1
00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:09,759
You and I have spent so much time

2
00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:11,859
and effort defending cannabis

3
00:00:12,335 --> 00:00:13,634
from pretty much everybody.

4
00:00:14,255 --> 00:00:16,335
First, we had to explain to people cannabis

5
00:00:16,335 --> 00:00:19,214
was medicine and not an addictive drug. And

6
00:00:19,214 --> 00:00:21,614
then we had to illustrate that stoners were

7
00:00:21,614 --> 00:00:23,554
not necessarily lazy or unmotivated.

8
00:00:24,015 --> 00:00:25,795
We have vision and take action.

9
00:00:26,179 --> 00:00:28,339
We had to prove to our politicians that

10
00:00:28,339 --> 00:00:30,739
it somehow would benefit them just to even

11
00:00:30,739 --> 00:00:33,460
get it normalized. And now with all the

12
00:00:33,460 --> 00:00:35,479
state laws favoring indoor cultivation,

13
00:00:36,020 --> 00:00:38,520
we have to consider the very real issue

14
00:00:38,795 --> 00:00:40,655
that cannabis cultivated indoors

15
00:00:40,954 --> 00:00:42,414
might be bad for our environment,

16
00:00:42,875 --> 00:00:44,255
electrical grid stability,

17
00:00:44,635 --> 00:00:47,914
the cannabis economy, and the cannabis community as

18
00:00:47,914 --> 00:00:48,414
well.

19
00:00:48,954 --> 00:00:49,454
Ouch.

20
00:00:49,835 --> 00:00:52,015
That's just not something I wanna think about.

21
00:00:52,850 --> 00:00:54,929
If you're listening to this episode, you are

22
00:00:54,929 --> 00:00:57,250
already a good person in my book. I

23
00:00:57,250 --> 00:00:59,969
imagine lots of folks might skip this shaping

24
00:00:59,969 --> 00:01:00,870
fire episode

25
00:01:01,250 --> 00:01:03,810
simply because they don't wanna think about how

26
00:01:03,810 --> 00:01:05,829
much energy cannabis consumes.

27
00:01:06,825 --> 00:01:07,805
But being a cannabis

28
00:01:08,344 --> 00:01:10,284
enthusiast means looking at everything

29
00:01:10,744 --> 00:01:12,924
to do with our favorite plant.

30
00:01:13,465 --> 00:01:16,284
And having the backbone to know when decreasing

31
00:01:16,504 --> 00:01:17,884
our carbon footprint,

32
00:01:18,424 --> 00:01:18,924
emissions

33
00:01:19,224 --> 00:01:22,790
and fertilizer runoff is a very important consideration.

34
00:01:23,810 --> 00:01:26,369
Yes, we will mostly be talking about indoor

35
00:01:26,369 --> 00:01:29,590
cultivated cannabis today, but outdoor and greenhouses

36
00:01:29,969 --> 00:01:32,629
have some energy aspects to consider too.

37
00:01:33,424 --> 00:01:35,125
Whether you are an environmentalist,

38
00:01:35,825 --> 00:01:37,045
an outdoor cultivator,

39
00:01:37,344 --> 00:01:40,564
an indoor cultivator looking to decrease your bills,

40
00:01:40,784 --> 00:01:42,704
or looking to make a case to start

41
00:01:42,704 --> 00:01:43,524
growing outdoors,

42
00:01:44,064 --> 00:01:45,685
this episode is for you.

43
00:01:46,650 --> 00:01:49,150
If you wanna learn about cannabis health, cultivation,

44
00:01:49,209 --> 00:01:51,770
and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I

45
00:01:51,770 --> 00:01:53,790
encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter.

46
00:01:54,170 --> 00:01:56,650
We'll send you new podcast episodes as they

47
00:01:56,650 --> 00:01:59,045
come out delivered right to your inbox along

48
00:01:59,045 --> 00:02:00,805
with commentary on a couple of the most

49
00:02:00,805 --> 00:02:03,224
important news items from the week and videos

50
00:02:03,284 --> 00:02:03,784
too.

51
00:02:04,084 --> 00:02:05,924
Don't rely on social media to let you

52
00:02:05,924 --> 00:02:07,704
know when a new episode is published.

53
00:02:08,004 --> 00:02:09,444
Sign up for the updates to make sure

54
00:02:09,444 --> 00:02:10,664
you don't miss an episode.

55
00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:13,539
Also, we're giving away very cool prizes to

56
00:02:13,539 --> 00:02:14,979
folks who are signed up to receive the

57
00:02:14,979 --> 00:02:15,479
newsletter.

58
00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:17,459
So go to shapingfire.com

59
00:02:17,459 --> 00:02:19,139
to sign up for the newsletter and be

60
00:02:19,139 --> 00:02:21,639
entered into this month's and all future newsletter

61
00:02:21,699 --> 00:02:22,599
prize drawings.

62
00:02:23,314 --> 00:02:24,674
If you like what we do and wanna

63
00:02:24,674 --> 00:02:26,435
put something in the tip jar, you can

64
00:02:26,435 --> 00:02:26,935
Venmo

65
00:02:27,235 --> 00:02:28,455
at Shango Los.

66
00:02:29,875 --> 00:02:31,875
You are listening to Shaping Fire and I

67
00:02:31,875 --> 00:02:33,735
am your host Shango Los.

68
00:02:34,194 --> 00:02:36,534
Welcome to episode 120.

69
00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:39,270
My guest today is doctor Evan Mills.

70
00:02:40,050 --> 00:02:41,590
Evan has an exceptionally

71
00:02:41,969 --> 00:02:44,530
prestigious resume and you can read it fully

72
00:02:44,530 --> 00:02:46,870
on his website. Here are some highlights.

73
00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:51,194
Doctor Evan Mills is a retired senior scientist

74
00:02:51,194 --> 00:02:53,375
at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory,

75
00:02:53,915 --> 00:02:56,314
one of the world's leading research centers on

76
00:02:56,314 --> 00:02:57,375
energy and environment.

77
00:02:57,915 --> 00:02:59,455
He continues his collaborations

78
00:02:59,754 --> 00:03:02,235
with the lab as an affiliate and is

79
00:03:02,235 --> 00:03:05,150
also a research affiliate with the Energy and

80
00:03:05,150 --> 00:03:07,090
Resources Group at UC Berkeley.

81
00:03:08,110 --> 00:03:10,750
He consults widely for private industry and the

82
00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:14,269
public sector. He has published 372

83
00:03:14,269 --> 00:03:18,110
articles and reports, including contributions to 17 books

84
00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:20,314
and has spoken in 21 countries.

85
00:03:21,175 --> 00:03:22,715
In 02/2007,

86
00:03:22,855 --> 00:03:25,495
Evan shared a Nobel Peace Prize as a

87
00:03:25,495 --> 00:03:27,514
member of the United Nations Intergovernmental

88
00:03:27,895 --> 00:03:29,435
Panel on Climate Change.

89
00:03:30,294 --> 00:03:32,555
Evan has worked as an energy and environmental

90
00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,879
systems analyst on projects ranging from local to

91
00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:36,860
global scales.

92
00:03:37,239 --> 00:03:39,799
In the mid nineteen eighties, he studied and

93
00:03:39,799 --> 00:03:42,280
taught about green buildings before the term was

94
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,164
in vogue. He received a master's of science

95
00:03:45,164 --> 00:03:46,844
degree in 1987

96
00:03:46,844 --> 00:03:50,044
from UC Berkeley's Energy and Resources Group and

97
00:03:50,044 --> 00:03:51,965
a PhD in 1991

98
00:03:51,965 --> 00:03:55,025
from the Department Environmental and Energy Systems Studies

99
00:03:55,245 --> 00:03:57,025
at Lund University in Sweden.

100
00:03:57,579 --> 00:03:59,739
While in Sweden, he worked closely with the

101
00:03:59,739 --> 00:04:02,699
Swedish State Power Board and the Swedish National

102
00:04:02,699 --> 00:04:05,739
Board for Industrial and Technical Development on national

103
00:04:05,739 --> 00:04:07,120
energy planning projects.

104
00:04:08,060 --> 00:04:08,799
His specialties

105
00:04:09,099 --> 00:04:11,759
are energy efficiency in buildings and industry

106
00:04:12,094 --> 00:04:14,354
and the intersection of energy technology,

107
00:04:14,895 --> 00:04:16,675
global climate and risk management.

108
00:04:18,014 --> 00:04:21,394
Evan frequently writes for popular and trade publications

109
00:04:21,535 --> 00:04:25,875
including Forbes, The LA Times, Slate, Salon, Technology

110
00:04:25,935 --> 00:04:27,634
Review and The Washington Post.

111
00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:30,199
And his work has been covered pretty much

112
00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:34,120
everywhere including the Atlantic, Bloomberg, The Economist, The

113
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,120
Financial Times, High Times, National Geographic, Nature, Popular

114
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,180
Science, Rolling Stone, Scientific American, and Wired.

115
00:04:42,004 --> 00:04:44,245
Evan now lives in the Redwoods on the

116
00:04:44,245 --> 00:04:47,305
Northern California Coast and is an organic vegetable

117
00:04:47,365 --> 00:04:47,865
gardener.

118
00:04:48,324 --> 00:04:50,805
And as a novel side note, when Evan

119
00:04:50,805 --> 00:04:52,884
was a kid, he attended the Halloween parties

120
00:04:52,884 --> 00:04:54,645
that Cheech and Chong threw for their kids

121
00:04:54,645 --> 00:04:56,504
in nineteen seventies Los Angeles.

122
00:04:57,509 --> 00:04:59,589
Today, we will be discussing the ways that

123
00:04:59,589 --> 00:05:00,569
cannabis cultivation

124
00:05:00,949 --> 00:05:03,750
uses energy and the places you can save

125
00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:06,970
money by changing to energy efficient alternatives.

126
00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:09,750
During the first set, we will talk about

127
00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:12,425
the overall size of the energy footprint of

128
00:05:12,425 --> 00:05:13,564
US Cannabis cultivation

129
00:05:14,104 --> 00:05:17,224
and then dive into lights, HVAC and other

130
00:05:17,224 --> 00:05:18,845
big ticket energy users.

131
00:05:19,544 --> 00:05:21,964
During the second set, we dig into drying,

132
00:05:22,185 --> 00:05:22,685
transportation,

133
00:05:23,305 --> 00:05:25,704
packaging and retail along with a bunch of

134
00:05:25,704 --> 00:05:28,680
other sleeper ways that we waste energy cultivating.

135
00:05:29,379 --> 00:05:31,879
And we finished the episode looking at cannabis

136
00:05:31,939 --> 00:05:34,360
delivery and energy efficient cultivars

137
00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:37,779
along with the market and political bias in

138
00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:41,064
favor of indoor cultivation and the possible impacts

139
00:05:41,125 --> 00:05:43,704
that interstate commerce and national legalization

140
00:05:44,004 --> 00:05:46,185
might have on cannabis energy use.

141
00:05:46,644 --> 00:05:48,345
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Evan.

142
00:05:48,884 --> 00:05:50,985
Hey. Good to be here. Thank you. Awesome.

143
00:05:51,204 --> 00:05:53,990
So Evan, like, let's let's let's repeat what

144
00:05:53,990 --> 00:05:56,550
I've already said in the introduction once since

145
00:05:56,550 --> 00:05:58,389
you work have worked for with so many

146
00:05:58,389 --> 00:05:58,889
heavies

147
00:05:59,270 --> 00:06:00,949
that that you are here on your own

148
00:06:00,949 --> 00:06:01,449
capacity

149
00:06:01,910 --> 00:06:02,889
as a consultant

150
00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:03,910
and that,

151
00:06:04,389 --> 00:06:06,710
this work and your opinions today do not

152
00:06:06,710 --> 00:06:07,154
necessarily

153
00:06:08,115 --> 00:06:10,595
necessarily reflect those of the companies or institutions

154
00:06:10,595 --> 00:06:11,794
with which you have worked for, and you

155
00:06:11,794 --> 00:06:12,774
are here talking just for

156
00:06:13,154 --> 00:06:13,654
yourself.

157
00:06:14,514 --> 00:06:16,675
Yeah. That's fine. Thank you. Excellent. So, you

158
00:06:16,675 --> 00:06:18,595
know, it's fun to be chatting with you.

159
00:06:19,074 --> 00:06:20,754
Your your name has been on my lips

160
00:06:20,754 --> 00:06:22,920
for for, like, almost a decade. Right?

161
00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,120
Doctor Dominic Korova turned me on to your

162
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,699
work in, like, 2014 or '15 or so.

163
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,340
And, I've been repeating it and watching it,

164
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,040
and and watching for more ever since. So

165
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:35,879
then last week when I saw your paper

166
00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:37,375
come out, it was like it was like

167
00:06:37,375 --> 00:06:39,375
a long missed returning friend, Evan, even though

168
00:06:39,375 --> 00:06:41,935
I don't know you. And so, it was

169
00:06:41,935 --> 00:06:44,334
nice to, connect with you via email, and,

170
00:06:44,654 --> 00:06:46,814
I really appreciate you being here today. So

171
00:06:46,814 --> 00:06:49,375
thank you. Oh, my pleasure. Dominic put together

172
00:06:49,375 --> 00:06:51,660
a great book a couple years ago with,

173
00:06:51,660 --> 00:06:54,220
you know, 30 or so chapters from different

174
00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:57,259
experts all around the cannabis industry, all kinds

175
00:06:57,259 --> 00:06:59,360
of issues. And we had the pleasure of

176
00:06:59,580 --> 00:07:02,060
contributing a chapter to that as well. And

177
00:07:02,060 --> 00:07:03,595
I I have read it. It it was

178
00:07:03,595 --> 00:07:04,714
excellent. And and then when when when,

179
00:07:05,675 --> 00:07:07,514
when Dominic put it out, he was actually

180
00:07:07,514 --> 00:07:09,514
on shaping fur, and we talked about that

181
00:07:09,514 --> 00:07:10,954
at the time. And I bet you your

182
00:07:10,954 --> 00:07:13,134
name came up during that episode as well.

183
00:07:13,514 --> 00:07:13,754
So,

184
00:07:14,394 --> 00:07:16,555
so but we are here today because you

185
00:07:16,555 --> 00:07:18,975
have recently updated your work.

186
00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:21,479
You have a newly published paper in One

187
00:07:21,479 --> 00:07:25,479
Earth called energy intensive indoor cultivation drives cannabis

188
00:07:25,479 --> 00:07:27,659
industry's expanding carbon footprint,

189
00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:28,699
which

190
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,060
pretty much,

191
00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:32,699
like the sauce is in the title. Right?

192
00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:35,324
We know exactly where we're coming from. And

193
00:07:35,324 --> 00:07:37,504
so today, I was I wanted

194
00:07:37,884 --> 00:07:39,324
to invite you on the show so that

195
00:07:39,324 --> 00:07:40,704
we can tease out,

196
00:07:41,404 --> 00:07:43,245
all of the places or or at least

197
00:07:43,245 --> 00:07:44,305
many of the places

198
00:07:44,685 --> 00:07:49,024
where cannabis companies can reduce their energy usage

199
00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:50,629
and,

200
00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:53,689
and and and reduce their carbon footprint.

201
00:07:54,149 --> 00:07:55,770
Now there there's no question,

202
00:07:56,470 --> 00:07:58,089
you know, reading your paper

203
00:07:58,470 --> 00:07:59,930
that you're making the case

204
00:08:00,230 --> 00:08:03,509
for outdoor cannabis, of which we are huge

205
00:08:03,509 --> 00:08:06,035
proponents for here on shaping fire.

206
00:08:07,615 --> 00:08:08,915
We also recognize

207
00:08:09,215 --> 00:08:11,715
that many of the companies have got themselves

208
00:08:12,014 --> 00:08:13,955
into the indoor side,

209
00:08:15,295 --> 00:08:17,615
financially, and they might not be able to

210
00:08:17,615 --> 00:08:20,180
transition out right away. And so maybe in

211
00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:20,839
the interim,

212
00:08:21,220 --> 00:08:23,319
we can at least start with

213
00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:24,920
electrical

214
00:08:25,939 --> 00:08:27,639
being used less often

215
00:08:28,420 --> 00:08:30,580
and start moving us all, the industry as

216
00:08:30,580 --> 00:08:32,519
a whole, in the right direction.

217
00:08:34,524 --> 00:08:37,804
Yeah. I appreciate the the vantage point. And,

218
00:08:37,804 --> 00:08:39,164
you know, I'd say for,

219
00:08:39,725 --> 00:08:41,745
for me in particular, you know, my home

220
00:08:41,884 --> 00:08:43,485
field, my work is around,

221
00:08:44,125 --> 00:08:47,565
energy management, energy analysis, energy efficiency. And where

222
00:08:47,565 --> 00:08:49,019
I started here on this spectrum,

223
00:08:54,860 --> 00:08:57,500
cultivation, and and we can achieve whatever we

224
00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:00,139
need to by doing that. And over time,

225
00:09:00,139 --> 00:09:01,034
I found how,

226
00:09:02,315 --> 00:09:04,475
virtually impossible that is to really get to

227
00:09:04,475 --> 00:09:06,714
a zero net carbon. So I I didn't

228
00:09:06,714 --> 00:09:09,754
start with the assumption that outdoor was the

229
00:09:09,754 --> 00:09:12,154
only really tenable, you know, direction. I I

230
00:09:12,154 --> 00:09:14,074
came to that very slowly because it it

231
00:09:14,235 --> 00:09:14,735
again,

232
00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:18,720
my my hammer is energy efficiency and all

233
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,279
my solutions all my nails are energy efficiency

234
00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:22,799
usually, you know, in the world. But this

235
00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:23,699
is a very different

236
00:09:24,079 --> 00:09:26,259
kind of, a very interesting rich,

237
00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:28,480
you know, sandbox here where there are a

238
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,644
lot more options. The other thing just to

239
00:09:30,725 --> 00:09:33,605
to, footnote is that we, it's important to

240
00:09:33,605 --> 00:09:34,825
talk about energy

241
00:09:35,365 --> 00:09:36,745
as distinct from electricity.

242
00:09:37,365 --> 00:09:40,165
It's it's not, often the case, certainly not

243
00:09:40,165 --> 00:09:42,904
always the case that, a given grow,

244
00:09:43,445 --> 00:09:44,665
outdoor or indoor

245
00:09:45,179 --> 00:09:48,539
is all electric. There's fossil fuel used in

246
00:09:48,539 --> 00:09:50,059
a myriad of ways. That doesn't mean in

247
00:09:50,059 --> 00:09:52,559
every single grow. But like in my study,

248
00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:54,639
where I'm looking at the whole life cycle,

249
00:09:55,179 --> 00:09:57,019
not just the cultivation phase,

250
00:09:57,340 --> 00:09:59,934
half of the total energy nationally at the

251
00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:01,774
end of the day is fossil fuel Yeah.

252
00:10:01,934 --> 00:10:03,394
Directly, not even including

253
00:10:03,855 --> 00:10:06,595
the fossil fuel going into the electricity production

254
00:10:06,735 --> 00:10:07,235
itself.

255
00:10:07,855 --> 00:10:09,774
So, it's important to think in terms of,

256
00:10:10,574 --> 00:10:12,735
think think widely and look widely at at

257
00:10:12,735 --> 00:10:15,360
where energy in all its forms might be

258
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,440
used. Excellent. Thank you for pointing that out

259
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,299
because I I definitely used the word electrical,

260
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,879
earlier. And and and honestly, I will probably

261
00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:25,039
slip and use it again. So I I

262
00:10:25,039 --> 00:10:26,000
appreciate you,

263
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,039
using that clarity, and and I apologize for

264
00:10:29,039 --> 00:10:30,615
when I I missed it again. It's fine.

265
00:10:30,615 --> 00:10:32,534
It's a it's a common thing. And and,

266
00:10:32,534 --> 00:10:34,054
you know, maybe another thing just to layer

267
00:10:34,054 --> 00:10:35,414
in here and we can come back to

268
00:10:35,414 --> 00:10:36,934
it later if you want is that, you

269
00:10:36,934 --> 00:10:38,534
know, while that, like you said, the title

270
00:10:38,534 --> 00:10:39,274
of the paper,

271
00:10:40,054 --> 00:10:42,214
you know, flags or signals, one of the

272
00:10:42,214 --> 00:10:45,029
main findings, it is nuanced wording and that,

273
00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:48,410
on the one hand, outdoor is not intrinsically,

274
00:10:49,830 --> 00:10:52,009
the solution or fully sustainable.

275
00:10:52,629 --> 00:10:55,670
And indoor, you know, similarly, there's a big

276
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:58,090
spectrum of emissions and things you might get.

277
00:10:58,310 --> 00:11:00,649
So, there there can be plenty of problems

278
00:11:01,074 --> 00:11:03,875
around energy and sustainability more broadly with outdoors.

279
00:11:03,875 --> 00:11:05,875
So it's not simply a matter of flicking

280
00:11:05,875 --> 00:11:06,774
a switch and,

281
00:11:07,315 --> 00:11:08,034
going to,

282
00:11:08,514 --> 00:11:09,654
especially the current

283
00:11:10,274 --> 00:11:13,554
industrial scale paradigm of of outdoor. It's more

284
00:11:13,554 --> 00:11:15,735
than that would would be needed to really

285
00:11:15,875 --> 00:11:16,375
address

286
00:11:17,129 --> 00:11:18,970
climate, you know, let alone all the other

287
00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:21,690
environmental things that we're aware of. I was

288
00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:24,170
really surprised in the new paper of all

289
00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:25,070
the places

290
00:11:25,450 --> 00:11:26,670
that you illustrate

291
00:11:27,049 --> 00:11:27,549
where,

292
00:11:28,009 --> 00:11:29,950
energy is being used intensely

293
00:11:30,644 --> 00:11:33,205
and and is a is a place that

294
00:11:33,205 --> 00:11:35,865
we can either decrease our energy use or

295
00:11:36,404 --> 00:11:38,565
or get rid of it completely by replacing

296
00:11:38,565 --> 00:11:39,065
it.

297
00:11:40,085 --> 00:11:42,404
I actually find more interest in that than

298
00:11:42,404 --> 00:11:44,110
even in the lights. But but let's go

299
00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:46,990
ahead and start with that because everybody pretty

300
00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:49,309
much considers that to be the elephant in

301
00:11:49,309 --> 00:11:51,789
the room is is that when we when

302
00:11:51,789 --> 00:11:53,570
we bring the plants indoors,

303
00:11:53,949 --> 00:11:56,445
we have to create a man made sun.

304
00:11:56,924 --> 00:11:59,245
And and we do that by throwing lots

305
00:11:59,245 --> 00:12:00,544
of jewels at them.

306
00:12:01,004 --> 00:12:01,504
And,

307
00:12:03,804 --> 00:12:04,785
instead of me,

308
00:12:05,245 --> 00:12:07,985
trying to tease out the specifics,

309
00:12:08,620 --> 00:12:10,779
I know that you have answered this question

310
00:12:10,779 --> 00:12:12,779
many times. So I'm just gonna kinda hand

311
00:12:12,779 --> 00:12:15,120
you the mic and ask you to describe

312
00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:16,559
the problem

313
00:12:17,179 --> 00:12:19,980
with using so many so much energy in

314
00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:21,440
cannabis indoor cultivation.

315
00:12:22,945 --> 00:12:25,184
Sure. And and we can start with lights

316
00:12:25,184 --> 00:12:26,904
because that's where you wanted to start, and

317
00:12:26,904 --> 00:12:29,664
it and I agree it's where everyone goes.

318
00:12:29,664 --> 00:12:31,845
And some people, okay, say on the layperson

319
00:12:31,904 --> 00:12:33,904
end of the spectrum thinks that's the only

320
00:12:33,904 --> 00:12:35,445
energy use, which is

321
00:12:35,789 --> 00:12:38,429
fine, you know, mistake or whatever for general

322
00:12:38,429 --> 00:12:40,990
public. But, it's big. Lighting is big. We're

323
00:12:40,990 --> 00:12:42,589
talking I mean, of course, there are different

324
00:12:42,669 --> 00:12:43,809
lots of different growing

325
00:12:44,190 --> 00:12:46,029
context. There's a spectrum, so you can have

326
00:12:46,029 --> 00:12:47,970
the the plant factory that's windowless

327
00:12:48,335 --> 00:12:50,495
and all the lumens, all the photons are

328
00:12:50,495 --> 00:12:52,615
electric. You can, of course, have, I hate

329
00:12:52,615 --> 00:12:54,735
the term mixed lighting because it's like jargon

330
00:12:54,735 --> 00:12:56,975
and, you know, regulators use it, but let's

331
00:12:56,975 --> 00:12:57,794
call them greenhouses.

332
00:12:58,174 --> 00:13:00,975
And greenhouses can be also no electric photons,

333
00:13:00,975 --> 00:13:02,735
or they can have some electric photons, and

334
00:13:02,735 --> 00:13:03,475
most industrial,

335
00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:08,009
cannabis greenhouses do use electric lighting. But anyway,

336
00:13:08,009 --> 00:13:08,809
lighting is,

337
00:13:09,690 --> 00:13:11,529
you know, loosely like a third of the

338
00:13:11,529 --> 00:13:13,929
total energy use, total carbon footprint. It totally

339
00:13:13,929 --> 00:13:16,089
depends, you know, where you are and and

340
00:13:16,089 --> 00:13:16,570
what,

341
00:13:17,049 --> 00:13:18,509
genetics you have and,

342
00:13:19,014 --> 00:13:20,615
what what the facility is like. But, you

343
00:13:20,615 --> 00:13:21,914
know, lighting is big.

344
00:13:23,414 --> 00:13:26,054
And whether it's LED or HID or some

345
00:13:26,134 --> 00:13:26,634
or,

346
00:13:27,334 --> 00:13:28,235
something else,

347
00:13:28,855 --> 00:13:31,095
nickel metal halide, it's, it's still a lot

348
00:13:31,095 --> 00:13:32,850
of energy, you know. And, people look at

349
00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:35,330
the LED as this panacea, and and it's

350
00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:36,070
rolled out,

351
00:13:36,850 --> 00:13:37,350
reflexively

352
00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:39,649
all the time in conversations. And I'm a

353
00:13:39,649 --> 00:13:41,250
big fan of LED. My house is all

354
00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:43,589
LED. You know, it's what's not to like?

355
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:46,495
No mercury, you know, energy savings. But,

356
00:13:47,054 --> 00:13:48,434
remember that to replace,

357
00:13:48,814 --> 00:13:50,674
let's call it a thousand watt HID

358
00:13:51,134 --> 00:13:53,534
light, it's a that's a 600 watt LED.

359
00:13:53,534 --> 00:13:56,014
It's still like a small floor heater under

360
00:13:56,014 --> 00:13:58,334
your desk. It's incredibly energy intensive and you

361
00:13:58,334 --> 00:14:00,095
put, you know, few thousand of those in

362
00:14:00,095 --> 00:14:02,299
a big greenhouse and you need a lot

363
00:14:02,299 --> 00:14:04,459
of air conditioning to deal just with the

364
00:14:04,459 --> 00:14:06,699
heat off the LEDs. So, yes, it saves

365
00:14:06,699 --> 00:14:07,199
energy,

366
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,259
but it only moves the needle so much

367
00:14:09,259 --> 00:14:11,740
and it's only addressing a third of the

368
00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:13,839
energy use. And, yes, you may get some

369
00:14:14,045 --> 00:14:16,125
cooling savings. You may also get some increased

370
00:14:16,125 --> 00:14:17,825
heating energy need.

