelium networks as being these,
these nutrition transport networks, and they're connecting everybody.
And you know, in my mind, I go so far as to think, oh,
they're trying to help everybody get along,
but actually there is competition between my serial relationships.
So they are,
they are bonding with networks that they see as
allies and then,
and then turning a cold shoulder and not connecting to networks that they see
as competitive.
Yeah. You could think of it that way,
but one thing I do wanna just clarify is that, um, there are,
there are other,
there's another group of fungi that we're kind of forgetting about a little bit.
We're forgetting about our sap prophetic fungi.
So they're not necessarily creating a network between plants,
um, you know, amongst each other.
They're mycelium is really there to decay dead
organic matter, and they're the recyclers, right? I mean,
they're recycling the duff. And so those,
those are a little different in that they're creating their own little network
just so that they can eat more, right? So they can decay more,
and then eventually maybe they can fruit.
You know, I think you're, I think you're right.
That was good that you picked that up. I,
I definitely think that I was putting the responsibilities for mycelium
and sacro prophetic fungus into the same basket. Yeah,
that's good for me to tease those apart too. So, so, um, so the,
the mycelium networks, while I was picturing them being large, like,
like in, uh,
covering a wide space and therefore had this idea that they were also
going from plant to plant. I don't know exactly how I was picturing that, but,
um, but really, uh,
perhaps mycelium networks are a little bit more localized based on,
um, I don't know, the project or their,
the responsibility of that particular mycelium network.
Yeah, I like that. You can think of it almost like they're little project.
Cuz even thinking outside of the sap,
prophetic fun fungi that are decaying this dead organic matter,
we also have parasitic fungi, right?
So we know that those could spread from, um, you know, they,
those could certainly make a network and go from tree to tree,
but they could also be more localized just dependent on,
is their host available? Um, what can they infect, right?
Um,
where do they infect because we have other fungi that are primarily
existing on leaves that are causing damage there, right? Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm. . So, but yeah,
I think when we think about mycelium,
and one reason why I love micro isel fungi so much is that we really
think of them more as the protagonist.
And we wanna think of mycelium as being this just incredible thing and this
network that spreads, you know, between the trees and, like you say, try to,
you know, help everybody get along and distribute out nutrients really well. Um,
so I think when we think of my cial networks,
we really do think about the more beneficial kind. And that would be more,
you know, like the micro isel fungi mm-hmm. mm-hmm.
. Um, and if I tend to drift into giving, um,
credit to mycelium that's for SRO prophetic fungus, be,
be sure to call me out on it again,
because I don't want to be spreading the bro science. We're,
we're here to get it. Right. So.
, I mean, but those are great too because, you know, I mean,
we would have just meters and meters of duff in our forests and,
and there's also some very tasty s prophetic fungi,
so we don't wanna forget about those.
For for sure. All right. So, so let's talk about some of these tasks that, um,
that we rely on mycelium, uh, to do. So. So,
um, why don't you just in instead of me, like,
just kind of like trying to pull a list out of the air, um, you're,
you're the expert. So, so, uh,
let me just kind of hand you the mic and tell us a little bit about the,
the varied tasks that mycelium is doing, um, in the soil,
um, you know, as part of its role.
Sure, yeah. And I do just wanna say, you know, I'm,
I still don't consider myself an expert. I just consider myself, you know,
constantly, uh, trying to educate myself in the,
in this pursuit of knowledge specifically with fungi. So, um,
I appreciate you saying that, but, uh, you know.
You can be humble, but like we, we all, we all heard your,
your credentials at the beginning of the show and, and you're here cuz like,
you know, you're kind of the expert. So, so I,
I appre I appreciate your humility on it, but, uh,
I have a feeling you have all the information that we're looking for.
Well, I'll strive, I'll strive to meet those expectations. . Okay.
So you wanna know about the roles of mycelium mm-hmm.
within the soil, please. Okay. So I think,
I think mycelium, you know, it's main objective,
and it may be more of a selfish objective on its part,
is to gain enough resources to reproduce ,
right? That's gonna be the main goal. It's like, I'm gonna explore the soil,
I'm going to try to gain resources enough to take care of myself.
Um,
so I think that's one objective is that the mycelium
is getting what it needs to,
to go through its own life cycle. Mm-hmm. . Um,
I think another thing is just very exploratory. I think there's like,
let's say these side benefits of mycelium and what it's doing
within our soil. So for those mycelium to be,
um, exploring the soil, they're really contributing to soil structure,
um, to water infiltration,
which also helps preventing runoff and providing climate
resistance. So I think there's, um,
there's a big role for them there. Um,
if I can go back to my micro isel fungi for a moment. Mm-hmm. , uh,
our slar micro isel fungi,
they release a glycoprotein, it's called Guin.
And that is just this incredible protein that helps
to, um, aggregate soil.
And that's really fascinating. Not only for this,
um, you know, helping to keep soil structure and the water, water infiltration,
but it also can hold on to carbon when your
soil has more structure to it,
and then those nutrients are more available.
So I think that there's, um,
a really big role for mycelium to play in
some of this, um, nutrient cycling, excuse me.
We also,
we also know that some mycelium will actually
excrete,
secrete enzymes and that can help make a lot of different
nutrients more biologically available ones that wouldn't be otherwise.
And then it's, it allows, you know,
this soluble nutrients to actually be absorbed and then transported to the
plant. Um, so there's,
I think that these are some of, some of the main ones just right away that I'm,
that I can think of. Um.
Let's talk about the transportation of, uh, nutrition. So, uh,
I'm realizing now that of some of what I imagined,
um, mycelium networks doing,
which would be like moving nutrition between different
plants, that's probably a, a, uh,
a larger role than mycelium is doing. And that might be more of a,
a sap prophetic fungus, uh, role is,
is the mycelium going to be mostly, um,
moving nutrition from the surrounding soil environment and just
bringing it back to, um, the, the root zone, um,
as essentially to the Mike Rza, which is going to interact with the,
with the plant. Um, uh, so it's, it's kind of like,
it is, it is out searching for nutrition for its own,
um, uh, life benefit.
But then by doing that,
it is also bringing that nutrition back to the micro rise, which is,
which we will we'll discuss more in detail later,
is then is then interacting with the plant. I is,
is my range of where it's doing that nutrition work?
