1 00:00:07,050 --> 00:00:11,350 I'm not a big fan of gate keeping knowledge. If you wanna learn a skill, 2 00:00:11,350 --> 00:00:13,990 people shouldn't try to keep the education from you. 3 00:00:14,420 --> 00:00:17,510 Gate keeping happens a lot in cannabis nowadays. 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,550 It was less common before when we were all just criminals together. 5 00:00:21,890 --> 00:00:25,310 Now that there are some legal financial opportunities in cannabis, 6 00:00:25,620 --> 00:00:30,190 some folks have decided that cannabis can now be a win lose sport instead of 7 00:00:30,190 --> 00:00:32,750 including everybody. And I'm not down with that. 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,030 If you have ever considered introducing a male and female cannabis plant to each 9 00:00:38,030 --> 00:00:42,470 other, to watch seeds be made and have your own pile of seeds to pheno hunt, 10 00:00:42,530 --> 00:00:46,710 you should absolutely do that. Breeding is not hard at all. In fact, 11 00:00:46,710 --> 00:00:50,030 it is so easy. It happens on accident all the time. 12 00:00:50,230 --> 00:00:54,930 Don't let people tell you it is too hard or that you shouldn't do it. Now, 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:55,873 that said, 14 00:00:56,070 --> 00:01:00,810 you don't become any elite breeder without years of work studying 15 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:04,690 and looking at thousands of plants. But that isn't what you wanted to do, right? 16 00:01:04,690 --> 00:01:08,690 You just wanted to make some seeds, make seeds, save seeds, 17 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:10,290 share seeds with friends, 18 00:01:10,290 --> 00:01:14,330 and especially patients open pollinate and preserve land races, 19 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:15,370 and share those too. 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,610 I firmly believe in cannabis patient self-sufficiency, 21 00:01:19,610 --> 00:01:23,450 and the plant wants you to make crosses even bad ones. 22 00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:27,610 So this episode is for you, it's just some breeding basics, 23 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:31,650 but it's really all you need to get going and after you enjoy it, 24 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:36,170 there are plenty of sources of advanced breeding best practices to refine your 25 00:01:36,170 --> 00:01:40,010 skills later, but get started now and have fun with it. 26 00:01:41,070 --> 00:01:44,900 If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently 27 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:47,940 and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. 28 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:50,780 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 29 00:01:50,780 --> 00:01:52,220 delivered right to your inbox, 30 00:01:52,220 --> 00:01:55,180 along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the 31 00:01:55,180 --> 00:01:56,420 week, and videos too. 32 00:01:56,540 --> 00:02:00,180 Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. 33 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:04,220 Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. Also, 34 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:07,380 we're giving away very cool prizes to folks who are signed up to receive the 35 00:02:07,380 --> 00:02:07,700 newsletter. 36 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:10,860 There's nothing else you need to do to win except receive that newsletter. 37 00:02:10,860 --> 00:02:15,220 So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter and be entered into this 38 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:17,620 month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. 39 00:02:19,090 --> 00:02:22,590 You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Shago Lows. 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,510 My guest today is Brandon Potter. 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,830 Brandon is co-founder of Michael Fight Solutions, 42 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:33,310 a group of regeneratively minded crop advisors providing professional services 43 00:02:33,310 --> 00:02:35,030 to cannabis and food agriculture. 44 00:02:35,420 --> 00:02:38,910 He's also on the cannabis breeding team at New Breed Seed in Oregon. 45 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,310 Brandon earned a Masters of Science and biology, 46 00:02:42,370 --> 00:02:47,030 concentrating on both fungal endophytes and fungal pathogens at University of 47 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:49,350 Wisconsin. During today's episode, 48 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:52,470 we are talking about breeding your first cannabis plants, 49 00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:53,830 making your first cross. 50 00:02:54,220 --> 00:02:58,630 This episode will be a great primer for anyone considering making cannabis seeds 51 00:02:58,630 --> 00:02:59,680 for the the first time, 52 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:02,280 and others who are just simply curious about the process. 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,990 If you are especially curious about breeding cannabis, 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,510 be sure to check out episode 92 with Caleb I, 55 00:03:09,510 --> 00:03:13,070 Speca and Ryan Lee Camira about breeding S one Seeds. 56 00:03:13,220 --> 00:03:18,190 Then episode 71 with Daniel Morford on Pollen Collection and 57 00:03:18,190 --> 00:03:22,270 episode 64 on female only Breeding with Ryan Lee Chime. 58 00:03:22,570 --> 00:03:25,230 And then all the way back to episode 24, 59 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,350 to hear Mean Jean from Mendocino discuss cannabis breeding on the episode 60 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:33,910 entitled The Keeper Plants. On today's episode, though, 61 00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:38,710 set one will focus on common motivations. Folks have to breed cannabis seeds, 62 00:03:38,820 --> 00:03:42,950 some of the clear opportunities there are for seed makers and choosing whether 63 00:03:42,950 --> 00:03:44,870 to breed indoors or outdoors. 64 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:49,710 The second set looks at choosing plants to cross sifting for parents and 65 00:03:49,710 --> 00:03:53,790 ensuring pollination occurs. And then we wa wrap up the show in Set three, 66 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:56,110 talking about the best time to harvest your seeds, 67 00:03:56,300 --> 00:04:00,750 curing and storing your new beans. Welcome to Shaping Fire, Brandon. 68 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,200 Hello, Chango. It's really great to be. 69 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,360 Here. Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to join me. You know, um, 70 00:04:07,590 --> 00:04:11,560 I have been trying to put together this show for a while, but you know, 71 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,520 it really takes, um, um, 72 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:17,240 a particular kind of person to, 73 00:04:17,530 --> 00:04:20,960 to do like an introductory show on breeding. You know, 74 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,920 so many of the people in the scene who I'm friends with, um, uh, 75 00:04:26,670 --> 00:04:29,600 they may be advanced breeders, 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,920 but they don't necessarily have, um, 77 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:38,240 the bringing it down to the basics for new folks level, uh, or, 78 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:42,200 or, or really all that much teaching experience. And so, um, 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,120 when I got turned onto you just a, you know, a few weeks ago, uh, I mean, you, 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,680 you were kind enough to send me AutoFlow seeds that I grew this summer and that, 81 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,760 and that was great. But like, I I, I knew you just as a, as a, as a seed guy, 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,360 right? But, um, when I had the opportunity to see your, 83 00:04:59,490 --> 00:05:04,320 um, your interviews after the AutoFlow Cup, um, I'm all like, Oh, 84 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,880 wow, this guy really can explain what he does. 85 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:10,520 And that's when I looked you up and I found out like you had a, 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,600 you had a master's and you had been a great graduate assistant, 87 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,680 and you had been teaching, you know, biology. And I'm like, Oh, thi you know, 88 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,960 this is the guy that I'm looking for. And then, and then, you know, we, 89 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,960 we connected and you were exactly the guy who I thought you were. So anyway, 90 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,240 I appreciate you bringing your skills to us so that, um, you know, 91 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,880 people who are tuning into the show to get like a, like a an easy, 92 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,600 better understanding of how to start off growing your first, 93 00:05:38,130 --> 00:05:42,360 uh, or not just growing, but breeding your first cannabis variety. That, 94 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,240 that this will be, uh, a good solution for them. So, 95 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:46,640 so thank you for all of that. 96 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:49,720 Thank you for all the compliments and yeah, 97 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,720 I really hope I can help some people today maybe avoid some pitfalls and wasted 98 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,600 time that I definitely got into when I first started making seeds. 99 00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:02,440 And it is so time consuming, right? It's so, it's such a drag to, 100 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:06,080 to put in all that time and effort and like, patience, 101 00:06:06,420 --> 00:06:09,040 and then get all the way to the end and find out that like, 102 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,400 something you just screwed something up or something wasn't right, and, 103 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:17,120 and then having to start over. So, um, you know, I, I've only, uh, 104 00:06:17,150 --> 00:06:20,520 bred, uh, one time myself, 105 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,360 and it was for a very particular reason. It was what, like six, 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,160 seven years ago and at the, when the CBD stuff was, uh, 107 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,440 first starting to become, uh, more readily available, uh, 108 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,960 and the seeds at the time, you know, you'd buy, you know, CBD seeds in a pack, 109 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,680 and, and they didn't all breed, they didn't all grow with CBD in them. 110 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:42,960 You know, there it would be, was more like, 111 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,960 there are some CBD seeds in this pack, So, 112 00:06:48,010 --> 00:06:52,680 so you couldn't just like, you know, grow them all, find your females, 113 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:53,833 clone them, 114 00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:58,040 and then have a field of cbd because not all of those female 115 00:06:58,630 --> 00:07:01,800 plants had CBD in them. And, 116 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:05,360 and working with the patients here on Vashon Island, I, I could, 117 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,920 I couldn't just give out seeds to people that, 118 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:13,000 that they were gonna have to grow and then get tested before they 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,760 knew that it even had CBD in it. That's not like setting them up for success, 120 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:17,500 right? 121 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:22,320 And so my first project was to make CBD seeds 122 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,000 that were 18 to one, 123 00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:29,600 but that every single female was going to show that CBD profile. 124 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:34,560 And so, so, you know, I did that and gave away a bunch, 125 00:07:34,660 --> 00:07:38,800 and then much to my surprise, sold a bunch. And, and that was awesome. 126 00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:43,160 What was your motivation for starting to breed cannabis? 127 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,350 Um, okay, Well, before, I just wanna say I can totally relate to that problem. 128 00:07:49,350 --> 00:07:54,070 Back in 2013, I was, the, the first CBD seed I could get was from, 129 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,550 so Home Seeds, it was Har Harless Zoo. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, 130 00:07:57,550 --> 00:08:00,710 the pack just said Most plants will be CBD dominant. 131 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,470 It was really frustrating for me at the time because I, 132 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:06,230 like CBD crew was releasing one to one seeds, 133 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:11,070 so I knew that one of their parents had to be a, a CBD dominant, 134 00:08:11,070 --> 00:08:13,390 true breeding line, and they just weren't releasing it. 135 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,670 So I appreciate your work doing that . Um, but, 136 00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:21,670 uh, the, the first seed that I ever made, and I wouldn't, you know, 137 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:26,630 this wasn't really breeding, uh, it was just making seed to have more seed. 138 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,190 Uh, and it was the, the first strain I ever grew, 139 00:08:29,190 --> 00:08:34,190 which was twilight from Dutch passion, and I just made seed with it. Um, 140 00:08:34,260 --> 00:08:35,750 I've actually never, 141 00:08:36,180 --> 00:08:39,830 I never grew any of the seed I made because I didn't like the strain. 142 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,110 So that's one, uh, one pitfall to avoid. Don't make seed if you don't. 143 00:08:44,350 --> 00:08:44,870 . Actually, 144 00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:47,750 that's really funny to put in all that effort and then go like, uh, 145 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:49,870 I'm not happy with this. I'm gonna move on . 146 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:52,350 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the time it was like, 147 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:55,360 I concurrently made the seed with the first grow of it, 148 00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:00,240 so it didn't really waste any time for me, but it was effort that, um, you know, 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,000 if I knew that I didn't agree with the strain so much, I wouldn't have done. 150 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,270 So. Um, you know, 151 00:09:07,270 --> 00:09:10,030 it's interesting cause like people grow for a lot of different reasons, right? 152 00:09:10,030 --> 00:09:11,590 I mean, there, of course, there's just fun, right? 153 00:09:11,590 --> 00:09:14,190 There's cannabis enthusiasts who just, you know, 154 00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:19,670 freaking love the plant and they wanna do and try everything. And, um, 155 00:09:19,670 --> 00:09:22,790 and then there's people who are like more in it for the science, right? 156 00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:26,630 There are like bot but you know, botany minded, and they're all like, I must, 157 00:09:26,660 --> 00:09:31,270 I must, um, I must know all plants intimately. Um, 158 00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:35,390 then there are some people who do it in service to patients, 159 00:09:35,390 --> 00:09:39,990 which was kind of like where I was coming at it from is that I needed this for 160 00:09:39,990 --> 00:09:42,910 patients. Um, and then there's, uh, 161 00:09:43,060 --> 00:09:46,150 I think most people fall into one of the last two categories, 162 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:50,070 which is to get something that they uniquely love, 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,790 um, or because they need to make some money, right? And, 164 00:09:55,790 --> 00:09:58,710 and, um, and, uh, I think that's, uh, you know, 165 00:09:58,710 --> 00:10:01,070 I think people generally fall into, 166 00:10:01,070 --> 00:10:05,630 to those categories When you decided that you wanted to dive in 167 00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:10,750 and, um, you know, really study it, take your, take your, you know, you know, 168 00:10:10,750 --> 00:10:14,310 botany and, and, and soil and, uh, 169 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:18,790 biology backgrounds and really dive into cannabis, um, 170 00:10:18,970 --> 00:10:23,510 you know, what were, what did you want to create with that? What was your goal? 171 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,350 Um, and the reason why I'm asking you, 172 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:28,390 I know that I know the show isn't like about you, but, um, 173 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:33,230 but what I'm hoping is, is that, um, the people who are listening to the show, 174 00:10:33,410 --> 00:10:37,150 who are thinking about getting into this or, or are considering it, 175 00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:39,710 maybe kind of giving them a little encouragement. 176 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:43,560 Sure. Um, so I, 177 00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:46,240 I sort of always had an interest in cannabis. 178 00:10:46,350 --> 00:10:50,160 I didn't know that I would be in the industry necessarily, but, um, 179 00:10:50,370 --> 00:10:55,240 it was a goal. And even I lived in the East coast usually in, you know, 180 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,640 not friendly states. Uh, 181 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,910 so I was growing black market back, back in like the early two thousands, 182 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,790 um, and all that while I was going through formal school for biology. 183 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,990 Uh, and then I worked for the forest service for a little bit, 184 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:15,390 and then I went back to grad school for, uh, plant pathology, uh, 185 00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:17,550 focused on fungal pathogens. 186 00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:22,030 And all of that was kind of with back in the mi you know, 187 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,230 in the back of my mind, well, 188 00:11:23,230 --> 00:11:27,310 this could be used for focusing on like a natural resource career with the 189 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:29,790 forest service or, uh, park service, 190 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,790 or I could also do cannabis with this. And especially nowadays, 191 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,950 if you're young and you have access to, um, 192 00:11:36,950 --> 00:11:41,710 a lot of schools have cannabis specific programs now, or classes, uh, 193 00:11:42,210 --> 00:11:47,030 and even schools in unfriendly states are able to work with 194 00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:50,430 hemp and do really cool, uh, you know, 195 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:55,080 genomic uh, cutting edge technology type stuff with it. 196 00:11:55,370 --> 00:11:57,800 So if I were just getting into it, I might, uh, 197 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,280 have focused more on that in my education. Um, but yeah, I, 198 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,040 I always wanted to work with cannabis. I was always interested in breeding. I, 199 00:12:06,270 --> 00:12:08,720 I didn't really take many formal breeding classes. 200 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,480 I really learned on the job since I've worked, uh, with a cannabis breeder. 201 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:18,480 And, you know, I had a background in gen genetics and, uh, biology. 202 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:23,380 But, uh, practical plant breeding is, uh, 203 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:27,060 a much different thing than I had in my head at the time. Um, 204 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:32,420 yes, it's is just much more directed than, you know, I, 205 00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:37,300 I think evolutionarily a lot. And, uh, evolution still applies, 206 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:40,700 of course, to plant breeding and artificial selection, 207 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,820 but the numbers and how to achieve something on a human time scale are a 208 00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:46,653 lot different. 209 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:50,900 Yeah. And the name of the game is opportunities, right? Because, uh, you know, 210 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,780 you and I both got into breeding originally because we both saw the opportunity 211 00:12:55,780 --> 00:12:58,100 and the need, uh, for to, to, 212 00:12:58,110 --> 00:13:02,900 to have a pack of seeds that CBD was expressed in every one of those seeds. 213 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:05,820 And so that's what, you know, originally got you and I to start. 214 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,300 But there's so many, you know, opportunities right now. Um, 215 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:13,300 as somebody who's very involved with the, the cannabis breeding scene, 216 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:17,420 what are the, some of the opportunities, like the niches, um, that, 217 00:13:17,420 --> 00:13:19,540 that are just dying to be filled right now? 218 00:13:21,770 --> 00:13:24,680 So there are a couple that I see. Um, 219 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:29,600 so some of the first things beyond just making seeds for preserving 220 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:30,720 and growing in the future, 221 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:35,600 The first breeding programs that I also started on my own were, uh, 222 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,760 CBD programs where I was trying to get CBD dominant plants as well. 223 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:44,320 And then I was also eventually trying to put CBD into AutoFlow plants. 