- Happy New Year.
It's been so cold over the entire country this week here on
Vashon Island where I live, windchill got well below zero,
and some of the southern states had windchill
of like negative 40 and negative 60 degrees Fahrenheit.
That's ridiculous when it gets this cold,
my old house is miserable.
The poor insulation here just lets the cold right through,
and I have to bundle up
and keep moving until the weather changes.
Several parts of the country are without power, too cold
and no electricity.
Makes life dangerous and unbearable.
The parts of my island that have no power have put their
freezer foods outside in the icy cold to stay fresh.
Some folks are grilling their defrosting expensive meat
and seafood so they can enjoy eating them
before losing them, in case the weather warms
before the electricity comes back.
Some folks are even leaving town to stay with relatives.
And believe it or not, this is the theme
of today's shaping fire episode.
Just like humans get miserable
and crappy weather, so does the microbe
life in your cannabis soil.
Too much water, too little water. Not enough sunshine.
Too much sunshine. Too little carbon.
Too much carbon, too hot, too cold, frozen. Yikes.
I imagine the microbes also putting all their little foods
out in the front yard and having the neighborhood over
for a big freezing barbecue.
Yeah, that's right. Get ready for a lot
of anthropomorphizing of microbes today,
'cause microbes are people too.
If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation
and technique efficiently
and with good cheer, I encourage you
to subscribe to our newsletter.
We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out,
delivered right to your inbox, along
with commentary on a couple
of the most important news items from the
week, and videos too.
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you don't miss an episode.
You are listening to Shaping Fire.
And I'm your host, Shang Los. Welcome to episode 112.
My guest today is Michael Delegue.
Michael Delegue earned his master's from Colorado State
University's horticultural department in 2020,
where he researched different facets
of plant microbe interactions, including nematode,
biocontrol methods, microbial legacies,
resulting from replanting fields,
and even the caterpillar gut microbiome.
Now serving as the Director
of microbiology at Impella Biosciences.
His research surrounds the overlap between biological
and biochemical agricultural inputs targeted towards both
crop and soil health properties.
Cannabis sativa is one of their model organisms
for agricultural research,
and one of Michael's projects is
to examine the functional bacterial species recruited
by cannabis sativa in the rhizosphere during the first set.
Today we will discuss biostimulants
and plant growth regulators
and how to approach them
as regenerative cannabis cultivators.
In the second set, we will discuss the care intending
of micro life in the rhizosphere.
And during the third set,
we will choose companion plants for soil diversity.
And finish the episode with an indictment
of the 24 hour light strategy.
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Michael.
- Hi, Chenko. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm very grateful to be here. Awesome.
- Really glad that you made time for us.
So let's get right into it.
You know, um, cannabis farmers are always looking
for like a leg up, uh,
something winning to add to their recipe.
And, um, a lot of us look for different things
that could be determined to be bio stimulants.
And then a subsection of those people are, are people mostly
who follow this show, who are, uh,
regeneratively minded farmers.
So, so they're, they're, they're looking
for natural biostimulants versus synthetic ones.
Let's start out the show by talking about
what biostimulants are generally,
and then we'll start to tease apart the synthetic
ones from natural ones.
So, so that's my first question for you.
Um, what are bio stimulants and, um,
and what are the kind of kinds of attributes that we look
for them to impart on our cannabis plants?
- Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I like to think
of biostimulants as a really large umbrella term
with several different kind of facets of, of products
or inputs that people can use
or they can take advantage of
that might be in a natural system.
Um, but I guess in essence, you know, they're,
they're very much performance enhancers for plant growth
and metabolism is how I kind of define biostimulants.
- So, so when, so when we say performance, um, um,
are we talking about specifically like the, the, um,
the gathering of nutrition, the processing of nutrition, uh,
improved photosynthesis, essentially all of the plants,
um, biological systems get, get kind of like tweaked up the,
the governors turned up on all of them,
so they're running either more efficiently
or faster, is that's the idea.
- Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it.
And, you know, different parts of biostimulants will, uh,
uh, upregulate different parts of the plant metabolism or,
or growth, uh, rates and things like that.
Um, but yeah, I think, uh, the, uh,
primarily I look at these as, you know, biological products,
things like microorganisms and,
and biochemicals, um, things that are usually plant derived
or discovered in nature
and then used, uh, um, to upregulate the plant metabolism,
whether that's with hormones
or, um, amino acids, fulvic acids, things like that.
- I like this term up-regulate.
Um, uh, I've heard it before, but I don't use it regularly.
And, um, I like it both for the biology conversation,
but it also sounds like a great, um,
euphemism for getting high.
Like, like, oh man, I need to go up-regulate .
- That's awesome. . Uh, I like that a lot.
- So, so let, let's, let's tease apart now the synthetic
and the, and the natural biostimulants
because we're, we're mostly gonna be talking about, um,
natural biostimulants today.
Um, so WW when I
discuss bio natural biostimulants
with other regenerative growers,
we're usually talking about, um, you know, this
or that plant that we are going to, you know, do a,
a a a tea of or an extract of or a or a
or a, you know, a top dress of something like that
because we want, uh, some, uh,
naturally occurring biochemical that's in the plant.
We want that to seep into our biosphere.
And then when at the conventions, when I talk
with the synthetic bio stimulant sales guys,
their products have always got these like
multisyllabic names that, that, um,
sound very scientific.
And sometimes they've, you know,
they've also been named at some marketing name,
and so they have got a, a, a real different vibe to them.
Um, perhaps they're perhaps the natural ones
and the synthetic ones are both trying
to do the same things, but I'm,
I'm guessing they have got different attributes that,
that you can share with us.
- Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I would think like, um, a lot of times when I,
when I think about synthetic biostimulants, whether
that's something that is, you know, uh, discovered
through a natural process,
and then, you know, one compound is isolated,
it really seems a lot to me,
like the pharmaceutical industry,
we find one active ingredient, we purify it, you know,
it shows in a lab and on the bench
that this is effective at whatever
we're trying to, uh, alleviate.
Um, and then all of the, uh, you know,
medicine is built off of that compound.
Um, and that's kind of
how I look at like the synthetic aspect of that, where
potentially there's a, there's a chance
of missing some other minor chemicals
or, you know, metabolites
that might be from a natural product extract, um,
that would be missed, uh,
when things are just synthesized in a lab versus, uh,
extractive through a natural process like making it a
compost tea or, or breaking down other, um, forms of,
of organic inputs like, uh, fish waste
or even, you know, corn waste, things like that.
- Hearing you describe it, it actually reminds me a lot of
how we talk about the entourage effect
and the difference between isolates and whole plant.
It sounds a lot like the synthetic, um,
the synthetic bio stimulants are often like isolates.
They are an isolated biochemical
that we're gonna apply the plant one way
or another, versus the compost tea kind of flavor.
That's more like taking a whole plant medicine
because we're getting all these, these random, uh,
plant constituents that, um,
that we may not have even researched yet,
but we know that as a symphony, they,
they interact really well with the human body.
Um, what do you think about that?
- Yeah, I would agree with that.
I think it's really similar to
how people talk about the entourage effect of, of cannabis
and, you know, terpenoids and things like that.
Um, the same thing goes for, you know, whether these,
these compounds, whether a synthetic
or natural bio stimulant is,
is directly influencing the plant.
There's a, there's a good chance it is,
it's also really helping out like the soil
microbiome most likely.
Uh, things like, you know, the upregulation
of the can be a factor of, uh, an increased rate
of, you know, soil respiration or soil organic matter,
or just general beneficial soil ecological components.
Um, you know, things like amino acids, uh, the things,
or one of the, um, smaller terms
underneath the larger bio stimulant umbrella
can become building blocks
for protein synthesis in both plants and microbes.
Um, so by providing that source that might be, you know,
deficient in the soil
or, um, you know, out competed by other microbes, if a,
a grower can add that in there, um, whether
that's helping the plant directly
or the soil ecology,
the whole system has benefited at least,
um, from what we've seen. Mm-Hmm, .
- Mm-Hmm, . So, um, you know, I,
I rec I do recognize that I've got a certain amount
of prejudice against synthetic biostimulants simply
because they are synthetic.
And I know that, um, that is often unfair of me just to,
um, discount things because they're synthetic.
Um, you know, outside of the fact that just on its face,
I prefer organic gardening and organic food
and organic seeds because I like to, um, you know,
have my garden be as close to nature as possible.
Um, is there really any, you know, a priori reason to
discount or not include synthetic bio stimulants?
And, and what, what I'm gonna compare it to is, you know,
we often talk about, you know,
bought bottled salt fertilizers on this show about
how they kind of force feed nutrition to cannabis plants.
And by doing that, um, you know,
you might get a robust plant,
but you're also getting a plant that is out of balance
and over the long term is more susceptible to plants
and can have all sorts of other problems
because you're, you're forcing it right now.
Um, is there, is, are there any mechanisms like that
with synthetic bio stimulants that are a reason
to reject them because of how they function instead
of just me being prejudiced because they are not organic?
- No, I, I understand where you're coming from with the, um,
the synthetic prejudice and I, I kind
of adapt similar principles,
like in my own gardening and, and things like that.
Um, I guess I wanna ask you a question about, uh,
what might be considered, I guess, synthetic
to take a step back here.
Um, I'm familiar with a process, uh,
for an amino acid product that is, um,
taking waste from the fishing industry.
So lots of shrimp shells and,
and crab shells and things like that.
And then they're put into a reactor.
A couple enzymes are added to break down the, the fish waste
or the, you know, the crustacean waste.
Um, and then the end product is both, uh, you know,
amino acids and, and chitin and other things like that.
Um, so that is, you know, synthetically, uh,
the breakdown process is synthetically increased
with these enzymes in the reaction.
Um, but if you were to kind of slowly compost, you know,
shrimp and crab shells and,
and things like that in your soil, you might have a similar,
uh, endpoint product or, you know, beneficial effect
of the soil system.
Um, so I guess, how do you feel about that kind of process?
Is that what you call that more synthetic kind
of towing the line between the two of them?
Or just is that purely synthetic
'cause you know, lab equipment and bioreactors are involved?
- Yeah, it's an interesting question to kind
of tease the definition.
