1
00:00:07,150 --> 00:00:10,760
Patients always want exact answers.
I know when I go to the doctor,

2
00:00:10,870 --> 00:00:15,040
I too want specific answers to specific
questions and I rarely get them.

3
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,720
Similarly, when cannabis patients
ask me detailed questions,

4
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360
often the answers are also elusive.

5
00:00:21,820 --> 00:00:25,440
The best medicine is individualized
medicine, and by definition,

6
00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:29,120
individualized medicine is going to
be somewhat unique to every person.

7
00:00:29,670 --> 00:00:31,840
That said, when it comes to cannabis,

8
00:00:31,850 --> 00:00:36,720
if you identify the proper blend of
cannabinoids and start slow and low in the

9
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,320
dosage, a path to resolving the
issue usually presents itself.

10
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,440
Cannabis is safe for nearly everyone and
humans have had thousands of years to

11
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,240
get into relationship with the plant
and learn it to be reliable and with few

12
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,000
side effects. However,

13
00:00:51,430 --> 00:00:54,840
when you add complex chemical
pharmaceuticals to the mix,

14
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,640
sometimes things don't go as planned.

15
00:00:56,860 --> 00:01:00,440
And most pharmaceuticals have only been
around for a mere fraction of the time

16
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,680
that cannabis has been
used by humans. And also,

17
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,880
while a layperson can easily understand
the dosing dynamics for cannabis,

18
00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:12,320
that is entirely untrue for most
pharmaceuticals whose contents are

19
00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:15,800
intentionally obscured and instructions
for use are shrouded in legally

20
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,000
defendable double talk,

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00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:20,080
it is enough to frustrate
anyone just trying to get well.

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00:01:21,460 --> 00:01:23,930
If you wanna learn about
cannabis health, business,

23
00:01:23,930 --> 00:01:25,890
and technique efficiently
and with good cheer,

24
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,050
I encourage you to
subscribe to our newsletter.

25
00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:30,890
We'll send you new podcast
episodes as they come out,

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00:01:30,890 --> 00:01:32,370
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27
00:01:32,370 --> 00:01:35,410
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28
00:01:35,410 --> 00:01:36,530
week. And videos too.

29
00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:40,210
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know when a new episode is published.

30
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,170
Sign up for the updates to make sure
you don't miss an episode. Also,

31
00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:47,770
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34
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35
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37
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39
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And be sure to check out the
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40
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,700
you are listening to Shaping Fire.
And I am your host, Chango Los.

41
00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:21,780
My guest today is Jhan Markou. Dr.

42
00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:25,700
Markou is a molecular pharmacologist
with over 15 years of experience in

43
00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:30,140
cannabinoid research and a PhD focusing
on the pharmacology of cannabinoids.

44
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,940
Not only has Johanna committed
scientist, but he goes way back too.

45
00:02:33,940 --> 00:02:37,180
As a cannabis activist
and policy influencer, Dr.

46
00:02:37,180 --> 00:02:40,540
Markou is a founding partner at the
consulting firm of Markku and Aurora,

47
00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:44,220
which provides life science consulting
to the cannabis and psychedelic fields.

48
00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:48,260
He's also chief scientific officer
at Physicians Research Center.

49
00:02:48,260 --> 00:02:53,220
Plus Jahan also co-developed a
biotech application to predict

50
00:02:53,220 --> 00:02:57,340
drug drug interactions between cannabis
and commonly prescribed pharmaceutical

51
00:02:57,340 --> 00:02:57,880
drugs.

52
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,600
And co-authored one of of the first
product safety studies on C B D Dr.

53
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,360
Marco co-authored American Herbal
Pharmacopia Cannabis Quality Control

54
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:08,960
and Therapeutic Monographs,

55
00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:12,520
and serves on multiple expert government
advisory and trade association

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00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:13,353
committees.

57
00:03:13,650 --> 00:03:18,040
He is the founding editor-in-chief of
the American Journal of Endo Cannabinoid

58
00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,920
Medicine and is adjunct faculty at
the University of the Sciences in

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00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,840
Philadelphia, teaching the
pharmacology of cannabis.

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00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:29,480
He has many research and
media publications and has
appeared in Rolling Stone

61
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,560
Science, nature Jamma, the Washington
Post, CNN n and many others.

62
00:03:34,210 --> 00:03:39,120
He is host and producer of the How
to Launch An Industry podcast and is

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00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,800
often called upon as a cannabis and
synthetic drug expert witness. Dr.

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00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,520
Markou has received numerous awards,

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00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,320
including the Mahmud El Soli Award
for Excellence in Cannabis Chemistry,

66
00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:53,120
and the Billy Martin Research
Achievement Award from the International

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00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,640
Cannabinoid Research Society. On
today's episode of Shaping Fire,

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00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,480
we will talk about how to think through
the dynamic challenges presented by

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00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,400
cannabis and pharmaceutical interaction
and give you a roadmap for doing this

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00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,400
research for yourself or the
cannabis patients you care for.

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00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:09,000
During the second set,

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00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,720
we'll review red flag pharmaceuticals
and drug families that present especially

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00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,520
high risk and how the availability of
new cannabinoids and concentrates has

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00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,560
exacerbated these issues.
And in the third set,

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00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,520
we look at the differences between
endocannabinoid and phyto cannabinoid drug

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00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,680
interaction, discuss the state of
drug drug interaction research,

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00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:34,560
and we encourage everyone
who uses cannabis to visit
buds info.com and complete

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00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,320
a short questionnaire to help
in the research into this topic.

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00:04:37,890 --> 00:04:40,200
Welcome back to Shaping Fire Jahan.

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00:04:41,690 --> 00:04:43,650
Thank you Shago. It's great to be here.

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00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:46,850
You know, like what, even though you
and I have interacted over the years,

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00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,770
this is episode 104,

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00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:54,650
and your last visit to appear on
shaping fire was all the way back on

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00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:58,970
episode 29. And that seems like
such a long time ago. In fact,

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00:04:58,970 --> 00:05:02,410
it was the week of Christmas in 2017.

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00:05:03,450 --> 00:05:04,610
<Laugh>. Wow.

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00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,530
Yeah, it was like, like back, back
in the before times, you know.

88
00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:13,770
<Laugh> <laugh> so much as it seems
like that seems like a lifetime ago for

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00:05:13,770 --> 00:05:18,490
so many things and projects.
Um, that's amazing. Yeah, for.

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00:05:18,490 --> 00:05:19,410
Sure. So, um,

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00:05:19,410 --> 00:05:22,890
and that was in the early days of shaping
fire when we focused a bit more on

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00:05:23,090 --> 00:05:24,490
business. So, um,

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00:05:24,860 --> 00:05:29,330
episode 29 is a great one about
cannabis product manufacturing, uh,

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00:05:29,610 --> 00:05:33,450
standards. And we don't cover the
license market as much anymore, but, um,

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00:05:33,450 --> 00:05:36,690
folks, if you're, if you are in
licensed cannabis or in, in, you know,

96
00:05:36,690 --> 00:05:38,410
in medical cannabis and in production,

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00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,450
that's a really excellent show that has
remained evergreen over the years. So,

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00:05:43,450 --> 00:05:47,610
so I encourage you to go back and, and
check out episode 29. If you haven't.

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00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,090
I would say, uh, you know, the big
update to that though is I've gone from,

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00:05:52,750 --> 00:05:53,583
you know,

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00:05:53,890 --> 00:05:58,840
voluntary certification assessments
for regulatory compliance on all

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00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,360
types of cannabis operations
around the world. And since then,

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00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,960
I actually got to visit hemp
facilities in China, uh, Europe.

104
00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:10,840
And I've started to work with, um,
state governments on, you know,

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00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,360
determining compliance assessment criteria
and updating regulations, you know,

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00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,960
driven by science from that experience.
So, you know, I feel like you're, uh,

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00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,880
you're like the paleontologist chango.
You got to walk with a, you know,

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00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,720
a dinosaur like me in the early days.

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00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,960
<Laugh>. That's, that's, I guess that's
one way to put it. Except you're,

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00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:32,480
you're still so young
though, so I hope so.

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00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,360
Cause I think you're younger
than me, so, um, so, so, but,

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00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,920
but today we're here to talk,

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00:06:36,970 --> 00:06:41,920
to talk and focus on the interplay
between cannabis and the pharmaceuticals

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that cannabis patients may be taking.

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And we both wanna be clear right off the
bat that we are not giving you medical

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00:06:47,590 --> 00:06:52,120
advice today. Uh, we have no way of
knowing your actual whole situation.

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00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,960
And our goal today is to flesh out
some of the intricacies of this topic

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00:06:57,260 --> 00:07:01,160
and, and help you gain some perspective
so that you can figure out effective

119
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,760
individualized medicine for yourself
or the people that you care for. So,

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00:07:05,850 --> 00:07:08,440
so, alright, let's get
right into it. So, Jahan,

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00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,880
the idea that any one of
so many phyto cannabinoids

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00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,800
interacting with any one of
thousands of prescription drugs,

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00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:21,080
that they could have an unintended side
effect seems like a pretty realistic

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thing nowadays. But for years in
the medical cannabis community,

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no one wanted to admit that it
was possible, including me. And,

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00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,240
and maybe it was simply because there
were so little research into it, or,

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00:07:32,340 --> 00:07:34,200
and we just hadn't seen it. Um,

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00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,120
but also it could also just be that we're
all really protective of our favorite

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00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:39,040
plant cannabis.

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00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:43,400
But now we know that these
interactions actually do exist as,

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00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,400
as more and more people use cannabis
and we're able to collect more data,

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00:07:47,660 --> 00:07:51,120
are we actually seeing more
reports of interactions nowadays?

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00:07:51,990 --> 00:07:54,040
Yeah. Um,

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00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,480
the potential for drug drug interactions,

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00:07:58,070 --> 00:08:01,120
regardless of the substance, you know,

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00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,960
cannabis has compounds that interact
with receptors and are metabolized by our

137
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,840
body, um, ELs that wouldn't
have all these, you know,

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00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,840
wonderful therapeutic benefits
that we hear about. Um, but,

139
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,400
but drug drug interactions or DDIs are,

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00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:19,080
are increasing generally across the board,

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00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,760
not just for cannabinoids or cannabis,

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00:08:21,860 --> 00:08:26,520
but it is the primary cause of
adverse drug reactions. And it's,

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00:08:26,950 --> 00:08:31,800
it's something that creates over
half a billion dollars of estimated

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00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,960
burden on our healthcare system annually.

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00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,640
And there's a lot of efforts
to avoid these drug drug

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00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,640
interactions. Um, you know,

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00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,840
drug regulatory agencies like the FDA
usually mandate this sort of thing.

148
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,040
And we know a lot about
them for some stuff. Uh,

149
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,960
for like Marinol, which
was approved, you know,

150
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,200
a decade or so before we even knew they
were cannabinoid receptors as well as as

151
00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,160
for Epidiolex or C B D. So
these have been explored. Um,

152
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,200
but what we're dealing
with now is, you know,

153
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,360
we live in a really lucky time and in a
really lucky place if you're listening

154
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:07,080
to this in the United States,

155
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,360
we have the fda and I know that people
like to criticize the fda. Well that's,

156
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,800
that's great. That's, that's, that's one
of the great things about being alive.

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00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,520
You get to criticize things, but it's
also the best drug regulatory agency.

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00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:17,920
In fact,

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00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,760
it's so good that most
of us simply throw away

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00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,400
the insert on any medication
we get. It's like,

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00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,160
as a long fold out map of potential
issues. And we're like, oh,

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00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,160
just throw that away.
This is FDA approved. Um,

163
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,320
so we do live in a time where
we buy a loaf for bread,

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00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,240
we buy a bottle of aspirin, we
get our prescription medications,

165
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,520
and we just assume that if
it's on a shelf, it's safe and,

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00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,720
and the risks, um, you know,

167
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,520
are known or they wouldn't or wouldn't
be on a shelf. Um, however, you know,

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00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,040
there's interesting things are happening
with cannabis compounds, you know,

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00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,160
due to a strong patient
and consumer demand.

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00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,880
Cannabis based products don't
follow the traditional standard drug

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00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,760
development pipeline that we hold
pharmaceutical drugs like, you know,

172
00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:10,080
antidepressants or other drugs
too. They just, you know,

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00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:13,040
you package and label
them at the state level.

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00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:17,600
And so there is a lack of understanding or

175
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,240
appreciation of the potential
drug drug interactions. Um,

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00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:26,480
and again, a lot of these
occur from, you know,

177
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,160
oral administration of
multiple substances,

178
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,160
sort of the more drugs that you
use, the more pharmaceutical drugs,

179
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,360
the more medicines you take,

180
00:10:35,740 --> 00:10:39,680
the higher your chances
of interactions. Um,

181
00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:44,480
and you know, this is not, you know,
we have to kind of like, you know,

182
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,600
I've been a passionate
advocate of product safety,

183
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,120
particularly for medical cannabis
patients for for almost two decades.

184
00:10:52,620 --> 00:10:53,360
And you know,

185
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,360
I remember a time when the plant products
weren't even tested before giving to

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00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,840
people who had compromised immune
systems. Um, I remember arguing with,

187
00:11:03,490 --> 00:11:04,323
uh,

188
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,400
operators to put voluntarily
put expiration dates and
people saying thing like,

189
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,720
well, cookies don't go bad.
Um, and, and, but again, we,

190
00:11:12,810 --> 00:11:17,200
we see drug drug interactions all the
time. We talk about them all the time,

191
00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:20,080
but we don't know that
we're talking about them.

192
00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:25,120
Some of them are for our benefit
and some of 'em can increase risk.

193
00:11:25,770 --> 00:11:30,600
Um, let me give you an example of
a conversation I had 15 years ago,

194
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,320
maybe 20 years ago. Uh, I was just a,
just a little researcher at the time,

195
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:39,640
a undergraduate, and I
approached a cannabis operation,

196
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,800
started talking them up about cbd,
you should carry CBD products.

197
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,520
This is like gonna be a great thing.

198
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,920
And people had started
small circles to talk about,

199
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,680
and they asked me what it
did and I said, oh, well it,

200
00:11:50,050 --> 00:11:53,960
it actually blocks the intoxicating
effects of thc mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

201
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,760
And they're like, oh my god, that sounds
terrible. Nobody will ever want that.

202
00:11:58,060 --> 00:12:01,800
But CBD and THC is a form
of a drug drug interaction.

203
00:12:01,870 --> 00:12:06,040
It's not quite what we're
talking about, but it can be, um,

204
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:11,000
one that may not be ideal, um,
for some people. Uh, you know,

205
00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:15,240
so I think that when we talk about drug
drug interactions, we talk about them,

206
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,040
we talk about, oh, this variety of
cannabis has this mixture of compounds.

207
00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:21,720
It's good for this, it
helps with this, it,

208
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:25,280
it's has these indications. Um,

209
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,800
there's an array that can be present. Um,

210
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,760
so I think we always have to keep in
mind that we are familiar with this.

211
00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:36,560
We talk about it, you know, it's like
saying, I like to talk about, you know,

212
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,400
baseball statistics, but
I don't like math. Well,

213
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,120
clearly you do like math cuz you're
analyzing averages and percentages. So we,

214
00:12:44,210 --> 00:12:46,840
we do have the fundamentals of
this, I think, in the industry.

215
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,320
So we're not really talking about,
I think anything new today that you,

216
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,320
that you've probably haven't,
you know, discussed before.

217
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,480
How do drugs interact
together to produce an effect?

218
00:12:58,660 --> 00:13:01,480
And let's talk about that
how a little bit, um,

219
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,800
because the different mechanisms, um,

220
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,280
I think it's important for people
to wrap their heads around the, the,

221
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,520
the first interaction that I was aware
of was years ago learning that, uh,

222
00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:16,080
C B D can increase the potency
of some seizure medications,

223
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,960
meaning that the seizure patients
taking C B D could sometimes take less

224
00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:24,720
of that seizure medication and get
the same um, effect in some cases.

225
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,440
Let's dissect that idea because the
C B D could be causing the seizure

226
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,120
medication to be more
potent for many reasons.

227
00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:37,360
One being perhaps that the C B D and
the seizure medication are doing the

228
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,280
same thing and working side by side
instead of actually on each other.

229
00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:47,440
Or secondly, CBD could be acting in a
way that the seizure medication has get,

230
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,240
gets more resources or something.

231
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,840
There's a lot of different mechanisms
for why that could be happening.

232
00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:55,960
And, um, you know, I,

233
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,920
I know that you have studied
in detail these different

234
00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:02,520
mechanisms of drug drug interaction.

235
00:14:02,660 --> 00:14:06,560
I'd really appreciate if you would tease
them apart and explain a few of them

236
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:08,000
and like, take your time. Give us,

237
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,400
give us like three or four so that we
can really grok the different mechanisms.

238
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,120
<Laugh>, you know, a absolutely.
And when we talk about mechanisms,

239
00:14:17,450 --> 00:14:19,560
um, you know, we can,

240
00:14:19,710 --> 00:14:22,680
I like to think about 'em in three ways.

241
00:14:23,540 --> 00:14:27,440
One is cannabinoids as victim, right?

242
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,480
Where the mechanism is that the
levels of the cannabinoid is changed.

243
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:36,120
You take a drug and it makes the,
you take, you take it with thc,

244
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,040
let's call it drug X, right?

245
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,680
And you take it with a THC product and
suddenly you're feeling way more sedated

246
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,280
or have way higher munchies
side effect or whatever,

247
00:14:46,350 --> 00:14:49,400
pick your side effect for your
conceptual example. And it's just,

248
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,640
it's increased because the cannabinoid
levels are changed by another drug.

249
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,560
So cannabinoid is a victim where
its levels in your body are changed.

250
00:14:58,310 --> 00:15:01,520
Well, cannabinoids can
also be perpetrators.

251
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,080
They can cause changes in the
levels, uh, of another drug.

252
00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:07,760
Um, and so in this case, you know,

253
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,080
they might be increasing or decreasing
the amount of, like you said,

254
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,960
like an anti-epileptic
medication or a pain medication.

