1 00:00:07,090 --> 00:00:11,270 The community of cannabis cultivators has always been tight. We had to be, 2 00:00:11,370 --> 00:00:13,550 for most of our lives, we were persecuted, 3 00:00:13,550 --> 00:00:15,670 and in some jurisdictions we still are. 4 00:00:16,220 --> 00:00:20,550 That persecution meant that we couldn't access many of the botanists we'd like 5 00:00:20,550 --> 00:00:21,370 to talk to. 6 00:00:21,370 --> 00:00:26,110 And that meant there were big parts of cannabis cultivation that was kind of in 7 00:00:26,110 --> 00:00:30,550 a biological black box. We couldn't see what was happening inside. 8 00:00:31,130 --> 00:00:35,230 All we knew was what we were doing, and then what was coming out the other side. 9 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:37,040 Now though, 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,750 between the creeping partial legalization we've got and the internet, 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,190 we can now access the minds of scientists who support our efforts to grow 12 00:00:46,590 --> 00:00:49,670 magnificent, thriving, and medicinal cannabis plants. 13 00:00:50,690 --> 00:00:54,600 Today's one of those episodes where we get to look inside that black box. 14 00:00:54,990 --> 00:00:56,480 During today's episode, 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,040 we will examine the relationship between the cannabis plant and the soil life 16 00:01:01,140 --> 00:01:05,400 and get a better understanding of how they talk to each other and how they work 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,720 together for mutual benefit in this intimate relationship. 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,230 If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently 19 00:01:14,230 --> 00:01:17,230 and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. 20 00:01:17,390 --> 00:01:20,230 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 21 00:01:20,230 --> 00:01:22,030 delivered right to your inbox, 22 00:01:22,030 --> 00:01:25,710 along with commentary on a couple most important news items from the week and 23 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:26,543 videos too. 24 00:01:26,710 --> 00:01:30,150 Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. 25 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:34,070 Sign up for the updates and make sure you don't miss an episode. Also, 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,670 we are giving away very cool prizes to folks who are signed up to receive the 27 00:01:37,670 --> 00:01:38,030 newsletter. 28 00:01:38,030 --> 00:01:40,910 There's nothing else you need to do to win except receive that newsletter. 29 00:01:40,910 --> 00:01:45,190 So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter and be entered into this 30 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:47,710 month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. 31 00:01:48,330 --> 00:01:51,870 You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Shago LOEs. 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,190 My guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. 33 00:01:55,470 --> 00:01:59,950 Sarah Lane is wrapping up her PhD in plant and cellular biology at University of 34 00:02:00,110 --> 00:02:00,730 Victoria. 35 00:02:00,730 --> 00:02:05,350 Her work primarily focuses on root exudates that are involved in iron 36 00:02:05,350 --> 00:02:08,350 uptake in plants and their potential medicinal benefits. 37 00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:13,630 Sarah consults for licensed cannabis cultivators in Canada and is an avid living 38 00:02:13,630 --> 00:02:17,510 soil, cannabis home grower. Due to her university research needs, 39 00:02:17,530 --> 00:02:21,270 she is also very experienced in fog, pons, and hydroponics. 40 00:02:21,950 --> 00:02:26,830 Sarah has a wicked large plant collection and is currently designing a specialty 41 00:02:26,830 --> 00:02:31,830 terrarium for growing cloud orchids. During the first set of today's episode, 42 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:34,310 we will focus on what exudates are, 43 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:38,150 their biological mechanics and how they interact with microbes and other 44 00:02:38,430 --> 00:02:41,190 residents of the rhizosphere. During the second set, 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,350 we will talk about the relationship between dates and fungal networks, 46 00:02:45,870 --> 00:02:48,150 signaling varieties of exude dates, 47 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:51,430 and address the challenges of a 24 hour light cycle. 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,430 We finish up the third set discussing exudates and salt based fertilizers. 49 00:02:56,780 --> 00:02:59,800 Exudates and soil is growing mediums like, like Coco core, 50 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:04,680 and the misconception of using unsolved moral assets to replace the nutrition 51 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,170 that exudates provide. Welcome to Shaping Fire, Sarah. 52 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:10,810 Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. 53 00:03:10,810 --> 00:03:13,610 Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise. 54 00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:18,450 So let's jump right in. You know, I think that most people, uh, 55 00:03:18,450 --> 00:03:23,290 who cultivate cannabis, who have even heard of exudates, um, 56 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,570 only really know that exudates are something that the cannabis plant gives 57 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:33,010 off and that the microbes eat. And like, 58 00:03:33,010 --> 00:03:35,410 that's pretty much it. It's the, it's the food, it's the, 59 00:03:35,410 --> 00:03:39,290 the plant feeding the microbes, and that's about it. And, and you know, 60 00:03:39,290 --> 00:03:43,050 we know that that's actually like overly simplistic and misses the big picture. 61 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:43,500 So, 62 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:47,690 so why don't we start by kind of getting everybody on the same page and if you 63 00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:50,210 would, explain what exudates are. 64 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:51,540 Okay. 65 00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:56,090 So exudates are basically all of the different molecules and 66 00:03:56,090 --> 00:04:00,050 components that the plant makes in the roots that are like given off to the 67 00:04:00,050 --> 00:04:00,650 cryosphere. 68 00:04:00,650 --> 00:04:04,730 So there's a bunch of stuff inside the plant cells and inside the root that 69 00:04:04,730 --> 00:04:09,090 happens. And then ex dates are everything that the plant makes specifically to, 70 00:04:09,090 --> 00:04:10,970 to transport out into the soil. 71 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:13,810 And there's lots of different types of exit dates. They can be sugars, 72 00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:16,570 they can be amino acids, they can be, um, 73 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:20,930 specific types of secondary metabolites which are not used for nutrition. 74 00:04:20,950 --> 00:04:23,850 And there's many, many different functions of them as well. 75 00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:26,610 So just to give us an idea of, 76 00:04:26,740 --> 00:04:31,130 of like how many different exu dates there are. Are we, 77 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:34,290 are we talking about like, like there's, there's, 78 00:04:34,290 --> 00:04:39,210 there's like five buckets or 50 buckets or a hundred buckets, 79 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:42,050 Like how many, how many varieties are there just, just in general? 80 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:44,650 Oh, goodness, That's a tough one. There, 81 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:49,090 there honestly are so many different types of ex dates and we're just scratching 82 00:04:49,090 --> 00:04:52,370 the surface of what ex dates actually are like off the top of my head, 83 00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:57,250 like functionally there's probably like 20 different groups of ex dates that I 84 00:04:57,250 --> 00:04:58,010 know of personally, 85 00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:02,810 but I think ex dates are extremely hard to study because they are in the soil 86 00:05:02,810 --> 00:05:07,770 and the roots. So I think we'll probably keep finding new ones over time. 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,730 This is ki i I get the idea now that this is kind of like asking you how many, 88 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:16,130 uh, types of bacteria are there. There's just like a ton in nature and, 89 00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:19,810 and we're, we're constantly finding more as our, um, 90 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:21,490 technology gets more sensitive. 91 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:23,930 So true. Yep. That's definitely the case. 92 00:05:24,170 --> 00:05:25,930 . All right. So, um, 93 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:29,930 like to help illustrate what some of these ex expedites are, 94 00:05:29,930 --> 00:05:34,050 can you give us like, like three different examples of exit eights that, 95 00:05:34,050 --> 00:05:35,490 you know, maybe you particularly like, 96 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,370 just so that we can kind of wrap our head around, um, you know, what, 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,490 what they do? 98 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,090 Yeah, sure. Um, so I mean, 99 00:05:44,090 --> 00:05:47,970 the ones that I work with specifically are called OIDs. 100 00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:52,490 They're actually sort of a group of molecules that come from the process of 101 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:55,090 building up lignin, but they have lots of different uses. Um, 102 00:05:55,090 --> 00:05:56,930 and those include things like, um, some of 'em are, 103 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,440 are complicated ones are chlorogenic acid, 104 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,440 which is actually found really in high amounts in coffee, 105 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,520 so people might be a little bit more familiar with it. Um, 106 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:09,120 there's also amino acids like, um, that not only are used for protein building, 107 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,080 but plants can make special non-pro amino acids that are really useful in 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,680 finding out things like fishing out iron note of the soil and that kind of 109 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,440 thing. Um, and then the other one is flavonoids. 110 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,640 There's actually a bunch of different types of flavonoids, 111 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,960 which is a big huge supergroup of different types of molecules, 112 00:06:26,020 --> 00:06:30,920 and they're involved in everything from antioxidant behavior to, um, 113 00:06:31,070 --> 00:06:33,760 even signaling to mic and things like that. 114 00:06:34,420 --> 00:06:38,800 All right. So, so you've mentioned, um, uh, I think that, 115 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,240 I think I've pulled out like three different categories from your examples. 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,160 There. There would be like, um, like this, the only ones I was aware of, 117 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,480 the nutrition. Right. Um, and then it's, 118 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,680 and then you've mentioned signaling a couple times. And then, and then, um, 119 00:06:53,990 --> 00:06:57,800 you've, you sounds like there are some that actual process, 120 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:03,510 um, uh, like things like nitrogen and things like that, 121 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:07,550 they're like more like, kinda like worker bees. Um, is that, do, 122 00:07:07,550 --> 00:07:11,990 do all of exit dates roughly fall into these three categories or, um, 123 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:15,360 or are there many more categories to like what they do? 124 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:20,160 I think functionally we can kind of bin them, if you wanna call it that, 125 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,360 into a couple different groups. 126 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,880 There's definitely like interacting with nutrients directly, 127 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,000 which is kind of where my expertise is. Um, 128 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,840 there's signaling back and forth like talking to bacteria or fungi or that kind 129 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,520 of thing where they interact with the, um, 130 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,320 microbes and the microbes interact back. 131 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:41,360 And then there's another big group that are almost like anti herital 132 00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:44,130 or, or herital, sorry. Um, 133 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:48,010 and those ones are responsible for sort of clearing the way for the plant to 134 00:07:48,010 --> 00:07:50,650 grow. Um, I'm sure there's more than that, 135 00:07:50,650 --> 00:07:52,890 but I think that's kind of like the big huge groups. 136 00:07:53,460 --> 00:07:57,690 So I think I have an overly simplistic understanding of the back and forth 137 00:07:57,690 --> 00:08:02,530 because the way I normally think about the relationship with the plant and the, 138 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:05,130 um, the microbes and the rest of the life and the, the, 139 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:09,530 the RSOs sphere is that during the daytime, the plant will, um, 140 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:13,530 uh, be fed by the microbes and, and, 141 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,210 and the rest of the players in the RSOs sphere during the day. 142 00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:18,770 And then during the dark period, 143 00:08:19,390 --> 00:08:23,130 the plant will then turn around and send, uh, the, 144 00:08:23,130 --> 00:08:27,330 the required nutrition back into the R osse. And so it's like a, 145 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:31,930 it's like a back and forth, like a tide thing dependent on, um, 146 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:35,850 you know, whether or not it is day or night cycle for the plant, 147 00:08:35,850 --> 00:08:38,090 which is kind of quarterbacking this back and forth, 148 00:08:38,260 --> 00:08:42,010 is how I generally think about it. But, um, 149 00:08:42,010 --> 00:08:44,810 but that may very well be way too simplistic. So, 150 00:08:44,810 --> 00:08:47,570 so will you kind of explain how it goes back and forth? 151 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,530 Yeah, so I think like the basic idea of signaling is, 152 00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:53,490 is a little bit like texting. It's, 153 00:08:53,490 --> 00:08:57,120 it's not so much that the plants are providing nutrition directly to the roots, 154 00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:59,880 although in some ca or from the roots to the microbes, 155 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,160 although in some cases it is. 156 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:05,480 And it's not always that the microbes are providing nutrition back to the plant. 157 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,440 There's a lot of signaling that's going on. And that's kind of like, 158 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,920 if you can imagine, um, you know, being at home and, hey, 159 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,400 can you pick me up some milk from the grocery store? But it could also be like, 160 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,760 Hey, I've got cookies when you've got home, when you come home, 161 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,800 and that kind of thing. So that's kind of what I mean by signaling. Um, 162 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,640 and that signaling happens all day, every day at any time. 163 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:28,360 So there is some regulation with light interacting. 164 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,400 Obviously light drives photosynthesis and that kind of thing. 165 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,760 And when the plant is on, 166 00:09:33,070 --> 00:09:37,960 it's often needing a lot of different types of activities 167 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,840 like nutrient acquisition and maybe it's doing some, you know, 168 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,600 stress responses to help against pests or something like that. 169 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,120 And a lot of this happens in the daylight. 170 00:09:47,390 --> 00:09:52,160 I don't think we know enough about whether or not it happens in the dark mm-hmm. 171 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,120 because the roots are always in the dark technically. 172 00:09:55,310 --> 00:09:57,720 Sure. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Um, you know, 173 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,000 the way that you described it, 174 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,320 this kind of like all these different microbes and 175 00:10:03,690 --> 00:10:04,420 uh, 176 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:09,300 and protozoa and then the plant exudates all kind of calling 177 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:12,220 out to each other and signaling, you know, uh, 178 00:10:12,220 --> 00:10:15,300 pickup milk or I have cookies when you get home and like, and, 179 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:17,140 and if everybody is doing that, 180 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:22,020 I suddenly got this idea of like this cacophony of signals back and 181 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:26,900 forth and like shopkeepers calling out what's on sale and kinda like some 182 00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:30,780 kind of like big Turkish bizarre and like everybody trying to, you know, 183 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:34,260 get everybody's attention. Um, is that a, 184 00:10:34,270 --> 00:10:37,420 is that a reasonable picture of, of, of what's going on? 185 00:10:37,810 --> 00:10:39,620 It's a beautiful picture of what's going on. 186 00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:42,580 I really do think that's exactly what's happening because there, 187 00:10:42,580 --> 00:10:46,500 like we often think about it being just the plant and the microbes interacting 188 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:49,740 with each other, but the microbes interact with each other too, 189 00:10:49,740 --> 00:10:53,980 and with fungi and with different, um, organisms around, like, 190 00:10:54,030 --> 00:10:58,540 it is just a huge web of different organisms 191 00:10:58,540 --> 00:11:01,700 talking to each other. And sometimes that is like, you know, 192 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:04,780 selling your chips on the, you know, or the hotdog stand or whatever. 193 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:08,860 And maybe it is advertising for sale and it's very, very, very complicated. 194 00:11:08,860 --> 00:11:11,740 And I, it's something that I think we wish we knew more about, 195 00:11:11,740 --> 00:11:16,460 but trying to dissect what each of those components is contributing to 196 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:18,020 the soil life or, 197 00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:22,540 or even just how the plant is growing in the soil is really complicated. I like. 198 00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:23,180 That though. Yeah. 199 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:26,940 And it's strange too because like I've always kind of thought as of the soil as 200 00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:31,460 while a violent place often, um, uh, you know, pretty calm actually. 