224 00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:47,960 Uh, so the AutoFlow generally was a, 225 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:53,080 a missing niche that I saw maybe 10 years ago, and that's being filled, 226 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:58,000 but there's still a huge deficit in the quality and variety 227 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,640 of AutoFlow plants. So that's still a really big, um, 228 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,600 open niche. A lot of people are moving into it. 229 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,120 There's a lot of new growers that are just growing AutoFlow. Um, 230 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,600 and there are some great AutoFlow genetics, but, you know, 231 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,920 people have only been working on AutoFlow for the last 20 years, 232 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,800 intensely maybe 30, 40 years total as far as smokeable flower goes. 233 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:22,200 And they've been working on photo periods for thousands. 234 00:14:22,210 --> 00:14:26,400 So there's a lot that can be moved into outflow to improve those still just as, 235 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,080 uh, THC cultivars also, um, 236 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,880 smokeable hemp is turning out to be a smaller market than maybe I thought it was 237 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,880 going to be a few years ago, but there's also a lot of, um, 238 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,040 potential in a missing market there. So I don't know how big of a market, 239 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,000 but there is a lack of good smokeable AutoFlow hemp. 240 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,520 There's increasing amounts of good smokeable, uh, photo period hemp, 241 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,600 but that's still, uh, you know, 242 00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:57,840 far below THC photo periods, uh, better elites. 243 00:14:58,410 --> 00:14:58,760 Um, 244 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,560 the other big market that's gonna be a little harder for small scale growers to 245 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,040 compete with is the minor cannabinoid market. Yeah. 246 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,680 So especially, you know, cbd, 247 00:15:10,180 --> 00:15:14,640 THC are relatively easy to the inheritance patterns of them. 248 00:15:14,950 --> 00:15:19,800 They kind of function as one co co gene where you cross 249 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,520 a THC dominant plant to a CBD dominant plant. They come out intermediate. 250 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,200 Youre that generation, and it's gonna segregate one to two to one, 251 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,400 where one, uh, 25% will be THC dominant, 252 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,840 50% will be intermediate, 25% will be CBD dominant. Uh, 253 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,200 so that's a relatively easy, uh, test or, um, 254 00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:46,640 gene to breed with for a home breeder. You still have to get that tested. 255 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,920 You can bioassay it, I guess. And if you're not getting high off a plant, 256 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,080 it's probably a pure CBD plant. Uh, but what's. 257 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,560 That term? What's that term you just used? Bioassay ? Is, is that, 258 00:16:00,050 --> 00:16:02,760 is that just like, is that like kind of like a, um, 259 00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:05,160 like a cute phrase for smoking it? 260 00:16:05,650 --> 00:16:06,320 Exactly. 261 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,840 Right. I've not heard that. That's funny. All right. Sorry, go ahead. 262 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:14,400 Yeah, I, I actually heard that in reference to, um, I think it was Andrew, 263 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:16,120 we and Gary Linkov, 264 00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:20,520 who was the oban mushroom field guy author, uh, 265 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,760 they found some Jim Napoli spec Metabolis in Central Park in New York, 266 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:29,440 and they reported it as active following a bioassay. Meaning. 267 00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:32,760 Meaning they just ate it and hoped the head whatever went well, . 268 00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:33,973 Yes. Yeah. 269 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:39,200 So, sorry, the term I, I interrupted you, you were, you were explaining how, uh, 270 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,760 some of the novel cannabinoids, uh, are, are a target rich environment, but, 271 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:45,280 um, but uh, 272 00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:48,520 that's not just for everybody because the analytics that are necessary. 273 00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:53,080 Yeah, it's, it's gonna be hard to compete with some of the bigger players with, 274 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:53,960 um, you know. 275 00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:58,640 Like your, like your neighbors at Oregon CBD seeds, right? Like they, Right. 276 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,640 They, they've got a whole scientific setup there now for like intense 277 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,920 analytical breeding. That's, it's hard for a normal Joe to compete with that. 278 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:10,560 Yeah, exactly. Especially at numbers to create a, 279 00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:13,400 a plant that is not just that cannabinoid, 280 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,320 but is worthy agronomic plant to grow. Uh, 281 00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:22,550 so yeah, that's, that's where I see the major, uh, 282 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:23,773 market. 283 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:24,910 Mm-hmm. 284 00:17:24,910 --> 00:17:25,910 Collapses right. 285 00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:29,150 Now. Yeah. I totally agree with you on both of those. And, and, you know, 286 00:17:29,150 --> 00:17:30,710 if I was getting into breeding right now, 287 00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:34,310 I would intentionally try to stay away from, uh, 288 00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:37,310 the kinds of stuff that, um, um, 289 00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:41,790 like the big companies with deep pockets and scientific teams we're working on, 290 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,670 because, you know, long, the short of it is that u unless it's your passion, um, 291 00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:52,160 all those companies are gonna get that stuff done first. And, um, 292 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,400 you know, you don't really, it's, 293 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,960 it's really hard to compete with folks like that. Um, whereas, uh, you know, 294 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:01,760 any anybody can, for example, um, I agree with you, 295 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,440 auto flowers are continuing to be more and more, um, 296 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,400 predominant for home growers and patients and, uh, 297 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,560 and competing with, um, with light depth. 298 00:18:12,980 --> 00:18:17,360 And so I think there's a lot of opportunities in AutoFlow and also for, uh, 299 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,320 atypical terpenes, for example, like menthol, right? Like sure, there, 300 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,280 there's some plants that have gotten menthol, but, um, you know, there's, 301 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,040 there's not a lot and there are a lot of other flavor pro 302 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,160 terpene profiles, um, 303 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,040 that are as fringe as menthol that, 304 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,440 that people can find and, and, and just run with. And, um, 305 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:44,200 I think that is something that, uh, is more about, 306 00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:46,200 uh, uh, you know, 307 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,640 having a decent size sift and putting the time to smell it and then, 308 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,600 and then focusing like you can, you can get to that with, 309 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:58,600 with backyard or or bedroom breeding a lot easier than you're gonna 310 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,400 be able to create a, a fricking thcv dominant strain. 311 00:19:02,910 --> 00:19:05,480 Mm-hmm. . And in, in some ways, even though those are 312 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,360 inherited in complex multi-gen genetic fashion, uh, 313 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:12,760 something like a terpene profile, 314 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,840 there is a limit to the scalability simply because one, 315 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,120 some of these large firms can't smell every plant and can't take care of every 316 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:24,520 plant in a way that really gives you a good idea of what the terpene, uh, 317 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,040 profile or the, the aroma profile is gonna be at the end of the cure. 318 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:33,640 So even if they have all the genomic data and they know exactly what 319 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:34,840 base pairs are in that plant, 320 00:19:35,090 --> 00:19:40,000 we don't really have the phenotype data of what genes are associated with 321 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,240 different terpene profiles. 322 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,320 So that's an area where home growers are still very competitive. Uh, 323 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,360 something like disease resistance can also, 324 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,600 even though it's very complex and for known genes, 325 00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:56,320 the big players are gonna have an advantage if you have a plant that you observe 326 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,920 to be resistant, um, you know, 327 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,290 that's something you can observe at home, even if it's a, 328 00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:05,610 you know, complex, uh, trait. 329 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,810 Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Um, these, 330 00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:11,930 these companies that are doing, uh, huge, huge, 331 00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:14,730 huge grows of thousands of plants, um, 332 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,210 they are totally not gonna have the staff and the labor to be able to go and 333 00:20:19,210 --> 00:20:23,530 sniff all the plants to find out, you know, what they have that special. 334 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:27,170 And, um, that really, uh, does create a, 335 00:20:27,170 --> 00:20:30,850 a stronger position for the home growers. Um, another, another, uh, 336 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:35,090 opportunity that I think there is is for short flowering plants and, and, and I, 337 00:20:35,090 --> 00:20:39,850 and I mean short flowering photos that are under like, 338 00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:44,770 let's say 52 days. Um, because as we know when, 339 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:48,360 when those of us in, um, well, 340 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:52,040 let's just say those of us who are not in California, right? Um, we, 341 00:20:52,050 --> 00:20:56,160 we buy these seeds and we get California seeds and, and you know, 342 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,960 if you're gonna grow 'em indoors, that's one thing. 343 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,000 Cuz you can pretend California in your bedroom, 344 00:21:00,380 --> 00:21:02,600 but if you're gonna grow outdoors, um, 345 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,080 California seeds don't just thrive or they don't thrive just anywhere. 346 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:12,000 Cuz most of us have got, um, you know, other, other kinds of weather. 347 00:21:12,030 --> 00:21:16,680 I mean, I mean, I'm an extreme example here on Vashon Island where, um, 348 00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:21,360 you know, our, our plants start flowering around August 15th, 349 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,320 so an eight weeker is gonna be like October 15th. 350 00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:29,360 And like I'm two and a half to three weeks into my rain season at that point. 351 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,240 Like, there's no chance I'm gonna finish anything from California in Western 352 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,200 Washington. And so, um, so I look for very short things like the, 353 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,960 uh, like there's a bunch of under 55 day stuff from Humboldt Seed Company where, 354 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,600 you know, they may just barely be that where I live versus California. 355 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:48,853 But, um, 356 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:52,440 but there's no doubt that they're short and that's a great opportunity too. 357 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,280 I mean, if somebody could, 358 00:21:53,330 --> 00:21:57,800 if somebody could get a reliable great terpene profile, 45 dare, 359 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:00,040 um, I think it'd be a huge breakthrough. 360 00:22:00,670 --> 00:22:03,480 Yeah, I, I agree. And that there's, um, you know, 361 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,920 increasingly I'm seeing people selling what they call fast photos, 362 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,680 which are a photo period crossed with an AutoFlow. Uh, 363 00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:16,560 so they will be, they'll function as photo periods, you can veg them, 364 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:17,440 you can take clones, 365 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,440 but that auto is either speeds up its flowering time and or 366 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,960 it triggers earlier from, uh, diminished light. 367 00:22:27,530 --> 00:22:32,510 Uh, so it has a longer critical night period than, 368 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,270 uh, a pure photo period. 369 00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:38,190 I actually haven't come across those yet. I want to come across that myself. 370 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:41,150 The idea to have a, um, a a uh, 371 00:22:41,150 --> 00:22:44,350 a fast flower that I can clone is very attractive to me. 372 00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:50,070 Yeah. I think that Humboldt seed company, uh, has some like the. 373 00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:52,430 Hmm, um, hmm. I'm gonna have to, 374 00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:56,710 I'm gonna have to start using that keyword . So, um, alright, so we, we, 375 00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:57,190 you know, we've, 376 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:00,150 we've kind of established like a whole bunch of different reasons that people 377 00:23:00,150 --> 00:23:03,830 breed and what some of the opportunities are. Um, let's, um, 378 00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:08,470 let's talk a bit about, uh, space and materials. Um, because there, 379 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:11,830 there's a lot of different ways to do this and anybody who tells you that 380 00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:13,910 there's only one way to breed, um, 381 00:23:13,910 --> 00:23:16,950 they're just kind of full of themselves because there's lots of way to do this. 382 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,710 Um, would you go ahead and, uh, just kind of like, um, describe and compare, 383 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,230 um, what your thoughts are, uh, 384 00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:27,750 about breeding indoors versus breeding outdoors. 385 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,990 Is going to depend on what your final goals are to some extent and what your 386 00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:36,150 situation is. You can do either. Uh, 387 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,230 if your goal is to produce a plant that's being grown outdoors, 388 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:43,070 then there are benefits to growing outdoors. 389 00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:48,000 And you can also grow outdoors and indoors where 390 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,840 you're breeding a cycle outdoors and then breeding indoors over the winter or 391 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,800 some combination like this. Um, 392 00:23:56,090 --> 00:24:00,440 of course indoors is more accessible to more people, uh, but again, 393 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,960 it depends on what your, uh, final goals are and there's, 394 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,720 there's different ways you can tweak your breeding scheme and methodology to, 395 00:24:08,010 --> 00:24:12,680 uh, buffer against some of the negatives for either situation. 396 00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:17,200 Uh, so, um, yes, 397 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,440 both can be done. I, I don't know that there's an inherit benefit, 398 00:24:21,530 --> 00:24:23,320 it just depends on what your end goals are. 399 00:24:23,970 --> 00:24:28,480 To what degree do you think it's important to breed the same environment 400 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,120 where the seeds are gonna be grown? 401 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:36,640 Um, I think it's fairly significant, especially for outdoor varieties. Um, 402 00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:40,040 like, I'll give an example where, uh, 403 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,680 we have worked with some AutoFlow that are bread in Oregon where the, 404 00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:49,360 they're grown outdoors in the summer usually, uh, when during the dry period, 405 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:50,920 so like July to late August. 406 00:24:51,260 --> 00:24:55,560 And the weather during that period is usually eighties to a hundred during the 407 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,320 day lately. Uh, and then it still drops to, you know, 408 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,840 40 to 60 at night. 409 00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:06,160 So you get this cool night period while those same autos when they were grown in 410 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,520 the Midwest ended up really short. 411 00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:14,040 And one of the things we kind of theorize is that they're responding to, 412 00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:16,520 um, basically heat units. 413 00:25:17,130 --> 00:25:21,000 So because it's still hot in the night in the Midwest, 414 00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:25,600 they metabolism is sort of still running in their aging in a way, 415 00:25:25,980 --> 00:25:30,040 but they're not actively elongating and growing in the same way that they do, 416 00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:33,360 uh, in Oregon. Um, 417 00:25:33,530 --> 00:25:38,240 so there's definitely environmental effects that can have like 418 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,600 unforeseen or significant consequences on how the plant reacts, uh, 419 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,560 depending on where you're growing it, of course for indoor breeders, those are, 420 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,960 you know, the differences are gonna be minor. Well, 421 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,640 there still will be some between and among different 422 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,000 indoor grow setups, 423 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,640 but it's gonna be a much more significant effect when you take an indoor outdoor 424 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,473 or vice versa. 