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There are over a hundred cannabinoids
found in cannabis and more continue to be

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discovered. Each one has a
personality, each has particular uses,

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00:00:14,780 --> 00:00:17,120
and when they all work together,
they are at their best.

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Federal cannabinoid prohibition influences
the cannabis market in ways that

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pervert it to the detriment of everybody.

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Even though Delta eight t h c is
widespread throughout the country and many

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profess that it was made
legal by the US Farm Bill,

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it is not actually a legal cannabinoid.
It's illegality is just not enforced.

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But that's not what we're
covering during today's show.

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If you'd like to hear expert
legal analysis on that topic,

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check out the new video clip from last
week's Credo Science Delta eight webinar

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on the Shaping Fire YouTube channel
with attorney Lauren Ruddick.

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During the webinar
highlights you'll find there,

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she explains in detail the legal standing
of Delta eight and clarifies many of

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the misconceptions and
consider subscribing to the
Credo Science Newsletter to

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find out about their upcoming
cannabis science webinars.

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Links to all of these are on the Shaping
Fire website page for this episode.

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Today's episode is about the Delta
eight molecule itself, how it functions,

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how it doesn't function, and why
how it's made is so important.

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If you wanna learn about cannabis health
cultivation and technique efficiently

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00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,480
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Welcome to episode 110. You are listening
to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host,

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Shang Los. My guest
today is Dr. Ethan Russo.

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Ethan Russo is a board
certified neurologist and
former senior medical advisor

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00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,060
to GW Pharmaceuticals.

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00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:15,060
He's served as study physician to GW
Pharmaceuticals for three phase three

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clinical trials of SAV effects.

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He has held faculty appointments
in pharmaceutical sciences
at the University of

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00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:23,980
Montana in medicine at the
University of Washington,

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00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,980
and has visiting professor at
the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

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He has been president of the International
Cannabinoid Research Society and is

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former chairman of the International
Association for Cannabinoid Medicines.

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In 1995,

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he pursued a three month sabbatical
doing ethno botanical research with

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indigenous people in Peru.

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He's author of several books of cannabis
medicine and has published over 30

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articles in neurology, pain
management, cannabis, and ethno botany.

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Dr. Russo has joined us
several times on shaping fire,

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00:02:55,690 --> 00:03:00,040
episode 22 on treating traumatic brain
injury with, with Cannabis and Mushrooms.

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00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,840
Episodes 11 and 27 about his famous
research papers on cannabinoids and

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terpenoids. Episode number 67,

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00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:09,840
about treating migraines
with mushrooms and cannabis,

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episode 80 on cannabis
hyperemesis syndrome,

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00:03:13,470 --> 00:03:18,120
episode 83 on Cannabigerol
C B G episode 1 0 3,

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regarding the life's work of
Dr. Raphael Ulam, and of course,

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the shaping Fire sessions on
Shaping Fire's YouTube channel.

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During the first set, today,

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we will take a look at the molecular
nature of Delta eight T H C and its

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historical milestones. In the second set,

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we will learn about how Delta eight
is synthesized and how that creates

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complications for use of this
cannabinoid. And during the third set,

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we will explore some of the lesser
discussed attributes of Delta eight,

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including its propensity to cause failed
drug tests and cannabinoid hyperemesis

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syndrome. Welcome back
to Shaping Fire, Ethan.

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That's nice to be here.

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You know,

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I had another first this morning while
setting up here in my office studio. Uh,

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usually I can leave a window cracked
facing the water for, you know,

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the good salt water smells.

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But today I had to close it because
the sea lions have decided to have

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a party on the beach below
my house, and, you know,

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you can just hear them honking away.
And, um, I did a little test and, uh,

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you could actually hear them
and I thought, well, that would,

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that would give people a little
bit of sense of place, but,

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but also probably not appropriate. And,

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and this isn't the first time that
animals have played a role in one of your

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shaping fire episodes. You may
recall that five years ago, I,

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we were recording and I had to ask
you to hold for a moment because my

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neighbor's cows had found their way
into my yard and were eating, um,

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all of, uh, my, my tulips <laugh>.

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And so you were kind to wait for a minute
while I chewed them out of the yard.

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Yeah. And the animals, uh, want
their voices heard <laugh>.

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Totally. And, and this island's
definitely theirs as as much of them,

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or maybe even more than ours. So anyway,
so, um, thank you for being here,

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Ethan. And, um, let's get started
right off at the top. You know,

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so many people refer to, uh,

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Delta eight tetrahydrocannabinol
as you know, D eight Delta eight.

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Everybody wants to shorten it, and
everyone just kind of like assumes they,

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you know, other people know what
it is. But, but since this is a,

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this is a good, uh, you know,

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primer on what's going on with
Delta eight in the cannabis scene,

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I think we should start there.

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So would you please describe
what Delta eight is chemically?

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Sure. So this is a normal trace, uh,

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compound found in cannabis.

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It differs from the more
expected delta nine T H c,

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only in the fact that a double
bond in one of the rings is in a

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different position. Um, interestingly,

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apparently the plant doesn't
have any enzymes to make this,

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but it appears in trace
amounts, even in fresh material.

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Um, and certainly under the
influence of heat, uh, it may,

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uh, appear in greater concentrations.
So it is a natural component,

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uh,

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and it is more stable
to heat than delta nine

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is.

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So that, that, that one caveat
confuses me because if, if,

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if the plant doesn't
have a way to make it,

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are you suggesting that a, um,

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there is a enough heat that is,

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that happens during harvesting
that some amount of cannabinoid is,

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is, uh, synthesized into Delta eight?

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Or are you saying that we just haven't
figured out yet how the plant makes Delta

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eight? 'cause if it's
there, I mean it's there.

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Yeah, I think it's the latter. Mm-hmm.
Uh, I'm not sure how it's doing it,

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but plants are very resourceful and it
may have some trick that doesn't involve,

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uh, the customer enzymes.

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Right on. All right. Well,
that, that's really interesting.

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It's always great when there are, uh,

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when we get to point out
new research that's, uh,

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looking to be done for all the folks
moving into the industry, you know,

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<laugh>. So, um, so Delta nine
is the form of T H C that,

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you know, we're so familiar with
and, and humans love so much.

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How is Delta eight different
from Delta nine chemically?

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Uh, again, you know, if we
look at the molecular weight,

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it's the same, uh, in terms
of most reactions, uh,

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it's gonna be the same. It
does differ in its affinity,

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uh, for the CB one receptor, the
psychoactive receptor in the brain.

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Uh, and so it is not quite as potent,

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but basically most of its activity would

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be similar rather than
distinct from Delta nine. Um,

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and there's a very, uh, involved
experiment going on now,

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hasn't quite been completed
by Ryan VRE at Johns Hopkins.

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We have some preliminary results on it,

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but they haven't gotten through
the full contingent of, um,

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subjects for that study.
So we will learn more,

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but there are more
similarities than differences.

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That really surprises me
because, um, you know,

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most people that I have spoken with
say that, you know, they'll, they'll,

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they'll struggle to describe what
Delta eight feels like to them,

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but they're always describing it as,
uh, feeling different than Delta nine,

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which we will often, you know, we will
describe as a euphoric. Right. And, and,

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and so, um,

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and it sounds like we'll get more to
the bottom of this after this new study,

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but, but in its essence,
are you saying that,

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that we're finding that Delta
eight actually feels pretty

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similar to Delta nine,

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except that it's more
like at a 60% potency?

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Uh, that would be a, a really
reasonable way to characterize it? Yes.

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Hmm.

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00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,320
Alright. Um, that surprises
me. Right. Um, so, um,

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so it may have a, a,

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a reduced but similar
euphoric effect as Delta nine

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00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:21,590
does. Um,

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let's talk a bit about the similar
medical applications. You know,

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not only do we love the experience of,

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of taking in Delta nine T H C, but,

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but it also has got long heralded
medical benefits of being

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an anti-inflammatory and an analgesic
and, and an antiemetic meaning, uh,

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you know, uh, anti-nausea, uh, along
with a whole bunch of other things. Um,

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does Delta eight have any
of those similar medical

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applications or, or
maybe we don't know yet.

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Quite likely, but again, there could
be differences. There's only been one,

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uh, real clinical study, uh,
dealt done with Delta eight,

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and that was clear back in 1995. Uh,

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so this is a study by
Abraham off and Lum, uh,

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they used pure Delta eight T H C,

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so not what people commonly
have access to here. Uh,

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we should say they used this in
relatively high doses to, uh,

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children that had, uh,
blood cancers, you know,

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mainly leukemia and the like. Um,

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and this was given to counteract
nausea and vomiting associated with the

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chemotherapy that they were getting.

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And there were 480 total applications, uh,

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administrations of this,

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and it was almost uniformly
effective in allaying the

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nausea and vomiting. The other
thing that was interesting was, uh,

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they seemed to tolerate very high doses
compared to that that would've been used

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00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:04,790
in adults, but that, um,

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just highlights something that was
known, say in the 19th century, that, uh,

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00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,950
young children seem to be resistant
to the psychoactive effects of

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00:11:15,310 --> 00:11:16,143
cannabis.

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00:11:16,570 --> 00:11:19,110
Um, wow, that's
interesting. It sure is, um,

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00:11:19,340 --> 00:11:23,110
explanatory a bit around how we see, um,

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00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,070
young children use t h
c cannabis oil without,

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00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:33,620
um, you know, getting
<laugh> like really stoned,

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00:11:33,620 --> 00:11:36,300
you know, uh, the, so many of, of the,

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00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,780
the younger kids can get relief
from their symptoms without

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the accompanying intoxication. And,
and I've always wondered about that.

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00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,140
Do we have any explanation
for why kids, uh,

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00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:53,060
seem to be able to, to tolerate,
um, that aspect of it? It.

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00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:54,240
Sure. Well,

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00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,480
the tongue in cheek explanation would
be that kids act like they're stoned

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00:11:58,500 --> 00:11:59,960
anyway. Oh, <laugh>. Um,

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00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:04,920
but the more serious explanation would
probably have to do with the density of

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00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,720
CB one receptors in the brain.

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00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:12,000
And, and what, meaning that they
don't have them developed yet,

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00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,400
and so they're not, they're not
taking it onboard as fast. Is,

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00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:15,970
is that the point?

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00:12:15,970 --> 00:12:20,640
Right. So they're, they're not as
expressed as, say, in in an older person,

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00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:22,560
an adolescent or adult.

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00:12:23,210 --> 00:12:27,280
Right on. Um, so back to
the idea that, um, uh, Dr.