201 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:33,780 Like it's, it's kind of serene in there, but it's, 202 00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:36,780 it's probably because of the level of magnitude I'm like, I'm, 203 00:11:36,780 --> 00:11:39,420 I'm living on this human level of magnitude, 204 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,980 but if I could see really closely under a microscope I'd be, 205 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,300 I'd be seeing all this activity in the cryosphere. 206 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:50,380 And so it's only quiet to me cuz like, I, I can't hear it. 207 00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:55,600 Absolutely. It is very barely controlled chaos down there. Let me tell you. 208 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,880 . So do we have a, uh, any technology or any way to, uh, 209 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,880 gauge the amount of, you know, 210 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,000 rambunctious signaling that's going back and forth? Like, there is, 211 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,720 is there any kind of like a, you know, 212 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,080 anything that we can like put into the soil to gauge signaling that's taking 213 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:13,960 place in the soil? 214 00:12:15,010 --> 00:12:18,080 Um, I think it's, it's pretty complicated, 215 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,200 but there's some interesting things that go on. So like, 216 00:12:20,270 --> 00:12:21,800 I guess it depends on what level. 217 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,720 So what we're talking about right now is on the chemical level. And really the, 218 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:29,080 the way that a lot of people are doing this is either bulk, 219 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,200 so they take a big sample of soil and then measure it for different types of 220 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,920 organisms or different types of signals that they're producing, 221 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:38,520 but then trying to tease that out. 222 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:42,400 We can tell differences like maybe between different types of soil or different 223 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,600 types of communities, different types of plants, that kind of thing. Um, 224 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,280 but I think it'd be really hard to pick out which one is responsible for exactly 225 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:49,820 which one. 226 00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:54,280 And so the other option is to take an individual plant and an individual 227 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:58,360 organism and see what they do together, just the two of them. 228 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,680 And it's one of the real challenges with like soil ecology or, 229 00:13:01,770 --> 00:13:05,160 or like ecology in general is just trying to pull out, 230 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,640 you either have to treat it as a whole and just accept that you don't understand 231 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,680 the individual relationships. Um, 232 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,600 or you have to get in there and try and tease them apart one by one. 233 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,600 Does that make sense? It. 234 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,240 Does. So let's talk a little bit about, um, 235 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,560 a couple of these different varieties. So, um, the, 236 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:25,440 the one that we've talked about the most so far is, or the signaling. 237 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:30,120 And so we understand, you know, 238 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,400 what they're trying to signal. Like, like, I have this type of nutrition or, 239 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:38,360 or maybe I need this type of nutrition. Um, 240 00:13:39,380 --> 00:13:43,880 how are they doing that? Are they doing that, um, primarily, uh, 241 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,240 chemically or is an electrical charge or what is at, at that, um, 242 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,400 very small level? What is the mode of communication? 243 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:57,000 It is, it is chemical. I mean there for the most part, um, 244 00:13:57,010 --> 00:14:00,000 it is like plants. If we go back to the exit date thing, 245 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,080 like these plants are making these very highly specific molecules. 246 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,720 They're basically, in some cases like an invitation, 247 00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:11,640 and then those are actually like taken up by the microbe in question. 248 00:14:12,130 --> 00:14:16,640 Um, and that changes what the microbe can make. So it actually interacts, um, 249 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,520 after a long signal in cascade inside the cell, 250 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,240 it'll interact on the genome and then they'll be able to produce different types 251 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,400 of molecules based on that information. 252 00:14:26,540 --> 00:14:31,000 And then that ends up getting made and exuded out by the microbe. 253 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,200 And then maybe that's an RSVP response card back to the plant. 254 00:14:35,690 --> 00:14:37,880 Um, and then they kind of do this back and forth, 255 00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:41,440 or sometimes it might just be like they actually make a different molecule and 256 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,280 that molecule is then transported into the plant cell. Does that. 257 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,480 Make sense? Yeah. And it's super cool actually. I mean the idea that, that the, 258 00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:49,340 the, 259 00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:54,160 the signaling exudate kind of like combines with the microbe 260 00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:56,360 and between the two of them, 261 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,200 they develop this superpower that it's the only way that what is necessary 262 00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:06,240 is produced. I mean, that's pretty cool. . That's a very complex complex, 263 00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:07,223 Yeah. 264 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,920 . I think it's awesome. I th I think it's also important to note though, 265 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,720 that what we're talking about there is like, um, 266 00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:15,960 a pretty symbiotic relationship mm-hmm. . Um, 267 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,560 and there is going to be some opportunistic stuff too because, you know, 268 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,000 plants are making stuff that maybe it has one purpose, 269 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:24,920 but the microbes can use it for something different. 270 00:15:24,930 --> 00:15:28,200 So it uses it for something different and produces some other stuff. 271 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,400 And those different types of molecules have like a happy accident. 272 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,680 The plant could use some of them too. Like sometimes it is more like a, 273 00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:39,960 a free bin than it is something that's like really organized . But, um, 274 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,680 yeah, there can be both happening. 275 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,600 All right. I like this idea of invitation microbes too. Um, alright, 276 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,480 so, so if they are all speaking to each other through subtle chemicals, 277 00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:56,320 um, for, for those of us who are, you know, we're, 278 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,240 we're adding things to our soil all the time, you know, 279 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,920 this fertilizer or that fertilizer or you know, 280 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,640 some kind of soil drench with like an fpj in it or something. Um, 281 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:07,220 it, 282 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:11,960 how easy is it for us to disrupt that 283 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,640 chemical signaling back and forth? Um, just like, let's say that, you know, I'm, 284 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,880 I'm talking with a friend in my yard and a and a plane flies over, you know, 285 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,200 relatively low cause I live near an airport and we just have to like stop 286 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,920 talking for a minute and wait for the plane to fly over. Is there anything that, 287 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,880 that we could potentially do as cultivators that would be so air quotes loud 288 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:36,040 in the RSO sphere that everybody have to talk, 289 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,800 Stop talking for a minute cuz we just dumped something in the soil. 290 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:41,760 See, I think unless it's water, 291 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,760 like probably everything we add is disrupting things a little bit. 292 00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:47,640 It's a bit like getting a shipment, you know, 293 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,240 everybody stops to bring in the delivery kind of thing. 294 00:16:50,590 --> 00:16:54,240 I think that is also true of microbes because they're responding to the, 295 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,040 to whatever you've added as well. Um, but I think, 296 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,000 I think all of them are gonna be disruptive. I think it's more how long, 297 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,600 because like for example, if you're just adding water or some nutrients, 298 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,080 like depending on how light or how much nutrients you're adding, um, 299 00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:10,920 it might be like really short term and they can use up those nutrients pretty 300 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,400 quickly and then they're back to doing whatever. Um, 301 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,760 or maybe it's more long term and you've really altered the soil chemistry enough 302 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,800 that like maybe something dies off or those kind of things. 303 00:17:20,830 --> 00:17:24,120 I think those are all things that could really disrupt. 304 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,000 And I think especially with nutrients, 305 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,440 because a lot of what we're talking about is the plant signaling for nutrients 306 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,760 or something related to nutrition. Um, 307 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,440 that that's probably one of the things that would turn off signals from a plant. 308 00:17:35,470 --> 00:17:39,120 Like they don't need to get it from the microbe if you're providing it. Um, 309 00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:42,600 and I think that that might be something else that would really, I don't know, 310 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,680 that would definitely be a plain overhead situation. Sure. 311 00:17:45,850 --> 00:17:50,200 Um, I wanna take one more step along this, uh, disruption idea, um, 312 00:17:51,230 --> 00:17:55,850 specifically with, with water. I mean, clearly the soil requires, uh, 313 00:17:55,890 --> 00:18:00,650 water so that things can have mobility. Um, but sometimes, 314 00:18:00,650 --> 00:18:05,450 you know, a a cultivator will just overwater terribly and um, 315 00:18:05,710 --> 00:18:10,650 and it can, you know, drown lots of varieties of microbes or, or you know, 316 00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:13,930 cause 'em to cyst up in depending on the, on the variety. Um, 317 00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:18,010 can we drown exudates too to the point where, you know, 318 00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:22,290 we kind of like wipe out a whole, I don't know, generation of 'em and, 319 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:25,290 and the, the soil that needs to, uh, 320 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:27,530 dry out and then the plant needs to restart? 321 00:18:29,030 --> 00:18:31,600 I think, I think yeah, like if you're, if you're like, uh, 322 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,080 watering to run off and stuff like that, 323 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,440 there's certainly stuff that's leaching outta the soil and some things are kept 324 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,920 more by the soil than others. So when we talk about these molecules, um, 325 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,320 a lot of them are charged and some of the charged, like the positively charged, 326 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:44,880 um, 327 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,560 types of molecules tend to stay in soil better than negatively charged ones do. 328 00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:52,240 Um, so you could definitely like flush a lot of things out that way. 329 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,840 But I think the time scale for production of exit dates by the plant, 330 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,680 it can replenish pretty quickly. It's not, um, it's not on like the, you know, 331 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,400 days, weeks, or months sort of situation. 332 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Like those cells are making a lot of stuff really rapidly and some of the 333 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,240 responses can happen within seconds. 334 00:19:07,670 --> 00:19:10,440 I don't think it'll be seconds to make the exit dates again, 335 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,920 but the idea that they might need to make more of them is a pretty quick one. 336 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,880 So I mean, it you might, you might disrupt it like really temporarily. 337 00:19:18,270 --> 00:19:22,480 I think the biggest danger with overwatering is probably damage to the roots or 338 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,000 like promoting the growth of anaerobic bacteria or pathogenic species, 339 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:26,833 that kind of thing. 340 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:30,000 I follow. Um, so, so that was, 341 00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:34,520 we were just talking about the signaling variety and so let's talk about the 342 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,480 nutrition variety and it sounds like some of the signaling ones actually do end 343 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,280 up playing a role in getting nutrition for the plant themselves as well. Um, 344 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,760 what's the difference between like that kind of activity and the ones that we 345 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,440 were putting in the, um, nutritive, um, exudates bucket? 346 00:19:53,470 --> 00:19:56,200 I think those ones are more direct. So I mean, 347 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,320 everything is happening at like a chemical level so the chemistry of the 348 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,320 molecules can interact with the chemistry of the soil and just completely bypass 349 00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:07,160 the microbes. So for example, I work with iron, um, 350 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,080 iron is really hard to get outta the soil. There's lots of it, 351 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,840 but it's kind of like it's locked up like a rock. Um, 352 00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:17,760 and so the plants will actually make molecules that can go and sort of fish 353 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,320 it out from the rock and interact directly with iron molecules and then that is 354 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,520 brought over to the root and it can be taken up that way. 355 00:20:24,550 --> 00:20:27,440 Same of things like nitrogen and phosphorus and things like that. 356 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,760 I think there's certainly like, 357 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,120 either they're making it a more favorable environment for those ions to just 358 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:37,000 kind of like those molecules to just be available for uptake. Um, 359 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:41,240 or they're actually able to like drag it in some, some plants, 360 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,640 those non protein amino acids that I was talking about earlier. Um, 361 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,880 some plants like grasses will make those and they actually just kind of pick up 362 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,440 the iron like a little basket of eggs and actually bring it inside the cell so 363 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:53,760 they can, 364 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,960 they can interact certainly with molecules to signal back and forth to tell them 365 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,560 to make other things and bring it in, 366 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,440 but they can actually just interact with the nutrients directly as, um, 367 00:21:02,570 --> 00:21:05,320 as that molecule and bring it in as well. Does that. 368 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,360 Make sense? It does. So when, um, when cultivators kind of like, uh, 369 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,560 loosely say, you know, oh, this, this fertilizer is, 370 00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:18,200 is plant ready or that fertilizer needs to be, you know, 371 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,040 processed in the r osse before the, the plant can take it is, 372 00:21:22,170 --> 00:21:25,760 is it these exudates that, that we're talking about that are, 373 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,920 are doing that work of coming across, you know, 374 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,640 nutrition or minerals or whatever in the soil and the exudates 375 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,360 are what are, you know, breaking it down and, 376 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,560 and putting it into a form that can interact with the actual root zone? 377 00:21:41,030 --> 00:21:43,200 That's certainly part of it. Yeah, for sure. 378 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,720 And like one group we haven't talked about is, uh, low molecular weight, 379 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,320 organic acids, um, which are like really, really small basic, 380 00:21:51,650 --> 00:21:55,480 um, uh, what's one that I can think of off the top of my head, um, 381 00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:59,920 like Citrix acids and things like that, plants can make those, um, 382 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,480 and that will just make it easier to take up. 383 00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:05,480 Is that sort of what you were talking about? Yes. 384 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,960 Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Um, because you know, 385 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,760 most of the time we just talk about that, uh, you know, you know, 386 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,320 casually using like contemporary language and, 387 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,960 and not the science specific language. So to kinda like, 388 00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:21,290 you know, accidentally come across it, it's kind of kind of exciting. It's like, 389 00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:23,930 oh, this is what we're talking about all the time and we don't know what we're 390 00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:24,810 talking about. That's great. 