Do I have that right where it's a bit closer to the root zone?
Yeah, so I think that the sap prophetic fungi and the Mike Reil fungi,
they're really working together.
So the sap prophetic fungi that those fungi may be able to break down.
Um, you know, specifically more carbon than the microrisal fungi.
And as we know, microrisal fungi, they,
they're really associating with plants cuz they can't,
they're not able to access the carbon on their own. That's, that's the exchange.
Um, I, I'll save this for the next session really. But, um,
so let's say the sap prophetic fungi,
their primary role is gonna be decaying this dead organic matter, um, you know,
making carbon available for the plant,
but then the fungi or the micro isal fungi, they're,
they're more exploratory and they're actually able to deliver
the nutrients to the plant through their symbiosis, right? Mm-hmm.
. So the sap prophetic fungi,
they may make some of these nutrients biologically available,
but they don't really have that delivery mechanism unless they're very close to
the plant root zone.
So the micro isel fungi and their meial network is really incredible
because they can increase the root, um,
absorption zone. Like our plants can only reach so far mm-hmm. ,
um, mycelium is so much smaller, uh,
in size than a plant root. Right.
And then they can travel for so much longer than our plant roots can.
So they can really become exploratory in the soil,
uh, trait areas that our plants cannot,
and then they're able to access nutrients that the plant isn't,
and then their mycelium is like a little highway mm-hmm. , um,
of nutrients going to the plant. Um,
I do also wanna mention, which I just think is interesting,
that micro isel fungi, um, you know,
there's evidence to suggest that they've evolved from sap prophetic fungi.
So some microrisal fungi still do hold the genes
that can do these other types of breakdown of nutrients.
Um, so I just think that's really interesting because
some microrisal fungi we say are obligate,
they have to have a plant hose cuz they can't access their own carbon.
But then we know some microrisal fungi are not obligate
and they can, they still maintain some,
some of these genes so that they can exist without the plant host. Mm-hmm.
.
So, so, um, you know, we're big supporters of the soil of the soil food,
web ex explanation for looking at soil here.
What role does mycelium play in the soil assisting
microbe communities and, and other life in the soil? Because I'm,
I'm guessing that it isn't just a relationship between, you know, uh,
uh, breaking down nutrition and transporting nutrition towards the root zone.
Um, I'm, I'm guessing that, that all the inhabitants of the, um,
rhizosphere have got varying relationships with mycelium that are beneficial.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah, certainly. Well, we did talk, you know,
briefly about soil structure mm-hmm.
and water infiltration. Right. And this hyphy, um,
you know, going through the soil and allowing that
infiltration of water and then just helping the soil actually hold the water.
Right.
And then we did speak a little bit about how when you have
this really more positive, let's say soil structure,
it can hold on, um, to carbon more readily.
And so we know that, um,
our soil organic carbon is food for microbes, right?
So if you have an increased amount of soil carbon,
you typically see an increase in, in the microbial activity.
So I think mycelium plays , it's like cyclical, right? Mm-hmm.
. So they grow and they explore and then carbon's held onto,
and then these microbes are like, oh, this is awesome. You know, I'm gonna,
we're going to, there's gonna be more microbes cuz we have more food. And,
and then they thrive. And then the soil just becomes, um, just more,
it's just more and more healthy, right?
Right. Every, everybody gets fed when mycelium is doing its job.
Right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
. Um,
so I know that some people talk about how mycelium can help remediate
the soil that's been contaminated by a whole range of things.
But specifically, uh, I'm curious about, um, uh, uh, uh,
pathogenic fungus like that, that, that cause like, you know, um,
fusarium root rot and things like that can,
can our ally mycelium clean up pathogens like
that in the soil?
Yeah, that is such a great question. Um, you know,
I told you I really like the protagonist fungi. So my ,
my plant pathology ISN isn't as up to speed,
but it just made me think of, um, you know, there's,
there are products out there that are, they're, well,
those are more bacterial that are kind of fighting the fungi. Mm-hmm.
, I'm trying to think of these, this, um, activi, you know,
that's a product that, um,
but it's bacterial and that's fighting off the fungi. I don't know.
I think that's such a good question. But I do remember this one little project,
uh,
I did when I was living in Hawaii with a friend and he was really into IMO four
s mm-hmm. . And, um, you know,
his knowledge is so much greater than mine,
so I'm not gonna try to explain anything like that.
But we were traveling around to these coffee plantations that had this,
um, pathogenic fungi that occurred on the coffee leaf,
and we made a solution of the immo four.
And it's hard to say exactly which component maybe was fighting, but we,
we just sprayed this on the coffee, um, you know,
trees that had this fungal infection and came back and scored it.
And the ones that we scored,
there was a significant impact and reduction of that fungal infection.
Now we know Immo four s don't just contain fungi, right? So,
um, you know, it was a fun little project, but still kind of hard to say.
And I'm not really sure of the research on that.
Yeah, that's that's fair enough. And, and I,
I think that that your answer points to two things, number one,
for folks who are interested in, in, well cannabis, but, but,
uh, fungal networks in general, um, and are just kind of coming up. Um,
you know, and, and,
and through university there is a lot of research around cannabis and soil
science and fungus to be had, you know, this is,
this is a great time to be become, you know,
have an interest in cannabis and become and becoming out of school. And then,
and then the second thing that your answer points out is, um, you know,
we're always talking about the power of, of, of indu in industrial,
indigenous microorganisms here mm-hmm. , and Im oh four, uh,
you know, while it has got a significant representation of fungus in it,
it's this magical combination of nature that just,
just rebalances things like in, in your example. And, uh, and you know,
so many of us, uh, container based cannabis growers, um,
we struggle with with fusarium.
So anytime I talk to somebody who focuses their work on, on the root zone,
I kind of ask everybody, Hey, do you have a good solution for fusarium? Mm-hmm.
. And, and, and, you know, everybody kind of says the same thing.
Like, like, like, you know,
the research hasn't actually found a really good one yet.
