The p second actually broke me second back
in 19 80, this place was actually Lin
on the main drag. The first it was
kind of soy sauce Miso. To the point
where you actually changed my life. New Year's
day 19 89.
Not just Sa as a beverage for all
the culture in history.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode
of Sa, The world's podcast are dedicated to
expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, I
am, of course talking about Sa, S chew
and Our would
And we are recording
at the Japan Sake and S information center.
I know we've been recording online quite a
bit recently, but
Here we are in person at the center.
In the heart of Tokyo. And as always,
this show is made possible with the support
of the Japan, Sake and S you maker
association.
My name is Chris Hughes. I am 1
of your regular hosts on the show.
And today, we're going to be exploring a
very, very exciting topic indeed,
ty cuisine and Sake. So a lot of
events are now taking place in Tokyo is
pretty much back to normal.
The calendar is pretty
c full of various different events.
And Cindy and I
we actually attended a a really, really interesting
and fun event
in the center of Tokyo last night.
The event that we attended was a celebration
of Ty cuisine and Sa.
It was it's a place at a restaurant
called Champ
in Shi in Tokyo, a lovely restaurant, serving
thai cuisine.
And basically, it was... There was some food.
There was some sake,
and
there was various explanation. Actually, there was also
actually,
the, wife
of a, very famous, Sake Brewer, need a
Hong k. And she was there as well.
It was a really fun then, and it
was a great opportunity
to really
find out you know, how well Ty cuisine
goes Sake find out more about it as
a genre.
And it gives me great pleasure to introduce
the organizers, the hosts of that event,
and today's
special guests.
I have with me,
you,
and I have Pam. Hello. Thank you very
much to you both for joining us on
the show. Hi. Thank you so much for
inviting us.
Pleasure is all ours, and you basically come
all the way from Thailand. Right?
Yes. Yes. You're not based in in Japan
normally. Are you? No. So you... You're your
Japanese. Right? You born in Japan. Yeah. But
you've been spending a lot of time living
in Thailand? It's become your
second home, would it be fair to say
that? Right. After, like, I've been living there
for for and half years. Okay. And now
I'm moved the base 2 berlin. Oh, interesting.
Okay. Sure I didn't do my homework with
that.
You're in Berlin or interesting? Okay. Well, why
don't we start? Maybe just tell our listeners
a little bit about yourself,
and kind of what you're involvement with
Sake. It's. Yep.
So I'm you Na, and my career starts
with ke chef. And also, I was a
food editor.
And I traveled
around the world to correct the Grandma's recipes.
Maybe I can introduce it later.
And I met my husband
and,
par heart, and we c founded it,
sa seeker.
And here we are now. Yeah. That's right.
So the company that was,
hosting last night's event is your company, which
is called Sake Si.
And it's it's got an amazing
logo, which is kind of like a a
talk with a with an eye. Yeah. In
the middle. I wanna to ask you more
about that later on. But it's very eye
catching.
And then what what about yourself?
Hi.
My name is Nat, Sea rat.
But tiny very long. So you can call
me Pam.
My background is actually from finance. I was
in finance for almost 10 years.
And also,
now an entrepreneur, and right now, yeah, doing
Sa with you.
So it's a... This this is the partnership.
Okay. So
may maybe I'll start by asking, how did
you do meet each other?
Actually,
our
husband's,
mineral and pat made
together first, and they want to do something
together and they want to make business together.
And after that, we join and we became
partner like 4 of us. Like, it was
more
friendship more than the business. But once we
were trying sa in Japan and pom really
liked it. And we
stopped drinking and
hot are serving pools.
So watches start drinking and husbands cooking, so
that's how we work.
So maybe he already answered this question in
par, but what brought you both into the
world of Sake? I I'm was there 1
particular you eureka moment that you can remember
a little bit of a surprise experience. Tell
was more. Yeah
Yeah. I'll take this 1. Okay.
Actually,
like, you mentioned, our husband, were trying to
talk and doing business together for a long
time. But
until we joined, and then we kind of
travel
together to to Japan, me and my husband,
we came to Japan just for a short
visit, and we were thinking of, yeah. We
should do some, business together. And then,
they took us, so men room you took
us to this
Italian restaurant
na.
It's in Kyoto near na.
And we were there and we were having
this
pairing mule, and they pair
Italian food with
wine and that was this 1 label of
Sa.
And then I tasted it, and I was
like,
this is really good. This is nothing
like what I've tasted before and
right then and there, we discuss Yeah. Maybe
we should
do this because, you know, III like to
drink. She likes to drink. We bonded it
over drinking.
Right. And then yeah. At that moment, we
were thinking, yeah This is really good and
and so I I asked her, you know,
maybe we should try and input this. And
luckily,
she has also some connection, and, you know,
we we approach the brewery,
casa no Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That was
actually our,
first brewery who actually gave us the opportunity.
So have to really thank you, She'll be
sound for that. He's a wonderful wonderful wonderful
supporter,
Right. He's Sa in general, Buddha, and he's
very kind of warm and welcoming and
so actually, you... The Sake were... You had
Casa mori at the event last night as
well. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So
If I'm understand this correctly, you basically fell
in love with Sa and decided to start
a venture together pretty much at the same
time. And, you know, we often say it's
part of
sac culture that it kind of it it
helps bring people together.
It's it's sort of like the tissue that
connects people together or it's, you know, it
has this kind of mysterious power
to create bonds between people
So
it's really kind of, you know, cool to
hear that.
Thailand is not a name that comes up
so often when we discuss
second markets.
But I do know that thai food and
Sake goes really well together. I'm a massive
fan of, Ty green Curry. I know it's
the most is the most, you know, obvious
thing to to say there's a lot more
to ty cuisine than just Ty green, Curry.
But it does go really well with Sake,
especially when actually it's quite difficult to pair
it with a lot of wine I find.
