1 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,880 The radically dysfunctional American healthcare system programs us to get sick, 2 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:15,000 get on long-term prescriptions, and get some expensive body scans. 3 00:00:15,170 --> 00:00:19,680 Until we're outta money and benefits, our healthcare system is in shambles. 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,520 After the insurance company capture of independent hospitals and the 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,240 mismanagement of the Covid pandemic, 6 00:00:26,310 --> 00:00:29,960 more and more people are realizing that there is no one coming to save us. 7 00:00:30,170 --> 00:00:34,520 After a life of processed food, alcohol, stress, and poor sleep, 8 00:00:34,850 --> 00:00:39,680 there is no greater wealth than keeping your health or improving your health if 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:40,880 you are already at a deficit. 10 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:46,000 The vast majority of people find their way to cannabis medicine after Western 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,040 Medicine has failed them. For the 10 years I've been helping patients, 12 00:00:50,140 --> 00:00:54,200 nearly everyone who has approached me for direction and cannabis use has already 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,280 been spent dry by the healthcare system and given little to show for it. 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,440 Cannabis medicine is still considered a last resort for most folks. 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,680 I propose that we start looking more at cannabis as a preventative, 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,560 a potent source of stability, both physically and emotionally. 17 00:01:11,180 --> 00:01:15,240 For true longevity. Cannabis can take some time to bear fruits, 18 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:19,680 but the results from early and daily use of cannabis offers rewards that are 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,200 often described as miraculous by traditional doctors pairing daily 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:25,800 cannabinoids with whole foods, 21 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:29,240 and less alcohol could possibly be today's Fountain of youth. 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,940 If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently 23 00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:38,100 and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. 24 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:41,180 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, 25 00:01:41,210 --> 00:01:42,660 delivered right to your inbox, 26 00:01:42,670 --> 00:01:46,020 along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the week 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,180 and videos too. 28 00:01:47,750 --> 00:01:51,100 Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. 29 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:55,140 Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. Also, 30 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:58,500 we're giving away very cool prizes to folks who are signed up to receive the 31 00:01:58,500 --> 00:01:59,090 newsletter. 32 00:01:59,090 --> 00:02:02,180 There's nothing else you need to do to win except receive that newsletter. 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,540 So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter this week and be entered 34 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:09,340 into this month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. 35 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:14,600 You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I am your host, Shang Los. 36 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:20,560 My guest today is Neuroscientist and cannabinoid researcher Hunter Land PhD. 37 00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:24,920 Hunter Land is the Vice President of research and development at 38 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:26,320 Biopharmaceutical Research Company, 39 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:31,520 one of the few d e a Schedule one F D A compliant cannabinoid research and 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:32,480 development companies. 41 00:02:33,220 --> 00:02:37,760 He has 20 years of r and d expertise across 25 different indications, 42 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:40,600 as well as 12 years of cannabinoid focused research. 43 00:02:41,620 --> 00:02:43,840 As an expert in the field of cannabinoid science, 44 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:47,840 he has developed a pipeline of discovery work on over 20 novel cannabinoids and 45 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,800 terpenes. Pre previously, Dr. 46 00:02:50,910 --> 00:02:53,520 Land acted as the senior scientific director, 47 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,120 director of Cannabinoid Research and scientific spokesperson at Canopy Growth. 48 00:02:58,950 --> 00:02:59,920 Most notably, though, 49 00:03:00,140 --> 00:03:04,320 he was GW Pharma's first full-time r and d employee in the United States, 50 00:03:04,490 --> 00:03:08,320 where he played a critical role in the development of Epidiolex and SAV effects 51 00:03:08,540 --> 00:03:12,240 and co-authored multiple protocols for the treatment of refractory epilepsy, 52 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,800 multiple sclerosis and pain. Dr. 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,760 Lan has presented at over 50 scientific conferences, 54 00:03:19,180 --> 00:03:23,920 is a named inventor on nine patent applications, and has over 20 publications. 55 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:27,920 Hunter serves as guest lecturer at the University of Wisconsin and the 56 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:30,200 University of Colorado Scag School of Pharmacy, 57 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:31,840 and holds other important positions, 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,680 including Chief Scientific Officer for the National Hockey League Alumni 59 00:03:36,170 --> 00:03:39,400 Scientific Board member of the Veterinary Cannabis Society, 60 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:43,480 and member of the Advisory Board for the Council of Federal Cannabis Regulation. 61 00:03:44,350 --> 00:03:47,720 Special thanks to the folks at Medicinal Genomics who shared Hunter's 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,560 presentation on longevity at Caned 2023 This year on YouTube. 63 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:56,120 Caned deserves a lot of credit for making these presentations public and not 64 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:56,953 gatekeeping them. 65 00:03:57,500 --> 00:04:01,080 You can find links to hunters and all the other caned presentations on the 66 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,880 Shaping Fire website page for this episode. During the first set today, 67 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,360 we will discuss what longevity is in practice and the mechanics of aging at the 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,120 metabolic level, how increasing cellular energetics improves your health span, 69 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:17,800 and how the endocannabinoid system plays a significant role in all of this. 70 00:04:18,860 --> 00:04:23,440 The chunky second set is devoted to discussing individual cannabinoids, 71 00:04:23,570 --> 00:04:26,360 their longevity benefits on particular health systems, 72 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:28,480 functional cannabinoid ratios, 73 00:04:28,660 --> 00:04:32,840 and how to go about determining an individualized dosing strategy to meet your 74 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:33,470 goals, 75 00:04:33,470 --> 00:04:38,360 including a vibrant discussion of using whole plant resin versus cannabinoid 76 00:04:38,430 --> 00:04:41,040 isolate. And during the third short set, 77 00:04:41,180 --> 00:04:44,680 we will focus specifically on a few cautions to consider when taking 78 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,920 cannabinoids to extend your functional life. Welcome to Shaping Fire Hunter. 79 00:04:49,940 --> 00:04:51,400 Uh, thanks so much for having me. 80 00:04:51,940 --> 00:04:54,280 So, you know, getting right into it, um, 81 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:58,720 one of the things I like about your presentations is you make this very delicate 82 00:04:58,950 --> 00:05:03,000 delineation about lifespan and health span, 83 00:05:03,150 --> 00:05:07,440 because so often people just think about how long will I live? 84 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:09,760 Um, but, but as I get older, 85 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,480 I realize that there's a lot of difference in quality of life, um, 86 00:05:13,820 --> 00:05:18,360 if I get older and sicker. So will you tease those apart for us so that, um, 87 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,800 you kind of set us up for the direction we're headed in today? 88 00:05:21,940 --> 00:05:25,280 Of course. Um, I think it's a critical distinction. Uh, 89 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:30,080 living a really long life, but not a robust life, uh, 90 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,080 field of activity, um, is certainly a shortcoming, right? So we don't want, 91 00:05:35,420 --> 00:05:38,040 uh, to have the situation where we can live, you know, 92 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,800 well over a hundred years. But our last 30 years, uh, 93 00:05:41,970 --> 00:05:45,560 we're unable to do the things, you know, the normal, uh, 94 00:05:45,690 --> 00:05:49,920 activities of daily living that we enjoy, uh, that goes to quality of life. 95 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:52,320 So a lot of us researchers, uh, 96 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:56,160 we don't just look at how long something could keep you alive. Uh, 97 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,800 we look at the quality of life there in the middle. Um, and interesting enough, 98 00:06:01,310 --> 00:06:06,000 that kind of middle set of health span measures mainly around activity level, 99 00:06:06,330 --> 00:06:09,840 seems to feed quite well into lifespan generally. 100 00:06:09,940 --> 00:06:14,680 So those who are maintain health and health span measures in the middle of life 101 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:19,640 often, uh, as an extension of that extend lifespan, uh, 102 00:06:19,850 --> 00:06:24,480 quite significantly. Um, and then those who extend lifespan, um, often, 103 00:06:24,940 --> 00:06:29,200 uh, don't have this prolonged, uh, unfortunate, um, 104 00:06:29,710 --> 00:06:34,040 lack of activity at the, the terminal terminal years of their life. 105 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:40,550 So that definitely gives us the idea that, you know, uh, in one case, 106 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:41,210 in one way, 107 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:45,750 it might be better to live a higher quality shorter life than a longer life 108 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:48,110 that's lower quality. Because if you're, 109 00:06:48,110 --> 00:06:50,910 if you're really getting sicker the last 20 years, uh, 110 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:55,550 it's like in increasingly being in a prison and yet you're still alive. 111 00:06:56,660 --> 00:07:00,270 Exactly. You know, I think the, the goal ultimately would be both. 112 00:07:00,370 --> 00:07:05,070 And I think we can achieve both with some level of intervention. Uh, 113 00:07:05,170 --> 00:07:09,710 and we've seen, you know, an extensive change in lifespan. Um, 114 00:07:09,770 --> 00:07:14,430 if you go back maybe a hundred to 150 years, you know, 115 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:18,270 average life expectancy was about 35 years. Uh, you know, 116 00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:22,670 it was riddled with problems around giving birth, uh, infections, 117 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:24,550 you know, lack of surgery. 118 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:27,590 And now we have those things and we've been able to extend life. 119 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:30,990 But unfortunately, the health span, uh, 120 00:07:31,140 --> 00:07:33,670 remains to be problematic in that kind of, 121 00:07:33,670 --> 00:07:36,710 those middle years of life and ultimately, uh, 122 00:07:37,010 --> 00:07:38,750 impact age related disease. 123 00:07:40,010 --> 00:07:43,870 So I don't think that we need to convince very many people that living a long 124 00:07:43,930 --> 00:07:47,390 and healthy life is the goal. So that's probably gonna be our easiest thing to, 125 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:50,430 you know, try to convince people of today. So, so for sure, 126 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,670 let's move right on to the, the, the, the, the part of that the endocannabinoid, 127 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,750 um, system can play in this, you know, um, I'm gonna, 128 00:07:58,850 --> 00:08:01,870 I'm gonna start with how I normally explain the endocannabinoid system, 129 00:08:01,870 --> 00:08:04,990 just because patients dig it. Um, uh, but, 130 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:07,270 but then I'm gonna ask you to give us like a, you know, 131 00:08:07,350 --> 00:08:10,270 a more elaborate scientific explanation, but, um, 132 00:08:10,330 --> 00:08:13,270 to people who have never come across the endocannabinoid system before, 133 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:14,430 I always say that it's, 134 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,310 it's very similar to being a second grade teacher in the room. You know, 135 00:08:18,410 --> 00:08:18,910 you've got, 136 00:08:18,910 --> 00:08:21,030 you've got the teacher in the room and you've got all these students, 137 00:08:21,130 --> 00:08:22,310 and when the teacher's in the room, 138 00:08:22,730 --> 00:08:24,990 all the kids are pretty much doing what they're supposed to be doing. 139 00:08:25,130 --> 00:08:27,430 But then if the teacher gets called out of the room, 140 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:29,390 the kids might be good for a few minutes, 141 00:08:29,450 --> 00:08:33,430 but eventually one kid cracks up and then another kid cracks up, and then like, 142 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:35,390 all the kids are cracking up, and then, 143 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:38,550 and then eventually the teacher comes back in the room and has to settle 144 00:08:38,550 --> 00:08:42,630 everybody back down. And our endocannabinoid system is in the same way. Like, 145 00:08:42,890 --> 00:08:46,110 you know, if, if, if the endocannabinoid system gets weakened, 146 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,750 eventually one of the systems that it moderates will go bad, 147 00:08:49,810 --> 00:08:54,110 and then another one will, and another one, and it may be different systems, um, 148 00:08:54,260 --> 00:08:58,480 that are falling out of balance for different people first, but, um, you know, 149 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:03,160 the, the chaos increases as they run into each other. So, you know, you know, 150 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:03,920 at at that, that, 151 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,240 that ex explanation would certainly never fly at one of your scientific 152 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,240 conferences, . Um, so I, 153 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,520 I would appreciate it if you would explain in a more scientific way, um, 154 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:19,000 how the endocannabinoid system acts as the body's master regulator for all 155 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,480 of these mission critical systems. 156 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:26,240 Oh, well, I think the analogy is, is really interesting and, and suitable. Uh, 157 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:31,440 I like to think of it generally the endocannabinoid system as the rest relaxed 158 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:36,000 restore system of the body. I think that was something that, uh, Ethan Russo, 159 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:38,960 uh, one of my mentors refers to it as, 160 00:09:38,980 --> 00:09:42,520 and I think it's a good representation of, of how that system works. 161 00:09:43,220 --> 00:09:46,760 If you look at the brain, uh, the cannabinoid one receptors, 162 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,720 these are receptors that T H c, uh, 163 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:53,240 is an agonist or activates these receptors, 164 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:57,880 as well as your own body's cannabinoids or endogenous 165 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,720 cannabinoids. And, um, 166 00:09:59,980 --> 00:10:04,960 that's essentially how the system functions is by either local activation, 167 00:10:05,270 --> 00:10:10,160 your own body's, endo cannabinoid system, or by external cannabinoids. 168 00:10:10,260 --> 00:10:14,440 And, and T H C, I think is, is one of the, the best examples of, 169 00:10:14,540 --> 00:10:19,080 of what we would call a partial agonist at CB one. And the way, 170 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:24,240 an easy way to think of this, again, not trying to go in too much detail, 171 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,760 but your brain, it has neurotransmitters that that signal, 172 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:31,960 uh, for effects. And these things can be, 173 00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:34,920 certain neurotransmitters may act like stimulants. 174 00:10:35,060 --> 00:10:39,800 So think caffeine and other neurotransmitters may act like, 175 00:10:40,020 --> 00:10:43,680 um, benzodiazepines. So think Xanax, um, 176 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:48,840 and these are signaling pathways, but if you get too much release of, uh, 177 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:50,600 uh, the stimulant component, 178 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:54,520 so that's glutamate or the benzodiazepine, the, 179 00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:58,200 the Xanax like component, which would be gaba, um, 180 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:03,240 things can go awry because we, we, we don't want these systems be outta control, 181 00:11:03,350 --> 00:11:06,760 just like your, your second graders in the classroom. And, 182 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:10,600 and the the second grade teacher, so to speak, uh, would be your, 183 00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:12,440 your endocannabinoid system, 184 00:11:12,770 --> 00:11:17,080 which actually tells these neurotransmitters to, um, 185 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:19,840 stop to, to settle down, to calm down. 186 00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:23,080 So not release as much of this neurotransmitter, 187 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,640 essentially like a reset switch for those systems. Um, 188 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:33,000 the interesting component is this happens on a very localized level, 189 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:37,560 so you're not reprimanding the whole classroom. Your body doesn't, you know, 190 00:11:37,940 --> 00:11:40,960 punish all the kids. If only two of them are bad, 191 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:46,120 it only focuses on those two bad children or the two, uh, 192 00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:49,400 the small section of neurotransmission that's gone awry. 193 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:55,000 The important difference here is when you take a exogenous cannabinoid, 194 00:11:55,100 --> 00:12:00,000 so like t h c, it can downregulate all of that system. 195 00:12:00,380 --> 00:12:04,160 So the stimulation and the inhibitory or the, 196 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:07,800 the Xanax like effect, which can be problematic. If you, 197 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:10,360 if you use too much, uh, 198 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,600 then that's where you get massive anxiety and paranoia. So it's a very, um, 199 00:12:14,890 --> 00:12:19,440 particular system, um, that can be regulated well on its own, 200 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:24,600 and in many cases may need to be regulated or can people can benefit from 201 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,920 regulation, uh, using something like T H C. 202 00:12:29,020 --> 00:12:31,280 So we're not gonna dwell too much on the mechanics, 203 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,640 but I do have a couple of a couple other questions to go down this path. Before, 204 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,640 before we switch. Um, you know, often we will talk about, uh, 205 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:44,480 certain cannabinoids, uh, being an, um, an agonist or an antagonist. 206 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:49,320 Um, and my understanding is an agonist essentially is turning on something or an 207 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,760 antagonist is turning off something. And often, you know, 208 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,360 laypeople will talk about, um, you know, 209 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,760 this or that cannabinoid turning on or off a receptor, um, 210 00:13:00,150 --> 00:13:04,240 causing a particular effect or another. Um, is it, 211 00:13:04,420 --> 00:13:09,160 is it really like, uh, that black and white zero and one do, 212 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:09,820 do, 213 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:14,200 do these antagonists and antagonists really just flip a switch and it's either A 214 00:13:14,260 --> 00:13:15,093 or B? 215 00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:19,640 Or is it more analog where there's a range of, 216 00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:24,240 of how much it is being agonized or antagonized? 217 00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:28,640 Yeah, absolutely. There's a tremendous range. And, and, you know, 218 00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:32,800 we could probably do a show on just that component or just that question, which, 219 00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:37,200 uh, I think, we'll, we'll skip some of those details. But the, 220 00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:42,200 to the degree to which you stimulate or agonize a receptor or 221 00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:47,240 block it, uh, can be very powerful or it can be more gentle, right? 222 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:51,440 So T H C is not a very potent agonist. It doesn't, 223 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,720 it's not like a sledgehammer for your, your CB one receptor. 