1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,110 It is truly humbling to read or hear about a human who totally defines an 2 00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:16,870 area of life that their biography is indistinguishable from a discipline, 3 00:00:17,060 --> 00:00:21,030 that their history is also the history of an art. 4 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,830 Dr. Raphael, Ms. Shula is one such person. Dr. 5 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:28,350 Ms Shula was a titan of cannabis research, 6 00:00:28,350 --> 00:00:30,950 and his breakthroughs were breakthroughs for all of us. 7 00:00:31,330 --> 00:00:34,310 His setbacks set all of cannabis science back, 8 00:00:34,530 --> 00:00:37,510 and his successes were to the benefit of all humanity. 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,430 Today's episode is unique on shaping fire. 10 00:00:42,430 --> 00:00:45,830 We don't do company profiles or product profiles, 11 00:00:45,830 --> 00:00:49,830 or cannabis personality profiles. We always focus on a topic, 12 00:00:50,130 --> 00:00:53,230 and then I curate a guest who is an expert in that area. 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,830 Shaping fire is always in service of education instead of cannabis business, 14 00:00:58,510 --> 00:01:02,730 but today is different. Today we're going to look back on the life's work of Dr. 15 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:05,010 Raphael Ulum. And in doing so, 16 00:01:05,010 --> 00:01:09,330 you will not only get an idea of the expansive work and discoveries of Dr. Ulum, 17 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:10,690 but at the same time, 18 00:01:10,690 --> 00:01:14,370 you will get a really engaging history of the last 60 years of cannabis 19 00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:18,610 research. Even if you don't fancy yourself someone who listens to biographies, 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,130 you'll likely find that your interest in cannabis medicine and the history of 21 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:27,290 our favorite plant is plenty to engage you in the scientific work of Dr. 22 00:01:27,290 --> 00:01:28,370 Raphael Ulum, 23 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:33,370 who passed away last week on March 9th, 2023 at the age of 92. 24 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:39,050 Today's episode creates a portrait of a man whose curiosity and unbreakable 25 00:01:39,210 --> 00:01:43,170 stamina for research open the doors for all of us interested in cannabis 26 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:43,790 medicine, 27 00:01:43,790 --> 00:01:48,090 and made whatever cannabis normalization we are experiencing now possible. 28 00:01:49,330 --> 00:01:51,640 If you wanna learn about cannabis, health, business, 29 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,760 and technique efficiently and with good cheer, 30 00:01:53,910 --> 00:01:55,960 I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. 31 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,880 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,400 delivered right to your inbox, 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,720 along with commentary on a couple in the most important news items from the 34 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,000 week, and videos too. 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. 36 00:02:09,310 --> 00:02:12,920 Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. Also, 37 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,400 we are giving away very cool prizes to folks who are signed up to receive the 38 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:16,800 newsletter. 39 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,800 There's nothing else you need to do to win except receive that newsletter. 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,320 So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter this week and be entered 41 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,360 into this month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. 42 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,080 You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Chango Los. 43 00:02:31,810 --> 00:02:33,960 My guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo. 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Ethan Russo is a board certified neurologist and former senior medical advisor 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,480 to GW Pharmaceuticals. 46 00:02:40,870 --> 00:02:45,640 He's served as study physician to GW Pharmaceuticals for three phase three 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,320 clinical trials, OFS effects. 48 00:02:47,930 --> 00:02:51,760 He has held faculty appointments in pharmaceutical sciences at the University of 49 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,200 Montana in medicine at the University of Washington, 50 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:57,400 and as visiting professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, 51 00:02:57,850 --> 00:03:01,040 he has been president of, of the International Cannabinoid Research Society, 52 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:04,920 and his former chairman of the International Association for Cannabinoid 53 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,360 Medicines. In 1995, 54 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,160 he pursued a three month sabbatical doing ethno botanical research with 55 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,560 indigenous people in Peru. 56 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,000 He is author of several books of cannabis medicine and has published over 30 57 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,120 articles in neurology, pain management, cannabis and ethnobotany. 58 00:03:21,930 --> 00:03:24,920 Dr. Russo has joined us before on shaping Fire, 59 00:03:25,210 --> 00:03:29,480 episode 22 on treating traumatic brain injury with cannabis and mushrooms, 60 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:34,560 and episodes 11 and 27 about his famous research papers on cannabinoids and 61 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:35,380 terpenoids, 62 00:03:35,380 --> 00:03:39,560 and episode number 67 about treating migraines with mushrooms and cannabis, 63 00:03:39,890 --> 00:03:42,680 episode 80 on cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, 64 00:03:43,010 --> 00:03:46,680 episode 83 on Canero, C B G, and of course, 65 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:51,400 the shaping fire sessions on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel. Today, Dr. 66 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,080 Russo joins us to talk about the life's work of his good friend, Dr. 67 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,480 Raphael Meshulum. Welcome back to Shaping Fire, Ethan. 68 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,530 Thanks, uh, unfortunate that, uh, 69 00:04:03,530 --> 00:04:06,090 this has to come up due to this event, 70 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:10,610 but I I hope that the message that we impart today will be valuable to people. 71 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,530 Yeah, I think so too. I think, I think that making sure that this story is, uh, 72 00:04:15,530 --> 00:04:19,730 preserved for people coming up behind us is, is important, and it's, um, 73 00:04:19,730 --> 00:04:23,570 it's important to show the, the respect for Dr. Ulum too. So, 74 00:04:23,620 --> 00:04:26,690 so thanks for joining me today, um, for this very special topic. 75 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,450 I know you and Dr. Ulum were very close. Um, 76 00:04:30,780 --> 00:04:32,370 so to get us started for context, 77 00:04:32,450 --> 00:04:37,010 would you give us a little bit about your relationship with him before we get 78 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:41,410 started looking at his career? Um, just so people know, uh, 79 00:04:41,410 --> 00:04:43,410 from what perspective you're, you're speaking. 80 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:49,330 Uh, sure. So, I, I knew of him by reputation a long time before, 81 00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:53,890 but we actually met for the first time in 1999 82 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:59,050 at the International Cannabinoid Research Society meeting in 83 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,850 Acapulco, Mexico. Um, 84 00:05:01,940 --> 00:05:06,810 so this is the first time we had to the opportunity to meet one-on-one, 85 00:05:07,620 --> 00:05:10,770 uh, and, you know, uh, chit Chat, uh, 86 00:05:10,770 --> 00:05:14,810 he recognized my name as one that, uh, uh, 87 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:18,170 could be an Israeli name. Um, and, uh, 88 00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:22,730 I knew that he had been born to a Sephardic Jewish family in 89 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,690 Bulgaria and pointed out to him that my, uh, 90 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,290 father's family had come from nearby, uh, 91 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:35,290 in what is now North Macedonia, uh, town called, uh, Monae, 92 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:40,010 then currently called tk. Uh, so there was an immediate, uh, 93 00:05:40,010 --> 00:05:44,970 rapport there. Also, I was afforded, uh, 94 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,450 some respect beyond that, which I had earned at that time mm-hmm. , 95 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:55,130 um, by virtue of being a physician who was interested in 96 00:05:55,770 --> 00:05:57,760 cannabis in the endocannabinoid system. 97 00:05:58,210 --> 00:06:02,760 So that was a bit of a rarity then. Um, and, 98 00:06:02,930 --> 00:06:03,680 uh, it, 99 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,680 it gave me a little bit of an edge in people taking me seriously. 100 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:14,200 So, um, I know that, um, you know, I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions today, 101 00:06:14,610 --> 00:06:19,400 um, kind of asking you what Dr. Ulum thought of this or that, 102 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:23,720 and I know it's like, like it's a hard thing to speak for somebody else, 103 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,920 but you worked with him so much over the years and, and were also, you know, 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,120 kind of social, even even family friends. I, I think it's fair to say that, um, 105 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,800 you were pretty familiar with his thoughts on both medicine and, 106 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,160 you know, the, the world wri large. So, 107 00:06:39,370 --> 00:06:41,360 so I know that some of the questions are gonna, 108 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:45,920 will be more challenging for others cuz it kind of asks you to say what Dr. 109 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,000 Ulum thought. Um, so, 110 00:06:48,050 --> 00:06:51,120 so I appreciate the extra effort you need to put into that, 111 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,280 and I also appreciate that, um, you know, you're speaking for somebody else. 112 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,160 And so, um, if, if I come across something that you're like, you know, uh, 113 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,000 I don't, I don't think I, I would know what he would have to say, uh, 114 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,480 feel free to just move me on. 115 00:07:03,790 --> 00:07:06,360 Sure. So it's a responsibility, 116 00:07:06,420 --> 00:07:09,000 but [inaudible] take on willingly. 117 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,400 Excellent. Good. Thank you. So, so let's start, um, what initially inspired Dr. 118 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,840 Ulum to study cannabis and its compounds and, 119 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,040 and how did he become interested in the field? Well. 120 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,400 I think he nicely explained this in a resource. 121 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,360 I think all your listeners would, uh, be, uh, 122 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,040 very find very worthwhile to take an hour and see the film online 123 00:07:33,170 --> 00:07:35,440 at YouTube called The Scientist. 124 00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:40,880 So if they enter the scientist and Raphael Meshulum, they'll find this. 125 00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:45,600 Um, but, uh, to answer your question, uh, 126 00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:50,080 it was pretty clear to him. He, he seemed to be the kind of person that, 127 00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:54,840 uh, wanted to do something novel and important. Um, 128 00:07:55,170 --> 00:07:57,560 because of his good education, 129 00:07:57,650 --> 00:08:02,280 he was well aware of the fact that cannabis had remained 130 00:08:02,470 --> 00:08:07,200 a mystery, uh, for at least 150 years. Um, 131 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:09,280 for example, uh, 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,120 morphine was isolated from the opium poppies circa 1804. 133 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,440 Similarly, cocaine, uh, 134 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,160 was identified from coca leaves in the 19th century, but, uh, 135 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,840 try as a may, uh, 136 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,000 scientists around the world were unable to really get isolation of the 137 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,320 quote, active ingredient of cannabis. Uh, 138 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,760 in the 19th century, there was some isolation of a red oil, 139 00:08:35,950 --> 00:08:39,840 they called cannabinol, but it wasn't quite, uh, right. 140 00:08:40,530 --> 00:08:45,240 So he wanted to try to figure out what cannabis had 141 00:08:45,290 --> 00:08:48,080 in it. Um, and, uh, 142 00:08:48,130 --> 00:08:51,760 it just wasn't something that people were paying attention to in the early 143 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,640 1960s. Uh, so that was it. Um, 144 00:08:57,250 --> 00:09:01,720 uh, and it wasn't an easy thing to do. Um, you know, 145 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,960 there were some real challenges that he faced. 