255
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,360
And if this information is well
understood, you're absolutely right,

256
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,280
it can be leveraged to improve, uh,

257
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,840
healthcare outcomes. You
know, if you're like, oh,

258
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,440
there's a drug drug interaction
between cannabinoids and opioids,

259
00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:31,880
you can take less opioids
and get the same effect. Wow.

260
00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:36,360
We thank goodness we knew about those
interactions so that we could take steps

261
00:15:36,370 --> 00:15:41,080
to make that a benefit instead
of an increased risk. Now,

262
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,040
there also are, so we've talked
about cannabinoids as victims,

263
00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:46,000
cannabinoids as perpetrators,

264
00:15:46,260 --> 00:15:50,760
and there are also pharmacodynamic
effects. I think that's the first, uh,

265
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,720
five syllable word we've used so far.
But there are pharmacodynamic effects.

266
00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,480
And what this means is that both drugs
have overlapping effects and our concepts

267
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:05,400
of victim and perpetrator don't
apply here. But, you know,

268
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:07,360
one thing is like if we take, uh,

269
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,600
research on THC and baclofen
individually at doses given to

270
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,200
people and studies is a
little bit of sedation,

271
00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:18,840
not too much to write home
about, but you put them together,

272
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:21,640
there's like sedation
coming from that drug,

273
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,200
sedation coming from the other
drug and put it together.

274
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,280
Sedation plus sedation
equals a lot of sedation. Um,

275
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,880
and that could be an unwanted
side effect and adverse effect.

276
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:37,800
Um, and so as we continue with this
victim and perpetrator analogy, you know,

277
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,440
you mentioned cannabidiol. C B D I,

278
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,920
I think this is a great
example because, you know,

279
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,920
here we have a drug that
is given to pediatric

280
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,480
patients in large amounts who are
also taking other medications.

281
00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:56,640
And in the, you know,

282
00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,200
I think even several years ago starting,

283
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,960
I think Divinsky published
the paper in 2018,

284
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,400
and those of you listening can email
me, uh, message me on social media.

285
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,800
If anything I mentioned you're like, I
want that study, send me that link. Uh,

286
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,640
feel free to reach out. But, you know,
they should have high doses of cbd,

287
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,880
significantly increased
levels of nar clobazam, um,

288
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,560
which is an active metabolite of Clobazam.

289
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,040
So basically what you're saying
is you have a baseline amount,

290
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,960
let's call the baseline zero.
It's just or normal, right? Um,

291
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,840
and so you, when you take
it with um, C B D, um,

292
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,240
you can start to see that, uh,

293
00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:40,600
the amounts of Clobazam and the
ratio of Clobazam to nor Clobazam,

294
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,720
the metabolite and the, the, the,

295
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,480
the parent compound just
go a little haywire.

296
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,800
You start to see those levels change
if almost completely different

297
00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:55,760
than without cbd We're
talking, um, you know, the,

298
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,840
the, we're seeing, you know,

299
00:17:58,190 --> 00:18:02,840
a hundred and fifty, two hundred,
three hundred 50% above baseline.

300
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,600
Those, uh, you know,

301
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,160
those bars on the graph look like
skyscrapers of New York City,

302
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,400
which is a signal that we
need to pay more attention to.

303
00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:17,880
And that would be an example
of a cannabinoid as a
perpetrator of a drug drugg

304
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,520
interaction. Um, and so
how is this happening?

305
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,200
You might be saying, well,

306
00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:29,520
we have a lot of things in our
bodies that like to handle drugs. Um,

307
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,160
you know, we're, we're hardwired
to, uh, consume things,

308
00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:36,400
have them hit little proteins,

309
00:18:37,070 --> 00:18:41,880
also known as receptors throughout our
body and send along little messages.

310
00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:43,950
Well, however,

311
00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:48,110
we have to have a system that gets rid
of the drugs after they've sort of sent

312
00:18:48,110 --> 00:18:51,950
their message to the brain, to
the body and had their effect.

313
00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:57,150
And we have these drug metabolizing
enzymes. What do they do?

314
00:18:57,150 --> 00:19:00,190
Well, they are the garbage
trucks of drugs. They just like,

315
00:19:00,190 --> 00:19:04,190
they like chewing up drugs and
helping us pee them out. Um,

316
00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:07,950
so the enzymes of responsible
for this, so when I say enzymes,

317
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,910
I say proteins, I say receptors.

318
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:15,510
These are all things that our
body makes from our dna, right?

319
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,590
We have, we have dna, it codes,
amino acids that form these proteins.

320
00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:22,550
And proteins can do a
lot of different things.

321
00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:26,950
And these sip p uh, c y p four 50,

322
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,150
we call them sipps, uh, for short,
for short, for cytochrome P four 50.

323
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,630
Um, there are many different
forms and um, you know, there are,

324
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,070
um, you know, we inherit
different ones from our family.

325
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:48,230
And I think this next point is
important because with the advent

326
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:49,070
of gene testing,

327
00:19:49,170 --> 00:19:53,870
you can find out some
information about how you might,

328
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,030
uh, metabolize drugs. So, um,

329
00:19:58,030 --> 00:20:02,470
there are people who are slow
metabolizers, like really poor.

330
00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:04,470
That means the drug stick around longer.

331
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:07,190
There are people that are
intermediate metabolizers.

332
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:09,550
There's people who are extensive,

333
00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:13,350
and then there are people
who are ultra rapid.

334
00:20:14,210 --> 00:20:17,510
And that means that if you're
an ultra rapid metabolizer,

335
00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:21,630
you can take a drug and
you may not even feel,

336
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,750
or you may feel just the faintest of
effects for it before it's metabolized and

337
00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:28,230
excreted from your body.

338
00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:33,830
There are some really
wild examples of this.

339
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,790
Um, uh, you know, for example, um,

340
00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:42,390
there is an association
with, um, cuz people who,

341
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:46,350
who suffer from, uh, genetically
from sickle cell disease, uh,

342
00:20:46,420 --> 00:20:51,040
they have some genes, uh, in majority
of the population that are conserved.

343
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:55,160
And many of them are ultra
rapid metabolizers of opioids.

344
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:59,960
And frequently people with sickle cell
disease get prescribed the maximal

345
00:21:00,130 --> 00:21:02,160
allowed amount of opioids,

346
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,240
which has been steadily
decreasing over time,

347
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,560
but they tend to be
ultra rapid metabolizers.

348
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,760
So whereas most average people
would probably fall in the

349
00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:18,680
intermediate, in the mid-range
of drug metabolizing. Um, and,

350
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,480
and a a little opioid goes a long way.

351
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,960
There are populations that would rapidly
just and wouldn't feel an effect.

352
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,800
So it would look really weird on
someone's chart at a doctor like, wow,

353
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,200
you're taking a lot of opioids,

354
00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:33,400
but unless you knew the genetic component
and the other drugs they were taking,

355
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,480
it may not make a lot
of sense. So one is, uh,

356
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,800
to know thy self, right?

357
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,600
And so using kind of all
available tools to understand,

358
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,800
first of all from a baseline, how do I,
what, how do I even metabolize drugs?

359
00:21:48,970 --> 00:21:53,680
Am I the type of person who can drink
coffee all day long and go to sleep

360
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,280
because I'm a rapid metabolizer or will
just smelling a cup of coffee keep me up

361
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,040
for three days? Mm-hmm.

362
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,120
<affirmative> like these might be
things you can playfully tease out.

363
00:22:02,340 --> 00:22:06,680
And so the reason I wanna mention
that, cuz that is a factor, um,

364
00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:11,720
with this, um, stuff, cuz there
are people who have mutations, uh,

365
00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:15,960
polymorphisms, uh, a
single little change, um,

366
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,800
can cause people to be, you
know, much more, uh, say,

367
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:24,040
you know, it can change the amount
of THC that's even in their body.

368
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,520
So if you are a slow metabolizer of thc,

369
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:31,320
you'll have more THC floating around. Um,

370
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:34,320
and much like someone floating
around with nothing to do,

371
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,800
they might get into trouble.
And so that it increases the,

372
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:40,600
the chances of a drug drug
interaction. So you could,

373
00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:45,080
you could have be a slow metabolizer
and realize that, you know,

374
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,960
I have to be careful about the timing
and method of ingestion because, um,

375
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,760
this is gonna stick around for
longer than the average person.

376
00:22:54,450 --> 00:22:58,760
So you could get, you know, depending
on how well you metabolize things,

377
00:22:58,780 --> 00:23:03,520
you could have threefold higher levels
floating around. Um, which I have to say,

378
00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:07,160
uh, if you do a rapid or
ultra rapid metabolizer,

379
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:11,960
you'll probably have a better
chance of passing, uh, a blood test.

380
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,800
If you were ever pulled over
for a cannabis related dui,

381
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,520
you just better hope and pray you're
a rapid metabolizer if it's based on

382
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,560
thresholds for the amount
in your system. Uh,

383
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,920
just to give you an example of some
real world <laugh> implications for this

384
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,880
information, powerful information is
available for you to navigate. This,

385
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,840
I think is, is the point I'm making.
And so we talked about cbd, uh,

386
00:23:37,030 --> 00:23:37,720
clobazam,

387
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,680
and how that's an interaction
where CBD is inhibiting a sip that

388
00:23:42,790 --> 00:23:47,680
prevents the metabolism of this
class of benzodiazepine, not,

389
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:52,480
not a fun time. Um, and so, uh,

390
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:57,080
you know, we have these sipps, these
enzymes, and there's a whole bunch of 'em,

391
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,480
and they do different things. Um, I
mean, they metabolize different drugs.

392
00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:06,040
And when we think about, you
know, cannabinoids as victims,

393
00:24:06,730 --> 00:24:07,920
um, there's uh,

394
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,800
different sipps and they have fun
little names like sip three A four or

395
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:16,680
C two C nine. And, and you're probably
wondering, those are so beautiful,

396
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,360
I'm so glad scientists named them that
way cuz it's totally easy to understand

397
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,920
what they do. It's not like, you know,
<laugh>. Um, so C P three A four,

398
00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:29,800
um, can be inhibited.
They can be activated, uh,

399
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,080
by different drugs. And so ch
clarithromycin ketoconazole,

400
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,680
there's other protease
inhibitors that people take.

401
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:41,680
And when you take those drugs, you're,
you're inhibiting some sipps. They,

402
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,000
they like to block those
proteins for some reason.

403
00:24:44,420 --> 00:24:46,120
And if you take a cannabinoid,

404
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:50,720
you could have two to four times
the amount of THC or CBD in your

405
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,000
bloodstream, in your plasma,
uh, relative to just, you know,

406
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,800
taking the cannabinoid
alone. And that's, again,

407
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,200
these could be drugs that have
nothing to do with each other,

408
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,680
like clarithromycin or
again, keto cazal. Um,

409
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,480
and that's a paper I think
published in 2013, you know,

410
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,520
10 years ago they
identified this reaction.

411
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,960
And so what we see is that you
have these drug metabolizing

412
00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:20,000
enzymes that can be either inhi,

413
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,440
can be largely inhibited by a drug
that then affects another drug.

414
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,160
So t h c needs CYP three A four to be

415
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:31,640
metabolized and processed by the body.

416
00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:36,440
You inhibit that it
stays around longer, um,

417
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,000
which could have unintended
consequences. But again,

418
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,080
it all comes down to how we use
the information, um, as well.

419
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:49,040
And so I think that there's
again, um, you know,

420
00:25:49,070 --> 00:25:54,000
a lot of this information is
extrapolated from drug metabolism

421
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,640
studies. Like, there's not,

422
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,720
there's not a lot of clinical
work where people are like,

423
00:25:57,730 --> 00:26:01,560
we wanna study drug drug
interactions. There's,

424
00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:05,000
it's all sort of teased out from studies.

425
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,600
And so a lot of this stuff has
been put together from almost like

426
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,560
detective, like work. Um,
and, and again, you know,

427
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,760
there are some clinically
significant ones and, you know, cbd,

428
00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:24,320
um, you know, with Clobazam, warfarin, uh,

429
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,320
taro, Myas and methadone have all been,

430
00:26:29,330 --> 00:26:33,320
um, implicated in having a potential
significant drug drug interaction.

431
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,920
But I'll say that there, the,

432
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,760
the nuance there is that it also
depends a little bit on your genetic

433
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:44,320
makeup and, and a couple of other
factors. But again, on paper,

434
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,720
these things have a clinically
significant, uh, interaction potentially.

435
00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:55,000
Um, and THC does share some of
those similar concerns with, uh,

436
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:59,960
you know, tb, CBD and TC both
represent, um, an issue with warfare.

437
00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:02,000
And potentially as well.

438
00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:03,160
I, I, um,

439
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,680
think that we're seeing now exactly
how complex this has become,

440
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,600
because I think for most of us,

441
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,520
we're just kind of thinking in this
singular way that the cannabinoids

442
00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:17,240
are interacting with pharmaceuticals.

443
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,200
And generally we think of it's having
a, a, a bad effect. However, you know,

444
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,280
we're getting a better idea now that
we can have cannabis acting on the

445
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,113
pharmaceutical,

446
00:27:27,180 --> 00:27:31,880
and then we can have the pharmaceutical
perhaps acting on the cannabis and they

447
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,040
could also be going in the, uh, different
directions. They can be inhibit,

448
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,800
one could be inhibiting the other, or
they could also have additive effects.

449
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:44,880
So now that's going in two
directions and then, and then,

450
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,360
and then there's another two directions
because the additive or inhibited

451
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:53,080
effects could actually end
up being desirous or they
could be something that we

452
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,800
don't want. And so suddenly now we
see this like multi-dimensional,

453
00:27:58,490 --> 00:28:00,120
um, uh, you know,

454
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,520
interplay between these
drug drug interactions and

455
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:08,200
like our definitions kind of
start to float away because,

456
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,720
because some of the interactions for
one patient are gonna be negative and,

457
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,120
but for a different patient,
they're gonna be desirous.

458
00:28:15,180 --> 00:28:19,400
And I think that you've done a really
good job at illustrating how, how we,

459
00:28:19,410 --> 00:28:21,360
we need to look at, you know,

460
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,720
individual patients and not make big,

461
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,400
grandiose rules that we're
gonna try to apply to everybody,

462
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,840
all drugs or all types
of patients. And, uh,

463
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,160
and I like this encouragement
for us to, you know,

464
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,720
dig into our genetics as well. You know,

465
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,040
especially if we're trying to tease
out some kind of drug drug interaction

466
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,720
problem we think we have. Um,
uh, and, and we want to get,

467
00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:48,200
uh, specific, um, with that,

468
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:52,680
I also like this idea of this
perpetrator and victim idea where, where,

469
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:53,440
you know, you've got,

470
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,840
you've got one compound that
is receiving the action,

471
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,640
and the other one that is,
is placing the action. Um,

472
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,520
let's talk a little bit about the
cannabinoids that are already in our body,

473
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,200
right? So like up till now we've been
talking about adding phyto cannabinoids,

474
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,440
so cannabinoids from
plants, um, to the mix.

475
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:17,840
But we know that we already have
endogenous cannabinoids in our body.

476
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,160
They already exist. And,

477
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,400
and usually when we are taking additional
phyto cannabinoids from the cannabis

478
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,680
plant to supplement the
endocannabinoids that our body creates,

479
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:31,520
um, you know, that's, that's
our goal. I'm curious, um,

480
00:29:32,610 --> 00:29:35,000
do we see any, uh,

481
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,680
or or significant interactions
between these endocannabinoids that

482
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,960
somebody who doesn't even use
cannabis will have in them and these

483
00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:44,880
pharmaceuticals?

484
00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:48,840
Sure. Um, you know,

485
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,760
we certainly can talk
about some of the things

486
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,480
that will make you realize you
have an endo cannabinoid system.

487
00:29:58,090 --> 00:30:01,960
So when we talk about the endo
cannabinoid system, it's, it's, again,

488
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,640
it's not just anandamide and two,

489
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,240
a g and p a and oea and all
the amino acid conjugated

490
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,760
endo cannabinoids. And, you know, the, we,

491
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,680
we could definitely delve
into the molecular psychiatry
of all those compounds,

492
00:30:17,740 --> 00:30:22,560
but we have to remember that a
lot of these endocannabinoids are

493
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,320
made on demand and they
are metabolized quickly.

494
00:30:27,420 --> 00:30:31,240
And reason that's important is
because, you know, we ha we,

495
00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:33,800
we want to focus on anandamide two G,

496
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,720
but we also have to focus
on them being made. We,

497
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,000
we can't just look at the bullet,

498
00:30:39,010 --> 00:30:42,880
we have to look at the gun
that's firing the bullet.

499
00:30:43,340 --> 00:30:48,320
And in this sense, um, the analogy isn't
perfect, but when we think about fa,

500
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,600
which is the, as in, you know, I like to
think far out research fa out research,

501
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,400
but, uh, fa is an enzyme that, you
know, chews up the endo cannabinoid.

502
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,240
So, uh, it's, it's the, you know,
the endo cannabinoid dump truck. It,

503
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,760
they're made quickly by
our body on demand. Again,

504
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,800
most signaling molecules are
made and stored and released. Uh,

505
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:11,920
endocannabinoids are made on demand.

506
00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:16,880
And so one interaction with the
endocannabinoid system that I think

507
00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:21,440
most people have experienced,
um, I will describe in a moment,

508
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,240
there's actually an over-the-counter
medication that anyone can buy that will

509
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,680
interact with your endo
cannabinoid system. And I'm not,

510
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,960
I'm gonna let you think about it
for a minute, listener and chango,

511
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:35,480
but I just wanna tell you about
this case report real quick.

512
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,640
And so imagine you, uh,

513
00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:42,720
had a history of painless
injuries in your life,

514
00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:46,480
you accidentally cut your
finger and everyone's like,
oh my gosh, did that hurt?

515
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,840
And you're like, ah, it's all right.
Stub your toe, don't feel it. Morphine,

516
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:55,960
opioids don't really relieve your
pain. You get some minor surgery, uh,

517
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,880
from experiencing life.
And, you know, you're like,

518
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,400
I don't need pain medication.
And, and you know, you,

519
00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:04,080
people around you and even use like, wow,

520
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,960
I have this high threshold for pain.