And generally you should just replace your soil. But,
but this is the first time that Im o four has been brought up. And,
and that makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting if, if,
if somebody were to have, you know, say say like, like an installed,
you know,
large scale bed where it would be a real pain in the
butt to replace the soil unlike, you know, like a 20 gallon pot or something,
which is really easy mm-hmm. , um, you know, doing a,
doing a significant application of Im O four might be one,
might be one fusarium solution. So, alright, well,
I don't wanna get too distracted off on the fusarium thing, but, but while we,
while we're there, um, you know, I figured we might as well hit it. So,
so alright, great. So, um, so,
so now that we are understanding what the Mycelium networks are doing and that
they are, are breaking down nutrition and bringing it back to the,
the rhizosphere, where, where, um, I guess I'll say for the moment,
it gets handed off to Mike Rza that does the exchange with the plant that we
will pick up on set two.
So let's go ahead and take our first short break and then when we come back,
we will start talking about Mike Rza.
You are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Mycologist
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get anywhere else. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I'm your host Shangle Los, and my guest today is Mycologist Stephanie Garcia.
So, um, during the first set,
we learned all about mycelium and that it is also not sap prophetic fungus
and all of the wonderful things that mycelium do. Um, first for itself,
then for the plant, but then also for everybody else who hangs out in the,
in the root zone.
So now we're gonna talk specifically about the symbiotic relationship between,
um, mycelium networks and plants that are expressed through,
uh, through mica. So, so we touched on Mica a bit at the,
at the beginning of the first set to,
to separate Endo Micro and Ectomic, um,
based on how they, um, um, interact differently with,
with the, with the root zone, with the roots themselves. Um,
let's start with how does, um,
Mike Rza colonize the plant root system
of cannabis? From, from what I understand, y you know,
there is a point when a, when a plant is, I don't know,
new or young where, um, it,
it is not com it is not fully colonized by Mike Rise,
uh, um, by B by Fungus. That is,
is is boy, it's hard to talk about it once, once Mike Raza is not a noun.
Once it's a description of a symbiotic relationship. It's a lot,
it's a different way to talk about it. So, so how does,
how do you talk about it, Stephanie? I didn't realize , like, like,
like how do you talk about it in the, in, in, in, as,
as a professional who talks about this all day?
Yeah, I mean, I guess you could, you know,
instead of maybe just focusing on the mica or mic, you know,
Mike Fungi, you can say the Mike Hy or the Fungal Hyphy,
you know.
I see. So using the word mica as a, as a, as a description of,
of, of, of the, the type of fungus. So, so it'd be appropriate to say,
um, you know, Stephanie, uh,
would you explain to us how mic rza funk colonized the
plant root system of cannabis?
Yeah, yeah. All right. I'll.
Take, I'll take, I'll take that, absolutely.
And we'll go with that. . Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, sure. So,
so when we think about the beginning of the
symbiosis, we first wanna ask ourselves, how is this high fq growing?
Where is this coming from? Right? Um,
so now in nature,
hyphy is the greatest, let's say, propag that we have.
And so when we say Propag, we're talking about, um,
if we think about cannabis, a propag for cannabis, is it seed, right? Mm-hmm.
. Uh, when we think about fungi,
there can be a few different types of propag,
and specifically our vascular micro isel fungi.
So in nature,
hyphy or mycelium is the greatest propag in nature.
So we can start with, um, we can start with fragments of mycelium.
We can start with spores.
That's another thing that would be considered a propag, right?
We're trying to propagate this, um,
life form and however it propagates it should be able
to then become an adult or, you know,
go past this vegetative stage. So we've got, um,
we've covered the mycelium, the spore,
and then our vascular mirial fungi are interesting in that pieces of
root,
or we can call root fragments that previously contained or were
colonized by the ar micro isel fungi can
also act as a propag.
So some of these structures that are inside the root, like hfe,
uh, they're produced within the root. Uh, those can also act as propag.
So if you were, um,
incorporating some microrisal, uh,
inoculum into your gross system,
you're gonna have some of these propag you put, right? Mm-hmm. ,
and you're probably going off this label recommendation. Uh,
to my understanding,
there aren't any products currently in the US that
claim, uh, mycelium as a propag.
And I think that has something to do more with shelf life, um,
possibly with how you quantify it, you know, how it can be regulated,
things like that. So, um, primarily if you were to like,
let's say get some microrisal inoculum and look at it under the microscope,
you're gonna see spores and you'll probably see pieces of root.
So you're gonna start with that, right? And then from that,
the mycelium will grow, um, that's gonna be growing,
you know, within your soil. There's a lot of research about,
you know,
the signaling that goes on for these fungi and how
did they actually connect with the plant root, right? Um,
that's really fascinating stuff because way back when it was
really understood or thought, you know, believed that, um,
the plant regulated the symbiosis.
So we know that plants release through exudates.
Um, we know that there's a lot of other types of biochemical signaling going on,
but now some of the people researching this signaling
are realizing that it's a, it's a lot more complex than we thought initially.
And that potentially the fungi has a little bit more say in how it connects.
Mm-hmm. , I used to think of it like, you know,
the plant is there, the fungus approaches,
like it's trying to get into a party and the plant's like, okay,
you know, you can bring in nutrients, you could bring in beverages for me, or,
you know, whatever it is. Yeah.
That's how I was taught too. Yeah, absolutely.
Right? Like, come on in. Um,
and why would the plant not want to accept that?
It's almost like an insurance policy for the plant,
that it's gonna be getting enough nutrients and, um, you know,
water and things like this. But now there's some, you know,
research going on to say that there's, um,
it's a lot more complex communication between the fungi and the plant.
Um, but we do know that root exudates are released.
I think we're still really trying to understand root exudates.
I know currently there's about a hundred thousand compounds that have been
identified, um, you know, that roots are putting out there,
but we know that they play a role in the germination of spores.
Um, and then for that ultimate connection, right?
Mm-hmm. . So yeah, once the,
once the mycelium approaches the root,
there's a very complex conversation that occurs and then,
um, ultimately they're able to penetrate into, into the root system,
and then they continue to grow.
And it's actually a physical penetration. It, it's,
that's not just like symbolic. It actually, you know,
because of the size relationship, uh,
the mycelium strands can actually enter
the root itself, not just the root zone.
Yep. That is correct.
And it was even just today we were looking for these, uh,
special structures that they make when they penetrate apo,
and it's a just small piece of tissue and it anchors
the mycelium to the root. It's a, but yep, it,
it completely penetrates that and just continues to,
to explore.