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00:12:27,980 --> 00:12:32,560
Lum at al were, um, using, um, a,

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00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:37,000
a large amount of Delta eight isolate,
um, which you're right. Um, you know,

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00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:40,160
we don't have easy access
to here right now, um,

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00:12:40,620 --> 00:12:44,680
for lots of reasons that we'll talk about
more later. But this is normally when,

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00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:45,120
you know, you,

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00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,800
you've been on shaping fire before to
talk about other novel cannabinoids.

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00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:54,840
And this is normally when I say, well,
you know, if the isolate is good,

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00:12:55,350 --> 00:13:00,120
does this cannabinoid work
more effectively in a, uh,

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00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:03,080
in a whole plant preparation
instead of an isolate?

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00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:08,240
But you've already said that it's,
there's only trace amounts of it.

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00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:12,200
Um, is there any, um,

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00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:15,200
is there any analysis to support that,

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00:13:15,310 --> 00:13:20,040
that delta eight's presence
or not in such small

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00:13:20,070 --> 00:13:24,640
amounts in a whole plant preparation,
has any meaning at all, any,

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00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:26,160
any substantial impact?

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00:13:27,060 --> 00:13:31,520
Uh, the answer's probably not.
And it was, uh, addressed, uh,

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00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:36,240
quite well by a study
that's now 50 years old. Uh,

220
00:13:36,530 --> 00:13:40,560
Caral and carlini in Brazil back in 1973

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00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,640
actually did comparative
studies in man, uh,

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00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:50,760
also in animals comparing Delta
eight and Delta nine T H C. Um,

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00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:52,840
and, um, you know,

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00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,480
these are very carefully
done studies that, uh,

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00:13:58,220 --> 00:14:00,880
answer some of those questions, but, um,

226
00:14:02,670 --> 00:14:07,520
because Delta eight proved
to be half as effective

227
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,160
as Delta nine in causing
rapid heart rate tachycardia,

228
00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:13,420
um,

229
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:18,040
it also delta eight was
30% less effective in

230
00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:22,960
producing impairment
of time estimation. Um,

231
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:25,720
and it, uh,

232
00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:30,600
was had less psychoactive value
according to people's, uh,

233
00:14:30,890 --> 00:14:35,600
subjective scores, you know, how they
rated their psychoactivity mm-hmm.

234
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,920
<affirmative>. So their
conclusion was because of, uh,

235
00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:43,880
the low concentration of Delta
eight in natural cannabis

236
00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:47,480
that it probably had
very little effect, uh,

237
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:52,360
would be swamped by the higher amounts
of Delta nine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

238
00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:54,040
and I should add at this time,

239
00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:58,880
that we have no indication that we
could selectively breed for higher

240
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,200
T delta A T H C concentrations.

241
00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:06,440
Um, so, you know, I had heard that before,

242
00:15:06,860 --> 00:15:11,080
but earlier in the show already you had
mentioned that we actually don't know

243
00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:16,520
how Delta eight even comes into
being in the plant. So, um,

244
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:18,120
what is the,

245
00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:22,880
the early signs that we're getting
this idea that it would be difficult or

246
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,840
unlikely that we could, um, selectively
breed for increased Delta eight?

247
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:31,320
Um, well, again,

248
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,640
because there seemingly are
no enzymes that would make it,

249
00:15:36,260 --> 00:15:37,760
um, and, uh,

250
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:42,440
there's been a lot of cannabis breeding
going on and nothing has appeared that

251
00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:46,840
seems to have significantly
more Delta eight

252
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,560
concentration. So we, we just don't
have a path forward for that. Mm-hmm.

253
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,433
<Affirmative>.

254
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:53,960
All right. And I, you know,

255
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,320
it's unclear to me that it would be
worth the expenditure of time, money,

256
00:15:58,340 --> 00:15:59,200
and effort, either.

257
00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:00,400
Oh, sure. Well,

258
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,400
whether or not it makes sense from a a
market point of view is definitely true,

259
00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:06,840
but also a different
thing because, you know,

260
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:09,680
when you and I are here
saying that, um, you know,

261
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,800
there's no way to selectively breed for
increased Delta eight, that, you know,

262
00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:17,800
if I was a breeder and hearing that, that
sounds like a dare. You know? And, um,

263
00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:22,800
and if there is some, you
know, established, uh,
botanical reason, you know,

264
00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:27,640
why we see a, uh, you know, a blockage
in that path, forward breeding,

265
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,840
I figured this would be a good
time to bring it up. Sure. Um, so,

266
00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:36,600
um, and I also think that now
is probably a good time to say,

267
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,040
we're gonna talk more about this later,
but, but I can imagine listeners, uh,

268
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,960
asking the question to themselves,

269
00:16:43,190 --> 00:16:46,480
well then where the hell does all
this Delta eight come from? And, um,

270
00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:50,520
and spoiler alert, we're gonna
tell you during the second set, um,

271
00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:52,920
that it nowadays it is, uh, uh,

272
00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:57,000
almost entirely synthesized
from C B D cannabidiol.

273
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,600
So we'll answer that question now,

274
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,320
but we'll get into that more during
the second set. So, so Ethan,

275
00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:04,560
if, if, um,

276
00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:09,520
if Delta eight is less potent than
Delta nine and the high is not as

277
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,520
delightful, and the medicinal
benefit isn't as substantial, um,

278
00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:20,080
it seems to me that there is an
obvious market reason why such an

279
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:24,680
inferior cannabinoid is being
used in so many states in place

280
00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:30,040
of simply using traditional Delta ninex
cannabis. Um, what is that reason?

281
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:34,840
Well, uh, first I, I'm not sure
I'd use the word inferior. Hmm. Um,

282
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:39,600
it is inferior from the
standpoint of quality control. Um,

283
00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:44,400
and really the issue with
Delta aid is that it is

284
00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:47,600
synthesized, uh, that the, uh,

285
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,600
material that's produced is not pure, uh,

286
00:17:51,910 --> 00:17:55,880
that there can be all
these byproducts about,

287
00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,560
which we know very little in
terms of their activity or safety

288
00:18:01,420 --> 00:18:03,880
and the possibility of residual solvents.

289
00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:09,240
So they answer is because
people make money doing it.

290
00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:14,320
And, uh, because of the, these
interpretations of the law,

291
00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:18,480
in some instances that
Delta eight is legal, um,

292
00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:24,760
people have been taking
excess C B D and turning it

293
00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:26,960
into Delta eight, um,

294
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,640
as a way to use it and
make money with it. Um,

295
00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:34,000
basically in some instances,

296
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:39,280
because there've been 0.3%
delta nine restrictions

297
00:18:39,420 --> 00:18:41,880
on concentration, uh,

298
00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:46,760
people have tried to get around
that by spiking things with Delta

299
00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:51,720
aid of synthetic origin.
Um, so it's a market issue,

300
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:52,590
uh,

301
00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:57,360
that is based on what I'm gonna say is
a misconception of the available law.

302
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,200
And, and one way or another

303
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:05,200
we can parse out the law.
But more importantly, the,

304
00:19:05,380 --> 00:19:09,680
the answer seems to me to be just straight
up prohibition that Oh, yes. That,

305
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,360
that if, um, we had a
federally legalized, you know,

306
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,440
cannabis, that the, the,

307
00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:20,960
the market for Delta eight
would instantaneously disappear,

308
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:26,160
except for the small group
of cannabis patients who,

309
00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:29,840
who have, uh, unique issues
that Delta eight, uh,

310
00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:33,720
can address like the, um,
the, the children during, uh,

311
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,600
chemotherapy that you
mentioned earlier. And,

312
00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:41,000
and I think that's important to
point out because, um, you know,

313
00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:46,280
we will be talking today about
a lot of the challenges to using

314
00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:51,040
Delta eight in, in the market
as it presently, you know,

315
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,600
functions today. But, but
these questions are only, um,

316
00:19:56,830 --> 00:19:59,600
happening and people who are, uh,

317
00:19:59,630 --> 00:20:02,480
incorporating Delta eight
into their products,

318
00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:06,760
none of this would be happening
if it weren't for federal, um,

319
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,400
prohibition of the preferred sibling
Delta nine. Would you agree with that?

320
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:15,080
Uh, yes. Let me state
this clearly. Mm-hmm.

321
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,840
The current craze about Delta
A T H C is a byproduct of

322
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,033
prohibition.

323
00:20:22,290 --> 00:20:26,330
Excellent. It doesn't get any clearer
than that. Um, alright, so, um,

324
00:20:26,790 --> 00:20:29,010
so that brings us to, um,

325
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,970
wanting to understand a bit about
how we got here. And so, um,

326
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:39,450
uh, I was, uh, fortunate to, uh, catch
your, uh, webinar a couple weeks ago,

327
00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:44,930
um, about, uh, the history of
Delta eight and its uses. And,

328
00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:46,530
um, you, you've, you've got the,

329
00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:50,000
the historical milestones for
Delta eight in a really nice, like,

330
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,440
tight package now. So, um, I, I think
what I'd like to do at this point, um,

331
00:20:54,890 --> 00:20:59,280
would just be to, to hand you the mic
and just let you go for a while. And,

332
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,040
and please just teach us about the
historical milestones to Delta eight that

333
00:21:03,050 --> 00:21:04,320
bring us to where we are now.

334
00:21:05,670 --> 00:21:06,560
Sure. Well,

335
00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:11,240
we have to go way back to the
fourth century on what was then

336
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,040
Palestine. Um,

337
00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:17,360
there was a skeleton that
was found in a cave in

338
00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:22,840
Bemish, uh, which is about midway
between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Um,

339
00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:24,320
in this cave,

340
00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:29,160
there was the skeleton of what
appeared to be a 14 year old, uh,

341
00:21:29,410 --> 00:21:34,240
young woman who apparently
died in childbirth.

342
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:38,840
Um, in her pelvis was an
undelivered full-term fetus.

343
00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:40,800
Uh, next to her,

344
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,800
there was this carbonized
fragment of material that when

345
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,960
analyzed showed Delta A T H C.
Now, as I mentioned previously,

346
00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:54,800
that's more heat stable
than, um, Delta nine. Uh,

347
00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:59,800
so the fact that it was there indicates
that this was psychoactive material that

348
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,800
apparently had been burned. And the, um,

349
00:22:05,420 --> 00:22:10,360
the analysis of the situation
was that this cannabis was

350
00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:15,120
burned in an effort to aid
delivery of the the baby.

351
00:22:15,780 --> 00:22:18,400
Um, which in this instance
didn't work. However,

352
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:23,720
there's been thousands of years
of history of successful use

353
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,400
of cannabis for this purpose. So that's
the first Delta eight I know about.

354
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:33,760
Then we've gotta go
clear up to about 1942.