391 00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:29,490 . And there's definitely like this big component of, of like, 392 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,610 when we talk especially about living soils and things like that, there's, 393 00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:36,130 there's everything at the end of the day is salt, 394 00:22:36,130 --> 00:22:39,850 even if it's from an organic, um, material or something like that. 395 00:22:39,850 --> 00:22:43,970 It's being broken up into these little tiny ions that we call salts. And, um, 396 00:22:43,970 --> 00:22:44,930 and the, the, 397 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,330 I guess it's just a matter of whether it needs help to get to that state or 398 00:22:49,330 --> 00:22:51,050 whether we're providing it as that state. 399 00:22:51,050 --> 00:22:53,490 And any time we're talking about these like exit dates helping, like, 400 00:22:53,490 --> 00:22:56,450 they're basically trying to put it into that form so the plant can take it up. 401 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:01,450 So then, um, the third bucket we were talking about, um, were, 402 00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:05,090 um, I don't know, for lack of a better term, I'll say allopathic, they're, 403 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:08,090 they're, they're kind of like, like, I don't know, almost military. 404 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,170 They where they, 405 00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:13,330 where they go and they are herding the plant enemies. 406 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:14,690 Is that like the general idea? 407 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,770 Sort of, Yeah. Um, 408 00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:20,970 so a allopathic chemicals are these sort of natural herbicides that some, 409 00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:22,850 and not all plants make them, 410 00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:26,570 but some plants make these types of ex dates that basically act as like a 411 00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:29,210 herbicide or a fungicide or something like that to clear the way. 412 00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:30,610 So it's made by the root, 413 00:23:30,670 --> 00:23:35,450 the root's going through the soil and like leaving this material that behind 414 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:39,610 that is really toxic to some plants and that kills off neighboring roots and 415 00:23:39,610 --> 00:23:41,050 that kind of thing and lets it grow better. 416 00:23:41,050 --> 00:23:44,730 And invasive species are often really good at making these kind of things. 417 00:23:44,730 --> 00:23:48,480 And the plants that are here already, uh, don't have any defense against them. 418 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,720 And so it just kills them off. 419 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:53,400 So I know I asked you that question in kind of like a general way. 420 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,920 Have we found cannabis plants making this particular kind of 421 00:23:58,220 --> 00:24:01,640 war making exudate yet? Do we, do we, have we seen that in cannabis? I mean, 422 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,120 I know we're still just learning what cannabis puts out, 423 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,760 but have we found that yet? 424 00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:10,600 Not to my knowledge. They're pretty unique situations when this is a thing. Um, 425 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,560 like for example, walnut trees, black walnut trees. 426 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,120 You cannot grow anything under a black walnut tree for a huge radius because 427 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,320 that's how toxic it is. Um, but cannabis, 428 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,600 you can plant quite a few plants right next to it. 429 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,880 It doesn't seem to do anything. So if it is, it would be on maybe like, 430 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,970 I don't know, maybe it would be antifungal or something like that. But it, 431 00:24:27,970 --> 00:24:31,250 I don't think it actually has anything like this that would kill off plant roots 432 00:24:31,250 --> 00:24:31,570 like. 433 00:24:31,570 --> 00:24:34,370 That. That's a great example because that's actually what I was thinking about. 434 00:24:34,370 --> 00:24:35,530 I was thinking about, oh, maybe, 435 00:24:35,530 --> 00:24:40,530 maybe this is why some of the companion planting that we put with cannabis is 436 00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:42,210 more successful than others. Maybe the, 437 00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:44,930 the cannabis plant is actually trying to choose its neighbors. 438 00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:48,810 It certainly can. And like all of these root things that we're talking about, 439 00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:52,570 like it influences the soil environment and that environment is going to be 440 00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:55,530 hospitable to some other plants and less hospitable to others. 441 00:24:55,530 --> 00:24:57,770 Maybe not because it's directly killing off the plants, 442 00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:01,170 but just because maybe that plant doesn't enjoy those kind of conditions the 443 00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:02,003 same way. Mm-hmm. . 444 00:25:02,270 --> 00:25:06,850 All right. So we talked about the signaling kind and we talked about the, the, 445 00:25:06,850 --> 00:25:10,210 the, the, the allopathic kind and we talked about the, 446 00:25:10,210 --> 00:25:15,010 the processing that are gonna go and, you know, free up nutrition in the soil. 447 00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:18,370 And then I think the last category that we haven't covered is, 448 00:25:18,370 --> 00:25:23,290 is are the ex dates that are themselves nutrition? So, 449 00:25:23,340 --> 00:25:27,210 so what kind, tell us a little bit about the exu dates that the plant puts off. 450 00:25:27,210 --> 00:25:28,890 That is nutrition itself. 451 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,560 These ones are kind of complicated cuz I guess it depends on what, 452 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,480 what isn't necessary, but a lot of things that are carbon based, 453 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,600 cuz carbon is basically what we talk about, like, 454 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,200 like sugars and things like that are what end up being used to make energy. 455 00:25:43,330 --> 00:25:48,280 So I think that a a lot of different types of root egg dates could be 456 00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:52,600 nutritious to other organisms provided they can break them down and use them. 457 00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:57,640 Um, so I think like, um, a lot of the metabolites I work with, 458 00:25:57,970 --> 00:26:02,200 we think might be getting, um, eaten up by bacteria, which are like the, 459 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,640 the acids and things like that. Um, anything that has a sugar attached, 460 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,160 because a lot of these molecules are combinations of these different types of 461 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,240 groups. So you can have an acid that's attached to a sugar, for example. 462 00:26:12,270 --> 00:26:15,000 Like all of those would be possible nutrients. 463 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,440 Since you brought up carbon, um, I want to ask you, uh, uh, a question. 464 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,040 It's kind of a, um, I don't know where this might take us, 465 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,720 is what I wanna say is that, go for it. Last night I was talking to, uh, 466 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,880 soil biologist Layton Morrison on the phone about how excited I was about our 467 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,640 interview today. And he is like, Oh, exos are great. 468 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,440 They're like liquid carbon and, and I wasn't sure what he meant, but I, 469 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,720 I figured I would ask you about him and say, Are exudates like liquid carbon? 470 00:26:43,870 --> 00:26:47,320 A little bit actually. So a lot of, um, like there's, 471 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,120 there's a huge number of atoms out there in elements. Um, 472 00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:56,000 but the ones that are most common in organic chemistry and and life are 473 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,840 carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorous, um, hydrogen and, 474 00:27:00,930 --> 00:27:05,440 uh, sulfur. And so most of these tiny, like it's just those six. 475 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,160 Like there's, and obviously there's other things like iron and, 476 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,280 and plants need manganese and magnesium and all these other different metals. 477 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,040 But like a lot of these molecules that we're talking about today are based off 478 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,000 of those, um, those six. So when we're talking liquid carbon, like the, 479 00:27:20,390 --> 00:27:22,400 a lot of these molecules have a carbon skeleton, 480 00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:27,200 so they're mostly carbon and as long as something can break the carbon apart and 481 00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:32,160 use it in their um, in their biology though, that's food. Does that make sense? 482 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:32,520 Mm-hmm. 483 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,280 . I get it. So, so I want to talk a little bit about the, 484 00:27:36,460 --> 00:27:41,120 the nature of the signaling. Uh, I'm curious to know whether it's more, 485 00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:44,400 more push or pull, um, 486 00:27:45,390 --> 00:27:47,880 when the signaling happens and perhaps it's both. 487 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:52,520 Is it more like putting out a sign that says, you know, 488 00:27:52,830 --> 00:27:57,000 I have cookies for sale if you want cookies come over to me. 489 00:27:57,250 --> 00:28:01,560 Or is it more like placing an order where one, 490 00:28:01,620 --> 00:28:04,680 one side of it, either the microbe or the plant will, 491 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,560 will put out a request to the other side for what they specifically 492 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,393 need? 493 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:11,970 I think it's, 494 00:28:11,970 --> 00:28:15,570 it's sort of both and it really depends on which specific interaction you're 495 00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:18,170 talking about, but I kind of like to think of it more like a conversation, 496 00:28:18,170 --> 00:28:21,770 like there's gonna be some asking questions and like, I need this, 497 00:28:21,770 --> 00:28:26,170 but there's also gonna be like, I'll give you this too. Um, and so I, 498 00:28:26,170 --> 00:28:28,170 and it also happens over multiple cycles. 499 00:28:28,170 --> 00:28:31,810 So it's not just like a one message in one message back sort of thing. 500 00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:34,730 Like these cycles can have multiple signals back and forth. 501 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:35,890 Does that make sense? Yeah. 502 00:28:35,890 --> 00:28:39,770 It does. So where in the plant are the exudates made? 503 00:28:39,770 --> 00:28:43,330 Are they made like in in one particular exit eight factory? 504 00:28:43,380 --> 00:28:47,690 Or is it like made all all over the plant in in many places? 505 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,090 I think, to be honest, I think it's complicated. . 506 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,690 I think that our general understanding of where exit dates are produced is 507 00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:58,570 usually the root tip because that's the growing part of the root and it's the 508 00:28:58,570 --> 00:29:01,490 one that kind of has to be the most responsive to the different things it's 509 00:29:01,490 --> 00:29:03,850 encountering as it's moving through the soil. Um, 510 00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:07,010 as far as like where on the route like it's, 511 00:29:07,010 --> 00:29:10,210 it's gonna be on the surface cells mostly because they're the ones that are 512 00:29:10,410 --> 00:29:13,810 directly next to the mesosphere, which makes sense. Um, 513 00:29:13,810 --> 00:29:17,090 but I think a lot of different types of molecules and signals to make those 514 00:29:17,330 --> 00:29:19,410 molecules can come from all over the plant too. 515 00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:22,930 Like different parts of the root can ask for different things. Um, 516 00:29:22,930 --> 00:29:24,050 different parts of the chute, 517 00:29:24,050 --> 00:29:26,930 like the growing part of the plant that we see all the time. Um, 518 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,210 that can also trigger different things to be made as well. Um, 519 00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:34,170 but I think like the cells right on the outside of the root are the most 520 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:35,370 responsive to that kind of stuff. 521 00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:39,610 And it's different too cuz above that growing zone, um, there might be, 522 00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:41,400 there's still exit dates being produced, 523 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,000 but they might be different because there's different needs if you're already 524 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:44,833 there. 525 00:29:45,170 --> 00:29:49,080 Um, with all the different needs and all the cacophony and how small this is, 526 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,960 I can imagine that there are so many exit dates next to each other, 527 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:53,600 next to each other, 528 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,480 next to each other that they're nearly tripping over each other cuz there's so 529 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,160 much activity happening. Mm-hmm. 530 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,960 Yeah. Of a little bit of a soup. 531 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:04,320 Yeah. . Um, so the, um, 532 00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:08,280 are the ex dates like stuck where they are and they, 533 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,160 they're only mobile if there is water around? 534 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,960 Or do they have some kind of solution for mobility for themselves? 535 00:30:15,870 --> 00:30:19,880 That kind of depends on the chemistry. So like in general, 536 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,960 they're gonna be mostly right next to the root and then they're just going to 537 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,120 kind of diffuse, um, to places where there's less of them. 538 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:29,920 Same as like if you were to dump a bunch of salt into the glass, 539 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,280 eventually the salt would all dissolve into the water, 540 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,920 but they would be most concentrated in the bottom unless you stir it up. 541 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:36,600 So it's kinda like that, 542 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,240 if you imagine the bottom of the glass is like the cells, 543 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,760 so it's being made right at the bottom there and then kind of diffuses up and 544 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,720 eventually it'll get pretty far away, but, but not too far. Um, 545 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,320 and then it depends on the type of molecule because they're mostly water 546 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,760 soluble. Um, but there can be some that are kind of more, um, 547 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,400 lipophilic or like oil loving mm-hmm. that might move differently. 548 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,520 They might be more likely to stay next to the cell that's more like that. Um, 549 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,600 and maybe don't, don't travel as far away from the route. Does that make sense? 550 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,440 Yeah, it does. And, and it doubly makes sense because, um, you know, 551 00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:15,720 the theme of all of your answers have been it's complex and it depends on which 552 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,000 one. And I'm starting to realize that, you know, most of, 553 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,560 most of the generalizations that we might make about 554 00:31:23,710 --> 00:31:27,960 exudates, um, really don't apply to everybody. Like, 555 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,640 like it's hard to make generalizations about exudates. So, so I guess, 556 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,640 I guess we'll kind of like wrap up this first set with, um, 557 00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:39,600 what is it about exudates that make them, 558 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:43,090 uh, be exudates? Because if, 559 00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:47,850 if they all act in different ways and move in different ways and signal 560 00:31:47,850 --> 00:31:49,930 in different ways and do different things, 561 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:55,050 there's gotta be something that they all have in common that makes 562 00:31:55,050 --> 00:31:57,010 them exudate. So what, what is that? 563 00:31:58,090 --> 00:32:01,410 Honestly, it's just location, um, I think is like the, 564 00:32:01,410 --> 00:32:04,890 the biggest thing that connects all of them because as you say, we have, 565 00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:08,050 there's lots of different functions for them. There's lots of different types. 566 00:32:08,050 --> 00:32:10,770 They have lots of different, different jobs and interact with different things. 567 00:32:10,980 --> 00:32:12,770 Um, but they're all outside the route. 568 00:32:12,770 --> 00:32:17,570 They're all made by the plant specifically for being out in the reo vSphere, 569 00:32:17,570 --> 00:32:19,570 and that's the thing that ends up connecting all of them. 570 00:32:20,060 --> 00:32:24,930 So, so the exudates are created outside of the root or, 571 00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:29,530 or it's made in the root and then it's shoved out of the root. 572 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,290 It's made in the root and shoved out. Like I, like I was saying earlier, 573 00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:35,770 like those, those cells that are right on the surface of the route, 574 00:32:35,770 --> 00:32:39,680 they're making them inside and then packaging them and then sending them out 575 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,480 into the REOs. 576 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,280 Weere. Hmm. That kind of reminds me of the, uh, of the, um, 577 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,400 endophytic bacteria that we talked about. Uh, a couple shows back about, 578 00:32:48,620 --> 00:32:51,760 you know, the thing that makes the, makes it an, uh, 579 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,280 a bacteria endophytic is that it spends some amount of its life 580 00:32:56,470 --> 00:33:00,760 inside of the plant. And so it goes, you know, it'll go in and out of the plant. 