146 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,810 Yeah, I I can imagine not only, you know, you're describing how, um, how this, 147 00:09:09,830 --> 00:09:12,810 you know, scientists around the world were having a hard time isolating things, 148 00:09:12,810 --> 00:09:17,050 but of course it was all, it was all, you know, very much, uh, 149 00:09:17,050 --> 00:09:19,170 illegal internationally too. And, 150 00:09:19,170 --> 00:09:23,450 and comparatively it's relatively easy to research cannabis during, you know, 151 00:09:23,450 --> 00:09:27,410 this kind of creeping normalization that we're experiencing right now, uh, 152 00:09:27,410 --> 00:09:31,810 a lot different than when Dr. Ulum began his research in the 1960s. So, 153 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:34,450 so what were those challenges that Dr. 154 00:09:34,450 --> 00:09:38,170 Mac Schulman faced in his research due to the fact that it was, you know, 155 00:09:38,170 --> 00:09:41,170 not only not legal most places, 156 00:09:41,170 --> 00:09:44,730 but it was also demonized worldwide at the behest of the United States? 157 00:09:45,030 --> 00:09:48,770 Yes, absolutely. So at the time, um, 158 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:53,730 cannabis was by no means widespread in Israel. In fact, early, 159 00:09:54,060 --> 00:09:58,850 uh, supply, uh, came from Lebanon. Uh, 160 00:09:58,950 --> 00:10:01,210 the way I understand it, uh, 161 00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:06,010 people on the Lebanese side would come to the edge of the border and, uh, 162 00:10:06,010 --> 00:10:10,770 throw the parcel of hashish ch the barbed wire, uh, 163 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:15,450 to someone on the other side, presumably with an exchange of cash. Um, 164 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:20,090 but there were seizures of hashish. And so that's where he got his supply. 165 00:10:20,090 --> 00:10:23,290 It was initially from the police. Uh, he tell, 166 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,210 used to tell a very funny story about, uh, 167 00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:33,410 uh, getting help to, uh, go to the police and, 168 00:10:33,660 --> 00:10:36,890 uh, requesting five kilos of hash, 169 00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:41,810 which he put in his briefcase and got on a public bus . Um, and, 170 00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:46,530 uh, became quite o different apparently and root. But at the time, 171 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:50,810 people just didn't recognize the smell. He figured out subsequently, 172 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:55,930 uh, that what he had done was illegal on both sides. And that, uh, 173 00:10:55,930 --> 00:11:00,370 in future he had to go through, uh, the police to get a supply of Hashish. 174 00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:05,290 Um, but basically from their first five kilos of, of Hashish, 175 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,770 they used the latest, uh, 176 00:11:08,210 --> 00:11:12,650 techniques to get a separation of different components. And, uh, uh, 177 00:11:12,650 --> 00:11:14,690 found isolated, uh, 178 00:11:15,130 --> 00:11:19,370 identified the structure of T and also synthesized it in Novo. 179 00:11:19,940 --> 00:11:24,650 Uh, that was in 1964. Prior to that, in 1963, 180 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,850 um, they had found, uh, cannabidiol. 181 00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:33,010 So cannabidiol was actually first. Um, but uh, 182 00:11:33,010 --> 00:11:37,370 shortly thereafter, we can go through a whole list of other discoveries, 183 00:11:37,940 --> 00:11:41,770 uh, that came, uh, from those initial investigations. 184 00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:47,690 Um, before we move forward, I have a, a side question on, uh, him getting his, 185 00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:51,970 uh, research supply of hash from the police. Um, you know, I, 186 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,080 I have seen how traditional hash is made in Lebanon, and, 187 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,440 and you described them, you know, chucking it over the fence. Um, 188 00:11:59,510 --> 00:12:01,400 I imagine that, you know, 189 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,240 the hash that was being gotten from the police was, you know, 190 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,440 was dirty and maybe had other, you know, 191 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,120 items and hairs and straw from wherever it was made or whatever. 192 00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:18,040 Did did that really matter with this kind of molecular research because you're, 193 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,280 you're gonna do an isolation and just pull out the parts anyway? Or, or, well, 194 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,080 was that, was it harder to work with that kind of, uh, product? Oh. 195 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:27,920 Yeah, no, you're right. It absolutely had to be, 196 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,640 there'd be all these impurities in one way or another. Um, you'd have to, 197 00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:33,160 uh, 198 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,880 get through the crudity of the initial material to get 199 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,680 down to the isol isolates of the compounds of interest. 200 00:12:42,130 --> 00:12:45,160 So I have no doubt it was more technically difficult. 201 00:12:45,630 --> 00:12:49,000 Yeah, I can believe that. So, so in 1963, Dr. 202 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,960 Ulum started researching tetrahydrocannabinol, A K T H C specifically, 203 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,200 would you explain how he suspected it was present and the process 204 00:12:59,250 --> 00:13:01,480 by which he discovered and isolated it? 205 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:06,680 Um, yeah, basically they used separation columns, but, you know, 206 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,640 in terms of, it was well, well known that, uh, 207 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,480 hashish and cannabis were psychoactive, 208 00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:18,200 and it was a matter of identifying which compound or 209 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,720 compounds were responsible. And that includes, um, 210 00:13:23,450 --> 00:13:28,360 uh, a series of steps of fractionation and then, uh, 211 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,840 fractionation again to get down to the, uh, 212 00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:36,240 pure compound hopefully that, uh, 213 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,240 really is responsible for the activity. Um, you know, at that time, 214 00:13:41,490 --> 00:13:44,440 uh, testing would have to be done in animals, 215 00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:49,440 and they used monkeys for better or worse, for a lot of the initial work. 216 00:13:49,970 --> 00:13:53,240 Um, but, uh, you know, they, they found so many things. 217 00:13:53,370 --> 00:13:57,640 It wasn't just thc. Uh, also in 1964, 218 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,360 they isolated cannabigerol. Um, they published on that, 219 00:14:02,610 --> 00:14:06,960 uh, with his, his partner, ya G. Um, 220 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,760 and, um, even at the time, I, you know, 221 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,760 in reading Professor UL's old work, 222 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,080 I'm just struck with the presence that he had, uh, 223 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,560 his predictions about things, uh, 224 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,920 very quickly they identified the cannabigerol had to be the parent 225 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,400 compound, um, to THC and C B D. Um, 226 00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:34,200 but that same year they identified the, uh, acid cannabinoids, 227 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,880 which ultimately were identified later as the, 228 00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:41,400 the actual parent compounds, um, 229 00:14:41,530 --> 00:14:46,320 in the fresh plant before Decarboxylation. And then in, uh, 230 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,480 66, they found Cannavaro. 231 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:53,600 And then there were a whole bunch of miners like Canna Cylo, uh, 232 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:55,160 but they didn't stop there. 233 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,160 And this is one of the things I would always appreciated about RAI was he 234 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,120 was a chemist. Most chemists are happy to stay in their lane. 235 00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:06,880 That was never enough for him. Mm-hmm. , 236 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,600 he always wanted to knew more what was the biological function? 237 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,880 How can we figure out what this does? So by 1970, 238 00:15:15,550 --> 00:15:17,320 they had tested, uh, 239 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,920 all of these compounds and basically found that, um, 240 00:15:22,730 --> 00:15:25,720 uh, t h C was mostly responsible, 241 00:15:25,820 --> 00:15:30,320 and they made an important distinction. Even today, uh, 242 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,080 you know, some 60 years later, almost, um, 243 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:38,960 people make the mistake of saying that C B D or C B G are not 244 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,720 psychoactive. This is absolutely wrong. Both of them are, 245 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:47,480 what they should say is they're not intoxicating. But back in 1970, 246 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,680 professor Ullo knew that, 247 00:15:50,020 --> 00:15:54,560 and he said that these other substances were not Picato Memetic, 248 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,520 which was a fancy way of saying that they didn't make you crazy when you 249 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,080 took them. Um, and that was true throughout his career. 250 00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:05,920 Um, again, 251 00:16:06,050 --> 00:16:10,760 he did not confine himself to the lab and was heavily involved 252 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,840 in clinical pursuits, uh, with his discoveries. 253 00:16:16,250 --> 00:16:19,320 Um, you said that he discovered, um, 254 00:16:19,540 --> 00:16:23,800 cannabidiol before thc, when he started looking at cannabidiol, 255 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:27,480 was his first thought that that might be, uh, 256 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,680 the substance that was ta causing in intoxication, and it wasn't? 257 00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:33,440 Yeah, I, I don't think so. 258 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,000 There had been some prior work actually done in the United States by a 259 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,200 German refugee named Lowe. Um, 260 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:45,360 and cannabidiol had been, um, 261 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,440 identified almost perfectly in 1940. Um, 262 00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:52,600 but, uh, 263 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,480 they didn't kneel down the actual three-dimensional structure until Professor 264 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,960 Ulum in 1963. Um, so, you know, 265 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,920 they're in science, they're often these incremental developments, 266 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,280 and we'd have to say that that was one of them. 267 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:14,600 So from the timeline that you set up of, of the different labs, uh, 268 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,920 discovering the different cannabinoids and, 269 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,600 and figuring out their structure and isolating them, it sounds like, um, 270 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,920 you know, this time between, you know, 1960 and the early seventies, 271 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,280 it was like bang, bang, bang, one cannabinoid after another . And, 272 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:30,520 you know, 273 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,360 that must have been not only like an exciting time to be doing this initial 274 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,080 research to finally kind of like crack the, you know, cannabis secret. Um, 275 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,480 but also, you know, THC was something that, 276 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,840 that people could immediately tell there was going to be medicinal use for. 277 00:17:48,110 --> 00:17:52,160 What was the, the significance, like both in science, 278 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,480 but also perhaps in society wri large? Um, 279 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,040 what was the significance of the discovery of THC and impact at that time? 280 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:05,040 Well, uh, I'd like to take this on a couple of levels. Mm-hmm. , 281 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,280 I mean, the, it's first notoriety came as an intoxicant. 282 00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:12,680 Um, certainly, um, again, 283 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,080 being an extremely educated and well-read person, 284 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,240 professor Ulum was very familiar with medicinal uses of 285 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,720 cannabis throughout the ages. 286 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,160 And I'm sure that the wheels were turning with him, uh, very, 287 00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:30,960 uh, very quickly. But, um, 288 00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:35,240 people have to understand how earth shattering, um, 289 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,520 these discoveries were. For example, most, 290 00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:41,110 uh, 291 00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:45,680 most psychoactive drugs prior to this time were alkaloids. 292 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:48,240 So there were water soluble substances. 