1 00:00:07,095 --> 00:00:07,965 - Happy New Year. 2 00:00:08,785 --> 00:00:12,275 It's been so cold over the entire country this week here on 3 00:00:12,295 --> 00:00:15,355 Vashon Island where I live, windchill got well below zero, 4 00:00:15,815 --> 00:00:17,955 and some of the southern states had windchill 5 00:00:17,955 --> 00:00:20,955 of like negative 40 and negative 60 degrees Fahrenheit. 6 00:00:21,175 --> 00:00:23,915 That's ridiculous when it gets this cold, 7 00:00:24,135 --> 00:00:25,635 my old house is miserable. 8 00:00:25,975 --> 00:00:28,835 The poor insulation here just lets the cold right through, 9 00:00:28,835 --> 00:00:30,195 and I have to bundle up 10 00:00:30,195 --> 00:00:32,035 and keep moving until the weather changes. 11 00:00:32,905 --> 00:00:36,155 Several parts of the country are without power, too cold 12 00:00:36,455 --> 00:00:37,675 and no electricity. 13 00:00:37,675 --> 00:00:39,595 Makes life dangerous and unbearable. 14 00:00:40,135 --> 00:00:42,955 The parts of my island that have no power have put their 15 00:00:42,955 --> 00:00:46,235 freezer foods outside in the icy cold to stay fresh. 16 00:00:46,985 --> 00:00:50,515 Some folks are grilling their defrosting expensive meat 17 00:00:50,515 --> 00:00:52,635 and seafood so they can enjoy eating them 18 00:00:52,635 --> 00:00:55,235 before losing them, in case the weather warms 19 00:00:55,295 --> 00:00:57,155 before the electricity comes back. 20 00:00:58,065 --> 00:01:00,835 Some folks are even leaving town to stay with relatives. 21 00:01:01,965 --> 00:01:04,145 And believe it or not, this is the theme 22 00:01:04,145 --> 00:01:05,905 of today's shaping fire episode. 23 00:01:06,655 --> 00:01:08,505 Just like humans get miserable 24 00:01:08,525 --> 00:01:10,985 and crappy weather, so does the microbe 25 00:01:10,985 --> 00:01:12,145 life in your cannabis soil. 26 00:01:12,925 --> 00:01:16,305 Too much water, too little water. Not enough sunshine. 27 00:01:16,485 --> 00:01:18,585 Too much sunshine. Too little carbon. 28 00:01:19,045 --> 00:01:23,145 Too much carbon, too hot, too cold, frozen. Yikes. 29 00:01:23,745 --> 00:01:26,865 I imagine the microbes also putting all their little foods 30 00:01:26,885 --> 00:01:29,305 out in the front yard and having the neighborhood over 31 00:01:29,325 --> 00:01:30,785 for a big freezing barbecue. 32 00:01:31,615 --> 00:01:33,985 Yeah, that's right. Get ready for a lot 33 00:01:33,985 --> 00:01:36,105 of anthropomorphizing of microbes today, 34 00:01:36,625 --> 00:01:37,905 'cause microbes are people too. 35 00:01:39,665 --> 00:01:41,965 If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation 36 00:01:41,965 --> 00:01:43,085 and technique efficiently 37 00:01:43,085 --> 00:01:44,885 and with good cheer, I encourage you 38 00:01:44,885 --> 00:01:46,125 to subscribe to our newsletter. 39 00:01:46,535 --> 00:01:48,965 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 40 00:01:48,965 --> 00:01:50,605 delivered right to your inbox, along 41 00:01:50,605 --> 00:01:51,885 with commentary on a couple 42 00:01:51,885 --> 00:01:53,485 of the most important news items from the 43 00:01:53,485 --> 00:01:54,525 week, and videos too. 44 00:01:55,055 --> 00:01:56,245 Don't rely on social media 45 00:01:56,345 --> 00:01:58,325 to let you know when a new episode is published. 46 00:01:58,715 --> 00:02:00,045 Sign up for the updates to make sure 47 00:02:00,045 --> 00:02:01,085 you don't miss an episode. 48 00:02:02,505 --> 00:02:03,925 You are listening to Shaping Fire. 49 00:02:03,925 --> 00:02:08,085 And I'm your host, Shang Los. Welcome to episode 112. 50 00:02:08,865 --> 00:02:10,765 My guest today is Michael Delegue. 51 00:02:10,835 --> 00:02:13,925 Michael Delegue earned his master's from Colorado State 52 00:02:13,925 --> 00:02:16,365 University's horticultural department in 2020, 53 00:02:16,575 --> 00:02:18,445 where he researched different facets 54 00:02:18,445 --> 00:02:21,245 of plant microbe interactions, including nematode, 55 00:02:21,255 --> 00:02:23,765 biocontrol methods, microbial legacies, 56 00:02:23,765 --> 00:02:25,285 resulting from replanting fields, 57 00:02:25,545 --> 00:02:27,765 and even the caterpillar gut microbiome. 58 00:02:28,905 --> 00:02:30,285 Now serving as the Director 59 00:02:30,285 --> 00:02:32,805 of microbiology at Impella Biosciences. 60 00:02:33,145 --> 00:02:36,045 His research surrounds the overlap between biological 61 00:02:36,105 --> 00:02:39,205 and biochemical agricultural inputs targeted towards both 62 00:02:39,315 --> 00:02:40,845 crop and soil health properties. 63 00:02:41,805 --> 00:02:43,925 Cannabis sativa is one of their model organisms 64 00:02:43,925 --> 00:02:45,045 for agricultural research, 65 00:02:45,225 --> 00:02:46,685 and one of Michael's projects is 66 00:02:46,685 --> 00:02:49,885 to examine the functional bacterial species recruited 67 00:02:49,885 --> 00:02:53,885 by cannabis sativa in the rhizosphere during the first set. 68 00:02:53,885 --> 00:02:55,725 Today we will discuss biostimulants 69 00:02:55,745 --> 00:02:57,165 and plant growth regulators 70 00:02:57,345 --> 00:02:58,405 and how to approach them 71 00:02:58,465 --> 00:03:00,325 as regenerative cannabis cultivators. 72 00:03:00,865 --> 00:03:03,325 In the second set, we will discuss the care intending 73 00:03:03,325 --> 00:03:04,845 of micro life in the rhizosphere. 74 00:03:05,305 --> 00:03:06,365 And during the third set, 75 00:03:06,545 --> 00:03:08,965 we will choose companion plants for soil diversity. 76 00:03:09,345 --> 00:03:11,325 And finish the episode with an indictment 77 00:03:11,325 --> 00:03:12,725 of the 24 hour light strategy. 78 00:03:13,075 --> 00:03:14,725 Welcome to Shaping Fire, Michael. 79 00:03:16,195 --> 00:03:17,815 - Hi, Chenko. Thank you so much for having me. 80 00:03:17,875 --> 00:03:19,255 I'm very grateful to be here. Awesome. 81 00:03:19,275 --> 00:03:20,815 - Really glad that you made time for us. 82 00:03:21,035 --> 00:03:22,255 So let's get right into it. 83 00:03:22,675 --> 00:03:25,735 You know, um, cannabis farmers are always looking 84 00:03:25,795 --> 00:03:27,375 for like a leg up, uh, 85 00:03:27,375 --> 00:03:29,015 something winning to add to their recipe. 86 00:03:29,795 --> 00:03:32,415 And, um, a lot of us look for different things 87 00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:34,655 that could be determined to be bio stimulants. 88 00:03:35,315 --> 00:03:38,855 And then a subsection of those people are, are people mostly 89 00:03:38,955 --> 00:03:40,975 who follow this show, who are, uh, 90 00:03:40,975 --> 00:03:42,655 regeneratively minded farmers. 91 00:03:42,915 --> 00:03:45,255 So, so they're, they're, they're looking 92 00:03:45,275 --> 00:03:48,255 for natural biostimulants versus synthetic ones. 93 00:03:49,265 --> 00:03:50,895 Let's start out the show by talking about 94 00:03:50,895 --> 00:03:53,295 what biostimulants are generally, 95 00:03:53,475 --> 00:03:55,615 and then we'll start to tease apart the synthetic 96 00:03:55,685 --> 00:03:56,775 ones from natural ones. 97 00:03:56,795 --> 00:03:58,535 So, so that's my first question for you. 98 00:03:58,835 --> 00:04:01,695 Um, what are bio stimulants and, um, 99 00:04:01,755 --> 00:04:04,455 and what are the kind of kinds of attributes that we look 100 00:04:04,455 --> 00:04:06,175 for them to impart on our cannabis plants? 101 00:04:07,695 --> 00:04:09,535 - Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I like to think 102 00:04:09,535 --> 00:04:12,255 of biostimulants as a really large umbrella term 103 00:04:12,645 --> 00:04:15,375 with several different kind of facets of, of products 104 00:04:15,375 --> 00:04:16,855 or inputs that people can use 105 00:04:16,875 --> 00:04:18,015 or they can take advantage of 106 00:04:18,015 --> 00:04:19,375 that might be in a natural system. 107 00:04:19,715 --> 00:04:22,575 Um, but I guess in essence, you know, they're, 108 00:04:22,575 --> 00:04:24,735 they're very much performance enhancers for plant growth 109 00:04:24,735 --> 00:04:28,535 and metabolism is how I kind of define biostimulants. 110 00:04:28,535 --> 00:04:31,895 - So, so when, so when we say performance, um, um, 111 00:04:32,035 --> 00:04:35,575 are we talking about specifically like the, the, um, 112 00:04:35,915 --> 00:04:39,455 the gathering of nutrition, the processing of nutrition, uh, 113 00:04:39,815 --> 00:04:44,375 improved photosynthesis, essentially all of the plants, 114 00:04:44,755 --> 00:04:49,295 um, biological systems get, get kind of like tweaked up the, 115 00:04:49,295 --> 00:04:51,375 the governors turned up on all of them, 116 00:04:51,435 --> 00:04:53,735 so they're running either more efficiently 117 00:04:53,755 --> 00:04:55,375 or faster, is that's the idea. 118 00:04:56,085 --> 00:04:57,775 - Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. 119 00:04:57,775 --> 00:05:00,655 And, you know, different parts of biostimulants will, uh, 120 00:05:00,955 --> 00:05:03,775 uh, upregulate different parts of the plant metabolism or, 121 00:05:03,795 --> 00:05:05,575 or growth, uh, rates and things like that. 122 00:05:06,195 --> 00:05:09,255 Um, but yeah, I think, uh, the, uh, 123 00:05:09,485 --> 00:05:12,175 primarily I look at these as, you know, biological products, 124 00:05:12,175 --> 00:05:13,895 things like microorganisms and, 125 00:05:13,955 --> 00:05:17,055 and biochemicals, um, things that are usually plant derived 126 00:05:17,055 --> 00:05:18,095 or discovered in nature 127 00:05:18,155 --> 00:05:21,695 and then used, uh, um, to upregulate the plant metabolism, 128 00:05:21,725 --> 00:05:23,415 whether that's with hormones 129 00:05:23,515 --> 00:05:27,775 or, um, amino acids, fulvic acids, things like that. 130 00:05:28,455 --> 00:05:30,135 - I like this term up-regulate. 131 00:05:30,235 --> 00:05:33,495 Um, uh, I've heard it before, but I don't use it regularly. 132 00:05:33,915 --> 00:05:37,255 And, um, I like it both for the biology conversation, 133 00:05:37,315 --> 00:05:39,415 but it also sounds like a great, um, 134 00:05:39,855 --> 00:05:40,895 euphemism for getting high. 135 00:05:41,325 --> 00:05:43,615 Like, like, oh man, I need to go up-regulate . 136 00:05:44,635 --> 00:05:46,895 - That's awesome. . Uh, I like that a lot. 137 00:05:47,395 --> 00:05:50,895 - So, so let, let's, let's tease apart now the synthetic 138 00:05:51,075 --> 00:05:53,375 and the, and the natural biostimulants 139 00:05:53,375 --> 00:05:55,335 because we're, we're mostly gonna be talking about, um, 140 00:05:55,335 --> 00:05:56,735 natural biostimulants today. 141 00:05:57,425 --> 00:06:00,925 Um, so WW when I 142 00:06:01,435 --> 00:06:03,885 discuss bio natural biostimulants 143 00:06:03,885 --> 00:06:05,205 with other regenerative growers, 144 00:06:05,295 --> 00:06:08,485 we're usually talking about, um, you know, this 145 00:06:08,505 --> 00:06:11,925 or that plant that we are going to, you know, do a, 146 00:06:12,005 --> 00:06:15,805 a a a tea of or an extract of or a or a 147 00:06:15,825 --> 00:06:18,725 or a, you know, a top dress of something like that 148 00:06:18,725 --> 00:06:21,485 because we want, uh, some, uh, 149 00:06:21,515 --> 00:06:24,085 naturally occurring biochemical that's in the plant. 150 00:06:24,145 --> 00:06:26,405 We want that to seep into our biosphere. 151 00:06:26,785 --> 00:06:29,085 And then when at the conventions, when I talk 152 00:06:29,085 --> 00:06:32,005 with the synthetic bio stimulant sales guys, 153 00:06:32,415 --> 00:06:34,565 their products have always got these like 154 00:06:35,075 --> 00:06:37,725 multisyllabic names that, that, um, 155 00:06:37,855 --> 00:06:40,245 sound very scientific. 156 00:06:40,585 --> 00:06:41,965 And sometimes they've, you know, 157 00:06:41,965 --> 00:06:44,365 they've also been named at some marketing name, 158 00:06:44,365 --> 00:06:47,685 and so they have got a, a, a real different vibe to them. 159 00:06:48,225 --> 00:06:51,565 Um, perhaps they're perhaps the natural ones 160 00:06:51,565 --> 00:06:53,565 and the synthetic ones are both trying 161 00:06:53,565 --> 00:06:55,445 to do the same things, but I'm, 162 00:06:55,505 --> 00:06:58,845 I'm guessing they have got different attributes that, 163 00:06:58,915 --> 00:07:00,125 that you can share with us. 164 00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:01,805 - Yeah, absolutely. 165 00:07:01,865 --> 00:07:04,205 So I, I would think like, um, a lot of times when I, 166 00:07:04,205 --> 00:07:06,925 when I think about synthetic biostimulants, whether 167 00:07:06,925 --> 00:07:09,885 that's something that is, you know, uh, discovered 168 00:07:09,885 --> 00:07:11,125 through a natural process, 169 00:07:11,425 --> 00:07:13,605 and then, you know, one compound is isolated, 170 00:07:13,665 --> 00:07:14,845 it really seems a lot to me, 171 00:07:14,845 --> 00:07:16,325 like the pharmaceutical industry, 172 00:07:16,585 --> 00:07:19,045 we find one active ingredient, we purify it, you know, 173 00:07:19,065 --> 00:07:20,605 it shows in a lab and on the bench 174 00:07:20,635 --> 00:07:22,445 that this is effective at whatever 175 00:07:22,445 --> 00:07:23,645 we're trying to, uh, alleviate. 176 00:07:24,385 --> 00:07:26,445 Um, and then all of the, uh, you know, 177 00:07:26,645 --> 00:07:28,045 medicine is built off of that compound. 178 00:07:28,345 --> 00:07:29,565 Um, and that's kind of 179 00:07:29,565 --> 00:07:32,045 how I look at like the synthetic aspect of that, where 180 00:07:32,595 --> 00:07:34,365 potentially there's a, there's a chance 181 00:07:34,365 --> 00:07:36,285 of missing some other minor chemicals 182 00:07:36,285 --> 00:07:37,965 or, you know, metabolites 183 00:07:37,965 --> 00:07:40,205 that might be from a natural product extract, um, 184 00:07:40,275 --> 00:07:41,525 that would be missed, uh, 185 00:07:41,875 --> 00:07:44,765 when things are just synthesized in a lab versus, uh, 186 00:07:44,765 --> 00:07:47,245 extractive through a natural process like making it a 187 00:07:47,245 --> 00:07:51,045 compost tea or, or breaking down other, um, forms of, 188 00:07:51,265 --> 00:07:53,685 of organic inputs like, uh, fish waste 189 00:07:53,865 --> 00:07:56,205 or even, you know, corn waste, things like that. 190 00:07:56,995 --> 00:07:59,765 - Hearing you describe it, it actually reminds me a lot of 191 00:07:59,765 --> 00:08:01,685 how we talk about the entourage effect 192 00:08:01,945 --> 00:08:04,565 and the difference between isolates and whole plant. 193 00:08:04,705 --> 00:08:07,485 It sounds a lot like the synthetic, um, 194 00:08:07,865 --> 00:08:11,525 the synthetic bio stimulants are often like isolates. 195 00:08:11,525 --> 00:08:13,685 They are an isolated biochemical 196 00:08:13,875 --> 00:08:15,725 that we're gonna apply the plant one way 197 00:08:15,725 --> 00:08:19,165 or another, versus the compost tea kind of flavor. 198 00:08:19,185 --> 00:08:21,605 That's more like taking a whole plant medicine 199 00:08:21,675 --> 00:08:24,525 because we're getting all these, these random, uh, 200 00:08:24,775 --> 00:08:27,245 plant constituents that, um, 201 00:08:27,555 --> 00:08:29,565 that we may not have even researched yet, 202 00:08:29,585 --> 00:08:31,965 but we know that as a symphony, they, 203 00:08:31,965 --> 00:08:34,525 they interact really well with the human body. 204 00:08:34,865 --> 00:08:36,805 Um, what do you think about that? 205 00:08:37,395 --> 00:08:38,525 - Yeah, I would agree with that. 206 00:08:38,605 --> 00:08:39,645 I think it's really similar to 207 00:08:39,645 --> 00:08:42,165 how people talk about the entourage effect of, of cannabis 208 00:08:42,225 --> 00:08:44,045 and, you know, terpenoids and things like that. 209 00:08:44,625 --> 00:08:47,125 Um, the same thing goes for, you know, whether these, 210 00:08:47,125 --> 00:08:48,925 these compounds, whether a synthetic 211 00:08:48,925 --> 00:08:50,565 or natural bio stimulant is, 212 00:08:50,625 --> 00:08:52,405 is directly influencing the plant. 213 00:08:52,405 --> 00:08:53,845 There's a, there's a good chance it is, 214 00:08:54,075 --> 00:08:55,645 it's also really helping out like the soil 215 00:08:55,645 --> 00:08:56,925 microbiome most likely. 216 00:08:57,185 --> 00:08:59,805 Uh, things like, you know, the upregulation 217 00:08:59,805 --> 00:09:03,805 of the can be a factor of, uh, an increased rate 218 00:09:03,825 --> 00:09:06,605 of, you know, soil respiration or soil organic matter, 219 00:09:06,705 --> 00:09:09,565 or just general beneficial soil ecological components. 220 00:09:09,705 --> 00:09:13,525 Um, you know, things like amino acids, uh, the things, 221 00:09:13,945 --> 00:09:15,805 or one of the, um, smaller terms 222 00:09:15,805 --> 00:09:17,765 underneath the larger bio stimulant umbrella 223 00:09:18,425 --> 00:09:20,085 can become building blocks 224 00:09:20,085 --> 00:09:22,885 for protein synthesis in both plants and microbes. 225 00:09:22,905 --> 00:09:25,605 Um, so by providing that source that might be, you know, 226 00:09:25,605 --> 00:09:26,845 deficient in the soil 227 00:09:26,945 --> 00:09:29,805 or, um, you know, out competed by other microbes, if a, 228 00:09:29,885 --> 00:09:32,085 a grower can add that in there, um, whether 229 00:09:32,205 --> 00:09:33,405 that's helping the plant directly 230 00:09:33,405 --> 00:09:34,565 or the soil ecology, 231 00:09:34,745 --> 00:09:36,485 the whole system has benefited at least, 232 00:09:36,585 --> 00:09:38,005 um, from what we've seen. Mm-Hmm, . 233 00:09:38,005 --> 00:09:40,565 - Mm-Hmm, . So, um, you know, I, 234 00:09:40,685 --> 00:09:42,885 I rec I do recognize that I've got a certain amount 235 00:09:42,885 --> 00:09:45,605 of prejudice against synthetic biostimulants simply 236 00:09:45,605 --> 00:09:47,965 because they are synthetic. 237 00:09:48,305 --> 00:09:53,005 And I know that, um, that is often unfair of me just to, 238 00:09:53,145 --> 00:09:55,965 um, discount things because they're synthetic. 239 00:09:56,465 --> 00:10:01,325 Um, you know, outside of the fact that just on its face, 240 00:10:01,885 --> 00:10:05,285 I prefer organic gardening and organic food 241 00:10:05,285 --> 00:10:08,845 and organic seeds because I like to, um, you know, 242 00:10:09,355 --> 00:10:12,365 have my garden be as close to nature as possible. 243 00:10:13,065 --> 00:10:17,605 Um, is there really any, you know, a priori reason to 244 00:10:18,725 --> 00:10:22,165 discount or not include synthetic bio stimulants? 245 00:10:22,825 --> 00:10:25,325 And, and what, what I'm gonna compare it to is, you know, 246 00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:26,805 we often talk about, you know, 247 00:10:27,125 --> 00:10:30,125 bought bottled salt fertilizers on this show about 248 00:10:30,125 --> 00:10:33,805 how they kind of force feed nutrition to cannabis plants. 249 00:10:34,425 --> 00:10:36,565 And by doing that, um, you know, 250 00:10:36,625 --> 00:10:38,045 you might get a robust plant, 251 00:10:38,045 --> 00:10:41,085 but you're also getting a plant that is out of balance 252 00:10:41,225 --> 00:10:43,565 and over the long term is more susceptible to plants 253 00:10:43,625 --> 00:10:45,525 and can have all sorts of other problems 254 00:10:45,595 --> 00:10:48,485 because you're, you're forcing it right now. 255 00:10:48,785 --> 00:10:52,165 Um, is there, is, are there any mechanisms like that 256 00:10:52,275 --> 00:10:55,685 with synthetic bio stimulants that are a reason 257 00:10:55,785 --> 00:10:59,125 to reject them because of how they function instead 258 00:10:59,125 --> 00:11:02,125 of just me being prejudiced because they are not organic? 259 00:11:03,025 --> 00:11:05,245 - No, I, I understand where you're coming from with the, um, 260 00:11:05,245 --> 00:11:06,845 the synthetic prejudice and I, I kind 261 00:11:06,845 --> 00:11:08,085 of adapt similar principles, 262 00:11:08,085 --> 00:11:10,205 like in my own gardening and, and things like that. 263 00:11:10,585 --> 00:11:13,125 Um, I guess I wanna ask you a question about, uh, 264 00:11:13,125 --> 00:11:15,205 what might be considered, I guess, synthetic 265 00:11:15,265 --> 00:11:16,325 to take a step back here. 266 00:11:16,465 --> 00:11:18,405 Um, I'm familiar with a process, uh, 267 00:11:18,405 --> 00:11:20,245 for an amino acid product that is, um, 268 00:11:20,545 --> 00:11:22,325 taking waste from the fishing industry. 269 00:11:22,325 --> 00:11:23,765 So lots of shrimp shells and, 270 00:11:23,765 --> 00:11:25,165 and crab shells and things like that. 271 00:11:25,505 --> 00:11:26,965 And then they're put into a reactor. 272 00:11:27,325 --> 00:11:30,605 A couple enzymes are added to break down the, the fish waste 273 00:11:30,605 --> 00:11:31,965 or the, you know, the crustacean waste. 274 00:11:32,425 --> 00:11:35,205 Um, and then the end product is both, uh, you know, 275 00:11:35,295 --> 00:11:37,805 amino acids and, and chitin and other things like that. 276 00:11:38,345 --> 00:11:40,765 Um, so that is, you know, synthetically, uh, 277 00:11:40,825 --> 00:11:43,285 the breakdown process is synthetically increased 278 00:11:43,315 --> 00:11:45,165 with these enzymes in the reaction. 279 00:11:45,585 --> 00:11:48,405 Um, but if you were to kind of slowly compost, you know, 280 00:11:48,505 --> 00:11:49,885 shrimp and crab shells and, 281 00:11:49,905 --> 00:11:52,765 and things like that in your soil, you might have a similar, 282 00:11:53,105 --> 00:11:55,765 uh, endpoint product or, you know, beneficial effect 283 00:11:55,765 --> 00:11:56,765 of the soil system. 284 00:11:57,265 --> 00:12:00,205 Um, so I guess, how do you feel about that kind of process? 285 00:12:00,465 --> 00:12:02,165 Is that what you call that more synthetic kind 286 00:12:02,165 --> 00:12:03,565 of towing the line between the two of them? 287 00:12:03,625 --> 00:12:05,085 Or just is that purely synthetic 288 00:12:05,285 --> 00:12:07,725 'cause you know, lab equipment and bioreactors are involved? 289 00:12:07,835 --> 00:12:09,605 - Yeah, it's an interesting question to kind 290 00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:10,725 of tease the definition. 291 00:12:10,905 --> 00:12:13,085 Um, uh, definitely at, at from the top, 292 00:12:13,115 --> 00:12:16,125 I'll say the word synthetic is a messy term. 293 00:12:16,645 --> 00:12:19,045 'cause it, it's, it's kind of like a, it's, it's, 294 00:12:19,195 --> 00:12:21,485 it's a bucket i of ideas that are different 295 00:12:21,585 --> 00:12:24,005 to pretty much everybody who hears the word. 296 00:12:24,585 --> 00:12:28,445 And it is best applied on a, on a case by case basis 297 00:12:29,135 --> 00:12:31,125 based on what you are, you know, 298 00:12:31,125 --> 00:12:34,485 based on this little example though, um, it sounds like 299 00:12:34,555 --> 00:12:38,165 that is a, um, a, a non, 300 00:12:41,155 --> 00:12:42,155 - It's tricky, right? 301 00:12:42,155 --> 00:12:43,205 - Yeah, it is tricky. It sounds like 302 00:12:43,205 --> 00:12:44,285 it's a natural process, right? 303 00:12:44,305 --> 00:12:46,565 It, it sounds like you're, you're just processing 304 00:12:46,585 --> 00:12:49,005 by adding other natural processes. 305 00:12:49,025 --> 00:12:51,925 So it's, you've got, you've got natural, natural 306 00:12:52,635 --> 00:12:54,285 naturally occurring product A 307 00:12:54,585 --> 00:12:57,805 and you're a adding naturally occurring products B and C 308 00:12:58,465 --> 00:13:00,005 and, you know, you put them together 309 00:13:00,065 --> 00:13:02,925 and it causes the breakdown to happen into a, you know, 310 00:13:02,965 --> 00:13:04,485 a usable nutrition faster. 