581 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:05,160 And so perhaps exudates are, you know, 582 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,000 things that start in the roots and then, and then they are pushed out. 583 00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:14,120 Um, is there is does that, Yeah. Does that make sense? I don't know. 584 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:14,960 I'm making it up. Yep, a hundred. 585 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,560 Percent. Yep. Nope, that works for me. 586 00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:18,960 That's as good a definition as any . 587 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,360 All right, great. Okay, let's go ahead and take, uh, 588 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,240 a short break and be right back. Uh, 589 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,800 you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Plant biologist 590 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,520 Sarah Lane. And, you know, 591 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,480 without these advertisers shaping Fire would not happen. 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Whether you are starting with new beds or pots, 682 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,520 or if you want to add some zing to tired soil, 683 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,520 choose dynami to maximize your plant's potential. 684 00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:25,770 Dynami Endo Microrisal inoculate. Welcome back. 685 00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:28,650 You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Shang Golo, 686 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:31,530 and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. 687 00:39:31,860 --> 00:39:36,170 So during the first that we talked a lot about kind of exu exudate mechanics and 688 00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:40,730 and and what they are so that, you know, we could get an idea of, you know, 689 00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:42,690 get our heads wrapped around this, 690 00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:47,570 this interesting chemical that's in the R osse and and what it 691 00:39:47,570 --> 00:39:52,290 does. And so on on, during this set, we're gonna focus more on, um, 692 00:39:52,290 --> 00:39:55,930 on what they actually do and how this, I don't know, 693 00:39:57,490 --> 00:40:00,170 cacophony or symphony, uh, takes place. 694 00:40:00,980 --> 00:40:05,850 So how specific are the signals 695 00:40:06,030 --> 00:40:09,730 for, um, either nutrition or the, 696 00:40:09,730 --> 00:40:12,930 the signals to telling exudates to go out and like, you know, 697 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,210 mind some manganese or something. Um, 698 00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:21,370 are there specific exudates for all of these processes or, 699 00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:24,330 or is it like when, when you tell somebody, Hey, 700 00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:29,290 would you pick up bread? But I don't tell them what kind of bread. 701 00:40:29,290 --> 00:40:33,530 I'm trying to get an idea of how specific the, the requests are. 702 00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:38,450 Oh, another theme of the day, it's complicated. Mm-hmm. , 703 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,850 I think that in some cases it's extremely specific, 704 00:40:42,850 --> 00:40:44,850 especially when we're talking about symbol like, um, 705 00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:49,850 symbiotic relationships like rizo or in legumes or Michi and that kind 706 00:40:49,850 --> 00:40:52,890 of thing. It's like very specific to the point where it's species specific. 707 00:40:52,890 --> 00:40:57,290 It's a specific molecule that has one job and that is to go and signal to mic 708 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,850 fungal, um, interactions and things like that. So it can be that specific, 709 00:41:01,850 --> 00:41:04,730 but there's also some that have sort of more of a, like a broad, 710 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,570 like it has multiple different types of chemistry. Um, 711 00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:11,890 it might be maybe a more complicated molecule where one end does one thing and 712 00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:13,850 the other end does another thing. Um, 713 00:41:14,030 --> 00:41:17,810 and sometimes the plant can make multiple things to do the same job. 714 00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:23,010 So some of the, the tasks that that the exit eights do, especially the, 715 00:41:23,070 --> 00:41:25,250 the ones that are sent out for nutrition, 716 00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:29,490 and probably similarly the ones that are sent out for, uh, like, 717 00:41:29,490 --> 00:41:32,770 like inert things like manganese or iron or whatever, um, 718 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,600 those jobs sound familiar or, 719 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,840 or similar to the role of Mike Iza. And, and you know, 720 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,840 we often talk on this show about how the fungal networks are like super highways 721 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,760 that are, that will go out and source these different, um, 722 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,320 nutritions that are needed by the plant and then kind of, uh, bring them back. 723 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,160 And there's, there's this relationship there. 724 00:41:55,550 --> 00:42:00,120 I would think that since this this task is very similar to the 725 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,880 exudates or at least how they're described, 726 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,760 there's probably a lot of exudate interaction with the fungal 727 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,640 network. Is this true? 728 00:42:08,190 --> 00:42:10,960 Yeah, I, I would say that's true. So I think there's like, 729 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,240 there's two components, like one, the exit dates can do a similar job, 730 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:18,840 but on a much more, um, tiny scale cause they don't travel very far. 731 00:42:18,980 --> 00:42:21,720 And so if they need to go farther out for the nutrients, 732 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:24,600 then the ex dates would interact with the micro is directly. 733 00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,520 And a lot of that is basically initiating infection. 734 00:42:27,610 --> 00:42:30,640 It sounds weird to say infection when I don't mean pathogenic. Mm-hmm. 735 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,720 But essentially the plant has to invite the michie especially, uh, 736 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:37,360 endo michie, uh, to infect it. 737 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,320 And that's a very specific signal that's sent out to interact with the, 738 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,720 with that fungus, um, to allow it to come and join the plant. 739 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:47,560 And it has to be in a situation where the plant would need that. 740 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,440 So I think like if the plant is deficient in phosphorus, for example, 741 00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:54,320 it might interact with Mic I Moore, 742 00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:57,760 whereas if it's not that deficient or if there's plenty of phosphorous next to 743 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:58,000 the root, 744 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,160 maybe it interacts with that less and the ex dates that it makes for itself will 745 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,040 do the job. Does that. 746 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,040 Make sense? Yeah, that does make sense. Um, 747 00:43:04,690 --> 00:43:08,720 is it possible to like overtax the exudate systems? 748 00:43:08,810 --> 00:43:12,360 So if the plant is, you know, making these ex dates and, 749 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,240 and everything that the plant, uh, does, 750 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:20,360 takes some amount of, I don't know, energy or life force or effort, 751 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,160 depending on what level we're looking at, um, 752 00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:26,800 if the exit eights are so busy, um, 753 00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:32,120 can the exit eights be be working so hard that it makes 754 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,840 the plant, uh, less thriving? 755 00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:41,480 I think that kind of depends. So I think if the plant is unhealthy, 756 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,840 that might be true. Um, we often talk about things like a carbon budget though. 757 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,560 So there's a certain amount of carbon that like given amount of plant, 758 00:43:50,850 --> 00:43:52,400 um, can fix. Uh, 759 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,640 and there's a given amount of nutrients it can take up just based on its biology 760 00:43:56,940 --> 00:43:58,920 and physiology. Um, 761 00:43:58,980 --> 00:44:01,960 and so carbon budgeting depend that, 762 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,000 that means that different parts of the plant will be allocating carbon to 763 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,560 different places. So if, for example, it's suffering a massive drip wave, 764 00:44:11,130 --> 00:44:11,480 um, 765 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,240 it will be busy making carbon containing compounds to deal with that 766 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:19,040 mm-hmm. and it might make less ex dates. Um, 767 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,720 but if it's perfectly healthy, all things considered, 768 00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,240 it will make what it needs, um, and it'll make the amount that it needs. Does. 769 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,970 That make sense? Yeah, it does. Um, so it, it, hmm. 770 00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,360 So where, what I was going to ask was that it, you know, 771 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,160 are there things that we can do that would stress the exudate 772 00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:39,520 process and, 773 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,200 and signaling exchange and then you threw the thri thing on the end. 774 00:44:43,210 --> 00:44:47,800 So perhaps the answer to the question that, that I was gonna ask is like, 775 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,560 anything that stresses the plan is going to call on the exit dates to have to do 776 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,680 more work. So don't stress your plant. 777 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,560 Basically. Yeah. 778 00:44:56,610 --> 00:45:01,240 Or it's going to divert the resources of the plant elsewhere. Um, 779 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,560 I think like there's a certain amount, we call it basal or base. 780 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,240 There's a certain amount of like maintenance level things that the plant makes 781 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:09,520 everywhere. Um, 782 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,400 but it will respond to different stresses by taking as much carbon and 783 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,560 nutrients as it can to whatever that is. So if it's, if it's happy and healthy, 784 00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:24,400 then it can like pump up those base levels and everything's great. 785 00:45:24,490 --> 00:45:27,000 If it's really under stress somewhere else, 786 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,520 it might take what it would normally make in the roots. 787 00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:32,840 It might take some carbon from that and and send it somewhere else. 788 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:33,920 And that might mean that you have, 789 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,680 there's still probably gonna be some exudates there, um, 790 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,200 but it'll probably mean that there's less of them. Does that make sense? 791 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,280 Yeah, it does. And so for somebody who's listening to what you're saying, 792 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,400 like me and, and my brain goes to, um, you know, 793 00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:51,520 what can I do to not stress out the exudate creation? 794 00:45:52,030 --> 00:45:56,080 Like that's a, that's nice that I'm thinking about that level of my plant, 795 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,360 but really that's, that's not really necessary. 796 00:45:59,390 --> 00:46:02,680 I really should go up a level of magnitude and, 797 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:07,560 and think about not doing things that stress out the plant and then 798 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,280 just let the exudates manage themselves. 799 00:46:11,220 --> 00:46:12,960 Essentially. Yeah. Like, 800 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,600 I think if you take care of your soil and you take care of your, your plant and, 801 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,960 and they're both in good shape, 802 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,920 then you shouldn't have to worry about it for sure. Okay. I mean, 803 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,680 making sure that your soil is healthy is definitely a big part of it. Um, 804 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,560 making sure the plant isn't, you know, being, as I said, 805 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,640 maed by drips or something like that is also helpful. 806 00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:34,760 I don't think anybody wants that anyway. But, um, those kind of things, um, 807 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,560 making sure it's getting enough water, it's not overwatered, um, you know, 808 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:38,920 all those, 809 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,160 all those things that we generally try and make sure our plants have anyway. 810 00:46:42,370 --> 00:46:46,480 If your plant is healthy, there's not really anything extra that you need to do. 811 00:46:47,010 --> 00:46:48,480 Um, I think we, we've, 812 00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:54,160 I think compost teas are one thing that you can do to kind of help with soil 813 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,520 life and things like that. Um, and that might help with the exit date situation, 814 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,480 but most of the time it's really out of your control. 815 00:47:00,990 --> 00:47:03,760 Well, it's kind of nice to have something that, you know, 816 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,600 we're learning about this process, 817 00:47:05,660 --> 00:47:10,520 but it isn't another thing that we have to like technically worry about, right? 818 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,000 Mm-hmm. , if you do your, if you do your regular, um, 819 00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:17,960 your regular living soil kind of stuff, like, 820 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,640 like this will take care of itself, 821 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,520 which is great because we already have enough to worry about, right. 822 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,180 ? 823 00:47:23,180 --> 00:47:27,840 Yep. Um, we'll talk more about, uh, compost t a little bit later, but, um, 824 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,200 I want to wade into, um, a, 825 00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:37,520 uh, a a pretty fierce debate in the cannabis world. And, um, 826 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:42,000 and I'm a pretty heavy participant in it, and, uh, I have been looking for, um, 827 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,280 someone like you to weigh in on it. So, so I'm gonna, 828 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,000 I'm gonna pull you into this debate, and this is on 20 hour light cycle, so, 829 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,600 Okay. The, the, the debate is generally about, um, 830 00:47:55,310 --> 00:47:58,440 does the 24 hour light cycle, 831 00:47:58,450 --> 00:48:03,360 is it best for the plant or does it, uh, starve the, 832 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:07,600 the soil from nutrients? And, and the idea kind of goes like this, Um, 833 00:48:08,250 --> 00:48:13,200 uh, some growers like to use 24 hours light because it 834 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,200 causes the plant to grow more quickly and you can either, uh, 835 00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:23,160 grow a bigger, high, higher yielding plant, um, 836 00:48:23,230 --> 00:48:27,840 during that time or during, you know, its regular life cycle, um, because, 837 00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:33,030 um, um, you know, because it's just getting more light. Um, 838 00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:37,630 or you can actually shorten the cycle by using more light, which, 839 00:48:37,630 --> 00:48:41,070 you know, allows you to perhaps get in another growing cycle over the year. 840 00:48:41,330 --> 00:48:45,270 And so a lot of people use 24 hours of light. Now, the flip of it, 841 00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:47,190 which happens to be where I stand, 842 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,030 is that no 24 hours of, of, 843 00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:55,470 of light indoors is not going to create the best plant because 844 00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:58,550 while it makes it grow faster, um, 845 00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:03,830 you're not allowing the back and forth of the, the, 846 00:49:03,850 --> 00:49:07,750 the light phase and the dark phase. Both, 847 00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:12,070 both phases are necessary so that the, the, 848 00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:16,550 the exudates and the signaling and all the processes that happen when the, 849 00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:21,110 the plant is awake with the light, it needs to have some dark times. 850 00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:25,990 So the contrasting, uh, signaling and exudates can happen. 851 00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:27,470 So you, you need both. 852 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,990 So all varieties of exudate signaling can happen and, 853 00:49:32,990 --> 00:49:35,950 and all of the varieties of, of nutrition and, 854 00:49:36,010 --> 00:49:40,630 and those things can go back and forth. So I have a feeling that the, 855 00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:44,390 the answer is, is probably somewhere in the middle. Um, 856 00:49:44,810 --> 00:49:48,750 but specifically to this 24 hours of light question, 857 00:49:49,090 --> 00:49:53,590 how does 24 hours of light impact this 858 00:49:53,590 --> 00:49:57,310 relationship between the plant and the mesosphere? 