There are over a hundred cannabinoids found in cannabis and more continue to be
discovered. Each one has a personality, each has particular uses,
and when they all work together, they are at their best.
Federal cannabinoid prohibition influences the cannabis market in ways that
pervert it to the detriment of everybody.
Even though Delta eight t h c is widespread throughout the country and many
profess that it was made legal by the US Farm Bill,
it is not actually a legal cannabinoid. It's illegality is just not enforced.
But that's not what we're covering during today's show.
If you'd like to hear expert legal analysis on that topic,
check out the new video clip from last week's Credo Science Delta eight webinar
on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel with attorney Lauren Ruddick.
During the webinar highlights you'll find there,
she explains in detail the legal standing of Delta eight and clarifies many of
the misconceptions and consider subscribing to the Credo Science Newsletter to
find out about their upcoming cannabis science webinars.
Links to all of these are on the Shaping Fire website page for this episode.
Today's episode is about the Delta eight molecule itself, how it functions,
how it doesn't function, and why how it's made is so important.
If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently
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Welcome to episode 110. You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host,
Shang Los. My guest today is Dr. Ethan Russo.
Ethan Russo is a board certified neurologist and former senior medical advisor
to GW Pharmaceuticals.
He's served as study physician to GW Pharmaceuticals for three phase three
clinical trials of SAV effects.
He has held faculty appointments in pharmaceutical sciences at the University of
Montana in medicine at the University of Washington,
and has visiting professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences.
He has been president of the International Cannabinoid Research Society and is
former chairman of the International Association for Cannabinoid Medicines.
In 1995,
he pursued a three month sabbatical doing ethno botanical research with
indigenous people in Peru.
He's author of several books of cannabis medicine and has published over 30
articles in neurology, pain management, cannabis, and ethno botany.
Dr. Russo has joined us several times on shaping fire,
episode 22 on treating traumatic brain injury with, with Cannabis and Mushrooms.
Episodes 11 and 27 about his famous research papers on cannabinoids and
terpenoids. Episode number 67,
about treating migraines with mushrooms and cannabis,
episode 80 on cannabis hyperemesis syndrome,
episode 83 on Cannabigerol C B G episode 1 0 3,
regarding the life's work of Dr. Raphael Ulam, and of course,
the shaping Fire sessions on Shaping Fire's YouTube channel.
During the first set, today,
we will take a look at the molecular nature of Delta eight T H C and its
historical milestones. In the second set,
we will learn about how Delta eight is synthesized and how that creates
complications for use of this cannabinoid. And during the third set,
we will explore some of the lesser discussed attributes of Delta eight,
including its propensity to cause failed drug tests and cannabinoid hyperemesis
syndrome. Welcome back to Shaping Fire, Ethan.
That's nice to be here.
You know,
I had another first this morning while setting up here in my office studio. Uh,
usually I can leave a window cracked facing the water for, you know,
the good salt water smells.
But today I had to close it because the sea lions have decided to have
a party on the beach below my house, and, you know,
you can just hear them honking away. And, um, I did a little test and, uh,
you could actually hear them and I thought, well, that would,
that would give people a little bit of sense of place, but,
but also probably not appropriate. And,
and this isn't the first time that animals have played a role in one of your
shaping fire episodes. You may recall that five years ago, I,
we were recording and I had to ask you to hold for a moment because my
neighbor's cows had found their way into my yard and were eating, um,
all of, uh, my, my tulips .
And so you were kind to wait for a minute while I chewed them out of the yard.
Yeah. And the animals, uh, want their voices heard .
Totally. And, and this island's definitely theirs as as much of them,
or maybe even more than ours. So anyway, so, um, thank you for being here,
Ethan. And, um, let's get started right off at the top. You know,
so many people refer to, uh,
Delta eight tetrahydrocannabinol as you know, D eight Delta eight.
Everybody wants to shorten it, and everyone just kind of like assumes they,
you know, other people know what it is. But, but since this is a,
this is a good, uh, you know,
primer on what's going on with Delta eight in the cannabis scene,
I think we should start there.
So would you please describe what Delta eight is chemically?
Sure. So this is a normal trace, uh,
compound found in cannabis.
It differs from the more expected delta nine T H c,
only in the fact that a double bond in one of the rings is in a
different position. Um, interestingly,
apparently the plant doesn't have any enzymes to make this,
but it appears in trace amounts, even in fresh material.
Um, and certainly under the influence of heat, uh, it may,
uh, appear in greater concentrations. So it is a natural component,
uh,
and it is more stable to heat than delta nine
is.
So that, that, that one caveat confuses me because if, if,
if the plant doesn't have a way to make it,
are you suggesting that a, um,
there is a enough heat that is,
that happens during harvesting that some amount of cannabinoid is,
is, uh, synthesized into Delta eight?
Or are you saying that we just haven't figured out yet how the plant makes Delta
eight? 'cause if it's there, I mean it's there.
Yeah, I think it's the latter. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm not sure how it's doing it,
but plants are very resourceful and it may have some trick that doesn't involve,
uh, the customer enzymes.
Right on. All right. Well, that, that's really interesting.
It's always great when there are, uh,
when we get to point out new research that's, uh,
looking to be done for all the folks moving into the industry, you know,
. So, um, so Delta nine is the form of T H C that,
you know, we're so familiar with and, and humans love so much.
How is Delta eight different from Delta nine chemically?
Uh, again, you know, if we look at the molecular weight,
it's the same, uh, in terms of most reactions, uh,
it's gonna be the same. It does differ in its affinity,
uh, for the CB one receptor, the psychoactive receptor in the brain.
Uh, and so it is not quite as potent,
but basically most of its activity would
be similar rather than distinct from Delta nine. Um,
and there's a very, uh, involved experiment going on now,
hasn't quite been completed by Ryan VRE at Johns Hopkins.
We have some preliminary results on it,
but they haven't gotten through the full contingent of, um,
subjects for that study. So we will learn more,
but there are more similarities than differences.