355
00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:38,760
There was an American scientist
named Roger Adams, uh,

356
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:43,480
who did a lot of work in
analysis and synthesis related to

357
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,440
cannabinoids. Um, actually in 1940,

358
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:52,160
he sort of almost got the
structure of cannabidiol. Uh,

359
00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:55,720
so he had a bunch of this and
synthesized what he called

360
00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:00,760
tetrahydrocannabinol from
it, but it wasn't pure. There
were at least two forms.

361
00:23:01,830 --> 00:23:05,120
What he found out was
when administered to dogs,

362
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:09,000
this made them wobbly on their
feet, what's called static ataxia.

363
00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:12,000
On then and earlier,

364
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:17,200
this was a test for cannabis
preparations As to their potency,

365
00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:20,080
he took some of this material,

366
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,600
actually 30 milligrams of what
likely at this point was Delta A T H

367
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,080
C, put it in olive oil capsules,
and then tested these on,

368
00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:35,480
um, convicts in New York, 77 of them. Now,

369
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:40,400
this is interesting because I think
people will see the similarities

370
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:45,400
of effects to Delta nine. So
with the Delta eight capsules,

371
00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:50,840
um, they got onset orally
in 30 to 90 minutes. It,

372
00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:51,260
uh,

373
00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:55,120
peaked somewhere between three and a half
to five hours and was gone after seven

374
00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:59,400
hours. And the effects again, were
quite analogous to Delta nine.

375
00:23:59,790 --> 00:24:03,800
They had increased heart rate, a
little bit of increased blood pressure,

376
00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:07,840
faster breathing, their eyes got red, um,

377
00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:12,280
they got dry mouth, some got
wobbly on their feet. Um,

378
00:24:13,540 --> 00:24:16,880
you know, recognizing there was a
somewhat higher dose, some got anxious,

379
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:19,800
some were euphoric. Uh, they talked a lot,

380
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,960
it seemed to lower inhibition. Uh, they,

381
00:24:24,490 --> 00:24:28,120
those who were familiar
with the term felt high. Uh,

382
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,200
there were bursts of laughter
and some drowsiness. Um,

383
00:24:32,660 --> 00:24:37,480
and then they did experiments and showed
that with prolonged usage there was

384
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:41,040
tolerance, these psychoactive effects. Um,

385
00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:44,800
now interestingly, they
made a distinction in, uh,

386
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,240
humans between inmates and what they
called the high ranking individuals and

387
00:24:49,380 --> 00:24:54,120
industrialists who also tried this,
but the effects were quite the same.

388
00:24:54,660 --> 00:24:54,980
Uh,

389
00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:59,760
so it may show you that businessmen at
a high level aren't that different than

390
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,720
convicts <laugh>, but
enough political commentary,

391
00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:08,360
um, subsequently, uh,
some of the same material,

392
00:25:08,790 --> 00:25:13,200
15 milligrams of what
was likely delta A T H C,

393
00:25:13,820 --> 00:25:18,720
um, was again, used on
convicts in, uh, New York. Um,

394
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:23,240
this is part of what's called the
LaGuardia report that came out in 1944,

395
00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:28,840
but they used this to test bout withdrawal

396
00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:33,840
from, uh, narcotics, specifically
morphine or heroin. Um,

397
00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:38,480
and so they compared this 15
milligrams of delta A T H C,

398
00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:43,880
uh, to, uh, what was called
Magenis solution, which was just a,

399
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:48,200
a form of morphine. Um, anyway,

400
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,920
they found that, uh, this help with
the withdrawal reduce the symptoms,

401
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:57,560
uh, and people were able to leave
the hospital after treatment, uh,

402
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,160
seemingly in better condition than
those who got no treatment or got the,

403
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:04,720
the morphine substitute. Um,

404
00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:10,080
so they were able to eat on some
actually gained weight during withdrawal,

405
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,920
which is not what we usually
expect with opiates. Um,

406
00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:20,200
after that, we've gotta go clear
up to the 1960s, uh, at this point,

407
00:26:20,420 --> 00:26:20,640
uh,

408
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,480
professor Michelle Lemon and
his colleagues were working
out all the structures

409
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,920
of cannabis components from Hashish. Um,

410
00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:32,120
and so in 1963,

411
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:36,520
they figured out the absolute
structure of cannabidiol in 64,

412
00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:41,840
uh, Delta nine, T H C, uh, in 66. Um,

413
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:44,360
they showed that, um,

414
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:49,600
you could turn cannabidiol
into delta A T H C, uh,

415
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,360
through a chemical reaction.
Um, so, uh, two nasty things,

416
00:26:54,660 --> 00:26:58,960
um, heated together with
benzene and what's called ro,

417
00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:04,280
toluene snic acid, and they
could make delta A T H C. Um,

418
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:08,880
that and similar schemes
have come down to us, uh,

419
00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:11,280
in the current time, uh,

420
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:15,200
as a way to make delta A T H C from C B D.

421
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:21,000
And then there were some, some more
experiments that were done. Um,

422
00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:23,440
uh, again, in 66,

423
00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:28,560
it was shown that you could find
some tiny amounts of Delta eight in

424
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,600
fresh cannabis. Um,

425
00:27:31,420 --> 00:27:36,160
the Dean of American Cannabis
Studies in the sixties

426
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:39,720
and early seventies
with Leo Hollister, um,

427
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:45,000
he tested Delta A T H C
20 and 40 milligrams as

428
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,640
compared to 20 milligrams of
Delta nine. Interestingly,

429
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,360
they put this in chocolate cookies, um,

430
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:55,480
but the effects were
qualitatively very similar. Um,

431
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,200
euphoria, tranquility,
difficulty thinking, rapid
thoughts, decreased memory.

432
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:05,720
The timeframe he got was
onset in 30 to 90 minutes,

433
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:10,520
orally peaking after two and
a half to three hours on with

434
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,520
residual symptoms up to
five hours. Um, overall,

435
00:28:15,450 --> 00:28:20,080
again, there seemed to be a lower
psychoactivity head to head,

436
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:25,160
perhaps Delta eight being about
63% of the potency of Delta

437
00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:26,920
nine as I calculate it.

438
00:28:27,540 --> 00:28:32,200
And that might be in keeping with
what people have said previously. Um,

439
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,280
I previously mentioned the study of
Caral and Carlini in 1973 in Brazil.

440
00:28:37,810 --> 00:28:42,560
Their findings were really quite
similar, uh, to the others. Um,

441
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:46,920
they, uh, essentially thought it was, uh,

442
00:28:47,410 --> 00:28:52,080
about 30%, uh, less psychoactive,

443
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:57,440
um, and, uh, very careful
studies for the time. Um,

444
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:02,000
so, um, compared to what
we're doing now, uh, they're,

445
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,560
they're really valid
studies. Um, and after that,

446
00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:09,840
uh, really not much happened beyond, uh,

447
00:29:10,150 --> 00:29:13,200
Abraham off and mic study in 1995,

448
00:29:14,090 --> 00:29:17,000
clear up until a few years ago when, uh,

449
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,240
suddenly Delta eight appeared, um,

450
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:23,280
in great profusion, uh,

451
00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:27,200
as a way to get rid of surplus C B D.

452
00:29:28,930 --> 00:29:31,640
Right on. Well then, um,
that's actually a great setup.

453
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,920
That's where we start set two. So, um,

454
00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:38,640
thank you for that explanation of
those historical milestones. And, um,

455
00:29:38,850 --> 00:29:41,680
let's go ahead and take our break and
then when we, we come back, we'll,

456
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,640
we'll pick up right here. You
are listening to Shaping Fire,

457
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:49,360
and my guest today is neurologist and
cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo. And,

458
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you know, without these advertisers
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459
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494
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495
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496
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497
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498
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499
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500
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501
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502
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503
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504
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505
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506
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507
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508
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509
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510
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511
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512
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513
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514
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515
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516
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517
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518
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519
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520
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526
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531
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Email hotspot@shapingfire.com
to find out more.

551
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:51,840
Welcome back. You are listening to
Shaping Fire. I am your host Anglos,

552
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,920
and my guest today is neurologist and
canvas researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.

553
00:35:56,540 --> 00:36:00,560
So before the break, we were bringing
us up, uh, historically to, um,

554
00:36:01,270 --> 00:36:05,560
what is happening now where most
folks or nearly everyone, um,

555
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:10,920
who is incorporating, uh, Delta
eight T H C into their products,

556
00:36:11,180 --> 00:36:14,640
is doing so from Delta eight, um,

557
00:36:14,830 --> 00:36:17,600
that has been synthesized from C B D.

558
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,960
And a reminder that the reason why
they're not taking it directly from the

559
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,720
cannabis plant is because
the amounts are, um, so low,

560
00:36:27,140 --> 00:36:30,880
so barely there in trace
forms, um, that, uh,

561
00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:34,840
for both labor and financial reasons,

562
00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:39,040
trying to pull it out
of a great deal of, uh,

563
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,040
plant material just doesn't make sense.
Um, but because you can synthesize, uh,

564
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,880
C B D, excuse me, you can synthesize
Delta eight T H C from C B D,

565
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:53,000
um, and we had this huge glut of,

566
00:36:53,140 --> 00:36:57,720
of C B D on the market, um, just
what, three years ago now that the,

567
00:36:57,740 --> 00:37:00,960
the price of the, the, the
C B D raw bulk material,

568
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:06,000
the the bulk plant material was
so low that it made sense to pull

569
00:37:06,020 --> 00:37:06,640
out, uh,

570
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,480
cheap C b D out of these hemp
plants and then go to the lab and

571
00:37:11,610 --> 00:37:16,280
synthesize it into Delta eight
T H C, which, um, you know,

572
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,200
even though it's less
potent, um, uh, you know,

573
00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:25,240
there is a way to cause a high and
therefore is a way to make money. Um, so,

574
00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:30,800
uh, Ethan, what I'd like you to explain
right now, uh, it, it's kind of like a,

575
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,560
a a two part question. Um,

576
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,400
for a lot of us who don't
have lab experience,

577
00:37:36,820 --> 00:37:41,680
the idea of synthesizing
delta eight T H C from C B

578
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,520
D is kind of nothing but words.
And so I, if you could, um,

579
00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:48,360
you know, uh, you know,

580
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,920
generally explain what it means to do
that in the lab and kind of what that's

581
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:53,760
like, um,

582
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:58,120
so we can picture that in our heads
what it is to synthesize something. Um,

583
00:37:58,140 --> 00:38:02,320
and then, and then the second part, which
is I part of your answer is, is that,

584
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,640
um, the,

585
00:38:03,820 --> 00:38:08,400
the point of our concern about Delta
eight is that so many contaminants come

586
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,320
along with it from the synthesis process,

587
00:38:10,730 --> 00:38:14,080
which then gets passed down
to consumers. So this is,

588
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,160
this is the crux of the problem. And,

589
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,120
and I'd like you to explain the
synthesis and why there are contaminants,

590
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:21,333
why there are.