Um, uh, definitely at, at from the top,
I'll say the word synthetic is a messy term.
'cause it, it's, it's kind of like a, it's, it's,
it's a bucket i of ideas that are different
to pretty much everybody who hears the word.
And it is best applied on a, on a case by case basis
based on what you are, you know,
based on this little example though, um, it sounds like
that is a, um, a, a non,
- It's tricky, right?
- Yeah, it is tricky. It sounds like
it's a natural process, right?
It, it sounds like you're, you're just processing
by adding other natural processes.
So it's, you've got, you've got natural, natural
naturally occurring product A
and you're a adding naturally occurring products B and C
and, you know, you put them together
and it causes the breakdown to happen into a, you know,
a usable nutrition faster.
Um, you know, if we were to, if we were to go long on this
and make it the, the, you know, the, the brunt of the show,
I would probably have to ask a bunch of questions about
what are the natures of the inputs and,
and where that line might be drawn between, um, you know,
adding, adding inputs that, that, um,
either inhibit natural reactions
or create non-natural reactions
to get whatever you're trying to, you know,
produce, produce.
But, but, um,
that's a slippery slope right there, of course, right?
- . Absolutely. Yeah.
Um, and yeah, I think, I mean, you know,
the processes would, would, uh, you know, uh,
theoretically occur in nature just a little bit longer time
for those enzymes to unlock some of the,
the polymers like things in, you know, the
exoskeletons of crustaceans.
Um, but yeah, we are synthetically
or, you know, in this type of process development, uh,
somebody would be synthetically upregulating
or increasing the rate of decomp to make these things, um,
you know, in a more plant usable form.
That way the plants and the soil microbes have
to expend less energy, um, on breaking down things,
and they can just be, you know, slurped up
and used, uh, efficiently.
Um, so yeah, I think it kind of tells the line
between synthetic and natural.
But one thing that is, is kind of cool in processes such
as these, um, I know there's similar ones for corn
and soy, uh, based biostimulants.
Um, they do put, uh, a use
and end use product to things
that might be considered waste material prior to, um,
these types of reactions.
Mm-Hmm.
- And I guess we just wanna make sure that
that waste material is handled in a responsible way, if,
if we're gonna produce it at all.
- Absolutely. And, you know, when it is not waste material,
when it's, you know, host material for a,
a crustacean farmer or a, a corn
or so farmer, we wanna make sure that, uh, those plants or,
or animals are being treated
and, uh, you know, uh, the management practices
of cultivating those are also not gonna influence the inputs
that we wanna feed our plants
later. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm,
- .
So, um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, some of the,
the natural biostimulants that come up, uh,
the most often in, uh, cannabis cultivation.
I'm thinking, uh, humic
and phobic acids, seaweed extracts, uh, different types
of microbial innoculants
and then amino acids, which you've already mentioned.
Um, are these all, are, are these different types
of natural biostimulants working on, um, different, um,
uh, biological systems of the cannabis plant?
Or are they all essentially acting on the same
system, but in different ways?
- Yeah, they would definitely, um, act on, you know,
the same system as a whole, the plant, the soil,
the microbes and whatnot.
But every, every part,
everything you just mentioned has a slightly different, uh,
effect on the biome from what I understand.
Um, you know, helix and FXs can be great sources
of organic matter for both the plant
and the soil microbes to use as inputs.
Uh, whereas things like seaweed extracts often contain plant
hormones like cytokine and content
and, um, um, I think some phosphorus
or potassium as well.
Um, so we get a little bit of plant nutrition from there,
as well as some, you know, plant hormones, uh, applied
outside of the plant body rather
than being produced within it.
Um, microbial innoculants, I think these guys, uh,
really depends on your soil
and the history of that, that system
or your indoor cultivation system.
Um, but those were primarily, you know, uh,
if they're administered in a drench, be, uh,
benefiting the root systems of the plants as well
as the neighboring microbes that might already be there.
And then we have, you know, foliar spray microbial
inoculants too that help, um, outcompete things
that might be negative to plant performances like
molds and stuff like that.
Um, so yeah, it, it really is a whole system of, of, uh,
effects, you know, different, different building blocks, uh,
from the bio stimulant world will help different areas
of the plant, as you mentioned.
And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a fun big umbrella term
because there's so much going on underneath the,
the umbrella that is biostimulants Mm-Hmm.
- , it's also sounds like it's a very fine line
between biostimulants and nutrition, um,
because some of the, you know, some
of the positive attributes
that you mentioned from seaweed extracts are different, um,
you know, nutritive, um, substances.
Is, is there a line, is there a scientific line
between nutrition and biostimulants, or,
or do they kind of like see into each other?
A lot of times
- I think the line is maybe dotted as opposed to, uh,
you know, less of a gradient, less of a firm line, um, where
that, where a lot of bios,
stimulant compounds can have some form of MPK
or even micronutrients in there.
Um, but then when we look at plant nutrition,
those are products with NPK is almost the biggest number on
the label besides the product name for the most part.
Um, so that's kind of how I see the separation between,
you know, nutritional inputs versus bio
stimulant based inputs.
But it is kind of a gray area
or a gradient where you have some trickling effects of,
of the, um, you know,
amino acid type biostimulants having some, some form of NP
or K in them as well. Yeah. At
- Using that definition, it, uh,
biostimulants becomes really, really close to, um,
like, like trace nutrients and trace minerals.
It's like, oh, if, if you're not talking about NPK
and you're just talking about everything else, you're,
you're talking about, you know, biostimulants, um,
including things that we don't get in, in, you know, kind
of targeted generic fertilizers that we add
because we wanna round out the ri the rhizosphere with,
with, um, essential micros.
- Yeah, absolutely. And, um, one other thing
to mention too is, is, you know, whether
or not, uh, well, another, another reason I guess that the,
the line between nutrition
and bio stimulation is maybe a little bit more blurry at
this point in science, uh, is
because things like, um, certain bacteria have enzymes
to unlock, uh, unavailable forms of phosphorus such
as calcium phosphate, so unavailable for plant uptake.
Um, so, you know, there's no nutrition in in that type
of bacterial product,
but it can help unlock nutrition
that might already be in your soil.
Uh, things like Michal products too, I think from
what I've seen, um, also sometimes have a,
a phosphorous content as well.
So, um, you know, somebody might apply a Michle product
for the first time and see a really great, uh, you know,
flowering boost in their cannabis plants,
and it's hard to attribute that to the michie being present
or the, the increased amount
of phosphorus being also available
for the plant or, or probably both.
- Yeah. I wish that when we try a whole bunch
of new things at the same time
and we get good results,
we could just straight up ask the plant which
one caused it, my friend.
- That would be amazing. And yeah, I wanna, I wanna talk
to the soil microbiome as well.
I'm looking forward to those developments
maybe with ai .
- There we go. So, uh,
before we move on from Biostimulants, um, let's, uh,
let's bring this conversation
and make it like real, um, real rubber hits the road.
So for, for the cultivators who are listening, um,
who are like, okay, I understand the difference
between the synthetic and the biostimulants as much
as we can get to definitionally, I like the idea of
offering natural biostimulants to my plants.
Um, what are some that you recommend from the natural world
that regenerative farmers can, um, use at home
that will have, you know, reliably good effects?
You know, some of the, some of the stuff is so obscure
and its impact is so small
that you can have a debate about whether some
of these did anything at all in particular, but,
but what are a couple like tried
and true naturally occurring bio stimulants that, um,
that our listeners can, um, you know, explore for,
for pretty assured benefit?
- Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it really depends on
where your plants are gonna be going if it's going into a
hydroponic or controlled environmental system, um,
versus a soil system, um, you know, plays a role.
But I am biased to the, the soil microbes
and the root adhering microbes
or the plant growth promoting microbe.
- So, so are we here at shaping fire? So ?
- Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so yeah, I mean, from what, from
what I've seen in both research
and at home cultivation, uh, the sooner microbes get
introduced to a plant root, um, I like to think about it
as a really good protective and enhancing form.
Uh, one of my favorite analogies here is think of that,
that radical, that that firstly emerged plant root from your
seed or your clone, um, being like an empty seat at a table
with, you know, let's say a hundred seats.
Um, the, the plant is gonna be exuding root ex exits all
over that table and, um, through the roots.
And those are basically like adding different types
of food sources to the, the table here.
Um, the sooner that those seats
of the table can be colonized with plant benefiting
or soil ecology benefiting,
or even just free living, uh, microorganisms, um,
maybe not colonized, but present and taking up space
and competing for resources, the more likely, um,
the cultivator, uh, would be, you know,
not seeing things like plant disease.
Um, the, if the seeds can be full filled
with things like plant benefiting microorganisms, um,
whether they're from a compost system, living soil, uh,
indigenous microorganism, cultivating, uh,
or even a biological inoculate you can buy off on a shelf,
I think that is probably the best way to really prime young
or new plants for, uh, you know, a successful harvest cycle.
Um, filling those seats up with the table, uh,
allowing those resources to be used by things
that are maybe symbiotic
or mutualist with the plants to, you know,
the benefit is, is a feedback loop.
Um, whereas a pathogen might only, you know,
consume a root exit until it can get in high enough numbers
to penetrate the plant cell and then become pathogenic.
Uh, the less seats at that table that are
for things like fusarium or phytopthora
or pythium, um, the less likely, uh, you know,
that plant is gonna have a negative effect.
- I really like that seats at a table, uh, um, example
that I can really envision that.
And so, so your first answer is to, you know, add a bunch
of, uh, you know, of, of indigenous microbes, um, so
that the seats of the table can get filled with, um, with,
uh, probiotic folks before anything pathogenic shows up.
And, um, you know, uh,
and there's a, you know, there's a, there's a,
there's a range of ways that we talk about on this show
to add microbes and, and,
and you're like, just, you know, add them,
add them right away as soon as, as soon as the plant starts.
Um, for the second one, is there something
that might be more nutrition based instead of like,
having good neighbors based like microbes
that you would also recommend as a, um,
naturally occurring bios stimulant?
- Yeah, so I think my, my bias is really gonna show
with this answer, ,
but, um, uh, you know, I talked about the probiotics, right?
I also think that prebiotics are just as important,
especially in, in soilless systems or,
or, you know, uh, near sterile systems, right?