That really surprises me because, um, you know,
most people that I have spoken with say that, you know, they'll, they'll,
they'll struggle to describe what Delta eight feels like to them,
but they're always describing it as, uh, feeling different than Delta nine,
which we will often, you know, we will describe as a euphoric. Right. And, and,
and so, um,
and it sounds like we'll get more to the bottom of this after this new study,
but, but in its essence, are you saying that,
that we're finding that Delta eight actually feels pretty
similar to Delta nine,
except that it's more like at a 60% potency?
Uh, that would be a, a really reasonable way to characterize it? Yes.
Hmm.
Alright. Um, that surprises me. Right. Um, so, um,
so it may have a, a,
a reduced but similar euphoric effect as Delta nine
does. Um,
let's talk a bit about the similar medical applications. You know,
not only do we love the experience of,
of taking in Delta nine T H C, but,
but it also has got long heralded medical benefits of being
an anti-inflammatory and an analgesic and, and an antiemetic meaning, uh,
you know, uh, anti-nausea, uh, along with a whole bunch of other things. Um,
does Delta eight have any of those similar medical
applications or, or maybe we don't know yet.
Quite likely, but again, there could be differences. There's only been one,
uh, real clinical study, uh, dealt done with Delta eight,
and that was clear back in 1995. Uh,
so this is a study by Abraham off and Lum, uh,
they used pure Delta eight T H C,
so not what people commonly have access to here. Uh,
we should say they used this in relatively high doses to, uh,
children that had, uh, blood cancers, you know,
mainly leukemia and the like. Um,
and this was given to counteract nausea and vomiting associated with the
chemotherapy that they were getting.
And there were 480 total applications, uh,
administrations of this,
and it was almost uniformly effective in allaying the
nausea and vomiting. The other thing that was interesting was, uh,
they seemed to tolerate very high doses compared to that that would've been used
in adults, but that, um,
just highlights something that was known, say in the 19th century, that, uh,
young children seem to be resistant to the psychoactive effects of
cannabis.
Um, wow, that's interesting. It sure is, um,
explanatory a bit around how we see, um,
young children use t h c cannabis oil without,
um, you know, getting like really stoned,
you know, uh, the, so many of, of the,
the younger kids can get relief from their symptoms without
the accompanying intoxication. And, and I've always wondered about that.
Do we have any explanation for why kids, uh,
seem to be able to, to tolerate, um, that aspect of it? It.
Sure. Well,
the tongue in cheek explanation would be that kids act like they're stoned
anyway. Oh, . Um,
but the more serious explanation would probably have to do with the density of
CB one receptors in the brain.
And, and what, meaning that they don't have them developed yet,
and so they're not, they're not taking it onboard as fast. Is,
is that the point?
Right. So they're, they're not as expressed as, say, in in an older person,
an adolescent or adult.
Right on. Um, so back to the idea that, um, uh, Dr.
Lum at al were, um, using, um, a,
a large amount of Delta eight isolate, um, which you're right. Um, you know,
we don't have easy access to here right now, um,
for lots of reasons that we'll talk about more later. But this is normally when,
you know, you,
you've been on shaping fire before to talk about other novel cannabinoids.
And this is normally when I say, well, you know, if the isolate is good,
does this cannabinoid work more effectively in a, uh,
in a whole plant preparation instead of an isolate?
But you've already said that it's, there's only trace amounts of it.
Um, is there any, um,
is there any analysis to support that,
that delta eight's presence or not in such small
amounts in a whole plant preparation, has any meaning at all, any,
any substantial impact?
Uh, the answer's probably not. And it was, uh, addressed, uh,
quite well by a study that's now 50 years old. Uh,
Caral and carlini in Brazil back in 1973
actually did comparative studies in man, uh,
also in animals comparing Delta eight and Delta nine T H C. Um,
and, um, you know,
these are very carefully done studies that, uh,
answer some of those questions, but, um,
because Delta eight proved to be half as effective
as Delta nine in causing rapid heart rate tachycardia,
um,
it also delta eight was 30% less effective in
producing impairment of time estimation. Um,
and it, uh,
was had less psychoactive value according to people's, uh,
subjective scores, you know, how they rated their psychoactivity mm-hmm.
. So their conclusion was because of, uh,
the low concentration of Delta eight in natural cannabis
that it probably had very little effect, uh,
would be swamped by the higher amounts of Delta nine. Mm-hmm. ,
and I should add at this time,
that we have no indication that we could selectively breed for higher
T delta A T H C concentrations.
Um, so, you know, I had heard that before,
but earlier in the show already you had mentioned that we actually don't know
how Delta eight even comes into being in the plant. So, um,
what is the,
the early signs that we're getting this idea that it would be difficult or
unlikely that we could, um, selectively breed for increased Delta eight?
Um, well, again,
because there seemingly are no enzymes that would make it,
um, and, uh,
there's been a lot of cannabis breeding going on and nothing has appeared that
seems to have significantly more Delta eight
concentration. So we, we just don't have a path forward for that. Mm-hmm.
.
All right. And I, you know,
it's unclear to me that it would be worth the expenditure of time, money,
and effort, either.
Oh, sure. Well,
whether or not it makes sense from a a market point of view is definitely true,
but also a different thing because, you know,
when you and I are here saying that, um, you know,
there's no way to selectively breed for increased Delta eight, that, you know,
if I was a breeder and hearing that, that sounds like a dare. You know? And, um,
and if there is some, you know, established, uh, botanical reason, you know,
why we see a, uh, you know, a blockage in that path, forward breeding,
I figured this would be a good time to bring it up. Sure. Um, so,
um, and I also think that now is probably a good time to say,
we're gonna talk more about this later, but, but I can imagine listeners, uh,
asking the question to themselves,
well then where the hell does all this Delta eight come from? And, um,
and spoiler alert, we're gonna tell you during the second set, um,
that it nowadays it is, uh, uh,
almost entirely synthesized from C B D cannabidiol.