425 00:26:01,230 --> 00:26:05,240 That's an interesting idea about the, the hot nights. I think you may have just, 426 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,600 uh, solved something that happened to me. Um, earlier this summer I was, um, 427 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,080 running a, a specialty AutoFlow indoors, 428 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,320 which I normally just run 'em outdoors, but I was doing an indoors and it, it, 429 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,320 it was a, uh, it was like a really squat plant. It didn't stunt, but it, 430 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,280 it stopped at about 18 inches and it was heavy. I mean, 431 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,520 it was heavy for 18 , but I didn't understand why it, it didn't, 432 00:26:29,650 --> 00:26:33,760 um, get the height that I was expecting and other people did. Well, 433 00:26:34,290 --> 00:26:38,920 it was, it was indoors and it was hot in this, this spring here. And my, 434 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:42,680 my nights were hot and I bet you that, um, those, 435 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,520 those additional heat units, um, 436 00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:50,440 kept them surprisingly small because it was so hot in the evening. 437 00:26:50,530 --> 00:26:53,760 So I, I had never heard of that analysis before. So. 438 00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:59,240 It could be something, you know, not necessarily how I described it. Like there, 439 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,400 there is a technique called temperature diff and greenhouses where they, uh, 440 00:27:05,150 --> 00:27:09,760 affect the height of greenhouse plants by raising the temperature in the morning 441 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:14,160 for a certain period of time and plants will react physiologically to things 442 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,560 like that. So, um, it could be either or both of those things. And I've, 443 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,520 I've seen similarly, I've seen a plant, 444 00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:25,720 an AutoFlow that was bright outdoors in Oregon or in greenhouses and, uh, 445 00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:30,160 it was grown indoors under 24 hours of light. It ended up about a foot tall, 446 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:35,480 like branched like six branches and each branch had about a two liter nugget on 447 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,320 it just to the soil. It, it does not look like you normally, you know, 448 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,760 it's a four or five foot plant with normal size, uh, buds and structure. 449 00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:49,600 So they definitely are reacting differently. Um. 450 00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:54,560 So let's talk about the advantages in space between indoor and outdoor. 451 00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:58,840 So, um, indoors of course, great, there's lots of great reasons for it for, 452 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,480 for privacy and control of your environment and maybe your breeding for indoor 453 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,240 plants, cuz that's what you want to provide to people. Um, 454 00:28:07,340 --> 00:28:10,760 but also outdoors great because you've got, you know, if you, 455 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,880 if you don't live in the city, you may well have, uh, 456 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,640 unlimited space and so you can do a more significant, um, 457 00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:22,920 you know, run with, with to produce more seeds. 458 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,560 At one time, um, I was talking to, um, to, uh, Dan Jimmy, 459 00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:31,840 um, at, um, at, uh, No Automatics, and he's all like, when, 460 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,280 when he wants to bring something to market, um, 461 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,120 he's looking to produce 30,000 seeds of it. And I'm like, holy crap, that's a, 462 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,240 that's a lot of, um, that's a lot of moms and, 463 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,800 and a lot of processing those, those seeds. And so, um, 464 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:51,800 you know, depending on what your particular needs are as the breeders, 465 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,560 that's really going to influence whether or not you choose to grow indoor or 466 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,840 outdoor. It's, it's, it's not just one variable, it's probably, you know, 467 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,360 eight or 10 or 12 variables that you have to decide which is right for you. 468 00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:06,800 Yes, totally. 469 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,440 And that's a lot of these questions we have to start with where your goal is. 470 00:29:10,660 --> 00:29:13,080 Are you just breeding for yourself for home? 471 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,720 Are you trying to produce commercial quantities, things like that. 472 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,440 And that will change, uh, you know, how you approach the project to begin with. 473 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:24,640 What do you think about, um, um, you know, a lot, 474 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,640 a lot more people are breaking up indoor space into sub spaces by using grow 475 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,440 tents versus just, you know, using an entire room, like a grow room. 476 00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:38,320 They might take their garage and put, you know, you know, 477 00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:40,600 four or six, you know, 478 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,360 tents in there and treat them as individual spaces. I, 479 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,160 I think that's a pretty novel approach to, to turn one room into six rooms. 480 00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:52,520 And they're doing this for breeding? 481 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,080 Yeah, they're doing this for breeding. 482 00:29:54,670 --> 00:29:58,720 Okay. So I think it's valid as long as you meet a certain, 483 00:29:59,330 --> 00:30:03,000 uh, pollen control, uh, threshold. 484 00:30:03,490 --> 00:30:07,560 So especially cannabis pollen, it's wind pollinated, 485 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,880 it moves around really easily. Uh, 486 00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:14,120 so I've seen people doing this where they're filtering usually through, 487 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:19,360 uh, a me filter. I, I think anything rated above a nine will work for pollen, 488 00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:21,480 but probably, uh, 489 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,210 an 11 to 13 is better and then they'll have them 490 00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:29,530 under positive pressure blowing in clean, filtered air. 491 00:30:29,710 --> 00:30:32,450 The problem is if you have a bunch, you know, right next to each other, 492 00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:37,010 you also want to be filtering the outlet air with the same filter, um, 493 00:30:37,010 --> 00:30:41,330 or higher. And then, uh, with grow tens, 494 00:30:41,410 --> 00:30:46,120 they're usually sewn together. So if you have any holes in that tent, 495 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,320 pollen will be escaping out of those holes. Uh, you can, you know, 496 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,840 tape them up or I've seen heat sealed tents where there aren't, uh, 497 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,660 any holes in the seals. Um, but it, 498 00:30:58,950 --> 00:31:00,860 anytime you open that tent as well, 499 00:31:00,860 --> 00:31:04,900 you're going to be exposing the rest of the tens to pollen. So there are, 500 00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:07,580 there are ways to manage that. Uh, 501 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,820 you can build tents where there's irrigation into the tents and you, 502 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:14,420 once the pollen starts to drop, you close the tent, 503 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:17,420 you never open it until it's harvested. Um, 504 00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:22,260 so that's one way to prevent pollen contamination. Uh, another way, 505 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,940 you know, that's for producing pretty much, uh, 506 00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:28,700 commercial quantity seed lots though, 507 00:31:28,790 --> 00:31:33,540 if you're devoting a whole tent to it. If you're just breeding, you can do, 508 00:31:33,950 --> 00:31:37,140 uh, pollen bags or an individual, uh, 509 00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:41,700 branch pollination probably with just as much control over pollen contamination. 510 00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:44,740 Uh, and you know, if you're not opening the tents, that's different. 511 00:31:44,740 --> 00:31:47,620 You have a situation where they're completely sealed, 512 00:31:47,690 --> 00:31:52,540 that's the ideal situation. But if, if you have bro tents and there's these, 513 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,100 you know, pinholes all over the seams and things like that, 514 00:31:56,290 --> 00:31:58,340 well that might still work broadly, 515 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,980 but you're going to have a certain amount of pollen contamination from one to 516 00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:05,220 the other, especially if you're opening and going tent to tent. 517 00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:08,500 And you can minimize that with spraying water and things like that. 518 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,460 But cannabis pollen is, is very movable. 519 00:32:12,210 --> 00:32:16,060 Yeah, and I think that's a good point. And and I, and I think for most po folks, 520 00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:19,020 uh, you know, they're, they're probably gonna start with their, 521 00:32:19,020 --> 00:32:21,020 their one tent and their one project, 522 00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:25,620 and then after they have success and they give some seeds away to patients and 523 00:32:25,620 --> 00:32:30,300 they sell some, uh, you know, to, you know, friends or online or something, 524 00:32:30,510 --> 00:32:32,540 uh, and they were like, Oh hell, I think I wanna, 525 00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:36,940 I think I wanna do this some more. Well, you know, okay, so, so maybe now you, 526 00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:38,260 you get a couple more tents, 527 00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:42,080 but you're gonna gonna spend some of that money you made to get some like really 528 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,720 nice tents. Right. So I've, I've had a bunch of really mediocre to crappy tents, 529 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,360 and then I, I, and then I, you know, Gorilla sent me a tent and I'm like, 530 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,200 Oh crap, this is, um, 531 00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:56,720 this is a whole different level than the other tents I've been using. And, 532 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,760 you know, if I was doing this, I'm certainly, you know, not pushing, you know, 533 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,800 saying that people need to use Gorilla tens. 534 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,600 I'm just saying that there are different, uh, grades of tens and, and as, 535 00:33:07,650 --> 00:33:10,800 as somebody decides to take this more seriously, if they choose to, 536 00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:15,800 they will probably upgrade their gear to be on par with their level of 537 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:16,340 interest. 538 00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:18,480 Yes. I, I would say that's valid. I, 539 00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:23,000 if you're producing a tent full of seed, though, 540 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,600 that's a lot of seed, like you said, 30,000, uh, 541 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,480 seeds for a commercial lot, uh, from Dan. That's, you know, 542 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,800 you could do that in a 10 by 10 area with, I, I, you know, 543 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,920 I'm used to producing seed outdoors, but probably a thousand, uh, 544 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,640 maybe 1500 watts, uh, could easily produce that much seed. 545 00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:48,240 Yeah, I agree with you on that. Um, but if you're, you know, if you're, if, 546 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,680 if you've gotten to the point that there's one, Well, I, I , I'm, 547 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,960 I'm pretty sure that, uh, 548 00:33:53,980 --> 00:33:58,800 one tent can grow to be five tents pretty fast when somebody's 549 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,840 got the bug. Um, so you, you said that most of the time that you are breeding, 550 00:34:03,890 --> 00:34:08,640 um, it's outdoors. Um, let's talk a little bit about, uh, 551 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,400 doing that responsibly. Um, uh, I have, I, I have no idea what process you use, 552 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,160 but, but the, the main thing I want to hit on is, uh, 553 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,080 folks that just let their pollen go like into the air 554 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,000 wild, um, especially if they are in, uh, neighborhoods, right? Um, 555 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,680 it's, it's been very challenging here on Vashon Island. We, we, you know, we, 556 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,800 we did an education campaign here, um, and, uh, 557 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,000 we're not running into it as much as we did say in like 2015, 558 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,720 but in 20 13, 14, 15 times, um, 559 00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:48,360 we had people that were just had putting a male plant with some female plants in 560 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,880 their yard. And, you know, our whole island is only like 14 miles long. 561 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:58,200 And, um, you know, with enough people letting pollen, you know, 562 00:34:58,290 --> 00:35:03,160 go on the island, all sorts cross contamination was happening. And, 563 00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:04,813 you know, 564 00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:10,160 patient gardens got ruined by being seated because they 565 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,560 didn't know that their neighbor at the end of the block was letting 566 00:35:14,670 --> 00:35:18,720 pollen just like, just like raw dogging it out into the, 567 00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:21,520 out into the air. And so, you know, I, 568 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,440 I definitely discourage people from just letting like males go. Um, 569 00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:30,960 but you know, you're doing this at a professional level. Um, uh, you know, are, 570 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,600 are you, is that how you guys do it with the pollen? Or, or, 571 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,160 I imagine that you have more pollen control even outdoors, um, 572 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,400 where you're, where you're applying it in a more controlled way. 573 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,920 I don't know though. And, and, and, and so I'll leave that up to you to explain. 574 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,400 There are pollen isolation distances for like commercial seed production. 575 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,840 If you're going to do an outdoor, uh, production of seed, 576 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,640 which I'm talking like many, many acres of seed production. Uh, 577 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,400 otherwise, you know, all the breeding that we do. 578 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,760 And what I would do outdoors is, uh, 579 00:36:04,460 --> 00:36:07,240 the plants are bagged, 580 00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:10,560 so usually we do all female breeding, 581 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,600 and so we're partially reversing plants to self them. 582 00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:17,360 And those plants are bagged before any pollen is dropped. 583 00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:20,640 So they never release pollen openly, 584 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,120 It's just onto themselves inside the bag. And similarly, if we're doing, say, 585 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,040 a production, we will have it in a pollen isolation, like I described earlier, 586 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,910 with a, um, filtered inlet and outlet. 587 00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:37,910 And then once they start producing pollen, they don't get opened again. 588 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,590 So we're not, we're not just releasing pollen. Um, and if you, 589 00:36:41,590 --> 00:36:43,990 if you're doing something like a backyard, and this is another thing, 590 00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:45,990 like you really need to know what your goals are. 591 00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:49,230 Why is someone leaving a male out there just, you know, 592 00:36:49,230 --> 00:36:54,030 continuously poll pollinating his female or their female, um, 593 00:36:54,090 --> 00:36:56,270 you know, how many seeds are they trying to produce? 594 00:36:56,530 --> 00:37:01,530 You don't need much pollen to produce a lot of 595 00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:06,050 seed. Uh, so if you're gonna do a select pollination in your backyard, 596 00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:09,250 I would have that mail in a closet or in some, you know, 597 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:14,100 you can do it in a little greenhouse, uh, something like that. And personally, 598 00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:17,180 when I have a single mail at home like this, and it's not bagged, 599 00:37:17,610 --> 00:37:20,820 I remove all of the, any, uh, 600 00:37:20,820 --> 00:37:25,780 forming male flowers before they drop pollen until the female 601 00:37:25,790 --> 00:37:29,260 is ready to receive pollen. And then I'll let the males develop, 602 00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:33,940 collect that pollen, or pair them in the closet, bring the female inside, 603 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,100 let them, you know, uh, have sex with each other, 604 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:42,260 and then I kill the male immediately. Uh, so doing something like that, 605 00:37:42,350 --> 00:37:46,380 or a more controlled pollination, if you're trying to get a big lot of seed, 606 00:37:46,380 --> 00:37:47,213 then I, 607 00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:51,300 if you can try to bring the females to the male in an enclosed space and you can 608 00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,180 let them hang out for a couple days, even in the dark, uh, 609 00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:56,300 just to get pollinated and then kill the male. 610 00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:58,540 Or you could do it a couple times, you know, 611 00:37:58,540 --> 00:38:01,500 bring them in at night and just shake that mail all over them, 612 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:05,770 take 'em out again. Um, and you could keep the mail for a couple weeks, do that, 613 00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:07,330 and then kill the mail whenever it's done. 614 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,690 Yeah, I like that idea. And, and I think the moral the story is, is a, is like, 615 00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:12,850 you know, there, 616 00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:17,770 there's no way in one show that we are going to be able to cover all variables. 617 00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:20,530 Everyone might consider from making their first, 618 00:38:20,740 --> 00:38:22,450 they're making their first cross. 619 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,090 What we're trying to get across is that there are a lot of ways to do this and 620 00:38:27,090 --> 00:38:30,930 make sure you do your homework and try not to be irresponsible with your pollen. 621 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,210 I think that's kind of like the generally the point. 622 00:38:33,210 --> 00:38:33,890 Yeah, totally. 623 00:38:33,890 --> 00:38:37,160 And if you're just letting your mail out there pollinate everything, 624 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,880 you're also only doing, you're limiting yourself to one pollination, uh, 625 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,440 project a year as well. 626 00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:44,360 Yeah, that's true. 627 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,480 Because your entire property is gonna be covered with that one pollen. Yeah, 628 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,520 that makes a lot of sense. Right? 629 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,200 Yeah. At least 12 that's alive. 630 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right on. All right, cool. Well, 631 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,800 let's go ahead and take our first short break When we come back, 632 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,120 we're gonna talk a little bit about, um, the, 633 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,680 this new vocabulary people are using about bio intelligent seeds. So, 634 00:39:03,050 --> 00:39:06,800 um, you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Crop Advisor 635 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:07,760 Brandon Potter. 