You know, this idea of, of, uh, these,
these endo micro iza expending some part of their life, um,
inside the plant root. Um, totally reminds me of the,
of the bacterial rise aphagia cycle that we discussed in detail with, uh,
Jeff Lowenfels back on shaping fire 96. Um, you know, are, are,
are, are, are these two, I don't know,
areas of science related in science at all,
or is it just in my head because they're just two different things that enter
the plant for part of their life?
You know, I think everything's connected in, you know, in ways like that.
And I know that there's a lot of research on now what their, uh,
I don't know if this is really a term that's been coined,
but micro iza helper bacteria. Mm-hmm. Um,
so I think things are definitely working synergistically. And, um,
so yeah, I think that that's a fair comparison. Right on.
So let's talk about one of the, one of the, the,
the roles that the micro ISE play, uh, in this,
in this relationship with the plant. Um, uh,
the first one that I ever learned about,
and I I'm certainly not suggesting I I know a lot about it, is, is the,
the sugar water for the sugar and water for minerals exchange.
Um, and would you wa walk us through that, that like cornerstone process?
Yeah, sure. So that, that really is at the heart of this exchange,
at the heart of this symbiosis.
So we talked a little bit in the earlier segment about, um,
how micro isel fungi,
they are reliant on the plant host for their carbon.
And that's all coming through photosynthetic through that photosynthetic
process. And, um, so that's really what the fungus wants from the plant.
Uh, we know that some fungi can exist, some of the micro isel fungi can exist,
um, without the plant host,
but primarily most of these species are dependent on their
carbon acquisition through photos, syn, photosynth, invades, mm-hmm.
. Um, so that's really what they're after.
And the plant is willing to engage in this relationship
because they know and, you know,
they somehow know that, uh, the fungi is able to deliver different,
and it's not just the, you know, more minerals or micronutrients,
but even macronutrients, right? Mm-hmm. . So, um, they,
they know that the,
if they allow this relationship to occur that they're also going to benefit in
this other way, um, that maybe they wouldn't be able to,
to do as well on their own.
I, I guess when somebody shows up with all of these, you know, quality inputs,
you, you're all, you get used to it, right? .
Right? Yeah. And why would you not, why would you say no? It's like mm-hmm.
. Yeah, let's go .
So, um, Ken does,
does micro rza have the ability to live in the soil
without a root or something of some, a root or other,
uh, in order to do this, uh, symbiotic exchange? Like, you know,
it might not be cannabis, but perhaps it's, you know, you know,
a dandelion or something else.
But can the microrisal fungus
survive without a root?
Um, there are many
species that are obligate micro isol fungi,
so they have to have a plant host to carry out their life cycle. Now,
if they didn't have access to a plant, couldn't they go dormant? Certainly.
I see. That's what we have. Um, how long would that last? I'm not sure.
Um, but yeah, we know that there are many fungi,
many Mike Grisel fungi that they just simply cannot carry out their lifecycle
without their plant host. So they're gonna need that root system. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
.
When while preparing and doing my background research for the episode,
it was really interesting to read. Um, all the different,
I'll just throw 'em, I guess,
in a big basket of processes that Mike Rizal fungi,
um, are able to do. Like, you know, at, at, you know,
that cornerstone sugar waters for mineral exchange.
I'm kind of like picturing this, this micro rise in the middle,
like, you know, kind at acting like a, like a bartering agent, you know? Mm-hmm.
Going, Hey, you got those there, you got those here, I'll give those here. Okay.
All right. Go. You know? Mm-hmm. kinda like, kinda like, you know,
directing traffic almost. Right? Right. And, but then,
but then as you continue to read, it's like, oh, also Mike Rza can,
can do this chemical, uh, transition and then also if it finds this,
it can do this. And like the, the more I read, I'm like it,
Mike Rza has got this whole toolbox of,
of,
of biological transitions and trades, I guess,
that it can do to make sure that the signals
and the nutrition and,
and the water and everything is all being transferred back and forth.
And I gotta tell you that, that it,
it kind of makes them pretty badass because they're essentially making their own
tools, right? There's all these different things that they can do.
Would you explain some of the ways that micro rza defends
the cannabis plant itself from like disease and pathogens
and, and other things that might do the plant harm?
Yeah. Yeah. It really is fascinating when you, when you think about 'em,
and it's one reason I just think the kingdom fungi is so incredible and why we
do need more people to step into the field, right?
And how it also, like when you start reading it,
it really does start to read like it's intelligent, you know? Mm-hmm.
, like, it really like, like it's really amazing,
especially when you like see like a TikTok or something that shows fungus,
like beating puzzles and stuff. And it's not like, damn, you know? So anyway,
uh, plea please. How, how,
how does the mic Eliza actually defend the cannabis plants from diseases and
pathogens by using these various methods? It has?
Yeah. Yeah, there's a few things that come to mind right away. I mean,
I would say that overall, if you have a plant that's receiving,
you know, more water, um,
more nutrients than the plant's able to acquire on its own,
you're the plant health overall is just going to be better, right? Mm-hmm.
. So you're just gonna have a more robust plant, um,
a plant that's maybe more resistant to an infection. Um,
things like that.
So that's one thing that just comes to mind right away is that if your plant
overall is more healthy,
then it's going to be able to fight off different things that might come its
way. Um, one thing that is, um,
pretty well researched is tolerant to not only
things like saline soils, but also, um,
heavy metals. So if for some reason, um,
that is happening for you, um, the fun,
the fungi,
they can actually mitigate how that is delivered
to the plant and essentially hold it within its mycelium.
So I think, so.
Like, so like pockets it away so that away from the mechanics
of the plant mm-hmm. so that the plant is shielded from it.
Yeah. Wow. And I think, and it's interesting, I mean,
outside of cannabis growing or, um, you know, things like that,
there's a lot of saline soils and, you know, in our world. So, um,
that's pretty fascinating. Uh,
we've done some experiments where we we're just straight feeding and plant salt
water mm-hmm. and the, you know,
micro isel colonized plants are just, they just look so good.
And so we haven't done too much on the heavy metals, but there's,
there's quite a bit of research on heavy metal uptake and mitigation of those
heavy metals. Um,
so I think that that's really an interesting aspect and things that they
can do for your plants.