293 00:18:49,020 --> 00:18:53,600 The cannabinoids were absolutely a different kettle of fish, um, 294 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,520 because they were lipid soluble and not alkaloids. Um, you know, 295 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,120 they had no nitrogen in them. Um, 296 00:19:01,250 --> 00:19:04,400 so this really was a bit strange, 297 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,160 and it made the material very hard to handle. Um, you know, 298 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,280 we usually dissolve things in water and, um, you know, 299 00:19:13,290 --> 00:19:17,760 instead you have these lipid soluble sticky substances that are 300 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:20,680 sticking onto the glassware and everything else. 301 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:25,120 It's never been easy to work with this stuff. Um, 302 00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:29,320 yeah. Uh, but, and again, he, 303 00:19:29,650 --> 00:19:33,960 he quickly pivoted into looking at, uh, 304 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,280 clinical indications. 305 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,720 And probably the first one that really came to the fore, 306 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:42,080 um, was, uh, 307 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:47,080 the idea of cannabidiol as an anticonvulsant. Uh, so, 308 00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:49,280 you know, at this time, um, 309 00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:54,120 he was isolating these different components from Hashish 310 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:57,640 and sharing them with other scientists. And, uh, 311 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,520 there was a great collaboration between the Israelis and the Brazilian 312 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,760 scientists, um, uh, doctors Kuya and Carlini. Uh, 313 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,520 in 1980, 314 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,880 they published the first clinical study of cannabidiols and 315 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:16,240 Anticonvulsant, um, in nine patients. And, uh, 316 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,160 very successful. And, you know, I, 317 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,040 I would point out that these were all people that, um, 318 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:26,880 had failed treatment with, uh, available drugs at that time. 319 00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:32,040 Um, now people may be really struck by the fact that was 1980. 320 00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:35,720 We didn't get approval of cannabidiol as an anticonvulsant, 321 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,400 as Epidiolex in this country until 2018. Um, 322 00:20:40,650 --> 00:20:45,520 so there was this huge gap of time, uh, that he was very, 323 00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:49,160 uh, surprised and outraged by, uh, 324 00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:53,040 that this work had gone on, had shown such great promise, 325 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,160 and yet got ignored. Uh, for all that time. 326 00:20:57,190 --> 00:21:01,400 This might be as much of a question about the scientific method as it is about 327 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,560 Dr. Ulum, but, um, what about cannabidiol? 328 00:21:06,490 --> 00:21:10,080 Um, co caused Dr. Meshulum to air quotes, 329 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,480 suspect that cannabidiol was an anti-convulsant. 330 00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:17,600 Was there something in the nature or something that he had seen in people who, 331 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,400 who used hashish or, or was it the, 332 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:25,560 the structure of the molecule itself that he could look at and 333 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,920 envision how that would interact with the human body? 334 00:21:29,650 --> 00:21:32,640 No, I'm really gonna attribute to his open-mindedness. 335 00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:37,040 What I mean by that was he was, uh, 336 00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:41,800 very aware of historical references to 337 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,000 cannabis, uh, as an anticonvulsant coming from the Arab world. Um, 338 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,880 um, and these dated back many centuries. Um, 339 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,240 so there was a suspicion that Hashish, um, 340 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,200 could work as an anti-convulsant, 341 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,600 and then it was a matter of seeing what component or components 342 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,200 might be responsible mm-hmm. . Um, 343 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,080 and why he honed in on cannabidiol probably was because, 344 00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:13,240 um, uh, they were aware at that time that it wouldn't be intoxicating. 345 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:19,400 Uh, and, uh, so it would have an advantage if it worked. Uh, 346 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:24,240 it wouldn't have the liability that can be attached to th h c Yeah. 347 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,840 We, we, we still experience that difference even today. Sure. Um, 348 00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:33,810 so I talk with a lot of research scientists, uh, 349 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:38,730 on shaping fire. And more or less, they fall into three different groups, um, 350 00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:43,250 scientists that study and intoxicating substance. Um, but they, 351 00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:45,210 they never touch it themselves because they are, 352 00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:48,290 they are not the kind of person who enjoys I intoxicants. 353 00:22:48,590 --> 00:22:51,930 And then in the middle, you've, you've got scientists that, you know, 354 00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:54,930 don't use whatever it is regularly, um, 355 00:22:54,990 --> 00:22:59,010 but they have used it to understand what the human experience is. 356 00:22:59,230 --> 00:23:04,130 And then you've got researchers that research drugs and they like using them 357 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:06,250 as well. Um, did Dr. 358 00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:10,130 Meshulum use cannabis or have any personal appreciation for it? 359 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,850 Uh, I'm gonna have to equivocate a bit. Mm-hmm. , um, 360 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:17,490 he would tell a story of, uh, 361 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:22,290 first human experiences in, in trying th c um, 362 00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:27,130 and it went something like this. They had invited friends and colleagues, 363 00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:31,770 uh, to a dinner party, and his wife, Dahlia, who was a, 364 00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:36,730 is a wonderful person, um, had made a cake. 365 00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:38,610 Um, and, uh, 366 00:23:38,610 --> 00:23:43,370 there were portions of 10 milligrams of th h c I think that there were 10 people 367 00:23:43,770 --> 00:23:44,850 involved. Um, 368 00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:49,720 five didn't show any obvious effects. Uh, 369 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,280 five did one in anxiety reaction. The others, um, 370 00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:58,920 felt something or felt different, um, in ways that you might imagine. 371 00:23:59,650 --> 00:24:03,800 Uh, one, um, said nothing had happened, 372 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,640 but was laughing outrageously every few minutes. And another one said, 373 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,320 nothing happened, but never stopped talking. So , 374 00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:14,600 you can draw your own conclusions. 375 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,760 What he did say in relating this story was whether he was one of the 10, 376 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:20,480 but I imagine he was, 377 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:25,320 I can attest to the fact that he was not a regular user of cannabis. 378 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Right on. Thank you for that story. That's great. So, um, 379 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,760 another key cannabinoid that, uh, Dr. 380 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,680 Michel mis credited for and we haven't brought up yet is, 381 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,280 is actually one of my favorites, uh, anandamide. And he discovered it in 1992. 382 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:40,440 Right. Um, 383 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,440 would you tell us about the discovery of anandamide and what it meant for 384 00:24:45,470 --> 00:24:48,560 endo cannabinoid science and kind of patient health generally? 385 00:24:48,910 --> 00:24:52,360 Sure. Yeah. I think we just have to back up a little bit mm-hmm. 386 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,600 to 2018. Um, so at that time, uh, 387 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,440 William Deva in the lab of Alin Howlet at St. Louis University, 388 00:25:01,010 --> 00:25:05,640 um, had discovered, uh, cannabinoid receptor. So, 389 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:10,400 uh, and I'm gonna back up a little more. Prior to that time, uh, 390 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,840 people had no idea how T h C worked. 391 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:17,560 The working theory was that it somehow, 392 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:18,720 um, 393 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,320 disrupted the membranes of the neurons and the way that alcohol 394 00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:27,960 ethanol does. Um, but there, uh, 395 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,200 were synthetic cannabinoids that were being made, and, uh, 396 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,520 these were stereo elective. That's a way of saying that, um, 397 00:25:36,610 --> 00:25:40,920 if the molecule had one configuration in three-dimensional space, 398 00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:45,720 it, it worked, it was intoxicating. However, if it didn't have the right one, 399 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:46,833 it didn't work. 400 00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:51,080 That implied that there must be a receptor where the thing was working. 401 00:25:51,930 --> 00:25:56,040 So the search was on for a cannabinoid receptor. 402 00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:58,680 And again, that was found in 2018, 403 00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:03,160 subsequently known to us now as CB one, the, uh, 404 00:26:03,340 --> 00:26:08,160 the cannabinoid one receptor. Um, so, 405 00:26:08,330 --> 00:26:09,720 uh, after that, 406 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,400 there was an all hands on deck search for endogenous 407 00:26:14,570 --> 00:26:15,240 ligands. 408 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,040 That's a way of saying that people were looking for molecules within 409 00:26:20,050 --> 00:26:25,040 us endogenous cannabinoids now called endocannabinoids that would 410 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:30,440 bind with this receptor. Um, but, uh, again, 411 00:26:30,890 --> 00:26:33,200 it was super difficult. Um, 412 00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:37,800 the thing that set Professor Ulum apart was he thought 413 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:43,320 the endogenous molecules, rather than being peptides, um, you know, 414 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,320 short amino acid, uh, molecules, uh, 415 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,600 rather would have to be a lipid, um, to, uh, 416 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,600 lodge on this receptor. Um, so analogous to th h c. 417 00:26:57,490 --> 00:27:02,280 Um, and then things get really interesting because there they were in Israel, 418 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:07,600 uh, this is in the lab again with William Deva and Lumir Hanush, 419 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:12,130 um, his associates at that time. And, um, 420 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,130 they looked for these endogenous cannabinoids in pig brains. 421 00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:21,290 Now, again, that's anachronistic for sure. Um, 422 00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:26,090 I can tell you that Jerusalem, where the work was done, is a very kosher city. 423 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:30,530 Um, but, um, there was a place in Tel Aviv that, uh, 424 00:27:30,530 --> 00:27:34,810 they could get the pig brains, uh, and they said each time they went back, 425 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:36,770 the price went up. Uh, 426 00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:39,890 but after painstaking work over a couple of years, 427 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,010 they had a tiny fraction of this material that they 428 00:27:45,370 --> 00:27:47,810 identified chemically, um, 429 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:52,490 as Erika Donal Ethan Olamide. Uh, 430 00:27:52,490 --> 00:27:57,450 then they had fund deciding what the common name of the molecule should be. 431 00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:03,130 Uh, as it turned out, William de Vain was a Sanskrit scholar. Um, 432 00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:08,650 and, um, he knew that the Sanskrit word for bliss was ananda. 433 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:13,210 So they called it anandamide, uh, which is a, a great name, 434 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,570 a beautiful coinage. Um, and, uh, they kept looking, 435 00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:21,610 they found other related molecules. And in 1994, 436 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,650 they uh, discovered another called two Erika Donal Glycerol, 437 00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:31,170 uh, less flashy name, just two HG for short. Uh, 438 00:28:31,170 --> 00:28:35,490 that was in 95. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, 439 00:28:35,490 --> 00:28:37,770 then again, didn't stop there. 