311 00:13:05,185 --> 00:13:08,765 Um, you know, if we were to, if we were to go long on this 312 00:13:08,825 --> 00:13:11,125 and make it the, the, you know, the, the brunt of the show, 313 00:13:11,325 --> 00:13:14,285 I would probably have to ask a bunch of questions about 314 00:13:14,435 --> 00:13:16,605 what are the natures of the inputs and, 315 00:13:16,605 --> 00:13:20,285 and where that line might be drawn between, um, you know, 316 00:13:20,285 --> 00:13:23,245 adding, adding inputs that, that, um, 317 00:13:24,065 --> 00:13:26,525 either inhibit natural reactions 318 00:13:26,705 --> 00:13:29,005 or create non-natural reactions 319 00:13:29,505 --> 00:13:31,885 to get whatever you're trying to, you know, 320 00:13:31,915 --> 00:13:32,925 produce, produce. 321 00:13:33,065 --> 00:13:34,085 But, but, um, 322 00:13:34,265 --> 00:13:36,285 that's a slippery slope right there, of course, right? 323 00:13:36,445 --> 00:13:37,485 - . Absolutely. Yeah. 324 00:13:38,265 --> 00:13:39,845 Um, and yeah, I think, I mean, you know, 325 00:13:39,845 --> 00:13:41,885 the processes would, would, uh, you know, uh, 326 00:13:42,475 --> 00:13:45,325 theoretically occur in nature just a little bit longer time 327 00:13:45,345 --> 00:13:47,365 for those enzymes to unlock some of the, 328 00:13:47,425 --> 00:13:49,805 the polymers like things in, you know, the 329 00:13:50,405 --> 00:13:51,885 exoskeletons of crustaceans. 330 00:13:52,345 --> 00:13:54,005 Um, but yeah, we are synthetically 331 00:13:54,065 --> 00:13:56,765 or, you know, in this type of process development, uh, 332 00:13:57,005 --> 00:13:58,725 somebody would be synthetically upregulating 333 00:13:58,785 --> 00:14:02,405 or increasing the rate of decomp to make these things, um, 334 00:14:02,625 --> 00:14:04,245 you know, in a more plant usable form. 335 00:14:04,245 --> 00:14:06,165 That way the plants and the soil microbes have 336 00:14:06,165 --> 00:14:09,325 to expend less energy, um, on breaking down things, 337 00:14:09,345 --> 00:14:10,925 and they can just be, you know, slurped up 338 00:14:10,925 --> 00:14:12,085 and used, uh, efficiently. 339 00:14:12,505 --> 00:14:14,445 Um, so yeah, I think it kind of tells the line 340 00:14:14,445 --> 00:14:15,565 between synthetic and natural. 341 00:14:15,785 --> 00:14:19,045 But one thing that is, is kind of cool in processes such 342 00:14:19,045 --> 00:14:21,925 as these, um, I know there's similar ones for corn 343 00:14:21,925 --> 00:14:24,285 and soy, uh, based biostimulants. 344 00:14:24,545 --> 00:14:26,645 Um, they do put, uh, a use 345 00:14:26,645 --> 00:14:27,885 and end use product to things 346 00:14:27,885 --> 00:14:30,405 that might be considered waste material prior to, um, 347 00:14:30,415 --> 00:14:31,605 these types of reactions. 348 00:14:31,605 --> 00:14:32,605 Mm-Hmm. 349 00:14:33,345 --> 00:14:34,845 - And I guess we just wanna make sure that 350 00:14:34,845 --> 00:14:38,125 that waste material is handled in a responsible way, if, 351 00:14:38,125 --> 00:14:39,565 if we're gonna produce it at all. 352 00:14:40,365 --> 00:14:42,485 - Absolutely. And, you know, when it is not waste material, 353 00:14:42,515 --> 00:14:44,485 when it's, you know, host material for a, 354 00:14:44,645 --> 00:14:46,365 a crustacean farmer or a, a corn 355 00:14:46,365 --> 00:14:49,285 or so farmer, we wanna make sure that, uh, those plants or, 356 00:14:49,345 --> 00:14:50,605 or animals are being treated 357 00:14:50,745 --> 00:14:53,885 and, uh, you know, uh, the management practices 358 00:14:53,885 --> 00:14:57,365 of cultivating those are also not gonna influence the inputs 359 00:14:57,365 --> 00:14:58,205 that we wanna feed our plants 360 00:14:58,205 --> 00:14:59,165 later. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm, 361 00:14:59,205 --> 00:15:00,205 - . 362 00:15:00,205 --> 00:15:03,325 So, um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, some of the, 363 00:15:03,505 --> 00:15:06,005 the natural biostimulants that come up, uh, 364 00:15:06,025 --> 00:15:09,045 the most often in, uh, cannabis cultivation. 365 00:15:09,745 --> 00:15:10,965 I'm thinking, uh, humic 366 00:15:10,965 --> 00:15:14,525 and phobic acids, seaweed extracts, uh, different types 367 00:15:14,525 --> 00:15:16,085 of microbial innoculants 368 00:15:16,265 --> 00:15:18,405 and then amino acids, which you've already mentioned. 369 00:15:19,065 --> 00:15:22,445 Um, are these all, are, are these different types 370 00:15:22,585 --> 00:15:27,325 of natural biostimulants working on, um, different, um, 371 00:15:27,785 --> 00:15:30,725 uh, biological systems of the cannabis plant? 372 00:15:31,225 --> 00:15:34,005 Or are they all essentially acting on the same 373 00:15:34,025 --> 00:15:35,725 system, but in different ways? 374 00:15:37,075 --> 00:15:40,205 - Yeah, they would definitely, um, act on, you know, 375 00:15:40,205 --> 00:15:42,205 the same system as a whole, the plant, the soil, 376 00:15:42,225 --> 00:15:43,445 the microbes and whatnot. 377 00:15:43,445 --> 00:15:44,605 But every, every part, 378 00:15:44,605 --> 00:15:47,325 everything you just mentioned has a slightly different, uh, 379 00:15:47,325 --> 00:15:49,805 effect on the biome from what I understand. 380 00:15:49,905 --> 00:15:52,085 Um, you know, helix and FXs can be great sources 381 00:15:52,105 --> 00:15:54,365 of organic matter for both the plant 382 00:15:54,365 --> 00:15:56,605 and the soil microbes to use as inputs. 383 00:15:56,605 --> 00:15:59,525 Uh, whereas things like seaweed extracts often contain plant 384 00:15:59,725 --> 00:16:00,845 hormones like cytokine and content 385 00:16:01,105 --> 00:16:05,685 and, um, um, I think some phosphorus 386 00:16:05,765 --> 00:16:06,845 or potassium as well. 387 00:16:07,505 --> 00:16:10,125 Um, so we get a little bit of plant nutrition from there, 388 00:16:10,225 --> 00:16:12,645 as well as some, you know, plant hormones, uh, applied 389 00:16:12,835 --> 00:16:14,405 outside of the plant body rather 390 00:16:14,405 --> 00:16:15,605 than being produced within it. 391 00:16:16,105 --> 00:16:19,205 Um, microbial innoculants, I think these guys, uh, 392 00:16:19,205 --> 00:16:20,365 really depends on your soil 393 00:16:20,365 --> 00:16:21,765 and the history of that, that system 394 00:16:21,765 --> 00:16:23,885 or your indoor cultivation system. 395 00:16:24,425 --> 00:16:26,605 Um, but those were primarily, you know, uh, 396 00:16:26,785 --> 00:16:29,245 if they're administered in a drench, be, uh, 397 00:16:29,245 --> 00:16:31,285 benefiting the root systems of the plants as well 398 00:16:31,285 --> 00:16:33,285 as the neighboring microbes that might already be there. 399 00:16:33,545 --> 00:16:35,565 And then we have, you know, foliar spray microbial 400 00:16:35,565 --> 00:16:38,485 inoculants too that help, um, outcompete things 401 00:16:38,485 --> 00:16:40,605 that might be negative to plant performances like 402 00:16:40,655 --> 00:16:41,685 molds and stuff like that. 403 00:16:42,385 --> 00:16:46,165 Um, so yeah, it, it really is a whole system of, of, uh, 404 00:16:46,165 --> 00:16:49,765 effects, you know, different, different building blocks, uh, 405 00:16:49,765 --> 00:16:53,165 from the bio stimulant world will help different areas 406 00:16:53,225 --> 00:16:54,365 of the plant, as you mentioned. 407 00:16:54,545 --> 00:16:57,805 And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a fun big umbrella term 408 00:16:57,805 --> 00:16:59,445 because there's so much going on underneath the, 409 00:16:59,445 --> 00:17:01,565 the umbrella that is biostimulants Mm-Hmm. 410 00:17:01,605 --> 00:17:04,845 - , it's also sounds like it's a very fine line 411 00:17:04,845 --> 00:17:07,925 between biostimulants and nutrition, um, 412 00:17:07,925 --> 00:17:09,565 because some of the, you know, some 413 00:17:09,565 --> 00:17:10,925 of the positive attributes 414 00:17:10,955 --> 00:17:14,965 that you mentioned from seaweed extracts are different, um, 415 00:17:15,745 --> 00:17:19,325 you know, nutritive, um, substances. 416 00:17:19,665 --> 00:17:22,845 Is, is there a line, is there a scientific line 417 00:17:22,845 --> 00:17:25,405 between nutrition and biostimulants, or, 418 00:17:25,465 --> 00:17:27,405 or do they kind of like see into each other? 419 00:17:27,765 --> 00:17:28,765 A lot of times 420 00:17:29,325 --> 00:17:32,365 - I think the line is maybe dotted as opposed to, uh, 421 00:17:32,365 --> 00:17:35,125 you know, less of a gradient, less of a firm line, um, where 422 00:17:35,155 --> 00:17:36,485 that, where a lot of bios, 423 00:17:36,485 --> 00:17:39,445 stimulant compounds can have some form of MPK 424 00:17:39,445 --> 00:17:40,965 or even micronutrients in there. 425 00:17:41,425 --> 00:17:43,445 Um, but then when we look at plant nutrition, 426 00:17:43,445 --> 00:17:46,245 those are products with NPK is almost the biggest number on 427 00:17:46,245 --> 00:17:48,245 the label besides the product name for the most part. 428 00:17:48,625 --> 00:17:51,085 Um, so that's kind of how I see the separation between, 429 00:17:51,225 --> 00:17:53,085 you know, nutritional inputs versus bio 430 00:17:53,085 --> 00:17:54,245 stimulant based inputs. 431 00:17:54,465 --> 00:17:56,205 But it is kind of a gray area 432 00:17:56,265 --> 00:17:58,845 or a gradient where you have some trickling effects of, 433 00:17:59,385 --> 00:18:00,525 of the, um, you know, 434 00:18:00,575 --> 00:18:03,965 amino acid type biostimulants having some, some form of NP 435 00:18:03,965 --> 00:18:05,845 or K in them as well. Yeah. At 436 00:18:06,175 --> 00:18:08,365 - Using that definition, it, uh, 437 00:18:08,395 --> 00:18:11,685 biostimulants becomes really, really close to, um, 438 00:18:13,515 --> 00:18:16,165 like, like trace nutrients and trace minerals. 439 00:18:16,235 --> 00:18:18,805 It's like, oh, if, if you're not talking about NPK 440 00:18:18,865 --> 00:18:21,845 and you're just talking about everything else, you're, 441 00:18:21,845 --> 00:18:24,885 you're talking about, you know, biostimulants, um, 442 00:18:26,155 --> 00:18:30,725 including things that we don't get in, in, you know, kind 443 00:18:30,725 --> 00:18:34,565 of targeted generic fertilizers that we add 444 00:18:34,565 --> 00:18:38,925 because we wanna round out the ri the rhizosphere with, 445 00:18:39,075 --> 00:18:41,525 with, um, essential micros. 446 00:18:42,795 --> 00:18:45,285 - Yeah, absolutely. And, um, one other thing 447 00:18:45,285 --> 00:18:46,845 to mention too is, is, you know, whether 448 00:18:46,905 --> 00:18:49,845 or not, uh, well, another, another reason I guess that the, 449 00:18:49,845 --> 00:18:50,965 the line between nutrition 450 00:18:50,965 --> 00:18:54,005 and bio stimulation is maybe a little bit more blurry at 451 00:18:54,005 --> 00:18:55,565 this point in science, uh, is 452 00:18:55,565 --> 00:18:58,965 because things like, um, certain bacteria have enzymes 453 00:18:58,965 --> 00:19:01,725 to unlock, uh, unavailable forms of phosphorus such 454 00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:04,445 as calcium phosphate, so unavailable for plant uptake. 455 00:19:04,785 --> 00:19:07,245 Um, so, you know, there's no nutrition in in that type 456 00:19:07,245 --> 00:19:08,325 of bacterial product, 457 00:19:08,585 --> 00:19:10,485 but it can help unlock nutrition 458 00:19:10,485 --> 00:19:11,685 that might already be in your soil. 459 00:19:12,265 --> 00:19:15,525 Uh, things like Michal products too, I think from 460 00:19:15,525 --> 00:19:18,205 what I've seen, um, also sometimes have a, 461 00:19:18,285 --> 00:19:19,525 a phosphorous content as well. 462 00:19:19,705 --> 00:19:23,205 So, um, you know, somebody might apply a Michle product 463 00:19:23,265 --> 00:19:25,525 for the first time and see a really great, uh, you know, 464 00:19:25,525 --> 00:19:27,085 flowering boost in their cannabis plants, 465 00:19:27,185 --> 00:19:30,205 and it's hard to attribute that to the michie being present 466 00:19:30,385 --> 00:19:32,605 or the, the increased amount 467 00:19:32,605 --> 00:19:34,045 of phosphorus being also available 468 00:19:34,065 --> 00:19:35,485 for the plant or, or probably both. 469 00:19:36,315 --> 00:19:38,765 - Yeah. I wish that when we try a whole bunch 470 00:19:38,765 --> 00:19:40,045 of new things at the same time 471 00:19:40,305 --> 00:19:41,405 and we get good results, 472 00:19:41,665 --> 00:19:43,805 we could just straight up ask the plant which 473 00:19:43,865 --> 00:19:45,005 one caused it, my friend. 474 00:19:46,515 --> 00:19:48,685 - That would be amazing. And yeah, I wanna, I wanna talk 475 00:19:48,685 --> 00:19:50,005 to the soil microbiome as well. 476 00:19:50,025 --> 00:19:51,885 I'm looking forward to those developments 477 00:19:51,935 --> 00:19:53,245 maybe with ai . 478 00:19:53,245 --> 00:19:55,165 - There we go. So, uh, 479 00:19:55,425 --> 00:19:58,805 before we move on from Biostimulants, um, let's, uh, 480 00:19:58,975 --> 00:20:00,325 let's bring this conversation 481 00:20:00,505 --> 00:20:03,805 and make it like real, um, real rubber hits the road. 482 00:20:04,345 --> 00:20:07,285 So for, for the cultivators who are listening, um, 483 00:20:07,425 --> 00:20:09,445 who are like, okay, I understand the difference 484 00:20:09,445 --> 00:20:11,685 between the synthetic and the biostimulants as much 485 00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:14,645 as we can get to definitionally, I like the idea of 486 00:20:15,325 --> 00:20:17,765 offering natural biostimulants to my plants. 487 00:20:18,305 --> 00:20:21,965 Um, what are some that you recommend from the natural world 488 00:20:22,355 --> 00:20:25,845 that regenerative farmers can, um, use at home 489 00:20:26,115 --> 00:20:28,765 that will have, you know, reliably good effects? 490 00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:30,765 You know, some of the, some of the stuff is so obscure 491 00:20:31,065 --> 00:20:32,725 and its impact is so small 492 00:20:33,035 --> 00:20:34,925 that you can have a debate about whether some 493 00:20:34,925 --> 00:20:37,325 of these did anything at all in particular, but, 494 00:20:37,385 --> 00:20:38,845 but what are a couple like tried 495 00:20:38,865 --> 00:20:42,125 and true naturally occurring bio stimulants that, um, 496 00:20:42,315 --> 00:20:45,685 that our listeners can, um, you know, explore for, 497 00:20:45,785 --> 00:20:47,365 for pretty assured benefit? 498 00:20:48,195 --> 00:20:50,165 - Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it really depends on 499 00:20:50,165 --> 00:20:52,165 where your plants are gonna be going if it's going into a 500 00:20:52,165 --> 00:20:54,685 hydroponic or controlled environmental system, um, 501 00:20:54,825 --> 00:20:58,045 versus a soil system, um, you know, plays a role. 502 00:20:58,045 --> 00:21:00,205 But I am biased to the, the soil microbes 503 00:21:00,205 --> 00:21:01,405 and the root adhering microbes 504 00:21:01,425 --> 00:21:02,805 or the plant growth promoting microbe. 505 00:21:02,825 --> 00:21:05,045 - So, so are we here at shaping fire? So ? 506 00:21:05,165 --> 00:21:08,085 - Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so yeah, I mean, from what, from 507 00:21:08,085 --> 00:21:09,365 what I've seen in both research 508 00:21:09,365 --> 00:21:13,245 and at home cultivation, uh, the sooner microbes get 509 00:21:13,815 --> 00:21:16,885 introduced to a plant root, um, I like to think about it 510 00:21:16,905 --> 00:21:19,005 as a really good protective and enhancing form. 511 00:21:19,025 --> 00:21:21,685 Uh, one of my favorite analogies here is think of that, 512 00:21:21,685 --> 00:21:25,005 that radical, that that firstly emerged plant root from your 513 00:21:25,005 --> 00:21:28,925 seed or your clone, um, being like an empty seat at a table 514 00:21:28,925 --> 00:21:30,325 with, you know, let's say a hundred seats. 515 00:21:30,785 --> 00:21:35,165 Um, the, the plant is gonna be exuding root ex exits all 516 00:21:35,165 --> 00:21:37,765 over that table and, um, through the roots. 517 00:21:37,825 --> 00:21:39,605 And those are basically like adding different types 518 00:21:39,605 --> 00:21:42,045 of food sources to the, the table here. 519 00:21:42,585 --> 00:21:44,285 Um, the sooner that those seats 520 00:21:44,285 --> 00:21:47,165 of the table can be colonized with plant benefiting 521 00:21:47,185 --> 00:21:49,045 or soil ecology benefiting, 522 00:21:49,105 --> 00:21:52,005 or even just free living, uh, microorganisms, um, 523 00:21:52,005 --> 00:21:54,285 maybe not colonized, but present and taking up space 524 00:21:54,305 --> 00:21:57,165 and competing for resources, the more likely, um, 525 00:21:57,385 --> 00:21:59,805 the cultivator, uh, would be, you know, 526 00:22:00,025 --> 00:22:02,165 not seeing things like plant disease. 527 00:22:02,305 --> 00:22:06,085 Um, the, if the seeds can be full filled 528 00:22:06,085 --> 00:22:08,525 with things like plant benefiting microorganisms, um, 529 00:22:08,525 --> 00:22:11,405 whether they're from a compost system, living soil, uh, 530 00:22:11,405 --> 00:22:13,605 indigenous microorganism, cultivating, uh, 531 00:22:13,625 --> 00:22:16,125 or even a biological inoculate you can buy off on a shelf, 532 00:22:16,605 --> 00:22:20,565 I think that is probably the best way to really prime young 533 00:22:20,585 --> 00:22:24,605 or new plants for, uh, you know, a successful harvest cycle. 534 00:22:25,145 --> 00:22:27,405 Um, filling those seats up with the table, uh, 535 00:22:27,725 --> 00:22:29,405 allowing those resources to be used by things 536 00:22:29,405 --> 00:22:30,565 that are maybe symbiotic 537 00:22:30,565 --> 00:22:32,205 or mutualist with the plants to, you know, 538 00:22:32,205 --> 00:22:34,045 the benefit is, is a feedback loop. 539 00:22:34,305 --> 00:22:36,645 Um, whereas a pathogen might only, you know, 540 00:22:36,675 --> 00:22:39,205 consume a root exit until it can get in high enough numbers 541 00:22:39,305 --> 00:22:41,925 to penetrate the plant cell and then become pathogenic. 542 00:22:42,185 --> 00:22:44,325 Uh, the less seats at that table that are 543 00:22:44,325 --> 00:22:46,245 for things like fusarium or phytopthora 544 00:22:46,245 --> 00:22:50,165 or pythium, um, the less likely, uh, you know, 545 00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,125 that plant is gonna have a negative effect. 546 00:22:52,725 --> 00:22:56,045 - I really like that seats at a table, uh, um, example 547 00:22:56,155 --> 00:22:57,925 that I can really envision that. 548 00:22:58,025 --> 00:23:02,285 And so, so your first answer is to, you know, add a bunch 549 00:23:02,545 --> 00:23:07,245 of, uh, you know, of, of indigenous microbes, um, so 550 00:23:07,245 --> 00:23:10,405 that the seats of the table can get filled with, um, with, 551 00:23:10,425 --> 00:23:14,125 uh, probiotic folks before anything pathogenic shows up. 552 00:23:14,985 --> 00:23:16,525 And, um, you know, uh, 553 00:23:16,785 --> 00:23:18,685 and there's a, you know, there's a, there's a, 554 00:23:18,685 --> 00:23:21,685 there's a range of ways that we talk about on this show 555 00:23:21,705 --> 00:23:24,485 to add microbes and, and, 556 00:23:24,545 --> 00:23:26,325 and you're like, just, you know, add them, 557 00:23:26,465 --> 00:23:29,285 add them right away as soon as, as soon as the plant starts. 558 00:23:30,065 --> 00:23:33,725 Um, for the second one, is there something 559 00:23:33,805 --> 00:23:37,205 that might be more nutrition based instead of like, 560 00:23:37,205 --> 00:23:40,005 having good neighbors based like microbes 561 00:23:40,155 --> 00:23:42,925 that you would also recommend as a, um, 562 00:23:42,925 --> 00:23:44,805 naturally occurring bios stimulant? 563 00:23:45,355 --> 00:23:47,445 - Yeah, so I think my, my bias is really gonna show 564 00:23:47,445 --> 00:23:48,565 with this answer, , 565 00:23:48,565 --> 00:23:50,845 but, um, uh, you know, I talked about the probiotics, right? 566 00:23:50,925 --> 00:23:52,805 I also think that prebiotics are just as important, 567 00:23:52,855 --> 00:23:55,365 especially in, in soilless systems or, 568 00:23:55,385 --> 00:23:57,685 or, you know, uh, near sterile systems, right? 569 00:23:57,755 --> 00:23:58,965 Hydroponics and things like that. 570 00:23:59,505 --> 00:24:01,725 Um, plants evolve roots 571 00:24:01,875 --> 00:24:03,685 with their relationships with microbes. 572 00:24:03,745 --> 00:24:04,925 Uh, Dr. White and all 573 00:24:04,925 --> 00:24:07,445 of his research surrounding Oph Fiji has really been, uh, 574 00:24:07,525 --> 00:24:10,645 a beneficial disruption in, in agricultural research. 575 00:24:10,645 --> 00:24:12,325 Yeah. And I think that, uh, a lot 576 00:24:12,325 --> 00:24:13,525 of growers have tried really hard 577 00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:15,765 to maintain a sterile system, which, you know, 578 00:24:15,765 --> 00:24:16,925 your plants don't want sterile systems. 579 00:24:16,925 --> 00:24:19,805 They're often, you know, exuding, uh, cakes 580 00:24:19,805 --> 00:24:21,285 and cookies, sugars 581 00:24:21,285 --> 00:24:24,405 and carbon into the, the surrounding soils to try 582 00:24:24,405 --> 00:24:25,845 to get microbes to colonize there. 583 00:24:25,945 --> 00:24:27,965 So, uh, a long way to answer your question, 584 00:24:28,205 --> 00:24:30,885 I think like prebiotics, things like organic materials, 585 00:24:31,015 --> 00:24:33,565 humic, fulvic acids, um, we know what those can do 586 00:24:33,565 --> 00:24:34,685 to benefit the plant and, 587 00:24:34,705 --> 00:24:36,885 and how they are benefiting the soil microbiome 588 00:24:36,985 --> 00:24:39,365 and how that's benefiting the plant is still being 589 00:24:39,515 --> 00:24:40,605 kind of flushed out. 590 00:24:41,025 --> 00:24:42,845 Um, but I do think that, uh, 591 00:24:44,275 --> 00:24:46,325 your plants are gonna benefit from these compounds 592 00:24:46,325 --> 00:24:47,365 that you're applying, whether 593 00:24:47,365 --> 00:24:48,845 or not they're for the plant or the bacteria. 594 00:24:49,105 --> 00:24:52,405 And, uh, usually the application rates from things, 595 00:24:52,405 --> 00:24:53,885 whether you're whipping up a compost tea 596 00:24:53,905 --> 00:24:55,885 or doing like a, a plant extract 597 00:24:56,185 --> 00:24:59,485 or purchasing something, um, there's enough to go around 598 00:24:59,665 --> 00:25:01,525 for both the plants and the microbes. 599 00:25:01,995 --> 00:25:03,405 - Fantastic. I love that. 600 00:25:03,405 --> 00:25:06,445 When, when we keep on coming back to, you know, grab plants 601 00:25:06,445 --> 00:25:07,725 that are already in your yard 602 00:25:08,145 --> 00:25:12,845 and let them, um, decay in water, you know, spin that 603 00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:15,005 for 36 hours and then pour that back on your plants. 604 00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:18,965 I love that cycle, bringing back, um, you know, 605 00:25:18,965 --> 00:25:20,525 what's already in your yard, the plants, 606 00:25:20,585 --> 00:25:23,685 the grass clippings, the forest duff, whatever it is, 607 00:25:24,085 --> 00:25:25,445 incubate it for a little bit 608 00:25:25,625 --> 00:25:27,885 to make those microbes super abundant 609 00:25:27,885 --> 00:25:29,405 and then just pour it back on your plants. 