I know that there's other research on prevention of infection, um,
and I,
I don't know if that's just due to an increase in overall plant health or if
there's some other mechanism behind that that we don't fully understand yet.
Right on. So, um, looking at the next question I have for you,
I have a feeling that this is going to be, uh, one that you say, ah,
[inaudible] that's for Safra Prophetic Fungus, but, uh,
I'm gonna go ahead and ask you anyway because I'm super curious of the answer
even if it is Safra prophetic. So, so, so I was gonna ask you that, you know,
cannabis cultivators love ground cover and companion plants for lots of reasons.
One being that, you know,
the plants can all talk to each other and trade nutrients and, you know,
create pest defense. And then I was gonna say,
would you explain how mycelium, you know,
processes a signaling system? But that's probably not mycelium in retrospect,
is it?
Um,
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding on the signaling system between the
plants.
Yeah. I'll give you an example. Like, like, like we,
we hear about when groups of plants,
even if they're different varieties are planted together, um, uh, uh,
you know, that an aphids will attack one, uh,
the plants will signal to the other local plants that it's getting chomped on by
aphids.
So the individual plants can use whatever its strategy is to not get aphids.
Oh, sure, sure. Um, yeah, I don't really know about that.
I wouldn't necessarily give all this a prophetic fungi credit for that, uh,
right.
On. But it definitely tells me that like, you know,
since you study Mike Rza and you don't know this particular thing, that,
that I definitely have put this activity in the wrong bucket.
Well, I know that there is some signaling of infection from
tree to tree that are colonized, you know, by fungi into, you know,
increased defenses or transfer nutrients over here.
Cuz now this plant is infected.
So I know that there's communication in that way. Um,
so I wouldn't put it past that. I just don't know if I could speak to that.
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Um, so, um, let's see here.
So the, the more we talk today,
the more I get this sense that mycelium is more about
transport and, and breaking down nutrition and,
and moving it on a highway towards the root zone. Um,
but when the nutrition, but, but when the nutrition gets to the root zone,
the, the mic rza, um,
Symbiosis, um,
with the plant kind of takes over and,
and does the actual barter transmutation or process of, of,
of bringing that nutrition into the plant through this mutualistic
relationship. Um,
and then the plant is then, you know,
sending the nutrients that it's sharing back down to the micro rise
to the micro rise activity
mycelium, and then that goes back down the line.
What I would like to know is there,
is there anything physiologically different at that
connection point between the mycelium
and the plant root? Um, where where we would say,
oh, uh, that is micro, that's microrisal fungus,
you can tell by looking at it versus does it just look like regular
mycelium that's just doing a different activity?
Um, so when you're looking at the mycelium itself Yeah, yeah.
You know, I don't think I could really tell a difference. Um.
That's really, that's really interesting because the way that all of us, I mean,
and, and we, cannabis people, we talk about a lot of stuff wrong. Right. Um,
but, but it, it, we always talk, we talk about, you know,
microrisal fungi as if it is like, like, you know,
an a an absolutely different type of type of fungus. And, and the more we talk,
the more that I realize that that kind of as a, as a, as an industry,
we talk about it wrong.
Hmm. Now I will say with, um, like ectomic, IAL fungi,
we talked a little bit about this mantle of mycelium that covers the root
system. Mm-hmm. ,
you can certainly find roots like that and you can know for
sure like this is mycelium that is from,
this is an ectomic ial fungi, right? Mm-hmm. ,
it's very obvious where the endo microrisal fungi or amf,
that's a little bit more tricky because they don't make this like mantle.
It's like this mat of mycelium over the root system.
Um, so there is that, you know, I just like kind of had that thought in there,
but mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean,
if you saw this mat of mycelium next to your plant and next to the plant
roots, and that would be hard for me to know unless I went,
I collected some roots and then I went through the process of clearing the
pigmentation, staining it, right.
And then visualizing it under the scope.
Right on. Well, oh, go ahead. I didn't mean, I thought thought you were done.
Go ahead.
No, pretty much there was just, you know, to make sure that this is,
this was,
this was the micro isel fungi that was responsible for all that
other mycelium I saw, but to distinguish it, yeah.
I think would be kind of challenging. Right.
On. Thank you. All right. So, um,
so to to to to end this second set, um,
I just wanna ask you one, uh,
ectomic question because when I read this preparing for the show,
it caught me way off guard.
And I would like to learn more about this if you know about it.
I read that Ectomic have been known to lure spring
tales to obtain nitrogen from them.
How the heck does that happen, ?
I don't know. I don't know anything about that,
but I'm certainly gonna look into that after this.
Have you ever heard, outside of this particular example, have you ever, um,
uh, you know, come across examples of, of Mike Rae, you know,
acting like they are, are, are, are trapping anything like that? I mean, when,
when we learned how like, you know, you know, aphids farm and things like,
or No, no, it's the, the ants farm, the, the aphid larva. Like that's,
that's some really interesting stuff to happen at that, that level of biology.
Right? And so, so have you heard, you know,
of any other examples of Mike Raza doing that sort of thing?
You know, it makes me think of like cortis and how that can drive, um,
certain insects, like it can take over the neurological system,
drive them to the top of the canopy, um,
eventually consume them completely. Uh,
I haven't ever heard that with the EC echos, uh,
but I do know that ETOs have a lot more claims, um, to prevent, like,
let's say insect or bry. I don't know if that's just because that mantle is,
you know, covering the root system.
So it's like this physical shield of defense for the plant. Mm-hmm.
. Um,
but just knowing that there are other mechanisms like the
cor deceptions, you know, I'm kind of a romantic when it comes to fungi, though.
I'm like, they can do anything. Right. So I'm,
I'm definitely curious about, about what you read there,
and now I wanna look into that, but it's not something I'm really aware of.
Right on. Well, I got, I got it, uh, uh,
just from a article I found through Wikipedia. So it it's there if you want it,
you know, it, and it's really interesting too, to, uh,
to look at all the different tools that the Micro rza has. You know, it's got,
it's got different processes. It's got,
it's got barters that it can be in the middle of to get what it needs to get
done. Um, you know, it's got, it's got, you know, like, like the, the,
the soil version of like the, you know, chemical signals and, and what,
you know, and smells, I think of terpenes. They may or may not be root terpenes,
but, but the idea of like all these, all these different tools, it's got, I,
I imagine like, oh yeah, the ectomic is, you know,
excreting some chemical that, that spring tails love.