So at the event, last night, there was
actually there was various different dishes
of varying kind of like degrees of spiciness
and things. So I mean,
the sake and the food went really well
together.
So
obviously,
thai food and Sake go really well together.
But I think Thailand is a bit of
a dark horse when it comes to,
sort of, like, the the the overall global
Sa industry? Mh. So tell me more about
the Sake market in Thailand. Is it a
fast growing 1
what potential challenges do you still have to
overcome do you think?
Actually,
I wouldn't say it's a fast growing. It
it took us at 7 years, to get
to this point. The Moment in 2016.
Sure. Yeah. And that got us here today,
not a lot of people
understand,
Sa, Mh first started. You know? And even
some people who are actually drinking Sa
already, they
only drink... They only drink out or think
of the name that they already know that
it existed from a long time ago. So
it took us quite some time to educate
the market.
And,
for us, we're are we are trying to
introduce K sa. So the brands that we
have
I would say it's not the traditional type
of
mainly, not not mainly the traditional type of
ta. So
there is a lot of work to it.
From
the
transportation where, you know, we are the first
people,
the first company in Thailand who did, the
chain,
minus 5 logistics. So we did that from
the Sag brewery door
to our customers door. It's all cold chain.
And that that was 1 of the main
challenge that we had to do.
And then after that, you know, once we
deliver it, to our client, our customer who
has to sell it to their client.
Another challenge is their storage.
Where, you, if they were going to keep
it a long time, they would have to
have, like
a very low temperature
refrigerator.
Which also,
we
actually provide
oh for some of
main partner. We kind of, like, do this
collaboration? Yeah. Yeah. So so we we provide
the the... Is it Is it like a
fridge maker in in Thailand or Yes. Okay.
It it has to be because on, the
the temperature is quite unique. Sure. It's not...
You cannot just use the regular re... Freezer.
No where it's minus 17 No. Right? You
need, like, that range of, like, just below
0. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to
had that, a meet. To to be clear,
the bottles will break if you freeze. If
you freeze the sake, will eventually, the glass
will shatter. Right.
So Wow. You provide fridge for the for
some of the... Not all of them. Right?
So some Obviously, there'll be certain conditions, but
but that's really. I'm I'm not think I've
ever heard of that. Actually before. That's quite
quite unique prospect
proposal.
What are the challenges? Did you go? You
say people like people had an incorrect understanding
about what Sa was? So what what did
people generally think Sa was? What are the
sort of misconceptions like you would come across?
So entire culture. There is this white spirit,
which is also made from rice.
Okay. And,
back then before we do this,
a lot of people's
still have that, mentality that Sa is actually
a spirit. Yes. Similar to S you the
White spirit that we had in Thailand. And
and the sake that was there before. Some
of them are actually the ones that are
a little bit harder harder to understand. Mh.
So that's What? So you join about K
sake. I just wanna, like, clarify
what do you mean by K sake because
there is actually a a category called K
Sake now, which is basically
Sa, which is not what we call in
the West, Sa what they call here what
what we call here in Japan hon or
Say,
basically, the brewers don't have a license to
make that, so they basically
infuse other ingredient? Are you talking about that?
Or is it just sort of K is
in kind of small boutique breweries making quite...
Is that what you mean by K sa.
Interesting. So that was kind of the first
kind of
import into into Thailand, because it's quite easy
to import, I guess, Right? They're less fragile
perhaps. I mean, form for us it's more
difficult. But actually what we think we want
to
introduce to true
Actually.
Did you do any kind of market research
to come to that decision or or is
it just kind of... That's what we like?
That's what we'd like to push? Or is
it like, no No. We think, you know,
people in Thailand were really fall in love
with this? How did it kind of come
about? Yeah. Well, actually,
like, first came from, like, she really likes
Casa.
So that I can see the market in
here. Yeah. Right now. Yeah. But and after
that, because
as many of Japanese do, but for me
as well like Sake was for elder people.
Mh. Old man
Yeah. That kind of, yeah perspective, I had.
Mh But after that, we start drinking with
them, And I also discovered the Sa possibility.
Yeah. In it. And after that, so, like,
after
we talk to C on and after
so, okay. Then if we're gonna do sake
to Thailand, then
if we can,
show
same kind of variety of taste, then that
would be confusing to the market. Sure. Because
it's quite people thinks this is pretty similar.
Yeah. So
because we have most of us has
food background.
So with using that, we
actually pointed out, like, okay. We have this
type of taste, so we need opposite type
of paste, and this type paste. So to
show, like, a variety to... They can see
easily, okay, this too this is quite different.
But,
after that, we found out that is the
regional taste.
So that is our main reason that
we want to preserve regional taste, but this
reflects into a lot into the sake taste.
Mh. So we want to show like not
only the bottles, but behind the stories as
well. Like, okay. This taste is really showing
na
taste or this is right. Because I can
see that with your grandma's project as well.
Right? Yeah. I mean, I was gonna ask,
like, how do you pick these grandma's? How
do you find these grandma's? Do you have
a particular... So I guess it's all about
showcasing the regional? Right. That these grandma kind
of,
basically sort of foster the word, like convey,
not convey but also communicate in a way
through their creations. Right? Through there through their
cooking. They're cooking is obviously using particular regional
techniques or regional ingredients.
Do you have a particular region in mind
before you go out looking for these dramas
Or is it just people that you've met
on your travels, and is it the same
with Sa when you're when it comes to
selecting the breweries? Yeah. It's quite similar. Like,
when I started ground mods recipes. So I
start hunting scrum, like over...
I thought you were gonna say that somehow.
So how are she gonna put it? How
you gonna put it? Hunting grandma. Okay?
And
so I just travel around because I didn't
have home at the time. Right? You can
say homeless
And No. No mat. Right? Yeah. No mind.
We can...