521
00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:11,360
So how could the endocannabinoid
system explain, well,

522
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,520
I'm not really getting an effect from
opioids, I actually don't even need them.

523
00:32:16,090 --> 00:32:18,320
Um, and that's, um,

524
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:23,600
this is from a story that was
laid out in a case report about

525
00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:26,400
a, a micro deletion in the dna.

526
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:29,080
And it was in a fa gene,

527
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,920
the gene that tells our bodies how
to make this enzyme that breaks

528
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,360
down the endo cannabinoids and
that without the dump truck,

529
00:32:37,460 --> 00:32:42,360
the trash just piles up. And so
you get a lot of anandamide and,

530
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:46,160
um, you know, decreases
in pain sensitivity.

531
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,800
And so this actually really
happened. The mutant walks among us,

532
00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:52,840
it was a 66 year old female,

533
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:56,120
had history of not requiring
any pain medication,

534
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,120
a history of painless
injuries. Wow. And, and why,

535
00:33:01,340 --> 00:33:06,280
why do I, why does this relate to an
over-the-counter endo-cannabinoid drug?

536
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,160
Well, it's a little tongue in cheek,

537
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,680
but peritol or as some of
us call it Tylenol, right,

538
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:13,430
uh,

539
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:18,000
requires fo to exert its
pain relieving properties.

540
00:33:18,290 --> 00:33:20,920
Um, and so a, uh,

541
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,360
basically Alex Mock Creos,

542
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,760
who's at Northeastern University was an
advisor on my thesis, and, um, was also,

543
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,440
you know, many of my colleagues like
Dr. Josh Hartsel and others, um,

544
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,160
worked with him as well.
And he discovered, um, a,

545
00:33:36,430 --> 00:33:41,360
a drug. And it turns out
that <laugh> it's, um,

546
00:33:41,470 --> 00:33:46,160
it's related to this, but
basically, um, without,

547
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:50,400
when, when you take Tylenol, it is
metabolized into a FO inhibitor,

548
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,600
which temporarily increases the amount
of endocannabinoids in your system.

549
00:33:56,340 --> 00:34:01,280
And so if you, uh, created, uh, what
they did in an experimental model,

550
00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:05,640
a permanent FA inhibitor drug,
which irreversibly binds fa,

551
00:34:06,380 --> 00:34:11,240
you know, perol or Tylenol had no
effect. So no endocannabinoid system,

552
00:34:11,930 --> 00:34:15,840
no Tylenol. Um, and this is,
again, this is a fun example,

553
00:34:16,130 --> 00:34:20,960
an extreme example for us to play
with these concepts like, wow,

554
00:34:21,330 --> 00:34:24,040
um, I'm taking Tylenol, how does it work?

555
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,960
One of the ways it works is by
inhibiting this enzyme that allows my

556
00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:32,000
endocannabinoids to flourish and
be produced in higher than normal

557
00:34:32,140 --> 00:34:35,640
concentrations. It does other
things as well. And, um,

558
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:40,840
and so I think like there's one
example of endocannabinoid interaction.

559
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,840
And, and so the next time you go to a
grocery store, you know, look, there's,

560
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,440
there's an endo cannabinoid medicine
right there on the shelf. Um,

561
00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:50,080
but obviously, you know,

562
00:34:50,190 --> 00:34:54,480
endo cannabinoids are slightly different
in their activity than THC and cbd.

563
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,240
They share a lot of interactions. Um,

564
00:34:58,860 --> 00:35:02,320
and I think there are other things
we can think about. You know,

565
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,080
cannabinoids obviously interact
with the endocannabinoid system.

566
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:11,480
And I think one of the
ways that we can think

567
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,880
about it, um, is that, um, you know,

568
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,360
cannabinoids can, you know,

569
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,160
inhibit or enhance certain
activities of each other. And so,

570
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,080
you know, if we have, you know, uh,

571
00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:31,320
CBD in there and it's modulating
cannabinoid receptors to

572
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,440
make them more difficult to be
activated, it's actually an, um,

573
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:39,440
a negative allosteric
modulator of CB one. You know,

574
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:43,120
what does that do to your natural
anandamide signaling, right?

575
00:35:43,130 --> 00:35:46,680
So CBD can definitely influence that. Um,

576
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,360
and I think we can think about
other aspects, um, there as well.

577
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:52,000
It's, you know,

578
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,520
I wish I had like a virtual whiteboard
to start drawing out circles and charts,

579
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,640
but let me try to sum it up
real quickly. So, you know,

580
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,960
CBD is a great one to talk about
cause it does a lot of, lot of things.

581
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,360
It's a very promiscuous,
uh, molecule, but it,

582
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:13,240
it increases anandamide levels cuz CBD
does have a little bit of fa inhibitor

583
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,760
activity. So it increases anandamide
levels that stimulates a bunch of other

584
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,560
channels. Um, and, and
receptors like Trip V one, um,

585
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,360
if you're heard of vlo receptors
trip V one something you,

586
00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:30,320
you stimulate every day. If
you eat spicy food, um, it's,

587
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,400
it's a capsaicin from chili peppers
stimulates it. And so, you know,

588
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,680
you could take, uh, you know,

589
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,000
CBD increases in anandamide
levels or you're an,

590
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:42,320
or if you just have naturally
high in anite levels,

591
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:46,080
this will counteract or antagonize, uh,

592
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,040
the effect of potentially of, um,

593
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:53,920
of CB one receptors on, on glu
liturgic neurons. And so you can,

594
00:36:54,450 --> 00:36:55,920
um, you know,

595
00:36:55,980 --> 00:37:00,480
one thing that THC does is it
slows brain activity a little bit.

596
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,840
And what I mean by brain activity
doesn't like make your brain dead,

597
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,880
but it's one of the reasons
it has a benefit, right?

598
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,840
Is that people talk about cytotoxicity
excessively active neurons. You,

599
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,960
if you have seizure or traumatic injury,

600
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,240
your neurons might be firing like crazy
and firing until they kill themselves.

601
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:18,720
Just like release, release, release,
stimulate, stimulate, stimulate, you know,

602
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:20,440
red alert, red alert. Um.

603
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:21,530
And.

604
00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:23,400
Uh, you can decrease that signaling.

605
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,880
That's why one of the reasons it
makes it hard to remember stuff. Um,

606
00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:31,120
but it also makes it, you know, makes
it harder to receive a pain signal. So,

607
00:37:31,450 --> 00:37:33,000
so what happens is, uh,

608
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,480
just simply put THC hits a receptor
decreases in glutamate release.

609
00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:40,120
Um, however, uh,

610
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,520
you can also enhance glutamate
release by stimulating trip receptors.

611
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,280
And so you could have this sort of give
and take these forces going in different

612
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,240
directions, um, to impact
it. So I know that was a,

613
00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:56,480
a little bit of a heady response.
Um, you know, but I mean,

614
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,360
there's lots of examples,
um, like this, like, um.

615
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,640
That's probably the one we need
for now though <laugh>, um, uh, uh,

616
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,120
because you're right, it is,

617
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,760
it is incredibly complex and we're
certainly not going to be able to explain

618
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,200
them all. But, um, in, in one episode.

619
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,520
But you made the point very clearly
that we need to not go into this with

620
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,840
assumptions that a,

621
00:38:19,250 --> 00:38:23,760
we know what's going to happen based
on science that might be outmoded,

622
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:26,560
and that individuals and the, you know,

623
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,480
really show the importance
of individualized medicine
and that cannabis can do

624
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,480
that. And then also in a way,

625
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,280
we're kind of like already swimming
in all of these drug compounds that,

626
00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:41,160
that, you know, we're
taking from over the,

627
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,200
or over the counter drugs plus any
pharmaceuticals that were being offered.

628
00:38:45,590 --> 00:38:49,920
Plus, you know, you add to it maybe
some cannabinoids and, and you know,

629
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,120
maybe somebody is also
microdosing mushrooms. And,

630
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,840
and suddenly now there's
this like the, this soup of,

631
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,000
of different drug drug
interactions going on, and,

632
00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:04,320
and there's no surprise that,
that there would be some,

633
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,880
some sometimes unexpected effects.
And before you jump on that,

634
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,840
cause I can almost feel
you going for it. <laugh>,

635
00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:12,640
we need to take our first short
break. We'll be right back.

636
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:15,520
You are listening to
Shaping Fire and my guest,

637
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,640
today's molecular
pharmacologist j Marcou PhD,

638
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,970
You've heard me talk about
the award-winning cannabis
seeds that come from the

639
00:39:25,970 --> 00:39:28,730
analytical breeding program
of Seth and Eric Crawford,

640
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:31,370
who founded Oregon's CBD seeds. In fact,

641
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,090
Seth was a guest on shaping fire
in 2020 to talk about triploid

642
00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:36,923
genetics.

643
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,890
Seth and Eric are now releasing high
THC seeds for home growers and farms

644
00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:46,370
as grow the revolution seeds@gtrseeds.com.

645
00:39:47,090 --> 00:39:52,010
Their high THC seeds are extraordinary
in that they will start to flower at

646
00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:56,970
16 and a half hours of daylight instead
of the typical 14 and a half hours of

647
00:39:56,970 --> 00:39:59,450
daylight. That means in most regions,

648
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,170
your plants will start to flower outdoors
in the middle of July instead of the

649
00:40:04,170 --> 00:40:05,050
middle of August,

650
00:40:05,050 --> 00:40:09,650
which means these photo period plants
finish in September and not October

651
00:40:09,820 --> 00:40:12,490
totally upending the
photo period seed market.

652
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,970
Seth and Eric took their prized
early flowering c BG line and bred

653
00:40:17,970 --> 00:40:22,650
to some of the most desired verified
genetics out there, including sour diesel,

654
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:26,410
triangle, Kush, wedding cake,
chem dogs, Skittles, and others.

655
00:40:26,730 --> 00:40:31,570
These crosses all expressed powerful
photo period terpene profiles and THC

656
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,090
giving you a great high.

657
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,410
G T R seeds has a new t h CV
line with plants like double

658
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:43,330
Durbin and gigantor that boast
one-to-one th hc to th hcv.

659
00:40:43,470 --> 00:40:44,610
And people want that.

660
00:40:44,770 --> 00:40:48,570
T hcv GTR seeds are very consistent,

661
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,570
true growing in-bred F1 s from
stabilized in-bred parent lines.

662
00:40:53,770 --> 00:40:58,610
These seeds are nearly homogeneous and
the plants should all grow the same.

663
00:40:58,690 --> 00:41:03,450
There is only one phenotype in
every pack available as Diploids and

664
00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:07,010
Triploids. Seth and Eric's
company is still family owned,

665
00:41:07,010 --> 00:41:08,490
patient and employee-centric,

666
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:11,690
and partially powered by their
two acres of solar panels.

667
00:41:12,610 --> 00:41:15,970
Everyone can purchase these seeds
in the entire catalog of Oregon C

668
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:19,370
seeds@ggtrseeds.com.

669
00:41:19,820 --> 00:41:24,570
Go to gtr seeds.com today and choose
something revolutionary for your next

670
00:41:24,570 --> 00:41:25,970
indoor or outdoor run.

671
00:41:28,590 --> 00:41:32,690
The cannabis seed market is filled with
big name and hype breeders fighting to

672
00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:33,523
get your attention,

673
00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:37,240
and occasionally you discover a breeder
who is breeding because it is the only

674
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:38,280
thing they care to do,

675
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,920
and they would be doing it
even if they never made a dime.

676
00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:45,800
That's my friend Craig Harza, who
makes seeds as magnetic genetics.

677
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:50,080
Craig comes from five generations of
farmers and is earning his master's degree

678
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,160
in horticulture right now.

679
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:55,240
He's been growing cannabis for 15
years and been breeding for nine.

680
00:41:55,850 --> 00:41:59,040
He hasn't sold many seeds because
he really isn't a sales guy,

681
00:41:59,060 --> 00:42:01,360
but I've personally been
growing his seeds for years,

682
00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:05,000
and I know I can always rely on
his seeds to germinate, thrive,

683
00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:06,480
and smell and taste great.

684
00:42:07,070 --> 00:42:11,240
I suggested to Craig that
he should probably sell some
seeds and asked if he had

685
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,400
enough stockpiled to
bother. Much to my shock,

686
00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:18,960
he was sitting on five full menus in
cold storage that he produced in the last

687
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,480
two years and hadn't even
tried to sell any of 'em.

688
00:42:21,570 --> 00:42:25,480
He was simply too busy
breeding. Well, we, his friends,

689
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,280
convinced him to make his damn seeds
available to the people. And now they are.

690
00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:31,200
For the first time anywhere,

691
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,800
you can now buy magnetic genetic seeds
at Neptune Seed Bank and on strain

692
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:36,640
lee.io.

693
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:42,080
Neptune Seed Bank has just
picked up magnetic genetics
for a trial to gauge your

694
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,960
interest, they are carrying
three strains from his mean mug,

695
00:42:46,070 --> 00:42:50,040
prominence and turpen NATO menus,
which are exclusive to Neptune.

696
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:52,480
It's an easy way to score his seeds.

697
00:42:52,980 --> 00:42:56,560
You can pick up those menus
plus his hillbilly, skunk,

698
00:42:56,580 --> 00:43:01,400
and candy breath crosses and more on
his profile page on strain lee.io.

699
00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:06,920
If you want very affordable seeds that
are exceptional quality with rare terpene

700
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,240
profiles from a good guy,

701
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:12,640
go to neptune seed
bank.com or strain lee.io.

702
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,040
Sometimes it is fun to buy the hype
thing from the brand you admire,

703
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:20,680
but when you're ready to buy the
strain you'll love from an obscure mad

704
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,520
scientist, you're ready
for magnetic genetics,

705
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,600
magnetic genetics.org and on
Instagram magnetic genetics.

706
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,400
There are a lot of good people
launching new businesses in cannabis,

707
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:38,240
psilocybin and other psychedelics,
and it's a very strange time for us.

708
00:43:38,610 --> 00:43:42,360
In the same moment that
psilocybin mushrooms are
illegal at the federal level,

709
00:43:42,450 --> 00:43:45,800
they're becoming increasingly
legal in states across the country.

710
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,480
These businesses leading the way into
the future of plant medicines require

711
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,960
specialized legal representation by
attorneys who have depth not only in

712
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,880
litigation, mergers and acquisitions,

713
00:43:57,060 --> 00:43:59,880
but also in psychedelic
and other plant medicines.

714
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,560
Green Light Law Group has been empowering
cannabis businesses since 2014,

715
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:10,040
and as the market has diversified into
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716
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,840
green light has been right there evolving
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717
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,120
legal expertise with a
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718
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719
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,240
understanding of both business
law and plant medicine.

720
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If you are a business owner trying to
navigate the layered local and national

721
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,440
national drug laws on your own,

722
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you are at risk of fumbling these
confusing and quickly changing laws

723
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:38,440
complicate everything.

724
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,560
Green Light Law Group is ready to help
you when hit with a lawsuit or because

725
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,880
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726
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or simply because you wanna stay legal
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727
00:44:50,070 --> 00:44:53,200
before cultivating a controlled
substance as an entrepreneur.

728
00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:57,920
Greenlight Law Group is a collection of
folks who care profoundly about their

729
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,320
work. And I know this is true because
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730
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,560
There is a huge difference between a
big legal firm who has decided to start

731
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,440
representing a few drug companies
versus working with a collection of high

732
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:10,230
integrity,

733
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:14,680
passionate lawyers who are personally
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734
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,680
firmly believe in their power to heal.

735
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Contact Greenlight Law Group today and
learn more about the services they can

736
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,920
offer your industry leading
cannabis or psychedelics company.

737
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:29,320
That's Greenlight Law
group@greenlightlawgroup.com.

738
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:33,280
Welcome back. You are listening
to Shaping Fire. I'm your host,

739
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,640
Chango Lo semi guest, today's molecular
pharmacologist, jhan Markku PhD.

740
00:45:38,530 --> 00:45:42,280
So now Jhan, during the first set, you
know, you were very clear that, um,

741
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,880
we are seeing more of these
pharmaceutical and cannabis so cannabinoid

742
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,720
interactions, um, you
know, for two big reasons.

743
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,640
One being there's more people
using cannabis and, and then two,

744
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,800
there's more people researching it and,
and collecting the data on this stuff,

745
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,800
which is really great. Um, I
would have to think that like,

746
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,840
not only is there just like more
people though using cannabis, um,

747
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,960
cannabis itself is expanded. We're
suddenly accessing all these like,

748
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,280
new new cannabinoids that
we are experiencing in,

749
00:46:15,530 --> 00:46:18,720
in higher amounts than they
would've in land races.

750
00:46:18,940 --> 00:46:22,640
And we're also got like new ways
to use cannabis like dabbing,

751
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,160
where you're suddenly getting all these
terpenes and cannabinoids at one time.

752
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,280
And, you know,

753
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,520
it's not uncommon for for people to
like keel over after like a fat dab.

754
00:46:32,940 --> 00:46:35,280
And um, you know, there's just,
there's just like so much,

755
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:40,120
there's so much more than we
as humans ever interacted with

756
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,680
when we were, you know, you know,
walking the planes and, and,

757
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,920
and mountains and, and pulling cannabis
plants out and, and getting, you know,

758
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,960
the kind of land races they had, you
know, 10,000 years ago or whatever. Um,

759
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,240
will you speak to that? Like, to
what effect these new methods, uh,

760
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,640
and new ranges of cannabinoids
are having on, um,

761
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:02,400
the interaction with pharmaceuticals.

762
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,000
<Laugh>? You know, absolutely. You
know, I think, you know, our ancestors,

763
00:47:07,060 --> 00:47:09,640
you know, used to just eat
cannabis and, you know,

764
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,920
clear some land and there'd be more
cannabis growing and fresh cut land.

765
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,520
You know, they, they
didn't have, um, you know,

766
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:21,080
access to chemicals like butane
and shoved it in a tube and

767
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,320
extracted. I mean, they would
do manual extractions. And,

768
00:47:24,580 --> 00:47:28,760
and so I think it's always important to
remember that concentrating cannabis has

769
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,640
been, been around for a long time.
Um, you know, hashish, uh, you know,

770
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,800
Arab merchants, uh, used to trade
it up and down the coast of Africa.