636 00:39:10,530 --> 00:39:14,730 There are so many seed banks nowadays that you really have options in who to 637 00:39:14,730 --> 00:39:17,730 choose. Not only that, if you pick the wrong seed bank, 638 00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:19,850 you could be in for a really sketchy ride. 639 00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:24,770 And that's only one of the reasons I recommend Heber Genetics Collection to my 640 00:39:24,770 --> 00:39:28,010 friends and listeners who are looking for a seed bank that's Heber, 641 00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:30,410 spelled H E M B R a. 642 00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:33,250 Heber is not just another seed bank. 643 00:39:33,490 --> 00:39:38,490 Heber is a woman operated boutique cannabis genetics provider that only sells 644 00:39:38,490 --> 00:39:41,930 thoughtfully curated seeds from the top names in cannabis breeding. 645 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,410 With over 50 breeders and over 500 strains to choose from, 646 00:39:45,410 --> 00:39:47,450 you will certainly find something you'll love. 647 00:39:48,130 --> 00:39:52,810 Heber Genetics has something for everyone with over 350 feminized strains, 648 00:39:52,830 --> 00:39:54,730 200 regular varieties, 649 00:39:54,730 --> 00:39:58,890 and over a hundred AutoFlow to choose from names you know you can trust. 650 00:39:58,890 --> 00:40:03,610 Like Humboldt Seed Company, Night Owl, Colorado, in-house genetics, 651 00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:05,770 fast buds and no automatics. 652 00:40:06,580 --> 00:40:10,170 We both know that there are other seed banks who will take your money but have 653 00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:11,210 no customer service. 654 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,570 I invited Hambra to advertise on shaping fire after hearing so many good stories 655 00:40:16,570 --> 00:40:17,730 about them from my friends, 656 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,610 they have a plus customer service with lightning fast response times. 657 00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:24,170 In most cases, 658 00:40:24,170 --> 00:40:27,210 Helene and Caitlin will get your order out the same day you place it, 659 00:40:27,210 --> 00:40:29,610 and you'll usually receive your seeds in just a few days. 660 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,690 Most seed banks are simply not this organized or interested in getting your 661 00:40:34,690 --> 00:40:35,810 seeds to you this fast, 662 00:40:36,270 --> 00:40:39,410 but Hamburg cares you even get free seeds with every order. 663 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,810 Helene and Caitlin get it. 664 00:40:41,810 --> 00:40:44,250 They have been in the cannabis growing scene for over a decade, 665 00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:48,090 so save a few bucks by using this discount code too. 666 00:40:48,270 --> 00:40:53,250 Use the code shaping fire all one word at checkout to save 10% 667 00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:54,083 off your order. 668 00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:59,610 Buy seeds from good folks who will get you great seeds reliably every time. 669 00:41:00,170 --> 00:41:03,290 Visit hebron genetics.com today. 670 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,490 That's Heber Genetics. 671 00:41:08,890 --> 00:41:12,560 As cannabis regulations become more demanding and consumers become more 672 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:13,080 educated, 673 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,680 it is increasingly important to avoid the use of chemical pesticides when 674 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,520 cultivating cannabis. 675 00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:21,640 Beneficial insects have been used for decades by the greenhouse, 676 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,640 vegetable and ornamental plant industry. And today, 677 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,600 many cannabis cultivators are moving from sprays and chemicals to beneficial 678 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,240 insects. COT has the beneficial insects, 679 00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:36,760 mights and nematodes, microbials, sticky cards and air distribution units. 680 00:41:37,020 --> 00:41:39,840 You need to partner with nature to defend your garden. 681 00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:44,520 Whether you manage acres of canopy or have a simple grow tent in your home, 682 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,920 Pritt is ready to help answer your questions and help you transition away from 683 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120 chemical sprays towards clean and natural solutions. 684 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,960 Since 1967, 685 00:41:55,230 --> 00:42:00,080 copt has assisted growers in identifying pests and devising reliable solutions 686 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,600 while providing healthy insects and mights that will protect your yield. 687 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,600 Since the 1990s, 688 00:42:05,710 --> 00:42:09,480 COPT has been a leader in cannabis pest and disease control worldwide, 689 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,120 and have highly trained consultants to assist you in Canada and the 690 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,960 United States from coast to coast with their global network of grower support 691 00:42:18,340 --> 00:42:22,440 COT can help. 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Visit cot.com today. 698 00:42:48,310 --> 00:42:52,890 One of the reasons why no till cannabis growing is so valued by farmers is 699 00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:57,170 because the Mym networks in the soil remain established from year to year. 700 00:42:57,550 --> 00:43:01,610 And we know these fungal networks are essential because they are the nutrient 701 00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:06,050 super highways that extend far and wide in the substrate to feed your plants. 702 00:43:06,510 --> 00:43:11,290 The trouble with growing in new living soils or blended cocoa substrates is that 703 00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:15,970 it takes most of the plants' life just to create these mycelium highways, 704 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,090 dmic, endo, 705 00:43:18,090 --> 00:43:22,810 microrisal fungi inoculate reduces that time and gets your plant eating a wider 706 00:43:22,810 --> 00:43:24,450 array of nutrients faster. 707 00:43:24,830 --> 00:43:29,330 And it's three times the concentration of the other popular brand in the US at 708 00:43:29,330 --> 00:43:34,290 900 Propag Yules per of two fungal species selected specifically for 709 00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:35,570 cannabis cultivation. 710 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,810 Dynami is the result of 30 years of research and trials at the Vocon Agriculture 711 00:43:41,090 --> 00:43:42,370 Research Institute in Israel. 712 00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:46,930 It has also been vigorously trialed by cannabis and food growers across the us. 713 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,970 Dynami O is now available at growth shops and on Amazon in the United States. 714 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,770 I love using dynami o to both speed up the growth of the MyUM networks in the 715 00:43:56,770 --> 00:44:00,970 soil, but also as a bios stimulant to make clone cuttings more veal. 716 00:44:01,190 --> 00:44:05,330 You can see side by side showing the comparative growth on their Instagram at 717 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:06,193 dynami o. 718 00:44:06,820 --> 00:44:10,690 If you demand reliable growing results and appreciate the importance of an 719 00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:12,770 active root zone and creating a thriving plant, 720 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,970 I encourage you to check out dynami o.com and use the store locator to find 721 00:44:17,970 --> 00:44:19,330 out where you can get yours. 722 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,530 That's d y n O m yco.com 723 00:44:25,220 --> 00:44:25,890 shaping. 724 00:44:25,890 --> 00:44:30,490 Fire listeners can get 10% off any size of dynami o on Amazon or 725 00:44:30,490 --> 00:44:35,480 dynami.com by using the discount code shaping fire, one word, 726 00:44:35,610 --> 00:44:39,440 no caps. Whether you are starting with new beds or pots, 727 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,720 or if you want to add some zing to tired soil, 728 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:46,680 choose dynami to maximize your plant's potential. Dynami O Endo, 729 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,200 Microrisal inoculate. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. 730 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,240 I'm your host Shago Lo, and my guest today is Crop Advisor Brandon Potter. 731 00:44:55,930 --> 00:44:58,440 So before the break, we were talking about, uh, you know, 732 00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,960 some of the things to consider, uh, 733 00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:04,520 when deciding whether or not you were gonna breed indoors or outdoors. And, um, 734 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,360 while people can certainly breed in any kind of a substrate, 735 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,000 there is this interesting discussion that's been going on the last few years 736 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,240 about bio intelligent seeds. And, uh, 737 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:19,520 the idea with bio intelligent seeds is that they are grown in soil 738 00:45:20,180 --> 00:45:23,480 and seeds that are grown in soil, um, 739 00:45:23,550 --> 00:45:26,600 have got a different biological makeup, 740 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,520 and they know what to do when they are presented, Uh, 741 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,720 soil again. And you know, at the beginning when I first heard that, I'm like, 742 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:40,360 that's a really cool idea, is being a living soil guy like I am. I said, 743 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,280 But I really don't know what the, what the reasons would for that would be, 744 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,680 like a, like a seeds, a seed. Um, but then last episode, um, 745 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,000 when we were talking with, uh, Jeff Lowen fells about endophytic bacteria, 746 00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:54,000 Well, 747 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,720 this is where the whole case for bio intelligence seeds I think starts because, 748 00:45:59,010 --> 00:46:02,920 um, the idea that there is endophytic bacteria, 749 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,280 which if you haven't listened to that show yet, is, um, 750 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,560 bacteria that spends some, a part of it, 751 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,720 of some part of its life cycle in the cannabis plant. 752 00:46:13,070 --> 00:46:15,520 It's interesting to find out that these, these, these, 753 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,600 these endo bacteria will, um, uh, 754 00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:24,480 come up through the roots into the plant and enter a newly forming seed. 755 00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:29,840 And there is, um, oh, I forget what it's called, but it's, 756 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,920 it's another type of bacteria, uh, 757 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,640 which means that it is bacteria from the neighboring environment that lands 758 00:46:36,730 --> 00:46:41,640 on the flower. And so, and it gets folded into the seeds, 759 00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:43,600 um, from the branch. 760 00:46:43,940 --> 00:46:48,080 And so these seeds are going to be all packed up with the bacteria that it, 761 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,960 that the seeds gonna need wherever it goes, 762 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:56,040 which makes it a more reliable and people are using this term bio intelligent 763 00:46:56,070 --> 00:47:00,720 seed, and I'm very attracted to that. Um, what are your thoughts on, 764 00:47:00,770 --> 00:47:01,680 on, uh, 765 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,440 seeds that are grown in living soil versus more inert 766 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,480 mediums like cocoa or something? 767 00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:12,480 So I definitely agree and am intrigued by, uh, 768 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,680 the interactions that are going on with the environmental, uh, 769 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,920 organisms and the seed and how they can pass from the environment to the seed 770 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,680 and, uh, back. Uh, 771 00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:27,240 I am more familiar with fungal interactions in that way cuz fungi also 772 00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:30,800 form endophytic relationships within a plant body, 773 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,760 including some within the seed. Uh, but I am learning more about the bacterial, 774 00:47:35,850 --> 00:47:40,240 uh, cycles, the rof phage, uh, and things like this. 775 00:47:40,340 --> 00:47:44,760 And there are also, of course, bacteria within the plant body, um, of the, 776 00:47:44,930 --> 00:47:49,160 of the seed. So it's in the embryo of the seed. There's also, you know, a, 777 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,120 a plethora of things on the seed coat. Um, so one of the previous practices are, 778 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,240 is often to be like, Oh, put your plants, uh, 779 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:59,720 your seeds in hydrogen peroxide or bleach water. And I, 780 00:48:00,230 --> 00:48:04,440 I would really only do that if you think there's a pathogen on the seed coat. 781 00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:05,320 Uh, 782 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:10,280 so there's definitely gonna be differences in the population that are colonizing 783 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,480 seeds that are grown in organic substrates and, 784 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:17,920 and living soil and things like this compared to, uh, 785 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,800 cocoa or more sterile media. Uh, there's still, you know, I say sterile media, 786 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,160 nothing is sterile. There's definitely organisms in there as well. 787 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,520 There population is going to be different than a different media, 788 00:48:31,170 --> 00:48:35,200 um, different types of organisms, maybe, uh, 789 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,160 species as well as total population density. Uh, you know, 790 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,760 I haven't seen specific numbers on this, but in general, I would assume, uh, 791 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,600 or expect that living soil is going to have higher diversity and more 792 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,920 likely to have beneficial organisms, uh, but not necessarily. You could also, 793 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,280 you know, pathogens and, uh, latent pathogens can also, 794 00:48:57,810 --> 00:48:59,920 uh, get into the seed, uh, 795 00:48:59,950 --> 00:49:04,400 even beri conform and endophytic infection in a cannabis plant, 796 00:49:04,810 --> 00:49:09,360 uh, potentially and not show symptoms and even get into the seed or the plant. 797 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,160 The mother plant may have cannabis on the buds and there will ber on the seed 798 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,800 coat mostly, but some of the seeds may also be, uh, internally effect infected. 799 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,680 And that's going to be cultivar path of far specific on whether 800 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,080 or not that's happening. But, um, so my point is that yes, 801 00:49:27,330 --> 00:49:31,080 there's going to be a lot of potential beneficial relationships that we can 802 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,040 exploit and how you produce the seed will affect that. Um, 803 00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:41,040 but it's also a pathogen risk that these organisms are in there. So one, 804 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,280 one thing to say about, at least for, uh, 805 00:49:43,950 --> 00:49:47,000 endophytic fungi of the aerial parts of the plant. 806 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,520 So this is the parts of the plant that are going to be producing the seed and 807 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,840 will, um, potentially, uh, 808 00:49:55,650 --> 00:49:59,200 provide the inoculate to colonize the seed. Um, 809 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,760 those fungi are usually, uh, 810 00:50:02,430 --> 00:50:06,520 acquired horizontally from the environment. So it's not just your soil, 811 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,640 it's where you're growing the plant. If you're growing that plant under, uh, 812 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,280 a canopy of a certain tree, you're going, you might, 813 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,920 you're gonna expose it to a different, uh, 814 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:21,360 potential population of endophytes than if you grew it indoors 815 00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:26,200 or under a different species of canopy tree, uh, something like that. So there, 816 00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:31,960 it's hard to predict which one's going to be most beneficial because this is all 817 00:50:32,130 --> 00:50:33,960 so new, we, uh, 818 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,120 don't really know how to manipulate it in that secondary way from environmental 819 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,120 manipulation to help inoculate the seed with the proper microorganisms. 820 00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:44,200 We are gaining some knowledge of, oh, 821 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,320 this is mic microorganism is beneficial and we can inoculate, uh, 822 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:53,280 the plant perhaps while it's growing the seed or the seed, um, post-harvest, 823 00:50:53,690 --> 00:50:58,000 um, to help it get that organism associated with it. 824 00:50:58,490 --> 00:51:02,800 Uh, you know, it, it, there's a lot unknown about it. I in general, 825 00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:06,280 the bigger the diversity, the more diverse, uh, 826 00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:09,330 the population of microbes are, 827 00:51:09,950 --> 00:51:14,810 the more resilient and more likely you will have beneficial symb in there 828 00:51:14,810 --> 00:51:17,370 with it. Uh, yes. 829 00:51:17,370 --> 00:51:18,330 Right on. I think. 830 00:51:18,330 --> 00:51:19,050 It's not guaranteed. 831 00:51:19,050 --> 00:51:21,930 Yeah, right. On a very, very, very good point. And you know, 832 00:51:21,930 --> 00:51:26,810 this whole idea of of of bacteria and uh, 833 00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:31,730 uh, fungus, that that is on board a seed. This is, 834 00:51:31,730 --> 00:51:36,690 this is brand new science and it is really strange to consider 835 00:51:36,690 --> 00:51:38,290 the idea that, uh, 836 00:51:38,290 --> 00:51:42,970 different seeds from the same mother plant 837 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,770 will have different, um, you know, 838 00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:51,770 endophytic bacteria in it, uh, because of where it is on the plant, 839 00:51:52,070 --> 00:51:56,010 and then when that those seeds are germinated, um, 840 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:58,930 that is a, um, 841 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,850 that bacteria expresses itself differently in different ways in the different 842 00:52:02,850 --> 00:52:06,810 plants. So, um, I'm gonna use the word pheno, even though it, 843 00:52:06,810 --> 00:52:10,010 it's not appropriate, but, but people will understand what I mean. 844 00:52:10,260 --> 00:52:14,610 We are always talking about different pheno in one seed run. 845 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:19,130 Um, and, and what we're realizing now is like, yeah, there are those different, 846 00:52:19,420 --> 00:52:22,690 um, uh, variety expressions within the seed run, 847 00:52:22,990 --> 00:52:27,970 but now it's even more complex because each seed is going to have 848 00:52:28,050 --> 00:52:33,050 onboarded different endophytic bacteria depending on where it was 849 00:52:33,050 --> 00:52:37,330 in the plant. And us trying to figure out how influential that is, 850 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,330 that opens up a whole bunch of new doors. 851 00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:43,970 You mentioning making seeds under the canopy of a particular plant, um, 852 00:52:43,970 --> 00:52:47,690 you know, or a tree or something. We may find out that the, the, 853 00:52:47,870 --> 00:52:49,610 the fungus that's, you know, 854 00:52:49,610 --> 00:52:54,530 being dropped from these plants in its own pollen that's in the air might 855 00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:56,530 also be influencing our cannabis plants. 856 00:52:56,530 --> 00:52:58,650 And that's just like a whole new brave new world. 857 00:53:00,180 --> 00:53:04,910 Yeah. And, and the way some of these organisms are inherited by the plant are, 858 00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:07,830 some of them are passed from the parent to the seed, 859 00:53:08,170 --> 00:53:10,110 and that's vertical transmission. 860 00:53:10,110 --> 00:53:13,590 Some of them are acquired from the environment during the plant's life cycle, 861 00:53:13,790 --> 00:53:15,910 which would be horizontal transmission. 862 00:53:16,170 --> 00:53:20,310 And some plants are more prone to acquiring, um, 863 00:53:20,550 --> 00:53:24,870 their endophytic partners and some lean towards systemic, 864 00:53:25,210 --> 00:53:28,240 uh, vertical transmission of them. So something like a, 865 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:32,320 there's a lot of grass into fights that are passed, uh, parent to offspring. 