371
00:14:18,365 --> 00:14:19,965
So it's, you know, it's a system. We

372
00:14:19,965 --> 00:14:22,445
always think about buildings as systems, whether it's

373
00:14:22,445 --> 00:14:24,125
a, you know, a school or an office

374
00:14:24,125 --> 00:14:26,524
or a cannabis grow. Their leg bone's connected

375
00:14:26,524 --> 00:14:28,764
to the hip bone, and lighting affects cooling,

376
00:14:28,764 --> 00:14:30,289
and and, you

377
00:14:31,389 --> 00:14:33,230
know, all the uses are are connected in

378
00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:34,210
important ways.

379
00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:36,509
So I I don't know. I hope that

380
00:14:36,509 --> 00:14:38,750
that's helpful as far as lighting. Can talk

381
00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:40,590
more about it. There's some I've got a

382
00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:42,830
follow-up for you. Yeah. Sure. So so when

383
00:14:42,830 --> 00:14:43,970
we go to conventions,

384
00:14:44,615 --> 00:14:45,995
the lighting manufacturers,

385
00:14:47,254 --> 00:14:50,294
are continuing to impress us with or or

386
00:14:50,294 --> 00:14:52,475
seeking to impress us with,

387
00:14:53,014 --> 00:14:53,514
their,

388
00:14:54,134 --> 00:14:55,674
increased energy conservation,

389
00:14:56,054 --> 00:14:58,470
and things are getting better, and and every

390
00:14:58,470 --> 00:15:00,970
new model is going to to use

391
00:15:01,350 --> 00:15:02,330
less energy

392
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:04,649
and and save the cultivators

393
00:15:06,309 --> 00:15:07,850
pocket money which is great

394
00:15:09,029 --> 00:15:10,009
do you see

395
00:15:12,284 --> 00:15:12,784
exploratory

396
00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:17,565
science in cultivation lights that is forthcoming that's

397
00:15:17,565 --> 00:15:19,325
actually going to be helpful? Because I get

398
00:15:19,325 --> 00:15:21,664
what you're saying right now about LED

399
00:15:22,284 --> 00:15:25,199
is yes. Yes. It's better than metal alloyed,

400
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:27,279
but really, it's not moving the needle that

401
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:27,779
much.

402
00:15:28,319 --> 00:15:30,720
And and if if I wanted to keep

403
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,039
my LEDs and wanted to keep running indoor,

404
00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:35,620
my first response would be, well, the technology

405
00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:38,235
is almost there, and and it's about to

406
00:15:38,235 --> 00:15:39,834
be better. And so we just need to

407
00:15:39,834 --> 00:15:42,254
put our energy into LED research

408
00:15:42,714 --> 00:15:45,134
instead of trying to move us outdoors.

409
00:15:45,595 --> 00:15:46,095
Yeah.

410
00:15:47,195 --> 00:15:48,794
This is a broader, you know, just kind

411
00:15:48,794 --> 00:15:49,615
of conceptual

412
00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:52,320
problem or challenge or opportunity depending how you

413
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,480
wanna look at it in energy management writ

414
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,279
large. There there's never a silver bullet. I

415
00:15:57,279 --> 00:15:58,740
mean, data center,

416
00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:02,959
cement factory, cannabis grow, house, either the it's

417
00:16:02,959 --> 00:16:03,459
it's

418
00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:04,500
a orchestra,

419
00:16:04,955 --> 00:16:07,115
you know, of of measures that you need

420
00:16:07,115 --> 00:16:08,174
and want and

421
00:16:08,554 --> 00:16:10,394
are prudent to pursue for all kinds of

422
00:16:10,394 --> 00:16:12,475
reasons. So there's never one thing that's gonna

423
00:16:12,475 --> 00:16:14,414
solve a problem. There really isn't.

424
00:16:15,514 --> 00:16:17,434
Even, you know, you look at a car,

425
00:16:17,434 --> 00:16:19,740
like an electric car, well, there's, you know,

426
00:16:20,059 --> 00:16:22,940
30 different energy efficiency measures going on within

427
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:24,940
that that car. So there's always a constellation

428
00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:25,519
of things.

429
00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:26,799
With lighting,

430
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:29,740
just to footnote a little bit what we

431
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:31,899
were saying a minute ago, it's also you

432
00:16:31,899 --> 00:16:32,879
know, it's very,

433
00:16:33,754 --> 00:16:35,195
I don't like the word strain. I know

434
00:16:35,195 --> 00:16:37,035
everybody uses it, but it's not actually the

435
00:16:37,035 --> 00:16:39,355
word that's used in agronomy, you know, more

436
00:16:39,355 --> 00:16:41,835
broadly. They're they're they're crops, you know, or

437
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:42,575
they're cultivars,

438
00:16:43,835 --> 00:16:44,335
cultivars.

439
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:47,830
There's interest they're interesting papers, not enough of

440
00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:50,230
them, but I in my paper figure five

441
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:51,830
brings the data together from one of the

442
00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:53,269
studies, and they looked at,

443
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:57,269
multiple strains under LED versus HID lighting, and

444
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:58,090
it's sobering

445
00:16:58,434 --> 00:17:00,835
to see, that some of them don't save

446
00:17:00,835 --> 00:17:03,075
any energy. They're much very little energy, and

447
00:17:03,075 --> 00:17:04,595
others save a lot. And so there's like

448
00:17:04,595 --> 00:17:05,815
a factor of strain

449
00:17:06,275 --> 00:17:08,535
and genetics and cultivar in

450
00:17:08,835 --> 00:17:10,695
the lighting performance. Also,

451
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,880
there's a problem, again, more broadly in energy

452
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,000
called the take back effect that, actually gets

453
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,539
kind of embraced by

454
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,320
climate deniers and so on a lot by

455
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,160
saying that, well, if we save energy in

456
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,759
one place, we're just gonna use more somewhere

457
00:17:24,759 --> 00:17:26,384
else, and I'm not that person. I don't

458
00:17:26,545 --> 00:17:28,545
subscribe to that, and the evidence doesn't support

459
00:17:28,545 --> 00:17:29,525
that. But

460
00:17:30,305 --> 00:17:31,984
you do see a lot of places where

461
00:17:31,984 --> 00:17:33,664
cannabis grows, and you'll you know, in the

462
00:17:33,664 --> 00:17:36,305
trade literature, you'll see the advertisements from the

463
00:17:36,305 --> 00:17:37,125
lighting manufacturers

464
00:17:37,505 --> 00:17:40,224
brighter than the sun, not just as bright

465
00:17:40,224 --> 00:17:41,845
as. And people will

466
00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:42,710
increase

467
00:17:43,089 --> 00:17:43,829
the the DLIs

468
00:17:44,609 --> 00:17:46,769
and increase their yields, and so we have

469
00:17:46,769 --> 00:17:48,929
to think about energy per unit yield rather

470
00:17:48,929 --> 00:17:51,429
than energy per square foot and so on.

471
00:17:51,490 --> 00:17:53,730
But it is often happening that people, because

472
00:17:53,730 --> 00:17:55,109
they're saving so much money

473
00:17:55,845 --> 00:17:58,804
on lighting energy bills, that they will pump

474
00:17:58,804 --> 00:18:01,845
more light in. And so that's not the

475
00:18:01,845 --> 00:18:02,345
expected,

476
00:18:03,045 --> 00:18:05,525
you know, behavior with energy efficiency. And so

477
00:18:05,525 --> 00:18:06,744
one has to look carefully

478
00:18:07,285 --> 00:18:09,119
at how much energy is being saved and

479
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,220
how you're measuring, you know, those savings.

480
00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:13,519
So it's just a little bit more in

481
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:15,279
light. You can steer me back around if

482
00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,240
I if I, didn't actually answer your question.

483
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,724
No. No. That that's a good answer. So

484
00:18:21,105 --> 00:18:22,325
my follow-up question

485
00:18:22,705 --> 00:18:23,845
now I recognize

486
00:18:24,224 --> 00:18:24,705
that,

487
00:18:25,424 --> 00:18:28,964
that you are here to raise the flag

488
00:18:29,184 --> 00:18:30,884
of using too much energy,

489
00:18:31,345 --> 00:18:32,644
and it isn't necessarily

490
00:18:33,184 --> 00:18:35,845
also your mandate to solve them all

491
00:18:36,279 --> 00:18:39,240
and to solve the policy questions behind them

492
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,799
as well. So so with that in mind,

493
00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:44,200
I'm still gonna ask you a solutions policy

494
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:44,700
question,

495
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,119
just because you have had this conversation with

496
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,180
many people, and perhaps you have heard something.

497
00:18:51,565 --> 00:18:52,065
But,

498
00:18:52,605 --> 00:18:54,125
you know, you're you're not, you know, you're

499
00:18:54,125 --> 00:18:55,904
you're you're a friend of cannabis,

500
00:18:56,285 --> 00:18:57,424
and and,

501
00:18:57,965 --> 00:19:01,585
you're aware of the indoor outdoor cannabis debate

502
00:19:01,884 --> 00:19:02,865
about quality.

503
00:19:03,484 --> 00:19:03,965
And,

504
00:19:04,365 --> 00:19:05,025
you know,

505
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,419
I and generally the guests on this show

506
00:19:08,419 --> 00:19:11,779
loved, you know, we stand with sun grown

507
00:19:11,779 --> 00:19:14,039
flower as have as having a wider,

508
00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:17,079
aroma profile

509
00:19:18,355 --> 00:19:21,654
and, healthier plants and, you know, more resilient,

510
00:19:21,714 --> 00:19:23,234
higher yields, all all of this kind of

511
00:19:23,234 --> 00:19:24,855
business. But there is something,

512
00:19:25,714 --> 00:19:27,875
that is quite special and unique about,

513
00:19:28,275 --> 00:19:31,894
flower that is grown indoors. It's aesthetic value.

514
00:19:32,309 --> 00:19:33,829
And also to get,

515
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:36,250
outdoor cannabis

516
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:39,929
that competes with the quality of indoor,

517
00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:42,389
there are only a handful of places in

518
00:19:42,389 --> 00:19:44,250
the country that can do that naturally.

519
00:19:45,034 --> 00:19:46,954
And and and so a lot of people

520
00:19:46,954 --> 00:19:49,994
just aren't interested in this, discussion at all

521
00:19:49,994 --> 00:19:50,494
because

522
00:19:51,194 --> 00:19:52,414
they want to grow

523
00:19:52,714 --> 00:19:55,355
the best cannabis in their region, and they

524
00:19:55,355 --> 00:19:56,414
don't live in Garberville.

525
00:19:56,714 --> 00:19:57,214
Right?

526
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,599
And so, and so people say, hey. I'm

527
00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:02,539
I'm going to turn to my indoor.

528
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,839
Do you have any idea of how we

529
00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:08,200
can resolve the the people wanting to grow

530
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,400
good cannabis in places where the weather is

531
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,779
not Northern California?

532
00:20:13,454 --> 00:20:13,954
Yeah.

533
00:20:14,894 --> 00:20:15,714
Great question.

534
00:20:16,095 --> 00:20:17,474
It's so important.

535
00:20:18,255 --> 00:20:18,755
And

536
00:20:19,534 --> 00:20:20,914
some of the answers are counterintuitive,

537
00:20:21,294 --> 00:20:22,734
I think, and I don't pretend to have

538
00:20:22,734 --> 00:20:24,335
all the answers, but it's it's such an

539
00:20:24,335 --> 00:20:27,410
important line of conversation. And and, if you

540
00:20:27,410 --> 00:20:29,250
you probably have already, but if not, you

541
00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:31,329
know, I think a whole show on really

542
00:20:31,329 --> 00:20:33,910
drilling into the quality question is important. I'm

543
00:20:34,130 --> 00:20:34,529
I'm,

544
00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:37,170
you know, there's a lot to it. Right?

545
00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:40,075
What defines quality? There's, you know, the visual,

546
00:20:40,075 --> 00:20:42,815
there's the aromatic, there's the medical effect, there's

547
00:20:43,515 --> 00:20:45,835
the inebriation effect, and there's so many vectors

548
00:20:45,835 --> 00:20:47,835
of quality. They're all legitimate. I mean, they're

549
00:20:47,835 --> 00:20:49,674
all things people are seeking, just like a

550
00:20:49,674 --> 00:20:50,335
good wine.

551
00:20:50,714 --> 00:20:52,554
But there is debate there for sure. I

552
00:20:52,554 --> 00:20:54,419
mean, there's a lot of and including in

553
00:20:54,419 --> 00:20:57,240
the science literature looking at CBD profiles,

554
00:20:58,419 --> 00:21:01,480
that, you know, outdoor is not necessarily inferior

555
00:21:01,619 --> 00:21:02,279
at all

556
00:21:02,579 --> 00:21:04,899
by, you know, many metrics. And and when

557
00:21:04,899 --> 00:21:06,659
you look at and I'm not saying it's

558
00:21:06,659 --> 00:21:08,359
superior either. I'm just saying

559
00:21:08,954 --> 00:21:10,654
one can't just have, like, a blanket

560
00:21:11,914 --> 00:21:12,414
concession,

561
00:21:12,794 --> 00:21:14,734
you know, that indoor is superior.

562
00:21:15,434 --> 00:21:17,115
And certainly when it comes to potency, I

563
00:21:17,115 --> 00:21:18,875
mean, that itself is a whole hour. Right?

564
00:21:18,875 --> 00:21:21,134
And, you know, is 35%

565
00:21:21,599 --> 00:21:24,160
higher quality than 25%, you know, is is

566
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,339
that really how we look at this?

567
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,640
And obviously, when you're making oil, then that's

568
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,240
not or any kind of extract, right, that

569
00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:32,099
that's not even the thing anymore.

570
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:33,619
So higher potency

571
00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:35,619
to me is one of the weaker

572
00:21:36,125 --> 00:21:37,345
arguments. You know, certainly,

573
00:21:38,525 --> 00:21:39,664
aesthetics are there.

574
00:21:40,684 --> 00:21:41,884
Going back to what we were saying a

575
00:21:41,884 --> 00:21:43,085
few minutes ago, you know, there is this

576
00:21:43,085 --> 00:21:45,164
spectrum of growing environments and you have people

577
00:21:45,164 --> 00:21:47,485
like, you know, Jeremy Moberg out out there

578
00:21:47,485 --> 00:21:49,184
in the Eastern East Of Washington

579
00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:51,150
growing in, you know, I don't know the

580
00:21:51,150 --> 00:21:53,549
right word, hoop houses or whatnot. Getting, you

581
00:21:53,549 --> 00:21:56,190
know, extraordinarily beautiful, I think, you know, award

582
00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:57,409
winning, cosmetically

583
00:21:57,710 --> 00:21:59,630
flowers, and and I'm sure many other, you

584
00:21:59,630 --> 00:22:01,884
know, people around. And like you said, some

585
00:22:01,884 --> 00:22:04,125
people, are very successful, but it is an

586
00:22:04,125 --> 00:22:06,045
art. It is not as easy as most

587
00:22:06,045 --> 00:22:06,865
people think.

588
00:22:07,404 --> 00:22:10,625
But I think, you know, that's doable. And,

589
00:22:12,125 --> 00:22:13,025
I think also

590
00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:15,980
there is the baked in assumption, you know,

591
00:22:15,980 --> 00:22:17,759
in what you're saying, which is fair,

592
00:22:18,059 --> 00:22:19,740
that everyone wants to be able to grow

593
00:22:19,740 --> 00:22:20,480
it everywhere.

594
00:22:21,420 --> 00:22:23,519
Does everyone grow pineapples everywhere?

595
00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:27,259
Does everyone grow cranberries everywhere? Does everyone grow

596
00:22:27,259 --> 00:22:30,404
kiwis everywhere? Does everyone grow, you know, corn

597
00:22:30,404 --> 00:22:31,944
everywhere? I mean, I live on the Mendocino

598
00:22:32,005 --> 00:22:33,524
Coast. I can't grow freaking corn. I'm not

599
00:22:33,524 --> 00:22:35,524
gonna build a greenhouse to grow corn. You

600
00:22:35,524 --> 00:22:37,544
know, you can't really succeed at that anyway.

601
00:22:37,605 --> 00:22:39,845
Mhmm. So there is there is a kind

602
00:22:39,845 --> 00:22:42,085
of swimming against the tide there. I did

603
00:22:42,085 --> 00:22:43,845
a one of the many little calculations in

604
00:22:43,845 --> 00:22:44,825
the paper was,

605
00:22:45,609 --> 00:22:47,609
how much land area would it take to

606
00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:48,109
grow

607
00:22:48,650 --> 00:22:51,289
all of the cannabis, you know, 24,000

608
00:22:51,289 --> 00:22:54,169
tons roughly of cannabis that Americans consume every

609
00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:56,190
year in The US? And the answer is

610
00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:58,829
0.003%,

611
00:22:58,970 --> 00:23:00,589
three thousandths of 1%

612
00:23:00,734 --> 00:23:01,954
of all US farmland.

613
00:23:02,575 --> 00:23:04,335
So, you know, we could clearly grow all

614
00:23:04,335 --> 00:23:06,494
the cannabis that Americans want and it could

615
00:23:06,494 --> 00:23:07,154
all be,

616
00:23:07,855 --> 00:23:09,934
you know, in almost, you know, the ideal

617
00:23:09,934 --> 00:23:11,855
climate. I'm not saying that's happening tomorrow, you

618
00:23:11,855 --> 00:23:14,174
know. That's a whole hour about interstate commerce

619
00:23:14,174 --> 00:23:15,775
and Right. Right. Pros and cons of that

620
00:23:15,775 --> 00:23:18,130
and so on. But, there is a kind

621
00:23:18,130 --> 00:23:19,349
of a an implicit,

622
00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:21,349
you know, requirement

623
00:23:21,730 --> 00:23:23,430
that it be grown everywhere.

624
00:23:24,289 --> 00:23:25,269
And that said,

625
00:23:26,049 --> 00:23:27,570
I don't know. I mean, there is outdoor

626
00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:29,025
cultivation in every state

627
00:23:29,345 --> 00:23:31,585
And I don't you know, Alaska, you name

628
00:23:31,585 --> 00:23:33,505
it. And I don't know, you know, what

629
00:23:33,505 --> 00:23:35,424
the best producers in each state look like,

630
00:23:35,424 --> 00:23:36,724
but there is a lot of

631
00:23:37,424 --> 00:23:38,244
room there.

632
00:23:39,744 --> 00:23:41,664
And I don't I'm not aware that anyone

633
00:23:41,664 --> 00:23:42,964
has found, like, a medical

634
00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:46,460
element that is only achievable by indoor, but

635
00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:47,980
maybe that's there. And if there's a need

636
00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:49,980
for medicine, you know, these things are are

637
00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:50,640
all nuanced,

638
00:23:51,099 --> 00:23:53,500
in all spectrums. And and if there's an

639
00:23:53,579 --> 00:23:55,920
really a need that's demonstrated for indoor,

640
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:58,684
for for some particular reason, you know, then

641
00:23:58,684 --> 00:24:00,845
that that should be looked at and supported.

642
00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:01,805
And then it goes to what you were

643
00:24:01,805 --> 00:24:03,085
saying a minute ago. So what do we

644
00:24:03,085 --> 00:24:04,605
do here and how do we make that

645
00:24:04,605 --> 00:24:05,265
more efficient?

646
00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:07,644
Because also, you know, it's easy for me

647
00:24:07,644 --> 00:24:09,184
to say, well, in a perfect world,

648
00:24:09,929 --> 00:24:12,009
this cultivation more of this cultivation would be

649
00:24:12,009 --> 00:24:13,769
outdoors than it is now. And and, you

650
00:24:13,769 --> 00:24:15,929
know, remember, a lot of cultivation, not just

651
00:24:15,929 --> 00:24:17,309
at small, you know,

652
00:24:18,089 --> 00:24:21,129
artisanal scales, but at industrial scales is outdoor

653
00:24:21,129 --> 00:24:23,210
already. And I know most of that's headed

654
00:24:23,210 --> 00:24:24,269
for oil. But, anyway,

655
00:24:25,154 --> 00:24:27,394
there's there's a lot Which is a shame.

656
00:24:27,394 --> 00:24:30,035
Right? Like, it's it's really a shame that

657
00:24:30,035 --> 00:24:32,835
so much of the outdoor is just, air

658
00:24:32,835 --> 00:24:35,394
quotes, just headed for oil. I mean, oil

659
00:24:35,394 --> 00:24:38,215
is honorable, but but it's it's it's really

660
00:24:38,275 --> 00:24:40,384
amazing to me that people, treat

661
00:24:41,369 --> 00:24:43,630
treat outdoor as such a

662
00:24:44,009 --> 00:24:46,029
a a mediocre commodity. Yeah.

663
00:24:46,970 --> 00:24:48,990
When when I go down to California,

664
00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:53,390
I'm only interested in finding Northern California regenerative

665
00:24:53,609 --> 00:24:56,174
outdoor to purchase, and they wanna put all

666
00:24:56,174 --> 00:24:56,674
this

667
00:24:56,974 --> 00:24:59,694
mass produced indoor shlock on me. And and

668
00:24:59,694 --> 00:25:01,075
it's really surprising

669
00:25:01,375 --> 00:25:02,994
that that the outdoor,

670
00:25:03,375 --> 00:25:06,434
what I consider the higher quality regenerative stuff,

671
00:25:06,494 --> 00:25:09,029
is discounted because people don't want it. It

672
00:25:09,109 --> 00:25:11,529
astonishes me how that market dynamic

673
00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:14,650
works. Yeah. Certainly, you know, one,

674
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:18,410
participant in this whole ecosystem are the budtenders,

675
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:21,769
and their level of literacy or interest in

676
00:25:22,065 --> 00:25:24,065
the relative merits of the two in the

677
00:25:24,065 --> 00:25:24,964
carbon footprint,

678
00:25:25,664 --> 00:25:28,085
is, you know, small in almost all cases.

679
00:25:28,464 --> 00:25:30,224
And of course, there's no product labeling, which

680
00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:32,224
is ironic. Right? There aren't many industries that

681
00:25:32,224 --> 00:25:34,224
have as much product labeling in the sense

682
00:25:34,224 --> 00:25:37,059
of CBD profiles and THC and and and,

683
00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:39,859
differentiation on cultivars. You know, you don't go

684
00:25:39,859 --> 00:25:41,460
to the market and and have all the

685
00:25:41,460 --> 00:25:41,940
different,

686
00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:43,400
you know,

687
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,500
types of corn labeled by their cultivar. Mhmm.

688
00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:48,019
Or, you know, there might be a little

689
00:25:48,019 --> 00:25:49,619
bit of that. So, you know, that's an

690
00:25:49,619 --> 00:25:51,299
issue. I think consumer awareness

691
00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:53,505
I mean, we're getting away from the technical

692
00:25:53,505 --> 00:25:55,904
into the human and into the consumer level,

693
00:25:55,904 --> 00:25:57,684
but, you know, consumers are not aware,

694
00:25:57,984 --> 00:25:59,524
you know, that one pre roll

695
00:25:59,904 --> 00:26:02,224
emits, you know, 5,000 times its weight in

696
00:26:02,224 --> 00:26:03,744
c o two. That one pre roll is

697
00:26:03,744 --> 00:26:06,599
like driving 65 miles in the best plug

698
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:08,440
in hybrid that's out there, that one pre

699
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,599
roll is as much of a carbon footprint

700
00:26:10,599 --> 00:26:11,900
as 300 cigarettes.

701
00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:12,839
And,

702
00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:15,500
I think things like that

703
00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,140
are you know, consumer awareness is important.

704
00:26:18,454 --> 00:26:20,375
People talk a lot about free markets and

705
00:26:20,375 --> 00:26:22,694
markets functioning well and not needing regulation. Well,

706
00:26:22,694 --> 00:26:25,335
one of those assumptions is that the consumers

707
00:26:25,335 --> 00:26:27,894
have perfect information about everything and are making

708
00:26:27,894 --> 00:26:28,394
decisions

709
00:26:28,855 --> 00:26:30,855
with a full, you know, visibility of their

710
00:26:30,855 --> 00:26:32,954
choices. And so that's,

711
00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:35,970
you know, we're we're straying from the quality

712
00:26:35,970 --> 00:26:37,730
issue, I guess. It's still, you know, it's

713
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:39,490
consumer choice, but there are a lot of

714
00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:41,410
attributes and quality is one of them. And

715
00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:43,970
you could also argue that the environmental footprint

716
00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:45,910
is an element of quality,

717
00:26:46,244 --> 00:26:46,744
and

718
00:26:47,365 --> 00:26:49,045
a given consumer could look at it that

719
00:26:49,045 --> 00:26:51,605
way or they could not. But, without knowing

720
00:26:51,605 --> 00:26:53,125
what it is you, but not at all.

721
00:26:53,365 --> 00:26:54,565
To to weigh it in. Yeah. Yeah. And

722
00:26:54,565 --> 00:26:56,404
and you can't expect that they all ever

723
00:26:56,404 --> 00:26:58,404
would, like, just like with everything else. I

724
00:26:58,404 --> 00:26:58,904
mean,

725
00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:01,170
it's, you know, consumers are not trying to

726
00:27:01,170 --> 00:27:03,750
optimize our planet for environment.

727
00:27:05,329 --> 00:27:07,170
You asked, you know, you asked a bit

728
00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:07,670
about,

729
00:27:08,369 --> 00:27:10,289
you know, lighting and then going beyond lighting.

730
00:27:10,289 --> 00:27:12,305
And and so let's say lighting is roughly

731
00:27:12,305 --> 00:27:14,144
a third and your mileage may vary a

732
00:27:14,144 --> 00:27:16,705
lot. Mhmm. But, you know, there's heating, there's

733
00:27:16,705 --> 00:27:17,205
cooling,

734
00:27:18,065 --> 00:27:18,565
dehumidification

735
00:27:19,025 --> 00:27:20,785
is huge. You know, the plants are, of

736
00:27:20,785 --> 00:27:23,585
course, transpiring and releasing a lot of moisture.

737
00:27:23,585 --> 00:27:24,964
And if you're growing hydroponically,

738
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,680
there's a lot of water coming out, you

739
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,059
know, around the plant,

740
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,840
and that, you know, obviously creates a big

741
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,680
risk of of mold and and,

742
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,500
other issues. And so there's dehumidification,

743
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,500
which is very energy intensive.

744
00:27:38,965 --> 00:27:40,884
And then, you know, moving air, you know,

745
00:27:40,884 --> 00:27:44,005
there can be thirty, forty, 50, 60 air

746
00:27:44,005 --> 00:27:45,924
rotations in a in an indoor grow in

747
00:27:45,924 --> 00:27:47,924
a in an hour. You know, by for

748
00:27:47,924 --> 00:27:49,785
contrast, a house has, like, one

749
00:27:50,244 --> 00:27:52,565
or two or half of an air change

750
00:27:52,565 --> 00:27:54,990
per hour. Lot of energy moving

751
00:27:55,369 --> 00:27:58,410
that air. You're you're irrigating. You have pumps.