Hydroponics and things like that.
Um, plants evolve roots
with their relationships with microbes.
Uh, Dr. White and all
of his research surrounding Oph Fiji has really been, uh,
a beneficial disruption in, in agricultural research.
Yeah. And I think that, uh, a lot
of growers have tried really hard
to maintain a sterile system, which, you know,
your plants don't want sterile systems.
They're often, you know, exuding, uh, cakes
and cookies, sugars
and carbon into the, the surrounding soils to try
to get microbes to colonize there.
So, uh, a long way to answer your question,
I think like prebiotics, things like organic materials,
humic, fulvic acids, um, we know what those can do
to benefit the plant and,
and how they are benefiting the soil microbiome
and how that's benefiting the plant is still being
kind of flushed out.
Um, but I do think that, uh,
your plants are gonna benefit from these compounds
that you're applying, whether
or not they're for the plant or the bacteria.
And, uh, usually the application rates from things,
whether you're whipping up a compost tea
or doing like a, a plant extract
or purchasing something, um, there's enough to go around
for both the plants and the microbes.
- Fantastic. I love that.
When, when we keep on coming back to, you know, grab plants
that are already in your yard
and let them, um, decay in water, you know, spin that
for 36 hours and then pour that back on your plants.
I love that cycle, bringing back, um, you know,
what's already in your yard, the plants,
the grass clippings, the forest duff, whatever it is,
incubate it for a little bit
to make those microbes super abundant
and then just pour it back on your plants.
- Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that,
and it's, it's always, you know, a fun term is like kind
of bio prospecting being out.
Ooh, I like that.
In, in soil, uh, in the woods, in the forest,
or anywhere that, you know, it's okay to kind of,
I'm gonna use the word sample from, um,
I know you guys have talked about indigenous
microorganisms here.
Um, but yeah, like the, the ability to kind of
collect some microbial diversity, um, from maybe a forest
or, uh, somebody with a
better historical soil health practice than maybe the plot
you inherited, um, is also a great way to, you know, add
that microbial diversity.
Um, if you, you know, we have these like notions of,
of plant micro symbiosis, uh, in science where, you know,
we wanna look at a really happy cannabis plant
and then collect some soil microbes from its roots
and then take that home and apply it to our cannabis plants.
So they do well too. Um,
but there's a lot of functional redundancy in the,
the rhizosphere microbiome world, whether that's a palm tree
or a cannabis plant or some grass.
Um, so you might even be able to get some type
of beneficial microbial function from sampling something
like grass, uh, and applying it to your, to your home grow,
or, you know, making a compost tea
out of it, or a soil slurry.
- Right on. So, uh, so dear listener,
if you're very interested in, in moving, uh, these microbes
around, um, sit tight,
'cause we're gonna be coming back to this topic again
with set two or in set two.
So Michael, um, I wanna move us on past biostimulants now,
uh, to what I consider one of their cousins
that I know less about, which is, uh,
plant growth regulators.
And, you know, I, I first got turned on to, uh,
plant growth regulators kind of as a, as a slur, as a dis
when I would come across like really rock hard, um,
indoor Rockwell buds,
and that, that, you know, I, I would squeeze them.
And as a, you know, as a, as a lifelong outdoor grower,
when you squeeze my flowers, there's,
there's some give to them.
Whereas these were like, like literally rocks.
And I was all like, what, what kind of cannabis is this?
Right? And people are like, you know,
because I tend to hang out with, you know, organicy farmers,
they'd say something like, ah, it's those PGRs
that they use, you know, and I'm like, I don't know
what those are, but, but I,
I certainly don't want any part of that.
And, and over time I realized it's true that synthetic PGRs
and, and what they have a tendency to do
to the plant are not something that I'm normally going for.
But then I started to realize, um, while,
while studying the soil food web, that there are actually
naturally occurring, um, biochemicals in plants that,
um, you know, that we can wild craft that also are pro, um,
plant growth regulators so that maybe you can get, you know,
harder flowers that have got a, a market attraction
and an aesthetic attraction in ways that don't also, um,
you know, injure the plant
and make it, you know, need
to be grown in a sterile environment instead of the yard.
So, so, so I'm gonna ask you, number one, would you,
would you, would you explain for us
what plant growth regulators are
and, um, where we may find them in,
uh, the natural world?
- Yeah. Um, so the way I kind of, uh,
understand plant growth regulators would be just kind of,
um, hormones, uh, the, the plant hormones,
things like ox oxygens, giin, cytokinin,
and, uh, you know, natural sources
of those things like seaweed is a really, um, common
input used for cytokinin, uh, PGRs.
Um, I think, um, like we talked about a little bit earlier,
uh, you know, when you do the wildcrafting,
you do the natural pro, uh, process and,
and take your plant inputs or get materials
and do the extraction yourself,
you are likely getting things that might be missed, uh,
as opposed to one, an oxen is purified in a lab
and dried out into a powder
and then, you know, mailed to you in a tube
to dip your plant roots in
before rooting them .
Um, yeah, I mean, I, the way I kind
of see 'em would just be plant hormones, uh,
whether they're natural or synthetic.
I think they can be helpful for growers
and, you know, helpful for making, uh, deadlines
and yield improvements and quality
improvements and things like that.
Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I still kind of am in the school
of thought of, you know, these,
these natural processes like breaking down, uh,
organic inputs, um, would, we're,
we're probably missing something when we're applying just
to pure compound, but, uh, further, you know,
science needs to prove that .
- So, so if we're talking about ge, you know,
getting these oxen and cytokines and giin and, and,
and putting them on,
and they we're getting 'em from plants,
it sounds awful lot like we're talking about biostimulants
again, and, and, and,
and perhaps there is an argument to be made
that plant growth regulators
and natural bio stimulants are all in the bucket of
plants that have got chemicals, hormones,
and nutrition that are also used by the cannabis plant
that we just wanna wild craft,
or what's that term you used, bio prospect, um,
you know, on our properties.
And, and then just allow them
to either degrade in their basic form
or incubate them with, you know, oxygen
and then apply them to our plants.
It, it sounds like it's the same system
just using different vocabulary.
- Yeah, I would agree with you on that.
I do think, like, you know, the PGR term fits, fits nicely
underneath the umbrella term
that is biostimulants in my world, um, and maybe the world.
Uh, but yeah, you know, you think about, um,
how these compounds, um, ma mainly,
you know, the, the plant is naturally producing these things
when it meets roots.
There's ox oxygens being produced inside the plant, um, to,
to signal those mar stem cells to turn into roots.
Um, but having, you know, furthered science, uh,
in agriculture, we as growers can, can use these things
to get effects that we want to, I know, um, in a lot
of the ornamental crop industry things like, uh,
anti gis are sprayed on, you know, flowers
to keep them like tight and, uh, you know, not too lagy
or stretched out from the pot.
That way they make a nice compact, bushy, you know, ponta
or a zinnia or something like that.
Um, so yeah, it, it's interesting to think about the use
of PG in products that are gonna be consumed
by people rather than just enjoyed by, uh,
like aesthetically like flowers and, and things like that.
Um, and I think, um, I need to do more reading on,
on, you know, the, the, the, uh, the consumption of things
that might be residual on flower if the plant wasn't able
to use all them and, and, or even just surfactants
to get them to spread as well.
- So when I have talked with other
regenerative farmers about the naturally occurring pgs
that they use, I only have ever gotten one response either.
Either the farmers don't think of them in that way,
and so they're just using degraded plant, you know,
compost teas or, or spun aerated teas.
So they'll, they'll either say nothing, they don't,
they don't use one intentionally
or they will say banana peels.
And so, so, um, are, is there any, oh,
this is kind of a nice pun.
Is there any low hanging fruit that you recommend where,
where we can go for, um, the, the hormones
that have the effect on the cannabis plant
that we're looking for?
So we don't have to go to synthetics, for example,
if we want tighter flowers and a more compact overall plant.
Uh, do we wanna go to a banana peel
or are there things that we may have access to
that you think might be, um, you know,
better for us to go after?
- Yeah, I think ultimately, I don't have any sort
of materials off the top of my head on,
on things like anti gires.
I know seaweed is a good one for cytokine in.
Um, I think people have used, uh, you know, honeys for,
for ox oxygens, whether that's, I'm not sure if
that's actually a root increaser
or if it's just a good antimicrobial for, uh, you know,
pathogens that might infect the plant before it can root.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm a huge composter, um,
and I'm a big fan of verma compost as well.
Yeah. Um, so I think, you know, doing
that stuff in the backyard when space allows, uh,
there's indoor systems that are really great too.
I have a, a friend that did like a three bucket stack system
where the worms were in the, the bottom,
the new food waste went in the top,
and when they ran out of food, they would kind of dig up
and kind of make it a closed loop system.
So there are ways to kind
of get those organic materials broken down depending on, um,
the space you might have.
Um, yeah, I, you know, I, the other kind of school
of thought too is when I was a lot younger, I,
I was always told, you know, dig a hole, six
or seven feet underground, bury a couple dead fish there,
and that's where we'll plant our cannabis plants the
following spring, right in the fall.
Uh, and it's been cool to kind of enter more
of the sciencey realm of this kind of stuff
and seeing like, oh, well, yeah,
the fish breaks down into a, a ammonium
or some form of an H four or three, um, and the emulsions
and, you know, they, they provide nutrition
from those breakdown products.
Um, so I just, just, one thing
that I love about the cannabis science industry is,
or just cannabis science in general, is kind of seeing, um,
you know, old school of thought growers
with these really wise practices
that we are just now starting to understand, uh,
and can be measured scientifically with, with, you know,
how does a fish break down in the soil
and what types of plant inputs does it turn into?
- Yeah. All, all of this old school, um, cultivation magic,
you know, eventually science catches up with it
and it's like, oh yeah, I guess, I guess, you know,
the old hippies were right in what they were doing here.
Absolutely. It's like, yeah, yeah.
Uh, everything old is new again, so Right on.
Well, uh, let's, let's wrap up this first set here.
Um, we're gonna take a short break and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue.
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You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shose,
and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue.
So during the first set, we talked all about, um,
bio stimulants and where to find them in nature, as well as,
um, the idea of plant growth regulators.