859 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,430 As far as the exudates playing a role? 860 00:50:00,460 --> 00:50:05,390 O that is a spicy debate, isn't it? Yeah. . Um, , I think, again, 861 00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:07,910 to the theme of the day, it's complicated. Um, 862 00:50:07,940 --> 00:50:12,190 I have have not ever seen anybody be able to, 863 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,070 because of the complexity of TheraSphere and all the stuff that's going on 864 00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:16,540 there, 865 00:50:16,540 --> 00:50:20,990 I haven't seen anybody actually be able to put this into a scientific study 866 00:50:21,310 --> 00:50:26,030 where we're able to say definitively, if you give a plant 24 hours of light, 867 00:50:26,030 --> 00:50:28,280 the eggs date suffer. Um, 868 00:50:28,890 --> 00:50:32,040 so it's really in the middle. I think. Um, 869 00:50:32,250 --> 00:50:35,640 there's a couple different things that I can think of off the top of my head. 870 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,160 If, if it's okay if I ramble for a second. 871 00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:39,200 No, please. We want to get into this, so go. 872 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,000 Ahead, . Perfect. Okay. So light cycles, um, light cycles, 873 00:50:44,310 --> 00:50:49,160 I think lots of things are turned on by the plant rather than off when 874 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,720 light is on. And that's because light is driving water, 875 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,160 transport and nutrient uptake, and it's also driving photosynthesis. 876 00:50:56,450 --> 00:51:00,400 So I think that too much dark is as bad as too much light is, 877 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:01,320 if that makes sense. 878 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,450 Like you're seeing the growth and the yield increase because the plant is doing 879 00:51:05,450 --> 00:51:08,290 a lot of stuff during that time. Um, 880 00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:13,330 and there is a circadian clock in plants where there are different things that 881 00:51:13,330 --> 00:51:16,090 happen in the daytime and in the nighttime, 882 00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:19,410 and they actually are different for the root part and the shoot part. 883 00:51:19,410 --> 00:51:22,450 So they actually operate on different clocks, but they do talk to each other. 884 00:51:22,460 --> 00:51:25,170 So, um, I guess where I'm going with this is, 885 00:51:25,260 --> 00:51:28,090 is that there is a circadian rhythm, 886 00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:31,490 but we don't know enough about it to be able to say that, 887 00:51:31,490 --> 00:51:34,570 that having light on the top of the plant, um, 888 00:51:35,020 --> 00:51:39,930 is going to affect the roots in the way that I think this debate kind of 889 00:51:39,930 --> 00:51:42,050 goes. Mm-hmm. . Um, because if we think about it, 890 00:51:42,050 --> 00:51:45,410 the roots are always in the dark. They're never in the light. They're not, like, 891 00:51:45,410 --> 00:51:48,250 there might be a small amount of light that makes it to the, to the root, 892 00:51:48,250 --> 00:51:51,130 but not enough that it should matter. Um, 893 00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:55,970 but they can still sense it a little bit. Um, man, that is, 894 00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:56,610 that is a very. 895 00:51:56,610 --> 00:52:01,410 Deep so, but, but topic. Yeah, it is. And, and so when, if, if the, 896 00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:04,130 maybe I'm thinking too top down about this, 897 00:52:04,130 --> 00:52:08,850 because even though the light doesn't specifically reach their roots, 898 00:52:08,850 --> 00:52:13,610 right, during the light mode, the plant, I'm, 899 00:52:13,610 --> 00:52:17,970 I'm, I think of it as the plant is giving commands through the roots. 900 00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:21,570 And so even though the roots aren't, um, lit up, 901 00:52:21,790 --> 00:52:26,450 the roots are responding to needs and commands from a plant that is 902 00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:31,650 actively photo synthesizing, and then, then in the dark cycle, those, 903 00:52:31,650 --> 00:52:35,490 those commands and needs of the photosynthesis are no longer taking place. 904 00:52:35,490 --> 00:52:39,890 And so I imagine that the, the roles and the tasks of, 905 00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:44,050 of the root zone change when the plant is, is, uh, 906 00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:49,010 is changing modes from photosynthesizing to, you know, the, the, 907 00:52:49,010 --> 00:52:51,450 the processing of nutrients that it does during the dark. 908 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,050 Mm-hmm. . Exactly. I think that's, 909 00:52:54,050 --> 00:52:58,450 and I think the keyword there is change because if they take up a bunch of 910 00:52:58,650 --> 00:53:00,810 nutrients during the, the daytime, 911 00:53:00,810 --> 00:53:04,810 then a lot of those exit dates that are helping with nutrient acquisition should 912 00:53:04,810 --> 00:53:07,610 be active. Like they're, they're actively like, you know, 913 00:53:07,610 --> 00:53:11,050 fishing out the different components that it needs and putting it into the plant 914 00:53:11,050 --> 00:53:13,170 so the plant can continue to grow. Um, 915 00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:17,010 and those would change if the light is gone. And they do have, like, 916 00:53:17,140 --> 00:53:19,610 we even know from like, you know, those green potatoes, 917 00:53:19,610 --> 00:53:22,410 like roots themselves can sense light, um, 918 00:53:22,410 --> 00:53:24,730 both outside like sources of light, 919 00:53:24,730 --> 00:53:28,360 but also the inside sources that we were just talking about, like the light, 920 00:53:28,510 --> 00:53:32,680 like the light that the plant above is sensing is also like notified. 921 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,080 They notify the roots that they need stuff. Right. Um. 922 00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:40,240 I think this is, I think this next question is, is, is the, 923 00:53:40,290 --> 00:53:44,240 is the seal the deal question that I've been looking for? So, 924 00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:46,880 so if the, 925 00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:51,840 if the root zone is doing different tasks when the 926 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:56,680 plant is experiencing light because the plant is asking 927 00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,320 for things involved with, you know, photosynthesis, production during the day, 928 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,000 those types of tasks, and then, and then when the light is gone, 929 00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:09,880 the root zone changes to different sets of tasks. 930 00:54:11,710 --> 00:54:15,520 That would seem to suggest to me that it needs a dark period. 931 00:54:15,690 --> 00:54:20,120 So those dark period tasks can happen. So maybe, maybe I'm right, 932 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,920 but for the wrong reason, for, for a reason. I didn't realize, 933 00:54:23,110 --> 00:54:27,040 I thought that during the dark the exudates would stop. 934 00:54:27,260 --> 00:54:31,160 And maybe that's not it, because exudates happen around the clock. 935 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:36,240 Maybe it's that the exudate and signaling that 936 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:39,560 happens when the plant above is experiencing dark, 937 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:44,320 those differentiated tasks need to have an opportunity to happen to, 938 00:54:44,650 --> 00:54:47,200 to have a thriving plant. Yeah. 939 00:54:47,630 --> 00:54:51,600 Yeah. I think that could be a, a reasonable way to go about it. 940 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,360 I think that there's also two things. 941 00:54:53,550 --> 00:54:57,920 I guess there is dark reactions and they're like evening onset, 942 00:54:58,210 --> 00:55:01,800 um, types of, of things that change in the plant, um, 943 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,440 that are responding to a lessening of light, 944 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:04,800 at least when we're not talking about like, 945 00:55:05,210 --> 00:55:08,760 growing light when we have actually like changes in light over the daytime as 946 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,600 well. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, 947 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,720 your plant on the balcony or whatever. Um, 948 00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:17,770 but there's also light independent reactions that tend to happen kind of at any 949 00:55:17,770 --> 00:55:21,530 time. And what I mean by that is like photosynthesis is light driven. 950 00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:24,730 Like you absolutely have to have light for that whole series of, 951 00:55:24,780 --> 00:55:28,730 of chemistry reactions to happen. Um, whereas the, 952 00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:32,250 like other types of reactions don't need light like that. 953 00:55:32,250 --> 00:55:35,170 So they might be happening 24 7. What I really think, 954 00:55:35,310 --> 00:55:39,770 for my own personal opinion, definitely an opinion, um, is that, 955 00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:45,050 uh, a little bit of darkness helps because one thing that, uh, 956 00:55:45,050 --> 00:55:50,010 light is, is a stressor. It creates all these like, fast happening reactions. 957 00:55:50,010 --> 00:55:51,410 It's quite powerful. 958 00:55:51,410 --> 00:55:54,970 It can make really reactive molecules that if they're present in too much, 959 00:55:54,970 --> 00:55:57,930 they can damage the plant, Um, and those kind of things. 960 00:55:58,020 --> 00:56:02,970 So I think having 24 hours of light constantly would Yeah. 961 00:56:02,970 --> 00:56:06,010 Maybe mean that you don't have the downtime that you need to take care of any 962 00:56:06,010 --> 00:56:09,530 kind of damage that's coming from light and that kind of stuff. So for, 963 00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:13,930 I guess my, my way in on this would be like, a little bit of dark is helpful, 964 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,610 I think. Mm-hmm. , Does that make sense? 965 00:56:15,610 --> 00:56:19,410 Yeah, it does. And I'm grateful to hear it . Um, so, um, 966 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,480 this idea that there can be too much light, um, is, 967 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,680 is interesting because, you know, most of us, or, 968 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,840 or folks who grow indoors anyway, um, you know, while, 969 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,680 while I've been historically an outdoor grower, I've been, 970 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,640 I've been dabbling in indoor just to, to learn new stuff. 971 00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:38,660 And most of the time, 972 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,340 cultivators are looking to blast the plants with as much light as 973 00:56:44,340 --> 00:56:48,420 is possible without bleaching or burning the plant. 974 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,260 And what I'm hearing from you is that there really is a, uh, 975 00:56:53,260 --> 00:56:58,100 a top end of how much light we necessarily wanna give the 976 00:56:58,100 --> 00:57:02,260 plant. Um, because there is, there is too much, there's a, there's a top level. 977 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,860 Yes, there is. Um, I think especially with like, I, 978 00:57:05,860 --> 00:57:09,820 I have most of my experiences is growing inside. Um, 979 00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:11,620 and I think there's different things to think about, 980 00:57:11,620 --> 00:57:13,380 cuz you can definitely have too much light inside, 981 00:57:13,380 --> 00:57:15,460 but it's not like an overall amount of light. 982 00:57:15,460 --> 00:57:18,380 There's all these focal lengths that come with bulbs and it kind of, 983 00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:21,900 it's like shining a laser, you know, the magnifying glass on the, you know, 984 00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:24,500 something flammable in the, in the sun kind of thing. Like, 985 00:57:24,550 --> 00:57:27,180 it focuses all the light from the bulb to a single point. 986 00:57:27,180 --> 00:57:30,580 And if you're growing in that point, it's really strong, but like, 987 00:57:30,580 --> 00:57:33,300 just for that little area, and that's too much light, 988 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,700 but there's so much sun out there, 989 00:57:35,810 --> 00:57:39,700 I don't think any indoor bulb at this point has ever gotten to the point where 990 00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:42,540 it can compete with the sun. Um, it's just too dim. 991 00:57:42,540 --> 00:57:46,260 The spectrum isn't strong enough and a lot of the damaging wavelengths that we, 992 00:57:46,260 --> 00:57:51,220 we think of with light like uv, uh, B or C are just not present, 993 00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:53,580 uh, in the same quantity unless it's like, you know, 994 00:57:53,580 --> 00:57:56,100 a UVC light or something like that. Does that make sense? Yeah. And. 995 00:57:56,100 --> 00:57:56,420 So. 996 00:57:56,420 --> 00:58:00,100 There's, there's too much point light and then there's too much general light. 997 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:04,700 . Yeah, I was making an overgeneralization about the too much like a, 998 00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:08,420 as if it was all sunlight. But that's, that's true. Like all, you know, 999 00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:12,940 no matter what kind of bulb, uh, we are talking about, um, 1000 00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:18,100 it is, it is some degree less than sunshine. And so that's probably those, 1001 00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:23,100 those that gap between sunshine and whatever the personality 1002 00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:27,540 of the bulb is, that's probably where the hitch and the giddy up is. Right. 1003 00:58:27,540 --> 00:58:32,020 Is is somewhere in what the bulb is lacking when compared to the sun. 1004 00:58:32,330 --> 00:58:34,780 Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I think in indoors, 1005 00:58:34,780 --> 00:58:36,940 like most of the light stress that I've seen is like, 1006 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,980 you turn the lights on right after you spray something on the plants and you get 1007 00:58:39,980 --> 00:58:43,220 some like lens burning where the lights just kind of magnified and focused at a 1008 00:58:43,220 --> 00:58:45,940 point. So you get like little point burns outside, 1009 00:58:45,940 --> 00:58:49,620 you can definitely see a lot more types of light damage and stress because it's 1010 00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:51,500 so bright out. And if it's hot too, 1011 00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:55,380 like the plant just has a really hard time managing that level of light in, 1012 00:58:55,380 --> 00:58:58,180 in that those poor little photo systems get a little stressed . 1013 00:58:58,180 --> 00:58:59,700 Mm-hmm. , when, 1014 00:58:59,700 --> 00:59:03,940 when we talked on the phone the other day kind of preparing for this discussion, 1015 00:59:04,350 --> 00:59:07,500 um, you used a term that I, I really liked. 1016 00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:10,660 And I don't know if it's if it's it's a scientific term or if it's just 1017 00:59:10,660 --> 00:59:13,540 something that you were using to describe to me because you, you've, 1018 00:59:13,540 --> 00:59:17,220 you used such fantastic examples, but you used this phrase, uh, 1019 00:59:17,290 --> 00:59:21,560 free living microbes and, and, and I remember talking to you, I, 1020 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:22,880 I remember like, Oh wow, I never, 1021 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:27,200 I never really thought about microbes that were in the soil but weren't really 1022 00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:29,400 interacting with the plant. 1023 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,280 Would you just talk about free living microbes for a moment? 1024 00:59:32,710 --> 00:59:33,560 Absolutely. 1025 00:59:33,570 --> 00:59:38,200 So essentially when we think about ecology and like what's happening in the, 1026 00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,200 in the soil, there's, 1027 00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:42,480 we definitely talk a lot about microbes that interact with the plant, 1028 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,320 but there's a couple different levels they can do that. 1029 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,920 There's symbiosis where they need each other, 1030 00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:53,160 and then there's kind of like opportunistic sort of interactions where 1031 00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:57,480 they don't, So when I talk about free living microbes, um, 1032 00:59:57,490 --> 01:00:01,160 we generally use that term to mean things that kind of, that, that are just, 1033 01:00:01,210 --> 01:00:05,400 they're in the soil too. They don't have to be next to a plant. They don't, 1034 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,360 like if you remove the plant, they go on living, they, they do their thing and, 1035 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,120 and they, they, it's not the same. And if anything, 1036 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,280 like maybe the plant needs them more than they need it, if that makes sense. 1037 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,880 Mm-hmm. , but if they're free living, they, 1038 01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,400 they can complete their entire life cycle, um, without a plant, 1039 01:00:21,690 --> 01:00:22,840 if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. 1040 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:23,800 . So, 1041 01:00:23,970 --> 01:00:27,120 so that also brings up an interesting question about the opposite. So, 1042 01:00:27,130 --> 01:00:30,520 so you said, Oh, there are some of these microbes that, 1043 01:00:30,550 --> 01:00:34,760 that wouldn't exist without the plant. Um, is, 1044 01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:36,520 is this one of the reasons why it is, 1045 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:41,360 it is so helpful to the cannabis plant to have other companion plants 1046 01:00:41,630 --> 01:00:46,520 around because, uh, these, these other plants are, 1047 01:00:46,900 --> 01:00:49,840 are helping support these, these, uh, 1048 01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:54,480 free living microbes and it just makes the entire r osse more 1049 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,000 complex and more thriving and more abundant? 