And then when it gets close enough, I imagine like, how the hell does a, how,
how, how does fungus move fast enough to catch a spring tail? Right. You know?
Right. But again, you already said you don't know, so it's,
it's hard to not wonder though, you know? Well.
It, it kind of just reminds me of, um,
enzymes that are released, right? They're,
they are these types of like digestive enzymes, you can think of 'em like that,
um, to break down the, you know,
non biologically available nutrients. Mm-hmm. . So, but yeah,
when you think about how slow the fungi move, , which is, you know,
one reason that I like 'em, they just like, stay put. Right. But, um, but yeah,
that's, it's a good question. And yeah, we'll have to, we'll,
we'll have to try to get somebody that's listening in to, uh,
enlist in a PhD project on this.
Right on. Excellent. All right. So let's go ahead and take our second, uh,
commercial break. We will be right back. You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is my college Stephanie Garcia.
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Shose,
and my guest today is Mycologist Stephanie Garcia.
So here we are in the third set. During the first set, we, we talked about, uh,
mycelium networks and, and the roles they do and don't play in the soil.
And then we talked about micro symbiosis between the mycelium and
the plant, and all the myriad tools that, um, micro iza,
um, have got in the toolbox to be able to,
to do all the various processes that they're responsible for. Well,
here in set three,
we're gonna talk about supporting mycelium and the micro iza symbiosis,
um, in your garden. So we're,
we're gonna talk about some best practices and some,
maybe some less than best practices. So, so Stephanie, you know,
today we've been mostly talking about living soil because that's mostly what
shaping fire, you know, talks about as a show.
But lots of cannabis growers use soilless mediums like,
like Cocoa Quar and Pete or Rockwell. Um,
do mycelium networks grow in these other non-living soil mediums?
Yeah. Yeah, they certainly can.
Um, is it the, so, alright,
so you say they can, so, so do they,
because you don't have as complex of a biological environment
in some of these soilless mediums as you would have in living
soil. Um,
do they present themselves differently or are there only particular strains of
mycelium that can take to that environment? Um, uh, maybe I'm wrong,
but it just seems to me that like with, with, um,
so much less of the biology that happens in living soil that's not in
cocoa, Pete and Rockwell, that there would be some kind of, um,
differences between how, um, mycelium and micro iza present themselves.
But, but perhaps it's not.
Yeah. You know, I think one thing we've done,
we've done a few hydroponic studies, um, not with cannabis,
but I know that there have also been some hydroponic studies in cannabis with,
um, with micro isel fungi. And, um,
I know that they're,
they're able to establish in that type of system and maybe,
um, you know, maybe they're not as reliant on the nutrients,
uh, because they're really communicating with the plant root system. Mm-hmm.
. Um, I know in these studies that I've read about with cannabis,
that they, um,
they've shown to increase plant vigor. And so,
um, yeah, I would think that they would act somewhat different.
But as far as the benefit to the plant, um,
these studies suggested that they were, you know,
they were still able to perform mm-hmm. .
Mm-hmm. . So I wanna ask about, uh, water and, uh,
mycelium networks again, but not like what we talked about, uh, water earlier,
about, about how mycelium helps create good soil structure,
which allows the water to get through it. And, and how by it retaining water,
it helps the plant, you know, um, you know, not, not, uh,
dry out in drought conditions. It does all these really good, um,
water retention aspects. I wanna talk more about, uh, uh,
we as cultivators watering the plant. Um, I can imagine that,
um, you know, like anything,
even water that is helpful can become dangerous if it's given too much of it.
And I imagine that if we, you know, over water,
it'll cause the mi mycelium networks to rot. And then if we underwater,
um, you know, maybe they'll, they'll, you know, dry out and cyst up.
So now they're not working either. And so as cultivators,
we kind of want to get this sweet spot somewhere in the middle where we're
providing enough water for everything to thrive,
but not enough to throw the mycelium network out of balance.
So do you have any advice around that for us?
Yeah, sure. So I think one thing to consider is the,
the micro isel fungi, they're, they're actually really good at, um,
helping the plants resist drought, right?
So there's a lot of mechanisms they have where the micro isly helps
store the water, um, they can also explore for it.
So it's not, I think,
as big of an issue for them to be a little bit under watered
mm-hmm. , right? Um, they seem to perform,
the plants seem to perform really well with the reduction in water. Um,
I know there's been a lot of research and we've done a little research, um,
with the group I'm with, um, on watering amount.
And some people would suggest you don't have to water as much if you, you know,
have this microrisal association going. Um,
not really sure how people would feel about that reducing their watering
and everything like that. But, um,
I think that if they have these root system systems
established, then, um,
they're just really well equipped to face that, um,
you know,
the stresses of drought and they can bounce back even if water becomes less and
less available.
I think that's a really good example of, of why, um, mature,
uh, soil environments like whether it's a, in a, in a pot or a bed or, or, uh,
like a raised bed or something that, that mature soils with,
with lots of fungal networks that are mature
are just really going to give you a lot more of a buffer as a cultivator. Um,
because, um, it,
it's more flexible than a pot that we, that we, we,
we just mixed some soil and threw it in and,
and put our clone in there and,
and now that pot is going to be, uh,
have much fewer defenses than a mature pot that's packed with mycelium
networks.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And you know,
even thinking about this overwatering,
just like we talked about some of the, um, you know,
saline soil and the heavy metal or, you know,
heavy metal uptake mitigation,
the mycelium can also help with uptake, mitigation of water.
So say you're over watering, um,
I think mycelium is really good at holding that and just helping to deliver
this like, really nice amount of water to the plant. Um,
now I'm not saying you can over water,
but mycelium is just gonna take care of it. You know,
we have to be conscientious of that as well.
But your bandwidth of success is going to be wider with more mycelium.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, uh, two more, or or another question about water quality. Um, does, does,
um,
does the pH water or how much mineral content it has on it have any impact
on the mycelium networks?
Yeah, I mean, they don't, you know, they're,
they're similar to other things that we grow where they,
they kind of want that neutral pH, right? Mm-hmm. . Um,
we do see responses if they have a really low pH or really high pH that
they don't colonize and they don't perform very well.
