- Sometimes old things hold a lot of value.
It is true that I like fancy hotel rooms,
but honestly, I get the best sleep
sleeping at my friend's Old Beach Cabin
that still has quilts and Afghans that his grandmother
and probably his great-grandmother, made the cabin smells
of old wood sea water
and late loud nights of laughing, playing board games
and euchre and quiet early morning scaring at the crashing
surf while the others are still asleep.
And it is also true.
I am grateful for the prescriptions
that help my autoimmune issues,
but honestly, I have gotten far more lifelong health from
Paul Pitchfords book, healing with Whole Foods Herbalists
and traditional nutritionists know a lot that is lost
to Modern Medicine.
Today's episode is about slowing down
and realizing the good to be found in the natural past, so
that maybe we can embrace it in our hectic present.
If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation
and technique efficiently
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This month's giveaway from Dyna Mic Michal Inoculate is a
little bit different than how we normally do it.
The first 200 people
to follow the link on the Shaping Fire Instagram profile,
or on the Shaping Fire website page for this episode
and fill out the form on the dynami website,
will receive a free 20 gram package of Dyna O.
You don't even have to pay for shipping.
I have used Dynami o for five seasons now,
and it clearly drastically improves root growth.
Young plants grow faster and more efficiently.
New soil matures more swiftly,
Michal Networks expand and thicken.
Welcome to episode 111.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and I am your host, Shang Los.
My guest today is Jeff Nordal, better known on Instagram
as Jade Nectar.
Jeff has been studying cannabis natural medicine
and psychedelics since his teens.
He has a background as an early internet entrepreneur,
but became seriously ill in his thirties only
to find out he had contracted Lyme disease.
Conventional medicine held no solutions for him.
Jeff turned to cannabis medicine in his home of Santa Cruz
and started getting results.
He became an expert on the acid form of cannabinoids
and cannabis leaf juicing,
and started a local medical collective
to get it in the hands of patients.
Jeff Nordal now holds 11 patents for using cannabis as food.
Though he doesn't like patents
and got them defensively so no one could ever tell him
to stop juicing cannabis leaves for patients.
He's presently building out the Jade Grove Farm
and Wellness Center deep in the Santa Cruz mountains.
He also has grown more land race varieties
of cannabis than anyone I've ever met during the first set.
Today we will discuss the difference between land, race,
wild, feral heritage, and hybrid varieties of cannabis.
In the second set, we will learn about the cultivation
demands of land races, hot and cold, adapted land races,
and hear about some of the more exotic morphology
and terpene profiles Jeff has come across.
And during the third set, we'll explore breeding
with land races and finish the episode with a discussion
of land race preservation.
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Jeff.
- Hey, thanks. Thanks
for having me. It's so great. Excited to
- Be here.
Yeah, it's really great to have you here.
You know, um, uh,
ever since I came across your Jade Nectar profile on
Instagram and started, uh, watching your tours
of all the land races in your garden, um, you know, I I,
I immediately kind of became a fanboy, I must say,
just watching your videos, I'm like, oh, look at that plant.
And Oh, look at that plant.
And it was, it was like, um, the same reason I love going
through botanical gardens, right?
It's just once you fall in love with plants, you know,
I started with the cannabis plant,
but then that love kind of got became all plants.
So to be able to see lots of varieties of a plant together,
it's, it's really like nerdy nature fun
for people like us who cultivate Oh yeah.
But then to see your Instagram where it's just one
after another and they look different in the colors
and, you know, you, you've got a bit of teach
and vibes about it, you know, you kind
of tell us about the plant and everything.
And so, um, I, so I just started as a fan and a follower.
And then after I went through enough
of your videos over time, I'm all like, oh, dude, I think,
I think, I think this would make a really great episode.
So I'm really grateful that, that you, uh,
you accepted my invitation
to come on the show. So thanks for that.
- Well, cool. And, uh, yeah, if you're enjoying it
through the video, , just through the inner webs, uh,
yeah, you should come out in person sometimes, .
- Well, it doesn't, it doesn't
- Have a full experience. Well, thank
- You.
It doesn't take much of encouragement
to get me to come to Santa Cruz.
It's one of my favorite places in the world, . So.
Alright, man. Well, let's get right into it.
You know, um, when people talk about land races, people use
that word kind of like a, a bucket, right?
Because, um, a lot of people don't understand that idea
of land race or, or where that definition begins or ends.
And then it, then it starts to get mixed in
with other words, like, you know, like heritage and heirloom
and, and, you know, varieties.
And, and so the, the definition is, is a bit muddied.
So, so let's, let's kind of talk around this idea, um, and,
and tease out some of the interesting meanings,
especially somebody like you who,
who spends their whole time, you know,
in the land race world, I, I can imagine
that you would have a different take on it.
So, so yeah. So, so why don't we just go ahead
and start with like the word land race and,
and why don't you get us started there?
- Yeah, yeah. So, uh, land, race,
and I had to do my own research as well.
Um, and, uh, yeah, it, it is interesting
that even different industries
and such have different definitions for what landrace is.
But it, it turns out that, uh, landrace,
I believe I should look this up,
but I think it's a German word for land, Ross, I think.
So that means, uh,
and that translates into English, like country breed.
So, uh, right off the bat, land raise is domestic.
These are domesticated, uh, varieties,
but you can also have land raise dogs, land raise pigs,
chickens, cucumbers, melons.
Um, so it's nothing specific to cannabis whatsoever.
It has to do with, uh, just agriculture
or animal, um, uh, breeding.
And, and what, but what it is
and why land races are unique is
they're actually tied to a specific region.
Um, so there's this interplay between, uh,
so let's say a cannabis plant shows up in, um, some
area, let's say in, I don't know, Thailand.
Um, so there you've got a wet tropical environment,
uh, and,
and the people who want to grow the cannabis,
there are going to be now, uh, breeding with,
with their cannabis, uh,
taking cues from the environment over time.
So let's say they grow a hundred plants, um,
but 50%, if they were, let's say, a, a like an Afghan,
our arid environment, uh, genetic that, that came
to this village in Thailand, , you know,
hundreds if not thousands of years ago, probably half
of 'em would mold because they're not, uh, adapted for, uh,
all that moisture and humidity.
Uh, but the humans would start picking, you know,
and taking the seeds from the plants that actually
fared pretty well.
Um, so now there's human selection going on
to find those, uh, seeds
or those genetics that actually
thrive in their local environment.
Um, so once that gets established as far as something
that can actually survive
and make it to the finish line, produce, you know,
flowers without melting down, uh,
now the humans might start selecting more for effects.
say, I like a really,
or like, those, that culture
may actually appreciate a very energizing
electric psychedelic, uh, effect in their cannabis.
So then they start selecting, uh, for that.
So now you're starting to infuse
cultural values,
and cultural utility into this plant, while also, uh,
uh, selecting for things that actually thrive, um, in
that environment.
Uh, so that's, that's kind of the interplay with, uh,
for land raise is it happens over time with, uh,
pressures from the environment and also, uh, the aesthetic
and, uh, desire
and utility of the humans who are growing them and be,
and if these are isolated from all other cannabis plants,
uh, you can imagine over, you know, generation, generation,
50 generations, a hundred generations now,
you're gonna have a very unique, uh, cannabis variety
that's unique just to that particular, let's say village.
- Um, you know, you know, Jeff, I think I'm gonna set you up
for your next definition
because, um, you know,
you've already surprised me the definition
of land race already is not what I thought it was going
to be because, um, I was under the impression
that land races were untouched by humans that we had, like,
as soon as you said domesticated, I like my,
my eyebrow goes up. 'cause I'm like, domesticated.
- Oh, no, no, no, this - Is, yeah.
- And so this is one of the biggest, biggest, uh, I,
I don't know where the genesis of this. Am I
- Talking about wild versus land?
Race?
- You're talking about wild or feral? Okay. Uh, yeah.
So, so land race is a hundred
percent influenced by humans.
These are domestic. So,
so if we wanna start talking analogies here, start thinking,
um, uh, as far as dog breeds.
So, uh, if anyone's familiar with, let's say,
Anatolian Shepherds
or kle dogs, these are, uh, these big, uh, sheep, uh,
protector guard dogs that are used in,
in the Anatolian Mountains in Turkey.
And they require a very large, uh, dog
to fight off wolves and bears.
Uh, they need to be very independent.
Uh, they actually go out with the sheep without any humans,
and we'll just watch after the sheep, but also go and hunt
and provide food for themselves.
Um, but the Anatolia Shepherds,
it's not a specific, uh, standard breed that, you know,
has to be 16 inches from tail to snout
or any of these standard breed dimensions, uh,
within the Anatolian Shepherd or Kle, uh, type of dog.
Uh, you actually get all different color types,
all different, uh, variations, uh, and such, but they're,
but at the same time, they're similar
and they perform a utility, which is guarding sheep
and being independent
and also, uh, being able to handle the environment.
So they have a really nice double coat
that keeps them insulated in the winter.
But, uh, cool. In the summer.
Um, so, so that's an Anatolian shepherd.
You also have things like huskies, uh, Eskimo dogs.
You'll see there's tons of variants in those dogs, uh,
between each one.
So you've got a lot of genetic diversity,
but it's also bred by humans
to pull dog sleds.