And only, like, 1 carry bag with me
and we can say minimalist.
Yeah.
But, at that moment with my 1 carry
back and just going to, really regional area
into, like, really,
small
towns. Yeah. Because, like, deep in the mountain,
we have more creativity there. Sure. Because it's...
They had to create to eat something. It's
a necessity. Right? Yeah. And that that was
really
unique to me. Mh. I've never seen this
kind of food before and something that I
cannot
taste in other cities.
So I was so bored after I travel
along around the world because the all the
city seems quite similar now. Mh. And all
the big names and all the big brands
and all taste gonna be quite similar. Mh.
Like, they all likes little bit
sweeter side of paste or something like that.
So... But, when I go to Grandma's places,
what they cook. It's what I've never taste.
Before.
So that was really unique, and I really
went into this,
research
and I start researching grandmother's mothers and
then I found out their recipe is really
connected to the environment.
Where they are living. Right. So that is
really similar to the sake market, but the
when I start recording their recipes,
I found out this is gonna be
losing.
And it's not gonna be,
surviving. Right. So because, like, they don't have
person to take care or, like, person to
because They don't see this recipe. It's so
important. For them, it's so normal, but the...
That's why they don't write it and nobody
takes over.
But
Sa
instead. So Sa is, like, they do same
thing. They reflects a lot that
regional taste. Mh. But that they are doing
it for 400 years so, like, long time
to pass it down to the generations.
So this is the 1 I really wanted
to do.
I can...
Okay. I buy
sake from them. That means they really take
care of the landscape.
Like rice fields and you need to get
water
That is from mountain. So you need to
take care of mountains now. Yep. And all
the resources around them. They are taking care.
By making sake. Mh. So those kind of
breweries, we are
naming them cross brewery. I see. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. I think that's correct.
You know, a label to to give them.
We... We used to call them at craft
Breweries right. Until this new kind of definitely
crap wave came along. Yeah. That's because that
is what craft means, essentially. Right.
It is their craft. Right?
So
I wondered like, how easy is it to
persuade these... I imagine they're quite modest. Right?
It's in Japanese culture to an extent to
be quite modest. Right? And I imagine they
probably a little bit confused as well. Like,
why are you so interested in in what
we're doing lately? They've never had this attention
before. So how how difficult Was it a
challenge to get these grandma to sort of
come on board and share their recipes and
especially being in video swap? Because you have
a Youtube series. Right? Will you actually film
These grandma at work. Mh. How difficult was
it to kind of persuade them to... Did
you... Was any persuasion required? Or was it...
You know, were they just sort of was
it? They didn't think too much about it.
It was kind of almost like a natural
thing. Mh. Like, for me, it was really
combination of my cooking skill and editing hill.
Mh. And I went to
local places and meet the grandmother's.
I usually
telling everyone, Like, do you know any, like,
over 80 years old rock and creative dramas?
And that was a keyword for me to
find out scrum. I in because I was
t around. So
I talked to them, and okay. I find
out Okay. This person, I really want to
know. Then I start talking with her and
at the end, she will ask me, Like,
where do you say? And I said, I
don't have a anywhere to stay now. So
she will let me stay. Oh, wow. And
then I start getting close with her. Yeah.
And then, like,
start
do
conversation like, loving story of her or something
like, So it's a trust trust is very
important. Right? Building that connection and trust, which
is which is also I think really important
when you're trying to
kinda build a connection with the Sake brewer.
Right. For the first time. First, they can
be... I think, you know, just as an
industry, At first, it could be a little
bit closed, You know,
sort of if you don't, if you've not
already exchanged cards with the Sa brewer before,
they can be a little bit reluctant. To
sort of have you come into the brewery,
for example, or even kind of to have
that first dialogue about doing, you know, projects
together or whatever you need to build that
relationship, build that trust at first. How did
building these relationships with these grandma?
How does it differ with building the relationships
with the brewers?
Parts of all, like, most of the breweries
male. So I it'll just say, like, okay.
Can I stay over him over now?
That is, like big difference. Yeah. But
it's kind of same. Like, what I really
see is the pace really reflects their
character too. Yes. So If I really like
them. I... That means I really like their
taste too. Yeah. So that is most most
of the time happens to us. So if
we go there and start talking to them,
I really like their pace, then that means
like,
I think we can get along with because
I our...
Like, where we look at is quite same
direction. So, like, we always talk about the
future, what we wanna do in the future,
and
they also talk about their future or the
sake future. So
we want to discuss not only this moment,
but we want to do, like something together.
So it's more now
became more close with them no?
So first, it perhaps you were it took
a little bit of time. Right? To kind
of build this close relationship But first is
a little bit distant. And then over time
it kind of gone got closer.
I think like 1 common thread that runs
through all your projects
maybe I'm mistaken, but this is kind of
what I noticed.
It seems to be all about people.
I think on 1 of your, 1 of
your websites I was looking at. You sort
of have this blurb where you basically say,
like, it's all about this,
how do you phrase it? A to kitty
oe,
which is kind of like, only possible
when you have certain people making crafting the
food or crafting the... I I assume it
will be the same for Sake. Right?
Have you kind of integrated that in you
because Sa can be a bit modest as
well? You know, they often say, like, oh,
no. It's not as that make the.
The microbes, You know, That's that's 1 line
that they often use. How how have you
kind of worked with that? Are you... Is
it the same kind of
you're still trying to put the focus on
the brewers in particular? Or is it something
a little bit different? How do you work
that into your marketing?
That is
my personal side. Mh. Like, with the company,
I'm not sure, like, each of us has
a different, maybe side. But mh my personal
side
it's really, really connected from what I've done
as well. So, like, I always like
producers. So I go to producers because when
I cook
food,
I noticed there is some certain
ingredients
that really has power. Yeah. So I really
wondered, like, who makes it? Like, how come
this became so different. Mh. So I visited
them all the time, and I noticed,
this is the way of living for them.
