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There are lots of folks in
the regenerative cannabis
community who will say that

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they have been into natural farming
their whole life. And that is not me.

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It isn't that I was
against natural farming,

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it's just that I had never
really considered it.

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I was a Midwest city boy with
a great deadhead weed dealer,

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and I just didn't have
a need to grow my own.

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So I never really gave it much thought.

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But after I moved to
San Francisco in 1994,

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all of that changed when I visited
Dennis Peron's Cannabis Buyers Club,

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I came in contact with
epic varieties of kind bud.

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That totally changed what
I thought weed could be,

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but I really couldn't afford them in
the mounts that I wanted to smoke.

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Top shelf weed is expensive.

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I knew that if I wanted to smoke those
flavors that I was gonna have to learn

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how to grow them myself. So I
started learning about basic n pk,

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growing, focused on the mineral
and chemical content of the soil,

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and really wasn't all
that passionate about it,

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and I didn't really follow through. So
instead of growing the fancy flowers,

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I now knew I wanted,

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I decided I'd to just get a better job
in the virtual reality industry that

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allowed me Ford to buy
that top shelf cannabis.

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Everything changed though when I learned
about Elaine Ingram and her model for

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cultivation called the Soil Food Web.

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Instead of being focused solely on
the nutrient composition of the soil,

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Elaine focused more on the life of
the soil growing cannabis went from

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boring nutrient math to suddenly having
a relationship with microbes and other

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life forms in the root zone.

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It was like having friends in the soil
who I was getting into a relationship

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with. And unlike the tomagotchi
that I kept alive at the time,

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when I kept the microbes in the
soil alive, they grew me amazing,

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thriving cannabis. That was
my kind of relationship.

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My new friends were nematodes,
worms, arthropods, and fungi,

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and we shared the same goals.

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If you wanna learn about cannabis health
cultivation and technique efficiently

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and with good cheer, I encourage
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week, and videos too.

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Sign up for the updates to make sure
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You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and I am your host, Shangle Los.

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00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,590
My guest today is Soil
biologist Andy Marsh.

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Andy is a soil health practitioner and
focuses her efforts on soil restoration

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through her business
Rizzos, LLC based in Texas.

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She studied bio environmental
science at Texas a and m,

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focusing largely on agricultural
microbiology and bioremediation.

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Andy has studied the Soil Food Web with
Elaine Ingham and is a certified Soil

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food web lab technician.

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00:03:26,620 --> 00:03:30,590
That means that Andy has completed all
of Elaine's foundational soil food web

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courses and has gone further to earn
a soil food web certification and

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microscopic soon. She will also have her
Soil Food Web consultant certification.

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Andy has been practicing soil
microbiology for over 12 years.

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During the first set,

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we will talk about seasonal impacts
on soil and biological activity,

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focusing on the metabolism of the soil,

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changing food sources and differences
between container soil and ground soil.

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The second set is the big one today,

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as we look in detail at the sorts of
nutrition available during winter,

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and discuss preparing soil with
specific compost, tea brews,

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biological innoculants, like
protozoa infusions and fungal foods,

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as well as the effective use of
mulches and crop covers. Finally,

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we finish the episode in Set three with
a discussion of best practices to revive

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your soil in the spring
in order to shorten its
transition from winter dormancy

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to actively growing your
thriving cannabis plants.

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Today's episode comes from the perspective
of living soil and the soil food web.

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Today,

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we are most interested in microbial life
and the prey and predator relationship

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in the soil, and how that
changes seasonally. Certainly,

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there are soil chemistry aspects to be
considered after having a yearly soil

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test done, but that's not the focus today.

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Today we set aside mineral and other
amendments and focus squarely on the

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preservation of biological activity in
the soil so that you can preserve your

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gains from year to year.
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Andy.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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So at the end of the season,
temperatures obviously decrease,

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and at the lower temps life
slows down both above and

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below the soil.

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If the soil food web is
cycling life all summer so our

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cannabis plants can grow,

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I'd like to understand which
aspects slow down into the fall

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and winter in the soil, which causes
everything to kind of go to sleep.

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So I guess I'd like you to start
off with a description of an active

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soil food web, a
summertime soil, food web,

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and then describe the mechanisms
that change and slow as we go into

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winter. So that a, as we talk about
how to interact with that, um,

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w we know we know the mechanisms
that we're talking about.

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Sure. So, yeah, you know,
with with the food web,

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we're talking about these
predator prey relationships, um,

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below ground for the most
part. So who's eating who?

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And in the summertime, in
a vegetative growth cycle,

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flowering cycle, it's a very active, uh,

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partnership between the
plants and the microbes

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below ground. They're
constantly communicating.
They're feeding one another.

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And so, uh, in theory,

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if you ha if you've done a great job of
inoculating your soils in the spring,

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and you've established
these relationships, um,

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or really introduced these relationships
between the plants and the microbes,

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there's a lot of, uh, predators, eating
prey, which is cycling nutrients.

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So when I say predators, I'm referring
to things like nematodes, that's, um,

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nematodes that feed on bacteria,
nematodes that feed on fungi. Um,

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and then the protozoa,

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which are primarily bacterial
feeders and things like flags and

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ameba, um, cts as well. Although,
um, and we can come back to this,

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cts are more of an, uh, an indicator
species that we use to, um,

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provide as a sign of, uh,
anaerobic conditions in the soil.

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And so we don't wanna
see too many cts, um,

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among the protozoa in that ecosystem.

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But this brings me to the point
of another feature that's, uh,

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happening in a thriving
root zone is the element of

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diversity. So you'll have a lot of
these different, uh, types of organisms.

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You're not just going to see fungi
or just going to see bacteria.

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You're going to see a l a
little bit of everything, um,

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in your soil at that time.

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And so as things kind of get
colder and are going into a

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more dormant state, the,

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the main, uh, element that is, uh,

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changing there is as the plant dies back,

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it's no longer providing the
root exudates to kind of, uh,

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be a source of fuel and energy for, uh,

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00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:07,920
its microbial partners below ground.
And so their dynamics change. The,

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00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,440
the microbial partners below ground, uh,

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are going to start feeding on other
things and finding other food sources.

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And so that's really important
for us to know as stewards,

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is what are those food sources? Do they
have enough food? Because in theory,

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we actually want them to stay as active
as possible throughout the winter. Um,

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and there's some reasons, there's some
really important reasons for that.

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But in terms of what that, that root
zone could look like in the winter,

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if we don't, um, consider
the, the microbes needs, uh,

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through that period where
they don't have their, uh,

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plant photosynthesizing above ground,

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things tend to go really
dormant below ground. Uh,

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and that means you have protozoa that
are insisting and they're no longer

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feeding on bacteria in general.
Bacteria are kind of the hardiest group,

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so that you're always going to have
your, your cold loving, uh, bacteria,

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your heat loving bacteria,

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and you'll always have some kind of
bacteria activity happening in the root

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zone. Um,

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00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,040
but it's really a matter of losing some
of those larger organisms like your,

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your fungal activity,
your nematode activity,

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and protozoa, that we, we want to, um,

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really try to keep those organism groups
active rather than allowing them to

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go into dormant states.

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So, um, that's interesting because I,

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I thought that you were gonna say
the things slowed down because of the

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temperature primarily, but I'm
getting, I'm getting the idea that, um,

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while yes,

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temperature probably plays a
role that really it's about the,

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the abundance of summertime
food sources that are

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decreasing, and that is actually
what causes the, I don't know,

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metabolism of the soil to slow down.

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Right? So, like in nature,

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if you think about a really
mature forest ecosystem,

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one way that the trees, uh,

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in that ecosystem continue providing
for the microbes underground that

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they're going to rely on,

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more so in spring and summer is many
of the des deciduous trees are going to

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drop their leaves and actually
feed that soil in a different way.

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So it's no longer through root exudates,

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but it's through this leaf
litter on top of the soil.

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And that's doing two things that's
insulating the soil from those harsh

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temperatures that you've referred to,

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and it's also providing some
kind of organic matter, uh,

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to feed into that system to keep the,
the metabolism going below ground.

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So it can actually be quite busy, um,

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if the ecosystem is providing
some kind of food source and

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protection to, uh, the
microorganisms in the root zone.

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00:10:47,550 --> 00:10:52,320
I would think that if the food
source is changing during the winter

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00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,200
from being our cannabis
roots and potential companion

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00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,840
plants to now not being cannabis roots,

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00:11:01,010 --> 00:11:05,880
perhaps still the companion
plantings, but now, um, you know,

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00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:09,560
leaf litter and potentially
a top mulch or whatever,

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00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,080
whatever we're gonna put on
the pot to help it overwinter,

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that that's actually gonna change
the varieties of life forms that are

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actually gonna be active in the soil too.

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00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:21,600
It will, it will certainly.

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00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,560
And a lot of times that leaf
litter or mulch that you're topping

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00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,960
off a container with, or the, the soil
itself with those are carbon rich,

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uh, materials. And so that
is going to provide more, um,

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00:11:36,530 --> 00:11:39,760
benefit to your, your fungal, uh,

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00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,080
types of organisms. So your fungi
are breaking down carbon rich, um,

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00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:50,400
materials more so than bacteria, but
they're all linked. So as one, um,

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00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,000
organism starts feeding
on a particular material,

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00:11:53,490 --> 00:11:57,520
it inevitably creates a byproduct
that another organism can feed on.

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00:11:58,110 --> 00:12:02,680
Thus the soil, food, web, everything's
dependent on everything else. When, when,

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00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:07,160
when the pots, I guess this question
is specifically container oriented,

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00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,200
but when a container gets cold during
the winter, um, you know, it gets,

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00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,120
it gets true, truly cold in a
way that, um, the ground won't,

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00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,960
since the ground is enjoying
some geothermal benefits.

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00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:23,080
Are there some parts of the root zone,

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00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:27,920
some inhabitants that we just know we're
gonna lose during the winter because

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00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,920
they'll cyst up because,
uh, it just simply the,

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00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,600
the cold is enough to knock them, um,

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00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,320
knock them back into a dormant
state instead of just the losing of

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00:12:39,390 --> 00:12:40,560
a their food source?

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00:12:41,860 --> 00:12:45,720
Yes. I kind of think of this
on a good, better, best scale.

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00:12:45,930 --> 00:12:48,000
So best case scenario,

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00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:52,320
you're able to provide the root zone

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00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:54,040
enough, um,

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00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,440
fuel to and protection to actually
maintain some level of activity.

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00:12:58,590 --> 00:13:00,120
That's not always possible.

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00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:05,280
But the second best option
would be to protect it

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00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,840
enough that those organisms
that you do quote unquote lose,

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00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,840
are at least insisting and they're
not actually dying, which is,

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00:13:13,420 --> 00:13:16,720
you know, the, the worst case
scenario is that, uh, the,

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00:13:16,820 --> 00:13:21,800
the extreme temps or
conditions that that soil is

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00:13:21,810 --> 00:13:23,520
exposed to, um,

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00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:27,680
is so severe that you're actually killing
the organisms and you're essentially

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00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,920
starting from square one come springtime
when you're trying to rejuvenate that

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00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:32,753
soil.

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00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:34,800
Interesting. So, um,

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00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:39,840
so often we treat our containers
and sometimes even our fields

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00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:42,880
as, okay, we're done with
it, and we just, like,

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00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,240
people just walk away from it mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, and, and you know,

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00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,960
they get into trimming or, or start
focusing on the holidays or, you know,

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00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,840
just doing anything other than
farming. Um, because yeah,

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00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,240
they've had a long summer, but I'm, I'm
actually getting this idea now that, um,

227
00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:58,440
you know, the, the,

228
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,760
that you wanna make sure that
you button up your soil properly

229
00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:07,520
before you walk away from it,
and not to be too hasty about it,

230
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:12,120
because we, we wanna kind of turn it
from like the, the high, you know,

231
00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:16,760
the high, very active setting
down to like a low simmer mm-hmm.

232
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,520
<affirmative> for the winter, because we,

233
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,680
we don't want it to go entirely to sleep.

234
00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:24,800
We just want it to turn
down so it, it, it,

235
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,720
it eats through the nutrition that
we're setting it up with slowly

236
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,280
throughout the winter.
So that, so that when we,

237
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,160
when we re when we re-approach
it in the spring, we're not,

238
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,640
we're not having to start it
from a cold start, if you will.

239
00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:42,800
There's already a low warmth going on.

240
00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:44,920
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.

241
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:49,800
I think what you observed there
about how hasty we can be once

242
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,000
our growing season is over
is really an invitation to

243
00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:57,120
reflect a little bit. Like I would,

244
00:14:57,150 --> 00:15:01,960
I always encourage people to
consider what's your relationship

245
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,960
with that soil, that
soil that you discarded,

246
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,480
or the soil that you're no longer tending
to just because your cash crop isn't

247
00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:13,240
growing in it right now. Um, and
asking the question, you know, are,

248
00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:16,120
are we going to need that soil
to support our goals later?

249
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:21,240
Or did we rely on it this past
season to produce something

250
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,800
meaningful for us? And, you know,

251
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,000
just because the cash crop isn't
actively growing doesn't mean that our

252
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,840
stewardship responsibilities
for that crop are, uh, over.

253
00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:35,040
Um, we, we do have
responsibilities and there's,

254
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:40,480
the biodiversity of the partners below
ground are part of what makes our

255
00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:43,200
crop successful. And so just, you know,

256
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,680
building a relationship and considering
that when you don't have your,

257
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:49,360
your crop in season,

258
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:54,440
what are you doing to ensure that you
are caring for that soil system so that

259
00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:59,360
you are introducing your plant
to a very hospitable, uh,

260
00:15:59,420 --> 00:16:00,800
new home come spring.

261
00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:05,640
I really like that emphasis
on the stewardship. I
remember a couple years back,

262
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,360
I visited, uh, Nicholas
over at, um, green, um,

263
00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:15,880
a Green Gardens in, in Wolf, Oregon.
And, and he was walking me through, and,

264
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,440
and I like it cause they do a lot of,

265
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,960
of food planting underneath
their cannabis plants.

266
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,280
So they'll have cannabis growing up
top and, and, and p potatoes, uh,

267
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,160
growing underneath and, um, uh, green
source gardens. That's it. And so,

268
00:16:29,170 --> 00:16:31,880
uh, and I asked him, I said,
oh, I bet you, I said, oh,

269
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,440
I bet you're really gonna be happy to
like, walk away from the garden and,

270
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,240
and be done with it. And he says, you
know, I I, I've never really done with it.

271
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,800
He's all like, the, the soil is
a family member, you know, and,

272
00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:49,400
and just because, um, it's,
we're going into winter, I don't,

273
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,760
I can't just turn my back on it. Um, I,

274
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,720
I need to do what I can to make sure
that it's taken care of and fed and loved

275
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,560
through the winter so that we're
not strangers in the spring. Mm-hmm.

276
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,960
<affirmative>, and, and
like the first part of that,

277
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,720
I may have paraphrased poorly
from him, but the, so that,

278
00:17:05,770 --> 00:17:09,200
so that we're not strangers with the soil
in the spring is the part that really,

279
00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:12,760
um, held on for, for me mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. And, uh, and I thought,

280
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,960
I thought that was beautiful.
And, and, and, and it,

281
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,000
it sounds very similar to the i,

282
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,840
this idea of stewardship
that you're putting forth.

283
00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:22,000
Oh, definitely. I love
that phrase too. To,

284
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,000
to be strangers in the spring feels
so uncomfortable and you almost start

285
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,280
feeling guilty at that point,
you know, cuz I've been there.

286
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,960
E even even as someone who
considers themselves very, um,

287
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,600
enamored with soil more
so than the plant itself,

288
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,720
sometimes when that planting season's
over, you just are eager to, uh,

289
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,200
get comfortable and, and kind of
step away from that work for a while.

290
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,920
And I think that's okay. I
think there's room for both.

291
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,840
Like we all deserve rest and we
should, um, snatch rest when we can,

292
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,120
when we can get it. Um, but there's,
you know, finding a balance,

293
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,960
like what does it mean to you to stay
connected to that soil throughout

294
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,320
the winter and finding ways to do
it, uh, that that makes sense to you.

295
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,760
And given that season of,
of the year and in life.

296
00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:14,090
Um, I think also to, to take
it into an a non soil example,

297
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,210
I feel the same way when I rush,

298
00:18:16,210 --> 00:18:19,890
taking the plastic off of my greenhouses
in the fall mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

299
00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:22,610
and if I don't put them away
properly, you know, if I don't,

300
00:18:22,610 --> 00:18:25,130
if I don't wash 'em down, let 'em dry,

301
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,210
fold them up and like lovingly
put them back. You know,

302
00:18:28,490 --> 00:18:30,890
if it's a season where
I pull 'em down wet,

303
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,010
I roll 'em into a ball and I shove them
in the back of the barn, um, which,

304
00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:38,010
you know, it's not something
that I, I I'm ever proud of,

305
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:42,290
but it happens sometimes, right? And when
I come back in the spring, I see that,

306
00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:46,850
you know, now the, the, it's the
plastic is moldy and it's, and it's,

307
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:51,530
and it's crunchy and it's, it's all like,
oh, you did me bad chango, you know,

308
00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:55,650
<laugh>. And, um, I, that same thing
happens with our soil. If, if we,

309
00:18:55,660 --> 00:18:58,290
if we want to have a
good start in our spring,

310
00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:03,210
we need to end the fall
properly as well. Um, so let's,

311
00:19:03,210 --> 00:19:07,890
let's talk about the, some
of the differences that,
um, that there is in the,

312
00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:13,490
the, the changing from
a container versus, uh,

313
00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:18,490
the ground. And so, um, you
know, during, during set two,

314
00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:23,490
we're gonna go into more detail
about the things we want to do, um,

315
00:19:23,870 --> 00:19:26,450
for, uh, our soil, what, whatever,

316
00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:30,770
whether it's in the ground or whether
it's in a container. But as far as the,

317
00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:32,290
the coming of winter,

318
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,210
I would think that the containers
are at a much higher risk

319
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:41,770
of getting true seasonal
damage than the soil is

320
00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:44,690
because we have a, uh, uh,

321
00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:49,090
smaller d diversi diversity of
life forms because it's just

322
00:19:49,090 --> 00:19:53,010
contained in the container and things
aren't generally coming in and out unless

323
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:57,530
it's being like delivered by, you
know, birds or frogs or, uh, people,

324
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,610
people <laugh> and life forms
that are going by. Right. People,

325
00:20:00,610 --> 00:20:05,250
uhhuh <affirmative>, um, versus
the, the, the actual ground soil,

326
00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:10,530
which has got huge amount
of biodiversity and also is

327
00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:14,570
being somewhat kept warm just
from the nature of earth. Um,

328
00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:16,530
would you agree that that,

329
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,650
that those of us who are
growing in containers really
have to pay more attention

330
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,130
because the ground some
more often than not,

331
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,130
will cover your mistakes,
whereas a container won't? Hmm.