Uh, but there's no, uh, you know,
like Kennel Club sitting there going
and measuring the dogs for specific traits, it's, and,
and so tho those are actually considered land raised dogs,
and you can apply the same thing to carrots,
cucumbers, pigs, .
Uh, so
- I, I find it very interesting that a now, now in my head,
um, a, a cultural use
and, uh, human intention is now part
of the land race definition for me.
Oh, absolutely. And that's a, and that's a surprise for me.
So, so let's, let's move forward and, and,
and have you talk a little bit about the, the feral
and wild type, which is what is in my head as land race.
- Okay. And here's another thing.
This is, um, and by the way, I have read websites,
cannabis websites that just kind
of become these echo chambers that just
poach other information.
Just keep repeating the same fallacy Yeah. Over and over.
And for some reason, there are cannabis websites
that do define land race as wild,
untouched by humans. And
- That is .
Well, we all know that most of the cannabis websites
are garbage anyway.
They're just Yeah. People trying to throw up content
so they can sell advertising, you know? Well,
- So, so right off the bat, just Landrace is fully domestic.
Just do a Google search of the definition of landrace,
and you'll find out the first thing it says is it's
a domestic brief.
- Also, honestly, even more important than that,
like you're friends with Rob Clark, right?
So your definitions are bounced off of Rob Clark, the God
of cannabis genetics.
So like, I'm gonna go with what you're gonna say more than
what I'm gonna read just about anywhere
- Else.
Okay. So here's, here's another thing.
And I don't want to get in like pissing matches with people
who say, oh no, it's, it's wild cannabis and such.
So I just went, luckily, I'm, I'm very fortunate
and honored to have, um, uh, developed a bit of a relation
with, uh, Rob Clark.
And he came out and visited, he's been out
to our farm now, uh, three times.
Um, just no particular agenda.
We just like hanging out , you know,
we got 300 land race varieties all growing
in the same garden, so it's kind of just sort
of wonderland, uh, for folks. Yeah,
- It's, it's a cannabis amusement park, is what it is. It
- Really, it's stoner fantasy land.
Um, and it's just, so anyway, he was
kind enough to also, uh, send an email
with his, uh, takes on these,
these definitions just to clear things up.
And, uh, and yeah, I'll, if, if Okay, not
to be super boring, I'll just read a few sentences from
from his actual email.
I hope this, he said it's okay to share this , but
- Yeah, sure.
So long as they're not too long, we'll go ahead and hit
- It.
Yeah, no, no, but right off the bat,
land races are essentially locally adapted plant
and animal varieties that in that evolve in response
to natural environmental selective pressures in tandem
with simple human selection
for favorable characteristics without formal breeding.
So, um, and it says, all domestic plants
and animals originate from wild pop populations evolving
naturally, once humans entered the scene,
the first steps towards land race evolution began.
So, so there you go.
So it's not, it's not a, uh,
just keeping one line of, of breeding a particular genetic
for just, you know, like that ultimate, um, seed or clone.
Uh, it's not a narrow breeding project, it's a, it,
it's a big, large, wide sort of open pollination,
usually type breeding project.
But then selecting, most likely
what would happen is then you go
and select the seeds from the plants that finished the best
out of, let's say a whole patch, like a large field
of cannabis, and then, uh, the ones
that made it to the finish line.
And then when you sample 'em, they're awesome.
And you go, ah, I want
to grow the seeds from this plant next year .
So that, that way the human is now
very much influencing and selecting for their traits.
So that, that is the land race.
And then the other part that's really important is, uh,
is that they're unique to that region
because now they've been isolated in
that physical geographic region for so long
that they're now like totally unique compared to, uh,
you know, land races in other parts of the world. Right
- On.
So, so we've established land race. Good.
Let's move forward a little bit. Yeah.
Now, are, are wild and feral synonymous,
or are those individual ideas too?
- Uh, no. And we're good.
And if, as far as running the analogy, the dog analogy, uh,
what, what feral is, is it's domestic cannabis
that has escaped the farm,
and now it's off growing wild,
but it's not actually the true wild
original cannabis variety. So, uh, it's
- Like post farm wild.
- Yeah. So this would be like, uh, in Australia,
if we're doing our dog analogy here,
this would be the dingo, right?
So the dingoes were in a domestic dog
that was introduced into Australia, I think,
like 4,000 years ago or so.
And then it went totally feral.
Now it's actually part of the ecosystem in Australia,
but it was never actually a wild naturally occurring wolf.
Um, it was, it was actually,
- It was never indigenous. It was brought in
- Correct.
And it was a domestic dog that then went, uh, feral
and now is part of that environment.
So cannabis is very adaptable and such.
So if it escapes the farm,
and by the way, in the Midwest in the US we still have, uh,
ditch weeded that's escaped hemp from the hemp farms,
you know, the early 19 hundreds Mm-Hmm.
. And so that's still growing.
But when, when a plant goes feral, it's now doesn't have
that human, uh, infusion
or intention going on with it.
So now it's, now it's just the plant doing its thing with,
its only motivation is to keep making more seed.
Mm-Hmm, . So most likely when you have feral
populations, um, the taste, the potency
of THC or whatever cannabinoid you're going for is the,
you know, the plant doesn't even care about that .
It's just wants to make seed.
So now you're gonna get, you know, a hardier more adaptive
for survival and reproducing plant for the cannabis plant.
But, uh, probably the desirable human traits are gonna start
fading on those, uh, feral populations. Um, right on.
- I, I identify with feral.
I think I'm falling further and further out
of normative society as well.
.
- Yeah. So, um, yeah, exactly.
So if, if you went full off the grid and, uh, went
and lived in a hutt or a cave out in the middle of the night
and started raising a family and such like that, yeah. You,
- That would be the full embrace of it.
- You'd be then more adapted for hunting and gathering
and not, uh, sitting,
working computer, social media computer. Yeah. Yeah.
- Alright, so let's contract contrast then that to wild,
which would be the, which would probably be a plant that is,
uh, indigenous to that biosphere,
but has never been domesticated and farmed.
- Exactly. And the thing is, is most likely, so,
and again, this is, uh, from Robert Clark, who also has, uh,
sort of combined all of the cannabis research.
Uh, he's got a great book, um,
I think it's called Ethno Botany Cannabis.
Ethno Botany. Mm-Hmm. , uh, that, yeah,
it goes actually.
It's very information dense. So
- Yeah, it's a heavy duty read.
- Yeah, yeah. It's not just a casual, uh, sit
by the fire kind of thing.
Uh, but it is a really, really, really a great resource
for going and, and what they've done is just tracked
and basically agree with all these other, um, uh, botanists
and scientists and ethnobotanists who've tracked the
original origin of cannabis seems to come from
what's now geographically in China.
Uh, and that is where the
original wild cannabis seemed to originate from.
But because cannabis, domestic cannabis
was cultivated and used for 10,000 plus years in
that same area, it's highly unlikely
that the original wild cannabis didn't get
crossed with domestic cannabis at some point.
Mm-Hmm. . So to differentiate the true wild
origin cannabis from, uh, feral domestic cannabis,
uh, it, it's kind of almost impossible to do that.
And most likely, uh, it went extinct through hybridization
with other, uh,
domestic varieties over the past 10,000 years.
Right. On. So most,
most likely the original wild cannabis no longer exists.
- Alright, so then the cap off this line of definitions,
why don't we finish off with poly hybrid
and then we'll start talking about morphology.
- Oh, okay. And then one other one that's part of this is,
uh, also heirloom or heritage varieties.
Alright, good. Good. So,
and that's more, uh, those would be
specific breeding projects a lot of times sort of like, uh,
we've got it going on in California,
especially up in Humboldt and Mendocino and such.
Um, actually was just reading about some of these, uh,
the Huckleberry Hill Farms Mm-Hmm.
, by the way.
I got the sample some of their, uh, white thorn rose, uh,
which I guess is getting a lot of attention right now.
And that was, that is the only like cannabis
from a dispensary, uh,
that I've sampled in the last few years.
That was like, wow, that's really, that took me back
to like Grateful Dead parking lot
kind Bud old school.
Really, really, really beautiful cannabis.
So, um, but I looked into their story and such,
and I think a lot somewhat in that lineage.
He calls it, uh, like moms weed.
So that would be like heirlooms where families
actually have worked and developed their own, you know,
strain and,
and pass that down through the generations to like family
and friends and such like that.
So that's like an heirloom right there, where it's,
where it's being passed through
- That just warms my heart.
Just even thinking about looking at the, at the genetic line
and, and seeing mom's weeded.
Like that is the heart of cannabis
and like the human relationship with the plant, right.
When it's like, it's like pre the names, pre the, the,
you know, categories for sale and,
and pre-competition between people.
It's just, yeah, this was,
this was our family's particular strain that we loved
and we had at our holidays.
Yeah. I think, I think that's a beautiful thing.
So, all right, so moms with heirloom.
- Yeah. So that's, that's kind of more like heirloom
where it's being passed, you know,
just like heirloom furniture and such.
Sure. You're passing it through generations and then, uh,
but then heritage strains with follow that same,
uh, pattern or,
or sort of be in that same category only
that might be more widely, uh, distributed.
So, and a lot of times, uh, heritage or
or heirlooms exist only in, uh, clone Mm-Hmm.
cuttings form.