So we'll answer that question now,
but we'll get into that more during the second set. So, so Ethan,
if, if, um,
if Delta eight is less potent than Delta nine and the high is not as
delightful, and the medicinal benefit isn't as substantial, um,
it seems to me that there is an obvious market reason why such an
inferior cannabinoid is being used in so many states in place
of simply using traditional Delta ninex cannabis. Um, what is that reason?
Well, uh, first I, I'm not sure I'd use the word inferior. Hmm. Um,
it is inferior from the standpoint of quality control. Um,
and really the issue with Delta aid is that it is
synthesized, uh, that the, uh,
material that's produced is not pure, uh,
that there can be all these byproducts about,
which we know very little in terms of their activity or safety
and the possibility of residual solvents.
So they answer is because people make money doing it.
And, uh, because of the, these interpretations of the law,
in some instances that Delta eight is legal, um,
people have been taking excess C B D and turning it
into Delta eight, um,
as a way to use it and make money with it. Um,
basically in some instances,
because there've been 0.3% delta nine restrictions
on concentration, uh,
people have tried to get around that by spiking things with Delta
aid of synthetic origin. Um, so it's a market issue,
uh,
that is based on what I'm gonna say is a misconception of the available law.
And, and one way or another
we can parse out the law. But more importantly, the,
the answer seems to me to be just straight up prohibition that Oh, yes. That,
that if, um, we had a federally legalized, you know,
cannabis, that the, the,
the market for Delta eight would instantaneously disappear,
except for the small group of cannabis patients who,
who have, uh, unique issues that Delta eight, uh,
can address like the, um, the, the children during, uh,
chemotherapy that you mentioned earlier. And,
and I think that's important to point out because, um, you know,
we will be talking today about a lot of the challenges to using
Delta eight in, in the market as it presently, you know,
functions today. But, but these questions are only, um,
happening and people who are, uh,
incorporating Delta eight into their products,
none of this would be happening if it weren't for federal, um,
prohibition of the preferred sibling Delta nine. Would you agree with that?
Uh, yes. Let me state this clearly. Mm-hmm.
The current craze about Delta A T H C is a byproduct of
prohibition.
Excellent. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Um, alright, so, um,
so that brings us to, um,
wanting to understand a bit about how we got here. And so, um,
uh, I was, uh, fortunate to, uh, catch your, uh, webinar a couple weeks ago,
um, about, uh, the history of Delta eight and its uses. And,
um, you, you've, you've got the,
the historical milestones for Delta eight in a really nice, like,
tight package now. So, um, I, I think what I'd like to do at this point, um,
would just be to, to hand you the mic and just let you go for a while. And,
and please just teach us about the historical milestones to Delta eight that
bring us to where we are now.
Sure. Well,
we have to go way back to the fourth century on what was then
Palestine. Um,
there was a skeleton that was found in a cave in
Bemish, uh, which is about midway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Um,
in this cave,
there was the skeleton of what appeared to be a 14 year old, uh,
young woman who apparently died in childbirth.
Um, in her pelvis was an undelivered full-term fetus.
Uh, next to her,
there was this carbonized fragment of material that when
analyzed showed Delta A T H C. Now, as I mentioned previously,
that's more heat stable than, um, Delta nine. Uh,
so the fact that it was there indicates that this was psychoactive material that
apparently had been burned. And the, um,
the analysis of the situation was that this cannabis was
burned in an effort to aid delivery of the the baby.
Um, which in this instance didn't work. However,
there's been thousands of years of history of successful use
of cannabis for this purpose. So that's the first Delta eight I know about.
Then we've gotta go clear up to about 1942.
There was an American scientist named Roger Adams, uh,
who did a lot of work in analysis and synthesis related to
cannabinoids. Um, actually in 1940,
he sort of almost got the structure of cannabidiol. Uh,
so he had a bunch of this and synthesized what he called
tetrahydrocannabinol from it, but it wasn't pure. There were at least two forms.
What he found out was when administered to dogs,
this made them wobbly on their feet, what's called static ataxia.
On then and earlier,
this was a test for cannabis preparations As to their potency,
he took some of this material,
actually 30 milligrams of what likely at this point was Delta A T H
C, put it in olive oil capsules, and then tested these on,
um, convicts in New York, 77 of them. Now,
this is interesting because I think people will see the similarities
of effects to Delta nine. So with the Delta eight capsules,
um, they got onset orally in 30 to 90 minutes. It,
uh,
peaked somewhere between three and a half to five hours and was gone after seven
hours. And the effects again, were quite analogous to Delta nine.
They had increased heart rate, a little bit of increased blood pressure,
faster breathing, their eyes got red, um,
they got dry mouth, some got wobbly on their feet. Um,
you know, recognizing there was a somewhat higher dose, some got anxious,
some were euphoric. Uh, they talked a lot,
it seemed to lower inhibition. Uh, they,
those who were familiar with the term felt high. Uh,
there were bursts of laughter and some drowsiness. Um,
and then they did experiments and showed that with prolonged usage there was
tolerance, these psychoactive effects. Um,
now interestingly, they made a distinction in, uh,
humans between inmates and what they called the high ranking individuals and
industrialists who also tried this, but the effects were quite the same.