752
00:27:58,410 --> 00:27:58,910
You're,

753
00:27:59,529 --> 00:28:02,250
possibly treating that water. You're possibly heating that

754
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:04,809
water or even cooling that water depending what

755
00:28:04,809 --> 00:28:06,589
climate you're in. I bet down in Coachella

756
00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:09,835
Valley, they have cooler, you know, water chillers

757
00:28:09,835 --> 00:28:11,775
that are chilling, irrigation water.

758
00:28:12,154 --> 00:28:14,234
And, if you have your own water supply,

759
00:28:14,234 --> 00:28:14,974
you're pumping.

760
00:28:15,595 --> 00:28:17,755
And, so just as far as energy uses,

761
00:28:17,755 --> 00:28:19,994
and then there's curing. And then often there's

762
00:28:19,994 --> 00:28:21,695
extraction on the site. And then,

763
00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:23,919
you know, there's a lot of cold storage

764
00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:25,919
now in the industry. There's, you know, vast

765
00:28:25,919 --> 00:28:26,419
overproduction,

766
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,700
like,

767
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,960
vast overproduction in the industry. It's more well

768
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,279
documented in Canada than here, but definitely happening

769
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:34,880
here. And so that stuff, it's going into

770
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,315
refrigerators and freezers. And I'm just saying, like,

771
00:28:37,315 --> 00:28:38,994
it's it's back to the earlier point. There's

772
00:28:38,994 --> 00:28:40,835
no silver bullet, but all of these things

773
00:28:40,835 --> 00:28:43,335
use energy. And they all have energy efficiency

774
00:28:43,394 --> 00:28:45,255
options. You know, they're all

775
00:28:46,275 --> 00:28:49,075
manageable to a point, and they should be.

776
00:28:49,075 --> 00:28:50,595
You know, if they're used, they should be

777
00:28:50,595 --> 00:28:52,055
done as efficiently as possible.

778
00:28:52,529 --> 00:28:53,809
And so those are some of the ones

779
00:28:53,809 --> 00:28:55,890
that are in my numbers. They're for people

780
00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:57,890
who are concerned about, oh, Evans numbers are

781
00:28:57,890 --> 00:28:59,650
too high. There's a heck of a lot

782
00:28:59,650 --> 00:29:01,570
of things I left out because there were

783
00:29:01,570 --> 00:29:03,490
no good data, you know, to include them.

784
00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:05,744
And and there's a figure, I think figure

785
00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:07,105
one in the paper that kind of has

786
00:29:07,105 --> 00:29:09,744
this map of the the whole kind of

787
00:29:09,744 --> 00:29:10,884
carbon system,

788
00:29:11,744 --> 00:29:13,585
you know, around cannabis and which things I've

789
00:29:13,585 --> 00:29:15,605
been able to quantify and which I haven't.

790
00:29:15,904 --> 00:29:17,825
But, you know, on there's, you know, in

791
00:29:17,825 --> 00:29:20,559
energy, there's, you know, managing your carbon dioxide.

792
00:29:20,619 --> 00:29:22,539
There's UV disinfection. These are all things I

793
00:29:22,539 --> 00:29:24,160
couldn't include odor removal,

794
00:29:25,019 --> 00:29:26,779
not necessarily so much in cannabis, but, you

795
00:29:26,779 --> 00:29:28,539
know, in other indoor ag, which I'm also

796
00:29:28,539 --> 00:29:31,660
studying. There's soil steaming and cleaning soil to

797
00:29:31,660 --> 00:29:34,664
use again. There's recovering water out of your

798
00:29:34,664 --> 00:29:36,444
air conditioning or your HVAC,

799
00:29:37,224 --> 00:29:38,125
exhaust stream.

800
00:29:38,744 --> 00:29:40,904
In some climates, there's snow melting. Again, that's

801
00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:42,924
more for other crops, but that really happens.

802
00:29:43,704 --> 00:29:46,264
You've got your infield farm equipment, talking about

803
00:29:46,264 --> 00:29:48,924
outdoor. There's data. People wanna use AI

804
00:29:49,579 --> 00:29:51,259
and robots, you know. I mean, this industry

805
00:29:51,259 --> 00:29:53,579
is automating very rapidly, right, again, not at

806
00:29:53,579 --> 00:29:55,820
the small boutique grower level, but where most

807
00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:58,059
of the cultivation happenings. And and as we

808
00:29:58,059 --> 00:29:59,980
know, you know, AI uses a lot of

809
00:29:59,980 --> 00:30:03,740
energy, and and mechanization uses energy, and instead

810
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:04,720
of human labor.

811
00:30:05,184 --> 00:30:06,785
And, you know, the list kinda goes on,

812
00:30:06,785 --> 00:30:08,545
but just to say, yes, there there is

813
00:30:08,545 --> 00:30:11,205
a lot of other energy use besides lighting.

814
00:30:11,664 --> 00:30:13,585
The good news is that they all are

815
00:30:13,585 --> 00:30:15,825
manageable to one degree or another in terms

816
00:30:15,825 --> 00:30:17,365
of of energy efficiency.

817
00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:19,830
I've got one more question for you before

818
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:21,750
we go to the first break, Evan. And

819
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:22,650
and that is,

820
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:25,049
you know, you mentioned early on,

821
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:29,029
where moving from traditional lights to LED lights

822
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:30,794
is, you know, it's it's good to move

823
00:30:30,794 --> 00:30:32,714
in the right direction, but it doesn't really

824
00:30:32,714 --> 00:30:34,734
move the needle. Mhmm. And,

825
00:30:35,274 --> 00:30:37,115
you know, you just gave us a a

826
00:30:37,115 --> 00:30:39,194
healthy laundry list, and and we'll we'll we're

827
00:30:39,194 --> 00:30:40,954
gonna dig into more of those during the

828
00:30:40,954 --> 00:30:42,095
second set. But,

829
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:44,070
you know, you gave us a a laundry

830
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:46,429
list of all these other places that are,

831
00:30:46,869 --> 00:30:49,529
energy intensive in the indoor cultivation

832
00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:50,410
zone.

833
00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:51,529
If

834
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:54,089
if we went and got

835
00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:57,509
the energy efficient version of all of these,

836
00:30:57,509 --> 00:31:00,255
the the energy efficient, you know, water cooler,

837
00:31:00,255 --> 00:31:01,394
and the energy efficient,

838
00:31:02,335 --> 00:31:04,275
you know, lighting, and the energy efficient,

839
00:31:04,974 --> 00:31:07,134
you know, automation. And if we just went

840
00:31:07,134 --> 00:31:08,815
down the list and got them all Yeah.

841
00:31:08,894 --> 00:31:10,494
Would that move the needle or are we

842
00:31:10,494 --> 00:31:13,869
just kidding ourselves? It would, but it won't

843
00:31:14,410 --> 00:31:16,990
because It would, but it won't. Yeah. Because,

844
00:31:17,849 --> 00:31:19,230
yes, you can kind of,

845
00:31:20,410 --> 00:31:22,650
play god in the sense of specifying all

846
00:31:22,650 --> 00:31:24,009
this stuff and then we haven't even talked

847
00:31:24,009 --> 00:31:26,085
about solar yet. And, you know, you could

848
00:31:26,085 --> 00:31:27,944
make a zero energy grow,

849
00:31:28,404 --> 00:31:28,904
but

850
00:31:29,285 --> 00:31:29,785
the

851
00:31:30,565 --> 00:31:33,845
the obstacles to that, the the resistance in

852
00:31:33,845 --> 00:31:34,984
the market itself

853
00:31:35,365 --> 00:31:38,005
is enormous. I mean, the the surveys, the

854
00:31:38,005 --> 00:31:39,865
market surveys done of the growers

855
00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:42,130
say they want about a three year payback

856
00:31:42,130 --> 00:31:44,690
time on any capital investments. More than half

857
00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:46,289
of them want a three year payback time

858
00:31:46,289 --> 00:31:47,110
or less.

859
00:31:47,650 --> 00:31:49,809
So you can't even though that's 33%

860
00:31:49,809 --> 00:31:51,570
of return on your investment, I wish I

861
00:31:51,570 --> 00:31:53,190
could get that in the bank. Yeah.

862
00:31:53,494 --> 00:31:55,015
That's not gonna get you far at all.

863
00:31:55,015 --> 00:31:56,615
There was a big study that came out

864
00:31:56,615 --> 00:31:57,115
in

865
00:31:57,414 --> 00:31:59,575
Canada and there's been a few that have

866
00:31:59,575 --> 00:32:01,015
tried to look, you know, we call it

867
00:32:01,015 --> 00:32:01,674
kind of

868
00:32:02,375 --> 00:32:05,015
techno economic studies, you know. How about this

869
00:32:05,015 --> 00:32:06,375
technology? How much does this cost? How much

870
00:32:06,375 --> 00:32:07,200
does it save? Payback.

871
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:09,839
And they're getting numbers like, you know, 10

872
00:32:09,839 --> 00:32:10,880
to 20%

873
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,759
energy savings potential in cannabis grows. Again, you

874
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:14,899
can't just pick lighting.

875
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,200
Right? I mean, LED is hard enough to

876
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,559
get it to pencil, but, you know, you

877
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:20,259
have to look at all these end uses.

878
00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:21,299
And so,

879
00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:23,924
you know, while there may be a technical

880
00:32:23,924 --> 00:32:26,724
potential for, let's just say, 75%

881
00:32:26,724 --> 00:32:28,884
energy savings, which is what I stipulated in

882
00:32:28,884 --> 00:32:30,664
02/2012 in the first paper,

883
00:32:31,765 --> 00:32:33,065
no one who

884
00:32:33,684 --> 00:32:34,825
is trying to earn

885
00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:37,319
a profit, you know, who has investors

886
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:39,460
is gonna ever be able to get anywhere

887
00:32:39,460 --> 00:32:40,200
near that.

888
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:42,200
And so and then with solar,

889
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:45,700
the problem is that the land use becomes

890
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:46,200
untenable.

891
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:48,679
I'm doing analysis now.

892
00:32:49,154 --> 00:32:51,174
It's looking like cannabis facilities

893
00:32:51,795 --> 00:32:53,494
depending on climate and

894
00:32:54,755 --> 00:32:55,234
location

895
00:32:55,715 --> 00:32:58,035
sorry, climate and facility type. And like you

896
00:32:58,035 --> 00:32:59,634
said, you know, people wanna grow in harsh

897
00:32:59,634 --> 00:33:00,134
climates,

898
00:33:00,595 --> 00:33:02,535
right, because they wanna grow in their state

899
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:04,539
or in their town. So it can be

900
00:33:04,539 --> 00:33:06,700
as bad or even worse than a hundred

901
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,799
times the roof area in solar.

902
00:33:09,339 --> 00:33:11,259
And, you know, the best I've seen are

903
00:33:11,259 --> 00:33:13,259
like 20 times the roof area or maybe

904
00:33:13,259 --> 00:33:15,420
10 times the roof area. And so all

905
00:33:15,420 --> 00:33:16,160
of a sudden,

906
00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:17,759
you're using more land

907
00:33:18,855 --> 00:33:21,095
than you would be with outdoor cultivation. And

908
00:33:21,095 --> 00:33:23,894
and land sparing or land savings is one

909
00:33:23,894 --> 00:33:24,394
of

910
00:33:25,095 --> 00:33:25,755
the top,

911
00:33:26,214 --> 00:33:28,855
you know, arguments that are used for, indoor

912
00:33:28,855 --> 00:33:30,474
agriculture more more generally.

913
00:33:30,775 --> 00:33:32,375
So there are these kind of real world

914
00:33:32,375 --> 00:33:32,875
inconvenient,

915
00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:35,420
you know, constraints around it. And meanwhile, the

916
00:33:35,420 --> 00:33:38,140
industry is opposing not opposing, that's not fair,

917
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:40,480
but, you know, like the California Energy Commission

918
00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:41,920
was putting out

919
00:33:42,460 --> 00:33:45,519
public comment requests for energy efficiency standards

920
00:33:46,184 --> 00:33:48,424
on indoor grows. And the industry comes out

921
00:33:48,424 --> 00:33:50,444
of the woodwork with all kinds of opposition

922
00:33:50,585 --> 00:33:52,664
to it, you know. And and the uptake

923
00:33:52,664 --> 00:33:54,345
of LED is still pretty low, to be

924
00:33:54,345 --> 00:33:56,444
honest, you know, in the market. And so

925
00:33:56,744 --> 00:33:56,984
it's,

926
00:33:57,944 --> 00:33:59,384
it's hard. You know, it's gotta be done

927
00:33:59,384 --> 00:34:01,899
willingly or ideally it's done willingly. And if

928
00:34:01,899 --> 00:34:04,220
it's not done willingly, then the regulators come

929
00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:06,619
in. And people don't want any more regulation

930
00:34:06,619 --> 00:34:08,139
on cannabis, but they won't do it on

931
00:34:08,139 --> 00:34:10,319
their own enough, you know.

932
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:12,239
So it's it's rough.

933
00:34:12,984 --> 00:34:14,764
And so I use the the term,

934
00:34:15,465 --> 00:34:18,425
optimizing the suboptimal. Yes, you can optimize these

935
00:34:18,425 --> 00:34:20,344
things. You can do better. And and Lord

936
00:34:20,344 --> 00:34:22,025
knows people are. I mean, I'm not here

937
00:34:22,025 --> 00:34:23,704
to criticize and say the industry is not

938
00:34:23,704 --> 00:34:26,760
doing anything. The LED look, their heat pumps

939
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,660
are coming in.

940
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,440
People are, you know, trying to use AI

941
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,739
and things to optimize

942
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:33,099
water application,

943
00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:36,760
minimize water use, and therefore, pumping energy. So

944
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,300
their efforts are being made,

945
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:39,660
but it's just,

946
00:34:40,684 --> 00:34:43,324
you're not getting that far. And, so we're

947
00:34:43,324 --> 00:34:45,985
optimizing the the suboptimal. It's so much more

948
00:34:46,204 --> 00:34:49,184
elegant technologically and economically to grow outdoors,

949
00:34:50,125 --> 00:34:52,204
if you can address the quality issue and

950
00:34:52,204 --> 00:34:54,204
and still do that sustainably because there's plenty

951
00:34:54,204 --> 00:34:54,864
of inputs,

952
00:34:55,359 --> 00:34:57,679
you know, to outdoor cultivation. Alright. So hold

953
00:34:57,679 --> 00:34:58,960
on up on that because I'm gonna pick

954
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,039
up on inputs in the second set. But

955
00:35:01,039 --> 00:35:03,039
but I I want you to follow-up on

956
00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:04,719
one thing before we go to commercial, which

957
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:05,219
is,

958
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,914
earlier in the set, I I said, okay.

959
00:35:07,914 --> 00:35:09,514
If we if we do if we change

960
00:35:09,514 --> 00:35:10,494
everything to

961
00:35:10,795 --> 00:35:13,194
the energy efficient version, will it move the

962
00:35:13,194 --> 00:35:13,694
needle?

963
00:35:14,074 --> 00:35:16,714
And and and and and is is the

964
00:35:16,714 --> 00:35:17,214
technology

965
00:35:17,755 --> 00:35:19,320
in LED just not

966
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,719
up to the standard yet, and we're about

967
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,559
to. So we can just research our way

968
00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:25,640
out of this. I have the same question

969
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,500
about the solar panels because,

970
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:31,160
solar has always been one of my things

971
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,664
that will save indoors in my head. Right?

972
00:35:33,885 --> 00:35:34,385
Without

973
00:35:34,925 --> 00:35:36,864
being a solar nerd. Just

974
00:35:37,164 --> 00:35:38,785
hoping hoping that to be the case.

975
00:35:39,085 --> 00:35:39,485
And,

976
00:35:39,965 --> 00:35:41,425
do we see technological

977
00:35:41,965 --> 00:35:42,465
advances

978
00:35:43,644 --> 00:35:46,219
that are coming down the pipe in research

979
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000
that might be able to increase our efficiency

980
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,739
so it wouldn't take 20 to 30 x

981
00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:55,160
the the roof space in solar panels to

982
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,300
feed a cultivation

983
00:35:56,679 --> 00:35:57,179
center?

984
00:35:57,554 --> 00:35:58,775
Or or are

985
00:35:59,074 --> 00:36:00,194
are are are we not,

986
00:36:00,675 --> 00:36:03,175
foreseeing that in any kind of immediate future?

987
00:36:04,355 --> 00:36:06,194
Yeah. I don't not in our lifetimes and

988
00:36:06,194 --> 00:36:07,954
not not even in a longer time frame.

989
00:36:07,954 --> 00:36:10,034
Not not sufficient at all. I mean, LED

990
00:36:10,034 --> 00:36:11,335
is incredibly efficient.

991
00:36:11,699 --> 00:36:13,300
Yeah. They're still working on it. I mean,

992
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:15,719
solar is incredibly efficient. The best panels are,

993
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:17,719
you know, there's been huge progress.

994
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:20,500
It'll continue, but it's not it's not of

995
00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:21,480
this the magnitude

996
00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:23,539
that you need. You know, you've got factors

997
00:36:23,539 --> 00:36:26,045
of 10 and factors of a hundred improvements

998
00:36:26,105 --> 00:36:27,465
you need here. I think there are other

999
00:36:27,465 --> 00:36:29,804
domains like strain. See, there I go.

1000
00:36:30,105 --> 00:36:30,605
Genetics,

1001
00:36:30,984 --> 00:36:31,484
cultivar,

1002
00:36:32,344 --> 00:36:34,984
huge differences. You know, actually, that figure five

1003
00:36:34,984 --> 00:36:36,525
in the paper shows just

1004
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,739
at the energy use for different cultivars,

1005
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:40,880
and that's an area where you might get

1006
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,019
50% savings

1007
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,519
or 50% increase, you know, depending Sure. Where

1008
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:47,760
you're moving between. So, you know, there there's

1009
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,864
also a broader array of possible, things to

1010
00:36:50,864 --> 00:36:53,344
do rather than changing one widget for another,

1011
00:36:53,344 --> 00:36:55,445
you know, in your growing process. Mhmm.

1012
00:36:55,905 --> 00:36:57,184
That that's something to,

1013
00:36:57,664 --> 00:37:00,625
you know, to to look at. Excellent. Alright.

1014
00:37:00,625 --> 00:37:02,545
So let's go ahead and take a short

1015
00:37:02,545 --> 00:37:04,420
break, and we'll be right back. You are

1016
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:06,659
listening to Shaping Fire, and my guest today

1017
00:37:06,659 --> 00:37:10,039
is energy and environmental systems analyst, Evan Mills.

1018
00:37:12,659 --> 00:37:14,579
You've heard me talk about the award winning

1019
00:37:14,579 --> 00:37:16,900
cannabis seeds that come from the analytical breeding

1020
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:19,460
program of Seth and Eric Crawford who founded

1021
00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:22,474
Oregon CBD Seeds. In fact, Seth was a

1022
00:37:22,474 --> 00:37:24,735
guest on Shaping Fire in 2020

1023
00:37:24,875 --> 00:37:26,575
to talk about triploid genetics.

1024
00:37:27,434 --> 00:37:29,934
Seth and Eric are now releasing high THC

1025
00:37:30,155 --> 00:37:32,809
seeds for home growers and farms as Grow

1026
00:37:32,809 --> 00:37:33,469
The Revolution

1027
00:37:34,010 --> 00:37:36,670
seeds at gtrseeds.com.

1028
00:37:37,369 --> 00:37:39,710
Their high THC seeds are extraordinary

1029
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:42,250
in that they will start to flower at

1030
00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:44,190
sixteen and a half hours of daylight

1031
00:37:44,534 --> 00:37:46,614
instead of the typical fourteen and a half

1032
00:37:46,614 --> 00:37:47,434
hours of daylight.

1033
00:37:47,894 --> 00:37:49,434
That means in most regions,

1034
00:37:49,734 --> 00:37:52,054
your plants will start to flower outdoors in

1035
00:37:52,054 --> 00:37:53,114
the July

1036
00:37:53,494 --> 00:37:55,194
instead of the August,

1037
00:37:55,335 --> 00:37:58,315
which means these photoperiod plants finish in September

1038
00:37:58,614 --> 00:37:59,594
and not October,

1039
00:38:00,289 --> 00:38:02,869
totally upending the photoperiod seed market.

1040
00:38:03,489 --> 00:38:06,210
Seth and Eric took their prized early flowering

1041
00:38:06,210 --> 00:38:08,530
CBG line and bred it to some of

1042
00:38:08,530 --> 00:38:12,070
the most desired verified genetics out there, including

1043
00:38:12,130 --> 00:38:12,630
sourdiesel,

1044
00:38:12,929 --> 00:38:16,635
triangle cush, wedding cake, Chemdog, Skittles and others.

1045
00:38:17,094 --> 00:38:20,795
These crosses all express powerful photoperiod terpene profiles

1046
00:38:20,855 --> 00:38:21,594
and THC,

1047
00:38:22,054 --> 00:38:23,434
giving you a great high.

1048
00:38:24,054 --> 00:38:27,269
GTR Seeds has a new THC V line

1049
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:29,610
with plants like Double Durban and Gigantor

1050
00:38:29,989 --> 00:38:33,050
that boast one to one THC to THCV.

1051
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:35,210
And people want that THCV.

1052
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:38,570
GTR Seeds are very consistent,

1053
00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:42,215
true growing inbred F ones from stabilized

1054
00:38:42,595 --> 00:38:43,894
inbred parent lines.

1055
00:38:44,275 --> 00:38:46,215
These seeds are nearly homogeneous,

1056
00:38:46,595 --> 00:38:48,775
and the plants should all grow the same.

1057
00:38:48,994 --> 00:38:51,815
There is only one phenotype in every pack,

1058
00:38:51,954 --> 00:38:53,894
available as diploids and triploids.

1059
00:38:54,659 --> 00:38:57,159
Seth and Eric's company is still family owned,

1060
00:38:57,299 --> 00:39:00,019
patient and employee centric, and partially powered by

1061
00:39:00,019 --> 00:39:01,799
their two acres of solar panels.

1062
00:39:02,339 --> 00:39:04,739
Everyone can purchase these seeds and the entire

1063
00:39:04,739 --> 00:39:09,715
catalog of Oregon CBD seeds at gtrseeds.com.

1064
00:39:09,855 --> 00:39:11,775
Go to gtrseeds.com

1065
00:39:11,775 --> 00:39:13,715
today and choose something revolutionary

1066
00:39:14,015 --> 00:39:16,195
for your next indoor or outdoor run.

1067
00:39:18,974 --> 00:39:21,535
Revenue is tight for cannabis businesses right now.

1068
00:39:21,535 --> 00:39:23,829
There is no question about it. And when

1069
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:24,730
revenue tightens,

1070
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:27,530
businesses need to spend smarter on advertising.

1071
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:30,710
Instead of throwing obscene money at hanging your

1072
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:32,949
company's logo from the rafters at your next

1073
00:39:32,949 --> 00:39:33,449
convention,

1074
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:36,889
perhaps consider placing commercials on shaping fire.

1075
00:39:37,324 --> 00:39:39,264
And if you are a very small business,

1076
00:39:39,484 --> 00:39:41,324
there is simply no better bang for your

1077
00:39:41,324 --> 00:39:43,424
buck than commercials on Shaping Fire,

1078
00:39:43,804 --> 00:39:46,364
especially if your products are for regeneratively minded

1079
00:39:46,364 --> 00:39:46,864
cultivators.

1080
00:39:48,204 --> 00:39:50,605
Advertising on this show allows us time to

1081
00:39:50,605 --> 00:39:53,200
talk about your product, service, or brand in

1082
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,960
a way that really lets people know what

1083
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,900
sets your company apart from the others.

1084
00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,160
Bold people who own companies know that getting

1085
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,739
into relationship with their customers is essential.

1086
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,500
That is what we offer.

1087
00:40:05,135 --> 00:40:07,614
We will explain your service or product, what

1088
00:40:07,614 --> 00:40:10,094
sets it apart as desirable, and help our

1089
00:40:10,094 --> 00:40:12,574
audience get in contact with you. It's pretty

1090
00:40:12,574 --> 00:40:15,054
simple really. Advertising does not have to be

1091
00:40:15,054 --> 00:40:16,835
all whiz bang, smoke, and mirrors.

1092
00:40:17,429 --> 00:40:19,589
Nowadays, I find that people prefer just to

1093
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:20,889
be spoken to calmly,

1094
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:23,289
accurately, and with good intentions.

1095
00:40:23,989 --> 00:40:25,510
If you want to make your own commercial

1096
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:26,969
spot, you can do that too.

1097
00:40:27,429 --> 00:40:29,750
With a commercial on shaping fire, you'll reach

1098
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:31,929
your customers in the privacy of their headphones

1099
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:34,545
right now and will continue to reach new

1100
00:40:34,545 --> 00:40:36,784
listeners as they explore the Shaping Fire back

1101
00:40:36,784 --> 00:40:40,005
catalog of episodes again and again for years.

1102
00:40:40,784 --> 00:40:43,184
A spot on Shaping Fire costs less than

1103
00:40:43,184 --> 00:40:45,824
a postcard per person, and the Shaping Fire

1104
00:40:45,824 --> 00:40:48,244
audience is full of smart cannabis enthusiasts,

1105
00:40:48,890 --> 00:40:51,690
cultivators, and entrepreneurs who are always curious to

1106
00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:52,190
learn.

1107
00:40:52,650 --> 00:40:54,489
And right now in the new year, we

1108
00:40:54,489 --> 00:40:56,410
are booking the few open spots we have

1109
00:40:56,410 --> 00:40:58,349
for the rest of 2024.

1110
00:40:58,570 --> 00:40:59,769
I'd love for you to be one of

1111
00:40:59,769 --> 00:41:00,590
our new advertisers.

1112
00:41:01,574 --> 00:41:04,215
Do yourself a solid and contact us today

1113
00:41:04,215 --> 00:41:06,875
for rates on podcast and Instagram advertising.

1114
00:41:07,574 --> 00:41:08,074
Email

1115
00:41:08,375 --> 00:41:10,775
hotspot@shapingfire.com

1116
00:41:10,775 --> 00:41:11,835
to find out more.

1117
00:41:15,050 --> 00:41:17,369
This message is for folks who grow cannabis.

1118
00:41:17,369 --> 00:41:19,849
I'm talking to home growers, patients, and commercial

1119
00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:22,889
growers too. I'm probably talking to you. When

1120
00:41:22,889 --> 00:41:24,889
you plan out your next growing cycle, be

1121
00:41:24,889 --> 00:41:26,989
sure to check out Humboldt CSI

1122
00:41:27,289 --> 00:41:30,110
seeds at humboldtcsi.com.

1123
00:41:30,434 --> 00:41:32,675
Caleb Inspecta and his family have lived in

1124
00:41:32,675 --> 00:41:35,074
Humboldt County for over a hundred years. For

1125
00:41:35,074 --> 00:41:37,474
the last forty years, three generations of his

1126
00:41:37,474 --> 00:41:39,255
family have cultivated extraordinary

1127
00:41:39,555 --> 00:41:42,195
sense of mia cannabis in Humboldt, Mendocino, and

1128
00:41:42,195 --> 00:41:43,175
Trinity Counties.