I mean, they may back 'em up with seeds,
but a lot of times things, you know, like train wreck AK 47,
uh, old school, even,
even I guess like old school, super Silver Haze,
Northern Lights and things like that,
those are more like the heritage, like original foundation,
uh, strains that, uh, did get,
uh, passed, passed around, uh, through the community.
Um, so right on.
- So let's, let's go back
to the poly hybrid then, and then cap off with that.
- So now poly hybrids,
and there's nothing wrong or unethical
or things to be snooty about with
with poly hybrids.
It's just now what seems to be gone,
and this isn't just, I mean, this is my personal opinion,
but a lot of other folks, um, are coming
to the same conclusion is,
and if we're gonna do our dog breeding analogy again,
uh, most of the modern cannabis
that's now on the scene is like
the Labradoodle times 10 .
So now you've got Labradoodles crossed to Pug Dole,
or puggles back to a pit bull, back to a Labradoodle,
back to a Cocker spana doodle.
And it's all this p and
and it almost doesn't even have any, um,
necessarily any intention for like, oh,
I wanna create like a really racy, high creative, uh,
variety that tastes like passion fruit.
You know what I mean? It's more, okay,
gelato was hot last month, uh,
wedding cake is hot right now,
so we're gonna cross those two and call this gelato cake.
- Yeah. It just, just on its face, it sounds less reputable
because you're, you're breeding
for marketing hype instead of breeding.
To go back to your dog example, breeding for the dog,
that taking can take care of the sheep
and feed itself in the wild, right?
Yeah. Like one has authentic human cultural meaning,
and the other one is for capitalism
- And, and it's just, yeah.
It's like top 40 hits, like these just very
just riding hype for the next 30, 60 days.
And it, it's almost like if people were hanging outside, uh,
like a dog show, you know, like a breeders', I don't know,
these Kennel Club dog shows.
Yeah, yeah. And they're like, oh, your dog
won the best interior class
and yours won the best in this, so
how about we just cross 'em together? And
- So now we have a Doberman Schnauzer
or whatever, . Yeah,
- Exactly.
And it's like the hot new dog
that's gonna win the next year's kennel club, you know?
And then you just do that exponentially into,
and that's where we're at now.
We have like all these, whoever won all the cups
or whatever is getting attention.
Then you just cross all that stuff together
and it's just become this muddled, muddled, muddled old,
uh, genetics.
And the effects, um, uh, it's, I mean,
it's not just me saying this.
I've heard this confirmed
and, uh, there's a lot of consensus seems
to be going on in the community at this point that
you can't really tell the difference between smoking
runts or wedding cake or Oreos
or peanut butter cookie breath or whatever.
It's like, it all basically kind of tastes,
looks and all kind of feels the same.
And unfortunately it's not.
Um, I mean, everyone has different, you know,
objectives and such with, with their stoner
and what they're going for and such.
But a lot of people, uh,
like that up like a creative, uplifting,
inspiring clear head and such, and, and feeling active
and kind of amplifying life.
Where now a lot of the, uh,
cannabis varieties right now seem to be more of, uh,
like an opiate sedative, uh, kind
of lethargic, tired .
- Well, it's that, it's that, it's that mercene dominance
that's all through the modern commercial strains.
Right.
- And so it's just, uh, yeah.
So, and to each their own, it's not to be snot.
I mean, there's a time and place for couch lock and such,
but, uh, but yeah, if,
if every cannabis variety now, uh,
that you find a dispensary gives you that same couch lock,
I forgot my name, I'm just gonna sit in my underwear
and play video games and eat pizza.
If that's the, the same effect you've, you've now, it's kind
of like all, all the vast world
of all these different dog breeds
with all these different personalities
and fun characteristics have now all been sort
of hybridized
and homogenized into this just blah Mm-Hmm.
, same exact uniform, kind of boring effect.
- And, you know, you know, it's, it's not to the fault
of the modern cannabis consumer or enthusiast either, right.
Because, you know, the vast majority, like 99%
of what's available is the modern poly hybrid stuff.
And, you know, I've been, I've been a cannabis enthusiast
for, geez, 30, 35, 40 years now, something like that.
And, um, you know, and,
and it wasn't until, um, I came across, um,
my buddy shared with me some cuttings of an authentic,
um, Acapulco Gold.
And I'm like, oh, this is what all those people
who were 10 years older than me we're talking about, about.
'cause the high was so entirely different.
And then, and then I decided, I'm like, well, I can't grow
that here where I live outside.
And so I was, I was able to get some, oh,
actually he's from your area, uh, Eric Miner
of HBK genetics.
Um, he, he used to live in the, in the Santa Cruz region.
Um, he, he's got this 20 week black Colombian land race
that I grew indoors.
And like those two plants are unlike everything else
that I have smoked and, and have grown.
Oh, yeah. Just because, and,
and so, you know, when, when, when you, when you say that,
okay, the, you know, your, your,
your pound cake tastes like your cookies taste
tastes like your, this, you're that.
Right. It's
because the modern commercial cannabis,
it's pulling from this very small pool of Yes.
Of, of commercially viable genetics.
Whereas, you know, if those same people were able
to get access to, you know, you know, equatorial plants
and Thai and Columbia and all these, and then,
and then smoke them against each other, well,
suddenly their taste palette has expanded.
And now they see they, that they, that they see
that they've been looking down Right.
At this particular genetic pool,
but not the, not the global genetic pool.
- Uh uh. Exactly.
And, um, so a lot of times when, when I break out, uh,
yeah, like an Acapulco or a a, a Thai variety
or, uh, just right now
loving some stuff from SSRI Lanka .
And by the way, a lot of these, uh, land races
that were growing, um, are seeds
that were sourced back in the seventies.
Mm. So it's not even,
so you're geographically traveling and culturally traveling,
but you're also time traveling.
Um, I like that. Yeah.
So there's this myth that now the weeded, uh,
uh, today is stronger and better,
but once you sample
like a 1970s Pakistan, or 1970s SSRI lankan
or some of these old, you know, people
who went on the hippie trail or
or worked at the Peace Corps in some of these areas
and brought back seeds, uh, you know, from
almost 50 years ago.
Yeah. And then you grow 'em out and smoke 'em,
and you're like, oh my God, that, yeah,
the weeded was incredibly psychedelic back then.
Incredibly obli. It's like a whole different category.
It's almost verging on psilocybin, like, you know,
like a low dose of mushrooms.
- Um, and, and a lot of the, a lot of the modern, you know,
enthusiasts, they haven't had that opportunity.
And, and so they're just all like, oh,
but the, the percentage THC on those older strains were
so low, and, and now I've got this thing
that somehow is over 30 and, you know,
and like, it's so much better.
But, but a lot of these smokers don't understand the
important role that, um,
prevalent terpenes placed in those older strains,
in these untouched strains that, you know, they might be 12
or 18%, but their terpene percentage is so high.
And that's what sculpts the high,
the the experience that you have.
And, and, and that's where the real difference comes from.
We're not, it's not about the THC,
it's about the whole bouquet.
- Exactly. So that's what's going,
it's like the symphony orchestra.
So yeah, you have the bassoons and the symphonies,
and you have the cellos
and you french horns going on and things.
They don't play a major role, but they add so much texture
and counterpoint
and diversity within the sound
that there's this whole communication going on.
But now what seems to be going on with, if there's only
so much real estate on the cannabis plant,
so if you're up at 30, 35% THC,
that's kind of like the symphony orchestra.
There's only so much stage.
So that means you have
to kick out all the other instruments to make way
for now you have 200 violin players
all playing the exact same note .
Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's just playing the exact same melody,
and it's still, you know, you, it's still good,
still going, it's still as complex
- Still.
- Yeah. You've just lost all that complexity
and now it's more of a one dimensional
buzz experience without, instead of this big symphony
tapestry of textures and counterpoints
and polyrhythms and such like that.
So it's, yeah,
that's kinda one analogy.
And you could even go like Grateful Dead Jerry Garcia style.
- I mean, let's not, let's not go that one.
, let's not go there. We only have so much show,
and you and I are both Deadheads ,
and that will be the rest of the show.
So, so I actually wanna move forward off of the definitions
and, um, because we we're coming up on a commercial not too
far from now, but I wanna get some
of these other ideas in here that, um, you know,
sometimes let's, let's, let's take a,
that black Colombian I mentioned earlier as an example.
Okay. So, um, you know, um, we meaning
cannabis cultivators that are growing now,
we will get something like a a a a Colombian or, or,
or a, a Syrian
or, you know, wherever this particular, um,
land race has come from and,
and people treat it like that is, um,
not just an example,
but that is the type of plant that everybody in,
you know, um, Columbia
or SSRI Lanka you mentioned earlier, as if one, that one,
um, plant is the only plant that is grown there.
And, and, um, and, and,
and I just like you to talk to that idea
because I think that
that is a real common misnomer in the modern cannabis world,
that just because you've had one plant from, you know,
a growing region, that you've had what they have to offer,
you know, and, and I,
and I just really feel like that that's probably not true.
- Yeah, that's, so that's not reality ,
and all you have to do is go to Mendocino
or go to Big Sur, even go back in, in time, you know,
50 years ago when things were, you know,
more on the down low, but was every single family
and every single grower growing the exact same
genetics and answers?
Now it's, and it's not in Srilanka or Afghanistan.
There's not like a cannabis club
where they all vote on what genetics,
every single cannabis farms
- Gonna grow, which one is going to be be the official
genetic of their growing region.