1050 01:00:58,010 --> 01:01:02,640 Oh, I'm sure that's true. Yeah, because like cover plants for example, 1051 01:01:02,780 --> 01:01:05,800 essentially what they're trying to do, um, is, 1052 01:01:05,850 --> 01:01:10,000 is improve the soil life. And that happens either through, uh, 1053 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,520 like providing a matrix, 1054 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,880 like all those roots provide basically housing in a lot of ways, 1055 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,840 like a little scaffold for different things to live on and in and under. Um, 1056 01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:23,480 but it also might help with, for example, maintaining humidity longer. Um, 1057 01:01:23,490 --> 01:01:27,760 so that if there's microbes in the soil that prefer to be wet all the time and 1058 01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,080 they don't like drying out, then you might have that layer is, 1059 01:01:31,090 --> 01:01:34,960 is happier because there's a plant there keeping the moisture locked in. Um, 1060 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,600 maybe they don't like a lot of light and they're kind of shading the surface of 1061 01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:38,320 the soil a little bit. 1062 01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:42,000 So maybe the fungus can get a little bit more close to the surface or something 1063 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:42,880 like that. Like I, 1064 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,400 I'm sure there's dozens of different things that a companion plant, 1065 01:01:45,540 --> 01:01:48,360 and we also plant like, uh, I personally plant, uh, 1066 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,400 clover because it tends to also, 1067 01:01:50,810 --> 01:01:55,520 it has an interesting relationship with bacteria that actually lets it take on 1068 01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,640 and fix more nitrogen than a lot of other plants do. 1069 01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,880 But it also brings the benefit of having that nitrogen fixing relationship with 1070 01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,600 these bacteria that also benefit plants around it. So the, 1071 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,720 the cannabis plant itself doesn't do this, 1072 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,360 but the fact that there's a plant near it that does improves the nutrient 1073 01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:13,320 nutrients in the soil. 1074 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,920 Mm-hmm. , Um, one of my favorite reasons, and the, 1075 01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,760 and the first reason I started companion planting, um, uh, 1076 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:24,200 for my cannabis is I had a, earlier in, in my cultivation history, 1077 01:02:24,310 --> 01:02:29,200 I had a, a tendency to water incorrectly. I was doing, uh, too much, 1078 01:02:29,740 --> 01:02:33,280 not often enough. So I needed to water mm-hmm. less, more often, 1079 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,880 but less. And, um, I had a tendency to get, uh, 1080 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,280 hydrophobic soil. And, and for folks who aren't familiar with that, 1081 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:46,240 that means that the, the top of your soil container, um, gets kind of hard. 1082 01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,560 And then when you go and you, you hand water, 1083 01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:51,360 the water just kind of slides off and, 1084 01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:56,000 and goes down the side instead of actually, um, soaking into the soil. 1085 01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,200 And this happened to me all the time. And, um, I eventually learned, uh, 1086 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:01,360 during the shaping fire, 1087 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:06,200 water and watering episode that if you use a, um, a, 1088 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,360 a companion plant or, or in this case, what we would consider a, a cover crop, 1089 01:03:10,810 --> 01:03:15,760 um, with that has lots of roots, say, for example, a clover or, or, you know, 1090 01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:17,480 some types of grasses, um, 1091 01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:22,400 they not only can provide like the, the, 1092 01:03:22,940 --> 01:03:24,600 the canopy, if you will, 1093 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,360 to create this little moisture vapor area between the tops of its 1094 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,520 leaves and the soil. So the soil just generally stays more moist. 1095 01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:34,533 But also, 1096 01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:38,880 I was going for the fact that all of these roots that go down in the soil all 1097 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,880 are providing like small tunnels for the water to actually go into the 1098 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,320 soil itself. And, you know, 1099 01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:51,440 I actually solved my poor watering just by adding, um, a, 1100 01:03:51,470 --> 01:03:56,320 a, a multiple, uh, root, uh, plant. And then that, 1101 01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:57,280 that problem just went away. 1102 01:03:58,190 --> 01:03:59,530 Yep. That's, and, 1103 01:03:59,570 --> 01:04:02,650 and the other wonderful thing that you're doing is you're also introducing 1104 01:04:02,650 --> 01:04:07,170 different types of exit dates, which improves your, your soil life. Um, 1105 01:04:07,180 --> 01:04:10,090 so then you're just getting, it's just more all the way around. 1106 01:04:10,450 --> 01:04:14,970 . Uh, so, so are there, are we aware of any, um, you know, 1107 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:19,730 either, either companion plants in, in cannabis? Of course we use these, 1108 01:04:19,980 --> 01:04:24,250 we use the idea of companion plants to often be the idea of like a bigger plant 1109 01:04:24,250 --> 01:04:27,130 that's we're planting nearby like a, you know, like a, 1110 01:04:27,130 --> 01:04:31,010 like a ca cabbage or potatoes underneath it or whatever. And then, 1111 01:04:31,010 --> 01:04:34,690 and then we kind of use the term cover crop, even though we, 1112 01:04:34,690 --> 01:04:36,410 most of us in cannabis use that term, 1113 01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:39,850 not how it's traditionally used to talk about, um, 1114 01:04:40,450 --> 01:04:44,930 lower plants, that there's a lot of them. Um, 1115 01:04:45,710 --> 01:04:49,050 I'm kind of backing into this question, but what I want to ask you is, um, 1116 01:04:49,050 --> 01:04:53,530 are there plants that you are aware of that share, um, 1117 01:04:54,180 --> 01:04:55,690 exudate flavors, 1118 01:04:55,690 --> 01:05:00,490 complimentary exudate flavors with cannabis plants that we should grow 1119 01:05:00,770 --> 01:05:05,690 about can around our cannabis plants simply because they increase 1120 01:05:06,270 --> 01:05:11,250 the vibrancy of the kinds of nutrition our cannabis plant is going to 1121 01:05:11,250 --> 01:05:13,010 want, thus suggesting, Oh, 1122 01:05:13,230 --> 01:05:17,960 you should grow these plants because it too will attract the kinds of 1123 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,760 nutrition and, and make it more buffet style for your cannabis plant? 1124 01:05:22,580 --> 01:05:24,600 Ooh. I think that the, 1125 01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,440 the honest answer to that one is I don't think we're anywhere near that level of 1126 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,840 detail in the exit date, Uh, scientific realm, 1127 01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:36,640 like even just to identify exit dates is super challenging cuz you can't, 1128 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,880 you can't even grow them in soil to be able to collect them. Um, 1129 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:41,400 so all of my experiments, for example, 1130 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,360 are done in a fog ponic setup that I made, um, so that I, 1131 01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,960 I can actually access the roots without the soil because of course otherwise you 1132 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:52,040 capture all the exit dates from all the bacteria too. Um, so I, 1133 01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,160 I don't think that we could get that, that specific, 1134 01:05:55,420 --> 01:05:59,360 but I do know that they've been doing a lot of interesting research with, um, 1135 01:05:59,830 --> 01:06:04,240 with crops and companion plants and crops and the running theme there is 1136 01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:08,400 usually, um, something that fixes nitrogen, um, 1137 01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,880 really helps because it brings in not only the, the nitrogen fixing aspect, 1138 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,280 which is usually the limiting factor in plant growth, um, 1139 01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,960 but it also brings all of its, its symbiotic bacteria with it. 1140 01:06:20,700 --> 01:06:24,840 But I think as long as you, as long as you have, uh, a cover crop as, 1141 01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:29,240 as we were just talking about, that's improving your soil, um, texture or soil, 1142 01:06:29,650 --> 01:06:34,520 um, health in general, I think that you're good. And so for me, like the, 1143 01:06:34,900 --> 01:06:39,520 the anecdotal answer would be something like, uh, we plant, uh, 1144 01:06:39,750 --> 01:06:42,880 clover partly for the nitrogen fixing, um, 1145 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,640 but we also plant things like basil or, um, 1146 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,760 marigolds that can act like trap plants to kind of give us a sense of, 1147 01:06:49,810 --> 01:06:53,960 of whether or not we have pest things to worry about, um, 1148 01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:54,880 and that kind of thing. Or, 1149 01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,640 or anything that helps like pollinators come in and that kind of thing. Cuz uh, 1150 01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,960 that usually, I dunno, more life is better usually. Does. 1151 01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,160 That make sense? Yeah, I follow that. You know, this, the, 1152 01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:06,040 the example that you gave, um, 1153 01:07:06,110 --> 01:07:10,040 I had not really considered how difficult your research must be because I 1154 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,640 figured there was just some way for you to, you know, grab the exu dates, 1155 01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,240 you know, you know, scrape 'em off, scrape, 1156 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,160 pull up a plant and scrape some off the, the roots, you know, that were in soil. 1157 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,520 But, but that's right. There's all everybody else who's in there too, 1158 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:24,680 especially the bacteria mm-hmm. , 1159 01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,080 they're all laying out exudates too. 1160 01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,160 And so it's just like a mess and you can't tease them out. 1161 01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,920 And so you're using this fog ponic system, so the, 1162 01:07:33,970 --> 01:07:38,360 so the roots are just dangling and there's not soil life 1163 01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,880 interacting with it. So in, in an odd way, you're, 1164 01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,920 you're like an exudate rancher. Like you've got to you, you've gotta, 1165 01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,040 you've gotta do this ponant so that you can collect them first. 1166 01:07:49,660 --> 01:07:52,440 Yep, that's correct. Yeah, we have other couple other ways, 1167 01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,240 but they're all like, really, they're all complicated. Um, 1168 01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:00,440 you can do sterile culture like, um, tissue culture, um, 1169 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,280 but then the necessity of that is you have to have a plant you can grow in 1170 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,520 tissue culture. And if I was working with, with, um, cannabis, 1171 01:08:07,630 --> 01:08:11,440 I think it would be easier because it, it does grow in tissue culture, uh, 1172 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,200 which would be nice. And then you can just sample the media and, 1173 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,040 and extract the me the ex dates from the media. Um, 1174 01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,200 but there's lots and lots of plants out there that don't like tissue culture 1175 01:08:21,310 --> 01:08:24,880 that won't grow in a little tiny box, um, or, or trees, 1176 01:08:25,030 --> 01:08:27,280 some of which I'm working with right now that, 1177 01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:31,240 that just defy defy hydroponics in general. So yeah, 1178 01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,600 you gotta get clever about it for sure. And it is very much like ranching, 1179 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:35,440 . 1180 01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:38,560 . Right on. All right, cool. Um, 1181 01:08:38,570 --> 01:08:41,240 so let's go ahead and take our second break, uh, 1182 01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,640 during the third set Stick with us because we're gonna be talking about, um, uh, 1183 01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,080 uh, salt based nutrients and exudates hydroponics and exudates and uns sulfur 1184 01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,360 molasses in and exit eights. So come on back. Um, 1185 01:08:53,900 --> 01:08:57,480 you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is plant biologist 1186 01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:58,360 Sarah Lane. 1187 01:09:01,670 --> 01:09:05,380 As cannabis regulations become more demanding and consumers become more 1188 01:09:05,380 --> 01:09:05,940 educated, 1189 01:09:05,940 --> 01:09:09,420 it is increasingly important to avoid the use of chemical pesticides when 1190 01:09:09,420 --> 01:09:10,253 cultivating cannabis. 1191 01:09:10,690 --> 01:09:14,220 Beneficial insects have been used for decades by the greenhouse, 1192 01:09:14,220 --> 01:09:16,500 vegetable and ornamental will plant industry. 1193 01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,860 And today many cannabis cultivators are moving from sprays and chemicals to 1194 01:09:20,860 --> 01:09:25,100 beneficial insects. 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Visit cot.com, choose your country, 1207 01:10:15,060 --> 01:10:16,940 and get detailed information. 1208 01:10:17,210 --> 01:10:21,300 That's cobert K o p p e r t.com. 1209 01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:25,620 For the most UpToDate cannabis related biological control information, 1210 01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:30,700 you can also check their Instagram at Cobert Canada. You know, 1211 01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:33,740 getting away from pesticides is good for health and good for business, 1212 01:10:33,740 --> 01:10:38,020 and Cobert is ready to help. 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Visit magical butter.com today 1241 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,520 After you've caught up on the latest shaping fire episodes. 1242 01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,760 Do sometimes wish there was more cannabis education available to learn? Well, 1243 01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:30,370 we got you. 1244 01:12:30,370 --> 01:12:34,440 Shaping Fire has a fabulous YouTube channel with content not found on the 1245 01:12:34,440 --> 01:12:37,880 podcast. When I attend conventions to speak or moderate panels, 1246 01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,560 I always record them and bring the content home for you to watch. 1247 01:12:40,860 --> 01:12:43,840 The SHEO Los YouTube channel has world class speakers, 1248 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,480 including Zoe Sigmans lecture, Understanding Your Endocannabinoid System, 1249 01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:49,560 Kevin Jory of Wonderland Nursery, 1250 01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,240 talking about breeding cannabis for the best terpene profile. 1251 01:12:52,510 --> 01:12:55,760 Frenchie Canoles Lost Art of the Hasian presentation. 1252 01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,160 Nicholas Mamu on Regenerative and Polyculture cannabis growing Dr. 1253 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:03,000 Sunil Agarwal on the history of cannabis medicine around the world. 1254 01:13:03,270 --> 01:13:08,040 Eric Velosi and Josh Rutherford on Solventless Extraction and Jeff Lowen 1255 01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:11,560 Fells on the Soil Food Web. There are several presentations from Dr. 1256 01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,560 Ethan Russo on terpenes and the endocannabinoid system too. While there, 1257 01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:20,000 be sure to check out the three 10 Part Shaping Fire Session series one with 1258 01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:23,680 Kevin Jory, one with Dr. Ethan Russo, and one with Jeff Lowen Fells, 1259 01:13:23,860 --> 01:13:27,600 and even my own presentations on how to approach finding your dream job in 1260 01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,320 cannabis and why we choose cannabis business even though the risks are so high 1261 01:13:31,770 --> 01:13:35,040 as of today, there's over 200 videos that you can check out for free. 1262 01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:39,920 So go to youtube.com/shang golo or click on the link in the newsletter. 1263 01:13:40,370 --> 01:13:44,480 Welcome back, you are listening to Shaping Fire and I am your host Shangle Los, 1264 01:13:44,480 --> 01:13:47,440 and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. 1265 01:13:48,210 --> 01:13:52,520 So let's talk about a couple of the applications of, 1266 01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,120 of exudates, um, uh, with, 1267 01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,920 with with common situations that we deal with as cannabis cultivators. 1268 01:13:59,460 --> 01:14:02,480 And um, the first one I want to talk about with you, Sarah, is, 1269 01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:07,080 is salt based nutrients. So, you know, on this show, we, we generally, 1270 01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:11,720 not generally, we very specifically support living soil, um, you know, 1271 01:14:11,790 --> 01:14:14,640 a biomimicry of, of, you know, 1272 01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:17,280 the natural world and, um, 1273 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:22,080 are are not big fans of salt based nutrients generally, but, 1274 01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,160 you know, I always know I need to give them a, 1275 01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:26,440 a fair shake when it comes to science cuz that's, 1276 01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:31,440 that's really what we're listening to is the science not my own biases. So, um, 1277 01:14:31,440 --> 01:14:33,520 I'm curious to know, um, 1278 01:14:33,670 --> 01:14:37,360 what kind of a relationship that that using, you know, 1279 01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:42,000 bottled salt based nutrients has on the exudates, 1280 01:14:42,210 --> 01:14:45,760 um, and their ability to communicate and the, and the community I guess. 1281 01:14:47,060 --> 01:14:48,710 I think that's, um, 1282 01:14:49,580 --> 01:14:52,830 I think most of the time when we're talking salt based nutrients, 1283 01:14:52,830 --> 01:14:55,910 like it doesn't really go very well in living soil, 1284 01:14:55,910 --> 01:14:59,150 which is my preferred method of growing too. So, um, 1285 01:14:59,150 --> 01:15:02,950 we're on the same page there. I think, um, with salt based nutrients, 1286 01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:05,590 there's sort of two things that happen. One is, um, 1287 01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:09,590 like we were talking about earlier, it can really disrupt the signaling. Um, 1288 01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:10,670 or at least that's my, 1289 01:15:10,670 --> 01:15:14,990 my theory because you're introducing a huge amount of nutrients to the plant, 1290 01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:19,150 um, that it would've been making all these wonderful little ex dates to try and 1291 01:15:19,150 --> 01:15:23,230 tease out from, as we were saying earlier, microbes or, or the soil itself. Um, 1292 01:15:23,230 --> 01:15:24,150 and you're just flooding it. 1293 01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:28,710 So I think that it would pretty significantly disrupt the ex date 1294 01:15:29,020 --> 01:15:32,590 type, at least, of what's being produced. Um, 1295 01:15:32,590 --> 01:15:36,390 the other thing it does is it really kind of messes around with the chemistry of 1296 01:15:36,390 --> 01:15:39,870 the soil. So, um, like if you're only feeding salt based nutrients, 1297 01:15:39,870 --> 01:15:42,710 you end up with salt buildup and stuff like that. And that can happen in a, 1298 01:15:42,710 --> 01:15:43,950 in a living soil system too. 1299 01:15:44,170 --> 01:15:48,830 And usually those conditions aren't really conducive to microbial life or root 1300 01:15:48,830 --> 01:15:51,990 health and you end up just getting a lot of compounding problems. 