332
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,490
Yeah. The ground is much more forgiving
in that way. Certainly. And, you know,

333
00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:37,090
not to say that we, we can't also find a
way to mess that up <laugh>, right? By,

334
00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:40,330
by poor practices. But in general, um,

335
00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:45,330
more forgiving in in ground planting
and in ground, uh, um, you know,

336
00:20:45,330 --> 00:20:48,160
stewardship of the, of the micro world. I,

337
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,920
I think it's like anything
in controlled agriculture or,

338
00:20:53,410 --> 00:20:57,640
uh, when, when we're trying
to emulate nature, it's,

339
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,080
it's always imperfect,
but we just do our best.

340
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,800
And so when we have these containers, um,

341
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:07,760
I think definitely the two points that
you brought up are the, are the most, um,

342
00:21:08,370 --> 00:21:11,280
obvious ones. You know,
like you, you have, uh,

343
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,440
more of that surface is
exposed, um, the, and one,

344
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,200
the surface I'm talking about is
like the actual root zone is exposed,

345
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,400
where that's just not the
case in ground. And the, the,

346
00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:23,240
uh,

347
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,320
observation you made about migration of
organisms is kind of a less obvious one

348
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,720
to people. So that really is a limiting
factor if you think about it. Um,

349
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,720
like even during the growing season,

350
00:21:33,940 --> 00:21:37,440
you don't have migration between
one root zone and another.

351
00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:39,920
And sometimes that can be helpful, um,

352
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,280
if you have really strong plants with
great microbial partnerships that are

353
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:44,780
thriving,

354
00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:49,520
and then maybe some plants thought have
some kind of disease and could benefit

355
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:54,200
from, um, you know, the migration
of those organisms from one,

356
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,440
one side of your planting to the other.

357
00:21:56,620 --> 00:21:59,240
And some people would actually
view that in the opposite way.

358
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,000
It's kind of like a, is this
glass half full or half empty?

359
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,880
Some people would be concerned like,
oh, well, when you share root zone,

360
00:22:05,420 --> 00:22:08,800
now you have the risk of
pathogens, um, tearing through.

361
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:13,200
And that that is also
true. But, um, if you're,

362
00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:16,400
if you're actually growing
from a biological perspective,

363
00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:22,400
your decisions and your amendments are all

364
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,840
about focusing on beneficial organisms
and kind of taking up real estate,

365
00:22:27,410 --> 00:22:31,960
uh, on, on the root surfaces
and plant services as well. Um,

366
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,640
because they migrate below ground and
above ground all these organisms and

367
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:35,920
you're,

368
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,600
you're taking up real estate
so that pathogen pest and
pathogens don't even have

369
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,520
a chance to come in. So that's really
what we're doing with, uh, our amendments,

370
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,360
whether it's in pots or in ground.

371
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:51,000
But I do find that you have to be
much more diligent in any kind of

372
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,840
container, um, because
each, each plant now is, um,

373
00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:58,840
has its own root zone
that you have to tend to,

374
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,120
rather than one single root
zone that has shared resources.

375
00:23:02,540 --> 00:23:05,760
And shared communication between
the plants as well. Yes. Um,

376
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,360
I think that's one of the first things
that we have to give up and we start

377
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:15,040
practicing natural farming
versus some of the more sterile

378
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:19,320
kinds. Like, like, you know, certain
types of hydroponics and such is that, um,

379
00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:23,400
we are, we don't have sterile soil.

380
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,400
There are pathogens in every one of
our pots mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And,

381
00:23:27,620 --> 00:23:32,600
and it's not about like making
sure my containers don't have

382
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,720
any pathogens. It's about, um, uh,

383
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,480
feeding the beneficial and making sure
the environment for the beneficial are

384
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,160
positive so that they are always
outcompeting the pathogens,

385
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,560
but we know the pathogens
are there. It's a,

386
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,880
it's a hard truth that's like really
creeps a lot of people out when they,

387
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:53,480
when they come to regenerative style
farming at first. But, but you know,

388
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,640
technically the pathogens
are part of, of the, the,

389
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,320
the food web as well. And we just
want them to play a very small role.

390
00:24:01,820 --> 00:24:05,720
Yes, I agree. And I feel like there
might even be an analogy here somewhere,

391
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,560
like with our human societies,

392
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,880
like you're always gonna
have a bad egg on a team,

393
00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:13,880
but in general that team's
much more resilient when
you have a lot of, you know,

394
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,800
good healthy communicative
partners that are helping move the

395
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,120
ball forward, you know, and they
might even, uh, band together and say,

396
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,360
enough is enough and we're getting rid
of this parasite that <laugh> is in,

397
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,520
you know, messing with our, our
goals. So I, if you can kind of,

398
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,960
sometimes that helps to just relate to
the soil in some way is like thinking

399
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,520
about it, their communities
similar to ours in general,

400
00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:42,160
you know, their, the systems in place are,

401
00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:47,480
are moving towards beneficial
partnerships and it's only

402
00:24:47,710 --> 00:24:52,640
when there's an imbalance in the
ecosystem that there's a specific

403
00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:57,640
set of organisms that take advantage of
that. And let me just take a moment too,

404
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,200
Chango, if you don't mind
kind of explaining some of
my perspective on pathogens

405
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,920
<laugh>. Um, cuz I think it
might be of interest here.

406
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:07,063
Please.

407
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:12,200
The, when I think of pathogens, this
is, you know, this is me trying to,

408
00:25:12,530 --> 00:25:17,320
uh, reframe pathogens. So I'm,
I'm not perfect at, you know,

409
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,160
not getting angry when I see,

410
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,800
when I see something that
is destroying the garden.

411
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:26,840
But I think of pathogens as, uh,
filling a role in the ecosystem.

412
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:30,040
What a pathogen's essentially doing and,

413
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,720
and why it's evolved is that
that soil is sick in some way

414
00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:39,320
and it's destroying the above ground
organic matter to feed that soil.

415
00:25:39,740 --> 00:25:40,920
And, you know,

416
00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:45,880
in time that process of pests and
pathogens destroying the above

417
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,840
ground parts of the plants and returning
those nutrients to the soil would set

418
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,080
the stage for a stronger
and more resilient, uh,

419
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:58,000
environment that would actually support
more and more beneficial microorganisms

420
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,960
and kind of do themselves the
pathogens out of their job.

421
00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:06,000
So when you see a pathogen,
it's really telling to say, oh,

422
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,240
well, something's amiss here.

423
00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:12,400
The plant isn't actually
getting everything that it
needs from me. So this is,

424
00:26:12,550 --> 00:26:16,360
that's one way that the ecosystem
is communicating with you.

425
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:21,040
And instead of trying to stamp it
out with, uh, pesticides and, uh,

426
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,360
whatever else we can get our hands on,
that is more of like a sterilizing, uh,

427
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:26,320
effect, um,

428
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,280
just consider what can we do to add to
the system to give that plant what it

429
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,640
needs in order to fight that
pathogen or eliminate it, um,

430
00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:38,440
so that it's no longer
needed in that ecosystem.

431
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:41,360
I think that's a really healthy way
of looking at about it. That, that,

432
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:42,440
even though, I mean,

433
00:26:43,090 --> 00:26:47,720
because our goal is to
have beautiful high terpene

434
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,720
profile, high cannabinoid flowers,
that's, that's the end goal.

435
00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:57,360
And so the, if the pathogen is
challenging us from getting to our goal,

436
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,080
it makes us wanna be pissed
off at the pathogen, right?

437
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,240
When actually it is playing
its role. Just like,

438
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,560
just like if I get sick
and I get a, uh, I get a a,

439
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,960
a high temperature myself and I'm like,
oh, I'm so tired from having this,

440
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,840
this high temperature, but,

441
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,160
but my body's intentionally increasing
the temperature so that I can heal.

442
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,400
It's trying to heal me. And,

443
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,200
and I think that if we embrace
the pathogens as being a partner,

444
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,200
but a partner that we really don't want
to have to do their role very often,

445
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:33,400
that's probably a more holistic approach
to thinking about our soil instead of

446
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,680
like, good guys and bad guys.

447
00:27:35,090 --> 00:27:39,080
Exactly. Exactly. I appreciate that
analogy that you provided as well.

448
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,080
Right on. So, all right, great. Well, um,
I think that's set two where we we're.

449
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,280
We talk about the what to do and why is
gonna be the fattest of the three sets.

450
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,320
So why don't we go ahead and, uh, wrap
up and go to our commercial break,

451
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,840
and then we'll get right to set two,

452
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,160
which is probably what most
people are here for anyway.

453
00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:58,520
So we're gonna go ahead and take a
short break and be right back. Um,

454
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,440
you are listening to Shaping Fire and
my guest today is Soil biologist Andy

455
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,920
Marsh. So without these advertisers
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551
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Welcome back. You are listening to
Shaping Fire. I am your host, Chango Lo,

552
00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:08,930
and my guest today is Soil biologist
Andy Marsh. So before the break,

553
00:34:08,930 --> 00:34:10,650
we were talking about, you know,

554
00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:14,770
ge getting us all on the same page as far
as an understanding of the soil, food,

555
00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:18,130
web, what is happening
like systemically, uh,

556
00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:20,410
in the soil as temperatures. Cool.

557
00:34:21,110 --> 00:34:26,050
And kind of making sure that
we all understand that w we're

558
00:34:26,050 --> 00:34:30,030
not the, the winter does
not make the system stop.

559
00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:34,110
The winter makes the
system slow. And so, um,

560
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:39,150
set two is going to all be
about what can we do for our

561
00:34:39,150 --> 00:34:44,110
soil in what ways so that
we can turn our soil down

562
00:34:44,110 --> 00:34:49,030
to this slow simmer so we don't
become strangers with it in the

563
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:53,510
spring. So, um, uh, what do you
think about this, Andy? I, I,

564
00:34:53,580 --> 00:34:57,390
I was trying to figure out what
our goals are for containers and,

565
00:34:57,490 --> 00:35:01,550
and soil going into
the, the winter. And I,

566
00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:05,870
and I and I made this list that
we want the soil to be fed, warm,

567
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,310
watered, drained, and then
undamaged during the winter. Mm-hmm.

568
00:35:11,350 --> 00:35:12,870
<affirmative>, does that sound
like a pretty good list to you?

569
00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:16,070
Yeah, I really like the
last one undamaged. I would,

570
00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:17,990
I would've used the word undisturbed,

571
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:19,950
but I think we're getting at the
same thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

572
00:35:19,950 --> 00:35:24,910
So basically just not trying
to disrupt that all of those

573
00:35:25,310 --> 00:35:28,630
organisms that are doing their
work during the winter mm-hmm.

574
00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:32,590
<Affirmative>. So let, let's start
by getting rid of something, uh,

575
00:35:32,590 --> 00:35:36,910
that I see all the time on.
Um, like, not not huge farms,

576
00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:39,440
but just like scaled regenerative farms.

577
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:42,640
It is not uncommon for me to go to a,

578
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:47,440
a farm tour and to see that
cultivators have stacked

579
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,720
their large, uh, containers during
the off season. And, you know,

580
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:55,240
it, the, just looking at it,

581
00:35:55,240 --> 00:36:00,160
it looks like an obviously bad
practice because at the very least we

582
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,720
are compacting the soil by stacking the,

583
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,400
the pots. And, and every
time you go up a level,

584
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,840
it's more and more weight
that's compacting a soil. Um,

585
00:36:11,940 --> 00:36:16,840
but I bet that you have e
other ver more specific,

586
00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:22,040
uh, reasons why we should not be
stacking our, our specialty fabric pots,

587
00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:25,280
um, uh, over the winter. So would
we start with that? Cause I wanna,

588
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,200
I wanna remove that as
an option for folks.

589
00:36:27,490 --> 00:36:29,840
Oh, sure. Yeah. I think there's a lot of,

590
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:35,320
a lot of evidence for not wanting to,
to do that. Um, I'm sure it won't.

591
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,560
Let me just first start by
kind of empathizing with
why you might find yourself

592
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,680
doing that. And I suspect it's one,

593
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,800
kind of what we were talking about
earlier about you're done with the growing

594
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,440
season, you're just trying to pack
things up and get things, um, put,

595
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,080
put away and kind of outta sight and in
a space where they're not going to be

596
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,520
completely drenched in
snow or whatever else. Um,

597
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,360
so I can empathize with wanting to
stack your pots of soil, you know,

598
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,240
in a corner. And you might even think
that you're doing a good thing by, um,

599
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:09,640
removing them from the
elements in some regard. Um, I,

600
00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:13,040
but the more you kind of consider
what's going on in those pots,

601
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:17,240
the less of a good idea this, this
becomes, um, because you're right,

602
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,320
you are certainly compacting
the soil and that's problematic

603
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:27,100
for a lot of reasons. Um,
reason number one, though,

604
00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:32,140
a soil structure is something
that I get really excited about,

605
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:36,180
um, because it's the, it's
where like biology, chemistry,

606
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,980
and the physics of the soil
meat is like creating great soil

607
00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:42,080
structure.

608
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,460
And it's something that we're attempting
to create throughout the growing

609
00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:51,300
season. And we, whether we realize it
or not, um, are contributing to, or,

610
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,220
or taking away from, uh,
throughout the growing season.

611
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,780
And then come wintertime,

612
00:37:55,910 --> 00:38:00,300
if we don't realize what kind of gains
we made in terms of the improving the

613
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,820
soil structure, we, and then we go
and stack these soils like that, um,

614
00:38:05,020 --> 00:38:06,500
we're really setting our,

615
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:10,500
we're we're really kind of regressing
in terms of whatever progress we might

616
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:15,260
have made, um, in, in improving
that soil's structure. So,

617
00:38:15,470 --> 00:38:20,140
uh, yeah, compaction is like a
surefire way to kind of, um, you're,

618
00:38:20,140 --> 00:38:24,780
you're not only physically putting
pressure to the soil surface and creating

619
00:38:24,780 --> 00:38:26,220
compaction from the top down,

620
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:29,100
but you're also kind of sealing
off the top of that soil.

621
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:33,700
So there's limited air
exchange and, and limited, um,

622
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:38,800
moisture exchange. Um, and this is what
happens in, in-ground systems when we,

623
00:38:39,090 --> 00:38:43,720
um, com compact them through
any number of means. Um,

624
00:38:43,950 --> 00:38:47,240
that's called soil ceiling
when you do that. Um, and,

625
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:51,920
and whether you're doing it by stacking
pots or, um, you know, mowing a,

626
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,560
a space too, too often and
creating compaction that way,

627
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:56,960
but at the end of the day,

628
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,680
you're really reducing that
soil's ability to bring oxygen in,

629
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,440
which all of these microbes
that we're talking about,

630
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,800
all these beneficial
microbes really need oxygen.

631
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:09,960
And the ones that thrive in
oxygen poor environments are,

632
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:10,960
are pathogens.

633
00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:15,670
Right on. So, so we want
to make sure that we, we,

634
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:19,710
our top soil can get air
exchange, it can get some,

635
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,390
uh, you know, rain and snow and,
you know, interact with, with, uh,

636
00:39:25,390 --> 00:39:29,630
nature as it will. And, um, I like
what you said where, you know,

637
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,190
if we've spent all summer
treating our soil fantastically,

638
00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:39,550
why on earth would we want to
suddenly give those advances

639
00:39:39,550 --> 00:39:43,990
back by, by stacking them
and then crushing the soil,

640
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,630
uh, structure that we've and our worms
have spent all summer working on mm-hmm.

641
00:39:48,670 --> 00:39:49,510
<Affirmative>. Exactly.

642
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:53,190
And then that makes our job a lot harder
come springtime when we're dealing with

643
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:57,070
soil. If you plan to reuse that
soil, which, you know, you might not,

644
00:39:57,070 --> 00:40:00,830
you might find that you actually need
to purchase new soil or make new soil,

645
00:40:00,830 --> 00:40:04,030
which can be very labor
intensive. And I feel like if you,

646
00:40:04,030 --> 00:40:07,430
the more you can do taking
care of the soil, you got, uh,

647
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:12,030
the less labor and inputs and
expenses you'll have come springtime,

648
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,670
uh, in dealing with that soil.