1129
00:41:43,849 --> 00:41:46,250
Because of his lineage and the hard earned

1130
00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:49,050
experience that comes from growing up smoking and

1131
00:41:49,050 --> 00:41:51,690
sifting large populations of cannabis plants in Northern

1132
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:52,190
California,

1133
00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:54,890
the seeds you'll cop from CSI will be

1134
00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:55,789
winning genetics

1135
00:41:56,164 --> 00:41:58,905
based on long time heavy hitters and updated

1136
00:41:58,965 --> 00:42:01,125
and resifted to bring out new and exotic

1137
00:42:01,125 --> 00:42:02,505
traits and better yields.

1138
00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:05,445
Go ahead and ask around. Caleb, also known

1139
00:42:05,445 --> 00:42:08,085
as Inspecta and Pirates of the Emerald Triangle

1140
00:42:08,085 --> 00:42:10,780
is a breeder's breeder. He reaches way back

1141
00:42:10,780 --> 00:42:12,559
and works with significant strains,

1142
00:42:12,859 --> 00:42:15,179
recreating them in new and interesting ways that

1143
00:42:15,179 --> 00:42:17,519
you'll love as a toker and a grower,

1144
00:42:17,659 --> 00:42:19,739
as well as offering you some surprises that

1145
00:42:19,739 --> 00:42:22,159
will delight serious seed traders and cultivators.

1146
00:42:23,214 --> 00:42:26,275
Humboldt CSI goes a further step and selfs

1147
00:42:26,335 --> 00:42:28,655
all these chemovars so you know all the

1148
00:42:28,655 --> 00:42:31,394
seeds will be female. These are not experimental

1149
00:42:31,694 --> 00:42:32,755
feminized seeds.

1150
00:42:33,054 --> 00:42:35,775
Humboldt CSI releases some of the best female

1151
00:42:35,775 --> 00:42:38,239
seeds available anywhere and it will show in

1152
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:38,900
your garden.

1153
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:41,679
Folks grew quite a bit of CSI Humboldt

1154
00:42:41,679 --> 00:42:43,760
Gen X last year here on Vashon Island

1155
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,900
and everyone was pleased. The patients had beautiful

1156
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,199
female plants and didn't have to cull half

1157
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:51,914
of their garden as males. The folks growing

1158
00:42:51,914 --> 00:42:54,335
for the fun of getting high grew colorful

1159
00:42:54,394 --> 00:42:57,295
flowers with exceptional bag appeal and great highs.

1160
00:42:57,515 --> 00:43:00,155
And breeders had seven out of seven females

1161
00:43:00,155 --> 00:43:01,755
in a pack which gave them a lot

1162
00:43:01,755 --> 00:43:03,135
of phenotypic choices.

1163
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,320
Take a moment right now and visit humboldtcsi.com.

1164
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,000
You'll find an up to date menu of

1165
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,039
both feminized and regular lines along with photos

1166
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:13,700
and descriptions.

1167
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:17,300
That's humboldtcsi.com.

1168
00:43:18,994 --> 00:43:21,075
Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.

1169
00:43:21,075 --> 00:43:23,075
I am your host, Shango Los. And my

1170
00:43:23,075 --> 00:43:25,974
guest today is energy and environmental systems analyst,

1171
00:43:26,035 --> 00:43:26,855
Evan Mills.

1172
00:43:27,394 --> 00:43:28,994
So at the end of the last set,

1173
00:43:28,994 --> 00:43:30,375
we were talking about

1174
00:43:31,150 --> 00:43:34,849
the, all the different places that energy usage

1175
00:43:35,150 --> 00:43:37,630
can be tamped down or stopped in an

1176
00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:39,250
indoor cultivation environment.

1177
00:43:39,949 --> 00:43:40,449
And,

1178
00:43:41,150 --> 00:43:43,150
you know, I have heard people push back

1179
00:43:43,150 --> 00:43:44,610
before Evan and say,

1180
00:43:44,985 --> 00:43:47,485
we love cannabis. It makes life livable.

1181
00:43:48,105 --> 00:43:49,405
Why are you

1182
00:43:49,785 --> 00:43:50,285
harassing

1183
00:43:50,744 --> 00:43:51,724
cannabis cultivation

1184
00:43:52,025 --> 00:43:54,125
when there are so many other things,

1185
00:43:54,985 --> 00:43:57,349
that we should be harping on? And I

1186
00:43:57,349 --> 00:44:00,070
I know there's a logical fallacy there because

1187
00:44:00,070 --> 00:44:01,510
the fact the fact that we should be

1188
00:44:01,510 --> 00:44:04,170
doing something about energy in a different sector

1189
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:06,329
doesn't really say anything about

1190
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:08,869
not doing it in our sector, except for

1191
00:44:08,869 --> 00:44:11,094
the fact that we all love cannabis. Right?

1192
00:44:11,954 --> 00:44:13,635
But I'm heard I bet you've heard this

1193
00:44:13,635 --> 00:44:14,914
quite a bit. And and what do you

1194
00:44:14,914 --> 00:44:16,775
say when people push back like that?

1195
00:44:18,355 --> 00:44:20,994
Yeah. I I say that that it's and

1196
00:44:20,994 --> 00:44:23,054
and not or. You know, we

1197
00:44:23,394 --> 00:44:25,889
just like you, there's 20 ways to save

1198
00:44:25,889 --> 00:44:27,650
energy in a house. There's also 20 ways

1199
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:29,569
to save energy in an economy or on

1200
00:44:29,569 --> 00:44:31,569
a planet. And we need, you know, we

1201
00:44:31,569 --> 00:44:32,309
need to reduce

1202
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:35,250
carbon dioxide emissions by 90%

1203
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:36,469
or more on this planet

1204
00:44:36,929 --> 00:44:39,385
to save ourselves, you know. And you can't

1205
00:44:39,385 --> 00:44:40,744
do that with one thing. You can't do

1206
00:44:40,744 --> 00:44:43,224
that just going after cars or steel making.

1207
00:44:43,224 --> 00:44:44,845
You know, it's just it's gotta be

1208
00:44:45,224 --> 00:44:48,345
it's gotta be taking every opportunity. And the,

1209
00:44:48,345 --> 00:44:50,505
you know, the dirty secret is that cannabis

1210
00:44:50,505 --> 00:44:53,385
is actually benefiting from a double standard, you

1211
00:44:53,385 --> 00:44:55,469
know. It's it's arguably one of the last

1212
00:44:55,469 --> 00:44:55,969
industries

1213
00:44:56,510 --> 00:44:57,170
to come

1214
00:44:57,550 --> 00:45:01,390
to energy efficiency and sustainable energy because, you

1215
00:45:01,390 --> 00:45:04,449
know, by virtue of the illicit market history,

1216
00:45:04,829 --> 00:45:05,890
it hasn't been,

1217
00:45:06,429 --> 00:45:09,704
exposed to or eligible for, you know, energy

1218
00:45:09,704 --> 00:45:13,005
tax credits or energy education even or utility

1219
00:45:13,065 --> 00:45:13,565
rebates,

1220
00:45:14,425 --> 00:45:16,905
and the, you know, the stealthy nature of

1221
00:45:16,905 --> 00:45:19,005
it, you know, and the low capitalization

1222
00:45:19,865 --> 00:45:21,945
doesn't provide the money to invest. You know,

1223
00:45:21,945 --> 00:45:23,880
those days are gone. And, you know, in

1224
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,839
California where I live excuse me. In California

1225
00:45:26,839 --> 00:45:29,319
where I live, it's, you know, it's been

1226
00:45:29,319 --> 00:45:31,239
a quarter of a century since we've had,

1227
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,039
you know, legal medical and since cultivation's been

1228
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:35,894
done legally. We've had a lot of time.

1229
00:45:35,974 --> 00:45:37,494
The industry's had a lot of time to

1230
00:45:37,494 --> 00:45:40,135
figure out how to do this well. So,

1231
00:45:40,614 --> 00:45:42,375
I don't know if that that helps, but

1232
00:45:42,375 --> 00:45:44,375
those are those are some thoughts. I think

1233
00:45:44,375 --> 00:45:47,094
it also matters in aggregate, you know. If

1234
00:45:47,094 --> 00:45:49,114
this was a tiny tiny amount of energy,

1235
00:45:49,335 --> 00:45:50,554
tiny tiny, then,

1236
00:45:50,889 --> 00:45:52,409
yeah. Okay. Yeah. Why it shouldn't be a

1237
00:45:52,409 --> 00:45:54,489
priority. I mean, we only got limited time,

1238
00:45:54,489 --> 00:45:56,809
limited money. But it's really stunning how how

1239
00:45:56,809 --> 00:45:58,429
big it is and how big it's become.

1240
00:45:58,730 --> 00:45:59,469
In my

1241
00:46:00,090 --> 00:46:01,530
since my 02/2012

1242
00:46:01,530 --> 00:46:02,030
study,

1243
00:46:02,489 --> 00:46:04,809
the consumption of cannabis in The United States

1244
00:46:04,809 --> 00:46:05,550
has tripled.

1245
00:46:06,295 --> 00:46:08,454
So the cultivation has tripled. It's even more

1246
00:46:08,454 --> 00:46:09,114
than tripled

1247
00:46:09,494 --> 00:46:12,695
for subtle reasons. But the so the the

1248
00:46:12,695 --> 00:46:14,695
energy use now because I in the paper,

1249
00:46:14,695 --> 00:46:16,614
you know, I look at the per square

1250
00:46:16,614 --> 00:46:18,695
foot or per kilogram more importantly, you know,

1251
00:46:18,695 --> 00:46:20,454
energies, but I also look at the macro,

1252
00:46:20,454 --> 00:46:23,320
the national level. And the carbon footprint now

1253
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:23,820
today,

1254
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:26,359
even including all these uses that I've left

1255
00:46:26,359 --> 00:46:26,859
out,

1256
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,239
is equal to that of 6,000,000

1257
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,179
homes, 6,000,000 average American homes, 10,000,000 average American

1258
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:33,820
cars.

1259
00:46:34,359 --> 00:46:35,739
It's more than than

1260
00:46:36,855 --> 00:46:37,355
crypto

1261
00:46:37,974 --> 00:46:41,094
mining. Wow. It's four times. I mean, I

1262
00:46:41,094 --> 00:46:43,014
was It's crazy. I think that's more than

1263
00:46:43,014 --> 00:46:45,655
crypto mining because it is hearing about crypto

1264
00:46:45,655 --> 00:46:46,054
mining,

1265
00:46:46,454 --> 00:46:48,534
inputs and and and and our cannabis is

1266
00:46:48,534 --> 00:46:49,894
more. And and so that's part of that

1267
00:46:49,894 --> 00:46:52,839
double standard. It it's gotten less attention than

1268
00:46:52,839 --> 00:46:55,559
it merits, not more I would argue. And

1269
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:57,339
the other thing that was stunning is that

1270
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,559
it's four times the energy use of the

1271
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:01,659
pharmaceutical and medicine manufacturing

1272
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:02,460
sector.

1273
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:04,219
And so

1274
00:47:04,574 --> 00:47:06,815
putting all other commentary and things aside as

1275
00:47:06,815 --> 00:47:07,474
a medicine,

1276
00:47:08,574 --> 00:47:09,394
you you know,

1277
00:47:09,934 --> 00:47:12,014
that needs to be owned. Mhmm. You know,

1278
00:47:12,014 --> 00:47:13,295
that needs to be owned. It's four times

1279
00:47:13,295 --> 00:47:14,275
the food and beverage

1280
00:47:14,574 --> 00:47:17,775
industry, which manufacturing, these are national statistics from

1281
00:47:17,775 --> 00:47:18,994
the US Department of Energy,

1282
00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:21,579
and that includes beer and wine production, food

1283
00:47:21,579 --> 00:47:22,239
and beverage.

1284
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:24,780
And it's the same as this one is

1285
00:47:24,780 --> 00:47:27,179
stunning. Like, it's the same as all other

1286
00:47:27,179 --> 00:47:28,800
outdoor food crop production.

1287
00:47:30,460 --> 00:47:32,400
How can that be? Wait. All wait.

1288
00:47:33,105 --> 00:47:35,425
It is equal to all of the food

1289
00:47:35,425 --> 00:47:37,065
crop production in The United States? All of

1290
00:47:37,065 --> 00:47:37,605
it? Yeah.

1291
00:47:38,385 --> 00:47:39,445
That's an absurd

1292
00:47:40,625 --> 00:47:43,585
comparison. Because that's that's outdoors. I mean, only

1293
00:47:43,585 --> 00:47:46,005
1% of the cannabis carbon footprint

1294
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:47,780
is due

1295
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:49,780
to outdoor cannabis cultivation.

1296
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:51,840
Right? So it's the indoor I mean, I'm

1297
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,239
doing my next paper's on indoor growing of

1298
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,079
cucumbers and tomatoes and lettuce and all the

1299
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:57,760
other food props. They're a problem too. Not

1300
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,140
nearly as bad as cannabis,

1301
00:47:59,474 --> 00:48:02,035
but they're, you know, hundreds of times more

1302
00:48:02,035 --> 00:48:04,695
energy than outdoor lettuce production, outdoor

1303
00:48:04,994 --> 00:48:06,835
tomatoes, and so on. So it's just the

1304
00:48:06,835 --> 00:48:08,775
energy intensity is so extraordinary.

1305
00:48:09,075 --> 00:48:11,735
And outdoor cultivation, you know, it uses relatively

1306
00:48:11,795 --> 00:48:13,555
little energy per acre. I mean, you've got

1307
00:48:13,555 --> 00:48:15,730
your tractors and your water pumps, and a

1308
00:48:15,730 --> 00:48:17,969
lot of food doesn't require, you know, drying

1309
00:48:17,969 --> 00:48:19,730
or curing and, you know, there's lots of

1310
00:48:19,730 --> 00:48:20,950
reasons why that is.

1311
00:48:21,730 --> 00:48:24,690
But cannabis is 300 times at least as

1312
00:48:24,690 --> 00:48:26,930
much energy as indoor lettuce is. So it's

1313
00:48:26,930 --> 00:48:28,230
just a lot more

1314
00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:29,430
energy intensive.

1315
00:48:30,114 --> 00:48:31,315
And, you know, and then for the those

1316
00:48:31,315 --> 00:48:33,235
are big, like, abstract numbers. I mean, they're

1317
00:48:33,235 --> 00:48:35,795
helpful because they're in context. I think the

1318
00:48:35,795 --> 00:48:38,594
comparisons actually help more. Yeah. They do. So

1319
00:48:38,594 --> 00:48:41,715
then the like, to to thicken that broth,

1320
00:48:41,715 --> 00:48:43,779
I also look at just to help this

1321
00:48:43,779 --> 00:48:46,119
be accessible, you know, or put in perspective.

1322
00:48:46,819 --> 00:48:48,980
What about from the consumer perspective? I mentioned

1323
00:48:48,980 --> 00:48:50,819
a little bit before about cars and driving.

1324
00:48:50,819 --> 00:48:52,900
Here's another one. If you look at the,

1325
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:54,900
you know, different tiers of consumers, obviously. So

1326
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:57,059
you look at the daily or near daily

1327
00:48:57,059 --> 00:48:59,324
user, which is, like, I don't know, 15,000,000

1328
00:48:59,324 --> 00:49:00,784
people or something in The States.

1329
00:49:02,764 --> 00:49:05,644
Their carbon footprint, if they consume just indoor

1330
00:49:05,644 --> 00:49:08,284
grown at average US conditions, outdoor grown, it's

1331
00:49:08,284 --> 00:49:11,005
a different story, they consumed indoor grown, their

1332
00:49:11,005 --> 00:49:13,585
carbon footprint from their cannabis consumption

1333
00:49:14,429 --> 00:49:16,429
is half of the carbon footprint of their

1334
00:49:16,429 --> 00:49:17,409
entire home,

1335
00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:19,949
meaning their fridge, their cooking, their heating, and

1336
00:49:19,949 --> 00:49:22,289
their cooling in average US conditions.

1337
00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:25,170
It's like three cross country road trips

1338
00:49:25,869 --> 00:49:27,789
per year in a in a plug in

1339
00:49:27,789 --> 00:49:28,289
hybrid.

1340
00:49:29,005 --> 00:49:30,625
It's like a %

1341
00:49:31,085 --> 00:49:33,244
of their annual food consumption. So if you

1342
00:49:33,244 --> 00:49:35,244
look at the energy footprint in their other

1343
00:49:35,244 --> 00:49:36,784
food, including meat eaters,

1344
00:49:37,164 --> 00:49:40,045
it's roughly on par with the carbon footprint

1345
00:49:40,045 --> 00:49:42,364
of their food consumption. And we're just talking

1346
00:49:42,364 --> 00:49:44,170
about, you know, a couple of grams, few

1347
00:49:44,170 --> 00:49:46,030
grams, whatever a day of of cannabis.

1348
00:49:46,489 --> 00:49:47,930
And it's not much better if you're a

1349
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:48,430
healthy,

1350
00:49:49,610 --> 00:49:51,769
healthy vegan or vegetarian, but it's, you know,

1351
00:49:51,769 --> 00:49:54,030
the the difference is is even greater. Mhmm.

1352
00:49:54,090 --> 00:49:54,590
So

1353
00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:57,135
it's just it matters, you know. And and

1354
00:49:57,135 --> 00:49:57,775
we can't

1355
00:49:58,175 --> 00:50:00,015
we have to do everything. It's an all

1356
00:50:00,015 --> 00:50:02,494
hands on deck climate emergency, you know. And

1357
00:50:02,494 --> 00:50:04,175
so we just need to look at everything

1358
00:50:04,175 --> 00:50:04,675
and

1359
00:50:05,054 --> 00:50:07,775
it's not, you know, blaming and making bad.

1360
00:50:07,775 --> 00:50:09,054
It's, you know, more in the spirit of

1361
00:50:09,054 --> 00:50:10,335
what you were saying before. How do we

1362
00:50:10,335 --> 00:50:11,954
do better? What where are the inefficiencies?

1363
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:14,650
And where where can we be more,

1364
00:50:15,210 --> 00:50:17,210
you know, have a a lower smaller footprint

1365
00:50:17,210 --> 00:50:18,590
in in this industry?

1366
00:50:19,369 --> 00:50:20,269
I wanna pivot,

1367
00:50:20,650 --> 00:50:23,369
a bit until to to start talking about

1368
00:50:23,369 --> 00:50:24,190
post harvest,

1369
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:27,405
because like you said, we could spend hours

1370
00:50:27,724 --> 00:50:30,765
going through a detailed checklist of all of

1371
00:50:30,765 --> 00:50:31,505
the different,

1372
00:50:32,525 --> 00:50:33,585
parts of cultivation

1373
00:50:33,885 --> 00:50:34,605
where we could,

1374
00:50:36,364 --> 00:50:39,025
strategize differently or use different technology.

1375
00:50:39,644 --> 00:50:39,965
But,

1376
00:50:40,525 --> 00:50:42,829
it's it's it's arguably just as ugly

1377
00:50:43,289 --> 00:50:43,789
after,

1378
00:50:44,730 --> 00:50:45,389
the flower

1379
00:50:45,690 --> 00:50:47,769
has been dried and cured and is on

1380
00:50:47,769 --> 00:50:50,409
its way out the door too. Mhmm. One

1381
00:50:50,409 --> 00:50:52,049
of the things that, you know, I'm not

1382
00:50:52,089 --> 00:50:53,369
it's not like I'm the only one, but

1383
00:50:53,369 --> 00:50:55,289
but but one of my big pet peeves

1384
00:50:55,289 --> 00:50:56,029
are duvetubes.

1385
00:50:56,974 --> 00:50:58,974
And the the idea that we're we're, you

1386
00:50:58,974 --> 00:51:02,035
know, creating all these plastics and future microplastics,

1387
00:51:03,054 --> 00:51:04,414
and and then if it's a it's a

1388
00:51:04,414 --> 00:51:07,315
if it's a really high end, maybe a

1389
00:51:07,454 --> 00:51:09,394
a hash infused or something,

1390
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,980
pre roll or Kanagar,

1391
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,519
then then they're adding extra stuff. Like, they're

1392
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:17,699
they're adding plastic based sticker,

1393
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,539
and then, like, some kind of,

1394
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:22,660
like, cool seal,

1395
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:24,880
and and then maybe even a box around

1396
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,019
the outside. Right?

1397
00:51:26,474 --> 00:51:29,114
And and and it's like, there's only, you

1398
00:51:29,114 --> 00:51:30,635
know, there's only a gram or two of

1399
00:51:30,635 --> 00:51:33,275
weed inside that joint, and there's all this

1400
00:51:33,275 --> 00:51:33,775
packaging

1401
00:51:34,315 --> 00:51:36,815
to give it vibe so that it sells.

1402
00:51:37,355 --> 00:51:40,650
And, I I imagine that the packaging is

1403
00:51:41,130 --> 00:51:42,670
just ugly in the numbers.

1404
00:51:43,609 --> 00:51:45,449
Yeah. There isn't a new paper I know

1405
00:51:45,449 --> 00:51:48,250
out about that in in particular, and it's

1406
00:51:48,489 --> 00:51:49,929
you know, I looked at the solid waste

1407
00:51:49,929 --> 00:51:51,289
streams. I mean, a lot of that is

1408
00:51:51,289 --> 00:51:53,755
is just plant residue, but it's also, you

1409
00:51:53,755 --> 00:51:56,315
know, spent mineral wool, and it's the plastics

1410
00:51:56,315 --> 00:51:58,394
for the cultivation. And it was, like, I

1411
00:51:58,394 --> 00:52:00,795
think, 15 times the weight of the flower

1412
00:52:00,795 --> 00:52:03,295
or something, and just that solid waste part.

1413
00:52:03,594 --> 00:52:04,255
You mentioned

1414
00:52:04,715 --> 00:52:06,875
vape cartridges and the like. And, you know,

1415
00:52:06,875 --> 00:52:07,855
one thing that's

1416
00:52:08,579 --> 00:52:11,559
so sad there is that vapes have

1417
00:52:11,860 --> 00:52:14,420
tiny lithium batteries in them, and they go

1418
00:52:14,420 --> 00:52:17,400
to the landfill. And lithium's recyclable and reusable,

1419
00:52:17,860 --> 00:52:19,460
and we have a crisis. And a lot

1420
00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:21,239
of the, you know, also the

1421
00:52:21,755 --> 00:52:23,195
people on the right, you know, like to

1422
00:52:23,195 --> 00:52:24,875
say that, you know, lithium is hurting the

1423
00:52:24,875 --> 00:52:26,635
environment and electric cars are bad and so

1424
00:52:26,635 --> 00:52:28,474
on. And the reality is we can recover

1425
00:52:28,474 --> 00:52:31,275
and reuse our lithium and that radically reduces

1426
00:52:31,275 --> 00:52:33,355
the environmental footprint of lithium, but we don't

1427
00:52:33,355 --> 00:52:35,369
wanna be sending it into landfills. There are

1428
00:52:35,369 --> 00:52:38,250
actually landfill fires that are starting now because

1429
00:52:38,250 --> 00:52:39,949
of all the the vape concentrations

1430
00:52:40,329 --> 00:52:42,409
and probably other lithium batteries too, but there

1431
00:52:42,489 --> 00:52:45,289
if you Google lithium fires landfill, you'll you'll

1432
00:52:45,289 --> 00:52:45,789
find

1433
00:52:46,744 --> 00:52:48,585
that that's happening just saying And they're nice

1434
00:52:48,585 --> 00:52:51,324
and evenly distributed throughout the landfill. Right?

1435
00:52:52,105 --> 00:52:53,644
Yeah. So it is a problem.

1436
00:52:54,425 --> 00:52:56,605
I think you you missed a couple of

1437
00:52:56,664 --> 00:52:58,905
important ones. I mean, there there's all this

1438
00:52:58,905 --> 00:53:00,960
solid let's call it broadly solid waste, and

1439
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,239
what is the carbon footprint of that? And

1440
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,159
some of that's included in the paper, and

1441
00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:06,079
there's certainly other literature, you know, as a

1442
00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:08,900
whole discipline of looking at life cycle assessment.

1443
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,679
But, there's a kind of a gray zone

1444
00:53:11,679 --> 00:53:12,179
between

1445
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:12,980
cultivation

1446
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:14,340
proper and

1447
00:53:14,704 --> 00:53:15,844
putting it on the truck.

1448
00:53:16,304 --> 00:53:18,885
And that's, again, like I mentioned before, refrigeration,

1449
00:53:19,664 --> 00:53:20,164
curing,

1450
00:53:20,784 --> 00:53:21,605
and also,

1451
00:53:23,344 --> 00:53:25,045
downstream of that is extraction.

1452
00:53:25,664 --> 00:53:27,525
And that is a huge area

1453
00:53:27,824 --> 00:53:29,844
that we know almost nothing about

1454
00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:32,539
It just hasn't been studied and written about.

1455
00:53:32,539 --> 00:53:33,599
I really tried

1456
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:35,739
to bring that into the analysis, and I

1457
00:53:35,739 --> 00:53:37,340
think it will be coming. I have I

1458
00:53:37,340 --> 00:53:39,340
know some people who are trying to do

1459
00:53:39,340 --> 00:53:40,719
more research on that now.

1460
00:53:41,340 --> 00:53:43,739
But I did do one vignette that's in

1461
00:53:43,739 --> 00:53:46,385
the supporting appendix of my report you can

1462
00:53:46,385 --> 00:53:48,784
get online. It's not in the national numbers

1463
00:53:48,784 --> 00:53:49,905
because I don't know on scale, but I

1464
00:53:49,905 --> 00:53:52,144
looked at supercritical c o two, which was

1465
00:53:52,144 --> 00:53:52,804
the one

1466
00:53:53,264 --> 00:53:56,144
extraction process I could find information on, and

1467
00:53:56,144 --> 00:53:57,204
it was stunning.

1468
00:53:58,704 --> 00:53:59,204
About,

1469
00:54:00,289 --> 00:54:02,389
the c o two footprint from the extraction

1470
00:54:02,530 --> 00:54:03,030
process

1471
00:54:03,329 --> 00:54:05,570
was about 50 times the weight of the

1472
00:54:05,570 --> 00:54:09,109
flour. So 50 kilograms of c o two

1473
00:54:09,170 --> 00:54:11,489
to the atmosphere per kilogram of flour going

1474
00:54:11,489 --> 00:54:12,389
into the process.

1475
00:54:12,929 --> 00:54:13,429
And

1476
00:54:13,809 --> 00:54:14,309
that

1477
00:54:16,065 --> 00:54:18,385
that, you know, is about actually, it's more

1478
00:54:18,385 --> 00:54:20,304
than that. I'm sorry. It's about a 50

1479
00:54:20,304 --> 00:54:20,804
times.

1480
00:54:21,505 --> 00:54:23,344
But it depends. So if you look at,

1481
00:54:23,344 --> 00:54:25,264
like, what is that as a fraction of

1482
00:54:25,264 --> 00:54:25,764
indoor

1483
00:54:26,385 --> 00:54:29,670
footprint? It's like a 10% increase, 10% adder

1484
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:31,429
to the footprint we are talking about. But

1485
00:54:31,429 --> 00:54:34,089
if you look at outdoor, it's 30% increase.