610 00:25:30,825 --> 00:25:32,245 - Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that, 611 00:25:32,245 --> 00:25:34,565 and it's, it's always, you know, a fun term is like kind 612 00:25:34,565 --> 00:25:36,245 of bio prospecting being out. 613 00:25:36,425 --> 00:25:37,485 Ooh, I like that. 614 00:25:37,585 --> 00:25:40,565 In, in soil, uh, in the woods, in the forest, 615 00:25:40,745 --> 00:25:42,765 or anywhere that, you know, it's okay to kind of, 616 00:25:43,105 --> 00:25:45,165 I'm gonna use the word sample from, um, 617 00:25:45,365 --> 00:25:47,205 I know you guys have talked about indigenous 618 00:25:47,225 --> 00:25:48,325 microorganisms here. 619 00:25:48,425 --> 00:25:52,045 Um, but yeah, like the, the ability to kind of 620 00:25:52,555 --> 00:25:56,925 collect some microbial diversity, um, from maybe a forest 621 00:25:57,265 --> 00:25:59,285 or, uh, somebody with a 622 00:25:59,865 --> 00:26:02,845 better historical soil health practice than maybe the plot 623 00:26:02,845 --> 00:26:05,405 you inherited, um, is also a great way to, you know, add 624 00:26:05,405 --> 00:26:06,485 that microbial diversity. 625 00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:10,405 Um, if you, you know, we have these like notions of, 626 00:26:10,545 --> 00:26:14,485 of plant micro symbiosis, uh, in science where, you know, 627 00:26:14,485 --> 00:26:16,685 we wanna look at a really happy cannabis plant 628 00:26:16,685 --> 00:26:18,765 and then collect some soil microbes from its roots 629 00:26:18,785 --> 00:26:21,205 and then take that home and apply it to our cannabis plants. 630 00:26:21,305 --> 00:26:22,805 So they do well too. Um, 631 00:26:22,905 --> 00:26:25,005 but there's a lot of functional redundancy in the, 632 00:26:25,005 --> 00:26:27,805 the rhizosphere microbiome world, whether that's a palm tree 633 00:26:27,905 --> 00:26:29,805 or a cannabis plant or some grass. 634 00:26:30,385 --> 00:26:32,605 Um, so you might even be able to get some type 635 00:26:32,605 --> 00:26:35,445 of beneficial microbial function from sampling something 636 00:26:35,445 --> 00:26:38,405 like grass, uh, and applying it to your, to your home grow, 637 00:26:38,665 --> 00:26:40,165 or, you know, making a compost tea 638 00:26:40,165 --> 00:26:41,285 out of it, or a soil slurry. 639 00:26:41,975 --> 00:26:44,485 - Right on. So, uh, so dear listener, 640 00:26:44,485 --> 00:26:48,085 if you're very interested in, in moving, uh, these microbes 641 00:26:48,105 --> 00:26:49,445 around, um, sit tight, 642 00:26:49,645 --> 00:26:51,565 'cause we're gonna be coming back to this topic again 643 00:26:51,565 --> 00:26:53,645 with set two or in set two. 644 00:26:54,105 --> 00:26:57,285 So Michael, um, I wanna move us on past biostimulants now, 645 00:26:57,465 --> 00:26:59,565 uh, to what I consider one of their cousins 646 00:26:59,595 --> 00:27:02,485 that I know less about, which is, uh, 647 00:27:02,535 --> 00:27:04,005 plant growth regulators. 648 00:27:04,225 --> 00:27:07,765 And, you know, I, I first got turned on to, uh, 649 00:27:07,775 --> 00:27:12,005 plant growth regulators kind of as a, as a slur, as a dis 650 00:27:12,515 --> 00:27:16,445 when I would come across like really rock hard, um, 651 00:27:16,825 --> 00:27:18,765 indoor Rockwell buds, 652 00:27:19,185 --> 00:27:22,125 and that, that, you know, I, I would squeeze them. 653 00:27:22,125 --> 00:27:25,525 And as a, you know, as a, as a lifelong outdoor grower, 654 00:27:25,675 --> 00:27:27,325 when you squeeze my flowers, there's, 655 00:27:27,325 --> 00:27:28,365 there's some give to them. 656 00:27:28,595 --> 00:27:31,525 Whereas these were like, like literally rocks. 657 00:27:31,545 --> 00:27:34,605 And I was all like, what, what kind of cannabis is this? 658 00:27:34,605 --> 00:27:36,125 Right? And people are like, you know, 659 00:27:36,195 --> 00:27:40,125 because I tend to hang out with, you know, organicy farmers, 660 00:27:40,505 --> 00:27:42,805 they'd say something like, ah, it's those PGRs 661 00:27:42,835 --> 00:27:44,805 that they use, you know, and I'm like, I don't know 662 00:27:44,805 --> 00:27:45,965 what those are, but, but I, 663 00:27:46,085 --> 00:27:47,645 I certainly don't want any part of that. 664 00:27:48,265 --> 00:27:52,045 And, and over time I realized it's true that synthetic PGRs 665 00:27:52,305 --> 00:27:54,445 and, and what they have a tendency to do 666 00:27:54,545 --> 00:27:57,485 to the plant are not something that I'm normally going for. 667 00:27:57,905 --> 00:28:00,685 But then I started to realize, um, while, 668 00:28:00,685 --> 00:28:04,525 while studying the soil food web, that there are actually 669 00:28:05,155 --> 00:28:09,885 naturally occurring, um, biochemicals in plants that, 670 00:28:10,105 --> 00:28:14,925 um, you know, that we can wild craft that also are pro, um, 671 00:28:15,215 --> 00:28:19,765 plant growth regulators so that maybe you can get, you know, 672 00:28:19,825 --> 00:28:23,045 harder flowers that have got a, a market attraction 673 00:28:23,225 --> 00:28:27,485 and an aesthetic attraction in ways that don't also, um, 674 00:28:28,065 --> 00:28:29,205 you know, injure the plant 675 00:28:29,205 --> 00:28:30,485 and make it, you know, need 676 00:28:30,485 --> 00:28:32,845 to be grown in a sterile environment instead of the yard. 677 00:28:33,105 --> 00:28:36,325 So, so, so I'm gonna ask you, number one, would you, 678 00:28:36,325 --> 00:28:37,845 would you, would you explain for us 679 00:28:37,845 --> 00:28:39,605 what plant growth regulators are 680 00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:43,765 and, um, where we may find them in, 681 00:28:44,185 --> 00:28:45,405 uh, the natural world? 682 00:28:46,315 --> 00:28:48,005 - Yeah. Um, so the way I kind of, uh, 683 00:28:48,005 --> 00:28:50,285 understand plant growth regulators would be just kind of, 684 00:28:50,465 --> 00:28:54,245 um, hormones, uh, the, the plant hormones, 685 00:28:54,245 --> 00:28:56,565 things like ox oxygens, giin, cytokinin, 686 00:28:56,625 --> 00:28:58,605 and, uh, you know, natural sources 687 00:28:58,705 --> 00:29:01,725 of those things like seaweed is a really, um, common 688 00:29:02,255 --> 00:29:04,805 input used for cytokinin, uh, PGRs. 689 00:29:05,385 --> 00:29:09,285 Um, I think, um, like we talked about a little bit earlier, 690 00:29:09,585 --> 00:29:12,005 uh, you know, when you do the wildcrafting, 691 00:29:12,005 --> 00:29:14,165 you do the natural pro, uh, process and, 692 00:29:14,225 --> 00:29:16,365 and take your plant inputs or get materials 693 00:29:16,365 --> 00:29:17,965 and do the extraction yourself, 694 00:29:17,985 --> 00:29:21,365 you are likely getting things that might be missed, uh, 695 00:29:21,385 --> 00:29:23,725 as opposed to one, an oxen is purified in a lab 696 00:29:23,725 --> 00:29:24,885 and dried out into a powder 697 00:29:24,945 --> 00:29:26,485 and then, you know, mailed to you in a tube 698 00:29:26,545 --> 00:29:27,645 to dip your plant roots in 699 00:29:27,645 --> 00:29:29,205 before rooting them . 700 00:29:29,905 --> 00:29:31,765 Um, yeah, I mean, I, the way I kind 701 00:29:31,765 --> 00:29:34,125 of see 'em would just be plant hormones, uh, 702 00:29:34,275 --> 00:29:36,285 whether they're natural or synthetic. 703 00:29:36,525 --> 00:29:38,205 I think they can be helpful for growers 704 00:29:38,225 --> 00:29:40,525 and, you know, helpful for making, uh, deadlines 705 00:29:40,525 --> 00:29:41,765 and yield improvements and quality 706 00:29:41,765 --> 00:29:43,085 improvements and things like that. 707 00:29:43,705 --> 00:29:47,525 Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I still kind of am in the school 708 00:29:47,525 --> 00:29:49,045 of thought of, you know, these, 709 00:29:49,045 --> 00:29:51,845 these natural processes like breaking down, uh, 710 00:29:51,845 --> 00:29:54,925 organic inputs, um, would, we're, 711 00:29:54,925 --> 00:29:56,765 we're probably missing something when we're applying just 712 00:29:56,765 --> 00:29:58,925 to pure compound, but, uh, further, you know, 713 00:29:58,925 --> 00:30:00,645 science needs to prove that . 714 00:30:01,185 --> 00:30:03,245 - So, so if we're talking about ge, you know, 715 00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:06,085 getting these oxen and cytokines and giin and, and, 716 00:30:06,145 --> 00:30:07,445 and putting them on, 717 00:30:07,445 --> 00:30:08,565 and they we're getting 'em from plants, 718 00:30:08,665 --> 00:30:12,085 it sounds awful lot like we're talking about biostimulants 719 00:30:12,085 --> 00:30:13,645 again, and, and, and, 720 00:30:13,665 --> 00:30:15,605 and perhaps there is an argument to be made 721 00:30:15,605 --> 00:30:17,445 that plant growth regulators 722 00:30:17,865 --> 00:30:22,405 and natural bio stimulants are all in the bucket of 723 00:30:23,385 --> 00:30:26,645 plants that have got chemicals, hormones, 724 00:30:26,745 --> 00:30:30,245 and nutrition that are also used by the cannabis plant 725 00:30:30,475 --> 00:30:32,205 that we just wanna wild craft, 726 00:30:32,225 --> 00:30:35,405 or what's that term you used, bio prospect, um, 727 00:30:35,585 --> 00:30:37,165 you know, on our properties. 728 00:30:37,745 --> 00:30:39,605 And, and then just allow them 729 00:30:39,745 --> 00:30:42,005 to either degrade in their basic form 730 00:30:42,145 --> 00:30:45,005 or incubate them with, you know, oxygen 731 00:30:45,585 --> 00:30:47,205 and then apply them to our plants. 732 00:30:47,265 --> 00:30:49,885 It, it sounds like it's the same system 733 00:30:50,475 --> 00:30:52,445 just using different vocabulary. 734 00:30:53,075 --> 00:30:54,445 - Yeah, I would agree with you on that. 735 00:30:54,525 --> 00:30:57,685 I do think, like, you know, the PGR term fits, fits nicely 736 00:30:57,685 --> 00:30:58,925 underneath the umbrella term 737 00:30:58,925 --> 00:31:02,045 that is biostimulants in my world, um, and maybe the world. 738 00:31:02,145 --> 00:31:04,325 Uh, but yeah, you know, you think about, um, 739 00:31:05,265 --> 00:31:10,005 how these compounds, um, ma mainly, 740 00:31:10,065 --> 00:31:11,925 you know, the, the plant is naturally producing these things 741 00:31:11,925 --> 00:31:12,965 when it meets roots. 742 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:16,125 There's ox oxygens being produced inside the plant, um, to, 743 00:31:16,185 --> 00:31:18,765 to signal those mar stem cells to turn into roots. 744 00:31:19,225 --> 00:31:22,605 Um, but having, you know, furthered science, uh, 745 00:31:22,605 --> 00:31:25,765 in agriculture, we as growers can, can use these things 746 00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:28,445 to get effects that we want to, I know, um, in a lot 747 00:31:28,445 --> 00:31:30,725 of the ornamental crop industry things like, uh, 748 00:31:31,195 --> 00:31:33,565 anti gis are sprayed on, you know, flowers 749 00:31:33,705 --> 00:31:37,565 to keep them like tight and, uh, you know, not too lagy 750 00:31:37,565 --> 00:31:38,885 or stretched out from the pot. 751 00:31:38,885 --> 00:31:42,645 That way they make a nice compact, bushy, you know, ponta 752 00:31:42,645 --> 00:31:44,205 or a zinnia or something like that. 753 00:31:44,705 --> 00:31:47,205 Um, so yeah, it, it's interesting to think about the use 754 00:31:47,205 --> 00:31:50,245 of PG in products that are gonna be consumed 755 00:31:50,305 --> 00:31:52,725 by people rather than just enjoyed by, uh, 756 00:31:52,725 --> 00:31:55,125 like aesthetically like flowers and, and things like that. 757 00:31:55,705 --> 00:32:00,585 Um, and I think, um, I need to do more reading on, 758 00:32:00,605 --> 00:32:03,345 on, you know, the, the, the, uh, the consumption of things 759 00:32:03,345 --> 00:32:05,665 that might be residual on flower if the plant wasn't able 760 00:32:05,665 --> 00:32:07,905 to use all them and, and, or even just surfactants 761 00:32:07,905 --> 00:32:09,185 to get them to spread as well. 762 00:32:10,325 --> 00:32:12,465 - So when I have talked with other 763 00:32:13,225 --> 00:32:17,665 regenerative farmers about the naturally occurring pgs 764 00:32:17,665 --> 00:32:21,345 that they use, I only have ever gotten one response either. 765 00:32:21,345 --> 00:32:24,025 Either the farmers don't think of them in that way, 766 00:32:24,025 --> 00:32:27,305 and so they're just using degraded plant, you know, 767 00:32:27,305 --> 00:32:30,425 compost teas or, or spun aerated teas. 768 00:32:31,125 --> 00:32:33,665 So they'll, they'll either say nothing, they don't, 769 00:32:33,665 --> 00:32:34,985 they don't use one intentionally 770 00:32:35,085 --> 00:32:36,705 or they will say banana peels. 771 00:32:37,325 --> 00:32:40,885 And so, so, um, are, is there any, oh, 772 00:32:40,885 --> 00:32:42,005 this is kind of a nice pun. 773 00:32:42,065 --> 00:32:45,925 Is there any low hanging fruit that you recommend where, 774 00:32:46,055 --> 00:32:49,845 where we can go for, um, the, the hormones 775 00:32:50,275 --> 00:32:52,245 that have the effect on the cannabis plant 776 00:32:52,355 --> 00:32:53,605 that we're looking for? 777 00:32:53,745 --> 00:32:56,285 So we don't have to go to synthetics, for example, 778 00:32:56,585 --> 00:33:01,245 if we want tighter flowers and a more compact overall plant. 779 00:33:01,625 --> 00:33:03,845 Uh, do we wanna go to a banana peel 780 00:33:03,905 --> 00:33:06,125 or are there things that we may have access to 781 00:33:06,155 --> 00:33:08,285 that you think might be, um, you know, 782 00:33:08,285 --> 00:33:09,405 better for us to go after? 783 00:33:10,275 --> 00:33:12,325 - Yeah, I think ultimately, I don't have any sort 784 00:33:12,325 --> 00:33:14,125 of materials off the top of my head on, 785 00:33:14,145 --> 00:33:15,765 on things like anti gires. 786 00:33:15,805 --> 00:33:17,685 I know seaweed is a good one for cytokine in. 787 00:33:17,985 --> 00:33:21,045 Um, I think people have used, uh, you know, honeys for, 788 00:33:21,065 --> 00:33:23,045 for ox oxygens, whether that's, I'm not sure if 789 00:33:23,045 --> 00:33:24,605 that's actually a root increaser 790 00:33:24,605 --> 00:33:27,725 or if it's just a good antimicrobial for, uh, you know, 791 00:33:28,045 --> 00:33:29,965 pathogens that might infect the plant before it can root. 792 00:33:30,465 --> 00:33:33,685 Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm a huge composter, um, 793 00:33:34,145 --> 00:33:36,805 and I'm a big fan of verma compost as well. 794 00:33:36,875 --> 00:33:38,565 Yeah. Um, so I think, you know, doing 795 00:33:38,565 --> 00:33:41,005 that stuff in the backyard when space allows, uh, 796 00:33:41,005 --> 00:33:42,805 there's indoor systems that are really great too. 797 00:33:43,005 --> 00:33:45,405 I have a, a friend that did like a three bucket stack system 798 00:33:45,405 --> 00:33:47,285 where the worms were in the, the bottom, 799 00:33:47,465 --> 00:33:48,645 the new food waste went in the top, 800 00:33:48,645 --> 00:33:50,525 and when they ran out of food, they would kind of dig up 801 00:33:50,525 --> 00:33:52,405 and kind of make it a closed loop system. 802 00:33:52,545 --> 00:33:54,005 So there are ways to kind 803 00:33:54,005 --> 00:33:57,085 of get those organic materials broken down depending on, um, 804 00:33:57,185 --> 00:33:58,205 the space you might have. 805 00:33:58,385 --> 00:34:01,885 Um, yeah, I, you know, I, the other kind of school 806 00:34:01,885 --> 00:34:04,285 of thought too is when I was a lot younger, I, 807 00:34:04,445 --> 00:34:07,245 I was always told, you know, dig a hole, six 808 00:34:07,245 --> 00:34:09,605 or seven feet underground, bury a couple dead fish there, 809 00:34:09,605 --> 00:34:11,285 and that's where we'll plant our cannabis plants the 810 00:34:11,525 --> 00:34:13,165 following spring, right in the fall. 811 00:34:13,305 --> 00:34:15,645 Uh, and it's been cool to kind of enter more 812 00:34:15,645 --> 00:34:17,325 of the sciencey realm of this kind of stuff 813 00:34:17,325 --> 00:34:18,485 and seeing like, oh, well, yeah, 814 00:34:18,485 --> 00:34:20,725 the fish breaks down into a, a ammonium 815 00:34:20,725 --> 00:34:24,525 or some form of an H four or three, um, and the emulsions 816 00:34:24,705 --> 00:34:26,325 and, you know, they, they provide nutrition 817 00:34:26,325 --> 00:34:27,485 from those breakdown products. 818 00:34:27,585 --> 00:34:29,085 Um, so I just, just, one thing 819 00:34:29,085 --> 00:34:31,125 that I love about the cannabis science industry is, 820 00:34:31,185 --> 00:34:34,565 or just cannabis science in general, is kind of seeing, um, 821 00:34:34,865 --> 00:34:37,725 you know, old school of thought growers 822 00:34:37,725 --> 00:34:40,205 with these really wise practices 823 00:34:40,355 --> 00:34:43,005 that we are just now starting to understand, uh, 824 00:34:43,025 --> 00:34:45,485 and can be measured scientifically with, with, you know, 825 00:34:45,505 --> 00:34:47,245 how does a fish break down in the soil 826 00:34:47,305 --> 00:34:49,405 and what types of plant inputs does it turn into? 827 00:34:50,115 --> 00:34:54,005 - Yeah. All, all of this old school, um, cultivation magic, 828 00:34:54,185 --> 00:34:56,365 you know, eventually science catches up with it 829 00:34:56,365 --> 00:34:58,965 and it's like, oh yeah, I guess, I guess, you know, 830 00:34:59,105 --> 00:35:01,285 the old hippies were right in what they were doing here. 831 00:35:01,525 --> 00:35:02,645 Absolutely. It's like, yeah, yeah. 832 00:35:02,745 --> 00:35:05,845 Uh, everything old is new again, so Right on. 833 00:35:05,915 --> 00:35:08,365 Well, uh, let's, let's wrap up this first set here. 834 00:35:08,625 --> 00:35:11,765 Um, we're gonna take a short break and be right back. 835 00:35:12,065 --> 00:35:13,445 You are listening to Shaping Fire, 836 00:35:13,545 --> 00:35:16,565 and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue. 837 00:35:19,485 --> 00:35:22,095 Revenue is tight for cannabis businesses right now. 838 00:35:22,105 --> 00:35:23,375 There is no question about it. 839 00:35:23,675 --> 00:35:26,535 And when revenue tightens, businesses need 840 00:35:26,615 --> 00:35:29,455 to spend smarter on advertising, instead 841 00:35:29,455 --> 00:35:32,215 of throwing obscene money at hanging your company's logo 842 00:35:32,285 --> 00:35:34,175 from the rafters at your next convention, 843 00:35:34,485 --> 00:35:37,430 perhaps consider placing commercials on shaping fire. 844 00:35:38,145 --> 00:35:39,925 And if you are a very small business, 845 00:35:40,175 --> 00:35:41,805 there is simply no better bang 846 00:35:41,805 --> 00:35:43,925 for your buck than commercials on shaping fire, 847 00:35:44,455 --> 00:35:45,925 especially if your products are 848 00:35:45,925 --> 00:35:47,725 for regeneratively minded cultivators. 849 00:35:49,245 --> 00:35:51,045 Advertising on this show allows us time 850 00:35:51,045 --> 00:35:52,805 to talk about your product, service, 851 00:35:52,945 --> 00:35:55,325 or brand in a way that really lets people know 852 00:35:55,605 --> 00:35:57,365 what sets your company apart from the others. 853 00:35:58,395 --> 00:36:00,525 Bold people who own companies know 854 00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:01,885 that getting into relationship 855 00:36:01,885 --> 00:36:03,485 with their customers is essential. 856 00:36:03,995 --> 00:36:05,045 That is what we offer. 857 00:36:05,905 --> 00:36:07,165 We will explain your service 858 00:36:07,305 --> 00:36:09,685 or product, what sets it apart as desirable, 859 00:36:10,105 --> 00:36:12,205 and help our audience get in contact with you. 860 00:36:12,795 --> 00:36:14,125 It's pretty simple, really. 861 00:36:14,845 --> 00:36:16,925 Advertising does not have to be all whizzbang smoke 862 00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:18,645 and mirrors nowadays. 863 00:36:18,765 --> 00:36:21,685 I find that people prefer just to be spoken to calmly, 864 00:36:22,325 --> 00:36:24,085 accurately, and with good intentions. 865 00:36:24,785 --> 00:36:26,925 If you wanna make your own commercial spot, you can do 866 00:36:26,925 --> 00:36:29,765 that too with a commercial on shaping fire. 867 00:36:29,905 --> 00:36:31,605 You'll reach your customers in the privacy 868 00:36:31,665 --> 00:36:33,325 of their headphones right now 869 00:36:33,745 --> 00:36:35,725 and will continue to reach new listeners 870 00:36:35,745 --> 00:36:37,765 as they explore the shaping Fire Back catalog 871 00:36:37,905 --> 00:36:39,045 of episodes again 872 00:36:39,265 --> 00:36:40,565 and again for years, 873 00:36:41,685 --> 00:36:44,925 a spot on shaping fire costs less than a postcard per 874 00:36:44,925 --> 00:36:47,325 person, and the shaping fire audience is full 875 00:36:47,325 --> 00:36:50,045 of smart cannabis enthusiasts, cultivators, 876 00:36:50,145 --> 00:36:52,645 and entrepreneurs who are always curious to learn. 877 00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:54,725 And right now, in the new year, 878 00:36:55,145 --> 00:36:57,645 we are booking the few open spots we have for the rest 879 00:36:57,665 --> 00:36:58,765 of 2024. 880 00:36:59,465 --> 00:37:01,485 I'd love for you to be one of our new advertisers. 881 00:37:02,425 --> 00:37:03,445 Do yourself a solid, 882 00:37:03,665 --> 00:37:05,885 and contact us today for rates on podcast 883 00:37:06,065 --> 00:37:07,445 and Instagram advertising. 884 00:37:08,215 --> 00:37:12,325 Email hotspot@shapingfire.com to find out more. 885 00:37:15,025 --> 00:37:17,445 As cannabis regulations become more demanding 886 00:37:17,465 --> 00:37:19,125 and consumers become more educated, 887 00:37:19,265 --> 00:37:21,485 it is increasingly important to avoid the use 888 00:37:21,485 --> 00:37:23,605 of chemical pesticides when cultivating cannabis. 889 00:37:24,135 --> 00:37:26,405 Beneficial insects have been used for decades 890 00:37:26,785 --> 00:37:29,765 by the greenhouse, vegetable and ornamental plant industry. 891 00:37:30,105 --> 00:37:33,165 And today, many cannabis cultivators are moving from sprays 892 00:37:33,165 --> 00:37:35,245 and chemicals to beneficial insects. 893 00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:38,925 Coper has the beneficial insects, mites 894 00:37:38,925 --> 00:37:41,325 and nematodes, microbials, sticky cards 895 00:37:41,465 --> 00:37:42,645 and air distribution units. 896 00:37:42,985 --> 00:37:45,765 You need to partner with nature to defend your garden. 897 00:37:46,395 --> 00:37:48,645 Whether you manage acres of canopy 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937 00:39:37,265 --> 00:39:39,485 Gas Lamp Seeds has something for everyone. 938 00:39:39,675 --> 00:39:44,405 With over 650 feminized strains, 300 regular varieties, 939 00:39:44,425 --> 00:39:46,805 and over 200 auto flowers to choose from. 940 00:39:47,535 --> 00:39:50,765 Names you know you can trust, like compound genetics, 941 00:39:51,165 --> 00:39:55,365 Humboldt Seed Company Night Owl in-House, fast Buds, 942 00:39:55,755 --> 00:39:57,365 Nome Automatics and Ethos. 943 00:39:58,185 --> 00:40:00,245 And we both know that there are other seed banks 944 00:40:00,265 --> 00:40:02,925 who will take your money but have no customer service. 945 00:40:03,805 --> 00:40:06,765 I invited Gas Lamp to advertise on shaping fire 946 00:40:06,765 --> 00:40:09,445 after hearing so many good stories about them From my 947 00:40:09,445 --> 00:40:12,205 friends, they have a plus customer service 948 00:40:12,515 --> 00:40:14,285 with lightning fast response times. 949 00:40:15,225 --> 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Welcome back. 968 00:41:02,425 --> 00:41:03,805 You are listening to Shaping Fire. 969 00:41:04,045 --> 00:41:05,605 I am your host Shose, 970 00:41:05,745 --> 00:41:08,685 and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue. 971 00:41:08,985 --> 00:41:11,485 So during the first set, we talked all about, um, 972 00:41:11,665 --> 00:41:15,525 bio stimulants and where to find them in nature, as well as, 973 00:41:15,785 --> 00:41:18,205 um, the idea of plant growth regulators. 