649
00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:18,910
I'm really grateful that the, the
cannabis growing scene as a whole has,

650
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,310
um, embraced reusing soil. Um, it wasn't,

651
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,750
it wasn't too long ago that
people thought that they needed to

652
00:40:27,950 --> 00:40:32,030
rebuy soil for every cycle.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um,

653
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:34,910
both indoors and out. And because they,

654
00:40:34,910 --> 00:40:38,550
they wanted to keep it as sterile
as possible, but sure. But,

655
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:43,470
but now we're realizing that
that aged older soil has with,

656
00:40:43,470 --> 00:40:47,750
has got so much more, uh, personality,
if you will mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and,

657
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:51,630
and it's that biodiversity which
actually makes your cannabis taste good.

658
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:53,550
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> good.

659
00:40:53,550 --> 00:40:55,710
I'm, I like that. Mm-hmm. Sorry.

660
00:40:55,710 --> 00:40:59,550
I'm like, sipping on my coffee
or, but yes. Yes. Uh, I,

661
00:40:59,550 --> 00:41:00,910
I'm glad to hear that about,

662
00:41:00,910 --> 00:41:05,910
about cannabis culture is that you're
able to see this shift towards, uh,

663
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,590
reusing soil and rejuvenating
it rather than, yeah.

664
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:12,710
Creating more and more sterile
environments. That's a good thing.

665
00:41:12,770 --> 00:41:16,910
All right. So if our goals for our
soil is to have it fed, warm, watered,

666
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:21,750
and drained, um, let's start
with the fed part. So, um,

667
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,830
uh, many folks have got their
favorite, uh, amendments that they,

668
00:41:26,830 --> 00:41:29,910
you know, they've, they've harvested
their cannabis plant, and then they will,

669
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:34,080
they will amend or
inoculate or add something,

670
00:41:34,650 --> 00:41:37,960
um, before they walk away
for the winter. So let's,

671
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,840
let's talk about a couple of those
and, um, specifically, you know,

672
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,240
a as I was saying in the introduction,
we're not approaching today's episode,

673
00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:51,080
um, dryly chemically like, okay,

674
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,560
I did my soil test and now I need to
add this kind of n p k kind of action.

675
00:41:55,720 --> 00:42:00,400
We're talking about what
kinds of amendments we're
gonna be doing to keep the,

676
00:42:00,540 --> 00:42:04,000
the life force of the living soil intact.

677
00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:09,120
And so by all means, you know, uh,
do your, um, do your soil tests and,

678
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,120
and react to those.

679
00:42:10,420 --> 00:42:14,640
But we also want to make sure
that our soil just stays alive.

680
00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:19,040
So, so let's start with,
um, nutrition. So, um,

681
00:42:19,450 --> 00:42:22,880
so taking what you said during
the first set that there are, um,

682
00:42:23,260 --> 00:42:27,920
the food sources are
changing from the, uh,

683
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,880
from the rhizosphere,

684
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,880
getting exudates from my cannabis
plant roots and having that back and

685
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,960
forth relationship, but now
the cannabis plant is gone.

686
00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:42,720
And so I want to add
some nutrition so that,

687
00:42:43,290 --> 00:42:47,120
um, everybody stays alive in the, uh,

688
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,840
root zone when the root zones are
not feeding them. So what types of,

689
00:42:52,170 --> 00:42:53,400
um, uh,

690
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,280
nutrition as a soil
biologist do you find are,

691
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:01,120
are going to be most beneficial for
the folks that we want to keep going?

692
00:43:02,410 --> 00:43:03,300
Yeah. So,

693
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:08,140
so one way to think
about this is to take a,

694
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:11,700
take an approach where you're providing
a variety of foods, because again,

695
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,500
the theme here of the day
is going to be biodiversity.

696
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:19,300
So if you are trying
to cultivate, nurture,

697
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:23,860
and maintain a biodiverse
microbial community, then you,

698
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:29,020
the more different types of foods you
can provide to your soils o often the

699
00:43:29,020 --> 00:43:33,940
better. And so one way to do that
is to take a multi-prong approach by

700
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:38,700
feeding the soils through maybe a
cover crop so that, that, you know,

701
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,020
something that would
survive your conditions, um,

702
00:43:41,020 --> 00:43:45,460
when you're not growing your cannabis
plant anymore. But you instead, uh,

703
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:49,260
come and plant a, a cover
crop that will, uh, feed, uh,

704
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,540
the soil root exudates in,
in lieu of your cash crop.

705
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:58,460
And then, um, compost tea
is another great option.

706
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:59,020
I,

707
00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:02,660
and I would just wanna take a moment to
kind of explain the difference between

708
00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:07,540
an extract and a t and an extract
is you're generally just trying

709
00:44:07,540 --> 00:44:09,580
to knock the microbes, um,

710
00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:14,300
off the surfaces of solid compost
so that you end up with a liquid

711
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:17,700
that has just kind of
free floating organisms.

712
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,860
And those are really great for soil
drenches. Um, also in containers,

713
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:27,380
of course, to kind of infiltrate those
organisms through the soil profile.

714
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,920
And teas are a little bit different in
that you have that brewing step. So you,

715
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,880
so you do the same thing where you're
knocking off the microbes from the

716
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,280
surfaces of the solid compost,

717
00:44:37,420 --> 00:44:40,960
but this time you'll have a brewing
cycle where you're adding microbial foods

718
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,800
and you're effectively increasing
the population sizes of those

719
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,680
organisms, and you're kind of providing
them this packed lunch, so to speak,

720
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,840
whenever you, um, distribute that
liquid onto your, your soils.

721
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:57,920
And so, um,

722
00:44:58,070 --> 00:45:02,760
I like tea as a method to feed the,

723
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:07,240
uh, root zone in the wintertime because
it has more microbial foods in it.

724
00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:11,800
And I'm not so focused on
inoculating because it, it,

725
00:45:12,010 --> 00:45:15,960
it is a challenging time,
<laugh>. And, um, we, in theory,

726
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,000
if we've done a lot of great
inoculating throughout the season, um,

727
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:24,920
our main goal is just providing a
food source and not so much on, um,

728
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,600
inoculating. Of course, inoculating
is always happening. So, um,

729
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:32,800
it comes springtime. I just kinda
wanna differentiate that you're,

730
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,720
you'd be more focused on introducing
new organisms into that soil, um,

731
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:41,760
but not so much in the fall and winter.
And then lastly, there's, you know,

732
00:45:41,810 --> 00:45:45,960
compost and, and mulch
are also ways to, uh,

733
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,880
feed the soil, uh, nutrition.
And, uh, those are,

734
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,080
those are gonna be a different set of
food as well than what you might have

735
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,920
incorporated, uh, through
a tea. And of course, the,

736
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,400
the cover crop is kind of the unique, uh,

737
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,000
food source that we can't necessarily
replicate because it's coming directly

738
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,440
from a photosynthesizing plant.

739
00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:07,560
Oh, gosh. There is so much
in this, in that answer.

740
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,120
I'm excited to tear this apart with
you. All right. So, okay, good.

741
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,840
Let's go step by step. So,
um, so the first thing we,

742
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,720
that you were talking about was the
variety of, of nutrition. So, so,

743
00:46:18,850 --> 00:46:22,960
um, uh, uh, I'm gonna ask my
next question about compost tea,

744
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,440
but right now I'm talking about what, um,

745
00:46:26,670 --> 00:46:28,840
like natural amendments. So, so are you,

746
00:46:28,980 --> 00:46:33,960
are you talking about adding
the, for example, like, uh, like,

747
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,960
like, like crab shell and
feather meal and alfalfa meal,

748
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,040
and like, things like that. Uh,
like making a blend of that mm-hmm.

749
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,360
<affirmative> like we would when
we are making soil and then,

750
00:46:46,740 --> 00:46:51,040
and then putting that onto the
soil as a top dress, or, or,

751
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,600
and that maybe we'll then
cover with a mulch. Are, are,

752
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,120
are you talking about specifically adding
that type, those types of nutrition?

753
00:46:59,180 --> 00:47:01,520
And, and if so, um, what,

754
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,680
what varieties of that nutrition
do you think work well in winter?

755
00:47:06,330 --> 00:47:07,163
Mm.

756
00:47:07,460 --> 00:47:11,640
The ones that you mentioned
feel more like they,

757
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:15,880
they lean towards mineral amendments
mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which, you know,

758
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:20,960
do eventually end up interacting with
biology. I mean, most everything does,

759
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:25,520
but, um, I, that's where I would again,

760
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,720
kind of take this approach
to your soil health,

761
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:31,360
not strictly from this.

762
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,400
Dogmatic biology is the only
thing that matters mode,

763
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:40,200
but more, more from a, an
interdisciplinary approach and,

764
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,080
and really doing those
soil chemistry reports,

765
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,480
saturated pace tests, um,

766
00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:50,720
and maybe even considering some of the
leaf tissue analysis that you might have

767
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:52,320
done during the growing season.

768
00:47:52,860 --> 00:47:57,280
And those are the things that
are going to inform your mineral

769
00:47:57,350 --> 00:47:59,840
amendments that you
might wanna make. And I,

770
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,080
I do think this is a good
time to be making those, um,

771
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,760
mineral amendments going into the winter.

772
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:09,400
And all of this is an
experiment too, right? You'll,

773
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,240
you'll find that maybe you amended the
soil going into your dormant period,

774
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:18,920
and then I would recommend testing it
again once you're, it comes planting time.

775
00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:23,680
Um, and just see like, did it move
the needle and on in some areas?

776
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,800
Maybe it did in some areas it didn't,
and record that stuff, you know,

777
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,800
really be diligent about, um,
what's functioning and what's not,

778
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:37,160
and getting curious about
why that might be. Um, so I,

779
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,000
I hope that kind of answers
part of your question.

780
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:39,640
It, it does.

781
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,560
I actually think that I just learned
something because the very nature of my

782
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,040
question, I think is wrong. So I,

783
00:48:48,270 --> 00:48:52,720
I asked that question with
the assumption or belief

784
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:56,920
that, um, I like this term
mineral amendments, that these,

785
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,400
these types of mineral amendments that
are the same ones that we use when we're

786
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,280
responding to a soil test and we need
to, we need to round out our soil.

787
00:49:05,870 --> 00:49:10,400
I was under the impression
that the microbe life

788
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:13,720
also ate these,

789
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,200
these mineral amendments.
And so in my head,

790
00:49:18,510 --> 00:49:23,440
I was, I was going to feed my
microbe life both by adding

791
00:49:24,010 --> 00:49:28,800
compost tea, which we'll talk more about
in a minute, but also with these, um,

792
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:33,880
with these other mineral
amendments. But, but I guess it's,

793
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,560
it's probably true that
that microbe life may not

794
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,240
even eat minerals. I mean, I may, if
I, I could be really wrong on this and,

795
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,600
and, and, and, but I'm always,

796
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,880
I'm always learning and
embarrassing myself publicly
on the show anyway. Oh, no.

797
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,240
So, so, so do, does the life, the,

798
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:55,040
the living parts of the rhizosphere,
do they eat that stuff or not?

799
00:49:55,790 --> 00:49:59,400
Yeah, and and to be clear, I'm
always learning too. So, you know,

800
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:00,360
just keep that in mind.

801
00:50:00,380 --> 00:50:05,200
But my expectation is that
those mineral amendments

802
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,000
are really useful during the growing
season when we recognize that there's a

803
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,280
mineral deficiency, the,

804
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,440
because the plant is in
relationship with the microbes,

805
00:50:15,530 --> 00:50:20,200
there's communication happening
and in incentives being

806
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,480
offered, um,

807
00:50:21,810 --> 00:50:25,640
to those microbes to provide the
particular minerals that that plant is

808
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,440
deficient in. And so it's, it's pulling,

809
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,040
it is providing that from the
minerals that we're adding,

810
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:35,880
but maybe that dynamic
isn't so relevant come, uh,

811
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:40,600
wintertime because you don't
have that same crop in,

812
00:50:40,860 --> 00:50:43,080
you know, as part of that ecosystem.

813
00:50:43,150 --> 00:50:46,240
This is a breakthrough
moment for me. I get this.

814
00:50:46,290 --> 00:50:50,840
So the mineral amendments are not
really for feeding the microbes.

815
00:50:51,180 --> 00:50:55,120
The mineral amendments
are what the plant wants,

816
00:50:55,380 --> 00:51:00,040
and the microbes will bring
them to the plant in exchange

817
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,000
for exudates and other types
of food from the plant.

818
00:51:03,380 --> 00:51:06,360
But during the winter when
the plant isn't there,

819
00:51:06,610 --> 00:51:11,200
we don't really need the
mineral amendments because
there's no bartering going

820
00:51:11,250 --> 00:51:13,480
on between the microbe life and the plant.

821
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:18,480
And so we're just trying
to replace what the

822
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,760
microbe life normally gets from the plant.

823
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,040
Right. And I would say,
I would say more, we're,

824
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,960
we're not necessarily trying to
replicate exudates in any way. We're,

825
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,920
we're trying to provide foods that
we know microorganisms feed on

826
00:51:34,110 --> 00:51:36,760
when there are no living plant roots.

827
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,120
And that's in general organic matter.

828
00:51:40,210 --> 00:51:44,240
So like your humic
acids, fulvic acids, um,

829
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,440
when you're brewing a tea, maybe you, um,

830
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,760
consider fish hydrolysate and you
wanna do these things mindfully.

831
00:51:51,770 --> 00:51:53,960
So I'm not going to, um,

832
00:51:54,540 --> 00:51:59,520
get into any specific ratios or
anything here, but just, you know,

833
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,720
kind of stay high level in terms of how
to think through it. But when you are,

834
00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:06,400
uh, when you are brewing a tea,

835
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:12,000
you wanna consider what,
what is living in your soil,

836
00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:15,400
and you can do this through
a microscopy assessment.

837
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:20,240
That's the most assure fire way to
know what's living in there and what's

838
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:25,240
not. Um, but you can also
kind of do this through, um,

839
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:29,640
maybe, maybe other, uh,
indirect observations.

840
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:32,720
So for instance, if your mulch
isn't really breaking down,

841
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,200
like you've had mulch on your pots
all through the summertime, and it,

842
00:52:36,370 --> 00:52:40,400
it still looks pretty good at the end
of that season and it's not being broken

843
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,880
down, odds are you could benefit
from more fungal activity.

844
00:52:44,130 --> 00:52:46,440
So maybe when you go to
brew that compost tea,

845
00:52:46,540 --> 00:52:50,040
you are adding more fungal foods
rather than bacterial foods.

846
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,520
So bacterial foods are simple sugars,
things like molasses and, and honey,

847
00:52:55,090 --> 00:52:56,360
um, where the,

848
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,120
the fungal f foods are going
to be more complex sugars.

849
00:53:01,550 --> 00:53:05,770
All right. So let's,
let's talk more about, um,

850
00:53:05,770 --> 00:53:10,170
the compost tea as the
nutrition for the rhizosphere.

851
00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:14,570
Um, uh, and and less of it as, um,

852
00:53:14,570 --> 00:53:17,730
using mineral amendments.
So if we want, if we're,

853
00:53:17,730 --> 00:53:22,530
if we're going to be putting the
compost tea into the soil at the begin,

854
00:53:22,530 --> 00:53:24,850
like let's call it late fall, um,

855
00:53:25,050 --> 00:53:27,920
is the idea that we want to, we're,

856
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,440
we're essentially trying to add, um,

857
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,350
microbe life to the soil via the

858
00:53:37,350 --> 00:53:41,910
compost tea that, um, that then the

859
00:53:43,590 --> 00:53:48,560
larger microbe life that's in the
container will then be eating.

860
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:49,640
So essentially we're,

861
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,960
we're pouring compost tea filled
with smaller life that the predators

862
00:53:54,310 --> 00:53:58,360
that would be normally getting its
food from the plant will then be eating

863
00:53:59,220 --> 00:54:02,840
all the life forms that are in the compost
tea is, is, is that what we're doing?

864
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,880
We're, we're, we're trying to, um,

865
00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:10,520
sustain this predator prey relationship,
um, throughout the winter. Yeah, yeah.

866
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,040
Yeah. That's a good way to look
at it, is like you're providing,

867
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:18,200
providing prey organisms to
nematodes and protozoa the,

868
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,320
the predators in the soil,

869
00:54:20,020 --> 00:54:24,800
and you're also providing
that packed lunch. So, um,

870
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:25,240
like the,

871
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:29,360
the foods that you're adding
to your compost tea are
going to end up in the soil

872
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:30,440
once you apply it,

873
00:54:30,620 --> 00:54:34,840
and not just feeding the organisms
that were in the tea brewer,

874
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,440
but now they're available to the
organisms that are existing in the

875
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,440
container. Mm-hmm.

876
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,760
<Affirmative>. Um, and, and at this
time of year, um, I know we're,

877
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,880
we're both fans of Brooded
tea and also extracts,

878
00:54:48,020 --> 00:54:52,920
but this time of year we actually want
to do a brewed tea because we want

879
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,080
to, um,

880
00:54:54,570 --> 00:54:59,120
we want to increase the density
of the microbe life because we,

881
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,560
we want to offer lots of options of,

882
00:55:02,930 --> 00:55:07,600
of varieties of microbe life
that's gonna be in the compost tea,

883
00:55:07,660 --> 00:55:11,360
but we also want it to be very dense
because we want it to last throughout the

884
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:12,193
winter, right?

885
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:14,120
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yes, I think,

886
00:55:14,590 --> 00:55:17,600
I think teas are the way to go
in the winter and look, you,

887
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,280
it's not that you're doing anything
wrong if you do an extract. So, um,

888
00:55:21,780 --> 00:55:25,520
the extract just doesn't have
the added benefit of, uh,

889
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,360
the increase in microbial activity,

890
00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:31,120
nor does it have the microbial foods,

891
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:35,080
both of which can be of benefit
going into this more dormant period.