- Yeah, yeah. No, they're all,
they're all doing their own thing,
but they're also gonna, well, one, they probably, you know,
are sourcing their genetics from similar gene pools just
because the world hasn't been globalized
for all that long, you know?
Mm-Hmm. , um, so limited, you know,
genetic resources, they're,
they're gonna pull from things they have in the area, uh,
but then they're also, you know, gonna also, uh, select
for things that do well in that same region.
So you're gonna have similarities,
but are they all gonna be exact carbon copies of each other?
Um, and the answer is absolutely not. It
- Kind of reminds me of your Huckleberry Hill example from
earlier where back in the genetic line is mom's favorite.
Like, you know, in SSRI Lanka, it's not,
they're just producing one kind.
All these different families have got their mom's favorite.
And so, you know, they, they've got just as much diversity
as, as we're experiencing now.
Um, it's just that, um, seeds are so hard
to get from these areas that, you know,
one variety makes its way out and then,
and then unfortunately becomes the
example for the whole region.
'cause that's the only thing we're able to get. Yeah.
- But they, they will be similar though.
Um, I mean, what's happening now though,
in Thailand is all the Amsterdam
and college genetics are coming in, um,
- And polluting their land races.
- Uh, that's, that's the really scary thing.
That's a whole nother topic of discussion.
But we may be experiencing a global
land race extinction due to, uh, hybridization.
It's basically like if, you know, if you let
labradoodles out to roam free, and they went
and basically copulate with every dog breed on the planet
now, everything's been doodled,
- . And
- By the way, I don't have anything against Doodle.
I actually have a schnoodle, uh,
schnauzer poodle, uh, mixed dog.
So they're f fantastic.
- But it makes, but it makes your point though, ,
- What I'm saying is, do we want to live in a world
where every dog breed has been dood ized?
Yeah. And, uh,
and every can cannabis has been cookie
cake gelato, you know?
Yeah. Um, right on.
- Well, hey, uh, I don't think, I, I don't think I'm going
to top, uh, uh, don't doodle your cannabis, um, , uh,
anywhere anymore in this, uh, in, in this first set.
So let's, uh, let's, let's end there
and go for commercial break
and we come back, we're gonna start talking about, uh, uh,
terpene profiles in land races.
So, um, let's go ahead,
let's go ahead and take it. Yeah, yeah,
- Yeah.
Alright. Can I say one other tiny,
tiny little thing about the land race?
Yeah, yeah, go ahead. And that whole, uh, wild, uh, sort
of feral definition and such,
and this is a really important thing for, uh, sort
of ethics morals of, of land races.
So the definition that some folks have worked on
the wrong definition, that, uh, land races are just kind
of wild and feral
and growing on the side of the road also sets up
a situation of appropriation
and complete erasing of the farmer
who developed the land raise variety.
You get what I'm saying? Yeah, I do.
So here, maybe in the us, if you all
of a sudden have some really cool, uh, Thai variety,
you're, if you're totally discounting
that this is probably hundreds of years of genetic work
by actual humans in Thailand in, in whatever region
or village who created this like totally sublime variety.
If, if you think that it was just growing on the side
of the road wild, all of a sudden there's no credit,
there's no honor, there's no respect for, uh, those farmers,
and then you're more aptt to just name it something,
or even call it your weeded,
and you've just erased, uh, the, the human, uh, work
that actually got that strain to that sublime, uh, state.
So it's just really important for land race
to also fully credit these amazing
cannabis intuitive breeders who, uh,
develop these like absolutely sublime, uh, varieties.
Uh, so a lot of human work went in to get 'em to this point.
Um, and just
'cause you took a vacation
to Thailand brought back some seeds, doesn't mean
you created that strain
- .
Man, that's a really good point.
And I'm glad that, I'm glad
that you held me up to put that in there.
So, alright. Thank you. Alright. Yeah.
So now let's go to commercial.
Uh, we're gonna take that short break and be right back.
You're listening to Shaping Fire
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shang Los,
and my guest today is LAN race specialist Jeff Nortel.
So in the first set we talked a lot about
what exactly land races are
and how to understand them from different varieties
of plants that may have come into this modern world in
different ways so that we can really be precise in
what we're talking about since we are talking
about a scientific term.
So that was really great teasing those terms
apart generally.
Um, but now here in the second set I wanna talk about, um,
a little bit about the characteristics of these plants and
and, and why we generally all tend to respect them
and why Jeff has, uh, you know, uh, focus so much
of his life on it.
So, so Jeff, you know,
in your videos on your YouTube channel, you are, uh,
constantly talking about just being like, like bowled over
by the complexities of, um, the terpene profiles.
And, and during the first set we also talked a little trash
about like modern poly hybrids and,
and about how so many
of them are massively mirroring dominant.
Um, but, but I wanna tease out a little bit more, um, about,
uh, about the experiences that you've had in your garden,
um, with unique blends of terpene profiles.
And, and like, you know, you don't have,
clearly you're not gonna talk about all 300
that you're growing, but if it,
I wanna provide the listeners with a snapshot of some
of the experiences you've had.
So, so maybe just like pick like three
that were especially unique to you and,
and describe them to us so that we can smell it through you.
- Alright, as far as top three
standout terpene profiles from this year's garden,
and again, every year we're doing different
varieties from around the world.
Uh, but the ones that are super fresh in my mind are, uh,
the Cambodian two varieties of Cambodian had the most
insane passion fruit, like just that tangy,
zippy, sour, super tropical, loud, loud,
loud passion fruit.
Mm-hmm, . And I actually, uh, went
and got an actual passion, fruit fruit, sniffed that,
and then sniffed one of these, uh, mondo curri
and then also Tao another region, uh, in Cambodia.
They smelled exactly the same, the actual passion fruit
and, uh, the cannabis, uh, at least those varieties
of Cambodian .
So that was pretty mind blowing.
Um, another terpene profile that, uh,
you rarely come across in sort of the, uh, modern,
uh, poly hybrid genetics, but, uh, which I'm a huge fan of,
or the really stinky skunky rotten meat,
burnt rubber, rotten onions, just super funk.
Um, and a lot of times you'll find those in the Afghan,
uh, Pakistani.
Uh, we actually grew some beck um,
varieties this year.
Um, and, and one of those smelled like rotten
decomposing onions
and garlic really, really funky.
It's almost, uh, disgusting.
But at the same time, intoxicating, kind of like the, uh,
truffle black truffle effect Mm-hmm.
where it's gross, but intoxicating. Well,
- I I, I love those cheeses that smell and,
and smell like baby diaper.
You know, like, like if if it, if that smell was coming out
of a human, I'd be like, eh,
but suddenly now on a, on a plate with crackers, I'm like,
yeah, this is awesome .
- Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, reminds me,
there's a really weird terpene profile, um,
that actually smells like, uh, like bounce dryer sheets.
Oh wow. Like that really gnarly fabric.
And, and by the way, this is what's strange is I'm highly
allergic to a lot of synthetic fragrances, especially those,
uh, laundry detergent smells.
So I just absolutely am repulsed
whenever I smell that smell.
But then, uh, and I always said, there is no smell in nature
that smells like a bounced dryer sheet,
but I've actually grown some cannabis now that smells
like bounced dryer sheets and it's kind of weird.
So who knows, it may actually help me, uh, get, get
through my dryer sheet aversion by, uh,
smelling it in cannabis form. It
- Is really strange when you smell something in cannabis
that you also exist in the real world.
Uh, this example isn't as great as yours,
but you know, there, uh, the blueberry muffin, uh,
variety from Humboldt Seed Company, it's really startling
how much it smells like the blueberry jiffy cake mix,
which is, which doesn't, you know, it kind
of barely smells like blueberries that are natural, right?
It smells like itself.
But it was so strange to smell that variety
and be all like, oh my God.
Like, okay, this smells blueberry,
but it smells like the muffin box
and those muffins themselves, which, you know,
have got a little more of a, a breakfast cereal vibe
to them than like a natural organic berry.
And it's, it's a fantastic, uh, you know, variety.
I've, I've grown it a long time and I love it.
And yet it smells like a cheap boxed muffin mix .
And it's just a bizarre thing. Yeah.
- It, it is so wild.
The diversity of aromas
and terpenes that this cannabis plant, uh,
can carry and provide
and that can just sort of emerge from these plant.
And then when you start crossing plants
to whole new combinations of all, it's,
it's pretty mind blowing.
I, I'm not aware of other plants that have such a diversity
of smells.
- So I'm gonna ask you one more terpene related question.
I don't wanna spend too much time here.
'cause like, you know, not everybody can
smell it together, right?
So it's, uh, talking about terpenes is, is kind
of challenging sometimes, but the,
the last question I want to ask you about this is, um,
tell us, tell us about one plant that you smelled where you,
this, the, the, the, the terpene profile of it was,
was a smell that you had never smelled before
and it blew you away
because you, your brain wasn't sure what to do to it.
It'll probably be very hard for you to describe it to me
because of that reason too. Uh,
- Yeah.
It's almost like, uh,
seeing a color you've never seen before.
Yeah. Just like that. And there's just, yeah.
Your, your brain just can't even process that.
But yeah, there's a number of, uh, varieties of cannabis
that, uh, come across in these land race botanical gardens
we do every year that have just it, like,
scrambles your brain
because you've never smelled
anything like that.
And so you, you can't even find words to describe it
because it's such a bizarre smell.