224 00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:57,560 There are some synthetic, uh, 225 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:01,920 cannabinoids like spice and K two that are extremely 226 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,320 inebriating and very potent, um, 227 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:08,560 and very dangerous and can cause a lot of side effects. Uh, 228 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:13,520 there's also antagonists, so at, at, at lower doses, T H C V, 229 00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:18,320 so similar to T H C, but with two less carbons on the tail. Um, 230 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:22,040 it can be an antagonist, so it can actually block, uh, 231 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:26,760 your endocannabinoids and, uh, may lead to a very different effect. 232 00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:31,360 Uh, there was a, a drug called Ramban that was, uh, 233 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,720 designed to be an antagonist. And unfortunately, 234 00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:38,920 it's something we call inverse agonist. So it's not like T H C, I think is the, 235 00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:40,760 the important point. And, 236 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:44,480 and what happened with that particular drug is it caused increased, uh, 237 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,600 suicidal ideation. So people were depressed, some people were depressed, and, 238 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:51,760 uh, some people had suicidal thoughts, 239 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:56,080 they also lost weight and seemed to help regulate blood sugar. And a, 240 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,480 a couple other aspects. So, um, 241 00:14:58,910 --> 00:15:03,720 your point of how strong something is at either blocking a 242 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,120 receptor or stimulating a receptor, especially as it relates to, 243 00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:11,840 to medicine and, and health outcomes, uh, is of critical importance. 244 00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,920 So circling this, um, 245 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,280 mechanics conversation back to this idea of longevity and, um, you know, 246 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,120 that, that bigger holistic picture, um, you know, 247 00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:28,360 when we think about the endocannabinoid system and its ability to, 248 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:32,960 to, you know, uh, uh, turn on and off different systems, 249 00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:35,320 to bring them into balance, things that are running hot, 250 00:15:35,380 --> 00:15:38,600 it can have it settle down, or if something is too sluggish, 251 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,160 it can suddenly be stimulated by the endocannabinoid system. Most of us, um, 252 00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:47,640 you know, folks who are cannabis enthusiasts but are not researchers, um, 253 00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:52,000 you know, we were, we throw around the ideas of the CB one and CB two receptor, 254 00:15:52,260 --> 00:15:54,480 you know, pretty, pretty liberally, even if, 255 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:58,520 if not necessarily scientifically accurate, just so that we can under, you know, 256 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,080 generally understand, um, how to dose ourselves one way or another. And mm-hmm. 257 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,720 , um, and, and I, and I know that, um, you know, 258 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,880 C B D doesn't really act upon those receptors, 259 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:13,960 and yet we still consider it part of the endocannabinoid system, which, 260 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,800 which clearly suggests that the endocannabinoid system is made up of 261 00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:22,600 more than just these, uh, neurotransmitters and, 262 00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:25,800 and these two receptors. Now, now I know, again, 263 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,120 it would be an entire show to ask you to review all of the parts of the 264 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,760 endocannabinoid system, but what I'm, what I'm looking for is, is, um, uh, 265 00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:36,320 for you to just give us a, a, a quick, uh, 266 00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:40,680 survey of of who makes up the endocannabinoid system. Like what parts, 267 00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:43,960 because in, in, you know, in, in a little bit in the show, 268 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,480 we're gonna be talking about how we're working with the endocannabinoid system, 269 00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:50,200 and I, I wanna make sure that people understand the reach. 270 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:56,120 Sure. Well, well, the endocannabinoid system is, is heavily, uh, 271 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,680 integrated with so many other systems in your body. It, 272 00:16:59,740 --> 00:17:04,560 it can couple or affect upstream, downstream things like serotonin, 273 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,000 which is associated with depression, uh, dopamine, 274 00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:11,600 which I think we're all well versed in, in what dopamine, uh, 275 00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:14,080 actions of do dopamine are. Um, 276 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,040 but also critical roles in inflammation and mood, uh, sleep. 277 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,760 So, you know, it's, it's heavily integrated. So I, 278 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,920 I personally like to think of the endocannabinoid system in 279 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,680 a classical case. So just CB one and CB two, 280 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:35,960 and the endogenous ligand. So the cannabinoids that your body makes, 281 00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:39,720 and then the transporters, um, whether that's, um, 282 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,680 because you have to get these from point A to point B, 283 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,080 and they're all targets for potential, uh, 284 00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:51,040 making of medicines and, and maybe plant molecules modulating these systems. 285 00:17:52,270 --> 00:17:57,080 Once you go outside of that, then you start calling a lot of different things, 286 00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:02,160 the endocannabinoid system. So for instance, uh, trip receptors, 287 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,440 T r P receptors, um, 288 00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:09,480 especially Trip V one we know is activated by cannabinoids and 289 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,360 sometimes desensitized. That's the same receptor for, um, 290 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:17,520 the spicy taste, right? And that that's actually an ion channel. 291 00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:22,480 So that's just an example of another system altogether that 292 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,520 cannabinoids can function at, but isn't necessarily a, um, 293 00:18:28,270 --> 00:18:32,800 what I would consider the classical endocannabinoid system. Um, 294 00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:37,880 but, um, to your point, there are tons of targets, especially for C B D, 295 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,520 we know there are about 68 different targets, 296 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,680 meaning places where C B D may work or function in the body, 297 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:50,840 and almost all of those are outside of the endocannabinoid system. Uh, 298 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:55,840 and the same can be said for probably at least a hundred of the other, 299 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:57,133 uh, 300 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,760 phyto cannabinoids found in cannabis that their principle role is probably not 301 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:03,960 CCB one or CB two. Mm-hmm. 302 00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:09,560 So, so in a way of summary, um, will you make the case real for me real quick, 303 00:19:09,620 --> 00:19:14,600 uh, make the case that for, for somebody wanting, um, to, you know, 304 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,480 increase their health span, 305 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:21,920 why working with the endocannabinoid system is a great place for 306 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:22,913 you to be working? 307 00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:27,320 Well, I think, you know, the endocannabinoid system is, as I mentioned, 308 00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:29,800 the rest, relax, restore system of the body. 309 00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:35,280 It's importance around inflammation and the immune system is critical. 310 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:39,440 And when we think about, um, age related diseases, 311 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,560 a lot of these are mediated by our body's inflammatory response, uh, 312 00:19:44,770 --> 00:19:49,040 autoimmune response and, and things that have gone awry. So, um, 313 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:52,840 if your body's able to keep these, uh, components in check, 314 00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:57,840 then maybe you do have better health span and, and, and lifespan measures, uh, 315 00:19:57,940 --> 00:20:02,480 by just keeping everything in this nice balance of where it should be in 316 00:20:02,790 --> 00:20:07,440 homeostasis and not, uh, outside of that, I think that's certainly 317 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:13,200 has strong potential, um, for extending life and, and activity. 318 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:14,560 And secondly, 319 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:19,040 I think there's a big role for cannabinoids and endocannabinoids around 320 00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:22,360 mitochondrial health. Um, and mitochondria, uh, 321 00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,520 if you remember back to grade school, are the powerhouse of the cells. 322 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:30,400 So as these things go into decline, um, you know, you have, 323 00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:34,880 uh, problems with cellular energetics, which if you don't have energy, 324 00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:39,680 uh, for your engine of your cell, then kind of everything starts to go awry. 325 00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:44,800 When, when people talk about, um, you know, 326 00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,000 can cannabis medicine and all the things that it can help, um, 327 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:54,320 people new to cannabis medicine will also have often have this reaction that, 328 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:58,640 um, oh, you think cannabis is a panacea, it, you know, it's, 329 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,360 it can just cure everything. That's ridiculous. Nothing can cure that much. And, 330 00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:05,760 and what I tell 'em is it really only helps one thing. 331 00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:09,800 It it helps balance the endocannabinoid system and the, and, 332 00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:14,360 and the issue is that all of your body's systems play into the 333 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,720 endocannabinoid system. So really, the cannabis plant really has one job, 334 00:21:18,770 --> 00:21:22,520 which is to keep the endocannabinoid system in balance. And, and in my head, 335 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,080 I always think of it as, you know, the endo, 336 00:21:25,140 --> 00:21:28,960 the only thing that you can do other than the endocannabinoid system that can 337 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,680 have such far reaching effects to heal and restore the human body is 338 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,320 eating a whole foods diet, 339 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,920 because that too reaches every part of your body. Um, how does that set for you? 340 00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:46,600 Well, I, I think it's an interesting point. Um, I, 341 00:21:46,610 --> 00:21:50,920 first thing I would like to say is cannabis is not, cannabis is not cannabis, 342 00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:53,760 right? Because we know that there are, 343 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,520 I think last time I checked about 545 potentially active 344 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,080 compounds that can be found in cannabis. 345 00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:05,960 And we estimate right now there may be up to 150 different phyto 346 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,960 cannabinoids, and they're all very unique, right? So, uh, 347 00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:12,480 when we use cannabis as just the plant, um, 348 00:22:12,580 --> 00:22:16,760 it is a very unique plant because of the compounds that produces. 349 00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:21,480 These are things like terpenes and terpenoids and flavonoids and, 350 00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:25,680 uh, obviously cannabinoids as well as a lot of components that we're not even, 351 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,760 uh, really, uh, well versed in as of yet. 352 00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:33,440 The science hasn't really directed us to examine all these components. And, 353 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,640 and with that being said, 354 00:22:34,660 --> 00:22:39,320 the complexity is which of these components works well, 355 00:22:39,890 --> 00:22:44,040 where and how does that affect disease? So to your point, 356 00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:49,040 if we're talking t h c, um, and some of the other cannabinoids, uh, then, then, 357 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:52,200 you know, endocannabinoid system may be critical. Um, 358 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,080 but if you look at something like C B D, I would, I would make an argument for, 359 00:22:56,660 --> 00:23:01,400 uh, the principle, um, areas of our action are not, um, 360 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,760 directly related, maybe upstream or downstream, 361 00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:09,320 but not directly related to the endocannabinoid system. Hmm. So again, 362 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:13,200 another level of complexity, um, to a very, 363 00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:18,040 very complex situation. Um, I agree with your statement about food. Uh, 364 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,840 I have a, a deep interest in nutrition. Um, I, I would also add, 365 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:27,480 um, exercise and potentially fasting, um, 366 00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:32,200 to that as having a systemic, uh, beneficial effect to, to treat, 367 00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:34,360 uh, multiple diseases. 368 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:38,320 Um, I've heard you talk before about, um, you know, the, 369 00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:42,280 the aging process as part of this overall topic of, 370 00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:46,640 of living a longer, healthier life. And, um, 371 00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:50,480 and people often think talk about like the body's clock and, 372 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:54,600 and how you can turn back the clock or stop the clock, or, you know, 373 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,760 different ways that, that people use that turn of phrase. And, um, uh, 374 00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:02,280 I'm curious at a, at a, I guess a biomechanical level, 375 00:24:03,030 --> 00:24:07,880 what does the, the, the body's clock, um, 376 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,370 what, what, what is that mechanism? You know, in passing, I've heard people say, 377 00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:15,970 oh, folate is the body's clock, but like, I don't actually know what that means. 378 00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:22,210 Oh, man, this is, uh, I think there's a lot of components to dive into here. 379 00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:27,450 Um, when you talk about bodies clock, a lot of this has to do with, um, 380 00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:30,410 there are compounds within cells called sirtuins, 381 00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:34,850 and they regulate something called epigenetics. Um, 382 00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:36,410 and you can think of this, uh, 383 00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:40,690 the genetics as kind of the recipe and the epigenetics. Um, 384 00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:41,910 it could, 385 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:46,850 can either cover portions of the recipe or uncover them for production 386 00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:51,770 of critical components, um, uh, for health span and lifespan. 387 00:24:52,030 --> 00:24:52,270 Um, 388 00:24:52,270 --> 00:24:56,690 so your body basically looks at the recipe and makes what it needs over time, 389 00:24:57,390 --> 00:25:00,970 um, those recipes get damaged. And, um, 390 00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:06,250 to the degree that cannabinoids play a role interacting with these sirtuins and 391 00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:10,890 helping regulate, uh, these genes isn't incredibly clear. 392 00:25:11,030 --> 00:25:15,890 But I think when people, largely, when people talk about their body's clock, uh, 393 00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:20,330 they're, they're thinking about how this information gets damaged over time, 394 00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:25,570 and then measuring links of things, um, uh, called telomeres, 395 00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:30,610 uh, where you can get a, a kind of a biological age. And, and they seem to map, 396 00:25:30,990 --> 00:25:34,250 uh, some of these compounds seem to map with biological age, 397 00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:37,770 which is very different than chronological age. 398 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,460 So, um, so if I were to summarize that, like, you know, 399 00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:47,180 if I was talking to a friend or somebody, I, I would say that, you know, our, 400 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:51,940 when we're young or when we're born, our body is born with a, um, 401 00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:56,860 a a set of recipes to, to make various, um, 402 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,660 you know, chemicals and parts that make us human. And, 403 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,700 and as we get older, um, the, the recipe book, 404 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,580 um, starts to get, uh, corrupted over time. 405 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,140 And so the recipes don't get made right anymore. 406 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,540 And, and therefore the functioning, uh, continues to degrade until, 407 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,100 you know, the souffle flattens and we die. Um, is, is that, 408 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,420 is that one way to say what you're saying? 409 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:30,020 Sure. I think that's one way You start out making chocolate chip cookies and, 410 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,140 and, you know, at the end, uh, , 411 00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:36,180 they don't look anything like chocolate chip cookies because you've got this 412 00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:40,460 disrupted, uh, recipe. And I think that's, that's one component. 413 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,240 And the other component, um, you know, has to do with, um, 414 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,360 cellular energetics and, and also, um, the cleaning of, 415 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:53,360 of the cells. So getting rid of the bad and coming in with the new, and, 416 00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:58,160 and that also gets damaged over time. The, uh, your body's ability to heal, 417 00:26:58,330 --> 00:27:01,840 which I think everybody can, can agree that, you know, 418 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,960 an 80 year old individual does not have the same ability to, 419 00:27:06,020 --> 00:27:09,840 to heal their injured knee as, you know, a 10 year old. Um, 420 00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:14,440 and that ability declines over time for, for multiple reasons. Um, and, 421 00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:17,400 and some of that is your own body's adaptation to, 422 00:27:17,780 --> 00:27:21,040 to cleansing the bad and, and bringing in the new. 423 00:27:21,820 --> 00:27:24,240 If as we age, um, our, 424 00:27:24,380 --> 00:27:27,840 the recipes are getting corrupted and, and, and, 425 00:27:27,860 --> 00:27:32,840 and what we want is thriving cellular ener e genetics, 426 00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:37,560 um, so that we have a longer health span. What, 427 00:27:37,950 --> 00:27:42,840 what is it that is degrading these recipes that potent cellular 428 00:27:44,050 --> 00:27:48,520 energetics, um, is able to undo or defend against? 429 00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:53,640 Uh, I think it's a, a great point. Uh, a lot of people are investigating this. 430 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,600 I mean, there are some people that just have great genetics from the start. 431 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,800 These centenarians, you know, that live over a hundred, 432 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,040 a lot of 'em have smoked cigarettes their whole life and maybe drink too much, 433 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:10,320 et cetera, but they were just, you know, blessed with, uh, you know, 434 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,160 this genetic predisposition of just having this really robust, uh, 435 00:28:15,230 --> 00:28:18,400 genetic system that takes care of their, their, uh, 436 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:22,040 the health of their d n a and their cells. But for most of us, 437 00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:23,533 we don't have that. 438 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:27,440 And the things that we can control are largely environmental. 