892
00:55:35,230 --> 00:55:39,640
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So obviously
if we, if we've got a microscope or,

893
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,520
or if we have the access to someone like
you who does microcopy for other folks,

894
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,280
you know, for a living, um,

895
00:55:46,750 --> 00:55:51,520
that is one great way to know
how we want to build our fall

896
00:55:52,130 --> 00:55:55,720
brooded compost, because you
can like, literally look what,

897
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:59,640
and see who's in the soil and see who's
there that you want to feed, and then,

898
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:04,240
and then who you might wanna add to
the soil to tie in of ro round out

899
00:56:04,340 --> 00:56:07,800
the, the predator prey
relationship. But honestly,

900
00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:13,200
most folks who don't have a cannabis

901
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,200
growing business who are just
home growers, um, they're,

902
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,120
they're probably not gonna do that.
And so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, can you,

903
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,880
can you give some advice or, or, uh, some,

904
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:26,400
some mental structure to what the
rest of us should do to, like,

905
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,160
what would you recommend to
have in our brewed tea at, for,

906
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,120
for fall? Um, when we don't
exactly know what's in our soil,

907
00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:41,040
but we, we wanna give it kind of a,
a, a general buffet so that, so that,

908
00:56:41,850 --> 00:56:45,640
um, we can do the best we
can without exact knowledge.

909
00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:48,460
Yeah. I think the,

910
00:56:48,460 --> 00:56:52,980
the biggest thing to be aware of
is that what we don't want to do

911
00:56:53,310 --> 00:56:58,260
is be brewing a bunch of bacteria and

912
00:56:58,260 --> 00:56:59,580
putting that on our soils.

913
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,380
And I say that because a really
common characteristic of a disturbed

914
00:57:05,050 --> 00:57:08,260
e soil ecosystem is that
it's very bacteria dominant.

915
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,420
And when it comes to cannabis, um,

916
00:57:11,830 --> 00:57:16,100
we want a little more balance between
our bacteria and, and fungi ratio,

917
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:20,820
uh, instead of it being entirely
bacteria dominant. So in general,

918
00:57:21,300 --> 00:57:24,660
fungi is more sensitive to, um,

919
00:57:25,010 --> 00:57:27,180
mechanical disturbance, certainly.

920
00:57:27,350 --> 00:57:31,340
So anytime we dump our containers or, uh,

921
00:57:31,410 --> 00:57:36,180
turn them in any kind of way, uh, or
they're exposed for long periods of time,

922
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:40,300
we will expect to lose some
kind of fungal biomass, but not,

923
00:57:40,300 --> 00:57:45,100
but we'll actually see an
increase in bacterial biomass.

924
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,740
And the reason for that is that the
bacteria start feeding on the, uh,

925
00:57:48,740 --> 00:57:50,100
fungi that are dying off,

926
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,860
and they kind of have a little party
all to themselves to increase their

927
00:57:53,860 --> 00:57:55,860
numbers. And so that,

928
00:57:55,860 --> 00:57:59,940
that's one balance that we wanna be
really careful about when we're making our

929
00:57:59,940 --> 00:58:03,140
own amendments. And,
and we don't have, uh,

930
00:58:03,140 --> 00:58:08,100
the tools to really look at a drop
of that t under the microscope and

931
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:12,740
see, uh, whether or not we, we've just
got a bunch of bacteria, no predators.

932
00:58:12,740 --> 00:58:16,620
That would be the worst case
scenario. Um, or if we're,

933
00:58:16,710 --> 00:58:19,420
if we're brewing something
that's a little more balanced.

934
00:58:19,790 --> 00:58:24,100
So one thing that I'd encourage
people to do is create a,

935
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:28,660
what I would call a protozoan,
uh, infusion. This is, uh,

936
00:58:28,660 --> 00:58:32,860
a method that I've learned from the
soil food web by Dr. Elaine Ingham.

937
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,140
And you, you take, uh,
healthy leaves and, uh,

938
00:58:38,140 --> 00:58:42,700
different kind of vegetation and
put them down in a bucket with, uh,

939
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:45,940
kind of something to weight
them on top like a rock. Um,

940
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,860
and you can add just the tiniest
bit, like a drop of honey,

941
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,860
and that's actually going to encourage
some bacterial growth. But what,

942
00:58:55,950 --> 00:59:00,940
um, occurs in tandem with that is
a prodi, the, the predators will,

943
00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:05,540
um, respond to that increase in,
uh, the bacterial population.

944
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:10,780
And so, um, there, I, if I was
doing this without a microscope,

945
00:59:11,310 --> 00:59:12,143
uh, I would,

946
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:16,940
I would go online and do some research
and see if you can find the best

947
00:59:17,010 --> 00:59:20,860
time to use that kind of, um, brew,

948
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,160
because there's going to be a,
a peak period after you've, uh,

949
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,440
encouraged the bacterial growth that
the protozoa will have had a chance to

950
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:30,080
respond to that.

951
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:34,800
And then you can use that as a useful
way to introduce predators into

952
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,160
your ecosystem. Um, that's
one thing that comes to mind.

953
00:59:39,710 --> 00:59:43,960
A couple others are to just
focus more heavily on your

954
00:59:44,270 --> 00:59:49,080
fungal foods and go, go really
light little to no bacterial foods,

955
00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:53,840
um, as, as you're preparing, uh,
your compost teas. So again, you can,

956
00:59:54,130 --> 00:59:57,880
um, find some guidance
online. But, uh, in general,

957
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:03,040
humic and fulvic acids are
really useful for feeding fungi

958
01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:08,360
as our, uh, fish hydrolysate. And
there's, there's some others online that,

959
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,240
uh, I've, I've yet to try, but
I'm sure are just as viable.

960
01:00:12,190 --> 01:00:13,840
I really like this, um,

961
01:00:14,430 --> 01:00:17,720
protozoa incubation technique that you
just described. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

962
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,280
I've not, I've not come
across that. Um, and,

963
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:24,360
and I like the idea that I don't have to

964
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:28,320
just make food available
and hope for the best,

965
01:00:28,380 --> 01:00:32,920
but that I can actually incubate
protozoa and make more of them,

966
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,520
and then pour them into the
container. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

967
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,200
this sounds like something
that I would want to do,

968
01:00:37,790 --> 01:00:40,080
like anytime I'd want
to do it in the spring,

969
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:43,200
I'd wanna do it like before flour, when,

970
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,080
when the plants are working the hardest,
and then, and then again at, at,

971
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:48,200
at fall to keep every,

972
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,480
it seems like it's a good thing
for all through the season.

973
01:00:50,830 --> 01:00:52,120
Yeah, certainly. Uh,

974
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,840
and I think anytime that you
really need a nutrient boost,

975
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,320
that's when I'd focus the most
on your predators, because that,

976
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,560
that's who's doing that job for
you by feeding on the bacteria,

977
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,200
they're cycling nutrients to
your plant. So, um, I think the,

978
01:01:06,460 --> 01:01:10,120
the times and the growth cycle that
you pointed out are, are dead on.

979
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:12,680
Interesting. Okay. So, um,

980
01:01:12,690 --> 01:01:16,600
another thing that you mentioned when
we started talking about like, you know,

981
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:21,200
best amendments for pre pre winter,
um, you were talking about innoculants.

982
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,760
So would you consider
this an inoculate or,

983
01:01:24,850 --> 01:01:28,240
or how are you using that word? What
do you think of as a, as an inoculate?

984
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:29,073
Because in my head,

985
01:01:29,350 --> 01:01:33,280
this may be inoculating
my soil with protozoa,

986
01:01:33,420 --> 01:01:37,200
but I may not be using that, um,
word in the proper scientific way.

987
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:41,680
Yes. I think in the case of
the pro protozoa infusion,

988
01:01:42,110 --> 01:01:44,960
that's certainly an inoculation technique.

989
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:49,960
You're trying to introduce a specific
organism or group of organisms into

990
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,800
the soil. That's how I
would define inoculation.

991
01:01:54,220 --> 01:01:59,160
And when I mentioned earlier that I
wouldn't be so focused on that, again,

992
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,520
it's not that inoculation isn't
happening with your compost tea.

993
01:02:02,590 --> 01:02:07,440
It's more that your focus
and intention, and again,

994
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,200
relationship with what you're doing is
thinking more critically about the foods

995
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:17,200
you're putting into that tea rather than
what you're necessarily growing and,

996
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:22,120
and, um, growing in population in
that tea. So in the springtime,

997
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,920
I'd be much more focused on looking
at the samples from my compost tea and

998
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,600
making sure I know how much
fungi is in there because if I,

999
01:02:29,740 --> 01:02:33,440
and how much protozoa and, and
et cetera are in there, um,

1000
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,360
because that would matter more
to me come springtime, uh,

1001
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,040
due to all the nutrients cycling that
I'm going to rely on for my plant growth.

1002
01:02:40,220 --> 01:02:42,000
But in the wintertime,

1003
01:02:42,260 --> 01:02:47,120
I'm more concerned about feeding
the microorganisms below ground and

1004
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,080
less concerned about what they're going
to do for my plant because my plant's no

1005
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:51,520
longer there.

1006
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,440
Right on. Um, great. All right. So then,

1007
01:02:55,050 --> 01:02:59,000
so we've talked about the, the,
the mineral type amendments.

1008
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,240
We've talked about
adding, uh, complex, uh,

1009
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:07,200
brewed compost teas so that
we're, there's a, uh, an array,

1010
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:12,000
a buffet of foods for our lifeforms in the

1011
01:03:12,470 --> 01:03:15,680
soil, since they're not gonna be
getting it from the plant. And then,

1012
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,160
and then this delightful
protozoic infusion, which I like,

1013
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,080
wanna make one immediately
<laugh>, um, do it. And so,

1014
01:03:22,090 --> 01:03:26,600
so the last category that I
want to talk about are, um, uh,

1015
01:03:27,070 --> 01:03:30,720
what kind of a role at this
point would you think that, um,

1016
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,840
natural farming fermentations, like,
you know, everybody's talking about, um,

1017
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,360
Korean natural farming and, you
know, uh, fermented plant juices,

1018
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,720
things like this that, that we are making,

1019
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,800
which are in a way, um,
kind of like incubated, um,

1020
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,240
nutrition. And in some of them, even
incubated like hormones. If we're,

1021
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:56,000
if we're gonna be using, um, you know,
like a fresh grown tips from that we,

1022
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:00,640
that we harvested in the spring or
something, like, part of me thinks, oh,

1023
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,840
I should add some of that
stuff in the fall to,

1024
01:04:03,970 --> 01:04:07,040
to keep some of that zesty
life force in the soil.

1025
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:12,000
But some of it is also me
thinking it that's adding

1026
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,320
the wrong kind of encouragement
at the wrong time of the season,

1027
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,960
that that's more of a spring thing. And,

1028
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:23,960
and I might not want to be using
those types of ferments as a,

1029
01:04:24,570 --> 01:04:24,920
um,

1030
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:29,840
going into fall root drench or
something like that at this time of

1031
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:30,840
year. So is, is there,

1032
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,720
is there any role for that kind
of a incubated fermentation?

1033
01:04:36,430 --> 01:04:40,840
I think you're, you're on the right
track with that. Like, I wouldn't,

1034
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,080
again, I,

1035
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:47,960
I don't think that there's anything that
would go wrong necessarily by adding,

1036
01:04:48,490 --> 01:04:52,600
uh, those fermented plant, is it
fermented plant juice that they call that?

1037
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,760
Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Um, and, and just to be clear,

1038
01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:00,080
I'm not fully up to speed on K and f
methodologies. I'm fascinated by them.

1039
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,240
And I think there's a lot of, um,

1040
01:05:02,670 --> 01:05:07,040
things in common in terms of what,
what we're interested in doing,

1041
01:05:07,330 --> 01:05:12,120
uh, from a biological perspective, whether
you come from the, the K and F side,

1042
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:16,920
the soil food side, or, you know,
there's, there's any number. Um, even if,

1043
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,320
if you're like, really focused on mic,

1044
01:05:18,550 --> 01:05:23,480
like we're all kind of generally
interested in, in similar things.

1045
01:05:23,860 --> 01:05:28,120
And so, um, I think with the, what,

1046
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,320
what I know about the
fermented plant juice approach,

1047
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,560
being more focused on those
plant boosting signals,

1048
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:36,103
that,

1049
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:40,800
that would make the most sense to me in
the context of the growth cycle when you

1050
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,480
need that kind of activity.
So it, again, it's,

1051
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,120
it's not that you're doing, you'd
be doing much harm. It's more like,

1052
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,600
are you spending your time and energy
producing a thing that's going to

1053
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:57,360
actually, uh, help the soil at
this current state that it's in?

1054
01:05:57,460 --> 01:06:00,600
And I don't know that that would be the
best use of your time is focusing on,

1055
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,080
on those types of amendments.

1056
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,600
Right. On that, that well said. And
that also discourages me because, um,

1057
01:06:06,910 --> 01:06:10,160
I, I have been hanging out with other
folks and we've been talking about it,

1058
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,320
and it's not uncommon for
me to hear people say, well,

1059
01:06:12,990 --> 01:06:16,000
I had some extra f PJ in the fall,

1060
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,800
and so I just put it on the
pots mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And,

1061
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,400
and that might actually,

1062
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,080
it might be better to waste
it or hold it for the spring

1063
01:06:26,330 --> 01:06:31,160
instead of throwing it on the pots and
kind of confusing the system at that

1064
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:31,670
point.

1065
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:35,160
Yeah. Because it, it could, I, I don't
know. I imagine that it could, uh,

1066
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:36,960
confuse the system. Uh,

1067
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:41,440
if the microorganisms
are receiving these, um,

1068
01:06:41,740 --> 01:06:43,640
you know, chemical signals, uh,

1069
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,440
from that were derived from a
plant that was actively growing,

1070
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,720
but they're not actu that they're not
actually supporting an actively growing

1071
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:55,600
plant, then it might kind of,
uh, be unnecessary. And, um,

1072
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,520
you know, it's, it's hard to know
what's really going on, you know,

1073
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:03,200
without digging into some
academic research if it's
even been done on this kind

1074
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,400
of stuff. But I think if
you can preserve that, uh,

1075
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:12,000
amendment and save it for spring,
that would be a much better use of,

1076
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:13,000
of that amendment.

1077
01:07:13,730 --> 01:07:17,320
Um, this is totally conjecture, but
it could totally be the case that, um,

1078
01:07:17,380 --> 01:07:22,240
the microbe life, um, becomes
aware of those chemical signals,

1079
01:07:22,460 --> 01:07:26,640
and then they think that, oh,
there must be a plant around. Sure.

1080
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,200
And so then they start looking
for exudates. And when,

1081
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,720
when we don't want them
looking for exudates. Exactly.

1082
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:35,200
We want them focusing on
eating other, other, you know,

1083
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,800
predator prey relationship
life forms. It's like,

1084
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,000
it's like when you go past somewhere
and you smell somebody's barbecue,

1085
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:42,960
but it's like, you're not,
it's not your barbecue,

1086
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,200
so you're not getting barbecue and now
you're like, just hungry and annoyed.

1087
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:47,080
Uhhuh <affirmative>, uhhuh.

1088
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:48,280
<Affirmative>. Yeah. Uhhuh
<affirmative> right now.

1089
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,720
Now you have to go outta your
way to go find barbecue. Yeah.

1090
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:55,320
Yeah. <laugh>. All right. So, so let's,
let's move on to, uh, top dress mulches.

1091
01:07:55,730 --> 01:07:58,240
So, um, uh,

1092
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:02,800
there are different mulches
with different goals,

1093
01:08:03,300 --> 01:08:07,640
and to my best understanding, um, the,

1094
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:12,640
the two big reasons we use
them are number one, to, uh,

1095
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,000
create some kind of warmth at the,

1096
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:19,440
the top of the container
or on our field, um,

1097
01:08:19,470 --> 01:08:21,560
over the winter. And then,

1098
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,720
and then also that as it breaks down,

1099
01:08:26,130 --> 01:08:27,200
it is, uh,

1100
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:32,440
biologically active and kind of like a
slow drip of interesting nutrition into

1101
01:08:32,440 --> 01:08:35,720
the soil. Um, would you
agree with both of those?

1102
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,720
And would you add anything to that list?

1103
01:08:39,700 --> 01:08:44,630
I, I think I would use the
word insulation. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, like, I, I,

1104
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:45,270
you know, it's,

1105
01:08:45,270 --> 01:08:50,030
it's really creating a barrier
between the environment,

1106
01:08:50,300 --> 01:08:54,550
like the ambient temperatures and the soil

1107
01:08:54,900 --> 01:08:59,630
atmosphere or soil sphere, the,
the root zone. Um, and then,

1108
01:08:59,630 --> 01:09:04,170
yeah, it's creating biologically
active. I'm, uh, I feel like,

1109
01:09:04,580 --> 01:09:07,570
um, we might get into it, but to
answer your question directly,

1110
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,210
I wouldn't add anything to
that list at this time. Mm-hmm.

1111
01:09:10,250 --> 01:09:12,250
<Affirmative>, um, uh,

1112
01:09:12,970 --> 01:09:16,370
we're gonna talk about cover
crops, you know, when we,

1113
01:09:16,370 --> 01:09:20,610
when we segue to the next topic. So
this time I'm talking more about,

1114
01:09:21,180 --> 01:09:25,810
um, I guess I'll say not
actively living plants. And so,

1115
01:09:26,060 --> 01:09:26,680
um,

1116
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:31,610
what are some of your
favorite over winter mulches?