And we kept on coming back to this idea that, um,
what we wanna do to help, um,
our cannabis plants the most is to help the rhizosphere
to make sure that the nutrition
and variety of microbes are incredibly varied, um,
our our indigenous, so
that they survive in our local natural environment,
and that we can bio prospect them all over our own property
and near us, uh, by just going to other plants
that we already have locally.
And, um, not only does that save us money,
but we know that these plants
that are already surviving locally are already covered in,
um, indigenous microorganisms.
So saves us money
and is exactly the tool for the job
to help you have your best grow ever.
So here in set two, we're gonna talk about the care
and tending of the microbe community
that's in your rhizosphere, right?
So these are, these are, um, all of the residents
of the rhizosphere, the root zone, um, that make up the,
the, the, the soil food web that is within the soil.
As we all know, the, the soil food web also is
above the soil, and it also takes place in water.
But specifically we're talking about this, this neighborhood
of the roots of the cannabis plant.
So when I was listening to Michael Delegue on, um,
our friend Layton Morrison's show, um, um, uh, he
and I, I guess I'm talking to the audience, Michael,
and to you kind of third person.
You, you were talking on Layton's show, um, about your, um,
uh, uh, love of, of bi biochar,
which we're big fans of on the show as well.
And, and, um, and,
and I really liked how you kind of
anthropomorphized, uh, the microbes.
'cause you were talking about how, um, uh,
how biochar has got all these like, you know, ridges
and places to live and,
and they've got these, um, these, these environments
that the, the microbes can set up housing and, and,
and where their nutrition grows and,
and how it just kind of makes like
for this perfect neighborhood.
And, and I always like to think about my pots that way too,
or, or, you know, the soil that,
that I wanna make a good neighborhood for my plants
to grow a bit as well.
So, so, so you, you
and I clearly enjoy anthropomorphizing microbes,
which, which I can support.
Um, let's go ahead
and start just kind of generally with this idea of,
of creating neighborhoods that have got the kinds
of attributes in the soil that, um,
that these neighborhoods can build on.
What is the nature of soil structure
that makes good rhizosphere?
- I think a good balance of, um, sand, silt
and clay obviously is, is a great way to, you know,
that definition of soil makes a good structure
for the microbes to colonize.
But I think a really important thing
that is often overlooked, uh, would be things that, uh,
we call max MAC, uh, microbially forms of accessible carbon
or microbe accessible carbon.
Um, your plants are, you know,
constantly depositing these things into the soil
through root ex exits, uh, as well as, you know,
any organic matter, um,
and different types of breakdown processes in soil
or other systems, um, can provide these forms of max, uh,
carbon sources, food sources
for the microbes to be in there.
Um, you know, biochar being carbon based is a really
great form of this.
Other things like fulls
and, um, um, different like, you know,
cellulose breakdown products are another great way to kind
of feed microbes in the soil.
- So, um, so I is the primary, uh,
i i is the primary, I'll say the first, not the only,
but is the primary attribute
of creating a good neighborhood, making sure
that there's lots of these max rounds.
So there's there always high quality carbon for them to eat
that, like at the top of the list.
- I would, I would put that at the top of the list just
because, uh, if you apply something like a biological to a,
a near sterile system, I'll,
I'll never call it hydroponic system sterile, um,
just because there's microbes everywhere.
Microbial ubiquity. Mm-Hmm. .
Um, but we do have, you know, the, the notion of, uh, a lot
of that stuff can be wasted if there's not food sources to,
to feed the microbes.
You know, you hear about with your gut
and gut health prebiotics with probiotics.
Um, that's, you know, feeding also the things
that might be resident to your system, whether
or not they're applied, uh, from a bottle
or from, uh, indigenous microorganism hunting. Mm-hmm,
- .
So, so what are, um, sources of these macs
that we can wildcraft and,
and how do we, how do we process them into it?
I mean, you know, the biochar, um, you know, we can use
as a soil amendment and some people like to crush it up and,
and, um, and, you know, top dress it into their water
so it slowly works their way in.
But give us, give us some more idea of how
to think about these Macs and,
and where we can bio prospect them into our cultivation.
- Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I'm going
to do a callback to biostimulants, right?
There's lots of Maxs, uh, in different tiers of bios,
stimulant products or, or, uh, things that you can get
or procure naturally with wildcrafting.
Um, and essentially, you know, the, uh,
the plant is also feeding your microbes.
So as long as your plants are health, uh,
maintained optimal health and nutrition,
there is gonna be some source of,
of max in the system from the root exodus too.
Um, but you will, you know,
plants also can re-uptake root ex exits.
Uh, so there is a degree
of plant microbe competition for these food sources.
Um, but going back to that kind of old, uh, wisdom
cultivation, uh, you know, thinking, um, people
that I hear a lot of people have really strong opinions
about applying molasses, uh, as a,
as a input and during flour.
Um, and I've always kind of understood that
as we're feeding the soil microbes rather than we're,
you know, giving sugar to help
increase flour synthesis or something like that.
- Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've talked on this show many times
how, you know, the adding of molasses into the pot.
Um, what you're doing is throwing your, your, um,
your pot out of balance.
What you wanna do is, if you're gonna use the molasses,
is feed the, feed the microbes in your,
in your aerated compost brewer,
let them eat the molasses there and incubate them.
So now you have a whole bunch of them.
And then put that compost tea that's not hot anymore into
your, your rhizosphere.
Is, is that the, are those
the steps that you're referring to? Yeah,
- Yeah.
I think that that is probably the best practice to do it.
Um, for those who, you know, aren't able to kind
of have the lead time to brew cup a compost tea and,
and feed it sugar and whatnot, I think, um,
just a very diluted form,
an irrigation solution can also kind of benefit those,
those microbes that might be in your roots.
- Right on. I wanna push you a little bit on specificity
because you said that there are, um, you know,
various plants that we can wildcraft
where we can get the max from.
Um, just for examples to get us started,
because we, we all know that we can like, you know,
Google it or ask GPT or something,
but from you, will you give us three mac rich plants
that we might be able to wildcraft just so you know, people
who just want to jump on it, know what, where to start?
- Y you know, I think, um, I'm always gonna go back
to compost and those breakdown processes.
Um, I, I would, when I say, you know, you ask
for specific plants, I don't know that I have any
of those off the top of my list,
but, um, I, I think, you know, carbon
and nitrogen sources, uh, essentially, um, can help
increase available max, uh, whether, whether
or not they are being added to your system
or the nutrients, you know, the compost pile
or something like that provided.
Um, but in terms of kind of going out and,
and foraging up a bunch of plants
and making a tea out of that, I,
uh, I would have to do some more
- Research.
Right on, you know, your, your hesitation kind
of like suddenly re-con contextualized everything for me is,
is it potentially the answer to the question I asked that,
um, these Macs are in everything
because carbon is a building block.
So, so long as I'm starting with a, a local healthy
thriving plant, it's gonna have max in it.
So just use whatever I have a lot of around me
and use a variety of plants that are around me.
And then if I wanna up it, we'll then go ahead
and do some online research
and find out the types of plants that are more rich in max.
But it, it, I'm starting to get the idea,
since we keep on coming back to compost,
that the max are everywhere and,
and so just use whatever you have.
- Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. Thank you.
Um, and another kind of way to put it, you know,
or another, I guess using whatever you have should,
should be used with caution a little bit as, as a lot
of people know, you know, if you look for, uh, broken down,
dried out plant material, um, you wanna make sure
that didn't come from anything diseased.
Uh, obviously, you know, you'd want that
to be fully broken down and in a composting system
or a, a heat breakdown type of format, uh,
before you add something that might be, you know,
degraded a, you know, a leaf loss due
to xanthomonas bacteria in the leaf or something like that.
Right. We don't wanna reintroduce that to our system,
but, um, you know,
plant health is very important too when you're,
when you're kind of wildcrafting
- Right. On
- All that to say.
- Alright, so, so when we're talking about the care tending
of microbes, obviously we want to include a lot
of these Macs so that there, there's a, a varied buffet all
through the rhizosphere, um, for, for, um, uh,
for all the varieties of, of, of residents to eat.
So, so let's go, um, so long as you think we've covered
that well enough, let's go beyond the nutrition
for the microbes eating the carbon,
and let's talk about some of the other, um, attributes
of soil structure that might also be, um, um,
beneficial to, to the rhizosphere.
And, and again, I might be over anthropomorphizing here,
but in my notes I put like shelter reproduction space,
you know, you know, um, uh, non-carbon nutrition, like,
like the idea
of shelter may not actually exist in soil in the
rhizosphere, but, but it seems like it should exist there
because you have got more,
more predator residents in the biosphere
and more passive residents in the biosphere.
And, and, you know, normally life forms need
to take shelter when they reproduce.
And so, you know, I I'm very willing
to be very wrong on this, right?
But, but is it, tell us a little bit about
how the community interacts
and if there are attributes of our soil
and amendments that, that potentially provide more
of this shelter and reproduction space
and non-carbon nutrition.
- Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, uh, the best place
for plants to over winter, um, in terms
of seasonal changes would be in the roots
and in the, in the kind of skeletonized plant bodies
that are no longer actively growing.
Um, that's a great place for microbes to over winter
and be ready to, uh, be introduced
to your plants when you're planting them in the springtime.
And then I just do wanna circle back a little bit on the max
stuff and say one more thing.
Sure. Um, I wanna go back to, uh, I wanna quote Dr.
Elaine Ham from the soil food web
and say, you know, what do microbes love, uh, sugars, right?
And that's why the cakes
and cookies that are the root exodus are really kind of,
you know, being deposited by the plants in theory to,
to colonize or recruit microbes to the, to the root zone.
Um, the other thing that I wanted to mention was going back
to that, that big open table analogy with empty seats.
Um, uh, another kind of enhancement of this theory is,
is like, uh, if that table's being catered and,
and there is only, you know, slabs of meat being put on
that table, only, only, uh, you know,
carnivore type people are gonna be sitting down there
to consume that stuff, right?
So we also wanna provide a lot of diverse inputs of, of max,
whether that is, uh, different types of compost tea
or sugar sugars like molasses
or, you know, just com, uh, broken down leaves
and pine straw and stuff like that.