591
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:24,720
Sure. Yeah, I think that's
an important question.

592
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:29,480
So let's say that we have a
bunch of starting material. Uh,

593
00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:34,600
so this would be crystalline C
B D that originally came from

594
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,720
the plant, or e even could be
be from a synthetic source.

595
00:38:39,580 --> 00:38:44,080
So first this would be dissolved in
some kind of organic solvent. Now,

596
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,200
they often will use things
like hexane, which is, uh,

597
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,000
something you'd find in gasoline. Uh,
it's not something you'd wanna ingest.

598
00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:58,840
Uh, then it's heated in
the presence of an acid.

599
00:38:59,580 --> 00:39:04,440
And, uh, that, uh, closes a
ring on cannabidiol and, uh,

600
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,600
produces delta A T H
C. So that sounds fine,

601
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:14,880
except, um, then you've
gotta get rid of the solvent,

602
00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:19,760
um, presumably with some
kind of drying or evaporation

603
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,160
technique. But there always could
be residuals and, uh, you know,

604
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,640
that's a source of toxicity.

605
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:31,240
But the real problem here
is this isn't a one-to-one

606
00:39:31,350 --> 00:39:34,440
proposition. In other
words, you don't get, uh,

607
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:38,480
all the C B D turned only into, uh,

608
00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:42,320
delta A T c, rather, there
are all these other things.

609
00:39:42,980 --> 00:39:47,640
Now we're gonna get into some
fancy names here, Delta four eight,

610
00:39:48,020 --> 00:39:51,320
iso, T h C nine, Oxy,

611
00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:54,640
hexa Hydro Cannabinol, um,

612
00:39:55,580 --> 00:40:00,560
and even performing, uh, getting new
things that hadn't been discovered before,

613
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:04,600
like iso tetra hydro furan. Um,

614
00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:08,280
so these are things about which
we know little or nothing.

615
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:13,680
It may be that some of
these substances are okay.

616
00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:17,520
It may be that they're not,
they are potentially toxic.

617
00:40:17,870 --> 00:40:22,680
Some could be actually more
psychoactive than Delta nine, T H c.

618
00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:25,400
Um, and, you know,

619
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,640
probably get into some of other nasties
that have been found in Delta eight

620
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,560
products. But the bottom
line is this, basically,

621
00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:41,080
it is extremely unlikely
that any commercial product

622
00:40:41,550 --> 00:40:45,680
with Delta eight in it is
gonna only have that, uh,

623
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:50,800
will have these potentially
toxic byproducts and

624
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:55,040
potentially toxic solvent residues. Um,

625
00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:59,160
so basically, uh, if you're
using these products,

626
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,920
it's a crapshoot as to what's
really in their and what, uh,

627
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:09,000
bad effects they might have
either acutely or particularly

628
00:41:09,420 --> 00:41:11,200
if taken on a chronic basis.

629
00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:16,840
In most cases, uh, product
manufacturers who are using Delta eight,

630
00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:22,240
um, they, you know, they, they,
they get a test done that's, that's,

631
00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:26,160
you know, perhaps needed for their
state. But one way or another,

632
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,320
there's a testing test done at
some point of like, what, what the,

633
00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:33,420
the isolate is that they are, they are
purchasing or making and it's done.

634
00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:36,680
And they're like, oh, you
know, it looks good, but isn't,

635
00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:40,000
isn't the science that to find
any of these contaminants,

636
00:41:40,020 --> 00:41:44,840
you actually have to be using
standards to actually see them. And,

637
00:41:45,020 --> 00:41:47,520
and since there is all of this, you know,

638
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,480
chemical static in the,

639
00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:56,600
the isolate that is
the resultant that that

640
00:41:56,950 --> 00:42:01,840
many people may actually think they're
using an air quotes clean isolate

641
00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:05,360
of delta eight, but the, the, the,

642
00:42:05,420 --> 00:42:07,080
the costs are so preventative to,

643
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,080
to check for all of the toxic
items that, that, that that kind of

644
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,760
research is not being
done on their products.

645
00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:20,560
Uh, very likely not. So what
you said is quite right. Um,

646
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:24,720
so there is this blip on
a, a screen, uh, you know,

647
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,640
whatever kind of, uh, analytical
test is being done, well,

648
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:34,480
that's gonna remain unknown
unless you have a standard, um,

649
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,080
a pure chemical, um, that you've
used in your analysis, uh,

650
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:44,760
that tells you what it is. Um,
and for some of these compounds,

651
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,440
there aren't any standards. So, um,

652
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:50,200
in the analytical studies
that have been done,

653
00:42:50,310 --> 00:42:54,880
they figure it out using
advanced, uh, instrumentation,

654
00:42:55,580 --> 00:42:59,840
um, and comparison with the
literature. But, you know,

655
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,680
these are just not, uh,

656
00:43:02,030 --> 00:43:06,280
necessarily available in your friendly
neighborhood lab. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

657
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:10,120
Um, you know, I have
struggled a bit with this,

658
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:13,400
with the idea of Delta eight being, um,

659
00:43:14,430 --> 00:43:19,120
natural or a synthetic because
synthetic and natural both seem to,

660
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:25,120
um, be, uh, inexact
words. And, and, you know,

661
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,600
I originally learned about,
uh, Delta eight as a synthetic,

662
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,280
something that is not naturally occurring,
but the more I speak with scientists,

663
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:37,600
um, they say what, what you
have said, which is there's,

664
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,000
there's such a trace amount, uh, that,
that it does occur in the a plant.

665
00:43:42,050 --> 00:43:46,240
We're not exactly sure how it
occurs in the plant, but, but it's,

666
00:43:46,270 --> 00:43:50,120
it's there in trace amounts. But to, to,

667
00:43:50,660 --> 00:43:54,240
to say that delta eight is then natural

668
00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:57,720
seems to be a bit of a misnomer,

669
00:43:57,990 --> 00:44:02,920
because that's not the
delta eight that is used in,

670
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:07,800
uh, the market. What's used
for product manufacturing is,

671
00:44:08,340 --> 00:44:10,120
uh, I, I dare say,

672
00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:14,360
always going to be Delta eight
that's been synthesized from

673
00:44:14,590 --> 00:44:19,560
cannabidiol, which is synthetic
because it's not naturally occurring.

674
00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:23,120
And so I just wanted to hear
whatever your thoughts were on this,

675
00:44:23,260 --> 00:44:27,560
on these messy use of
synthetic versus natural for,

676
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:29,960
uh, in, in, in an isolate.

677
00:44:31,490 --> 00:44:35,000
Right. Well, uh, you know,
to keep it quite simple, uh,

678
00:44:35,230 --> 00:44:38,840
basically any consumer product, uh,

679
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,480
advertising itself as containing
Delta A T H C is of synthetic

680
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,480
origin and subject to all the
caveats and warnings that we've,

681
00:44:49,540 --> 00:44:54,160
uh, already discussed. Um, and
it gets worse from there. Um,

682
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:59,360
you know, some of these products
may contain Delta A T C O

683
00:44:59,710 --> 00:45:04,400
acetate. Um, there's a whole problem
with this group of compounds. The,

684
00:45:04,620 --> 00:45:08,840
um, asters, um, when these are vaporized,

685
00:45:09,540 --> 00:45:12,160
uh, they can produce
something called ketones,

686
00:45:12,730 --> 00:45:16,480
which are toxic to the
lungs and have been, uh,

687
00:45:16,890 --> 00:45:20,160
associated with, um, this, uh,

688
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:23,800
problem with the lungs
called E Valley, uh,

689
00:45:23,850 --> 00:45:28,600
which is an acronym for
something very ominous, uh,

690
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,480
called e-cigarette or vaping
product use associated lung

691
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:34,333
injury.

692
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:39,120
People may have heard of this
term in relation to the vitamin

693
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,160
E acetate scandal of a few
years ago where vitamin E

694
00:45:44,270 --> 00:45:49,080
acetate was put in vape pens
as sort of a carrier. Uh,

695
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,600
it had a consistency that
was sort of like, um, uh,

696
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,440
cannabis concentrates, um,
and, uh, was put in vape pens,

697
00:45:59,580 --> 00:46:00,520
but, uh,

698
00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:05,360
number of people were hospitalized
and there were some deaths due to

699
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,280
pulmonary damage, uh, from
this kind of compound on.

700
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,800
The same thing could happen
with any of these, uh,

701
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,240
acetates that, uh,

702
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:20,560
are sometimes seen as toxic
byproducts of delta A T H

703
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,760
C production. So actually, um,

704
00:46:26,010 --> 00:46:30,800
delta A T H C O acetate has
been demonstrated on, uh,

705
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:32,920
vape pens, something called Blue Dream.

706
00:46:33,310 --> 00:46:36,600
This is showed shown
by Benowitz at all, uh,

707
00:46:37,180 --> 00:46:41,920
an article earlier this year.
And they pointed out how, uh,

708
00:46:42,270 --> 00:46:43,600
this, uh,

709
00:46:44,170 --> 00:46:49,120
Delta eight T h c acetate when
subjected to heat produced this Keane,

710
00:46:49,130 --> 00:46:53,960
which again, is the lung
damaging compound. Um,

711
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,800
so the same thing potentially
could happen with any, uh,

712
00:46:58,090 --> 00:47:01,360
Delta eight vape pen, um,

713
00:47:01,820 --> 00:47:03,960
if it had similar contaminants.

714
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:08,040
Right on. So let's, let's tease
out that nuance a little bit,

715
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,160
because I think that it is, I
think that it's the crux of this,

716
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,040
essentially the entire episode, um, that,

717
00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:17,520
that Delta eight, um,

718
00:47:17,740 --> 00:47:22,600
in a perfect world where it was isolated

719
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,760
properly in a lab,

720
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:31,160
and then after the fact was cleaned up to

721
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:36,160
remove contaminants, which is a very,

722
00:47:36,620 --> 00:47:40,560
uh, lengthy and arduous
process and takes, you know,

723
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,760
advanced skills that as that
Delta eight as a medicine

724
00:47:46,070 --> 00:47:49,920
does have applications and does cause,

725
00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:51,480
you know,

726
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,440
a 60% euphoria effect
60% of what Delta nine

727
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,880
does. However, that's
not the world we live in.