439 00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:32,400 So that's what we put in our body, um, the amount of rest and sleep that we get, 440 00:28:32,980 --> 00:28:35,760 um, the, uh, toxins that, 441 00:28:35,790 --> 00:28:40,440 that may be around us and activity level. And I think those are, 442 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:45,280 that pretty much sums up, um, you know, the 443 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:47,580 outcomes of, 444 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:52,560 of how well we can maintain these recipes and the cellular health as we 445 00:28:52,580 --> 00:28:53,413 age. 446 00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:56,880 You know, it's kind of ironic that, that even though, you know, the, 447 00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:01,680 the underlying kind of point of the discussion today is, is, you know, 448 00:29:01,790 --> 00:29:05,960 growing and using, uh, cannabis medicine as a, 449 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,640 a supplement can increase your health and your, 450 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:13,760 your health span at the same time. Um, it, 451 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:18,480 it's not lost on me that we keep on coming back to the best thing that you can 452 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,160 do for your health span is to, uh, eat well, 453 00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:27,160 sleep well and exercise. And, and except for maybe, you know, 454 00:29:27,290 --> 00:29:31,280 whole Foods more or less, like those are all, those are free things, right? 455 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,360 Those are things that don't cost money, and yet they're the hard thing to do. 456 00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:39,360 And so people are all like, you know, I, I still wanna stay up too late. 457 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,040 I would still like to eat like crap. I don't really wanna exercise, 458 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:46,280 but I would really like to buy this bottle of vitamins, and just eat, 459 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,720 eat these, and get away with living my crappy life. 460 00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:53,000 Right? Right. It's much easier. Yeah. Right. And, and, and we see that, 461 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:56,760 you know, with, with modern medicine, uh, uh, you know, for instance, 462 00:29:57,190 --> 00:30:01,560 some patients that are diabetic may be able to manage it, um, 463 00:30:01,710 --> 00:30:06,040 with diet and exercise. Um, and, and I'm not a physician, so, you know, 464 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,120 consult your physician before you do any of that, 465 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:12,720 but it could in the early stages is potentially be managed with, uh, 466 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:13,540 diet and exercise, 467 00:30:13,540 --> 00:30:18,520 but it's much easier to take a pill or a shot or take a medication than to 468 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,880 put all that effort into controlling something, uh, more naturally. 469 00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:28,080 Right on. So, um, with that said, we certainly recommend a Whole Foods diet, 470 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,000 exercise and, uh, and good sleep, but we also want to be able to, 471 00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:36,880 um, you know, do the best we can. And so, um, 472 00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:41,200 we're going to continue the conversation now and talk about, um, you know, 473 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,040 some cannabinoids and, and what their mechanics look like in the body, um, uh, 474 00:30:46,060 --> 00:30:51,000 to support this, uh, this increasing health span that we want to get now. Um, 475 00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:55,160 you know, yeah, there's, there's, you know, 545 compounds and, 476 00:30:55,420 --> 00:30:57,760 and 150 phytocannabinoids, 477 00:30:57,940 --> 00:31:01,880 and clearly we're not gonna go through them all today. And, and, you know, 478 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,760 I don't really think we need to either, because for, for most listeners, 479 00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:11,120 we're really only going to have access to, um, you know, 480 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,360 C B D T, H C C B G, 481 00:31:14,860 --> 00:31:19,800 and then whole plant resins that will have a smattering of these other 482 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,160 phytocannabinoids in it, 483 00:31:21,250 --> 00:31:25,640 which we may not even know about because they might not be testing for 'em in 484 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,440 the C O a. So, um, so we'll just a hundred percent. Yeah. We'll, 485 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:33,800 so let's just focus on these because this is what people really have access to, 486 00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:36,960 and so we might, and I don't want to, I wanna keep this relevant to real people, 487 00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:38,760 you know? Sure, of course. So, so, 488 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,480 so since you've already started talking about C B D and the plethora of targets, 489 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,480 I think you like said 68 or something, something like way bigger than, um, 490 00:31:47,910 --> 00:31:51,280 most people take for granted. Um, um, and I'm, I'm, I'm, 491 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240 we're gonna start with C B D, and then I'm gonna hit like all, you know, 492 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,440 all of the next three, but, but let's start with C B D. Um, 493 00:31:58,390 --> 00:32:02,920 what is it that we are hoping that C B D does? You know, 494 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:03,680 when people ask me, 495 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,520 I just generally say we want the C B D supplement as an, 496 00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:09,140 um, 497 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:14,080 to re that we get from the plant to replace an endogenous cannabinoid 498 00:32:14,190 --> 00:32:17,920 that we're not making or that we're depleted in, or we don't have enough of, so, 499 00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:22,840 so our, our body doesn't have enough, and so we take C B, D to replace it, and, 500 00:32:23,260 --> 00:32:28,160 and then it helps keep things in balance. How would you discuss it as a, 501 00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:29,760 as a cannabinoid researcher? 502 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,353 I would, um, 503 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,640 I would discuss it a little bit different because most of my work around C B D 504 00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:42,560 has been in, uh, treating disease. And, uh, primarily, you know, 505 00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,320 the, the, at least the initial work I've done with C B D was in epilepsy, 506 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,560 specifically a lot of refractory childhood epilepsies, 507 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,000 like Dravet and Lennox-Gastaut, um, where these children had failed, you know, 508 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,160 14 different modern medications and we're on three or four and still having 509 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,760 hundreds of seizures a month. And we do see, uh, CBDs quite effective, 510 00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:09,520 generally re reducing about 50% of seizures with some patients being seizure 511 00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:10,560 free. Um, 512 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:15,680 and it doesn't work like these other anti epileptic drugs or these anti-seizure 513 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,400 drugs. That's, I think, the, the really clear component, 514 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:25,000 um, is that we know that it is safe and effective for seizures. Um, 515 00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:29,640 but these doses are much higher than what you would take C B D as a supplement. 516 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,800 So in the clinical trials, you know, patients were taking, you know, 517 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,520 between 500 and 1500, sometimes more milligrams of C B D A day. 518 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:43,680 Now, would that be lower if it was a whole plant extract? Um, 519 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,760 I think it would have to be lower because the whole plant extracts contain T H 520 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,640 C. Would that be better? It, it's certainly possible, um, 521 00:33:51,950 --> 00:33:54,400 that it would be better, but, but again, uh, 522 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,320 we would really need to do that research. T H C is also an anti-convulsant, 523 00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:01,880 so as you and your listeners probably know, 524 00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:03,840 if you're getting a whole plant extract, 525 00:34:04,020 --> 00:34:08,680 the overwhelming majority of 'em still have some T H C present, um, which, 526 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,360 which may be a benefit to some patients with epilepsy. 527 00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:14,800 It could also be pro convulsant to some patients. Uh, 528 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:19,040 and it may be of critical importance to areas like pain, um, and, 529 00:34:19,180 --> 00:34:24,120 and maybe areas like anxiety. Now, as you go down in doses, 530 00:34:24,270 --> 00:34:26,600 there's been some evidence that C B D is a, 531 00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:29,960 is a pretty powerful anxiolytic. 532 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,200 We've seen that for things like public speaking. Um, 533 00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:36,560 they haven't done any work with podcasting yet, but maybe that's a, 534 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,920 that's an option. , we, we do see that, uh, the anxiety tends to go down, 535 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:45,840 um, in, in several studies, and that seems to be at, at lower doses. Um, 536 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,800 if you bring that dose down further to, let's say 25 milligrams, 537 00:34:50,010 --> 00:34:54,160 there really hasn't been a lot of research to say, you know, 538 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,640 what do these low doses do? And, um, and that's because, you know, 539 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:02,160 it may not be doing much at low doses or, um, 540 00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:06,000 it may be that it takes a long time to see those effects. For example, 541 00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:10,000 if you eat a healthy diet or you take, uh, certain, uh, 542 00:35:10,590 --> 00:35:13,400 nutritional supplements, you may not see that immediately. 543 00:35:13,420 --> 00:35:15,920 It may be down the road where you see benefit. Um, 544 00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:19,720 and those are things that are very difficult to, to look at, uh, and, 545 00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:22,880 and very expensive to look at, uh, in a scientific setting. 546 00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:27,040 We often talk about psilocybin on this show, and that's the kind of the idea, 547 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,640 whole idea behind microdosing, right? Is that, 548 00:35:29,660 --> 00:35:32,080 is that you just take a little bit every day. 549 00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:34,320 And so the materials are there and it's the, 550 00:35:34,510 --> 00:35:39,360 it's the constancy over time that, uh, allows the, 551 00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:44,040 for the neurogenesis and, and improvement in, in the, in the brain. Um, 552 00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,760 one of the things that always gets me about C B D though, you know, where, 553 00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:52,360 where I'm asking you about, you know, the function of C B D, so as, 554 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:57,200 as somebody who's looking for longevity knows, um, 555 00:35:57,860 --> 00:36:02,720 you know what the C B D is like doing for them, it's, it, 556 00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:06,520 it, it doesn't really discriminate, right? It kind of gets into everything. 557 00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:09,040 And so it is, it's almost like, alright, 558 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,640 I can't tell you specifically what C B D is going to do for you and 559 00:36:14,740 --> 00:36:15,573 how soon, 560 00:36:16,060 --> 00:36:20,960 but I can tell you that C B D does so much good for so many different 561 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,600 systems that you should just take it and, 562 00:36:23,740 --> 00:36:26,400 and just let it decide where it's gonna work. 563 00:36:27,790 --> 00:36:32,640 Well, when you have multiple, um, mechanisms, multiple ways of, of, 564 00:36:33,260 --> 00:36:36,480 of having some sort of benefit, um, you know, 565 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,400 if if there's one area that's not problematic, 566 00:36:39,580 --> 00:36:42,200 it may not modulate that particular system, 567 00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:46,760 which potentially could give benefit if there's another area where, um, 568 00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:51,520 that needs modulation or activity. And to your point earlier that, 569 00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:56,320 that I kind of glossed over, um, CBDs relevant to the endocannabinoid system, 570 00:36:56,740 --> 00:36:58,160 uh, there's been a lot of, uh, 571 00:36:58,250 --> 00:37:02,240 study about it being a negative allosteric modulator, meaning like, it, 572 00:37:02,380 --> 00:37:06,720 it can reduce, uh, the ability for things like T H C to, 573 00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:09,920 to attach to that receptor. Um, 574 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,360 there's been some other things like a boost your endocannabinoids, 575 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,040 your body's own cannabinoids. 576 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,600 I think those are kind of difficult to really understand if that's really a 577 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,200 mechanism. But one of the really interesting, uh, studies that, 578 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,720 that I think has just been published was in Fragile X, uh, 579 00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:32,480 which is a type of seizure disorder. And these patients have disruptive, 580 00:37:32,740 --> 00:37:37,240 um, endocannabinoid system, specifically endocannabinoid tone, 581 00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:42,600 and, um, it appears that C B D was able to restore that. 582 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:47,120 And it may be because you're not C B D may prevent the 583 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,760 internalization. So, uh, the, basically the disappearance of, 584 00:37:51,860 --> 00:37:56,320 of these CB one receptors. So think of a, a, you know, a, 585 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,080 a a tree that gets sucked back down into the dirt, right? So when, 586 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,160 when the tree is gone, then it doesn't matter, you know, 587 00:38:04,830 --> 00:38:09,120 what type of molecule you have to stick to that particular receptor, 588 00:38:09,230 --> 00:38:11,160 there's nothing there to activate. 589 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:15,120 So it is possible that that C B D may, uh, 590 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,000 prevent some of this internalization, which would be good for, uh, 591 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,640 the endocannabinoid system as a whole. 592 00:38:21,780 --> 00:38:25,200 So I'm, I'm sure that we can describe, um, 593 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:28,680 several different cannabinoids in that similar way where, 594 00:38:28,810 --> 00:38:33,480 where they can participate, uh, in, in several different ways, 595 00:38:33,580 --> 00:38:36,760 in several different systems. Um, but, 596 00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:41,760 but we do know that C B G Cannabigerol actually does 597 00:38:42,030 --> 00:38:46,680 different things than C B D does. So I, so next, like, 598 00:38:46,690 --> 00:38:49,440 would you make a delineation, um, 599 00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:55,440 and explain to us what is different about C B G than C B D and, 600 00:38:55,540 --> 00:38:58,440 and how you have found it acting or, you know, what, 601 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,800 what the state of the science is for C B G? Because even though, you know, 602 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,960 most cannabis enthusiasts are relatively new to C B G, um, you know, 603 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,440 researchers have been jumping on it as you know, 604 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,560 the exciting new novel cannabinoid for a few years now. 605 00:39:13,340 --> 00:39:15,760 Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I, I love C B G, 606 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,600 I think it's a really interesting molecule to study it. It is available, 607 00:39:19,810 --> 00:39:23,000 which some of these other minor cannabinoids are not available, 608 00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:28,320 and it is quite distinct from both T H C and C B D and, and mechanism. 609 00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:32,600 Um, for your listeners, they probably know that, you know, C B G A, 610 00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:37,280 the acid form is considered the, the mother of all cannabinoids. It, it, 611 00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:42,400 it is, um, after C B G, you're the plant, the cannabis plant produces, uh, 612 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,680 T H C A or C B D A, um, which, which we know very well, 613 00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:51,720 but it is a principle component and a lot of available cultivars of 614 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,840 cannabis now, which makes it easy for us to, or at least easier for us to study. 615 00:39:57,180 --> 00:39:59,800 Um, and it's also not a schedule one compound, 616 00:39:59,860 --> 00:40:04,000 so labs don't have to have all these certifications to examine it. So that's, 617 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,400 that's step one. It's not been available that long. 618 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:11,240 So we don't know nearly as much about C B G, um, 619 00:40:11,380 --> 00:40:16,040 as we do T H C and, and C B D, um, primarily we know that they're different. 620 00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:20,280 And then, um, we do know that there's some unique properties for, 621 00:40:20,380 --> 00:40:25,160 for C B G around, uh, immune system regulation and around, um, 622 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,040 there's something called nucleotide receptors. And those are, um, 623 00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:32,360 things that are activated on the nucleus of cells. 624 00:40:32,420 --> 00:40:35,680 So it may be very important for coding, um, 625 00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:40,680 things that your body produces that are of benefit or preventing things from 626 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,440 being coated that are problematic. 627 00:40:42,930 --> 00:40:47,280 Since the theme for the day is, um, is health span and longevity. 628 00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:52,320 Will you speak a little bit to, uh, CBGs activity on the immune system? 629 00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:56,480 Sure. Well, we do see downregulation in, 630 00:40:56,540 --> 00:40:59,920 in a lot of things that are potentially problematic, like, uh, uh, 631 00:41:00,330 --> 00:41:04,280 tumor necrosis factor and interleukins, um, 632 00:41:04,530 --> 00:41:09,120 which can be kind of broadly destructive and are, um, uh, 633 00:41:09,220 --> 00:41:11,840 are common in a lot of disease states, uh, 634 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,640 autoimmune related disease states that result in pain and neurodegeneration, 635 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:21,600 et cetera. Um, so, so we do know that it has activity there. Um, 636 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:25,080 the interesting thing will be be to learn, um, 637 00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:28,160 does that in combination with other cannabinoids, 638 00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:32,880 does that have a additive or super additive effect that can really, uh, help, 639 00:41:33,220 --> 00:41:36,240 um, treat some of these diseases and conditions? 640 00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:40,160 Um, for folks who haven't come, uh, come across that vocabulary before, 641 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:43,000 I'd like you to briefly explain, um, uh, 642 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,680 additive and more specifically super additive because, um, 643 00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:52,120 we continually make the case for people to consider finding, um, either, 644 00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:55,480 you know, whole plant or built cannabis medicines that, 645 00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,320 that have several of these cannabinoids and this idea of, of, of, 646 00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:04,200 of the, the sum being better being, um, 647 00:42:04,510 --> 00:42:06,640 more effective than the parts. I think people, 648 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,000 I want people to be able to wrap their heads around that. 649 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,890 Sure. I, and I love the subject. Um, 650 00:42:13,330 --> 00:42:16,370 I think a lot of people talk about the entourage effect. Um, 651 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,530 it's a very interesting topic and we do see, um, 652 00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:25,570 I like to think of the entourage effect is, is super additive, right? And, 653 00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:30,170 and what that would mean. So let, let's take a step back. So additive, 654 00:42:30,370 --> 00:42:34,970 I think of additive as very simply as one plus one equals two, right? 