1486
00:54:34,389 --> 00:54:37,269
Right? Because outdoors less less carbon intensive. Those

1487
00:54:37,269 --> 00:54:37,929
are percentages,

1488
00:54:38,230 --> 00:54:39,050
but it is

1489
00:54:39,429 --> 00:54:41,989
arguably an outdoor grower can make a bigger

1490
00:54:41,989 --> 00:54:44,010
marginal footprint on their,

1491
00:54:44,984 --> 00:54:47,804
impact on their footprint by improving the extraction.

1492
00:54:48,344 --> 00:54:49,545
And we just don't know. I mean, there's

1493
00:54:49,545 --> 00:54:51,644
so many processes and we don't know the

1494
00:54:52,025 --> 00:54:54,984
national magnitudes, but it's something that's just crying

1495
00:54:54,984 --> 00:54:55,644
out for

1496
00:54:56,264 --> 00:54:57,920
being looked at. It's not more important than

1497
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:59,680
the things we're talking about. But again, everything

1498
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:00,180
matters.

1499
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:03,140
So I don't know if those are helpful

1500
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,920
kind of conversations be you know, to address

1501
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,920
your your question. I'm happy to keep going.

1502
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,760
Yeah. It is. I I I would like

1503
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,934
us to, move a little bit further down

1504
00:55:12,934 --> 00:55:13,755
the chain,

1505
00:55:14,535 --> 00:55:15,035
into,

1506
00:55:16,135 --> 00:55:19,414
so what it's grown, and it's stored, and

1507
00:55:19,414 --> 00:55:22,535
it is extracted, and it is packaged. All

1508
00:55:22,535 --> 00:55:24,239
things that we've hit on so far.

1509
00:55:24,639 --> 00:55:26,079
But let's let's pick it up from that

1510
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:26,579
point.

1511
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,559
So, at this point, we're in transportation. So

1512
00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:31,840
why don't you pick up the story line

1513
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:32,340
there?

1514
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:35,119
Yeah. So it it's harder to look at

1515
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:37,440
transportation because, again, data, you know, one thing

1516
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,914
vexing this whole process is there's no, you

1517
00:55:39,994 --> 00:55:42,175
know, as a result of national criminalization

1518
00:55:42,554 --> 00:55:44,795
and whatever else where funding is, there's there's

1519
00:55:44,795 --> 00:55:47,035
not nearly as good a data on cannabis

1520
00:55:47,035 --> 00:55:49,515
industry as there are on other industries. And

1521
00:55:49,515 --> 00:55:51,275
and, of course, part of that problem is

1522
00:55:51,275 --> 00:55:52,859
also the industry itself not

1523
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:54,599
sharing, you know, its data. But, you know,

1524
00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:56,440
there are there are numbers out there and

1525
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:57,719
ways to look at it. And so I

1526
00:55:57,719 --> 00:55:59,179
do look at that in the paper,

1527
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,500
and it's, you know, there's lots of transportation

1528
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:03,400
going on right through the whole life cycle.

1529
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:04,380
I mean, there's upfront

1530
00:56:05,114 --> 00:56:07,454
transportation in the building of the facility,

1531
00:56:07,835 --> 00:56:09,594
of course, in the delivery of all the

1532
00:56:09,594 --> 00:56:10,655
inputs, the fertilizers,

1533
00:56:10,954 --> 00:56:13,934
the the plastics, the clones, the whatever.

1534
00:56:14,554 --> 00:56:16,875
And then there's people working and coming to

1535
00:56:16,875 --> 00:56:18,175
and fro. There's landfill.

1536
00:56:18,530 --> 00:56:20,050
So these things are broken out, you know,

1537
00:56:20,050 --> 00:56:21,969
in the report. And then, like you said,

1538
00:56:21,969 --> 00:56:23,409
at the end, of course, it goes into

1539
00:56:23,409 --> 00:56:26,690
a distribution chain. And, some people have complained

1540
00:56:26,690 --> 00:56:27,190
about

1541
00:56:27,889 --> 00:56:31,010
the regulatory landscape making this worse because cannabis

1542
00:56:31,170 --> 00:56:32,769
and this is gonna vary, you know, by

1543
00:56:32,769 --> 00:56:34,534
state and even by jurisdiction. Right?

1544
00:56:34,914 --> 00:56:35,414
But

1545
00:56:35,795 --> 00:56:37,234
the more times you have to move it

1546
00:56:37,234 --> 00:56:38,994
because of chain of not chain of custody,

1547
00:56:38,994 --> 00:56:41,474
but, like, the way the the, stewardship, you

1548
00:56:41,474 --> 00:56:42,614
know, is is dictated,

1549
00:56:43,234 --> 00:56:44,594
it may have to go to to one

1550
00:56:44,594 --> 00:56:46,594
level of distribution and then to another in

1551
00:56:46,594 --> 00:56:47,094
certain

1552
00:56:47,859 --> 00:56:51,059
processes in the in the, product life cycle

1553
00:56:51,059 --> 00:56:53,859
are separated to different locations, whatnot. But there's

1554
00:56:53,859 --> 00:56:56,440
transportation there. And, like, one one emerging thing

1555
00:56:56,500 --> 00:56:58,099
that I just mentioned, but there's no you

1556
00:56:58,099 --> 00:56:59,619
know, I couldn't get a handle on it

1557
00:56:59,619 --> 00:57:01,934
with numbers is, door to door delivery. I

1558
00:57:01,934 --> 00:57:03,454
mean, if you wanna really look, you know,

1559
00:57:03,454 --> 00:57:05,054
at the whole ecosystem, you have to look

1560
00:57:05,054 --> 00:57:07,454
at how it reaches consumer. That's the life

1561
00:57:07,454 --> 00:57:07,954
cycle.

1562
00:57:08,414 --> 00:57:11,074
And, certainly, door to door delivery is increasing.

1563
00:57:11,214 --> 00:57:12,654
What is the net effect? I don't know.

1564
00:57:12,654 --> 00:57:13,795
I mean, you can argue,

1565
00:57:14,639 --> 00:57:16,639
that it might save some energy and certainly

1566
00:57:16,639 --> 00:57:19,119
it's gonna defray some consumer trips. But, you

1567
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:20,819
know, there's a lot of talk now about

1568
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:23,039
the faster that people want their delivery, the

1569
00:57:23,039 --> 00:57:25,299
more carbon footprint there is because they send

1570
00:57:25,359 --> 00:57:27,359
single items out in a giant truck. And,

1571
00:57:27,359 --> 00:57:28,025
you know,

1572
00:57:28,484 --> 00:57:30,025
we've all had the experience

1573
00:57:30,324 --> 00:57:30,778
with Amazon, and you order something and it's

1574
00:57:30,778 --> 00:57:32,724
at your door the next day. And that

1575
00:57:32,724 --> 00:57:33,224
means,

1576
00:57:33,525 --> 00:57:35,385
you know, there were a lot of inefficiencies

1577
00:57:35,605 --> 00:57:37,125
in getting that to your door because they're

1578
00:57:37,125 --> 00:57:38,664
not they're not moving goods,

1579
00:57:39,045 --> 00:57:40,804
large amounts of goods in one trip to

1580
00:57:40,804 --> 00:57:42,804
one ZIP code. They're they're racing around with

1581
00:57:42,804 --> 00:57:45,070
it. One piece of data you dropped that

1582
00:57:45,070 --> 00:57:48,590
astonished me was that home delivery is 50%

1583
00:57:48,590 --> 00:57:51,230
of cannabis sales now. And and, you know,

1584
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:53,469
I I I've never had delivery. Not that

1585
00:57:53,469 --> 00:57:55,730
I wouldn't have it, but I live on

1586
00:57:55,789 --> 00:57:58,190
on an island that's small in the Puget

1587
00:57:58,190 --> 00:57:59,434
Sound. Right? And

1588
00:57:59,815 --> 00:58:02,055
and but but I I was astonished that

1589
00:58:02,055 --> 00:58:05,114
there's so much of it just being delivered.

1590
00:58:06,454 --> 00:58:08,375
And and, you know, I kinda I kinda

1591
00:58:08,375 --> 00:58:10,535
simmered on this. Kinda like, okay. So the

1592
00:58:10,535 --> 00:58:12,555
the cannabis store is setting sending

1593
00:58:12,929 --> 00:58:14,710
somebody to me with my cannabis.

1594
00:58:15,089 --> 00:58:16,690
But but in the old days, I used

1595
00:58:16,690 --> 00:58:18,949
to go to the house of my dealer,

1596
00:58:19,329 --> 00:58:21,809
and so one way or another, somebody had

1597
00:58:21,809 --> 00:58:22,630
to drive.

1598
00:58:22,929 --> 00:58:23,670
And so,

1599
00:58:24,449 --> 00:58:26,690
I can see how we put this on

1600
00:58:26,690 --> 00:58:28,724
the industry as a whole. But to be

1601
00:58:28,724 --> 00:58:30,365
fair, I don't I don't think we should

1602
00:58:30,485 --> 00:58:32,005
we need to it'd be fair to put

1603
00:58:32,005 --> 00:58:34,405
that on indoor. No. Agreed. And I tried

1604
00:58:34,405 --> 00:58:35,845
to be careful in saying what is the

1605
00:58:35,845 --> 00:58:37,525
net effect of this because you you have

1606
00:58:37,525 --> 00:58:39,285
to look at the net effect and, you

1607
00:58:39,285 --> 00:58:41,045
know, the the what is the alternative, and

1608
00:58:41,045 --> 00:58:42,724
is that more or less carbon, and and

1609
00:58:42,724 --> 00:58:43,865
we don't know.

1610
00:58:44,429 --> 00:58:46,429
But, again, if something you know, if you're

1611
00:58:46,429 --> 00:58:49,869
taking a 2,000 pound car to deliver, you

1612
00:58:49,869 --> 00:58:50,369
know,

1613
00:58:50,829 --> 00:58:52,130
an eighth somewhere

1614
00:58:52,510 --> 00:58:54,530
and that's your only trip that you're making

1615
00:58:54,829 --> 00:58:56,989
as opposed to a person who's ideally integrating

1616
00:58:56,989 --> 00:58:58,589
that with some other trip, then there's obviously

1617
00:58:58,589 --> 00:59:00,195
a difference. But I don't know. Also, just

1618
00:59:00,195 --> 00:59:02,375
a small correction. So that 50%,

1619
00:59:02,434 --> 00:59:04,454
that's a thought experiment in the paper

1620
00:59:04,755 --> 00:59:06,355
to see what effect would that be. And

1621
00:59:06,355 --> 00:59:06,835
that would

1622
00:59:07,635 --> 00:59:09,555
if we got to 50%, we don't know

1623
00:59:09,555 --> 00:59:11,115
what share. I don't know what share somebody

1624
00:59:11,115 --> 00:59:12,994
would be doing. That's a good clarification. Thank

1625
00:59:12,994 --> 00:59:14,275
you. There's a lot of scenarios in the

1626
00:59:14,275 --> 00:59:16,730
paper that the the policy scenarios and the

1627
00:59:16,730 --> 00:59:18,409
market scenarios saying, well, what if the market

1628
00:59:18,409 --> 00:59:20,010
evolved in this way or that way, good

1629
00:59:20,010 --> 00:59:22,329
or bad? Just how much do certain things

1630
00:59:22,329 --> 00:59:24,329
move the needle? So that one, like, if

1631
00:59:24,329 --> 00:59:27,289
50% of sales were eventually conveyed by delivery

1632
00:59:27,289 --> 00:59:27,789
services,

1633
00:59:28,194 --> 00:59:30,855
total emissions would go up by about 4%,

1634
00:59:31,074 --> 00:59:32,994
okay, from the total carbon footprint. So it's

1635
00:59:32,994 --> 00:59:34,514
not the end of the world. This isn't,

1636
00:59:34,514 --> 00:59:36,434
you know, the big knob at all. But

1637
00:59:36,434 --> 00:59:37,635
we just have to look at all these

1638
00:59:37,635 --> 00:59:39,315
things and and also, like, which ones are

1639
00:59:39,315 --> 00:59:40,594
big and which ones are small. And the

1640
00:59:40,594 --> 00:59:41,875
only way to do that is to go

1641
00:59:41,875 --> 00:59:44,819
through, you know, exercises like this. So delivery

1642
00:59:44,819 --> 00:59:46,659
is not in my study in in the

1643
00:59:46,659 --> 00:59:47,480
in the numbers

1644
00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:49,780
because we don't know, how much of it's

1645
00:59:49,780 --> 00:59:51,299
going on. That's a good that's a good

1646
00:59:51,299 --> 00:59:51,799
clarification.

1647
00:59:52,099 --> 00:59:53,000
Is saved by,

1648
00:59:53,619 --> 00:59:55,079
what the difference is between

1649
00:59:55,425 --> 00:59:57,905
individual consumers going and getting it. Or, of

1650
00:59:57,905 --> 00:59:59,364
course, there's the whole home cultivation

1651
00:59:59,664 --> 01:00:01,265
part of this as well, which is it's

1652
01:00:01,265 --> 01:00:04,224
whole, you know, separate discussion and that's included

1653
01:00:04,224 --> 01:00:04,965
in the study.

1654
01:00:05,824 --> 01:00:07,344
And there, you, you know, you save a

1655
01:00:07,344 --> 01:00:09,460
lot of emissions. And so the if I'm

1656
01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:11,780
remembering right, the home cultivation is about half

1657
01:00:11,780 --> 01:00:14,500
the carbon footprint. Indoor cultivation is something like

1658
01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:16,440
half the carbon footprint of of industrial,

1659
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:18,340
for a lot of reasons. And one of

1660
01:00:18,340 --> 01:00:20,019
them is you you, you know, you have

1661
01:00:20,019 --> 01:00:21,719
less transportation going on.

1662
01:00:22,244 --> 01:00:24,565
You have, you know, you're not landfilling, things

1663
01:00:24,565 --> 01:00:25,224
like that.

1664
01:00:25,605 --> 01:00:27,924
Well, that's an interesting spin, Evan, that I

1665
01:00:27,924 --> 01:00:30,744
did not pick up my first time through.

1666
01:00:31,125 --> 01:00:33,045
That's actually a decent I, you know, I

1667
01:00:33,045 --> 01:00:35,250
live in Washington where we're not allowed home

1668
01:00:35,250 --> 01:00:36,610
grow. We're, like, one of the only people.

1669
01:00:36,610 --> 01:00:38,070
There you go. Yeah. And,

1670
01:00:38,369 --> 01:00:39,809
you know, the the fact that,

1671
01:00:40,289 --> 01:00:42,150
it never occurred to me that that

1672
01:00:42,610 --> 01:00:43,110
individual

1673
01:00:43,889 --> 01:00:44,389
home,

1674
01:00:44,769 --> 01:00:46,849
you know, a four by four tent home

1675
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:48,469
grow is going to be

1676
01:00:49,065 --> 01:00:49,804
more efficient

1677
01:00:50,105 --> 01:00:53,385
for my own cannabis needs than it is

1678
01:00:53,385 --> 01:00:55,324
for me to buy it from,

1679
01:00:55,945 --> 01:00:58,125
from a store and all the extra

1680
01:00:59,304 --> 01:01:01,945
energy that's used by that cultivation. I usually

1681
01:01:01,945 --> 01:01:04,829
just compare it the the indoor that I

1682
01:01:04,829 --> 01:01:07,489
would buy at the store versus my outdoor.

1683
01:01:07,789 --> 01:01:09,569
But the idea that my indoor,

1684
01:01:10,829 --> 01:01:13,469
is more energy efficient surprises me. Can you

1685
01:01:13,469 --> 01:01:14,925
tease that out a little bit more? Yeah.

1686
01:01:15,085 --> 01:01:16,844
Yeah. Sure. So so let's be sure to

1687
01:01:16,844 --> 01:01:19,324
say can be. Can be. Fair enough. Okay.

1688
01:01:19,324 --> 01:01:19,824
Uh-huh.

1689
01:01:20,125 --> 01:01:21,664
The devil's always in the details.

1690
01:01:22,445 --> 01:01:23,985
But, and and still,

1691
01:01:24,765 --> 01:01:26,684
from my numbers, it's still about half the

1692
01:01:26,684 --> 01:01:29,565
carbon footprint, which is still 2,000 times its

1693
01:01:29,565 --> 01:01:30,000
weight

1694
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,219
in CO2.

1695
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:32,260
So,

1696
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:33,219
you know,

1697
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,599
keep it in perspective. It's an improvement. I

1698
01:01:35,599 --> 01:01:36,960
mean, there we go back to your conversations,

1699
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:38,400
like, but what can we do? You know?

1700
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:39,699
And so this is something

1701
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:41,760
ostensibly that would make a big dent in

1702
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,380
it, but you're still left with a problem,

1703
01:01:43,734 --> 01:01:45,114
you know, that's extraordinary.

1704
01:01:46,214 --> 01:01:48,635
But the reasons are, you know, not everybody's

1705
01:01:48,695 --> 01:01:49,514
air conditioning.

1706
01:01:50,375 --> 01:01:52,855
There's less volume. You know, these indoor grows,

1707
01:01:52,855 --> 01:01:54,054
as you see, you know, in the big

1708
01:01:54,054 --> 01:01:56,855
pictures, the industrial ones, they're incredibly voluminous. And

1709
01:01:56,855 --> 01:01:58,909
so you're, you know, you're not just lighting

1710
01:01:58,969 --> 01:02:01,690
plants, you're heating and cooling and dehumidifying, you

1711
01:02:01,690 --> 01:02:04,250
know, giant volumes of air. So, you know,

1712
01:02:04,250 --> 01:02:05,150
that's a factor.

1713
01:02:05,849 --> 01:02:06,170
The

1714
01:02:06,730 --> 01:02:08,250
you know, it it also depends on the

1715
01:02:08,250 --> 01:02:10,724
efficiency. Like, if, you know, you're using a

1716
01:02:10,724 --> 01:02:13,525
heat pump at home and the indoor grower

1717
01:02:13,525 --> 01:02:16,724
greenhouse is using gas heating that's at 80%

1718
01:02:16,724 --> 01:02:17,224
efficiency,

1719
01:02:18,164 --> 01:02:19,704
you know, that makes a difference.

1720
01:02:20,085 --> 01:02:22,005
You don't have the interdiction or at least

1721
01:02:22,005 --> 01:02:24,219
to the same level. And, you know, interdiction

1722
01:02:24,359 --> 01:02:26,039
I mean, there's a lot of work upfront

1723
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:28,199
in this paper of looking at how much

1724
01:02:28,199 --> 01:02:29,960
is grown versus how much makes it to

1725
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,039
the market because what doesn't make it to

1726
01:02:32,039 --> 01:02:34,119
the market I'm not really changing the subject,

1727
01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:36,219
but, you know, it's a part of this

1728
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,059
indoor grown thing. Again, it's

1729
01:02:38,474 --> 01:02:40,255
colorful. Right? And so,

1730
01:02:40,795 --> 01:02:42,175
you know, you have to take

1731
01:02:42,474 --> 01:02:44,414
all the energy used to cultivate

1732
01:02:45,355 --> 01:02:47,994
and divide that by the energy by the

1733
01:02:47,994 --> 01:02:50,155
quantity of cannabis consumed at the end of

1734
01:02:50,155 --> 01:02:52,969
the day. Right? That's the carbon footprint. You

1735
01:02:52,969 --> 01:02:55,050
have to count all the energy whether it

1736
01:02:55,050 --> 01:02:56,989
ends up in a given consumer's

1737
01:02:57,690 --> 01:02:59,690
product or not because that's c o two

1738
01:02:59,690 --> 01:03:01,609
to the atmosphere and it's energy being used.

1739
01:03:01,609 --> 01:03:03,609
And so, you know, you've got so many

1740
01:03:03,609 --> 01:03:04,829
forms of loss,

1741
01:03:05,445 --> 01:03:07,125
including at home. I mean, if you lose

1742
01:03:07,125 --> 01:03:08,664
a crop because you're

1743
01:03:08,965 --> 01:03:11,125
you're not skilled, you know, and all of

1744
01:03:11,125 --> 01:03:12,644
a sudden your four by four is full

1745
01:03:12,644 --> 01:03:14,985
of mold, you just wasted, you know,

1746
01:03:15,285 --> 01:03:17,844
sixty days of of electricity Mhmm. To get

1747
01:03:17,844 --> 01:03:20,550
there. But, also, you know, there's like the

1748
01:03:20,550 --> 01:03:22,869
product testing, which again, I'm not I'm not

1749
01:03:22,869 --> 01:03:25,750
against, but product testing results in destroyed cannabis

1750
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:27,349
and you're not product testing when you grow

1751
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:28,010
at home.

1752
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:31,190
The the transportation some of the transportation involved,

1753
01:03:31,190 --> 01:03:32,950
there's no dispensary being lit up. I mean,

1754
01:03:32,950 --> 01:03:33,769
that's a small

1755
01:03:34,114 --> 01:03:35,394
contrib Oh, that was a nice pun. Did

1756
01:03:35,394 --> 01:03:36,855
you get that one? Yeah, I got that.

1757
01:03:38,514 --> 01:03:39,734
So those are some factors.

1758
01:03:41,074 --> 01:03:42,375
Not everyone has dehumidification.

1759
01:03:43,074 --> 01:03:44,534
You don't have the large amounts

1760
01:03:44,835 --> 01:03:47,394
of moisture all being concentrated. Maybe you dry

1761
01:03:47,394 --> 01:03:49,335
it in your shower and you don't have

1762
01:03:50,170 --> 01:03:51,050
showers off.

1763
01:03:51,449 --> 01:03:53,469
You don't have, you know, an electric drying

1764
01:03:53,929 --> 01:03:55,150
environment with dehumidifiers

1765
01:03:55,530 --> 01:03:57,610
running. So, you know, it's those are the

1766
01:03:57,610 --> 01:03:58,989
kinds of reasons why

1767
01:03:59,449 --> 01:04:01,369
it seems like the home footprint. And then

1768
01:04:01,369 --> 01:04:03,210
you're not going to landfill. You know, the

1769
01:04:03,210 --> 01:04:04,269
laws that require

1770
01:04:04,809 --> 01:04:06,974
and, you know, I'm not the laws that

1771
01:04:06,974 --> 01:04:07,875
require landfilling

1772
01:04:08,734 --> 01:04:12,094
also increase carbon emissions. It's very small, very,

1773
01:04:12,094 --> 01:04:13,934
very small, but I had to calculate it

1774
01:04:13,934 --> 01:04:15,534
and just look. And when you put a

1775
01:04:15,534 --> 01:04:16,355
lot of biomass

1776
01:04:17,295 --> 01:04:19,289
under the ground, especially if you have

1777
01:04:20,090 --> 01:04:22,989
wet, you know, soaked mineral wool full

1778
01:04:23,289 --> 01:04:24,030
of full of,

1779
01:04:25,050 --> 01:04:25,530
pest

1780
01:04:26,090 --> 01:04:28,170
fertilizer residues and roots and so on, you

1781
01:04:28,170 --> 01:04:30,010
get methane. You know? And that's a greenhouse

1782
01:04:30,010 --> 01:04:32,170
gas, and landfills are not not catching all

1783
01:04:32,170 --> 01:04:34,184
the methane. So, anyway, that's not happening with

1784
01:04:34,265 --> 01:04:35,565
with, home cultivation.

1785
01:04:36,265 --> 01:04:37,864
As long as you compost it and it

1786
01:04:37,864 --> 01:04:38,925
doesn't go anaerobic,

1787
01:04:39,305 --> 01:04:41,224
you know, you're okay. That is an interesting

1788
01:04:41,224 --> 01:04:42,684
thing you said about interdiction.

1789
01:04:43,945 --> 01:04:44,925
You know, raising

1790
01:04:45,545 --> 01:04:46,045
the,

1791
01:04:46,610 --> 01:04:49,670
the energy consumption of overall cannabis because,

1792
01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:52,390
they're like, hey. It was it was grown,

1793
01:04:52,610 --> 01:04:54,289
and and if they just take it and

1794
01:04:54,289 --> 01:04:56,949
let it mold in some closet somewhere,

1795
01:04:57,730 --> 01:05:00,309
that that it's not getting it's not meeting

1796
01:05:00,369 --> 01:05:02,474
needs in the market. And so it's they're

1797
01:05:02,715 --> 01:05:03,215
essentially

1798
01:05:03,835 --> 01:05:05,614
letting electricity usage mold.

1799
01:05:05,914 --> 01:05:08,075
And so so interdiction is not good for

1800
01:05:08,075 --> 01:05:10,095
the environment is a catchy idea.

1801
01:05:10,474 --> 01:05:12,335
And it's not yeah. And it's not just,

1802
01:05:12,715 --> 01:05:13,215
electricity.

1803
01:05:14,075 --> 01:05:15,579
It's the fossil fuel, but it's also Energy.

1804
01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:17,320
Yes. It's also all the but and beyond

1805
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:18,860
energy, it's all the other inputs,

1806
01:05:19,559 --> 01:05:21,640
you know, to make the fertilizers and build

1807
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:23,400
the facilities. You know, you have to allocate

1808
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:24,619
all that energy somewhere.

1809
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,860
So, on the same token,

1810
01:05:27,614 --> 01:05:28,835
you know, product contamination,

1811
01:05:29,614 --> 01:05:31,875
which is the responsibility of the growers,

1812
01:05:32,494 --> 01:05:35,074
results in destruction of product when that's intercepted.

1813
01:05:35,614 --> 01:05:36,434
And overproduction

1814
01:05:36,815 --> 01:05:39,934
is a gigantic problem, and that's not, you

1815
01:05:39,934 --> 01:05:41,795
know, the the,

1816
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:44,960
you know, the government's fault. I mean, there

1817
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:46,800
are probably certain ways to blame the public

1818
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:48,980
sector on that, but but when you overproduce

1819
01:05:49,119 --> 01:05:50,559
and it doesn't get to market, I mean,

1820
01:05:50,559 --> 01:05:51,460
Canada Canada

1821
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:52,579
is destroying,

1822
01:05:53,119 --> 01:05:55,679
you know, thousands of tons of cannabis every

1823
01:05:55,679 --> 01:05:57,824
year. How come? That's just cause they're overproducing

1824
01:05:57,965 --> 01:05:59,804
and you can't keep it, you know, more

1825
01:05:59,804 --> 01:06:01,344
than a year or so. It loses

1826
01:06:01,644 --> 01:06:04,925
THC and the CBD profile changes. Mhmm. And

1827
01:06:04,925 --> 01:06:06,684
I mean, that's a whole separate conversation of

1828
01:06:06,684 --> 01:06:08,765
why is this overproduction happening and I'm no

1829
01:06:08,765 --> 01:06:10,900
expert in it, but I'm observing it. And

1830
01:06:10,900 --> 01:06:12,820
I have not folded that into the study

1831
01:06:12,820 --> 01:06:14,660
because we don't know how much of that's

1832
01:06:14,660 --> 01:06:16,099
happening. But if you look, there's a lot

1833
01:06:16,099 --> 01:06:17,699
of it discussed in the appendix of the

1834
01:06:17,699 --> 01:06:20,179
paper, a lot of specific numbers and examples

1835
01:06:20,179 --> 01:06:23,045
and industry reports, and it's giant

1836
01:06:23,585 --> 01:06:24,484
amounts. And so,

1837
01:06:25,344 --> 01:06:27,204
you know, you you have to look at

1838
01:06:27,664 --> 01:06:29,264
you know, there's a lot of reasons that

1839
01:06:29,264 --> 01:06:31,585
more is grown than is consumed. And then

1840
01:06:31,585 --> 01:06:33,664
product recalls, you know, is something that happens,

1841
01:06:33,664 --> 01:06:35,664
and I don't think it's happening much, which

1842
01:06:35,664 --> 01:06:37,190
is arguably a

1843
01:06:37,730 --> 01:06:40,050
problem. Right. But, but it's not that's not,

1844
01:06:40,050 --> 01:06:42,849
again, a giant two digit effect, but it's

1845
01:06:42,849 --> 01:06:44,289
just one of you know, it's an example

1846
01:06:44,289 --> 01:06:45,429
of how to think about

1847
01:06:45,730 --> 01:06:48,210
the gross production versus the net consumption and

1848
01:06:48,210 --> 01:06:51,835
and who where that energy and and, emissions

1849
01:06:52,375 --> 01:06:53,514
burden gets allocated.