Uh,
so it may show you that businessmen at a high level aren't that different than
convicts , but enough political commentary,
um, subsequently, uh, some of the same material,
15 milligrams of what was likely delta A T H C,
um, was again, used on convicts in, uh, New York. Um,
this is part of what's called the LaGuardia report that came out in 1944,
but they used this to test bout withdrawal
from, uh, narcotics, specifically morphine or heroin. Um,
and so they compared this 15 milligrams of delta A T H C,
uh, to, uh, what was called Magenis solution, which was just a,
a form of morphine. Um, anyway,
they found that, uh, this help with the withdrawal reduce the symptoms,
uh, and people were able to leave the hospital after treatment, uh,
seemingly in better condition than those who got no treatment or got the,
the morphine substitute. Um,
so they were able to eat on some actually gained weight during withdrawal,
which is not what we usually expect with opiates. Um,
after that, we've gotta go clear up to the 1960s, uh, at this point,
uh,
professor Michelle Lemon and his colleagues were working out all the structures
of cannabis components from Hashish. Um,
and so in 1963,
they figured out the absolute structure of cannabidiol in 64,
uh, Delta nine, T H C, uh, in 66. Um,
they showed that, um,
you could turn cannabidiol into delta A T H C, uh,
through a chemical reaction. Um, so, uh, two nasty things,
um, heated together with benzene and what's called ro,
toluene snic acid, and they could make delta A T H C. Um,
that and similar schemes have come down to us, uh,
in the current time, uh,
as a way to make delta A T H C from C B D.
And then there were some, some more experiments that were done. Um,
uh, again, in 66,
it was shown that you could find some tiny amounts of Delta eight in
fresh cannabis. Um,
the Dean of American Cannabis Studies in the sixties
and early seventies with Leo Hollister, um,
he tested Delta A T H C 20 and 40 milligrams as
compared to 20 milligrams of Delta nine. Interestingly,
they put this in chocolate cookies, um,
but the effects were qualitatively very similar. Um,
euphoria, tranquility, difficulty thinking, rapid thoughts, decreased memory.
The timeframe he got was onset in 30 to 90 minutes,
orally peaking after two and a half to three hours on with
residual symptoms up to five hours. Um, overall,
again, there seemed to be a lower psychoactivity head to head,
perhaps Delta eight being about 63% of the potency of Delta
nine as I calculate it.
And that might be in keeping with what people have said previously. Um,
I previously mentioned the study of Caral and Carlini in 1973 in Brazil.
Their findings were really quite similar, uh, to the others. Um,
they, uh, essentially thought it was, uh,
about 30%, uh, less psychoactive,
um, and, uh, very careful studies for the time. Um,
so, um, compared to what we're doing now, uh, they're,
they're really valid studies. Um, and after that,
uh, really not much happened beyond, uh,
Abraham off and mic study in 1995,
clear up until a few years ago when, uh,
suddenly Delta eight appeared, um,
in great profusion, uh,
as a way to get rid of surplus C B D.
Right on. Well then, um, that's actually a great setup.
That's where we start set two. So, um,
thank you for that explanation of those historical milestones. And, um,
let's go ahead and take our break and then when we, we come back, we'll,
we'll pick up right here. You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is neurologist and cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo. And,
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Anglos,
and my guest today is neurologist and canvas researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
So before the break, we were bringing us up, uh, historically to, um,
what is happening now where most folks or nearly everyone, um,
who is incorporating, uh, Delta eight T H C into their products,
is doing so from Delta eight, um,
that has been synthesized from C B D.
And a reminder that the reason why they're not taking it directly from the
cannabis plant is because the amounts are, um, so low,
so barely there in trace forms, um, that, uh,
for both labor and financial reasons,
trying to pull it out of a great deal of, uh,
plant material just doesn't make sense. Um, but because you can synthesize, uh,
C B D, excuse me, you can synthesize Delta eight T H C from C B D,
um, and we had this huge glut of,
of C B D on the market, um, just what, three years ago now that the,
the price of the, the, the C B D raw bulk material,
the the bulk plant material was so low that it made sense to pull
out, uh,
cheap C b D out of these hemp plants and then go to the lab and
synthesize it into Delta eight T H C, which, um, you know,
even though it's less potent, um, uh, you know,
there is a way to cause a high and therefore is a way to make money. Um, so,
uh, Ethan, what I'd like you to explain right now, uh, it, it's kind of like a,
a a two part question. Um,
for a lot of us who don't have lab experience,
the idea of synthesizing delta eight T H C from C B
D is kind of nothing but words. And so I, if you could, um,
you know, uh, you know,
generally explain what it means to do that in the lab and kind of what that's
like, um,
so we can picture that in our heads what it is to synthesize something. Um,
and then, and then the second part, which is I part of your answer is, is that,
um, the,
the point of our concern about Delta eight is that so many contaminants come
along with it from the synthesis process,
which then gets passed down to consumers. So this is,
this is the crux of the problem. And,
and I'd like you to explain the synthesis and why there are contaminants,
why there are.
Sure. Yeah, I think that's an important question.
So let's say that we have a bunch of starting material. Uh,
so this would be crystalline C B D that originally came from
the plant, or e even could be be from a synthetic source.
So first this would be dissolved in some kind of organic solvent. Now,
they often will use things like hexane, which is, uh,
something you'd find in gasoline. Uh, it's not something you'd wanna ingest.
Uh, then it's heated in the presence of an acid.
And, uh, that, uh, closes a ring on cannabidiol and, uh,
produces delta A T H C. So that sounds fine,
except, um, then you've gotta get rid of the solvent,
um, presumably with some kind of drying or evaporation
technique. But there always could be residuals and, uh, you know,
that's a source of toxicity.
But the real problem here is this isn't a one-to-one
proposition. In other words, you don't get, uh,
all the C B D turned only into, uh,
delta A T c, rather, there are all these other things.
Now we're gonna get into some fancy names here, Delta four eight,
iso, T h C nine, Oxy,
hexa Hydro Cannabinol, um,
and even performing, uh, getting new things that hadn't been discovered before,
like iso tetra hydro furan. Um,
so these are things about which we know little or nothing.
It may be that some of these substances are okay.
It may be that they're not, they are potentially toxic.
Some could be actually more psychoactive than Delta nine, T H c.
Um, and, you know,
probably get into some of other nasties that have been found in Delta eight
products. But the bottom line is this, basically,
it is extremely unlikely that any commercial product
with Delta eight in it is gonna only have that, uh,
will have these potentially toxic byproducts and
potentially toxic solvent residues. Um,
so basically, uh, if you're using these products,
it's a crapshoot as to what's really in their and what, uh,
bad effects they might have either acutely or particularly
if taken on a chronic basis.