440 00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:42,610 They found hundreds of related molecules that seemingly didn't do a lot 441 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:47,370 on their own. Um, but in putting these together in different combinations, 442 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:48,650 by 1998, 443 00:28:48,650 --> 00:28:53,170 they figured out that there was synergy when you had the main players, 444 00:28:53,980 --> 00:28:58,330 uh, with these less active or inactive, uh, related molecules. 445 00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:02,330 Uh, hence the concept of the entourage effect. Mm-hmm. 446 00:29:02,370 --> 00:29:04,410 was born in 1998. 447 00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:10,780 So, um, so far we have discussed, um, 448 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:14,660 you know, maybe even a dozen or at least 10 different, uh, 449 00:29:14,660 --> 00:29:16,420 cannabinoids and, you know, 450 00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:21,060 functioning aspects of the endocannabinoid system that Dr. Ulum is credited for. 451 00:29:21,550 --> 00:29:26,340 Um, to round out this group, is there, is there anything of significance, 452 00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:28,580 um, any other cannabinoids or that, 453 00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:32,540 that he discovered that we should make sure we mention at this time that we 454 00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:33,373 haven't so far? 455 00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:38,940 Well, again, just, uh, to make sure we do justice to his work, uh, 456 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,880 his discoveries included C B D T, H C C B G C, 457 00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:48,800 bbc, um, the acid cannabinoid, C B N A, 458 00:29:48,990 --> 00:29:53,360 C B D A, C B G A, uh, Canna. Cyclo, 459 00:29:53,580 --> 00:29:56,560 and likely a few more. Um. 460 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,520 That's a great answer. I couldn't have asked for anything better. Thank you. 461 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,560 . So, so I know kind of like, you know, as we, 462 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:06,160 as we wrap up the first set here, you know, I, 463 00:30:06,190 --> 00:30:10,280 I know the entirety of the first set has been how, you know, 464 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,960 we've been talking about how Dr. Chu's research, you know, um, 465 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,760 changed our understanding, uh, uh, 466 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,440 very specifically of cannabis and the endocannabinoid system 467 00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:26,760 on a, on a level of perspective, kind of like one level of magnitude up, 468 00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:31,960 like what impact did this entire body of 469 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,160 research have on both the scientific, I don't know, 470 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,560 acceptance and interest in cannabis and in the 471 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,360 attraction of more scientists to dive in? 472 00:30:45,570 --> 00:30:49,520 Because Dr. UL's research opened up the area. 473 00:30:50,270 --> 00:30:54,360 Yeah, I, in a word, it affected it profoundly. Um, 474 00:30:54,790 --> 00:30:57,120 what we see a few track, 475 00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:02,360 the number of publications on cannabinoids and the endocannabinoid 476 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,400 system, there was a huge growth, um, 477 00:31:06,090 --> 00:31:11,080 in the early nineties, uh, which has continued for, for some time. 478 00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:16,320 You know, once these molecules, particularly endocannabinoids were identified, 479 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,640 it then was a matter of experimenting them to see where they are and what they 480 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,473 do. 481 00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:26,720 And the fascinating thing in retrospect is every organ 482 00:31:26,750 --> 00:31:31,520 system, every type of, uh, physiological function that was examined, 483 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,840 there was a role for the endocannabinoid system. Mm-hmm. . 484 00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:37,440 So again, we had, uh, 485 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,680 discovery of cannabinoid compounds, 486 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,440 then the endogenous cannabinoids. Uh, they had to figure out, 487 00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:46,000 uh, 488 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,760 how they were made and broken down the metabolic and catabolic enzymes, 489 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:53,440 how they were regulated. Um, 490 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,160 so you can see how there was this expansion, 491 00:31:57,190 --> 00:32:01,640 sort of a pyramid, uh, effect of, uh, 492 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,880 research opportunities and, uh, they were pursued around the world. Now, 493 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:07,920 unfortunately, 494 00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:13,480 that is not extended to enlightenment on the political side. 495 00:32:14,090 --> 00:32:15,720 Um, nor, um, 496 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:20,920 did it totally break down the barriers to research which still remain in this 497 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,560 country. Admittedly, 498 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,040 it's easier to study cannabis now than it was then, 499 00:32:26,420 --> 00:32:28,840 but it still remains very difficult. 500 00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:33,600 Yeah. Um, that is certainly the case. Uh, I, 501 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,520 I can imagine after Dr. Mali's, um, you know, 502 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,080 earliest discoveries, he never, um, 503 00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:45,720 he never wanted for funding though, uh, during his career. Like, cuz he, 504 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,280 it sounds like he would an earliest celebrity, and, 505 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,320 and I just assumed that well, he was well funded at that point. Is that, 506 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,153 is that accurate? 507 00:32:52,410 --> 00:32:55,800 Uh, up to a point, but it only after a certain point, 508 00:32:56,260 --> 00:33:01,200 his first, uh, application of the National Institutes of Health, 509 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,000 which then has now has been the main funder of biomedical research domestically 510 00:33:06,060 --> 00:33:07,520 and internationally. 511 00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:13,160 But his first application was turned down with the explanation that nobody uses 512 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,040 cannabis here. Yeah. You know, this is circa 1963. Um, 513 00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:21,000 then the tune changed, um, 514 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,760 partly was because of this discovery, uh, 515 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,000 but additionally there seemed to be a political, uh, rationale, 516 00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:30,960 um, uh, uh, 517 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,240 something to the effect that a senator's son was busted for, 518 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,400 quote, marijuana unquote, um, 519 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,320 and wanted to know if it was gonna make him per permanently crazy. Oh man. 520 00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:44,600 Um, all of a sudden, 521 00:33:44,750 --> 00:33:49,320 n i h was more interested in cannabis and cannabinoids. 522 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,280 And for the subsequent 40 years, uh, professor Ulum, uh, 523 00:33:54,340 --> 00:33:56,760 had n NIH funding annually. 524 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,360 , that's a good story. All right. So, 525 00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:01,640 so we're gonna take a short break and be right back. 526 00:34:01,660 --> 00:34:05,680 You are listening to Shaping Fire, and my guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo. 527 00:34:05,690 --> 00:34:08,520 Without these advertisers shaping fire would not happen, 528 00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:11,840 so please support them and let them know you heard them on shaping Fire. 529 00:34:15,050 --> 00:34:19,070 The cannabis seed market is filled with big name and hype breeders fighting to 530 00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:19,950 get your attention, 531 00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:23,750 and occasionally you discover a breeder who is breeding because it is the only 532 00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:24,790 thing they care to do, 533 00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:27,430 and they would be doing it even if they never made a dime. 534 00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:32,310 That's my friend Craig Harza, who makes seeds as magnetic genetics. 535 00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:36,670 Craig comes from five generations of farmers and is earning his master's degree 536 00:34:36,670 --> 00:34:37,710 in horticulture right now. 537 00:34:37,980 --> 00:34:41,790 He's been growing cannabis for 15 years and been breeding for nine. 538 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,550 He hasn't sold many seeds because he really isn't a sales guy, 539 00:34:45,570 --> 00:34:47,870 but I've personally been growing his seeds for years, 540 00:34:47,930 --> 00:34:51,510 and I know I can always rely on his seeds to germinate, thrive, 541 00:34:51,570 --> 00:34:53,030 and smell and taste great. 542 00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:57,790 I suggested to Craig that he should probably sell some seeds and asked if he had 543 00:34:57,790 --> 00:35:00,710 enough stockpile to bother. Much to my shock, 544 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,470 he was sitting on five full menus in cold storage that he produced in the last 545 00:35:05,470 --> 00:35:07,990 two years and hadn't even tried to sell any of 'em. 546 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,990 He was simply too busy breeding. Well, we, his friends, 547 00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:15,870 convinced him to make his damn seeds available to the people, and now they are. 548 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:17,830 For the first time anywhere, 549 00:35:17,830 --> 00:35:21,990 you can now buy magnetic genetic seeds at Neptune Seed Bank and on 550 00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:23,150 extremely.io. 551 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,590 Neptune Seed Bank has just picked up magnetic genetics for a trial to gauge your 552 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:29,380 interest, 553 00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:34,350 they are carrying three strains from his mean mug prominence and terino 554 00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:39,200 menus, which are exclusive to Neptune. It's an easy way to score his seeds. 555 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:44,640 You can pick up those menus plus his hillbilly, skunk, and candy breath crosses, 556 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,880 and more on his profile page on strangely.io. 557 00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:53,280 If you want very affordable seeds that are exceptional quality with rare terpene 558 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,560 profiles from a good guy, 559 00:35:54,930 --> 00:35:59,400 go to neptune seed bank.com or strangely.io. 560 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,520 Sometimes it is fun to buy the hype thing from the brand you admire, 561 00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:07,160 but when you're ready to buy the strain you'll love from an obscure mad 562 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,000 scientist, you're ready for magnetic genetics, 563 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,960 magnetic genetics.org and on Instagram magnetic Genetics. 564 00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:22,240 One of the reasons why no-till cannabis growing is so valued by farmers is 565 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:26,400 because the mycelium networks in the soil remain established from year to year. 566 00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:30,800 And we know these fungal networks are essential because they're the nutrient 567 00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:35,160 superhighways that extend far and wide in the substrate to feed your plants. 568 00:36:35,580 --> 00:36:40,200 The trouble with growing in new living soils or blended cocoa substrates 569 00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:44,640 is that it takes most of the plant's life just to create these mycelium 570 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,320 highways, dmic, endo, 571 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,040 microrisal fungi inoculate reduces that time and gets your plant eating a wider 572 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,600 array of nutrients faster. 573 00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:58,680 And it's three times the concentration of the other popular brand in the US at 574 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,640 900 propag program of two fungal species selected specifically for 575 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:04,840 cannabis cultivation. 576 00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:09,200 Dyna Omic is the result of 30 years of research and trials at the vCAN 577 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,560 Agriculture Research Institute in Israel. 578 00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:16,080 It has also been vigorously trialed by cannabis and food growers across the us. 579 00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:21,400 Dyna Omic O is now available at Grow Shops and on Amazon in the United States. 580 00:37:21,830 --> 00:37:25,920 I love using Dynam Mico to both speed up the growth of the mycelium networks in 581 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,200 the soil, but also as a bio stimulant to make clone cuttings more veil. 582 00:37:30,420 --> 00:37:34,480 You can see side-by-side showing the comparative growth on their Instagram at 583 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,313 Dynam myco. 584 00:37:35,810 --> 00:37:40,040 If you demand reliable growing results and appreciate the importance of an 585 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,080 active root zone in creating a thriving plant, 586 00:37:42,350 --> 00:37:47,200 I encourage you to check out dmic.com and use the store locator to find 587 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,600 out where you can get yours. 