771
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,440
Some of the earliest reports about
cannabis use are these black Hashish

772
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,200
bars, um,

773
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,840
with guys riding basically naked in
horseback into villages to trade, um,

774
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,440
these products. Um, but the
composition of the matter has,

775
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,200
has changed greatly. And I, you know,

776
00:47:58,340 --> 00:48:02,160
the, you know, this always
reminds me of, uh, a mantra,

777
00:48:02,350 --> 00:48:06,880
a phrase or principle for my colleague
Teresa Simon, who's epidemiologist.

778
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:11,840
And we've done a lot of database
mining, FDA database, adverse events,

779
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,200
databases, um, collection tools,

780
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,520
unlike the buds info.com thing where we
collect experiential data and adverse

781
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,080
events from campus products. So
it's a part of a student project,

782
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,720
but she says this thing seems like
every week at every meeting, she says,

783
00:48:25,850 --> 00:48:27,320
um, uh,

784
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,160
efficacy gets it on the market,

785
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:34,640
safety keeps it on the market. Hmm.

786
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:39,040
And I think if we've all been in the
cannabis industry more than two years,

787
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:39,873
three years,

788
00:48:39,970 --> 00:48:44,480
we can all probably think of one or two
products that hit the market cuz they

789
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,280
were effective. Where are they now?

790
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:51,600
And we have to really pause
and think about that. Um,

791
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,240
we have to think about a little bit about
our commitments here when we put these

792
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:58,040
products out there. And, you know,

793
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:03,000
I'm trying to <laugh> get back to your
question as I've meandered off the path

794
00:49:03,030 --> 00:49:06,840
a little bit. But it just
made me think about, you know,

795
00:49:07,830 --> 00:49:12,160
a lot of these products are
concentrating things beyond what,

796
00:49:12,610 --> 00:49:17,120
um, our ancestors would've, you
know, encountered in, in the wild.

797
00:49:17,730 --> 00:49:19,480
Um, you know, uh,

798
00:49:20,180 --> 00:49:23,120
CBL and all these other
cannabinoids. I mean,

799
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,960
they've never been consumed in large
amounts. It's unprecedented in our,

800
00:49:26,980 --> 00:49:29,000
you know, in our, in
our timeframe. I mean,

801
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,800
people even 20 years ago weren't
really consuming huge amounts of

802
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:35,800
purified cannabinoids. Even the,

803
00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:40,920
the distribution of cannabinoids and
products in concentrated products from

804
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,880
Morocco over the century says
not nearly compare to the purity

805
00:49:46,020 --> 00:49:49,880
and refinement of these
dabs waxes, shatters, what,

806
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,280
whatever you want to call it, uh, <laugh>
the stuff that looks like earwax that,

807
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,960
uh, <laugh> and things like that.
And, you know, we're this the,

808
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,480
there's no, there's no question.

809
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,320
Those are very efficient
products to deliver

810
00:50:05,380 --> 00:50:08,280
cannabinoids into your body.

811
00:50:09,230 --> 00:50:13,880
What is unclear is what is the trade off?

812
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:16,480
What are the, what's the
risk benefits to using that?

813
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,640
And do you need to use as much as
you're using or could you use less? Um,

814
00:50:21,020 --> 00:50:25,920
and I think that those are questions we
have. Um, you know, when we think about,

815
00:50:26,810 --> 00:50:30,440
um, you know, there's this old
question, uh, the dose, you know,

816
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,800
makes the poison, you know, nothing
is poisonous. Everything is poisonous.

817
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,320
It's all a matter of dose. And,
you know, we think about terpenes,

818
00:50:38,660 --> 00:50:42,720
you know, at ambient air
levels, terpenes have,

819
00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:44,720
are wonderful. Um,

820
00:50:44,980 --> 00:50:49,000
you walk into a grocery store and
if they've got that produce section,

821
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,560
it smells great to be there, cool
breeze, light, smell of chlorophyll,

822
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,640
and maybe they have some flowers going.

823
00:50:56,140 --> 00:51:00,200
But if you concentrate some of
those products, um, you know,

824
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,960
you'll find them in as cleaning
agents. Uh, laine is a good one.

825
00:51:04,350 --> 00:51:09,080
It's delicious and refreshing and
uplifting and lemonade and even

826
00:51:09,250 --> 00:51:12,200
on a cannabis product has been reported.

827
00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:16,280
But if you concentrate it, it
makes a great cleaning agent.

828
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,760
It can strip a sticker
off a metal wall. Um,

829
00:51:20,060 --> 00:51:24,320
not necessarily something you want
to inhale into your lungs is a pure

830
00:51:24,340 --> 00:51:28,240
concentrated terpenes. And,
and it, it also depends again,

831
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:32,760
like there are terpenes that
you shouldn't even use in a

832
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:37,760
diffuser if you have a small pet
like a cat. Um, and so again,

833
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:41,120
I think we always have to think about, um,

834
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:44,680
that some of these compounds
do carry risks. Uh,

835
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,920
it's not like they're safe at any level.
<laugh> yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

836
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,560
you know, without risk at any level. And,

837
00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:54,000
and what I'm really talking
about here is, you know, uh,

838
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,320
there are moments where we should
pause and think. There are,

839
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,240
there are red lights,
there are yellow lights,

840
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:01,240
there's proceed with normal precautions.

841
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:04,680
There's proceed with extra precautions
and there's considered alternatives.

842
00:52:05,020 --> 00:52:07,320
And I think, you know,

843
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,280
we're really lucky that thc, cbd,

844
00:52:11,660 --> 00:52:15,200
low toxicity, great
therapeutic index, I mean,

845
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:20,160
they're both FDA approved in one
form. Um, you know, we're the,

846
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,960
the THC appears in three
scheduling categories. Um,

847
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,360
if it's below a certain
amount, um, you know,

848
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,840
it's been legalized in
the form of hemp. I mean,

849
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:33,160
hemp chocolates can have more THC in
them than a THC product you buy at a

850
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,960
dispensary. I mean, it's so
clearly they've, you know,

851
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,680
through regulation and stuff like that,

852
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,680
and even this public health experiment
we have going on, we found that, hey,

853
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,160
you know, there are certain, you know,

854
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:50,520
levels that are lower risk than others.

855
00:52:51,220 --> 00:52:53,720
And, and thc, C B D, again,

856
00:52:53,950 --> 00:52:58,280
just because they're relatively
safe doesn't mean that every single

857
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,440
thing on the plant is
relatively safe. Um, you know,

858
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,680
so I think we have to be,
it's good to be optimistic,

859
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:11,160
but also to have skepticism. Skepticism
is our friend, like, you know,

860
00:53:11,310 --> 00:53:13,640
okay, thc, cbd, we know about them,

861
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,280
we know about their acidic
components a little bit,

862
00:53:16,740 --> 00:53:19,160
but what do we know about the, you know,

863
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,600
other a hundred or so compounds that
can be found on it in small amounts?

864
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,050
You know, I think of, uh,
you know, things in nature,

865
00:53:27,310 --> 00:53:32,250
the most potent things in nature are
often there in the smallest amounts.

866
00:53:32,780 --> 00:53:36,170
Um, you know, if you look at
marine biology like nematodes and,

867
00:53:36,170 --> 00:53:39,610
and other stuff like that for
documentaries, they have, you know,

868
00:53:39,610 --> 00:53:43,010
really potent compounds for defense in
them. And they're usually, you know,

869
00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:47,810
small amounts. Um, and, you
know, we think about things like,

870
00:53:47,810 --> 00:53:50,850
I think it's T H C P and these
other things that are like, ooh,

871
00:53:50,850 --> 00:53:54,330
a hundred times more potent. And it's
like, what does that really mean?

872
00:53:54,330 --> 00:53:57,650
You know, what does that mean? Does it
mean it's just gonna be more pleasurable?

873
00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:01,050
Or does it mean you're gonna be catatonic
for three or four days if you consume

874
00:54:01,050 --> 00:54:05,210
a large amount of it? And
then, and these stories, um,

875
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:10,210
are not often popularized for, for a
number of reasons. But there are stories,

876
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:13,370
you know, back in the, you know,

877
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,130
back in the decades ago, uh,

878
00:54:17,130 --> 00:54:20,330
it was very common for pharmacologists,
uh, who developed drugs.

879
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,290
This is something they phased out
when I was a graduate student,

880
00:54:23,290 --> 00:54:25,650
so no fun for me. But the most,

881
00:54:25,650 --> 00:54:28,370
one of the most common things was the
pharmacologist to take it to see if it

882
00:54:28,610 --> 00:54:30,010
actually worked. Um,

883
00:54:30,010 --> 00:54:34,290
and it usually ended with a student
being doubled over a sink, vomiting. But,

884
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:38,410
um, you know, that was what people
would do. And I think we have to,

885
00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:42,770
there are lots of stories. If you go
to conferences and you ask around, oh,

886
00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:46,450
has anyone ever taken this compound
that's a hundred to a thousand times more

887
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:50,210
potent than thc? Someone
way tell you a story. Yeah,

888
00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:54,890
that guy was catatonic for five days and
on his floor of his kitchen, you know,

889
00:54:55,210 --> 00:54:59,170
<laugh>, stuff like that. But, but again,
that's not to say there are, I'm not,

890
00:54:59,170 --> 00:55:03,650
and I'm not saying that any compounds
like that exist on the market that we know

891
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:07,090
of, but again, I'm just wanting
to get the idea that, you know,

892
00:55:07,090 --> 00:55:10,970
small changes to a molecule, small
differences can have dramatic effects.

893
00:55:10,970 --> 00:55:14,010
You know, ethanol, we like to drink it.

894
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,050
Methanol can make us go blind. Uh, there,

895
00:55:18,050 --> 00:55:20,810
there's a very subtle difference
in their chemical structure.

896
00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:23,210
Right on. I want to tie a couple, uh,

897
00:55:23,210 --> 00:55:26,850
things that you said together for the
caregivers who are listening because,

898
00:55:27,110 --> 00:55:30,650
you know, as, as you know, everybody who
listens to the show knows that, like,

899
00:55:30,650 --> 00:55:34,370
I'm, I'm, I'm very patient centric,
and while I myself have not a,

900
00:55:34,370 --> 00:55:37,650
a healthcare professional, um, because
of the role I play in the community,

901
00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:41,610
I talk to a lot of patients
and have, have heard, you know,

902
00:55:41,610 --> 00:55:45,090
anecdotal stories and like, you
know, over a thousand patients.

903
00:55:45,090 --> 00:55:49,330
And so if you're a caregiver
based on what, uh, jhan just said,

904
00:55:49,330 --> 00:55:52,730
these are the couple of the takeaways
that, that I would offer, which would be,

905
00:55:53,060 --> 00:55:57,250
um, number one, um, just
because you've had a can, uh,

906
00:55:57,250 --> 00:56:01,210
a just because you're working
with a patient or you are
a patient who has always

907
00:56:01,210 --> 00:56:05,730
used cannabis and, and has used a
particular pharmaceutical for a long time,

908
00:56:06,330 --> 00:56:10,650
don't take out a possibility that the
cannabis and the pharmaceutical could be

909
00:56:10,890 --> 00:56:15,730
interacting in a new way now because
the cannabis that is available to you

910
00:56:15,730 --> 00:56:20,650
as a patient has now changed. Maybe
you're no longer just, you know, you know,

911
00:56:20,650 --> 00:56:24,760
smoking your home grow and,
and, and rolling up joints and,

912
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,280
and using that for your pain.

913
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,240
Maybe now you are dabbing and
maybe you are taking edibles with,

914
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,680
you know, 200 milligrams of
thc or maybe you are, um,

915
00:56:35,710 --> 00:56:39,480
you're dabbing and you are
supplementing with straight terpenes,

916
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,760
which I see people do, which
is like, is so dangerous. Um,

917
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:48,640
because there's, there's no
scientific history, uh, of us,

918
00:56:48,690 --> 00:56:53,080
of us dabbing straight terpenes
like that. And so, so, you know,

919
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,680
I'm not saying don't dab.
I'm not saying, um, you know,

920
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,640
don't amend with terpenes in your
edibles. Other things. What I'm saying is,

921
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,640
is you as a patient or as
a caregiver, um, uh, it is,

922
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,520
it is a helpful perspective to realize
that as cannabis changes and in

923
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,160
as it's not the same cannabis
that we had 30 years ago,

924
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:18,800
that the patient's relationship
with cannabinoids and the

925
00:57:18,860 --> 00:57:22,720
pharmaceuticals might change as well. Um,

926
00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:27,600
so moving on from, from that to, to
the next area, uh, Jahan, you know,

927
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,120
I wanted to talk just briefly about
isolate versus whole plant, um, uh,

928
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,520
medicines because, you know, uh, I, I've
warmed up to isolates a little bit. Uh,

929
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,800
I, I, I, I've, I've never really had all
that much good to say about isolates.

930
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,800
I'm a big fan of, of whole plant,
um, cannabis preparations. Um,

931
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,120
but I've had to be more
open to isolate as,

932
00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:53,800
as the breeding for, uh,
specific, uh, you know,

933
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,040
blends of cannabinoids
and plants is, you know,

934
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,320
going slower than we want it to go,

935
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:04,200
to be able to relieve the suffering of,
of so many patients. And so, you know,

936
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,960
before, before CBD was available
everywhere, um, you know,

937
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,760
we eventually figured out that, okay,
if, if you've got a THC type one plant,

938
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,840
but you don't have access to cbd, alright,

939
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,280
spiking it with some CBD isolate
in the presence of the rest of the

940
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,480
cannabinoids in the, in the whole plant
resin, that's probably a good thing.

941
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,200
And, and you know, you know,
uh, Dr. Agarwal and, and Dr.

942
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,800
Russo have all been on the show and,
and have said, you know, that's,

943
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,880
that sounds like a really good idea. Um,

944
00:58:31,260 --> 00:58:36,160
and so more of us are using
isolate, um, here and there to,

945
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,600
to spike our different
preparations. On the other side,

946
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,240
you've got pharmaceutical
companies that are using, you know,

947
00:58:41,370 --> 00:58:45,960
isolate and hand chosen
terpenes to make, um,

948
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,880
you know, uh, you know, the early
endocannabinoid drugs like, uh,

949
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,600
like Epidiolex, right? Which, you
know, you know, when I read the,

950
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,840
when I read the descriptions,
you know, it, it, it,

951
00:58:55,890 --> 00:58:59,760
it smacks of like kind of
Frankenstein's monster to me a bit. Uh,

952
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,680
I would much rather have a plant that
as a two to one CBD to THC with a proper

953
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:05,520
terpene profile and,

954
00:59:05,540 --> 00:59:09,520
and have it in the resin from the plant
and then just use the plant, right?

955
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:10,640
Because there's,

956
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:15,400
there's thousands of years
of good relationship between
us and the plant that I

957
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,000
think is less effective when we,

958
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,760
when we tear it all down and, and put
it into a pharmaceutical. But, you know,

959
00:59:24,050 --> 00:59:24,800
um, we have,

960
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,000
we're going into this direction and
it's certainly helping people and that's

961
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,520
good. So I've, I've had to soften my
opinionated <laugh> on this, you know, so,

962
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,720
so this is all circling
around to this question,

963
00:59:35,010 --> 00:59:38,560
is that when we're talking about
interactions with other pharmaceuticals,

964
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:43,280
are there any things that we should, um,
as cannabis patients or as caregivers,

965
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,720
be aware of how isolates might
interact with pharmaceuticals

966
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,280
differently than how
whole plant preparations,

967
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,080
like rosins and stuff might
interact with pharmaceuticals?

968
00:59:57,420 --> 01:00:01,840
You know, that it's a
question that, um, you,

969
01:00:02,140 --> 01:00:07,080
the answer is yes and no, you know,
to give a truly academic response.

970
01:00:07,210 --> 01:00:11,800
So, you know, spiking adulterating or, or,

971
01:00:11,860 --> 01:00:15,440
you know, can be one in the
same term. Um, so I might,

972
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,560
I might use them interchangeably as I
just kind of speak off the cuff. Mm-hmm.

973
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,360
<affirmative>, but, you know, mixing,
let's start with ancient times, right? Uh,

974
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:23,600
so,

975
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,880
so ch changing the composition
of something you're
consuming for the purposes

976
01:00:27,930 --> 01:00:32,520
of, uh, psychoactive effect
is, is not a new practice. Um,

977
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:34,160
I would, uh, I,

978
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:39,040
I I would give you very
poor odds against the idea

979
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,760
that our ancestors mixed lots of plant
products together and smoke them.

980
01:00:44,090 --> 01:00:48,720
Uh, I'm willing to bet that things
like lavender or camomile and, um,

981
01:00:48,850 --> 01:00:51,760
callous root, I think even some
of these have been documented,

982
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,480
were smoked and probably
mixed with cannabis.

983
01:00:55,020 --> 01:00:59,240
Not all too different in concept
from spiking with terpenes,

984
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:04,040
adding a foreign compound to
the mix, um, indeed likes ofx.

985
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,640
That's like what you're describing sounds
like hows OFX is made. Uh, the, the,

986
01:01:09,060 --> 01:01:12,320
the oral mucosal, the tinture
that's sprayed under the tongue,

987
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,400
that's licensed in over 30 countries,
but not in the United States. Um,

988
01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:20,800
that is two cannabis varieties
extracted by CO2 extraction,

989
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,440
turned in an oil and mix together
to get this nice ratio of a

990
01:01:25,630 --> 01:01:28,000
one-to-one THC to C B D.

991
01:01:28,050 --> 01:01:32,680
So it's a proven strategy or tactic, um,

992
01:01:33,010 --> 01:01:37,440
in preparing medicine and
making consumer products.

993
01:01:38,370 --> 01:01:43,280
Um, anytime you are increasing
the dose or your exposure,

994
01:01:43,630 --> 01:01:47,280
you're introducing new complications. Um,

995
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:52,200
cannabinoids are waxy and
sticky compounds. Um, and,

996
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,520
you know, if you're really
consuming a lot of the stuff, um,

997
01:01:55,530 --> 01:01:59,080
it can stick to everything.
It can stick to your teeth.

