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Raise your hand. If you're ready
for 30 minutes filled with success,

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stories and hope today, I talked to Dr.

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Liz Hillard with the Wildlands network
about the pigeon river Gorge I 40

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corridor.

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You'll learn how groups like Wildlands
are teaming up with state and federal

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departments of transportation to
redesign bridges and other barriers to

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accommodate wildlife based on extensive
data collected on wildlife movements and

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impediments over the years.

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So stay tuned relief from today's
depressing headlines is on the way

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you're listening to the
rewilding earth podcast.

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The rewilding earth podcast is supported
by businesses such as Patagonia,

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Catula, and bio habitats,

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as well as the Whedon foundation
and listeners like you.

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If you love the work that the
rewilding Institute is doing,

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please consider donating@rewilding.org
and be sure to sign up for our weekly

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newsletter while you're there. Dr.

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Liz Hillard is a senior wildlife biologist
for Wildlands network and help lead

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and manage the study design implementation
analysis and report writing for Rhode

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ecology research focused on the
important pigeon river Gorge,

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interstate 40 corridor near great
smokey mountain national park in

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North Carolina and Tennessee.

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She also works to build partnerships and
engage the public in wildlife habitat

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con activity and conservation efforts
throughout the Southern and central

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Appalachian region.

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Liz currently serves on the board and
as the secretary for North Carolina

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chapter of the wildlife society.

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We all know, and we've been
hearing cuz it is out in the news.

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Now that detrimental effects of roads
on wildlife. And while, you know,

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tens of millions of birds, reptiles,

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amphibians and mammals are killed per
year on roads in the United States,

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this wildlife mortality from
roads or what we call roadkill is

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just one part of, of the issue. So
roads cause habitat fragmentation,

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and can hinder the movement
behavior of wildlife,

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such as dispersal and migration
and more generally disrupt wildlife

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movement and access to
resources such as food inmates.

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So disrupting key ecological processes
that are important for survival.

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And so now we have all of this
information and for the last 20, 30 years,

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folks have really been working
on solutions and those solutions,

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as far as the impacts of roads,

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go have been creating wildlife
over and underpass structures

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in the last five to 10 years.

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So many of these projects we
see mostly happening out west,

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starting to happen here in the east,
but examples of, of true successes,

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not only funneling animals to
potential crossings with fencing,

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but excluding the
wildlife from the roadway.

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And so this is important, you know,

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to reduce wildlife vehicle mortality,

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but also there's human safety issue
involved here with our larger mammals.

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So we see the dots and
wildlife agencies and

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groups like ours. Non-for-profit
organizations that do
research and science,

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you know, all coming together
to try to reduce, uh,

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vehicle collisions for wildlife,

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but also increase human safety on the
roadways as we're understanding this

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issue. And so, for example,
in Wyoming, around 2015,

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we hear about them putting in six
wildlife underpasses in two wildlife

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overpasses in a critical migration area.

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And that increased wildlife connectivity,

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reducing prong hoard vehicle collisions
by a hundred percent and mule deer

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vehicle collisions by 78%.

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So we're just seeing by collecting the
information before and after we're seeing

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these being implemented and, and big
successes. One of my favorites, uh,

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examples is just in the last
couple years on interstate 64 in

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Virginia researchers found
that incorporating, uh,

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a mile of eight foot fencing at two
road structures that are already there,

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a box culvert and a river bridge,

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not specific for wildlife by fencing
and funneling animals to those and

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fencing them off the roadway.

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It reduced Whitetail deer
collisions by 96% and

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88% at these two structures. Wow. And so,

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so we're just seeing these big
numbers and through time, you know,

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just a lot of positives that putting
these structures on the landscape in the

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correct places are really successful
for, for the connectivity aspect.

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So it's an exciting time and, you know,

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folks are seeing these projects out there.

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And so there's a lot of
support and interest.

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Is that why maybe,

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or one of the reasons why we're seeing
more and more of these projects because

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that data on white two deer
collisions is a very just plain

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human safety issue. It just seems
like highway departments and states,

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uh, and federal money would flow
towards statistics like that.

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Um, without having to get into the
weeds about all the great benefits, uh,

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you don't have to sell 'em
on all of the other things,

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if that one economic and human
safety issue is a driving

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factor behind money for these
projects, or am I reading that right?