588 00:37:48,910 --> 00:37:53,640 That's d y N O m Y c o.com 589 00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:58,800 shaping. Fire listeners can get 10% off any size of dmic o on, 590 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,680 on Amazon or dmic.com by using the discount code shaping 591 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,680 fire, one word no caps. Whether you are starting with new beds or pots, 592 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,960 or if you want to add some zing to tired soil, 593 00:38:10,990 --> 00:38:15,200 choose Dynami to maximize your plant's potential. Dmic, 594 00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:17,160 endo Microrisal inoculate. 595 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,120 There are so many seed banks nowadays that you really have options in who to 596 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,320 choose. Not only that, if you pick the wrong seed bank, 597 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,440 you could be in for a really sketchy ride. 598 00:38:29,780 --> 00:38:34,720 And that's only one of the reasons I recommend Gas Lamp Seeds to my friends and 599 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:36,720 listeners who are looking for a seed bank. 600 00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:41,680 You probably already know gas lamp seeds as hem Genetics Hem 601 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,280 recently changed their name to gas lamp seeds. 602 00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:49,960 Gas lamp seeds is not just another Seed Bank Gas Lamp is a female operated 603 00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:54,560 boutique cannabis genetics provider that only sells thoughtfully curated seeds 604 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,640 from the top names in cannabis breeding. 605 00:38:56,910 --> 00:39:00,600 With over 60 breeders and over a thousand strains to choose from, 606 00:39:00,620 --> 00:39:02,680 you will certainly find something you'll love. 607 00:39:03,220 --> 00:39:05,720 Gas Lamp Seeds has something for everyone. 608 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:10,520 With over 650 feminized strains, 300 regular varieties, 609 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,360 and over 200 AutoFlow to choose from. 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You are listening to Shaping Fire. 630 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,680 I am your host, Shang Golos, and my guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo. 631 00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:38,640 So during the first set, we talked, you know, uh, mostly about the, 632 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,480 the timeline of Dr. 633 00:40:40,610 --> 00:40:45,240 Ms Shula's discoveries and clearly how it impacted not only 634 00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:49,440 the, the research of cannabis itself as a drug, but in a, 635 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,800 in a larger form, the endocannabinoid system, 636 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,760 and then the impacts that it had on medical research for humans as a whole. 637 00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:01,200 Where I wanna start out here in second set is that, you know, how has Dr. 638 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,600 Ms Shula's research impacted the development of, 639 00:41:04,770 --> 00:41:07,960 of cannabis based medicines, um, 640 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,800 and what potential therapeutic applications have derived from his work 641 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480 so far? Um, you know, contemporarily? 642 00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:21,630 Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the first obvious ones are, uh, 643 00:41:21,850 --> 00:41:25,070 you know, the classic cannabinoids, 644 00:41:25,070 --> 00:41:29,110 phyto cannabinoids from the plant. So at this time, 645 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,880 uh, in terms of cannabis-based medicines, uh, 646 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,560 we have synthetic THC as Marinol, which has never had big impact. But, 647 00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:39,483 um, 648 00:41:39,770 --> 00:41:44,120 CX is an extract of two different 649 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,680 chemovars of cannabis, 650 00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:50,200 one rich in thc and one rich in C B D. Um, 651 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,600 and that's approved in 30 countries around the world for treatment of 652 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,360 spasticity in multiple sclerosis, but not in the us. 653 00:41:58,850 --> 00:42:03,440 In the us Um, for the last few years, we have had, 654 00:42:03,690 --> 00:42:04,190 uh, 655 00:42:04,190 --> 00:42:08,880 98% pure cannabidiol as epidiolex for 656 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,280 treatment of severe epilepsy syndromes. But again, 657 00:42:13,930 --> 00:42:16,560 um, we're looking at, uh, 658 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,440 future developments related to Cannabigerol, 659 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,800 Cannavaro and many others. And, uh, 660 00:42:24,190 --> 00:42:28,680 I need to extend the conversation to talk about the, uh, 661 00:42:28,820 --> 00:42:33,440 semisynthetic analogs that, uh, professor Michelle Maiden. 662 00:42:34,050 --> 00:42:37,240 Um, perhaps we could run through those. Yeah, please do. I, 663 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:41,480 cause I'm not sure what those are. Okay. Well, uh, 664 00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:46,320 you know, chemists like to take a molecule and see how it might be, 665 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,560 quote, improved meaning different, 666 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,520 meaning patentable or longer lasting or more potent. 667 00:42:54,930 --> 00:42:58,600 So good example, there would be what's called U two 10. 668 00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:01,640 So the HU medicines were, uh, 669 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,280 all discovered by Professor Ulum at Hebrew University. 670 00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:09,920 So that's where the hu uh, derives. So U two 10, 671 00:43:10,730 --> 00:43:12,000 um, was, um, 672 00:43:13,070 --> 00:43:16,520 a dimethyl hep derivative of thc. 673 00:43:16,930 --> 00:43:19,400 So instead of just a five carbon side chain, 674 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,600 it was a seven carbon side chain with two methyl groups on it. 675 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,600 And that made it more potent and longer lasting. So each U two 10, 676 00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:30,800 um, is something I believe, 677 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,160 on the order of 50 to a hundred times more potent in thc. 678 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,920 And it's been a very important agent in laboratory studies of the 679 00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:43,600 endocannabinoid system, but not a drug for clinical use. 680 00:43:44,210 --> 00:43:48,240 Um, it has appeared occasionally and synthetic cannabinoids, 681 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:52,760 but it's not something I would ever recommend anybody taking. Uh, 682 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,680 I have a colleague who did and spent the whole weekend, um, uh, 683 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,000 with a very bad experience. , um, let's leave it at that. 684 00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:04,720 Uh, I'll never tell . Um, 685 00:44:05,230 --> 00:44:09,240 a closely related molecule was U two 11. 686 00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:14,240 Now this one actually got into the clinics, um, but wasn't approved. 687 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,400 And it's a bit of a sad story. 688 00:44:16,910 --> 00:44:20,840 This had the name Dexon Naval. Um, 689 00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:26,240 this was investigated by a now defunct company called 690 00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:28,800 FAR an Israeli company. 691 00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:33,040 They developed this for treatment of severe head injuries. 692 00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:37,720 The idea being that they would give this intravenously after someone had a 693 00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:42,160 severe head injury, and hopefully it would help prevent damage, uh, 694 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,120 from the, the head trauma. Um, however, 695 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,200 after this was licensed to the company, um, 696 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,280 they never consulted Professor Ollom again. Um, 697 00:44:54,910 --> 00:44:59,520 I think that they made a big mistake in that because the, again, 698 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,240 only used this once, um, after the onset of the head injury and, 699 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:08,320 and not subsequently it worked in phase two clinical trials. 700 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,840 But in phase three, nothing, uh, just didn't work. 701 00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:18,240 Um, I wonder in retrospect whether they had given, uh, 702 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:22,240 administered it multiple times. The result could have been different, 703 00:45:23,060 --> 00:45:26,160 but that's probably a done deal at this point. Mm-hmm. 704 00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:30,640 And then there are a variety of agents he developed that yet could make it to 705 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,360 the clinics. Um, 706 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,520 professor Ulum was very active in research on 707 00:45:37,450 --> 00:45:38,100 CB two, 708 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:42,640 the non psychoactive receptor that's important in pain and inflammation. 709 00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:45,600 Um, he thought that, uh, 710 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:50,040 one of the things the endocannabinoid system did was 711 00:45:50,810 --> 00:45:52,560 provide, uh, 712 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,600 protection from non-infectious insults or, 713 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,640 or non immunologic insults. Um, 714 00:45:59,730 --> 00:46:02,720 it developed a medicine called a U 3 0 8, 715 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:07,440 which is very active at the CB two receptor, but not active. 716 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,720 It's CB one. Uh, so wouldn't be intoxicating. 717 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:15,080 And that's been investigated, uh, for arthritic conditions. 718 00:46:16,050 --> 00:46:20,640 Um, and then more recently in 2018, um, 719 00:46:20,850 --> 00:46:25,640 he came out with, uh, HU five 80. Um, 720 00:46:25,930 --> 00:46:30,280 so what this is, is they took the cannabidiol acid molecule, 721 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,760 which is unstable C B D A, and, uh, 722 00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:38,080 they made it a methyl Esther. Um, 723 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,800 what that means is they put this group on it that made it shelf 724 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,760 stable and, uh, it could be a pro-drug. In other words, 725 00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:48,640 when taken into the body, 726 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,480 it would break down spontaneously into C B D A, uh, 727 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,760 which in testing has shown, um, 728 00:46:57,310 --> 00:47:01,720 very powerful activity on the serotonin one, 729 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:04,520 A receptor where C B D also works, 730 00:47:04,580 --> 00:47:09,040 but it's somewhere between a hundred and a thousand times more potent. 731 00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:14,400 So this may have the application in treating nausea of 732 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,760 different causes, um, among other things, uh, also might have a, 733 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,760 a role in treating anxiety. Um, but, uh, 734 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,600 that really hasn't gotten to the clinic yet. There's still, um, could be, 735 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,040 could be developments there. Mm-hmm. 736 00:47:30,530 --> 00:47:35,240 So I have a, um, a two part question. It is a, uh, 737 00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:39,080 it's a request for a vocabulary cl clarification, uh, 738 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,920 but then also I would like you to explain its use in the lab. And, 739 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,240 and here's here is what it is. Um, 740 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:50,080 you began the answer talking about the cannabis analogs that Dr. 741 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,680 Ulum had created. And so when you said that, I'm like, all right, uh, 742 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,480 that sounds like synthetic cannabinoids, uh, to me. And we've discussed, uh, 743 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:00,640 both you and I and then, 744 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,920 and then on other episodes about how synthetic cannabinoids can be useful in the 745 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,400 lab, but, um, it, 746 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,920 it's not as great when they get out of the lab and people try to take them as if 747 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,280 they're from nature and they're not. But, so you started by describing these, 748 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,560 these analogs that Dr. Ulum was making, 749 00:48:16,820 --> 00:48:20,440 and then you described these agents that Dr. Ulum was making, 750 00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:22,920 and then you seem to contrast and say, 751 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,520 and also synthetic cannabinoids where if he made them, 752 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,440 it sounds like they're all synthetic cannabinoids. So, 753 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,160 so the first part of the answer, I'd like you to tease those apart, 754 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:32,993 but then second, 755 00:48:33,260 --> 00:48:37,760 for people who have never thought about the use of synthetic cannabinoids 756 00:48:38,050 --> 00:48:41,000 in, in research in the lab only, 757 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,600 but not actually used out in the real world, would you explain what that, 758 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,240 that lab tool is for. 759 00:48:46,550 --> 00:48:51,400 Sure. Uh, so again, of the ones I mentioned, 760 00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:56,400 h U two 10 was the only one that was a CB one agonist. 