974 00:41:18,205 --> 00:41:21,285 And we kept on coming back to this idea that, um, 975 00:41:21,395 --> 00:41:23,685 what we wanna do to help, um, 976 00:41:23,785 --> 00:41:26,965 our cannabis plants the most is to help the rhizosphere 977 00:41:26,985 --> 00:41:29,525 to make sure that the nutrition 978 00:41:29,745 --> 00:41:33,365 and variety of microbes are incredibly varied, um, 979 00:41:33,745 --> 00:41:35,205 our our indigenous, so 980 00:41:35,205 --> 00:41:38,365 that they survive in our local natural environment, 981 00:41:38,985 --> 00:41:43,165 and that we can bio prospect them all over our own property 982 00:41:43,165 --> 00:41:45,765 and near us, uh, by just going to other plants 983 00:41:45,765 --> 00:41:47,005 that we already have locally. 984 00:41:47,345 --> 00:41:49,085 And, um, not only does that save us money, 985 00:41:49,385 --> 00:41:50,485 but we know that these plants 986 00:41:50,485 --> 00:41:54,605 that are already surviving locally are already covered in, 987 00:41:54,745 --> 00:41:56,605 um, indigenous microorganisms. 988 00:41:56,825 --> 00:41:57,885 So saves us money 989 00:41:57,945 --> 00:41:59,565 and is exactly the tool for the job 990 00:42:00,105 --> 00:42:02,325 to help you have your best grow ever. 991 00:42:02,545 --> 00:42:05,525 So here in set two, we're gonna talk about the care 992 00:42:05,585 --> 00:42:07,805 and tending of the microbe community 993 00:42:07,905 --> 00:42:10,085 that's in your rhizosphere, right? 994 00:42:10,185 --> 00:42:13,565 So these are, these are, um, all of the residents 995 00:42:13,665 --> 00:42:18,005 of the rhizosphere, the root zone, um, that make up the, 996 00:42:18,065 --> 00:42:21,445 the, the, the soil food web that is within the soil. 997 00:42:21,545 --> 00:42:24,605 As we all know, the, the soil food web also is 998 00:42:24,605 --> 00:42:26,765 above the soil, and it also takes place in water. 999 00:42:27,185 --> 00:42:30,605 But specifically we're talking about this, this neighborhood 1000 00:42:30,945 --> 00:42:33,405 of the roots of the cannabis plant. 1001 00:42:34,025 --> 00:42:38,805 So when I was listening to Michael Delegue on, um, 1002 00:42:38,945 --> 00:42:42,965 our friend Layton Morrison's show, um, um, uh, he 1003 00:42:42,985 --> 00:42:44,765 and I, I guess I'm talking to the audience, Michael, 1004 00:42:44,865 --> 00:42:46,005 and to you kind of third person. 1005 00:42:46,745 --> 00:42:51,565 You, you were talking on Layton's show, um, about your, um, 1006 00:42:51,905 --> 00:42:56,365 uh, uh, love of, of bi biochar, 1007 00:42:56,365 --> 00:42:58,885 which we're big fans of on the show as well. 1008 00:42:59,505 --> 00:43:00,845 And, and, um, and, 1009 00:43:00,845 --> 00:43:02,485 and I really liked how you kind of 1010 00:43:03,065 --> 00:43:05,285 anthropomorphized, uh, the microbes. 1011 00:43:05,405 --> 00:43:07,885 'cause you were talking about how, um, uh, 1012 00:43:08,105 --> 00:43:11,165 how biochar has got all these like, you know, ridges 1013 00:43:11,305 --> 00:43:12,885 and places to live and, 1014 00:43:13,025 --> 00:43:15,885 and they've got these, um, these, these environments 1015 00:43:15,885 --> 00:43:19,245 that the, the microbes can set up housing and, and, 1016 00:43:19,265 --> 00:43:21,005 and where their nutrition grows and, 1017 00:43:21,105 --> 00:43:22,645 and how it just kind of makes like 1018 00:43:22,665 --> 00:43:24,045 for this perfect neighborhood. 1019 00:43:24,705 --> 00:43:28,965 And, and I always like to think about my pots that way too, 1020 00:43:29,145 --> 00:43:31,125 or, or, you know, the soil that, 1021 00:43:31,125 --> 00:43:34,365 that I wanna make a good neighborhood for my plants 1022 00:43:34,425 --> 00:43:35,565 to grow a bit as well. 1023 00:43:35,825 --> 00:43:37,405 So, so, so you, you 1024 00:43:37,405 --> 00:43:40,645 and I clearly enjoy anthropomorphizing microbes, 1025 00:43:40,645 --> 00:43:42,005 which, which I can support. 1026 00:43:42,665 --> 00:43:44,045 Um, let's go ahead 1027 00:43:44,065 --> 00:43:47,165 and start just kind of generally with this idea of, 1028 00:43:47,425 --> 00:43:50,725 of creating neighborhoods that have got the kinds 1029 00:43:50,725 --> 00:43:54,205 of attributes in the soil that, um, 1030 00:43:54,315 --> 00:43:56,285 that these neighborhoods can build on. 1031 00:43:56,755 --> 00:43:59,245 What is the nature of soil structure 1032 00:43:59,515 --> 00:44:02,005 that makes good rhizosphere? 1033 00:44:03,685 --> 00:44:06,205 - I think a good balance of, um, sand, silt 1034 00:44:06,205 --> 00:44:08,605 and clay obviously is, is a great way to, you know, 1035 00:44:08,605 --> 00:44:10,485 that definition of soil makes a good structure 1036 00:44:10,545 --> 00:44:11,845 for the microbes to colonize. 1037 00:44:11,865 --> 00:44:13,285 But I think a really important thing 1038 00:44:13,285 --> 00:44:16,125 that is often overlooked, uh, would be things that, uh, 1039 00:44:16,125 --> 00:44:20,205 we call max MAC, uh, microbially forms of accessible carbon 1040 00:44:20,345 --> 00:44:21,885 or microbe accessible carbon. 1041 00:44:22,385 --> 00:44:23,605 Um, your plants are, you know, 1042 00:44:23,605 --> 00:44:25,685 constantly depositing these things into the soil 1043 00:44:25,685 --> 00:44:28,365 through root ex exits, uh, as well as, you know, 1044 00:44:28,385 --> 00:44:29,845 any organic matter, um, 1045 00:44:30,145 --> 00:44:32,605 and different types of breakdown processes in soil 1046 00:44:32,705 --> 00:44:36,045 or other systems, um, can provide these forms of max, uh, 1047 00:44:36,045 --> 00:44:37,325 carbon sources, food sources 1048 00:44:37,425 --> 00:44:39,165 for the microbes to be in there. 1049 00:44:39,545 --> 00:44:42,405 Um, you know, biochar being carbon based is a really 1050 00:44:42,415 --> 00:44:43,445 great form of this. 1051 00:44:43,455 --> 00:44:44,805 Other things like fulls 1052 00:44:44,805 --> 00:44:48,085 and, um, um, different like, you know, 1053 00:44:48,085 --> 00:44:50,525 cellulose breakdown products are another great way to kind 1054 00:44:50,525 --> 00:44:52,205 of feed microbes in the soil. 1055 00:44:54,665 --> 00:44:58,605 - So, um, so I is the primary, uh, 1056 00:44:58,965 --> 00:45:01,965 i i is the primary, I'll say the first, not the only, 1057 00:45:01,985 --> 00:45:03,565 but is the primary attribute 1058 00:45:03,565 --> 00:45:05,965 of creating a good neighborhood, making sure 1059 00:45:06,235 --> 00:45:07,925 that there's lots of these max rounds. 1060 00:45:08,165 --> 00:45:11,005 So there's there always high quality carbon for them to eat 1061 00:45:11,635 --> 00:45:13,085 that, like at the top of the list. 1062 00:45:13,565 --> 00:45:15,365 - I would, I would put that at the top of the list just 1063 00:45:15,365 --> 00:45:18,645 because, uh, if you apply something like a biological to a, 1064 00:45:18,725 --> 00:45:20,005 a near sterile system, I'll, 1065 00:45:20,005 --> 00:45:22,045 I'll never call it hydroponic system sterile, um, 1066 00:45:22,285 --> 00:45:23,805 just because there's microbes everywhere. 1067 00:45:23,875 --> 00:45:25,285 Microbial ubiquity. Mm-Hmm. . 1068 00:45:25,425 --> 00:45:28,885 Um, but we do have, you know, the, the notion of, uh, a lot 1069 00:45:28,885 --> 00:45:31,605 of that stuff can be wasted if there's not food sources to, 1070 00:45:31,785 --> 00:45:33,325 to feed the microbes. 1071 00:45:33,325 --> 00:45:35,005 You know, you hear about with your gut 1072 00:45:35,005 --> 00:45:36,965 and gut health prebiotics with probiotics. 1073 00:45:37,185 --> 00:45:39,245 Um, that's, you know, feeding also the things 1074 00:45:39,245 --> 00:45:41,125 that might be resident to your system, whether 1075 00:45:41,125 --> 00:45:42,805 or not they're applied, uh, from a bottle 1076 00:45:42,905 --> 00:45:46,045 or from, uh, indigenous microorganism hunting. Mm-hmm, 1077 00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:47,085 - . 1078 00:45:47,085 --> 00:45:51,365 So, so what are, um, sources of these macs 1079 00:45:51,365 --> 00:45:53,085 that we can wildcraft and, 1080 00:45:53,145 --> 00:45:55,085 and how do we, how do we process them into it? 1081 00:45:55,125 --> 00:45:58,605 I mean, you know, the biochar, um, you know, we can use 1082 00:45:58,605 --> 00:46:01,565 as a soil amendment and some people like to crush it up and, 1083 00:46:01,825 --> 00:46:05,285 and, um, and, you know, top dress it into their water 1084 00:46:05,425 --> 00:46:07,005 so it slowly works their way in. 1085 00:46:07,065 --> 00:46:09,485 But give us, give us some more idea of how 1086 00:46:09,485 --> 00:46:10,805 to think about these Macs and, 1087 00:46:10,805 --> 00:46:14,565 and where we can bio prospect them into our cultivation. 1088 00:46:15,405 --> 00:46:17,725 - Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I'm going 1089 00:46:17,725 --> 00:46:19,365 to do a callback to biostimulants, right? 1090 00:46:19,365 --> 00:46:22,725 There's lots of Maxs, uh, in different tiers of bios, 1091 00:46:22,725 --> 00:46:25,405 stimulant products or, or, uh, things that you can get 1092 00:46:25,425 --> 00:46:27,405 or procure naturally with wildcrafting. 1093 00:46:27,865 --> 00:46:30,725 Um, and essentially, you know, the, uh, 1094 00:46:31,385 --> 00:46:33,125 the plant is also feeding your microbes. 1095 00:46:33,345 --> 00:46:35,365 So as long as your plants are health, uh, 1096 00:46:35,565 --> 00:46:36,605 maintained optimal health and nutrition, 1097 00:46:36,605 --> 00:46:38,045 there is gonna be some source of, 1098 00:46:38,105 --> 00:46:41,205 of max in the system from the root exodus too. 1099 00:46:41,625 --> 00:46:42,885 Um, but you will, you know, 1100 00:46:42,885 --> 00:46:44,965 plants also can re-uptake root ex exits. 1101 00:46:44,965 --> 00:46:46,085 Uh, so there is a degree 1102 00:46:46,085 --> 00:46:48,245 of plant microbe competition for these food sources. 1103 00:46:48,705 --> 00:46:50,805 Um, but going back to that kind of old, uh, wisdom 1104 00:46:51,405 --> 00:46:54,645 cultivation, uh, you know, thinking, um, people 1105 00:46:54,645 --> 00:46:56,765 that I hear a lot of people have really strong opinions 1106 00:46:56,765 --> 00:46:58,725 about applying molasses, uh, as a, 1107 00:46:58,725 --> 00:47:00,845 as a input and during flour. 1108 00:47:01,265 --> 00:47:03,325 Um, and I've always kind of understood that 1109 00:47:03,325 --> 00:47:05,525 as we're feeding the soil microbes rather than we're, 1110 00:47:05,545 --> 00:47:06,925 you know, giving sugar to help 1111 00:47:07,925 --> 00:47:09,765 increase flour synthesis or something like that. 1112 00:47:10,595 --> 00:47:12,605 - Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've talked on this show many times 1113 00:47:12,825 --> 00:47:16,045 how, you know, the adding of molasses into the pot. 1114 00:47:16,305 --> 00:47:19,205 Um, what you're doing is throwing your, your, um, 1115 00:47:19,915 --> 00:47:21,405 your pot out of balance. 1116 00:47:21,475 --> 00:47:23,885 What you wanna do is, if you're gonna use the molasses, 1117 00:47:23,945 --> 00:47:26,565 is feed the, feed the microbes in your, 1118 00:47:26,825 --> 00:47:28,805 in your aerated compost brewer, 1119 00:47:29,225 --> 00:47:32,645 let them eat the molasses there and incubate them. 1120 00:47:32,645 --> 00:47:33,885 So now you have a whole bunch of them. 1121 00:47:34,145 --> 00:47:38,925 And then put that compost tea that's not hot anymore into 1122 00:47:39,555 --> 00:47:41,325 your, your rhizosphere. 1123 00:47:41,385 --> 00:47:42,765 Is, is that the, are those 1124 00:47:42,765 --> 00:47:44,685 the steps that you're referring to? Yeah, 1125 00:47:44,795 --> 00:47:45,795 - Yeah. 1126 00:47:45,795 --> 00:47:47,965 I think that that is probably the best practice to do it. 1127 00:47:47,985 --> 00:47:50,045 Um, for those who, you know, aren't able to kind 1128 00:47:50,045 --> 00:47:52,645 of have the lead time to brew cup a compost tea and, 1129 00:47:52,645 --> 00:47:54,805 and feed it sugar and whatnot, I think, um, 1130 00:47:54,805 --> 00:47:56,005 just a very diluted form, 1131 00:47:56,005 --> 00:47:58,645 an irrigation solution can also kind of benefit those, 1132 00:47:58,645 --> 00:48:00,205 those microbes that might be in your roots. 1133 00:48:00,295 --> 00:48:02,645 - Right on. I wanna push you a little bit on specificity 1134 00:48:02,645 --> 00:48:05,005 because you said that there are, um, you know, 1135 00:48:05,115 --> 00:48:07,885 various plants that we can wildcraft 1136 00:48:08,375 --> 00:48:10,885 where we can get the max from. 1137 00:48:11,465 --> 00:48:14,205 Um, just for examples to get us started, 1138 00:48:14,205 --> 00:48:16,085 because we, we all know that we can like, you know, 1139 00:48:16,085 --> 00:48:18,485 Google it or ask GPT or something, 1140 00:48:18,705 --> 00:48:23,405 but from you, will you give us three mac rich plants 1141 00:48:23,405 --> 00:48:26,525 that we might be able to wildcraft just so you know, people 1142 00:48:26,545 --> 00:48:28,805 who just want to jump on it, know what, where to start? 1143 00:48:32,145 --> 00:48:34,465 - Y you know, I think, um, I'm always gonna go back 1144 00:48:34,465 --> 00:48:36,185 to compost and those breakdown processes. 1145 00:48:36,325 --> 00:48:39,065 Um, I, I would, when I say, you know, you ask 1146 00:48:39,065 --> 00:48:40,905 for specific plants, I don't know that I have any 1147 00:48:40,905 --> 00:48:42,025 of those off the top of my list, 1148 00:48:42,205 --> 00:48:44,385 but, um, I, I think, you know, carbon 1149 00:48:44,485 --> 00:48:48,545 and nitrogen sources, uh, essentially, um, can help 1150 00:48:49,545 --> 00:48:51,785 increase available max, uh, whether, whether 1151 00:48:51,805 --> 00:48:53,905 or not they are being added to your system 1152 00:48:53,905 --> 00:48:55,905 or the nutrients, you know, the compost pile 1153 00:48:55,925 --> 00:48:57,025 or something like that provided. 1154 00:48:57,285 --> 00:48:59,585 Um, but in terms of kind of going out and, 1155 00:48:59,605 --> 00:49:01,105 and foraging up a bunch of plants 1156 00:49:01,125 --> 00:49:02,465 and making a tea out of that, I, 1157 00:49:02,465 --> 00:49:03,585 uh, I would have to do some more 1158 00:49:03,705 --> 00:49:04,705 - Research. 1159 00:49:04,705 --> 00:49:06,505 Right on, you know, your, your hesitation kind 1160 00:49:06,505 --> 00:49:10,585 of like suddenly re-con contextualized everything for me is, 1161 00:49:10,645 --> 00:49:13,865 is it potentially the answer to the question I asked that, 1162 00:49:14,325 --> 00:49:16,425 um, these Macs are in everything 1163 00:49:16,425 --> 00:49:18,505 because carbon is a building block. 1164 00:49:18,505 --> 00:49:22,505 So, so long as I'm starting with a, a local healthy 1165 00:49:23,145 --> 00:49:25,705 thriving plant, it's gonna have max in it. 1166 00:49:26,045 --> 00:49:29,185 So just use whatever I have a lot of around me 1167 00:49:29,185 --> 00:49:31,945 and use a variety of plants that are around me. 1168 00:49:32,365 --> 00:49:34,985 And then if I wanna up it, we'll then go ahead 1169 00:49:34,985 --> 00:49:36,985 and do some online research 1170 00:49:37,525 --> 00:49:42,145 and find out the types of plants that are more rich in max. 1171 00:49:42,205 --> 00:49:44,225 But it, it, I'm starting to get the idea, 1172 00:49:44,225 --> 00:49:46,025 since we keep on coming back to compost, 1173 00:49:46,175 --> 00:49:48,385 that the max are everywhere and, 1174 00:49:48,725 --> 00:49:50,425 and so just use whatever you have. 1175 00:49:51,295 --> 00:49:52,825 - Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. Thank you. 1176 00:49:52,925 --> 00:49:55,025 Um, and another kind of way to put it, you know, 1177 00:49:55,405 --> 00:49:57,985 or another, I guess using whatever you have should, 1178 00:49:57,985 --> 00:50:00,185 should be used with caution a little bit as, as a lot 1179 00:50:00,185 --> 00:50:02,665 of people know, you know, if you look for, uh, broken down, 1180 00:50:02,715 --> 00:50:05,025 dried out plant material, um, you wanna make sure 1181 00:50:05,025 --> 00:50:06,585 that didn't come from anything diseased. 1182 00:50:06,685 --> 00:50:08,265 Uh, obviously, you know, you'd want that 1183 00:50:08,265 --> 00:50:10,585 to be fully broken down and in a composting system 1184 00:50:10,645 --> 00:50:13,745 or a, a heat breakdown type of format, uh, 1185 00:50:13,745 --> 00:50:16,025 before you add something that might be, you know, 1186 00:50:16,145 --> 00:50:18,225 degraded a, you know, a leaf loss due 1187 00:50:18,225 --> 00:50:20,705 to xanthomonas bacteria in the leaf or something like that. 1188 00:50:20,705 --> 00:50:22,985 Right. We don't wanna reintroduce that to our system, 1189 00:50:23,205 --> 00:50:24,545 but, um, you know, 1190 00:50:24,715 --> 00:50:26,665 plant health is very important too when you're, 1191 00:50:26,665 --> 00:50:27,885 when you're kind of wildcrafting 1192 00:50:28,255 --> 00:50:28,805 - Right. On 1193 00:50:29,145 --> 00:50:30,145 - All that to say. 1194 00:50:30,145 --> 00:50:32,845 - Alright, so, so when we're talking about the care tending 1195 00:50:32,845 --> 00:50:35,165 of microbes, obviously we want to include a lot 1196 00:50:35,165 --> 00:50:39,845 of these Macs so that there, there's a, a varied buffet all 1197 00:50:39,845 --> 00:50:43,725 through the rhizosphere, um, for, for, um, uh, 1198 00:50:43,825 --> 00:50:47,725 for all the varieties of, of, of residents to eat. 1199 00:50:48,265 --> 00:50:51,805 So, so let's go, um, so long as you think we've covered 1200 00:50:51,805 --> 00:50:54,125 that well enough, let's go beyond the nutrition 1201 00:50:54,265 --> 00:50:56,045 for the microbes eating the carbon, 1202 00:50:56,785 --> 00:51:00,725 and let's talk about some of the other, um, attributes 1203 00:51:00,725 --> 00:51:04,965 of soil structure that might also be, um, um, 1204 00:51:05,175 --> 00:51:08,445 beneficial to, to the rhizosphere. 1205 00:51:08,665 --> 00:51:12,845 And, and again, I might be over anthropomorphizing here, 1206 00:51:13,385 --> 00:51:16,685 but in my notes I put like shelter reproduction space, 1207 00:51:16,985 --> 00:51:21,005 you know, you know, um, uh, non-carbon nutrition, like, 1208 00:51:21,395 --> 00:51:22,885 like the idea 1209 00:51:22,945 --> 00:51:27,405 of shelter may not actually exist in soil in the 1210 00:51:27,405 --> 00:51:31,845 rhizosphere, but, but it seems like it should exist there 1211 00:51:32,115 --> 00:51:34,165 because you have got more, 1212 00:51:34,435 --> 00:51:36,845 more predator residents in the biosphere 1213 00:51:36,985 --> 00:51:39,285 and more passive residents in the biosphere. 1214 00:51:39,745 --> 00:51:43,725 And, and, you know, normally life forms need 1215 00:51:43,725 --> 00:51:45,725 to take shelter when they reproduce. 1216 00:51:46,105 --> 00:51:48,365 And so, you know, I I'm very willing 1217 00:51:48,365 --> 00:51:50,165 to be very wrong on this, right? 1218 00:51:50,585 --> 00:51:53,445 But, but is it, tell us a little bit about 1219 00:51:53,905 --> 00:51:55,485 how the community interacts 1220 00:51:55,825 --> 00:51:58,005 and if there are attributes of our soil 1221 00:51:58,465 --> 00:52:01,605 and amendments that, that potentially provide more 1222 00:52:01,605 --> 00:52:03,485 of this shelter and reproduction space 1223 00:52:03,785 --> 00:52:05,325 and non-carbon nutrition. 1224 00:52:06,165 --> 00:52:08,845 - Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, uh, the best place 1225 00:52:08,845 --> 00:52:10,965 for plants to over winter, um, in terms 1226 00:52:10,965 --> 00:52:12,645 of seasonal changes would be in the roots 1227 00:52:12,665 --> 00:52:14,725 and in the, in the kind of skeletonized plant bodies 1228 00:52:14,725 --> 00:52:16,165 that are no longer actively growing. 1229 00:52:16,465 --> 00:52:19,045 Um, that's a great place for microbes to over winter 1230 00:52:19,065 --> 00:52:21,125 and be ready to, uh, be introduced 1231 00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:22,885 to your plants when you're planting them in the springtime. 1232 00:52:22,885 --> 00:52:25,365 And then I just do wanna circle back a little bit on the max 1233 00:52:25,365 --> 00:52:26,485 stuff and say one more thing. 1234 00:52:26,595 --> 00:52:29,325 Sure. Um, I wanna go back to, uh, I wanna quote Dr. 1235 00:52:29,325 --> 00:52:30,925 Elaine Ham from the soil food web 1236 00:52:31,185 --> 00:52:34,085 and say, you know, what do microbes love, uh, sugars, right? 1237 00:52:34,265 --> 00:52:35,525 And that's why the cakes 1238 00:52:35,525 --> 00:52:38,285 and cookies that are the root exodus are really kind of, 1239 00:52:38,385 --> 00:52:40,845 you know, being deposited by the plants in theory to, 1240 00:52:40,845 --> 00:52:43,565 to colonize or recruit microbes to the, to the root zone. 1241 00:52:43,945 --> 00:52:46,405 Um, the other thing that I wanted to mention was going back 1242 00:52:46,405 --> 00:52:49,405 to that, that big open table analogy with empty seats. 1243 00:52:49,905 --> 00:52:53,205 Um, uh, another kind of enhancement of this theory is, 1244 00:52:53,205 --> 00:52:57,325 is like, uh, if that table's being catered and, 1245 00:52:57,545 --> 00:53:00,925 and there is only, you know, slabs of meat being put on 1246 00:53:00,925 --> 00:53:02,805 that table, only, only, uh, you know, 1247 00:53:02,955 --> 00:53:05,045 carnivore type people are gonna be sitting down there 1248 00:53:05,065 --> 00:53:06,245 to consume that stuff, right? 1249 00:53:06,505 --> 00:53:09,885 So we also wanna provide a lot of diverse inputs of, of max, 1250 00:53:09,885 --> 00:53:13,285 whether that is, uh, different types of compost tea 1251 00:53:13,425 --> 00:53:15,605 or sugar sugars like molasses 1252 00:53:15,705 --> 00:53:17,805 or, you know, just com, uh, broken down leaves 1253 00:53:17,865 --> 00:53:19,365 and pine straw and stuff like that. 1254 00:53:19,785 --> 00:53:22,085 Um, but the important thing is by providing a lot 1255 00:53:22,085 --> 00:53:24,205 of different forms of microbial accessible carbon, 1256 00:53:24,655 --> 00:53:26,405 we're feeding, uh, lots 1257 00:53:26,405 --> 00:53:28,965 of different functional microbes in the soil, right? 1258 00:53:29,065 --> 00:53:32,285 So if, if there's, um, if that table's being catered 1259 00:53:32,285 --> 00:53:33,525 with vegetables, meat, 1260 00:53:33,585 --> 00:53:35,925 and a little bit of both, we're gonna have omnivores, 1261 00:53:36,085 --> 00:53:37,205 vegetarians, vegans, and, 1262 00:53:37,205 --> 00:53:38,845 and carnivores all sitting at that table. 1263 00:53:39,225 --> 00:53:42,005 Uh, the same applies in my, in my head at least 1264 00:53:42,105 --> 00:53:43,365 to the plant roots, right? 1265 00:53:43,505 --> 00:53:46,485 So if the, the tomato root is only exiting the, 1266 00:53:46,545 --> 00:53:48,765 the same compounds, tomato plants exude, 1267 00:53:48,955 --> 00:53:50,605 then only a few types of microbes 1268 00:53:50,605 --> 00:53:51,965 or functional microbes are gonna be able 1269 00:53:51,965 --> 00:53:53,085 to use those food sources. 1270 00:53:53,585 --> 00:53:56,605 Um, so the grower can kind of apply different forms 1271 00:53:56,605 --> 00:53:58,765 of max molasses, compost, stuff like that, 1272 00:53:59,025 --> 00:54:02,325 or even companion planting, um, to provide a lot 1273 00:54:02,325 --> 00:54:04,165 of different food sources because, uh, 1274 00:54:04,385 --> 00:54:08,285 the general thinking in microbiome sciences health is very 1275 00:54:08,355 --> 00:54:11,485 closely associated with high diversity in a microbiome. 