728
00:47:59,940 --> 00:48:02,800
The world we live in is that, um,

729
00:48:03,370 --> 00:48:06,360
folks without enough experience are,

730
00:48:06,580 --> 00:48:09,480
are isolating Delta eight,

731
00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:11,600
not cleaning it up afterwards,

732
00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:15,120
maybe don't have the experience to
know everything that they, that,

733
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,840
that they need to be pulling out,
don't have the budget or the lab to,

734
00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:24,960
um, identify the toxic contaminants
and remove them and be,

735
00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:28,320
and then this is the Delta eight that is,

736
00:48:28,580 --> 00:48:33,120
is being dumped onto the market that's
being synthesized from C B D from hemp

737
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,920
from the last three years. And
this is what the problem is. So,

738
00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:41,520
so it's not scientifically
true Delta eight,

739
00:48:41,940 --> 00:48:46,880
the problem is in the reality that people
aren't putting out pure Delta eight,

740
00:48:47,140 --> 00:48:50,000
and it's actually got all this, um, these,

741
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,240
these extra contaminants in it.

742
00:48:53,980 --> 00:48:57,160
Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, quite right. I mean,

743
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,520
the way I'd put it
succinctly is Delta eight,

744
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,240
T H C, the molecule or
compound is not the problem.

745
00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:11,800
The problem is how that delta
eight T h c is produced.

746
00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:14,200
Um, and again,

747
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:19,320
the toxic byproducts and
solvent residues. So,

748
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:24,400
uh, again, don't blame the
compound compound's, all right?

749
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:29,760
But how it's made and available
to consumers is the problem. And,

750
00:49:29,980 --> 00:49:31,760
uh, potentially a very big one.

751
00:49:32,460 --> 00:49:36,400
Um, there was, uh, a popular
study from 2021 that,

752
00:49:36,510 --> 00:49:38,800
that looked at this case of, of,

753
00:49:38,980 --> 00:49:43,840
of Delta eight from C B D being
sprayed on Delta nine flour to make it

754
00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:48,520
more potent. And, and, and then
I believe subsequently they,

755
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,440
they were taking products from
the licensed market where there

756
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,640
should not be Delta eight,

757
00:49:56,620 --> 00:50:01,360
and there were all these products
that had Delta eight in it, um,

758
00:50:01,510 --> 00:50:04,400
kind of like, uh, to fortify the,

759
00:50:04,780 --> 00:50:08,920
the experience of the
regular Delta nine. So,

760
00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:11,320
so it it, it's like, uh, you know, a,

761
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,280
a fortified vitamin or a fortified alcohol
or something. It's like, it's like,

762
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,000
ah, we, we wanna make it more
strong, and so we're gonna,

763
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,200
we're gonna add something extra. And
so people are adding Delta eight.

764
00:50:22,860 --> 00:50:27,400
Um, and, and not mentioning it on the
label, because it's, in most states,

765
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:30,000
it's not supposed to be
in their licensed market,

766
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:34,960
but they add Delta eight so that their
product has what they think is an

767
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:37,720
improved experience. Can you, um,

768
00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:40,840
explain what the downside would be for,

769
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:46,000
for people to be buying products that
have got Delta eight in it without their

770
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:46,833
knowledge?

771
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:52,400
Uh, well, it's an unconscionable
practice and, um, uh,

772
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,960
I would condemn anyone who
engages in that kind of activity.

773
00:50:57,820 --> 00:51:02,400
Um, but beyond that, uh,
again, it's a matter of, uh,

774
00:51:03,220 --> 00:51:07,720
not knowing what you're getting,
the likelihood of overdose, uh,

775
00:51:07,940 --> 00:51:12,200
if in a vape pen, the
possibilities of lung damage. Um,

776
00:51:13,260 --> 00:51:16,560
uh, and you know, it's been demonstrated,

777
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,040
there've actually been studies that
show that the use rates of Delta eight

778
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:26,000
products are way higher in
states that have restrictive

779
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,960
cannabis policies as opposed
to those that have freer

780
00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:35,520
access to natural cannabis, uh, compounds.

781
00:51:36,220 --> 00:51:41,040
Um, so, um, and again,
this stuff is not, uh,

782
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:46,160
without risks. Um, there was a study
earlier this year, Simon et al,

783
00:51:46,820 --> 00:51:51,600
um, there's a reporting system at
the Food and Drug Administration for

784
00:51:51,980 --> 00:51:56,640
non-prescription drugs. It's
called the Fares, uh, system. Um,

785
00:51:56,820 --> 00:52:01,680
and they've had a massive increase in
reports associated with Delta eight

786
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,560
products. Um, just to give a rundown, uh,

787
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,880
33 deaths attributed to
Delta eight products, um,

788
00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:14,720
49 hospitalizations, 109 serious reports,

789
00:52:14,850 --> 00:52:18,800
41 non-serious. And this
one will surprise people.

790
00:52:20,170 --> 00:52:22,440
There were more respiratory issues,

791
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:27,000
problems with the lungs that were
reported for Delta A T H C products

792
00:52:27,310 --> 00:52:30,840
than any cannabis or hemp product.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,

793
00:52:31,260 --> 00:52:35,040
so that puts it in context. So
these things are not without risk.

794
00:52:35,740 --> 00:52:40,040
So this is quite in
contrast, um, to the claims,

795
00:52:40,820 --> 00:52:44,880
uh, that have sometimes been made. Um, uh,

796
00:52:45,570 --> 00:52:48,960
there was a, a paper
that was published, uh,

797
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,440
wouldn't have gotten past me
if I reviewed it, but in 2022,

798
00:52:52,820 --> 00:52:55,960
Kruger and Kruger published a study.

799
00:52:56,140 --> 00:53:00,600
It was just an online survey of
people using Delta eight products.

800
00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:06,040
Um, and, you know, they
reported, um, that, um,

801
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,080
I don't know how they made their
comparisons, it wouldn't be scientific,

802
00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:14,360
but they were reported Delta
eight was less intense, uh,

803
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:19,400
produced relaxation in euphoria
that it relieved pain, but also,

804
00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:23,480
uh, was associated with
short-term memory impairment. Um,

805
00:53:23,930 --> 00:53:27,920
there was a comment from one consumer
that got in the title of the paper,

806
00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:33,440
and the quote was, Delta Eat feels
like Delta nine's nicer young sibling.

807
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,200
Hmm. Um, and, um,

808
00:53:36,620 --> 00:53:40,600
that's just not borne
out by the figures. Um,

809
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:45,280
uh, and, you know, the conclusion
of the article was quote,

810
00:53:45,370 --> 00:53:50,000
Delta A T H C may provide much of
the experiential benefits of Delta

811
00:53:50,110 --> 00:53:53,360
nine T H C with lesser adverse effects.

812
00:53:53,820 --> 00:53:56,080
That's just plain wrong. Um,

813
00:53:56,420 --> 00:54:01,200
and never should have been in a
published scientific article. Um, and I,

814
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,680
I won't cast aspersions on the publisher,
but I could mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

815
00:54:06,380 --> 00:54:10,960
And I think that this adds a lot to
the confusion that we see amongst

816
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,120
consumers about Delta eight. Um, you know,

817
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:19,120
I kind of came into the Delta
eight understanding being
prejudiced against Delta

818
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:20,120
eight, I gotta admit,

819
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,280
because I was only ever seeing
it in really low quality

820
00:54:25,170 --> 00:54:29,880
unlicensed market products
that were very low priced

821
00:54:30,220 --> 00:54:34,040
in, um, uh, states where
cannabis wasn't legal.

822
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:36,880
And let's be clear off
the top that, that, um,

823
00:54:37,060 --> 00:54:41,320
the fact that it's unlicensed doesn't
actually bother me. Um, you know,

824
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,000
we talk a lot about, a lot about, um,

825
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,800
individual patient freedoms and to
grow your own, um, on this show.

826
00:54:48,340 --> 00:54:52,840
But, but what does get me is when
a product is of crappy, uh, um,

827
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,520
quality period, whether it's in the
licensed or in the unlicensed market.

828
00:54:56,620 --> 00:55:01,440
And so I would, when, when I first
started seeing Delta eight, it was in,

829
00:55:01,620 --> 00:55:06,440
you know, the, these states and, and,
you know, $10 vape cartridges in really,

830
00:55:06,860 --> 00:55:10,040
you know, bad packaging. And you
could just tell like, oh man,

831
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,880
somebody's gonna get really sick from
this stuff. And then they did. You know,

832
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:15,960
and, and so, um,

833
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,880
certainly there are products in the
unlicensed market that are, are quality,

834
00:55:19,980 --> 00:55:23,200
but certainly that's, that's not
most of them, most of them are,

835
00:55:23,260 --> 00:55:28,120
are low quality. And, and
because there, there are papers,

836
00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:31,440
um, like the one you just referred to, um,

837
00:55:31,710 --> 00:55:35,960
that product manufacturers can grasp
on, grasp onto and say, Hey, look,

838
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,520
here's a study that says that
you know, it's safe and good.

839
00:55:40,180 --> 00:55:43,720
It creates enough confusion
in the market, um, where,

840
00:55:43,890 --> 00:55:47,040
where people don't, are, aren't educated,

841
00:55:47,300 --> 00:55:51,040
and so they buy what they can
afford. And so these products are,

842
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,440
are finding themselves more into,
uh, states that are not legal,

843
00:55:55,660 --> 00:55:59,680
and then people who are low income,
which is, you know, such a drag. Um,

844
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:02,560
I also found it interesting that, um,

845
00:56:02,990 --> 00:56:07,840
there's an a s t N white paper in 2021
pointing out that the instructions for

846
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,280
synthesizing delta eight are
easily found on YouTube. Um,

847
00:56:12,540 --> 00:56:16,720
but it's, it's, it's not as simple
as it's often presented on YouTube.

848
00:56:17,710 --> 00:56:21,560
Most people don't have the,
the skills to do it safely,

849
00:56:22,140 --> 00:56:25,880
and the study says it results in
wildly unintended consequences.

850
00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:30,760
So are those unintended
consequences the same, um, uh,

851
00:56:31,290 --> 00:56:34,840
toxic components that we've
already referred to? Or, or is it,

852
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,280
is something even further than that?

853
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:39,760
Uh, no, that's it. Uh, you know,

854
00:56:39,950 --> 00:56:42,640
basically they referred in that, uh,

855
00:56:42,730 --> 00:56:47,160
white paper to acetic acid
available in your kitchen. Uh,

856
00:56:47,310 --> 00:56:50,360
translating that means vinegar. So there,

857
00:56:50,450 --> 00:56:54,960
there would be ways of making
this with vinegar and heat. Um,

858
00:56:55,260 --> 00:56:58,240
but again, um, you know,

859
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,120
I don't trust a lab to do this properly.

860
00:57:04,420 --> 00:57:08,880
Why would we have any
inkling that someone, uh,

861
00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:10,040
doing this in their,

862
00:57:10,180 --> 00:57:15,040
as a kitchen chemist would have
better luck in what they produce? Um,

863
00:57:15,260 --> 00:57:16,760
no one should ever try this.