761 00:48:56,650 --> 00:48:59,800 Um, so, you know, would cause intoxication. 762 00:49:00,490 --> 00:49:05,400 So h U two 10 and related drugs in the lab would be used to look 763 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,080 at binding. Um, 764 00:49:07,170 --> 00:49:10,640 so say you had an unknown substance, 765 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,480 you wanted to compare its activity to something, 766 00:49:13,890 --> 00:49:18,600 it could be compared to U two 10. Uh, as, as one example, 767 00:49:19,090 --> 00:49:23,720 uh, whether your new substance could displace U two 10 768 00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:28,680 from the receptor, uh, compete with it. Uh, so it'd be, uh, 769 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,560 measure of potency. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, you know, you're correct. 770 00:49:33,790 --> 00:49:38,560 I have decried the use of high potency CB one 771 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,160 agonists as, um, potentially quite dangerous. Uh, 772 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,920 but these other agents, h u 2 11 3 0 8 580, uh, 773 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,560 were all for entirely different purposes and really would have no activity on 774 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:53,720 the CB one receptor. 775 00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:57,040 I see. So, so it, 776 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:02,000 it sounds like analog agent and synthetic synthetic cannabinoids are probably 777 00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:03,320 in the same bucket, 778 00:50:03,540 --> 00:50:08,400 but we delineate between them because some of them are for used 779 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,240 solely in the lab and, and, and should not be used outside by, by, 780 00:50:13,260 --> 00:50:16,240 for people for either medicinal or recreational reasons. 781 00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:19,360 But then the other ones are also synthetic, 782 00:50:19,580 --> 00:50:23,880 but they're also promising as, as actual healthy medicines. 783 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,400 And so we, we just refer to them differently then. 784 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,720 Quite Right. Okay. Great. Quite right. 785 00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:33,360 Cool. Thank you. Um, so, uh, while , 786 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,480 while Dr. Ms. Shula's role was clearly set in pharmaceuticals, right, 787 00:50:37,620 --> 00:50:41,720 you and I have spoken on this program often about our, 788 00:50:41,780 --> 00:50:46,200 our both of ours belief in whole plant medicine, whole plant cannabis resin, 789 00:50:46,550 --> 00:50:47,840 what were Dr. Ms. 790 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,640 Shula's personal thoughts about whole plant medicine and using the 791 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,480 whole resin instead of isolating compounds and then mixing, 792 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,160 matching them to make something patentable since he worked in the pharmaceutical 793 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,760 realm, but also his heart was in pure medicine. 794 00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:09,920 Uh, and, you know, he straddled both worlds. Um, 795 00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:14,520 part of, uh, 796 00:51:15,260 --> 00:51:19,320 the time that we worked most closely together was between, um, 797 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:23,440 2003 and 2014. We were both, uh, 798 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,800 working actively, uh, with GW Pharmaceuticals. 799 00:51:28,410 --> 00:51:33,400 Um, they would have an annual research meeting, uh, which, uh, 800 00:51:34,170 --> 00:51:39,080 he attended. I attended, uh, as an, uh, scientific, uh, 801 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,360 senior medical advisor at that time to the company. Um, 802 00:51:43,890 --> 00:51:48,520 so we worked with people at the company and also 803 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,360 with other cannabinoid scientists, mainly European, um, 804 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,320 and get together and talk about projects and plans. And, 805 00:51:58,090 --> 00:52:01,880 um, a lot of what we know now about cannabidiol, 806 00:52:02,180 --> 00:52:05,240 cannabigerol and the others came from that research. 807 00:52:05,850 --> 00:52:10,440 So he absolutely understood and aided, uh, 808 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,360 the development of these whole plant medicines, 809 00:52:13,820 --> 00:52:17,120 uhs effects and Epidiolex. Um, 810 00:52:17,490 --> 00:52:21,920 at the same time he was working on the Semisynthetic analogs. 811 00:52:22,690 --> 00:52:26,920 Um, I would highlight a point of difference, perhaps, uh, 812 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,080 he and I mm-hmm. , Um, I'm not so sure. 813 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,880 He was absolutely convinced, um, 814 00:52:34,090 --> 00:52:38,600 of the role of the terpenoids, uh, in cannabis. Uh, 815 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,200 you may recall I pointed out in 1998, he had coined, uh, 816 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,720 the term with Professor Ben Shabbat, uh, 817 00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:50,400 of the entourage fact initially applied to endogenous 818 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,880 cannabinoids. The next year. The same payer, uh, 819 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:59,040 published another article and pointed out that the same thing could apply to 820 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,840 cannabis, uh, the idea that, um, 821 00:53:02,110 --> 00:53:06,840 plants might be better medicines than their single components. Well, I, 822 00:53:07,110 --> 00:53:11,600 I already felt that way, and I really seized upon this. 823 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,440 And although some people have misattributed coining the term, 824 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,160 the entourage effect to me, I didn't, 825 00:53:18,190 --> 00:53:21,360 I may have popularized it, um, 826 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,000 through my efforts to show the synergy between terpenoids and 827 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,360 cannabinoids, I think, um, he needed a little more convincing. 828 00:53:30,770 --> 00:53:33,160 Uh, at the time, in 1999, 829 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,880 they pointed out that this idea that plants could be better medicine than, 830 00:53:37,930 --> 00:53:42,320 uh, single compounds, uh, was a theory. Um, 831 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,560 but in the ensuing 24 years, um, 832 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:50,200 we've had a lot of proof for that theory . So, um, 833 00:53:50,220 --> 00:53:52,560 you know, a good scientist, um, 834 00:53:53,250 --> 00:53:57,040 is thinking about possibilities and also retaining, uh, 835 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,880 an ear of skepticism. I think that's necessary. 836 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,800 Sometimes you have to play devil's advocate with your colleagues or with 837 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:04,873 yourself. 838 00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:06,520 Well, yeah, because the, 839 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,520 the whole point is that we're hypothesizing and we don't want to go into it 840 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,160 assuming we're right. So we have to, we have to be our own devil's advocate. 841 00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:14,360 Sure. Yeah. 842 00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:18,920 So much has changed in cannabis research in the last decade of Dr. 843 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:20,920 UL's life. Like, what was Dr. 844 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,920 UL's opinion on the current state of cannabis research and the 845 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,880 potential for new discoveries in the field? Well. 846 00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:32,680 I, he never stopped working. Um, you know, 847 00:54:33,370 --> 00:54:37,920 he continued, uh, throughout his career to find new things to do. 848 00:54:38,330 --> 00:54:41,760 Uh, we've mentioned many of his accomplishments, but, uh, 849 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,520 in more recent decades, um, he worked, uh, 850 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,720 with the late EAI bob on, uh, 851 00:54:49,180 --> 00:54:54,000 endocannabinoids and their role in treating osteoporosis. Um, 852 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,120 he did, uh, 853 00:54:55,630 --> 00:55:00,120 some clinical work on cannabidiol for graft versus host disease, 854 00:55:00,730 --> 00:55:05,280 um, that affects transplant patients. Um, and it, it, 855 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:10,040 it really never ended, uh, again, the more recent work, uh, on, 856 00:55:10,170 --> 00:55:10,670 um, 857 00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:15,440 making the methyl of the acid cannabinoids to make them more stable. 858 00:55:16,210 --> 00:55:20,000 Um, and, uh, also the important work on, uh, 859 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,920 the CB two receptor done with Paul Paer, uh, 860 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,240 who's at the National Institutes of Health, and the idea that, uh, 861 00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:33,000 the endocannabinoid system provided protection from non-infectious 862 00:55:33,010 --> 00:55:37,480 insults. Um, so it, it never ended. Um. 863 00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:43,040 So the, the, the wording of this question is, is kind of, um, I guess juvenile, 864 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,320 but, um, I, I think the point of it is good, uh, you know, as, 865 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,720 as cannabinoid research expanded here in the last, you know, 866 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:54,400 15 years or so, did, did Dr. Ulum, 867 00:55:55,860 --> 00:56:00,720 was he at all annoyed that there were people who were not approaching 868 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,040 cannabis medicine properly in some way because there were so many people do it? 869 00:56:05,170 --> 00:56:07,920 Or was he generally thinking that this was badass, 870 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,520 that there were all these different types of scientists looking into it? 871 00:56:11,490 --> 00:56:16,070 Uh, you know, he was not prone to criticize, 872 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,790 uh, that often. However, he was quite, uh, 873 00:56:20,790 --> 00:56:25,240 willing to decry the dearth of clinical work, um, 874 00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:29,680 that had gone on in, in any number of areas. 875 00:56:30,290 --> 00:56:33,840 Uh, you know, this is certainly manifest by the fact that, again, 876 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,080 here's a bench scientist, um, with, uh, uh, 877 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,040 lifetime record of accomplishment. 878 00:56:40,100 --> 00:56:44,800 And when the International Association for Cannabinoid Medicines, 879 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,760 a clinical group was begun in 2001, he was right there at every meeting, 880 00:56:50,490 --> 00:56:54,240 um, and, um, contributing, um, 881 00:56:54,260 --> 00:56:59,160 and encouraging people to do more work. Uh, so that was another place that, 882 00:56:59,290 --> 00:57:02,880 uh, we, we got together, uh, all told, 883 00:57:02,990 --> 00:57:07,600 I tallied it up, um, after word of his demise. 884 00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:08,800 And, um, 885 00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:13,960 he and I were together at meetings or working together in at least 886 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,200 14 different countries, . So. 887 00:57:18,150 --> 00:57:21,640 That actually must have been a pretty heartfelt list that you worked on after 888 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:22,800 his passing last week. 889 00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:24,080 You bet. Yeah. 890 00:57:24,690 --> 00:57:28,240 Um, to wrap up this set, I, I was curious, you know, we, 891 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,840 you told that great story about, about, you know, the cake. Uh, but how did Dr. 892 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,800 Ulum view the use of cannabis for recreational purposes, like in society? 893 00:57:38,450 --> 00:57:43,440 Um, and, and has his research affected his stance over the years? 894 00:57:44,850 --> 00:57:48,920 Um, yeah, A little bit of a tough one. It's not something he talked about a lot. 895 00:57:48,940 --> 00:57:49,480 You know, 896 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,280 my impression would be that he thought that a lot of it was a 897 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,000 distraction. Um, 898 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,240 and he was laser focused on clinical applications, um, 899 00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:04,200 for this system. Um, so he, 900 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,360 he wasn't a prohibitionist, um, 901 00:58:07,770 --> 00:58:11,920 overtly in any kind of sense. Um, but I think, 902 00:58:12,660 --> 00:58:13,380 you know, 903 00:58:13,380 --> 00:58:17,800 far more interesting to him was how can we harness these substances, 904 00:58:18,370 --> 00:58:20,520 uh, to treat disease. Mm-hmm. 905 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,200 . Yeah. I can see him being all, listen, 906 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,120 I'm trying to get the labs going. 