In most cases, uh, product manufacturers who are using Delta eight,
um, they, you know, they, they, they get a test done that's, that's,
you know, perhaps needed for their state. But one way or another,
there's a testing test done at some point of like, what, what the,
the isolate is that they are, they are purchasing or making and it's done.
And they're like, oh, you know, it looks good, but isn't,
isn't the science that to find any of these contaminants,
you actually have to be using standards to actually see them. And,
and since there is all of this, you know,
chemical static in the,
the isolate that is the resultant that that
many people may actually think they're using an air quotes clean isolate
of delta eight, but the, the, the,
the costs are so preventative to,
to check for all of the toxic items that, that, that that kind of
research is not being done on their products.
Uh, very likely not. So what you said is quite right. Um,
so there is this blip on a, a screen, uh, you know,
whatever kind of, uh, analytical test is being done, well,
that's gonna remain unknown unless you have a standard, um,
a pure chemical, um, that you've used in your analysis, uh,
that tells you what it is. Um, and for some of these compounds,
there aren't any standards. So, um,
in the analytical studies that have been done,
they figure it out using advanced, uh, instrumentation,
um, and comparison with the literature. But, you know,
these are just not, uh,
necessarily available in your friendly neighborhood lab. Mm-hmm. .
Um, you know, I have struggled a bit with this,
with the idea of Delta eight being, um,
natural or a synthetic because synthetic and natural both seem to,
um, be, uh, inexact words. And, and, you know,
I originally learned about, uh, Delta eight as a synthetic,
something that is not naturally occurring, but the more I speak with scientists,
um, they say what, what you have said, which is there's,
there's such a trace amount, uh, that, that it does occur in the a plant.
We're not exactly sure how it occurs in the plant, but, but it's,
it's there in trace amounts. But to, to,
to say that delta eight is then natural
seems to be a bit of a misnomer,
because that's not the delta eight that is used in,
uh, the market. What's used for product manufacturing is,
uh, I, I dare say,
always going to be Delta eight that's been synthesized from
cannabidiol, which is synthetic because it's not naturally occurring.
And so I just wanted to hear whatever your thoughts were on this,
on these messy use of synthetic versus natural for,
uh, in, in, in an isolate.
Right. Well, uh, you know, to keep it quite simple, uh,
basically any consumer product, uh,
advertising itself as containing Delta A T H C is of synthetic
origin and subject to all the caveats and warnings that we've,
uh, already discussed. Um, and it gets worse from there. Um,
you know, some of these products may contain Delta A T C O
acetate. Um, there's a whole problem with this group of compounds. The,
um, asters, um, when these are vaporized,
uh, they can produce something called ketones,
which are toxic to the lungs and have been, uh,
associated with, um, this, uh,
problem with the lungs called E Valley, uh,
which is an acronym for something very ominous, uh,
called e-cigarette or vaping product use associated lung
injury.
People may have heard of this term in relation to the vitamin
E acetate scandal of a few years ago where vitamin E
acetate was put in vape pens as sort of a carrier. Uh,
it had a consistency that was sort of like, um, uh,
cannabis concentrates, um, and, uh, was put in vape pens,
but, uh,
number of people were hospitalized and there were some deaths due to
pulmonary damage, uh, from this kind of compound on.
The same thing could happen with any of these, uh,
acetates that, uh,
are sometimes seen as toxic byproducts of delta A T H
C production. So actually, um,
delta A T H C O acetate has been demonstrated on, uh,
vape pens, something called Blue Dream.
This is showed shown by Benowitz at all, uh,
an article earlier this year. And they pointed out how, uh,
this, uh,
Delta eight T h c acetate when subjected to heat produced this Keane,
which again, is the lung damaging compound. Um,
so the same thing potentially could happen with any, uh,
Delta eight vape pen, um,
if it had similar contaminants.
Right on. So let's, let's tease out that nuance a little bit,
because I think that it is, I think that it's the crux of this,
essentially the entire episode, um, that,
that Delta eight, um,
in a perfect world where it was isolated
properly in a lab,
and then after the fact was cleaned up to
remove contaminants, which is a very,
uh, lengthy and arduous process and takes, you know,
advanced skills that as that Delta eight as a medicine
does have applications and does cause,
you know,
a 60% euphoria effect 60% of what Delta nine
does. However, that's not the world we live in.
The world we live in is that, um,
folks without enough experience are,
are isolating Delta eight,
not cleaning it up afterwards,
maybe don't have the experience to know everything that they, that,
that they need to be pulling out, don't have the budget or the lab to,
um, identify the toxic contaminants and remove them and be,
and then this is the Delta eight that is,
is being dumped onto the market that's being synthesized from C B D from hemp
from the last three years. And this is what the problem is. So,
so it's not scientifically true Delta eight,
the problem is in the reality that people aren't putting out pure Delta eight,
and it's actually got all this, um, these,
these extra contaminants in it.
Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, quite right. I mean,
the way I'd put it succinctly is Delta eight,
T H C, the molecule or compound is not the problem.
The problem is how that delta eight T h c is produced.
Um, and again,
the toxic byproducts and solvent residues. So,
uh, again, don't blame the compound compound's, all right?
But how it's made and available to consumers is the problem. And,
uh, potentially a very big one.
Um, there was, uh, a popular study from 2021 that,
that looked at this case of, of,
of Delta eight from C B D being sprayed on Delta nine flour to make it
more potent. And, and, and then I believe subsequently they,
they were taking products from the licensed market where there
should not be Delta eight,
and there were all these products that had Delta eight in it, um,
kind of like, uh, to fortify the,
the experience of the regular Delta nine. So,
so it it, it's like, uh, you know, a,
a fortified vitamin or a fortified alcohol or something. It's like, it's like,
ah, we, we wanna make it more strong, and so we're gonna,
we're gonna add something extra. And so people are adding Delta eight.