866 00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:37,440 And I'm really not sure where cannabis lies along that continuum. If you can, 867 00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:39,120 uh, you know, 868 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,880 if you take a variety and it has a certain microbiome associated 869 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,720 with its internal seed, you grow that a couple times. 870 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:48,480 Is it keeping that through generations? 871 00:53:48,750 --> 00:53:53,200 This is something I'm unclear of for cannabis. Uh, and it might be, you know, 872 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,040 maybe some of the organisms are kept and some of them are lost. Uh, 873 00:53:57,050 --> 00:53:59,200 so there's definitely a lot of work to do. 874 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,920 I there's a potential here too for a scientist if they 875 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,880 can figure out a stably inherited, uh, you know, 876 00:54:07,890 --> 00:54:12,560 microbe that they can sell to breeders or seed producers to improve their, 877 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,600 their existing varieties. That's, uh, you know, 878 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,680 definitely a marketable product for someone if that's. 879 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,880 Possible. Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting idea. 880 00:54:22,690 --> 00:54:25,360 In fact, they actually do that for grasses. 881 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,920 There are endophyte inoculated grasses, usually fungal endophytes, um, 882 00:54:30,370 --> 00:54:34,960 because grass endophytes often have a toxin that is poisonous to 883 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,280 livestock. So they've developed these endophytes that are symb with the grass, 884 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,680 they help reduce insect bi, but they don't poison the live livestock. 885 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,840 Right on. All right, so let's, uh, let's, uh, cycle ourselves back, um, uh, 886 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,800 off the theory and back onto, uh, 887 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,240 checking these boxes for the the new grower. So, so, so, you know, 888 00:54:57,420 --> 00:55:01,560 the, the, the new breeder rather, So the breeder knows why they want to grow, 889 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,080 and they've got an idea of, 890 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,520 of what they want to breed and they figured out whether or not they're gonna do 891 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,160 it indoor and outdoor and how they're gonna control their pollen. And, um, 892 00:55:12,180 --> 00:55:16,320 and so now they're actually like choosing their plants, right? And, 893 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,880 and the actual characteristics now, um, you know, 894 00:55:21,970 --> 00:55:25,910 for, for in an advanced breeder who are, 895 00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:29,110 who are going to go, um, many generations, 896 00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:32,510 this can get confusing very quickly, 897 00:55:33,370 --> 00:55:36,510 but what I'm gonna ask you is that if, 898 00:55:36,510 --> 00:55:40,710 if we're just talking about the first time somebody is making a cross, 899 00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:44,550 and so they are going to be looking for a, 900 00:55:44,550 --> 00:55:48,550 a male that they like and they are looking for, um, 901 00:55:48,980 --> 00:55:53,910 a female or potentially a group of females that they like, um, 902 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,790 to just get this what I'll call F one. Um, 903 00:55:59,380 --> 00:56:04,150 what are some of the plant characteristics that you 904 00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:08,150 recommend that a first time breeder look at, um, 905 00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:10,790 when considering their males and females? 906 00:56:13,010 --> 00:56:17,600 So again, you're gonna have to start with whatever the breeding goal is. 907 00:56:18,050 --> 00:56:23,000 Uh, and you might have certain goals that are, you know, required checks that, 908 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,400 that you have to mark off and some other that are negotiable. 909 00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:30,320 And there might be traits that come up in your program as you move along that 910 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,120 you, you know, reprioritize that list. Um, 911 00:56:34,580 --> 00:56:39,560 but in, in general for small scale growers, um, 912 00:56:41,050 --> 00:56:44,000 it, one of the, okay, so the first decision you have to make is, 913 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,800 are you doing regular seeds or feminized seeds? If you, um, 914 00:56:48,460 --> 00:56:49,960 are doing regular seeds, 915 00:56:50,310 --> 00:56:54,040 I actually generally advise against choosing a single male 916 00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:57,200 to choose a single male properly. 917 00:56:57,340 --> 00:57:01,400 You would want to create a bunch of test crosses with a bunch of different males 918 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,200 and pick, pick the male that actually passes on the genes that you want, 919 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,680 which is, uh, quite a bit of work. You, 920 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:12,040 that's how a large scale breeder might do it. But for a home breeder, 921 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,280 that's a lot of work that's, uh, 922 00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:19,360 I think might be better spent moving forward in generations as either a half 923 00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,800 si population where you're selecting the female that you can get a good read on 924 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,600 the characteristics from and you're using a group of males. Um, 925 00:57:30,050 --> 00:57:32,160 or you could do, uh, you know, 926 00:57:34,270 --> 00:57:38,120 most traditionally people do pedigree breeding where they're picking one male to 927 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,720 one female. And the risk with that is if you pick the wrong male, 928 00:57:41,740 --> 00:57:44,560 you send your line down the wrong road. 929 00:57:44,970 --> 00:57:48,480 If you're buffering that with a group of males and you're picking based on 930 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,720 characteristics, you know, are present in a female, uh, it's gonna take longer. 931 00:57:53,220 --> 00:57:54,640 But, uh, 932 00:57:55,670 --> 00:58:00,560 long term you might be more likely to reach a product without having 933 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,560 to go back and start again. Um, but it, 934 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,720 so for characteristics that I would look for in either a male or female one, 935 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,360 you want to have whatever characteristics you're breeding for should be present 936 00:58:11,930 --> 00:58:16,240 in both if possible, or you're planning on working more generations to get it, 937 00:58:16,650 --> 00:58:20,480 uh, standardized. Uh, but general vigor, you know, uh, 938 00:58:22,490 --> 00:58:26,840 disease resistance, things like that on top of, you know, 939 00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,760 most people will be selecting for terpene structure, resin, uh, potency, 940 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,760 things, things like that will be in most people's selection list. Um. 941 00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:41,740 So in your example, when you have, uh, multiple males, um, 942 00:58:41,870 --> 00:58:45,100 in that example, you're gonna have multiple males and multiple females. 943 00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:49,180 Are you trying to hit one female with multiple males? And then you're gonna, 944 00:58:49,180 --> 00:58:53,820 you're gonna sift and search the, the seeds that that one female, uh, 945 00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:58,940 uh, puts out. I've, I've never, I've not heard this, uh, multiple males, uh, 946 00:58:59,300 --> 00:59:02,300 approach unless people were trying to, uh, 947 00:59:02,300 --> 00:59:06,260 like do an open pollination and, um, you know, preserve, 948 00:59:06,740 --> 00:59:08,580 preserve a line that might be lost or something. 949 00:59:09,170 --> 00:59:13,180 Mm-hmm. . Um, so I, I like to work on a population basis, 950 00:59:14,030 --> 00:59:15,460 uh, especially for early, 951 00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:20,820 early generations of lines before I start in breeding. Uh, 952 00:59:22,410 --> 00:59:27,390 but so basically why I, 953 00:59:27,660 --> 00:59:31,510 I, I lean against single males. I, you, 954 00:59:32,430 --> 00:59:34,950 let's see, how, how should I explain this ? Um, 955 00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:40,070 okay. So when you do a selfieing, 956 00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:44,950 you're increasing the homozygosity to the next generation by 957 00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:48,830 50%. If you do a full SIV mat, 958 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,830 so a male to a female, or one female to a separate female, 959 00:59:54,340 --> 00:59:58,750 you're increasing it by 25%, and then it goes down half. 960 00:59:58,750 --> 01:00:02,230 If you're doing a half siv mat where you're picking, uh, 961 01:00:02,610 --> 01:00:07,230 one select female mother plant out of a population of males that 962 01:00:07,230 --> 01:00:12,110 pollinated it. So it's the slowest form of breeding in that respect. 963 01:00:13,850 --> 01:00:18,670 But you are moving the line forward in a more general way. 964 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,270 Whereas if you're doing the, 965 01:00:20,270 --> 01:00:25,030 the more specific in breeding types of breeding that are more traditional, 966 01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:27,710 say SIB is most traditional, um, 967 01:00:27,930 --> 01:00:30,790 for cannabis or celling is a lot more common. 968 01:00:30,790 --> 01:00:34,830 Now you're moving it towards homozygosity a lot faster. 969 01:00:35,290 --> 01:00:40,190 But to screen the amount of lines to get the exceptional plants will be, 970 01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,630 uh, more difficult. You have to plant larger populations. 971 01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:48,310 You're more likely to take a step down an inbred line that 972 01:00:48,310 --> 01:00:50,910 isn't the good step. Um, 973 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,430 so it's not that multiple males is better than doing it that way, 974 01:00:55,430 --> 01:00:57,670 but for a home breeder, a small scale breeder, 975 01:00:57,740 --> 01:01:02,070 that's the technique I would lean towards more of like an open pollinated 976 01:01:02,070 --> 01:01:05,330 variety, uh, uh, 977 01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:10,210 production method rather than in breeding. When you inbred, 978 01:01:10,210 --> 01:01:14,650 you're generally producing parent lines to make hybrids out of, and, 979 01:01:14,650 --> 01:01:18,770 and that is gonna be much more difficult for a home breeder to produce 980 01:01:18,910 --> 01:01:23,370 exceptional hybrids than, you know, someone with a really large operation. 981 01:01:25,140 --> 01:01:25,960 So, um, 982 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,610 I know that some people resist going about their breeding projects 983 01:01:30,610 --> 01:01:35,090 because they don't believe that they have got like a lot of room, 984 01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:38,850 um, for large sifts. I mean, we, 985 01:01:38,850 --> 01:01:42,490 we all idealize large sifts and in, and in a and, 986 01:01:42,490 --> 01:01:46,690 and in a perfect world where you've got lots of time, labor and space, 987 01:01:46,690 --> 01:01:50,850 that's awesome. Um, but you know, when, when a, 988 01:01:50,850 --> 01:01:53,650 when a new breeder says to me, Oh, I, 989 01:01:53,650 --> 01:01:56,850 I would really like to cross this and this, but you know, 990 01:01:56,850 --> 01:01:59,330 I don't really have all that much, um, 991 01:01:59,790 --> 01:02:03,210 all that much room for a lot of plants, or, you know, 992 01:02:04,180 --> 01:02:08,650 or I usually just say, Just do it dude or person, you know, Just, 993 01:02:08,650 --> 01:02:13,570 just just go ahead and do it and get your first one done. You don't have to, 994 01:02:13,870 --> 01:02:17,050 you know, you can always get better as, 995 01:02:17,060 --> 01:02:20,200 as new projects come about for you. And then, 996 01:02:20,220 --> 01:02:24,360 and then after your original cross, if you're going to start in breeding, 997 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,480 well then, then you can fine tune it there. Um, 998 01:02:28,380 --> 01:02:32,120 you talk about a lot of these different variables that we want to control for, 999 01:02:32,380 --> 01:02:35,120 but, but I, am I right that, 1000 01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:40,040 that that controlling for all these variables is really about getting more 1001 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,800 and more sophisticated. And if you've got, you know, 1002 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,320 your male line that you like and your female line that you like, 1003 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,680 just get 'em in the same damn like space and let nature do its thing. 1004 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,840 Like you don't have to overthink this. 1005 01:02:54,750 --> 01:02:58,400 Yeah, absolutely. And this is, this comes back to what your goals are. 1006 01:02:58,400 --> 01:02:59,480 If you just wanna make, 1007 01:02:59,780 --> 01:03:03,640 say you wanna make seed to have seed to pheno hunt for the rest of your life, 1008 01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:08,760 you could do that in one grow. And if you have two lines that you like, you, 1009 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,240 you know, smash them together, 1010 01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:14,920 you have seed and you can either move forward generational with that seed or 1011 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,200 just pheno hunt that seed forever. And for that, you know, 1012 01:03:18,670 --> 01:03:21,160 especially if someone just wants, Oh, 1013 01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,600 I just want a bunch of Dan seed and have it forever, 1014 01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:27,080 you could get two elite female clones that, you know, you like, 1015 01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:30,520 put them together and other people would start a seed company for that. 1016 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,000 And that's very easy if you have access to those original genetics to do. 1017 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,880 But if you have two lines that you like, uh, you know, absolutely don't, 1018 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,400 don't put barriers up for yourself, um, 1019 01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:46,570 and just, just get it done. Make the seeds and see what you end up with. Uh, 1020 01:03:47,140 --> 01:03:50,250 there's a lot of different directions you could take that as well. If you, 1021 01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:54,730 if you are an indoor grower and you have those plants, uh, on hold, 1022 01:03:54,730 --> 01:03:58,330 you can do back cross breeding type things if you're selecting for certain 1023 01:03:58,330 --> 01:04:00,330 traits in one of the parents, uh, 1024 01:04:00,380 --> 01:04:03,530 or you can inre or you can just grow that seed. 1025 01:04:03,530 --> 01:04:05,810 For. So we, we, we now are, uh, 1026 01:04:05,810 --> 01:04:09,810 talking about being in a situation where we have, we have chosen our, um, 1027 01:04:09,990 --> 01:04:14,690 you know, either one or now I'm liking your case for multiple males. And, 1028 01:04:14,940 --> 01:04:19,930 um, you've got your one or multiple females depending on what your goals are and 1029 01:04:20,090 --> 01:04:24,450 what your, um, you know, how much space you have. Um, 1030 01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,130 what do you do about the, 1031 01:04:27,130 --> 01:04:32,130 the pollen from dropping from the male when the female is 1032 01:04:32,130 --> 01:04:34,690 ready for it, Right? Because, um, you know, 1033 01:04:34,690 --> 01:04:38,730 since you're gonna be bringing together two different varieties, um, you know, 1034 01:04:38,730 --> 01:04:43,650 it's entirely likely that the mail is going to be ready at a different time 1035 01:04:43,780 --> 01:04:48,010 as the female, And I've not run into this since I've, I've only done this once. 1036 01:04:48,140 --> 01:04:52,330 Um, I just, I just put him next to each other and I got lucky. Um, 1037 01:04:52,330 --> 01:04:57,170 would you speak to this idea of, of having the pollen drop at the right time? 1038 01:04:57,540 --> 01:05:01,930 Um, and, and you'll probably end up tying this back into the show to, um, 1039 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:03,410 your idea for just, 1040 01:05:03,410 --> 01:05:07,490 just maybe bagging some of the branches to collect it and put it on later. 1041 01:05:07,490 --> 01:05:11,010 But just kinda speak to this idea to the male and female being ready at 1042 01:05:11,010 --> 01:05:14,850 different times, which unfortunately happens with humans too. 1043 01:05:18,290 --> 01:05:23,080 So I hopefully you have some background on how long your plants are gonna 1044 01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,040 flower or something like that. Uh, 1045 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,360 generally I would start the mail first because even if it's ready first, it you, 1046 01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,640 it'll produce pollen for a certain, you know, 1047 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:36,280 window of time and you can get your female, uh, ready in that time, 1048 01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:40,440 or you can save the pollen. Uh, generally females, you know, 1049 01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,560 people like to hold the pollen off of them until they're, you know, 1050 01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:48,040 if you have an eight week flower, maybe week three, so that it has enough, uh, 1051 01:05:48,210 --> 01:05:51,160 stigmas to produce a good seed yield. If you pollinate earlier than that, 1052 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,640 it'll be fine. You just might get a lower seed deal. Uh, 1053 01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,040 your seeds might be bigger. Um, 1054 01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,440 you could also have the female and male together the whole time, 1055 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,600 and it'll eventually produce new flowers. That's fine as well. 1056 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,620 You just have some different seed ages. Um, 1057 01:06:08,210 --> 01:06:13,160 so as far as the best way to pollinate, uh, you know, 1058 01:06:14,980 --> 01:06:18,770 if you can get your male dropping flowers at the great right time or a little 1059 01:06:18,770 --> 01:06:19,370 bit before that, 1060 01:06:19,370 --> 01:06:22,810 and you hold your mail in a separate area until you want to pollinate, 1061 01:06:22,810 --> 01:06:26,770 that is ideal. Um, if you have to save pollen, 1062 01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:30,250 I personally try to avoid saving pollen. It's, 1063 01:06:30,250 --> 01:06:32,570 it's always been hit or miss for me, Uh, 1064 01:06:32,570 --> 01:06:36,050 but you can get the pollen collected, 1065 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,490 remove any flower material from there, 1066 01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:43,700 and save it with desiccant in, uh, the freezer. 1067 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,740 And that should last theoretically a long time. 1068 01:06:47,740 --> 01:06:52,060 I have never pushed it because saving pollen has always not worked out well for 1069 01:06:52,060 --> 01:06:56,460 me. It always, uh, get better seed production when it's fresh. Um, 1070 01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:01,810 similarly, like, uh, feminized, uh, 1071 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,890 pollen producers especially sometimes have trouble dropping the pollen 1072 01:07:06,910 --> 01:07:10,810 out of the answers. So you can collect the entire flowers, 1073 01:07:11,070 --> 01:07:11,970 dry the flowers, 1074 01:07:11,970 --> 01:07:16,410 and then kind of grind them up and the pollen will fall out and then apply that 1075 01:07:16,410 --> 01:07:20,410 by hand. Uh, that works all right. I, 1076 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:24,250 it's always preferable that the pollen just drops and it's less work and 1077 01:07:24,250 --> 01:07:28,970 everything works out all right. Um, but usually I would just, 1078 01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,390 uh, get rid of the mail as soon as you pollinate, 1079 01:07:32,460 --> 01:07:36,550 unless you're leaving it in a tent or something like that and letting it go 1080 01:07:36,550 --> 01:07:37,383 until harvest. 