So that is what I found out. And
after that, I really admire and I really,
liking that. So with my
editing skill. I really want to show everyone
that
this is really
gorgeous your thing. And you are eating as
normal or as usual, but this is, like,
unusual thing. Mh. So I really wanted to
focusing on that.
They might say, like, this is micro or
Yeah. That is true. But that that is
true as grandma too. So really? Yeah. The
grandmothers, they never said I'm a great cook.
Oh, okay. But the I
find, like, they're are really good cook. Yeah.
So that is kind of same what. So
who do... Who do did if brewers say
that the microbes are other ones that do
all the work? What did grandma saying? Grandma
said just like they're doing what they need
to do. Okay. So it's more a necessity.
Right. I'm not doing anything special here. Right.
I'm just trying to... You know, this is
the way that we survive in this part
of Japan. Right. There there's something about the
terrain. Right? That makes it difficult to sort
of
produce quite delicious creations. You really need to
have the skills to do that? They're ain't
quite Right. You know, maybe it's the climate
or maybe it's the conditions of wherever they
are weather or whatever.
And maybe time to Yeah. Like, it takes
a lot of time that they
focusing on. Mh. But that they think this
is normal more but. It it is time.
So
this is same as brewery too, like, they
cannot make just today. Yeah Right? But
their time is so precious and this,
with time, they can make it like, really
wonderful things... Yeah. That was... And in a
way perhaps,
1 difference between Sake brewers and and grandma,
which we Sounds like a funny thing to
say that.
The these these, you know, old ladies are
all men who have these
skills and I'm creating this wonderful food. To
put it in a different way. 1 difference
I think maybe is that Brewers actually don't
really have the luxury of time when they're
crafting their creations. Mh. Right? They're against quite
AAA
strict schedule. Right. They've got to... They're they're
working more towards a consumer. Right?
That's 1 quite a big difference? Yeah. True.
So how kinda how have you kind of
worked with that?
So
this is the thing that we can do
for the future, actually. So the grandma thing
is really precious in a cultural side. Mh.
But because
this is not packaged wholesale.
And
they are not making it wholesale.
So there is no way that we can
get involved
So only the things I could do was,
like, making video after it or making, like,
I write a story of them. Yeah. That
was the most I could do. But for
the sake everywhere. Mh. I can sell for
them too. Sure. And I can talk about
them with
actual their thing. That is really strong that
they can drink and listen to the story.
Yeah. That it's direct way to
communicate to the customers.
And I can talk on behalf of them
to the thai people. So that is, like,
most different thing
And and how... And so going back to
Pam?
Have you visited any other Sa markets
like the Us or you have? Yes. So
how would you say the thai second market
compares with say? Should we say the Us.
For example?
I'd say
for tie, like, like, I mentioned, it's still
a little bit behind the Us. In in
such a way that, you know, we still
need, a lot more
education in the market.
We need more
manpower. We need more professional in the market
as well.
This this come up to actually
something,
maybe I could mention later that, you know,
we we're are also trying to
provide to to to provide the Sake professional.
To the market. Because that is, you know,
I see that a lot of times when
we sell it to the customer,
we
know
directly the story of the producer. Right? We
we want to expand that. But
the limitation is that the people who are
actually
directly facing the end consumer. They don't know
that. So so what we're trying to do
is we do 2 things
we... Actually, every year, we
bring the
our clock customer to the Sag brewery. Oh,
and it's... Okay.
Again, some. Some... Yeah. Some some some... You
you've gotta draw, you you can't, you know,
that maybe maybe eventually, everyone will get. Go.
But yeah. At first, you've got a sort
of select. Right. Certain people to go. Right?
Yep. Yep. So we want them to be
able to communicate to the end consumer. Right?
What the wonderful story of our,
brewer.
And
we are also doing a Sake
education course. So Right. We are partnering with
Ssa sa
as a association. We're opening
courses in Thailand.
To actually provide, more professional
in the market. So they could be the
1 representing
or telling the story of,
the wonderful second makers. Yeah. Because, of course,
there's only so much you can do to
communicate how amazing Exactly is, you know, you
it can't become your your full time job.
You never get an ending game else done.
So you've got to
train the foot soldiers as you were So
you actually, the ones who are going to
be serving the Sake in the restaurants, maybe
it's wine smelling or, you know, maybe it's
just
restaurant staff,
in future staff, whatever,
or people who are doing events privately
in their communities.
So, obviously,
it's very important to have that education. Because
as you were saying earlier and it's something
that we hear in around the world in
all sa markets.
Unfortunately with Sake, it tends to be that
most people have a kind of a sort
of a misunderstanding about what it is. They
don't really know how to appreciate it properly
So
education is really important. So your both your
your marketers,
your
evangelist to an extent and also your,
educators
as well. Are there any other things that
you do and you don't do?
You seem to have it all covered for
the thai market. Yeah. Actually, like, our partnership
was quite well balanced
our husband's
can create the pace. Yeah. So we can
do, like, very nice pairing
suggestion to the older markets too. Mh. And
she is doing finance, so she can side,
like, what we should do or what we
shouldn't do. And, I'm just telling story. Right.
Has the action been in tile? Has it
changed over time? Or is it gonna remain
the same? Have there been any surprises?
What about the brewers as well? Because the
brewers sometimes come visit? You in Thailand. What
is their kind of reaction being to see
the thai market? And then have there been
any surprises for them do you think?
For the brewer
reaction is... Like, I'm gonna say.
They were
really,
surprised because
some of them came to Thailand for the
first time, or others came
to Thailand like,
since 20 years or something. So, they don't
have
image of Thailand now. Okay. So when we
take them to the... Our clients places is,
they are really surprised how advanced tasting menu
we are doing. Right. So,
actually, like, what we pair is the high
end thai food or high end, like,
Makes cuisine in Mexican. Yeah. And not only
Japanese cuisine, but we have more variety of
the taste. We are pairing up.