Um, and, and not mentioning it on the label, because it's, in most states,
it's not supposed to be in their licensed market,
but they add Delta eight so that their product has what they think is an
improved experience. Can you, um,
explain what the downside would be for,
for people to be buying products that have got Delta eight in it without their
knowledge?
Uh, well, it's an unconscionable practice and, um, uh,
I would condemn anyone who engages in that kind of activity.
Um, but beyond that, uh, again, it's a matter of, uh,
not knowing what you're getting, the likelihood of overdose, uh,
if in a vape pen, the possibilities of lung damage. Um,
uh, and you know, it's been demonstrated,
there've actually been studies that show that the use rates of Delta eight
products are way higher in states that have restrictive
cannabis policies as opposed to those that have freer
access to natural cannabis, uh, compounds.
Um, so, um, and again, this stuff is not, uh,
without risks. Um, there was a study earlier this year, Simon et al,
um, there's a reporting system at the Food and Drug Administration for
non-prescription drugs. It's called the Fares, uh, system. Um,
and they've had a massive increase in reports associated with Delta eight
products. Um, just to give a rundown, uh,
33 deaths attributed to Delta eight products, um,
49 hospitalizations, 109 serious reports,
41 non-serious. And this one will surprise people.
There were more respiratory issues,
problems with the lungs that were reported for Delta A T H C products
than any cannabis or hemp product. Mm-hmm. . Um,
so that puts it in context. So these things are not without risk.
So this is quite in contrast, um, to the claims,
uh, that have sometimes been made. Um, uh,
there was a, a paper that was published, uh,
wouldn't have gotten past me if I reviewed it, but in 2022,
Kruger and Kruger published a study.
It was just an online survey of people using Delta eight products.
Um, and, you know, they reported, um, that, um,
I don't know how they made their comparisons, it wouldn't be scientific,
but they were reported Delta eight was less intense, uh,
produced relaxation in euphoria that it relieved pain, but also,
uh, was associated with short-term memory impairment. Um,
there was a comment from one consumer that got in the title of the paper,
and the quote was, Delta Eat feels like Delta nine's nicer young sibling.
Hmm. Um, and, um,
that's just not borne out by the figures. Um,
uh, and, you know, the conclusion of the article was quote,
Delta A T H C may provide much of the experiential benefits of Delta
nine T H C with lesser adverse effects.
That's just plain wrong. Um,
and never should have been in a published scientific article. Um, and I,
I won't cast aspersions on the publisher, but I could mm-hmm. .
And I think that this adds a lot to the confusion that we see amongst
consumers about Delta eight. Um, you know,
I kind of came into the Delta eight understanding being prejudiced against Delta
eight, I gotta admit,
because I was only ever seeing it in really low quality
unlicensed market products that were very low priced
in, um, uh, states where cannabis wasn't legal.
And let's be clear off the top that, that, um,
the fact that it's unlicensed doesn't actually bother me. Um, you know,
we talk a lot about, a lot about, um,
individual patient freedoms and to grow your own, um, on this show.
But, but what does get me is when a product is of crappy, uh, um,
quality period, whether it's in the licensed or in the unlicensed market.
And so I would, when, when I first started seeing Delta eight, it was in,
you know, the, these states and, and, you know, $10 vape cartridges in really,
you know, bad packaging. And you could just tell like, oh man,
somebody's gonna get really sick from this stuff. And then they did. You know,
and, and so, um,
certainly there are products in the unlicensed market that are, are quality,
but certainly that's, that's not most of them, most of them are,
are low quality. And, and because there, there are papers,
um, like the one you just referred to, um,
that product manufacturers can grasp on, grasp onto and say, Hey, look,
here's a study that says that you know, it's safe and good.
It creates enough confusion in the market, um, where,
where people don't, are, aren't educated,
and so they buy what they can afford. And so these products are,
are finding themselves more into, uh, states that are not legal,
and then people who are low income, which is, you know, such a drag. Um,
I also found it interesting that, um,
there's an a s t N white paper in 2021 pointing out that the instructions for
synthesizing delta eight are easily found on YouTube. Um,
but it's, it's, it's not as simple as it's often presented on YouTube.
Most people don't have the, the skills to do it safely,
and the study says it results in wildly unintended consequences.
So are those unintended consequences the same, um, uh,
toxic components that we've already referred to? Or, or is it,
is something even further than that?
Uh, no, that's it. Uh, you know,
basically they referred in that, uh,
white paper to acetic acid available in your kitchen. Uh,
translating that means vinegar. So there,
there would be ways of making this with vinegar and heat. Um,
but again, um, you know,
I don't trust a lab to do this properly.
Why would we have any inkling that someone, uh,
doing this in their,
as a kitchen chemist would have better luck in what they produce? Um,
no one should ever try this.
Right on. So, um, to, to, to wrap us up here in set two,
um, and I, and I know we're putting a pretty sharp point on this, but I,
I don't think that we can put too sharp of a point on it. You know,
a lot of people say, you know, Hey, Delta eight is in the plant.
We've been using the plant for, you know, thousands of years.
Delta eight has a natural or origin and therefore,
and natural products are safe. And therefore they say that Delta eight in the,
in their products is fine. But,
but that's just not the right way to think about it, is it?
No.
No. Alright, so, um, let's wrap up here in, uh,
set three. Um, we're gonna start, uh,
talking about some of the unexpected attributes of Delta eight.
And, you know, some of the interesting questions about, uh,
Delta eight and how to think about it, that, that just haven't, um,
fit into the show so far.
It's gonna be kind of a hodgepodge of interesting Delta eight topics, I guess.