1850
01:06:54,054 --> 01:06:55,835
And then it brings us to an interesting

1851
01:06:55,894 --> 01:06:58,295
point about legalization, which is, you know, a

1852
01:06:58,295 --> 01:06:58,795
question

1853
01:06:59,335 --> 01:07:01,255
that is everyone wants to ask as well,

1854
01:07:01,255 --> 01:07:01,994
does legalization

1855
01:07:02,695 --> 01:07:03,914
at the national scale

1856
01:07:04,299 --> 01:07:04,799
solve

1857
01:07:05,819 --> 01:07:06,719
climate problem?

1858
01:07:07,099 --> 01:07:09,099
And we can talk about that now or

1859
01:07:09,099 --> 01:07:11,739
now or later. But the, one thing it

1860
01:07:11,739 --> 01:07:13,920
does avoid is the interdiction

1861
01:07:14,219 --> 01:07:15,039
product destruction

1862
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:18,059
part of this puzzle, which again is a

1863
01:07:18,059 --> 01:07:18,559
minor

1864
01:07:19,055 --> 01:07:21,215
effect on the overall footprint, but it's not

1865
01:07:21,215 --> 01:07:22,275
a trivial one.

1866
01:07:22,575 --> 01:07:24,575
We'll come back to that, during the third

1867
01:07:24,575 --> 01:07:27,295
set. I want to finish off this second

1868
01:07:27,295 --> 01:07:28,095
set with,

1869
01:07:28,735 --> 01:07:29,055
a,

1870
01:07:29,535 --> 01:07:31,375
a a short discussion on,

1871
01:07:31,775 --> 01:07:32,275
fertilizers.

1872
01:07:33,535 --> 01:07:34,035
Specifically,

1873
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:36,340
on shaping fire,

1874
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:38,260
we are always teaching,

1875
01:07:39,039 --> 01:07:39,860
wild crafting,

1876
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:41,460
regenerative agriculture,

1877
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,300
making your own compost,

1878
01:07:44,079 --> 01:07:44,960
you know, using,

1879
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:46,660
local inputs,

1880
01:07:47,775 --> 01:07:50,335
you know, things like that. And and, you

1881
01:07:50,335 --> 01:07:52,734
know, of course, we're we're we're encouraging people.

1882
01:07:52,734 --> 01:07:54,514
We're trying to coax them away,

1883
01:07:54,974 --> 01:07:55,474
from,

1884
01:07:56,414 --> 01:07:59,635
synthetics and a plus b fertilizers and petroleum

1885
01:07:59,934 --> 01:08:03,599
derivatives and and, you know, this kind of,

1886
01:08:04,140 --> 01:08:04,640
synthetification

1887
01:08:05,420 --> 01:08:06,960
of of cannabis

1888
01:08:07,260 --> 01:08:07,760
fertilizers.

1889
01:08:08,460 --> 01:08:08,860
And,

1890
01:08:09,260 --> 01:08:11,760
and and and certainly, there is some,

1891
01:08:12,460 --> 01:08:13,519
energy usage

1892
01:08:14,054 --> 01:08:16,375
with, regenerative as well. You know, it's still

1893
01:08:16,375 --> 01:08:18,614
getting packaged some way. It's still being shipped

1894
01:08:18,614 --> 01:08:21,574
in most cases. Not everybody's wild crafting. So

1895
01:08:21,574 --> 01:08:23,335
so some of that is same between the

1896
01:08:23,335 --> 01:08:26,534
both, but but but, you know, I I

1897
01:08:26,534 --> 01:08:27,515
have an assumption

1898
01:08:27,975 --> 01:08:29,220
that most of this,

1899
01:08:29,860 --> 01:08:30,360
regenerative,

1900
01:08:31,539 --> 01:08:35,780
soil amendments, because they are often in the

1901
01:08:35,780 --> 01:08:37,860
form that they were in nature, you know,

1902
01:08:37,860 --> 01:08:39,780
may maybe we need to crush the crab

1903
01:08:39,780 --> 01:08:41,780
shell, but but it it but it is

1904
01:08:41,780 --> 01:08:42,920
not like,

1905
01:08:43,655 --> 01:08:46,155
you know, building an a plus b fertilizer

1906
01:08:46,295 --> 01:08:49,275
profile that's just gonna, like, supercharge the plant.

1907
01:08:49,335 --> 01:08:51,574
And so I'm I'm wondering how did how

1908
01:08:51,574 --> 01:08:54,795
did those compare, the the the the growing

1909
01:08:54,935 --> 01:08:56,210
inputs specifically

1910
01:08:56,670 --> 01:08:59,090
that are related to nutrition.

1911
01:09:00,110 --> 01:09:02,909
Yeah. Important point, and I would refer your,

1912
01:09:03,390 --> 01:09:06,050
your listeners to the the widely,

1913
01:09:06,510 --> 01:09:09,070
talked about article by Haley Summers and her

1914
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:11,654
colleagues from Colorado a couple years ago. And

1915
01:09:11,654 --> 01:09:13,414
and that was the first real serious so

1916
01:09:13,414 --> 01:09:15,494
called life cycle assessment of cannabis where they

1917
01:09:15,494 --> 01:09:18,054
went through, you know, ammonium nitrate and triple

1918
01:09:18,054 --> 01:09:21,094
super phosphate and potassium chloride and other soil

1919
01:09:21,094 --> 01:09:23,090
amendments. And also, you know,

1920
01:09:24,030 --> 01:09:26,189
neem oil and fungicides and other things. So

1921
01:09:26,189 --> 01:09:29,149
they did all that math, and, I baked

1922
01:09:29,149 --> 01:09:30,909
that into the work I'm doing. And so

1923
01:09:30,909 --> 01:09:32,909
for the way that comes out oh, and

1924
01:09:32,909 --> 01:09:35,170
by the way, let's talk about carbon dioxide,

1925
01:09:35,550 --> 01:09:37,570
which is actually the largest single

1926
01:09:38,324 --> 01:09:41,545
part of the non cultivation energy carbon footprint.

1927
01:09:41,765 --> 01:09:43,145
So that's another input.

1928
01:09:43,604 --> 01:09:45,445
And do you have that carbon dioxide is

1929
01:09:45,445 --> 01:09:48,005
made industrially. And I don't wanna hear about,

1930
01:09:48,005 --> 01:09:48,744
like, citing

1931
01:09:49,045 --> 01:09:51,364
grows next to breweries. Yeah. Okay. You know,

1932
01:09:51,364 --> 01:09:52,645
do that here and there. It's fine. Do

1933
01:09:52,645 --> 01:09:53,920
it if you can, but we're just we're

1934
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:55,859
not gonna have Anheuser Busch,

1935
01:09:56,559 --> 01:09:58,800
you know, putting cannabis grows next to all

1936
01:09:58,800 --> 01:09:59,859
its Sure.

1937
01:10:00,559 --> 01:10:01,779
Crappy beer factories.

1938
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,539
So so the I've got my spreadsheet,

1939
01:10:06,159 --> 01:10:07,760
spun up while you were asking me this

1940
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,155
question. So the in this study,

1941
01:10:10,854 --> 01:10:11,354
the

1942
01:10:11,895 --> 01:10:13,975
carbon footprint from all these inputs that I

1943
01:10:13,975 --> 01:10:16,555
just rattled off, also there's the mineral wool,

1944
01:10:17,255 --> 01:10:20,635
right, which is what melted freaking rock.

1945
01:10:21,175 --> 01:10:21,675
So

1946
01:10:22,215 --> 01:10:25,020
so there's a lot of carbon and because

1947
01:10:25,020 --> 01:10:27,739
there's a lot of energy in spinning mineral

1948
01:10:27,739 --> 01:10:29,760
wool into these cubes that are used once

1949
01:10:29,819 --> 01:10:32,060
and are generally not recyclable and go straight

1950
01:10:32,060 --> 01:10:32,719
to landfill.

1951
01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:35,899
That's actually the second largest

1952
01:10:37,104 --> 01:10:39,425
Well, no. Sorry. There's there's other ones that

1953
01:10:39,425 --> 01:10:41,185
are other soil amendments are more important. But

1954
01:10:41,185 --> 01:10:42,625
at any rate, the,

1955
01:10:43,185 --> 01:10:44,645
so if you look at the inputs

1956
01:10:45,344 --> 01:10:48,224
as a as a percentage, as a ratio

1957
01:10:48,224 --> 01:10:49,925
to the energy carbon

1958
01:10:50,469 --> 01:10:53,029
for cultivation. The inputs add are about a

1959
01:10:53,029 --> 01:10:53,849
third more.

1960
01:10:54,469 --> 01:10:56,389
So it it's significant. If you look at

1961
01:10:56,389 --> 01:10:58,329
the whole ball of wax, all the transportation,

1962
01:10:58,469 --> 01:11:00,329
everything, about 20%

1963
01:11:00,789 --> 01:11:02,409
of all the national emissions

1964
01:11:03,349 --> 01:11:06,264
from cannabis are from the the inputs. That's

1965
01:11:06,264 --> 01:11:08,904
actually also averaging together indoor and outdoor and

1966
01:11:08,904 --> 01:11:10,925
and all of it. So certain sub slices

1967
01:11:11,465 --> 01:11:13,625
might be, might be more or less. So

1968
01:11:13,625 --> 01:11:16,425
it does matter, but bottom line, it certainly

1969
01:11:16,425 --> 01:11:18,284
matters. And the,

1970
01:11:18,949 --> 01:11:20,550
you know, and again, you're also sending stuff

1971
01:11:20,550 --> 01:11:21,210
to landfill

1972
01:11:21,510 --> 01:11:23,590
instead of composting. So there's other reasons that

1973
01:11:23,590 --> 01:11:25,750
you know better than I do of why

1974
01:11:25,750 --> 01:11:27,829
closing these loops can can really help. You

1975
01:11:27,829 --> 01:11:29,270
just wanna be sure not to make methane

1976
01:11:29,270 --> 01:11:31,350
in your compost pile because then you're really

1977
01:11:31,350 --> 01:11:33,094
shooting yourself in the foot if it goes

1978
01:11:33,094 --> 01:11:34,954
anaerobic because it methane's an extremely

1979
01:11:35,335 --> 01:11:35,835
potent,

1980
01:11:36,534 --> 01:11:37,515
greenhouse gas.

1981
01:11:37,975 --> 01:11:39,895
But like I said, the biggest problem is

1982
01:11:39,895 --> 01:11:40,795
c o two,

1983
01:11:42,054 --> 01:11:44,314
and, you know, it's it's the biggest single

1984
01:11:44,534 --> 01:11:45,835
additional carbon footprint,

1985
01:11:46,380 --> 01:11:48,640
you know, element beyond the the energy

1986
01:11:49,579 --> 01:11:50,079
itself.

1987
01:11:50,859 --> 01:11:52,560
The creation of these,

1988
01:11:53,179 --> 01:11:55,899
petroleum based fertilizers, I must admit, I don't

1989
01:11:55,899 --> 01:11:58,000
exactly know how they are,

1990
01:11:59,055 --> 01:12:01,375
made because they've just never been attracted to

1991
01:12:01,375 --> 01:12:02,914
me or attractive to me.

1992
01:12:04,175 --> 01:12:05,475
How does that

1993
01:12:06,255 --> 01:12:08,195
fertilizer creation process

1994
01:12:08,975 --> 01:12:09,475
compare

1995
01:12:09,775 --> 01:12:11,479
with, you know, the regenerative

1996
01:12:12,100 --> 01:12:13,399
way of just collecting

1997
01:12:14,180 --> 01:12:16,760
natural items to mix into our soil?

1998
01:12:17,619 --> 01:12:19,140
Yeah. That's above my pay grade. I don't

1999
01:12:19,220 --> 01:12:21,460
you know, it's not my my specialty. Uh-huh.

2000
01:12:21,460 --> 01:12:23,060
But it's it there's a lot of literature

2001
01:12:23,060 --> 01:12:24,340
out there on it and, you know, and

2002
01:12:24,340 --> 01:12:26,524
there's a lot of fossil fuel. And, you

2003
01:12:26,524 --> 01:12:28,604
know, the the making of nitrate, you know,

2004
01:12:28,604 --> 01:12:30,524
in particular is of is known to be,

2005
01:12:30,524 --> 01:12:31,984
you know, very energy intensive,

2006
01:12:32,925 --> 01:12:35,085
process. I bet you that there is a

2007
01:12:35,085 --> 01:12:37,244
rich area for study down that rabbit hole

2008
01:12:37,244 --> 01:12:39,600
too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So let's

2009
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,159
go ahead and take our, second commercial break.

2010
01:12:42,159 --> 01:12:43,939
When we come back in set three,

2011
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,560
I wanna talk more about some of the

2012
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:47,060
perspectives,

2013
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:50,000
that are needed and and some of them

2014
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:51,600
that you mentioned during the first set, which

2015
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,194
I found to be very valuable. So so,

2016
01:12:54,435 --> 01:12:56,514
you are listening to Shaping Fire, and my

2017
01:12:56,514 --> 01:12:59,875
guest today is, energy and environmental systems analyst

2018
01:12:59,875 --> 01:13:02,375
Evan Mills. And, you know, without these advertisers,

2019
01:13:02,514 --> 01:13:05,074
Shaping Fire would not happen. So please support

2020
01:13:05,074 --> 01:13:06,755
them and let them know you heard them

2021
01:13:06,755 --> 01:13:07,895
on Shaping Fire.

2022
01:13:11,170 --> 01:13:13,489
One of the challenges with buying autoflower seeds

2023
01:13:13,489 --> 01:13:15,329
is that often you'll have as many different

2024
01:13:15,329 --> 01:13:17,250
phenos as you will have seeds in a

2025
01:13:17,250 --> 01:13:17,750
pack.

2026
01:13:18,050 --> 01:13:20,530
That can be fun, sure, but so many

2027
01:13:20,530 --> 01:13:22,625
varieties in one pack is a sign of

2028
01:13:22,625 --> 01:13:24,864
an immature seed line that hasn't been worked

2029
01:13:24,864 --> 01:13:25,364
enough.

2030
01:13:26,065 --> 01:13:28,385
I prefer my autoflowers to be worked enough

2031
01:13:28,385 --> 01:13:30,625
that each fino in the pack really captures

2032
01:13:30,625 --> 01:13:32,485
the aspects that the breeder was intending.

2033
01:13:33,505 --> 01:13:36,270
This is why I recommend Gnome automatics to

2034
01:13:36,270 --> 01:13:38,750
my friends and listeners who grow automatic flowering

2035
01:13:38,750 --> 01:13:39,729
cannabis seeds.

2036
01:13:40,429 --> 01:13:42,829
Gnome automatic seeds are not just crossed and

2037
01:13:42,829 --> 01:13:46,364
released. They are painstakingly sifted again and again,

2038
01:13:46,605 --> 01:13:49,005
tested in a wide range of conditions, and

2039
01:13:49,005 --> 01:13:51,164
taken to a level of maturity that each

2040
01:13:51,164 --> 01:13:53,345
plant will be recognizable by its traits.

2041
01:13:54,125 --> 01:13:56,204
Traits that were hard earned so that you

2042
01:13:56,204 --> 01:13:58,305
can have your best growth cycle ever.

2043
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:02,119
Over the last ten years, Gnome Automatics founder

2044
01:14:02,119 --> 01:14:04,680
Dan Jimmy has become a trusted breeder and

2045
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,680
he continues to pour his passion of breeding

2046
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,560
cannabis into every variety he releases for you

2047
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:10,140
to grow.

2048
01:14:10,954 --> 01:14:13,215
Check out the Gnome Automatics Instagram

2049
01:14:13,675 --> 01:14:15,054
at gnome underscore

2050
01:14:15,354 --> 01:14:18,074
automatics to see the impressive plants folks are

2051
01:14:18,074 --> 01:14:18,574
growing.

2052
01:14:19,354 --> 01:14:22,094
You can score Gnome Automatic seeds in feminized

2053
01:14:22,154 --> 01:14:24,795
or regular at your favorite seed provider listed

2054
01:14:24,795 --> 01:14:26,609
in the vendor section of their website.

2055
01:14:27,569 --> 01:14:30,130
Commercial cannabis farms across the country love growing

2056
01:14:30,130 --> 01:14:30,949
gnome automatics

2057
01:14:31,250 --> 01:14:32,469
because of their consistency

2058
01:14:32,770 --> 01:14:33,989
from seed to seed,

2059
01:14:34,369 --> 01:14:37,029
short grow times, THC percentages,

2060
01:14:37,329 --> 01:14:38,949
and colorful bag appeal.

2061
01:14:39,405 --> 01:14:41,645
Farms interested in bulk seeds of more than

2062
01:14:41,645 --> 01:14:45,744
a thousand should reach out through gnomeautomatics.com.

2063
01:14:46,524 --> 01:14:48,284
While on the website, be sure to check

2064
01:14:48,284 --> 01:14:50,765
out the gnome automatics shirts and other merch

2065
01:14:50,765 --> 01:14:51,664
section too.

2066
01:14:52,199 --> 01:14:53,979
If you want reliable seeds,

2067
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,579
hand built from effort, expert selection, and experience,

2068
01:14:58,039 --> 01:14:58,539
choose

2069
01:14:58,920 --> 01:14:59,739
Gnome Automatic.

2070
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,774
Fish poop brand fertilizer is an all natural

2071
01:15:06,255 --> 01:15:08,274
poop concentrate with nothing added.

2072
01:15:08,654 --> 01:15:10,194
Real fish poop is extraordinarily

2073
01:15:10,574 --> 01:15:11,074
complex.

2074
01:15:11,614 --> 01:15:14,114
Not only are you adding the nitrogen, phosphorus,

2075
01:15:14,175 --> 01:15:16,414
and potassium your plants need to build mass,

2076
01:15:16,414 --> 01:15:18,354
transport nutrients, and enhance flavor,

2077
01:15:18,770 --> 01:15:21,430
but fish waste is also packed with biological

2078
01:15:21,569 --> 01:15:22,789
activity and micronutrients.

2079
01:15:23,969 --> 01:15:26,310
When you add fish poop to your irrigation

2080
01:15:26,369 --> 01:15:29,649
water, you are adding life force, probiotics and

2081
01:15:29,649 --> 01:15:30,630
active microbes.

2082
01:15:31,265 --> 01:15:32,085
These microorganisms

2083
01:15:32,465 --> 01:15:34,885
include a wealth of various bacteria and protozoa

2084
01:15:35,185 --> 01:15:38,405
which further enhance nutrient availability for the plants.

2085
01:15:39,185 --> 01:15:41,664
Because plants are limited by the absence of

2086
01:15:41,664 --> 01:15:42,885
any essential micronutrient,

2087
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:46,070
these trace nutrients are the difference between having

2088
01:15:46,070 --> 01:15:48,149
a decent garden and having a garden that

2089
01:15:48,149 --> 01:15:50,250
makes you feel really proud of your efforts.

2090
01:15:50,869 --> 01:15:53,750
Fish poop is a naturally complete solution that

2091
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:56,070
fills in the cracks in your fertilizer program

2092
01:15:56,070 --> 01:15:58,604
to ensure you offer your garden a broad

2093
01:15:58,604 --> 01:15:59,585
base of nutrients.

2094
01:16:00,284 --> 01:16:02,465
Not all fish poop is created equally.

2095
01:16:03,005 --> 01:16:05,724
Most products with added fish waste don't reveal

2096
01:16:05,724 --> 01:16:07,505
their sources or lab results.

2097
01:16:08,045 --> 01:16:10,224
Fish poop brand Fish poop, however,

2098
01:16:10,670 --> 01:16:13,010
generates their own fish waste as a byproduct

2099
01:16:13,070 --> 01:16:16,030
of their organic aquaponics cannabis farm where they

2100
01:16:16,030 --> 01:16:17,970
raise ornamental koi and tilapia.

2101
01:16:18,670 --> 01:16:20,750
You are even invited to tour their farm

2102
01:16:20,750 --> 01:16:22,829
in person or on their YouTube channel to

2103
01:16:22,829 --> 01:16:23,729
look for yourself.

2104
01:16:24,305 --> 01:16:26,704
This sort of transparency is wildly rare in

2105
01:16:26,704 --> 01:16:28,005
the fertilizer market.

2106
01:16:28,625 --> 01:16:31,425
The folks behind fish poop are also lifelong

2107
01:16:31,425 --> 01:16:34,465
medical cannabis producers who have deep connections in

2108
01:16:34,465 --> 01:16:35,045
the community,

2109
01:16:35,505 --> 01:16:38,310
donate more product than they sell, and support

2110
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:41,849
cannabis prisoner, veteran, and patient collectives and charities.

2111
01:16:42,550 --> 01:16:45,050
To get your bottle of pure fish poop,

2112
01:16:45,109 --> 01:16:46,969
go to fishpoop.com.

2113
01:16:47,029 --> 01:16:48,949
And to see their entire line of cannabis

2114
01:16:48,949 --> 01:16:51,585
products, go to ounceofhope.com.

2115
01:16:51,744 --> 01:16:54,164
That's fish poop, brand fish poop.

2116
01:16:57,344 --> 01:16:59,185
Sometimes the topics I wanna share with you

2117
01:16:59,185 --> 01:17:01,024
are far too brief for an entire Shaping

2118
01:17:01,024 --> 01:17:03,904
Fire episode. In those instances, I post them

2119
01:17:03,904 --> 01:17:04,564
to Instagram.

2120
01:17:04,969 --> 01:17:07,050
I invite you to follow my two Instagram

2121
01:17:07,050 --> 01:17:08,989
profiles and participate online.

2122
01:17:09,449 --> 01:17:12,250
The Shaping Fire Instagram has follow-up posts to

2123
01:17:12,250 --> 01:17:13,390
Shaping Fire episodes,

2124
01:17:13,850 --> 01:17:17,369
growing and processing best practices, product trials, and

2125
01:17:17,369 --> 01:17:20,595
of course, gorgeous flower photos. The Shango Loast

2126
01:17:20,595 --> 01:17:23,494
Instagram follows my travels on cannabis garden tours,

2127
01:17:23,635 --> 01:17:26,215
my successes and failures in my own garden,

2128
01:17:26,515 --> 01:17:29,414
insights and best practices from personal grows everywhere,

2129
01:17:29,715 --> 01:17:31,814
and always gorgeous flower photos.

2130
01:17:32,180 --> 01:17:34,340
On both profiles, the emphasis is on sharing

2131
01:17:34,340 --> 01:17:35,539
what I've learned in a way that you

2132
01:17:35,539 --> 01:17:37,780
can replicate it in your own garden, your

2133
01:17:37,780 --> 01:17:40,119
own hash lab, or for your own cambidopathic

2134
01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:42,899
health. So I encourage you to follow at

2135
01:17:42,899 --> 01:17:45,780
shaping fire and at shango lows and join

2136
01:17:45,780 --> 01:17:47,640
our online community on Instagram.

2137
01:17:49,564 --> 01:17:51,885
Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.

2138
01:17:51,885 --> 01:17:54,125
I am your host, Shango Los. And my

2139
01:17:54,125 --> 01:17:57,024
guest today is energy and environmental systems analyst,

2140
01:17:57,085 --> 01:17:57,904
Evan Mills.

2141
01:17:58,204 --> 01:18:01,199
So Evan, you know, I have had to

2142
01:18:01,199 --> 01:18:02,180
hold myself,

2143
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:03,860
as

2144
01:18:04,239 --> 01:18:04,739
host

2145
01:18:05,119 --> 01:18:07,840
several times during the show because I have

2146
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,520
gone my whole life defending cannabis from from

2147
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:13,360
people who wanted to tell me it was

2148
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,774
a a drug with no medical use, and

2149
01:18:15,774 --> 01:18:17,774
and people who said I shouldn't be around

2150
01:18:17,774 --> 01:18:19,935
it because of the law, and then people

2151
01:18:19,935 --> 01:18:21,694
who are telling me that we shouldn't grow

2152
01:18:21,694 --> 01:18:23,614
it because I don't have a license. And

2153
01:18:23,614 --> 01:18:25,614
then, you know, it's it's it's it's one

2154
01:18:25,614 --> 01:18:27,869
thing after another where I have been been

2155
01:18:27,869 --> 01:18:29,789
trying and and all of those with me.

2156
01:18:29,789 --> 01:18:32,130
Right? All of all of my cannabis family,

2157
01:18:32,270 --> 01:18:33,329
we're we've all

2158
01:18:33,949 --> 01:18:37,149
so used to defending cannabis and defending ourselves

2159
01:18:37,149 --> 01:18:39,469
and defending our rights and and trying to

2160
01:18:39,469 --> 01:18:40,689
get people to understand

2161
01:18:41,145 --> 01:18:44,425
that this herb is healing of the mind,

2162
01:18:44,425 --> 01:18:45,404
soul, and body.

2163
01:18:45,864 --> 01:18:47,085
And and so,

2164
01:18:47,465 --> 01:18:50,264
you know, talking about cannabis in the way

2165
01:18:50,264 --> 01:18:51,484
that we have today,

2166
01:18:52,425 --> 01:18:53,039
I'm also

2167
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:03,220
cannabis. And and and I think that part

2168
01:19:03,627 --> 01:19:04,127
of

2169
01:19:04,533 --> 01:19:05,033
the

2170
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:05,939
big

2171
01:19:06,399 --> 01:19:07,780
shift that has to happen

2172
01:19:08,239 --> 01:19:08,739
is

2173
01:19:09,095 --> 01:19:12,375
is messaging to come through for people to

2174
01:19:12,375 --> 01:19:14,235
understand that we can still

2175
01:19:15,095 --> 01:19:15,994
love cannabis,

2176
01:19:16,454 --> 01:19:19,655
swear by it, defend it, and also be

2177
01:19:19,655 --> 01:19:20,155
responsible

2178
01:19:20,614 --> 01:19:23,159
for the energy usage that our,

2179
01:19:23,699 --> 01:19:26,119
you know, favorite plant is using

2180
01:19:26,579 --> 01:19:29,619
and and, you know, unfortunately, the poor way

2181
01:19:29,619 --> 01:19:32,739
that it's being implemented bureaucratically. But I think

2182
01:19:32,739 --> 01:19:34,279
at the core of it, somehow

2183
01:19:34,739 --> 01:19:36,555
those of us who love it need to

2184
01:19:36,715 --> 01:19:37,215
split

2185
01:19:37,835 --> 01:19:38,895
from identifying

2186
01:19:39,275 --> 01:19:40,975
the cannabis as ourselves

2187
01:19:41,994 --> 01:19:42,814
and instead

2188
01:19:43,114 --> 01:19:45,595
understand that it it's time for us to

2189
01:19:45,595 --> 01:19:46,095
work,

2190
01:19:46,635 --> 01:19:48,555
with the plant in a way so that

2191
01:19:48,555 --> 01:19:50,875
we're not abusing the environment to get the

2192
01:19:50,875 --> 01:19:52,255
part of it that we like.