Um, but the important thing is by providing a lot
of different forms of microbial accessible carbon,
we're feeding, uh, lots
of different functional microbes in the soil, right?
So if, if there's, um, if that table's being catered
with vegetables, meat,
and a little bit of both, we're gonna have omnivores,
vegetarians, vegans, and,
and carnivores all sitting at that table.
Uh, the same applies in my, in my head at least
to the plant roots, right?
So if the, the tomato root is only exiting the,
the same compounds, tomato plants exude,
then only a few types of microbes
or functional microbes are gonna be able
to use those food sources.
Um, so the grower can kind of apply different forms
of max molasses, compost, stuff like that,
or even companion planting, um, to provide a lot
of different food sources because, uh,
the general thinking in microbiome sciences health is very
closely associated with high diversity in a microbiome.
- Alright, so with my next question,
I'm gonna set up a little, um,
a little example first about EM one,
and, you know, a lot of folks like to use em one
and, um, the idea is like, okay, you can buy em one,
which is a, a blend of microbes
and you can add it to your plants
and your plants will love it.
And if you want to expand the bottle so your, your,
your bottle lasts longer, there's, uh,
usually instructions on the back of how you can do a, um, a,
a simple aerated tea so that you can
expand what's in your bottle.
But, but eventually, if you just keep on brewing it
and brewing it, um, the, the microbes that are differently
com aggressive and competitive, the balance
that is in the actual em one balance that they recommend,
it'll eventually get out of balance.
And so you have to go and, you know, get a new bottle
of em one and, and start over
with the the actual balanced product.
Um, so, so using that as the example, um, if we are
grabbing, uh, lots of different plants that are local
to our area that are thriving
and we are, um, either degrading them
or extracting them into some sort of extract
or aerated compost tea, is there any, um,
awareness we should have about the balance
of those microbes
and nutrition that we're actually putting into the pot?
If, if, if, if we do want to have our, um,
rhizosphere life to be in balance
and we influence that balance by
what we're adding from our compost pile as a tea, do we need
to be worried about throwing off the balance
of the residents of the, of the rhizosphere
because we are feeding out of balanced, uh, teas?
- Uh, yeah, actually that is, that is a major concern.
And, um, it's cool that, that a product like
that has those types of instructions for kind of increase,
you know, bang for your buck.
Um, but yes, I think, uh, my best advice,
and this is maybe my opinion,
but based on some science, um,
would be when you're making those types of products, try
to use them up, um, you know, do, do your research
and say you, you've found a lot of sources
to say 48 hours is the ideal incubation
or aeration time for a compost t try to use that up, uh,
pretty, pretty quickly, uh, after it's ready to go.
Um, and I think that is based on the thinking that, um,
all types of microbes, whether there's one thing in a bottle
or a thousand things from a sample
of compost have different, uh, growth and metabolism rates.
So, um, when things are grown together, uh,
the term is like co cultured.
Um, the faster growers are always gonna be able to have that
add advantage towards the other members of that, you know,
biome, um, because they're just, uh, genetically advantaged
to eat faster and divide faster and break down faster.
Right. So you can see things like, um,
if you let a compost t sit for two weeks, uh,
maybe if it's aerated, um, as opposed to one week, I bet
that that microbiome completely shifts Yeah.
Just based on the ability
for those faster growers to become dominant.
And I think, you know, the diversity was probably the
highest within the first 72 hours of brewing a compost tea.
And that starts to probably taper off just based on the way
microbial microbe ecology kind of works in that system.
Um, there's only so much food around, right?
And, uh, if the fastest eaters are, you know, kind
of throwing their elbows at the other ones and
and eating it faster, they're gonna become dominant.
And maybe those aren't the plant growth promoting
microbes that you're in search for.
Maybe they're just really good at eating
those Macs. Mm-Hmm. ,
- I like that idea that, that as you're,
as you're brewing it for 36 to 48 hours and you're,
and you're pulling it out of the bucket, right?
Then you have got so many aerated microbes
and they've all just been getting all the aeration
and nutrition that they could possibly want,
which just means like everybody is fed and thriving
and at the starting line,
and that's when we want to give it to our plants.
But the longer we get away from that starting line
and let that compost tea sit for one day, two day,
they're all, they're all already racing and competing
and beating each other up and eating each other.
And so by day, you know, three
or four, you, you're fully at survival of the fittest at
that point, and you're not providing a nice, even
balanced array of nutrition and microbiology.
You're actually providing them something imbalanced
that's going to have some sort of effect on your, um,
on your soil environment. Does that sound about right?
- Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and the way to say
that is in microbiome sciences we use a
term called alpha diversity.
Um, so if I have a basket of fruit
and there's 10 pieces of fruit in there
and nine of them are apples
and one of them's an orange, I have
really low alpha diversity.
But if I have 10 pieces of fruit in a basket
and one's an apple, one's a grape, one's a banana,
blueberry, everything is a different thing.
Um, the parts of a hole are all different.
That is really high alpha diversity.
So the longer something like a compost tea might sit, um,
it's likely that you'd be lowering your alpha diversity
where those fast growers
or good eaters are gonna become dominant. Um,
- Right on.
That's, that is super interesting.
And because I wanna look this up after the show.
Are you saying alpha A-L-P-H-A?
- That is correct, yes. - Alright, cool.
That's a very interesting idea. That is new to me
- And on compost teas as well.
Um, I, I collaborated on something when I was in school, uh,
where a colleague was making verma compost tea from worm
castings and finished compost.
Um, and this person was able to, uh, grow it up.
I think they did a 48 hour aeration.
Um, and then they boiled half of it
and then they applied the other half untreated.
And they actually found that, I think it was a basil host
or a tomato host, um,
those plants benefited more from the boiled compost tea.
Um, so this is not me suggesting
that everybody should be boiling their compost tea,
but maybe on their aeration time they were able to,
you know, increase the populations of things
that might not directly benefit plants
and actually compete for plants for those beneficial parts
that get released when we make a compost tea.
Um, so it was kind of interesting to think about, you know,
boiling or trying to get the microbes out of a compost tea.
The ones that can't survive boiling, uh,
actually made the plants do better.
Um, presumably from a reduced, uh, amount
of microbe competition for the same things the plant wants
that kind of get released from the aeration
process in compost tea.
- Wow. Man. Boiling compost.
You just kind of blew my mind there.
Um, I'm gonna have to think a lot about that.
But, but what I think about it immediately is that if, if,
if we've talked constantly throughout this episode
so far about, um, the biodiversity of the teas
and, you know, of the carbons
and of the plant sources that we continually pour into our
plants, that if I'm gonna make aerated compost teas
and I'm also gonna do cold extracted, uh, teas,
like I don't see any reason why, uh, having a big pot
of boiled plants that I then let cool
and then apply to the plants.
'cause I'm gonna get a whole DA whole different, um, cast
of characters in that.
And all I'm doing is increasing my diversity
by using all three different types of teas.
- I would agree with that. Yeah, definitely.
You know, the, the, the non boiled compost tea in the study
I'm referring to is, is kind of a balance of both probiotic
or just bacterial members and prebiotics, whereas likely
after it was boiled, you know,
it wasn't measured chemically,
but that was probably just more, uh, I,
I'm gonna use the term prebiotic,
but just, uh, kind of those, the metabolites
that are released from the compost tea brewing process, um,
ready for the, the plant to slurp right up rather than kind
of have to share with the microbes.
- Right on. Alright, so, um,
before we move on to our next topic,
I wanna hit something one more time
because, um, you know, um, I've heard you kind of allude
to the fact that one of the good things
that biochar does in the soil structure is to, you know,
not only provide, um, you know, the carbon for food,
but also, um,
it's like a unique housing structure, if you will.
'cause 'cause it's got all these nooks and crevices.
Um, is, is there anything, and the answer may be no,
but I'm gonna try to squeeze you on this anyway, is,
is there anything else that we should consider adding
as an amendment to our soil
that is less about nutrition
and having it break down to provide, you know, foods,
which is what most of the stuff we do, um, is for,
but instead is something that we are gonna amend the soil
because it actually provides, um,
a physical mechanism that is good for the microbe life?
- Yeah. Uh, I for that, I think, you know, the,
the biochar are a really good approach to that.
And I think I'll always recommend if people aren't already
doing this to get a starting soil test
before you start applying your innoculants or,
or inputs to that as well.
Um, but I think in terms of kind
of like housing the microbes
or giving them like a, a nice place to live, um, you know,
again, I'm biased towards the soil systems as opposed
to like a hydroponic system,
but when we think about no-till, um, not only is
that really kind of maintaining, uh, soil, you know, carbon
that's stored from those plants, um,
but that's also keeping those, those houses
for the microbes dormant in the plant roots ready to be, uh,
you know, introduced to the fresh roots that would be kind
of germinating in the same soils.
So, like my, me personally, um, I have one
of my experimental, you know,
garden beds in my backyard that I,
I've never tilled it for and I'll plant seeds
or directly transplant things there.
And it seems to be, um, you know, speculative
that those plants get a little bit of a boost, uh,
because the, you know, i,
I do apply heavy compost and things like that.
There's a lot of factors we're not considering.
But I think a big thing is, you know,
those microbes have overwintering structures
and they were evolved with the plant to survive
through these, these, uh, you know,
cold temperatures and hot temperatures.
Um, so yeah, I think, uh,
people should maybe experiment more with no-till
or, you know, companion planting
and things along those lines.
- Yeah, that certainly makes sense.
Uh, regarding our experience
with no-till every year the soil just gets more mature
and it lasts better through the winter
and the, the, the, the following years plants
or thriving, it's always hard as that first year
when people are using like, you know,
immature bagged soil without a lot of mycelium
and, you know, they get kind of mediocre plants.
Um, and then,
and then the longer they go, no-till the more, you know,
beefy the plants get.
- Yeah, yeah. It's like a, a a bettering, you know,
I think there's probably a limit
to it year three, year four or something like that.
Mm-Hmm. Everybody's system's different,
but yeah, the more, the more organic material
and different types of plant materials
and, you know, their root exits, stuff like
that, you can get in that system.