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No, I, it, it is us knowing more and,

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and what it comes down to too
is the economic cost of these

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vehicle collisions. There's been
numbers crunched on how much it costs,

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you know, statewide
looking at insurance costs,

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injuries to human life. And, and
that's a huge figure as well.

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So I think it's an intersection of, yeah,

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a lot of times the policy or the
funding that goes into these is,

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is maybe less focused on the, the
connectivity, ecological aspect,

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but really on the human safety
portion and economic cost.

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And so we're taking this
opportunity to, to reconnect while,

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while these there's kind of
some synergy out there for,

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for multiple partnerships.

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Well,

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that's about all of the administrative
talk that my audience would tolerate

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<laugh> so, uh,

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we'll have to move on to the really
fun stuff like connectivity stories.

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What kinds of things have you seen
that really give you hope? Uh,

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once things are in place and
wildlife start using these crossings.

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I'm excited when these projects,

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we see that they're planned
for a specific wildlife,

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usually a large charismatic species
important. Usually for migration,

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they have these large home ranges,
so they need a lot of resources.

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Habitat connectivity is important,

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but what I really like to see is when
these go in and they actually help some of

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these smaller species where
the roadways are true barriers.

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And so we see a connectivity
of diverse, uh, diversity from,

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you know, our smaller, lesser knowns,

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but true connectivity and ability
for populations on both sides

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of, of major roadways to interact,
disperse, their genetics,

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you know, really restore from being
fragmented to isolated population.

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So I like seeing the diversity of wildlife
using these structures when they've

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just been pinpointed for maybe
a Whitetail deer mule deer.

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Yeah. The camera stuff is fascinating.
I'm sure many of our listeners have,

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uh, <laugh> tuned into,
uh, a lot of those, uh,

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wildlife cams. And it really is exciting.
And I, you can feel the excitement,

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um, from people who are studying
certain species or, you know,

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just general wildlife movements,
um, in recently reconnected areas,

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not just, just over underpasses,
but just connectivity in general.

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And the delight in their, in their
voices is it's palpable. It's like, wow,

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look at that. Nobody would've expected.

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I think it was a wildlife crossing
where we discovered the coyote

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and the Badger working together. Are you
familiar with that? I'm sure you are.

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Yes. Yes. The safe
passages folks. Yes. What,

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what a gem and we've had
some of those two, um,

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I didn't wanna jump the gun with
the pigeon river Gorge project,

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but I think my favorite
crossing we saw there was,

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um, an elevated metal culvert,
right? We're in a steep Gorge,

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mountainous terrain. And a lot of times
the flow water under the interstate,

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it's a large metal pipe. And you know,

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sometimes these are bed on the
ground where animals to get in them.

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But this part of the culvert that
we're focused on with a camera,

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we have both the entrance and exit. Uh,

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we see a female Bobcat jump into the,

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the culvert and she, you see her flag,

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her tail as a,

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and she is flagging her tail
for her young kitten to come up

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and her young kitten scrambles up
there and they pass safely under the

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interstate using a metal covert to
move water. It's, it's exciting.

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And I mean to add anecdotally
a project that, uh,

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I got to work on this summer,
and we're just in the process of,

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of trying to finish up the project. We
have a couple more months of monitoring.

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I have been so excited because we got
an opportunity in gorgeous state park

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here in North Carolina.

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They put a couple small culverts under
a road that they were building for a

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visitor center and they were built
for timber rattlesnakes in the area.

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Uh, important research in the area.

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Connectivity is important for
basking sites to NA dens. And,

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and this is just a hotspot for
those animals. And they just,

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about 15 years ago, put in three,

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I would say two by two foot concrete
culverts under a, a not very used roadway.

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And I got the opportunity to monitor
tho those this summer and warn my

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summer technician that I thought this
could be really boring <laugh> as we're

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just doing TimeLapse
photos and motion imagery,

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but we detected almost 20
different species of wildlife

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using these from Bobcats
and red Fox and gray Fox to,

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uh, wood rats and bats
and, uh, and snakes,

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uh, a diversity of
snakes. So in, in general,

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and those have been out there for a while,

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just seem really successful creating
these paths of re least resistance, uh,

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that provide some cover for
wildlife to cross these roadways,

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no matter how big or small.