1276 00:54:12,595 --> 00:54:14,365 - Alright, so with my next question, 1277 00:54:14,865 --> 00:54:16,405 I'm gonna set up a little, um, 1278 00:54:16,965 --> 00:54:19,285 a little example first about EM one, 1279 00:54:19,705 --> 00:54:22,485 and, you know, a lot of folks like to use em one 1280 00:54:22,945 --> 00:54:26,125 and, um, the idea is like, okay, you can buy em one, 1281 00:54:26,125 --> 00:54:27,965 which is a, a blend of microbes 1282 00:54:27,965 --> 00:54:28,965 and you can add it to your plants 1283 00:54:28,985 --> 00:54:30,045 and your plants will love it. 1284 00:54:30,705 --> 00:54:34,005 And if you want to expand the bottle so your, your, 1285 00:54:34,235 --> 00:54:36,525 your bottle lasts longer, there's, uh, 1286 00:54:36,525 --> 00:54:41,125 usually instructions on the back of how you can do a, um, a, 1287 00:54:41,325 --> 00:54:44,245 a simple aerated tea so that you can 1288 00:54:45,185 --> 00:54:46,525 expand what's in your bottle. 1289 00:54:47,185 --> 00:54:50,405 But, but eventually, if you just keep on brewing it 1290 00:54:50,405 --> 00:54:54,405 and brewing it, um, the, the microbes that are differently 1291 00:54:54,985 --> 00:54:57,445 com aggressive and competitive, the balance 1292 00:54:57,595 --> 00:55:01,685 that is in the actual em one balance that they recommend, 1293 00:55:01,935 --> 00:55:03,485 it'll eventually get out of balance. 1294 00:55:03,545 --> 00:55:05,565 And so you have to go and, you know, get a new bottle 1295 00:55:05,565 --> 00:55:06,925 of em one and, and start over 1296 00:55:06,955 --> 00:55:09,005 with the the actual balanced product. 1297 00:55:09,785 --> 00:55:14,645 Um, so, so using that as the example, um, if we are 1298 00:55:15,165 --> 00:55:19,885 grabbing, uh, lots of different plants that are local 1299 00:55:19,985 --> 00:55:21,645 to our area that are thriving 1300 00:55:22,345 --> 00:55:25,805 and we are, um, either degrading them 1301 00:55:25,865 --> 00:55:29,005 or extracting them into some sort of extract 1302 00:55:29,105 --> 00:55:32,285 or aerated compost tea, is there any, um, 1303 00:55:32,285 --> 00:55:36,165 awareness we should have about the balance 1304 00:55:36,745 --> 00:55:38,645 of those microbes 1305 00:55:38,645 --> 00:55:41,525 and nutrition that we're actually putting into the pot? 1306 00:55:42,145 --> 00:55:45,925 If, if, if, if we do want to have our, um, 1307 00:55:46,955 --> 00:55:49,005 rhizosphere life to be in balance 1308 00:55:49,825 --> 00:55:52,285 and we influence that balance by 1309 00:55:52,635 --> 00:55:57,285 what we're adding from our compost pile as a tea, do we need 1310 00:55:57,285 --> 00:55:59,725 to be worried about throwing off the balance 1311 00:56:00,105 --> 00:56:03,405 of the residents of the, of the rhizosphere 1312 00:56:03,755 --> 00:56:08,325 because we are feeding out of balanced, uh, teas? 1313 00:56:09,385 --> 00:56:11,805 - Uh, yeah, actually that is, that is a major concern. 1314 00:56:12,145 --> 00:56:13,885 And, um, it's cool that, that a product like 1315 00:56:13,885 --> 00:56:16,365 that has those types of instructions for kind of increase, 1316 00:56:16,385 --> 00:56:17,445 you know, bang for your buck. 1317 00:56:17,865 --> 00:56:20,245 Um, but yes, I think, uh, my best advice, 1318 00:56:20,345 --> 00:56:21,525 and this is maybe my opinion, 1319 00:56:21,665 --> 00:56:23,445 but based on some science, um, 1320 00:56:23,495 --> 00:56:25,645 would be when you're making those types of products, try 1321 00:56:25,645 --> 00:56:28,325 to use them up, um, you know, do, do your research 1322 00:56:28,425 --> 00:56:31,045 and say you, you've found a lot of sources 1323 00:56:31,225 --> 00:56:33,805 to say 48 hours is the ideal incubation 1324 00:56:33,805 --> 00:56:37,125 or aeration time for a compost t try to use that up, uh, 1325 00:56:37,125 --> 00:56:39,405 pretty, pretty quickly, uh, after it's ready to go. 1326 00:56:39,585 --> 00:56:43,085 Um, and I think that is based on the thinking that, um, 1327 00:56:43,825 --> 00:56:46,805 all types of microbes, whether there's one thing in a bottle 1328 00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:48,805 or a thousand things from a sample 1329 00:56:48,825 --> 00:56:52,245 of compost have different, uh, growth and metabolism rates. 1330 00:56:52,785 --> 00:56:54,925 So, um, when things are grown together, uh, 1331 00:56:54,925 --> 00:56:56,085 the term is like co cultured. 1332 00:56:56,465 --> 00:56:59,245 Um, the faster growers are always gonna be able to have that 1333 00:56:59,905 --> 00:57:02,445 add advantage towards the other members of that, you know, 1334 00:57:02,685 --> 00:57:07,205 biome, um, because they're just, uh, genetically advantaged 1335 00:57:07,225 --> 00:57:10,085 to eat faster and divide faster and break down faster. 1336 00:57:10,095 --> 00:57:12,245 Right. So you can see things like, um, 1337 00:57:12,265 --> 00:57:14,725 if you let a compost t sit for two weeks, uh, 1338 00:57:14,725 --> 00:57:17,685 maybe if it's aerated, um, as opposed to one week, I bet 1339 00:57:17,685 --> 00:57:19,805 that that microbiome completely shifts Yeah. 1340 00:57:19,805 --> 00:57:20,885 Just based on the ability 1341 00:57:20,905 --> 00:57:22,765 for those faster growers to become dominant. 1342 00:57:23,185 --> 00:57:25,405 And I think, you know, the diversity was probably the 1343 00:57:25,405 --> 00:57:28,325 highest within the first 72 hours of brewing a compost tea. 1344 00:57:28,325 --> 00:57:31,685 And that starts to probably taper off just based on the way 1345 00:57:31,685 --> 00:57:34,285 microbial microbe ecology kind of works in that system. 1346 00:57:34,745 --> 00:57:36,565 Um, there's only so much food around, right? 1347 00:57:37,065 --> 00:57:40,845 And, uh, if the fastest eaters are, you know, kind 1348 00:57:40,845 --> 00:57:42,485 of throwing their elbows at the other ones and 1349 00:57:42,545 --> 00:57:44,325 and eating it faster, they're gonna become dominant. 1350 00:57:44,465 --> 00:57:46,245 And maybe those aren't the plant growth promoting 1351 00:57:46,245 --> 00:57:47,325 microbes that you're in search for. 1352 00:57:47,325 --> 00:57:48,485 Maybe they're just really good at eating 1353 00:57:48,485 --> 00:57:49,525 those Macs. Mm-Hmm. , 1354 00:57:50,285 --> 00:57:52,325 - I like that idea that, that as you're, 1355 00:57:52,325 --> 00:57:56,085 as you're brewing it for 36 to 48 hours and you're, 1356 00:57:56,085 --> 00:57:58,485 and you're pulling it out of the bucket, right? 1357 00:57:58,485 --> 00:58:02,525 Then you have got so many aerated microbes 1358 00:58:02,785 --> 00:58:05,205 and they've all just been getting all the aeration 1359 00:58:05,425 --> 00:58:07,645 and nutrition that they could possibly want, 1360 00:58:07,935 --> 00:58:11,565 which just means like everybody is fed and thriving 1361 00:58:11,565 --> 00:58:12,845 and at the starting line, 1362 00:58:13,425 --> 00:58:15,685 and that's when we want to give it to our plants. 1363 00:58:16,145 --> 00:58:19,005 But the longer we get away from that starting line 1364 00:58:19,065 --> 00:58:22,525 and let that compost tea sit for one day, two day, 1365 00:58:22,755 --> 00:58:25,325 they're all, they're all already racing and competing 1366 00:58:25,325 --> 00:58:27,245 and beating each other up and eating each other. 1367 00:58:27,545 --> 00:58:29,405 And so by day, you know, three 1368 00:58:29,425 --> 00:58:33,205 or four, you, you're fully at survival of the fittest at 1369 00:58:33,205 --> 00:58:36,685 that point, and you're not providing a nice, even 1370 00:58:37,285 --> 00:58:40,845 balanced array of nutrition and microbiology. 1371 00:58:41,305 --> 00:58:44,365 You're actually providing them something imbalanced 1372 00:58:44,385 --> 00:58:48,045 that's going to have some sort of effect on your, um, 1373 00:58:48,385 --> 00:58:50,405 on your soil environment. Does that sound about right? 1374 00:58:51,285 --> 00:58:53,245 - Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and the way to say 1375 00:58:53,245 --> 00:58:55,365 that is in microbiome sciences we use a 1376 00:58:55,365 --> 00:58:56,405 term called alpha diversity. 1377 00:58:56,585 --> 00:58:58,165 Um, so if I have a basket of fruit 1378 00:58:58,185 --> 00:58:59,685 and there's 10 pieces of fruit in there 1379 00:58:59,705 --> 00:59:00,845 and nine of them are apples 1380 00:59:00,845 --> 00:59:02,325 and one of them's an orange, I have 1381 00:59:02,325 --> 00:59:03,365 really low alpha diversity. 1382 00:59:03,745 --> 00:59:05,445 But if I have 10 pieces of fruit in a basket 1383 00:59:05,545 --> 00:59:07,485 and one's an apple, one's a grape, one's a banana, 1384 00:59:07,485 --> 00:59:09,205 blueberry, everything is a different thing. 1385 00:59:09,625 --> 00:59:11,405 Um, the parts of a hole are all different. 1386 00:59:11,405 --> 00:59:12,885 That is really high alpha diversity. 1387 00:59:13,025 --> 00:59:15,885 So the longer something like a compost tea might sit, um, 1388 00:59:16,075 --> 00:59:19,205 it's likely that you'd be lowering your alpha diversity 1389 00:59:19,205 --> 00:59:20,325 where those fast growers 1390 00:59:20,325 --> 00:59:22,845 or good eaters are gonna become dominant. Um, 1391 00:59:23,215 --> 00:59:24,215 - Right on. 1392 00:59:24,215 --> 00:59:25,245 That's, that is super interesting. 1393 00:59:25,305 --> 00:59:27,245 And because I wanna look this up after the show. 1394 00:59:27,305 --> 00:59:29,925 Are you saying alpha A-L-P-H-A? 1395 00:59:30,395 --> 00:59:31,685 - That is correct, yes. - Alright, cool. 1396 00:59:31,685 --> 00:59:33,765 That's a very interesting idea. That is new to me 1397 00:59:33,825 --> 00:59:35,485 - And on compost teas as well. 1398 00:59:35,625 --> 00:59:38,445 Um, I, I collaborated on something when I was in school, uh, 1399 00:59:38,445 --> 00:59:42,165 where a colleague was making verma compost tea from worm 1400 00:59:42,165 --> 00:59:43,565 castings and finished compost. 1401 00:59:44,065 --> 00:59:47,325 Um, and this person was able to, uh, grow it up. 1402 00:59:47,365 --> 00:59:49,085 I think they did a 48 hour aeration. 1403 00:59:49,465 --> 00:59:50,885 Um, and then they boiled half of it 1404 00:59:50,885 --> 00:59:53,365 and then they applied the other half untreated. 1405 00:59:53,545 --> 00:59:55,765 And they actually found that, I think it was a basil host 1406 00:59:55,765 --> 00:59:57,285 or a tomato host, um, 1407 00:59:57,335 --> 01:00:00,605 those plants benefited more from the boiled compost tea. 1408 01:00:00,665 --> 01:00:02,125 Um, so this is not me suggesting 1409 01:00:02,125 --> 01:00:04,005 that everybody should be boiling their compost tea, 1410 01:00:04,345 --> 01:00:07,405 but maybe on their aeration time they were able to, 1411 01:00:07,505 --> 01:00:10,005 you know, increase the populations of things 1412 01:00:10,005 --> 01:00:11,885 that might not directly benefit plants 1413 01:00:11,905 --> 01:00:14,445 and actually compete for plants for those beneficial parts 1414 01:00:14,515 --> 01:00:17,045 that get released when we make a compost tea. 1415 01:00:17,505 --> 01:00:19,885 Um, so it was kind of interesting to think about, you know, 1416 01:00:19,885 --> 01:00:22,885 boiling or trying to get the microbes out of a compost tea. 1417 01:00:22,985 --> 01:00:25,005 The ones that can't survive boiling, uh, 1418 01:00:25,365 --> 01:00:26,885 actually made the plants do better. 1419 01:00:27,065 --> 01:00:30,645 Um, presumably from a reduced, uh, amount 1420 01:00:30,645 --> 01:00:32,925 of microbe competition for the same things the plant wants 1421 01:00:32,925 --> 01:00:34,645 that kind of get released from the aeration 1422 01:00:34,885 --> 01:00:35,925 process in compost tea. 1423 01:00:36,345 --> 01:00:38,365 - Wow. Man. Boiling compost. 1424 01:00:38,385 --> 01:00:39,645 You just kind of blew my mind there. 1425 01:00:40,305 --> 01:00:42,165 Um, I'm gonna have to think a lot about that. 1426 01:00:42,305 --> 01:00:46,165 But, but what I think about it immediately is that if, if, 1427 01:00:46,265 --> 01:00:48,925 if we've talked constantly throughout this episode 1428 01:00:48,985 --> 01:00:53,805 so far about, um, the biodiversity of the teas 1429 01:00:54,065 --> 01:00:55,605 and, you know, of the carbons 1430 01:00:55,605 --> 01:00:58,285 and of the plant sources that we continually pour into our 1431 01:00:58,285 --> 01:01:02,165 plants, that if I'm gonna make aerated compost teas 1432 01:01:02,165 --> 01:01:06,725 and I'm also gonna do cold extracted, uh, teas, 1433 01:01:07,275 --> 01:01:11,525 like I don't see any reason why, uh, having a big pot 1434 01:01:11,525 --> 01:01:14,725 of boiled plants that I then let cool 1435 01:01:15,065 --> 01:01:16,645 and then apply to the plants. 1436 01:01:17,205 --> 01:01:20,285 'cause I'm gonna get a whole DA whole different, um, cast 1437 01:01:20,345 --> 01:01:21,885 of characters in that. 1438 01:01:21,905 --> 01:01:24,125 And all I'm doing is increasing my diversity 1439 01:01:24,585 --> 01:01:27,245 by using all three different types of teas. 1440 01:01:28,085 --> 01:01:29,325 - I would agree with that. Yeah, definitely. 1441 01:01:29,345 --> 01:01:32,045 You know, the, the, the non boiled compost tea in the study 1442 01:01:32,105 --> 01:01:35,365 I'm referring to is, is kind of a balance of both probiotic 1443 01:01:35,365 --> 01:01:39,045 or just bacterial members and prebiotics, whereas likely 1444 01:01:39,045 --> 01:01:40,365 after it was boiled, you know, 1445 01:01:40,365 --> 01:01:41,445 it wasn't measured chemically, 1446 01:01:41,445 --> 01:01:43,725 but that was probably just more, uh, I, 1447 01:01:43,745 --> 01:01:44,925 I'm gonna use the term prebiotic, 1448 01:01:44,925 --> 01:01:46,805 but just, uh, kind of those, the metabolites 1449 01:01:46,805 --> 01:01:49,965 that are released from the compost tea brewing process, um, 1450 01:01:49,975 --> 01:01:52,845 ready for the, the plant to slurp right up rather than kind 1451 01:01:52,845 --> 01:01:54,645 of have to share with the microbes. 1452 01:01:54,855 --> 01:01:56,965 - Right on. Alright, so, um, 1453 01:01:56,965 --> 01:01:59,245 before we move on to our next topic, 1454 01:01:59,685 --> 01:02:01,165 I wanna hit something one more time 1455 01:02:01,165 --> 01:02:05,485 because, um, you know, um, I've heard you kind of allude 1456 01:02:05,485 --> 01:02:06,965 to the fact that one of the good things 1457 01:02:06,965 --> 01:02:11,765 that biochar does in the soil structure is to, you know, 1458 01:02:11,905 --> 01:02:14,605 not only provide, um, you know, the carbon for food, 1459 01:02:14,665 --> 01:02:16,005 but also, um, 1460 01:02:16,155 --> 01:02:18,645 it's like a unique housing structure, if you will. 1461 01:02:18,885 --> 01:02:20,605 'cause 'cause it's got all these nooks and crevices. 1462 01:02:21,145 --> 01:02:23,605 Um, is, is there anything, and the answer may be no, 1463 01:02:23,605 --> 01:02:25,605 but I'm gonna try to squeeze you on this anyway, is, 1464 01:02:25,665 --> 01:02:28,885 is there anything else that we should consider adding 1465 01:02:29,425 --> 01:02:32,285 as an amendment to our soil 1466 01:02:32,595 --> 01:02:34,445 that is less about nutrition 1467 01:02:34,505 --> 01:02:37,525 and having it break down to provide, you know, foods, 1468 01:02:37,615 --> 01:02:40,925 which is what most of the stuff we do, um, is for, 1469 01:02:41,465 --> 01:02:45,165 but instead is something that we are gonna amend the soil 1470 01:02:45,555 --> 01:02:48,165 because it actually provides, um, 1471 01:02:49,565 --> 01:02:53,405 a physical mechanism that is good for the microbe life? 1472 01:02:54,635 --> 01:02:57,205 - Yeah. Uh, I for that, I think, you know, the, 1473 01:02:57,225 --> 01:02:59,685 the biochar are a really good approach to that. 1474 01:02:59,785 --> 01:03:02,165 And I think I'll always recommend if people aren't already 1475 01:03:02,165 --> 01:03:04,005 doing this to get a starting soil test 1476 01:03:04,005 --> 01:03:05,965 before you start applying your innoculants or, 1477 01:03:05,965 --> 01:03:07,605 or inputs to that as well. 1478 01:03:07,945 --> 01:03:09,365 Um, but I think in terms of kind 1479 01:03:09,365 --> 01:03:10,565 of like housing the microbes 1480 01:03:10,565 --> 01:03:14,325 or giving them like a, a nice place to live, um, you know, 1481 01:03:15,735 --> 01:03:18,125 again, I'm biased towards the soil systems as opposed 1482 01:03:18,125 --> 01:03:19,245 to like a hydroponic system, 1483 01:03:19,245 --> 01:03:22,245 but when we think about no-till, um, not only is 1484 01:03:22,245 --> 01:03:25,685 that really kind of maintaining, uh, soil, you know, carbon 1485 01:03:25,785 --> 01:03:27,565 that's stored from those plants, um, 1486 01:03:27,565 --> 01:03:29,405 but that's also keeping those, those houses 1487 01:03:29,505 --> 01:03:33,205 for the microbes dormant in the plant roots ready to be, uh, 1488 01:03:33,545 --> 01:03:35,765 you know, introduced to the fresh roots that would be kind 1489 01:03:35,765 --> 01:03:37,325 of germinating in the same soils. 1490 01:03:37,345 --> 01:03:39,885 So, like my, me personally, um, I have one 1491 01:03:39,885 --> 01:03:41,245 of my experimental, you know, 1492 01:03:41,445 --> 01:03:43,325 garden beds in my backyard that I, 1493 01:03:43,325 --> 01:03:45,045 I've never tilled it for and I'll plant seeds 1494 01:03:45,045 --> 01:03:46,365 or directly transplant things there. 1495 01:03:46,385 --> 01:03:49,005 And it seems to be, um, you know, speculative 1496 01:03:49,315 --> 01:03:51,605 that those plants get a little bit of a boost, uh, 1497 01:03:51,605 --> 01:03:53,845 because the, you know, i, 1498 01:03:53,925 --> 01:03:55,965 I do apply heavy compost and things like that. 1499 01:03:55,965 --> 01:03:57,605 There's a lot of factors we're not considering. 1500 01:03:57,605 --> 01:03:59,045 But I think a big thing is, you know, 1501 01:03:59,045 --> 01:04:00,965 those microbes have overwintering structures 1502 01:04:00,965 --> 01:04:02,805 and they were evolved with the plant to survive 1503 01:04:02,805 --> 01:04:04,965 through these, these, uh, you know, 1504 01:04:05,115 --> 01:04:06,765 cold temperatures and hot temperatures. 1505 01:04:07,785 --> 01:04:09,725 Um, so yeah, I think, uh, 1506 01:04:10,065 --> 01:04:12,805 people should maybe experiment more with no-till 1507 01:04:12,905 --> 01:04:14,325 or, you know, companion planting 1508 01:04:14,345 --> 01:04:15,365 and things along those lines. 1509 01:04:15,715 --> 01:04:17,005 - Yeah, that certainly makes sense. 1510 01:04:17,105 --> 01:04:18,445 Uh, regarding our experience 1511 01:04:18,445 --> 01:04:21,685 with no-till every year the soil just gets more mature 1512 01:04:21,705 --> 01:04:23,165 and it lasts better through the winter 1513 01:04:23,385 --> 01:04:25,485 and the, the, the, the following years plants 1514 01:04:25,505 --> 01:04:28,005 or thriving, it's always hard as that first year 1515 01:04:28,515 --> 01:04:30,485 when people are using like, you know, 1516 01:04:30,565 --> 01:04:33,685 immature bagged soil without a lot of mycelium 1517 01:04:33,985 --> 01:04:36,925 and, you know, they get kind of mediocre plants. 1518 01:04:37,385 --> 01:04:38,445 Um, and then, 1519 01:04:38,505 --> 01:04:41,805 and then the longer they go, no-till the more, you know, 1520 01:04:41,935 --> 01:04:43,005 beefy the plants get. 1521 01:04:44,005 --> 01:04:46,815 - Yeah, yeah. It's like a, a a bettering, you know, 1522 01:04:46,815 --> 01:04:48,015 I think there's probably a limit 1523 01:04:48,015 --> 01:04:49,815 to it year three, year four or something like that. 1524 01:04:49,815 --> 01:04:51,135 Mm-Hmm. Everybody's system's different, 1525 01:04:51,235 --> 01:04:53,295 but yeah, the more, the more organic material 1526 01:04:53,355 --> 01:04:54,935 and different types of plant materials 1527 01:04:54,935 --> 01:04:56,735 and, you know, their root exits, stuff like 1528 01:04:56,735 --> 01:04:58,255 that, you can get in that system. 1529 01:04:58,275 --> 01:05:00,615 You're adding that diversity, which is, you know, 1530 01:05:00,615 --> 01:05:02,895 really correlated with plant and microbe health 1531 01:05:03,535 --> 01:05:06,975 - Rotating in amending, you know, no-till soil every, 1532 01:05:07,155 --> 01:05:08,495 you know, let's say four years. 1533 01:05:09,155 --> 01:05:12,935 Um, you know, it, that is such a massive improvement. 1534 01:05:13,205 --> 01:05:15,575 Then the idea of, you know, kind of old school 1535 01:05:15,575 --> 01:05:19,445 where every year you start with new fresh, clean soil 1536 01:05:19,475 --> 01:05:21,045 that doesn't have any pathogens in it. 1537 01:05:21,105 --> 01:05:24,125 And while yeah, we wanna avoid the pathogens, um, 1538 01:05:24,225 --> 01:05:27,765 but the, the best way to actually keep pathogens at bay is 1539 01:05:27,765 --> 01:05:30,245 to have a vigorous soil that's already aged. 1540 01:05:30,265 --> 01:05:32,485 And I always, I always feel bad for people 1541 01:05:32,585 --> 01:05:36,165 who are very much set on the new season, new soil tip. 1542 01:05:36,445 --> 01:05:39,565 'cause it, it just, it just makes things hard every year 1543 01:05:39,795 --> 01:05:43,365 instead of year three and four being like easy. 1544 01:05:44,075 --> 01:05:45,765 - Yeah. To me, the, the, that kind 1545 01:05:45,765 --> 01:05:47,565 of feels like a scorched earth type of approach. 1546 01:05:47,885 --> 01:05:49,965 . Um, and, and I like that you mentioned, you know, 1547 01:05:49,965 --> 01:05:51,885 the diversity, uh, in what you just said. 1548 01:05:52,665 --> 01:05:56,445 Um, you know, we've seen, uh, things like fusarium uh, 1549 01:05:56,445 --> 01:05:59,325 species highly present, you know, 10 to the sixth, 10 1550 01:05:59,325 --> 01:06:02,645 to the eighth cells per gram of soil, um, in a, 1551 01:06:02,645 --> 01:06:04,085 in a plant rhizosphere sample. 1552 01:06:04,265 --> 01:06:06,285 Um, but it's, you know, 1553 01:06:06,635 --> 01:06:09,285 very far along into flower maturation and there's no signs 1554 01:06:09,285 --> 01:06:11,605 or symptoms of the fusarium attacking the plant. 1555 01:06:11,865 --> 01:06:13,685 Um, so it's like this, 1556 01:06:13,745 --> 01:06:16,445 the fusarium is taking one seat at the seat, uh, the table 1557 01:06:16,445 --> 01:06:19,525 with a hundred seats and the other 99 seats are plant 1558 01:06:19,525 --> 01:06:21,485 benefiting things or soil benefiting things. 1559 01:06:21,505 --> 01:06:23,245 So, you know, pathogens can be present 1560 01:06:23,245 --> 01:06:24,445 without becoming virulent. 1561 01:06:24,445 --> 01:06:27,085 And it all comes back to soil microbial diversity, you 1562 01:06:27,085 --> 01:06:30,165 - Know, out competing fusarium is the only 1563 01:06:30,835 --> 01:06:33,045 potential solution that I see 1564 01:06:33,045 --> 01:06:35,605 that there is other than just dumping the soil. 1565 01:06:36,065 --> 01:06:38,085 Um, you know, we, we've talked about fusarium. 1566 01:06:38,085 --> 01:06:40,205 I've had fusarium specialists on this, on the, 1567 01:06:40,225 --> 01:06:41,765 on the, um, program. 1568 01:06:42,185 --> 01:06:44,765 And, and usually their answer is like, throw the soil away. 1569 01:06:44,765 --> 01:06:47,845 And I get that. Um, but, um, 1570 01:06:48,145 --> 01:06:50,965 but it's interesting to realize that as a preventative, 1571 01:06:51,135 --> 01:06:52,605 since fusarium iss everywhere, 1572 01:06:52,675 --> 01:06:54,445 it's not like it's not gonna be in your soil. 1573 01:06:55,065 --> 01:06:58,605 Um, just make sure you keep on, you know, adding microbes, 1574 01:06:58,735 --> 01:07:01,805 incubating like microbes, adding indigenous microbes 1575 01:07:02,305 --> 01:07:04,805 and fusarium will never get a good foothold. 1576 01:07:05,835 --> 01:07:07,725 - Yeah. I mean, you know, never is a strong 1577 01:07:07,725 --> 01:07:08,885 word, but I think Yeah, fair enough. 