1081 01:07:37,940 --> 01:07:40,670 Yeah, I agree with you about saving pollen. Uh, 1082 01:07:40,900 --> 01:07:44,390 I have found that most of the time when I've done that, um, it gets, 1083 01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:49,190 it gets moist in rots or it starts to clump on the female flower when I go to 1084 01:07:49,190 --> 01:07:53,750 apply it. So, um, you know, this is, you know, 1085 01:07:53,750 --> 01:07:57,910 in retrospect this is pretty cheesy, but, um, when I, when I did my cross, 1086 01:07:58,180 --> 01:08:02,270 I literally wrapped the mail into the, 1087 01:08:02,270 --> 01:08:06,070 the female plants, um, and put them on a, um, 1088 01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:11,950 uh, on, on my deck in a, um, in a tent and just, 1089 01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:16,240 uh, you know, let them, let them do it. And, um, naturally, 1090 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,080 and I got lucky cause I didn't have to save it. Um, but you know, 1091 01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:22,120 there's a lot of people who save pollen successfully, 1092 01:08:22,260 --> 01:08:25,840 and there are certainly ways to do it. Um, but, you know, 1093 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,640 since we're talking about somebody doing this for their first time, um, 1094 01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:34,320 we wanna try to continually keep this as as simple as possible. Um, 1095 01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,040 where in the, 1096 01:08:36,290 --> 01:08:41,040 in the process do you normally add the pollen to the female print? And when, 1097 01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,200 and when I say process, I mean like where in the, in the flowering cycle, 1098 01:08:44,210 --> 01:08:49,200 do you want to, um, um, you know, encourage the pollen, uh, 1099 01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:53,920 immediately as soon as you start to see pistols? Or do you, 1100 01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,120 do you wanna wait until the flowers are, are more mature? Uh. 1101 01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:01,720 So generally I would wait until the flowers are a little more mature. However, 1102 01:09:01,810 --> 01:09:05,560 it, depending on your situation, if there is potential for, say, 1103 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:06,560 pollen contamination, 1104 01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,680 you might want to get that pollen all over the branch or plant that you're 1105 01:09:11,150 --> 01:09:16,080 making so that if there is a few pollen grains from a, you know, 1106 01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,560 fiber hemp grow a couple miles away, blowing around there, 1107 01:09:20,150 --> 01:09:23,280 you've already fully pollinated with your plant, uh, 1108 01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:27,200 with your preferred pollen source, uh, to limit, uh, 1109 01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,520 potential contamination. Otherwise, 1110 01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:31,960 I would wait until there's a little more flour and, 1111 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:33,440 and you get better seed yields. 1112 01:09:34,010 --> 01:09:35,690 Right on. So, um, 1113 01:09:35,690 --> 01:09:39,570 how do you know that you have effectively pollinated your plants? 1114 01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:44,530 A lot of first time, uh, breeders, you know, they'll, they'll either, you know, 1115 01:09:44,530 --> 01:09:49,450 add the pollen themselves or put 'em near each other and they're hoping for 1116 01:09:49,450 --> 01:09:51,890 it. And then, and then because they know they don't have a lot of experience, 1117 01:09:51,890 --> 01:09:55,650 they're all like, Did, did it, did it do it? You know? So what are, 1118 01:09:55,810 --> 01:09:59,970 what are the first visual signs that the plant has, um, 1119 01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,170 accepted the pollen successfully? 1120 01:10:02,170 --> 01:10:05,210 Yeah, and sometimes it can be hard to tell. Um, and, 1121 01:10:05,210 --> 01:10:09,650 and generally the first things that you'll see is that the pistols kind of start 1122 01:10:09,650 --> 01:10:12,570 to turn brown. This can also just happen by touching them. 1123 01:10:12,580 --> 01:10:16,570 So if you touched them, it might just turn brown, cuz you touched them . 1124 01:10:16,570 --> 01:10:20,050 But it's, it's, it kind of becomes distinctive once you get an eye for it. 1125 01:10:20,050 --> 01:10:23,330 It's like a certain way that the, the pistol shrivels back. 1126 01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:28,170 And then pretty soon within a week maybe you can see, uh, the of, 1127 01:10:28,170 --> 01:10:31,570 of you'll start to develop into a seed, uh, through the bra. 1128 01:10:31,740 --> 01:10:36,690 At what point, like, um, will they start to see seeds form? 1129 01:10:36,770 --> 01:10:41,090 Like I know that we'll talk more about how long to let the seeds to run and, 1130 01:10:41,090 --> 01:10:45,850 and mature during the, uh, down the line in this conversation. Um, 1131 01:10:45,850 --> 01:10:50,130 but when will they start seeing the, the green, uh, 1132 01:10:50,130 --> 01:10:52,650 very young seeds, um, start to form. 1133 01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,810 It's a little bit plant dependent, depending how like, uh, 1134 01:10:56,190 --> 01:11:00,210 the structure of their bral that's surrounding what's going to become the seed. 1135 01:11:00,500 --> 01:11:04,130 Uh, but as, as soon as a week I can see them sometimes, 1136 01:11:04,130 --> 01:11:08,810 and they usually appear white at first and the pistols still are attached, Uh, 1137 01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:11,330 you kind of can see them poking out sometimes. 1138 01:11:11,780 --> 01:11:15,360 Um, you know, you hit on femini seeds briefly, 1139 01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,400 and I want to go back to that for one moment. So, you know, 1140 01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,880 this show is not about, uh, you know, breeding or, you know, 1141 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:26,040 making femini seeds in their importance. Uh, we've done that on other shows, 1142 01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:30,200 but, but I would just like you to speak to the idea of, 1143 01:11:30,450 --> 01:11:32,600 of the first time breeder, 1144 01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:37,600 considering whether or not they want to make femini seeds. 1145 01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,080 Just walk us through like, you know, 1146 01:11:40,270 --> 01:11:43,920 what those considerations might be for the first time breeder. 1147 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,560 Yeah, so there's definitely positives and negatives. The, 1148 01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:51,400 the first positive for a growing female only like a female 1149 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:56,360 only breeding pro project is that you're getting a read on both sides of 1150 01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,080 whatever cross you're gonna make, uh, so you can make more effective selections. 1151 01:12:00,810 --> 01:12:04,160 Uh, the, the major drawback to femini seed, 1152 01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,360 especially for home producers is that it's less reliable and that some, 1153 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,240 some plants don't reverse as well. 1154 01:12:10,340 --> 01:12:12,800 And you're more likely to have a pollen failure. 1155 01:12:13,900 --> 01:12:16,600 You can have a nicking failure where like, you know, 1156 01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:20,520 especially you mentioned earlier about getting the male flowers at the right 1157 01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:22,440 time as the female is ready. You know, 1158 01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:26,720 if you have a short flowering indica and you're trying to cross that to 1159 01:12:27,390 --> 01:12:30,160 a long flowering tropical variety, uh, 1160 01:12:30,540 --> 01:12:35,360 you might want to have the short flowering 1161 01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,480 variety be the pollen donor, 1162 01:12:37,570 --> 01:12:41,720 or you're gonna have to flower that long flowering variety far before the short 1163 01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,440 flower flowering variety. Cuz you could, you know, 1164 01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:48,160 you could trigger a tropical variety and it doesn't produce pollen for another 1165 01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,560 eight weeks. Meanwhile, the other plant's done. Um, 1166 01:12:52,610 --> 01:12:56,680 so with femini seed, you're more likely to get a, a pollen failure, 1167 01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:57,440 like I mentioned, 1168 01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:00,720 where either you're gonna have to put extra work into collecting the flower and 1169 01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:02,720 helping that pollen escape, uh, 1170 01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:07,280 or it just doesn't produce very viable pollen and you get lower seed yields. 1171 01:13:07,650 --> 01:13:10,600 Uh, so, and you don't wanna be, if you're having a long term breeding project, 1172 01:13:10,850 --> 01:13:15,480 if you're having pollination issues from the beginning, that's a red flag. Uh, 1173 01:13:15,480 --> 01:13:18,680 so some varieties are gonna be better as regular varieties for, 1174 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,280 for breeding because of that, uh, for home breeders, um, 1175 01:13:23,730 --> 01:13:28,240 or seed seed producers. Uh, but as far as functionality like, you know, 1176 01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:32,320 femini seed isn't genetically modified or anything like that, 1177 01:13:32,410 --> 01:13:34,000 as far as I'm aware, 1178 01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,840 there is no functional difference in the plants that are grown from it. 1179 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,720 You can breed female, uh, femini seed to regular seed. 1180 01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:45,240 You can breed femini seed only for generations. That's fine. Um, 1181 01:13:45,730 --> 01:13:47,400 so yeah, those are, 1182 01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,960 those are the major drawback I see about femini seed is pollen production. 1183 01:13:50,980 --> 01:13:55,160 And you have to understand at least some about the technology of how to reverse 1184 01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,480 a plant, which is pretty accessible nowadays. 1185 01:13:57,580 --> 01:14:02,040 All right. Um, so let's go ahead and take our second, uh, short break. 1186 01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:06,560 When we come back, we're gonna talk about, uh, judging when to, uh, 1187 01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:11,080 collect the seeds and, uh, harvest them, handling them and, 1188 01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:14,840 and, and prepping them for whatever you're gonna do next. Um, 1189 01:14:15,060 --> 01:14:16,560 you are listening to Shaping Fire, 1190 01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,080 and my guest today is Crop Advisor Brandon Potter. 1191 01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,530 Once you've discovered the benefits of using cannabis, 1192 01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:28,650 it's a very small step to start making your own edibles, gummies, lotions, 1193 01:14:28,650 --> 01:14:31,170 tinctures, and concentrated oils at home. 1194 01:14:31,740 --> 01:14:36,090 Magical butter has been helping cannabis consumers become self-sufficient for 1195 01:14:36,090 --> 01:14:39,970 over a decade. 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I just said it. 1205 01:15:11,370 --> 01:15:13,970 And walk away with the simple touch of a button. 1206 01:15:14,070 --> 01:15:17,010 The magical butter machine grinds, heats, 1207 01:15:17,090 --> 01:15:21,610 stirs and steeps your herbal extract all at the correct time interval and 1208 01:15:21,610 --> 01:15:25,810 temperature for the perfect infusion every time. As a result, 1209 01:15:25,830 --> 01:15:30,210 you achieve your desired infusion easily, safely, and consistently. 1210 01:15:30,490 --> 01:15:34,770 Check out the magical butter Instagram to see the machine in action and don't 1211 01:15:34,770 --> 01:15:36,130 feel like you have to go it alone. 1212 01:15:36,130 --> 01:15:40,930 There is a huge community on Facebook called Magical Butter Users United 1213 01:15:40,930 --> 01:15:45,570 sharing recipes and best practices so you can learn at your own pace from others 1214 01:15:45,570 --> 01:15:47,290 who are already doing it successfully. 1215 01:15:47,950 --> 01:15:52,490 Now is the time to get your own magical butter machine and save money while 1216 01:15:52,490 --> 01:15:57,210 enjoying cannabis. Use the discount code shaping fire one word, 1217 01:15:57,210 --> 01:16:01,890 no caps to get 10% off. Visit magical butter.com today. 1218 01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,780 One of the challenges with buying AutoFlow seeds is that often you'll have as 1219 01:16:08,780 --> 01:16:13,780 many different pheno as you'll have seeds in a pack that can be fun, sure, 1220 01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:18,700 but so many varieties in one pack is a sign of an immature seed line that hasn't 1221 01:16:18,700 --> 01:16:19,533 been worked enough. 1222 01:16:20,250 --> 01:16:24,260 I prefer my auto flowers to be worked enough that each pheno in the pack really 1223 01:16:24,260 --> 01:16:27,140 captures the aspects that the breeder was intending. 1224 01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:32,890 This is why I recommend no automatics to my friends and listeners who grow 1225 01:16:32,970 --> 01:16:34,890 automatic flowering cannabis seeds. 1226 01:16:35,740 --> 01:16:38,730 No automatic seeds are not just crossed and released. 1227 01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:43,650 They are painstakingly sifted again and again tested at a wide range of 1228 01:16:43,650 --> 01:16:48,330 conditions and taken to a level of maturity that each plant will be recognizable 1229 01:16:48,330 --> 01:16:51,570 by its traits, traits that were heart earned, 1230 01:16:51,660 --> 01:16:54,490 so that you can have your best growth cycle ever. 1231 01:16:55,460 --> 01:17:00,250 No automatics became a trusted and loved brand in cannabis over the last 10 1232 01:17:00,250 --> 01:17:05,090 years as Mandalorian Genetics and recently changed their name to No Automatics. 1233 01:17:05,670 --> 01:17:10,520 The only thing that has changed is the name Founder Dan Jimmy continues to 1234 01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:15,080 pour his passion of breeding cannabis into every variety he releases for you to 1235 01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:15,913 grow. 1236 01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:21,080 Check out the Nome Automatics Instagram at no underscore 1237 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,520 automatics to see the impressive plants folks are growing. 1238 01:17:25,060 --> 01:17:29,840 You can score no automatic seeds in feminized or regular at your 1239 01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,440 favorite seed provider listed in the vendor section of their website. 1240 01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,880 Farms interested in bulk seeds of more than a thousand should reach out through 1241 01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,640 the website too. While on the website, 1242 01:17:40,730 --> 01:17:44,200 be sure to check out the Nome Automatic shirts and other merch section. 1243 01:17:45,090 --> 01:17:48,680 If you want Reliable Seeds, hand built from effort, 1244 01:17:48,910 --> 01:17:53,200 expert selection and experience. Choose no automatics. 1245 01:17:56,430 --> 01:17:57,010 For decades, 1246 01:17:57,010 --> 01:18:01,210 Americans have enjoyed cannabis flowers and joints and bongs and bowls. 1247 01:18:01,590 --> 01:18:05,370 And now with the normalization of cannabis use increasing across the country, 1248 01:18:05,620 --> 01:18:10,410 we have the opportunity to enjoy smoking cannabis luxuries that simply were not 1249 01:18:10,410 --> 01:18:14,770 attainable. Before North Coast hand rolls, blunts, 1250 01:18:14,940 --> 01:18:19,650 cannons, rosn infused donuts and Canna Gars available in the state of Michigan 1251 01:18:20,290 --> 01:18:25,050 North Coast focuses on flavor over everything else instead of 1252 01:18:25,050 --> 01:18:26,210 growing their own flower. 1253 01:18:26,290 --> 01:18:30,770 North Coast goes out into the cultivation community and creates relationships 1254 01:18:30,770 --> 01:18:34,810 with the best growers working with the best new cannabis varieties available. 1255 01:18:35,440 --> 01:18:37,810 Surely heavy THC is a factor, 1256 01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:42,730 but North Coast focuses on aroma complex terpene profiles 1257 01:18:42,750 --> 01:18:46,490 and taste that continues throughout the entire smoking experience. 1258 01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:50,890 The North Coast team curates flowers, like others curate art. 1259 01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,970 They seek out the best talent, build relationships, 1260 01:18:54,010 --> 01:18:56,450 helps them take their product to the highest levels, 1261 01:18:56,630 --> 01:19:01,450 and then buys their well cured flowers in order to hand roll them just for you. 1262 01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:03,970 I really like their hand blown glass tips. 1263 01:19:04,710 --> 01:19:09,250 And North Coast has branched out beyond can gars into Rosn Solventless, 1264 01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:13,770 THCA diamonds and exceptional hash rosn carts for on the Go. 1265 01:19:14,090 --> 01:19:18,850 Cannabis connoisseurs too North Coast provides you with attainable luxury, 1266 01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:23,130 offering you an ultra premium smoking experience at a price that seems 1267 01:19:23,130 --> 01:19:24,930 reasonable and repeatable. 1268 01:19:25,740 --> 01:19:29,250 To find out more about North Coast line of cannabis products, 1269 01:19:29,330 --> 01:19:32,690 visit their Instagram at North Coast dot rolling. 1270 01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:36,850 That's North Coast Dot rolling. And when in Michigan, 1271 01:19:37,150 --> 01:19:40,770 Ask for North Coast at your favorite shop North Coast. 1272 01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,150 Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I'm your host, 1273 01:19:44,150 --> 01:19:47,270 Shingle Lo and my guest today is Crop Advisor Brandon Potter. 1274 01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,150 So here we are at the big finish. So, um, 1275 01:19:50,150 --> 01:19:54,790 now we've got plants that have got seeds in them. Um, 1276 01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:58,710 we have successfully, uh, pollinated and we are, uh, 1277 01:19:58,710 --> 01:20:03,230 so grateful to have reached this point with the plant. Um, you know, 1278 01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,520 chances are by the time somebody is at this point, 1279 01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,400 they have already grown cannabis before, 1280 01:20:10,570 --> 01:20:15,280 so they know how to successfully grow and harvest cannabis. 1281 01:20:15,730 --> 01:20:16,960 Um, in your experience, 1282 01:20:17,140 --> 01:20:22,040 are there any other particular care instructions that are different than 1283 01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:27,040 growing a regular plant? When you're growing for seed? Um, uh, 1284 01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:29,560 I'm thinking like, you know, different, um, you know, 1285 01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:34,720 different nutrients that you would normally use or different or different light 1286 01:20:34,850 --> 01:20:36,160 or, I don't know, anything. 1287 01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:39,960 Is there anything different when a seed is being grown for, excuse me, 1288 01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:43,440 when a plant is being growed for seed than when we're just, uh, 1289 01:20:43,690 --> 01:20:46,320 growing it for smokeable usable flower? 1290 01:20:48,090 --> 01:20:48,923 Um, 1291 01:20:49,010 --> 01:20:53,800 so generally I would give it more of a veg nutrient type profile 1292 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,120 through its entire life, uh, 1293 01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:59,760 than if I were smoking for flour and I wouldn't do any type of flushing or 1294 01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:03,320 anything like that. Uh, you want the plant to kind of csse on its own, 1295 01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:07,360 not because it's being starved of any nutrients. Um, 1296 01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:10,920 other than that it's, it's pretty similar to growing for flour. 1297 01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:14,600 Right on. So for a lot of folks, you know, the, the, 1298 01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:19,120 the trying to figure out when to harvest is one of the more 1299 01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:23,040 challenging aspects because, um, for many people, 1300 01:21:23,250 --> 01:21:26,200 if they're doing photos, um, you know, people, 1301 01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:29,360 a lot of people are just looking for, uh, the, you know, 1302 01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:33,520 a 20% ish ish of, of trichomes that have gone amber. 1303 01:21:33,820 --> 01:21:38,520 And of course, you know, when you're, when you're a more, uh, experienced, 1304 01:21:38,970 --> 01:21:39,803 uh, cultivator, 1305 01:21:39,940 --> 01:21:44,720 you will know how to recognize swollen flowers and the color changes and, 1306 01:21:44,820 --> 01:21:49,600 you know, the change in the pistols and all these extra things. But really, um, 1307 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:54,120 the first rule of thumb that, that most novice cultivators go with is the, 1308 01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:58,680 is the 20%, um, amber trichomes, unless it's an AutoFlow, 1309 01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:02,080 which which don't really amber up the same way. Um, 1310 01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:06,680 what do you look for when deciding when to, um, 1311 01:22:07,450 --> 01:22:10,200 to harvest the seeds? Because, you know, 1312 01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:14,760 we've all gotten seeds that didn't look like they had finished maturing. And, 1313 01:22:14,810 --> 01:22:18,240 uh, you know, for for many seed varieties, we're looking for, you know, 1314 01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,800 a darkened seed potentially with, you know, striping on it, 1315 01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,720 depending on what kind of a plant it is. But, uh, 1316 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,440 but we've all bought seed packs that, 1317 01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,800 that looks like the seeds were not mature and we're like keeping our fingers 1318 01:22:29,810 --> 01:22:33,160 crossed, uh, when we, that they, that they germinate. So, 1319 01:22:33,250 --> 01:22:37,640 So what do you look for what in considerations when you're judging when to when 1320 01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:38,560 to pull the plant down? 1321 01:22:40,850 --> 01:22:42,840 Uh, so basically it, 1322 01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:47,680 I base it on time from when I know pollination occurred as well as I 1323 01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:51,080 usually dig out, uh, a couple seeds and squeeze them, 1324 01:22:51,500 --> 01:22:54,800 see how full they are, how mature they are. Uh, 1325 01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,360 of course they're sacrificing those seeds. Um, 1326 01:22:57,420 --> 01:23:02,200 but it should also be noted that a lot of seed, the color of seed and the, 1327 01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:06,520 and the striping on seed is really variety dependent. That of course, you, 1328 01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:09,440 if you have a seed that's supposed to be brown and it's tiger striped and it's, 1329 01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:12,920 it's white, then it's probably immature. Uh, but you know, 1330 01:23:13,350 --> 01:23:15,520 like the variety freak show, uh, 1331 01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:20,040 has notoriously light colored seeds that are kind of misshapen. 