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So the pigeon river Gorge project,
let's, let's talk about that.

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Give us an overview of
what that is. I mean,

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this isn't just a wildlife crossing.
It's a bunch of things. I mean,

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and culverts that even bats use. That's
crazy. I had never heard that before.

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<Laugh> yeah, I think they might have
been feeding in there on all of the,

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the insects in there. But, um,
so I think that some of the bat,

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the bat use of that structure,

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but an important thing to mention
when we talk about wildlife over and

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underpasses being placed on the
landscape is road ecology research.

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So understanding wildlife
along the roadway,

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their patterns and processes,
that's Rhode ecology research,

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and it is necessary to identify, you know,

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the placement of these wildlife structures
along a given stretch of highway.

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And so that's really the introduction
to the pigeon river Gorge project,

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multiple agencies.

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And non-for-profits came together and
started talking in 2017 and 2018 about how

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this section of interstate 40,

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that kind of runs along great
smokey mountain national park.

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And then we have important national
forest lands to the Northeast.

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We're having a lot of bear
mortality in the area and our group

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Wildlands network with national
parks con conservation association,

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the national park service and
the North Carolina wildlife

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resource commission all got
together and started discussing,

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got funding and decided we wanna
really focus some research to

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identify where these wildlife activity,

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hot spots and mortality
spots are along this roadway.

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So we could identify how to mitigate
the effects of this road and

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put in solutions for increasing
connectivity. And also again,

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that human safety issue.
And for this project,

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we focused on black bear, white
tail deer and elk specifically.

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So is there any way to describe the scope
either with the project you're working

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on now or, uh, with other things
that you've studied at other areas,

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just how much wildlife we're
talking about, you know,

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this area of concern is of
concern for a reason. And,

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and I imagine one of the main triggers
was just all the mortality on the,

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on the roadways.

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Just these things become apparent
from D O T statistics <laugh> in

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some, uh, ways, right. And yes,

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but like when you're talking about
a complex of solutions, you know,

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uh, that will show up for all of this,

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what kind of size and scope are we
talking about in terms of just wildlife

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numbers that are going to,
uh, be protected and saved?

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I, I think overall it's just hard
to come up with a number here,

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cuz that same point wildlife
are being killed on the roadway,

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but how is it really influencing the,

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the populations that have been
fragmented or isolated on a whole so

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specific numbers? I don't have
those, but I can say, you know,

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we have this whole 28 mile span of,

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of roadway that we wanna focus on
and we've got great smokey mountains,

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national park, you know,

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on one side in one of the most
ecologically diverse places in

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00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,720
north America in the world.
And we have just as important,

228
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,480
large federal protected lands
on the other side of this road.

229
00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:52,560
So the long term effects I think are
just greater than the, the numbers,

230
00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:57,280
but in the time and this, this is why I
don't have great numbers for you either.

231
00:14:57,590 --> 00:15:00,920
It's hard to get at how many animals
are actually being killed along the

232
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,640
roadway. One, they move,
they don't stay there.

233
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:08,440
And then the only information we tend
to get as researchers are collision

234
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,440
records from state troopers,
from law enforcement,

235
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,440
sometimes maintenance records from the
D O T if they're moving carcasses in our

236
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,200
project, we did driving
surveys just once a week.

237
00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:22,320
And so we're probably
missing a lot of things,

238
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,120
but in the three years that
we did driving surveys,

239
00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:30,600
it was almost a hundred bears
killed in that, in that time period.

240
00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:31,690
Wow.

241
00:15:31,690 --> 00:15:35,560
So it's hard to tell and things fluctuate
and we have high bear mortality years,

242
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,160
you know, they're very tied to the
acorn mast here. Um, so if we, and,

243
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,840
and that's of course on a cycle,
right, when those are produced.

244
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:44,240
And so we do know,

245
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,760
and we see more mortality in the Gorge
when we have low acorn years because

246
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,200
they're, and this just signifies
them moving to find resources,

247
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,200
cuz they're scarce here. When
they're moving to find resources,

248
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,600
they're gonna interact
with more roads and,

249
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,360
and we're gonna see more bear mortality.

250
00:16:01,890 --> 00:16:06,400
To get really precise, uh, in podcasts
world, the words giant enormous,

251
00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:10,560
and holy cow are also acceptable members.