655 00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:38,530 So if you're taking, let's say two medications, um, 656 00:42:39,070 --> 00:42:43,690 and one of them reduces your pain by half or let's say 20%, 657 00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:46,930 and the other one by itself would reduce pain by 20%, 658 00:42:47,390 --> 00:42:51,290 if you take them together and you get a 40% reduction in pain, 659 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,810 then that would be additive one plus one equals two, which is benefit, right? 660 00:42:55,810 --> 00:42:57,530 Because you may not be able to, 661 00:42:57,790 --> 00:43:02,650 to take medication one at a higher dose because it may be toxic or maybe 662 00:43:02,670 --> 00:43:07,170 it just doesn't work beyond reducing 20%. Um, 663 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,570 same thing with medication too. So you have this additive effect, 664 00:43:10,830 --> 00:43:15,530 but sometimes we see these synergies where we have two different medications 665 00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:19,250 and you, they both reduce something by 20%, 666 00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:22,570 but you put them together and it's set of a 40% reduction, 667 00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:25,050 you get a 80% reduction. 668 00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:29,730 And that's what I would call super additive effect. And the idea that, 669 00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:34,450 um, with cannabinoids, you may be able to combine these, 670 00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:39,050 or they may exist already in the plant to where by themselves they would do 671 00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:43,890 nothing or they would help somewhat, but when combined, they do a lot more. 672 00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:49,090 And I think that's what the entourage effect, um, is defining. And, um, 673 00:43:49,310 --> 00:43:52,850 it could be cannabinoids with other things that aren't cannabinoids as well, 674 00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:57,410 like terpenes or flavonoids like can flavin. Um, 675 00:43:57,900 --> 00:43:59,450 we're not really sure. Uh, 676 00:43:59,630 --> 00:44:04,410 but I do think it's important to outline that, um, 677 00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:07,650 cannabinoids specifically, 678 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,970 sometimes they seem to work well together, um, 679 00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:14,850 and you get this additive or super additive effect, and sometimes they don't. 680 00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:20,010 Um, and we've seen that in with C B D and T H C and glaucoma 681 00:44:20,340 --> 00:44:25,050 where using them together actually prevents the benefits or the decrease 682 00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:28,770 in the, the pressure in the eye of T H C, um, 683 00:44:28,770 --> 00:44:33,440 which is relevant for glaucoma. So sometimes it's great to combine these things, 684 00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:37,480 but we need to know what we're combining, why we're combining it, 685 00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:41,320 and who's it for, and what's the purpose of them taking it. Um, 686 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,680 and then we can probably better understand the, 687 00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:49,080 the potential for having these additive or super additive effects. Great. 688 00:44:49,540 --> 00:44:53,800 So I've got one more C B G question before we go to our first commercial break. 689 00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:56,040 And, and that is, you know, um, 690 00:44:56,940 --> 00:45:01,840 we have been aware of C B D cannabidiol for a long time. There's now, um, a, 691 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,760 a substantial and growing body of research on it where, you know, 692 00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,200 uh, you know, except for in extreme circumstances we're, 693 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,800 we're pretty confident that C B D is, is pretty much good for everybody. We, 694 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,400 we don't really have to be concerned about, um, taking it. Um, and it'll, it'll, 695 00:45:20,410 --> 00:45:24,080 it'll help us or not, but it's, it's unlikely to hurt us. And, 696 00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:27,320 and we were talking about C B G, like, uh, we're, 697 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,920 we're just learning the benefits and, and, uh, 698 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,440 certainly anecdotally we know about how great it is for things like, uh, 699 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,560 you know, um, anxiety and neuropathy and things like that. 700 00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:40,760 But because we know so much less about it, um, 701 00:45:41,780 --> 00:45:45,000 do we know yet that, uh, 702 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,560 C B G is, you know, can be generally regarded as safe for everybody? 703 00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:54,720 Uh, where, where, even though it hasn't been researched fully yet, 704 00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:57,480 where we're to the point like, listen, you know, uh, 705 00:45:57,620 --> 00:46:02,480 we know C B D is gonna be safe, C B G's a lot like it, we know enough about it, 706 00:46:02,570 --> 00:46:06,160 don't worry about taking it. And, and I'll be clear, I'll say it for you. 707 00:46:06,350 --> 00:46:09,720 This is not medical advice to anybody out there who is a, uh, 708 00:46:09,770 --> 00:46:11,840 who's thinking of it that way. But please, hunter. 709 00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:16,400 Uh, yeah. Thanks. Thanks for that. Um, I don't think we can say it yet. 710 00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:18,680 You know, I would like to say it. Um, 711 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,840 I will say that in the work I've done both in c Elgan and rodents 712 00:46:24,310 --> 00:46:26,640 side by side with C B D, um, 713 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,800 I have found C B G to be better tolerated at very high doses than, 714 00:46:31,870 --> 00:46:35,760 than I have C B D. Hmm. So, um, and, and again, 715 00:46:35,850 --> 00:46:36,960 these are animal models. 716 00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:41,800 These tox work usually translates fairly well to humans, 717 00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:43,560 but not always. I mean, they're, 718 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,600 I don't know if you remember years ago there was this, uh, this drug, 719 00:46:47,630 --> 00:46:52,600 this company called Bile, and, um, they were making a drug for, 720 00:46:53,060 --> 00:46:55,480 uh, modulating the endocannabinoid system. 721 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,680 It was a FA inhibitor and it looked great in rodents, 722 00:46:58,780 --> 00:47:03,240 and then they put it in humans, and three patients had like brain death. Wow. 723 00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:07,760 Now, I don't expect that that is gonna happen with C B G, but you don't, 724 00:47:07,820 --> 00:47:12,120 you don't always know. There's, and we certainly don't know the test, 725 00:47:12,540 --> 00:47:16,400 you know, like the, the level, we haven't tested the level, uh, to, 726 00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:20,280 to where we can go with C B G, uh, whereas like, you know, 727 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,400 there's not really an LD 50 a, 728 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,760 a lethal dose that kills 50% of the population with T H C. Um, 729 00:47:27,060 --> 00:47:32,000 no known reported deaths other than I think a guy got smashed by cannabis in 730 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,800 his car, in a car accident. Um, so I guess that might be related, but, um, 731 00:47:37,300 --> 00:47:40,040 and, and C B D also seems very safe. Uh, 732 00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:44,000 acutely we've given patients like 6,000 milligrams. Uh, 733 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,440 there are concerns with high doses and, and the impact on liver, 734 00:47:48,940 --> 00:47:51,600 uh, especially with other drugs like valproic acid. 735 00:47:51,780 --> 00:47:54,840 We haven't done any of that work with C B G, um, 736 00:47:54,940 --> 00:47:59,640 and it's not as well known in humans like what doses we could go to. So, 737 00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:03,400 uh, we're not there yet. It looks promising right now, though. I think, uh, 738 00:48:03,420 --> 00:48:04,253 it looks like a, 739 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,440 a very promising molecule in terms of both safety and efficacy. 740 00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:12,760 Yeah, I, I agree. Um, C B G just has such amazing, uh, 741 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,200 effects specifically for anxiety in the patients that I've, uh, 742 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,040 turned it onto it. And, um, it, it's great where, 743 00:48:20,050 --> 00:48:24,120 especially when C B D doesn't work for them, I say, have you tried C B G? 744 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,360 And then they're like, oh, wow, that actually worked a lot better for me. And, 745 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,280 uh, and it's, and it's interesting, you know, everybody's, you know, different. 746 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,360 And that's one of the things I like about cannabis is individualized medicine, 747 00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,080 um mm-hmm. , because everybody is a bit different. So, um, 748 00:48:37,220 --> 00:48:40,200 our next, our next cannabinoid we're gonna talk about is T H C, 749 00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:42,120 but let's do that after the commercial break. 750 00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:44,720 So we're gonna take a short break and be right back. 751 00:48:44,940 --> 00:48:46,360 You are listening to Shaping Fire, 752 00:48:46,420 --> 00:48:50,280 and my guest today is Neuroscientist Hunter Land. And, you know, 753 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,760 without these advertisers shaping Fire would not happen. 754 00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:56,320 So please support them and let them know you heard them on Shaping Fire 755 00:48:59,980 --> 00:49:03,200 Online. Cannabis Seed distributors often seem to be all the same, 756 00:49:03,580 --> 00:49:07,520 but Multiverse Beans constantly works to provide you with cannabis seeds and a 757 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,760 buying experience that you won't find elsewhere. 758 00:49:10,570 --> 00:49:14,560 Multiverse Beans works directly with the breeders to secure as many packs of 759 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,000 your favorites as possible so that they have your favorite beans long after 760 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,160 others have sold out. 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It's pretty simple, really. 798 00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:42,530 Advertising does not have to be all whizzbang, smoke and mirrors nowadays. 799 00:51:43,090 --> 00:51:47,250 I find that people prefer just to be spoken to calmly, accurately, 800 00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:51,130 and with good intentions. If you wanna make your own commercial spot, well, 801 00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:54,410 you can do that too. During these pandemic days, 802 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,650 conventions and cannabis events are pretty poorly attended, 803 00:51:57,950 --> 00:52:02,730 but podcasts listening is skyrocketing with a commercial on 804 00:52:02,730 --> 00:52:03,350 shaping fire. 805 00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:07,690 You'll reach your customers in the privacy of their headphones right now and 806 00:52:07,690 --> 00:52:11,730 will continue to reach new listeners as they explore the shaping Fire Back 807 00:52:11,730 --> 00:52:14,450 catalog of episodes again and again for years, 808 00:52:15,890 --> 00:52:20,890 a spot on shaping fire costs less than a printed postcard per person, 809 00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:25,610 and the shaping fire audience is full of smart cannabis enthusiasts, 810 00:52:26,410 --> 00:52:29,770 cultivators, and entrepreneurs who are always curious to learn. 811 00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:35,450 Do yourself a solid and contact us today for rates on podcast and Instagram 812 00:52:35,930 --> 00:52:36,763 advertising, 813 00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:41,570 email hotspot@shapingfire.com to find out more. 814 00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:47,770 One of the challenges with buying Auto Flower seeds is that often you'll have as 815 00:52:47,770 --> 00:52:52,210 many different FENOs as you'll have seeds in a pack. That can be fun, sure, 816 00:52:52,310 --> 00:52:57,130 but so many varieties in one pack is a sign of an immature seed line that 817 00:52:57,130 --> 00:52:58,210 hasn't been worked enough. 818 00:52:59,290 --> 00:53:03,170 I prefer my auto flowers to be worked enough that each pheno in the pack really 819 00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:05,570 captures the aspects that the breeder was intending. 820 00:53:06,550 --> 00:53:10,600 This is why I recommend Nome Automatics to my friends and listeners who grow 821 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,400 automatic flowering cannabis seeds. 822 00:53:13,550 --> 00:53:16,320 Nome Automatic Seeds are not just crossed and released. 823 00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:21,000 They are painstakingly sifted again and again tested in a wide range of 824 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,560 conditions and taken to a level of maturity that each plant will be recognizable 825 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,520 by its traits, traits that were hard earned, 826 00:53:28,780 --> 00:53:33,360 so that you can have your best growth cycle ever over the last 10 years. 827 00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:37,600 Nome Automatics founder Dan Jimmy has become a trusted breeder, 828 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,480 and he continues to pour his passion of breeding cannabis into every variety he 829 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,040 releases for you to grow. 830 00:53:44,050 --> 00:53:49,040 Check out the G Nom automatics Instagram at nom underscore automatics 831 00:53:49,260 --> 00:53:51,400 to see the impressive plants folks are growing. 832 00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:57,000 You can score no automatic seeds in feminized or regular at your favorite seed 833 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,360 provider listed in the vendor section of their website. 834 00:54:00,210 --> 00:54:04,160 Commercial cannabis farms across the country love growing g Nome automatics 835 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,880 because of their consistency from seed to seed. 836 00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:11,840 Short grow times t h C percentages and colorful bag appeal. 837 00:54:12,570 --> 00:54:16,280 Farms interested in bulk seeds of more than a thousand should reach out through 838 00:54:16,670 --> 00:54:20,560 nome automatics.com. While on the website, 839 00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:24,480 be sure to check out the Gnome Automatic shirts and other merch section two. 840 00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:28,560 If you want Reliable Seeds, hand-built from effort, 841 00:54:28,860 --> 00:54:33,040 expert selection and experience, choose Gnome automatics. 842 00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:37,590 Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Shloss, 843 00:54:37,610 --> 00:54:41,070 and my guest today is Neuroscientist Hunter Land. 844 00:54:41,770 --> 00:54:46,190 So let's pick back up right where we were with, uh, T h C targets or, or, 845 00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:48,630 or THCs functionality. 'cause you know, we, we, 846 00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:53,110 we talked a lot about our familiarity and the substantial body of research we 847 00:54:53,110 --> 00:54:57,870 have in C B D cannabidiol, and then how we have less research in C B G, 848 00:54:58,050 --> 00:55:01,430 but we're already seeing all of these fantastic results anecdotally, 849 00:55:01,450 --> 00:55:04,790 and we're starting to see them in the lab as well. Well, T H c, 850 00:55:04,790 --> 00:55:09,230 which is the cannabinoid that, uh, most people love first in cannabis, 851 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:13,950 when they get turned onto it, um, you know, it, it acts in, um, very, 852 00:55:14,250 --> 00:55:17,430 uh, different ways than the other cannabinoids, uh, 853 00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:20,830 most of them that we really like. So, so, so why don't you start with that. 854 00:55:21,060 --> 00:55:25,910 What are we, when, when we're, when we're taking T H c, um, with it, 855 00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:29,910 with longevity and wellness in mind, um, 856 00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:33,470 what are the functions of T H C that we're, 857 00:55:33,470 --> 00:55:36,110 that we're looking to include in, in the mix? 858 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,620 Oh, that's a tough one. I mean, in terms of longevity, there's been, 859 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,180 we haven't seen anything that would say that T H C is overtly poor for 860 00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:52,140 longevity. Um, and we haven't seen any major, um, 861 00:55:52,380 --> 00:55:57,100 problems with acute toxicity or neurotoxicity at, at relevant doses. 862 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,740 Uh, and there could certainly be some, some protection. Um, 863 00:56:00,980 --> 00:56:04,260 I would say it's just not incredibly clear, um, 864 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,460 on how specifically that may help with longevity, uh, other than maybe, 865 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,420 uh, some neuroprotection and autoimmune, um, 866 00:56:13,850 --> 00:56:18,420 type components. Um, that's already, that's essentially where we, 867 00:56:18,670 --> 00:56:20,420 where we stand right now mm-hmm. . 868 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,200 So, so, um, let's, let's hit on that autoimmune component real quickly because, 869 00:56:25,540 --> 00:56:29,680 um, you know, there are, you know, autoimmune disease is, is, is at least, 870 00:56:29,780 --> 00:56:34,400 is probably becoming way more common, but it is at least becoming, uh, 871 00:56:34,830 --> 00:56:38,080 more commonly diagnosed. And, and so what, 872 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,160 what action does t H c uh, take in that realm? 873 00:56:44,370 --> 00:56:48,140 Well, again, um, there's been, there've been some studies, uh, 874 00:56:48,140 --> 00:56:51,420 especially around like rheumatoid arthritis and things, um, 875 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,580 of that nature where we've seen clinical benefit. Um, 876 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,540 and there've been some studies pre-clinically that have outlined, uh, 877 00:57:00,130 --> 00:57:05,060 some benefit around these, uh, cytokines. So these compounds that, 878 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,460 um, kind of indiscriminately kill cells. Um, but, but again, 879 00:57:10,050 --> 00:57:14,860 it's, it's difficult to make that broad leap to say that, you know, 880 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,620 um, T H C is, is certainly going to extend, uh, lifespan. 881 00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:24,500 I think if you have a condition, like let's say, uh, and, 882 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,180 and we don't know this scientifically, so just to be clear, uh, 883 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:33,180 the F D A has an approved T H C or t H C components for anxiety conditions, 884 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,940 but let's say that as many people do often share that it helps with 885 00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:42,260 anxiety or sleep, then, then by helping those components, 886 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,860 by helping with sleep or, or pain sensation or anxiety, you may, 887 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,100 um, indirectly, um, or downstream effects may, 888 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,300 may be that you have improved quality of life, 889 00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:57,060 that you have better activities of daily living, 890 00:57:57,130 --> 00:57:58,740 that you feel better as a person. 891 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,900 And that all feeds into this kind of health span category, 892 00:58:03,150 --> 00:58:05,500 which ultimately could feed into lifespan. 893 00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,060 You know, I often can, uh, 894 00:58:08,490 --> 00:58:12,460 suggest to patients who are having inflammatory issues that doing, 895 00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:15,260 doing a, uh, a, 896 00:58:15,620 --> 00:58:19,340 a C B D dominant blend with T H C, 897 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,020 so you get the anti-inflammation properties of both is a good 898 00:58:24,020 --> 00:58:28,380 combination. And, and for me, that would be the, the primary, 899 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,300 uh, longevity advantage, uh, to T H C. Um, 900 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:39,500 are we still seeing that in the, in the research that T H C is still, 901 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,460 you know, uh, considered a beast when it comes to decreasing inflammation? 902 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,540 Uh, in, in some models we do see that that T H C is, um, 903 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,500 an effective anti-inflammatory. We also see similar effects with C B D and, 904 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,900 um, some really interesting effects for, with C B D A, 905 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,580 and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but, um, 906 00:59:03,660 --> 00:59:06,540 C B D A is the acid version that happened, 907 00:59:06,610 --> 00:59:10,620 that that occurs naturally in the plant before we heat it. And I think, um, 908 00:59:11,050 --> 00:59:12,940 both T H C A, again, 909 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,980 the acid version in the plant before it's heated or what we call 910 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,740 decarboxylated, um, 911 00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:22,320 seem to be really important for those inflammatory responses. 