1332 01:23:20,570 --> 01:23:25,480 Um, but that's all they ever do, even if you let them go forever. Uh, 1333 01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:29,280 but generally, I, you want to be able to squeeze a seed and have it, you know, 1334 01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:33,160 be resistant full of an embryo. When you squeeze it, you'll see a , 1335 01:23:33,350 --> 01:23:37,040 a now dead or dying embryo pop out of it. Uh, 1336 01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:40,720 you should be able to see like the completely formed little radical and things 1337 01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:45,200 like that. Um, and it should be, it should start to be getting a hard seed coat. 1338 01:23:45,690 --> 01:23:47,200 Uh, once the, you know, 1339 01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:51,240 you do do do a few tests like that when the ma majority of seeds are like that, 1340 01:23:51,650 --> 01:23:55,960 uh, you're probably good to go. It, it doesn't hurt to let it go over. 1341 01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:59,680 I've heard people claim, you know, it's, you can get over mature seed. 1342 01:23:59,710 --> 01:24:03,800 I really don't think that's a thing. . Um, the, 1343 01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:08,480 especially if you're cleaning your seed at the end of it, you might get, uh, 1344 01:24:08,930 --> 01:24:13,400 lighter seed and things like that that will blow off, uh, 1345 01:24:13,430 --> 01:24:14,640 when you're cleaning it. 1346 01:24:15,450 --> 01:24:18,280 Um, you said that, uh, one of the, um, 1347 01:24:18,420 --> 01:24:22,480 one of the things you use to judge when to pull the seeds, you said, you know, 1348 01:24:22,480 --> 01:24:26,200 days from uh, pollination. So, um, 1349 01:24:26,870 --> 01:24:30,400 like dig into that a little bit more if you would. Uh, do you, 1350 01:24:30,460 --> 01:24:34,680 are you looking for a particular number of days or a, a, 1351 01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,000 a certain number of days in relationship to, um, 1352 01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:42,840 how long the bloom cycle is supposed to be for the, this particular female? 1353 01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:44,280 Like, give us a little more on that. 1354 01:24:45,890 --> 01:24:50,400 Usually I use the same timeframe regardless of the variety. And I haven't, 1355 01:24:50,470 --> 01:24:54,520 I haven't produced seeds on any, you know, 16 week varieties, 1356 01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,800 so I can't say it's necessarily true for that, 1357 01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:58,720 but I think that it would still apply and that there would, 1358 01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:02,040 even if you pollinate based on this timeframe, 1359 01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:04,560 there would be a mature seed sitting in there for, you know, 1360 01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,640 10 weeks or whatever. But, uh, 1361 01:25:07,630 --> 01:25:12,340 so I would say two weeks is the absolute minimum to get viable seed. 1362 01:25:13,030 --> 01:25:15,980 If you're trying to do something really fast, uh, 1363 01:25:16,850 --> 01:25:21,780 preferably you want to let it go at least four weeks and six weeks is better. 1364 01:25:22,110 --> 01:25:26,020 So if I can let something go at least six weeks and then start looking at it, 1365 01:25:26,020 --> 01:25:28,820 sometimes it'll be just completely finished, uh, 1366 01:25:28,820 --> 01:25:33,620 at four weeks and you don't really need that extra two weeks. But, um, I, 1367 01:25:33,690 --> 01:25:36,980 I don't think it hurts to let it go over unless you have something like beri 1368 01:25:36,980 --> 01:25:40,940 happening and that'll start infecting and eating your seeds. Uh, 1369 01:25:40,940 --> 01:25:43,380 there's really no harm in letting it over mature. 1370 01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:49,380 Let me push on this a little bit. So you said, um, you know, six weeks, two, 1371 01:25:49,380 --> 01:25:54,300 two is a minimum. Six would be optimum. Now, uh, if, 1372 01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:58,820 if we are going to pollinate our, our plant, 1373 01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:02,980 you know, a week or two into the flowering cycle, 1374 01:26:03,470 --> 01:26:07,600 that kind of lines up with an eight week plant, which is, you know, 1375 01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:11,840 give or take, that's, it's a, it's a pretty common, uh, bloom cycle. 1376 01:26:11,970 --> 01:26:13,600 So it could be, 1377 01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:18,520 unless you're doing a specialty plant or something that has an especially long 1378 01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,240 flowering cycle that, um, 1379 01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:25,720 you might wanna pull those seeds just simply when the flowers are done. Is, 1380 01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:28,320 is that, um, am I, is that oversimplified? 1381 01:26:30,470 --> 01:26:35,190 You're saying that you, you might be pulling them earlier than six weeks, 1382 01:26:35,190 --> 01:26:35,510 or what. 1383 01:26:35,510 --> 01:26:38,270 What do you say? No, no. I'm suggesting that if, if, if you, if you, 1384 01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:43,110 if you're plan is going to start to flower and then you pollinate it at like, 1385 01:26:43,110 --> 01:26:46,470 you know, somewhere between week one and two of the flowering process, 1386 01:26:46,530 --> 01:26:49,870 and then you said, you know, you want a minimum of two weeks for pro, 1387 01:26:49,870 --> 01:26:54,310 but more like six weeks for, to allow for this all the seeds to mature. 1388 01:26:54,460 --> 01:26:57,230 When you add those two weeks and the six weeks, you're at eight weeks, 1389 01:26:57,230 --> 01:27:01,470 which is like one of the most common bloom cycles for cannabis plants. Mm-hmm. 1390 01:27:01,510 --> 01:27:04,590 . So it's, it's sounding sounding like, uh, in, 1391 01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:07,870 in many or if not most cases, um, 1392 01:27:08,500 --> 01:27:12,990 it's not really a different time to pull the seeds as it is just when you would 1393 01:27:12,990 --> 01:27:14,110 pull the flowers normally. 1394 01:27:14,980 --> 01:27:18,190 Yeah, completely. So it's, it'd be very convenient, you know, 1395 01:27:18,190 --> 01:27:20,870 if you have like an under branch that you pollinated, 1396 01:27:20,870 --> 01:27:22,590 but you still want the flower from that plant, 1397 01:27:22,590 --> 01:27:25,670 you can usually just harvest them at the same time. 1398 01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:28,070 If I do pollinate something, 1399 01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:32,710 especially if it's later in the cycle of something that I know I'm going to cut 1400 01:27:32,710 --> 01:27:33,540 down for flour, 1401 01:27:33,540 --> 01:27:37,430 then I'll pick a lower branch and you can kind of leave that lower branch alive 1402 01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:40,030 and let the seeds mature a couple weeks longer. 1403 01:27:40,370 --> 01:27:44,190 Say you have an eight week flower, you pollinate it week four or five, 1404 01:27:44,190 --> 01:27:48,230 then you wanna let it go beyond where you would flower or harvest for flower. 1405 01:27:49,300 --> 01:27:51,710 Yeah. I, you know, the one time I did this, 1406 01:27:51,710 --> 01:27:56,150 I intentionally just let it go until, um, uh, 1407 01:27:56,830 --> 01:27:59,870 until I was good two weeks beyond the, 1408 01:28:00,380 --> 01:28:04,550 when I would've flowered it because I was so concerned about, 1409 01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:06,153 um, 1410 01:28:06,970 --> 01:28:11,830 the seeds not fully maturing and ripening and I would've gone through 1411 01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:16,710 all this, you know, effort for nothing. Um, and then so, so this, 1412 01:28:16,710 --> 01:28:20,790 this eight week plant, I was looking to harvest it at week 10, 1413 01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:22,273 um, 1414 01:28:22,290 --> 01:28:26,990 and then I was surprised it actually just started dropping the seeds on to the 1415 01:28:26,990 --> 01:28:28,470 ground. And I'm all like, Oh, 1416 01:28:28,700 --> 01:28:33,270 well I would say that that's probably like the most sure sign 1417 01:28:33,370 --> 01:28:37,150 I'm going to get, but it's possible I was misreading that sign. What, 1418 01:28:37,220 --> 01:28:42,070 what stage are we at when the plant is actually literally dropping seeds into 1419 01:28:42,070 --> 01:28:43,550 the pot or on the ground? 1420 01:28:44,130 --> 01:28:45,870 And I mean, that's, you know, 1421 01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,630 it depends what varieties you're working with that's in, 1422 01:28:51,330 --> 01:28:51,830 you know, 1423 01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:56,710 kind of atic trait where it's ancestrally wild cannabis plants will shatter and 1424 01:28:56,710 --> 01:29:00,870 drop their seeds a lot more readily than the domesticated varieties. Uh, 1425 01:29:00,870 --> 01:29:03,240 so if you have a plant like that, yeah, 1426 01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:06,720 you wanna harvest it before it drops its seed. If it's dropping at seed, 1427 01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:10,800 they're definitely ready. Uh, that, that's really the only that. 1428 01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:14,120 And say if you're outdoors and it's getting rained on, I've seen, uh, 1429 01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:17,000 seed germinating in colas before. Um, 1430 01:29:17,610 --> 01:29:22,520 so you wanna avoid those kind of negatives to letting it go too 1431 01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:27,120 long. But otherwise there's not a harm to that. And if you, you know, , 1432 01:29:27,210 --> 01:29:30,640 if you collected, had a plastic piece of plastic under the plant, 1433 01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,280 collected those seeds, they'd be fine. 1434 01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:37,800 Right on. So, so, alright, so, so, uh, we're in this situation. The, 1435 01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,160 the seeds are dropping from the plant. Um, if, if summer dropping, 1436 01:29:42,450 --> 01:29:46,960 chances are your vast majority of 'em are mature and ready to rock, um, 1437 01:29:47,330 --> 01:29:47,690 uh, 1438 01:29:47,690 --> 01:29:52,400 do you have any best practices for harvesting a seeded plant 1439 01:29:52,710 --> 01:29:57,200 that is, you know, dropping seeds because, uh, you know, certainly we wanna, 1440 01:29:57,370 --> 01:30:01,200 we want to be more gentle with this plant cause we don't wanna be dropping the 1441 01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:05,120 seeds all over, all over the room. So, um, you know, 1442 01:30:05,790 --> 01:30:09,400 I just cut it and put it in a bag like right then and there, 1443 01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:13,120 so there's as little motion as possible. Um, what do you do? 1444 01:30:13,350 --> 01:30:15,720 That's, that's exactly what I would do. Uh, 1445 01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,160 if it's a big area of seed production, 1446 01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:22,440 I'd lay down plastic before I start cutting plants down and then collect, uh, 1447 01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:26,080 the fallen seed as well. Um, but yeah, there's, 1448 01:30:26,450 --> 01:30:29,080 if it's just one plant, I'd just put the bag under it, 1449 01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:30,240 cut it right into the bag. 1450 01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:34,840 Would you walk us through the, the next steps of, um, 1451 01:30:34,870 --> 01:30:38,560 take us from where we're at now to, um, 1452 01:30:39,090 --> 01:30:42,440 to having clean seeds. So wa just walk us through, 1453 01:30:42,440 --> 01:30:45,560 I know there's a lot of different ways that people do it and we are talking 1454 01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:48,560 about somebody who is a first time breeder, so they're, 1455 01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:51,800 they're not gonna have all the sexy gear that we see, you know, 1456 01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:53,480 professional breeders have. 1457 01:30:53,850 --> 01:30:57,440 So just walk us through like the baseline of what they're gonna do. 1458 01:30:58,770 --> 01:31:03,080 So what I would do first is, uh, just drive the plant material. 1459 01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:05,720 Usually at ambient temperature you don't want to use heat. 1460 01:31:06,130 --> 01:31:10,880 If you have a dehumidifier, you wanna keep the, uh, humidity low. Um, 1461 01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:14,480 once the plant is kind of crispy, that's when I would thresh it. 1462 01:31:14,590 --> 01:31:18,480 It's a lot easier to thresh plants that are just like crunchy. Um, 1463 01:31:18,480 --> 01:31:21,880 if you're trying to save the flour from the seeded bud, that 1464 01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:25,280 generally I don't, 1465 01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:28,680 I usually just throw it away cuz it gets really beat up and isn't the best 1466 01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:30,880 quality. But you could, you could absolutely save it, 1467 01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:34,600 especially for something like cooking. Um, but regardless, 1468 01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:37,120 I would get it crispy and then you just, uh, 1469 01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:40,880 basically sh it right off the branch. Get real rough. 1470 01:31:41,230 --> 01:31:45,080 Take those flowers and grind them between your hand. Uh, 1471 01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:47,560 you don't have to be too careful at this point. 1472 01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:49,880 The seeds should be relatively resilient. 1473 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,360 If you're crushing them by grinding them in your hand, 1474 01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:55,280 then they probably were dead already . Uh, 1475 01:31:55,290 --> 01:31:58,560 so do that until it's kind of like a consistent powder seed, 1476 01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:03,360 plant mixture. And then you can start to separate that material. 1477 01:32:04,090 --> 01:32:08,880 So I, I always use, I always recommend using gloves at this point because, 1478 01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:11,520 uh, anytime I'm touching the seeds, 1479 01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:15,960 I really wanna limit my human oils onto the seeds 1480 01:32:16,340 --> 01:32:20,800 for the reasons we mentioned earlier about the vital biology that's on the 1481 01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:22,480 outside of the seeds. You know, 1482 01:32:22,480 --> 01:32:26,560 a lot of people handle their seeds like they are like in little impervious 1483 01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:31,080 suitcases, but, um, you know, I go a little more gentle than that. Um, 1484 01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:31,960 what are your thoughts? 1485 01:32:32,790 --> 01:32:37,600 I definitely touch seed without gloves during that po that 1486 01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:41,640 process. I wear gloves cuz grinding plant material in between your hands is not, 1487 01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:45,360 doesn't feel good. Uh, but I'm, you know, 1488 01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:50,120 and I've never thought about it, how the oil affects the seed coat microbiome. 1489 01:32:50,730 --> 01:32:53,480 Um, I'm sure it has some effect. I don't know what it would be. 1490 01:32:54,150 --> 01:32:56,800 Yeah, I didn't actually think about it at all until, uh, 1491 01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:00,200 last episode with Jeff Lo Fells when he was explaining the, 1492 01:33:00,500 --> 01:33:05,280 the bacteria on the inside and outside of the seed that are carried 1493 01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:10,240 with it, where the seed is going. The, the, um, the research of, uh, 1494 01:33:10,710 --> 01:33:14,800 I think the, the, the scientists name was James White, I believe it was. Anyway, 1495 01:33:14,850 --> 01:33:19,120 um, it's totally changed my relationship with, uh, with, with the, you know, 1496 01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,640 handling the seeds. Um, so, 1497 01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:26,560 so now that you've kind of like pulverized the flowers in your hands and a 1498 01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,240 bunch of seeds are like, just like raining out of it for you, hopefully, um, 1499 01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,080 you still have got all of this, um, 1500 01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:38,040 plant material mixed in with the seeds. Um, you know, 1501 01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:42,440 d you know, if, if you're just producing a little bit, just going at it on a, 1502 01:33:42,450 --> 01:33:46,560 on a, on a flat service with a a credit card might be tedious, 1503 01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:49,640 but it would work. Uh, is there, um, 1504 01:33:49,650 --> 01:33:54,640 is there a nice best practice you like for removing the plant material from 1505 01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:55,473 the seeds. 1506 01:33:55,500 --> 01:34:00,080 For home scale? I do one of a couple things. Uh, 1507 01:34:00,190 --> 01:34:05,120 I will grind the plant material through a screen sometimes 1508 01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,040 to get it really fine. Uh, when, okay, so when you tsh the plant, 1509 01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:11,480 you have just this pile of, of whole plant material, 1510 01:34:11,480 --> 01:34:16,120 you can kind of shake it in a tub and the seed will, uh, sink to the bottom. 1511 01:34:16,540 --> 01:34:21,320 And at that point you might want to just pick the plant material off the top, 1512 01:34:21,730 --> 01:34:25,920 uh, and get rid of some of the bigger stuff. But then I'll grind it through, uh, 1513 01:34:25,920 --> 01:34:30,080 like a spaghetti strainer screen, uh, 1514 01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,400 and make all that plant material more fine. 1515 01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:37,160 And usually the seed sits on top of that screen. So that's like the first, uh, 1516 01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:40,960 sift of plant material. I throw away everything that ground through the screen. 1517 01:34:41,530 --> 01:34:42,110 Um, 1518 01:34:42,110 --> 01:34:47,040 then I pour that seed into like a dishwashing tub and I 1519 01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:50,320 kind of shake it around. And I've seen people do this a few different ways. 1520 01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:53,520 And you can also buy or build machines that use, uh, 1521 01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:56,440 vacuum cleaners to air clean that are more precise, 1522 01:34:56,440 --> 01:35:00,360 but just for the home grower, uh, just a dishwasher tub, 1523 01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:02,680 shake it around, move it to one corner, 1524 01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:07,360 and then I blow into the tub kind of in the direction of the 1525 01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:11,600 seeds. And all the light seed and plant material will fly away. Uh, 1526 01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:14,560 you have to be a little bit careful. You're gonna lose some good seed. 1527 01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:19,000 Pretty much any air cleaner is gonna remove a little bit of good seed. Uh, 1528 01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:21,280 but the idea is that you're removing, you know, 1529 01:35:21,790 --> 01:35:25,240 95% of the trash, uh, 1530 01:35:25,240 --> 01:35:27,400 and you're leaving yourself with viable seed. 1531 01:35:27,490 --> 01:35:29,920 So now we're sorting seeds. Um, 1532 01:35:30,550 --> 01:35:34,360 what are you looking for for seeds that you are gonna reject. 1533 01:35:34,470 --> 01:35:38,760 Once you have like a, and it depends on what size lot you're doing and what, 1534 01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:41,640 what are you saving? Are you just saving them for breeding, then I might, 1535 01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:45,800 you know, have a lower standard for defects and things like that. Uh, 1536 01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:49,440 but if you're gonna give it to people, I'd clean them more, uh, precisely. 1537 01:35:49,780 --> 01:35:51,120 But generally you can, 1538 01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:55,400 light colored seed is usually pretty obvious and if you pick up a seed, 1539 01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:58,640 it just crunches in your hand. It wasn't filled with anything, 1540 01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:00,640 you just toss those away. Um, 1541 01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:04,400 sometimes those will survive air cleaning and they'll still be in the batch, 1542 01:36:04,430 --> 01:36:08,000 especially if they still have, uh, plant material attached to them. 1543 01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:12,520 They might be, have been a little heavier and survive that. Uh, you know, 1544 01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:17,120 if you know your seed variety well, you'll get a look at what a, a good, 1545 01:36:17,150 --> 01:36:19,120 mature, healthy seed looks like, 1546 01:36:19,300 --> 01:36:23,360 and you'll be able to kind of calibrate and look for the ones that don't look 1547 01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:24,130 correct. 