1578 01:07:08,885 --> 01:07:10,805 Fair enough. differently from, you know, 1579 01:07:10,805 --> 01:07:11,845 adding all the microbes 1580 01:07:11,845 --> 01:07:14,565 and really intentionally applying, you know, diverse forms 1581 01:07:14,565 --> 01:07:16,165 of microbes, whether they're from, you know, 1582 01:07:16,165 --> 01:07:18,085 your wildcrafting or input somebody could buy. 1583 01:07:18,525 --> 01:07:19,685 I think the other thing is, you know, 1584 01:07:19,715 --> 01:07:21,605 soil health practices really is where a lot 1585 01:07:21,605 --> 01:07:24,285 of this soil microbial diversity preservation can start. 1586 01:07:24,865 --> 01:07:27,085 Um, so those things like the prebiotics 1587 01:07:27,185 --> 01:07:28,405 and the organic inputs 1588 01:07:28,405 --> 01:07:32,045 and companion planting, uh, crop rotation, no-till, uh, 1589 01:07:32,075 --> 01:07:34,565 soil health, I think maybe even I would put higher on the 1590 01:07:34,565 --> 01:07:37,005 list than, uh, microbial accessible carbon from the, 1591 01:07:37,005 --> 01:07:37,925 the previous question 1592 01:07:38,125 --> 01:07:39,685 , but they're, they're related, right? Yeah. Yeah. 1593 01:07:39,685 --> 01:07:40,725 - Yeah. Alright, cool. 1594 01:07:40,745 --> 01:07:43,165 So the last topic I want to hit, uh, during here, 1595 01:07:43,165 --> 01:07:46,965 during the set two here is, um, you know, so, 1596 01:07:47,105 --> 01:07:48,445 so far this, uh, 1597 01:07:48,445 --> 01:07:51,605 this set we've been talking about the things that we can do 1598 01:07:52,225 --> 01:07:56,485 to make the living environment for the microbe life 1599 01:07:56,905 --> 01:07:59,925 and in the rhizosphere as diverse 1600 01:07:59,985 --> 01:08:01,765 and beneficial as possible. 1601 01:08:01,905 --> 01:08:04,405 And, and why that's kind of everything, right? 1602 01:08:04,785 --> 01:08:07,645 It, it, we keep on coming back to the same answer and it's 1603 01:08:07,645 --> 01:08:09,925 because the answer is, is kind of the only thing 1604 01:08:10,155 --> 01:08:13,365 that we need to be doing as regenerative farmers is, 1605 01:08:13,625 --> 01:08:17,565 is adding, um, adding diversity into the soil and then, 1606 01:08:17,585 --> 01:08:18,805 and let nature do the rest. 1607 01:08:18,985 --> 01:08:20,045 So, so that's great. 1608 01:08:20,705 --> 01:08:24,005 Um, I also am very attracted to the idea that the plant 1609 01:08:24,665 --> 01:08:29,045 is also, um, trying to help itself as well by, 1610 01:08:29,465 --> 01:08:31,885 by putting out, you know, exudates that, 1611 01:08:31,995 --> 01:08:36,085 that encourage particular microbes or, or, um, 1612 01:08:36,185 --> 01:08:39,445 or different residents in the rhizosphere where they're kind 1613 01:08:39,445 --> 01:08:43,125 of curating, uh, who they are attracting to them. 1614 01:08:43,745 --> 01:08:44,885 And I've heard you talk 1615 01:08:44,885 --> 01:08:47,845 before about, um, recruitment that, 1616 01:08:47,875 --> 01:08:51,645 that cannabis plants will recruit bacteria that, 1617 01:08:51,715 --> 01:08:53,445 that they find beneficial. 1618 01:08:53,825 --> 01:08:56,565 And, and I'm unfamiliar with this idea, but it, 1619 01:08:56,565 --> 01:08:58,565 but just the idea of it is fascinating. 1620 01:08:58,905 --> 01:09:01,845 So, so I, I don't know the right question to ask you on it, 1621 01:09:01,845 --> 01:09:03,605 so I'm just gonna kind of hand you the mic 1622 01:09:03,985 --> 01:09:05,525 and say, will you tell us about 1623 01:09:05,585 --> 01:09:09,565 how cannabis plants recruit beneficial bacteria itself, 1624 01:09:10,055 --> 01:09:11,245 kinda like intentionally? 1625 01:09:12,155 --> 01:09:13,445 - Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. 1626 01:09:13,585 --> 01:09:15,645 Um, I think, you know, there's a lot of, uh, 1627 01:09:16,005 --> 01:09:17,445 literature from the past five or six years 1628 01:09:17,515 --> 01:09:20,685 that show photo sensitive photo period sensitive plants 1629 01:09:20,785 --> 01:09:23,405 or plants that, you know, have major changes in development, 1630 01:09:23,865 --> 01:09:26,205 um, also changed their root exited profiles. 1631 01:09:26,205 --> 01:09:27,485 So I think it was first, you know, 1632 01:09:27,485 --> 01:09:31,285 learned about in a arabidopsis wild, wild mustard model, um, 1633 01:09:31,525 --> 01:09:34,245 a a plant that has a rosette stage and then it bolts 1634 01:09:34,245 --> 01:09:36,565 and then it makes flowers, and those flowers make seeds. 1635 01:09:36,745 --> 01:09:39,645 Um, at each one of those stages, uh, it was seen that the, 1636 01:09:39,645 --> 01:09:41,325 the root exited profiles change. 1637 01:09:41,465 --> 01:09:43,605 Um, you know, the early growth 1638 01:09:43,605 --> 01:09:45,245 and development, there was just a ton of sugar. 1639 01:09:45,305 --> 01:09:48,765 And later in the, uh, the flowering 1640 01:09:48,765 --> 01:09:51,445 and maturation, there was a lot of, you know, organic acids 1641 01:09:51,445 --> 01:09:54,165 and things that are, uh, can be harsh to certain microbes, 1642 01:09:54,165 --> 01:09:56,085 whereas sugar is like a really broad food source. 1643 01:09:56,425 --> 01:09:58,885 So the kind of thinking from the authors of that paper were, 1644 01:09:59,065 --> 01:10:00,605 um, and I'll get to cannabis too, 1645 01:10:00,685 --> 01:10:03,725 I promise were about, about, um, you know, 1646 01:10:03,785 --> 01:10:06,645 the developmental needs of the plant are changing, you know, 1647 01:10:06,675 --> 01:10:08,605 more nitrogen in the beginning, more phosphorus 1648 01:10:08,605 --> 01:10:09,765 and potassium later. 1649 01:10:09,905 --> 01:10:12,045 And, you know, those micronutrients trickled throughout. 1650 01:10:12,425 --> 01:10:14,565 Um, and we know that the microbes help 1651 01:10:14,585 --> 01:10:15,845 plants uptake these things. 1652 01:10:16,025 --> 01:10:18,925 So, you know, let's wonder if the plant is actually, 1653 01:10:19,545 --> 01:10:22,405 I'm gonna use the term, uh, intentionally, uh, signaling 1654 01:10:22,405 --> 01:10:24,045 for different things as it goes on 1655 01:10:24,045 --> 01:10:25,085 through growth and development. 1656 01:10:25,145 --> 01:10:28,405 So, I mean, being a cannabis enthusiast, seeing that study, 1657 01:10:28,525 --> 01:10:29,605 I was like, wow, you know, 1658 01:10:29,605 --> 01:10:32,405 what's the most popular photo sensitive photo period 1659 01:10:32,725 --> 01:10:33,725 sensitive plant that we use, 1660 01:10:33,785 --> 01:10:35,165 you know, happened cannabis, right? 1661 01:10:35,165 --> 01:10:39,005 Mm-Hmm. . Um, uh, so it was, I, 1662 01:10:39,235 --> 01:10:41,415 I'm not sure if root exited work has been done, um, 1663 01:10:41,475 --> 01:10:44,335 but we've done some work on the, um, 1664 01:10:44,715 --> 01:10:46,935 the vegetative versus the transition. 1665 01:10:47,275 --> 01:10:49,575 So, you know, maybe a couple weeks after flour onset 1666 01:10:49,575 --> 01:10:51,775 after the solstice and the days get short in an outdoor 1667 01:10:51,775 --> 01:10:54,935 system, um, as well as the harvest, uh, you know, 1668 01:10:55,415 --> 01:10:56,655 functional microbiome of cannabis. 1669 01:10:56,835 --> 01:11:00,455 And we see that, um, regardless of 1670 01:11:01,835 --> 01:11:06,255 the, you know, specific species of cannabis, uh, 1671 01:11:06,315 --> 01:11:08,415 or strain, uh, whether it's hemp 1672 01:11:08,415 --> 01:11:10,895 or cannabis 0.3%, THC producers 1673 01:11:10,895 --> 01:11:14,805 or higher, um, the same functions, 1674 01:11:14,805 --> 01:11:17,125 or at least the same bacterial genera are occurring in, 1675 01:11:17,145 --> 01:11:20,365 in a many different, uh, types of soil environments. 1676 01:11:20,505 --> 01:11:23,325 Um, we're using like the USDA climatic zones for that, 1677 01:11:23,385 --> 01:11:27,285 but basically, um, cannabis being as, as nutritionally, uh, 1678 01:11:29,535 --> 01:11:31,525 needy compared to some other plants. 1679 01:11:32,105 --> 01:11:36,125 Um, you know, we, we see, uh, really strong associations 1680 01:11:36,235 --> 01:11:39,165 with the bacteria, um, based on development. 1681 01:11:39,385 --> 01:11:42,285 So when we use the term like recruit, it's, it's kind 1682 01:11:42,285 --> 01:11:44,445 of like the, um, the cannabis plant is 1683 01:11:45,115 --> 01:11:47,165 sending these signals into the rhizosphere 1684 01:11:47,165 --> 01:11:50,125 to likely get some type of RSO spheric function 1685 01:11:50,345 --> 01:11:51,725 by the bacterial or fungal 1686 01:11:51,745 --> 01:11:53,485 or just anybody in the soil microbiome. 1687 01:11:53,745 --> 01:11:57,045 Um, and these needs are pretty standard from, you know, 1688 01:11:57,145 --> 01:12:00,765 the genus or the, the, the cannabis sativa plants, uh, 1689 01:12:00,765 --> 01:12:04,285 whether they, they are classified as hamper marijuana, uh, 1690 01:12:04,385 --> 01:12:06,085 you know, depending on the, the amount 1691 01:12:06,085 --> 01:12:07,445 of metabolite it produces, right? 1692 01:12:07,945 --> 01:12:10,885 Um, all that to say is plants really want microbes. 1693 01:12:11,185 --> 01:12:15,285 Um, and if we can kind of provide microbes, uh, 1694 01:12:15,285 --> 01:12:18,005 that the plant can't search for in indoor systems, um, 1695 01:12:18,825 --> 01:12:22,365 or in really, you know, low alpha diversity, 1696 01:12:22,945 --> 01:12:25,725 10 year monoculture corn field soils where there's lots, 1697 01:12:25,725 --> 01:12:26,965 there's like five different types 1698 01:12:26,965 --> 01:12:31,525 of microbes I'm exaggerating, um, then we can kind 1699 01:12:31,525 --> 01:12:33,765 of benefit the plant, uh, in a way 1700 01:12:34,235 --> 01:12:36,845 that it would in its natural environment in the wild type 1701 01:12:37,125 --> 01:12:38,685 relatives and the progenitors might have, 1702 01:12:38,745 --> 01:12:40,005 you know, kind of evolved to do 1703 01:12:41,625 --> 01:12:42,625 - So. 1704 01:12:42,625 --> 01:12:44,645 It sounds like, um, if I'm understanding you correctly, 1705 01:12:44,985 --> 01:12:49,005 the main point is that over the lifecycle of the plant, 1706 01:12:49,625 --> 01:12:51,685 the plants, uh, the, the, the dominant 1707 01:12:52,205 --> 01:12:54,685 bacterias in the rhizosphere changes, 1708 01:12:55,265 --> 01:12:57,125 and we know the mechanism, or, 1709 01:12:57,145 --> 01:12:58,965 or at least we're pretty sure that the mechanism 1710 01:12:59,505 --> 01:13:00,845 of why it changes is 1711 01:13:00,845 --> 01:13:03,285 because the plant wants different types of bacteria. 1712 01:13:03,425 --> 01:13:05,565 And so it's putting, the plant is putting out different 1713 01:13:05,565 --> 01:13:09,045 types of exudates to encourage different types of bacteria. 1714 01:13:09,825 --> 01:13:14,685 And so, um, the best thing that we can do is 1715 01:13:14,865 --> 01:13:18,765 to, um, you know, a, let the plant do its job 1716 01:13:19,265 --> 01:13:24,125 and then b, do our part by, um, offering, um, 1717 01:13:24,555 --> 01:13:29,085 varieties of other, um, nutritions and, 1718 01:13:29,185 --> 01:13:31,045 and probiotic bacterias 1719 01:13:31,045 --> 01:13:33,685 and such that, that the plant can't produce 1720 01:13:33,685 --> 01:13:35,045 and it needs to get its environment. 1721 01:13:35,305 --> 01:13:37,405 So that between the partnership between us 1722 01:13:37,545 --> 01:13:41,085 and the plant, the roots have just got everything it could 1723 01:13:41,485 --> 01:13:43,805 possibly desire to express itself most fully. 1724 01:13:44,665 --> 01:13:46,485 - Yes, that is a perfect distillation. Thank you. 1725 01:13:46,825 --> 01:13:50,525 And I think, um, you know, most importantly the, uh, I'm, 1726 01:13:50,545 --> 01:13:51,485 I'm gonna sound like a broken 1727 01:13:51,485 --> 01:13:52,685 record, but soil health, right? 1728 01:13:52,685 --> 01:13:55,125 Yeah. If the soil health is, is maintained, 1729 01:13:55,125 --> 01:13:56,205 then we are gonna assume, 1730 01:13:56,265 --> 01:13:57,405 and, you know, we've proven, 1731 01:13:57,595 --> 01:14:00,565 like the science has proven there's lots of alpha diversity, 1732 01:14:00,675 --> 01:14:02,845 microbial diversity in a very healthy soil. 1733 01:14:03,265 --> 01:14:06,325 Um, so whether or not the microbe that's present 1734 01:14:06,325 --> 01:14:08,405 during the vegetative growth period, uh, 1735 01:14:08,825 --> 01:14:11,765 of your cannabis plant's lifecycle is recruited 1736 01:14:11,785 --> 01:14:15,765 by the plant, um, during that time, if you maintain 1737 01:14:15,765 --> 01:14:18,205 that soil health, it's likely there will still be those 1738 01:14:18,205 --> 01:14:19,605 microbes in low enough cell numbers. 1739 01:14:19,745 --> 01:14:22,205 And then when the plant changes its root exudation 1740 01:14:22,605 --> 01:14:26,165 compounds, presumably to attract microbes to, uh, 1741 01:14:26,515 --> 01:14:30,645 help it meet its nutritional needs based on development, um, 1742 01:14:30,955 --> 01:14:33,685 then, you know, soil health maintains microbial diversity. 1743 01:14:33,775 --> 01:14:36,365 Those bugs are hanging around when your plant is flowering 1744 01:14:36,425 --> 01:14:39,005 and, and in need of those types of, uh, functions. 1745 01:14:39,595 --> 01:14:41,405 - Hell yeah. That's actually really exciting. 1746 01:14:41,725 --> 01:14:43,005 , I like that summary a lot. 1747 01:14:43,075 --> 01:14:47,925 It's like, uh, it's, it's very rare in, uh, discussing, 1748 01:14:48,385 --> 01:14:51,045 uh, soil health and, 1749 01:14:51,185 --> 01:14:53,765 and, you know, soil maximalism, if you will, 1750 01:14:54,145 --> 01:14:57,085 to actually have, uh, that clear of a recipe for 1751 01:14:57,085 --> 01:14:58,285 what we need to do this season. 1752 01:14:58,335 --> 01:15:01,685 Thank God, . So, yeah, right, right on. 1753 01:15:01,715 --> 01:15:03,245 Well, good. Well, well, thank you for that, Michael. 1754 01:15:03,335 --> 01:15:05,845 Let's go ahead and take our second, uh, commercial, 1755 01:15:06,345 --> 01:15:07,765 uh, and be right back. 1756 01:15:07,825 --> 01:15:09,405 Uh, you're listening to Shaping Fire, 1757 01:15:09,465 --> 01:15:12,285 and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue. 1758 01:15:12,505 --> 01:15:14,725 And remember, you know, without these advertisers shape 1759 01:15:14,725 --> 01:15:16,925 and fire wouldn't happen, so please support them 1760 01:15:16,945 --> 01:15:19,685 and let them know that you heard of them on shaping fire. 1761 01:15:22,345 --> 01:15:24,965 You've heard me talk about the award-winning cannabis seeds 1762 01:15:24,965 --> 01:15:27,685 that come from the analytical breeding program of Seth 1763 01:15:27,685 --> 01:15:30,645 and Eric Crawford, who founded Oregon CBD Seeds. 1764 01:15:30,825 --> 01:15:34,285 In fact, Seth was a guest on shaping fire in 2020 1765 01:15:34,625 --> 01:15:36,405 to talk about Triplo genetics. 1766 01:15:37,445 --> 01:15:40,205 Seth and Eric are now releasing high THC Seeds 1767 01:15:40,205 --> 01:15:43,245 for Home Growers and farms as grow the revolution 1768 01:15:43,855 --> 01:15:46,245 seeds@gtrseeds.com. 1769 01:15:47,095 --> 01:15:50,245 Their high THC seeds are extraordinary in 1770 01:15:50,245 --> 01:15:52,445 that they will start to flower at 16 1771 01:15:52,465 --> 01:15:55,925 and a half hours of daylight instead of the typical 14 1772 01:15:55,925 --> 01:15:57,165 and a half hours of daylight. 1773 01:15:57,515 --> 01:16:00,405 That means in most regions, your plants will start 1774 01:16:00,405 --> 01:16:03,685 to flower outdoors in the middle of July instead 1775 01:16:03,685 --> 01:16:04,805 of the middle of August, 1776 01:16:05,095 --> 01:16:08,085 which means these photo period plants finish in September 1777 01:16:08,425 --> 01:16:11,205 and not October totally upending the 1778 01:16:11,205 --> 01:16:12,445 photo period seed market. 1779 01:16:13,485 --> 01:16:16,885 Seth and Eric took their prized early flowering CBG line 1780 01:16:17,105 --> 01:16:20,645 and bbr it to some of the most desired verified genetics out 1781 01:16:20,885 --> 01:16:24,405 there, including sour diesel, triangle, Kush, wedding cake, 1782 01:16:24,805 --> 01:16:26,165 chem dogs, Skittles, and others. 1783 01:16:26,735 --> 01:16:29,245 These crosses all express powerful photo 1784 01:16:29,245 --> 01:16:30,645 period terpene profiles. 1785 01:16:30,645 --> 01:16:33,005 And THC giving you a great high 1786 01:16:33,925 --> 01:16:36,725 GTR seeds has a new THCV line 1787 01:16:36,915 --> 01:16:38,525 with plants like doubled Durban 1788 01:16:38,525 --> 01:16:43,125 and Gigantor that boast one-to-one THC to THCV. 1789 01:16:43,425 --> 01:16:47,805 And people want that. T-H-C-V-G-T-R seeds are very 1790 01:16:47,805 --> 01:16:52,245 consistent, true growing inbred F ones from stabilized 1791 01:16:52,425 --> 01:16:53,485 inbred parent lines. 1792 01:16:53,855 --> 01:16:56,125 These seeds are nearly homogenous, 1793 01:16:56,305 --> 01:16:58,325 and the plants should all grow the same. 1794 01:16:58,735 --> 01:17:02,205 There is only one phenotype in every pack available 1795 01:17:02,345 --> 01:17:03,845 as Diploids and triploids. 1796 01:17:04,685 --> 01:17:07,325 Seth and Eric's company is still family owned, patient 1797 01:17:07,425 --> 01:17:08,445 and employee centric, 1798 01:17:08,545 --> 01:17:11,565 and partially powered by their two acres of solar panels. 1799 01:17:12,525 --> 01:17:14,845 Everyone can purchase these seeds in the entire catalog 1800 01:17:14,985 --> 01:17:19,205 of Oregon cb d seeds@gtrseeds.com. 1801 01:17:19,745 --> 01:17:21,845 Go to gtr seeds.com today 1802 01:17:22,105 --> 01:17:23,645 and choose something revolutionary 1803 01:17:23,645 --> 01:17:25,485 for your next indoor or outdoor run. 1804 01:17:28,615 --> 01:17:31,625 Fish poop brand fertilizer is an all-natural fish poop 1805 01:17:31,985 --> 01:17:33,185 concentrate with nothing added. 1806 01:17:33,775 --> 01:17:36,145 Real fish poop is extraordinarily complex. 1807 01:17:36,845 --> 01:17:39,305 Not only are you adding the nitrogen, phosphorus, 1808 01:17:39,305 --> 01:17:40,785 and potassium, your plants need 1809 01:17:40,785 --> 01:17:43,105 to build mass transport nutrients and enhanced flavor. 1810 01:17:43,685 --> 01:17:47,145 But fish waste is also packed with biological activity 1811 01:17:47,205 --> 01:17:48,425 and micronutrients. 1812 01:17:49,055 --> 01:17:51,825 When you add fish poop to your irrigation water, 1813 01:17:52,165 --> 01:17:55,865 you are adding life force probiotics and active microbes. 1814 01:17:56,275 --> 01:17:59,345 These microorganisms include a wealth of various bacteria 1815 01:17:59,365 --> 01:18:01,705 and protozoa, which further enhance nutrient 1816 01:18:01,705 --> 01:18:03,105 availability for the plants. 1817 01:18:03,935 --> 01:18:06,665 Because plants are limited by the absence 1818 01:18:06,665 --> 01:18:08,305 of any essential micronutrient, 1819 01:18:08,595 --> 01:18:10,545 these trace nutrients are the difference 1820 01:18:10,545 --> 01:18:12,065 between having a decent garden 1821 01:18:12,285 --> 01:18:13,945 and having a garden that makes you feel 1822 01:18:13,945 --> 01:18:15,225 really proud of your efforts. 1823 01:18:15,975 --> 01:18:18,465 Fish poop is a naturally complete solution 1824 01:18:18,495 --> 01:18:20,705 that fills in the cracks in your fertilizer program 1825 01:18:20,925 --> 01:18:24,745 to ensure you offer your garden a broad base of nutrients. 1826 01:18:25,485 --> 01:18:27,465 Not all fish poop is created equally. 1827 01:18:28,095 --> 01:18:31,065 Most products with added fish waste don't reveal their 1828 01:18:31,065 --> 01:18:32,505 sources or lab results. 1829 01:18:33,135 --> 01:18:34,785 Fish poop, brand fish poop, 1830 01:18:34,785 --> 01:18:38,065 however, generates their own fish waste as a byproduct 1831 01:18:38,085 --> 01:18:40,385 of their organic aquaponics cannabis farm 1832 01:18:40,385 --> 01:18:43,185 where they raise ornamental koi in tilapia, 1833 01:18:43,885 --> 01:18:46,345 you are even invited to tour their farm in person 1834 01:18:46,485 --> 01:18:48,785 or on their YouTube channel to look for yourself. 1835 01:18:49,415 --> 01:18:51,705 This sort of transparency is wildly rare 1836 01:18:51,705 --> 01:18:52,865 in the fertilizer market. 1837 01:18:53,725 --> 01:18:56,705 The folks behind fish poop are also lifelong medical 1838 01:18:57,145 --> 01:18:59,425 cannabis producers who have deep connections in the 1839 01:18:59,825 --> 01:19:02,385 community donate more product than they sell 1840 01:19:02,725 --> 01:19:04,945 and support cannabis prisoner, veteran 1841 01:19:05,125 --> 01:19:06,945 and patient collectives and charities. 1842 01:19:07,765 --> 01:19:11,785 To get your bottle of pure fish poop, go to fish poop.com 1843 01:19:12,165 --> 01:19:14,825 and to see their entire line of cannabis products go 1844 01:19:14,825 --> 01:19:16,145 to ounce of hope.com. 1845 01:19:16,565 --> 01:19:19,025 That's fish poop, brand fish poop. 1846 01:19:22,215 --> 01:19:25,315 One of the reasons why no-till cannabis growing is so valued 1847 01:19:25,415 --> 01:19:26,515 by farmers is 1848 01:19:26,515 --> 01:19:29,195 because the mycelium networks in the soil remain 1849 01:19:29,195 --> 01:19:30,675 established from year to year. 1850 01:19:31,295 --> 01:19:33,595 And we know these fungal networks are essential 1851 01:19:33,595 --> 01:19:36,955 because they're the nutrient super highways that extend far 1852 01:19:36,955 --> 01:19:39,635 and wide in the substrate to feed your plants. 1853 01:19:40,295 --> 01:19:42,715 The trouble with growing in new living soils 1854 01:19:42,715 --> 01:19:45,755 or blended cocoa substrates is that it takes most 1855 01:19:45,775 --> 01:19:49,515 of the plant's life just to create these mycelium highways, 1856 01:19:50,715 --> 01:19:53,875 dyno, mico, endo, microrisal fungi inoculate reduces 1857 01:19:53,875 --> 01:19:56,835 that time and gets your plant eating a wider array 1858 01:19:56,855 --> 01:19:58,035 of nutrients faster. 1859 01:19:58,615 --> 01:20:00,435 And it's three times the concentration 1860 01:20:00,575 --> 01:20:04,595 of the other popular brand in the US at 900 propagules per 1861 01:20:04,755 --> 01:20:07,525 gram of two fungal species selected specifically 1862 01:20:07,745 --> 01:20:09,085 for cannabis cultivation. 1863 01:20:10,005 --> 01:20:12,205 Dyna Myco is the result of 30 years of research 1864 01:20:12,205 --> 01:20:14,805 and trials at the Ani Agricultural Research 1865 01:20:14,805 --> 01:20:15,925 Institute in Israel. 1866 01:20:16,185 --> 01:20:18,685 It has also been vigorously trialed by cannabis 1867 01:20:18,745 --> 01:20:20,445 and food growers across the us. 1868 01:20:21,485 --> 01:20:23,685 Dyna Myco is now available at Grow Shops 1869 01:20:23,705 --> 01:20:25,645 and on Amazon in the United States. 1870 01:20:26,365 --> 01:20:28,725 I love using Dyna Myco to both speed up the growth 1871 01:20:28,725 --> 01:20:30,565 of the mycelium networks in the soil, 1872 01:20:30,865 --> 01:20:32,445 but also as a bios stimulant 1873 01:20:32,545 --> 01:20:34,365 to make clone cuttings more vir. 1874 01:20:34,945 --> 01:20:37,805 You can see side-by-side showing the comparative growth on 1875 01:20:37,805 --> 01:20:39,565 their Instagram at Dyno Myco. 1876 01:20:40,185 --> 01:20:42,365 If you demand reliable growing results 1877 01:20:42,425 --> 01:20:43,845 and appreciate the importance 1878 01:20:43,845 --> 01:20:46,365 of an active root zone in creating a thriving plant, 1879 01:20:46,805 --> 01:20:49,325 I encourage you to check out dyno mico.com 1880 01:20:49,505 --> 01:20:51,725 and use the store locator to find out 1881 01:20:51,725 --> 01:20:52,885 where you can get yours. 1882 01:20:53,385 --> 01:20:56,925 That's D-Y-N-O-M-Y-C 1883 01:20:57,005 --> 01:20:59,245 o.com shaping. 