864
00:57:18,290 --> 00:57:22,720
Right on. So, um, to, to, to
wrap us up here in set two,

865
00:57:23,260 --> 00:57:26,160
um, and I, and I know we're putting
a pretty sharp point on this, but I,

866
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,360
I don't think that we can put too
sharp of a point on it. You know,

867
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,520
a lot of people say, you know,
Hey, Delta eight is in the plant.

868
00:57:32,730 --> 00:57:35,400
We've been using the plant for,
you know, thousands of years.

869
00:57:36,130 --> 00:57:39,840
Delta eight has a natural
or origin and therefore,

870
00:57:39,900 --> 00:57:44,240
and natural products are
safe. And therefore they
say that Delta eight in the,

871
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,440
in their products is fine. But,

872
00:57:46,660 --> 00:57:49,040
but that's just not the right
way to think about it, is it?

873
00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:50,740
No.

874
00:57:50,740 --> 00:57:55,640
No. Alright, so, um,
let's wrap up here in, uh,

875
00:57:55,860 --> 00:57:57,960
set three. Um, we're gonna start, uh,

876
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,680
talking about some of the unexpected
attributes of Delta eight.

877
00:58:03,140 --> 00:58:06,200
And, you know, some of the
interesting questions about, uh,

878
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,240
Delta eight and how to think about
it, that, that just haven't, um,

879
00:58:09,540 --> 00:58:10,640
fit into the show so far.

880
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,720
It's gonna be kind of a hodgepodge of
interesting Delta eight topics, I guess.

881
00:58:14,460 --> 00:58:17,680
So, uh, let's go ahead and take, um, our
second short break and be right back.

882
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:19,440
You are listening to Shaping Fire,

883
00:58:19,500 --> 00:58:23,440
and my guest today is neurologist and
cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.

884
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,860
As cannabis regulations become more
demanding and consumers become more

885
00:58:30,220 --> 00:58:30,400
educated,

886
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,260
it is increasingly important to avoid
the use of chemical pesticides when

887
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:35,333
cultivating cannabis.

888
00:58:35,790 --> 00:58:39,140
Beneficial insects have been used
for decades by the greenhouse,

889
00:58:39,140 --> 00:58:42,140
vegetable and ornamental
plant industry. And today,

890
00:58:42,210 --> 00:58:46,020
many cannabis cultivators are moving
from sprays and chemicals to beneficial

891
00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:51,060
insects. Cott has the beneficial
insects, mites and nematodes,

892
00:58:51,430 --> 00:58:54,300
microbials, sticky cards
and air distribution units.

893
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,380
You need to partner with
nature to defend your garden.

894
00:58:57,970 --> 00:59:02,020
Whether you manage acres of canopy or
have a simple grow tent in your home,

895
00:59:02,660 --> 00:59:06,380
culprit is ready to help
answer your questions and
help you transition away from

896
00:59:06,660 --> 00:59:09,700
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897
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Since 1967,

898
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:17,620
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899
00:59:17,620 --> 00:59:21,140
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900
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Since the 1990s,

901
00:59:23,380 --> 00:59:27,080
Cobert has been a leader in cannabis
pest and disease control worldwide,

902
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:30,640
and have highly trained consultants
to assist you in Canada and the

903
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United States from coast to coast with
their global network of grower support,

904
00:59:35,570 --> 00:59:40,000
coper can help. Visit
coper.com, choose your country,

905
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:43,000
and get detailed
information. That's coper,

906
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,040
K O p p e r t.com.

907
00:59:46,860 --> 00:59:50,440
For the most up-to-date cannabis
related biological control information,

908
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:55,400
you can also check their Instagram
at Coper Canada. You know,

909
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,680
getting away from pesticides is good
for health and good for business,

910
00:59:58,860 --> 01:00:02,760
and Copart is ready to
help. Visit coper.com today.

911
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,930
Sometimes the topics I wanna share with
you are far too brief for an entire

912
01:00:08,930 --> 01:00:12,610
shaping fire episode. In those
instances, I post them to Instagram.

913
01:00:12,970 --> 01:00:17,970
I invite you to follow my two Instagram
profiles and participate online the

914
01:00:17,970 --> 01:00:21,730
Shaping Fire. Instagram has follow-up
posts to shaping fire episodes,

915
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:26,090
growing and processing best practices,
product trials, and of course,

916
01:00:26,730 --> 01:00:27,563
gorgeous flower photos.

917
01:00:27,990 --> 01:00:31,490
The Shang Lo Instagram follows My
travels on cannabis garden tours,

918
01:00:31,790 --> 01:00:34,050
my successes and failures
in my own garden.

919
01:00:34,850 --> 01:00:39,050
Insights and best practices from personal
grows everywhere and always gorgeous

920
01:00:39,070 --> 01:00:41,490
flower photos on both profiles.

921
01:00:41,490 --> 01:00:44,650
The emphasis is on sharing what I've
learned in a way that you can replicate it

922
01:00:44,650 --> 01:00:48,930
in your own garden, your own hash lab,
or for your own canna Apathic health.

923
01:00:49,230 --> 01:00:54,130
So I encourage you to follow at shaping
Fire and at Shingle los and join

924
01:00:54,130 --> 01:00:55,890
our online community on Instagram.

925
01:00:58,430 --> 01:01:02,450
The cannabis seed market is filled with
big name and hype breeders fighting to

926
01:01:02,450 --> 01:01:03,283
get your attention,

927
01:01:03,430 --> 01:01:06,810
and occasionally you discover a breeder
who is breeding because it is the only

928
01:01:06,810 --> 01:01:07,770
thing they care to do,

929
01:01:07,950 --> 01:01:10,330
and they would be doing it
even if they never made a dime.

930
01:01:11,150 --> 01:01:15,450
That's my friend Craig Hart saw who
makes seeds as magnetic genetics.

931
01:01:16,100 --> 01:01:19,890
Craig comes from five generations of
farmers and is earning his master's degree

932
01:01:19,890 --> 01:01:21,090
in horticulture right now.

933
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,850
He's been growing cannabis for 15
years and been breeding for nine.

934
01:01:25,550 --> 01:01:28,410
He hasn't sold many seeds because
he really isn't a sales guy,

935
01:01:28,590 --> 01:01:31,010
but I've personally been
growing his seeds for years,

936
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:34,650
and I know I can always rely on
his seeds to germinate, thrive,

937
01:01:34,830 --> 01:01:36,170
and smell and taste great.

938
01:01:36,970 --> 01:01:41,090
I suggested to Craig that
he should probably sell some
seeds and asked if he had

939
01:01:41,090 --> 01:01:44,010
enough stockpile to
bother. Much to my shock,

940
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:48,330
he was sitting on five full menus in
cold storage that he produced in the last

941
01:01:48,330 --> 01:01:51,130
two years and hadn't even
tried to sell any of 'em.

942
01:01:51,350 --> 01:01:55,130
He was simply too busy
breeding. Well, we, his friends,

943
01:01:55,130 --> 01:01:59,010
convinced him to make his damn seeds
available to the people, and now they are.

944
01:01:59,790 --> 01:02:01,050
For the first time anywhere,

945
01:02:01,070 --> 01:02:04,930
you can now buy magnetic genetic
seeds at Neptune Seed Bank and on

946
01:02:04,930 --> 01:02:06,090
strangely.io.

947
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,730
Neptune Seed Bank has just
picked up magnetic genetics
for a trial To gauge your

948
01:02:12,090 --> 01:02:15,610
interest, they are carrying
three strains from his mean mug,

949
01:02:16,290 --> 01:02:19,800
prominence and turpen menus,
which are exclusive to Neptune.

950
01:02:20,190 --> 01:02:22,320
It's an easy way to score his seeds.

951
01:02:23,020 --> 01:02:27,800
You can pick up those menus
plus his hillbilly, skunk,
and candy breath crosses,

952
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,000
and more on his profile
page on strangely.io.

953
01:02:31,940 --> 01:02:36,480
If you want very affordable seeds that
are exceptional quality with rare terpene

954
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:37,920
profiles from a good guy,

955
01:02:38,460 --> 01:02:42,520
go to neptune seed
bank.com or strain lee.io.

956
01:02:43,310 --> 01:02:46,680
Sometimes it is fun to buy the hype
thing from the brand you admire,

957
01:02:47,020 --> 01:02:50,320
but when you're ready to buy the
strain you'll love from an obscure mad

958
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,000
scientist, you're ready
for magnetic genetics,

959
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:58,320
magnetic genetics.org and on
Instagram Magnetic Genetics.

960
01:02:58,950 --> 01:03:02,560
Welcome back. You are listening to
Shaping Fire. I'm your host Shang Los,

961
01:03:02,620 --> 01:03:06,840
and my guest today is neurologist and
cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.

962
01:03:07,140 --> 01:03:09,880
So here in the last set, we're
gonna talk mostly about, um,

963
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,560
things that like didn't really
fit in the rest of the show,

964
01:03:12,660 --> 01:03:15,280
and there's some really
interesting stuff, uh, uh,

965
01:03:15,930 --> 01:03:18,680
about Delta eight that we
haven't touched on yet. And,

966
01:03:18,740 --> 01:03:22,680
and the first thing I wanna, uh, uh,
talk about Ethan is that, you know,

967
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:27,680
we mentioned, um, early way back in
the first set that, um, that, uh,

968
01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:32,920
Delta eight works effectively as an
antiemetic in, uh, kids who are on,

969
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,360
uh, experiencing chemotherapy, meaning
that it decreases their nausea.

970
01:03:37,230 --> 01:03:41,720
Have we found anything else
that Delta eight can do? Well,

971
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,040
I guess anything at all, because,

972
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,880
because Delta nine may actually be
better than Delta eight for this,

973
01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:49,280
but have we found anything that
Delta eight can do that, uh,

974
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:54,040
that naturally occurring,
um, Delta nine, T H C,

975
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,600
and the other naturally occurring
cannabinoids don't do better. Is there,

976
01:03:57,660 --> 01:04:01,760
is there anything unique that Delta
eight can do that the other cannabinoids

977
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:02,593
can't do?

978
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,820
Uh, yes, and it would be, its
stability to heat mm-hmm. Uh,

979
01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:12,940
is demonstrated in the
ancient sample. And, um,

980
01:04:13,820 --> 01:04:17,140
I suppose there could be some
jurisdictions around the,

981
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,900
the world where they had a
law that specifically cited

982
01:04:21,910 --> 01:04:26,540
Delta nine T H C and didn't
cite, uh, Delta eight,

983
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:31,220
and it might be possible there to
use Delta eight preferentially.

984
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:36,660
Um, but you know, that's a, a legal
point, not a medical point. Mm-hmm.

985
01:04:36,700 --> 01:04:40,540
<affirmative>, so it's
thermal stability is it's, um,

986
01:04:40,850 --> 01:04:41,900
main selling point.