998
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,680
It can start to stick to your lungs.
There's been some people who, um,

999
01:02:03,910 --> 01:02:06,560
have way, and I'm talking extreme,

1000
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,800
like a lasagna tray of
<laugh>, you know, uh,

1001
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:15,320
dab sort of thing just to be, you know,
um, a little silly there. But they're,

1002
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,840
they're, they're consuming a
lot. And it can coat airways,

1003
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,720
it can collect on material and
things like that. And that,

1004
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:27,040
that, that, that may be a bad time
for, for some folks. Um, so again,

1005
01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:32,000
but that's not gonna happen with moderate
or, or low use of these products.

1006
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:36,000
I mean, um, typically
you can't, you know, um,

1007
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,200
what's sold in a lot of
adult use stores, um,

1008
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:45,080
regulated adult use dispensaries
is, is really not enough, um,

1009
01:02:45,250 --> 01:02:48,520
to induce some of these
things. But again, you know,

1010
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,680
chronic consumption of concentrated
products can introduce, you know,

1011
01:02:53,900 --> 01:02:58,600
new things. And I guess, um, let's,

1012
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:03,520
let's use an analogy. Um,

1013
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,600
let's talk like beer, right? Versus, um,

1014
01:03:08,300 --> 01:03:12,200
you know, vodka, right?
Beer, few percent alcohol,

1015
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:17,080
maybe 8%. That's a pretty potent
beer, right? You know, vodka,

1016
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:20,920
they don't even use percents.
They use proofs. Uh, you know,

1017
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,360
it could be quite, uh, <laugh>,

1018
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,680
it could be quite a lot more potent
by an order of magnitude. Even wine.

1019
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:32,000
Wine can be, you know, upwards
of 20% alcohol. That's, you know,

1020
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,160
twice as much that's, uh,
than a beer. You know,

1021
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,400
if you're talking 40 to 60%
by weight, alcohol, I mean,

1022
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,400
you could be adding a zero onto the
percentage of a beer, or beer is 5%,

1023
01:03:42,900 --> 01:03:46,760
and you have a alcoholic beverage
that's above 50% alcohol,

1024
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:51,160
that's an order of magnitude more
ethanol. So if you're drinking a beer,

1025
01:03:51,340 --> 01:03:55,640
you know, you have all these other things
in there. Uh, you know, you got some,

1026
01:03:55,750 --> 01:04:00,440
some flavor compounds, you know,
a nice big double hopped ipa.

1027
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,600
You know, they just, they smell amazing.
If you're into plants, um, you can,

1028
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,600
you can smell the terpenes
from the hops plant. You can,

1029
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:12,080
there are other compounds in there
that give it flavor and body and color.

1030
01:04:12,630 --> 01:04:16,200
It's, it's a bit dilute though, the
alcohol in that mixture. You're,

1031
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,840
you're drinking like liquid
bread in a sense. You know,

1032
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,600
if you look at like a
Guinness, for example, um,

1033
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,920
or some of those more heavier
beers, unfiltered beers, there,

1034
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:29,640
there's other components. Now, what is
the difference between a beer and vodka?

1035
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:34,400
Well, I just, you know, we can describe
it in terms of smell and taste,

1036
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,640
but you can also describe
it in terms of calories and,

1037
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:41,680
and what else is in there.
And is it better to drink the,

1038
01:04:41,700 --> 01:04:44,560
the ethanol in a liquid bread preparation,

1039
01:04:44,730 --> 01:04:47,880
or is it better to
drink it in a pure form?

1040
01:04:47,900 --> 01:04:52,760
And I wanted to use something that
perhaps people who don't use dabs

1041
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:57,480
or extracts or are considering
it to give them, you know,

1042
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:01,840
an analogy to think about when
it comes to these products. Uh,

1043
01:05:02,270 --> 01:05:06,960
I think the idea of adding a
compound to mitigate the side

1044
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:07,470
effects,

1045
01:05:07,470 --> 01:05:12,320
like putting CBD in a product
to decrease the potential

1046
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,960
adverse effects of someone
who's sensitive to thc,

1047
01:05:15,190 --> 01:05:19,200
I think that's a wonderful idea.
Um, and, and I'd love to see,

1048
01:05:19,470 --> 01:05:22,520
I think more, more of
that available to people.

1049
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,520
It's this form of compound
pharmacy, I think <laugh>. Um,

1050
01:05:26,940 --> 01:05:31,080
and so I think, uh, you know, it seems

1051
01:05:32,790 --> 01:05:35,600
like, you know, these
extracts have a utility,

1052
01:05:35,910 --> 01:05:40,240
I think especially in people with
severe conditions, cancer, chemotherapy,

1053
01:05:40,890 --> 01:05:45,440
um, extremely difficult to treat
neurodegenerative disorders.

1054
01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:50,160
You know, when we look at C B D, even,
um, you know, the average person,

1055
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,280
you know, buys a boutique CBD product,
might have five milligrams in it,

1056
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:59,080
maybe 20, and they're like, I
feel so relaxed. Uh, but, uh,

1057
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:00,840
if you look at what's
being used in the clinic,

1058
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,160
we're talking hundreds of milligrams
of CBD foreign effect. So,

1059
01:06:05,810 --> 01:06:10,160
um, we can't really say, oh,
it's bad and this is good. It's,

1060
01:06:10,190 --> 01:06:14,480
it's all a bit of a spectrum in
terms of the context of use and,

1061
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:19,240
and why you're using it. Um, but
again, the more you take of something,

1062
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:22,000
the more you have in your body. Again,

1063
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:26,760
I use the analogy of the guy walking
around town with nothing to do might just

1064
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:31,000
get into trouble if they walk
down the wrong alley. So, um,

1065
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,520
I think about that a little
bit too. Um, you know,

1066
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,320
if you're hanging out playing in the
street, cuz you got nothing to do,

1067
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,760
it's all fine till the wrong car comes
along, you know, <laugh>. So, um,

1068
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,280
there are things like that
I, i, I think about too.

1069
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,480
So if you're using a lot of cannabinoids
and suddenly you get a new prescription

1070
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:51,520
medication, um, you know, that might
present some, some complications,

1071
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,880
that's why, you know that, that they
have that advice. You know, go low,

1072
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,560
start low and go slow. Take it at
night when you're using new products,

1073
01:06:59,790 --> 01:07:02,720
it's to sort of give you like,
I'm gonna use it in a safe place.

1074
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:06,440
I'm gonna use a small amount and I'm
gonna write down what happened and how I

1075
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:11,240
felt just so I can start to track things.
Because no one's really, you know,

1076
01:07:11,530 --> 01:07:16,000
sh uh, shanga. I don't think either
one of us are saying, um, you know,

1077
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,760
we're not telling people not to use it.

1078
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,040
We think we're just giving 'em pause
to think about it, you know, and.

1079
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,360
E exactly, exactly know,
know what you're doing.

1080
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,840
And just because other people are doing
it doesn't mean that it's necessarily

1081
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,960
right for you. You know, uh, uh,
ma make, make informed choices.

1082
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:37,560
A absolutely, and I, and I
think about, you know, I, uh,

1083
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:42,360
I don't golf that often, um, and when
I do, it's, it's pretty terrible.

1084
01:07:42,900 --> 01:07:47,440
But, um, you know, I think the
same thing for cannabis is, uh,

1085
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,720
same thing. Uh, the things I like
in golf are putting the slow putts,

1086
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,840
the short distance
things, you know, hitting,

1087
01:07:54,350 --> 01:07:58,680
whacking the ball as hard as you can with
as much force as you can to go as far

1088
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,120
as you can, you know, taking
heroic doses of things.

1089
01:08:03,900 --> 01:08:05,040
You know, it's, uh,

1090
01:08:05,500 --> 01:08:09,800
you might spend a lot of time wondering
just where that ball is, <laugh>.

1091
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:10,910
<Laugh>.

1092
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:14,960
Versus, you know, putting, you got a
green, there's a lot, there's still a,

1093
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,320
a lot of fun there and a, and
a challenge there as well. Um,

1094
01:08:19,700 --> 01:08:22,920
but again, it's, it's different strokes
for different folks. But again, I,

1095
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:27,520
I would really just give people pause
about that because you wanna take a

1096
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:31,800
holistic approach with this and, and you
know, you, when it comes to patients,

1097
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,120
you know, especially avoiding
drug drug interactions,

1098
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:38,360
there might be a real strategy
here. Maybe you prefer edibles,

1099
01:08:38,420 --> 01:08:42,200
but the edibles stick around so long
because they're, they're swallowed.

1100
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:46,320
They go through GI tract, then they
go to the liver just like a pill.

1101
01:08:47,290 --> 01:08:51,240
However, inhalation
avoids that first round,

1102
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,560
eventually does get metabolized, but it
avoids that first round pass metabolism.

1103
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,920
So if you're consuming, uh, let's
call it healthy normal cannabis, not,

1104
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:04,360
not special cannabis, not, um, you know,
cannabis dipped in hash oil, not dabs,

1105
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:09,280
not cannabis with spiked with other
cannabinoids, but just good old fashioned,

1106
01:09:10,290 --> 01:09:15,280
uh, plant material, you know? And
you're inhaling that, you know,

1107
01:09:15,300 --> 01:09:20,120
you might be able to decrease your
chances as a strategy just conceptually,

1108
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,080
you know, the amount of
administration matters,

1109
01:09:22,190 --> 01:09:25,800
swallowing things makes
everything complicated. Um,

1110
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,440
there's a reason why savix,

1111
01:09:27,440 --> 01:09:30,000
and if you haven't looked
into nabiximols or tinctures,

1112
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:34,560
I think this is an area worthy
of further development. Um,

1113
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,600
taking a product that can be applied under
the tongue or in the cheek and absorb

1114
01:09:38,670 --> 01:09:40,600
buly, don't swallow it. Don't, don't,

1115
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,280
don't even visualize
yourself swallowing it. Um,

1116
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:47,720
I don't want any placebo effects on
this podcast, but <laugh>, you, you, uh,

1117
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,320
you absorb it buly, it goes into your
mouth and it goes right into your brain.

1118
01:09:51,630 --> 01:09:53,360
Like, why send the,

1119
01:09:53,780 --> 01:09:58,320
the cannabinoids on a wild goose chase
through your digestive track and through

1120
01:09:58,320 --> 01:09:59,200
the body? Oh,

1121
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,560
they gotta go all travel through the
whole body before they get to the brain.

1122
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,440
It's little, little crazy
trip they have to take.

1123
01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:08,200
So why not just load the magic
school bus and send it right,

1124
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,600
right to the brain and avoiding,
um, some complications potentially.

1125
01:10:12,610 --> 01:10:15,760
So you have option. You
know, the point of this is,

1126
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,280
is you only option isn't inhalation.
Your only option isn't oral.

1127
01:10:20,810 --> 01:10:24,480
Um, there are potentially other
strategies that you could use,

1128
01:10:24,480 --> 01:10:27,640
and I think these are great
conversations to have with the,

1129
01:10:27,790 --> 01:10:30,240
your PCP or your primary care physician.

1130
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:34,280
<laugh> not talking about another
drug there. Um, but, uh, the, or,

1131
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,400
or any medical health professional, um,

1132
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,360
doctors are trained to talk
about drug drug interactions.

1133
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,960
They can look up any of this information
quickly, or you can, you know,

1134
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:45,880
reach out to me or, or
check out, you know,

1135
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:51,040
rewind the show and pull some of the,
the, the references we talk about, um,

1136
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:52,120
and bring those to your clinician.

1137
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,880
I used to advise medical cannabis
patients and I did a lot of advocacy.

1138
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:56,600
I'd give them, you know, papers.

1139
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:01,360
I'm sure there's like a couple clinicians
at like Kaiser or some medical place

1140
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:02,600
in California are being like,

1141
01:11:02,740 --> 01:11:06,560
who the hell was giving my patients all
those peer reviewed studies and having

1142
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,760
them bring 'em to my office, <laugh>,
you know, so I was sometimes arming, uh,

1143
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,080
medical canvas patients
with peer reviewed studies,

1144
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:15,960
studies to share with their clinician
to have these types of discussion.

1145
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:17,600
How should I consume it?

1146
01:11:17,710 --> 01:11:22,320
What are the benefits and risks of
consuming these products, uh, topically,

1147
01:11:22,390 --> 01:11:26,960
orally, sub mucosally, um, by inhalation,

1148
01:11:27,330 --> 01:11:31,160
um, and these are all, and, and,
and in what amounts and, and,

1149
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:32,240
and things like that.

1150
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:36,920
So these are all great conversations
to continue to have. And as you said,

1151
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,840
it's gonna continue to change cuz products
change, varieties of cannabis change.

1152
01:11:41,330 --> 01:11:46,320
Um, and I think it's always good
to just check in about that.

1153
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:51,240
Right on. So, um, when we come back
from our commercial break in set three,

1154
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:55,920
we're gonna talk about some,
uh, uh, red flag drugs and, uh,

1155
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,720
ca categories of drugs,
um, that we wanna be, uh,

1156
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:04,440
especially aware of, um, if you are
a cannabis patient or you are doing,

1157
01:12:04,970 --> 01:12:09,200
um, uh, you know, caregiving for somebody
else. And, uh, we'll go through those,

1158
01:12:09,410 --> 01:12:14,040
um, with, uh, jhan. So, uh, we're gonna
take a short break and be right back.

1159
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:15,480
You are listening to Shaping Fire,

1160
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:19,720
and my guest today is Molecular
Pharmacologist Jhan Marcou PhD

1161
01:12:22,670 --> 01:12:25,960
Online Cannabis seed distributors
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1162
01:12:26,140 --> 01:12:30,080
but multiverse beans constantly works
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1163
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:32,280
buying experience that
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1164
01:12:33,190 --> 01:12:37,320
Multiverse Beans works directly with
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1165
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:41,000
your favorites as possible so that they
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1166
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,880
others have sold out. Some shops
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1167
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,080
but I get messages all the time from
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1168
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:53,080
asked to buy my entire run.
At multiverse beans.com,

1169
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,320
you can find rare cannabis
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1170
01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:01,320
including the Dark Owl sub-label
Maisto Genetics Square One Genetics,

1171
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,880
Robinhood Seeds and
Ethos, and so many others.

1172
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:09,400
Multiverse also initiates projects with
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1173
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:12,320
you simply won't find
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1174
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:17,120
founder Paul Law sees himself not only
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1175
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:17,740
available,

1176
01:13:17,740 --> 01:13:22,040
but also as a collaborator with breeders
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1177
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:23,960
market that his customers are asking for.

1178
01:13:24,850 --> 01:13:28,580
Multiverse Beans also creates exclusive
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1179
01:13:28,580 --> 01:13:31,700
varieties that are available free
only when you order those seeds from

1180
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:32,533
multiverse.

1181
01:13:32,980 --> 01:13:37,820
Check out their stickers like the
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1182
01:13:37,820 --> 01:13:42,460
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1183
01:13:42,460 --> 01:13:47,220
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1184
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:52,220
And when you spend at least
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1185
01:13:52,220 --> 01:13:53,740
from their special selections,

1186
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:59,300
you can get a 10% discount off regularly
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1187
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:02,380
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1188
01:14:03,010 --> 01:14:06,260
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1189
01:14:06,260 --> 01:14:07,460
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1190
01:14:08,270 --> 01:14:13,080
So go to multiverse beans.com
now for a buying experience you

1191
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:14,120
won't get anywhere else.

1192
01:14:16,610 --> 01:14:20,360
As cannabis regulations become more
demanding and consumers become more

1193
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:20,920
educated,

1194
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:24,480
it is increasingly important to avoid
the use of chemical pesticides when

1195
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:25,360
cultivating cannabis.

1196
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:29,200
Beneficial insects have been used
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1197
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:32,400
vegetable and ornamental
plant industry. And today,

1198
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:36,280
many cannabis cultivators are moving
from sprays and chemicals to beneficial

1199
01:14:36,290 --> 01:14:40,080
insects. COPT has the beneficial insects,

1200
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:44,480
mites and nematodes, microbials, sticky
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1201
01:14:44,700 --> 01:14:47,440
You need to partner with
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1202
01:14:47,850 --> 01:14:52,280
Whether you manage acres of canopy or
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1203
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:56,840
CPRIT is ready to help answer
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you transition away from

1204
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:59,880
chemical sprays towards
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1205
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:02,680
Since 1967,

1206
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:07,720
cprit has assisted growers in identifying
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1207
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,440
while providing healthy insects and
mites that will protect your yield.

1208
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:16,680
Since the 1990s COT has been a leader
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1209
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,880
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1210
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:25,680
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1211
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cobert can help. Visit
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1212
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:33,280
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1213
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K o p p e r t.com.

1214
01:15:36,900 --> 01:15:40,680
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1215
01:15:40,740 --> 01:15:44,240
you can also check their
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1216
01:15:45,140 --> 01:15:48,760
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1217
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:53,000
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Visit copt.com today.

1218
01:15:55,430 --> 01:15:59,510
There are so many seed banks nowadays
that you really have options in who to

1219
01:15:59,510 --> 01:16:02,710
choose. Not only that, if
you pick the wrong seed bank,

1220
01:16:02,710 --> 01:16:04,830
you could be in for a really sketchy ride.

1221
01:16:05,130 --> 01:16:10,070
And that's only one of the reasons I
recommend Gas Lamp Seeds to my friends and

1222
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:12,110
listeners who are looking for a seed bank.

1223
01:16:12,490 --> 01:16:16,430
You probably already know gas
lamp seeds as hemorrhage genetics.

1224
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:19,670
He recently changed their
name to Gas Lamp Seeds.

1225
01:16:20,330 --> 01:16:24,670
Gas Lamp Seeds is not just another
Seed Bank Gas Lamp is a female

1226
01:16:24,700 --> 01:16:28,910
operated boutique cannabis genetics
provider that only sells thoughtfully

1227
01:16:28,910 --> 01:16:31,790
curated seeds from the top
names in cannabis breeding.

1228
01:16:32,060 --> 01:16:35,950
With over 60 breeders and over a
thousand strains to choose from,

1229
01:16:36,010 --> 01:16:38,070
you will certainly find
something you'll love.