912 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:28,080 I think with, uh, the conversation that, that we're having about T H C and how, 913 00:59:28,620 --> 00:59:32,240 um, you know, the, the different things that it can do at different levels, 914 00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:35,520 this would be a really good time for us to address, uh, 915 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,800 the biphasic nature of cannabinoids because I, 916 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,800 I think that it is most obvious to most early users when it comes to T 917 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,000 H C. So will you review that for us? 918 00:59:48,110 --> 00:59:48,943 Oh, yes. I, 919 00:59:49,050 --> 00:59:52,530 I think I'm so glad you brought it up because I think this is probably one of 920 00:59:52,530 --> 00:59:55,770 the more critical, uh, components of being able to use, 921 00:59:56,060 --> 00:59:58,930 especially use T H c, uh, 922 00:59:59,230 --> 01:00:03,010 for its potion potential to treat disease. So, you know, 923 01:00:03,090 --> 01:00:07,490 I think if you look at the literature, um, and you look at self-report, 924 01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:09,530 a lot of patients will say, uh, 925 01:00:10,170 --> 01:00:12,850 T H C at lower doses help my anxiety. 926 01:00:13,230 --> 01:00:17,890 We know it's approved for increasing appetite and multiple indications. 927 01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:21,330 Uh, we know that it helps with nausea. I think those are clear. 928 01:00:21,630 --> 01:00:26,450 But what's also clear is this biphasic effect where as 929 01:00:26,450 --> 01:00:31,130 you go up, then you lose those properties, and in fact, 930 01:00:31,150 --> 01:00:35,650 you induce the opposite. So, low levels, anti-anxiety, high levels, 931 01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,730 massive paranoia, low levels, increased appetite, reduced nausea, 932 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,250 high levels, vomiting, uh, and nausea, uh, the spins, 933 01:00:45,630 --> 01:00:50,090 et cetera. So there is this therapeutic window, um, that I think is in, 934 01:00:50,310 --> 01:00:54,890 is incredibly important. And this isn't, you know, just unique to cannabis. 935 01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:59,530 And T h c, it's also common in like Robitussin, for example. 936 01:00:59,990 --> 01:01:01,690 Um, it could be effective for, 937 01:01:02,110 --> 01:01:06,610 for as an expectant to help you breathe while you're, if you have a cold, 938 01:01:06,990 --> 01:01:10,050 uh, maybe with cough and congestion. But if you drink the bottle, 939 01:01:10,430 --> 01:01:15,010 you're probably gonna hallucinate, right? So there's this therapeutic window, 940 01:01:15,150 --> 01:01:17,210 and I think that's where T H C sits. 941 01:01:18,030 --> 01:01:22,810 The difficult thing around T H C is, we mentioned it earlier, 942 01:01:22,990 --> 01:01:25,010 is this endocannabinoid tone. 943 01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:29,930 So you've got two things and, and patients that are, are, 944 01:01:30,270 --> 01:01:34,090 are a little bit confounding when you're doing cannabis research. Uh, 945 01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:39,330 one of those is how many CB one receptors do they have and where are they? 946 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:44,010 Because that's why certain people can take high doses of cannabis and they're 947 01:01:44,010 --> 01:01:47,770 fine. And then other people take it and they'll have a lot of problems, right? 948 01:01:47,770 --> 01:01:50,370 That they may be very prone to anxiety. 949 01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:54,490 And that's probably based on the dose. Um, and, 950 01:01:54,510 --> 01:01:59,170 and then secondly is if you're consuming it orally, um, metabolism, 951 01:01:59,470 --> 01:02:03,770 and I'm not speaking like metabolism, like how fit are you? I'm talking about, 952 01:02:04,270 --> 01:02:07,610 uh, these compounds that are in your liver as well as elsewhere, 953 01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:12,570 but primarily in your liver. Um, they're called cytochrome P four fifties or, 954 01:02:12,590 --> 01:02:16,650 or SIP enzymes for short. And they break down, uh, 955 01:02:17,470 --> 01:02:21,880 all a lot of plant-derived molecules. And, um, and these, and, 956 01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:26,480 and what the result is, is, um, uh, the components, uh, 957 01:02:26,980 --> 01:02:31,840 the outcome, so to speak, of, of how much exposure gets to your brain. 958 01:02:32,140 --> 01:02:36,200 So certain people just can't break down t h C very well, 959 01:02:36,460 --> 01:02:38,800 and they get very, very high levels. Um, 960 01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:42,920 and other people are rapid metabolizers and they break it down really quickly. 961 01:02:43,340 --> 01:02:47,080 So we have to juggle these two things in research, 962 01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:50,240 and there's no way of looking at somebody and saying, oh, 963 01:02:50,420 --> 01:02:52,560 you're gonna break this down really quickly, 964 01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:54,240 so I need to give you a higher dose. 965 01:02:54,500 --> 01:02:59,360 Or you have more CB one receptors on your 966 01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:03,200 pathways that result in anxiety. So we need to be more careful. 967 01:03:04,420 --> 01:03:08,040 Wow, there's so much in what you just said. Let's see. Alright, 968 01:03:08,140 --> 01:03:12,880 so going back a little ways, um, uh, uh, I will say this, 969 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,720 and you do not have to comment on it, 970 01:03:14,940 --> 01:03:18,720 but it has been a long time since I've thought about robo tripping. Uh, 971 01:03:18,740 --> 01:03:19,100 you know, 972 01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:22,880 you talked about drinking the whole bottle of Robo Toin and back when I was a, 973 01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,360 a a, you know, young freelance, um, 974 01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:31,320 pharmacist, if you will, in college , um, you know, you know, 975 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,120 it was something that we heard you could do and so and so, you know, 976 01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:35,880 you gotta get the right kind and all this kind of stuff. 977 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,320 And so we tried it and it's, it's, it's, it's really unpleasant for, 978 01:03:39,620 --> 01:03:43,520 for your gut and everything. Um, but oh gosh, mm-hmm. , um, yeah, 979 01:03:43,660 --> 01:03:48,120 so I I I haven't thought about that in 25 years. So, so that's interesting. Um, 980 01:03:48,460 --> 01:03:53,160 uh, the, the second thing is, is, um, you know, the, we were, 981 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:58,040 when we're talking about each person is going to have their own, 982 01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,200 I don't know what you'd call it, but a biphasic threshold for T H c, 983 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,320 I think that's another good reason why when people start to use, um, 984 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,800 cannabis medicine for the first time, that includes T H C, 985 01:04:11,070 --> 01:04:15,480 that you always start low and slow because you may be 986 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,280 particularly sensitive. You may not be, but, 987 01:04:18,460 --> 01:04:21,280 but it's better to start slow and, 988 01:04:21,340 --> 01:04:24,080 and work your way up based on an, 989 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:28,920 an actual plan of the results you want instead of just assuming you're gonna be 990 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:33,400 fine and starting high, and then having to pay the piper because, um, 991 01:04:33,780 --> 01:04:38,640 you know, when, when T H C goes from, you know, jolly good and relaxing to, 992 01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:42,600 oh my God, I'm, I'm freaking out and do I need to call paramedics? 993 01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,920 Which you don't, but you might, you definitely think you might like that. 994 01:04:46,030 --> 01:04:47,960 That is a really bad day at the office. 995 01:04:49,140 --> 01:04:53,880 It is bad. It is. You know, t h c induced psychosis is pretty scary. I've, 996 01:04:54,110 --> 01:04:58,560 I've witnessed some high dose T H C studies. Um, the F d A in, 997 01:04:58,580 --> 01:04:59,960 in some cases, um, 998 01:05:00,250 --> 01:05:03,760 wants you to do high dose studies to figure out where this threshold is, 999 01:05:03,980 --> 01:05:08,240 and it can be quite scary. And when we did some of that work with avx, uh, 1000 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,520 patients had to be sedated. So, um, remember earlier when we were talking about, 1001 01:05:13,740 --> 01:05:15,720 um, gaba, uh, the, 1002 01:05:15,740 --> 01:05:20,320 the benzo like effect being cut off by CB one receptors. 1003 01:05:20,660 --> 01:05:23,680 Um, that's one of the reasons that you get this anxiety. 1004 01:05:23,780 --> 01:05:28,720 So one of the treatments, uh, to, to prevent that is to give, uh, 1005 01:05:28,900 --> 01:05:29,320 benzos. 1006 01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,840 And that's often what can happen in hospital settings when patients get this 1007 01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:38,560 massive paranoia. So it is, it is scary. Um, with, 1008 01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:42,160 for those of you who don't know what SAV effects is, it's a, um, 1009 01:05:42,630 --> 01:05:47,520 it's a basically a 50 50 blend of a two different 1010 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:52,440 plants high T H C and high C B D plant, um, that was used in clinical trials. 1011 01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:57,480 And a lot of the research that we have around cannabinoids is based on that 1012 01:05:57,890 --> 01:06:01,720 particular medicine that's approved, you know, 1013 01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:06,680 in about 28 countries, but not in the us. And when the, they did those trials, 1014 01:06:07,220 --> 01:06:09,280 um, as they continue to learn about it, 1015 01:06:09,470 --> 01:06:14,440 they had a self titration built into the clinical trials. 1016 01:06:14,540 --> 01:06:18,760 And this is something I worked on, uh, in, in a, 1017 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,440 a good bit of depth. And, um, you know, 1018 01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:23,760 we would see patients kind of all over the map. 1019 01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:28,160 Some would have six administrations a day, and some would have 12, 1020 01:06:28,340 --> 01:06:29,920 and you could never look at them and tell, 1021 01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:34,200 and we asked them to balance the safety and efficacy, 1022 01:06:34,260 --> 01:06:38,120 so to go up to the point where they felt like it was helping and they weren't 1023 01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:39,920 getting bad side effects. And, 1024 01:06:39,980 --> 01:06:44,200 and I think that's a good rule of thumb if you're using T H C, um, 1025 01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,400 actually going to the point where you're intoxicated may be negative. Uh, 1026 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:50,760 there's some evidence that when you get really high, 1027 01:06:50,860 --> 01:06:55,440 you increase sensation to pain, um, and increase sensation to, 1028 01:06:55,740 --> 01:06:57,720 to feeling in general. I mean, you know, 1029 01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,640 if you go back to the sixties when a lot of cannabis was being used at, 1030 01:07:01,940 --> 01:07:03,920 you know, music festivals, I, 1031 01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:08,800 I don't know that they were doing it to decrease sensation. Um, and, uh, 1032 01:07:08,820 --> 01:07:09,880 and it may be that, 1033 01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:14,560 that lower doses are better for treating pain than intoxicating doses. 1034 01:07:15,300 --> 01:07:19,360 So I wanna take a sidebar because you mentioned a topic that I'm very interested 1035 01:07:19,380 --> 01:07:23,960 in and, um, that it's very hard to find information on, and that is, uh, 1036 01:07:24,220 --> 01:07:27,800 um, rapid metabolizers mm-hmm. . So, 1037 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,720 so I only learned about rapid metabolizers, you know, 1038 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:35,400 about about four years ago or so. And, um, and it explains a lot. 1039 01:07:35,620 --> 01:07:38,840 And, and so I I, I'm, I want to set it up in a certain way, 1040 01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,520 and then I'd just like you to speak to it because, you know, 1041 01:07:42,460 --> 01:07:47,200 in cannabis it is, it is very common for people to have, um, 1042 01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:52,000 dumb internet arguments about dosage, right. . Right. And, and, you know, 1043 01:07:52,100 --> 01:07:55,200 you know, uh, Dr. Russo is, is talking about, you know, 1044 01:07:55,350 --> 01:07:59,800 optimum doses for T H c, you know, you know, well under, uh, 1045 01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:04,520 well under 20% for nearly everybody. And whereas other times, you're, you're, 1046 01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:09,520 you're, you're, you know, I'll watch somebody eat a 200 milligram edible mm-hmm. 1047 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,920 of T H C, and I'm like, how in the hell is that even possible? 1048 01:08:13,020 --> 01:08:16,160 And okay, if somebody has a long-term chronic pain patient, 1049 01:08:16,630 --> 01:08:19,520 certainly tolerance can be made up over time, 1050 01:08:19,980 --> 01:08:22,680 but sometimes these people are like newbies and, 1051 01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:26,840 and they're just eating that and, and it doesn't seem to phase them. And, 1052 01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:31,160 and I didn't really understand that there were these rapid metabolizer people 1053 01:08:31,370 --> 01:08:36,040 until I met a whole family of them. And, um, it was interesting. 1054 01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:40,720 I was, um, you know, aware of their cannabis usage and, and, 1055 01:08:40,780 --> 01:08:44,240 and the doses that they were telling me that they were taking for their various 1056 01:08:44,460 --> 01:08:48,160 issues, um, were like, as far as I was concerned, they were off the charts. 1057 01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:50,760 Like they were mm-hmm. , they were really high. They were, 1058 01:08:50,900 --> 01:08:55,520 you know, to, you know, to to to, to relax after work. You know, 1059 01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:59,560 somebody who was relatively new was, was taking, you know, 80 milligrams of, 1060 01:08:59,660 --> 01:09:03,760 of T H C and R S O. And I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. I'd be, 1061 01:09:04,060 --> 01:09:05,720 I'd be crying at 80 milligrams, 1062 01:09:05,900 --> 01:09:10,000 let alone without my tolerance that I've got from years of use. Right. Um, 1063 01:09:10,180 --> 01:09:12,840 and then , uh, I was at a, uh, 1064 01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:17,240 a music event on the island with one of the people in this family. And, um, 1065 01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:21,800 I watched them eat, um, five grams of mushrooms, um, for their first time. 1066 01:09:22,340 --> 01:09:26,200 And, um, and, and it, and it didn't affect them. And, and they're like, oh, 1067 01:09:26,380 --> 01:09:29,800 I'm rapping metabolizer. You know, it, it just mm-hmm. , 1068 01:09:29,860 --> 01:09:33,160 my body just like metabolizes everything. Like I can't have any fun. 1069 01:09:33,500 --> 01:09:35,480 And I'm like, man, a, 1070 01:09:35,480 --> 01:09:40,200 you're lucky because taking a heroic dose like that without knowing it 1071 01:09:40,270 --> 01:09:44,000 your first time could be also be a really bad day. Mm-hmm. . So, 1072 01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:47,160 so it's, it's weird because rapid metabolizers, um, 1073 01:09:47,710 --> 01:09:52,200 they explain a lot of these kind of black swan events that, 1074 01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:57,360 that as somebody who is trying to support people to learn about, you know, 1075 01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,400 cannabis medicine specifically, but you know, 1076 01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:04,080 the wider field of entheogen as well. These people, like, they, 1077 01:10:04,230 --> 01:10:08,080 they, their biology breaks the rules, so mm-hmm. , 1078 01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,720 would you just speak to the, I don't know, the metabolics of, of, of, 1079 01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:14,400 of rapid metabolizers? 1080 01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:17,280 Sure. Um, you know, it's, 1081 01:10:17,670 --> 01:10:22,360 it's fairly common that a proportion in these trials will have rapid 1082 01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:25,800 meta, uh, rapid metabolizers. And, um, 1083 01:10:25,910 --> 01:10:30,000 there's actually a test that we can do. So it's about $450, 1084 01:10:30,460 --> 01:10:33,680 and you can be tested to find out which enzymes. 1085 01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:37,760 So the enzymes are the components that break down, uh, 1086 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:41,600 these plant compounds as well as other compounds like drugs in the liver. 1087 01:10:41,940 --> 01:10:44,680 And you can look and you can say, oh, wow, um, 1088 01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,280 I have a really elevated, 1089 01:10:47,540 --> 01:10:51,840 or I am most likely to metabolize drugs that are, um, 1090 01:10:52,030 --> 01:10:55,240 through the three a four pathways. So CYP three, 1091 01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,040 A four or two C 19, there are, there are a bunch of these different, uh, 1092 01:10:59,310 --> 01:11:03,600 enzymes. And they could say pretty definitively say, you know, 1093 01:11:03,940 --> 01:11:07,920 if you take these drugs, you're gonna have to take higher levels, 1094 01:11:08,140 --> 01:11:11,160 or they're not gonna work because as soon as they get to your liver, 1095 01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:15,920 they're gonna be broken down immediately. Uh, so that, that does happen. 1096 01:11:16,380 --> 01:11:21,200 Um, and you can also have the, the opposite effect where a lot of patients, 1097 01:11:21,300 --> 01:11:24,960 um, will, will break them down very slowly and, uh, 1098 01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,840 they have to go with ultra low doses, uh, to avoid, you know, 1099 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:31,480 toxicity and side effects. Um, the, 1100 01:11:31,660 --> 01:11:36,240 the other interesting component here too is, um, that, 1101 01:11:36,270 --> 01:11:41,120 that kind of levels goes on with this, is the, um, is the food effects. 1102 01:11:41,220 --> 01:11:44,160 So, you know, administration in, 1103 01:11:44,370 --> 01:11:48,240 let's say a gummy could be very different than administration with fat. 1104 01:11:48,340 --> 01:11:52,120 We know that with T H C, um, if it's taken with, 1105 01:11:52,230 --> 01:11:56,440 with a high fat meal, you increase exposure three to five fold. 1106 01:11:56,900 --> 01:12:01,640 So that brings on another level, you know, you've got this endocannabinoid tone, 1107 01:12:01,910 --> 01:12:03,080 then you've got, you know, 1108 01:12:03,340 --> 01:12:07,840 how quickly or slowly are they metabolizing T H C or other 1109 01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,720 cannabinoids, and then did they take it with food? Um, 1110 01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,720 because then we've increased the levels, um, 1111 01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:18,080 that wouldn't normally be there if you took it on an empty stomach. 1112 01:12:18,620 --> 01:12:20,000 So it gets pretty complicated. 1113 01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:22,200 Yeah, it really does. And, and again, 1114 01:12:22,270 --> 01:12:25,040 this is another good argument for one size fits all. 1115 01:12:25,470 --> 01:12:29,840 Just because your friend is taking this other particular blend of cannabinoids 1116 01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:30,720 and it's working for them, 1117 01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:34,400 doesn't mean that specific blend is going to work for you. 1118 01:12:35,140 --> 01:12:37,360 And we really need to, you know, 1119 01:12:37,370 --> 01:12:41,480 start with the basics and build up your endocannabinoid, you know, 1120 01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,720 medicine exposure over time. And also why I, you know, 1121 01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:51,040 recommend that patients always keep a, uh, a, a dosing journal for any, 1122 01:12:51,140 --> 01:12:56,120 any entheogens. Um, just so you remember what worked for you and, 1123 01:12:56,140 --> 01:12:58,160 and what didn't, and especially what didn't. 1124 01:12:59,150 --> 01:13:01,620 Right. And I would just, I would say in that journal, 1125 01:13:01,930 --> 01:13:04,660 they should also take note of if it, 1126 01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,500 if it's something that they're consuming rather than smoking, 1127 01:13:07,850 --> 01:13:10,740 they should probably take note of what they had to eat mm-hmm. 1128 01:13:10,780 --> 01:13:14,020 and, and, and what the format was. Because, you know, 1129 01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,060 if you take it, it could be so minor, as in, 1130 01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:21,260 if you take it with M C T oil, medium chain triglycerides, 1131 01:13:21,260 --> 01:13:23,380 which is what a lot of these products come in, 1132 01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:27,140 versus something like sesame or corn oil or hemp seed oil, 1133 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,300 the exposure's way different. Um, the, 1134 01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:35,100 the M C T oil kind of carries it great directly to the liver, and, 1135 01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,820 uh, some of these other, um, fats can, 1136 01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,300 can push some of it into the lymphatic system so it gets into the bloodstream, 1137 01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:47,300 but without going to the liver first to get broken down. So, uh, again, 1138 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:51,540 um, it's, I wish it was simple . Yeah. But it's, it's not. 1139 01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,020 That's really interesting. I hadn't heard that about, um, 1140 01:13:54,700 --> 01:13:59,580 sesame oils being able to push it, um, uh, into the system bypassing the liver. 1141 01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:01,140 I'm gonna have to look into that. Yes. 1142 01:14:01,170 --> 01:14:04,460 Some, a proportion of it. Mm-hmm. , and this is kind of the same, 1143 01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,180 uh, technology, if you hear like seds, 1144 01:14:07,180 --> 01:14:10,340 like self emulsifying drug delivery systems mm-hmm. 1145 01:14:10,380 --> 01:14:12,800 or like some of these, um, that are, 1146 01:14:13,030 --> 01:14:17,800 that are used in beverages or fast acting. Uh, most of it's not proven, 1147 01:14:17,900 --> 01:14:20,680 but there are some, uh, data available that, 1148 01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,600 that show that some of this technology can push it quickly into the lymphatic 1149 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:29,600 system and you don't have to wait for it to get broken down by the liver. And, 1150 01:14:29,820 --> 01:14:33,040 um, and, and there's higher levels in your blood earlier. 