I've had this idea, which, um, is not scientific just based on observation,
um, that, uh, I, I wonder whether or not high mineral water,
um,
would be more difficult for mycelium to transport because of its high
mineral nature. I think of it as like chunky water mm-hmm.
and, and perhaps the mycelium either needs to a,
separate out the, the,
the minerals that are in the water or b just refuses to use it. Um,
do you have anything to offer on this, on this idea of mineral water?
Yeah,
the only thing I would imagine is if I was the fungal hyphy
or the, you know,
if I was the mycelium in there and the water was too chunky for me to deal with,
I would probably try to secrete some enzymes to break it down. Oh yeah.
To make it easier to transport. Um, yeah,
it's an interesting theory mm-hmm. .
So after we break up this soil, say for example, uh, you know,
we tend to, um, encourage, um, you know, no-till as a general idea.
But, you know,
sometimes we're in positions where we just wanna refresh a pot and we wanna,
we wanna pop out the soil and we wanna break it up and maybe we amend it and
then, and then maybe, maybe we're putting it in a new pot cuz our,
our pots are getting old and janky mm-hmm. .
And so the soil is aged soil and it, and,
and until we broke it up,
it had a pretty complex mycelium network. Um,
but then we broke it up. And so now we've got all these, um, uh,
propag strands, right? Mm-hmm. ,
and you were telling us earlier how any one of those strands can, you know,
start a new, um, a new network.
How long would you suggest that it's going to take from the,
the day that I pop out the soil and break it up and amend it and put it back
into a pot until those, um,
uh, pieces of mycelium, you know, find each other and get themselves,
uh, rea associated and then are functioning and doing their job again?
So, and is in this scenario where, um,
thinking of you've replanted a plant, there's a plant in there.
Yeah. There, they'll, they'll there's a cannabis start in there, is the idea.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So this is a,
this is a great question. Um, I know that if we're growing these,
um, fungi in vitro culture, so if we're in the lab doing this,
this can take a couple weeks, two to three weeks before the plant or Yeah.
Before the plant and the fungi come together and create that symbiosis.
Um, in this one study I'm thinking about,
and it was with cannabis, it, it was about,
it was suggested that it's about six weeks,
but that there were these benefits that were noticed even
ahead of that time, right? So when we run our bioassays,
we usually let it go eight weeks. And that,
that's the timeline that we've stuck with to see this was a really good
colonized root system, right? So, you know,
we know that in those lab conditions, everything is like perfect. You know,
we have this spore right next to this root organ culture and
it's connecting, like we're putting it right in this like perfect condition,
right? And we can see that in a couple weeks. Um,
we run those bioassays for eight weeks.
We've have a study here that says six weeks. So, um,
it's a little more challenging if you have something that doesn't go very long.
Like some of our hydroponic studies, for example, we we're looking at lettuce.
Well, after a month of growing lettuce hydroponically, it's time to harvest it,
right? Mm-hmm. .
So it was really hard for us to find really good colonization throughout and all
of the, like this huge root biomass that it produced.
So yeah,
I think we generally tell people to that you wouldn't see any
type of effects for, you know, three or four weeks mm-hmm. . Um,
so that's.
So that's exactly what I was going for. Yeah. And,
and the follow up is I really think that this makes a case that if we are
gonna do any kind of that rejuvenation of pots where we're gonna be breaking up
mature pots, mending 'em, maybe recoiling some,
and then putting 'em back in that, um,
we really want to do that either much earlier in the
spring or even the prior fall. And in, in either case,
either add like a, a small cover crop, a love of small plants or,
or maybe like a or maybe like comfy or something to be a placeholder for our
cannabis plant so that by the time, um, you know,
end of may comes and we want to start, uh,
planting our cannabis starts into the soil.
That that work of reconnecting all of the meial strands,
um, has already been done because as, as you and I are, are discussing it,
you know, a lot of people will, will, you know, break up the pots,
do the amendment, fill up the pots, and then,
and then put their cannabis plants in there within a week mm-hmm. .
And that tells me that through at least, um, you know,
most of their veg period,
that plant is living in a sub optimum living environment because
the mycelium networks are broken at that point.
Yeah, absolutely. And when you think about some of these, like, you know, we're,
we're more in this like agricultural,
I mean more in this agricultural type industry.
And when we talk about regenerative ag mm-hmm. , I mean,
that's the thing, you know, you're trying for minimal disturbance, right?
No till or strip tillage. But if you can't do that, okay, you can't do that.
Right. But like what you're saying makes so much sense because you can,
you know, do your amendments, do whatever, you know, you're,
you're thinking you really need to do to the soil and then plant that cover
crop, let it sit there. I mean,
having living roots even with your crop, right?
Relieving this type of compaction and things like that, um,
it makes sense. It's same thing with like, um, crop diversity, right? Mm-hmm.
or like a rotation, right? You kind of want to get away from that.
I've always planted this one plant and this soil, um,
it takes the nutrients different right?
And then try to replenish it with like a type of cover crop. Um, you know,
one thing I was thinking when you were saying this was,
and asking these questions and something that just kind of came to mind is it's
really interesting that we will,
we'll let these bioassays go for eight weeks, right?
But there's been so many experiences I've had where
I inoculate in transplant and I've seen a clear
impact of a reduction of transplant shock.
So it's, I'm not really sure exactly what that's due to.
Is this some type of carrier effect? Um,
does somehow the plant know this fungus is there and they're releasing some
other types of root exudates?
But that's something that I've witnessed quite a bit and applying microrisal
fungi and this inoculum is you see this transplant, um,
shock like resistance mm-hmm. .
And that's just something interesting to me.
Cuz if we don't see that symbiosis occurring for however long it might
not occur for, but then we're still seeing some type of positive impact.
It just makes me wonder what else is going on. Yeah. You know, below the ground.
For sure. It does for sure. Again, more,
more room for research for the people coming up .
Absolutely.
Um, are there specific soil amendments that either help or hinder, um,
mycelium and the micro symbiosis? Um, you know,
the main answer may just be,
well keep your soil generally balanced and healthy and,
and that that's reasonable. But,
but there also could be like some amendment that you're like, oh,
this is a key building block, um, you know,
for mycelium networks and,
and you should make sure that you add this or something.