You're adding that diversity, which is, you know,
really correlated with plant and microbe health
- Rotating in amending, you know, no-till soil every,
you know, let's say four years.
Um, you know, it, that is such a massive improvement.
Then the idea of, you know, kind of old school
where every year you start with new fresh, clean soil
that doesn't have any pathogens in it.
And while yeah, we wanna avoid the pathogens, um,
but the, the best way to actually keep pathogens at bay is
to have a vigorous soil that's already aged.
And I always, I always feel bad for people
who are very much set on the new season, new soil tip.
'cause it, it just, it just makes things hard every year
instead of year three and four being like easy.
- Yeah. To me, the, the, that kind
of feels like a scorched earth type of approach.
. Um, and, and I like that you mentioned, you know,
the diversity, uh, in what you just said.
Um, you know, we've seen, uh, things like fusarium uh,
species highly present, you know, 10 to the sixth, 10
to the eighth cells per gram of soil, um, in a,
in a plant rhizosphere sample.
Um, but it's, you know,
very far along into flower maturation and there's no signs
or symptoms of the fusarium attacking the plant.
Um, so it's like this,
the fusarium is taking one seat at the seat, uh, the table
with a hundred seats and the other 99 seats are plant
benefiting things or soil benefiting things.
So, you know, pathogens can be present
without becoming virulent.
And it all comes back to soil microbial diversity, you
- Know, out competing fusarium is the only
potential solution that I see
that there is other than just dumping the soil.
Um, you know, we, we've talked about fusarium.
I've had fusarium specialists on this, on the,
on the, um, program.
And, and usually their answer is like, throw the soil away.
And I get that. Um, but, um,
but it's interesting to realize that as a preventative,
since fusarium iss everywhere,
it's not like it's not gonna be in your soil.
Um, just make sure you keep on, you know, adding microbes,
incubating like microbes, adding indigenous microbes
and fusarium will never get a good foothold.
- Yeah. I mean, you know, never is a strong
word, but I think Yeah, fair enough.
Fair enough. differently from, you know,
adding all the microbes
and really intentionally applying, you know, diverse forms
of microbes, whether they're from, you know,
your wildcrafting or input somebody could buy.
I think the other thing is, you know,
soil health practices really is where a lot
of this soil microbial diversity preservation can start.
Um, so those things like the prebiotics
and the organic inputs
and companion planting, uh, crop rotation, no-till, uh,
soil health, I think maybe even I would put higher on the
list than, uh, microbial accessible carbon from the,
the previous question
, but they're, they're related, right? Yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah. Alright, cool.
So the last topic I want to hit, uh, during here,
during the set two here is, um, you know, so,
so far this, uh,
this set we've been talking about the things that we can do
to make the living environment for the microbe life
and in the rhizosphere as diverse
and beneficial as possible.
And, and why that's kind of everything, right?
It, it, we keep on coming back to the same answer and it's
because the answer is, is kind of the only thing
that we need to be doing as regenerative farmers is,
is adding, um, adding diversity into the soil and then,
and let nature do the rest.
So, so that's great.
Um, I also am very attracted to the idea that the plant
is also, um, trying to help itself as well by,
by putting out, you know, exudates that,
that encourage particular microbes or, or, um,
or different residents in the rhizosphere where they're kind
of curating, uh, who they are attracting to them.
And I've heard you talk
before about, um, recruitment that,
that cannabis plants will recruit bacteria that,
that they find beneficial.
And, and I'm unfamiliar with this idea, but it,
but just the idea of it is fascinating.
So, so I, I don't know the right question to ask you on it,
so I'm just gonna kind of hand you the mic
and say, will you tell us about
how cannabis plants recruit beneficial bacteria itself,
kinda like intentionally?
- Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Um, I think, you know, there's a lot of, uh,
literature from the past five or six years
that show photo sensitive photo period sensitive plants
or plants that, you know, have major changes in development,
um, also changed their root exited profiles.
So I think it was first, you know,
learned about in a arabidopsis wild, wild mustard model, um,
a a plant that has a rosette stage and then it bolts
and then it makes flowers, and those flowers make seeds.
Um, at each one of those stages, uh, it was seen that the,
the root exited profiles change.
Um, you know, the early growth
and development, there was just a ton of sugar.
And later in the, uh, the flowering
and maturation, there was a lot of, you know, organic acids
and things that are, uh, can be harsh to certain microbes,
whereas sugar is like a really broad food source.
So the kind of thinking from the authors of that paper were,
um, and I'll get to cannabis too,
I promise were about, about, um, you know,
the developmental needs of the plant are changing, you know,
more nitrogen in the beginning, more phosphorus
and potassium later.
And, you know, those micronutrients trickled throughout.
Um, and we know that the microbes help
plants uptake these things.
So, you know, let's wonder if the plant is actually,
I'm gonna use the term, uh, intentionally, uh, signaling
for different things as it goes on
through growth and development.
So, I mean, being a cannabis enthusiast, seeing that study,
I was like, wow, you know,
what's the most popular photo sensitive photo period
sensitive plant that we use,
you know, happened cannabis, right?
Mm-Hmm. . Um, uh, so it was, I,
I'm not sure if root exited work has been done, um,
but we've done some work on the, um,
the vegetative versus the transition.
So, you know, maybe a couple weeks after flour onset
after the solstice and the days get short in an outdoor
system, um, as well as the harvest, uh, you know,
functional microbiome of cannabis.
And we see that, um, regardless of
the, you know, specific species of cannabis, uh,
or strain, uh, whether it's hemp
or cannabis 0.3%, THC producers
or higher, um, the same functions,
or at least the same bacterial genera are occurring in,
in a many different, uh, types of soil environments.
Um, we're using like the USDA climatic zones for that,
but basically, um, cannabis being as, as nutritionally, uh,
needy compared to some other plants.
Um, you know, we, we see, uh, really strong associations
with the bacteria, um, based on development.
So when we use the term like recruit, it's, it's kind
of like the, um, the cannabis plant is
sending these signals into the rhizosphere
to likely get some type of RSO spheric function
by the bacterial or fungal
or just anybody in the soil microbiome.
Um, and these needs are pretty standard from, you know,
the genus or the, the, the cannabis sativa plants, uh,
whether they, they are classified as hamper marijuana, uh,
you know, depending on the, the amount
of metabolite it produces, right?
Um, all that to say is plants really want microbes.
Um, and if we can kind of provide microbes, uh,
that the plant can't search for in indoor systems, um,
or in really, you know, low alpha diversity,
10 year monoculture corn field soils where there's lots,
there's like five different types
of microbes I'm exaggerating, um, then we can kind
of benefit the plant, uh, in a way
that it would in its natural environment in the wild type
relatives and the progenitors might have,
you know, kind of evolved to do
- So.
It sounds like, um, if I'm understanding you correctly,
the main point is that over the lifecycle of the plant,
the plants, uh, the, the, the dominant
bacterias in the rhizosphere changes,
and we know the mechanism, or,
or at least we're pretty sure that the mechanism
of why it changes is
because the plant wants different types of bacteria.
And so it's putting, the plant is putting out different
types of exudates to encourage different types of bacteria.
And so, um, the best thing that we can do is
to, um, you know, a, let the plant do its job
and then b, do our part by, um, offering, um,
varieties of other, um, nutritions and,
and probiotic bacterias
and such that, that the plant can't produce
and it needs to get its environment.
So that between the partnership between us
and the plant, the roots have just got everything it could
possibly desire to express itself most fully.
- Yes, that is a perfect distillation. Thank you.
And I think, um, you know, most importantly the, uh, I'm,
I'm gonna sound like a broken
record, but soil health, right?
Yeah. If the soil health is, is maintained,
then we are gonna assume,
and, you know, we've proven,
like the science has proven there's lots of alpha diversity,
microbial diversity in a very healthy soil.
Um, so whether or not the microbe that's present
during the vegetative growth period, uh,
of your cannabis plant's lifecycle is recruited
by the plant, um, during that time, if you maintain
that soil health, it's likely there will still be those
microbes in low enough cell numbers.
And then when the plant changes its root exudation
compounds, presumably to attract microbes to, uh,
help it meet its nutritional needs based on development, um,
then, you know, soil health maintains microbial diversity.
Those bugs are hanging around when your plant is flowering
and, and in need of those types of, uh, functions.
- Hell yeah. That's actually really exciting.
, I like that summary a lot.
It's like, uh, it's, it's very rare in, uh, discussing,
uh, soil health and,
and, you know, soil maximalism, if you will,
to actually have, uh, that clear of a recipe for
what we need to do this season.
Thank God, . So, yeah, right, right on.
Well, good. Well, well, thank you for that, Michael.
Let's go ahead and take our second, uh, commercial,
uh, and be right back.
Uh, you're listening to Shaping Fire,
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Dyna Myco Endo Michal inoculate. Welcome back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shang Los,
and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue.
So here we are at the big finish.
You know, during the first set,
we talked all about biostimulants
and plant growth regulators
and what we wanted to do as regenerative cultivators
to make sure that we have the healthiest,
most biodiverse soil so the plant can do its job
of growing in a healthy way that resists pests
and gives us awesome yields and terpenes.
During the second set,
we talked a bit more about the care intending
of micro life specifically, and, and,
and not only how we can add, uh, microbes
and biodiversity like we were talking in the first set,
but also how we can help them thrive
and keep them well fed with, uh, carbon.
And here on the third set, um, we're just gonna hit on, um,
two more kind of miscellaneous, uh, biodiversity topics, um,
that didn't fit in the other two sections,
but I think are really important
and things that we have talked about, uh,
prior on the conver on the, on the program.
So the first of the two is, uh, choosing companion plants
to encourage biodiversity.
So Michael, we've talked quite a bit today about, uh,
plant exudates
and how plants push out the ex exudates from the root
structure, um, uh, and, and,
and attract different, um, um, microbial life
and life forms in the rhizosphere, um, that, that it wants
to use as, as, uh, different, you know, flavors of tools.
And, and, and I understand that like the plants
that are planted near our cannabis plants
can influence the rhizosphere of our cannabis plant
because it is also calling forth different types
of nutrition and mycelium, um, to its, uh,
root systems as well.