1230
01:16:38,610 --> 01:16:41,070
Gas Lamp Seeds has something for everyone.

1231
01:16:41,070 --> 01:16:45,990
With over 650 feminized
strains, 300 regular varieties,

1232
01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:50,510
and over 200 AutoFlow to choose
from. Names you know you can trust.

1233
01:16:50,510 --> 01:16:54,830
Like compound genetics, Humboldt
Seed Company, night Owl,

1234
01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:58,950
in-house, fast buds, nom
automatics and Ethos.

1235
01:16:59,570 --> 01:17:03,350
And we both know that there are other
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1236
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:04,630
have no customer service.

1237
01:17:05,340 --> 01:17:09,840
I invited Gas Lamp to advertise on
shaping fire after hearing so many good

1238
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stories about them From my friends,

1239
01:17:11,790 --> 01:17:15,920
they have a plus customer service
with lightning fast response times.

1240
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In most cases,

1241
01:17:17,550 --> 01:17:21,040
Helene and Caitlin will get your
order out the same day you place it.

1242
01:17:21,510 --> 01:17:25,400
Most seed banks are simply not this
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1243
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seeds to you so fast, but gas seeds cares.

1244
01:17:29,540 --> 01:17:34,000
You even get free seeds with every
order. Helene and Caitlin get it.

1245
01:17:34,110 --> 01:17:37,000
They have been in the cannabis
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1246
01:17:37,630 --> 01:17:39,040
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1247
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1249
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That's an extra $30 in free seeds.

1250
01:17:51,260 --> 01:17:56,080
Buy seeds from good folks who will
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1251
01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:00,040
time. Visit gas lamp seeds.com today.

1252
01:18:00,310 --> 01:18:04,280
That's Gas Lamp Seeds. Welcome back.

1253
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,840
You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shose, and my guest,

1254
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:12,800
today's Molecular pharmacologist,
jhan, Markku, PhD. So Jhan,

1255
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,680
you know, we, we, we've talked
a lot about, um, like the,

1256
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,400
the mindset and the
perspectives and the complexity,

1257
01:18:18,540 --> 01:18:22,760
and we've teased these things apart mostly
just so people can see like all these

1258
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:27,120
different avenues that we could
say are avenues of, of, of concern,

1259
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,920
but the really avenues of solutions,
right? Because usually by the time, um,

1260
01:18:32,030 --> 01:18:36,080
a cannabis patient is
either A, US and sick, or b,

1261
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,000
we are a caregiver and we've
been called in to help out. Um,

1262
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,800
usually there is, um, a
problem to be, you know,

1263
01:18:44,150 --> 01:18:47,320
resolved and and healing
to be applied. And,

1264
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:51,360
and so what I want to ask you is that, uh,

1265
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:52,920
there have gotta be some,

1266
01:18:53,030 --> 01:18:57,640
some categories of
pharmaceuticals that are just

1267
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,720
red flag because they
are, you know, like up,

1268
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:05,240
up at the top of the list of drugs that
are likely to interact with cannabis.

1269
01:19:05,580 --> 01:19:09,280
And, and while, while our
goal today has been to like,

1270
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:14,160
hopefully arm cannabis patients and
caregivers with lots of different ways

1271
01:19:14,370 --> 01:19:18,680
to, you know, dive into what
they're trying to suss, suss out,

1272
01:19:19,250 --> 01:19:23,720
um, there's probably a, a few that
we should just put a big red flag on.

1273
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:27,360
And so, so, uh, why, why don't we go
through two or three of these? So,

1274
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,800
so what's at the top of your
list of red flag drugs, um,

1275
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:35,160
that are going to interact in cannabis
in, uh, potentially sketchy ways?

1276
01:19:36,610 --> 01:19:39,240
So, um, things to be concerned about.

1277
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:41,880
First I'm gonna start with
alphabet soup real quick,

1278
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:46,400
and then we'll go into more
specifics. But if you're taking, um,

1279
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:50,680
potential drug drug interactions have to
do with drugs that are looking at sip c

1280
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,120
y P two, C nine,

1281
01:19:52,190 --> 01:19:55,200
healthcare professionals will know
exactly what you're talking about.

1282
01:19:55,450 --> 01:19:56,800
So if you are listening,

1283
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,720
pulling out a little piece of
paper and writing these down and,

1284
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:04,640
and then throwing them into an air
search browser will reveal all. But,

1285
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:09,080
uh, sip two C nine, SIP
180, 82 C two B six,

1286
01:20:09,380 --> 01:20:13,040
and C two C 19. Um,

1287
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:17,960
and even some of the acidic
cannabinoids, um, like T hc, T H C V A,

1288
01:20:18,250 --> 01:20:22,160
uh, C B D C B D V A, um, C B G A,

1289
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:25,080
these all interact, for
example, a CYP two C nine.

1290
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:29,600
So if you have taking a medication,
which is probably, you know, it's very,

1291
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:32,240
these are very common
targets of medications, um,

1292
01:20:32,420 --> 01:20:36,720
you could have a victim
perpetrator effect going on.

1293
01:20:37,210 --> 01:20:41,840
So a couple of red flag potentials,
you know, <laugh>, um, you know, I,

1294
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,440
I used to think like I want, um,
you know, I already, uh, you know,

1295
01:20:45,440 --> 01:20:47,160
I have my own podcast as well,

1296
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:49,880
and I thought about starting another
one just called What the Hell Happened,

1297
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,880
where people would call in with,
um, drug experiences and be like,

1298
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:56,480
I was doing fine. I was
having fun at this party,

1299
01:20:56,700 --> 01:21:01,440
and I just got lightheaded and passed
out, and like, what the hell happened?

1300
01:21:01,980 --> 01:21:04,200
And you know, these stories, um, you know,

1301
01:21:04,430 --> 01:21:08,880
j joke a little bit there to cut the
tension because this is about hypertension

1302
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,880
and hypotension and, and the
hypotensive effects of cannabis.

1303
01:21:13,390 --> 01:21:17,240
Most people probably don't
even notice, or it's transient.

1304
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:21,600
You've been sitting down
for a while playing a board
game or whatever, you know,

1305
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,520
FIFA on your Xbox, and you, you step
up, oh, I feel a little lightheaded,

1306
01:21:26,260 --> 01:21:30,600
and then you like, oh, oh, I'm
better now. But some people that is,

1307
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,840
is really severe. And so if you're taking
cardiovascular medication, I think,

1308
01:21:33,860 --> 01:21:36,240
and you have a cardiovascular condition,

1309
01:21:36,470 --> 01:21:41,320
it's a great idea to really pause and
think about things and maybe have a

1310
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:46,160
discussion because, um, cannabis does
cause hypotension. The blood vessels, uh,

1311
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:49,680
you know, will dilate. Um,
and, and, and the heart,

1312
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,200
heart will work a little harder to
pump blood around because, you know,

1313
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,960
things are a little more relaxed. Um,

1314
01:21:55,060 --> 01:21:59,920
but that hypotension could result
in being so lightheaded that,

1315
01:21:59,920 --> 01:22:03,080
that you have to sit down or,
you know, you really feel,

1316
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,600
feel the pull of the gravity of the earth
and just bam. And that that could be,

1317
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:09,720
that could be bad, especially if
you hit something on the way down.

1318
01:22:10,010 --> 01:22:12,400
So I'd say red flag interaction,

1319
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:17,280
cardiovascular medications that
treat hypertension. Um, you know,

1320
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:20,760
I I would say, look, look
into that if you're on, um,

1321
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:23,880
anything having to do with cardiovascular
medications. All right. What's an,

1322
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,920
what's another area?
Yeah, um, I'd say, um,

1323
01:22:28,810 --> 01:22:33,200
uh, warfare in, um, and I, I pronounce
drugs a little weirdly cuz I had, uh,

1324
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:35,240
my mentor was from Lebanon. Um,

1325
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:37,680
one of our collaborators
that I listened to a lot, uh,

1326
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:40,720
was born in Scotland and
spent 30 years in Australia.

1327
01:22:40,810 --> 01:22:45,200
So I'm used to hearing drugs, <laugh>,
pronounced <laugh>, really weird ways.

1328
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:49,840
And so, I don't know the quick way
to say apoptosis or apoptosis or ap.

1329
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:54,480
You know, there's all these ways.
So, uh, bear with me here. Um, but,

1330
01:22:54,650 --> 01:22:59,400
uh, warfarin is one, and this is, uh,
most people probably clot enjoyed, right?

1331
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:02,600
Right. Blood thinning. So
yeah, so you, if you take,

1332
01:23:03,210 --> 01:23:05,760
if that you could potentially, you know,

1333
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:09,800
this is where cannabinoids
are perpetrators, warfarin
will stick around longer.

1334
01:23:10,410 --> 01:23:14,080
Um, increased risk of
excessive bleeding there. Um,

1335
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:18,520
so that would be potential red flag.
Something to think about. Consider,

1336
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:23,440
again, that's where this mantra we
hear or start low and go slow comes in.

1337
01:23:23,850 --> 01:23:28,800
Uh, we mentioned Clobazam, and this
really is again, a risk of, um,

1338
01:23:29,220 --> 01:23:34,120
benzodiazepine toxicity. So, uh,
and, and most notably with C B D.

1339
01:23:34,610 --> 01:23:38,920
Um, so again, thinking about
benzodiazepines and cannabinoids, uh,

1340
01:23:38,940 --> 01:23:42,880
you may want to proceed slowly there. Um,

1341
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,400
central nervous depressants
could have additive effects.

1342
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:50,880
We already talked about that. Um,
um, the, the, a lot of the pens,

1343
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:55,000
the clozapine and olanzapine,
um, will have reduced efficacy.

1344
01:23:55,500 --> 01:24:00,120
And I think that that, um, you know, and
again, I'll just tie it in the C three,

1345
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:03,680
A four and CYP two C nine, um, you know,

1346
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:08,120
you should think about, um, those and,

1347
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:09,240
and drug drug interactions.

1348
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,760
If you have drugs that are
metabolized or interact with those,

1349
01:24:11,830 --> 01:24:15,320
I I would say discuss alternatives, um,

1350
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:17,720
that might be appropriate
in, in that instance,

1351
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,880
just based on the literature
and, and what's available.

1352
01:24:21,330 --> 01:24:24,520
It may not be clinically feasible, so
you might have to consider, you know,

1353
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:26,680
different routes of administration
or something, you know.

1354
01:24:26,810 --> 01:24:31,160
So you mentioned the, uh, the CLO
baan, which is a, a benzo diazepam. So,

1355
01:24:31,450 --> 01:24:32,920
so while that one,

1356
01:24:33,390 --> 01:24:36,520
most of us don't come
across in our regular life,

1357
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:41,160
but I believe another benzo diazepam
is Valium, which is like all through,

1358
01:24:41,300 --> 01:24:43,440
you know, our scene
and, you know, you know,

1359
01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:45,600
your aunt gives one to
you or whatever, you know,

1360
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:48,000
these are very common to
come across. Would we,

1361
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:53,000
should we be careful similarly
mixing Valium with cannabinoids?

1362
01:24:54,860 --> 01:24:56,170
Um, yeah, absolutely.

1363
01:24:56,170 --> 01:25:00,890
And I would say probably true for any
anti-anxiety medication. Like, so.

1364
01:25:00,890 --> 01:25:01,300
Xxx.

1365
01:25:01,300 --> 01:25:05,890
Librium, uh, even
anti-depressant, Zoloft Proac, uh,

1366
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:10,770
Prozac, Lexapro, um, just like
naming things off the top of my head,

1367
01:25:10,950 --> 01:25:14,210
you know, these things even like carry
over to the psychedelic space too,

1368
01:25:14,210 --> 01:25:16,970
you know, people, you're
not supposed to, you know,

1369
01:25:16,970 --> 01:25:21,570
go on a psilocybin therapeutic session
while on these things either. And so,

1370
01:25:22,140 --> 01:25:23,010
um, you know,

1371
01:25:23,010 --> 01:25:27,610
mostly what we're concerned about
with a cannabis or hemp product

1372
01:25:27,700 --> 01:25:32,530
is that these increased side effects,
dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, um,

1373
01:25:32,530 --> 01:25:37,530
and, and other difficulties when
you're using a diazepam together

1374
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:42,530
with something like cannabis. Now
again, everyone's gonna be different.

1375
01:25:42,980 --> 01:25:46,410
Um, some people are probably listening
to be like, I do that all the time,

1376
01:25:46,410 --> 01:25:49,650
and it's fine. And other people are gonna
be like, I'm never doing that again.

1377
01:25:49,710 --> 01:25:54,210
And, and what we're really talking
about here, I think is, you know,

1378
01:25:54,530 --> 01:25:57,010
cannabis can be a beneficial
thing in people's life.

1379
01:25:57,010 --> 01:26:01,010
And we don't want it to be a, a bad
thing. We want it to be a good thing in,

1380
01:26:01,010 --> 01:26:04,120
in people's life, or at least
have no net effect, <laugh>,

1381
01:26:04,690 --> 01:26:07,240
no net effect and a good thing.
That'd be, that'd be great.

1382
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:11,400
And so we're really trying to figure
out how do we prevent people from,

1383
01:26:12,220 --> 01:26:15,680
you know, having to outta the phrase,
I'm never doing that again. Mm-hmm.

1384
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:17,920
Or that was terrible. Um, you know,

1385
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:22,360
I think of how hard the cannabis industry
has worked to get where it is. And,

1386
01:26:22,460 --> 01:26:23,840
you know, you don't want a,

1387
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,560
a first time patient who could benefit
from cannabis to get the wrong product,

1388
01:26:29,030 --> 01:26:32,760
have a drug drug interaction, or a side
effect and say, you know what, I'm,

1389
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,280
I'm never touching that stuff again.
And it might have just been a,

1390
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:40,440
a simple issue as timing, route
of administration, or again,

1391
01:26:40,950 --> 01:26:41,783
dosing.

1392
01:26:42,150 --> 01:26:44,520
I wanna focus on one
thing that you said. It,

1393
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,320
it makes a lot of sense that
if you would take a, uh,

1394
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:52,160
a benzo diazepam like
Valer xxx and add, um, thc,

1395
01:26:52,370 --> 01:26:56,880
uh, blend to it, that you are going, you
know, you're, you are more likely to,

1396
01:26:57,020 --> 01:27:01,440
you know, have, have decreased d
dexterity and increase drowsiness and,

1397
01:27:01,440 --> 01:27:05,760
you know, won't be able
to drive your car as well.

1398
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:10,360
And these things that like
slow your human down. Right?

1399
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:13,360
That all makes sense. <laugh>, but
you caught me off guard when you,

1400
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:15,200
when you mentioned those SSRIs,

1401
01:27:15,210 --> 01:27:20,000
because so many people who
are taking, you know, uh,

1402
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,560
you know, some of these,
these, um, you know,

1403
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:28,360
long-term anxiety and
depression medications like
Wellbutrin and, and you know,

1404
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:29,920
that whole basket that you mentioned,

1405
01:27:30,150 --> 01:27:35,120
many of them also supplement with
cannabis either for quality of life

1406
01:27:35,410 --> 01:27:36,440
or just, you know,

1407
01:27:36,440 --> 01:27:40,960
because they still have residual
anxiety even on those drugs.

1408
01:27:41,290 --> 01:27:42,123
Um,

1409
01:27:42,150 --> 01:27:47,000
what is the mechanism of
cannabis interacting with

1410
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:48,920
this, this basket of drugs?

1411
01:27:49,020 --> 01:27:53,560
And is there anything that patients who
are blending those themselves at home

1412
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:54,440
should watch out for?

1413
01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:01,580
Great. Um, great question there. Um, hm,

1414
01:28:01,670 --> 01:28:06,310
hm, let me think about
that for a second. <laugh>,

1415
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,550
um, the MEUs of action, I mean
the, the antidepressants are,

1416
01:28:11,550 --> 01:28:14,870
is a very broad feel. Um,

1417
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:19,790
so we could think about maybe,
um, like flexine or, or Prozac.

1418
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:20,993
Um,

1419
01:28:24,930 --> 01:28:28,910
and, and you know, some of these have
like that one I like to talk about.

1420
01:28:28,910 --> 01:28:33,350
Cuz again, it has no known
drug interactions according to,

1421
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:38,350
to information available, but it can
have overlapping, um, side effects.

1422
01:28:38,350 --> 01:28:42,710
So that would be more in the
pharmaco dynamic area, um,

1423
01:28:42,710 --> 01:28:44,830
with some of these antidepressants. Um,

1424
01:28:44,830 --> 01:28:49,790
I'd have to dig in a little bit deeper
on some of the mechanisms of actions,

1425
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,310
um, with those pharmaceuticals. Um, fair.

1426
01:28:53,310 --> 01:28:56,110
Enough. Let, let, let's talk about in
use then. All right. So may, so maybe,

1427
01:28:56,110 --> 01:28:59,430
maybe I caught you off guard with
the actual, uh, pharmacodynamics,

1428
01:28:59,430 --> 01:29:04,240
but w if you are taking, um,
you know, one of these SSRIs,

1429
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:05,080
would these,

1430
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:09,400
would the side effects that you would
want to be cautious of when taking

1431
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,880
cannabis, the same ones as
the benzo diazepam, are we,

1432
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:18,400
are we with the SSRIs? Are we
still talking about, um, um,

1433
01:29:19,370 --> 01:29:23,480
uh, uh, like loss of
dexterity and, and, you know,

1434
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:26,960
sedation and difficulty
driving cars? Yeah. Or,

1435
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:31,920
or are we talking about something, you
know, potentially more serious like, um,

1436
01:29:31,980 --> 01:29:36,160
you know, serotonin poisoning or
something? I don't know, I'm just,

1437
01:29:36,460 --> 01:29:37,600
I'm just guessing. Right?

1438
01:29:37,610 --> 01:29:42,600
So you might, I think you might
experience, um, like, you know,

1439
01:29:42,890 --> 01:29:45,760
so some of the SSRIs
specifically, right? Um,

1440
01:29:45,870 --> 01:29:50,520
citalopram I think is a pretty
popular one. It's extensively me, uh,

1441
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:53,240
metabolized by, um, CYP two C 19,

1442
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:57,120
one of the alphabet soup things I
mentioned in the beginning of this thing,

1443
01:29:57,120 --> 01:30:01,720
which is one of the major enzymes
that metabolize cannabinoids.