Um, so yeah, that happens quite a bit.
And then you end up just sitting there sniffing it
because it's, it's intoxicating
just to have that experience. Yeah.
- So it's so engaging to have that first new experience.
We humans go for those
- Ab Absolutely.
Oh, oh. Did wanna say the other really interesting terpene
profile that you find in land races, uh,
especially the African
and Southeast Asian equatorial,
is there's this really interesting, um, carrot,
uh, parsnip, uh, turp.
So it's, and the reason how, uh,
actually connected those dots was my girlfriend was actually
peeling parsnips
and the smell that came from those parsnips, I was like, oh,
that's that smell .
So it's that, uh, sort of antiseptic astringent,
really earthy, sweet, fresh, fresh,
fresh carrot parsnips smell.
Um, but you'll actually see those in a lot of African, uh,
varieties as well as, uh, uh, Thai Chang Rai
that we grew this year actually had that TURP profile.
Uh, and that's, that's always a favorite too. So
- While we're kind of going through your picture album,
if you will, of, of, of plants that you love, um,
we just did terpenes and I wanna do a very similar thing,
but with morphology now, right.
So how the plant looks, it's structure
because, um, you know, I love, uh, when you go
through these different plants
and I'm like, wow, these are all cannabis plants,
but they all have got so much different visual personality.
For example, you recently post a video about one from,
um, the island of St.
Vincent. And, and I saw it
and I'm like, now this is a plant
that would work really well where I live
because it doesn't grow big and bushy.
It kind of grows, like, it, it grows kind
of like straight up and down,
like it's a pencil skirt or something.
Yeah. And it's very respectful of its neighbors, right.
You can walk past it without it grabbing
you like most plants do.
So, so I guess kind of like you did with terpenes,
maybe tell us like three of your favorite morphologies.
Like tell us the story of like three plants
that look atypical.
- Um, this year,
and again, I'm just going off this year .
Sure. Every year there's mind blowing, uh, structures
and, uh, but this year a huge surprise was, uh,
Brazil amazonia.
So I was, you know, thinking
that was gonna be just a long lanky wispy tropical
equatorial sativa type.
This actually turned out to be super short,
super squat bushy with big,
chunky, thick buds.
It, it grew and looked almost like an, uh, a typical indica,
actually an even bushier stockier squattier, uh, indica.
Uh, but it has this wild, um, pina colada
terp profile going this tropical fruit.
And then, uh, when you finally get around to, uh,
sampling it and smoking it, it is super high electric,
almost like Brazil, uh, carnival kind of vibe.
like bright colors and feathers and electric
and drum beats, all in
a very squat bushy, actually early finishing.
These were all done, uh, by the end of September as well.
Uh, but super electric sativa stone.
So, uh, that was, that was a big surprise.
Um, and also like super bulletproof as far
as pest resistance and mold.
- It's got all that land race vigorous still going.
- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, that's one
of the beautiful things too about these land races is
they're just so, they're so much hardier
and designed to not be high maintenance plants.
Mm-Hmm. Um, so, so anyway, they have, yeah,
we don't even deal for the most part with botes,
haven't seen powder mildew in 10 years.
Wow. Um, and, uh, bug pressures pretty low.
The aphids are still kind of a menace
that's probably gonna be around for quite some time.
They're kind of indestructible, but, um, yeah.
So that's, so anyway, that, that was one, uh, structure
that was very surprising this year.
Another, yeah. The St.
Vincent as, uh, you noticed, uh,
even though we had unlimited root space,
so usually a cannabis plant,
when it has unlimited root space, tends to the top
of the plant will then become wide
and bushy as well to mirror the root system.
Uh, but for whatever reason, um, the St.
Vincent just shot straight vertical
and only was maybe a four foot diameter plant, where a lot
of ours are like eight to 10 foot diameter plants
when growing in those conditions.
So, uh, for whatever reason, it just really wanted
to str stay going vertical.
Uh, and it got probably 12 feet tall
with just really nice uniform sort of candelabra of, uh,
uniform flowers going.
Um, have not sampled that one yet,
but, uh, had all the signs
that it should be, it should be a nice one. Yeah. And,
- And it, and it's special too.
I just like plants that, that look different.
You know, like, like even these mu mutants
that you see people put online, like,
I like mutant plants too.
It's like people are like, oh, that should be destroyed.
Kill it. Get it out of the gene pool.
And I'm all like, okay, maybe all of that's true,
but also isn't it cool , you know,
- Yeah.
And it may turn out to be a, an advantageous adaption.
Mm-Hmm. , you know, um, that's kind
of mutants drive evolutionary change too. So
- Let's, let's talk a little bit about how the morphology,
um, responds to where these plants are from.
Right? Because a lot of these plants that come your way,
these land races, they have themselves over, you know,
hundreds or thousands of years have become hot
or cold adapted for the areas that they are from.
And so, um, you know, uh, I'm very willing to be wrong
'cause I have not come in a contact with
as many land races as you have.
But generally speaking, my impression is, is that, you know,
equatorial plants where it is, um, you know, wet
and hot, they tend to be more open, airy flowers
so that, um, you know, they can, uh, more easily, uh,
transpire and, you know, kind of respirate
and breathe in the heat
and also so they dry out really quickly
after, you know, a monsoon or something like that.
Whereas so many of the, the, you know, the,
the, the pakistanian Afghani, you know, things that are
grown, um, you know, near, you know, these, these,
these cold seasonal mountain reason regions, they tend
to have these like, like tighter flowers.
And in my head it's always like, oh,
so they can con conserve warmth.
And I don't know if that's true or not, but,
but I'd just like to hear your thoughts
after having interacted with so many of these plants.
How do you see these morphologies, um, you know, uh,
being associated with the different parts
of the world that they come from?
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And there definitely is, um, yeah, the equatorial, tropical
sativa for the most part.
Yeah. Share that, um, lar airier,
uh, flower structure for that exact reason,
because they're in a extremely humid, moist environment,
and they might even be getting rain quite often.
Um, so yeah. Yeah.
So if, if it was a super compact dense flower,
they'd all implode , you know, within the first week
of flowering, um, due to baus, uh,
they'd probably mold out very quickly.
So, uh, yeah, kind of across the board.
Um, the equatorial sativa all have that looser, airy,
uh, structure a lot of times.
Uh, very foxtail like foxtails upon foxtails Mm-Hmm.
, but almost like a Romanesque, uh,
- - Kind of, you know, fractals
of like foxtails within Foxtails.
Within Foxdale. Yeah. And, uh,
but you'll find those are also crystal coated,
so they may not be heavy, but every nook
and cranny is coated in crystal. So, um, so
- If you're just talking about straight resin yield,
they might actually end up being a bigger one a a better
choice, even though they're open and airy.
- Yeah. Yeah. And, um,
and that's another really interesting thing about, um,
but yeah, so that's equatorial, tropical equatorial.
You'll see that pretty much across the board.
But the amazing thing is these plants just don't mold.
They just, pouchitis just does not happen
unless, uh, the only thing that gets the,
like the achilles heel
of those tropical sativa is, uh, frost.
So, and as things start to get cold,
if you do get frost on those buds, they tend to, um,
die very quickly.
Uh, so that's, uh, so that's the only thing.
And even when they die, a lot of times you won't get, uh,
bot mold, you'll just get dead spots.
Um, so they're just incredibly mold resistant.
Um, now with, uh, like Afghan, Pakistan, Iranian,
those varieties, it's not just hot and cold,
but those are also extremely arid environments,
so very low humidity where, uh, bot just isn't
as much of a threat in those regions.
So, uh, the human, um, uh,
intervention with those has, has been to maximize yield.
So you get more yield with a chunkier heavier bud.
And if you can push it without bot, you know,
there, there you go.
Uh, the problem is when you bring a super dense chunk,
Afghan all of a sudden into Santa Cruz coastal, wet,
foggy environment, that's just a recipe for, uh,
bot explosions.
And that's, and see that quite, uh, a lot
of people have that experience.
Um, we're fortunate where we're growing, we're
behind a mountain range, so that catches the marine layer.
So we're actually pretty arid in our place,
so we can actually pull off these, um,
uh, Afghan, Pakistani, uh,
- Yeah, it's pretty obvious from your Instagram
that you live in a special bio region
because seeing all these different plants from all these
different regions of the world, all growing
and finishing, like I've, I've sworn at my phone before.
I'm like, how the hell is he growing this? Oh my god.
You know, because like I live at the other end, right?
I live Pacific Northwest on an island, you know,
know 50 feet from crashing water
that's marine and salty, right?
So like, I live a terrible place to grow myself.
But where you are, it's, it's like, you know,
best possible combination of attributes.
- It's, yeah. And, uh, it's San Lorenzo Valley in, uh,
Santa Cruz mountains, has a long, long, uh,
cannabis history .
And it turns out it's a real nice, uh, little microclimate
that, uh, yeah.
State. It's, it's blocked off from the marine layer,
even though we're down in a valley.
Uh, so you don't necessarily have
to be super high elevation.
Uh, but, uh,
but we're behind a mountain, uh, empire grade
that actually catches that whole marine layer,
so we just don't get that coastal fog.
So, uh, anyway, so, so yeah. So the next
- Thing I want to talk about is the,
the unique cultivation demands of land race.