1301 01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:56,230 Um, so, so it's, it's less about, um, 1302 01:15:56,450 --> 01:16:00,190 the salt based nutrients somehow masking the, 1303 01:16:00,190 --> 01:16:03,990 the chemical signatures or anything that it's just that, um, the, 1304 01:16:03,990 --> 01:16:06,790 the people who are normally, uh, uh, 1305 01:16:06,820 --> 01:16:10,430 giving off the exu dates and receiving the exu dates, um, 1306 01:16:10,430 --> 01:16:11,950 they're generally just not there. 1307 01:16:12,740 --> 01:16:14,990 Yeah. Like I think, I think the plant, if, 1308 01:16:14,990 --> 01:16:18,990 if it's got all the nutrients it needs, it's gonna put its resources elsewhere. 1309 01:16:19,130 --> 01:16:22,390 And um, and I think if you're compromising the soil life at all, 1310 01:16:22,390 --> 01:16:26,470 then a lot of that signaling would would be as, as we were saying earlier, 1311 01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:27,910 probably dampened would be my guess. 1312 01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:30,510 Mm-hmm. dampen, that's a good word. Yeah. Um, you know, 1313 01:16:30,510 --> 01:16:32,750 a lot of the, um, you know, 1314 01:16:32,750 --> 01:16:37,630 a lot of people are playing with soilless mediums that are increasingly 1315 01:16:37,630 --> 01:16:40,230 more and more, um, uh, you know, 1316 01:16:40,230 --> 01:16:44,070 cocoa based coco quo to the point that some folks are just like, like they, 1317 01:16:44,070 --> 01:16:46,910 they don't have soil in their substrate. Right. It's, it's, 1318 01:16:46,910 --> 01:16:50,270 it's not really hydroponic, it, it's, but it's just, uh, it's, 1319 01:16:50,270 --> 01:16:53,390 it's cocoa and it's nutrients. And, um, 1320 01:16:53,670 --> 01:16:55,710 I'm curious if these, 1321 01:16:55,710 --> 01:16:59,710 these types of coco and soilless mediums, um, 1322 01:16:59,710 --> 01:17:02,150 have any impact on the, 1323 01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,990 on the signaling capacity of these exudates? Um, I, 1324 01:17:06,990 --> 01:17:11,280 I guess what I'm asking is, is the, is the soil component, 1325 01:17:12,210 --> 01:17:12,820 um, 1326 01:17:12,820 --> 01:17:17,680 key to the ability of the exudates to be able to do their 1327 01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:18,513 job? 1328 01:17:18,790 --> 01:17:20,360 That's actually a really good question. 1329 01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:23,760 And I was just thinking about that cuz of what your previous question was. 1330 01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:24,840 There are circumstances, 1331 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:29,160 so I think the real problem I have with so salate nutrients is if it's in 1332 01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,120 combination with living soil, because they're in living soil, 1333 01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:36,800 you're relying on this microbial life to help provide nutrients and it just gets 1334 01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,960 all out of whack. But like for example, in my research, 1335 01:17:39,990 --> 01:17:43,880 I have to use salt based nutrients because I need a very defined set of 1336 01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:48,200 nutrients that, um, to be able to repeat my experiments. Um, 1337 01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,560 and in that case, with the fog pons and that kind of thing, it's, 1338 01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,080 it's not necessarily like the ex dates are going away, 1339 01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,920 it's just that the types of ex dates that I'm looking at are nutrient based and 1340 01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,920 not microbial based. So I don't notice a difference. And in that case, 1341 01:18:01,030 --> 01:18:03,560 I think in coco or peat or something like that, 1342 01:18:03,730 --> 01:18:06,680 as long as you're not relying on the bacteria that, or, 1343 01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:10,920 or fungus that are present to assist you in the nutrients, 1344 01:18:10,970 --> 01:18:12,720 it wouldn't make as much of a difference. 1345 01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,880 I I think it would change the expression of the ex dates though. 1346 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,320 Like the types of ex dates that are produced would be different. 1347 01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:21,640 Does that make sense? Yeah. Cause you're still gonna be producing them. 1348 01:18:21,740 --> 01:18:26,320 And it's really interesting for you as a living soil cultivator at home, 1349 01:18:26,460 --> 01:18:30,920 but needing to use, uh, salts in the lab, um, 1350 01:18:30,950 --> 01:18:35,120 that puts you in a unique position to be, um, you know, 1351 01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,280 comparing and contrasting them. Um, let's talk about like, if, if, 1352 01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:44,080 if you're using a, if you're using salt fertilizers in a, 1353 01:18:44,180 --> 01:18:49,120 you know, in a soilless medium like cocoa and you just said that 1354 01:18:49,570 --> 01:18:52,760 if you were in that kind of environment, it wouldn't, 1355 01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:54,800 that the exudates wouldn't be there. It, 1356 01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:59,000 it would be that there would be nutrition based exudates, um, 1357 01:18:59,100 --> 01:19:02,920 you would just be changing the variety of exu dates that are there, 1358 01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,840 that are being expressed. My question would be, 1359 01:19:07,010 --> 01:19:11,810 would that impact how the plant expresses itself? 1360 01:19:11,810 --> 01:19:16,450 It, it seemed to me that if we are, are changing the exudates that are, 1361 01:19:16,990 --> 01:19:21,850 you know, part of the cacophony in the soil that we're gonna get, you know, uh, 1362 01:19:21,850 --> 01:19:25,330 different colors on the plant, different terpene profile, 1363 01:19:25,330 --> 01:19:27,890 maybe a difference in quality of thriving. 1364 01:19:27,890 --> 01:19:31,650 It seems like the plant would express itself at the top level. Is there, 1365 01:19:31,650 --> 01:19:32,650 is there any weight to that? 1366 01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:34,410 Yeah, I think so. 1367 01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:38,650 I think like if we were to go back to our bizarre metaphor from earlier, 1368 01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,690 when you, when you feed salt based nutrients, 1369 01:19:41,690 --> 01:19:44,570 it's kind of like putting in a really big box store or something like that. 1370 01:19:44,570 --> 01:19:47,770 It really changes the flavor of what's happening in that location. 1371 01:19:48,310 --> 01:19:52,570 And I think that changes the personality of, of the soil. 1372 01:19:52,570 --> 01:19:56,810 And I think like to borrow a, I don't know, personifying my soil now, 1373 01:19:56,810 --> 01:20:00,850 but you know, like the, like the, the conversations that are happening, um, 1374 01:20:00,850 --> 01:20:04,170 and the types of players that are there changes pretty significantly. 1375 01:20:04,170 --> 01:20:08,880 And I don't doubt that that would also change the, the plant itself. 1376 01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:10,240 The plant is very flexible. 1377 01:20:10,630 --> 01:20:15,320 It's going to do its best to grow and to thrive in whatever circumstances that 1378 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:17,440 you put it in. But when you change those circumstances, 1379 01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:21,680 it's going to change itself to fit. And so, um, and, 1380 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,960 and I know lots of people that anecdotally say that terpenes are different and, 1381 01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:29,960 and like cannabinoid profiles are different when you grow in living soil and 1382 01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:32,200 stuff like that. Whereas like when you're feeding salt based, 1383 01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:36,160 maybe you're going for weight and the plant is forced into putting more weight 1384 01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,800 on cuz it's got these extra nutrients and maybe it makes less. 1385 01:20:39,020 --> 01:20:41,440 And I don't know that for sure cause I haven't studied it myself, 1386 01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:44,480 but I think that anecdotally I've seen that happen mm-hmm. 1387 01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,120 . Right on. So, so even, 1388 01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,880 even though you haven't seen the science for it, it makes, 1389 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:50,240 it makes intuitive sense. 1390 01:20:50,430 --> 01:20:53,040 Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I would say so. Right. And like, 1391 01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:57,200 one of the reasons I like living soil is because it sort of gives the plant its 1392 01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:00,120 own options. Like it's, it's complex. It's, 1393 01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:04,520 it's kind of a fun way to think about ecology too in, in a pot, you know? Um, 1394 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:04,960 but it, 1395 01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,480 the plant is really able to pick and choose a little better than kind of, 1396 01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:10,640 I don't know, force feeding salt, if that makes sense. 1397 01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:15,080 Yeah, for sure. And we talk a lot on, on shaping fire about the importance of, 1398 01:21:15,460 --> 01:21:15,960 you know, 1399 01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:20,840 a a a complex and thriving mesosphere to have a complex and thriving 1400 01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:25,440 plant so that you have a complex and delightful terpene profile 1401 01:21:25,540 --> 01:21:30,440 and, and the more you're simplifying what is in, uh, 1402 01:21:30,700 --> 01:21:32,640 the pot, say for example, 1403 01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:37,040 using a cocoa soilless medium and salt based nutrients, um, 1404 01:21:37,430 --> 01:21:40,160 I think the example you used was put just putting 'em in a big box store, 1405 01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:42,360 so you're gonna get big box turfs out of it mm-hmm. 1406 01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,040 and not necessarily the, a full range perhaps. 1407 01:21:45,590 --> 01:21:47,840 Yeah. I think that's totally reasonable. And again, 1408 01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,200 like this also ties into carbon budget because when you're, 1409 01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:52,360 when you're forcing a plant to grow in a specific way, 1410 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,760 you're also asking it to allocate all its resources in that direction too, 1411 01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,280 which generally means it has less for other stuff, 1412 01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,000 which maybe is stuff that we want like terpenes. 1413 01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:06,200 . Right on. Um, uh, let's talk a little bit about, um, uh, 1414 01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:10,960 I think what I think I can probably group hydroponics and fog pons 1415 01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:16,000 together, but if not, tease them back apart for me. Um, uh, I'm curious because, 1416 01:22:16,050 --> 01:22:20,360 uh, you know, we've, we've, we've talked significantly on this show about the, 1417 01:22:20,370 --> 01:22:20,720 um, 1418 01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:25,440 soil food web and then somewhat about the water 1419 01:22:25,550 --> 01:22:30,160 food web and a hydroponics solution and a, 1420 01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:34,360 I'm assuming a fog solution. We're talking about the water, food web. 1421 01:22:34,980 --> 01:22:38,080 And, um, I'm wondering if there, 1422 01:22:39,690 --> 01:22:44,430 the quality and number and variety of the exudates that are 1423 01:22:44,430 --> 01:22:48,950 in those systems sound like there's going to be less since you 1424 01:22:49,190 --> 01:22:50,910 initiated this by saying, Oh, I use, 1425 01:22:51,060 --> 01:22:55,590 I use a fog pons because we're trying to, um, 1426 01:22:55,590 --> 01:22:59,190 ranch these particular exudates and in soil, there's just too many. 1427 01:22:59,190 --> 01:23:03,230 So I'm assuming that in hydroponics and in, in in fog pons, 1428 01:23:03,230 --> 01:23:07,280 that there are going to be less exodus based on what you had said earlier. 1429 01:23:07,660 --> 01:23:12,440 And so with hydroponics with this same, um, idea, 1430 01:23:12,930 --> 01:23:16,160 um, crossover from the soilless mediums, that, 1431 01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,720 that there may be reasons you want to use hydroponics, 1432 01:23:19,740 --> 01:23:22,640 but in the end there are going to be less, uh, 1433 01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:27,280 varieties of exudates and, you know, signaling conversation, 1434 01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:30,720 taking on, uh, take, you know, going on and nutrition. 1435 01:23:30,970 --> 01:23:35,240 So you would run into the same problem with hydroponic systems that you're 1436 01:23:36,210 --> 01:23:41,020 not aggressively, um, Yeah. Supplementing, I guess. 1437 01:23:41,020 --> 01:23:41,340 I think. 1438 01:23:41,340 --> 01:23:44,580 So, Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, for me, 1439 01:23:44,780 --> 01:23:45,900 the difference between fog, 1440 01:23:45,930 --> 01:23:49,740 pons and hydroponics just quickly would be just like the, um, 1441 01:23:50,450 --> 01:23:54,180 I don't know, dryness, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. , because, uh, 1442 01:23:54,180 --> 01:23:58,300 the fog pons is, even though it's nutrients, it's very dry. 1443 01:23:58,300 --> 01:24:02,180 Like the roots aren't sitting in water, they're not, um, they're not like soggy. 1444 01:24:02,180 --> 01:24:05,700 So anything that's really intolerant of flooding, um, 1445 01:24:06,170 --> 01:24:09,300 I've been able to grow more successfully in fog phonics, um, 1446 01:24:09,300 --> 01:24:11,780 as opposed to hydroponics where a lot of hydroponics, your, 1447 01:24:11,780 --> 01:24:16,700 your plants are really sitting in water or constantly sprayed by water 1448 01:24:16,700 --> 01:24:19,380 or a lot of stuff like that. But it's a really subtle difference, 1449 01:24:19,380 --> 01:24:23,180 I think because the nutrient solution I use for both, um, is the same. Um, 1450 01:24:23,710 --> 01:24:27,980 so as, as far as like it compares pretty well to soilless, 1451 01:24:27,980 --> 01:24:31,220 I think the biggest difference, at least for me, 1452 01:24:31,220 --> 01:24:32,900 wouldn't necessarily be in exit dates. 1453 01:24:32,900 --> 01:24:36,980 It would be more in like root architecture because, um, the plants in a, 1454 01:24:37,070 --> 01:24:41,500 in a like peat or cocoa, it's, it's more like soil for like how they can grow. 1455 01:24:41,950 --> 01:24:46,100 Um, but on the exit date level, I think that the same is probably true. 1456 01:24:46,260 --> 01:24:49,260 There's gonna be a, a more defined set of exudates. 1457 01:24:49,260 --> 01:24:51,860 They're probably coming mostly from the plant and you, 1458 01:24:51,860 --> 01:24:56,180 you miss out on some of those interactions with bacteria and fungus and stuff 1459 01:24:56,180 --> 01:24:56,540 like that. 1460 01:24:56,540 --> 01:24:59,300 And there's still maybe some that can grow in those kind of conditions, 1461 01:24:59,300 --> 01:25:02,300 but a lot less than would be growing in soil, at least as far as I can tell. 1462 01:25:02,300 --> 01:25:04,700 Right on. Um, I also wanna, um, 1463 01:25:04,700 --> 01:25:08,380 add a little something for all my hydroponics people who are listening who are 1464 01:25:08,380 --> 01:25:12,460 now like pissed at me because I'm, I'm, I'm underselling their craft. 1465 01:25:12,650 --> 01:25:17,300 I wanna be clear that I do understand that, that some hydroponics, um, you know, 1466 01:25:17,300 --> 01:25:20,100 there's a lot of varieties of hydroponics. I mean, we had, 1467 01:25:20,100 --> 01:25:24,740 we did a really great, uh, soil food web show, uh, couple years ago with, uh, 1468 01:25:24,740 --> 01:25:29,140 Steve Reisner. And, and you know, he does the, you know, first of all, 1469 01:25:29,230 --> 01:25:33,980 he is heavy into, uh, bringing in, uh, you know, water with, 1470 01:25:33,980 --> 01:25:36,420 uh, with mom and fish poop in it mm-hmm. . 1471 01:25:36,420 --> 01:25:40,940 So there's a lot of complexity there. And, um, and, and he was describing, 1472 01:25:40,940 --> 01:25:44,620 you know, the, the great flowers that he pulls from his setup, but, 1473 01:25:44,620 --> 01:25:47,300 but he also has some soil in the mix, right? So he's, 1474 01:25:47,300 --> 01:25:50,900 he's like flooding and draining the soil and he's got the fish poop. 1475 01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:55,740 And so he's making this like incredibly biologically active environment that 1476 01:25:55,740 --> 01:26:00,420 makes, you know, flowers with terpene profiles that, um, that he says we, we, 1477 01:26:00,420 --> 01:26:04,640 we don't even get in, in a, in a straight soil medium. So I wanna be clear, 1478 01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,680 when, when, when I'm talking about the limitations of hydroponics, I, 1479 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:10,200 I'm talking about, you know, 1480 01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,800 the kinds of stuff that people are generally either doing, you know, in, 1481 01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:17,920 in their, in, you know, in the extra room, in their house, or at, you know, 1482 01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:20,640 wild scale of corporate cannabis, 1483 01:26:20,790 --> 01:26:25,720 I absolutely appreciate the fact that there are really tasty ways to 1484 01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:27,680 do complex hydroponic. So. 1485 01:26:28,190 --> 01:26:29,280 That totally makes sense. 1486 01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:32,920 And I would like to add there that like each of these growing methods has its 1487 01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,320 place and the plant will grow regardless. Um, and so I, 1488 01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,440 I know I've had some really good hydroponic weed before. 1489 01:26:39,470 --> 01:26:42,680 I know that I've had some really good living soil weed. Like they, 1490 01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:44,880 they all have, they all have their way of doing things. 1491 01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:48,160 And I also think that there's ways to make hydroponics more accessible to 1492 01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:50,280 bacterial life. And like you were just saying, 1493 01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:54,760 with a different terpene profile that you don't get with either of the other 1494 01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:55,040 two. 1495 01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:58,240 And that just kind of goes to prove the point that what you're putting on your 1496 01:26:58,240 --> 01:26:59,800 roots does change. And, 1497 01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,680 and same with the type of life that you're growing changes what the plant is 1498 01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:06,040 able to do. And sometimes that's for the better, 1499 01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:09,600 depending on which method you're using. So definitely, 1500 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:12,360 like whatever you're growing your plant in is better than not growing your plant 1501 01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:12,800 at all. 1502 01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:14,640 . Yeah. There, there you go. And you know, 1503 01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:16,840 that's one of the challenges that we ran into, um, 1504 01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:20,000 during these like 24 hours of lights debate. People are like, 1505 01:27:20,350 --> 01:27:25,280 I grew a huge as plant that was absolutely beautiful and totally got me high. 1506 01:27:25,620 --> 01:27:29,080 And, and, and every all my friends bought it from me, and that was great. 