So, uh, let's go ahead and take, um, our second short break and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is neurologist and cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
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Sometimes the topics I wanna share with you are far too brief for an entire
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I'm your host Shang Los,
and my guest today is neurologist and cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
So here in the last set, we're gonna talk mostly about, um,
things that like didn't really fit in the rest of the show,
and there's some really interesting stuff, uh, uh,
about Delta eight that we haven't touched on yet. And,
and the first thing I wanna, uh, uh, talk about Ethan is that, you know,
we mentioned, um, early way back in the first set that, um, that, uh,
Delta eight works effectively as an antiemetic in, uh, kids who are on,
uh, experiencing chemotherapy, meaning that it decreases their nausea.
Have we found anything else that Delta eight can do? Well,
I guess anything at all, because,
because Delta nine may actually be better than Delta eight for this,
but have we found anything that Delta eight can do that, uh,
that naturally occurring, um, Delta nine, T H C,
and the other naturally occurring cannabinoids don't do better. Is there,
is there anything unique that Delta eight can do that the other cannabinoids
can't do?
Uh, yes, and it would be, its stability to heat mm-hmm. Uh,
is demonstrated in the ancient sample. And, um,
I suppose there could be some jurisdictions around the,
the world where they had a law that specifically cited
Delta nine T H C and didn't cite, uh, Delta eight,
and it might be possible there to use Delta eight preferentially.
Um, but you know, that's a, a legal point, not a medical point. Mm-hmm.
, so it's thermal stability is it's, um,
main selling point.
Is the thermal stability something that is actually a health benefit or is that
more a Oh, because it's more thermally stable,
it makes it a good choice for some particular pharmaceutical products that have
gotta be heated.
It would be that kind of situation or shelf life issues mm-hmm. ,
but, um,
I don't see this as being commercially developed in any capacity.
Um.
Meaning now or in the future, or both? Yeah.
Mm-hmm. , uh, because, um,
to make a Delta eight prescription product,
it's going to have to go through years of testing and, uh,
hundreds of millions of dollars in expenditure to get it through phase one to
three clinical trials. I don't see anybody doing that. Mm-hmm.
,
because the promise of it doesn't seem to be justif justify that much time and
resources. Yeah.
Two points. One is it wouldn't be worth the investment, and two,
it's never gonna do what herbal cannabis in a proper preparation can do.
Mm-hmm. .
So this would be the place where I typically invoke the entourage effect.
Um, go ahead. Why don't you go ahead and invoke it.
For those who aren't familiar with it, .
Um, there's nothing that pure T H C,
whether delta nine or delta eight can do that can't be done better by a
properly cons constituted, um,
herbal cannabis preparation. Um, you know, uh,
we really benefit from having additional cannabinoids and terpenoids that
reduce the side effect profile of T H C in either form,
and it makes for a better, more tolerable and more effective medicine.
Excellent. Excellent. We always,
we always love to support the whole plant medicine thinking here on the show,
. So, you know, uh, during shaping fire, episode 14,
all the way back five years ago with, uh, Dr. Greg Germond, uh,
we discussed how synthetic cannabinoids can sometimes be used in the lab as
a tool. So,
so not as something that a human is actually going to ingest for a medical
reason,
but something that can be used in the lab as a tool to do,
you know, one or other experiment or process. Um,
would you explain briefly how synthetic cannabinoids can be useful in a lab
setting?
And then also whether you're aware of any useful tool that Delta eight has
become in the lab?
Uh, okay. Well, you know,
there have actually have been hundreds of synthetic cannabinoids that have been
used in the lab.
Some of these are extremely potent as compared to Delta nine,
T h C. Um,
those can be useful in pointing out pathways or the patterns of,
uh, the receptors in a given organ, especially the brain.
So they're just tools that are used that way, and they,
they're often used in animal studies. Uh, believe it or not,
it's easier to acquire a lot of these synthetics than it is to get per
permission to use Delta nine, um, in such experiments.
But we have to be very careful. Um, rats are not humans.
And in particular, uh,
there've been some distinctions in the affinity of, uh,
Delta eight for cannabinoid receptors in certain species
of animals as compared to humans. Um, so, um,
uh, I hate to say this,
but you can only learn so much from animal studies mm-hmm. , um,
that's true. Um, there are distinct differences and, uh,
any such literature has to be read with that in mind, that,
um, that's interesting, but it may not translate to human clinical use.
Um, do you think that there are, um,
folks that are using Delta eight as a tool in the lab, or,
or is that not necessarily one of the synthetic cannabinoids that,
that has use in a lab in that way?
Um, it has been used, I wouldn't say a great deal. Mm-hmm. . Um,
but again, it, uh, might have to do with things like, uh,
its stability as compared to Delta nine.
Right on. So, um, in, uh,
some of the studies that have, uh, grabbed, um,
products from the licensed market, um,
as well as our general awareness of products in the unlicensed market,
we find that some people will fail drug tests, um,
because they've had, uh, Delta eight, um,
with Delta eight T H C, and, and, uh, folks think that,
oh, it's got Delta eight, it doesn't have, you know,
real cannabis in it, if you will. These people will say, and so and so,
they think it's safe to use, but yet they still, um, fail drug tests for,
you know, their trucking job or whatever. So will you just explain briefly why,
um, uh, Delta eight is, is,
is not safe for people who have to take drug tests?
Uh, sure. You know, as we said in the beginning,
the only difference is where this double bond is that makes a difference between
Delta eight and delta nine. So in, um,
analytical assays for urine testing
metabolites of T H C, they're gonna show up anyway.
So the bottom line is if you're getting urine testing for your job,
don't use Delta eight. Simple. Right.
On easy to the point. Um, you know, a, a lot of people, uh,
who are looking to defend, um, uh, Delta eight, um, you know,
as it's commercially made right now as an agricultural product, um,
you know, they, they say, listen, it's an,
it's an agricultural product like anything else, and,
and we should be allowed to use it. Um,
but on your webinar the other day it was mentioned why, you know,
Delta eight doesn't make sense to consider it an agricultural product. And,
and would you repeat that analysis?