1548 01:36:24,130 --> 01:36:27,360 So if you have a seed variety that usually has tiger stripes and you have one 1549 01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,440 that's light and tan, uh, you know, I would to that. Um, 1550 01:36:31,940 --> 01:36:36,720 but it's surprising though because some, some seed especially, uh, you know, 1551 01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:37,490 if you do so, 1552 01:36:37,490 --> 01:36:41,120 or say you're trying to do a quick breeding cycle and you only let it go two 1553 01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:46,120 weeks, uh, the seed might look green still and look immature, 1554 01:36:46,620 --> 01:36:49,840 but it'll still have 70% germination, 1555 01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:52,600 which could be enough if all you're doing is breeding with it. Mm. 1556 01:36:53,150 --> 01:36:57,240 I haven't seen any of those seeds yet. That's a, that's a strange thing. Yeah. 1557 01:36:57,640 --> 01:37:00,200 Probably because they're not released that way. Right? They're just, 1558 01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:01,440 they're part of a breeding program. 1559 01:37:02,150 --> 01:37:03,680 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 1560 01:37:03,970 --> 01:37:08,080 Um, you know, I, you know, I don't really know when, 1561 01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:10,920 when people talk about curing their seeds, um, 1562 01:37:10,990 --> 01:37:15,480 I don't usually know what they mean. But we do know that a, 1563 01:37:15,790 --> 01:37:19,440 a fresh seed taken right off the plant, um, 1564 01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:25,280 given a little bit of time to dry will then germinate 1565 01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:26,200 better in a, 1566 01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:30,200 in a couple weeks than it does on the day that you take it from the plant. Um, 1567 01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:32,320 but I actually don't know a whole lot about that. 1568 01:37:32,320 --> 01:37:37,040 Would you speak to this idea of curing seeds and letting 'em dry and to, 1569 01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:41,720 into increased germination rates, um, so that when you go to them, they're, 1570 01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:43,560 they're actually ready to do their job? Yeah. 1571 01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:45,600 So I think it's two things. One is, 1572 01:37:45,650 --> 01:37:49,960 is drying it down to a moisture lever level where it will be 1573 01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:53,440 shelf stable, uh, for a certain amount of time. 1574 01:37:53,660 --> 01:37:58,480 And that's down to 5%. Moisture is, uh, preferred. 1575 01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:03,800 Anything under 10 and in cold treatment is also going to stay 1576 01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,880 alive for years. Um, there's also another aspect to, you know, 1577 01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:11,400 curing or aging your seed a little bit. And it's probably, uh, 1578 01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:13,000 post harvest maturation, 1579 01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:17,760 just physiologically that embryo is still doing things 1580 01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:22,240 after the harvest. Um, and it's not quite ready to, uh, 1581 01:38:22,480 --> 01:38:25,160 germinate yet. Uh, if you plant, you know, 1582 01:38:25,190 --> 01:38:27,920 a week after cleaning seed or something like that, 1583 01:38:28,060 --> 01:38:32,160 you might get 50% germination. If you wait two to three weeks, 1584 01:38:32,160 --> 01:38:34,360 that'll go up to 90. Uh, 1585 01:38:34,370 --> 01:38:38,640 so there's something happening and I think it's beyond just cuz the moisture 1586 01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:41,480 content probably won't change that long in that amount of time. 1587 01:38:41,570 --> 01:38:46,360 So my guess is that's mostly, uh, some physiological process within the seed. 1588 01:38:46,430 --> 01:38:47,080 Mm-hmm. 1589 01:38:47,080 --> 01:38:50,280 . And, uh, let's finish up with storing. 1590 01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:54,440 So now you've put in all this effort and you've got your first run of seeds and 1591 01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:57,280 you're so fricking stoked and you're gonna, 1592 01:38:57,280 --> 01:39:01,160 you're gonna share 'em with your friends and you can't wait to grow it and smoke 1593 01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:05,040 it. Um, but you got some other stuff you gotta do first. And so, um, 1594 01:39:05,090 --> 01:39:07,880 so you're gonna need to store it for a while. Um, 1595 01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,680 what are your best practices for, um, for storing seed? 1596 01:39:11,710 --> 01:39:15,400 Before I get to that, there's just one more thing on the, uh, put, 1597 01:39:15,430 --> 01:39:19,400 I forgot to mention. I have heard some people talk about, uh, you know, 1598 01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:23,400 some seeds need to of other species need to, what's called alize, 1599 01:39:23,440 --> 01:39:26,800 where they go through a cold period in the winter before they're able to 1600 01:39:26,920 --> 01:39:29,000 germinate. I have heard some people report, 1601 01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:32,560 and I don't have a specific experience with this, um, 1602 01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:37,400 but they say that they get better germination if they put their seed in, 1603 01:39:37,820 --> 01:39:41,960 not just wait the, those two or three weeks before trying to plant it, 1604 01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:46,240 but they put it in a refrigerator or a freezer for that period of time. Um, 1605 01:39:47,060 --> 01:39:51,240 I'm not sure if they've compared that just to waiting and I'm kind of curious to 1606 01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,440 try that, uh, sometime. But usually when we're waiting, 1607 01:39:54,500 --> 01:39:56,480 the seed is in a cold fault. 1608 01:39:56,930 --> 01:40:01,680 So basically all our seed is getting that treatment anyway. Um, but yeah, 1609 01:40:01,890 --> 01:40:04,440 so when your seed is, 1610 01:40:04,590 --> 01:40:09,480 when your seed is dried down to a good percentage, which should be under 10%, 1611 01:40:09,930 --> 01:40:14,480 uh, preferably under eight or so, uh, percent moisture, um, 1612 01:40:15,220 --> 01:40:19,720 you can put it in, uh, either a freezer or a refrigerator. 1613 01:40:20,190 --> 01:40:22,680 I usually keep my stuff in a refrigerator, 1614 01:40:23,130 --> 01:40:26,640 freezer should be okay as long as the moisture level is low. 1615 01:40:26,640 --> 01:40:30,160 And that's probably best for long term, uh, storage. 1616 01:40:30,660 --> 01:40:35,440 The problem with either a refrigerator or a freezer usually arises 1617 01:40:35,440 --> 01:40:37,560 from when you're taking the seed in and out. 1618 01:40:38,090 --> 01:40:42,640 So you want to have it in an airtight container, maybe with a little desicant, 1619 01:40:43,370 --> 01:40:47,540 um, and put it in the freezer refrigerator. 1620 01:40:47,890 --> 01:40:51,820 When you take the seed out to access that, uh, session, 1621 01:40:52,140 --> 01:40:54,880 whenever you're ready to grow it, it, you wanna let it, um, 1622 01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:58,400 acclimate to whatever the room temperature is before you open it. 1623 01:40:58,460 --> 01:40:59,680 Cuz like if you take that, 1624 01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:02,440 say you have it in a little plastic container and you take that out of the 1625 01:41:02,440 --> 01:41:06,000 freezer, it's gonna be instantly covered with, with moisture. Um, 1626 01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:08,040 and if you open that before the seed reaches, 1627 01:41:08,510 --> 01:41:12,040 before it all equalizes in temperature, the same thing will happen to the seed. 1628 01:41:12,420 --> 01:41:17,120 And that's what will limit the viability over time. More than, uh, 1629 01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:21,040 more than temperature, more than, um, the air exposure. 1630 01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:23,480 It's gonna be moisture that is a danger to seed. 1631 01:41:23,530 --> 01:41:24,800 Uh, so we've now, 1632 01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:28,480 we've got them cured and we've got them stored and we know that we wanna bring 1633 01:41:28,480 --> 01:41:32,520 it back to temperature, um, before we open the the container. 1634 01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:35,200 Especially if we're only gonna take out some of the seeds. 1635 01:41:35,290 --> 01:41:39,040 We don't wanna reclose the container with all that condensation that it suddenly 1636 01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:43,160 pulled outta the air. Um, because you, you'd risk either mold or heck, 1637 01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:46,480 maybe even potentially, uh, accidental germination, eh. 1638 01:41:47,510 --> 01:41:50,800 Yeah, if you're taking out a little pack and you're gonna plant all the seed, 1639 01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:52,680 then you, you know, you don't have to wait. 1640 01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:56,560 But if it's like a stored seed that you're taking a little qua out of, 1641 01:41:56,620 --> 01:41:59,760 you don't want to damage the seed that goes back into storage. 1642 01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:03,720 Qua, there's my word for the day, . I haven't heard that in a long time. 1643 01:42:04,210 --> 01:42:08,600 Um, alright, great. So, um, so before, before we wrap up and I let you go, 1644 01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:12,200 Brandon, is there, is there anything else that, um, you know, 1645 01:42:12,910 --> 01:42:16,720 you've done this process so many times and, and now you're doing it, uh, 1646 01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:17,960 professionally. Is there, 1647 01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:20,560 is there anything else looking back on this show where you're all like, 1648 01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:24,600 you're like, actually there's one more thing that the, um, 1649 01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:28,360 that the new breeder, uh, is gonna wanna know. Is there, 1650 01:42:28,360 --> 01:42:32,680 is there anything that jumps out into your brain right away that, uh, 1651 01:42:32,680 --> 01:42:37,040 that we may not have covered that we wanna go back and, and punctuate before, 1652 01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:38,080 before we wrap up? 1653 01:42:39,480 --> 01:42:40,960 There might be a couple points. 1654 01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:43,760 If someone were to ask me advice as a new grower, 1655 01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:48,600 the first thing I would say is know your germ plasm that you're working with 1656 01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:53,080 and what is available before you start designing your program. Uh, 1657 01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:55,960 don't just cross things cuz you like the name or whatever, 1658 01:42:56,220 --> 01:43:01,040 and also expect things to react differently than you think they're going to when 1659 01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:02,920 you cross them. Um. 1660 01:43:03,390 --> 01:43:06,240 When you say know your germplasm, break that out a little bit. 1661 01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:09,480 What exactly do you mean? Like, know, 1662 01:43:09,480 --> 01:43:13,320 know the two lines that you're working with and have grown them and things like 1663 01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:14,153 that. 1664 01:43:14,550 --> 01:43:15,280 I, yes, 1665 01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:19,360 I would say have grown them and have some ex at least have seen the flower 1666 01:43:19,360 --> 01:43:22,680 people in cannabis especially, will attach to names and have these, 1667 01:43:22,950 --> 01:43:26,520 I was guilty of this where you, you get these idea, 1668 01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:30,080 you fantasize about a plant, uh, based on its description or something, 1669 01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:31,800 and then it's not what it is when you get it. 1670 01:43:31,970 --> 01:43:36,160 Or you have the plant and you fantasize about a cross because oh, these will, 1671 01:43:36,870 --> 01:43:39,400 this plant and this plant would make a really good intermediate, 1672 01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:42,160 but then you cross them and the intermediate doesn't exist, 1673 01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:46,560 that's totally different. Um, so you need to be flexible and just, uh, 1674 01:43:46,670 --> 01:43:50,400 work with what you have not, you know, the fantasy of what you have . 1675 01:43:50,710 --> 01:43:54,040 Yeah, I actually have been running into a problem with that myself. 1676 01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:58,880 I have this fantasy of crossing, um, sour diesel, the jet fuel og, um, 1677 01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,880 because I like both of those very much. Um, but, you know, 1678 01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:07,080 having grown sour diesel a couple times, it is, uh, so, 1679 01:44:07,890 --> 01:44:11,560 um, likely to both, um, uh, 1680 01:44:11,560 --> 01:44:16,360 throw mail flowers and express itself with intersex 1681 01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:21,240 flowers. Um, that I just, I'm just not willing to, you know, 1682 01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:25,160 breed with it and cause all these potential problems down the line. 1683 01:44:25,420 --> 01:44:27,960 And I didn't realize that until I, you know, 1684 01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:32,360 started growing the sour diesel that we have today and 1685 01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:36,200 realizing that, that most of the folks who are, you know, 1686 01:44:36,250 --> 01:44:40,640 working with sour diesel are expecting male flowers and 1687 01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:43,680 intersex flowers. And, and I'm like, well, 1688 01:44:44,190 --> 01:44:47,760 I guess I probably won't go down that path because I, 1689 01:44:47,870 --> 01:44:50,400 I did my research on the germplasm. Yes. 1690 01:44:50,630 --> 01:44:51,880 It's also surprising, 1691 01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:55,680 I have some things that are prone to intersex that when you cross them, 1692 01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:58,040 none of the plants in the cross will be intersex. 1693 01:44:58,080 --> 01:45:01,240 Maybe if I took it another generation, it would start causing problems. 1694 01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:04,320 But if you're just so, I, I don't wanna discourage people either. 1695 01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:07,600 If you're just trying to make an F one, you know, and one of them is intersect, 1696 01:45:07,970 --> 01:45:12,760 it might solve the problem. And alternatively, I've had plants that were, 1697 01:45:12,940 --> 01:45:15,520 you know, never produced a Mayo flower. I crossed them, 1698 01:45:15,860 --> 01:45:20,040 all of the seeds are intersex. Mm. Uh and neither of the parents, 1699 01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:22,640 seemingly, one of the parents was deep chunk, which I, 1700 01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:24,960 I'm not aware of intersex problems with deep chunk. 1701 01:45:25,140 --> 01:45:27,360 And the other was a clone Les Bardo. 1702 01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:30,840 So I don't know the background of Les Bardo, but the clone itself, you know, 1703 01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:33,400 never had had a problem. But every, 1704 01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:37,120 almost every single seed is just almost 50 50. 1705 01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:42,520 Right on. Um, right on. So do you have anything else to add before we, 1706 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:43,480 before we wrap up? 1707 01:45:44,450 --> 01:45:47,960 Um, lastly, the, the, the last like, uh, 1708 01:45:48,030 --> 01:45:52,640 kind of point that I try to impose on newer growers is, 1709 01:45:52,730 --> 01:45:53,640 uh, you know, 1710 01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:58,960 consider working with higher populations even if you have a small, uh, space. 1711 01:45:59,650 --> 01:46:04,360 So this might be breaking plant count numbers for 1712 01:46:04,470 --> 01:46:07,600 a lot of people. And this is why I would prefer say, uh, 1713 01:46:07,970 --> 01:46:09,800 if you're going to regulate gardens, 1714 01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:13,000 do it on space rather than plant counts because I can, 1715 01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:17,910 you can fit a hundred plants or more in a two by four 1716 01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:22,390 if you have them stunted in little, uh, trays, something like that. 1717 01:46:22,610 --> 01:46:24,350 And if you're not selecting, 1718 01:46:24,420 --> 01:46:29,150 especially when you're making cross initial crosses and you're introducing genes 1719 01:46:29,150 --> 01:46:31,710 where you're just selecting for one major gene, 1720 01:46:31,710 --> 01:46:34,750 but you want to keep the gene pool, uh, broad. 1721 01:46:34,750 --> 01:46:38,870 Like if I'm doing a photo auto cross and I'm not trying to select specific 1722 01:46:38,870 --> 01:46:39,790 phenotypes yet, 1723 01:46:40,020 --> 01:46:44,710 I'll do those original generations as populations in 1724 01:46:44,710 --> 01:46:49,070 small tents. So you, you're still hitting large selection numbers and I still, 1725 01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:49,913 still will make, 1726 01:46:49,950 --> 01:46:53,520 especially selections against plants that get diseased and things like that, 1727 01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:54,880 but you're in a very small. 1728 01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:55,120 Space, 1729 01:46:55,120 --> 01:46:58,840 that's probably not something that's gonna happen with the first time BRI year. 1730 01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:02,080 But that sounds like it might be a really good set too, 1731 01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,720 because as soon as you do this once and you have success, 1732 01:47:04,910 --> 01:47:09,240 you're suddenly gonna wanna do way bigger sifts. So you have more options, 1733 01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:11,640 I'm guessing. Mm-hmm. . Uh, well, cool. Well, Brandon, 1734 01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:15,680 thank you so much for, uh, coming on shaping fire and sharing your experience. 1735 01:47:15,990 --> 01:47:17,960 I appreciated a great deal. 1736 01:47:18,150 --> 01:47:20,880 I really appreciate the invitation. Thank you for having me. 1737 01:47:20,930 --> 01:47:24,440 So if you want to follow along, uh, with Brandon, uh, 1738 01:47:24,440 --> 01:47:27,880 there are three different places that you can, um, uh, 1739 01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:30,960 you can be in contact with him if you wish. Uh, the first, 1740 01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:35,880 I definitely recommend following his personal Instagram at Growing 1741 01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:40,240 Higher. Um, he, first of all, there's a lot of great plant photos, 1742 01:47:40,610 --> 01:47:44,000 um, but the commentary that Brandon offers on, 1743 01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:48,400 on this or that project that he's working on, um, is engaging in educational. 1744 01:47:48,410 --> 01:47:52,480 So that's a good thing. Um, second, I'm a big fan of, uh, 1745 01:47:52,480 --> 01:47:54,840 the company that Brandon has started, uh, 1746 01:47:54,840 --> 01:47:59,560 with a couple of his friends Mic Fight Solutions, uh, which, uh, 1747 01:48:00,010 --> 01:48:03,480 focuses on, uh, uh, crop advising, um, 1748 01:48:03,510 --> 01:48:08,320 with a regenerative and, um, ology mindset for, 1749 01:48:08,320 --> 01:48:10,680 uh, uh, for agriculture. And, 1750 01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:15,040 and their Instagram is at MiFi Solutions. 1751 01:48:15,500 --> 01:48:18,520 And, uh, if Mic Fight is a, is new vocabulary for you, 1752 01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:22,440 that's M Y C O P H Y T E, 1753 01:48:22,750 --> 01:48:27,200 MiFi Mic Fight Solutions. And then, uh, 1754 01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:31,880 and then you can find out more about their actual consulting services and what 1755 01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:34,320 they can offer@mifi.com. 1756 01:48:34,940 --> 01:48:38,520 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire podcast and subscribe to the 1757 01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,840 show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts. 1758 01:48:42,050 --> 01:48:43,080 If you enjoyed the show, 1759 01:48:43,080 --> 01:48:45,720 we'd really appreciate it if you would leave a positive review of the podcast. 1760 01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:50,280 Wherever you download your review will help others find the show so they can 1761 01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:52,560 enjoy it too. On the Shaping Fire website, 1762 01:48:52,560 --> 01:48:56,240 you can also subscribe to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis 1763 01:48:56,240 --> 01:49:00,440 news exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. 1764 01:49:00,440 --> 01:49:03,160 You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. 1765 01:49:03,490 --> 01:49:04,960 Be sure to follow on Instagram. 1766 01:49:04,960 --> 01:49:07,280 For all original content not found on the podcast, 1767 01:49:07,610 --> 01:49:11,600 that'ss at Shaping Fire and at shingle lo on Instagram, 1768 01:49:11,890 --> 01:49:15,440 be sure to check out the Shaping Fire YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, 1769 01:49:15,440 --> 01:49:17,120 farm tours, and cannabis lectures. 1770 01:49:17,470 --> 01:49:21,160 Does your company wanna reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? 1771 01:49:21,440 --> 01:49:24,720 Email hotspot shaping fire.com to find out how. 1772 01:49:24,870 --> 01:49:28,840 Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shangle Lo.