1117
01:09:33,090 --> 01:09:37,190
One word and that's aged.
I just want aged mulch.

1118
01:09:37,770 --> 01:09:42,590
And if I can find mulch that is from my

1119
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:47,510
region, uh, as locally as possible,
that's ideal because in theory,

1120
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,950
uh, they, those, um, indigenous.

1121
01:09:52,090 --> 01:09:52,950
Microorganisms.

1122
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:55,270
Yeah, indigenous microorganisms.
Thank you. Yeah. They'll, they'll,

1123
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:59,270
they'll have the, the organisms
that can survive your, uh,

1124
01:09:59,270 --> 01:10:03,230
your local environment, um, col
just colonized on their surfaces.

1125
01:10:03,730 --> 01:10:07,270
And I say aged because, uh,

1126
01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:08,950
the younger the mulch,

1127
01:10:08,970 --> 01:10:12,710
the more resistant it actually
is to microbial activity,

1128
01:10:12,710 --> 01:10:15,910
which is not what we want. So,
like in the landscaping industry,

1129
01:10:15,910 --> 01:10:19,550
it's really common to
use very young mulch, um,

1130
01:10:19,550 --> 01:10:24,190
to use cedar mulches or other mulches
that have a lot of secondary metabolites

1131
01:10:24,190 --> 01:10:28,750
that deter breakdown. And
that's for aesthetic reasons.

1132
01:10:28,750 --> 01:10:31,350
But of course, here in, uh, cannabis,

1133
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:36,110
we want to actually be feeding the
soil with our mulch. So the more aged,

1134
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,190
uh, generally the better.
I'd say that at minimum,

1135
01:10:39,190 --> 01:10:42,150
you'd want that mulch to have been, uh,

1136
01:10:42,220 --> 01:10:46,470
kind of sitting somewhere
as wood chips for a minimum

1137
01:10:46,980 --> 01:10:49,270
a year, um, ideally longer.

1138
01:10:50,010 --> 01:10:52,390
All right. So I, I like
that, you know, you,

1139
01:10:52,390 --> 01:10:55,470
you kind of just systemically over
the top said whatever your mulch is,

1140
01:10:55,470 --> 01:10:57,630
we want it to be old, which I like,

1141
01:10:57,630 --> 01:11:02,470
because we all have access to
different things depending on our bio

1142
01:11:02,470 --> 01:11:06,510
region, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
And so, so you want to use wood chips,

1143
01:11:06,660 --> 01:11:11,230
fine. We want 'em to be old, though.
You want to use forest duff fine.

1144
01:11:11,230 --> 01:11:14,760
We want it to be aged forest duff. You
want want to use old grass clippings,

1145
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:17,160
fine. But we want them to be old.

1146
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:21,880
So the i the idea is what whatever
that you've got, um, is usable,

1147
01:11:22,350 --> 01:11:27,280
just make sure that it's matured
enough so that it breaks down properly.

1148
01:11:28,030 --> 01:11:32,800
Yeah. And I think in the case of things
that might break down faster than

1149
01:11:33,230 --> 01:11:36,440
wood derived or, or lignin, um,

1150
01:11:36,480 --> 01:11:39,720
based materials, so as you mentioned,

1151
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:44,600
the grass clippings like
that, you wouldn't want those
to be aged a year at all.

1152
01:11:45,010 --> 01:11:48,640
Um, I think you could,
you could, uh, with,

1153
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:53,480
with something like grasses or any kind
of like vegetative biomass that you, uh,

1154
01:11:53,550 --> 01:11:57,240
chop down and kind of, I, I've seen
people do this with like flail mowers,

1155
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:01,200
the chop and drop method mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, I think that's viable, um,

1156
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,440
to just set it and leave it. It's,

1157
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:07,160
it's better than removing a lot
of that material if it's already,

1158
01:12:07,170 --> 01:12:11,280
if it's already in place. Like if it's
in C2 and you are chopping and dropping,

1159
01:12:11,550 --> 01:12:13,320
I think that's totally appropriate,

1160
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:17,520
rather than the disturbance that would
be caused if you were to remove that

1161
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,800
material and try to age it
somewhere else. Now you,

1162
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,080
you might decide to actually
compost that material.

1163
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:27,520
And that's a whole other thing. But as
far as a mulch purpose goes, I think, uh,

1164
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,520
chop and drop method is, uh, just as well.

1165
01:12:30,860 --> 01:12:35,550
When I have heard people talk about
them using mulch to keep their

1166
01:12:35,550 --> 01:12:40,110
containers, uh, warm over
the, over the winter. Um,

1167
01:12:40,110 --> 01:12:42,630
it's funny, uh, you mentioned
earlier that it's, it's,

1168
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:47,470
it's used like hy as an insulator, and
I'm like, oh, that makes sense too.

1169
01:12:47,470 --> 01:12:50,870
But I always thought that the reason
we are using it to air quotes,

1170
01:12:50,870 --> 01:12:55,390
keep our pots warm is because
the mulch, as it rots,

1171
01:12:55,660 --> 01:12:59,590
it's, um, it's warm, right. You
know, like a warm compost pile.

1172
01:12:59,690 --> 01:13:03,710
And I actually thought that
it was, that as it broke down,

1173
01:13:03,710 --> 01:13:07,870
it was creating a warmth, like a heat
source at the top of the pot. Mm-hmm.

1174
01:13:07,870 --> 01:13:12,350
And now I'm understanding that it's
really more about like being a,

1175
01:13:12,420 --> 01:13:15,750
like a, a, a band-aid,
if you will, on the,

1176
01:13:15,750 --> 01:13:20,230
on the wound where you removed the plant
and you're kind of like sealing it up.

1177
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:25,350
Um, what, at what point is it too
much of a good thing? Because in the,

1178
01:13:25,350 --> 01:13:28,150
in the first set you were
talking about, um, we,

1179
01:13:28,150 --> 01:13:32,230
we don't want to over seal
our mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh,

1180
01:13:32,230 --> 01:13:34,630
the tops of our pots, right? And so we,

1181
01:13:34,630 --> 01:13:37,870
we want to be able to engage with the,

1182
01:13:38,570 --> 01:13:43,550
the atmosphere and the rain and
the air to some degree, but,

1183
01:13:43,610 --> 01:13:48,590
but we also want there to be like
a nice thick layer. So will you,

1184
01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:51,110
will you speak to, I guess, uh,

1185
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:56,070
the thickness of the layer
and what kind of attributes

1186
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:01,430
we want our mulch to have so
that things like water and

1187
01:14:01,430 --> 01:14:03,910
air can go through it, kind
of talk to us about what,

1188
01:14:04,020 --> 01:14:08,470
what the attributes of a good mulch are
so that when we look at what we have

1189
01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:12,120
available to us, where we
live, we can judge our mulches.

1190
01:14:13,030 --> 01:14:14,600
Okay, great. Okay.

1191
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:19,560
So the first thing that comes to
mind is the size of that material.

1192
01:14:20,130 --> 01:14:22,880
So if it's too large, it,

1193
01:14:22,930 --> 01:14:27,440
it doesn't provide as much
protection. You might have large gaps,

1194
01:14:27,700 --> 01:14:29,280
for instance, um,

1195
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:33,880
I'm thinking of like maybe something
that's like really thick straw, but you,

1196
01:14:34,590 --> 01:14:38,360
it's, it's not very finely
chopped. And you, you'd have, um,

1197
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:42,680
you'd have to put a little bit more of
that material layered in order to really

1198
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:44,640
effectively mulch a space. Mm-hmm.

1199
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:45,513
<Affirmative>.

1200
01:14:45,770 --> 01:14:50,000
Um, and then there's also,
um, the, the fact that like,

1201
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:54,520
you want this breaking down, so like
the thicker that material is, um, if,

1202
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,920
if it's really chunky wood chips, for
example, even if they've been aged,

1203
01:14:59,330 --> 01:15:03,120
um, that might not be optimal.
You might want them to be,

1204
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:06,920
I'm just kind of eyeballing, uh, things
around the room right now, but maybe,

1205
01:15:07,370 --> 01:15:07,900
uh,

1206
01:15:07,900 --> 01:15:12,880
two inches long by half
an inch wide would be

1207
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:17,400
like the north star and, you know,
give or take an inch on either side.

1208
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:22,280
But the, the point is, you don't want,
um, bark essentially like, uh, four,

1209
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:26,040
four inches long by three inches wide,
would probably be getting, uh, too,

1210
01:15:26,060 --> 01:15:30,160
too large for the kind of mulch
that we're interested in here. Um,

1211
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:34,400
also avoiding hydrophobic conditions.

1212
01:15:34,730 --> 01:15:39,200
So this still applies even when
you're mulching. So we, it,

1213
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:43,720
it's kind of ironic because you mulch a
soil surface to try to avoid evaporation

1214
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,760
loss as well. Maybe that's one
that we can add to, uh, the, the,

1215
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:49,040
the reasons for mulching mm-hmm.

1216
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,800
<affirmative> is to avoid evaporation
loss from the soil surface, um,

1217
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:54,400
among the other two,

1218
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:59,160
which was insulation and keeping things
biologically active. But, uh, the,

1219
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:03,440
the mulch layer itself can actually go
hydrophobic if you really neglect it. So,

1220
01:16:03,810 --> 01:16:07,560
uh, making sure that it, it is
getting some amount of moisture,

1221
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:12,280
so if there aren't any rains or any
precipitation that there actually getting,

1222
01:16:12,690 --> 01:16:17,600
uh, watered in some way because the,
they really mulch layers really can,

1223
01:16:17,730 --> 01:16:21,760
um, com compact similar to soil, um, and,

1224
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:26,320
and provide a hydrophobic surface,
uh, which can become problematic.

1225
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:31,860
And then, um, let's see,
other features in mulch,

1226
01:16:31,860 --> 01:16:32,380
those are,

1227
01:16:32,380 --> 01:16:35,980
those are the two that are coming to
mind [inaudible] So I'll kind of turn it

1228
01:16:35,980 --> 01:16:37,900
over to you and see if you
have any questions about that.

1229
01:16:38,010 --> 01:16:42,620
I do. Um, I'm getting this picture
hearing you describe how, um, we,

1230
01:16:42,620 --> 01:16:46,380
we don't want it too chunky, but
we don't want it too fine. It,

1231
01:16:46,380 --> 01:16:50,540
it kind of reminds me of, of that,
uh, that old example where, where the,

1232
01:16:50,540 --> 01:16:55,220
the college professor holds up,
uh, a jar with marbles and it says,

1233
01:16:55,220 --> 01:16:59,260
is this, is this full? And everybody
goes, yeah, it's full. And then, and then,

1234
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:04,020
and then he adds, uh, something
smaller than marbles the sand. Yeah.

1235
01:17:04,020 --> 01:17:06,500
And it fits in between. He goes, is
it full? Now? They're all like, yeah.

1236
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,800
And then he adds water, and
you're like, oh. So, so I,

1237
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,000
I'm kind of thinking
that a blended mulch is,

1238
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:18,000
is probably going to be our best
practice where perhaps you have, um,

1239
01:17:18,030 --> 01:17:22,800
some semi chunky things that are
age wood chips and then some,

1240
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,720
and then some smaller things that
maybe is forest duff and leaf litter,

1241
01:17:28,060 --> 01:17:31,320
and then maybe, um, you
know, something else like a,

1242
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,680
like a powdered biomass. And
so that when you put the,

1243
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:36,880
when you put it all together, um,

1244
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:41,720
in a ratio that that looks
good to you, you have, you,

1245
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:42,760
you have some of each,

1246
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:47,480
you can kind of blend those in a way
where there is enough room for airflow

1247
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:52,240
and for water to get in. And
it's not a sealed thing, but,

1248
01:17:52,290 --> 01:17:52,640
um,

1249
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:57,360
but it's by blending two or
three mulch things together

1250
01:17:57,430 --> 01:18:00,960
that you actually come up with
the optimum mulch for mm-hmm.

1251
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:01,833
<affirmative> where you live.

1252
01:18:02,270 --> 01:18:06,800
I like that. I like that because it
hearkens back to variability, you know,

1253
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:11,680
supporting biodiversity. So I
think that's definitely, again, I,

1254
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,320
I think of these things as
either good, better, or best,

1255
01:18:14,370 --> 01:18:17,480
or having a north star
and just aiming for that.

1256
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:21,120
Don't beat yourself up if you
can't get your hands on, you know,

1257
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:26,000
four different feed stocks
for your magical mulch,
concoction, <laugh>. But, um,

1258
01:18:26,180 --> 01:18:29,680
but the, the more variability,
the, the better in general,

1259
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:32,400
and that that does apply to the,

1260
01:18:32,500 --> 01:18:37,040
the size and the source
of the mulch. Yeah.

1261
01:18:37,260 --> 01:18:40,080
All right. So before we go
on to cover crop, let's,

1262
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,160
let's talk about what I did
this year. Um, uh, get a little,

1263
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,160
get a little free consulting on yet
mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so what I,

1264
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,520
I did something, I thought about it a
little, but I didn't think of it a lot.

1265
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:54,400
And I probably should have waited until
after, um, we recorded this episode,

1266
01:18:54,420 --> 01:18:58,400
but I had access to a whole lot of, um,

1267
01:18:59,370 --> 01:19:03,830
um, C B D hemp biomass this year, where,

1268
01:19:03,830 --> 01:19:07,150
where they just take the
whole plant and they, um,

1269
01:19:07,540 --> 01:19:10,830
they essentially wood shipped
the whole thing together. I,

1270
01:19:10,830 --> 01:19:15,030
I don't know why they did this exactly,
but, um, they had it, and, and they,

1271
01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:19,070
they offered it to me for free, and I
said, great. So, so I'll take it and,

1272
01:19:19,070 --> 01:19:21,710
and I'll figure out some kind of
fertilizer for it or something.

1273
01:19:22,210 --> 01:19:25,030
But then I noticed that, um, you know,

1274
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:29,750
I didn't have anything set aside to mulch
the top of my pots going into a fall.

1275
01:19:30,170 --> 01:19:32,550
And so I put about, um,

1276
01:19:32,550 --> 01:19:35,910
an inch layer of this, uh,

1277
01:19:35,910 --> 01:19:37,590
pretty finely powdered,

1278
01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:41,010
essentially chewed up cannabis,

1279
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:43,650
like hemp plants mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

1280
01:19:43,650 --> 01:19:47,730
and I just put like an inch layer on
there because in my thoughts were, um,

1281
01:19:47,730 --> 01:19:52,610
it would, it would insulate it, it
would let the water through, um,

1282
01:19:52,740 --> 01:19:55,090
if there's any snow that we get this year,

1283
01:19:55,090 --> 01:19:58,450
it'll protect the soil
from that cold shock.

1284
01:19:58,870 --> 01:20:03,170
And then as it rotted. Oh, and, and
this was, this was aged, this is this,

1285
01:20:03,170 --> 01:20:06,450
this material was probably about
three years old. Okay. And, and so,

1286
01:20:06,510 --> 01:20:11,360
and so a as it breaks down, since
I already know it's a hemp plant,

1287
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,800
it's probably gonna be packed with the
nutrition that my plants want next year.

1288
01:20:16,260 --> 01:20:20,840
And so, so great. Um, except for
the fact that it wasn't, you know,

1289
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,520
from my island. And so the,
the, the IMOs won't be accurate.

1290
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:26,640
I thought that it was
gonna be pretty good,

1291
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:31,320
but now I'm starting to think
that because it was, I put a,

1292
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:36,040
an inch of fine granular
powder on top that it might

1293
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:40,920
actually get wet and kind of like push
together and actually create an oxygen

1294
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:45,200
seal. And I might actually want to like,
remove that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

1295
01:20:45,270 --> 01:20:46,400
what are your thoughts?

1296
01:20:46,590 --> 01:20:48,400
Well, there's so much there. Okay.

1297
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,600
I'm like writing down notes as you
were talking <laugh> about that.

1298
01:20:51,650 --> 01:20:53,600
So the first thing that comes to mind,

1299
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:57,520
and I just wanna mention it in case
it applies to anyone listening,

1300
01:20:57,850 --> 01:21:01,920
is that this material, um, it sound,

1301
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:03,720
but until you said that it had been aged,

1302
01:21:04,010 --> 01:21:09,000
my original concern was that it would
still have a lot of nitrogen in it mm-hmm.

1303
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:10,720
<affirmative>. And, uh, that,

1304
01:21:11,110 --> 01:21:15,640
that's just of concern because it
would start actively decomposing

1305
01:21:15,810 --> 01:21:18,000
or composting really, um,

1306
01:21:18,010 --> 01:21:22,360
on top of the soil and generating heat.

1307
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:26,240
So when you were talking about earlier
your perception of mulch actually

1308
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,240
creating heat, the only time that that,

1309
01:21:30,510 --> 01:21:34,080
that I would expect to see
that happening is if the,

1310
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,680
the material that you're mulching with
has a high nitrogen content, and it,

1311
01:21:37,700 --> 01:21:42,240
and effectively what's happening is it's
being broken down by a lot of bacteria.

1312
01:21:42,340 --> 01:21:45,480
And so you're having a bacterial bloom,
and that's what's generating the heat.