1444
01:30:01,860 --> 01:30:06,720
And so you could run the risk
of having cannabinoids be a

1445
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:10,760
victim of an interaction, which could
make them more or less effective,

1446
01:30:10,790 --> 01:30:15,280
make them more likely to
have an unwanted effect. Um,

1447
01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:16,040
again,

1448
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:19,920
just going back to that analogy of the
guy strutting around town with nothing to

1449
01:30:19,920 --> 01:30:22,720
do might walk down the down
street or just, you know,

1450
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,240
it's okay to sit in the middle of the
street when it's not busy <laugh> and do

1451
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:27,360
your work that you need to do,

1452
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:31,640
but it can get more dangerous the
longer you sit there. So, uh, again,

1453
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:36,560
just to try and cobble together an
analogy. Um, so I think with the,

1454
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,160
some of those SSRIs, you might be,
think it could be go either way,

1455
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:44,400
victim or perpetrator. And this
is, you know, kind of at the limit.

1456
01:30:44,430 --> 01:30:48,400
I think of a lot of information out
there. Um, if even if you go, you know,

1457
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:50,760
I worked with, uh, uh, with Penn State,

1458
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:52,920
they have a cannabis
research center there and,

1459
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:57,200
and been advising and participating
with their center, and they put up, um,

1460
01:30:58,330 --> 01:30:59,320
uh, like a,

1461
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:03,920
like a little database where you can
put in cannabinoids and look up, uh,

1462
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:07,280
potential drug drug interactions.
And, you know, it's, it's like,

1463
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:08,040
I think of it like this,

1464
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:13,000
like they've made the beach and a
little bit of shoreline and you can wade

1465
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:15,200
into the water and explore what's there.

1466
01:31:15,460 --> 01:31:19,400
But if you want to go any deeper
and like see dolphins and, you know,

1467
01:31:19,620 --> 01:31:24,120
the shipwrecks and things that we're not
there yet with being able to go to that

1468
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:25,840
level of exploration.

1469
01:31:26,380 --> 01:31:31,080
But we do know that
SSRIs and cannabinoids do

1470
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:35,760
share common routes of
metabolism. And that could be,

1471
01:31:35,930 --> 01:31:39,160
um, something to think
about. Um, you know,

1472
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:43,640
cuz not every SSRI goes
through the, the same,

1473
01:31:44,450 --> 01:31:47,040
um, sip, but a lot of them do.

1474
01:31:47,500 --> 01:31:52,040
All right. The, the, the last,
um, medicine category I want to,

1475
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:56,360
I want to touch on, um, it may be a
specialty that you may or may not like,

1476
01:31:56,360 --> 01:31:59,440
you know, overlap with,
but, but what about, um, uh,

1477
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:04,360
children children's medicines, right?
Because, um, you know, the fact that, uh,

1478
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:09,400
children who have got, you know,
a range of issues, you know,

1479
01:32:09,990 --> 01:32:13,680
very, very easily pointing at
like immunocompromised type kids,

1480
01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:15,480
like they have, uh,

1481
01:32:15,480 --> 01:32:20,320
literally been the poster children for
cannabis medicine and helping to expand

1482
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:24,760
it, you know, over the last 20
years because, um, you know,

1483
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:29,640
the way that cannabis medicine
helps kids, uh, it, it, it, it,

1484
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:31,920
it pulls at your heartstrings
and people are like, yes,

1485
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:35,400
these kids should be able to be using
cannabis oil for their seizures and,

1486
01:32:35,420 --> 01:32:39,120
and let's get this law
passed, right? And so, um, uh,

1487
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:43,240
would you have anything to add
about interaction between, um,

1488
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:44,200
cannabinoids,

1489
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:48,480
which might be be coming from a parent
who is feeling desperate and other

1490
01:32:48,500 --> 01:32:52,480
pharmaceuticals that they might already
be on? And just to be reiterate,

1491
01:32:52,480 --> 01:32:57,160
we are not giving medical advice. All
we're doing is pointing out things for,

1492
01:32:57,410 --> 01:33:00,160
um, caregivers to stay aware of.

1493
01:33:01,190 --> 01:33:05,520
I am so glad that we're talking
about this because so often

1494
01:33:05,870 --> 01:33:07,480
when we talk about healthy,

1495
01:33:07,480 --> 01:33:11,160
normal adult volunteers
in a research study,

1496
01:33:11,160 --> 01:33:13,840
we extrapolate that to
the entire population.

1497
01:33:14,020 --> 01:33:17,480
And in the absence of pediatric drug,

1498
01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:19,940
drug information,

1499
01:33:20,980 --> 01:33:23,900
adult information is used. Um, however,

1500
01:33:23,900 --> 01:33:28,500
there are subtle differences
in development and all
sorts of things between

1501
01:33:28,900 --> 01:33:29,980
children and adults. I mean,

1502
01:33:29,980 --> 01:33:33,980
just look at the differences between a
two year old and an eight year old and a

1503
01:33:33,980 --> 01:33:37,820
15 year old right there.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
there's a huge, the, you know,

1504
01:33:37,820 --> 01:33:42,140
and so the magnitude of a
drug drug interaction in a

1505
01:33:42,220 --> 01:33:47,140
pediatric patient
population may differ from

1506
01:33:47,140 --> 01:33:52,060
adults because of age dependent changes.
You know, puberty and prepubescent,

1507
01:33:52,060 --> 01:33:57,020
for example, can change the drug
disposition or response. Um, you know,

1508
01:33:57,150 --> 01:33:59,420
in some of the early studies with, uh,

1509
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:03,380
THC C compounds in pediatric populations,

1510
01:34:03,380 --> 01:34:05,380
like by the late Raphael Ulum, you know,

1511
01:34:05,380 --> 01:34:07,300
they didn't really see what they thought,

1512
01:34:07,300 --> 01:34:10,820
what they would see in adults given
that compound. Um, and, you know,

1513
01:34:10,820 --> 01:34:14,620
the brains are still in a high state
of development. And so, you know,

1514
01:34:14,620 --> 01:34:19,620
there may not be the same response
to th h c or other cannabinoids,

1515
01:34:19,620 --> 01:34:23,940
and there could be other factors, dose
formulation, the dis disease state,

1516
01:34:24,210 --> 01:34:29,140
body mass, things like that. And
I'll say again, that the, the,

1517
01:34:29,390 --> 01:34:34,260
it needs to be assessed in children
separately from adults. And,

1518
01:34:34,260 --> 01:34:37,580
and this is a challenging thing,
but careful consideration,

1519
01:34:37,580 --> 01:34:40,940
you need to account for
age dependent changes. Um,

1520
01:34:40,940 --> 01:34:45,020
and you have to build a little
more confidence, um, about that.

1521
01:34:45,020 --> 01:34:49,580
But it is absolutely a
concern. Um, and it may,

1522
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,020
you know, these, these, again,

1523
01:34:52,020 --> 01:34:56,260
these DDIs are re routinely performed
in healthy adult volunteers in early

1524
01:34:56,620 --> 01:35:00,200
clinical studies. But, you know,
it's, there's a lot of ethical,

1525
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:04,400
logistical and method
challenges to, you know,

1526
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:09,200
doing these types of study in pediatric
patients. I mean, you know, uh,

1527
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:12,800
I don't know if you've ever tried to
get like a four year old to fill out a,

1528
01:35:13,150 --> 01:35:17,520
a form or a survey might
be a little tricky.

1529
01:35:18,330 --> 01:35:21,600
Um, adults can can do
that thing just fine.

1530
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,600
So I think there's a whole
range of it, but, you know,

1531
01:35:26,010 --> 01:35:30,880
po pediatric patients in the
hospital often receive multiple

1532
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:35,040
drugs. And so there are
efforts to characterize,

1533
01:35:36,210 --> 01:35:37,520
um, those things.

1534
01:35:38,010 --> 01:35:41,400
Um, I, I like this phrase that
you've got age dependent changes,

1535
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:43,240
and I know that you
were talking about kids,

1536
01:35:43,540 --> 01:35:48,320
but that definitely applies to
adults too, because I know that, um,

1537
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:52,560
the effects that, um, you know, uh, my,

1538
01:35:52,770 --> 01:35:57,320
my plant-based drugs and fungus based
drugs and my pharmaceutical based drugs,

1539
01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:01,800
they have all changed as I've gotten
older. And my reaction to it, you know,

1540
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,120
I was kind of impervious in
my twenties and now, you know,

1541
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:07,640
I'm a little more aware
cuz it's a, you know,

1542
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:09,200
it's easier to knock me out of balance.

1543
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:14,080
But I like that phrase age dependent
changes. Yeah. Um, so that could.

1544
01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:16,440
Give one solid example.
All right. Can more,

1545
01:36:16,440 --> 01:36:19,480
and this is across the board
example, cannabis is not special.

1546
01:36:19,660 --> 01:36:23,560
I'm just gonna say across
the board, anytime there's a,

1547
01:36:24,030 --> 01:36:27,560
I think morphine and
opioids, fentanyl, um,

1548
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:32,360
combined with anything in
a clinical setting, um,

1549
01:36:32,540 --> 01:36:36,320
can have effects on
respiratory depression.

1550
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:38,440
And so that is something I think,

1551
01:36:38,440 --> 01:36:42,280
especially when we talk about
chronic diseases, hospitalization,

1552
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:44,440
outpatient stuff, you know,

1553
01:36:44,440 --> 01:36:49,440
just because in adult populations
we're observing this phenomenon of,

1554
01:36:49,930 --> 01:36:52,480
um, decreased opioid, um,

1555
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:56,440
overdoses and deaths and adult
populations. Again, this is a thing,

1556
01:36:56,440 --> 01:36:58,520
like we talk about age dependence, right?

1557
01:36:58,690 --> 01:37:03,680
It may not be quite as clear
cut in pediatric population.

1558
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:08,280
So I just want to throw that out
there as like, um, you know, you can,

1559
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:10,960
you can look this up, uh,
don't take my word for it,

1560
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:12,760
do some of your own research, but again,

1561
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:16,280
you can find a lot of information about
while these are the potential most

1562
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:17,440
difficult areas.

1563
01:37:17,440 --> 01:37:21,640
Right on. So I've got two more
questions before we wrap up here. Um,

1564
01:37:21,710 --> 01:37:23,320
I know that, uh, you know,

1565
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:28,200
it was our goal today to
not answer every potential

1566
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:31,560
question that could be asked,
asked about this, because there's,

1567
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:33,320
it's just too complex. We.

1568
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,080
Would need 20 more minutes.
<laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>.

1569
01:37:36,450 --> 01:37:39,120
Oh. But, but our goal was to help give,

1570
01:37:39,430 --> 01:37:42,240
give patients and caregivers a, um,

1571
01:37:42,830 --> 01:37:47,800
a a perspective of how to
suss out their solutions in

1572
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:52,360
their unique situation. And so I, I
want to, uh, I want to kind of like, uh,

1573
01:37:52,460 --> 01:37:54,280
you know, kind of like throw you this,

1574
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:59,200
this kind of of umbrella question
for you to, to answer here. Um,

1575
01:37:59,290 --> 01:38:03,800
in what manner would you recommend
patients and caregivers go about their own

1576
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:07,320
research to discover if they
may be having, you know,

1577
01:38:07,740 --> 01:38:11,680
interactions between their pharma and
their cannabis, very specifically,

1578
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:13,120
let's say that either you know,

1579
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:16,360
you're the patient or you're the
caregiver and you're like, you know what,

1580
01:38:16,390 --> 01:38:18,400
I thi I think that might
be what we're seeing.

1581
01:38:18,630 --> 01:38:22,400
What would you say is their first and
their second step to try to suss that out?

1582
01:38:25,100 --> 01:38:29,470
Keep, uh, meticulous
records? Um, you know,

1583
01:38:29,470 --> 01:38:31,830
and that doesn't have to mean
you're journaling all day.

1584
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:36,590
It just means that you are
a bit vigilant about that.

1585
01:38:36,980 --> 01:38:41,390
You're controlling your
inputs. Um, so, you know,

1586
01:38:41,440 --> 01:38:45,550
if you're like, oh, I went to
brunch and, and drank four mimosas,

1587
01:38:45,550 --> 01:38:48,910
and then I took my medicine, and then
later that night I smoked cannabis,

1588
01:38:48,910 --> 01:38:53,070
and boy did I feel funny. I must have had
a drug drug interaction with cannabis.

1589
01:38:53,070 --> 01:38:56,750
And those, um, you know,
my, my prescription meds
well, could be the alcohol,

1590
01:38:56,750 --> 01:39:00,510
could be other things. So, and then
could be diet also plays a role.

1591
01:39:00,510 --> 01:39:04,790
So I think first thing to do,
get a journal, find the criteria,

1592
01:39:04,980 --> 01:39:08,670
find some baseline things.
Um, there's no shortage.

1593
01:39:08,780 --> 01:39:12,310
I think of like questionnaires. You
could even draw a smiley faces like,

1594
01:39:12,310 --> 01:39:17,110
do I feel frowny face today? Do I feel
flat line smile today? Um, that's a,

1595
01:39:17,210 --> 01:39:22,150
you know, people use those types of
charts, um, and things like that. Um,

1596
01:39:22,150 --> 01:39:25,750
different scales. So find your scales,
find your measurements. Um, but again,

1597
01:39:25,750 --> 01:39:30,390
I think, um, uh, keeping
track of what you,

1598
01:39:30,390 --> 01:39:34,550
you know, I have talked to patients
and caregivers in the past,

1599
01:39:34,550 --> 01:39:37,430
and sometimes I say, Hey, if you have
a label on a product, take a picture.

1600
01:39:37,430 --> 01:39:41,590
Keep a digital journal if you want to
do it. It looks almost like a scrapbook.

1601
01:39:41,590 --> 01:39:44,310
You have a journal. You, you
can peel off the product label,

1602
01:39:44,310 --> 01:39:45,230
put it in your journal,

1603
01:39:45,230 --> 01:39:49,630
or write down the information from it
and keep track of what you're taking when

1604
01:39:49,630 --> 01:39:52,630
you're taking it. Um, and, and
when you're taking other things,

1605
01:39:53,010 --> 01:39:56,110
and this is even a strategy that's
used for pharmaceutical drugs.

1606
01:39:56,110 --> 01:39:58,870
So doctors will be like, okay,
well you're taking drug x,

1607
01:39:59,130 --> 01:40:00,790
I'm gonna prescribe you drug y.

1608
01:40:01,480 --> 01:40:04,230
If you take 'em both in the
morning and you feel X or Y,

1609
01:40:05,020 --> 01:40:08,310
then then then take this drug two
hours later, take it four hours later,

1610
01:40:08,310 --> 01:40:12,430
take it six hours later. And so start
by taking, if you're new to this,

1611
01:40:13,350 --> 01:40:17,600
everything, you know, this is based on
literature that's out there, Russo and,

1612
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:22,520
and MacCallum have a great paper
on, on dosing strategies and,

1613
01:40:23,140 --> 01:40:26,720
you know, taking things at night
and low amounts, if that's okay,

1614
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:30,360
feels all right. You don't feel
the DDIs, you can, you know,

1615
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:35,240
start to play with the timing and the
dosing and finding that range where you're

1616
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:39,720
not getting adverse effects. But
again, if you don't feel good, um,

1617
01:40:40,140 --> 01:40:42,120
you know, it's, it's not great if you get,

1618
01:40:42,450 --> 01:40:46,240
if you get like all the side effects of
cannabis, like, oh man, I feel sedated,

1619
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:48,920
I feel hungry, my mouth is dry. Uh,

1620
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:52,080
I feel dizzy and I can't
remember anything. You know,

1621
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:54,480
that's like a lot of boxes
to check. And, and you,

1622
01:40:54,480 --> 01:40:58,880
and that may not be what you're looking
for from a product. And so again,

1623
01:40:59,270 --> 01:41:01,280
I think it has to do with, um,

1624
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:06,870
keeping track of the inputs, control
as many variables as you can.

1625
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:10,470
Um, and I think you, you'll start to,

1626
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:13,430
you'll find that there's a lot
of things you'd be like, wow,

1627
01:41:13,430 --> 01:41:17,110
I've been drinking caffeine
all day, and, uh, or I,

1628
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:21,510
or I haven't been drinking it all day.
And so I think finding those baselines,

1629
01:41:21,640 --> 01:41:23,310
um, will help you. Is, is.

1630
01:41:23,310 --> 01:41:25,710
There a database that you
recommend more than Google?

1631
01:41:25,710 --> 01:41:29,550
Because after the patient journals
and they've got some suspicions,

1632
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:34,550
they're probably gonna search these
drugs and cannabis and see what they

1633
01:41:34,550 --> 01:41:37,110
get. And Google may be our best option.

1634
01:41:37,110 --> 01:41:41,670
And I'm always a big fan of the
project cbd.org at conditions

1635
01:41:41,670 --> 01:41:45,070
section <laugh>, because that,
that's always great too. But, um, is,

1636
01:41:45,070 --> 01:41:49,430
is Google still our best bet?
Um, I mean, until AI takes over.

1637
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:53,790
Um, you know, you know,

1638
01:41:54,210 --> 01:41:59,150
the internet can be helpful
and I would look for

1639
01:41:59,950 --> 01:42:02,950
multiple resources that
corroborate your evidence.

1640
01:42:03,070 --> 01:42:06,670
Don't just take the
computer's word for it.

1641
01:42:07,060 --> 01:42:11,510
Find a couple references online
from different types of sources.