252
00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:13,080
And statistics. Oh, I appreciate that.

253
00:16:13,190 --> 00:16:17,320
That's what I, I was getting, I really
start to get the sense that, um,

254
00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:22,720
there's a lot more movement than people
might think. And for all these reasons,

255
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,440
the acorn thing is really interesting.
Just one example, uh, yeah,

256
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,520
they have to move around
when there's a fire,

257
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,080
I imagine on one side or the
other of a major thoroughfare,

258
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,880
there's also another reason that
you're gonna see a lot of movement.

259
00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:36,560
What are some others that,

260
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,480
that just to give people an idea of
like all the different reasons, uh,

261
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,560
wildlife does something it does
not want to do yeah. On a loud,

262
00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:50,080
busy highway or underneath, or,
you know, just experiencing that.

263
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,920
I'm sure it's much more pleasant staying
far away from that stuff for most

264
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,073
wildlife.

265
00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:56,880
I, I would imagine, you know, I,

266
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,320
I often put myself in that
situation of thinking, you know,

267
00:17:00,830 --> 00:17:03,120
animal behavior for wildlife
biologist, you know,

268
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,240
animal behavior is so difficult
to dissect and understand.

269
00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:10,960
It also tends to be very individualized
from even animals within a species.

270
00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:13,080
But I worked along,

271
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,160
I've done a lot of wildlife work and I
worked along this roadside. You know,

272
00:17:17,170 --> 00:17:21,360
we have wildlife cameras up
doing the surveys along the road

273
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:26,680
and the amount of noise
generated from the roadway,

274
00:17:27,730 --> 00:17:31,320
uh, just got my nervous
system going the whole time.

275
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,920
I couldn't figure out why I was so nervous
out there trying to concentrate to do

276
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,920
things. And I just really
imagine like these wildlife,

277
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,600
I've gotta think this is just one long
giant monster with the amount of no

278
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,560
noise. It generates. And what's
difficult too out there is, you know,

279
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,800
the roadway runs between
Knoxville and Asheville, you know,

280
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,240
that piece of roadway and the
increased traffic and semi traffic.

281
00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:57,000
And then they put Jersey
barriers in the middle.

282
00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:59,880
So that traffic doesn't on
either side doesn't run across,

283
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:04,480
but that often is a four to five foot
concrete barrier in the middle of the

284
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,640
roadway. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so
we're talking about a bit of a wall. Um,

285
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,640
and so it, it was really, and
how they to create the road,

286
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,800
blew up the mountain and built the road
in there and what was once a pretty

287
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,440
pristine area. Um,

288
00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:22,960
so the implications are just kind
of huge when we talk about just even

289
00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:27,300
simple connectivity efforts out there, um,

290
00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:32,300
to get wildlife from the Smokeys
and from the forest lands

291
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:33,220
back and forth.

292
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:36,180
I think a lot of people
are familiar with, uh,

293
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:40,460
video footage of bison and
Grizzlies and Cubs, uh,

294
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:42,420
sort of, um,

295
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:47,420
relatively lackadaisically crossing
roads in national parks and maybe have an

296
00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:50,540
idea that it's just that
simple, you know, that they're,

297
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:55,220
that they can adapt and that it's not
as stressful, uh, as it might seem,

298
00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,540
but most people also haven't sat next to
a highway for as long as you have with

299
00:19:00,540 --> 00:19:03,140
no motor running and
not being inside a car,

300
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:06,860
but fully exposed to all that
stuff that noise, that chaos.

301
00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:12,940
Uh, and so I'm glad you brought that
up and described it because, uh, yeah,

302
00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:16,300
most people are just passing through
and they don't understand that there's a

303
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:18,260
big difference for the wildlife.

304
00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:22,020
They really are solving a problem
otherwise they would not be there.

305
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:26,060
Exactly. Like they need to get to that
other side. And, and your question of,

306
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:30,220
of why are, you know, the bear
example with the acorns is great,

307
00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:33,220
but then sometimes I don't
have an example, you know,

308
00:19:34,270 --> 00:19:37,820
in our research we put GPS collars on,

309
00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:40,340
on 13 elk in the smokes and in the area,

310
00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:43,740
kind of the epicenter of elk
activity in great smokey mountain.