1507 01:27:29,180 --> 01:27:30,000 And they're all like, 1508 01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:33,720 Why are you telling me that I I shouldn't be using 24 hours? And, and, 1509 01:27:33,900 --> 01:27:35,320 and my response is always, it's, 1510 01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:38,960 it's not that I'm saying that you can't grow plants and that your plants are 1511 01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:41,280 gonna suck if you, if you do, you go 24 hours, 1512 01:27:41,700 --> 01:27:46,080 I'm saying that you're probably leaving some quality on the table, um, 1513 01:27:46,170 --> 01:27:51,040 by doing it 24 hours and your terpene profile could be better and the plants 1514 01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:53,200 could be better, and you could be more press, 1515 01:27:53,550 --> 01:27:57,200 more pest resistant if you just, uh, 1516 01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:02,080 gave it four hours of, of sleep or six hours of sleep, it would be helpful. Um, 1517 01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:06,840 but, you know, internet debates are rarely that nuanced, you know. 1518 01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:10,880 . Oh, it's so true. And I, I, I do think that like, even, 1519 01:28:11,170 --> 01:28:14,560 it doesn't really at the end of the day matter if you're growing a plant that 1520 01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:17,840 suits your tastes like however you're doing, it's great. I mean, 1521 01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:20,040 unless you're dumping like illegal pesticides on it or something like that, 1522 01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,320 maybe, maybe don't do that. But you know, like, I think at the end of the day, 1523 01:28:23,580 --> 01:28:26,320 everybody's gonna have a way of growing that works for them. 1524 01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:29,960 And there's absolutely, these debates are all like trying to tease out the, 1525 01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:32,600 the finer ways of growing and like the best way to grow. 1526 01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:36,400 And that's gonna be very much personal preference at the end of the day. Um, 1527 01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:38,840 and I personally prefer the taste of living soil weed, 1528 01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,760 but I've had really good weed that's been grown in every other condition you can 1529 01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:45,480 imagine. So I'm, you know, Yeah. Here, as long as you're growing a plant, 1530 01:28:45,480 --> 01:28:46,200 it's fine. . Yeah. 1531 01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,000 I, I'm with you there. And, and it also gets me when, 1532 01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,520 when people are demanding that, you know, their, 1533 01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,720 their recipe of how they grow is, is the best and one and only. And I'm like, 1534 01:28:55,750 --> 01:28:58,440 that's that, that shouldn't even be coming out of a, 1535 01:28:58,440 --> 01:29:01,080 out of a cannabis cultivator mouth. You know? It, 1536 01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:06,080 it really depends on what your particular needs are and your resources and your 1537 01:29:06,360 --> 01:29:09,840 location. And, you know, I would, I would love to grow differently than I do, 1538 01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:11,800 but I also don't live in California, you know? 1539 01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:13,160 No, totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. 1540 01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:13,840 Which, which, 1541 01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:17,160 which pushes me towards things like short flowering thing in auto flowers, 1542 01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:19,760 right? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, if I lived in California, 1543 01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:24,400 I would probably still be focusing on my own cultivation on photos. So, 1544 01:29:24,580 --> 01:29:27,640 All right. So fair. The next thing I wanna talk about is, um, 1545 01:29:27,930 --> 01:29:31,240 is unsolved molasses. So, um, it is, 1546 01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,080 it is a pretty common in, um, 1547 01:29:34,450 --> 01:29:39,200 in living soil for, for folks to, um, 1548 01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:42,880 think that they can make up for not giving, 1549 01:29:44,110 --> 01:29:48,520 I guess I'll call it like whole nutrition, like whole amendments, like, um, 1550 01:29:49,580 --> 01:29:53,740 let's say like, um, like, like fish meal and, 1551 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:58,300 and crab shell and maybe alfalfa meal. 1552 01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:02,980 All all of these amendments that we love to use in living soil, um, 1553 01:30:03,310 --> 01:30:04,580 to have an, 1554 01:30:04,580 --> 01:30:09,540 an abundant variety of nutrients there for the, uh, the, 1555 01:30:09,540 --> 01:30:14,460 I guess the exu eight processors to chew through and then give to the plant. So, 1556 01:30:14,460 --> 01:30:17,740 and, and so the exu eights come back and then they feed the microbes. 1557 01:30:17,740 --> 01:30:22,420 And this is beautiful relationship. And it is not uncommon for people to say, 1558 01:30:22,610 --> 01:30:23,740 Well, you know, I don't, 1559 01:30:23,740 --> 01:30:28,340 I don't need to do all of that to take care of my microbes because I just, 1560 01:30:28,340 --> 01:30:32,740 I just feed the microbes with unsolved molasses and, and you know, 1561 01:30:32,740 --> 01:30:35,700 that that pains me because, um, I, I, 1562 01:30:35,700 --> 01:30:39,940 I have a gut feeling that just pouring sugar into the soil, 1563 01:30:40,470 --> 01:30:44,300 um, is not a great idea. And, and, 1564 01:30:44,300 --> 01:30:47,860 and molasses is kind of uni dimensional, 1565 01:30:47,990 --> 01:30:51,900 whereas micro life is so, uh, 1566 01:30:51,900 --> 01:30:55,220 so vastly complex and, and I get where they're coming from, right? 1567 01:30:55,220 --> 01:30:59,620 Because when we are brewing a compost tea, um, 1568 01:30:59,620 --> 01:31:04,340 we will often add a bit of unsolved molasses to that so 1569 01:31:04,340 --> 01:31:07,340 that the, um, the microbes have, 1570 01:31:07,340 --> 01:31:10,380 have something to eat so that we can, uh, 1571 01:31:10,380 --> 01:31:14,220 incubate them and have a whole bunch of them in a small place that we can then 1572 01:31:14,220 --> 01:31:17,900 pour onto our plants. So I, so I get where they got the idea, 1573 01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:22,380 but I think that is a misapplication of the understanding of what 1574 01:31:23,250 --> 01:31:28,220 effect molasses has on the microbe life in the RSOs sea. 1575 01:31:28,310 --> 01:31:30,380 So, so as somebody who, 1576 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,380 who has an intimate relationship with exudates, 1577 01:31:33,450 --> 01:31:37,860 what are your thoughts on an adding unsolved molasses 1578 01:31:38,340 --> 01:31:43,060 directly into the substrate as part of some sort of nutritive root drench? 1579 01:31:44,410 --> 01:31:48,900 I am gonna go back to the theme of the day, which is, 1580 01:31:48,900 --> 01:31:52,380 it's complicated. And it depends, I think, um, 1581 01:31:52,730 --> 01:31:57,300 I think that if you are trying to recover your soil life just with molasses, 1582 01:31:57,300 --> 01:32:00,200 that it really depends on the health of the soil that you're adding it to, 1583 01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,280 because that molasses, just like it does in compost tea, is, 1584 01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:07,160 does have sugar in it. I'm sure things will like to eat what's there and grow. 1585 01:32:07,290 --> 01:32:07,640 Um, 1586 01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:11,000 but that means that anything in your soil you're adding it to is gonna grow too. 1587 01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:15,120 So if you've got some nasty, you know, anaerobic bacteria in, 1588 01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:18,920 in your soil already, like that's gonna love it as much as the next thing does. 1589 01:32:19,610 --> 01:32:22,720 Um, and the other thing is like a lot of the amendments we add, um, 1590 01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,360 provide different, um, I don't know, 1591 01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,360 different opportunities for different types of microbes to come in. 1592 01:32:29,450 --> 01:32:32,920 So if you're only feeding molasses, and that's how you're getting your, 1593 01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:35,120 your microbial life, like, it might get there eventually, 1594 01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:38,600 but it's also going to be the microbes that specifically like molasses and 1595 01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:43,280 you'll miss out maybe on some of the, the kelp or the crab meal type. 1596 01:32:43,380 --> 01:32:46,440 And again, this is all kind of conjecture because truthfully, 1597 01:32:46,440 --> 01:32:48,000 the science isn't there to, 1598 01:32:48,410 --> 01:32:51,920 to be able to specifically identify each different bacteria that come with each 1599 01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:55,480 of these. But, um, that's, that's what my gut feeling would be. Um, 1600 01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:56,560 if you're already, if, 1601 01:32:56,560 --> 01:33:00,720 if you're health of your soil is really good and you're already adding compe, 1602 01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:02,360 compost ts and things like that, 1603 01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:05,280 if you're diluting a little bit of molasses in water, I don't, 1604 01:33:05,310 --> 01:33:08,520 I don't think it's, it's harmful. Um, but again, like I, 1605 01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:12,040 I do think that the biggest factor on whether that's a good idea or bad is 1606 01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:14,560 probably the health of your soil to begin with. Does that make. 1607 01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:17,880 Sense? Yeah, it does. So, um, yeah. You know, 1608 01:33:17,930 --> 01:33:22,720 is there anything that we can do to encourage healthy exudate 1609 01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:26,320 creation by the cannabis plant? I mean, we've talked, 1610 01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:30,240 we've talked a bit about like just generally keep your soil healthy. Got it. 1611 01:33:30,500 --> 01:33:35,040 But is there anything that we can do, like a, uh, is there, 1612 01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:37,760 is there any kind of a, a a, 1613 01:33:38,870 --> 01:33:42,400 a fermented plant juice or a supplement or, 1614 01:33:42,650 --> 01:33:47,480 or in anything that we could do to encourage exudate creation? 1615 01:33:47,480 --> 01:33:51,440 Because they really do seem to be a, um, a, 1616 01:33:51,470 --> 01:33:56,360 a baseline to a thriving plant where, um, if, 1617 01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:58,760 if you've got poor exudate activity, 1618 01:33:59,110 --> 01:34:03,360 everything that happens more complex than that, um, 1619 01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,160 is going to be limited by the, 1620 01:34:06,380 --> 01:34:08,960 the sad exudate system. 1621 01:34:09,370 --> 01:34:13,560 So is there anything that we can do that's pro exudate that, 1622 01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:14,393 that we should consider? 1623 01:34:15,380 --> 01:34:18,520 Ooh, that is a good question. Um, I mean, 1624 01:34:18,550 --> 01:34:23,080 I think the best answer is probably no 1625 01:34:23,140 --> 01:34:25,200 and yes. Mm-hmm. , um, no, 1626 01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:29,000 there isn't a magical thing that as much as it would be nice to just like 1627 01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,000 promote root health and the healthiest roots you've ever seen, 1628 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:36,120 just like sprout out of the, um, out of the soil and you're good to go, um, 1629 01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:39,640 because really it actually ends up being about root health. Um, 1630 01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:44,000 and that's where the yes part comes in because you can support root health by, 1631 01:34:44,130 --> 01:34:47,160 um, like the type, like you were talking about earlier, 1632 01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:49,640 proper watering technique, um, 1633 01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:53,080 where you're making sure the roots aren't like super dry and they're not super 1634 01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:57,160 wet or anything like that. Um, you can promote root health with soil texture. 1635 01:34:58,010 --> 01:35:00,120 Um, you can add these compost ts and things like that, 1636 01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:01,280 like we've been talking about, 1637 01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:05,000 to promote the type of microbes that you wanna be there. Um, 1638 01:35:05,060 --> 01:35:07,080 you can give them lots of space to grow. 1639 01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:11,480 Obviously more roots equals more ex dates. So if you have a nice big root ball, 1640 01:35:11,480 --> 01:35:13,960 I'm a big fan of big root balls though, cuz it's my thing. So mm-hmm. 1641 01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:17,280 , um, that, that's probably what I would say is like good, 1642 01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:22,160 good root health. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, but I mean, 1643 01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:22,400 again, 1644 01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:26,240 it's so hard to say how to get good root health and it's sort of trial and 1645 01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:27,960 error. So philosophically speaking, 1646 01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,880 these kind of conversations help too because you'll find people all over the 1647 01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:34,240 place that have different ways of making sure they have healthy roots, 1648 01:35:34,380 --> 01:35:38,600 and maybe one of those ends up working for your particular strain or type of 1649 01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:39,433 plant. 1650 01:35:39,490 --> 01:35:44,400 No surprise that you're a big fan of ru balls being up there in bc the land of 1651 01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:48,360 Natasha Riz, who's been on this show talking about ru balls as well, . 1652 01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:50,800 Mm-hmm. , my Canadian friends all love the, 1653 01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:53,280 the love the cannabis ru ball, um, good. 1654 01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:54,560 Roots equals good plant . 1655 01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:54,870 Totally. 1656 01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:59,800 It's so nice to come to an end of an episode without anything new we 1657 01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:01,160 have to do. You know, 1658 01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:05,200 usually when we go through these episodes at the end there's like, Okay, I need, 1659 01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:08,680 I need to learn about this and I need to start adding this and I need to learn 1660 01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,520 how to start, you know, making this Korean natural farming prep. 1661 01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:13,360 But really at the end of the story, 1662 01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:16,600 we've learned a whole ton about exudates today. So, 1663 01:36:17,250 --> 01:36:19,840 so a we stop repeating bro science, 1664 01:36:20,300 --> 01:36:24,960 and b we have like a more intimate relationship with an understanding of the 1665 01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,200 biology of our plant. But really if, 1666 01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:32,040 if you're already studying living soil and trying to have 1667 01:36:32,110 --> 01:36:37,080 a healthy soil, like the exit eights will take care of themselves. And it's, 1668 01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:42,280 it's so delightful to just be able to get new understanding without 1669 01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:43,120 new tasks. 1670 01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:46,650 It's true. Root health is just, you know what, 1671 01:36:46,650 --> 01:36:49,730 just keep doing what you're doing and go the healthiest plants that you can. 1672 01:36:49,830 --> 01:36:53,130 And, uh, and the, the plant is very good at taking care of itself. 1673 01:36:53,130 --> 01:36:55,930 So if you give it the opportunity too, then you won't have to worry about it. 1674 01:36:56,850 --> 01:37:00,290 Fabulous. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your time and, 1675 01:37:00,290 --> 01:37:03,610 and expertise with us, uh, today on Shaping Fire. You know, 1676 01:37:03,610 --> 01:37:07,130 I mentioned this in the introduction to the show that, um, you know, 1677 01:37:07,130 --> 01:37:09,450 you really do have a, uh, 1678 01:37:09,450 --> 01:37:13,690 a rare specialty and to find somebody who is, you know, 1679 01:37:13,690 --> 01:37:14,530 doing this at the, 1680 01:37:14,530 --> 01:37:19,250 at the PhD research level and also is a home cannabis 1681 01:37:19,250 --> 01:37:20,810 cultivator, um, 1682 01:37:20,810 --> 01:37:25,570 makes you exceptionally unique to be able to bridge between the academic 1683 01:37:25,570 --> 01:37:29,530 science side of Exudates and our beloved cannabis plant. 1684 01:37:29,870 --> 01:37:34,370 And so thank you for, you know, taking two hours and sharing it with us so that, 1685 01:37:34,370 --> 01:37:37,570 uh, that we can all become more familiar with Exudates. 1686 01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:40,890 It's been absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. 1687 01:37:41,250 --> 01:37:45,930 Fabulous. So, um, if you want to, uh, keep up with Sarah Lane, 1688 01:37:46,100 --> 01:37:48,570 uh, the best place to do that is, uh, uh, 1689 01:37:48,570 --> 01:37:52,330 through her Twitter and her Twitter account is Exude Rootly, 1690 01:37:52,330 --> 01:37:56,600 so that's E X U D E T T E 1691 01:37:57,270 --> 01:37:59,640 R O O T L Y. 1692 01:38:00,170 --> 01:38:05,120 So that is a great place to keep up on her research and her interests. Um, 1693 01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:06,800 if you happen to have a, 1694 01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,600 like a more of an elaborate question or comment perhaps, uh, 1695 01:38:11,670 --> 01:38:16,360 then a, you know, a Twitter account will allow, um, she also, 1696 01:38:16,530 --> 01:38:19,320 uh, invites you to send an email if you'd like. 1697 01:38:19,580 --> 01:38:24,240 And that is s lane, s l a n e, 1698 01:38:24,770 --> 01:38:27,320 at u vic.ca. 1699 01:38:27,330 --> 01:38:30,960 So that's u v I c.ca. 1700 01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:35,540 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire podcast and subscribe to the 1701 01:38:35,540 --> 01:38:38,900 show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts. 1702 01:38:39,070 --> 01:38:40,140 If you enjoyed the show, 1703 01:38:40,140 --> 01:38:42,900 we'd really appreciate it if you would leave a positive review of the podcast. 1704 01:38:43,380 --> 01:38:47,460 Wherever you download your view will help others find the show so they can enjoy 1705 01:38:47,460 --> 01:38:49,460 it too. On the Shaping Fire website, 1706 01:38:49,460 --> 01:38:53,100 you can also subscribe to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis 1707 01:38:53,100 --> 01:38:57,500 news exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. 1708 01:38:57,500 --> 01:39:00,220 You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. 1709 01:39:00,590 --> 01:39:04,420 Be sure to follow on Instagram For all original content not found on the podcast 1710 01:39:04,890 --> 01:39:08,500 that's at Shaping Fire and at shingle lo on Instagram, 1711 01:39:08,830 --> 01:39:12,220 Be sure to check out Shaping Fire YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, 1712 01:39:12,220 --> 01:39:13,940 farm tours, and cannabis lectures. 1713 01:39:14,370 --> 01:39:18,180 Does your company wanna reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? 1714 01:39:18,460 --> 01:39:21,820 Email hotspot shaping fire.com to find out how. 1715 01:39:21,930 --> 01:39:26,100 Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Chango Lowes.