1884 01:20:59,275 --> 01:21:01,805 Fire listeners can get 10% off any size 1885 01:21:01,805 --> 01:21:04,565 of Dyna myco on dyna myco.com 1886 01:21:04,785 --> 01:21:09,045 by using the discount code shaping fired one word no caps. 1887 01:21:09,555 --> 01:21:12,125 Whether you are starting with new beds or pots, 1888 01:21:12,145 --> 01:21:14,405 or if you want to add some zing to tired soil, 1889 01:21:14,545 --> 01:21:17,245 choose Dyna Myco to maximize your plant's potential. 1890 01:21:18,205 --> 01:21:22,195 Dyna Myco Endo Michal inoculate. Welcome back. 1891 01:21:22,195 --> 01:21:23,475 You are listening to Shaping Fire. 1892 01:21:23,715 --> 01:21:25,155 I am your host Shang Los, 1893 01:21:25,175 --> 01:21:27,875 and my guest today is microbiologist Michael Delegue. 1894 01:21:28,215 --> 01:21:29,915 So here we are at the big finish. 1895 01:21:29,975 --> 01:21:31,155 You know, during the first set, 1896 01:21:31,175 --> 01:21:33,035 we talked all about biostimulants 1897 01:21:33,055 --> 01:21:34,635 and plant growth regulators 1898 01:21:34,935 --> 01:21:38,275 and what we wanted to do as regenerative cultivators 1899 01:21:38,415 --> 01:21:40,955 to make sure that we have the healthiest, 1900 01:21:40,955 --> 01:21:44,395 most biodiverse soil so the plant can do its job 1901 01:21:44,815 --> 01:21:47,635 of growing in a healthy way that resists pests 1902 01:21:47,635 --> 01:21:49,795 and gives us awesome yields and terpenes. 1903 01:21:50,015 --> 01:21:51,355 During the second set, 1904 01:21:51,575 --> 01:21:54,395 we talked a bit more about the care intending 1905 01:21:54,395 --> 01:21:56,955 of micro life specifically, and, and, 1906 01:21:56,975 --> 01:22:01,195 and not only how we can add, uh, microbes 1907 01:22:01,255 --> 01:22:03,595 and biodiversity like we were talking in the first set, 1908 01:22:03,775 --> 01:22:06,435 but also how we can help them thrive 1909 01:22:06,495 --> 01:22:09,195 and keep them well fed with, uh, carbon. 1910 01:22:10,135 --> 01:22:13,635 And here on the third set, um, we're just gonna hit on, um, 1911 01:22:13,815 --> 01:22:18,475 two more kind of miscellaneous, uh, biodiversity topics, um, 1912 01:22:18,475 --> 01:22:20,235 that didn't fit in the other two sections, 1913 01:22:20,235 --> 01:22:21,755 but I think are really important 1914 01:22:21,815 --> 01:22:23,595 and things that we have talked about, uh, 1915 01:22:23,605 --> 01:22:25,675 prior on the conver on the, on the program. 1916 01:22:26,375 --> 01:22:29,955 So the first of the two is, uh, choosing companion plants 1917 01:22:29,975 --> 01:22:31,235 to encourage biodiversity. 1918 01:22:31,455 --> 01:22:34,995 So Michael, we've talked quite a bit today about, uh, 1919 01:22:35,205 --> 01:22:36,355 plant exudates 1920 01:22:36,355 --> 01:22:39,795 and how plants push out the ex exudates from the root 1921 01:22:39,995 --> 01:22:42,075 structure, um, uh, and, and, 1922 01:22:42,215 --> 01:22:45,755 and attract different, um, um, microbial life 1923 01:22:45,755 --> 01:22:49,675 and life forms in the rhizosphere, um, that, that it wants 1924 01:22:49,675 --> 01:22:53,235 to use as, as, uh, different, you know, flavors of tools. 1925 01:22:54,295 --> 01:22:57,555 And, and, and I understand that like the plants 1926 01:22:57,585 --> 01:23:00,595 that are planted near our cannabis plants 1927 01:23:01,455 --> 01:23:05,765 can influence the rhizosphere of our cannabis plant 1928 01:23:05,955 --> 01:23:10,285 because it is also calling forth different types 1929 01:23:10,345 --> 01:23:13,965 of nutrition and mycelium, um, to its, uh, 1930 01:23:14,075 --> 01:23:15,485 root systems as well. 1931 01:23:16,305 --> 01:23:19,685 And, um, I understand, um, you know, partly 1932 01:23:19,685 --> 01:23:23,845 what you study is, is, um, how these systems may interact 1933 01:23:24,385 --> 01:23:28,245 and, and how to choose companion plants that will 1934 01:23:29,465 --> 01:23:33,525 be a good neighbor for whatever the target plant that, 1935 01:23:33,635 --> 01:23:35,525 that we're looking to grow in. 1936 01:23:35,545 --> 01:23:37,525 In our case, we're talking about cannabis. 1937 01:23:37,865 --> 01:23:40,645 And so will you kind of, um, talk us through how 1938 01:23:40,665 --> 01:23:44,485 to think about choosing our companion plants and, 1939 01:23:44,625 --> 01:23:46,405 and in order to encourage the, 1940 01:23:46,425 --> 01:23:49,285 the most biodiversity in our soil? 1941 01:23:50,875 --> 01:23:52,605 - Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reason 1942 01:23:52,605 --> 01:23:54,845 that this isn't more, you know, widespread or adapted 1943 01:23:54,845 --> 01:23:56,125 or adopted rather is, is 1944 01:23:56,125 --> 01:23:58,205 because of the, um, the scalability of this. 1945 01:23:58,305 --> 01:23:59,565 But I, I would love to see it, you know, 1946 01:23:59,785 --> 01:24:01,165 on hundreds of acres. 1947 01:24:01,685 --> 01:24:04,645 I think, um, two really cool examples that were new to me 1948 01:24:04,705 --> 01:24:07,965 for kind of companion planting for cannabis would be, um, 1949 01:24:08,125 --> 01:24:10,085 I had some friends do the three sisters, 1950 01:24:10,265 --> 01:24:12,605 but replace the corn with the, um, 1951 01:24:13,305 --> 01:24:14,925 the cannabis plant as opposed to corn. 1952 01:24:14,985 --> 01:24:17,565 Um, and for those who don't know, the three sisters is corn, 1953 01:24:17,815 --> 01:24:18,925 beans and squash. 1954 01:24:19,425 --> 01:24:22,045 The corn serves as a trellis for the beans to grow up. 1955 01:24:22,585 --> 01:24:26,525 Um, the beans have a nitrogen fixing symbiotic bacterium 1956 01:24:26,525 --> 01:24:28,285 called rhizobium that live in their roots, 1957 01:24:28,385 --> 01:24:30,765 and that nitrogen can get leached outta their roots 1958 01:24:30,785 --> 01:24:33,405 and be available for both the corn and the squash. 1959 01:24:33,745 --> 01:24:36,285 And then the squash with their large leaves at the base 1960 01:24:36,285 --> 01:24:38,965 of the plant, they provide shade, so soil stays kind 1961 01:24:38,965 --> 01:24:41,765 of cooler temperatures and doesn't get baked from the sun. 1962 01:24:42,305 --> 01:24:46,085 Um, so in this case, uh, they replaced the corn with the, 1963 01:24:46,085 --> 01:24:48,285 the hemp plants and the cannabis plants to serve as 1964 01:24:48,285 --> 01:24:50,685 that trellis for the, the beans to climb up. 1965 01:24:50,745 --> 01:24:52,405 Um, and both, you know, the squash 1966 01:24:52,545 --> 01:24:56,445 and the, excuse me, the hemp was able 1967 01:24:56,445 --> 01:24:58,565 to benefit from the beans being present due to 1968 01:24:58,565 --> 01:25:00,485 that rhizobium bacterium being there. 1969 01:25:00,665 --> 01:25:03,885 Um, and also, you know, certain soil temperatures, 1970 01:25:03,885 --> 01:25:06,045 if they get too hot, that can actually be detrimental 1971 01:25:06,105 --> 01:25:08,845 to microbial, um, populations. 1972 01:25:08,945 --> 01:25:11,845 So having that cooling effect from the squash leaves, uh, 1973 01:25:11,845 --> 01:25:14,165 depending on your growing environment, Colorado, 1974 01:25:14,185 --> 01:25:16,845 we have 320 days of direct sunshine 1975 01:25:16,845 --> 01:25:18,485 that can help cool it down, um, 1976 01:25:18,485 --> 01:25:21,365 to keep those soil temperatures, uh, happy for lots 1977 01:25:21,365 --> 01:25:23,925 of different things to, to keep growing rather than just, 1978 01:25:24,025 --> 01:25:26,205 uh, you know, the ones that are tolerant to warm soil 1979 01:25:26,745 --> 01:25:27,965 - Before you move past another. 1980 01:25:28,075 --> 01:25:30,965 Hold on. Before you move past the three sisters, I have got 1981 01:25:30,965 --> 01:25:32,525 to ask, are you serious? 1982 01:25:33,185 --> 01:25:37,165 We want to have beans climbing up our cannabis plants. 1983 01:25:37,875 --> 01:25:40,725 Like, that sounds awful. Like, does that work? 1984 01:25:40,785 --> 01:25:42,005 Do they, I mean, I imagine 1985 01:25:42,005 --> 01:25:44,685 that the bean plants get all into the flowers and then, 1986 01:25:45,625 --> 01:25:46,765 and how does that work? 1987 01:25:47,845 --> 01:25:50,605 - I think it might require a little bit more, um, uh, 1988 01:25:50,605 --> 01:25:52,485 maintenance from the cultivator than, 1989 01:25:52,485 --> 01:25:54,565 than most people can do in a production system. 1990 01:25:54,865 --> 01:25:57,845 Um, but yeah, so they would kind of climb up and, 1991 01:25:57,865 --> 01:26:00,805 and on the fan leaves and things along those lines, um, 1992 01:26:01,545 --> 01:26:03,365 - Do the - Bean bush bean are also very, the 1993 01:26:03,365 --> 01:26:04,525 - Beans stay closer to the stalk. 1994 01:26:04,765 --> 01:26:07,245 'cause like normally the flowers are, are, you know, kind 1995 01:26:07,245 --> 01:26:08,445 of far away from the stalk. 1996 01:26:08,745 --> 01:26:12,485 So, so are the, are the beans perha perhaps gonna just like, 1997 01:26:12,515 --> 01:26:14,645 grow up the center of the plant 1998 01:26:14,985 --> 01:26:17,285 and not grow out to the flowers? 1999 01:26:17,505 --> 01:26:20,885 Or will the, would the beans eventually grow out the 2000 01:26:20,885 --> 01:26:22,005 branch to the flowers? 2001 01:26:22,865 --> 01:26:25,725 - The ones I, the ones I saw in the system were, were more 2002 01:26:25,725 --> 01:26:27,645 so like the, the tips of the bean vines 2003 01:26:27,745 --> 01:26:29,205 or, you know, yeah, were kind 2004 01:26:29,205 --> 01:26:30,925 of hanging out in the empty space 2005 01:26:30,925 --> 01:26:33,245 between fan leaves in the middle parts of the plant. 2006 01:26:33,245 --> 01:26:35,085 They didn't, might quite make it up to that top cola. 2007 01:26:35,505 --> 01:26:37,845 Um, and, you know, this is a one one example, right? 2008 01:26:37,985 --> 01:26:40,165 So, um, another approach to this though, 2009 01:26:40,445 --> 01:26:41,965 'cause I do hear what you're saying with, you know, 2010 01:26:41,965 --> 01:26:45,245 beans could effectively act like a, a bind, weeded, um, 2011 01:26:45,345 --> 01:26:47,245 and pull plants down like that. 2012 01:26:47,385 --> 01:26:49,245 So I think, um, a bush bean 2013 01:26:49,345 --> 01:26:50,885 or a different type of legume, 2014 01:26:50,885 --> 01:26:54,325 like a cow p might be a better type of nitrogen fixer to get 2015 01:26:54,325 --> 01:26:56,405 that, you know, diverse root exed profile, 2016 01:26:56,405 --> 01:26:58,645 diverse microbiome from the root exodus. 2017 01:26:58,825 --> 01:27:01,525 Um, and the nitrogen component too from the legume plants. 2018 01:27:02,025 --> 01:27:03,685 - And so those different type, those bush bean. 2019 01:27:03,785 --> 01:27:05,525 And, and the reason why those are better is 2020 01:27:05,525 --> 01:27:08,005 because you would plant those at the foot 2021 01:27:08,105 --> 01:27:09,245 of the cannabis plant. 2022 01:27:09,545 --> 01:27:12,005 And so their rhizosphere is could talk to each other, 2023 01:27:12,425 --> 01:27:14,885 but the plant is not a climbing bean. 2024 01:27:15,185 --> 01:27:18,285 And so you'll just have like bean shrubbery at the 2025 01:27:18,285 --> 01:27:20,725 bottom of your cannabis plant, which is fine. 2026 01:27:21,345 --> 01:27:22,925 Um, it just won't climb the plant. 2027 01:27:23,025 --> 01:27:24,245 Is that where, where that goes? 2028 01:27:24,745 --> 01:27:26,085 - Yes, absolutely. And so like 2029 01:27:26,085 --> 01:27:28,445 that RSO sphere becomes representative of at least, 2030 01:27:28,505 --> 01:27:30,525 you know, two to three different types of plant species 2031 01:27:30,595 --> 01:27:32,405 with your, what your vining squash, you know, 2032 01:27:32,405 --> 01:27:33,405 your fruits should be okay. 2033 01:27:33,565 --> 01:27:35,325 'cause there'll be far away from the rest of the beans 2034 01:27:35,395 --> 01:27:36,965 that are kind of pushing at the base. 2035 01:27:37,345 --> 01:27:39,045 Um, but if you have all those roots kind 2036 01:27:39,045 --> 01:27:40,565 of in the same root ball, as long 2037 01:27:40,565 --> 01:27:41,605 as there's adequate nutrition 2038 01:27:41,605 --> 01:27:44,605 and organic material, um, that will be like a very healthy, 2039 01:27:44,675 --> 01:27:46,925 diverse microbiome, uh, as a factor 2040 01:27:46,925 --> 01:27:48,285 of just having three different hosts. 2041 01:27:48,755 --> 01:27:51,485 - Yeah, I like that a lot. And, um, we've talked on the show 2042 01:27:51,485 --> 01:27:55,205 before too, that people who, uh, who grow in berms 2043 01:27:55,205 --> 01:27:57,685 that are heavy built up with, uh, compost 2044 01:27:57,905 --> 01:27:59,685 and, you know, grass clippings and, 2045 01:27:59,705 --> 01:28:02,605 and other agricultural clippings, um, it's very popular 2046 01:28:02,705 --> 01:28:04,045 to grow potatoes in that too. 2047 01:28:04,265 --> 01:28:06,045 So, you know, you've got your potatoes and your beans 2048 01:28:06,065 --> 01:28:08,325 and your squash kind of trailing off down the, 2049 01:28:08,435 --> 01:28:09,525 down the line of plants. 2050 01:28:09,985 --> 01:28:12,365 Um, I've, I've always loved the idea of, 2051 01:28:12,825 --> 01:28:15,845 of growing food crops with the cannabis so 2052 01:28:15,845 --> 01:28:20,045 that you can feed yourself as well as, you know, smoke 2053 01:28:20,045 --> 01:28:21,285 and save your soul, if you will. 2054 01:28:21,965 --> 01:28:23,445 - Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. - Um, okay. 2055 01:28:23,445 --> 01:28:25,805 So now that I've pushed you on that , what other, 2056 01:28:25,835 --> 01:28:26,925 what other strategies 2057 01:28:26,925 --> 01:28:30,765 or plans do you have in mind for, um, uh, creating a a, um, 2058 01:28:31,155 --> 01:28:32,925 diverse, uh, rhizosphere? 2059 01:28:33,655 --> 01:28:35,545 - Well, this was something that was kind of, um, 2060 01:28:35,925 --> 01:28:37,025 new to me that I read about. 2061 01:28:37,105 --> 01:28:39,185 I didn't get to see this one in, in in action, 2062 01:28:39,365 --> 01:28:42,265 but it was a, a farm that had been co planting, um, 2063 01:28:42,965 --> 01:28:44,785 um, a plant with a mushroom. 2064 01:28:44,805 --> 01:28:47,705 So they were kind of using myceliated, uh, beds 2065 01:28:47,845 --> 01:28:50,905 of a wine cap mushroom to get, um, both harvest 2066 01:28:50,965 --> 01:28:54,145 of wine cap fungi, edible mushrooms at the base of the soil 2067 01:28:54,405 --> 01:28:57,385 and the, uh, the hemp was able to grow, um, 2068 01:28:57,525 --> 01:28:59,105 and flour at the top. 2069 01:28:59,205 --> 01:29:01,685 So it was kind of getting, um, both, you know, that 2070 01:29:02,225 --> 01:29:05,565 fungal microbiome benefit, uh, as well as the, 2071 01:29:05,905 --> 01:29:07,005 the plant roots there too. 2072 01:29:07,025 --> 01:29:08,565 So not directly, you know, plant 2073 01:29:08,565 --> 01:29:09,925 to plant signaling like we're seeing 2074 01:29:09,925 --> 01:29:12,005 with like the three sisters we just discussed. 2075 01:29:12,465 --> 01:29:15,085 Um, but something along the lines of, you know, trying 2076 01:29:15,085 --> 01:29:18,725 to have, uh, more bang for your buck in terms 2077 01:29:18,725 --> 01:29:21,165 of square footage for harvesting and things like that. Um, 2078 01:29:21,345 --> 01:29:23,005 - And the wine cap mushroom is, uh, one 2079 01:29:23,005 --> 01:29:24,245 of my favorite eating mushrooms. 2080 01:29:24,245 --> 01:29:25,565 They're absolutely delicious. 2081 01:29:26,085 --> 01:29:28,645 I, I tried to do that in my indoor and it didn't work out 2082 01:29:28,645 --> 01:29:31,605 because the, the humidity for mushrooms seems 2083 01:29:31,605 --> 01:29:34,965 to be a little higher, um, than we want it 2084 01:29:34,965 --> 01:29:36,205 to be in an indoor setting. 2085 01:29:36,205 --> 01:29:39,725 It seems to work well outdoors, um, so long 2086 01:29:39,725 --> 01:29:41,445 as you've got good plant coverage 2087 01:29:41,445 --> 01:29:43,525 because, uh, normally we want our plants 2088 01:29:44,185 --> 01:29:45,525 in direct sunlight, right? 2089 01:29:45,615 --> 01:29:48,365 Right. But the mushrooms don't wanna 2090 01:29:48,365 --> 01:29:49,405 be in the direct sunlight. 2091 01:29:49,405 --> 01:29:50,965 So you gotta make sure that you're growing plants 2092 01:29:50,965 --> 01:29:54,365 that are gonna be big enough to, um, create that shadow 2093 01:29:54,455 --> 01:29:57,205 underneath that allows the, the wine caps to exist. 2094 01:29:57,515 --> 01:29:59,445 - Yeah. Maintain that humid microclimate 2095 01:29:59,445 --> 01:30:00,685 underneath the plant canopy 2096 01:30:00,685 --> 01:30:02,165 that is super ideal for mushrooms, 2097 01:30:02,235 --> 01:30:03,235 - Ands. 2098 01:30:03,235 --> 01:30:03,445 Oh, and the squash will help with that 2099 01:30:03,585 --> 01:30:04,485 too, that you're talking about. 2100 01:30:05,195 --> 01:30:07,045 - Yeah, - Absolutely. Those, those big leads. Yeah. 2101 01:30:07,875 --> 01:30:11,005 Alright. Um, do you have any more on that before, uh, 2102 01:30:11,005 --> 01:30:12,085 before I move on? 2103 01:30:13,185 --> 01:30:15,565 - Uh, I think just companion planting is really, 2104 01:30:15,565 --> 01:30:16,605 really excellent. 2105 01:30:16,665 --> 01:30:20,085 And I think there is a, um, you know, go back 2106 01:30:20,085 --> 01:30:21,685 to the literature and, and look out, you know, 2107 01:30:21,685 --> 01:30:23,005 if you have deer eating your, 2108 01:30:23,005 --> 01:30:25,005 your hemp marigolds can be 2109 01:30:25,005 --> 01:30:26,205 deterrents for deer, right? 2110 01:30:26,445 --> 01:30:27,325 I think there's a different, 2111 01:30:27,595 --> 01:30:29,205 different plant for a different need. 2112 01:30:29,345 --> 01:30:32,485 Um, and just always going back to the more diverse roots 2113 01:30:32,505 --> 01:30:34,765 and host in the, in the soil would, you know, 2114 01:30:34,965 --> 01:30:36,925 increase your soil health and microbial diversity there. 2115 01:30:37,145 --> 01:30:40,285 - So, so I actually was planning on doing, um, big pots 2116 01:30:40,285 --> 01:30:42,285 of marigolds, uh, next to the plants 2117 01:30:42,345 --> 01:30:44,365 for the first time this year, um, 2118 01:30:44,365 --> 01:30:46,805 because we do have a lot of deer pressure 2119 01:30:46,865 --> 01:30:49,485 and luckily I got some, um, some deer fencing this year, 2120 01:30:49,545 --> 01:30:50,645 so hopefully that'll help too. 2121 01:30:50,785 --> 01:30:54,645 But, um, is it, is it as effective that if the, um, 2122 01:30:55,105 --> 01:30:59,565 the marigolds are, are not in the pot with the candles 2123 01:30:59,565 --> 01:31:01,925 or in the ground next to it, but like, are beside it 2124 01:31:02,515 --> 01:31:04,965 that the smell of the marigolds is enough 2125 01:31:04,985 --> 01:31:06,205 to keep the deer off? 2126 01:31:06,205 --> 01:31:09,605 Or will the deer just come over and browse the weeded and, 2127 01:31:09,665 --> 01:31:11,805 and just ignore the marigold? 2128 01:31:12,675 --> 01:31:14,845 - I'll be fully honest with you, uh, when I, when I tried 2129 01:31:14,845 --> 01:31:18,285 to use marigolds as a, a deterrent crop in, in Maryland, I, 2130 01:31:18,365 --> 01:31:20,405 I watched a deer chew one down before . 2131 01:31:20,705 --> 01:31:22,925 Uh, so, you know, that's kinda like your 2132 01:31:22,925 --> 01:31:24,565 - Mileage may vary , - Right? 2133 01:31:24,565 --> 01:31:26,925 Yeah. You know, like, uh, kind of like different, 2134 01:31:26,925 --> 01:31:29,245 different strains of cannabis might have different terpenoid 2135 01:31:29,445 --> 01:31:32,445 or cannabinoid profiles, different species of marigolds, 2136 01:31:32,445 --> 01:31:34,365 you know, they have the multicolored ones have different, 2137 01:31:34,425 --> 01:31:36,365 uh, type of phytochemical profiles 2138 01:31:36,385 --> 01:31:38,365 or, you know, those volatile organic compounds 2139 01:31:38,365 --> 01:31:39,445 that smell icky to deer. 2140 01:31:40,025 --> 01:31:43,365 Um, um, so I, I don't know a variety off the top of my head, 2141 01:31:43,365 --> 01:31:45,485 but I imagine that, um, you know, 2142 01:31:45,485 --> 01:31:46,565 it's very species specific. 2143 01:31:46,695 --> 01:31:49,165 - Right on. Well, thank you. I, I appreciate your, uh, 2144 01:31:49,165 --> 01:31:50,645 your honesty in that and you know, 2145 01:31:50,865 --> 01:31:52,165 if we're really gonna go for it. 2146 01:31:52,505 --> 01:31:53,565 Um, you know, 2147 01:31:53,565 --> 01:31:55,645 these bio regions have got different deer, right? 2148 01:31:55,945 --> 01:31:58,405 So different deer could be, um, accustomed 2149 01:31:58,405 --> 01:32:00,525 to browsing different types of plants, whereas, 2150 01:32:00,795 --> 01:32:05,205 whereas Mar Maryland deer don't like, uh, marigolds, but, 2151 01:32:05,305 --> 01:32:07,165 or, or no, do like Mari or they did Yeah. 2152 01:32:07,245 --> 01:32:08,805 - , they do - Like marigolds and, 2153 01:32:08,905 --> 01:32:13,125 and maybe, you know, my west coast deer, um, are more, um, 2154 01:32:13,405 --> 01:32:15,245 snooty and they don't want marigolds, you know? 2155 01:32:15,295 --> 01:32:17,845 Right. Or something like that. So. Alright. 2156 01:32:18,145 --> 01:32:21,085 Um, but before we leave the companion planning topic, 2157 01:32:21,245 --> 01:32:23,765 I just wanted to ask, are there any, um, plants that are, 2158 01:32:23,825 --> 01:32:28,725 um, obviously, um, um, uh, poor neighbors, um, the, 2159 01:32:28,745 --> 01:32:31,525 the, the name for it is, is escaping me at the moment, but, 2160 01:32:31,585 --> 01:32:33,005 but there's, there are often plants 2161 01:32:33,005 --> 01:32:35,445 that you don't wanna plant near other plants 2162 01:32:35,445 --> 01:32:37,205 because they, they, they will make, 2163 01:32:37,205 --> 01:32:39,365 they might poison each other or, or, or, 2164 01:32:39,365 --> 01:32:41,405 or be toxic to the other person's 2165 01:32:41,505 --> 01:32:43,125 or the other plant's rhizosphere. 2166 01:32:43,225 --> 01:32:44,285 Are you aware of any of those? 2167 01:32:44,875 --> 01:32:46,925 - Yeah, there is one that's jumping off the top of my head, 2168 01:32:47,165 --> 01:32:49,885 although I know there's, uh, you know, a lot of examples, 2169 01:32:50,025 --> 01:32:53,085 um, uh, black walnut, uh, trees for example, you know, 2170 01:32:53,105 --> 01:32:54,125 not specifically related 2171 01:32:54,185 --> 01:32:55,445 or cultivated for a, 2172 01:32:55,485 --> 01:32:57,085 a regular harvest like we're talking about 2173 01:32:57,085 --> 01:32:58,405 with cannabis or vegetables. 2174 01:32:58,745 --> 01:33:03,165 Um, but those, those guys, uh, have a, a brute exit it, um, 2175 01:33:03,235 --> 01:33:05,605 that is under the nature of allelopathy. 2176 01:33:05,825 --> 01:33:07,965 Uh, so they are actually able 2177 01:33:07,965 --> 01:33:09,605 to shoot a compound into the soil 2178 01:33:09,755 --> 01:33:12,605 that makes it pretty un inhospitable for anything 2179 01:33:12,605 --> 01:33:14,205 but it's offspring to grow. 2180 01:33:14,425 --> 01:33:17,085 Um, and to counter that, there's also plants, 2181 01:33:17,325 --> 01:33:19,845 I think certain trees as well that, you know, 2182 01:33:19,845 --> 01:33:22,485 don't want its own offspring to, to compete with the, 2183 01:33:22,505 --> 01:33:24,845 you know, the mom plant, uh, for the resources there. 2184 01:33:24,845 --> 01:33:26,685 So they'll, they'll send signals into the soil 2185 01:33:26,685 --> 01:33:29,765 that make it inhospitable for the plants of the same species 2186 01:33:29,865 --> 01:33:32,965 to grow, um, to try to, uh, you know, 2187 01:33:33,245 --> 01:33:35,205 preserve its own nutrients that might be in the soil. 2188 01:33:35,535 --> 01:33:37,525 - Right on. That's, that's, that's good to say. 2189 01:33:37,585 --> 01:33:39,925 And, and I'm gonna throw in my two, 2190 01:33:39,955 --> 01:33:42,645 even though some people like these, um, you know, 2191 01:33:42,685 --> 01:33:45,365 I always make sure that any, any plants that I consider 2192 01:33:45,545 --> 01:33:49,325 for a companion plant, um, does not give off floating 2193 01:33:49,855 --> 01:33:51,245 seeds like dandelions. 