1313
01:21:45,860 --> 01:21:48,640
And going back to what we talked
about earlier, you don't want,

1314
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:52,800
that's not necessarily in
the best interest of our
plants. Right? And in fact,

1315
01:21:52,930 --> 01:21:57,160
um, in a really worse
case scenario, if you had,

1316
01:21:57,410 --> 01:22:02,160
if you use a high nitrogen
mulch, uh, product too thick,

1317
01:22:02,260 --> 01:22:06,880
you could actually create a little
anaerobic environment and have, um, again,

1318
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:07,960
very worse case scenario,

1319
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:11,600
you could have like a combustion
issue crop up because, um,

1320
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,480
what happens in an anaerobic
environment is a lot of those,

1321
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:18,080
those microbes are
generating alcohols and, uh,

1322
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:22,920
compounds that will, once oxygen
does get back into that system,

1323
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:26,880
can become flammable at certain
temperatures. So, um, so again,

1324
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:30,920
just like kind of using a north star and
a south star, if you will, <laugh>, um,

1325
01:22:31,510 --> 01:22:35,760
that, that would be like just
a word of caution. Uh, don't,

1326
01:22:35,790 --> 01:22:40,600
I wouldn't use high nitrogen
materials as a mulch, um,

1327
01:22:40,870 --> 01:22:44,880
with the exception of that
chop and drop method. Now,

1328
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:49,560
when I say chop and drop, I'm
thinking of it in terms of, um,

1329
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:54,440
green vegetative biomass that
you're dropping on top of a mulch,

1330
01:22:54,690 --> 01:22:58,120
an already wood chipped type of mulch.

1331
01:22:58,290 --> 01:23:02,400
So it's kind of a layered
effect. So you have a carbon, um,

1332
01:23:02,950 --> 01:23:06,520
it's not indirect contact with
the soil. And I think that,

1333
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:10,000
I just wanna clarify that
that would probably be, um,

1334
01:23:10,740 --> 01:23:14,600
not the best case of, of a mulch
situation if you had that, like a,

1335
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:18,560
a high nitrogen vegetative plant
decomposing directly on top of the soil.

1336
01:23:18,780 --> 01:23:21,880
Got it. And that, that hearkens back
to the, the one guide rule you said,

1337
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:24,960
which was aged, you know,
so, yes. Yeah. Yes, I follow.

1338
01:23:25,310 --> 01:23:28,840
Yeah. And so, so yeah, there's
some instances where maybe, um,

1339
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:32,240
maybe you can get away with
it. Yeah. Not being aged,

1340
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:36,840
but just be mindful that
it's not actively, uh,
composting on top of your soil.

1341
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:40,280
And so in this case, you've dealt
with all in theory, you know,

1342
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:41,680
I don't know what happened
during those three years,

1343
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:45,000
but you've dealt with a lot
of the nitrogen in that case.

1344
01:23:45,140 --> 01:23:49,520
And I imagine any kind of resins or
things that would create a hydrophobic,

1345
01:23:50,010 --> 01:23:53,320
um, you know, seal from a,

1346
01:23:53,470 --> 01:23:55,040
a chemical perspective.

1347
01:23:55,340 --> 01:24:00,120
But now the concern is the
fineness of this mulch and

1348
01:24:00,390 --> 01:24:05,320
just like en clay, en clay
soils that, um, become compact,

1349
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:05,640
compacted,

1350
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:10,040
it's all those platelets that line up
really snugly together and create this

1351
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:13,440
seal, um, in, in the soil
and create compaction layers.

1352
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:18,400
And so that might be happening with
a really finely chopped source of

1353
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:22,800
mulch. And in that case,
I think if you've put,

1354
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:25,600
you said you put it on
about one inch. Yeah.

1355
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:26,433
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

1356
01:24:26,830 --> 01:24:30,720
I think you could maybe
gently mix in a chunkier

1357
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:35,960
mulch source instead of, I mean,
and, and, you know, you're,

1358
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:38,960
you're there with all the context
in person, so you, you know,

1359
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:41,720
how bad it is or isn't. But if it's, um,

1360
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:46,560
able to kind of be moved around and a bit,

1361
01:24:46,570 --> 01:24:50,600
if you will, then I would just, I
would just add in some chunkier, um,

1362
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:55,360
mulch and maybe something, um, a little
more carbon rich, but just as aged.

1363
01:24:55,380 --> 01:24:58,800
And, uh, just to add
some of that variability.

1364
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:03,360
Right on. Good. Uh, thank you
for that. Um, uh, as far as, uh,

1365
01:25:03,500 --> 01:25:05,800
how things age, um,

1366
01:25:06,290 --> 01:25:09,720
do things have to be interacting
with the environment to age,

1367
01:25:09,770 --> 01:25:14,400
or does it simply need time to go by?
So, uh, the contrast I'm making is,

1368
01:25:14,730 --> 01:25:18,160
um, somebody who's got a pile of
wood chips in the, in the, you know,

1369
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:22,600
corner of their yard and they're
getting rained on and, uh, you know,

1370
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,600
warmed up by the sun,
and, you know, they are,

1371
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:28,760
they are aging and
breaking down versus, um,

1372
01:25:28,940 --> 01:25:32,840
for example, this, this biomass
that I was referring to that, um,

1373
01:25:33,090 --> 01:25:37,880
it had just been sitting in plastic
bins in a shipping container

1374
01:25:37,970 --> 01:25:40,160
at this hemp farm for three years
mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they're like,

1375
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:42,800
we need space. Will you just take this
stuff and get rid of it? And so I did,

1376
01:25:43,370 --> 01:25:44,203
um,

1377
01:25:44,540 --> 01:25:49,080
can something air quotes
age in a plastic bin not

1378
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:52,160
exposed to the elements.
Um, time is passing,

1379
01:25:52,780 --> 01:25:55,440
but biology may not be happening.

1380
01:25:55,710 --> 01:25:56,543
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

1381
01:25:56,910 --> 01:26:01,080
this would be a matter of moisture mostly.

1382
01:26:01,100 --> 01:26:02,040
And then also,

1383
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:06,760
when was that material
harvested before being mulch?

1384
01:26:07,210 --> 01:26:11,520
So I'll kind of walk you through
my thought process on that. Uh,

1385
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:15,760
the first thing is, whenever it's
harvested, if it's, if it's a green,

1386
01:26:16,170 --> 01:26:19,720
if it's in a green vegetative
state, as opposed to, you know,

1387
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:24,160
an in field ag, you have
a lot of crops that, uh,

1388
01:26:24,230 --> 01:26:27,200
send all their sugars down
out through the roots.

1389
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:31,920
And then the above ground parts of the
plants become this like, you know, uh,

1390
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:36,040
brown <laugh>, like dormant state. Uh,
it's no, no longer photosynthesizing.

1391
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:40,720
It's really no longer living above
ground. So that is a carbon rich source.

1392
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:44,160
And if you were to harvest
thought, um, material, I mean,

1393
01:26:44,270 --> 01:26:46,600
I assume this would happen with
a cannabis plant, right? Yeah.

1394
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:49,240
You could just leave it in the, I don't
think people really often do this,

1395
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:52,520
but if you left it in the ground or
left it in your container and let it die

1396
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:56,640
back, and then you come and
chop it and mulch it, that is,

1397
01:26:56,790 --> 01:27:01,200
that is going to be more carbon
rich and far less of concern

1398
01:27:01,350 --> 01:27:04,440
from the nitrogen perspective that we
were talking about. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

1399
01:27:04,440 --> 01:27:08,160
But if you harvested it when it
was green and then chopped it up,

1400
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:13,040
you'd really have to dry that material.
This is where moisture comes in.

1401
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,760
You'd have to dry it before
storing it in plastic bins so that,

1402
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:20,960
because if you were to just, uh,
you know, chop it when it's green,

1403
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:24,440
and then mulch it while it's green,
and then put it in a plastic bin,

1404
01:27:24,440 --> 01:27:28,760
even if it had a lid on or lid off of
it, whether it had a lid on or off, uh,

1405
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:33,360
it would probably be too moist
in that volume and start getting

1406
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:37,040
funky. And you'd start losing
the ni the nitrogen, um,

1407
01:27:37,170 --> 01:27:39,240
in that material because
it's actively breaking down.

1408
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:41,920
And it'd probably be doing
it in a pretty stinky way,

1409
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:45,760
which is often anaerobic
mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um,

1410
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:50,200
you'd really wanna dry that
material on a tarp or something,

1411
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:55,000
and then you can put it in your, uh,
your bins and save it. But it's not,

1412
01:27:55,670 --> 01:28:00,160
it's no longer aging
in terms of decomposing

1413
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:02,360
anymore. And sometimes
that's desired. Like,

1414
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:07,240
I do this whenever I want to
save a high nitrogen material

1415
01:28:07,380 --> 01:28:10,720
for a future compost pile that
I'm not yet ready to build,

1416
01:28:10,780 --> 01:28:14,560
but I want to make sure that it actually
maintains its high nitrogen value,

1417
01:28:14,820 --> 01:28:18,560
and the only way to do that is to
dry that material before storing it.

1418
01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:23,600
And if you don't, you just lose all
that nitrogen. Um, and then it would,

1419
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:27,840
it would, uh, become anaerobic
and problematic in that way.

1420
01:28:27,850 --> 01:28:30,920
So I know that was a lot of information,
so I'm gonna check in <laugh> at.

1421
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:35,000
This point, <laugh>. Right on. Um,
uh, this is really interesting,

1422
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:39,160
and I've never actually thought about
mulches as as much as we have really dug

1423
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:42,960
into them today. And, um, I just, I just
looked at our timer. We've done almost,

1424
01:28:43,030 --> 01:28:45,960
almost, uh, an hour second set,

1425
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:49,880
like essentially on mulches <laugh>.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so, um,

1426
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,520
I'm glad that, like, you know, we really,

1427
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:57,320
the goal of this was really to
get people to understand, um,

1428
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:00,920
how to think about mulches so
that people can use whatever,

1429
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,480
whatever they have near them, right?
Yeah. Um, because we, we don't,

1430
01:29:04,480 --> 01:29:08,000
we certainly don't want people to like
purchase stuff and ship in their mulch.

1431
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:11,320
Like there's mulch all all around us,
unless you're living in a city and then,

1432
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:15,040
and then maybe still then,
um, but I, I think that, um,

1433
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:19,150
we have effectively gone
through mulches that,

1434
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:22,310
so people can think about
what do they want in it?

1435
01:29:22,810 --> 01:29:26,470
How am I going to age it?
How am I going to apply it?

1436
01:29:26,610 --> 01:29:28,870
And so the, this kind of like,

1437
01:29:28,870 --> 01:29:33,510
system of thinking through it can be
applied to wherever folks are. So,

1438
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:35,110
so I think, I think that, uh,

1439
01:29:35,110 --> 01:29:37,430
even though it went longer than
I thought we were going to,

1440
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:40,390
we definitely hit the mark. So that's
a win. Okay. Good. Yeah. Okay. Good.

1441
01:29:40,590 --> 01:29:44,590
All right. So, um, what I think I'm gonna
do though, let's, uh, let's move, um,

1442
01:29:44,590 --> 01:29:46,990
talking about cover crop
to the third set and,

1443
01:29:46,990 --> 01:29:50,630
and wrap up this set right now
and go to commercial and then,

1444
01:29:50,630 --> 01:29:55,630
and then we'll pick up with, uh, cover
crop, um, uh, when we come back. So, um,

1445
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:57,670
uh, you are listening to Shaping Fire,

1446
01:29:57,670 --> 01:30:00,710
and my guest today is
soil biologist Andy Marsh.

1447
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:07,660
For years organic cultivators have been
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1448
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1449
01:30:12,060 --> 01:30:12,900
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1450
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But organic growers are recognizing
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1451
01:30:17,820 --> 01:30:18,080
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1452
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:22,980
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1453
01:30:22,980 --> 01:30:23,900
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1454
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1456
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1457
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1458
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1459
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1460
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Pit moss is excellent at retaining
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1461
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1462
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1463
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1464
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1465
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1467
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1469
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One of the reasons why no-till cannabis
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1478
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:03,440
because the mycelium networks in the soil
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1479
01:32:03,820 --> 01:32:07,840
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1480
01:32:07,940 --> 01:32:12,320
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1481
01:32:12,820 --> 01:32:17,480
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1482
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:22,240
it takes most of the plant's life just
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1483
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1484
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1485
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1486
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1488
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1489
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1490
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:48,600
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1491
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1493
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get anywhere else. Welcome back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire.

1538
01:35:51,500 --> 01:35:55,790
I am your host Chango Los, and my guest
today is Soil Biologist Andy Marsh.

1539
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:58,550
So here we are with the big finish. Um,

1540
01:35:58,550 --> 01:36:02,630
we're gonna start off by talking about
cover crops that we bumped from set two,

1541
01:36:02,970 --> 01:36:06,870
and then we're gonna talk about,
um, uh, uh, good strategies for,

1542
01:36:06,870 --> 01:36:11,470
for waking up your pots in the
spring, um, so that you can, um,

1543
01:36:11,950 --> 01:36:14,950
preserve all your gains from
the prior year. So, so Andy,

1544
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:17,710
when it comes to cover
crops, it seems that there,

1545
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:22,950
we kind of need to make a choice about
whether or not we want to do a mulch or

1546
01:36:23,140 --> 01:36:24,070
a cover crop,

1547
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:29,150
because the mulch would then be on top of

1548
01:36:29,210 --> 01:36:33,430
the cover crop. And if
we have the mulch on top,

1549
01:36:33,710 --> 01:36:35,670
we're not really going to, I don't think,

1550
01:36:35,670 --> 01:36:39,350
going to plant the cover crop
into the mulch. So it really is a,

1551
01:36:39,350 --> 01:36:40,430
you gotta pick one, right?

1552
01:36:41,260 --> 01:36:45,150
I think it kind of depends. It kind of
depends on your cover crop and how it,

1553
01:36:45,150 --> 01:36:49,230
like it's morphology because something
really delicate and low growing.

1554
01:36:49,230 --> 01:36:53,150
I agree with you. You probably wouldn't
wanna double up on those two, or,

1555
01:36:53,150 --> 01:36:57,630
or really, I'd just encourage like
a light mulching in that case. Um,

1556
01:36:58,210 --> 01:37:02,030
but I think you can, I thi
I think mulching in general,

1557
01:37:02,220 --> 01:37:04,070
even if you're light-handed about it,

1558
01:37:04,280 --> 01:37:07,550
is always a good practice
and that you can,

1559
01:37:07,550 --> 01:37:11,350
you can do so effectively
with your, uh, cover crop.

1560
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:16,190
So, so if you're doing something
that's really, really short, um,

1561
01:37:17,070 --> 01:37:19,030
you'd have to use a lighter hand.

1562
01:37:19,030 --> 01:37:22,750
But if you did something that was like
a bigger plant, say for example, like a,

1563
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:26,750
um, well, it's not my favorite. A lot
of people really like red clover mm-hmm.

1564
01:37:26,790 --> 01:37:26,870
<affirmative>, um,

1565
01:37:26,870 --> 01:37:31,710
you could potentially start your
red clover and once it has grown

1566
01:37:32,030 --> 01:37:36,750
above the tops of your containers,
then go and add a mulch,

1567
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:40,390
um, beneath the red clover.

1568
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:42,110
And so then that way you're having both.

1569
01:37:42,540 --> 01:37:46,150
Yeah. That way you're having both. And
in some cases, depending on your mulch,

1570
01:37:46,250 --> 01:37:51,070
you could get away with mulching lightly
before germ that cover crop germinates,

1571
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:54,910
as long as it's light enough and
they're, they're able to get,

1572
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:58,320
get the microclimate they
need to germinate, um,

1573
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:01,040
you might find that you can get
away with that. So the way that,

1574
01:38:01,100 --> 01:38:04,920
the way that I think about cover
crops is that it's a really intimate

1575
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:10,240
exercise with your cultivation.
It's a, it's a very,

1576
01:38:10,890 --> 01:38:11,723
um,

1577
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:16,360
specific practice for you
within the context of your

1578
01:38:16,910 --> 01:38:20,920
particular cultivation
practice. Okay. So it,

1579
01:38:21,670 --> 01:38:26,440
it's an exercise in understanding like
critically thinking and then researching,

1580
01:38:26,730 --> 01:38:29,400
um, plants that might make
sense for your specific context.

1581
01:38:30,590 --> 01:38:33,560
I like that idea that it's, uh,
that it's something intimate and,

1582
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:36,840
and it's very much to your, your,

1583
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:40,240
your kind of growing style and your
growing preferences. For example,

1584
01:38:40,420 --> 01:38:44,080
one of the reasons that I don't
personally like red clover, um,

1585
01:38:44,410 --> 01:38:49,120
is because it grows up into the
lower branches of my cannabis plants

1586
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:53,360
mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um,
so I personally don't use it, but,

1587
01:38:53,380 --> 01:38:56,400
but people who aren't
growing in, you know,

1588
01:38:56,550 --> 01:39:01,200
smallish containers like I am,
where I've traditionally been in,

1589
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:02,800
in seven gallon containers,

1590
01:39:02,980 --> 01:39:07,880
but moved up to 20 versus some of
the regenerative farms in California

1591
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:12,840
that are using 300 gallon, um,
grow bags mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

1592
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:13,560
well, they've got,

1593
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:17,560
they've got lots of room for red
clover in a big bag that size.

1594
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:21,640
Whereas for me, I need more
of a, a petite <laugh>, uh,

1595
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:25,520
cover crop because there's Right. There's
just not a lot of surface area in a,

1596
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,520
in a seven to 20 gallon bag.

1597
01:39:27,850 --> 01:39:29,920
Exactly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Yeah, I agree with you.

1598
01:39:30,050 --> 01:39:33,960
So let's, let's talk about the, the things
that we're hoping the cover crop, um,

1599
01:39:34,610 --> 01:39:37,760
uh, is going to do for us.
So the one that you've,

1600
01:39:37,780 --> 01:39:42,560
one that you mentioned earlier in the
set is that, um, it helps keep the,

1601
01:39:42,890 --> 01:39:46,160
uh, rhizosphere alive because, uh,

1602
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:48,520
it is a plant and it is, uh,

1603
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:51,400
feeding the microbes
through its root structure.