So that is 1 thing they really surprised,
and they really like how sake is drink
like a cool drink. Now in Thailand.
Our...
Like, we start
ringing in the Nam Mh first in Highlands.
So we
we are showing, like, Sa can be really
lively too. Mh. It's like natural sparkling and
Yes. Season and you can taste, like, it
was more enjoyable than Yeah. Normal sake. So
that was the, first thing we did to
the hotels or those kind of, high end
restaurants. Like, okay. In this way, we can
pair with this like more much like this,
or we can do suggestion.
So that surprise breweries
Right. They really like it because
it's hot in Talent. And when they drink
their Nam okay.
It's really refreshing.
So they're saying, oh, drinking in thailand
feels better actually. Like, it's really nice. Like,
that's Sure was saying. So it was, like,
really
confident for us too. That was... Okay. They
really, like how we serve too. So that
was quite moment for us to.
In in terms of,
also,
customer. Yes. Boom, we we also have this
story. This
late latest event that we did in Bangkok
call, it was last month.
We had
need a hon coming to to Thailand. And
and and we had this event at this
1 Michelin star thai restaurant where we pair
nit lineup up with with thai food. And,
so people were making reservation. And and 1
person
actually reserve and say,
they're allergic to Sake. So they just wanna
join the event and not drink.
At the event we were there together, and
then we were just
a bit skeptical of how he's allergic to
the second. Did you say did you say
you I'm allergic to suck specifically? Or was
it I'm allergic to alcohol. It was specifically
sucky. Second. So... Well that's weird to begin
with this. You're you're allergic to alcohol me.
Right. So so I was skeptical. So I
I told him. Yeah. Maybe just try a
little bit. You know,
I'm not sure, have you tried this.
So
maybe just try something,
and then so Ab he did and the
whole night.
He could not be addicted guess. He really
Like They're like, 1 of those, you know,
miracle priests you know, Oh, I can see.
I can I can drink sucking now? What
did you do? That's amazing. Yeah. That's really
cool. Really enjoyed, and and he was, later
on telling me that, I had passed ex
ex... Bad experience with Sa. So yeah. In
the end, he he he said that. So
I'm gonna put you on the spot now.
And let's focus on ty cuisine and sake.
What is it about ty cuisine do you
think? And you don't have to answer from,
like, a scientific point you or anything. Just
did what you feel,
what you felt when you first tried Sec
and ent cuisine together. What is it that
makes it?
So such a good match?
So my perspective,
high cuisine usually eats with rice. Mh. So
basically,
like, made with rice. The sake is made
up of rice. So, yeah. This is, like,
really good much. First of all, and also,
Ty cuisine is
really a lot of brave in it. They,
like,
sweet, sour and
spicy, and those kind of combination, like, when
you drink with wine, it was too much
sometimes. But the with sake,
then,
somehow,
at that point, Sa became 1 part of
sweetness. Yes. 1 part of sourness. Yeah. So
that... This kind of layer of the taste
very well much with the sake. So I
really like that. It's very much integration. Right.
Isn't it. Yeah. When it comes to any
type of sa food pairing, but in particular,
thai thai cuisine and Sa, I kind of,
I come recon confirm that for myself last
night. Right. What about you Pump? And have
you had... You...
You Japanese cuisine is not your native cuisine.
Right? So
what was your kind of first experience trained?
Japanese cuisine? Maybe I'll put the question the
opposite way around? And how do you think
kind of ty cuisine pairs with Sake compared
to Japanese something maybe.
I think, of course,
from my experience,
Japanese cuisine is something that is very
authentic to the
ingredients. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So so
I think with that,
it actually is
a total different
world
comparing to thai. Okay. We have, like,
spices.
Yeah.
Wide range of flavor. Whereas, you know, in
Japanese Cuisine is is really respecting the
the ingredients. It's more simplistic. Right? Yeah. It
puts, like, 1 particular ingredient or 1 particular,
like, a group of ingredients center stage, whereas
tires is just kind of a lot of
different flavors. Right? And out. Yeah. Okay. And
and for me, I think
it's
sa is amazing in such a way that,
you know, with Japanese cuisine,
it
enhanced
When you do it... Oh, when you you
pair it together, it kind of enhance, like,
the flavor are kind of complementing each other.
And and and that's
1 side of
experience, sag experience with with with flavor. But
with Thai cuisine, like you mentioned is a
a lot of layers.
So
I I find it, you know, both very
enjoyable. Actually
I couldn't test to that. I think definitely,
there is a little layers in in thai
cuisine. And I think sort of Sake kind
of does a really good job of sort
of, like, just getting in between the layers
and sort of interacting in different ways. So
you get a very multi dimensional experience. I
have to say, there aren't many other cuisine
can think of where you get that same
sort of multi dimensional experience. So it is
quite unique. Yeah. I think. But for me,
I think
the key because are there's a lot of
spicy food. Right? Right. I mean, you know,
if you think you've had thai green curry
before and you thought it was spicy. I've
been told that in Thailand, it's on a
different level.
The problem perhaps when you're trying to pay
other alcoholic beverages, especially say, for example, spirit,
something with quite high alcohol, like like Sake.
The problem is that the alcohol tends to
exacerbate the spice. Right. The kick up the
end, which some people like some people don't
like so much, and it can make the
flavors taste a little better and sharp. Sa
doesn't do that. And I think the reason
why... And I was talking to anita Care
as well last night and they're sort of,
you know,
sort of saying that they felt the same
way.
Is the umami
factor that Sake has. Right? And would you
say there's a lot of umami in in
ty cuisine? Yes. Yes.