987
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,740
Is the thermal stability something that
is actually a health benefit or is that

988
01:04:46,810 --> 01:04:50,620
more a Oh, because it's
more thermally stable,

989
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,900
it makes it a good choice for
some particular pharmaceutical
products that have

990
01:04:54,900 --> 01:04:55,733
gotta be heated.

991
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:00,020
It would be that kind of situation or
shelf life issues mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

992
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:00,873
but, um,

993
01:05:01,140 --> 01:05:05,100
I don't see this as being commercially
developed in any capacity.

994
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:06,330
Um.

995
01:05:06,330 --> 01:05:08,700
Meaning now or in the
future, or both? Yeah.

996
01:05:08,700 --> 01:05:10,500
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, because, um,

997
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,060
to make a Delta eight
prescription product,

998
01:05:14,330 --> 01:05:18,240
it's going to have to go through
years of testing and, uh,

999
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:23,120
hundreds of millions of dollars in
expenditure to get it through phase one to

1000
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,720
three clinical trials. I don't
see anybody doing that. Mm-hmm.

1001
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:26,870
<Affirmative>,

1002
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:31,280
because the promise of it doesn't seem
to be justif justify that much time and

1003
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:32,300
resources. Yeah.

1004
01:05:32,300 --> 01:05:37,160
Two points. One is it wouldn't
be worth the investment, and two,

1005
01:05:37,710 --> 01:05:42,360
it's never gonna do what herbal
cannabis in a proper preparation can do.

1006
01:05:42,580 --> 01:05:43,413
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

1007
01:05:43,580 --> 01:05:47,640
So this would be the place where I
typically invoke the entourage effect.

1008
01:05:49,100 --> 01:05:50,840
Um, go ahead. Why don't
you go ahead and invoke it.

1009
01:05:50,900 --> 01:05:52,480
For those who aren't
familiar with it, <laugh>.

1010
01:05:53,340 --> 01:05:56,080
Um, there's nothing that pure T H C,

1011
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,680
whether delta nine or delta eight
can do that can't be done better by a

1012
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,120
properly cons constituted, um,

1013
01:06:04,380 --> 01:06:08,120
herbal cannabis preparation.
Um, you know, uh,

1014
01:06:08,220 --> 01:06:12,680
we really benefit from having additional
cannabinoids and terpenoids that

1015
01:06:13,100 --> 01:06:16,520
reduce the side effect profile
of T H C in either form,

1016
01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:22,000
and it makes for a better, more
tolerable and more effective medicine.

1017
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:24,120
Excellent. Excellent. We always,

1018
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,000
we always love to support the whole
plant medicine thinking here on the show,

1019
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,280
<laugh>. So, you know, uh,
during shaping fire, episode 14,

1020
01:06:31,540 --> 01:06:35,400
all the way back five years ago
with, uh, Dr. Greg Germond, uh,

1021
01:06:35,420 --> 01:06:40,320
we discussed how synthetic cannabinoids
can sometimes be used in the lab as

1022
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:41,760
a tool. So,

1023
01:06:41,900 --> 01:06:46,240
so not as something that a human is
actually going to ingest for a medical

1024
01:06:46,380 --> 01:06:47,213
reason,

1025
01:06:47,220 --> 01:06:51,560
but something that can be used
in the lab as a tool to do,

1026
01:06:52,140 --> 01:06:55,520
you know, one or other
experiment or process. Um,

1027
01:06:55,530 --> 01:06:59,840
would you explain briefly how synthetic
cannabinoids can be useful in a lab

1028
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:00,500
setting?

1029
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:05,080
And then also whether you're aware of
any useful tool that Delta eight has

1030
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:06,240
become in the lab?

1031
01:07:08,020 --> 01:07:09,840
Uh, okay. Well, you know,

1032
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,520
there have actually have been hundreds
of synthetic cannabinoids that have been

1033
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:14,560
used in the lab.

1034
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:19,480
Some of these are extremely
potent as compared to Delta nine,

1035
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:21,480
T h C. Um,

1036
01:07:21,490 --> 01:07:26,240
those can be useful in pointing
out pathways or the patterns of,

1037
01:07:27,260 --> 01:07:31,000
uh, the receptors in a given
organ, especially the brain.

1038
01:07:31,620 --> 01:07:35,160
So they're just tools that
are used that way, and they,

1039
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,920
they're often used in animal
studies. Uh, believe it or not,

1040
01:07:39,110 --> 01:07:43,880
it's easier to acquire a lot of these
synthetics than it is to get per

1041
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,360
permission to use Delta nine,
um, in such experiments.

1042
01:07:48,460 --> 01:07:52,520
But we have to be very careful.
Um, rats are not humans.

1043
01:07:53,260 --> 01:07:55,240
And in particular, uh,

1044
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,840
there've been some distinctions
in the affinity of, uh,

1045
01:07:59,930 --> 01:08:04,720
Delta eight for cannabinoid
receptors in certain species

1046
01:08:04,860 --> 01:08:09,080
of animals as compared
to humans. Um, so, um,

1047
01:08:10,020 --> 01:08:11,960
uh, I hate to say this,

1048
01:08:12,220 --> 01:08:16,200
but you can only learn so much from
animal studies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um,

1049
01:08:16,540 --> 01:08:21,160
that's true. Um, there are
distinct differences and, uh,

1050
01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:26,240
any such literature has to be
read with that in mind, that,

1051
01:08:26,620 --> 01:08:31,560
um, that's interesting, but it may
not translate to human clinical use.

1052
01:08:32,740 --> 01:08:35,160
Um, do you think that there are, um,

1053
01:08:35,290 --> 01:08:38,640
folks that are using Delta
eight as a tool in the lab, or,

1054
01:08:38,700 --> 01:08:41,880
or is that not necessarily one of
the synthetic cannabinoids that,

1055
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:43,960
that has use in a lab in that way?

1056
01:08:44,460 --> 01:08:48,960
Um, it has been used, I wouldn't say a
great deal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,

1057
01:08:49,020 --> 01:08:53,560
but again, it, uh, might have
to do with things like, uh,

1058
01:08:53,980 --> 01:08:57,280
its stability as compared to Delta nine.

1059
01:08:57,690 --> 01:09:00,720
Right on. So, um, in, uh,

1060
01:09:01,230 --> 01:09:05,240
some of the studies that
have, uh, grabbed, um,

1061
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,520
products from the licensed market, um,

1062
01:09:09,180 --> 01:09:13,240
as well as our general awareness of
products in the unlicensed market,

1063
01:09:13,940 --> 01:09:18,760
we find that some people
will fail drug tests, um,

1064
01:09:18,910 --> 01:09:22,400
because they've had, uh, Delta eight, um,

1065
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:27,600
with Delta eight T H C, and,
and, uh, folks think that,

1066
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:30,760
oh, it's got Delta eight,
it doesn't have, you know,

1067
01:09:31,710 --> 01:09:36,120
real cannabis in it, if you will.
These people will say, and so and so,

1068
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,840
they think it's safe to use, but yet
they still, um, fail drug tests for,

1069
01:09:40,980 --> 01:09:45,560
you know, their trucking job or whatever.
So will you just explain briefly why,

1070
01:09:46,020 --> 01:09:48,320
um, uh, Delta eight is, is,

1071
01:09:48,660 --> 01:09:52,040
is not safe for people who
have to take drug tests?

1072
01:09:52,900 --> 01:09:55,160
Uh, sure. You know, as
we said in the beginning,

1073
01:09:55,660 --> 01:10:00,240
the only difference is where this double
bond is that makes a difference between

1074
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,880
Delta eight and delta nine. So in, um,

1075
01:10:04,810 --> 01:10:09,280
analytical assays for urine testing

1076
01:10:10,190 --> 01:10:13,680
metabolites of T H C,
they're gonna show up anyway.

1077
01:10:14,100 --> 01:10:19,080
So the bottom line is if you're
getting urine testing for your job,

1078
01:10:19,490 --> 01:10:22,640
don't use Delta eight. Simple. Right.

1079
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,240
On easy to the point. Um, you
know, a, a lot of people, uh,

1080
01:10:26,340 --> 01:10:30,840
who are looking to defend, um,
uh, Delta eight, um, you know,

1081
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:35,240
as it's commercially made right
now as an agricultural product, um,

1082
01:10:35,820 --> 01:10:37,480
you know, they, they say, listen, it's an,

1083
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:39,600
it's an agricultural product
like anything else, and,

1084
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,760
and we should be allowed to use it. Um,

1085
01:10:42,940 --> 01:10:46,800
but on your webinar the other day
it was mentioned why, you know,

1086
01:10:47,010 --> 01:10:50,520
Delta eight doesn't make sense to
consider it an agricultural product. And,

1087
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:51,920
and would you repeat that analysis?

1088
01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:54,920
Uh, sure. You know, uh,

1089
01:10:55,500 --> 01:11:00,080
it had its first origin and a plant
grown in the ground, uh, presumably,

1090
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:05,680
although, um, some Delta eight
may be made from synthetic C B D,

1091
01:11:05,940 --> 01:11:10,800
but once it gets into the
lab and subjected to these

1092
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,360
chemical transmogrification,
it's not natural.

1093
01:11:14,990 --> 01:11:16,960
It's not an agricultural product,

1094
01:11:17,190 --> 01:11:21,840
it's a synthetic product and one
that invariably is contaminated.

1095
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:28,190
Right on. So, so is, is there a, is
there a scientific threshold point where,

1096
01:11:28,770 --> 01:11:30,030
um, where a,

1097
01:11:30,230 --> 01:11:34,350
a molecule that started out in a
plant is now considered a synthetic?

1098
01:11:34,500 --> 01:11:39,110
Because I'm, I'm figuring that
somewhere along that chain of synthesis,

1099
01:11:39,650 --> 01:11:43,670
um, you know, it's, it's officially
no longer an agricultural product.

1100
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:48,230
Does that threshold exist or
is that, um, more, um, um,

1101
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:49,553
subjective?

1102
01:11:50,050 --> 01:11:54,870
Um, uh, anytime you've changed one
thing into something else that's,

1103
01:11:55,050 --> 01:11:57,070
uh, no longer agricultural.

1104
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:02,470
Right on. Fair enough. Um, we've
had you on shaping fire, uh,

1105
01:12:02,470 --> 01:12:07,190
before to talk about cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome. And, um,

1106
01:12:07,260 --> 01:12:08,990
this is the likelihood that,

1107
01:12:09,150 --> 01:12:13,870
that someone will be especially sensitive
to cannabis causing a whole range of

1108
01:12:14,190 --> 01:12:17,070
negative symptoms. Um, have we seen, um,

1109
01:12:17,070 --> 01:12:21,350
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome
from, um, being caused by d uh,

1110
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:22,310
Delta eight products?