1151 01:14:33,690 --> 01:14:38,520 Great. So, alright, so, uh, let's move on to, uh, the next cannabinoid. 1152 01:14:38,580 --> 01:14:42,240 Uh, and, and since we already did C B D C B G, and T H C, 1153 01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:46,840 which are our most readily available for, you know, regular folks, um, 1154 01:14:46,980 --> 01:14:51,400 I'm gonna create a basket of the rest of, of the, um, 1155 01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:53,880 cannabinoids. You know, um, uh, 1156 01:14:53,940 --> 01:14:57,760 one that I know that you've done a lot of research in is, uh, uh, can flavin, 1157 01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:02,400 but also there's, there's all these other, uh, phytocannabinoids that, that, 1158 01:15:02,620 --> 01:15:06,520 um, either we won't have the time to talk about today or there isn't even any 1159 01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:07,593 research on them. 1160 01:15:07,780 --> 01:15:12,600 So I would like you to generally speak to them as this for people who, 1161 01:15:12,860 --> 01:15:16,080 um, prefer whole plant, um, 1162 01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,000 resin preparations, uh, like, you know, 1163 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:23,080 what we call many people call R S O Rick Simpson Oil, but like a whole, a whole, 1164 01:15:23,580 --> 01:15:26,520 um, a whole resin extract like that. Um, 1165 01:15:26,820 --> 01:15:30,280 how should we wrap our heads around these, these, um, 1166 01:15:30,530 --> 01:15:35,520 these trace and novel cannabinoids that will like all also be in 1167 01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,120 there? Right. They're, they're not gonna be mentioned on the label. 1168 01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:43,080 They're probably not gonna be tested for, but, uh, but most, many of us who are, 1169 01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:47,320 uh, fans of whole plant medicine, we like them in there because of a, 1170 01:15:47,460 --> 01:15:50,080 of a belief that they hold a synergistic quality, 1171 01:15:50,530 --> 01:15:53,520 maybe some kind of protectant nature from, um, 1172 01:15:53,540 --> 01:15:58,280 having a bad experience and an assumption that they're probably 1173 01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,960 good for us in ways that we don't know. Like the, 1174 01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:05,000 there's a lot of assumptions in what I just said. And so, and so, you know, 1175 01:16:05,870 --> 01:16:08,280 with the goal of trying to, um, 1176 01:16:09,410 --> 01:16:14,360 speak to how these extra components play a role in longevity for people who are 1177 01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:16,800 gonna be designing their own supplementation system, 1178 01:16:17,390 --> 01:16:18,760 what do you have to say about these, 1179 01:16:18,890 --> 01:16:21,760 these kind of like variables that we can't control, 1180 01:16:22,420 --> 01:16:24,280 but we are just assuming they're gonna be okay? 1181 01:16:25,670 --> 01:16:29,960 Yeah, I think it's, I think it's difficult, um, because it's, to some degree, 1182 01:16:30,030 --> 01:16:32,320 it's a little bit of a, a mystery soup. 1183 01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:35,480 And I would say that mystery soup could be very important. 1184 01:16:35,860 --> 01:16:40,800 We know that some of the cannabinoids, um, there, there's one called T H C P, 1185 01:16:41,300 --> 01:16:44,600 uh, that's in, in, in very small amounts in certain plants, 1186 01:16:44,820 --> 01:16:49,360 but it's a very potent CCB one agonist at low levels. Um, 1187 01:16:49,860 --> 01:16:54,000 so that may be of critical comor, um, importance, uh, 1188 01:16:54,180 --> 01:16:57,720 to some of the, these botanical extracts. Um, but, 1189 01:16:57,820 --> 01:17:02,200 but having it there or not having it there could ultimately make a tremendous 1190 01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:03,033 difference. I, 1191 01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:07,840 I would say if you found something that's a botanical extract that you like 1192 01:17:08,380 --> 01:17:13,160 and that worked for you, then I wouldn't, you know, trying to, 1193 01:17:13,300 --> 01:17:16,160 to get something different, you may have a very different effect. Uh, 1194 01:17:16,270 --> 01:17:18,240 this could be down to the terpenes, 1195 01:17:18,260 --> 01:17:22,400 it could be down to these minor cannabinoids. Um, can flavin, um, 1196 01:17:22,930 --> 01:17:27,400 could be of critical importance around inflammatory processes. So, um, 1197 01:17:27,750 --> 01:17:31,240 without knowing what that is, it's difficult to say, Hey, you know, 1198 01:17:31,350 --> 01:17:33,480 this group of other things, 1199 01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:38,240 this other mystery soup is going to help or it's gonna hurt. Um, and, 1200 01:17:38,460 --> 01:17:41,240 and you could, as I mentioned earlier, that that, 1201 01:17:41,390 --> 01:17:46,360 that those mystery molecules could be the holy grail, um, to, 1202 01:17:46,380 --> 01:17:50,600 to treating a disease or they could be counteracting one another. Um, 1203 01:17:50,900 --> 01:17:55,520 and we see this with terpenes and cannabinoids, so, uh, without having it, uh, 1204 01:17:55,580 --> 01:18:00,120 better characterized, it's, it's really tough. It's really tough to say, um, 1205 01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:03,600 because they're all so unique, you know. Yeah. It's, it's a tough one. 1206 01:18:04,220 --> 01:18:08,640 So, to wrap up this particular topic, before we move on, I want to talk, uh, 1207 01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:13,360 briefly about, um, uh, endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome. Um, 1208 01:18:13,460 --> 01:18:18,120 our mutual friend, Dr. Ethan Russo, has been on shaping fire several times, um, 1209 01:18:18,380 --> 01:18:22,080 uh, talking about endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome as it relates to different 1210 01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:26,680 research that he has done. And, um, it's, it's interesting that, you know, 1211 01:18:26,980 --> 01:18:31,160 one of the reasons we want to supplement our body with these phytocannabinoids 1212 01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:35,960 that we are sourcing from the cannabis plant is because our own body 1213 01:18:36,100 --> 01:18:38,880 is not producing the endocannabinoids, 1214 01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:43,800 the endogenous cannabinoids that are made inside of the body properly. 1215 01:18:44,460 --> 01:18:49,040 And so, you know, the, the causes for endocannabinoid deficiency include, 1216 01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:53,600 you know, poor nutrition, poor sleep, uh, anxiety, um, and, uh, 1217 01:18:53,660 --> 01:18:57,760 immune suppressing pharmaceuticals and, um, you know, environmental toxins, 1218 01:18:57,760 --> 01:18:58,320 you know, 1219 01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:01,160 a whole bunch of things that are just generally not good for our human. 1220 01:19:01,420 --> 01:19:04,360 And we get that right. Um, but I, 1221 01:19:04,500 --> 01:19:08,400 I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of Americans are, 1222 01:19:08,500 --> 01:19:12,400 are probably suffering from endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome from the 1223 01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,680 beginning. Um, and so, you know, 1224 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:16,840 I I personally think everybody should be taking some kind of, 1225 01:19:16,940 --> 01:19:21,680 of supplementation to strengthen it. Um, would you speak to, um, 1226 01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:22,240 I, 1227 01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:25,600 I don't know if you can speak to the commonness of endocannabinoid deficiency, 1228 01:19:26,180 --> 01:19:27,680 but would you speak to, um, 1229 01:19:27,820 --> 01:19:31,760 the idea of endocannabinoid deficiency as it relates to, you know, 1230 01:19:31,950 --> 01:19:34,760 longevity and, and how, you know, 1231 01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:39,680 being deficient in endocannabinoids will degrade probably both 1232 01:19:39,710 --> 01:19:44,160 your length of life and your, your health span of life? 1233 01:19:45,580 --> 01:19:49,160 Ooh, that's a, that's a good one. Um, I think it's, again, 1234 01:19:49,190 --> 01:19:53,840 it's difficult to say, uh, definitively. I think we can both agree and, 1235 01:19:53,900 --> 01:19:58,760 and just about everybody will agree that the endocannabinoid system 1236 01:19:58,900 --> 01:20:01,400 is critical to health and, uh, 1237 01:20:01,700 --> 01:20:05,600 can play a major component in a variety of different diseases. The, 1238 01:20:05,700 --> 01:20:10,000 the interesting thing about endocannabinoids is 1239 01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:14,960 they, they're, they're made on demand and they're metabolized very quickly, 1240 01:20:15,090 --> 01:20:19,480 especially most of them inside the brain. Right? And we can't, 1241 01:20:19,620 --> 01:20:23,240 it would be great if we could just test you like a regular blood test and draw 1242 01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:27,600 some blood and say, oh, you're anandamide and your would be right. Oh. 1243 01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:29,200 That would make everything so much easier. 1244 01:20:30,060 --> 01:20:31,520 It would make it so easy. 1245 01:20:31,900 --> 01:20:36,720 But unfortunately the levels in your blood and how quickly they change based on 1246 01:20:36,780 --> 01:20:41,680 stress and environment, um, it, it, they don't match what happens in the brain. 1247 01:20:42,260 --> 01:20:46,600 So if you have endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome, so to speak, 1248 01:20:46,950 --> 01:20:49,720 that affects, that's important because remember, 1249 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,840 these cannabinoid receptors are also in the periphery. 1250 01:20:52,900 --> 01:20:57,560 So it's not just anxiety and mood. It could be joint pain, it could be, 1251 01:20:57,940 --> 01:21:00,320 um, inflammatory bowel disease, 1252 01:21:00,390 --> 01:21:04,760 something completely unrelated to what's going on, the CN ss then, 1253 01:21:04,950 --> 01:21:09,800 then maybe you could examine this and get some idea of, of, of, 1254 01:21:09,940 --> 01:21:13,640 you know, a dosing regimen that would help that. But for, uh, 1255 01:21:14,060 --> 01:21:17,720 CN SS related disorders, you can't really look at it. Um, 1256 01:21:17,820 --> 01:21:22,280 so I would agree with you that it's the endocannabinoid system or 1257 01:21:22,350 --> 01:21:27,120 dysregulation, um, may be a critical component to a lot of diseases. 1258 01:21:27,540 --> 01:21:30,840 Um, is it the cause or is it a symptom? I, 1259 01:21:31,480 --> 01:21:34,320 I think it's still very difficult to, to determine, 1260 01:21:34,420 --> 01:21:38,120 but we do know that it does happen and is associated with many different 1261 01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:38,993 diseases. 1262 01:21:39,470 --> 01:21:42,840 Alright, so the next thing I wanna talk about is, um, 1263 01:21:43,260 --> 01:21:47,360 how functional ratios between the different cannabinoids, 1264 01:21:47,660 --> 01:21:52,200 how that plays a role in your overall health span. Because, you know, 1265 01:21:52,380 --> 01:21:56,320 you know, the underlying idea that, that I'm suggesting that, that, 1266 01:21:56,790 --> 01:22:01,720 that folks find a blend of cannabinoids that work for them and then 1267 01:22:01,750 --> 01:22:06,560 take it, you know, as a daily supplement to keep their endocannabinoid, 1268 01:22:06,900 --> 01:22:11,360 um, strong or their, their endocannabinoid system strong. Um, 1269 01:22:12,340 --> 01:22:16,680 how much of each really does, uh, play a role? And, 1270 01:22:17,340 --> 01:22:19,400 and, you know, I've gone in and out of, 1271 01:22:19,540 --> 01:22:22,880 of being behind functional ratios when I was, 1272 01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:27,760 when I was all new to this, you know, I was, I was very into the, okay, 1273 01:22:27,900 --> 01:22:32,440 do we want a a 20 to one ratio or is it a two to one ratio of C B D to T H C? 1274 01:22:32,460 --> 01:22:36,880 And, and, you know, you know, this ratio is for Parkinson's and this ratios. 1275 01:22:37,140 --> 01:22:41,800 And, and I, and I realized over time that those might be good places to start, 1276 01:22:42,420 --> 01:22:43,253 but really 1277 01:22:44,730 --> 01:22:49,600 every person has got their own functional ratio, I think. 1278 01:22:50,220 --> 01:22:54,920 And so, um, would you explain how you approach, 1279 01:22:55,300 --> 01:23:00,040 uh, thinking about ratios, uh, from a, you know, a longevity and wellness, 1280 01:23:00,540 --> 01:23:03,720 um, perspective as a research scientist? 1281 01:23:05,550 --> 01:23:09,840 Well, in terms of longevity and wellness, we don't know a lot. I mean, the, 1282 01:23:09,940 --> 01:23:10,773 the best, 1283 01:23:10,980 --> 01:23:15,800 the most recent work is one of the kind of first examinations around 1284 01:23:15,900 --> 01:23:17,280 sea elegance, um, 1285 01:23:17,390 --> 01:23:22,160 looking at isolated compounds versus like this botanical drug substance that 1286 01:23:22,270 --> 01:23:26,480 contained C B D and C B G and and T H C together 1287 01:23:27,060 --> 01:23:30,600 in combination. But, um, you know, is that the ideal ratio? 1288 01:23:30,670 --> 01:23:34,000 What happens when you change that? How does that translate to humans? 1289 01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:38,440 I think it's still, um, in the early stages, um, 1290 01:23:38,660 --> 01:23:43,440 in terms of functional race ratios in how they potentially could treat 1291 01:23:43,470 --> 01:23:47,200 disease, I think that's a little bit more clear cut. Um, 1292 01:23:47,930 --> 01:23:52,680 especially in when not to use certain things or when to keep certain things 1293 01:23:52,900 --> 01:23:53,510 low, 1294 01:23:53,510 --> 01:23:58,040 like t h c in way where it may be better to have higher 1295 01:23:58,510 --> 01:24:03,360 amounts of T H C or a or a smaller ratio with T H C and C 1296 01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:07,400 B D. I think that's, that's a little bit more clear again, um, 1297 01:24:07,740 --> 01:24:12,560 to do this research with so many different humans who are all different with so 1298 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:16,560 many different diseases and so many different variables is tough. And it's, 1299 01:24:16,670 --> 01:24:19,720 it's almost, um, like, you know, 1300 01:24:20,190 --> 01:24:23,640 it's a case by case basis. As you mentioned. You, 1301 01:24:23,700 --> 01:24:28,160 you said you kind of have like certain ratios that you think are ideal 1302 01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:32,280 for certain diseases, but that may only be the, the starting point. 1303 01:24:32,350 --> 01:24:35,720 They may be able to be further optimized. Um, 1304 01:24:36,180 --> 01:24:37,760 or on the contrary, 1305 01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:41,720 there might be certain conditions where you don't need to optimize them very 1306 01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,760 much at all. It may just be that, um, it works at, at that level, 1307 01:24:46,430 --> 01:24:47,600 kind of that disease state. 1308 01:24:48,620 --> 01:24:53,000 You know, uh, this, this next thought is for folks who are, you know, 1309 01:24:53,140 --> 01:24:57,240 so far down the path with this, that they are, 1310 01:24:57,550 --> 01:25:01,760 they're producing their own medicine because, you know, as, as we see when, 1311 01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:02,960 when the rubber hits the road, 1312 01:25:02,990 --> 01:25:07,800 when somebody is sick enough and western medicine has not 1313 01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:09,400 been the solution for them, 1314 01:25:09,900 --> 01:25:13,200 and they find their way to cannabis and they find something that works, 1315 01:25:13,630 --> 01:25:16,800 it's a very short path from, oh my gosh, 1316 01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,520 this works a little bit to suddenly they're, you know, 1317 01:25:19,710 --> 01:25:23,960 growing their own plants that are the types of plants that they want, 1318 01:25:24,460 --> 01:25:27,080 and then they're processing it using, you know, 1319 01:25:27,230 --> 01:25:31,600 ethanol and they are making their own custom blends that work for their 1320 01:25:31,850 --> 01:25:36,240 particular body. Right. And, um, it's, it's been great, you know, 1321 01:25:36,240 --> 01:25:40,640 over the last, say, five years with, um, the advent of some of these, uh, 1322 01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:45,600 spectacular hemp varieties that, you know, will isolate one, 1323 01:25:46,060 --> 01:25:50,600 uh, cannabinoid. Like, uh, you know, the, the, the all C B D, uh, 1324 01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:54,800 hemp, uh, plant that, you know, uh, comes from Oregon CBDs or the, 1325 01:25:54,900 --> 01:25:58,120 or the all C B G version, you know, so, so you can, 1326 01:25:58,180 --> 01:26:01,680 you can grow these plants and, and, and make one, uh, 1327 01:26:01,870 --> 01:26:04,920 make a C B G oil and make a C B D oil, 1328 01:26:04,980 --> 01:26:08,640 and then make your type one plant your T H C oil, you know, 1329 01:26:08,830 --> 01:26:13,120 make three different oils and then, and then blend them like a vintner would, 1330 01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:18,120 like, you know, blending a red table wine or something. And, and, you know, 1331 01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:22,720 that's what I had to do after my brain injury to find something that was going 1332 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:27,160 to be a, a low enough amount of T H C that I could, um, 1333 01:26:27,460 --> 01:26:31,520 you know, take it during the day and still be functioning at my best level. 1334 01:26:32,100 --> 01:26:35,680 But then also high levels of C B D I wanted for, 1335 01:26:35,940 --> 01:26:40,160 for the neurogenesis and the brain support. And then, and then, then when, 1336 01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:42,760 when it became available, the C B G plants, 1337 01:26:42,990 --> 01:26:47,720 because they keep my central nervous system from running too 1338 01:26:47,820 --> 01:26:52,440 hot, which, um, which happens to me because of other diagnoses. So, 1339 01:26:52,860 --> 01:26:57,760 so this idea of, of hand blending them, um, i, I think is a real, 1340 01:26:58,100 --> 01:27:02,160 is a real winner. Um, so, so I guess my, my, my, my, I, 1341 01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:06,680 I guess I just would like to hear your thoughts on the gap between, 1342 01:27:07,260 --> 01:27:09,800 um, what patients need, 1343 01:27:10,620 --> 01:27:15,480 how patients become citizen scientists and how so many patients go 1344 01:27:15,540 --> 01:27:16,680 to the, the, 1345 01:27:16,700 --> 01:27:21,280 the licensed market for their first medicine and, 1346 01:27:21,700 --> 01:27:25,400 and it doesn't work for them, like it has worked for other people. 1347 01:27:27,060 --> 01:27:27,893 Yeah, I, 1348 01:27:28,410 --> 01:27:33,230 I'm on board with the idea of blending to a certain specification from 1349 01:27:33,870 --> 01:27:36,510 multiple different plants. So, you know, 1350 01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:40,750 there is a limit to what can be produced in an 1351 01:27:41,500 --> 01:27:46,030 idyllic ratio, um, from plants. I mean, it's nice to think, 1352 01:27:46,750 --> 01:27:49,430 I mean, a lot of people think, oh, you know, this plant, it's here, 1353 01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:54,030 it's on earth, it's for us, it's to cure us. It's to heal us. Um, and that's, 1354 01:27:54,030 --> 01:27:58,270 that's fine, but, um, plants aren't actually here, 1355 01:27:58,650 --> 01:28:02,150 so we can eat them predominantly because of, you know, 1356 01:28:02,150 --> 01:28:06,630 a lot of these are defense mechanisms and, um, they're not, 1357 01:28:06,630 --> 01:28:10,070 they're not bred in a such a way that, that if we, 1358 01:28:10,300 --> 01:28:14,390 that they were so magic that they would just be gone at least historically. Now, 1359 01:28:14,390 --> 01:28:19,030 obviously, we grow them and breed them for recreational use or medicinal use, 1360 01:28:19,090 --> 01:28:20,870 and that's, that's helped. But I, 1361 01:28:21,070 --> 01:28:24,590 I don't think that we will be able to just say, oh, 1362 01:28:24,620 --> 01:28:26,990 this is the perfect plant and the perfect ratio, 1363 01:28:27,010 --> 01:28:31,230 and it will stay at that perfect ratio. I think to your point of saying, Hey, 1364 01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:36,430 let's have multiple different extracts and blend them to a, 1365 01:28:36,590 --> 01:28:41,470 a ratio of active components that we know help at this ratio is, 1366 01:28:41,570 --> 01:28:44,910 is probably a much better approach than just saying, you know, 1367 01:28:44,940 --> 01:28:48,350 some arbitrary named cannabis cultivar, um, 1368 01:28:48,810 --> 01:28:52,270 is the best for treating this disease. And, and unfortunately, 1369 01:28:52,470 --> 01:28:56,950 I think we've seen this in dispensaries in many cases where, you know, 1370 01:28:56,950 --> 01:29:00,550 grandma goes in and she said, oh, you know, I've got pain, 1371 01:29:01,050 --> 01:29:05,880 which should I use? And somebody gives her, you know, AK 47 or, you know, 1372 01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:10,680 whatever. And, uh, that's not . They didn't tell her about dosing, 1373 01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:13,680 they didn't tell her about ratio or, or anything like that. 1374 01:29:13,700 --> 01:29:17,320 She has a bad experience. And her thought is, I've tried medicinal cannabis, 1375 01:29:17,380 --> 01:29:21,360 it didn't work, it doesn't work, and it made me sick. You know, um, 1376 01:29:21,580 --> 01:29:26,120 or you know, they take, somebody says, oh, you know, C B D is good for, 1377 01:29:26,220 --> 01:29:27,440 it may help my epilepsy, 1378 01:29:27,500 --> 01:29:32,000 and they take 25 milligram gummy and it doesn't do anything. And they're like, 1379 01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:36,680 oh, I've tried C B D for seizures and it didn't work. So, um, I think, uh, 1380 01:29:36,940 --> 01:29:40,440 you're kind of on the right track and more on the scientific track, 1381 01:29:40,540 --> 01:29:45,280 and the others are kind of more on the, uh, branding and, um, 1382 01:29:46,230 --> 01:29:47,760 kind of, um, uh, 1383 01:29:48,370 --> 01:29:52,200 optimistic idea that something magical is gonna happen. 1384 01:29:52,940 --> 01:29:57,200 So I wanna finish off this set with a conversation that, um, you know, 1385 01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,720 I know you're really well versed in, and I spend a lot of time thinking about, 1386 01:30:00,740 --> 01:30:04,880 and, and, and because I keep an open mind about it, my opinion has definitely, 1387 01:30:05,300 --> 01:30:09,720 uh, changed over the last, you know, decade, um, of, 1388 01:30:09,780 --> 01:30:14,720 of working with cannabis medicine. And it is, um, the idea of, uh, 1389 01:30:15,090 --> 01:30:19,880 whole plant medicine versus using isolate. And, and this is, 1390 01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:23,280 this is how I wanna, I'm gonna set you up, is that, you know, uh, because, 1391 01:30:23,310 --> 01:30:28,000 because, you know, Dr. Ethan Russo has been my mentor from the very beginning. 