2193
01:19:53,329 --> 01:19:55,329
You just answered your own question beautifully. What's

2194
01:19:55,329 --> 01:19:56,869
the next question? No.

2195
01:19:57,969 --> 01:19:59,909
Give it your own context, please.

2196
01:20:00,289 --> 01:20:01,909
I mean, you you set that up

2197
01:20:02,289 --> 01:20:04,309
really well and rationally. And,

2198
01:20:04,689 --> 01:20:06,449
look, you know, I grew up, I was

2199
01:20:06,449 --> 01:20:07,395
born in 1960.

2200
01:20:07,635 --> 01:20:09,654
I grew up in the fabled Laurel Canyon.

2201
01:20:09,875 --> 01:20:11,314
I used to go as to Cheech and

2202
01:20:11,314 --> 01:20:13,414
Chong's kids, Halloween parties.

2203
01:20:13,875 --> 01:20:15,635
I live in Northern California now in the

2204
01:20:15,635 --> 01:20:16,135
Redwoods.

2205
01:20:16,675 --> 01:20:18,454
I'm a a organic gardener,

2206
01:20:19,074 --> 01:20:21,154
not of cannabis, but of, you know, I

2207
01:20:21,154 --> 01:20:22,055
love my garden.

2208
01:20:23,816 --> 01:20:25,180
I not against the plant or against,

2209
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:27,979
you know, people who who wanna use it.

2210
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:30,440
It's, you know, Jerry, the,

2211
01:20:31,159 --> 01:20:32,840
Henry Ford, one of his, you know, many

2212
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:35,320
famous quotes was, everything can always be done

2213
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:36,539
better than it is.

2214
01:20:37,545 --> 01:20:39,064
Be done better than it's done now. And

2215
01:20:39,064 --> 01:20:42,524
that's Yeah. Part of what leads to innovation.

2216
01:20:43,064 --> 01:20:43,564
And

2217
01:20:44,024 --> 01:20:45,864
there's, you know, this guy and, you know,

2218
01:20:45,864 --> 01:20:47,704
you're earlier, you were asking how LED lights

2219
01:20:47,704 --> 01:20:49,645
can be done better, and that that is

2220
01:20:49,789 --> 01:20:51,390
a valid thing, and it is something that's

2221
01:20:51,390 --> 01:20:53,229
being chased. So I think just having the

2222
01:20:53,229 --> 01:20:54,210
attitude of,

2223
01:20:55,390 --> 01:20:57,469
let's be creative. Let's be smarter. Let's be

2224
01:20:57,469 --> 01:20:58,529
sure we're current.

2225
01:21:00,029 --> 01:21:02,210
Let's be not let our protectiveness

2226
01:21:02,590 --> 01:21:04,270
you know, I I was listening to another

2227
01:21:04,270 --> 01:21:05,625
podcast, and the guy,

2228
01:21:06,345 --> 01:21:08,265
was in the industry, and he was opposing

2229
01:21:08,265 --> 01:21:09,244
interstate transport,

2230
01:21:10,425 --> 01:21:12,744
because he wanted to protect his local market.

2231
01:21:12,744 --> 01:21:14,345
And, you know, it's a free country, at

2232
01:21:14,345 --> 01:21:16,265
least for the moment. Just you have to

2233
01:21:16,265 --> 01:21:18,904
be care you know, think big. You know?

2234
01:21:18,904 --> 01:21:20,284
Think about the big picture.

2235
01:21:21,810 --> 01:21:24,930
Do we really wanna oppose interstate commerce to

2236
01:21:24,930 --> 01:21:25,430
protect

2237
01:21:26,610 --> 01:21:29,510
with, you know, without any kind of counterweight

2238
01:21:29,729 --> 01:21:32,050
to it? Because that's that's potentially gonna have

2239
01:21:32,050 --> 01:21:33,350
an energy, you know,

2240
01:21:33,729 --> 01:21:35,715
climate con consequences. Is it worth it?

2241
01:21:38,034 --> 01:21:39,635
So I don't know if that's helpful, but,

2242
01:21:39,635 --> 01:21:41,574
you know, those are some, I think, some

2243
01:21:41,715 --> 01:21:44,135
thoughts. I the industry is also,

2244
01:21:45,234 --> 01:21:46,135
to be honest,

2245
01:21:47,554 --> 01:21:49,474
starting to do some of this on its

2246
01:21:49,474 --> 01:21:49,974
own.

2247
01:21:50,550 --> 01:21:52,630
You look at like, it's been some years

2248
01:21:52,630 --> 01:21:55,349
now. You know, canopy growth in Canada closed

2249
01:21:55,349 --> 01:21:55,849
gigantic

2250
01:21:56,310 --> 01:21:58,010
indoor warehouses and transitioned,

2251
01:21:58,389 --> 01:22:00,229
you know, to greenhouse. And, you know, there's

2252
01:22:00,229 --> 01:22:01,829
more and more greenhouse coming. I mean, that's

2253
01:22:01,829 --> 01:22:04,305
been one of the big changes since the

2254
01:22:04,305 --> 01:22:06,944
02/2012 study. Obviously, at that point, there was,

2255
01:22:06,944 --> 01:22:08,864
you know, very little of these, you know,

2256
01:22:08,864 --> 01:22:11,284
prodigious, you know, 300,000

2257
01:22:11,425 --> 01:22:13,744
square foot, you know, greenhouses happening. Now there

2258
01:22:13,744 --> 01:22:15,505
are no panacea, and it's too bad that

2259
01:22:15,505 --> 01:22:17,024
they have the word green in their name

2260
01:22:17,024 --> 01:22:18,929
because they use a lot of dehumidification.

2261
01:22:19,389 --> 01:22:20,829
Most of them use a lot of electric

2262
01:22:20,829 --> 01:22:21,329
lighting,

2263
01:22:22,829 --> 01:22:25,710
and still the artificial the, fossil based inputs

2264
01:22:25,710 --> 01:22:26,989
and and all of that, but there is

2265
01:22:26,989 --> 01:22:27,729
less energy.

2266
01:22:28,189 --> 01:22:30,189
And there's and that there's a lot of

2267
01:22:30,189 --> 01:22:31,889
optimization potential there

2268
01:22:32,355 --> 01:22:32,855
for

2269
01:22:33,315 --> 01:22:35,715
sure in the greenhouse type, you know, daylight.

2270
01:22:35,715 --> 01:22:37,635
I mean, we're using daylight in our buildings.

2271
01:22:37,635 --> 01:22:39,475
You know, there's a whole science around daylighting

2272
01:22:39,475 --> 01:22:40,135
for humans

2273
01:22:40,595 --> 01:22:42,695
and to use making more use of that.

2274
01:22:42,835 --> 01:22:43,895
And the potential,

2275
01:22:45,109 --> 01:22:47,270
for that pales compared to, you know, the

2276
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:49,930
cannabis potential. So getting smarter with greenhouses,

2277
01:22:50,310 --> 01:22:51,590
I think, is a big one. They they

2278
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:53,750
lose so much energy, and they're almost always

2279
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:55,130
heated with natural gas.

2280
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:57,050
You know, that's that's more the convention.

2281
01:22:57,555 --> 01:22:59,475
And, why do you have all this glass

2282
01:22:59,475 --> 01:23:01,234
facing north? And on and on. You know,

2283
01:23:01,234 --> 01:23:02,994
so there are people out there who are,

2284
01:23:02,994 --> 01:23:04,515
you know, have been working not just in

2285
01:23:04,515 --> 01:23:06,755
the cannabis space, but in indoor ag more

2286
01:23:06,755 --> 01:23:08,135
generally to try to optimize

2287
01:23:08,835 --> 01:23:10,994
greenhouses. But, you know, the cost of I

2288
01:23:10,994 --> 01:23:12,435
I guess one thing I would add is

2289
01:23:12,435 --> 01:23:13,699
that there's an enlightened

2290
01:23:14,159 --> 01:23:15,060
self preservation

2291
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:16,900
argument here too

2292
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:17,860
because,

2293
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:20,340
you know, I mean, it can't

2294
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:23,039
here in Northern California, the out the growers

2295
01:23:23,039 --> 01:23:24,900
used to call our local electric

2296
01:23:31,234 --> 01:23:33,014
monthly energy bills. And,

2297
01:23:34,114 --> 01:23:35,974
it's become a huge issue with profitability.

2298
01:23:36,434 --> 01:23:38,274
And I would argue, it's some paper I

2299
01:23:38,274 --> 01:23:40,860
haven't written yet, but I think the bankruptcies

2300
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:42,860
that we're seeing in the cannabis space

2301
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:45,180
are often tracing back,

2302
01:23:46,119 --> 01:23:48,520
not necessarily solely, but in significant part to

2303
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:50,520
the energy spend. You know, you spend a

2304
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:51,659
lot of money upfront

2305
01:23:52,039 --> 01:23:53,720
for all the capital. I mean, these lighting

2306
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:55,340
systems, these HVAC systems,

2307
01:23:55,984 --> 01:23:57,265
and then if you wanna try to be

2308
01:23:57,265 --> 01:23:59,024
green and putting in solar on top of

2309
01:23:59,024 --> 01:24:00,564
that and water recovery

2310
01:24:01,024 --> 01:24:03,045
from your waste air stream,

2311
01:24:03,664 --> 01:24:05,744
so it's and then you operate and you're

2312
01:24:05,744 --> 01:24:08,484
spending millions of dollars a month, can be,

2313
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,039
on energy. So it's a real pain point.

2314
01:24:11,039 --> 01:24:13,119
So, you know, in part, industry is discovering

2315
01:24:13,119 --> 01:24:14,239
this kind of the hard way, but I

2316
01:24:14,239 --> 01:24:15,780
would I would hate to see a big

2317
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:17,600
boom and bust where we have all these,

2318
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,760
you know, abandoned warehouses with all this equipment

2319
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:21,375
that nobody else needs in them. And,

2320
01:24:22,015 --> 01:24:23,935
so The boom and bust, I think, is,

2321
01:24:24,175 --> 01:24:25,555
on on the menu for,

2322
01:24:26,015 --> 01:24:28,095
California because it's already happening. Right? I I

2323
01:24:28,095 --> 01:24:30,494
hope that we see this better in other

2324
01:24:30,494 --> 01:24:31,314
states. And,

2325
01:24:32,175 --> 01:24:34,500
earlier in in in this last

2326
01:24:35,300 --> 01:24:36,279
run of words,

2327
01:24:36,659 --> 01:24:37,960
you had mentioned that,

2328
01:24:38,659 --> 01:24:40,100
you know, some of the things that,

2329
01:24:40,659 --> 01:24:42,500
the industry is doing to improve, and it's

2330
01:24:42,500 --> 01:24:43,000
really

2331
01:24:43,460 --> 01:24:45,859
startling how low the bar is for a

2332
01:24:45,859 --> 01:24:47,645
lot of the folks to make an impression.

2333
01:24:47,704 --> 01:24:48,524
For example,

2334
01:24:49,145 --> 01:24:51,064
you know, I was down in California as

2335
01:24:51,064 --> 01:24:53,465
I often am, and, you know, I picked

2336
01:24:53,465 --> 01:24:54,925
up some, regenerative,

2337
01:24:55,385 --> 01:24:58,345
cannabis flower from Soul Spirit Garden. And I

2338
01:24:58,345 --> 01:25:00,010
was just I was overjoyed

2339
01:25:00,390 --> 01:25:02,869
and and made an Instagram post because they

2340
01:25:02,869 --> 01:25:03,369
use,

2341
01:25:03,989 --> 01:25:04,489
compostable

2342
01:25:04,869 --> 01:25:06,729
dupe tubes and and,

2343
01:25:07,670 --> 01:25:08,570
some kind of

2344
01:25:08,949 --> 01:25:10,650
compostable paper ink,

2345
01:25:11,030 --> 01:25:12,824
you know, for their for their boxes. And

2346
01:25:12,824 --> 01:25:14,824
I was just floored to see something that

2347
01:25:14,824 --> 01:25:16,664
existing because, you know, I I go into

2348
01:25:16,664 --> 01:25:18,664
places all across the country, and I've I've

2349
01:25:18,664 --> 01:25:19,164
not

2350
01:25:19,465 --> 01:25:21,945
seen anybody do that that actively. And and

2351
01:25:21,945 --> 01:25:23,945
here I am overjoyed and and, you know,

2352
01:25:23,945 --> 01:25:25,864
all all love and support to soul spirit,

2353
01:25:25,864 --> 01:25:27,784
but but we we need to see that

2354
01:25:27,784 --> 01:25:29,489
from just one farm. Right? We need to

2355
01:25:29,489 --> 01:25:31,989
see that with in in entire states,

2356
01:25:32,529 --> 01:25:33,989
moving in this generation

2357
01:25:34,449 --> 01:25:36,310
or in this general direction.

2358
01:25:37,489 --> 01:25:39,430
I was also curious earlier,

2359
01:25:39,890 --> 01:25:42,770
during second set, you you talked about some

2360
01:25:42,770 --> 01:25:44,470
inherent market bias

2361
01:25:44,885 --> 01:25:47,704
towards indoor that wasn't coming from the consumer.

2362
01:25:48,324 --> 01:25:50,484
And, and I wanted to hit on that

2363
01:25:50,484 --> 01:25:52,484
before we wrapped up. So would you would

2364
01:25:52,484 --> 01:25:53,925
you kind of color that in for us?

2365
01:25:53,925 --> 01:25:55,925
Because I'd like to hear those points. Sure.

2366
01:25:55,925 --> 01:25:57,145
It's yeah. It's pretty

2367
01:25:58,029 --> 01:26:00,829
interesting and disheartening to dig in a bit

2368
01:26:00,829 --> 01:26:02,750
to, like, how the market's working in the

2369
01:26:02,750 --> 01:26:05,409
regulatory sphere and and other aspects.

2370
01:26:06,029 --> 01:26:07,869
One is that that we see here in

2371
01:26:07,869 --> 01:26:09,789
California, and it's probably true in other states,

2372
01:26:09,789 --> 01:26:11,295
I know it's true in other states

2373
01:26:12,255 --> 01:26:13,314
varying by state,

2374
01:26:13,694 --> 01:26:15,635
is that some of the legislation

2375
01:26:16,654 --> 01:26:19,054
defers to well, first of all, some of

2376
01:26:19,054 --> 01:26:20,914
the legislation, like for a while, Illinois

2377
01:26:21,375 --> 01:26:23,554
was only allowing indoor cultivation.

2378
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:26,420
Full stop. In California,

2379
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:30,100
the legalization rec the recreational stage,

2380
01:26:31,039 --> 01:26:33,039
left it to it was it was legalized

2381
01:26:33,039 --> 01:26:34,900
statewide, but it left it to the jurisdictions,

2382
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:36,579
meaning counties and cities,

2383
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:37,380
to

2384
01:26:39,145 --> 01:26:40,045
to color in,

2385
01:26:40,425 --> 01:26:42,265
you know, what the policies were gonna be,

2386
01:26:42,265 --> 01:26:44,685
and half of California by land area

2387
01:26:45,145 --> 01:26:46,524
forbids outdoor cultivation.

2388
01:26:47,064 --> 01:26:48,824
So they can't make it illegal because the

2389
01:26:48,824 --> 01:26:49,324
state

2390
01:26:49,945 --> 01:26:51,945
allows it to be legal, but they can

2391
01:26:51,945 --> 01:26:54,125
force it to only be indoors. And

2392
01:26:54,689 --> 01:26:56,369
one can have a conversation about why in

2393
01:26:56,369 --> 01:26:58,069
the world that is. At the municipality

2394
01:26:58,449 --> 01:27:00,210
level. Yeah. It could be city or county.

2395
01:27:00,210 --> 01:27:02,149
So that's that's a a distortion.

2396
01:27:02,770 --> 01:27:03,989
And then you have,

2397
01:27:04,369 --> 01:27:06,949
this whole world of financial incentives,

2398
01:27:07,489 --> 01:27:07,989
and

2399
01:27:08,664 --> 01:27:10,904
I'm the first person to defend and argue

2400
01:27:10,904 --> 01:27:14,185
for financial incentives for energy efficiency and and

2401
01:27:14,185 --> 01:27:14,685
renewables.

2402
01:27:15,304 --> 01:27:17,704
We typically think of them as utility rebates

2403
01:27:17,704 --> 01:27:19,784
for better LED lighting in this industry, but

2404
01:27:19,784 --> 01:27:22,344
there can be Rebates for rebates for sun

2405
01:27:22,344 --> 01:27:22,844
grown.

2406
01:27:23,300 --> 01:27:25,140
And exactly. So you put your finger on

2407
01:27:25,140 --> 01:27:27,319
it. That's what's not happening. And so instead,

2408
01:27:27,619 --> 01:27:29,220
you see I mean, you Google around. You'll

2409
01:27:29,220 --> 01:27:31,779
see growers being handed these large, you know,

2410
01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:33,319
table sized

2411
01:27:33,619 --> 01:27:35,560
cardboard checks for a million dollars

2412
01:27:36,500 --> 01:27:38,119
for putting in LED lights.

2413
01:27:40,185 --> 01:27:41,085
Okay. Maybe.

2414
01:27:41,545 --> 01:27:44,125
But what you're doing is you're subsidizing

2415
01:27:44,505 --> 01:27:45,005
them

2416
01:27:45,545 --> 01:27:47,945
to a large degree. I mean, these are

2417
01:27:47,945 --> 01:27:51,385
giant rebates, and you're making their product even

2418
01:27:51,385 --> 01:27:52,125
more competitive

2419
01:27:52,664 --> 01:27:53,164
to

2420
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:55,840
to, out outdoor grown, to some ground. Feed

2421
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:58,500
feeding the wrong solution. Yeah. And so imagine

2422
01:27:58,800 --> 01:27:59,520
if indoor

2423
01:28:00,159 --> 01:28:03,279
sorry. If if outdoor producers were sorry. If

2424
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:06,319
current indoor producers were given an incentive like

2425
01:28:06,319 --> 01:28:07,619
that to not get,

2426
01:28:08,385 --> 01:28:10,005
10% energy savings,

2427
01:28:10,864 --> 01:28:12,784
but to get 99%

2428
01:28:12,784 --> 01:28:15,425
energy savings by shifting to outdoor cultivation, and

2429
01:28:15,425 --> 01:28:17,024
maybe that million dollar check should go to

2430
01:28:17,024 --> 01:28:19,265
them. And at least level that playing field.

2431
01:28:19,265 --> 01:28:21,024
You know, have no subsidies if you don't

2432
01:28:21,024 --> 01:28:21,685
like subsidies

2433
01:28:22,064 --> 01:28:22,564
or,

2434
01:28:23,140 --> 01:28:23,800
you know,

2435
01:28:24,579 --> 01:28:27,060
make it make it fair and reward all

2436
01:28:27,060 --> 01:28:29,859
the good behavior and not just one. So

2437
01:28:29,859 --> 01:28:32,100
there's that. And then I think lastly, you

2438
01:28:32,100 --> 01:28:33,720
know, there's this issue of cities

2439
01:28:34,500 --> 01:28:36,680
and the trend towards urban cultivation.

2440
01:28:37,605 --> 01:28:39,685
And, you know, you don't I mean, you

2441
01:28:39,685 --> 01:28:41,284
may notice because you're in the industry, but

2442
01:28:41,284 --> 01:28:43,204
the average person driving around in a neighborhood

2443
01:28:43,204 --> 01:28:46,005
with warehouses doesn't realize that there's, you know,

2444
01:28:46,005 --> 01:28:47,465
a Walmart sized warehouse

2445
01:28:47,845 --> 01:28:49,784
that they're driving by that's all cannabis.

2446
01:28:50,405 --> 01:28:50,905
And

2447
01:28:51,630 --> 01:28:53,090
they're there, you know,

2448
01:28:53,470 --> 01:28:56,050
for sometimes the wrong reasons. They're being given,

2449
01:28:56,110 --> 01:28:58,289
you know, sweetheart deals on their taxes

2450
01:28:58,590 --> 01:28:59,890
or, you know,

2451
01:29:00,510 --> 01:29:02,430
lower fees, whatever. And the cities want them

2452
01:29:02,430 --> 01:29:04,050
there because the cities are getting

2453
01:29:04,735 --> 01:29:07,055
local taxes and local permit fees. So it's

2454
01:29:07,055 --> 01:29:09,375
a conflict of interest, and I don't pretend

2455
01:29:09,375 --> 01:29:11,295
to know how often, you know, that's swaying

2456
01:29:11,295 --> 01:29:13,375
things. But the cities have a conflict of

2457
01:29:13,375 --> 01:29:13,875
interest

2458
01:29:14,175 --> 01:29:14,675
in

2459
01:29:15,135 --> 01:29:17,055
wanting the cannabis facilities there, which kind of

2460
01:29:17,055 --> 01:29:18,815
by definition have to be indoors if they're

2461
01:29:18,815 --> 01:29:20,829
in the urban fabric in this world, you

2462
01:29:20,829 --> 01:29:21,810
know, in this country.

2463
01:29:22,190 --> 01:29:22,690
And,

2464
01:29:23,470 --> 01:29:25,550
and then but they're blowing up their carbon

2465
01:29:25,550 --> 01:29:26,050
footprint

2466
01:29:27,150 --> 01:29:29,310
at the same time by by drawing these

2467
01:29:29,310 --> 01:29:31,150
entities because there are, like, there are outdoor

2468
01:29:31,150 --> 01:29:33,630
growers from California who've moved to Oakland. You

2469
01:29:33,630 --> 01:29:35,329
know? And then sometimes these growers,

2470
01:29:36,534 --> 01:29:38,054
you know, get on a JAG and they

2471
01:29:38,054 --> 01:29:39,594
blow out the p the utility

2472
01:29:40,614 --> 01:29:43,175
transformers and they bring in diesel generators to

2473
01:29:43,175 --> 01:29:45,414
run, you know, their grows in these low

2474
01:29:45,414 --> 01:29:45,914
income

2475
01:29:46,215 --> 01:29:48,900
environmentally overburdened areas. And I'm getting off track

2476
01:29:48,900 --> 01:29:51,060
from your question, but it it's a the

2477
01:29:51,060 --> 01:29:51,560
urban

2478
01:29:51,860 --> 01:29:53,300
urbanization of cultivation

2479
01:29:53,780 --> 01:29:55,239
Denver's got 200

2480
01:29:55,539 --> 01:29:56,520
factory scale

2481
01:29:56,820 --> 01:29:58,820
grows in the, you know, in the core

2482
01:29:58,820 --> 01:30:01,460
of Denver. Oakland has about 200 in their

2483
01:30:01,460 --> 01:30:02,680
so called green zone.

2484
01:30:03,675 --> 01:30:05,935
So, I think that's an issue, and,

2485
01:30:07,034 --> 01:30:08,474
I think we can do better, you know,

2486
01:30:08,474 --> 01:30:10,395
in that that the regulators have a role

2487
01:30:10,395 --> 01:30:11,675
to play in,

2488
01:30:12,395 --> 01:30:14,635
leveling the playing field and and not throwing

2489
01:30:14,635 --> 01:30:17,250
obstacles in front of in front of industry

2490
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:18,310
doing the right

2491
01:30:18,850 --> 01:30:20,130
thing. You mentioned that,

2492
01:30:20,689 --> 01:30:23,029
you mentioned interstate commerce earlier.

2493
01:30:23,409 --> 01:30:26,689
And, you know, we've all been joking since

2494
01:30:26,689 --> 01:30:29,270
the since the metal early medical days

2495
01:30:29,795 --> 01:30:33,314
that, it's kinda California versus everybody. Right? Like,

2496
01:30:33,314 --> 01:30:35,635
as like like, if if you want to

2497
01:30:35,635 --> 01:30:38,675
have a cannabis company in your state, you

2498
01:30:38,675 --> 01:30:40,755
need to get up, you need to get

2499
01:30:40,755 --> 01:30:43,380
efficient, and you need to lock in your

2500
01:30:43,380 --> 01:30:44,920
customer base before

2501
01:30:45,220 --> 01:30:45,720
interstate,

2502
01:30:47,140 --> 01:30:50,039
sales is allowed because as because

2503
01:30:50,420 --> 01:30:52,439
California's gonna eat everybody's lunch.

2504
01:30:52,739 --> 01:30:54,659
And, you know, and there there's there's a

2505
01:30:54,659 --> 01:30:57,074
lot to be said for that. And and

2506
01:30:57,074 --> 01:30:59,315
then there there's a lot of challenges to

2507
01:30:59,315 --> 01:31:01,555
be said for that too. But but you've

2508
01:31:01,555 --> 01:31:04,195
looked at the numbers, and and and what

2509
01:31:04,195 --> 01:31:06,435
do you see in your crystal ball as

2510
01:31:06,435 --> 01:31:08,854
far as the impact of interstate commerce

2511
01:31:09,390 --> 01:31:11,969
on the, you know, overall energy consumption,

2512
01:31:12,590 --> 01:31:13,890
for the cannabis industry?

2513
01:31:14,989 --> 01:31:16,590
I haven't been able to put numbers on

2514
01:31:16,590 --> 01:31:18,510
that at this point. There's just not enough

2515
01:31:18,510 --> 01:31:20,750
data, but there's a long discussion in the

2516
01:31:20,750 --> 01:31:23,345
paper about how to think about it and

2517
01:31:23,345 --> 01:31:24,485
all the kind of

2518
01:31:24,864 --> 01:31:27,664
unexpected countervailing factors there and, you know, how

2519
01:31:27,664 --> 01:31:29,345
much we would save or how much we

2520
01:31:29,345 --> 01:31:30,164
wouldn't save.