1111
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:26,630
Yes. In 2021, there was a case report. Uh,

1112
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:30,950
this is a woman who'd had prior gastric
surgery and came in with nausea and

1113
01:12:31,230 --> 01:12:32,010
vomiting.

1114
01:12:32,010 --> 01:12:36,910
So she got a CAT scan to make sure that
nothing was wrong with the surgery. Um,

1115
01:12:37,330 --> 01:12:42,190
and her nausea and vomiting wasn't
responding to the usual approaches and

1116
01:12:42,190 --> 01:12:44,350
drugs that they used. Uh,

1117
01:12:44,350 --> 01:12:48,750
it turned out she'd been using
Delta A T H C gummies. Um,

1118
01:12:49,540 --> 01:12:54,270
they suspected she had cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome and then

1119
01:12:54,500 --> 01:12:58,590
responded to drugs that seemed
to work better there. Uh,

1120
01:12:58,950 --> 01:13:03,470
specifically Halo Peritol, which
is a major tranquilizer, um, and,

1121
01:13:03,810 --> 01:13:08,230
um, capus, anointment on the skin. So, uh,

1122
01:13:08,420 --> 01:13:13,270
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome
will be caused by anything, uh,

1123
01:13:13,900 --> 01:13:16,550
whether delta nine, delta eight,

1124
01:13:16,690 --> 01:13:19,750
or synthetic cannabinoids that are, uh,

1125
01:13:20,070 --> 01:13:25,070
stimulating the CB one receptor,
the main psychoactive receptor,

1126
01:13:26,090 --> 01:13:29,310
uh, for cannabinoids mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. Um, so yes,

1127
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:33,590
Delta eight can be
associated with, uh, c H s.

1128
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:38,750
Right on. Thank you. So, uh, as we wrap
up here at the end of set three, um,

1129
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:44,270
I think I wanna wrap up by reading
a couple of, um, um, quotes from,

1130
01:13:44,610 --> 01:13:49,270
uh, the, the, uh, c Huah
study from 2021. Uh,

1131
01:13:49,370 --> 01:13:53,990
we believe in unicorns and Delta eight,
uh, from the cannabis scientist. Um,

1132
01:13:54,250 --> 01:13:57,470
and then, and then, and then I'm gonna
ask you a question and, and, and we will,

1133
01:13:57,480 --> 01:14:02,070
we'll wrap up here. So, so here are a
couple quotes from, from that paper. Um,

1134
01:14:02,370 --> 01:14:04,110
the problem is not with Delta eight,

1135
01:14:04,110 --> 01:14:07,990
but the unregulated distribution
of synthetic contaminated products,

1136
01:14:09,130 --> 01:14:11,370
at least Walter White
was a chemistry teacher.

1137
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:15,550
Delta eight has become a
money printing machine,

1138
01:14:17,350 --> 01:14:21,570
but when I show producers what it is in
their sample, they don't stop making it,

1139
01:14:21,570 --> 01:14:22,970
and they don't stop distributing it.

1140
01:14:22,970 --> 01:14:26,170
They just go to another lab who will
not acknowledge the contaminants found.

1141
01:14:27,850 --> 01:14:32,710
Um, this really points to, oh,
so I'm no longer quoting anymore.

1142
01:14:32,740 --> 01:14:36,950
This is my voice now. Um,
this really points to the,

1143
01:14:37,210 --> 01:14:41,070
the sheisty nature of a particular, um,

1144
01:14:41,070 --> 01:14:44,590
section of the, um, unlicensed market,

1145
01:14:44,810 --> 01:14:48,390
but even some of the licensed market,
because we know Delta eight has,

1146
01:14:48,410 --> 01:14:53,110
has snuck into state
level, um, legal markets.

1147
01:14:53,770 --> 01:14:55,910
And, and let's finish with
this, Ethan, you know,

1148
01:14:55,950 --> 01:14:59,310
I know you're very passionate
about this, um, as a, you know,

1149
01:14:59,310 --> 01:15:04,230
as a medical doctor and also as
a, uh, cannabis researcher, uh,

1150
01:15:04,290 --> 01:15:09,270
in search for the truth. Um, for
folks that are making these, um,

1151
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:13,950
Delta eight, um, products that
we know are all coming from,

1152
01:15:14,210 --> 01:15:17,430
uh, synthesis from C B D, um, you know,

1153
01:15:17,580 --> 01:15:21,670
what message would you
have for them, um, uh, uh,

1154
01:15:21,730 --> 01:15:25,430
in encouragement, uh, to perhaps
reconsider their approach?

1155
01:15:27,690 --> 01:15:28,870
Um, again,

1156
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:34,070
I would state that there's nothing
that Delta eight does that can't

1157
01:15:34,210 --> 01:15:39,030
be done more safely and effectively
with a natural cannabis product.

1158
01:15:39,970 --> 01:15:44,390
Now, that may not be available
to everyone, but, um, you know,

1159
01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:45,830
I hope that, uh,

1160
01:15:46,010 --> 01:15:50,630
the laws will change and that we
see this commerce and Delta eight

1161
01:15:50,820 --> 01:15:54,670
disappear. Because to repeat
what I said earlier, uh,

1162
01:15:54,730 --> 01:15:58,750
the Delta eight craze is a
byproduct of prohibition.

1163
01:15:59,940 --> 01:16:02,830
Well said. And, and at
the end, this problem, um,

1164
01:16:03,180 --> 01:16:07,270
sits at the feet of our legislators
who are choosing to drag their feet

1165
01:16:07,740 --> 01:16:12,710
instead of, instead of taking,
um, real, um, legalization action.

1166
01:16:13,820 --> 01:16:17,190
Well, thank you, Ethan. Um, it's
always a pleasure to have you on, uh,

1167
01:16:17,190 --> 01:16:20,190
shaping fire and, um,
especially with such a, uh,

1168
01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:23,270
a nuanced topic as this, um,

1169
01:16:23,420 --> 01:16:27,190
that is just not getting enough
attention. I appreciate you taking, um,

1170
01:16:27,190 --> 01:16:30,710
your time and your expertise and
going, uh, through it with us, um,

1171
01:16:31,010 --> 01:16:34,510
so that we too, as, as
cannabis enthusiasts,

1172
01:16:34,510 --> 01:16:37,350
can understand the nuances and, you know,

1173
01:16:37,650 --> 01:16:41,750
use it in our own lives as well as
the, the people who we care for.

1174
01:16:41,850 --> 01:16:42,683
So thank you.

1175
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,190
Thank you for the opportunity.

1176
01:16:46,650 --> 01:16:51,270
So my friends, um, if you are interested
in, uh, learning more about Dr.

1177
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:54,630
Russo, there's a few ways to do
that. Um, first and foremost,

1178
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:57,830
I highly recommend, uh, you check out, um,

1179
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,390
Ethan Russo's library of, uh,

1180
01:17:01,540 --> 01:17:06,070
work and research@ethanrusso.org,

1181
01:17:06,530 --> 01:17:11,120
and then click on the library tab. Um,
you can also find a link to this, um,

1182
01:17:11,420 --> 01:17:15,600
on the shaping fire.com website
for today's episode. Um,

1183
01:17:15,860 --> 01:17:20,080
you can also, uh, learn
about, uh, Ethan Russo's, uh,

1184
01:17:20,190 --> 01:17:22,960
work bringing, uh, cannabis into, uh,

1185
01:17:22,970 --> 01:17:26,840
legal and healthful cannabis
products and, and different, um,

1186
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,640
projects@credoscience.com.

1187
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:36,280
That's c R E D O science.com.
And then finally,

1188
01:17:36,500 --> 01:17:41,400
um, if you have a burning question or
a comment that is only going to be, uh,

1189
01:17:41,660 --> 01:17:45,120
uh, for Ethan Russo,
um, you can email him at

1190
01:17:45,490 --> 01:17:50,280
ethanRusso@comcast.net. Now, be realistic.

1191
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:52,440
You know, um, Ethan,
for all these years, uh,

1192
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:56,480
he does his best to get back with
everybody, but he is, you know,

1193
01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:00,600
still an active researcher and he's,
he's flying around the world to give, um,

1194
01:18:01,180 --> 01:18:04,960
to give lectures. So, so it might
take him a while to get back with you,

1195
01:18:04,980 --> 01:18:07,880
so be realistic. But, um, I think
he does a pretty good job of,

1196
01:18:07,900 --> 01:18:12,120
of getting back with everybody. Finally,
if you want to learn more from Dr.

1197
01:18:12,330 --> 01:18:13,020
Russo, um,

1198
01:18:13,020 --> 01:18:17,000
he has joined us several times on
shaping fire over the last five years.

1199
01:18:17,460 --> 01:18:20,160
And perhaps one of these,
uh, will interest you, um,

1200
01:18:20,220 --> 01:18:22,800
all the way back five
years ago, episode, uh,

1201
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:27,360
22 on treating traumatic brain
injury with cannabis and psilocybin

1202
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:31,880
mushrooms, episodes 11
and 27 about his, uh,

1203
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:35,320
famous research papers on
cannabinoids and terpenoids,

1204
01:18:35,790 --> 01:18:40,480
episode number 67, about treating
migraines with mushrooms and cannabis,

1205
01:18:41,310 --> 01:18:44,400
episode 80 on cannabis
Hyperemesis syndrome,

1206
01:18:44,750 --> 01:18:49,280
episode 83 on Cannabigerol,
C B G. And then, um,

1207
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:54,160
recently and, uh, and very
heartfully episode 103, um,

1208
01:18:54,300 --> 01:18:58,400
in a memorial episode about the life's
work of, uh, the very respected Dr.

1209
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:03,200
Rael Muslum. And of course, on the,
there's the Shaping Fire, uh, sessions,

1210
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:06,240
a 10 part series on the
Shaping Fire YouTube channel.

1211
01:19:06,900 --> 01:19:10,280
You can find more episodes of the
Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the

1212
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,560
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1213
01:19:13,900 --> 01:19:14,760
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1214
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:17,400
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1215
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:22,280
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1216
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:24,360
it too. On the Shaping Fire website,

1217
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:28,040
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1218
01:19:28,150 --> 01:19:32,240
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1219
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:34,680
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1220
01:19:35,300 --> 01:19:36,560
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1221
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:41,520
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1222
01:19:41,700 --> 01:19:43,320
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1223
01:19:43,820 --> 01:19:47,120
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1224
01:19:47,230 --> 01:19:48,880
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1225
01:19:49,430 --> 01:19:52,720
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1226
01:19:53,170 --> 01:19:56,560
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1227
01:19:56,860 --> 01:20:00,720
Thanks for listening to Shaping
Fire. I've been your host, Shang Los.