Because they have a lots of
fermented food. Sure their cuisine. Right. So that
is also, like, 1 factor that goes well
a lot. And also, we are bringing in
or kim techniques a lot. Yeah. That, gives
lots of natural mummy flavor a lot. So
that is really goes well with
noticed with the menu last night. Yeah. Like
you you were in my... You were in
my you know,
Mike 1 of my favorite kind of world
as so to speak, you know. And I
was actually... We were stood opposite this, lovely
lady, Susie,
she's a regular at your events, I guess,
her fan. And she was saying... She's Malaysia
I think it was right. And she was
saying that she's a massive fan of Kim
and Yamaha. And, you know, It'll it'll surprise
a lot of our Japanese listeners actually,
that foreigners,
or people outside Japan. Are so fall in
love with this category because it's not actually
so popular in Japan, I don't think Right.
In comparison. Right. The reason why we like
it so much. Is it's the layers. It's
the complexity,
and it's the, you know, da umami that
that you have with it. So I guess
in the end of the day, cuisine and
and that type of sake is, like a
synergy. Right? Which you can't really can create
with any other type of of beverage. Yeah.
Exactly.
And
it's funny because I didn't drink sake much
before Mh. This business. So that's why, like,
my way of shoe choosing the Yeah. Case
is, like, foreigners taste. So you answered my
questions from earlier. Finally.
But I like it. You you build up
the suspense. So Right. Despite being, you know,
a Japanese,
Say,
you didn't really drink a lot of sake,
which I think is the case for a
lot of people, in japan.
Although I don't wanna to generalize.
But that's a bit of a problem. Right?
So, okay. So
can you... Do you think maybe you you
have any kind of maybe there's any takeaways
that could be used to help
promote to increase the consumption of future. Have
you been working on that?
By any chance so... So that is what
we start doing it this year. Right. Like,
starting from even last night. I had a
feeling that might be 1 of the motivations
Yeah Yeah. Because
what we want to do is, like, keep
keep buying Sake from them. That it's supporting
for them, and that that makes it
supporting environment as well. Yeah. That is 1
thing, But the we cannot buy to support
1.
No. So that is not what we can
do, but the still like to make fans
in Thailand and
to see him or our guy, the sake,
she got the he ko kick
And the Sa and the she our sales
lady. And
she is talking
a lot passionate about us. I was really
impressed by that. Like, you all stood up,
like, at the beginning of of each of
them. Mh. And you sort of talked about
your passion in Sake and about, you know,
what the concept of the event was, but
also the explanations about the food and Sake
pairing as well were really detailed.
Mostly a Japanese audience night. Wasn't it. Right?
Had any of them... Any of the people
who attended have they been Thailand before? Did
you get a chance to sort of, yeah
chat to them? Yeah. What was the general
kind of feeling about the event from them
and they they're gonna reaction? Did it surprise
you or is absolutely? It was actually really
good feedback but, I even get a lot
of
direct message from them, and they were saying,
like, it was, like, wonderful. Then because they
really deep understanding of the
thai cuisine and how to pair with the
sake that surprised them. That is really our
confidence as well. Like, bring back to Japan,
like, where the original Sa started.
The we are the foreign company doing it.
But the... What they really surprised is also,
like what I mentioned Night c was talking
a lot about Hem
or Buddha and Yeah. Like those Japanese words.
Cheers she is passion
singing, and those kind of thing is quite
unique from the Japanese
perspective too. Yes. And how you know in,
by the information that Sake selling to abroad.
Mh. But you don't really see how they're
selling or, like, how much they actually like
or Mh. So and after that, how much
they can do for their pairing as well.
Yeah. And they're also, like, we want to
do, like, cultural
exchange with the Thailand. So our partner part
tom's husband. He is from
Royal family and that his royal family made
Mass curry. Yes. That was original recipe and
that was told in his family. And the
way he actually cooked from the scratch.
About the Moss curry at that event. And
that was really special moment for them to
experience, like,
actual original muscle that you can eat A
royalty as well. Yeah. Like, at least your
your royal family actually does something useful. Right.
Yeah. All the other real families in the
world, You know, Getting all the money and
just being sort of, you know, enjoying a
nice. Yeah. You're doing some useful providing amazing
curry for the populace, You know? Learn how
to cook and provide some amazing food for
us Uk your family in particular.
I joke.
So yeah. I I think I think that's
like, that's really, really interesting. You know, I'll
let you in on a little thing which
I've discovered doing some,
tourist Sa experiences in in japan.
I think it's easier for,
people from overseas to understand
what Kim and Yamaha is.
Because we have a similar kind of culture
when making
bread. We have a this type of bread
called sourdough bread. Right? And that also requires
a starter to make it. So, like, what
I do now when I'm when I'm teaching
people about sack and I have to talk
about the starter. I just say have you
ever made Sourdough over bread before? And they
look at me and go, Oh, the Sake
uses starter as well. There we go. Job
done. Don't even have to talk about what
it is. And and I think during the
pandemic as well, everyone was making either banana
bread Melanie pan in Japan or,
sourdough bread. And and Sourdough starters are made
in a very similar way to a kim
Yamaha also. Belgian beer as well. It's kind
of similar. It there's just... It's in our
culture already isn't it? You know, this whole
concept of making alcoholic beverages of fermented,
food products or you know, just using creating
this starter in the same way. Yeah. I
wanna I wanna kind of diver divert actually
into something a little bit different. And so
pound,
So
you went from finance to food. That's quite
a career move.
Yeah? Yes. That's quite a bold korea move.
But having worked in both worlds? Are there
any... Is there any kind of,
similarities might not be the right word. But
there any kind of interesting perspectives that maybe
you can bring to the world from the
world of finance?
Yes.
Or similarity. Mh
you short drink a lot in both worlds.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
No. I'm about...