And that kind of fits in perfectly
with the weather conversation that we're having
because, you know, I'm sure lots of people
who are listening like me are being inspired by
what you're saying, and we're all like,
I wanna grow land races.
And, and, um, uh, Have you, you know, from,
from growing so many year over a year, um,
have you noticed any cultivation demands
or best practices, um, for land races?
Because, you know, I imagine
to a certain degree they are finicky, uh, to us who are used
to kind of growing all of the same plant, because,
because these, these, these modern plants
that we've talked about earlier are, are, are very similar
to each other, but,
but then you're growing all these weirdo plants, which
of course are land races, and they're not weirdo,
but like they are if you're a cultivator
who has never grown them before.
So, so let's, let's hear a little bit about that.
Like, I'm, I'm sure that you have run into some unexpected
growing needs that, that some of these varieties have.
- Uh, well, here's,
here's the very good news about land raise is, um,
they're actually developed
to be low maintenance plants .
- So a real, we love hearing that.
- So, so a real finicky high maintenance like og cush,
you know, that, uh, you know, is gonna have powder mildew
and all this, uh, it, it, not
to get back into the dog thing, but, um,
but it's kind of like, you don't have to worry about
with the land race, like the hip dysplasia
and all this like kind of inbred Mm-hmm.
problems, Mm-Hmm. with, uh,
susceptibilities to disease and, uh, molds
and, and pathogens.
Uh, and it turns out actually with the hop latent vir, uh,
most land raises, I mean, they can still get it,
but don't seem to be affected, uh, ne
as negatively as some of these poly hybrids too.
Uh, so, so it's actually, yes, all the land races,
and we're growing them from all
around the world from totally different regions.
Uh, but
because they're such hearty, uh, plants that are designed
to, you know, thrive without a ton of human, uh,
catering and pandering to the plant
and pampering, um, they all do pretty,
they have a, they all seem to have high tolerance
to disease molds and pests.
Um, so I I actually think they're easier
to grow than, uh, most
of the modern poly hybrids that tend to have sort
of genetic disease vulnerability built in.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They've, they've actually, yeah,
they've gone for potency and who caress about.
And, and when people say, oh, it's a challenging strain,
or really finicky strain,
there's another way you could say is
that's kind of crap genetics.
If you massively disease prone plant,
that might actually be kind of crappy genetics.
No one wants to Yeah.
Be growing unless you're doing some
adoptive foster thing for sickly plants or something.
Why, why would you wanna grow plants that you have
to spray chemicals all over all the time
to fend off diseases?
How about just getting genetics
that naturally fend off diseases? But that's, do you,
- Do you find that, um, it takes some time with these
varieties for you to figure out their, like basic needs?
Like I can imagine that these different plants from
different places have got like different water requirements
and different, um, you know, uh,
food amendments requirements,
- Actually, not really.
Oh, right on. And I,
and I can totally see where you might think that,
but, uh, here's, here's how we grow.
Uh, we,
we don't actually really feed throughout the entire year.
So what we focus on
and we, uh, grow in a Hugo culture Mm-Hmm.
environment. Uh, so, so where,
and, and what we do is we build a really super
nutrient dense, super rich living
soil in the off season.
And then by the time we plop that plant in that soil come,
uh, uh, June, may
or June, we don't actually feed
those plants throughout the whole year.
Wow. So it's, what we're doing is we provide an
all-you-can-eat buffet of compost
and organic nutrients that, uh, along with all the, uh,
breaking down, uh, forest debris, uh, sticks, leaves, uh,
chunks of logs and everything Mm-Hmm.
. And so now you have all the mycelium
that's just thriving in there.
So it's kind of like the plant, um, can pick
and choose what it wants.
It's got an all you CANet buffet
and everything's there at its root tips, uh, to absorb.
Uh, so that's, that's how we actually grow.
We supercharge and get really living great,
powerful living soil, uh, in the beginning of the season.
And then the plants just kind of adapt to that.
So we're not at all running around going, oh, this,
these Brazilians need some phosphorus,
or this needs magnesium.
Like, we don't do that at all.
Um, the only time is maybe some of these longer
flowering plants that get super, super huge, uh,
may just need a little bit of, uh,
nitrogen later in the year if they start,
if they've gobbled up all the, uh, nitrogen.
A lot of times we'll do that with just a simple
like fish emulsion, compost tea, uh,
to just balance 'em out.
But, but no, there's, these are not, um,
yeah, they, they all basically, they're,
they're all growing in the exact same soil
with the same nutrients, same watering ,
and they kind of, and they just kind of adapt.
- So when, when you are new to a land race
and you don't know whether
or not it's going to be, you know, a four foot wide
or a 10 foot wide plant,
do you just give all your plants the same amount of space
and let them express themselves,
- Or Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we're in a, uh, fixed, we installed these hexagon,
uh, shaped, uh, planter boxes, uh, in the soil. So we're
- Ah, so you're not moving your grid every year or anything.
It's like, yeah.
- So, and we gave 'em a lot of space
'cause we designed the garden, uh, for humans
to be wandering around.
Nice. This is not a row crop
yielding industrial garden by any means.
It's, it's actually a living art exhibit of, uh,
cannabis genetics from around the world.
And it's cool, just growing.
But then they make it so much, it
- Just sounds like a pleasure garden, dude. .
- Oh, it, so, so we, we started this
and we started having, uh, visitors out,
and it was just so much fun.
But this was pre COVID and then COVID hit,
and, you know, we've kind
of taken a break from having visitors out.
Uh, and then the hot latent OID had me really freaked
out until now.
I, I, I have a much better understanding of the risk,
um, and such.
And we're not in a high risk, uh, of humans visiting
and like transmitting, thank goodness.
So, um, but anyway, yeah, the garden's designed to actually
for humans to wander around, um, where each box
actually has plenty of space in between.
So you can actually, if you're wandering around,
socializing, smoking a joint, ,
and you resonate with a particular plant,
you can then walk all the way around the perimeter of
that plant, see it from all angles, uh, and and such.
So that's, yeah, we give the plants lots of space
'cause we kind of see each one as like a, a work of art, uh,
and we want to give it, its, its space
to do its thing. .
- Good, good. So, um, how do you find that these, and,
and like I, I recognize that you're outdoors,
so you may not have had to done a lot of this,
but I bet you still have an educated opinion on it.
Like, how do, how do these land races that have never, um,
you know, been cultivated by present
growers, how do they respond to things like training
and scroggin and like, kind of like, like human dominance?
- We don't, well, that's exactly it.
Like, um, philosophically, I,
I don't see my relationship with the plant as
where I'm trying to dominate and squeeze out and maximize
and exploit every molecule of that plant to
pump out more buds for me.
. Yeah. Right, right. Um, so we, we don't top,
we don't leaf, we don't train.
We we're just, each one of these seeds is a mystery,
and we wanna see what this plant story is.
So we actually step back
and just let the plant do its thing.
Uh, so we, again, we don't even leaf these plants.
Um, and what, what you'll find though,
when you let a plant just go natural, you, you kind
of get a Christmas tree type shape,
and then it may be like, Hey, how do,
but how does light get into the inner buds?
But the answer is as, as the buds get heavier on the tips
of the branches, that actually opens the plant up
as the gravity pulls down those branches.
So now all of a sudden, the whole length of
that branch is now sort of,
the entire plant is almost blooming like a flower
and opening up.
And now all of a sudden the sun can get in to those, uh,
inner buds as well.
Uh, but then we also do, um,
'cause some of these plants are, you know, 12 feet tall,
10 feet diameter, I mean, they're huge.
Uh, so we don't harvest the entire
plant all at the same time.
We do like a layered harvest,
so we just take the top right buds,
and then that also allows the sun
to now penetrate further into the plant
and let those under buds develop.
So, we'll, we'll do three
or four harvest off the same plant,
uh, while at the same time just watching.
Yeah. We don't, we don't do,
we've given up on all the human manipulations.
Uh, the one thing we do though I should know, is as far
as you do have to support the plant, um,
so we just put four redwood posts, uh,
creating an out outer bo you know, a box of posts,
and then we take, uh, organic hemp bakers twine.
So it's actually food grade hemp twine, .
And we just run that twine, sort of like a big spider web
around, uh, the plant to support its branches.
So, uh, but that's, that's all we do. So
- We're gonna take a short break and be right back.
Um, when we come back, we're gonna be talking a little bit
about breeding land races,
and a little bit more about, uh, preserving land races.
So you are listening to shaping fire,
and my guest today is land race specialist Jeff Nordal.
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That's Gas Lamp Seeds. Welcome back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shloss,
and my guest today is Land Race Specialist Jeff Nordal.
So here we are at the Big finish,
and you know, during the first set, we figured out
what the hell land races are,
and during the second set,
we talked about why we have all fallen in love with them
and, and why anytime the flower is available, um, serious,
uh, weed heads are like on it, like catnip
because we know that that is the special rare rarer thing
that we just, you know, don't have
as much access to anymore.
And, um, and, and they're beloved for good reasons.
So in this last set,
we're gonna talk a little bit about breeding with land races
and then a little bit about preserving land races.
So, so Jeff, you know, um, you know,
we've already touched on breeding a little bit earlier in
the show, and, um, it's weird.
It's, it's like it's a two-sided coin, right?
Like on one side, breeding with land races is exhilarating
because we like the idea of taking whatever our favorite,
you know, modern strain is, and then,
and then breeding it to a land race strain
to perhaps like increase its vigor
or increase its resistance to pests,
or to grab some of those like, you know, old school land,
race terpene profiles,
whatever it is that we're trying to do.