And, um, I understand, um, you know, partly
what you study is, is, um, how these systems may interact
and, and how to choose companion plants that will
be a good neighbor for whatever the target plant that,
that we're looking to grow in.
In our case, we're talking about cannabis.
And so will you kind of, um, talk us through how
to think about choosing our companion plants and,
and in order to encourage the,
the most biodiversity in our soil?
- Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reason
that this isn't more, you know, widespread or adapted
or adopted rather is, is
because of the, um, the scalability of this.
But I, I would love to see it, you know,
on hundreds of acres.
I think, um, two really cool examples that were new to me
for kind of companion planting for cannabis would be, um,
I had some friends do the three sisters,
but replace the corn with the, um,
the cannabis plant as opposed to corn.
Um, and for those who don't know, the three sisters is corn,
beans and squash.
The corn serves as a trellis for the beans to grow up.
Um, the beans have a nitrogen fixing symbiotic bacterium
called rhizobium that live in their roots,
and that nitrogen can get leached outta their roots
and be available for both the corn and the squash.
And then the squash with their large leaves at the base
of the plant, they provide shade, so soil stays kind
of cooler temperatures and doesn't get baked from the sun.
Um, so in this case, uh, they replaced the corn with the,
the hemp plants and the cannabis plants to serve as
that trellis for the, the beans to climb up.
Um, and both, you know, the squash
and the, excuse me, the hemp was able
to benefit from the beans being present due to
that rhizobium bacterium being there.
Um, and also, you know, certain soil temperatures,
if they get too hot, that can actually be detrimental
to microbial, um, populations.
So having that cooling effect from the squash leaves, uh,
depending on your growing environment, Colorado,
we have 320 days of direct sunshine
that can help cool it down, um,
to keep those soil temperatures, uh, happy for lots
of different things to, to keep growing rather than just,
uh, you know, the ones that are tolerant to warm soil
- Before you move past another.
Hold on. Before you move past the three sisters, I have got
to ask, are you serious?
We want to have beans climbing up our cannabis plants.
Like, that sounds awful. Like, does that work?
Do they, I mean, I imagine
that the bean plants get all into the flowers and then,
and how does that work?
- I think it might require a little bit more, um, uh,
maintenance from the cultivator than,
than most people can do in a production system.
Um, but yeah, so they would kind of climb up and,
and on the fan leaves and things along those lines, um,
- Do the - Bean bush bean are also very, the
- Beans stay closer to the stalk.
'cause like normally the flowers are, are, you know, kind
of far away from the stalk.
So, so are the, are the beans perha perhaps gonna just like,
grow up the center of the plant
and not grow out to the flowers?
Or will the, would the beans eventually grow out the
branch to the flowers?
- The ones I, the ones I saw in the system were, were more
so like the, the tips of the bean vines
or, you know, yeah, were kind
of hanging out in the empty space
between fan leaves in the middle parts of the plant.
They didn't, might quite make it up to that top cola.
Um, and, you know, this is a one one example, right?
So, um, another approach to this though,
'cause I do hear what you're saying with, you know,
beans could effectively act like a, a bind, weeded, um,
and pull plants down like that.
So I think, um, a bush bean
or a different type of legume,
like a cow p might be a better type of nitrogen fixer to get
that, you know, diverse root exed profile,
diverse microbiome from the root exodus.
Um, and the nitrogen component too from the legume plants.
- And so those different type, those bush bean.
And, and the reason why those are better is
because you would plant those at the foot
of the cannabis plant.
And so their rhizosphere is could talk to each other,
but the plant is not a climbing bean.
And so you'll just have like bean shrubbery at the
bottom of your cannabis plant, which is fine.
Um, it just won't climb the plant.
Is that where, where that goes?
- Yes, absolutely. And so like
that RSO sphere becomes representative of at least,
you know, two to three different types of plant species
with your, what your vining squash, you know,
your fruits should be okay.
'cause there'll be far away from the rest of the beans
that are kind of pushing at the base.
Um, but if you have all those roots kind
of in the same root ball, as long
as there's adequate nutrition
and organic material, um, that will be like a very healthy,
diverse microbiome, uh, as a factor
of just having three different hosts.
- Yeah, I like that a lot. And, um, we've talked on the show
before too, that people who, uh, who grow in berms
that are heavy built up with, uh, compost
and, you know, grass clippings and,
and other agricultural clippings, um, it's very popular
to grow potatoes in that too.
So, you know, you've got your potatoes and your beans
and your squash kind of trailing off down the,
down the line of plants.
Um, I've, I've always loved the idea of,
of growing food crops with the cannabis so
that you can feed yourself as well as, you know, smoke
and save your soul, if you will.
- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. - Um, okay.
So now that I've pushed you on that , what other,
what other strategies
or plans do you have in mind for, um, uh, creating a a, um,
diverse, uh, rhizosphere?
- Well, this was something that was kind of, um,
new to me that I read about.
I didn't get to see this one in, in in action,
but it was a, a farm that had been co planting, um,
um, a plant with a mushroom.
So they were kind of using myceliated, uh, beds
of a wine cap mushroom to get, um, both harvest
of wine cap fungi, edible mushrooms at the base of the soil
and the, uh, the hemp was able to grow, um,
and flour at the top.
So it was kind of getting, um, both, you know, that
fungal microbiome benefit, uh, as well as the,
the plant roots there too.
So not directly, you know, plant
to plant signaling like we're seeing
with like the three sisters we just discussed.
Um, but something along the lines of, you know, trying
to have, uh, more bang for your buck in terms
of square footage for harvesting and things like that. Um,
- And the wine cap mushroom is, uh, one
of my favorite eating mushrooms.
They're absolutely delicious.
I, I tried to do that in my indoor and it didn't work out
because the, the humidity for mushrooms seems
to be a little higher, um, than we want it
to be in an indoor setting.
It seems to work well outdoors, um, so long
as you've got good plant coverage
because, uh, normally we want our plants
in direct sunlight, right?
Right. But the mushrooms don't wanna
be in the direct sunlight.
So you gotta make sure that you're growing plants
that are gonna be big enough to, um, create that shadow
underneath that allows the, the wine caps to exist.
- Yeah. Maintain that humid microclimate
underneath the plant canopy
that is super ideal for mushrooms,
- Ands.
Oh, and the squash will help with that
too, that you're talking about.
- Yeah, - Absolutely. Those, those big leads. Yeah.
Alright. Um, do you have any more on that before, uh,
before I move on?
- Uh, I think just companion planting is really,
really excellent.
And I think there is a, um, you know, go back
to the literature and, and look out, you know,
if you have deer eating your,
your hemp marigolds can be
deterrents for deer, right?
I think there's a different,
different plant for a different need.
Um, and just always going back to the more diverse roots
and host in the, in the soil would, you know,
increase your soil health and microbial diversity there.
- So, so I actually was planning on doing, um, big pots
of marigolds, uh, next to the plants
for the first time this year, um,
because we do have a lot of deer pressure
and luckily I got some, um, some deer fencing this year,
so hopefully that'll help too.
But, um, is it, is it as effective that if the, um,
the marigolds are, are not in the pot with the candles
or in the ground next to it, but like, are beside it
that the smell of the marigolds is enough
to keep the deer off?
Or will the deer just come over and browse the weeded and,
and just ignore the marigold?
- I'll be fully honest with you, uh, when I, when I tried
to use marigolds as a, a deterrent crop in, in Maryland, I,
I watched a deer chew one down before .
Uh, so, you know, that's kinda like your
- Mileage may vary , - Right?
Yeah. You know, like, uh, kind of like different,
different strains of cannabis might have different terpenoid
or cannabinoid profiles, different species of marigolds,
you know, they have the multicolored ones have different,
uh, type of phytochemical profiles
or, you know, those volatile organic compounds
that smell icky to deer.
Um, um, so I, I don't know a variety off the top of my head,
but I imagine that, um, you know,
it's very species specific.
- Right on. Well, thank you. I, I appreciate your, uh,
your honesty in that and you know,
if we're really gonna go for it.
Um, you know,
these bio regions have got different deer, right?
So different deer could be, um, accustomed
to browsing different types of plants, whereas,
whereas Mar Maryland deer don't like, uh, marigolds, but,
or, or no, do like Mari or they did Yeah.
- , they do - Like marigolds and,
and maybe, you know, my west coast deer, um, are more, um,
snooty and they don't want marigolds, you know?
Right. Or something like that. So. Alright.
Um, but before we leave the companion planning topic,
I just wanted to ask, are there any, um, plants that are,
um, obviously, um, um, uh, poor neighbors, um, the,
the, the name for it is, is escaping me at the moment, but,
but there's, there are often plants
that you don't wanna plant near other plants
because they, they, they will make,
they might poison each other or, or, or,
or be toxic to the other person's
or the other plant's rhizosphere.
Are you aware of any of those?
- Yeah, there is one that's jumping off the top of my head,
although I know there's, uh, you know, a lot of examples,
um, uh, black walnut, uh, trees for example, you know,
not specifically related
or cultivated for a,
a regular harvest like we're talking about
with cannabis or vegetables.
Um, but those, those guys, uh, have a, a brute exit it, um,
that is under the nature of allelopathy.
Uh, so they are actually able
to shoot a compound into the soil
that makes it pretty un inhospitable for anything
but it's offspring to grow.
Um, and to counter that, there's also plants,
I think certain trees as well that, you know,
don't want its own offspring to, to compete with the,
you know, the mom plant, uh, for the resources there.
So they'll, they'll send signals into the soil
that make it inhospitable for the plants of the same species
to grow, um, to try to, uh, you know,
preserve its own nutrients that might be in the soil.
- Right on. That's, that's, that's good to say.
And, and I'm gonna throw in my two,
even though some people like these, um, you know,
I always make sure that any, any plants that I consider
for a companion plant, um, does not give off floating
seeds like dandelions.
I personally really love, uh, pink dandelions and I, and I,
and I encourage them in my yard actually
'cause they look really trippy.
Um, and so, but, but
before they go to seed, um, you know,
I've got a different seed crop at a different property, but,
but like, I have to make sure, you know, I grab those
because I don't want all those like little fuzzy puff balls
in my resonance flowers.
Right? Right. That is definitely a party fowl.