2521
01:31:30,625 --> 01:31:31,744
You know, there's a lot of as you

2522
01:31:31,744 --> 01:31:34,225
mentioned, California is the big gorilla, and you

2523
01:31:34,225 --> 01:31:35,364
think of all the,

2524
01:31:36,710 --> 01:31:38,630
all the cannabis already. I mean, I think

2525
01:31:38,630 --> 01:31:40,949
California produces like three times as much cannabis

2526
01:31:40,949 --> 01:31:43,510
as Californians consume, something like that. So all

2527
01:31:43,510 --> 01:31:45,270
that's going to other states. California is one

2528
01:31:45,270 --> 01:31:46,710
of the cleaner states because we have a

2529
01:31:46,710 --> 01:31:49,885
clean grid. And so if you do the

2530
01:31:49,885 --> 01:31:52,304
thought experiment and say, well, now we have

2531
01:31:52,524 --> 01:31:54,364
interstate commerce and we're gonna save all this

2532
01:31:54,364 --> 01:31:54,864
carbon

2533
01:31:55,404 --> 01:31:56,864
by having more local production,

2534
01:31:57,324 --> 01:31:58,704
you have to subtract

2535
01:31:59,484 --> 01:32:00,925
that you may just be bringing in the

2536
01:32:00,925 --> 01:32:02,840
same cannabis that's just now on the legal

2537
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,159
side. So it's pretty tricky. This is pretty

2538
01:32:05,159 --> 01:32:08,359
tricky. But I do that said, I think,

2539
01:32:08,359 --> 01:32:10,279
you know, the the there's so much of

2540
01:32:10,279 --> 01:32:12,059
The US that's suitable for,

2541
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:14,859
low carbon outdoor cultivation

2542
01:32:15,664 --> 01:32:18,305
and, you know, interstate commerce is an obstacle

2543
01:32:18,305 --> 01:32:20,704
to that and being able to flow,

2544
01:32:21,025 --> 01:32:21,525
everywhere.

2545
01:32:21,985 --> 01:32:23,425
And I just you know, I can't put

2546
01:32:23,425 --> 01:32:24,945
numbers on it for you, but it's a

2547
01:32:24,945 --> 01:32:26,645
big one. We did look at

2548
01:32:27,345 --> 01:32:27,845
legalization

2549
01:32:28,545 --> 01:32:30,465
more broadly kind of adjacent to the question

2550
01:32:30,465 --> 01:32:31,125
you're asking,

2551
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:34,599
how much carbon might that save in its

2552
01:32:34,599 --> 01:32:37,239
own right? And it's rather small. You know?

2553
01:32:37,239 --> 01:32:39,319
It's difficult to model, difficult to think through.

2554
01:32:39,319 --> 01:32:41,739
But, basically, the big benefit of legalization

2555
01:32:42,599 --> 01:32:43,819
is less the landfill

2556
01:32:44,625 --> 01:32:46,864
and or or I'm sorry. There's more landfill.

2557
01:32:46,864 --> 01:32:49,765
That's an offsetting effect. Right? Because mandated landfill

2558
01:32:50,064 --> 01:32:52,305
happens in the legal market, not in the

2559
01:32:52,305 --> 01:32:54,704
other one. So there's, there's some ways in

2560
01:32:54,704 --> 01:32:56,944
which it can increase emissions while the packaging

2561
01:32:56,944 --> 01:32:58,860
is one that you mentioned before. You know,

2562
01:32:58,860 --> 01:33:01,680
there's, one new paper says there's more packaging

2563
01:33:01,739 --> 01:33:04,460
in regulated markets than in the illicit market

2564
01:33:04,460 --> 01:33:05,360
and in pre,

2565
01:33:06,060 --> 01:33:06,560
preregulated

2566
01:33:06,939 --> 01:33:07,439
markets.

2567
01:33:08,939 --> 01:33:10,720
But also on the upside,

2568
01:33:11,899 --> 01:33:12,640
you have,

2569
01:33:13,835 --> 01:33:16,155
from legalization, you have you you're taking the

2570
01:33:16,155 --> 01:33:16,655
interdiction

2571
01:33:17,275 --> 01:33:19,755
out of it. And so all that cannabis

2572
01:33:19,755 --> 01:33:20,574
that's destroyed

2573
01:33:21,034 --> 01:33:23,595
and all that embodied energy and carbon is

2574
01:33:23,595 --> 01:33:25,675
in principle, you know, in in a rarefied

2575
01:33:25,675 --> 01:33:28,149
case, not happening anymore. So that's so it's

2576
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:29,529
something like an 8%

2577
01:33:29,829 --> 01:33:32,789
reduction in national carbon footprint from legalization in

2578
01:33:32,789 --> 01:33:33,930
its own right. But

2579
01:33:34,310 --> 01:33:35,449
that said, legalization

2580
01:33:35,989 --> 01:33:38,170
is kind of a necessary but not sufficient

2581
01:33:39,750 --> 01:33:41,670
milepost on the route to all kinds of

2582
01:33:41,670 --> 01:33:44,835
other policies. Right? You can't incentivize better practices

2583
01:33:45,215 --> 01:33:46,114
in an illicit

2584
01:33:46,494 --> 01:33:47,875
market. And today,

2585
01:33:48,574 --> 01:33:51,054
right now, about the carbon about little more

2586
01:33:51,054 --> 01:33:52,895
than half of the national carbon footprint is

2587
01:33:52,895 --> 01:33:54,574
in the illicit market and a little less

2588
01:33:54,574 --> 01:33:56,439
than half is in the legal market, by

2589
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:57,640
the way. So there's a lot there's a

2590
01:33:57,640 --> 01:33:59,640
lot to address still. Yeah. There is a

2591
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:00,760
lot to address. On the other side, but

2592
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:02,840
it's interesting how that comes out. It's not

2593
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:04,760
necessarily obvious that it would break down like

2594
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:06,600
that. Much more of the production is in

2595
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:08,760
the illicit market, but also the illicit market

2596
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:10,984
has a much larger share of outdoor than

2597
01:34:10,984 --> 01:34:13,064
the legal market does. So that's part of

2598
01:34:13,064 --> 01:34:13,564
why,

2599
01:34:14,024 --> 01:34:16,185
even though, you know, 75, 80 percent of

2600
01:34:16,185 --> 01:34:18,685
the production is in the illicit side nationally,

2601
01:34:19,305 --> 01:34:19,625
the,

2602
01:34:20,185 --> 01:34:22,505
the carbon footprints are more more fifty fifty

2603
01:34:22,505 --> 01:34:24,505
ish because there's more outdoor in the illicit

2604
01:34:24,505 --> 01:34:25,005
side.

2605
01:34:27,149 --> 01:34:29,090
So to to wrap us up here,

2606
01:34:29,630 --> 01:34:32,350
we have given folks a whole lot of

2607
01:34:32,350 --> 01:34:35,069
data points and perspectives, and so many of

2608
01:34:35,069 --> 01:34:35,569
them,

2609
01:34:36,430 --> 01:34:38,324
you know, they they they're lubricated, and they've

2610
01:34:38,405 --> 01:34:39,925
got pivot points, and they depend on the

2611
01:34:40,085 --> 01:34:41,685
so so it can be it's very much

2612
01:34:41,685 --> 01:34:44,164
a, you know, a complex web, and and

2613
01:34:44,164 --> 01:34:46,005
as you address this, then the other part

2614
01:34:46,005 --> 01:34:48,885
moves. And so let's let's let's distill this

2615
01:34:48,885 --> 01:34:49,385
down

2616
01:34:50,164 --> 01:34:50,645
to,

2617
01:34:51,125 --> 01:34:53,445
some, I don't know, marching orders or or

2618
01:34:53,445 --> 01:34:55,920
a loving suggestion It's probably a little less

2619
01:34:55,979 --> 01:34:56,479
authoritarian.

2620
01:34:57,819 --> 01:35:00,300
So for for the two key groups who

2621
01:35:00,300 --> 01:35:02,699
who we're talking to now. Right? Because, obviously,

2622
01:35:02,699 --> 01:35:04,139
we'd have a lot to say for the

2623
01:35:04,139 --> 01:35:06,939
politicians, but they're probably not still listening to

2624
01:35:06,939 --> 01:35:07,599
the episode.

2625
01:35:07,994 --> 01:35:09,295
The people who are listening

2626
01:35:09,675 --> 01:35:11,054
are cannabis consumers

2627
01:35:11,914 --> 01:35:12,414
and,

2628
01:35:13,114 --> 01:35:15,854
and, the cannabis business owners, the cultivators.

2629
01:35:16,475 --> 01:35:17,375
And so,

2630
01:35:17,835 --> 01:35:19,755
let's take the business first, and then we'll

2631
01:35:19,755 --> 01:35:21,909
talk about then then we'll talk to the

2632
01:35:21,909 --> 01:35:24,090
consumers. So so, you know,

2633
01:35:24,470 --> 01:35:27,430
if if if if a indoor cultivator and

2634
01:35:27,430 --> 01:35:29,289
they've got their heart in the right place,

2635
01:35:29,829 --> 01:35:32,470
and they have just heard our conversation, and

2636
01:35:32,470 --> 01:35:33,609
they're like, damn.

2637
01:35:34,125 --> 01:35:36,204
I think that at the very least, I

2638
01:35:36,204 --> 01:35:37,904
need to start doing stuff

2639
01:35:38,444 --> 01:35:40,545
to decrease my energy consumption.

2640
01:35:41,164 --> 01:35:43,164
It'll be better for the company, and it'll

2641
01:35:43,164 --> 01:35:45,484
be better for the environment. And I I

2642
01:35:45,484 --> 01:35:47,060
wanna help there be a planet for my

2643
01:35:47,060 --> 01:35:48,979
kids. Okay? So they're they're they're heading their

2644
01:35:48,979 --> 01:35:50,979
hearts in the right place, but they already

2645
01:35:50,979 --> 01:35:51,800
have an indoor,

2646
01:35:52,899 --> 01:35:54,439
they already have an indoor cultivation.

2647
01:35:54,899 --> 01:35:55,720
And so

2648
01:35:56,180 --> 01:35:59,140
what would you give to them as the

2649
01:35:59,140 --> 01:35:59,640
first

2650
01:35:59,985 --> 01:36:02,085
steps on a path that are attainable?

2651
01:36:03,345 --> 01:36:05,744
Yeah. Good good questions. And and I have

2652
01:36:05,744 --> 01:36:06,324
to say,

2653
01:36:07,104 --> 01:36:08,545
you know, I've had a lot of emails

2654
01:36:08,545 --> 01:36:11,284
and things from producers over the years, and,

2655
01:36:12,380 --> 01:36:14,380
more than a handful have said they've changed

2656
01:36:14,380 --> 01:36:16,139
their business model. You know, they've looked at

2657
01:36:16,139 --> 01:36:16,960
this and

2658
01:36:17,340 --> 01:36:20,300
over time, they've shifted their their industry towards,

2659
01:36:20,300 --> 01:36:22,539
you know, greenhouse and then outdoors. So in

2660
01:36:22,539 --> 01:36:25,354
a strategic longer term term way, there's no

2661
01:36:25,354 --> 01:36:27,034
shame in that, and it's something that's done

2662
01:36:27,034 --> 01:36:28,154
all the time. And you can look at

2663
01:36:28,154 --> 01:36:30,814
the large industries, and they're definitely shifting

2664
01:36:31,274 --> 01:36:31,774
their,

2665
01:36:32,314 --> 01:36:33,055
you know,

2666
01:36:33,675 --> 01:36:35,774
their center of gravity from from

2667
01:36:36,234 --> 01:36:38,960
indoor towards outdoor. So there's that. The longer

2668
01:36:39,260 --> 01:36:40,060
term, I think,

2669
01:36:40,539 --> 01:36:42,560
nearer term, you know, look at

2670
01:36:43,340 --> 01:36:45,100
get the energy audits, you know, really look

2671
01:36:45,100 --> 01:36:46,000
at your processes,

2672
01:36:46,940 --> 01:36:47,840
think about

2673
01:36:48,539 --> 01:36:51,119
I don't wanna say greedy, but, like, maximizing

2674
01:36:51,420 --> 01:36:51,920
yield,

2675
01:36:52,314 --> 01:36:54,314
you know, is it everything? Run numbers more

2676
01:36:54,314 --> 01:36:57,694
carefully because maximum yield isn't necessarily maximum profitability,

2677
01:36:57,914 --> 01:36:59,514
you know. Like, things are you know, it's

2678
01:36:59,514 --> 01:37:00,014
expensive

2679
01:37:00,715 --> 01:37:02,474
to push, you know, a crop, and I'm

2680
01:37:02,474 --> 01:37:04,814
not pretending I know more than these cultivators

2681
01:37:04,954 --> 01:37:07,869
who've spent their, you know, their professional lives,

2682
01:37:07,869 --> 01:37:09,869
you know, dialing this in. But but be

2683
01:37:09,869 --> 01:37:11,729
sure you've got good info, good advice.

2684
01:37:12,750 --> 01:37:14,909
Think twice at it. Think twice about, you

2685
01:37:14,909 --> 01:37:17,869
know, your your current practices. Think about Henry

2686
01:37:17,869 --> 01:37:19,649
Ford and how you can do better.

2687
01:37:20,225 --> 01:37:21,444
So I think that's as

2688
01:37:21,744 --> 01:37:23,505
a as a near term about as good

2689
01:37:23,505 --> 01:37:25,524
as we can get. And,

2690
01:37:27,744 --> 01:37:29,585
And then so how about the consumer then?

2691
01:37:29,585 --> 01:37:32,405
Because, you know, the consumer, it's interesting because

2692
01:37:32,590 --> 01:37:34,590
the consumer is both the most powerful and

2693
01:37:34,590 --> 01:37:35,489
the least powerful.

2694
01:37:35,869 --> 01:37:37,150
Right. They're they're at the end of the

2695
01:37:37,150 --> 01:37:39,409
long chain, so it's really hard to influence

2696
01:37:39,470 --> 01:37:41,710
any of it. But because it's all being

2697
01:37:41,710 --> 01:37:44,689
made for us, it actually does empower us.

2698
01:37:44,829 --> 01:37:47,685
But I definitely don't think that, consumers are

2699
01:37:47,685 --> 01:37:49,685
using their power at all. So so what

2700
01:37:49,685 --> 01:37:52,264
would you say to us as consumers

2701
01:37:52,885 --> 01:37:55,625
about some kind of action we can take

2702
01:37:55,764 --> 01:37:58,324
to to to to move the the the

2703
01:37:58,324 --> 01:37:59,944
percentages in the right direction?

2704
01:38:00,949 --> 01:38:02,810
Yeah. I think the consumer is

2705
01:38:03,189 --> 01:38:05,909
doesn't realize their power in as in so

2706
01:38:05,909 --> 01:38:09,510
many cases. Right? Energy, climate more broadly, and

2707
01:38:09,510 --> 01:38:11,510
and all kinds of other issues. So I

2708
01:38:11,510 --> 01:38:12,010
think

2709
01:38:12,484 --> 01:38:13,545
talk to your budtender,

2710
01:38:13,925 --> 01:38:15,545
ask questions, be curious,

2711
01:38:16,965 --> 01:38:17,704
ask for,

2712
01:38:18,404 --> 01:38:20,324
you know, ask for data on your prod

2713
01:38:20,404 --> 01:38:21,864
on the different products,

2714
01:38:22,324 --> 01:38:24,564
make it known that it it matters to

2715
01:38:24,564 --> 01:38:25,385
you. And,

2716
01:38:25,810 --> 01:38:28,050
you know, consumers can change their behavior and

2717
01:38:28,050 --> 01:38:30,069
that changes the market, and there are consumers,

2718
01:38:30,850 --> 01:38:32,949
it sounds like like yourself, you know, who

2719
01:38:33,090 --> 01:38:33,329
who,

2720
01:38:34,210 --> 01:38:35,750
prefer Sungrown and,

2721
01:38:37,010 --> 01:38:39,649
hunt for the product that's just right for

2722
01:38:39,649 --> 01:38:40,469
them. Or,

2723
01:38:41,204 --> 01:38:42,804
I mean, I don't think it's even necessary,

2724
01:38:42,804 --> 01:38:44,645
but come down and auction quality, whatever. It's

2725
01:38:44,645 --> 01:38:47,304
just or make quality part of your definition

2726
01:38:47,444 --> 01:38:49,925
of sorry. Make environment part of your definition

2727
01:38:49,925 --> 01:38:52,404
of quality. Right? It's that doesn't seem like

2728
01:38:52,404 --> 01:38:54,244
a stretch. Like, what is quality? What is

2729
01:38:54,244 --> 01:38:56,085
quality of life? Isn't part of quality of

2730
01:38:56,085 --> 01:38:58,579
life being, you know, not having our our

2731
01:38:58,579 --> 01:39:01,300
homes burned in wildfire seriously, you know. So

2732
01:39:01,300 --> 01:39:03,219
so I think the consumers, you know, being

2733
01:39:03,219 --> 01:39:05,699
aware and educating themselves in is hard. Right?

2734
01:39:05,699 --> 01:39:07,699
Because there's very little information out there for

2735
01:39:07,699 --> 01:39:09,300
them and and it's not being provided by

2736
01:39:09,300 --> 01:39:11,694
industry. I think also being aware of greenwashing,

2737
01:39:11,835 --> 01:39:13,215
you know, there's a lot of greenwashing,

2738
01:39:13,515 --> 01:39:15,534
unfortunately. I have a page on my site

2739
01:39:15,675 --> 01:39:17,435
that your listeners are welcome to look at

2740
01:39:17,435 --> 01:39:19,935
with examples of the greenwashing that happens. And

2741
01:39:20,074 --> 01:39:22,475
it shouldn't be on the consumer to root

2742
01:39:22,475 --> 01:39:23,454
that out and,

2743
01:39:23,939 --> 01:39:25,479
clean that up. But, unfortunately,

2744
01:39:26,899 --> 01:39:29,380
there aren't really regulators, you know, going after

2745
01:39:29,380 --> 01:39:32,020
this, but that that's a a problem for

2746
01:39:32,020 --> 01:39:33,239
consumers is,

2747
01:39:33,779 --> 01:39:35,619
even like the notion of terroir, you know,

2748
01:39:35,619 --> 01:39:37,864
like so we've got cannabis grown in a

2749
01:39:37,864 --> 01:39:38,925
windowless factory,

2750
01:39:39,385 --> 01:39:41,725
not in soil with no sun, no rain

2751
01:39:42,505 --> 01:39:43,005
in

2752
01:39:44,024 --> 01:39:44,524
California,

2753
01:39:44,824 --> 01:39:45,885
in in,

2754
01:39:47,545 --> 01:39:49,784
Arcadia, you know, and it's called Humboldt. You

2755
01:39:49,784 --> 01:39:51,690
know, like, what is what is that? So,

2756
01:39:51,930 --> 01:39:53,850
maybe there's something there that I'm not understanding,

2757
01:39:53,850 --> 01:39:55,150
you know. I guess the water,

2758
01:39:55,610 --> 01:39:57,130
but the water has been so heavily treated

2759
01:39:57,130 --> 01:39:58,329
by the time it gets there. So I

2760
01:39:58,329 --> 01:40:00,729
think that's something for consumers. And, you know,

2761
01:40:00,729 --> 01:40:02,409
and back to the producers for a second,

2762
01:40:02,409 --> 01:40:04,604
I think another thing they can do is,

2763
01:40:04,765 --> 01:40:07,085
I mean, it's under this banner of being

2764
01:40:07,085 --> 01:40:10,845
curious and inquisitive and also forthcoming. You know,

2765
01:40:10,845 --> 01:40:11,664
share data,

2766
01:40:12,284 --> 01:40:13,265
work with researchers,

2767
01:40:15,725 --> 01:40:16,545
you know,

2768
01:40:16,949 --> 01:40:20,310
benchmark your carbon footprint against your competitors and

2769
01:40:20,310 --> 01:40:21,750
see, like, well, how am I doing? Because

2770
01:40:21,750 --> 01:40:23,210
benchmarking is a really powerful

2771
01:40:23,670 --> 01:40:25,510
tool to see, well, what what are other

2772
01:40:25,510 --> 01:40:27,670
people? What are the best practices out there?

2773
01:40:27,670 --> 01:40:29,029
And, you know, go for those. There is

2774
01:40:29,029 --> 01:40:31,975
a lot of documentation on best practices within

2775
01:40:31,975 --> 01:40:33,975
indoor, within greenhouse. So I think that's something

2776
01:40:33,975 --> 01:40:35,515
to do. And consider

2777
01:40:36,454 --> 01:40:39,175
product labeling, especially if you're doing better, you

2778
01:40:39,175 --> 01:40:40,855
know, then get the word out there and

2779
01:40:40,855 --> 01:40:43,015
work with the dispensaries and work with these

2780
01:40:43,175 --> 01:40:44,715
the value chain

2781
01:40:45,030 --> 01:40:48,229
to get transparency for consumers. And if consumers

2782
01:40:48,229 --> 01:40:50,149
are asking for it and producers are pushing

2783
01:40:50,149 --> 01:40:50,649
it,

2784
01:40:51,109 --> 01:40:53,210
then consumers will start to be more informed

2785
01:40:53,270 --> 01:40:55,829
about, you know, about carbon footprint. So that's

2786
01:40:55,829 --> 01:40:58,170
something that everyone, you know, all the actors,

2787
01:40:59,005 --> 01:41:01,005
from the regulators to the growers to the

2788
01:41:01,005 --> 01:41:01,505
consumers,

2789
01:41:01,965 --> 01:41:03,885
could do more in because it's pitiful. You

2790
01:41:03,885 --> 01:41:06,704
know, there's just there's such an information vacuum

2791
01:41:07,005 --> 01:41:08,305
facing, everybody,

2792
01:41:08,605 --> 01:41:11,025
you know, all from soup to nuts there.

2793
01:41:11,390 --> 01:41:12,130
Right on.

2794
01:41:12,430 --> 01:41:13,710
Well, thank you, Evan. You know,

2795
01:41:14,510 --> 01:41:16,430
we easily could have done a couple more

2796
01:41:16,430 --> 01:41:19,149
hours on this topic, but we you know,

2797
01:41:19,149 --> 01:41:21,869
the goal was not to inundate people too

2798
01:41:21,869 --> 01:41:23,489
much, but but to really

2799
01:41:23,869 --> 01:41:25,090
illustrate to folks,

2800
01:41:26,425 --> 01:41:27,725
you know, how how

2801
01:41:28,265 --> 01:41:28,765
tenacious

2802
01:41:29,145 --> 01:41:30,125
energy consumption

2803
01:41:30,824 --> 01:41:31,805
is all through,

2804
01:41:32,425 --> 01:41:35,385
the chain and to start having us think

2805
01:41:35,385 --> 01:41:37,945
about it whether our our end goal is

2806
01:41:37,945 --> 01:41:38,430
to actually

2807
01:41:41,630 --> 01:41:44,510
electrical usage in our present operation as step

2808
01:41:44,510 --> 01:41:45,010
one,

2809
01:41:45,550 --> 01:41:47,229
I think that is, you know, it's an

2810
01:41:47,229 --> 01:41:50,030
honorable pursuit. And, and even though we don't

2811
01:41:50,030 --> 01:41:52,590
wanna look at anything that is, you know,

2812
01:41:52,590 --> 01:41:55,524
chastising of cannabis, well, I I think it's

2813
01:41:55,524 --> 01:41:57,444
I think it's damn time. So thank you

2814
01:41:57,444 --> 01:41:59,925
so much for giving up your personal time

2815
01:41:59,925 --> 01:42:02,164
to join us today on shaping fire and

2816
01:42:02,164 --> 01:42:04,585
to to share your, like,

2817
01:42:05,045 --> 01:42:06,184
wildly in-depth

2818
01:42:06,484 --> 01:42:08,984
understanding of the data behind our industry.

2819
01:42:09,449 --> 01:42:11,770
Your your your stories, your insight, and definitely

2820
01:42:11,770 --> 01:42:13,710
your good share are definitely appreciated.

2821
01:42:14,329 --> 01:42:16,510
My pleasure. Thanks for your great questions.

2822
01:42:17,130 --> 01:42:17,630
Excellent.

2823
01:42:18,090 --> 01:42:20,489
So dear listener, if you would like to

2824
01:42:20,489 --> 01:42:20,989
follow-up,

2825
01:42:21,449 --> 01:42:24,189
and learn even more from from Evan Mills,

2826
01:42:25,345 --> 01:42:27,104
the best way to do that is to

2827
01:42:27,104 --> 01:42:29,585
go to his website, which is is kinda

2828
01:42:29,585 --> 01:42:32,385
like a, it's kinda like a repository of

2829
01:42:32,385 --> 01:42:35,265
of his research, and the the graphics there

2830
01:42:35,265 --> 01:42:35,925
are just

2831
01:42:37,119 --> 01:42:41,280
absolutely educational and, illustrative and fantastic. So so

2832
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:42,880
even if you're not even if you wanna

2833
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:44,320
know more, but you're not in the mood

2834
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:46,640
to read a whole bunch, by goodness gracious,

2835
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:48,159
go to his website and look at the

2836
01:42:48,159 --> 01:42:50,579
graphs. You'll learn so much so fast. So,

2837
01:42:51,215 --> 01:42:54,175
the website for that is evan, e v

2838
01:42:54,175 --> 01:42:55,875
a n, dash

2839
01:42:56,255 --> 01:42:59,534
mills, m I l l s, dot com.

2840
01:42:59,534 --> 01:43:02,354
Evan mills dot com. And also,

2841
01:43:03,369 --> 01:43:05,610
if you are driving or something, you can,

2842
01:43:05,930 --> 01:43:06,829
definitely go

2843
01:43:07,289 --> 01:43:10,030
to the shaping fire website for this episode,

2844
01:43:10,489 --> 01:43:12,250
number one twenty, and,

2845
01:43:13,210 --> 01:43:15,145
and you can grab the link there. You

2846
01:43:15,145 --> 01:43:17,064
can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire

2847
01:43:17,064 --> 01:43:20,104
podcast and subscribe to the show at shapingfire.com

2848
01:43:20,104 --> 01:43:21,725
and wherever you get your podcasts.

2849
01:43:22,104 --> 01:43:23,944
If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate

2850
01:43:23,944 --> 01:43:25,304
it if you would leave a positive review

2851
01:43:25,304 --> 01:43:27,244
of the podcast wherever you download.

2852
01:43:27,679 --> 01:43:29,600
Your review will help others find the show

2853
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,600
so they can enjoy it too. On the

2854
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,840
Shaping Fire website, you can also subscribe to

2855
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:36,319
the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis

2856
01:43:36,319 --> 01:43:38,579
news, exclusive videos, and giveaways.

2857
01:43:39,199 --> 01:43:40,880
On the Shaping Fire website, you will also

2858
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:43,814
find transcripts of today's podcast as well. Be

2859
01:43:43,814 --> 01:43:45,895
sure to follow on Instagram for all original

2860
01:43:45,895 --> 01:43:47,675
content not found on the podcast.

2861
01:43:48,055 --> 01:43:50,854
That's at shaping fire and at shango lows

2862
01:43:50,854 --> 01:43:51,594
on Instagram.

2863
01:43:51,975 --> 01:43:53,895
Be sure to check out Shaping Fire YouTube

2864
01:43:53,895 --> 01:43:56,694
channel for exclusive interviews, farm tours, and cannabis

2865
01:43:56,694 --> 01:43:57,194
lectures.

2866
01:43:57,610 --> 01:43:59,850
Does your company wanna reach our national audience

2867
01:43:59,850 --> 01:44:01,070
of cannabis enthusiasts?

2868
01:44:01,530 --> 01:44:04,010
Email hotspot@shapingfire.com

2869
01:44:04,010 --> 01:44:06,090
to find out how. Thanks for listening to

2870
01:44:06,090 --> 01:44:09,229
Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shango Los.