Or actually the other way, um, try to breed a land race
to a modern plant to like cut down on
how many weeks it takes to flower.
So there's, there's a lot of like, reasons
that we may wanna breed with a land race,
but the flip side of that also is that every time we,
we breed a land race that is less of that land race
that exists in its pure form for us to preserve, for,
you know, medicinal applications
or for just enjoying that land race in and of its own.
Right? So, so what are your, what are your, you know,
I would just like to hear you speak to that about, you know,
like, like, like are you crossing land races
to modern hybrids or, and what are your thoughts about that?
- Um, yeah, so, uh, there's,
there's two things going on when you're sort of deciding
to work with landrace plants
and, uh, so there's, there's, there's two goals.
There's, uh, uh, preservation, so backing it up,
so realizing that these are possibly at risk
of going extinction.
So, uh, do, uh, seed, uh, re-up
or, uh, just, uh, an inline breed
where you're just preserving that, uh, particular line
of land race for preservation.
Uh, but then you can go off and start playing around
and experimenting and doing all kinds of crosses
and, uh, uh, genetic hybrid work.
So those are both totally valid things.
But if you just go, uh, full-blown hybrid
and then lose your, it's again, with the
with the dog breed thing, you can't really take the doodle
out of the doberman pincher,
you know, once it goes in there.
So, so yeah, once, once, once you've bred that land, race,
all those attributes are all mixed together.
Yeah, it would take lots of generations to try
and back it out to get back to the original, uh,
variety or at least close to that.
So, so there's really, uh, so there's preservation going on,
and that right now, at my stage in
where I'm at in my cannabis adventures is
we are popping new seeds every year, total mystery seeds,
uh, from these different, uh, regions of the world, uh,
even sometimes going back in time
to the eighties, seventies, sixties.
And then we're observing those,
and right now we're focused on preserving those genetics
and, uh, to do that really well.
Uh, you can't just go skipping down into your garden
with, you know, if you're trying to pollinate,
let's say a Vietnamese plant, uh,
you may have your male Vietnamese from that same seed batch,
or hopefully like three, four or five males.
So you're getting more genetic diversity, uh, oh,
by the way, that's another thing you're trying to do
with your land raise seed backups.
Your genetic backups is you're not doing a lot
of selection, right?
Then you're actually trying
to get the broadest, uh, gene pool.
So you wanna use as many females
and as many males from that variety as you can.
Mm-Hmm, . So then when you make, let's say,
a thousand seeds, you're trying to capture
as much genetic diversity in that, uh, seed backup Mm-Hmm.
. And those are just, uh, not primary colors,
but these are, you know, your foundation building blocks,
of cannabis breeding that you wanna keep pure.
Uh, uh, but then once you have those locked in
and you have those seeds
where you're saving them in a good environment
that they're gonna last, you know,
10 years plus still be viable, then, you know,
then you have the freedom to go start making crosses
and hybrids, uh, that where you're, you know, trying
to improve things or adapt things for, uh,
like here in California, um, you know,
I may absolutely love, uh, like, uh,
the, the effect the high
that you got from a plant from Laos,
but it's a 16 week flower .
You know, it's very difficult to grow that outdoors
here in California before the storms come in
and just beat the crap out of the plant.
And it may even kill it, you know?
Uh, so you may say, Hey, I, I want that Laos effect,
but in a plant that finishes, you know, in mid-October,
so then you, you have to start pondering
what would be the least intrusive early finishing plant
that might carry all the Laos effects.
Mm-Hmm. with it on top of it.
You, you get what I mean? So that, that's totally cool.
Totally fair game.
I don't think that's disrespecting any cultures.
I don't think that's culturally appropriating.
Um, as long as you're crediting the,
the wider global cannabis community, um,
and, and then are transparent with how you created
that variety, like say, yeah, if, if a tie and a Laos plant
and an Afghan went together, you know, document that
and let people know that's where that plant came from,
those are its lineage, then I think that's, um, respectful
as well to, uh, the origins
and the farmers who created these plants.
Um, so that's, that's totally, totally cool
and, and fair game.
But, uh, the, uh, sort of ethical
shortsighted blunder would be to immediately,
at least this is my opinion,
just immediately start making hybrid crosses without backing
up and preserving that original land raise
that may have taken hundreds, if not thousands of years
to create that unique genetic. So I don't,
- When you say back it up, would
that just be a simple open pollination,
like in a tent or something?
That way you're not, you're not losing the pollen into other
plants , but you just,
you're just letting 'em all make more seeds.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So, sorry, sorry, I kind of rambled on that.
So the thing is, if you're dealing with a lot of varieties
of, uh, pure lines of land raise, uh,
you can't be sloppy with your pollen
and, uh, just bring pollen down into your garden
and potentially have
that pollen drift onto other plants, right?
Uh, so the, the technique that I use that
works well, but I'm open
to other ideas if other people have come up with other, uh,
techniques that are work is, anyway, what I do
is we grow the landrace plants out in our
landrace botanical garden.
That's where you get the big 10, 12, 15 foot tall plants.
But before those plants go into flour, I label each one
of those plants with its variety, plus its pheno number.
So it might be Mexico halco,
three out of four halco plants we're growing.
So this one's number three pheno, right?
So I'll take cuttings off
that number three Lesco plant, take those cuttings
to my other property, uh, root those cuttings.
And now I have very small
- Oh, - Versions of that plant, right, that are now,
that are, now I'm keeping them in like a three gallon pot.
So now when I need to go isolate them for pollinating,
I can easily just move them around my property.
Um, and,
and then, uh, the males, I keep in a, a separate area,
and then we even isolate our males for a time
to make sure some other plant's pollen is not drifting
onto that maleo plant.
. Mm-Hmm. . Uh, so,
so we know we're getting that just that pure, uh, pollen,
and then that pollen gets taken to
that very isolated cluster of
let's say halco number three.
Uh, but, but when we're doing, let's say halco,
if we had four plants, I would then put halco 1, 2, 3,
and four cuttings all in one area, right?
So we've got the cuttings all there.
They're now in flower mode.
And then I hopefully will have three, four halco males,
and I'll take all that pollen from all four of those males
and then go evenly distribute
that over all the, uh, cuttings. You get what I mean? Yeah.
- I totally follow. And I really like the idea.
So I really like the idea
that you take the cuttings early on when the plants in your
main garden are in veg, and then you just move them away.
'cause honestly, before you explained
that you had the second property, I was trying
to picture you safely pollinating these plants in your
garden with all 300 land
- Races.
- And I'm like, that sounds like hell, man.
That sounds impossible to succeed, .
- Oh, no, yeah, you, you, you get pollen drift.
I mean, you kind of have to treat pollen like
Ebola, you know, .
It's like, it just gets everywhere.
It will find a way that the cool thing
that most people know though is with, uh,
pollen water will immediately render it non-viable.
Mm-Hmm. . So, um, uh, that's another way
to get a dirty hippie to shower a lot too, is ,
- Is to put him in charge of the pollen preplan.
- Oh, yeah. I'll, I take 10 showers a day, if not more,
you know, when I'm, uh, in the middle
of doing breeding projects.
Um, but, uh, yeah, so that's, so we do kind
of an open pollination,
but we do it on just a very small, uh,
with small little cuttings.
Um, and my understanding at least is that those,
those cuttings from those original plants are
the exact same genetics.
So those, those seeds will be true to that plant.
It just makes it, uh, you have a lot more agility
and easily being able to, uh, isolate
and move transport plants around for breeding.
- Cool. So I want to, I want to continue down this, uh,
this preserving path that we've started on.
You know, I think a lot more people are thinking about, um,
you know, land races.
You know, I,
I guess I'm gonna talk about two levels of magnitude.
Generally, people are very interested in land races
because, especially if they're connoisseurs,
because so much of modern cannabis takes tastes the same.
So the interest in land race is increasing,
and they're seen as elite and very desirable.
All of that's true. But also, um, you know, as, as kind
of like global travel, uh, for cannabis people,
you know, continues to increase.
And along with the technological ways
to tell friends about them, we're getting experiences like,
uh, like recently a lot of people watched on Instagram,
like, uh, you know, Kevin Jory and Danny Montero and, um,
and IG land race genetics.
Like, they put together a group of people
and all went to Pakistan, right?
And so, um, like I was, I was riveted by those videos
of, of like people who I know
and my friends who are like suddenly in Pakistan places
where I normally only see represented in like war
and terrorism movies, you know?
And suddenly they're all there like wearing beards, um,
you know, in Pakistan and interacting with the locals and,
and checking out their hash and checking out their plants.
And I was all like, wow, this is great.
Like, like, I wasn't, you know, on this trip,
but I, I feel like I, I got a bunch
of these experiences from the trip, right?
And so it just increases the meaning
and value of, of land race seeds
and genetics in my overall head.
And so I, I think that there's more
and more people who are just interested in land races,
which is good, of course, because, you know, the, the, the,
the land race origin areas like Thailand specifically
are starting to get, um, uh,
we're like a bunch of our people are bringing seeds there
and, and developing 'em in Thailand, and so,
and so their natural land race is getting diluted, right?
So all of this is to set up this question that, um,
you know, I can see that land races are going
to become increasingly popular,
and yet we already are trying to preserve them
for medicinal reasons.