1604
01:39:51,490 --> 01:39:54,040
So I would put that probably
at the top of the list of,

1605
01:39:54,050 --> 01:39:58,320
of the good thing we're wanting
for it to do. Um, uh, the second,

1606
01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:01,920
a second thing is something we talk
about on the show a lot, which is, um,

1607
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:03,240
it helps the,

1608
01:40:03,740 --> 01:40:08,600
the top of the soil from going
hydrophobic because each one of those

1609
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:10,040
little, um,

1610
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:15,400
stems that are going into
the soil are providing a way

1611
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:16,680
for, uh,

1612
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:21,120
water to get into the soil and creates
these like little tunnels for them to get

1613
01:40:21,120 --> 01:40:22,920
down into the rese.

1614
01:40:23,620 --> 01:40:28,000
And then the third one that we talk a
lot about the show is that if, if you,

1615
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:31,640
if it happens to be a cover
crop with a canopy, there's a,

1616
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:34,560
there's a space between the
top of the soil and the,

1617
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:36,360
and the canopy of the cover crop,

1618
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:41,360
which creates its own
kind of bioregion and can,

1619
01:40:41,450 --> 01:40:46,320
uh, trap moisture and be a
home for, uh, uh, you know,

1620
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:49,520
insects and others that live on
top of the soil so they, you know,

1621
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:52,920
you can have a more active
food web over the winter. Um,

1622
01:40:53,250 --> 01:40:56,080
so tho those are the three
things that I most think about,

1623
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:57,960
but I bet you've got some more. So what,

1624
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:00,360
what are other good reasons
to have a cover crop?

1625
01:41:00,510 --> 01:41:04,000
Yeah, I love that last one. I,
I think of it as like a habitat,

1626
01:41:04,190 --> 01:41:05,720
just like you described.

1627
01:41:06,510 --> 01:41:11,000
I would add that the cover
crop can also provide

1628
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:14,920
additional nutrients
into the rizos sphere,

1629
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:18,640
and not just through the exudates
that are feeding the microbes,

1630
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:22,360
but in other ways. So, um,
like your legumes, for example,

1631
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:27,080
anything that's able to fix nitrogen
is a really strong example of this,

1632
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:31,480
but there's other plants that
will, uh, be able to bring about,

1633
01:41:32,170 --> 01:41:35,240
um, more calcium or, um,

1634
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,800
maybe maybe taking up something
that you are, you actually have too,

1635
01:41:38,820 --> 01:41:42,480
too much nutrient and you
actually want to remove that, um,

1636
01:41:42,480 --> 01:41:47,240
excess through a cover crop that would
kind of fall under fighter remediation

1637
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:50,080
and cover crops can be
really useful for that. Um,

1638
01:41:50,080 --> 01:41:54,400
so that would be the only thing
that I'd add to your list there.

1639
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:55,233
You had a great list.

1640
01:41:55,690 --> 01:41:59,440
Um, would you just explain for
folks who are, are like, you know,

1641
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:02,480
they're listening to this episode
because this is all new to them,

1642
01:42:02,480 --> 01:42:05,000
would you just explain nitrogen
fixing what that goal is?

1643
01:42:05,910 --> 01:42:08,680
Sure. Oh gosh, I love this
topic so much. So you,

1644
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:12,320
you're gonna have to keep me <laugh>,
keep me concise. Okay. All right. But,

1645
01:42:12,340 --> 01:42:14,440
but in general, uh,

1646
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,760
nitrogen fixing plants are a
miracle to us because nitrogen

1647
01:42:20,380 --> 01:42:23,640
the only way to get nitrogen into,

1648
01:42:24,150 --> 01:42:27,960
even just into biology in
general, including u nme.

1649
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:32,720
So first of all, nitrogen is the backbone
of amino acids and proteins. We all,

1650
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:35,440
every living thing requires nitrogen.

1651
01:42:36,020 --> 01:42:40,160
And the only way that nitrogen gets into

1652
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:42,720
lifeforms is, um, from,

1653
01:42:43,070 --> 01:42:47,800
from the atmospheric nitrogen
going through some kind
of process in the soil and

1654
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:51,920
getting into our food web.
Okay. So, um, nitrogen,

1655
01:42:52,250 --> 01:42:56,800
it has a triple bond. Um, it's an n
two molecule, atmospheric nitrogen is,

1656
01:42:57,050 --> 01:42:59,280
so that means one nitrogen, uh,

1657
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,520
atom is connected to another through
a triple bond, and it's really,

1658
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:06,680
really difficult to separate
the two to then, um,

1659
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:11,680
allow it to become something like a, a
nitrate, um, and be taken up into plants.

1660
01:43:11,820 --> 01:43:16,760
And so what's really cool is that these
nitrogen fixing plants like legumes,

1661
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:17,040
um,

1662
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:21,880
as well as some free living
organisms that do nitrogen fixing,

1663
01:43:22,610 --> 01:43:24,440
um, outside of plants entirely,

1664
01:43:24,890 --> 01:43:29,320
is that they've found a way to
break that bond and start the,

1665
01:43:29,340 --> 01:43:32,000
the cycling of nitrogen into the system.

1666
01:43:33,100 --> 01:43:35,920
And so by using these plans, uh,

1667
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:39,440
it's essentially capturing
wild nitrogen and,

1668
01:43:39,440 --> 01:43:44,360
and packing it into your soil so
that your plants can use it next

1669
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:45,060
summer.

1670
01:43:45,060 --> 01:43:45,480
Yes.

1671
01:43:45,480 --> 01:43:49,200
Exactly. Fabulous. So, um, alright, so,

1672
01:43:49,250 --> 01:43:53,280
so that's probably enough
on cover crops there. Um,

1673
01:43:53,810 --> 01:43:54,680
so let's,

1674
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:58,200
let's move on to what was going to
be the start of set three before we,

1675
01:43:58,290 --> 01:44:00,520
we bumped cover crops over, which was,

1676
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:03,280
I was gonna start with this
very dramatic question. Um,

1677
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:06,800
let's talk about worst
case scenarios that, um,

1678
01:44:06,830 --> 01:44:10,880
that we want to avoid with
our containers. And, um,

1679
01:44:11,230 --> 01:44:16,080
I could really only think of two,
which would be number one, uh,

1680
01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:20,800
your container freezing solid, um,
because I don't know this for sure,

1681
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,560
but I would think that,
um, you know, unlike the,

1682
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:30,160
the ground which will probably
not freeze solid because of

1683
01:44:30,480 --> 01:44:33,240
the ambient warmth that,
that the earth has,

1684
01:44:33,950 --> 01:44:38,880
a container could actually freeze
solid to the point where I'm

1685
01:44:38,880 --> 01:44:43,680
guessing it could, it could wipe out
Hughes swaths of, of the microbes.

1686
01:44:44,050 --> 01:44:45,320
Um, is that true?

1687
01:44:46,350 --> 01:44:47,880
Yeah, definitely. I mean,

1688
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:52,400
the microbes have water in them and, uh,

1689
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:56,960
under freezing conditions
they would cr you know,

1690
01:44:56,960 --> 01:45:01,560
those water molecules would freeze
and effectively kill them. So, um,

1691
01:45:01,830 --> 01:45:06,000
that, that would be bad news to have,
to have all the water in your pot, uh,

1692
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:07,560
essentially freeze. Mm-hmm.

1693
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:11,720
<Affirmative>. And then the second
thing I, I considered was that, um,

1694
01:45:12,500 --> 01:45:15,920
you kind of want to be aware of the
containers to make sure nothing gets

1695
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:18,440
deposited in the,

1696
01:45:18,450 --> 01:45:21,960
on the top of the container
that might cause, uh,

1697
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,240
the biology to be thrown
out of balance. Um, and,

1698
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:28,160
and I'm not like entirely certain
what that would be like, I was,

1699
01:45:28,160 --> 01:45:31,760
I was trying to think of like, you know,
you know, passing animals feces, like,

1700
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:35,160
you know, a dog or something like
that. But, you know, I, I would,

1701
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:37,200
I would tend to think that
the pot would be able to,

1702
01:45:37,250 --> 01:45:40,800
to deal with that very likely. But then
I was thinking about like, you know,

1703
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:43,840
one of the farm hands
laying their, you know,

1704
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:47,960
a can of soda that's partially drank and
then it gets knocked over by the wind

1705
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:52,160
and now suddenly you've got half of
a diet Coke in your soil. And so,

1706
01:45:52,570 --> 01:45:57,360
so you probably just want to like,
like just be aware and, you know,

1707
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:01,930
occasionally walk your field and
just make sure that that, you know,

1708
01:46:01,930 --> 01:46:04,610
chaos has not arrived on
the top of your containers.

1709
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:09,850
Yeah. I, when you mentioned that just
now, I was thinking of somebody, uh,

1710
01:46:09,850 --> 01:46:14,130
tossing out the last little bit of coffee
onto their plants thinking like, oh,

1711
01:46:14,130 --> 01:46:16,530
here's some nitrogen. And
it's like, okay, that's,

1712
01:46:16,530 --> 01:46:21,450
that might be fine here and there, uh,
in really small quantities, but if you,

1713
01:46:21,660 --> 01:46:26,210
if it's always the same plant that's
closest to wherever you're standing in the

1714
01:46:26,210 --> 01:46:28,330
field at the time that you finish
your coffee <laugh>, like, it,

1715
01:46:28,420 --> 01:46:32,610
it can become a, a problem. So just,
you know, being mindful. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1716
01:46:32,930 --> 01:46:36,050
<Affirmative>. Um, what do you think
about the idea of home growers?

1717
01:46:36,050 --> 01:46:39,610
Because like, this is, this isn't
something that scales Well, probably, um,

1718
01:46:39,610 --> 01:46:44,010
but I've got a neighbor who actually,
uh, has got a hole dug in their,

1719
01:46:44,260 --> 01:46:49,010
on their yard and they do, uh,
five twenties every year. Um,

1720
01:46:49,180 --> 01:46:53,800
and they, they put their 20 gallon
pots, like they bury them mm-hmm.

1721
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,760
<affirmative>. And so, um,
in their, in their thought,

1722
01:46:56,760 --> 01:47:01,480
the geothermal temperature will
keep the rhizosphere in the pot like

1723
01:47:01,480 --> 01:47:02,300
safe.

1724
01:47:02,300 --> 01:47:06,880
And it also allows the
migration into the pot of

1725
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:11,800
other diverse life forms that are
already in the soil because the,

1726
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:15,840
the ho the ho the hole that he dug, um,

1727
01:47:15,850 --> 01:47:19,600
is deep enough that, um,
he's got about, I don't know,

1728
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:24,240
maybe eight or 10 inches of soil that
he puts on top of them. Oh. And so it,

1729
01:47:24,730 --> 01:47:28,120
by his theory, it's actually
he says, he says it's,

1730
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:32,040
it's inviting all of these, um,

1731
01:47:32,590 --> 01:47:36,840
soil inhabitants from his
yard to like, come on in,

1732
01:47:36,840 --> 01:47:40,360
come on into the container for the,
the winter. There's all sorts of like,

1733
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:42,400
interesting foods here that
you don't normally get.

1734
01:47:42,500 --> 01:47:45,760
And so he attracts all these things
and then when he pulls 'em out in the

1735
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:49,480
spring, um, they don't
have to wake up. They're,

1736
01:47:49,480 --> 01:47:52,920
they've kind of been awake all winter
and they've got more biodiversity.

1737
01:47:53,190 --> 01:47:54,040
What do you think of that?

1738
01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:58,640
That's cool. I, I like, I like the
idea of that for sure. I think it all,

1739
01:47:58,690 --> 01:48:03,640
it all is is sound to me just hearing
about it. And I think there's,

1740
01:48:03,990 --> 01:48:04,880
yeah. The,

1741
01:48:05,100 --> 01:48:09,520
the only reason that that would work is
because he's taken good care of his pots

1742
01:48:09,520 --> 01:48:14,240
and created a habitat for
organisms to be interested in

1743
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:17,640
enough in, uh, joining <laugh>. Right.

1744
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:19,320
So. Right, right. The invitation is good.

1745
01:48:19,660 --> 01:48:23,760
Yes. Yes. I I think that's really
neat. And the fact that, um,

1746
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:28,560
it's buried and able to stay warm
and much warmer than if it were

1747
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:31,160
exposed above ground is, um, I mean,

1748
01:48:31,210 --> 01:48:34,280
it sounds labor intensive to dig
such a large hole, but you know,

1749
01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:38,160
if you have the means and,
um, I, I say go for it.

1750
01:48:38,230 --> 01:48:42,160
Yeah. He's, he, he's a, uh, retired
person with a lot of time on his hands,

1751
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:45,960
uhhuh, and he loves, he loves
to tinker and experiments. So I,

1752
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:49,720
I like going over there all sorts
of odd, odd labor intensive things.

1753
01:48:50,170 --> 01:48:51,360
So the good neighbor to have.

1754
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:56,160
Yeah, totally. Um, so earlier in the
show we, we talked quite a bit about, um,

1755
01:48:56,340 --> 01:49:00,720
how to devise a fall compost tea. Um,

1756
01:49:01,770 --> 01:49:04,660
once it gets really cold
and things are, you know,

1757
01:49:04,660 --> 01:49:07,260
things are frosting over and maybe
we're starting to get, you know,

1758
01:49:07,260 --> 01:49:11,460
nights in the thirties and
stuff, um, I'm guessing we,

1759
01:49:11,460 --> 01:49:15,980
we wanna stop adding compost
teas because we don't wanna be

1760
01:49:16,270 --> 01:49:21,060
packing our containers with
water once they start getting

1761
01:49:21,060 --> 01:49:25,860
cold because that extra
water will expand and,

1762
01:49:25,860 --> 01:49:28,460
and could actually cause damage
to the pot. So I'm thinking we,

1763
01:49:28,590 --> 01:49:30,660
we want to do what, you know, the, the,

1764
01:49:30,900 --> 01:49:35,660
the big compost tea before the frost
and then don't add any more water.

1765
01:49:36,070 --> 01:49:40,460
Or is the position like actually making
sure they get watered over the winter is

1766
01:49:40,460 --> 01:49:42,620
good because they're less
likely to cyst up? What are,

1767
01:49:42,620 --> 01:49:43,453
what are your thoughts on that?

1768
01:49:44,290 --> 01:49:49,240
I think you wanna be mindful of moisture
levels because if they get too low,

1769
01:49:49,780 --> 01:49:54,120
you will have some loss in your,

1770
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:58,240
your microbial populations.
But, um, you know,

1771
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:01,200
I'm holding space for the
idea of it freezing through,

1772
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:05,120
which is hard for a Texan like me to
really empathize with <laugh> because I,

1773
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,520
I've never, uh, experienced
it firsthand, but I,

1774
01:50:08,620 --> 01:50:13,480
I'm sure that happens up north. Um, and
it's probably when you least expect it.

1775
01:50:13,570 --> 01:50:18,200
So I, I'd say trying to find
some kind of middle ground.

1776
01:50:18,410 --> 01:50:22,600
Um, and if that means keeping things
pretty moist on the front end,

1777
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:27,400
but as those temps get colder and colder
and there's a greater risk of freezing,

1778
01:50:27,630 --> 01:50:31,440
then yeah. That you back off
and you make sure that, um,

1779
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:36,320
priority number one is that you're not,
uh, complicating any of your equipment.

1780
01:50:36,690 --> 01:50:41,480
Um, by, by freezing and also not
killing off any of the organisms,

1781
01:50:41,480 --> 01:50:43,280
uh, that are freezing
the, it's kind of like,

1782
01:50:43,620 --> 01:50:47,880
are you gonna lose them to freezing or
are you going to lose them to them not

1783
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:49,400
getting enough water? Yeah. And your,

1784
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:54,280
it's your job to be in tune
enough with when you choose to

1785
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:55,320
pull which lover.

1786
01:50:55,460 --> 01:51:00,080
And that's probably a big Biore
question as you pointed out in my head.

1787
01:51:00,610 --> 01:51:01,960
Um, you know,

1788
01:51:02,270 --> 01:51:07,080
pots never run out of water cuz I live
in the Pacific Northwest and my winter

1789
01:51:07,290 --> 01:51:09,040
is all rain mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

1790
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:13,480
But if you happen to live in the part of
the country where your winters are cold

1791
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:17,560
and dry, well then, you know, you
actually might have dehydration issues.

1792
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:18,760
So it's good to,

1793
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:22,120
it's good to make sure that you
are cultivating for where you live.

1794
01:51:22,480 --> 01:51:26,960
Certainly. And you could just as
another option you could consider,

1795
01:51:28,450 --> 01:51:31,800
uh, removing the soil from your pots.

1796
01:51:31,830 --> 01:51:35,880
I don't know if you tell me if
this is a feasible idea, but, um,

1797
01:51:35,880 --> 01:51:38,040
having that in contact with soil,

1798
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:42,240
whether you're slightly burying it or
just kind of mounting it somewhere, uh,

1799
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:46,240
in a really thoughtful space, maybe behind
a wind break or an area that's like,

1800
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:50,920
pretty well protected, but
you'd, you'd be able to, um,

1801
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:55,720
again, have migration occurring
in that scenario and, uh,

1802
01:51:55,720 --> 01:52:00,440
have a better chance of the,
the microbes surviving in,

1803
01:52:00,440 --> 01:52:03,600
in some capacity and, and
less concerns about freezing.