907 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:30,040 I'm trying to get funding and you guys getting busted for illegal weed 908 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,640 is in the news that it's not helpful. . So not, not that he was. 909 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,200 Necessarily against, he was never, so, yeah. Right. He was, 910 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,040 he was never so overt about it, 911 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:43,040 but I I'm sure he may have harbored internal fe feelings of a similar nature. 912 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:43,480 Yeah. 913 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,120 I could follow that. All right. Thank you. 914 00:58:45,250 --> 00:58:47,480 So we're gonna take another short break and be right back. 915 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:51,040 You're listening to Shaping Fire, and my guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo. 916 00:58:53,780 --> 00:58:56,860 There are a lot of good people launching new businesses in cannabis, 917 00:58:56,890 --> 00:59:00,620 psilocybin and other psychedelics, and it's very strange time for us. 918 00:59:00,990 --> 00:59:04,700 In the same moment that psilocybin mushrooms are illegal at the federal level, 919 00:59:04,990 --> 00:59:08,340 they're becoming increasingly legal in states across the country. 920 00:59:08,780 --> 00:59:13,100 These businesses leading the way into the future of plant medicines require 921 00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:17,420 specialized legal representation by attorneys who have depth not only in 922 00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:21,060 litigation, mergers and acquisitions, but also in psychedelic and, 923 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:22,400 and other plant medicines. 924 00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:28,080 Greenlight Law Group has been empowering cannabis businesses since 2014, 925 00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:32,600 and as the market has diversified into psilocybin and other plant medicines, 926 00:59:32,670 --> 00:59:37,440 Greenlight has been right there evolving with their diverse clients to provide 927 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,000 legal expertise with a high level of legal acumen, creative strategy, 928 00:59:42,140 --> 00:59:46,680 and precision that comes with an intimate and specific understanding of both 929 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,760 business law and plant medicine. 930 00:59:49,570 --> 00:59:53,640 If you are a business owner trying to navigate the layered local and national 931 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:54,880 draw laws on your own, 932 00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:59,520 you are at risk of fumbling these confusing and quickly changing laws 933 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:00,960 complicate everything. 934 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,960 Green Light Law Group is ready to help you when hit with a lawsuit, 935 01:00:05,370 --> 01:00:08,480 or because you were shafted by a vendor or business partner, 936 01:00:08,690 --> 01:00:12,480 or simply because you wanna stay legal and could use some preventative guidance 937 01:00:12,510 --> 01:00:15,640 before cultivating a controlled substance as an entrepreneur. 938 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,200 Green Light Law Group is a collection of folks who care profoundly about their 939 01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,840 work. 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Visit copt.com today. 1006 01:04:25,940 --> 01:04:29,970 Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host, Chango Lo, 1007 01:04:29,970 --> 01:04:34,730 and my guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo. So Ethan, how has Dr. 1008 01:04:34,730 --> 01:04:38,810 Ms Schlemm's work impacted the development of new drug therapies beyond 1009 01:04:39,330 --> 01:04:39,490 cannabis? 1010 01:04:39,490 --> 01:04:43,610 I can imagine that there are other areas of medicine that are benefiting from 1011 01:04:43,610 --> 01:04:44,443 his research. 1012 01:04:46,420 --> 01:04:50,170 Uh, again, um, the, 1013 01:04:51,180 --> 01:04:54,210 uh, endocannabinoid system is ubiquitous. 1014 01:04:54,340 --> 01:04:59,130 It is the major home aesthetic regulator of human physiology and that of 1015 01:04:59,130 --> 01:05:03,730 all higher animals. Um, so it's had a huge impact, 1016 01:05:03,730 --> 01:05:04,570 unfortunately, 1017 01:05:04,570 --> 01:05:09,250 that hasn't extended towards education of medical students 1018 01:05:09,660 --> 01:05:14,090 on the system and its importance. Um, so, uh, 1019 01:05:14,210 --> 01:05:15,170 again, you know, 1020 01:05:15,170 --> 01:05:19,960 this idea that there were these lipid molecules rather than 1021 01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,840 water sol soluble molecules. The cannabinoids, uh, 1022 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,040 led to a real expansion. Um, you know, 1023 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,760 the endocannabinoid system isn't really confined, uh, 1024 01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,680 to the two known cannabinoid receptors. 1025 01:05:34,910 --> 01:05:39,520 It's become a much broader concept and includes a number of the trip 1026 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:44,800 receptors and even some of the, uh, serotonin receptors, 1027 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:49,160 particularly serotonin one A, um, which I'm happy to say, 1028 01:05:49,530 --> 01:05:52,280 uh, was an extension of, uh, 1029 01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,560 work that I did with colleagues at the University of Montana back in 1030 01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,840 2005. Um, so it, 1031 01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,240 it's been an ever expanding, 1032 01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:07,200 it's like the tendrils of the plant have extended and all these areas 1033 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:11,560 of science. Um, it's been an amazing thing to see, um, 1034 01:06:11,710 --> 01:06:16,320 o over the 30 years since the discovery of Theo Cannabinoid system. Mm-hmm. 1035 01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:16,440 . 1036 01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:17,560 Mm-hmm. , you know, 1037 01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:22,000 that's one of the reasons why some people are even skeptical or suspicious of 1038 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,040 cannabis because they say, oh, you people talk about it like it's a panacea. 1039 01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,400 It's like, like as if it's gonna solve all these things. And, 1040 01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,720 and that's only comes from people who don't understand the endocannabinoid 1041 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,800 system, because that is the whole point. It's everywhere. 1042 01:06:36,020 --> 01:06:38,680 And so by working with cannabinoids, 1043 01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:42,760 you can work on all these different ailments. And, um, I don't, 1044 01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,640 I don't think that the skepticism for that is going to be overcome until more 1045 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:50,200 people are familiar with how the endocannabinoid system actually functions. 1046 01:06:51,690 --> 01:06:54,130 Quite right. You know, again, it, 1047 01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,650 it's important to say there really aren't a lot of things that cannabis 1048 01:06:58,890 --> 01:07:00,130 cures. However, 1049 01:07:00,130 --> 01:07:04,250 there are tremendous number of things that cannabis treats effectively. 1050 01:07:05,020 --> 01:07:08,570 Uh, at least as an adjunct, uh, if not directly. 1051 01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:12,610 So what was, what did Dr. 1052 01:07:12,850 --> 01:07:17,490 Ulum feel was like the most rewarding aspect of his, uh, career? I mean, 1053 01:07:17,820 --> 01:07:19,770 uh, his, his list of, 1054 01:07:19,820 --> 01:07:24,810 of recognitions and awards are, it's a long list, but, 1055 01:07:24,810 --> 01:07:29,490 but the list of what he achieved is different than the achievements that he 1056 01:07:29,500 --> 01:07:31,330 himself was most proud of. 1057 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,130 Well, you know, that's a hard one for me to say. Um, 1058 01:07:37,260 --> 01:07:40,770 he was not the kind of guy that, uh, 1059 01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,490 rested on his proverbial laurels. Um, 1060 01:07:44,490 --> 01:07:46,410 there was always more work to do, 1061 01:07:46,620 --> 01:07:51,130 so I don't think it's something you'd dwell on. Mm-hmm. . Um, 1062 01:07:51,470 --> 01:07:51,970 you know, 1063 01:07:51,970 --> 01:07:56,730 when we look at this list of accomplishments over the course of six 1064 01:07:56,730 --> 01:07:58,370 decades, it's astounding, 1065 01:07:58,790 --> 01:08:03,210 but the obvious pattern is the guy never quit working, 1066 01:08:03,860 --> 01:08:08,570 uh, or thinking about what's next. Um, so, uh, 1067 01:08:08,860 --> 01:08:13,730 to me he was a role model in that regard. Um, you know, it's, 1068 01:08:13,900 --> 01:08:16,760 uh, to an extent, if I can compare myself, 1069 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,280 it's the same thing when I get a paper accepted for publication. 1070 01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:26,000 I'm happy for a little while, but, um, thinking about what's next, 1071 01:08:26,730 --> 01:08:27,520 um. 1072 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:28,640 Fair, fair, fair enough. 1073 01:08:28,910 --> 01:08:31,040 It's sort of the restless mind syndrome. 1074 01:08:31,270 --> 01:08:34,560 Well, Dr. Meshulum was, uh, involved, um, 1075 01:08:34,570 --> 01:08:39,200 in cannabis policy creation in Israel much more than ever in the United States. 1076 01:08:39,730 --> 01:08:41,520 Um, what advice do you think Dr. 1077 01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,960 Ulum would give to us policy makers and regulators regarding the regulation of 1078 01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,240 cannabis and cannabis BA based medicines? 1079 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:53,250 I think it'd be really concise, and that would be to follow the science. 1080 01:08:54,580 --> 01:08:58,810 Um, again, I have no doubt that he had, uh, 1081 01:08:59,810 --> 01:09:01,690 pervasive, uh, 1082 01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:06,170 skepticism about the ability of politicians to incorporate 1083 01:09:06,510 --> 01:09:10,610 the kind of scientific knowledge, uh, that was going on in this area. 1084 01:09:11,260 --> 01:09:12,930 Um, but I, 1085 01:09:12,930 --> 01:09:17,730 I don't remember him wasting a lot of time with criticism of that. 1086 01:09:18,420 --> 01:09:23,090 Uh, there might be some remark in passing, but again, uh, 1087 01:09:23,090 --> 01:09:27,170 his concentration was always on advancement of the science. Mm-hmm. 1088 01:09:27,210 --> 01:09:30,770 . Mm-hmm. . Um, so, so looking forward, I mean, 1089 01:09:30,770 --> 01:09:34,930 clearly Dr. Meshulum, um, mentored so many, and, 1090 01:09:34,930 --> 01:09:38,970 and he even mentored so many people who never met him. Right. Who, 1091 01:09:38,970 --> 01:09:42,290 who knew him through his research and his interviews. 1092 01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:44,570 What advice do you think that Dr. 1093 01:09:44,850 --> 01:09:49,050 Ulum would give to young researchers interested in studying cannabis and its 1094 01:09:49,250 --> 01:09:50,083 compounds now? 1095 01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:55,330 Well, I think the first thing he'd say was, expect to work hard. Um, 1096 01:09:55,500 --> 01:10:00,490 it is a very deep and, uh, difficult field. 1097 01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,610 I mean, the thing that attracted me when I really got into it circa 1098 01:10:05,410 --> 01:10:09,970 1996, was, uh, boy, this is complex, 1099 01:10:10,030 --> 01:10:14,410 but it's also exciting. Um, and, uh, boy, I, 1100 01:10:14,410 --> 01:10:19,130 I became addicted to cannabinoid knowledge very 1101 01:10:19,130 --> 01:10:22,410 quickly and, uh, led to a career change. 1102 01:10:22,430 --> 01:10:27,370 And that's happened to plenty of other scientists and physicians. Um, 1103 01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:29,610 but, um, you know, 1104 01:10:29,610 --> 01:10:34,130 I have to really identify his personal role, uh, 1105 01:10:34,130 --> 01:10:35,970 in this because, um, 1106 01:10:36,750 --> 01:10:40,810 the thing that most people who met or, uh, 1107 01:10:40,810 --> 01:10:42,330 corresponded with Dr. 1108 01:10:42,610 --> 01:10:47,330 Lan will tell you was how availing he was of, um, 1109 01:10:47,550 --> 01:10:52,490 his time in helping them with whatever question they posed to him. 1110 01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:55,730 Um, so I've met hundreds of people, 1111 01:10:55,790 --> 01:10:58,610 not just scientists who said, you know, 1112 01:10:58,610 --> 01:11:02,850 I wrote to him and I was shocked. He got back to me. And, you know, 1113 01:11:02,900 --> 01:11:06,130 or even we talked on the phone or Zoom, 1114 01:11:06,130 --> 01:11:10,330 and he gave me all this time, and people are just blown away by that. 1115 01:11:10,860 --> 01:11:15,440 Um, but that's the way he was. Um, as he explained, he didn't, 1116 01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:16,640 didn't have a lot of hobbies, 1117 01:11:16,860 --> 01:11:20,640 but he was always willing to talk about this mm-hmm. . 1118 01:11:21,450 --> 01:11:23,560 Um, so it, it's, 1119 01:11:23,590 --> 01:11:27,880 it's kind of an amazing set of circumstances that Dr. 1120 01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:32,090 Ulum, you know, even got to be a researcher. His, 1121 01:11:32,230 --> 01:11:35,010 his family was persecuted by the Nazis. 1122 01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:38,770 His father was placed in a concentration camp and survived. 1123 01:11:39,230 --> 01:11:42,930 And eventually Dr. Micum found his way to Israel, where, you know, 1124 01:11:42,930 --> 01:11:46,570 we all know his research blossomed. Of course, as a Jewish person, 1125 01:11:46,570 --> 01:11:50,810 this would've been part of his culture and his awareness as an entire life. 1126 01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:56,130 In what ways do you think it influenced his life choices or even research 1127 01:11:56,130 --> 01:12:00,290 choices that, that his, his, he, he grew up in persecuted times? 