311
00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:47,980
National park is in the CATA two
valley, which is straight line distance,

312
00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:50,060
only about six kilometers
to the interstate.

313
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,870
And we put 13 collars on elk and we

314
00:19:55,870 --> 00:19:56,710
tracked their movements.

315
00:19:56,710 --> 00:20:01,510
And while we only had one animal
crossing the roadway in the two years,

316
00:20:01,510 --> 00:20:04,390
we monitored, we had
others that, you know,

317
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:06,790
you see the barrier effect that
they come up to the roadway,

318
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:09,550
they circle around it, they
use the area on one side,

319
00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:13,750
they never cross this one female.
We actually monitored her for,

320
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:18,030
for three years. She crossed
the interstate 107 times.

321
00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:23,830
And every year it was the same
pattern in the early kind of

322
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:27,710
spring time. She'd leave the Catucci
valley where the whole herd is.

323
00:20:28,170 --> 00:20:33,070
And she went and went on her own foray
and she was finding a place to have

324
00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:37,630
her calf, the K Elks go off. And, and
when folks asked them why over there.

325
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,150
So she crossed the interstate at
road grade. So at the road crossing,

326
00:20:41,150 --> 00:20:42,230
she had to navigate that,

327
00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:46,910
but she also used a bridge
to move vehicles under,

328
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,680
under the interstate, which is also
where the Appalachian trail crosses.

329
00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:56,040
Um, it's it's right at the
North Carolina Tennessee border.

330
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:57,920
And it's where the Appalachian trail is.

331
00:20:58,460 --> 00:21:01,560
And we had some synergy in
tracking her with our GPS colors,

332
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,160
but then we're monitoring these structures
with cameras and you see her come

333
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,200
back and,

334
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,000
and bring her calf back to the valley
using that bridge and also crossing at

335
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,960
road grade. So three years in a row,

336
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,440
this animal left in the spring had
her calf came back in early fall,

337
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,560
bringing her calf with her. And I, I
don't know how she's navigated to do this.

338
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,440
I think in the first year we thought she
should have had a calf and she didn't,

339
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,520
but we were hadn't monitored her yet.
And in the, in the three years we did,

340
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,200
she seemed to successfully do that.

341
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,280
And I don't know why she
wanted to be over there,

342
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,640
but my simple answer is space and,
and we all need and want that. Right.

343
00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:43,560
Yeah. But we were just talking, uh, uh,

344
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,400
off mic <laugh> about that
at the beginning here,

345
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,680
how much we both enjoy space
and people like us do. Um,

346
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,200
one can only imagine when you're
born in that kind of space,

347
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,560
how much you cherish it. And it's the
only thing you pretty much primarily know.

348
00:21:57,980 --> 00:22:02,440
Yes. Some of them seem braver than
others, some species do other, you know,

349
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,000
there are some extraordinarily
sensitive species. What kind of work,

350
00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:12,320
uh, have you been involved
with or studied, um,

351
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,960
where the challenges are
much, much greater to you?

352
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,720
Sometimes can't just build
it and they will come, is,

353
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:21,560
is the case for some species, right.

354
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,520
Right. That is, that is the case.

355
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,840
And I think the focus there
would be more on, um, aquatic,

356
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,680
connectivity, um, something that
gets a lot less, you know, focus.

357
00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:37,800
And if we imagine here in the
mountains or where we are now,

358
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,840
where water is often being needing
to be conducted under roadways,

359
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:47,240
well that also fragments,
uh, hydrologic processes,

360
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,960
but there's often step ups. These
structures, these box culverts,

361
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,080
these metal culverts. They often
don't have a natural bottom.

362
00:22:55,470 --> 00:22:56,840
They create step up.

363
00:22:57,450 --> 00:23:02,220
They don't have structure in them
for fish species or tic species

364
00:23:02,270 --> 00:23:05,260
to be navigating or go
going through there.

365
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,420
And so in some of our
pigeon river Gorge work,

366
00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:13,700
we've started talking to
hydrologists and fish biologists, um,

367
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,740
who readily will tell you, this is a huge,

368
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:21,510
huge issue when you
disconnect watersheds to

369
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:25,550
their main source through,
through creating roadways or,

370
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,270
or other human development.