Actually, I think for me in finance, what
I did was
supporting client. I was in global markets helping
corporates to manage their financial risk and maybe,
an exchange rate or interest rate or a
commodity prices. Those kind of things that Mh,
I was doing. And
that is
me having to
support the client.
Right?
In in in Sake, I think it's the
same thing. What what we are trying to
do is actually we are trying to support
our customer, which are restaurants.
You know, we want their
food, they're
really good food who actually have some drinks
that are complemented with their food. So
I think in that perspective,
we we are trying hard from our outside,
like, we... When I was in banking to,
you know, research and
For for Sake, it's the same thing. Like,
we want to... Like, you mentioned. We actually
tasted that food,
some customer, we just go as customer files
us before we actually go and sell them.
So we know what, like, what type of
Sake we're gonna be, proposing to them. So
we did that. For me, when I changed
from
when I get into Sake, I also
did,
K sa and also Sa some caused. To
to actually,
support the the client at best. Yeah.
2 very best support the clients. So I
think that is 1
kind of similarity just we we're doing. Interesting.
So it's not just basically
exchanging a lot of money. There's a little
bit more involved with finance and,
impressed, we give it growth.
There.
Almost almost Again no worry.
So
what? Going back to the food in in
Sa.
Do we review you have a favorite sake
and
food match? Doesn't necessarily have to be take
cuisine.
So Mexican cuisine is quite popular in Thailand
as well. So...
Yeah Favorite Sake is so hard. Right?
It is actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard
to to pinpoint. I guess,
it depends on the
location, the food. Yeah. Yeah. It was there
anything you would recommend, like, a a real
kind of,
bombshell pairing that will just blow anyone way
you who tries it. The Everyone must try.
They're gonna try Sa if they're gonna try
a food match in your experience that you've
come across.
So yesterday, what we've done and everyone really
enjoyed was
the moo.
Mop copy. Yeah. It was, like, copy is
the fermented
little
shrimp.
Okay. That is from Thailand. And actually that
ka, Go,
grandma
made and that she brought in. And it
would so good and that kind of
food with the Pod
technique was really going well.
But
that
with copy, and we made it with the,
wild boar. Yeah. And mixed with the,
copy.
And
put on the tofu. And that is a
worm food, and it's not cold food. So
I
much with the wong
because in the mortgage. Oh,
no. And usually, numbers was okay, we shouldn't
do, like, warming up, But this cuisine, like,
we need to, match the temperature. Yeah. And
that that worked really well and that that,
most of them, they were saying, like,
how can you warming up cousin and this
is like actually good. So it was much...
It's like Is the Bud. Right? Who was
wasn't? It's not there. It's not their spritz,
like, sort of,
kind of, like, slightly sparkling. Fruity
Close. But, but it's a bit bit more
sort of savory and a bit more kind
of Right? Yeah. Right?
So there you go. That's pairing that you
absolutely must try
what about pam? What for, you know, at
what aspects of Japanese culture?
Do you like have you fallen in love
with? And how do you think Japanese culture
compares with? Times.
You don't have to make a comparison.
Well,
I actually like to japan a lot. I
come here. Very often.
Actually,
I I love... I think
with the couch it's too aspect. 1 aspect
is that,
they're really
into what they do. So whether be
growing fruits, making sake or doing everything,
I I find that Japanese really pay attention
to every single detail. Yes. Which is,
something that is very,
wonderful movie at admirable. Like,
my daughter,
always say, why is everything so good in
Japan like? Why everything I eat so good
every roots I
yeah. I I think that's 1 thing that
I like a lot about the culture.
And the other aspect is, while working with
Japanese.
Trust is
really really taken seriously here. And and for
us to do... To be doing business with
Japanese. It's really a con comfort, like. Find
it very comfortable where, like, you know,
I know that if
I'm good to them. If I'm always sincere
and trustworthy,
they're not gonna be trained me. They're not
just gonna, you know,
when when they trust their trust and I
I think I find that also very good
working with Japanese as well.
Thailand is Japan's sister, sister,
sister culture. That's really interesting to hear.
You have a particular project which caught my
eye called the 40
Creations. Yeah. And do I understand this correctly
that you want to create 40 creations? Is
that the goal?
Yeah. Why 40.
Did you just have a pick a number
and had a realistic 1 of that.
So I started, I was
20 something. Yeah. Okay.
I didn't imagine. I'm gonna be 40. So.
Close to 40 o. Yeah. But it's not
that 40, but the Yeah. 4 0 is,
actually,
in Japanese. She and what we can call
it. Of course. So, like, I wanted to
make, like, a really good wrinkle with through,
those projects so that is more like shoe
creations for me. So, like, I want to
be, like, really cute entrepreneur
grandmother's in the future.
So I was, hoping to
do the project for the, good wrinkle to
the people. So that it's my gold. You
clearly enjoy creating things Yes. Right? So you
have an a creative itch there? You know,
Have you scratched to that? Or do you
think there's still more projects in the pipeline?
Is there any projects in the pipeline.
So I hey. You can talk about? Yeah.
Now I'm
food sample
artist? Oh.
Do you know food something? I'm trying to
think food samples, of course. Yeah. Yeah Yeah.
Bake food. The the fake food that made
from, like, the plastic or something. Right? Right.
Which if you come to Japan, you can
actually learn how to make Right? Yeah. Mh
And I was born in gif. Mh. And
that that... Which is where it originates. Right?
Yes. I know that. And gif is, like,
good or bad but no 1 for the
fake. So
that is the our identity I can say.
Well, it's okay. It's a beautiful, like,
you know, national heritage. Yep. It's it's a
really beautiful environment. So maybe we can forgive
them for having this fake culture. Right. So
you are a food sample artist. Right. So,
Wake, give us as an example, what is
the latest creation that you're quite proud of
for you. So I start
doing from the outside because there is no
knees in Berlin. No. Other crude sample myself.