2194 01:33:51,965 --> 01:33:55,645 I personally really love, uh, pink dandelions and I, and I, 2195 01:33:55,665 --> 01:33:57,805 and I encourage them in my yard actually 2196 01:33:57,925 --> 01:33:59,565 'cause they look really trippy. 2197 01:34:00,025 --> 01:34:01,605 Um, and so, but, but 2198 01:34:01,825 --> 01:34:04,445 before they go to seed, um, you know, 2199 01:34:04,445 --> 01:34:06,845 I've got a different seed crop at a different property, but, 2200 01:34:06,905 --> 01:34:09,885 but like, I have to make sure, you know, I grab those 2201 01:34:09,885 --> 01:34:12,245 because I don't want all those like little fuzzy puff balls 2202 01:34:12,425 --> 01:34:14,405 in my resonance flowers. 2203 01:34:14,405 --> 01:34:16,365 Right? Right. That is definitely a party fowl. 2204 01:34:16,425 --> 01:34:20,725 And so any plant that gives off, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, 2205 01:34:20,785 --> 01:34:24,405 fluffy seeds that are going to be wind, uh, distributed, 2206 01:34:24,505 --> 01:34:25,605 you wanna be careful of those. 2207 01:34:26,265 --> 01:34:29,485 And then even though a lot of people like, uh, red clover, 2208 01:34:29,685 --> 01:34:32,165 I personally caution people from the red clover 2209 01:34:32,355 --> 01:34:35,045 because the red flower shoots up. 2210 01:34:35,185 --> 01:34:37,405 And if you don't grow monster plants, 2211 01:34:37,505 --> 01:34:40,405 if you're growing plants that are only, you know, three feet 2212 01:34:40,465 --> 01:34:43,205 and not 10 feet, uh, three feet, 2213 01:34:43,545 --> 01:34:46,245 the clover could totally grow up into 2214 01:34:46,385 --> 01:34:48,525 and start interacting with your resin. 2215 01:34:48,525 --> 01:34:49,685 And, and we don't want that either. 2216 01:34:49,985 --> 01:34:53,165 So the last question here is, is one that, uh, 2217 01:34:53,285 --> 01:34:57,165 I talk about sometimes on, um, on shaping fire, but, 2218 01:34:57,185 --> 01:35:00,205 but mostly it, the, the discussion has, 2219 01:35:00,345 --> 01:35:04,485 has happened on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel where, um, 2220 01:35:04,765 --> 01:35:09,525 I posted a, a video with a microbiologist that had, 2221 01:35:09,705 --> 01:35:13,365 was a, a specialist in in plant microbe interaction, 2222 01:35:13,795 --> 01:35:18,445 talking about how, um, the 24 hour light strategy 2223 01:35:19,025 --> 01:35:20,925 is, is bad for cannabis. 2224 01:35:21,745 --> 01:35:24,845 And, and I fully believe this to be the case 2225 01:35:25,435 --> 01:35:30,165 because, um, you know, uh, uh, photo synthetic plants 2226 01:35:30,875 --> 01:35:35,245 have a, have, uh, evolved processes that happen 2227 01:35:35,345 --> 01:35:36,685 during the dark cycle. 2228 01:35:37,305 --> 01:35:40,085 So, so if the plant is naturally growing outdoors, 2229 01:35:40,345 --> 01:35:42,245 it gets a day cycle, it gets a night cycle. 2230 01:35:42,265 --> 01:35:46,085 During the night cycle, the photosynthesizing, um, stops 2231 01:35:46,085 --> 01:35:47,525 and other processes happen. 2232 01:35:48,265 --> 01:35:51,685 And that's how you keep a strong rambunctious plant. 2233 01:35:52,385 --> 01:35:55,605 But we know from experiments, indoor plants, 2234 01:35:55,675 --> 01:35:57,365 when you're supplementing with light 2235 01:35:58,155 --> 01:36:02,285 that if you grow the plant at 24 hours, um, it's, 2236 01:36:02,315 --> 01:36:03,925 it's like giving the plant cocaine 2237 01:36:03,925 --> 01:36:06,845 or something like where the plants just go, go, go, go. 2238 01:36:07,005 --> 01:36:08,445 A constantly photosynthesize, 2239 01:36:08,445 --> 01:36:12,285 constantly process these sugars, go rah rah and, and like, 2240 01:36:12,385 --> 01:36:15,085 and so it will, it will make your, your, your, 2241 01:36:15,275 --> 01:36:16,725 your seed germinate faster. 2242 01:36:16,945 --> 01:36:19,125 It will make the young plant move faster. 2243 01:36:19,545 --> 01:36:23,125 It will bring it into be becoming, you know, a ready 2244 01:36:23,125 --> 01:36:24,685 to flower, teenage plant faster. 2245 01:36:25,425 --> 01:36:27,525 And then in the flowering, some people find 2246 01:36:27,525 --> 01:36:29,565 that they reach maturity at the flour faster 2247 01:36:29,985 --> 01:36:34,285 to such a degree that they can, you know, knock a week off 2248 01:36:34,285 --> 01:36:35,445 of flowering sometimes. 2249 01:36:35,945 --> 01:36:39,085 And they're all like, listen, if, if, if, if, if I do that 2250 01:36:39,085 --> 01:36:40,525 with every cycle my whole year, 2251 01:36:41,005 --> 01:36:43,645 I can actually squeeze in another cycle a year. 2252 01:36:43,645 --> 01:36:45,285 And that's real money. And so 2253 01:36:45,875 --> 01:36:49,405 because of that, the case for a 24 hour light cycle is made. 2254 01:36:50,305 --> 01:36:54,405 And I take every opportunity I can to try to teach 2255 01:36:54,555 --> 01:36:58,925 that the, the dark cycle is necessary for plant health. 2256 01:36:59,585 --> 01:37:02,285 And, um, you Michael, you know, you're, you're the frontline 2257 01:37:02,285 --> 01:37:05,725 of this debate as a microbiologist, you know, these cycles 2258 01:37:06,365 --> 01:37:07,765 intimately and, 2259 01:37:07,945 --> 01:37:10,205 and you know, what happens in the, you know, 2260 01:37:10,205 --> 01:37:11,805 what happens in the dark . 2261 01:37:11,805 --> 01:37:15,325 And so, so I'm gonna kind of throw myself up, um, hopefully, 2262 01:37:15,585 --> 01:37:18,085 um, hopefully I'm not wrong in your eyes, 2263 01:37:18,625 --> 01:37:21,125 but, um, I'd like to hear you speak to this idea 2264 01:37:21,185 --> 01:37:24,725 of the 24 hour light strategy and, um, 2265 01:37:24,945 --> 01:37:27,965 and how that, that might impact, uh, the plant. 2266 01:37:29,035 --> 01:37:31,045 - Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know, 2267 01:37:31,045 --> 01:37:32,765 that's gotta be one of the most, uh, 2268 01:37:32,765 --> 01:37:34,485 nutritionally expensive types 2269 01:37:34,485 --> 01:37:36,525 of cultivation practices I would think, 2270 01:37:36,905 --> 01:37:38,565 um, that could be done. 2271 01:37:38,785 --> 01:37:43,165 Uh, I, I wonder what types of, uh, you know, nutrient usage, 2272 01:37:43,785 --> 01:37:46,885 uh, rates people are going through if they're, uh, 2273 01:37:47,655 --> 01:37:49,845 doing this practice with 24 hour light cycles. 2274 01:37:49,905 --> 01:37:52,525 Um, 'cause I would imagine that with 24 hours 2275 01:37:52,545 --> 01:37:55,205 of daylight without any types of resting period, um, 2276 01:37:55,275 --> 01:37:57,525 that the plant is gonna be constantly, uh, 2277 01:37:57,525 --> 01:38:00,165 requiring extremely high concentrations of nitrogen, 2278 01:38:00,365 --> 01:38:02,005 phosphorus, and potassium, um, 2279 01:38:02,005 --> 01:38:04,285 essential processes like the kreb cycle happen, 2280 01:38:04,505 --> 01:38:05,605 uh, at nighttime. 2281 01:38:06,145 --> 01:38:10,285 Um, plants also do these, um, things called like gata 2282 01:38:10,335 --> 01:38:12,925 where there might be air bubbles in the plant vascular 2283 01:38:12,945 --> 01:38:14,565 tissue, which can be detrimental. 2284 01:38:14,945 --> 01:38:17,165 Um, but at nighttime they can push those out. 2285 01:38:17,465 --> 01:38:19,165 Um, you know, they also close their stem 2286 01:38:19,705 --> 01:38:23,485 and, uh, don't evaporate the water out 2287 01:38:23,485 --> 01:38:24,965 of their bodies as as quickly. 2288 01:38:25,185 --> 01:38:29,885 So I think primarily the, um, the benefit 2289 01:38:29,985 --> 01:38:32,805 to get another cycle might be missed by the amount 2290 01:38:32,805 --> 01:38:34,885 of nutrients somebody might need from trying 2291 01:38:34,885 --> 01:38:38,605 to maintain the nutritional needs of the cannabis plant, uh, 2292 01:38:38,665 --> 01:38:40,845 by blasting them with 24 hours of light, right? 2293 01:38:40,865 --> 01:38:42,725 If you're gonna be, um, you know, 2294 01:38:42,725 --> 01:38:44,125 basically giving your plants cocaine 2295 01:38:44,125 --> 01:38:45,845 and keeping them at high energy, high growth, 2296 01:38:46,205 --> 01:38:47,565 optimal fast growth rates 2297 01:38:47,565 --> 01:38:49,165 and developments, there's gonna be a lot 2298 01:38:49,165 --> 01:38:50,925 of energy spent for that. 2299 01:38:51,265 --> 01:38:53,605 Um, and in order for them, for them to kind of account for 2300 01:38:53,605 --> 01:38:55,125 that deficit, there needs to be tons 2301 01:38:55,125 --> 01:38:57,125 and tons of available nutrient inputs there. 2302 01:38:57,705 --> 01:39:01,005 Um, and I, I don't know that one other cycle might be, uh, 2303 01:39:01,165 --> 01:39:03,285 beneficial enough to, to, to have 2304 01:39:03,285 --> 01:39:04,485 to add that much more verigation 2305 01:39:05,065 --> 01:39:06,405 - In, in my experience, the people 2306 01:39:06,465 --> 01:39:09,325 who are defending the 24 hour light cycle are, 2307 01:39:09,345 --> 01:39:11,685 are usually people that are using, you know, 2308 01:39:12,265 --> 01:39:14,205 two part bottled salt fertilizers, 2309 01:39:14,265 --> 01:39:17,245 and so they're kind of like force feeding the plants, uh, 2310 01:39:17,245 --> 01:39:18,245 nutrition anyway. 2311 01:39:18,865 --> 01:39:22,165 And, uh, you know, it's, it's pretty rare to find a, 2312 01:39:22,345 --> 01:39:24,525 you know, a bottled nutrients grower 2313 01:39:24,525 --> 01:39:26,645 who isn't overfeeding anyway, 2314 01:39:26,645 --> 01:39:29,325 because if some is good, more is better. 2315 01:39:29,325 --> 01:39:30,685 Right? Right. And so, 2316 01:39:30,825 --> 01:39:32,445 and so that, that's actually the answer 2317 01:39:32,445 --> 01:39:35,045 that I get online when discussing this with, with these, 2318 01:39:35,045 --> 01:39:37,165 these cultivators are at that all, well, 2319 01:39:37,165 --> 01:39:39,965 if it just makes the plant more hungry for more nutrition, 2320 01:39:39,965 --> 01:39:41,125 I'll just pour more in. 2321 01:39:41,305 --> 01:39:43,605 And I'm like, ah, that's not really how it works. 2322 01:39:44,225 --> 01:39:47,685 Um, but, um, for folks who aren't familiar with it, 2323 01:39:47,705 --> 01:39:49,125 you mentioned that the Krebs cycle 2324 01:39:49,125 --> 01:39:50,525 happens in the dark period. 2325 01:39:50,525 --> 01:39:52,085 Will you, will you explain what that is? 2326 01:39:53,515 --> 01:39:56,325 - Well, the, um, the plant starts to respire 2327 01:39:56,325 --> 01:39:58,285 so it stops using the light, um, 2328 01:39:58,345 --> 01:40:00,725 or the photons from the sunlight or your LEDs 2329 01:40:00,725 --> 01:40:03,645 or any types of lighting you have as, um, kind 2330 01:40:03,645 --> 01:40:05,965 of like the building blocks to metabolism. 2331 01:40:06,425 --> 01:40:09,125 Um, and it starts to respir basically it's getting its 2332 01:40:09,125 --> 01:40:11,285 energy from off-gassing, uh, things 2333 01:40:11,285 --> 01:40:12,725 that might be in the there as opposed 2334 01:40:12,725 --> 01:40:15,445 to using the light energy to, um, kind 2335 01:40:15,445 --> 01:40:18,525 of make more chloroplast and, and things along those lines. 2336 01:40:19,185 --> 01:40:21,965 - So when I'm, when I'm talking about, uh, this with folks 2337 01:40:22,145 --> 01:40:24,165 who, who are very, very, um, 2338 01:40:26,135 --> 01:40:30,305 into the 24 hour light strategy, um, they come back to me 2339 01:40:30,305 --> 01:40:32,025 and they're like, they're like, well, you're telling me I 2340 01:40:32,025 --> 01:40:34,425 can't do this, but I do this all the time and I get plants 2341 01:40:34,445 --> 01:40:36,745 and I smoke 'em, and I get high and it's great. 2342 01:40:37,445 --> 01:40:41,865 And, and, and to the best of my scientific knowledge, I say 2343 01:40:41,985 --> 01:40:45,625 to 'em, I say, yeah, but you're, you're getting a plant 2344 01:40:45,625 --> 01:40:47,945 that isn't the best plant you could have grown. 2345 01:40:48,925 --> 01:40:52,825 Um, if you, if you need fast, cheap 2346 01:40:53,885 --> 01:40:57,725 styrofoam tasting flour quickly, okay, that, 2347 01:40:57,755 --> 01:41:00,925 that might be an appropriate strategy to consider. 2348 01:41:01,345 --> 01:41:04,845 But since most of us are looking for a thriving plant, 2349 01:41:05,055 --> 01:41:08,685 which, um, you know, also provides 2350 01:41:09,475 --> 01:41:13,325 high quality terpenes that just like engage us 2351 01:41:13,465 --> 01:41:14,645 and give us a better high 2352 01:41:15,185 --> 01:41:18,845 and also creates pest resistance, it seems to me 2353 01:41:19,035 --> 01:41:22,325 that the 24 hour lifecycle will slowly 2354 01:41:22,545 --> 01:41:25,805 but surely degrade a cannabis plant throughout its 2355 01:41:25,805 --> 01:41:27,125 entire lifecycle. 2356 01:41:27,475 --> 01:41:28,965 What, what are your thoughts about that? 2357 01:41:29,715 --> 01:41:31,565 Like, is the, is the, is the, is the life 2358 01:41:31,585 --> 01:41:34,205 of the cannabis plant so short where over 2359 01:41:34,575 --> 01:41:35,765 where, over that lifecycle? 2360 01:41:35,865 --> 01:41:39,685 It doesn't matter if we starve the soil. 2361 01:41:40,965 --> 01:41:44,165 - I, I kind of am thinking that I, it does matter, you know, 2362 01:41:44,225 --> 01:41:46,605 uh, the cannabis plant lifecycle is a lot longer to, 2363 01:41:46,745 --> 01:41:48,885 to maturation and harvest than a lot 2364 01:41:48,885 --> 01:41:50,365 of other different crops that are kind 2365 01:41:50,365 --> 01:41:51,645 of following the school of thought. 2366 01:41:51,745 --> 01:41:55,365 And I think that, um, you know, speculatively, there's a lot 2367 01:41:55,365 --> 01:41:58,085 of, uh, things that happen that are beneficial 2368 01:41:58,085 --> 01:42:00,605 to the plant vascular system during the rest period. 2369 01:42:01,065 --> 01:42:04,285 Um, pushing those air bubbles out, closing those ada, uh, 2370 01:42:04,465 --> 01:42:06,085 and things along those lines that 2371 01:42:06,805 --> 01:42:09,725 I would imagine play a role in the, the synthesis 2372 01:42:09,725 --> 01:42:11,005 of cannabinoids, terpenoids, 2373 01:42:11,005 --> 01:42:12,445 and other secondary metabolites. 2374 01:42:12,905 --> 01:42:15,965 Um, so I think, yeah, it would be interesting 2375 01:42:15,965 --> 01:42:19,405 to do a side-by-side with the same kind of cultivar or, 2376 01:42:19,425 --> 01:42:22,525 or strain of, of cannabis, uh, you know, 2377 01:42:22,525 --> 01:42:26,085 in a 24 hour cycle versus a an 18 six followed by a 1212. 2378 01:42:26,585 --> 01:42:28,765 Um, and then the other thing that I wanted to mention, uh, 2379 01:42:28,785 --> 01:42:30,605 you were talking about kind of the indoor growers 2380 01:42:30,605 --> 01:42:31,645 and having those, you know, two 2381 01:42:31,645 --> 01:42:33,085 to one salts readily available 2382 01:42:33,225 --> 01:42:34,965 and probably slightly over applied. 2383 01:42:35,425 --> 01:42:38,365 Um, it, it would be cool to, to get to a point to 2384 01:42:38,365 --> 01:42:40,245 where we can kind of start to supplement, uh, 2385 01:42:40,245 --> 01:42:42,005 those conventional salt based fertilizers 2386 01:42:42,005 --> 01:42:43,165 with more organic things. 2387 01:42:43,705 --> 01:42:45,565 Um, and maybe even get to the point, uh, 2388 01:42:45,565 --> 01:42:48,605 and this is from Dr. James White, the Oph Fiji, uh, 2389 01:42:48,885 --> 01:42:52,485 scientist, um, using those salts that are easily slurped up 2390 01:42:52,485 --> 01:42:55,565 and, and, you know, immediately used in, in building blocks 2391 01:42:55,565 --> 01:42:57,365 of the plant body, um, kind of 2392 01:42:57,365 --> 01:42:59,605 as like corrective uh, treatments. 2393 01:42:59,625 --> 01:43:01,565 And you notice the deficiency, you apply a salt, 2394 01:43:01,585 --> 01:43:05,365 and then you start to kind of balance both your, your salt 2395 01:43:05,425 --> 01:43:07,765 and your organic base of nutrition inputs. 2396 01:43:07,785 --> 01:43:09,805 Not only will that benefit the plant, um, 2397 01:43:09,945 --> 01:43:11,925 but also same thing with the microbes. 2398 01:43:11,985 --> 01:43:15,045 Um, there's been studies showing the same exact, you know, 2399 01:43:15,105 --> 01:43:18,285 strain of, of cannabis growing in living soil versus growing 2400 01:43:18,345 --> 01:43:21,245 in, uh, hydroponics with biologicals. 2401 01:43:21,245 --> 01:43:23,645 And the terpene and cannabinoid profiles are, you know, 2402 01:43:23,645 --> 01:43:25,085 statistically different from one another. 2403 01:43:25,185 --> 01:43:28,085 And I think a lot of that has to do with, uh, the terroir 2404 01:43:28,085 --> 01:43:30,765 or the terroir of, of the cannabis plant. Yeah. 2405 01:43:31,755 --> 01:43:35,005 - Yeah. The idea of supplementing with, uh, with, um, 2406 01:43:35,315 --> 01:43:37,925 salt on its face I'm prejudice against, 2407 01:43:38,105 --> 01:43:40,445 but as a citizen scientist, I want 2408 01:43:40,445 --> 01:43:41,565 to learn more, you know what I mean? 2409 01:43:41,785 --> 01:43:43,605 - So Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 2410 01:43:43,605 --> 01:43:46,965 - Yeah. So anyway, well, well thank you for, for, uh, 2411 01:43:46,965 --> 01:43:48,285 diving into that topic for me. 2412 01:43:48,345 --> 01:43:51,045 Um, it, it, it, it's clearly something that I, 2413 01:43:51,045 --> 01:43:52,045 I am passionate about 2414 01:43:52,105 --> 01:43:54,605 and I get argued with sometimes . 2415 01:43:54,605 --> 01:43:56,285 And so anytime I, you know, 2416 01:43:56,595 --> 01:44:00,045 when I get a microbiologist like you willing to talk 2417 01:44:00,045 --> 01:44:01,805 to me about it, I always bang 2418 01:44:01,805 --> 01:44:03,325 that drum. So thank you, . 2419 01:44:04,035 --> 01:44:05,045 - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 2420 01:44:05,125 --> 01:44:07,085 I guess more on the microbe side, I think just like the, 2421 01:44:07,105 --> 01:44:08,565 the soil temperatures do cool 2422 01:44:08,625 --> 01:44:10,325 or the roots temp, the root zone rises 2423 01:44:10,325 --> 01:44:11,885 for temperatures will also cool in the dark. 2424 01:44:11,905 --> 01:44:14,045 So kind of factoring in the microbiome, um, 2425 01:44:14,045 --> 01:44:15,925 that's just allowing more environmental changes 2426 01:44:15,985 --> 01:44:17,205 to maintain different diversity 2427 01:44:17,345 --> 01:44:20,165 and things like that, um, with the, the darkness period, 2428 01:44:20,165 --> 01:44:22,405 because, you know, a grow room will cool off 10 degrees when 2429 01:44:22,405 --> 01:44:23,565 the lights are off and things like that. 2430 01:44:24,035 --> 01:44:25,685 - Yeah, right on. Yeah. And I'm sure there's different 2431 01:44:25,685 --> 01:44:28,205 cycles that need a cooler temperature to happen. 2432 01:44:28,675 --> 01:44:30,125 - Yeah. But I'm interested in, in kind 2433 01:44:30,125 --> 01:44:32,525 of learning more about the effects, uh, in the microbiome, 2434 01:44:32,705 --> 01:44:35,005 you know, with this 24 hour versus getting 2435 01:44:35,005 --> 01:44:36,165 that rest period that plants, 2436 01:44:36,225 --> 01:44:37,285 you know, were evolved to have. 2437 01:44:37,475 --> 01:44:40,285 - Yeah. So. Awesome. Well, Michael, we are here at the end. 2438 01:44:40,385 --> 01:44:43,165 Um, thank you so much for sharing your expertise 2439 01:44:43,305 --> 01:44:46,645 and experience and, and time and good cheer with us. 2440 01:44:46,785 --> 01:44:48,965 Um, uh, I've really enjoyed our discussion 2441 01:44:49,065 --> 01:44:53,365 and, um, you know, it, it, I I, I didn't expect, uh, uh, 2442 01:44:53,625 --> 01:44:55,765 so much, so many times for us to come back 2443 01:44:55,765 --> 01:44:59,685 to the answer being diverse microbe ts, but, 2444 01:44:59,745 --> 01:45:01,445 but really, you know, the, 2445 01:45:01,445 --> 01:45:03,765 the more I get into regenerative growing 2446 01:45:04,025 --> 01:45:07,725 and really, uh, growing in a way that's, uh, responds 2447 01:45:07,725 --> 01:45:11,405 to nature, the more I realized that, um, 2448 01:45:11,985 --> 01:45:16,445 the farmer's only job is to create, um, 2449 01:45:16,755 --> 01:45:20,805 rich nutri nutritive, biologically diverse soil. 2450 01:45:21,105 --> 01:45:23,605 And, and so you're always gonna come back to tea. 2451 01:45:24,225 --> 01:45:26,245 So, so thank you very much for being here 2452 01:45:26,245 --> 01:45:28,245 and for, for, you know, sharing what you know. 2453 01:45:29,405 --> 01:45:31,005 - Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Shang. Go. 2454 01:45:31,145 --> 01:45:32,725 It, uh, it was a great conversation 2455 01:45:32,725 --> 01:45:34,565 and I'm really grateful to be able to kind of just, 2456 01:45:34,585 --> 01:45:36,165 you know, talk about this stuff with somebody else. 2457 01:45:36,685 --> 01:45:37,885 - Excellent. Yeah, me too. It's, it's nice 2458 01:45:37,885 --> 01:45:38,965 to find another narrative for this 2459 01:45:38,965 --> 01:45:40,205 stuff, so thank you. Totally. 2460 01:45:40,435 --> 01:45:41,525 - Yeah, - Right on. 2461 01:45:41,705 --> 01:45:44,605 So, um, if you want to reach out to, uh, Michael 2462 01:45:44,785 --> 01:45:47,245 or no more what's, he's more of what he's up to, 2463 01:45:47,245 --> 01:45:48,605 there are two places to do that. 2464 01:45:49,065 --> 01:45:51,125 Um, you can follow Michael Delegue, 2465 01:45:51,125 --> 01:45:55,965 that's D-I-L-E-G-G-E on LinkedIn, where he posts 2466 01:45:55,965 --> 01:45:57,525 what he's up to in his latest research. 2467 01:45:58,065 --> 01:46:02,725 And also, um, uh, the company where he is a director 2468 01:46:02,725 --> 01:46:05,925 of microbiology is Implo Biosciences, 2469 01:46:06,225 --> 01:46:09,045 and you can find out what they're up to at implo 2470 01:46:09,805 --> 01:46:13,085 I-M-P-E-L-L-O bio.com. 2471 01:46:13,905 --> 01:46:16,005 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast 2472 01:46:16,185 --> 01:46:18,805 and subscribe to the show@shapingfire.com 2473 01:46:18,945 --> 01:46:20,645 and wherever you get your podcasts. 2474 01:46:20,985 --> 01:46:23,205 If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you 2475 01:46:23,205 --> 01:46:24,685 would leave a positive review of the podcast. 2476 01:46:25,205 --> 01:46:28,205 Wherever you download your view will help others find the 2477 01:46:28,205 --> 01:46:29,565 show so they can enjoy it too. 2478 01:46:30,145 --> 01:46:32,445 On the Shaping Fire website, you can also subscribe 2479 01:46:32,465 --> 01:46:35,205 to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis news 2480 01:46:35,355 --> 01:46:39,285 exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. 2481 01:46:39,285 --> 01:46:41,925 You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. 2482 01:46:42,505 --> 01:46:45,485 Be sure to follow on Instagram For all original content not 2483 01:46:45,485 --> 01:46:48,205 found on the podcast that's at Shaping Fire 2484 01:46:48,305 --> 01:46:51,245 and at shang los on Instagram, be sure 2485 01:46:51,245 --> 01:46:53,045 to check out the Shaping Fire YouTube channel 2486 01:46:53,065 --> 01:46:55,925 for exclusive interviews, farm tours, and cannabis lectures. 2487 01:46:56,475 --> 01:46:58,765 Does your company wanna reach our national audience 2488 01:46:58,765 --> 01:47:00,005 of cannabis enthusiasts? 2489 01:47:00,415 --> 01:47:03,485 Email hotspot@shapingfire.com to find out how. 2490 01:47:03,745 --> 01:47:05,285 Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. 2491 01:47:05,715 --> 01:47:07,765 I've been your host, Shang Los.