1128 01:12:01,740 --> 01:12:05,810 Um, yeah. You know, because we had so much one-on-one time, uh, 1129 01:12:05,810 --> 01:12:08,650 these were things I got to talk to him about. You know, his, 1130 01:12:08,650 --> 01:12:12,850 his early experiences and what they went through in the war. 1131 01:12:13,460 --> 01:12:18,050 Um, you know, basically, um, Bulgaria, um, 1132 01:12:18,070 --> 01:12:22,930 was occupied by the Nazis early on. Um, and there was a certain, uh, 1133 01:12:22,930 --> 01:12:26,130 well definite level of, of collaboration, 1134 01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:30,490 of very strange situation, uh, developed. Um, in that, 1135 01:12:30,490 --> 01:12:33,210 king Boris in Bulgaria, uh, 1136 01:12:33,410 --> 01:12:37,570 decided that they would protect the Jews of Bulgaria to an extent, 1137 01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:42,730 but they had invaded Macedonia next door and 1138 01:12:42,770 --> 01:12:44,770 basically allowed, uh, 1139 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,250 even collaborated with the Nazis in, um, 1140 01:12:49,900 --> 01:12:54,210 in sending the Jews of Macedonia to the death camps. 1141 01:12:54,450 --> 01:12:59,210 Tripa, uh, in most instances, uh, there went, uh, 1142 01:12:59,210 --> 01:13:03,730 all of my family on my father's side, uh, with the exception of my grandfather. 1143 01:13:04,580 --> 01:13:09,450 Um, so, um, you know, it was a difficult situation. 1144 01:13:09,460 --> 01:13:13,530 As he mentioned it. His, his father spent time in a concentration camp, 1145 01:13:13,530 --> 01:13:17,090 but when it burned down, and he helped, uh, 1146 01:13:17,090 --> 01:13:21,650 the people that were victims of that, uh, they decided to let him go. 1147 01:13:21,650 --> 01:13:26,010 Mm-hmm. . Um, but, uh, after the war, uh, 1148 01:13:26,010 --> 01:13:29,850 Bulgaria became a communist country. Uh, there was, again, 1149 01:13:30,330 --> 01:13:32,330 increase in antisemitism. And, um, 1150 01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:36,010 that's when he immigrated to Israel in 1949. 1151 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:40,450 What came out of this, um, again, 1152 01:13:40,450 --> 01:13:44,290 it's not something he dwelled upon. However, I think that, 1153 01:13:45,140 --> 01:13:50,090 um, it probably caused him to take nothing for granted, uh, in life. 1154 01:13:50,090 --> 01:13:54,050 He was an extremely open-minded person. Um, 1155 01:13:54,300 --> 01:13:58,250 he also wasn't tainted by politics, which is, 1156 01:13:58,250 --> 01:14:03,170 is so easy to have happen. Um, you know, I can give, 1157 01:14:03,340 --> 01:14:06,370 uh, a lot of examples. Uh, in, 1158 01:14:06,370 --> 01:14:11,010 in 1999 when I met Professor Ulum, I also met, uh, 1159 01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:15,280 professor Mau Soli, uh, from the University of Mississippi, 1160 01:14:16,210 --> 01:14:20,080 uh, who was an Egyptian. And I wondered, geez, 1161 01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,360 how are these guys gonna get along? But in fact, 1162 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,360 they've been colleagues forever and, um, you know, uh, 1163 01:14:26,460 --> 01:14:29,280 the politics of their, uh, 1164 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:34,520 their nations, uh, never entered into their relationship. 1165 01:14:35,070 --> 01:14:35,560 Also, 1166 01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:40,240 when I went to do research on cannabis in Morocco in 2002, 1167 01:14:40,970 --> 01:14:41,390 um, 1168 01:14:41,390 --> 01:14:46,000 I was delighted with how curious people were 1169 01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,640 about Professor Ulum there and the reverence that they had for 'em. 1170 01:14:50,090 --> 01:14:54,600 So it really transcended politics. Uh, finally, uh, 1171 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,680 professor Ulum had Palestinian researchers in his lab. 1172 01:14:59,490 --> 01:15:03,880 Um, you know, and again, there, uh, the business was science. 1173 01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:05,200 It wasn't politics. 1174 01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:09,300 It reminds me of, of how you referred to his, 1175 01:15:09,300 --> 01:15:14,100 his thought that he wasn't as interested in the, in the, you know, 1176 01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:19,300 he, he thought that science should inform regulations and policy. 1177 01:15:19,650 --> 01:15:24,580 I can imagine him having that same idea about politics and, and, and race, 1178 01:15:24,580 --> 01:15:29,140 and how he interacted with others where, where it's like the science was, 1179 01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,940 was the priority. And, and, and it, 1180 01:15:32,940 --> 01:15:36,980 it's better for us to all be all be friends and focus on the science than 1181 01:15:36,980 --> 01:15:41,820 letting the, that, the rest of the world into our lab to, 1182 01:15:41,820 --> 01:15:42,900 to slow us down. 1183 01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:44,460 You bet. Yeah. 1184 01:15:45,190 --> 01:15:49,660 So, I'd like to finish this episode, um, with, um, you know, a bit of a, 1185 01:15:49,660 --> 01:15:52,460 a personal question for you. I really appreciate, um, 1186 01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:55,940 the time that you've offered us, um, and, and sharing your, 1187 01:15:55,940 --> 01:15:58,340 your personal stories of Dr. Ulum. You know, 1188 01:15:58,340 --> 01:16:03,220 obviously the two of you were such good friends as to feel like family, and, uh, 1189 01:16:03,220 --> 01:16:04,820 I'm curious, what was Dr. 1190 01:16:05,250 --> 01:16:09,660 UL's impact on you as both, uh, cannabis researcher, 1191 01:16:09,660 --> 01:16:10,900 but also as a human being? 1192 01:16:12,270 --> 01:16:15,460 Uh, well, he was a role model in every respect. 1193 01:16:15,460 --> 01:16:19,660 He was a very magnanimous and magnetic guy. Uh, 1194 01:16:19,660 --> 01:16:23,820 very warm, um, funny, uh, you know, 1195 01:16:23,820 --> 01:16:28,340 I mentioned we had this, I immediate bond as, uh, fellow Sephardic Jew. 1196 01:16:28,990 --> 01:16:31,660 Um, I considered him like my surrogate uncle. 1197 01:16:31,950 --> 01:16:34,860 He was 22 years older than me. Uh, 1198 01:16:35,230 --> 01:16:39,860 he looked a little bit like my father. Um, you know, for all I know, 1199 01:16:39,860 --> 01:16:44,820 we could have been genetic cousins on some level, um, cuz there was interchange, 1200 01:16:44,990 --> 01:16:48,580 uh, during the Ottoman era between, it was a Bulgarian, 1201 01:16:48,580 --> 01:16:53,580 Macedonia we're all part of the Ottoman Empire at that time. But, 1202 01:16:53,670 --> 01:16:57,940 um, you know, it was a great relationship and, uh, 1203 01:16:58,130 --> 01:17:01,300 I miss him. I was really proud, um, 1204 01:17:01,770 --> 01:17:06,340 that he asked me to write the first chapter of his last book in 2005. 1205 01:17:06,590 --> 01:17:07,310 Um, 1206 01:17:07,310 --> 01:17:12,160 he thought that they needed an article on the history of cannabis and 1207 01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,280 that, um, should, uh, 1208 01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:19,000 begin with one of the oldest cannabis cultures in India. And as it, 1209 01:17:19,130 --> 01:17:24,120 uh, happened, I had this huge amount of data, it amassed with nowhere to go. 1210 01:17:24,660 --> 01:17:28,480 And here he asked me to write a book chapter. And so I, 1211 01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:32,200 I was very pleased with that also. Uh, 1212 01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:36,320 he provided me with what I think is one of the best compliments I've ever had in 1213 01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:40,560 my life. Hmm. Um, it was probably about 2008. 1214 01:17:40,570 --> 01:17:44,520 We were at a conference in London together and, uh, 1215 01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:48,720 he tried to introduce me to somebody already knew, uh, your garage, 1216 01:17:48,860 --> 01:17:50,840 the Swiss scientist. 1217 01:17:51,100 --> 01:17:55,720 And he said something to the effect that of, um, I'd like you to meet, 1218 01:17:55,930 --> 01:17:58,840 uh, my friend Ethan Russo. And then he said, 1219 01:17:59,090 --> 01:18:04,080 he has many crazy ideas, and I, I left like hell, 1220 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,040 because if he knew Rafi, uh, 1221 01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:10,960 that was a great compliment and I certainly took it as such. Um, 1222 01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:12,343 yeah. 1223 01:18:12,350 --> 01:18:17,000 That's a, that's a beautiful story. And, um, I can imagine that, you know, 1224 01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:21,080 right now in this, this, you know, week or two after his passing, um, 1225 01:18:21,780 --> 01:18:26,120 tho those types of thoughts are, are, uh, are heavy, you know, 1226 01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:30,040 on your heart as, as you, you know, look back and appreciate your friendship. 1227 01:18:30,210 --> 01:18:33,320 So thank you Ethan, for, um, you know, 1228 01:18:33,510 --> 01:18:36,160 taking the time to discuss, uh, Dr. 1229 01:18:36,440 --> 01:18:40,920 Ulum with us and sharing your personal stories because, um, you know, 1230 01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:45,320 as we all know over time, um, you know, history changes and, 1231 01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:49,200 and people forget. And it's very important to, um, 1232 01:18:49,530 --> 01:18:52,960 to record these people who mean so much to us. So, 1233 01:18:52,970 --> 01:18:56,760 so that we can remember 'em as as, as they were. So thank you, Ethan. 1234 01:18:57,150 --> 01:18:57,983 Amen. 1235 01:18:58,540 --> 01:19:02,440 All right. So, uh, you dear listener, if you would like to, uh, 1236 01:19:02,440 --> 01:19:05,840 hear more from Dr. Russo, and I think you do, um, 1237 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,320 I've got a bunch of places for you to check out. Um, at the top of the list is, 1238 01:19:09,570 --> 01:19:13,760 uh, you can go tuck out, uh, Dr. Russo's company where, um, 1239 01:19:13,970 --> 01:19:17,640 he does, uh, research that's, uh, credo Science and that's, uh, 1240 01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,440 credo-science.com. Um, 1241 01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:25,320 you can also find, uh, ethan russo.org, 1242 01:19:25,620 --> 01:19:28,400 and if you go to the library tab, um, 1243 01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:32,120 you can see all of Ethan's papers there under that tab, 1244 01:19:32,140 --> 01:19:36,680 and which is really convenient if you wanna, um, look at his work without, 1245 01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:38,400 you know, trying to find out, you know, 1246 01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:41,800 where the papers are online and trying to get permissions to download him and 1247 01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:45,280 all that kind of stuff. Ethan's a a big fan of, of, of having as, 1248 01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:49,720 as many of his papers available as possible. Um, if you would like to, 1249 01:19:49,970 --> 01:19:53,240 uh, reach out to Ethan, uh, directly, um, 1250 01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:55,360 he always offers his email address, 1251 01:19:55,440 --> 01:20:00,400 which is ethanRusso@comcast.net. 1252 01:20:00,900 --> 01:20:04,000 And, you know, I just wanna say that Ethan, you know, 1253 01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:06,960 I think get gets back to everybody, or at least tries to get back to everybody, 1254 01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:11,440 but also realize that he is an active everyday researcher still. 1255 01:20:11,900 --> 01:20:16,320 And so sometimes it takes him a while to get back with folks and, um, you know, 1256 01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,520 you might, you might not get the reply you want until he's, you know, 1257 01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,600 stuck in an airport somewhere for a couple hours. Um, and then, uh, 1258 01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:28,280 there's a great series on the Shaping Fire, uh, YouTube channel, uh, 1259 01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:33,200 the Ethan Russo Shaping Fire Sessions, which is a series of, uh, uh, 1260 01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:38,000 10 short videos on an array of topics that, um, I thought were being under, 1261 01:20:38,610 --> 01:20:40,440 uh, under considered in cannabis. 1262 01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:44,080 And so Ethan and I sat down in his front room and he addressed, um, 1263 01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:49,000 those various topics. And then finally, um, you know, I don't think anybody has, 1264 01:20:49,090 --> 01:20:53,440 uh, appeared on shaping fire as much as Ethan have has. 1265 01:20:53,700 --> 01:20:57,960 And there's, I think there's, uh, either six or seven just fantastic episodes, 1266 01:20:58,450 --> 01:21:02,240 um, where Ethan, uh, shares his research on, you know, 1267 01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,640 a range of topics from, uh, cannabis terpenes, 1268 01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,560 the endocannabinoid system, psilocybin migraines. I mean, 1269 01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:13,920 this is all like really juicy stuff. So I recommend you go back and, 1270 01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:18,680 and check out the, the, the Shaping Fire catalog of episodes. Um, 1271 01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:19,040 you get, 1272 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:22,600 it's easily searchable if you just put Ethan Russo in and it'll pop 'em all up 1273 01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:23,433 for you. 1274 01:21:23,790 --> 01:21:27,570 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the 1275 01:21:27,570 --> 01:21:30,890 show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts. 1276 01:21:31,060 --> 01:21:32,170 If you enjoyed the show, 1277 01:21:32,170 --> 01:21:34,890 we'd really appreciate it if you would leave a positive review of the podcast. 1278 01:21:35,370 --> 01:21:39,250 Wherever you download your review will help others find the show so they can 1279 01:21:39,250 --> 01:21:41,530 enjoy it too. On the Shaping Fire website, 1280 01:21:41,530 --> 01:21:45,130 you can also subscribe to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis 1281 01:21:45,130 --> 01:21:49,490 news exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. 1282 01:21:49,490 --> 01:21:52,170 You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. 1283 01:21:52,580 --> 01:21:54,010 Be sure to follow on Instagram. 1284 01:21:54,010 --> 01:21:58,810 For all original content not found on the podcast that's at Shaping Fire and 1285 01:21:58,820 --> 01:22:00,570 at chango los on Instagram, 1286 01:22:00,900 --> 01:22:04,330 be sure to check out Shaping Fire YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, 1287 01:22:04,330 --> 01:22:05,930 farm tours, and cannabis lectures. 1288 01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:10,170 Does your company wanna reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? 1289 01:22:10,450 --> 01:22:13,810 Email hotspot shaping fire.com to find out how. 1290 01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:17,970 Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Chango Los.