But I find out this is really
interesting, like, unique culture
because, like, Pam mentioned, like, we are into
all the details. Right? Like, we are kind
of Ot
mentality in all over japan. And
this food sample it's super Or taco because
Yeah. Like, when I talk to german person
about my project and she was telling me
directly that I really don't know what you
wanna do. With this. Because there is nothing.
You cannot eat and you cannot do something
with No. But
to create, like, really looks tasty thing, like,
with the older
your skills in it. Like, actually, it has,
like, more, like, 90 years old history or
something and I trained at the 1 lady.
They're 1 must, and I learned this skill.
But that this is kind of
so useless and so
cute.
And so amazing this. It shows so bad
so real.
You know, you can eat them, they look
really edible. They look really good.
You know. So if you come to Japan,
and you look at the windows of the
restaurants, like they all have these food sump.
It's big business in Japan isn't it? Yes.
Every restaurant will have food samples. Right? This
is also,
same as sake. I cannot say sake, but...
No. But I think I know where you're
going. Yeah. This is going to be, like,
shrinking Yes. Industry. Yeah. And the it was
a lot in Japan. But the it was
the
a moment like behind.
So I want to
use this technique to, like, when I do
it in
abroad. Then
I can show, like, other perspective of this
thing. So not just only, like, the showcase
of the restaurant, but there is no use
for that anymore. But maybe from the outside,
Mh it has
kind of,
different angle I can show. This is kind
of what we want to do in Sa
too. Like, we don't need to show like,
this was
older people's
thing or any kind of,
hub say, like,
stereotype? Yeah. Yeah. We don't have any stereotype
in abroad. Yeah. So we can create, like,
actual,
value that we can show. You start with
a blank canvas. Right. Right? With no pre.
Well well, maybe some pre.
Misconceptions. You start pretty much with a blank
canvas. Right. And you paint a new kind
of yeah. Picture about what Is. I think
that's the biggest advantage about Selling overseas isn't
something that you can't really do here in
Mh Japan, it's a bit tricky. Yep.
It's been really, really interesting
you know, chatting to you both. I learned
so much about high culture and
parallels that I didn't know existed. And also,
I'm really, really, really inspired and excited for
the future of not only
the Thai Sa market, but also, Sa in
general, I think a lot of it will...
You can kind of import back into Japan.
Right? Lot of the discoveries and,
marketing techniques and things, which I think would
be great for the Sake industry. Can I
finish by asking you sort of both to
You do you have any?
Anything that you wanna share with the listeners,
any projects that you want to share or
maybe a message to listeners, you know, anyone
who's thinking of visiting Thailand or?
Well, I I'd say,
try
Sake with Typhoon. Mh. I think that is
something that, you know, like, you mentioned not
many people have tried.
Yeah,
visit Thailand, and, if you visit, like, just
contact us, and maybe we can list up
our
wonderful clients, and you can drink sake with
thai food or sake with Mexican and Thailand
or
drinking Sake in Thailand. It's quite experienced. So,
yeah, I think that would be great if
you can do it. Wonderful. And we will
put, like, all the information about, you know,
your social media, and the websites and things
in our show notes. But
is that kind of, like a a social
media handle
you can share now?
Our
instagram is, Sa.
Sa.
Seekers us into go look look. Right? We
hunt... Stuck. We haven't... That's a great name.
Oh, I have a bonus question actually. So
this is kind of, like, I forgot to
ask this. So I'm gonna ask this 1.
The logo.
So Cindy and I were discussing this last
night. And the first thing that came to
mind is it's almost got like an Egyptian
hi kind of looked to it. Almost like
a cult
religion kind of religion... The religious cult look
to it. Was that intentional or what's the
inspiration behind in donald? Chili. I would
surprise in a good way with fifth logo.
Actually, thai team handled this local and poor
Japanese
if we do sa,
we're not gonna do this kind of logo.
No. I don't think so. Right? No. No
No. So this is, like, really
wow, moment to me actually with my logo.
So Yeah. Yeah. I think for us, well,
what we have a a designer. Yeah. In
in Thailand. And,
what we briefed them is actually, you know,
normally, like, we we want to
move away from the traditional
of Sake. Oh. Yeah. So so that's what
the the first brief is. And then, you
know, we seek second.
So
Yeah We we kinda wanna incorporate that. And
because we want to move away from nutritional
side, like, the brief was just you know,
we wanted to make it fun. It definitely
is important. Because what we are doing for
us as a, like, our culture is actually
we're doing it
because we enjoy it. Yeah. And and we
want our logo to reflect that. Yeah. Yeah.
I thought... It's just like it's the all
seeing
it's like your drinking like you have this
eye looking
but you drink second. Are you enjoying second?
But, yeah. I'm looking at you. But it's
gonna cool. It's very eye catching.
I think you you you couldn't create a
brand called Sa and not have an eye
on there. Something. Right Right. Okay. Well,
Thank you so much. Thank you both for
taking the time out of your very busy
schedule. I'm sure
to come and chat with us, chat with
me today.
I really enjoyed.
Listening to your story and learning more about
the the Tai market. And like I, I'm
really excited for the future. Thank you so
much. Thank you for us it was enjoyable.
Thank you very much.
And I think that will do it for
this episode of Sa.
Thank you very much for listening.
Please take a moment to review and rate
on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you may
be enjoying the show on and feel free
to send your questions and comments to questions
at sa air dot com. Or at sa
on Instagram, twitter and Facebook.
We'll be back with more Sa air in
just a couple of weeks time
until then,
camp.
Bye.
This episode has been made possible with a
generous support of the Japan Sake
Maker's Association. Sa was created by Pots k
productions and is produced by export Japan. Our
team is just in Pots.
Cindy bliss,
Sebastian 1, John Ga, Chris hughes, Rebecca Wilson
Lai, Marine Na, Christopher Pell,
Arlene Lyon and Frank Walter.