1392 01:30:28,300 --> 01:30:31,800 And, um, he has historically, um, you know, 1393 01:30:33,310 --> 01:30:37,310 I dare say ferociously whole plant. And, um, and, you know, 1394 01:30:37,390 --> 01:30:41,190 I learned that from him. And then, um, and, 1395 01:30:41,190 --> 01:30:44,550 and for those who aren't familiar whole plant means that, um, you're, you're, 1396 01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:48,310 you're, you're using a method to extract all of the resin from the plant, 1397 01:30:48,310 --> 01:30:53,270 and then you are, uh, you know, taking that resin orally. Um, 1398 01:30:53,570 --> 01:30:54,990 and then, you know, 1399 01:30:55,590 --> 01:31:00,470 nowadays when there are so many more labs and people are, are, 1400 01:31:00,730 --> 01:31:03,630 uh, you know, separating, uh, 1401 01:31:03,890 --> 01:31:08,750 the resin from the plant and then continuing to extract the 1402 01:31:08,850 --> 01:31:13,670 single molecules of say, C B D or C B G from the resin, 1403 01:31:14,250 --> 01:31:17,430 and then, and then either, you know, selling that as a, as a, 1404 01:31:17,450 --> 01:31:20,150 as a powder or taking, you know, 1405 01:31:20,180 --> 01:31:25,110 that powder and putting into a gummy or, or, or whatever it is. Um, and then, 1406 01:31:25,110 --> 01:31:26,630 and then at the, at the extreme, 1407 01:31:26,900 --> 01:31:30,990 what is going to be become much more common is pharmaceutical products where, 1408 01:31:31,530 --> 01:31:36,150 uh, different components of the resin are isolated and then combined. 1409 01:31:36,850 --> 01:31:39,670 And, you know, I've, I've gone so far when I've, 1410 01:31:39,700 --> 01:31:42,830 when I've been talking at conventions to call this like, you know, 1411 01:31:43,470 --> 01:31:47,350 Frankenstein built like preparations and, and you know, I, 1412 01:31:47,410 --> 01:31:51,910 I'm not quite that hot about, you know, it as much as I used to be, but there, 1413 01:31:52,050 --> 01:31:56,590 but we do know that isolate acts different than whole plant medicine. 1414 01:31:56,730 --> 01:32:00,640 It is, it, it, you know, there's a, um, there's a plateau point where, 1415 01:32:00,730 --> 01:32:04,880 where more doesn't, uh, help anymore. Um, and, 1416 01:32:05,060 --> 01:32:06,440 and many believe that it, 1417 01:32:06,440 --> 01:32:11,200 it acts differently because it's not necessarily working in a synergistic, uh, 1418 01:32:11,260 --> 01:32:15,200 way with the rest of the novel and minor cannabinoids that are in the resin. 1419 01:32:15,820 --> 01:32:20,320 And yet there is absolutely good use for it. 1420 01:32:20,420 --> 01:32:25,000 The first one for me that I had to come around to and embrace isolate was when C 1421 01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:29,080 B D became popular, but before the C B D plants were everywhere, 1422 01:32:29,660 --> 01:32:34,600 and so, and so people were like, we want to take C B D in our, you know, 1423 01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:35,833 cannabis oil, 1424 01:32:36,220 --> 01:32:40,320 but there's no C B D in the plants that we have near us. 1425 01:32:40,940 --> 01:32:45,080 And so, you know, we decided to start, um, you know, 1426 01:32:45,390 --> 01:32:50,080 spiking a type one plant, like a T H C plant. We, we started, you know, 1427 01:32:50,310 --> 01:32:50,600 like, 1428 01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:55,400 like talking about spiking those preparations with a C B D isolate because 1429 01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:58,680 C B D isolate was available before, um, 1430 01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:02,960 C B D plants were in a lot of places, let alone C B D plants mm-hmm. 1431 01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,600 that don't have t H C that are gonna mess with your ratio. Right? 1432 01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:09,240 Right. And so, you know, I I, I first went to Ethan about it, and he's all like, 1433 01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:13,120 yeah, until you can get the plant, you know, you can spike with, um, 1434 01:33:14,060 --> 01:33:16,080 uh, with a powder and, you know, we talked to Dr. 1435 01:33:16,170 --> 01:33:20,200 Sunil Agarwal and he's all Yeah. You know, until you, well, well damn, 1436 01:33:20,480 --> 01:33:21,960 'cause that suddenly I was, 1437 01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:26,960 I was interested in isolate and recommending it that that patients use it for 1438 01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:31,720 this particular purpose. Now, with that big setup, I know that, 1439 01:33:31,940 --> 01:33:33,280 uh, you know, 1440 01:33:33,820 --> 01:33:38,480 you and I have discussed the challenge between balancing 1441 01:33:38,940 --> 01:33:40,640 the kind of, you know, 1442 01:33:41,090 --> 01:33:45,840 ideal nature won't hurt me, nature can heal me, 1443 01:33:45,870 --> 01:33:47,760 kind of like beauty, you know, 1444 01:33:48,010 --> 01:33:52,880 ideal plant medicine headspace that I really grasp onto 1445 01:33:53,630 --> 01:33:56,960 with, with the more, more realistic idea or, 1446 01:33:57,060 --> 01:34:01,880 or differently realistic idea that good cannabis medicine 1447 01:34:02,260 --> 01:34:06,440 is the same every time, gives repeatable results and the, 1448 01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:10,320 hits the goals of the patient. And, you know, I, 1449 01:34:10,440 --> 01:34:13,960 I gotta say that there's so many variables in, 1450 01:34:14,140 --> 01:34:17,240 in making your own cannabis medicine, that, 1451 01:34:17,390 --> 01:34:21,960 that very often we won't hit those goals. And so in, so, you know, 1452 01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:24,280 breaking it apart and putting it back together by hand, 1453 01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:26,160 like a pharmaceutical company would, 1454 01:34:26,540 --> 01:34:28,880 or like you have to do in the lab for your studies, 1455 01:34:29,230 --> 01:34:31,920 that makes a lot of sense as far as control goes. 1456 01:34:32,260 --> 01:34:37,080 But then it also makes me cringe because I really do think there is some kind of 1457 01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:42,080 like unknown X variable of healing that comes with whole plant. So, 1458 01:34:42,220 --> 01:34:42,960 so I know that's, 1459 01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:46,280 this is also probably another topic that you could do a whole show on honor, 1460 01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:47,680 but, um mm-hmm. , but, 1461 01:34:47,780 --> 01:34:52,080 but I know there's a lot of people out there who are making their own medicine, 1462 01:34:52,660 --> 01:34:56,560 who really chew on this. And, and I'd like to hear your thoughts. 1463 01:34:58,110 --> 01:35:01,800 Sure. Uh, I think it's a interesting topic and, and like you said, 1464 01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:05,640 it could be a long topic. Uh, there are a couple components. First, 1465 01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:10,840 I would say that if you're looking at isolated compounds, uh, quite frankly, 1466 01:35:11,180 --> 01:35:15,840 you should be careful about, um, what the excipients are in those, 1467 01:35:15,890 --> 01:35:16,800 those compounds. 1468 01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:20,040 And I think this kind of goes without saying for most of your audience, 1469 01:35:20,340 --> 01:35:23,080 but when you, when you're making an isolate, um, 1470 01:35:23,180 --> 01:35:27,200 and this isn't the case with every isolate maker, there's a lot of, are you. 1471 01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,400 Gonna, are you gonna just, are you gonna define what an excipient is? 1472 01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:30,480 Are you gonna get there? Oh. 1473 01:35:30,780 --> 01:35:34,640 Yes, I'm gonna get there. Alright, cool. But, uh, yes, uh, so an excipient, 1474 01:35:34,950 --> 01:35:39,880 I'll just go, go for it now. Right. Cool. Cool. An excipient is, um, the, 1475 01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:43,040 a component that is not, um, 1476 01:35:44,070 --> 01:35:47,120 what is in that particular, um, ingredient. 1477 01:35:47,340 --> 01:35:49,400 So an excipient like. 1478 01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:50,840 Adulterants in the isolate. 1479 01:35:51,470 --> 01:35:53,400 Yeah, I, you could call 'em adulterants, 1480 01:35:53,460 --> 01:35:58,160 but they're used specifically for the extraction and crystallization 1481 01:35:58,160 --> 01:35:58,993 process for, 1482 01:35:59,260 --> 01:36:03,960 so one method of crystallization to make it into a white powder out of a 1483 01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:08,320 resin is to add things like heptane or pentane. Um, 1484 01:36:08,580 --> 01:36:11,320 and you can, and you can clean those up, right? 1485 01:36:11,700 --> 01:36:15,400 But depending on who's making it, you could have, um, 1486 01:36:15,510 --> 01:36:18,680 some of these nasty solvents in there. So it's not, 1487 01:36:19,070 --> 01:36:21,600 it's not the isolate that would necessarily be the problem, 1488 01:36:21,660 --> 01:36:25,360 but it could be the provider. So I would say if people are using those, 1489 01:36:25,700 --> 01:36:30,600 it would be important to get a c o a that shows things like metals and 1490 01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:35,000 everything else, but also what solvents are present in that is isolate. 1491 01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:36,840 And that's where, you know, um, 1492 01:36:37,060 --> 01:36:40,000 if there aren't regulations in place to make sure the stuff's clean, 1493 01:36:40,350 --> 01:36:42,680 that taking solvents over and over again, 1494 01:36:42,910 --> 01:36:46,040 like natala or paint thinner or, uh, 1495 01:36:46,500 --> 01:36:50,560 butane residual butane could be problematic. So, um, 1496 01:36:50,790 --> 01:36:51,840 just something to, 1497 01:36:51,900 --> 01:36:56,640 to keep in mind when you're using those compounds to fortify existing, 1498 01:36:56,820 --> 01:37:01,480 uh, uh, formulations. The other thing just to point out, uh, 1499 01:37:01,480 --> 01:37:05,560 on the isolates versus the nonis isolates is I think there are certain 1500 01:37:05,650 --> 01:37:08,080 conditions where, you know, 1501 01:37:08,180 --> 01:37:11,920 to get the entourage or this rational polypharmacy, uh, 1502 01:37:12,070 --> 01:37:16,520 kind of effect may not be needed. And, and an example, uh, 1503 01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:19,800 would be in some cases of pediatric epilepsy. Um, 1504 01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:25,000 I don't think the jury's out on how much t H C is 1505 01:37:25,380 --> 01:37:30,120 is good or bad for children. Um, and, and I'm of the, 1506 01:37:30,380 --> 01:37:30,780 uh, 1507 01:37:30,780 --> 01:37:35,760 the group that would say until we know if we can avoid it and get 1508 01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:37,760 the result we want, that may be beneficial. 1509 01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:41,920 I think there's a lot more safety data on C B D for kids. So if, um, 1510 01:37:42,300 --> 01:37:46,680 if I can give a child C B D in an isolated form 1511 01:37:47,100 --> 01:37:50,880 and them be seizure free and not have side effects, then I don't, 1512 01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:55,920 I don't see a good reason to say let's add a bunch of other stuff in there 1513 01:37:56,020 --> 01:38:00,560 if they're already, basically, if the treatment is successful. Unfortunately, 1514 01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:02,160 that doesn't happen all the time. 1515 01:38:02,260 --> 01:38:05,200 It actually is quite infrequent that that happens. 1516 01:38:05,340 --> 01:38:09,880 And that's where you'll need to, to balance, you know, this whole plant extract. 1517 01:38:09,980 --> 01:38:12,000 Can these other cannabinoids, um, 1518 01:38:12,190 --> 01:38:16,640 play a critical role to reducing seizures or help treat disease and, 1519 01:38:16,740 --> 01:38:21,080 and what are those components? Um, so, uh, it may be that, uh, 1520 01:38:21,270 --> 01:38:26,000 that fortifying existing whole plant extracts with other isolated 1521 01:38:26,440 --> 01:38:31,280 compounds is the best way to get, uh, what you call Frankenstein medicine. 1522 01:38:31,300 --> 01:38:35,600 But I would say maybe optimized medication, um, it, 1523 01:38:35,630 --> 01:38:37,520 that may be the only way to get there. 1524 01:38:39,830 --> 01:38:43,920 It's probably, uh, a very similar to the argument you just made. But for, 1525 01:38:43,940 --> 01:38:47,200 for those of us who really idealize whole plant medicine, 1526 01:38:47,770 --> 01:38:52,400 would you make the case to me as a whole plant medicine 1527 01:38:52,970 --> 01:38:57,720 aficionado on why I should be open to the 1528 01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:01,440 kinds of formulations that are presently happening at pharmaceutical companies? 1529 01:39:03,690 --> 01:39:06,390 Do you mean isolated compounds or whole plant? 1530 01:39:06,390 --> 01:39:08,750 Yeah, say, well, like, like, you know, you know, we can take, you know, 1531 01:39:08,750 --> 01:39:12,470 epidiolex or side effects or any of these where, where, um, you know, 1532 01:39:12,740 --> 01:39:17,230 they have taken multiple components of cannabis resin and then 1533 01:39:17,580 --> 01:39:22,510 they have put together those exclusively. So, so it's, 1534 01:39:22,510 --> 01:39:24,870 it's not the entire melange of resin, 1535 01:39:25,330 --> 01:39:29,910 but they have taken the parts that they think are most essential 1536 01:39:30,650 --> 01:39:35,270 to getting the desired results for the patient. And, um, 1537 01:39:35,770 --> 01:39:40,230 but it's not whole plant, but mm-hmm. , there are reasons for it. 1538 01:39:40,410 --> 01:39:44,550 So I, I, you know, as somebody who, like, you have a foot in both camps, right? 1539 01:39:44,550 --> 01:39:48,070 You, you believe in both, right? And so, so for me, 1540 01:39:48,330 --> 01:39:52,630 who is still resistant to, uh, you know, 1541 01:39:52,630 --> 01:39:57,510 pharmaceutical preparations, um, I, I would like to hear what you, 1542 01:39:57,540 --> 01:40:00,350 what what you, what you would say to somebody like me, because, 1543 01:40:00,410 --> 01:40:02,470 so that all of us who think like me can learn. 1544 01:40:03,830 --> 01:40:08,770 So, you know, I would say, well, SAV effects is a whole plant medicine. It's, 1545 01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:12,050 it's literally an extract of two different, um, 1546 01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:14,490 cultivars of cannabis and blended together. 1547 01:40:15,030 --> 01:40:17,490 So you have a ideallic ratio, 1548 01:40:17,630 --> 01:40:21,770 or at least what they thought was an idealistic ratio when they invented it. 1549 01:40:22,070 --> 01:40:25,930 Now, the, the other components, the, the excipients. 1550 01:40:25,930 --> 01:40:28,610 So what that cannabis is in, um, 1551 01:40:29,060 --> 01:40:34,050 isn't necessarily the same as what is commonly available, um, 1552 01:40:34,670 --> 01:40:36,090 in, in dispensaries, right? 1553 01:40:36,110 --> 01:40:39,650 So they use other kind of pharmaceutical components that, 1554 01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:44,530 that may or may not be important, uh, so to speak, for, for delivery. Now, 1555 01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:49,450 Epidiolex is a C B D isolate and sesame oil with strawberry 1556 01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:53,720 flavoring and a, a little bit of ethanol to dissolve that strawberry flavoring. 1557 01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:58,240 And that's, that's primarily done. So, you know, these kids that are, um, 1558 01:40:59,060 --> 01:41:01,360 you know, very sick and off of, 1559 01:41:01,970 --> 01:41:06,760 often they have like autistic like features, or not all of 'em obviously, 1560 01:41:06,780 --> 01:41:11,400 but oftentimes that's what happens in these, uh, cognitively delayed children. 1561 01:41:11,740 --> 01:41:15,960 And if it doesn't taste good, then they're not gonna take it, right? So, um, 1562 01:41:16,420 --> 01:41:21,240 you know, I think in these instances having, you know, a, 1563 01:41:21,480 --> 01:41:26,280 a pharmaceutical that is prescribed by a physician that's covered by insurance, 1564 01:41:26,860 --> 01:41:31,720 uh, that works is, is a great step in the right direction. Um, 1565 01:41:32,260 --> 01:41:36,960 we know that the doses that you need for C B D to control seizures are 1566 01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,320 usually quite high. So, uh, 1567 01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:44,320 from the hundreds to even thousands of milligrams needed to control seizures if 1568 01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:49,200 you were a patient, it's almost like, um, it's almost like dangling a carrot, 1569 01:41:49,500 --> 01:41:51,640 you know, it's like, Hey, we have this treatment, 1570 01:41:51,820 --> 01:41:53,800 it may help you or it may help your child, 1571 01:41:54,140 --> 01:41:59,080 but you're gonna have to spend a hundred dollars a day or $50 a day to buy 1572 01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:02,120 it off the shelf. Um, then it becomes unattainable. 1573 01:42:02,460 --> 01:42:06,640 So having a system, whether it's a whole plant, you know, 1574 01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:08,720 a whole plant extract, uh, 1575 01:42:08,790 --> 01:42:12,800 that goes and meets f d a requirements for being the same thing 1576 01:42:13,520 --> 01:42:18,200 standardized, that's proven to work in a disease accepted by 1577 01:42:18,610 --> 01:42:21,240 physicians and scientists, and, you know, 1578 01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:24,520 whether you're from the thief south and think cannabis is evil, 1579 01:42:24,980 --> 01:42:29,080 or whether you're a cannabis connoisseur where you're like, Hey, 1580 01:42:29,250 --> 01:42:31,800 we've got data that works and it's safe, um, 1581 01:42:32,020 --> 01:42:36,960 and it's covered by payers and insurance, um, is a really good situation, 1582 01:42:37,500 --> 01:42:41,280 um, for patients, uh, until we fix all the other stuff. 1583 01:42:41,340 --> 01:42:46,280 And that could be for an isolate or it could be for a whole plant extract 1584 01:42:46,390 --> 01:42:51,080 that we just know is the same, and because we've proven it worked, um, 1585 01:42:51,500 --> 01:42:53,760 it gets reimbursed from, from insurance. 1586 01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:59,120 I think that's a really good, uh, way to ground that argument, hunter, that, 1587 01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:02,960 that in the end, uh, what is our end goal? 1588 01:43:03,060 --> 01:43:04,960 Our end goal is not whole plant medicine. 1589 01:43:05,020 --> 01:43:09,520 Our end goal is to reduce the suffering of our fellow humans. And if, 1590 01:43:09,660 --> 01:43:14,440 and if we can get there in a way that is safe for their physical body 1591 01:43:14,540 --> 01:43:17,320 and also relieves their symptoms, um, 1592 01:43:17,430 --> 01:43:21,720 whether or not it's whole plant or it's whole plant spiked with isolate, 1593 01:43:21,900 --> 01:43:26,280 or it is a, you know, pharmaceutical blend that was put in a lab, 1594 01:43:26,670 --> 01:43:29,760 like they're all hopefully getting us to the goal, 1595 01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:32,200 which is the reduced suffering. And, and that's the point. 1596 01:43:33,380 --> 01:43:37,270 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and you're just, your audience, 1597 01:43:37,900 --> 01:43:39,910 most of your audience, I would expect that, 1598 01:43:39,940 --> 01:43:43,990 that most of you guys out there listening, um, are not anti-cannabis, 1599 01:43:44,130 --> 01:43:45,750 but there are people, um, 1600 01:43:45,940 --> 01:43:50,070 that are completely anti-cannabis and there are people that are maybe on the 1601 01:43:50,070 --> 01:43:53,880 fence, but they're just not going to a dispensary. They're not, you know, 1602 01:43:53,980 --> 01:43:58,320 and a lot of doctors are not going to prescribe grandma or grandpa, 1603 01:43:58,980 --> 01:44:02,960 you know, um, purple Kush or, you know, 1604 01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:06,680 name any of one of these, these different, uh, cultivars of cannabis. 1605 01:44:06,830 --> 01:44:09,520 They're just not gonna do it. Uh, so if you, 1606 01:44:09,660 --> 01:44:12,360 we want to help that subset of people, um, 1607 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:15,480 whether they're right and wrong or wrong in their opinions, um, 1608 01:44:15,540 --> 01:44:18,360 having a cannabis extract, 1609 01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:23,000 a whole plant medicine or an isolate that can help reduce their suffering that 1610 01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:25,080 would be prescribed by a physician, um, 1611 01:44:25,660 --> 01:44:30,280 has a much higher chance of success than trying to convince them to 1612 01:44:30,590 --> 01:44:34,600 talk to their bud tender or grow their own cannabis and make their own medicine. 1613 01:44:34,870 --> 01:44:37,640 It's just, it, it's not gonna happen for some folks. Yeah. 1614 01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:40,760 Right on. Well said. Alright, well, this, this set has gone a little long. 1615 01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:42,160 This is a great conversation. Um, 1616 01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:44,840 but let's go ahead and take a break and then when we come back, 1617 01:44:45,170 --> 01:44:46,120 we're gonna have a a, 1618 01:44:46,480 --> 01:44:50,440 a nice short set where we're talking about a couple of the things to be careful 1619 01:44:50,620 --> 01:44:54,240 for, um, when taking, um, cannabis, uh, 1620 01:44:54,300 --> 01:44:57,800 to increase your longevity and health span. Um, 1621 01:44:58,340 --> 01:45:01,920 you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Neuroscientist Hunter 1622 01:45:01,950 --> 01:45:02,783 Land. 1623 01:45:05,500 --> 01:45:08,720 You've heard me talk about the award-winning cannabis seeds that come from the 1624 01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:11,520 analytical breeding program of Seth and Eric Crawford, 1625 01:45:11,540 --> 01:45:14,240 who founded Oregon c b D Seeds. In fact, 1626 01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:19,200 Seth was a guest on shaping fire in 2020 to talk about triploid genetics. 1627 01:45:20,240 --> 01:45:25,120 Seth and Eric are now releasing high t h c Seeds for Home Growers and farms as 1628 01:45:25,230 --> 01:45:29,200 grow the revolution seeds@gtrseeds.com. 1629 01:45:30,050 --> 01:45:34,960 Their high t h c seeds are extraordinary in that they will start to flower at 1630 01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:39,480 16 and a half hours of daylight instead of the typical 14 and a half hours of 1631 01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:42,000 daylight. That means in most regions, 1632 01:45:42,470 --> 01:45:46,920 your plants will start to flower outdoors in the middle of July instead of the 1633 01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:47,760 middle of August, 1634 01:45:48,050 --> 01:45:52,360 which means these photo period plants finish in September and not October 1635 01:45:52,830 --> 01:45:55,360 totally upending the photo period seed market. 1636 01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:59,840 Seth and Eric took their prized early flowering C B G line, 1637 01:46:00,250 --> 01:46:03,960 Andre it to some of the most desired verified genetics out there, 1638 01:46:04,110 --> 01:46:08,760 including Sour Diesel, triangle Kush, wedding cake, chem Dogs, Skittles, 1639 01:46:08,760 --> 01:46:13,600 and others. These crosses all express powerful photo period terpene profiles. 1640 01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:18,400 And T H C giving you a great high G T R seeds has a new 1641 01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:23,360 T H C V line with plants like Double Durban and Gigantor that boast 1642 01:46:23,410 --> 01:46:27,360 one-to-one T H C to T H C V. And people want that. 1643 01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:31,400 T H C V G T R seeds are very consistent, 1644 01:46:31,790 --> 01:46:36,320 true growing inbred F ones from stabilized inbred parent lines. 