Um, I'd like to hear you speak to the idea of preservation
and a, how do you think that, um,
land races are effectively preserved?
And b, do you think there's any chance in hell
that we're not actually gonna eventually lose all the land
races because they are a set number today?
And that number is likely just probably gonna continue
to decrease, but maybe, maybe I've got an, um, you know,
an especially jaded view of it.
So I know that's a big question,
but I'm just gonna like, hand you the
mic and hear what your thoughts are.
- Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, the extinction
through hybridization is incredibly real
and it's happening.
Um, so yeah, a lot of people are sounding the alarm,
like, Hey, we really need to start, uh, backing these up,
uh, before they all go extinct, uh,
as far as these land races.
So, um, and
yeah, so, so yes, that is really happening.
And, um, so, so the
- Extinction is a real concern - Period.
Full stop abs. Absolutely.
Um, and, and it's not just, uh, like pollen drift.
It's actually, you know, folks, we're gonna get
to a point, I mean, we,
we've romanticized here in the US we may romanticize this
little secluded fantasy village, you know, in the Himalayas
you hike up to,
and you think you're gonna find this like amazing weeded
that's grown by monks or something,
or the whole village like grows as magical weeded, uh,
and you take this trek up there and you get up there
and they're like, Hey, we got cookies
, and they're,
- We got Coca-Cola.
- Yeah, exactly. And they're like, yeah, we're,
we're growing, uh, gelato and diesel and og and uh,
- Oh, that's the kind of cookies that you mean.
Ah, yeah, that's,
I I thought you meant like western foods, you mean.
- No, no, no, no, no.
I mean, it may be that they're like blasting.
I mean, they, it's cool,
but yeah, they may be actually blasting Snoop Dogg
and growing, you know, California strains Yeah.
Up there. And, and, uh, we of course romanticize
that they're supposed to stay isolated
and unique, uh, when in reality they wanna,
- They wanna grow the height too,
- , they wanna integrate.
And they, they're watching stuff in California
and Amsterdam thinking that's, that's really cool.
Why would they wanna gra grow their grandfather's
old lar fee weed ?
So anyway, these are just like cultural phenomenon
and things that happen,
and then there's no judgment or anything.
You just have to realize that that's this,
these are things that happen.
Um, so, uh, there seems
to be some value in preserving these genetics.
And a lot of these genetics, um, you know,
could go back hundreds if not thousands of years.
And, uh, they're kind of, uh, in a way almost like cultural
biographies or even autobiographies from the actual
breeders, you know, like antique art is too.
Yeah. And they're infusing.
So it's plant, but it's also so infused with,
uh, culture's values and their stories.
And so, so in a way it's almost like their, uh, cultural
part of their cultural story too.
You know, just like their food and their seasonings
and dishes and, and religion, dance and, and religion
and the, and the, the cannabis is a reflection
of those values and aesthetics that they've chosen for.
Um, so it'd just be a super bummer to have those
disappear and, uh, just get hybridized
or, or, or such.
Um, and then, you know, once, once some
of these cultures also may go through, like, you know,
the hype phase , there may be in like 20 years
all of a sudden a reinterest in,
in their heritage genetics.
And if, if someone wasn't backing this stuff up,
you know, it may be gone.
Um, and it may be that they actually have to look
outside, uh, other people who, who happen
to keep those genetics, you know, in their, from their trip
that they took to that region.
They've been keeping 'em in their sock drawer
for the last 20 years, you know?
So, um, there just seems, it doesn't seem to be negative,
uh, in any way by, uh, backing up
and preserving these genetics.
And it just seems like a good long view,
uh, strategy that there is
value in keeping these, uh, genetics around
and preserving them if, if nothing more
for just historical purpose.
But I'd argue there's probably tons of
medicinal, uh, compounds and terpene combinations
and such that may actually have some real, uh,
medicinal value, uh, going into the future.
And, uh, and then just the effects and everything else.
So there's, there's a lot of incentive
and reason that, uh,
these genetics really should be backed up.
So, um, um, and, and,
and lots of different people around the world are, are
playing different parts either by, uh, gathering
and hunting, uh, these seeds
and actually just collecting them.
And then other people are , sort
of distributing them as hubs.
Mm-Hmm. , you know, for people who are, uh,
interested in accessing these genetics, um, something
that we've sort of toyed around with here in, uh, Santa Cruz
and something that I'd, I'd really like to be a part of
and even potentially work with, uh, a larger organization,
uh, who has like grant money and such,
but to actually put together, um, an actual cannabis, uh,
seed bank, like a public domain seed bank
to try and back up, especially, uh, as far as land race,
genetics, uh, try and back up
and preserve as much of those genetics as possible.
But then very important philosophically, um,
that would be public domain where everyone would have access
to these, there's no proprietary ownership, uh, of,
of any of these genetics. Um, and
- You'd be, you'd be preserving them for their own, right?
You don't mean like a seed bank,
like people use Seed Bank now very often
as just like a seed bank store or a seed bank distributor?
Oh, no, no.
Where, where, where there's a,
there's the profit Moffitt motive, primarily,
you're talking about a more classical seed bank, like,
like those of us who save seeds, right? Where
- You're, and like the, you're - Making a library
- Like the seed preservation.
Yeah, yeah. Like the seed preservation that's, you know,
going on in Norway or wherever. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- A big building that unsurprisingly flooded .
- Yeah. Yeah. So that those kinda, uh, seed banks
and, uh, like here UCSC, uh, university California,
Santa Cruz, um, did something else,
which was the Human Genome Project.
Mm-Hmm. , where they mapped the entire human
genome and then put that in the public domain.
So they were in a race with some of the pharmaceutical
companies and researchers who wanted that information
to be proprietary .
But, uh, UCSE in our sort of hippie
for the community sort of vibes, at least UCSE, decided
to put that all in the public domain.
So as the human de genome project, where anyone, uh,
can actually access, uh, that information
and we'd like to see in that spirit, uh, something
with a cannabis, uh, c bank or library
or archive where everyone would have equal access,
uh, to all those genetics for, you know,
there'd be a procedure to obviously to, to get them,
but, uh, where yeah, where they're available to everyone.
'cause we kind of come from the philosophy
that humans did not create cannabis.
It came from the universe.
And so who, who are we
to claim ownership?
It's cannabis is here for the people,
and the magic of it
is connecting more people in a positive way, uh, with,
with cannabis like that, that has the potential to actually
shift things in a positive trajectory, uh, for this plant.
But if we're gonna start playing these, uh, ownership,
proprietary exclusive, uh,
commercial dollar chasing games with a plant
that generally when you consume it, a lot
of times has the opposite effect or opposite message
- , - That that would be, yeah,
that's definitely in the spirit
of just the cannabis experience, is making things available
to, to everyone equal access, share the, share the love.
That's beautiful. I guess to break it down.
- Cool, man. Well, I, I think that that's a great place
to stop on that message.
I really, I really love that.
And, and, and so Jeff, I, I wanna, I wanna first thank you
for, uh, I know your time is valuable,
and you know, this time of year is really busy, as,
as you know, you work through, you know,
your plants coming down and curing and all that.
And so, so thank you for making time for us, number one.
And then number two, I'm, I'm really grateful, like, kind
of like for you as, as your personality, you know,
you're such a, a chipper, easy
to like guy on your Instagram.
And, and that is exactly, you know,
how you showed up authentically here today.
I, I, I can't imagine there's anybody who's been listening
to the show who wouldn't like a, like to hear you talk more,
and then b, wouldn't enjoy like, sitting down for like lunch
and a chat on your deck with you.
You know, you're just, you're such an amiable dude
with like,
such vast experience on this very particular topic
that we all get giddy about.
So, so thank you for, for coming onto shaping fire and, and,
and, and sharing with us your experience.
- Cool. Well, it's been a, been a pleasure.
Thanks for the interest and, uh, yeah,
and some point in the future our, our plan is to actually
have people come out and visit our, our property.
So we can just sit there and geek out and nerd out
and stand there in awe staring
amazing plants.
So, so that, that is the goal.
And, uh, with COD
and everything, it made it tough to have visitors.
So those videos that you've watched really is,
is coming from that, um, uh, intent is actually wanting
to share, share these plants with others
and inspire others to take a closer look
and maybe delve in to, uh, the unlimited
infinitely fan, uh, amazing land,
race world, .
- Fantastic. Alright.
So, so in wrapping up, dear listener, um, if you would like
to, uh, keep tabs on, uh, Jeff
and his, uh, land race amusement park that he runs, ,
um, uh, I recommend at the top of the list, um,
you follow him the way I do on Instagram.
And so that's really easy. He's easy.
That's jade nectar, all one word.
Now, uh, that, that is an absolute have to, if you want
to know more about, uh, Jeff
and, um, his, uh, medicinal preparations, he is a,
an expert in the acid forms of cannabinoids.
Uh, he even holds us patents, which, uh, is not something
that we, uh, was on the topic today,
but he's a very interesting cat.
So you can find out more about that aspect
of his goodwill at his, at his website,
which is jade nectar.com.
And then finally, um, if you wanna see, uh,
sometimes longer forms of the videos
that are on the Instagram, um, you can also search, uh,
Jade Nectar, uh, on YouTube, uh, for, for some
of the longer forms of the videos.
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I've been your host, Shang Los.