Uh, sure. You know, uh,
it had its first origin and a plant grown in the ground, uh, presumably,
although, um, some Delta eight may be made from synthetic C B D,
but once it gets into the lab and subjected to these
chemical transmogrification, it's not natural.
It's not an agricultural product,
it's a synthetic product and one that invariably is contaminated.
Right on. So, so is, is there a, is there a scientific threshold point where,
um, where a,
a molecule that started out in a plant is now considered a synthetic?
Because I'm, I'm figuring that somewhere along that chain of synthesis,
um, you know, it's, it's officially no longer an agricultural product.
Does that threshold exist or is that, um, more, um, um,
subjective?
Um, uh, anytime you've changed one thing into something else that's,
uh, no longer agricultural.
Right on. Fair enough. Um, we've had you on shaping fire, uh,
before to talk about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome. And, um,
this is the likelihood that,
that someone will be especially sensitive to cannabis causing a whole range of
negative symptoms. Um, have we seen, um,
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome from, um, being caused by d uh,
Delta eight products?
Yes. In 2021, there was a case report. Uh,
this is a woman who'd had prior gastric surgery and came in with nausea and
vomiting.
So she got a CAT scan to make sure that nothing was wrong with the surgery. Um,
and her nausea and vomiting wasn't responding to the usual approaches and
drugs that they used. Uh,
it turned out she'd been using Delta A T H C gummies. Um,
they suspected she had cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome and then
responded to drugs that seemed to work better there. Uh,
specifically Halo Peritol, which is a major tranquilizer, um, and,
um, capus, anointment on the skin. So, uh,
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome will be caused by anything, uh,
whether delta nine, delta eight,
or synthetic cannabinoids that are, uh,
stimulating the CB one receptor, the main psychoactive receptor,
uh, for cannabinoids mm-hmm. . Um, so yes,
Delta eight can be associated with, uh, c H s.
Right on. Thank you. So, uh, as we wrap up here at the end of set three, um,
I think I wanna wrap up by reading a couple of, um, um, quotes from,
uh, the, the, uh, c Huah study from 2021. Uh,
we believe in unicorns and Delta eight, uh, from the cannabis scientist. Um,
and then, and then, and then I'm gonna ask you a question and, and, and we will,
we'll wrap up here. So, so here are a couple quotes from, from that paper. Um,
the problem is not with Delta eight,
but the unregulated distribution of synthetic contaminated products,
at least Walter White was a chemistry teacher.
Delta eight has become a money printing machine,
but when I show producers what it is in their sample, they don't stop making it,
and they don't stop distributing it.
They just go to another lab who will not acknowledge the contaminants found.
Um, this really points to, oh, so I'm no longer quoting anymore.
This is my voice now. Um, this really points to the,
the sheisty nature of a particular, um,
section of the, um, unlicensed market,
but even some of the licensed market, because we know Delta eight has,
has snuck into state level, um, legal markets.
And, and let's finish with this, Ethan, you know,
I know you're very passionate about this, um, as a, you know,
as a medical doctor and also as a, uh, cannabis researcher, uh,
in search for the truth. Um, for folks that are making these, um,
Delta eight, um, products that we know are all coming from,
uh, synthesis from C B D, um, you know,
what message would you have for them, um, uh, uh,
in encouragement, uh, to perhaps reconsider their approach?
Um, again,
I would state that there's nothing that Delta eight does that can't
be done more safely and effectively with a natural cannabis product.
Now, that may not be available to everyone, but, um, you know,
I hope that, uh,
the laws will change and that we see this commerce and Delta eight
disappear. Because to repeat what I said earlier, uh,
the Delta eight craze is a byproduct of prohibition.
Well said. And, and at the end, this problem, um,
sits at the feet of our legislators who are choosing to drag their feet
instead of, instead of taking, um, real, um, legalization action.
Well, thank you, Ethan. Um, it's always a pleasure to have you on, uh,
shaping fire and, um, especially with such a, uh,
a nuanced topic as this, um,
that is just not getting enough attention. I appreciate you taking, um,
your time and your expertise and going, uh, through it with us, um,
so that we too, as, as cannabis enthusiasts,
can understand the nuances and, you know,
use it in our own lives as well as the, the people who we care for.
So thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
So my friends, um, if you are interested in, uh, learning more about Dr.
Russo, there's a few ways to do that. Um, first and foremost,
I highly recommend, uh, you check out, um,
Ethan Russo's library of, uh,
work and research@ethanrusso.org,
and then click on the library tab. Um, you can also find a link to this, um,
on the shaping fire.com website for today's episode. Um,
you can also, uh, learn about, uh, Ethan Russo's, uh,
work bringing, uh, cannabis into, uh,
legal and healthful cannabis products and, and different, um,
projects@credoscience.com.
That's c R E D O science.com. And then finally,
um, if you have a burning question or a comment that is only going to be, uh,
uh, for Ethan Russo, um, you can email him at
ethanRusso@comcast.net. Now, be realistic.
You know, um, Ethan, for all these years, uh,
he does his best to get back with everybody, but he is, you know,
still an active researcher and he's, he's flying around the world to give, um,
to give lectures. So, so it might take him a while to get back with you,
so be realistic. But, um, I think he does a pretty good job of,
of getting back with everybody. Finally, if you want to learn more from Dr.
Russo, um,
he has joined us several times on shaping fire over the last five years.
And perhaps one of these, uh, will interest you, um,
all the way back five years ago, episode, uh,
22 on treating traumatic brain injury with cannabis and psilocybin
mushrooms, episodes 11 and 27 about his, uh,
famous research papers on cannabinoids and terpenoids,
episode number 67, about treating migraines with mushrooms and cannabis,
episode 80 on cannabis Hyperemesis syndrome,
episode 83 on Cannabigerol, C B G. And then, um,
recently and, uh, and very heartfully episode 103, um,
in a memorial episode about the life's work of, uh, the very respected Dr.
Rael Muslum. And of course, on the, there's the Shaping Fire, uh, sessions,
a 10 part series on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel.
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