1804
01:52:03,980 --> 01:52:07,080
The only downside to this is
the amount of disturbance.

1805
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,280
So then when you come in in the spring,
you're disturbing that soil in order to,

1806
01:52:11,530 --> 01:52:16,440
um, put the soil into the pots. Um, and,
and that's not ideal, but it's also,

1807
01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:17,200
again,

1808
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:21,840
comparing that reality to what
happens when you leave that pot

1809
01:52:21,890 --> 01:52:26,200
exposed all winter long. And I'd
say that that disturbance, um,

1810
01:52:26,200 --> 01:52:29,000
might actually be the, the
lesser of two evils there.

1811
01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:31,520
Yeah, that's interesting. When
you, when you first suggested that,

1812
01:52:31,520 --> 01:52:35,280
my thought was, oh my gosh, it's just
gonna wreck the mycelium networks mm-hmm.

1813
01:52:35,320 --> 01:52:38,920
<affirmative>. But if let's say you live
somewhere that gets really cold, like,

1814
01:52:38,920 --> 01:52:42,800
um, like I imagine Montana to
be okay. Right, right. Like I,

1815
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:47,120
I've seen enough movies where, you know,
know nature just seems too free solid.

1816
01:52:47,700 --> 01:52:51,280
And, and so if you've got
extreme situations like that,

1817
01:52:51,790 --> 01:52:56,160
a a 10 gallon container on your deck, it,

1818
01:52:56,160 --> 01:52:58,920
it probably doesn't have a chance.
Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so,

1819
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:03,280
and so if you were to make a pile of all,
you know, 10 gallon containers of the,

1820
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:06,480
just the soil, yeah, you'll
beat up the mycelium networks,

1821
01:53:06,480 --> 01:53:07,720
but at least they'll all, all,

1822
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,440
they'll all essentially be huddled
together for the cold season.

1823
01:53:10,510 --> 01:53:13,160
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah,
I agree. It's, it's again,

1824
01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:17,280
just kind of thinking critically about
these things and comparing one option to

1825
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:19,360
another and not getting
too dogmatic about it.

1826
01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:23,160
Just because you saw someone on TikTok
swearing by their method of over

1827
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:25,480
wintering their pods doesn't
mean it's the best method for.

1828
01:53:25,480 --> 01:53:29,760
You. Yeah. Right on. Um, alright, so,
uh, let's go into this, uh, last area,

1829
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:34,440
which is let's talk about waking up
the pots, uh, in the spring. So, um,

1830
01:53:34,440 --> 01:53:39,000
let's assume that we, we did all of
the things right. Um, we did a, uh,

1831
01:53:39,030 --> 01:53:43,600
a late season Fung Lee dominant, um, uh,

1832
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:47,440
compost tea. And then we also did a, uh,

1833
01:53:47,630 --> 01:53:50,200
protozoa infusion in the fall.

1834
01:53:50,780 --> 01:53:55,320
And then we had a really
nicely blended, uh, top mulch,

1835
01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:58,800
and then we were growing a cover
crop that was helping keep the,

1836
01:53:59,020 --> 01:54:00,600
the microbes fed over winter.

1837
01:54:00,700 --> 01:54:05,160
And so now we find
ourselves in the spring and,

1838
01:54:05,730 --> 01:54:07,240
um, uh,

1839
01:54:07,570 --> 01:54:12,520
we want to transition our
pot back to a position where

1840
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:16,560
it's ready for us to, uh,
bring in our clones, um,

1841
01:54:16,560 --> 01:54:18,320
or our seed starts. And,

1842
01:54:18,380 --> 01:54:22,800
and we want them to just like immediately
get into this wonderful relationship,

1843
01:54:23,010 --> 01:54:27,720
uh, and reform a rhizosphere
and take off. So what,

1844
01:54:27,720 --> 01:54:30,240
what hints would you give us to, uh,

1845
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:35,000
ease that transition for the microbes
from where they're getting their food and

1846
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:38,200
the plant to be, uh, warmly
embraced by the soil.

1847
01:54:38,430 --> 01:54:40,320
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, so,

1848
01:54:40,610 --> 01:54:44,480
so it's important at this point
that you're not providing too many

1849
01:54:45,680 --> 01:54:49,080
synthetic nutrients. I mean, really we,

1850
01:54:49,170 --> 01:54:51,480
if we're thinking biologically,

1851
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:55,200
we don't really wanna be using many
stu synthetic nutrients at all, um,

1852
01:54:55,200 --> 01:54:56,640
because they can kill microbes,

1853
01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:01,000
but especially during this early
establishment phase, it can be tempting.

1854
01:55:01,140 --> 01:55:05,080
And so I just want to
note that, um, when we,

1855
01:55:05,870 --> 01:55:09,680
when we provide those nutrients
directly to the plant,

1856
01:55:09,950 --> 01:55:14,400
it's disrupting that engagement
between the microbes and the root

1857
01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:15,880
exudates. It, the,

1858
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:19,800
the plant is only going to generate
those root exudates if it has needs that

1859
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:22,320
need to be met mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, um, by the microbes.

1860
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:26,880
And so that's why I just wanna
caution against getting too, uh,

1861
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:31,400
tempted by providing some kind of
synthetic nutrient boost and instead

1862
01:55:31,400 --> 01:55:35,600
focusing on, um, yeah,
maximizing the inoculation.

1863
01:55:35,860 --> 01:55:39,200
And your job is to make introductions.

1864
01:55:39,220 --> 01:55:41,920
You are bringing in the microbes, um,

1865
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:45,520
so that they can start responding
to those exudates. So similarly,

1866
01:55:45,700 --> 01:55:49,000
you don't necessarily need to be all
that focused on providing a lot of

1867
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:52,480
microbial foods because we want them
to be getting their foods now from the

1868
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:54,360
plant and start creating
that relationship.

1869
01:55:55,330 --> 01:55:57,920
So would that make a suggestion that we,

1870
01:55:57,970 --> 01:56:01,920
we don't wanna do a
heavy spring compost tea.

1871
01:56:03,070 --> 01:56:07,640
I think you, I think you can do, um, you
definitely wanna do a compost tea, uh,

1872
01:56:07,640 --> 01:56:10,320
but this time be more
focused on the inoculation.

1873
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:14,680
And so this is where extracts
might actually be become, um,

1874
01:56:14,730 --> 01:56:16,920
of greater interest to you.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um,

1875
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:21,240
doing more frequent extracts rather than

1876
01:56:21,940 --> 01:56:26,920
big batches of like nutrient rich tea. Um,

1877
01:56:26,920 --> 01:56:31,920
and, and I say this in terms of may,
you know, you can certainly do a tea,

1878
01:56:32,340 --> 01:56:33,560
but don't go,

1879
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:37,200
don't go too heavy handed on it because
your goal is if you find yourself

1880
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:41,120
tempted to be adding tea, um,
super regularly in the spring,

1881
01:56:41,240 --> 01:56:44,920
maybe start alternating
with an extract. And again,

1882
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:48,280
an extract is just the microbes.
You're not adding foods,

1883
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:51,240
you're not having a brewing cycle.
Um, you're, you're just it's.

1884
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:55,880
Less inoculate. It's less dense. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, uh, uh, Jeff Lowenfels, uh,

1885
01:56:56,110 --> 01:57:00,560
says that early in the season,
you, you want your microbes to be,

1886
01:57:00,890 --> 01:57:03,760
um, you don't wanna make 'em lazy,
you don't wanna make it mm-hmm.

1887
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:07,240
<affirmative> too easy for them. You
want them to get to work. Exactly.

1888
01:57:07,340 --> 01:57:10,600
And that sounds like what we're
describing here. Um, exactly.

1889
01:57:10,900 --> 01:57:11,840
And same with the plants.

1890
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:13,880
Yeah. We want them building, um,

1891
01:57:13,900 --> 01:57:17,320
not not laying around because
there's all this easy free food.

1892
01:57:17,450 --> 01:57:20,080
Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
that's, that's right on. Right.

1893
01:57:20,080 --> 01:57:24,440
On. Um, i, is, is there
anything that we need to do or,

1894
01:57:24,440 --> 01:57:28,120
or is there anything that we can do
that can support them changing the food

1895
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:32,800
source, uh, from the compost
teas to back to the, the,

1896
01:57:32,800 --> 01:57:35,880
the roots exudates and
such? Or, or does that just,

1897
01:57:36,310 --> 01:57:40,760
they probably prefer the exudates and
so as soon as we put a plant in there,

1898
01:57:41,210 --> 01:57:45,680
um, it will, they, they will
naturally just switch on their own,

1899
01:57:45,740 --> 01:57:46,240
you know?

1900
01:57:46,240 --> 01:57:49,960
Cause we're just trying to decrease as
much transition time as possible. Right.

1901
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:51,400
Right. And,

1902
01:57:51,780 --> 01:57:55,520
and there is a level of patience that's
always required here because you're

1903
01:57:55,520 --> 01:58:00,120
taking a very young plant that's
not yet pumping out lots and lots of

1904
01:58:00,320 --> 01:58:02,320
oxidates. And so, um,

1905
01:58:02,410 --> 01:58:07,160
be because of its limited capacity
to photosynthesize since it has

1906
01:58:07,310 --> 01:58:10,200
a small surface area to do so. Um,

1907
01:58:10,330 --> 01:58:13,800
so I think just tapering
off and knowing that,

1908
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:16,880
like leading up to planting day, um,

1909
01:58:17,370 --> 01:58:21,960
to go really light-handed like little
to no microbial foods are being added

1910
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:22,480
during that time.

1911
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:26,280
You did that work in the winter to get
your microbes through winter and have

1912
01:58:26,310 --> 01:58:28,880
food, um, to, to sustain them.

1913
01:58:28,940 --> 01:58:33,840
But now as you're transitioning into
planting, um, you're, you're going to,

1914
01:58:34,170 --> 01:58:36,960
um, back off on in terms of feeding the,

1915
01:58:36,960 --> 01:58:41,360
the microbe foods again so that um,
when that plant gets in in there,

1916
01:58:41,430 --> 01:58:45,760
they can start creating
their relationship. And once
it gets to a certain stage,

1917
01:58:46,170 --> 01:58:50,760
um, you, there shouldn't be a limiting
factor anymore. So you, you know,

1918
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:55,720
you might, in, in terms of using my
microscope to look at these things, um,

1919
01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:57,520
of what's really going
on in the root zone,

1920
01:58:58,220 --> 01:59:02,840
you might see like a drop in your
biomass during a phase where you've put a

1921
01:59:02,840 --> 01:59:06,200
young plant in, into
the container, but it,

1922
01:59:06,200 --> 01:59:08,560
it kind of turns a
corner at some point, uh,

1923
01:59:08,590 --> 01:59:12,520
once it's really photosynthesizing and
pumping out those sugars to feed the

1924
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:13,353
microbes.

1925
01:59:13,550 --> 01:59:15,400
It's funny because it's, um,

1926
01:59:15,430 --> 01:59:20,200
it's fall and I am not thinking about
you, you know, growing right now.

1927
01:59:20,200 --> 01:59:23,640
Right now I'm feeling tired from the
summer, and I'm glad I'm not like,

1928
01:59:23,980 --> 01:59:27,720
you know, farming right now. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, however, you know,

1929
01:59:27,720 --> 01:59:32,120
you talking about these like healthy
thriving pots and these young plants,

1930
01:59:32,120 --> 01:59:35,920
and I'm like, Ooh, like start the season.
Start. I love, I love thinking about,

1931
01:59:35,920 --> 01:59:39,520
and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
We got, we got five months, man. Like,

1932
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,800
chill out. Like, we've got
a while. But, um, you know,

1933
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:47,720
there is something inherently exciting
about thinking ahead to the fresh

1934
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:48,920
season every year. Oh.

1935
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:49,640
Yeah. You'll,

1936
01:59:49,640 --> 01:59:52,800
you'll look like you have imaginary plant
friends if you're out there tending to

1937
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:56,400
your pots with no plants in 'em, but
I think that's, uh, just as well.

1938
01:59:56,560 --> 02:00:01,440
Right on. Um, well Andy, thank you so
much for being a guest on Shaping Fire.

1939
02:00:01,440 --> 02:00:02,800
This is, um, I, I've,

1940
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:07,720
I've always been interested on
things that I can do to get a,

1941
02:00:07,910 --> 02:00:12,040
a jumpstart on the, on,
you know, next year. But I,

1942
02:00:12,040 --> 02:00:15,560
I'm usually am thinking about,
well, let's, let's make an f pj,

1943
02:00:15,600 --> 02:00:20,400
let's make a fertilizer, let's make
sure that the compost is going. And, um,

1944
02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:23,160
the idea that I can, um,

1945
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:26,760
pay attention and use intention, uh,

1946
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:31,080
with the soil that is in my
containers and the earth so that,

1947
02:00:31,490 --> 02:00:31,870
um,

1948
02:00:31,870 --> 02:00:36,560
I don't have to put in as much
work every spring to get the micro

1949
02:00:36,930 --> 02:00:41,320
machine pumping along. Um,
I'm glad to have, you know, a,

1950
02:00:41,320 --> 02:00:44,720
a better understanding of
how to do that as well.

1951
02:00:45,230 --> 02:00:49,000
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, I
think all of these things too, the,

1952
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:50,520
the cover crops, the mulching,

1953
02:00:50,520 --> 02:00:54,920
the adding of the microbial foods and
the inoculation that the biology itself,

1954
02:00:54,920 --> 02:00:58,800
they're all contributing to so many
different areas that benefit us.

1955
02:00:58,930 --> 02:01:01,120
So it's not just about plant nutrients,

1956
02:01:01,150 --> 02:01:04,920
it's also about that soil structure
we talked about earlier. And I,

1957
02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:07,280
I think that's really undervalued or,

1958
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:11,800
or it kind of goes unrecognized a
lot of times come, come springtime,

1959
02:01:11,870 --> 02:01:14,880
just how valuable that it can be, um,

1960
02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:19,120
to have a pot that's been nurtured
and has a really healthy sru structure

1961
02:01:19,310 --> 02:01:23,840
that's prepared to become
home to that young plant.

1962
02:01:24,130 --> 02:01:24,480
Um,

1963
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:29,400
it's kind of like moving
into a neighborhood that
has a good vibe and lots of

1964
02:01:29,480 --> 02:01:32,560
friendly neighbors as opposed
to something that's, you know,

1965
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:35,320
a neighborhood that's been really
neglected and and desolate.

1966
02:01:35,820 --> 02:01:39,120
Wow. That's a great example. Excellent.
Right on. Well, let's, let's,

1967
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:42,080
let's all get to making good
neighborhoods for our, uh,

1968
02:01:42,080 --> 02:01:45,720
for our plants to move into in the
spring. So thank you so much, Andy.

1969
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:47,480
I I really enjoyed our conversation.

1970
02:01:48,330 --> 02:01:49,600
Me too. Thanks for having me.

1971
02:01:50,170 --> 02:01:54,880
If you want to find out more
information about Andy Marsh, um,

1972
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:58,320
there are two great places
to go. Um, first, uh,

1973
02:01:58,320 --> 02:02:03,080
you can go to her Instagram,
which is at Soil is Sexy.

1974
02:02:03,620 --> 02:02:07,920
And, uh, her Instagram's a lot of fun.
Not only do Will you learn lots of,

1975
02:02:08,370 --> 02:02:12,800
um, you know, good best practices
for taking care of your soil, um,

1976
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:17,800
but there's all sorts of interesting,
um, uh, microscopic posts and, uh,

1977
02:02:18,080 --> 02:02:21,360
great, like pictures
of, of slides and such.

1978
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:24,520
And so if you are, uh,
either interested in,

1979
02:02:24,520 --> 02:02:29,440
in microscope science or, um, actually
don't know much about it like me,

1980
02:02:29,490 --> 02:02:32,200
uh, it's a great place
to start where you can,

1981
02:02:32,200 --> 02:02:35,880
you can pick up interesting
things without it, um, you know,

1982
02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:38,920
necessarily like you happen to
read a whole book, you can get,

1983
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:43,800
get little bits here and there and it's,
it's, it's fun to follow along. Um,

1984
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:46,720
now if you are more serious than that, um,

1985
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:51,560
you definitely want to check
out Andy's, which is, uh,

1986
02:02:51,750 --> 02:02:55,080
rizzos.sub.com. So that's Rizzos,

1987
02:02:55,080 --> 02:03:00,040
R H I Z O S, where you are gonna, um, uh,

1988
02:03:00,040 --> 02:03:02,360
find more of her, uh, uh,

1989
02:03:02,360 --> 02:03:06,520
writings and scientific thought than
the kind of, you know, Instagram,

1990
02:03:06,520 --> 02:03:09,840
which is a little bit
sometimes Science Light ck is,

1991
02:03:09,840 --> 02:03:13,400
is is where you're gonna want to
go, um, when you decide you wanna,

1992
02:03:13,400 --> 02:03:16,840
you wanna read something
serious. That's rizzos.sub.com.

1993
02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:21,580
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1994
02:03:21,580 --> 02:03:24,900
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1995
02:03:25,070 --> 02:03:26,180
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1996
02:03:26,180 --> 02:03:28,900
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1997
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1998
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1999
02:03:35,540 --> 02:03:39,140
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2000
02:03:39,140 --> 02:03:43,500
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2001
02:03:43,500 --> 02:03:46,180
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2002
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2003
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2004
02:03:52,830 --> 02:03:54,580
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2005
02:03:54,910 --> 02:03:58,260
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2006
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2007
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2008
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2009
02:04:07,970 --> 02:04:12,020
Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire.
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