1642
01:42:11,630 --> 01:42:16,310
Maybe the Mayo Clinic, maybe pubmed.gov,

1643
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:19,310
uh, maybe from, uh,

1644
01:42:19,380 --> 01:42:23,590
a webinar where there's a doctor
talking about stuff like, use,

1645
01:42:23,930 --> 01:42:25,230
use a, you know,

1646
01:42:25,610 --> 01:42:30,430
you have to take on this challenge
using all available resources

1647
01:42:30,430 --> 01:42:32,710
to do that. Cuz things often,

1648
01:42:33,220 --> 01:42:37,230
just because the same study is
cited over and over and over again,

1649
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:41,870
doesn't mean the study itself is
reproducible and the results are

1650
01:42:41,870 --> 01:42:45,870
translatable to you.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And
so finding, um, you know,

1651
01:42:46,090 --> 01:42:49,870
the information from diverse
sources, finding the same thing,

1652
01:42:50,290 --> 01:42:53,950
the same results from different
people running the studies and,

1653
01:42:54,190 --> 01:42:58,250
and different reputable organizations
come to the same conclusions,

1654
01:42:58,750 --> 01:43:02,290
you know, that will help.
Um, you know, as they say,

1655
01:43:02,290 --> 01:43:04,770
try and find something written,

1656
01:43:05,010 --> 01:43:09,650
something you can watch something,
someone you can talk to,

1657
01:43:09,700 --> 01:43:14,210
to corroborate the evidence. Um,
and so I think, you know, that,

1658
01:43:14,210 --> 01:43:15,330
that is, um,

1659
01:43:15,440 --> 01:43:20,370
just kind of where we're at because
AI and the internet love to lie

1660
01:43:20,370 --> 01:43:24,730
to you, <laugh>, you know, there's,
that's the ongoing thing. Like, wow,

1661
01:43:25,020 --> 01:43:28,210
AI will just make stuff
up to make you happy.

1662
01:43:28,210 --> 01:43:32,970
It knows what you want to hear
or want to read or want to see.

1663
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:38,290
Um, and we have to always be
suspicious if we're getting, you know,

1664
01:43:38,290 --> 01:43:42,530
exactly hearing exactly what
we want to hear. Um, you know,

1665
01:43:42,530 --> 01:43:44,530
you're probably about to buy a used car,

1666
01:43:45,460 --> 01:43:49,450
so just <laugh> be be
careful out there. Um, and,

1667
01:43:49,450 --> 01:43:52,600
and I think that what I would say
is try and test things, you know,

1668
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:54,000
if we feel okay, if I believe X,

1669
01:43:54,540 --> 01:43:57,840
let me try and stretch
out X as far as it can go,

1670
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:00,200
this line of thinking until
it breaks. Where is it,

1671
01:44:00,200 --> 01:44:04,200
where is the weakness in
this, this, uh, rationale,

1672
01:44:04,480 --> 01:44:07,360
whatever it is you're looking at. Drug
drug interactions or significance,

1673
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:08,720
they're, they're not significance.

1674
01:44:09,570 --> 01:44:12,760
So the last question, um,
I want to hit on with the,

1675
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:16,560
our last two minutes here
is, uh, I, I want to, uh,

1676
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:20,560
go back to and plug the
buds info.com project.

1677
01:44:20,780 --> 01:44:25,560
You and I have talked about that, um,
you know, uh, be before we started and,

1678
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:30,520
and, uh, you know, the, the listeners
of Shaping Fire knows that we support,

1679
01:44:31,090 --> 01:44:36,000
um, cannabis research and we are
always trying to plug, um, uh,

1680
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:40,000
research that we know is going on. We
participated in, you know, Ethan Russo's,

1681
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:44,400
you know, CBD and CBG projects
before sending people their way. And,

1682
01:44:44,770 --> 01:44:48,160
um, you know, you've told me about
the the good folks behind, uh,

1683
01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:51,040
buds info.com and, and
I looked it up and it,

1684
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:55,120
and it looks like something legitimate.
So, so my question for you is, is,

1685
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:59,920
is what does the research look like to
unearth these interactions that you and I

1686
01:44:59,920 --> 01:45:03,400
have been discussing
today? And, you know, um,

1687
01:45:04,790 --> 01:45:07,480
what kind of research is happening,
what does that look like?

1688
01:45:07,740 --> 01:45:08,880
And then give me a,

1689
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:12,880
a brief plug for buds info.com
and then we'll wrap up.

1690
01:45:13,630 --> 01:45:16,080
Sure. So, you know,

1691
01:45:16,490 --> 01:45:19,520
my exploration and research
has been, you know,

1692
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:24,120
a lot of frustration with getting
funding Yeah. And grants. And, you know,

1693
01:45:24,730 --> 01:45:27,200
in some ways, you know, you're
always waiting on grants and,

1694
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:30,760
and maybe private funding from
the industry or stuff. And,

1695
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:34,120
and as time's gone on, I found more and
more ways, Robert said, you know what,

1696
01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,240
this summer I'm just gonna
do the dang research,

1697
01:45:37,380 --> 01:45:40,920
and I'm not gonna wait for funding.
I'm gonna bootstrap this, you know,

1698
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:42,760
I believe in it. I'm gonna invest in it.

1699
01:45:43,100 --> 01:45:45,400
And there's so many databases out there,

1700
01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:50,320
there's so much you can find
at the tips of your fingers if

1701
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:53,720
you're just willing to spend
time doing it. And, and,

1702
01:45:54,020 --> 01:45:57,960
and so unearthing the
research for me, you know,

1703
01:45:59,110 --> 01:46:02,580
um, doing case reports,
contacting clinicians,

1704
01:46:02,580 --> 01:46:05,580
and starting to unearth these things
where they have these patient files.

1705
01:46:05,630 --> 01:46:08,340
No one, they're busy clinicians, they
don't have time to go through 'em.

1706
01:46:08,340 --> 01:46:12,100
Some of, most of it's like, you know,
not, it's like, I can't read this.

1707
01:46:12,100 --> 01:46:16,740
This is not like the best of it.
You find nuggets, you find signals,

1708
01:46:16,740 --> 01:46:17,570
you know, it's like,

1709
01:46:17,570 --> 01:46:22,140
it's like searching for extraterrestrial
life and suddenly you hear an alien TV

1710
01:46:22,140 --> 01:46:26,300
show and you're like, what is
going on here? And you're like,

1711
01:46:26,300 --> 01:46:30,020
I picked up a signal. You
know? Um, and I have to say,

1712
01:46:30,950 --> 01:46:31,820
digging through,

1713
01:46:31,820 --> 01:46:35,740
we had a paper come out recently about
Delta eight THC derived from hemp.

1714
01:46:35,740 --> 01:46:40,540
And we combed through, um, you
know, the lead epidemiologist, um,

1715
01:46:41,230 --> 01:46:44,660
on the paper, you know, brought
this to our attention. Hey,

1716
01:46:44,660 --> 01:46:47,860
there's this database. We can
access it. We can run these queries.

1717
01:46:48,030 --> 01:46:50,800
We got a whole team together
to go through the data.

1718
01:46:50,820 --> 01:46:54,440
And it's really exciting
because, you know,

1719
01:46:54,440 --> 01:46:55,840
this is data that's,

1720
01:46:55,840 --> 01:47:00,040
people are reporting to the
FDA to poison control centers,

1721
01:47:00,340 --> 01:47:04,480
and it's just floating around.
Nobody wants to comb through it. And,

1722
01:47:04,540 --> 01:47:08,520
and I, I, we requested
more and more information.

1723
01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:13,000
They sent us case reports, hospital
files, you know, the products,

1724
01:47:13,450 --> 01:47:13,890
uh,

1725
01:47:13,890 --> 01:47:18,680
scanned and pictures of the products
along with the reports from the patients

1726
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,320
and why they showed up to the
er, what they were feeling.

1727
01:47:21,940 --> 01:47:23,680
And we came to realize that one,

1728
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:27,560
the classification system for how these
things are entering the databases not

1729
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,640
useful. I'll give you an
example. Uh, psilocybin has a,

1730
01:47:30,850 --> 01:47:34,440
an e at the end of it in the FDA database.

1731
01:47:34,440 --> 01:47:39,400
So if you search psilocybin, you will
find nothing. But if you search psilocybe,

1732
01:47:39,580 --> 01:47:44,440
you will. Oh, geez. So if you,
if you look up, uh, cannabinoid,

1733
01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:47,600
you may not find anything. If you
look up, you know, you, if you know,

1734
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:49,520
so think about Delta nine thc.

1735
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:52,320
Is it plus minus version or the
minus minus version? Like what,

1736
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:55,800
what version is it? Um, so there,
there are some issues around there.

1737
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:58,760
So it takes a bit of knowing
what you're looking for,

1738
01:47:59,420 --> 01:48:01,840
but that led us to create Buds
info. We're like, you know,

1739
01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:05,480
there's an explosion of product
diversity here. And, you know,

1740
01:48:05,480 --> 01:48:09,920
as a colleague told me, where
are the guardrails? And, um,

1741
01:48:09,940 --> 01:48:14,760
and so we, we decided to
bootstrap this. So buds info.com,

1742
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:16,480
please check it out, please scan it.

1743
01:48:16,480 --> 01:48:21,400
We are trying to use this to
centralize the collection of data,

1744
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:24,240
standardize the data. Right Now,

1745
01:48:24,610 --> 01:48:28,080
if there is an issue with a Cana
cannabis product, hemp product,

1746
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:32,720
and a vulnerable population,
it goes to local, state,

1747
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:37,120
or city centers and eventually makes it

1748
01:48:37,450 --> 01:48:40,800
or not at all to a central database.

1749
01:48:41,850 --> 01:48:45,160
So we may not, we may
never, some of this stuff,

1750
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:49,120
we may be quite late to the game to
uncover. So it's been very, I have to say,

1751
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:53,880
it's been very exciting to be sort
of on this forefront of public health

1752
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:59,240
where we're finding signals
and very specific ones. Um,

1753
01:48:59,460 --> 01:49:02,280
you know, you know, as,
as you would expect,

1754
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:07,240
there are not a lot of adverse events for
whole plant cannabis compared to other

1755
01:49:07,240 --> 01:49:08,760
products. Oddly enough,

1756
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:13,080
there's not a lot of adverse events
being reported yet for psychedelics.

1757
01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:15,000
But it might be, again, cuz people can't,

1758
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:19,640
finds Sabin in the database to report
it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so there,

1759
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:24,440
there are a lot of interesting
issues where we've been comparing and

1760
01:49:24,440 --> 01:49:28,400
trying to figure out are we using the
right metrics to detect these signals?

1761
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:31,040
And again, it's not about
saying cannabis is good or bad,

1762
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:34,720
it's about we want everyone's
ship to reach a safe harbor,

1763
01:49:34,940 --> 01:49:38,640
and we wanna know where that big rock
is in the harbor so you don't run a

1764
01:49:38,640 --> 01:49:40,840
ground. And, and right on. Yeah.

1765
01:49:40,980 --> 01:49:44,360
Let, let's bring this on home there.
Uh, Jahan. So, so what you wanna do,

1766
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:46,560
dear listener, is go to buds info.com.

1767
01:49:46,560 --> 01:49:50,320
There is a short form there for you. Um,

1768
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:54,520
it is very easy to fill out.
And the questions are about, um,

1769
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:59,400
if you've ever had adverse
experiences with cannabis and for

1770
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:03,880
you to describe that, um, I went ahead
and filled one out. It took me like,

1771
01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:08,320
like four minutes tops. And, uh, and Jay
hun, they're, they're, they're all, uh,

1772
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:09,160
anonymous, right?

1773
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:12,440
So they're not going into like some
tagged database or anything, right?

1774
01:50:12,710 --> 01:50:15,360
A absolutely not, it is
completely anonymous.

1775
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:19,800
We're doing this in full compliance
so that we don't need an I R B board.

1776
01:50:19,930 --> 01:50:23,600
So now the great thing about research
is learning how to be like when you need

1777
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:25,960
certain things and when you don't.
So it's totally a anonymized,

1778
01:50:26,270 --> 01:50:30,920
this was started by students.
It's largely run by students.

1779
01:50:31,290 --> 01:50:33,280
Um, and we are trying to perfect this.

1780
01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:38,040
And we think that versus trying
to find the Med Formm watch,

1781
01:50:38,410 --> 01:50:41,160
um, or, uh, a poison control center form.

1782
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:44,280
I think we have figured out the
<laugh> as you, as you just said, it,

1783
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:47,640
it takes four minutes to fill
out and it's easy. And again,

1784
01:50:48,390 --> 01:50:53,040
what will help federally regulate and
federally legalized cannabis is knowing

1785
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:56,800
the risks. And, and I,
I strongly believe that,

1786
01:50:56,800 --> 01:51:00,360
that if we can clearly communicate
that we know what the risks are,

1787
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:03,960
and we're continuing to a commitment
to track what those might be,

1788
01:51:04,310 --> 01:51:08,600
that I don't think anything will
stand in the way of complete

1789
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:10,760
legalization and regulation of cannabis.

1790
01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:13,120
Fantastic. Well, uh, Jan,

1791
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:17,080
thank you so much for joining
us today on Shaping Fire. Again,

1792
01:51:17,080 --> 01:51:20,120
after all of this time, uh, you know, um,

1793
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:23,680
this is an incredibly
complex area of work,

1794
01:51:23,740 --> 01:51:26,480
and I am grateful that you are, you know,

1795
01:51:26,480 --> 01:51:30,520
dedicating your expertise
to it amongst some of your,

1796
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,320
your other areas you love because, uh,

1797
01:51:33,320 --> 01:51:37,960
we really do need to get to the
bottom of this not only for, you know,

1798
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:42,040
patient care, uh, but also
so that we can get, you know,

1799
01:51:42,420 --> 01:51:46,720
normalization to have, be more grounded
and have its feet under itself better.

1800
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:51,520
Because, you know, we, we are, we
are still a long way from that. And,

1801
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:54,160
um, and, and so thank you
for coming and sharing your,

1802
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:59,040
your expertise and your stories and, uh,
and you know, your, your goodly nature,

1803
01:51:59,090 --> 01:52:01,560
uh, with us today, uh, so
that we could enjoy it.

1804
01:52:02,130 --> 01:52:04,120
Uh, thank you. And, uh,
thank you very much.

1805
01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:06,440
I guess I'll see you in 80
episodes, <laugh>. Yeah.

1806
01:52:06,440 --> 01:52:11,280
There you go. Well, hopefully
sooner than that. Right on. So if,

1807
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:15,880
if you want to, um, uh, hear more
from Han Markku and you know, you do,

1808
01:52:16,010 --> 01:52:20,280
um, uh, uh, he's got a couple of great
places for you to go. Well, first of all,

1809
01:52:20,280 --> 01:52:21,640
let's go ahead and plug, uh,

1810
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:25,960
episode 29 of Shaping Fire about the
cannabis product manufacturing standards.

1811
01:52:26,370 --> 01:52:30,080
Um, but, uh, Han's, uh,
uh, Instagram is great. Uh,

1812
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:34,000
you'll be able to hear about what he is
into from week to week and also where

1813
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:37,960
he'll be speaking. And, uh, that's
just simply at his name, uh,

1814
01:52:38,110 --> 01:52:43,080
jhan Markou at J A H A n M A

1815
01:52:43,190 --> 01:52:47,360
R C U. So that's his Instagram.
And also he's also, uh,

1816
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:51,960
pretty active on, uh, Twitter. And, uh,
that is also his name at Jhan Markku.

1817
01:52:52,490 --> 01:52:56,160
Um, also, if you're interested
in any of the aspects that I, uh,

1818
01:52:56,160 --> 01:53:00,320
talked about either at the top of the
show or came up along the way about, uh,

1819
01:53:00,320 --> 01:53:04,680
about his consulting, uh,
for, for companies or, uh,

1820
01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:09,200
legal folks, or if you've
gotten busted for dui, um,

1821
01:53:09,370 --> 01:53:12,640
uh, you wanna go to, uh,
their, his consulting website,

1822
01:53:12,640 --> 01:53:16,720
which is markku aurora.com.
And so that's Markku,

1823
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:21,520
M a r C u dash aurora a r o r

1824
01:53:21,630 --> 01:53:26,120
a.com. And then, um,
if, if you want to, uh,

1825
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:30,800
hear him wax brilliant, um,
about the, uh, cannabis industry,

1826
01:53:31,170 --> 01:53:33,400
um, uh, he has launched a, uh,

1827
01:53:33,430 --> 01:53:37,360
a relatively new podcast called
How to Launch an Industry.

1828
01:53:37,700 --> 01:53:41,640
And it's all about the, the, the,
the birthing and stabilization of,

1829
01:53:41,640 --> 01:53:46,040
of the cannabis industry and, and, and
what our best practice is going forward.

1830
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:49,800
And that is at How to
launch an industry.com.

1831
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:54,000
You can listen to the episodes
there, um, as well as, uh,

1832
01:53:54,280 --> 01:53:56,040
anywhere that you download your podcasts.

1833
01:53:56,930 --> 01:54:00,470
You can find more episodes of The
Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the

1834
01:54:00,470 --> 01:54:05,190
show@shapingfire.com and wherever you
get your podcasts. If you enjoy the show,

1835
01:54:05,190 --> 01:54:07,870
we'd really appreciate it if you would
leave a positive review of the podcast.

1836
01:54:08,390 --> 01:54:12,270
Wherever you download your review will
help others find the show so they can

1837
01:54:12,270 --> 01:54:14,590
enjoy it too. On the Shaping Fire website,

1838
01:54:14,590 --> 01:54:18,270
you can also subscribe to the newsletter
for insights into the latest cannabis

1839
01:54:18,270 --> 01:54:22,350
news exclusive videos and giveaways
on the Shaping Fire website.

1840
01:54:22,350 --> 01:54:24,950
You also find transcripts
of today's podcast as well.

1841
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:27,030
Be sure to follow on Instagram.

1842
01:54:27,030 --> 01:54:31,830
For all original content not found on
the podcast that's at Shaping Fire and

1843
01:54:31,830 --> 01:54:33,590
at chango los on Instagram,

1844
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:37,430
be sure to check out Shaping Fire
YouTube channel for exclusive interviews,

1845
01:54:37,430 --> 01:54:39,110
farm tours, and cannabis lectures.

1846
01:54:39,460 --> 01:54:43,030
Does your company wanna reach our
national audience of cannabis enthusiasts?

1847
01:54:43,270 --> 01:54:46,830
Email hotspot@shapingfire.com
to find out how.

1848
01:54:46,940 --> 01:54:50,990
Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire.
I've been your host, Chango Los.