1645 01:46:36,690 --> 01:46:41,320 These seeds are nearly homogenous and the plants should all grow the same. 1646 01:46:41,650 --> 01:46:46,200 There is only one phenotype in every pack available as Diploids and 1647 01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:49,680 Triploids. Seth and Eric's company is still family owned, 1648 01:46:49,830 --> 01:46:51,440 patient and employee centric, 1649 01:46:51,540 --> 01:46:54,520 and partially powered by their two acres of solar panels. 1650 01:46:55,480 --> 01:46:59,200 Everyone can purchase these seeds in the entire catalog of Oregon CBD 1651 01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:02,120 seeds@gtrseeds.com. 1652 01:47:02,580 --> 01:47:07,160 Go to gtr seeds.com today and choose something revolutionary for your next 1653 01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:08,720 indoor or outdoor run. 1654 01:47:11,420 --> 01:47:14,950 Sometimes the topics I want to share with you are far too brief for an entire 1655 01:47:14,950 --> 01:47:18,830 shaping fire episode. In those instances, I post them to Instagram. 1656 01:47:19,390 --> 01:47:23,710 I invite you to follow my two Instagram profiles and participate online the 1657 01:47:23,710 --> 01:47:27,750 Shaping Fire. Instagram has follow-up posts to shaping fire episodes, 1658 01:47:27,940 --> 01:47:32,110 growing and processing best practices, product trials, and of course, 1659 01:47:32,710 --> 01:47:33,543 gorgeous flower photos. 1660 01:47:34,010 --> 01:47:37,630 The Shang Lo Instagram follows my travels on cannabis garden tours, 1661 01:47:37,930 --> 01:47:40,110 my successes and failures in my own garden, 1662 01:47:40,830 --> 01:47:45,070 insights and best practices from personal grows everywhere and always gorgeous 1663 01:47:45,090 --> 01:47:47,470 flower photos on both profiles. 1664 01:47:47,470 --> 01:47:50,670 The emphasis is on sharing what I've learned in a way that you can replicate it 1665 01:47:50,670 --> 01:47:54,990 in your own garden, your own hash lab, or for your own Canna Apathic health. 1666 01:47:55,370 --> 01:48:00,110 So I encourage you to follow at Shaping Fire and at Shang Los and join our 1667 01:48:00,110 --> 01:48:01,670 online community on Instagram. 1668 01:48:05,020 --> 01:48:07,570 After you've caught up on the latest shaping fire episodes, 1669 01:48:07,570 --> 01:48:10,450 do you sometimes wish there was more cannabis education available to learn? 1670 01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:11,530 Well, we got You. 1671 01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:15,370 Shaping Fire has a fabulous YouTube channel with content not found on the 1672 01:48:15,370 --> 01:48:18,690 podcast. When I attend conventions to speak or moderate panels, 1673 01:48:18,730 --> 01:48:21,290 I always record them and bring the content home for you to watch. 1674 01:48:21,990 --> 01:48:24,890 The Shingo Los YouTube channel has world-class speakers, 1675 01:48:24,890 --> 01:48:28,570 including Zoe Sigmund's lecture, understanding Your Endocannabinoid System, 1676 01:48:28,900 --> 01:48:30,690 Kevin Jori of Wonderland Nursery, 1677 01:48:30,690 --> 01:48:33,410 talking about breeding cannabis for the best terpene profile. 1678 01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,650 Frenchy Cannolis Lost Art of the Hasian presentation, 1679 01:48:37,410 --> 01:48:41,130 Nicholas Mahmud on Regenerative and Polyculture cannabis growing Dr. 1680 01:48:41,220 --> 01:48:44,050 Sunil Agarwal on the history of cannabis medicine around the world. 1681 01:48:44,440 --> 01:48:48,770 Eric Roski and Josh Rutherford on Solventless Extraction and Jeff 1682 01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:52,690 Lowenfels on the Soil Food Web. There are several presentations from Dr. 1683 01:48:52,690 --> 01:48:56,250 Ethan Russo on terpenes and the endocannabinoid system too. While there, 1684 01:48:56,350 --> 01:49:00,970 be sure to check out the three 10 Part Shaping Fire Session series one with 1685 01:49:00,970 --> 01:49:04,690 Kevin Jori, one with Dr. Ethan Russo, and one with Jeff Lowenfels, 1686 01:49:05,070 --> 01:49:08,610 and even my own presentations on how to approach finding your dream job in 1687 01:49:08,810 --> 01:49:10,890 cannabis and why we choose cannabis business, 1688 01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:13,450 even though the risks are so high as of today, 1689 01:49:13,450 --> 01:49:15,690 there's over 200 videos that you can check out for free. 1690 01:49:16,270 --> 01:49:20,970 So go to youtube.com/shang los or click on the link in the newsletter. 1691 01:49:21,640 --> 01:49:25,570 Welcome back, you are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Shang Los, 1692 01:49:25,790 --> 01:49:28,290 and my guest today is Neuroscientist Hunter Land. 1693 01:49:28,830 --> 01:49:30,970 So here we are with the big finish. You know, hunter, 1694 01:49:31,210 --> 01:49:36,010 I wanted to talk about a couple of things that folks should be careful of, 1695 01:49:36,550 --> 01:49:39,370 um, when designing their, uh, 1696 01:49:39,370 --> 01:49:42,330 supplementation regime to increase their, their, 1697 01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:46,850 like lifelong wellness and health span because, um, because, 1698 01:49:47,180 --> 01:49:51,320 you know, people do put other things in their body as well, and, 1699 01:49:51,380 --> 01:49:56,120 and nothing in the body, uh, you know, exists in a vacuum. And so, 1700 01:49:56,220 --> 01:50:00,640 you know, we recently did a, a full length show with, uh, uh, uh, 1701 01:50:01,030 --> 01:50:05,720 jhan Markou about interaction between cannabis 1702 01:50:06,100 --> 01:50:07,480 and other pharmaceuticals, 1703 01:50:07,780 --> 01:50:12,160 but I I think it deserves to be brought up here as well since we're talking 1704 01:50:12,170 --> 01:50:15,360 about, you know, wellness and people, you know, 1705 01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:18,840 developing a supplemental routine that they use every day. Um, 1706 01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:21,760 because there is a very, you know, there it's very possible, 1707 01:50:22,170 --> 01:50:26,600 maybe even likely that there will be interactions between 1708 01:50:26,980 --> 01:50:28,920 the cannabis regimen that, 1709 01:50:29,110 --> 01:50:33,640 that they come up with for themselves and other things that they are taking. 1710 01:50:34,300 --> 01:50:39,200 And, um, so I would like you to speak to the idea of, of cannabis, you know, 1711 01:50:39,230 --> 01:50:41,360 drug drug interaction, um, 1712 01:50:41,780 --> 01:50:45,720 so people can understand the lay of the land as they are thinking this through 1713 01:50:45,820 --> 01:50:47,760 on how they're gonna proceed, please. 1714 01:50:49,100 --> 01:50:52,870 Sure. Yeah, I, I think it's a very important point. Uh, 1715 01:50:53,270 --> 01:50:56,710 I would like listeners to keep in mind that, um, you know, 1716 01:50:56,770 --> 01:51:01,510 the reason that we have a lot of these enzymes in our liver and we have our 1717 01:51:01,510 --> 01:51:05,190 liver to process, uh, compounds that we're exposed to, 1718 01:51:05,530 --> 01:51:10,070 and many of those are plant compounds. And the way that these enzymes work, 1719 01:51:10,450 --> 01:51:15,110 um, is when they're exposed to the compound, it breaks it down to something, um, 1720 01:51:15,930 --> 01:51:20,830 not active or usually inactive that's easily excreted by the body. 1721 01:51:21,820 --> 01:51:26,670 There's a lot of overlap on what each enzyme breaks 1722 01:51:26,740 --> 01:51:30,030 down. Um, whether it's a medicine or a drug, a plant, 1723 01:51:30,230 --> 01:51:32,130 a nutritional matter, 1724 01:51:32,350 --> 01:51:35,650 the body doesn't know whether it's artificial or if it's real. It just, 1725 01:51:35,790 --> 01:51:39,970 it sees something that it needs to get out of the body, 1726 01:51:40,270 --> 01:51:44,930 or at least it thinks. And I'm, I'm, uh, per personalizing the liver now, 1727 01:51:44,930 --> 01:51:47,610 which is a little bit odd for a scientist . But, um, 1728 01:51:48,390 --> 01:51:49,810 so it doesn't really, you, 1729 01:51:49,810 --> 01:51:53,930 you don't really see this distinction between natural and synthetic as far as 1730 01:51:53,930 --> 01:51:57,290 the liver's concerned. It just knows it needs to excrete these compounds. 1731 01:51:57,790 --> 01:52:02,690 The problem comes when you only have X amount of enzyme to 1732 01:52:02,690 --> 01:52:06,050 break down one drug and ano or one compound, 1733 01:52:06,430 --> 01:52:10,450 and you also need that enzyme to, to break down another compound. 1734 01:52:10,990 --> 01:52:14,650 And that's one example of where you can get elevations. 1735 01:52:15,070 --> 01:52:19,930 And we see this a lot with C B D, especially at higher doses. So, um, 1736 01:52:20,510 --> 01:52:21,810 for example, uh, 1737 01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:26,490 there's a drug called K Clobazam that's commonly prescribed in L G Ss and 1738 01:52:26,490 --> 01:52:31,330 Dravet to pediatric, you know, really sad forms of epilepsy. 1739 01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:36,940 And what happens is if you take C B D in conjunction with Clobazam, 1740 01:52:37,450 --> 01:52:42,060 both the drug Clobazam goes up as well as the active 1741 01:52:42,270 --> 01:52:46,120 metabolite seven, hydroxy C, B, D, which also works. 1742 01:52:46,750 --> 01:52:50,920 Both of those go up, um, when, when Clobazam goes up, 1743 01:52:50,940 --> 01:52:53,640 it causes sedation. Um, and, and, 1744 01:52:53,740 --> 01:52:57,720 and we saw this in clinical trials and the patients needed to reduce, 1745 01:52:58,010 --> 01:53:02,520 oftentimes reduce either C b D or Clobazam after the trial and, 1746 01:53:02,580 --> 01:53:05,960 and clinical practice to limit this, this, um, 1747 01:53:06,230 --> 01:53:10,960 potential drug drug interaction. Uh, there's also interactions around, uh, 1748 01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:14,480 potential interactions around bleeds for things like warfarin, 1749 01:53:14,490 --> 01:53:19,360 which is a commonly pro prescribed drug for, for people with clotting, 1750 01:53:19,660 --> 01:53:24,040 uh, that need to reduce clotting factors. And, um, 1751 01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:27,760 probably the most concerning thing that we saw, uh, 1752 01:53:27,820 --> 01:53:32,520 in all the C B D research is, um, risk for liver, uh, toxicity. 1753 01:53:32,620 --> 01:53:36,360 So we, we didn't really see any per se liver toxicity, 1754 01:53:36,460 --> 01:53:40,080 but we did see indicators in blood work that said, Hey, 1755 01:53:40,430 --> 01:53:43,280 this might not be good for the liver at this dose. 1756 01:53:43,820 --> 01:53:46,560 And that was commonly in really high doses. 1757 01:53:46,980 --> 01:53:51,920 And it was also common when they were taking another drug, uh, called Depakote, 1758 01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:55,200 which is a known liver toxin. And, and these are the ones we know about. 1759 01:53:55,270 --> 01:53:56,920 They're probably, you know, 1760 01:53:57,430 --> 01:54:01,400 five to 10 other drugs that may, um, 1761 01:54:01,870 --> 01:54:06,280 have this interaction with C B D where it may not be a good thing. 1762 01:54:06,660 --> 01:54:11,240 And that the same thing can be said for some of these supplements. Um, you know, 1763 01:54:11,620 --> 01:54:11,990 uh, 1764 01:54:11,990 --> 01:54:15,600 there's a lot of supplements that combine a lot of different plant components, 1765 01:54:15,660 --> 01:54:18,680 and some of these can be enzyme inhibitors, 1766 01:54:18,860 --> 01:54:23,200 so inhibit inhibiting the, the, the components that break down the drugs, 1767 01:54:23,700 --> 01:54:28,080 or they can also induce them, basically tell your body, oh, 1768 01:54:28,180 --> 01:54:32,200 we don't have enough of this, so we're gonna increase these levels, and then, 1769 01:54:32,310 --> 01:54:34,320 then you're not going to get the, the, 1770 01:54:34,580 --> 01:54:38,400 the quality or the amount of exposure needed to treat your disease. 1771 01:54:38,500 --> 01:54:42,360 So these can be a, a tough little balancing act, um, 1772 01:54:42,460 --> 01:54:45,920 if you're doing it on your own. Um, so it's always good to, 1773 01:54:46,020 --> 01:54:50,280 to consult with a pharmacist or a physician about these potential drug drug 1774 01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:51,113 interactions. 1775 01:54:51,660 --> 01:54:55,640 And for considering the state of the technology and everything right now, 1776 01:54:56,060 --> 01:54:57,840 you know, for, for the common person, 1777 01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:02,400 probably the place to start would be to google your, um, 1778 01:55:02,870 --> 01:55:07,320 your pharmaceutical that you're taking and the word cannabis and start there, 1779 01:55:07,770 --> 01:55:08,800 right? Because like that's, 1780 01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:11,560 that's pretty much gonna be your entry to any of this kind of data. And then, 1781 01:55:11,660 --> 01:55:15,760 and then follow up what with whatever studies you come across, if there are any. 1782 01:55:16,670 --> 01:55:20,800 Sure. Yeah, that would be one way you could definitely do that. Again, cannabis, 1783 01:55:21,100 --> 01:55:23,360 you know, if you look up, if you've got a, 1784 01:55:23,470 --> 01:55:25,960 just a little bit of C b D in your cannabis, 1785 01:55:26,020 --> 01:55:28,600 that's probably not gonna be the same as if you're taking, 1786 01:55:28,910 --> 01:55:33,640 like you mentioned a high C B D kevo of hemp, right? Mm-hmm. . So, 1787 01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:37,720 so dose is definitely a critical component to these. Uh, 1788 01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:42,400 I think it's a reasonable place to start. Um, the other thing would be, um, 1789 01:55:43,060 --> 01:55:47,880 you know, to pharmacists actually are pretty, pretty knowledgeable in this area. 1790 01:55:48,020 --> 01:55:48,853 And, uh, 1791 01:55:49,020 --> 01:55:53,040 the other type of drug drug interaction that we see is pharmacodynamic 1792 01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:56,000 interactions. And what that means is like, how does it, 1793 01:55:56,180 --> 01:55:59,080 it might not be the molecules themselves interacting, 1794 01:56:00,060 --> 01:56:04,480 but it may be that kind of like you're having the entourage effect to treat 1795 01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:05,180 disease. 1796 01:56:05,180 --> 01:56:09,840 You might have a entourage effect for inebriation or sleep or something like 1797 01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:14,200 that. Whereas like if you take, if you drink alcohol with cannabis, 1798 01:56:14,900 --> 01:56:18,960 you know, they're not necessarily interacting directly, but, um, 1799 01:56:19,310 --> 01:56:21,840 they may have a pharmacodynamic interaction. 1800 01:56:21,840 --> 01:56:25,240 Like then if you didn't want to drive the car with your, you know, 1801 01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:26,660 X amount of drinks, 1802 01:56:26,660 --> 01:56:30,640 you might definitely not wanna drive the car with that plus cannabis. Um, 1803 01:56:31,180 --> 01:56:34,560 so those are things, and that, that happens with other medications too, 1804 01:56:34,590 --> 01:56:39,040 like commonly deprive prescribed antidepressants or, 1805 01:56:39,420 --> 01:56:43,000 or a lot of these drugs that are mood stabilizers and, uh, 1806 01:56:43,020 --> 01:56:47,160 things that are for sleep. So you might get these other interactions, 1807 01:56:47,160 --> 01:56:51,160 especially with, uh, T H c, the pharmacodynamic ones. 1808 01:56:51,790 --> 01:56:55,840 I've got one more safety question and then we'll wrap up. Um, you know, we, 1809 01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:58,960 we've been talking about a lot of different, um, uh, 1810 01:56:59,150 --> 01:57:02,040 dosages and some of them are quite high, um, 1811 01:57:02,900 --> 01:57:07,000 for people who are developing their own regimen. Um, 1812 01:57:07,540 --> 01:57:12,360 is there a too high a dose then that can actually hurt? Like, you know, as, as, 1813 01:57:12,360 --> 01:57:13,800 as many of people have said, it's like, oh, 1814 01:57:14,150 --> 01:57:16,800 even water can kill you if you take enough of it. 1815 01:57:16,900 --> 01:57:21,360 So we do know that there's like a maximum for pretty much everything, but, um, 1816 01:57:21,620 --> 01:57:23,240 how, you know, how can, 1817 01:57:23,340 --> 01:57:27,920 how can somebody who's formulating for the first time think about 1818 01:57:28,220 --> 01:57:30,640 the how much is too much question? 1819 01:57:32,750 --> 01:57:36,240 Yeah. Well I think, you know, we've seen, I mean, 1820 01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:38,080 cannabis generally is pretty safe, 1821 01:57:38,100 --> 01:57:42,880 but you also see cannabis hyperemesis syndrome some, so some individuals, 1822 01:57:43,180 --> 01:57:43,750 um, 1823 01:57:43,750 --> 01:57:48,560 just end up for whatever reason over time not being able to tolerate t h C 1824 01:57:48,560 --> 01:57:53,200 very well. Uh, so there is that component that it could change, uh, 1825 01:57:53,310 --> 01:57:58,120 what is safe at the beginning, may not be safe months or years later. Um, and, 1826 01:57:58,180 --> 01:58:00,200 and secondly, you know, I, 1827 01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:05,400 I think it would be a reasonable idea if you're taking, um, C B D, 1828 01:58:05,900 --> 01:58:10,520 you know, uh, in, in hundreds of milligrams type doses. Uh, it, 1829 01:58:11,070 --> 01:58:14,520 looking at your kind of standard liver panel, 1830 01:58:14,710 --> 01:58:18,400 your standard liver enzymes as part of your physical exam, 1831 01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:23,120 I think could be important because you can always see these elevations or maybe 1832 01:58:23,580 --> 01:58:28,400 you already have these elevations and then piling C B D on top of that may 1833 01:58:28,810 --> 01:58:32,680 maybe a risk. So, um, I think it's, it's, um, 1834 01:58:33,300 --> 01:58:37,360 it would be in everyone's best interest to kind of monitor these things just for 1835 01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:38,130 peace of mind. 1836 01:58:38,130 --> 01:58:43,040 Right on. Right on. And, and, and if, and if folks are new to this idea of, uh, 1837 01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:48,120 cannabis hyperemesis, excuse me, cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, um, uh, 1838 01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:51,840 we did an episode, uh, 80, uh, on it with Dr. Ethan Russo, 1839 01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:54,920 whose name has come up a lot today and, uh, and, and it, and yeah, 1840 01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:56,320 he's a great guy. Yeah, he is. And he's, you know, 1841 01:58:56,320 --> 01:58:59,600 he's researched so much so it's, you can't really talk about mm-hmm. 1842 01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:00,120 , you know, 1843 01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:03,240 canna neuropathic medicine without tripping over a bunch of his research. Right, 1844 01:59:03,270 --> 01:59:07,680 exactly. So, uh, so yeah, so episode 80, if, if you're new to that. So, alright, 1845 01:59:07,700 --> 01:59:11,880 so Hunter, to to, to bring us to the close here, you know, we've, we've, 1846 01:59:11,940 --> 01:59:16,760 we have talked about canna neuropathic medicine today in terms 1847 01:59:16,900 --> 01:59:21,880 of, of longevity and, and not only the length of life, 1848 01:59:22,060 --> 01:59:26,880 but also the quality of life. And, and, and instead of like, you know, 1849 01:59:26,890 --> 01:59:30,880 often we think about canna, you know, cannabinoid medicine as, oh, 1850 01:59:31,190 --> 01:59:35,000 this is broke. How do I fix the broke thing in me? Right. Um, 1851 01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:39,920 whereas when we're talking about life lifelong wellness, it's, 1852 01:59:39,950 --> 01:59:44,600 it's more about like keeping the system going and rebalancing 1853 01:59:44,700 --> 01:59:49,640 itself and rejuvenating itself, keeping those systems functioning, um, 1854 01:59:50,500 --> 01:59:55,200 to, to bring us home. What do you see as the, um, 1855 01:59:55,340 --> 01:59:55,700 you know, 1856 01:59:55,700 --> 02:00:00,560 the novel cannabinoids or the research that you are seeing evolve right 1857 02:00:00,700 --> 02:00:05,560 now that hold a lot of promise for longevity 1858 02:00:05,950 --> 02:00:07,640 with, uh, cannabis medicine? 1859 02:00:09,060 --> 02:00:12,920 Oh, well, I think it's a really interesting topic. Uh, 1860 02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:16,120 I have an acute interest in both, uh, 1861 02:00:16,310 --> 02:00:19,520 botanical drug substances that combine or, 1862 02:00:19,660 --> 02:00:22,640 or include multiple different cannabinoids to, 1863 02:00:22,940 --> 02:00:26,640 to whether we wanna say entourage or, uh, additive, 1864 02:00:26,640 --> 02:00:31,400 super additive effects or rational polypharmacy. There's a bunch of ways to, 1865 02:00:31,540 --> 02:00:35,680 to term it, but go to, to treat disease, um, 1866 02:00:36,620 --> 02:00:41,160 in combination by multiple different methods or mechanisms. So I have a, 1867 02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,480 a really big interest in that, 1868 02:00:43,540 --> 02:00:47,560 and I think that relates directly with age-related disease. 1869 02:00:47,740 --> 02:00:50,520 So maybe in preventative medicine. Um, 1870 02:00:50,900 --> 02:00:54,920 and maybe once you've passed preventative medicine, maybe we can, 1871 02:00:55,100 --> 02:00:58,960 we can stabilize those conditions. And, and the other thing is these, 1872 02:00:59,190 --> 02:01:03,040 what I would consider more novel cannabinoids, things that are understudied, 1873 02:01:03,040 --> 02:01:08,040 like the, the acids, the, the cannabinoid acids, so before they're heated. And, 1874 02:01:08,220 --> 02:01:13,040 um, some of these other cannabinoids like C B C and C B E, and, 1875 02:01:13,220 --> 02:01:15,960 uh, a lot of these really understudied, uh, 1876 02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:20,080 cannabinoids that we just don't really know. We know they're active, 1877 02:01:20,340 --> 02:01:24,360 we just don't know where to use them and how to use them and how much we should 1878 02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:25,840 use. So, uh, I, 1879 02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:30,240 I think I've got a lot more work ahead of me as well as as many other, uh, 1880 02:01:30,440 --> 02:01:33,520 cannabinoids, so to speak, uh, in, in the space. 1881 02:01:34,050 --> 02:01:35,960 Right on. Well, um, hunter, 1882 02:01:35,970 --> 02:01:38,720 thank you so much for spending your time with us and, 1883 02:01:38,780 --> 02:01:43,440 and bringing your unique experience that has, you know, um, you know, 1884 02:01:43,510 --> 02:01:47,240 your ability to do complex research in the lab, 1885 02:01:47,580 --> 02:01:51,280 but then the other ability to be able to speak about it, uh, 1886 02:01:51,380 --> 02:01:55,760 to lay folks like us so that we can better understand, you know, 1887 02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:59,720 the cannabis medicine that, you know, so many of us rely on. So, 1888 02:01:59,820 --> 02:02:02,320 so thank you so much for sharing your very valuable time. 1889 02:02:03,300 --> 02:02:04,720 Oh, well thanks so much for having me. 1890 02:02:05,380 --> 02:02:09,160 If you wanna learn more about Hunter Land and keep up with his research, uh, 1891 02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:10,440 there's two great places to do that. 1892 02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:15,360 The first place to do that is his LinkedIn profile at Hunter Land and also, 1893 02:02:15,420 --> 02:02:17,680 uh, where he does his primary research, 1894 02:02:17,680 --> 02:02:20,280 which is at Biopharmaceutical Research Company. 1895 02:02:20,780 --> 02:02:24,880 And their website is biopharma research 1896 02:02:25,340 --> 02:02:26,360 co.com. 1897 02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:30,620 You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the 1898 02:02:30,620 --> 02:02:35,380 show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts. 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I've been your host, Shang Los.