Yeah, that's a great question. I know that, um,
we've read some literature about biochar mm-hmm. being helpful,
um, and, you know, increasing colonization.
Um,
I know that we really avoid having anything really high and
phosphorous. So high phosphorus contents can really,
um, reduce the level of colonization.
So I'd just say to consider, definitely consider the phosphorus content.
It's interesting cuz Mike Grisel fungi are so wonderful at acquiring
phosphorus that's like their flagship nutrient. But if you plant it in,
if you plant this plant in this really phosphorous rich environment,
the micro isel fungi doesn't establish maybe because it thinks why do I need to
be here?
Yeah. My job would be redundant.
Right? So there's a lot of research on, um, on,
on phosphorus levels and, um,
even fertilizing with a lower p so when,
when that's becoming established. Right.
Right. On. Um, and I, and I've got a,
a fertilizer question to follow up that with, um, you know,
while we focus mostly on natural farming techniques on shaping fire, many folks,
uh, choose the ease of using, you know,
salt based fertilizers and a plus B kind of stuff for indoors mm-hmm.
, how do these sort of like sodium fertilizers impact, um,
mycelium and the micro iza symbiosis in any way?
Well, we, um, you know, I can't, I don't know really,
but I know that we had to use some of that material in our hydroponic study and
the lettuce, that study wasn't as successful, but, um,
we also worked with Basal and it seemed to still, you know, it's still,
it was still able to work with it. We just made sure that the PE was low.
Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, cuz that's really important.
So, so to, um, kind of wrap this up a little bit, um,
you know, th this, the more I prepared for this show,
the more complex I realized that my mycelium networks and micro iza
symbiosis is right. I'm like, I was like, you know, you know,
a couple days into,
into building my question path for this episode and I'm like, holy crap,
this is like two episodes. Like, and, and a college course, right?
Like,
there's so much here and you of course is somebody who's dedicated themselves to
studying fungus knows this. So, so, um, as kind of a wrap up, there are,
there are certainly things that,
that I didn't ask you because I didn't know to ask you
because I don't have the, the, the depth that you have got and,
and if our goal with this show was to, you know,
have cannabis cultivators be more aware of, uh,
mycelium networks to consider them more, um, and,
and how to support them when they are growing either in
beds or in containers. And then, and then,
and then understand the micro iza symbiosis and, and the importance of it.
So, so we continually, um, you know,
respect the role that, that, uh, the living soul is playing, soil is playing.
Um, what would you, uh,
say is that something that I may have missed that would be helpful
to cultivators in, in making sure they've got, uh,
healthy and functioning my cial networks?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think you asked some amazing questions.
I think that you covered, um, things really well. Esp I mean,
everything from the mycelium to describing micro isel, fungi, their role,
everything like that. I think one thing that we didn't, um,
necessarily touch on was just, um,
micro isel products. And not to put any,
not gonna put any type of plugs in there for any particular product,
but what I would tell people to be aware of is label claims.
Mm-hmm. , right? So if you're,
if you wanna incorporate Isel fungi, um,
by going out and buying a product, look at the claim.
Don't just look at this soil contains micro I,
because one thing I've really noticed, um,
through my time with,
with the company I'm working with now is there's a lot of products out there
that will claim we have micro I, right? Mm-hmm. . Um,
but when you look at their claim, it's extremely low. And so,
you know, if you're having a fraction of, you know,
a fraction of a propag for, you know, a cubic inch of soil,
like that's really not gonna do you any good, right? So just be aware,
um, that there are a lot of products out there that might have a really,
really low claim.
And so you may think you're introducing micro isel fungi through
soils or different inoculums, but just try to educate yourself on,
on the levels. And if you see something coming in at a fraction of a propag,
it's probably not delivering what you're hoping it will.
Right On. That is really insightful. I'm glad that you added that. And,
you know, this is, um,
this is also something that we talk about when we're talking about microbe
communities, right? Because there's, there's all these, like, you know,
new to the market, you know,
microbe community infusion products, right? Mm-hmm. and,
and, and, and people just buy them and because they,
they like the marketing of it. But then, you know, you, you know,
if somebody with, with a, with a bio biology background looks at the label,
they're all like, you know, what is this? You know, it is something,
you know mm-hmm. and, and, and I think it's, it's all,
it's good for all of us to be a savvy and a bit skeptical, uh,
consumers when it comes to, um, you know, science that we may not,
may not be entirely familiar with.
Yeah. I mean, really with all of our products, right? But Right. But, and,
you know, even questioning, even seeing claims that you think are,
okay, cool, this seems like a decent enough, um, level.
Um,
I'm more of a fan of over inoculating as long as the carrier isn't gonna cause
any type of phytotoxicity mm-hmm. , um, you know,
sometimes companies will say, you know,
apply this much and this is what's best, you know, on the business aspect. But,
um, I'm,
I'm a bit more of a fan of giving it a little extra ,
let's just put it that way, .
Right on. Right on. So another ex another good point to know your carrier,
know what your filler products are in whatever products you're using, right?
Yeah. So, so Stephanie, thank you so much for, uh,
spending your time with us today and, and,
and sharing your insight into Mycelium networks and the micro rase
symbiosis. Um, uh, I know that I learned a lot,
especially about the Mike Rises symbiosis, like when, when,
when, you know, I really got to wrapping my head around that,
that it is a process more than a thing. Um, I mean,
clearly it broke my brain there and set one, but, but, um, you know,
throughout the rest of the show, I, I,
I've realized that the impacts that that has as far as how I've been taking care
of my own, um, uh, growing containers. So, so, so thank you for,
um, you know, sharing your insight and, and your time and your good cheer, uh,
with everybody here on Shaping Fire.
Oh, you're so welcome. It's really been a pleasure.
Awesome. So, uh, if you would like to, uh,
get in contact with Stephanie Garcia, um,
you can do so through LinkedIn. Um, unlike some of our other guests,
she's not super, uh, active on, on, you know, the Twitter, Instagram, uh,
that we normally give you. And that's because she's in the lab, uh, where,
where, where she's doing the great work. So, uh, but,
but if there's some reason that you wanna reach out to her, um, uh,
you can reach her on LinkedIn and, uh, that's, uh, Stephanie with, uh,
pH n not an F.
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