And so any plant that gives off, um, you know, uh, uh, uh,
fluffy seeds that are going to be wind, uh, distributed,
you wanna be careful of those.
And then even though a lot of people like, uh, red clover,
I personally caution people from the red clover
because the red flower shoots up.
And if you don't grow monster plants,
if you're growing plants that are only, you know, three feet
and not 10 feet, uh, three feet,
the clover could totally grow up into
and start interacting with your resin.
And, and we don't want that either.
So the last question here is, is one that, uh,
I talk about sometimes on, um, on shaping fire, but,
but mostly it, the, the discussion has,
has happened on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel where, um,
I posted a, a video with a microbiologist that had,
was a, a specialist in in plant microbe interaction,
talking about how, um, the 24 hour light strategy
is, is bad for cannabis.
And, and I fully believe this to be the case
because, um, you know, uh, uh, photo synthetic plants
have a, have, uh, evolved processes that happen
during the dark cycle.
So, so if the plant is naturally growing outdoors,
it gets a day cycle, it gets a night cycle.
During the night cycle, the photosynthesizing, um, stops
and other processes happen.
And that's how you keep a strong rambunctious plant.
But we know from experiments, indoor plants,
when you're supplementing with light
that if you grow the plant at 24 hours, um, it's,
it's like giving the plant cocaine
or something like where the plants just go, go, go, go.
A constantly photosynthesize,
constantly process these sugars, go rah rah and, and like,
and so it will, it will make your, your, your,
your seed germinate faster.
It will make the young plant move faster.
It will bring it into be becoming, you know, a ready
to flower, teenage plant faster.
And then in the flowering, some people find
that they reach maturity at the flour faster
to such a degree that they can, you know, knock a week off
of flowering sometimes.
And they're all like, listen, if, if, if, if, if I do that
with every cycle my whole year,
I can actually squeeze in another cycle a year.
And that's real money. And so
because of that, the case for a 24 hour light cycle is made.
And I take every opportunity I can to try to teach
that the, the dark cycle is necessary for plant health.
And, um, you Michael, you know, you're, you're the frontline
of this debate as a microbiologist, you know, these cycles
intimately and,
and you know, what happens in the, you know,
what happens in the dark .
And so, so I'm gonna kind of throw myself up, um, hopefully,
um, hopefully I'm not wrong in your eyes,
but, um, I'd like to hear you speak to this idea
of the 24 hour light strategy and, um,
and how that, that might impact, uh, the plant.
- Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know,
that's gotta be one of the most, uh,
nutritionally expensive types
of cultivation practices I would think,
um, that could be done.
Uh, I, I wonder what types of, uh, you know, nutrient usage,
uh, rates people are going through if they're, uh,
doing this practice with 24 hour light cycles.
Um, 'cause I would imagine that with 24 hours
of daylight without any types of resting period, um,
that the plant is gonna be constantly, uh,
requiring extremely high concentrations of nitrogen,
phosphorus, and potassium, um,
essential processes like the kreb cycle happen,
uh, at nighttime.
Um, plants also do these, um, things called like gata
where there might be air bubbles in the plant vascular
tissue, which can be detrimental.
Um, but at nighttime they can push those out.
Um, you know, they also close their stem
and, uh, don't evaporate the water out
of their bodies as as quickly.
So I think primarily the, um, the benefit
to get another cycle might be missed by the amount
of nutrients somebody might need from trying
to maintain the nutritional needs of the cannabis plant, uh,
by blasting them with 24 hours of light, right?
If you're gonna be, um, you know,
basically giving your plants cocaine
and keeping them at high energy, high growth,
optimal fast growth rates
and developments, there's gonna be a lot
of energy spent for that.
Um, and in order for them, for them to kind of account for
that deficit, there needs to be tons
and tons of available nutrient inputs there.
Um, and I, I don't know that one other cycle might be, uh,
beneficial enough to, to, to have
to add that much more verigation
- In, in my experience, the people
who are defending the 24 hour light cycle are,
are usually people that are using, you know,
two part bottled salt fertilizers,
and so they're kind of like force feeding the plants, uh,
nutrition anyway.
And, uh, you know, it's, it's pretty rare to find a,
you know, a bottled nutrients grower
who isn't overfeeding anyway,
because if some is good, more is better.
Right? Right. And so,
and so that, that's actually the answer
that I get online when discussing this with, with these,
these cultivators are at that all, well,
if it just makes the plant more hungry for more nutrition,
I'll just pour more in.
And I'm like, ah, that's not really how it works.
Um, but, um, for folks who aren't familiar with it,
you mentioned that the Krebs cycle
happens in the dark period.
Will you, will you explain what that is?
- Well, the, um, the plant starts to respire
so it stops using the light, um,
or the photons from the sunlight or your LEDs
or any types of lighting you have as, um, kind
of like the building blocks to metabolism.
Um, and it starts to respir basically it's getting its
energy from off-gassing, uh, things
that might be in the there as opposed
to using the light energy to, um, kind
of make more chloroplast and, and things along those lines.
- So when I'm, when I'm talking about, uh, this with folks
who, who are very, very, um,
into the 24 hour light strategy, um, they come back to me
and they're like, they're like, well, you're telling me I
can't do this, but I do this all the time and I get plants
and I smoke 'em, and I get high and it's great.
And, and, and to the best of my scientific knowledge, I say
to 'em, I say, yeah, but you're, you're getting a plant
that isn't the best plant you could have grown.
Um, if you, if you need fast, cheap
styrofoam tasting flour quickly, okay, that,
that might be an appropriate strategy to consider.
But since most of us are looking for a thriving plant,
which, um, you know, also provides
high quality terpenes that just like engage us
and give us a better high
and also creates pest resistance, it seems to me
that the 24 hour lifecycle will slowly
but surely degrade a cannabis plant throughout its
entire lifecycle.
What, what are your thoughts about that?
Like, is the, is the, is the, is the life
of the cannabis plant so short where over
where, over that lifecycle?
It doesn't matter if we starve the soil.
- I, I kind of am thinking that I, it does matter, you know,
uh, the cannabis plant lifecycle is a lot longer to,
to maturation and harvest than a lot
of other different crops that are kind
of following the school of thought.
And I think that, um, you know, speculatively, there's a lot
of, uh, things that happen that are beneficial
to the plant vascular system during the rest period.
Um, pushing those air bubbles out, closing those ada, uh,
and things along those lines that
I would imagine play a role in the, the synthesis
of cannabinoids, terpenoids,
and other secondary metabolites.
Um, so I think, yeah, it would be interesting
to do a side-by-side with the same kind of cultivar or,
or strain of, of cannabis, uh, you know,
in a 24 hour cycle versus a an 18 six followed by a 1212.
Um, and then the other thing that I wanted to mention, uh,
you were talking about kind of the indoor growers
and having those, you know, two
to one salts readily available
and probably slightly over applied.
Um, it, it would be cool to, to get to a point to
where we can kind of start to supplement, uh,
those conventional salt based fertilizers
with more organic things.
Um, and maybe even get to the point, uh,
and this is from Dr. James White, the Oph Fiji, uh,
scientist, um, using those salts that are easily slurped up
and, and, you know, immediately used in, in building blocks
of the plant body, um, kind of
as like corrective uh, treatments.
And you notice the deficiency, you apply a salt,
and then you start to kind of balance both your, your salt
and your organic base of nutrition inputs.
Not only will that benefit the plant, um,
but also same thing with the microbes.
Um, there's been studies showing the same exact, you know,
strain of, of cannabis growing in living soil versus growing
in, uh, hydroponics with biologicals.
And the terpene and cannabinoid profiles are, you know,
statistically different from one another.
And I think a lot of that has to do with, uh, the terroir
or the terroir of, of the cannabis plant. Yeah.
- Yeah. The idea of supplementing with, uh, with, um,
salt on its face I'm prejudice against,
but as a citizen scientist, I want
to learn more, you know what I mean?
- So Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah. So anyway, well, well thank you for, for, uh,
diving into that topic for me.
Um, it, it, it, it's clearly something that I,
I am passionate about
and I get argued with sometimes .
And so anytime I, you know,
when I get a microbiologist like you willing to talk
to me about it, I always bang
that drum. So thank you, .
- Yeah, absolutely. I mean,
I guess more on the microbe side, I think just like the,
the soil temperatures do cool
or the roots temp, the root zone rises
for temperatures will also cool in the dark.
So kind of factoring in the microbiome, um,
that's just allowing more environmental changes
to maintain different diversity
and things like that, um, with the, the darkness period,
because, you know, a grow room will cool off 10 degrees when
the lights are off and things like that.
- Yeah, right on. Yeah. And I'm sure there's different
cycles that need a cooler temperature to happen.
- Yeah. But I'm interested in, in kind
of learning more about the effects, uh, in the microbiome,
you know, with this 24 hour versus getting
that rest period that plants,
you know, were evolved to have.
- Yeah. So. Awesome. Well, Michael, we are here at the end.
Um, thank you so much for sharing your expertise
and experience and, and time and good cheer with us.
Um, uh, I've really enjoyed our discussion
and, um, you know, it, it, I I, I didn't expect, uh, uh,
so much, so many times for us to come back
to the answer being diverse microbe ts, but,
but really, you know, the,
the more I get into regenerative growing
and really, uh, growing in a way that's, uh, responds
to nature, the more I realized that, um,
the farmer's only job is to create, um,
rich nutri nutritive, biologically diverse soil.
And, and so you're always gonna come back to tea.
So, so thank you very much for being here
and for, for, you know, sharing what you know.
- Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Shang. Go.
It, uh, it was a great conversation
and I'm really grateful to be able to kind of just,
you know, talk about this stuff with somebody else.
- Excellent. Yeah, me too. It's, it's nice
to find another narrative for this
stuff, so thank you. Totally.
- Yeah, - Right on.
So, um, if you want to reach out to, uh, Michael
or no more what's, he's more of what he's up to,
there are two places to do that.
Um, you can follow Michael Delegue,
that's D-I-L-E-G-G-E on LinkedIn, where he posts
what he's up to in his latest research.
And also, um, uh, the company where he is a director
of microbiology is Implo Biosciences,
and you can find out what they're up to at implo
I-M-P-E-L-L-O bio.com.
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