371
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,270
There's a whole other diverse group of
species in the aquatic realm that get

372
00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:36,350
little attention and, and,
you know, really spatially.

373
00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:39,790
Sometimes these are smaller areas
where there should really be a focus.

374
00:23:40,410 --> 00:23:45,400
And so I, I think that's,
that's a focus of road,

375
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,080
ecology and connectivity. That's, you
know, trying to get the word out there.

376
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,640
There's great projects
being done, but I think to,

377
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,280
to your audience of folks out there, um,
aquatic connectivity is kind of huge.

378
00:23:55,870 --> 00:23:57,600
Yeah. And even here, uh,

379
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,120
you and I have talked about the
charismatic mega critters and, uh,

380
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:03,800
for the most part until now,

381
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,360
and very glad that you brought that up
because that usually does get glossed

382
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,600
over even in our company. Well,

383
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,920
not when we're all just
sitting around a campfire,

384
00:24:11,930 --> 00:24:13,920
we geek out on newts and everything else.

385
00:24:14,010 --> 00:24:14,840
Exactly.

386
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,000
We're unusual. I think in that respect.

387
00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:21,880
Mm-hmm, <affirmative> yeah, us too.
But we, we do latch onto these, uh,

388
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,800
animals where we have, you know,
multiple partnerships and, and,

389
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,400
and support and can kind of drum up
support for, for projects like this and,

390
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,800
and get a real commitment to, to trying
to get mitigation on the ground, to,

391
00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:36,800
to increase wildlife connectivity.

392
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:41,720
What is the big vision? What
do you see in the future? Um,

393
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,280
let's go five or 10
years down the road. Um,

394
00:24:45,310 --> 00:24:48,960
what makes you really happy and hopeful
about the work you're doing today and

395
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,793
where it's leading?

396
00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:53,800
Ah, yeah. Uh, there is a lot of hope. Um,

397
00:24:54,130 --> 00:24:56,200
so we have completed our research study.

398
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:01,080
Now the research itself
got, got pretty large. So,

399
00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:04,960
you know, you heard me
mention, we GPS collared elk.

400
00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:10,320
We also had cameras monitoring along the
road side to look at animal activity.

401
00:25:11,050 --> 00:25:15,400
We monitored these culverts and bridges
that currently exist to see if they're

402
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,920
being used. And we compiled all this
wildlife vehicle collision information,

403
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:24,760
and we really divided the road
into segments and, you know,

404
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,760
essentially ranked them
to understand, you know,

405
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,360
where these high activity areas
are, where animal activities high,

406
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:34,440
all to come up with.

407
00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:38,800
We have 20 recommendations within the
Gorge based on our research findings.

408
00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:43,880
And what that really looks like
is we want a linkage system from

409
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,040
one side to the other,

410
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,880
the interstate multiple
opportunities for wildlife to

411
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,880
cross under the roadway.

412
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:56,800
And so what that looks like is we wanna
retrofit some existing structures.

413
00:25:57,410 --> 00:26:01,440
Um, so culverts that are too small or
where we see a lot of vehicle collisions,

414
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,960
but there's an opportunity
we wanna retrofit those.

415
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,200
Maybe they need to be larger,
less noisy, um, fencing to those.

416
00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:14,120
We also want a few dedicated
wildlife overpasses in the region.

417
00:26:14,350 --> 00:26:18,960
That's, that's kind of the big vision
where we're seeing success and, you know,

418
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,920
important relationships is with our
department of transportation partners.

419
00:26:24,330 --> 00:26:26,160
So early on in this research project,

420
00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:31,000
they reached out and told
us three, five, excuse me,

421
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,720
five of the bridges you're monitoring
in the pigeon river Gorge on the

422
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,280
North Carolina side are
slated to be replaced.

423
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:42,520
So they're gonna be putting
in all new structures and,

424
00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:45,180
uh, at Wildlands network,

425
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:50,100
we saw this as an opportunity and
came up with how would the replacement

426
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:51,820
of these structures that
are already gonna be there.

427
00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:54,340
We imagine they'll be there
for another 60, 80 years.

428
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,460
How could they incorporate
wildlife passage into these

429
00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:03,780
structures? And so I'm really happy to
say that first bridge that was slated for

430
00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:08,260
replacement, that we provided
recommendations, a larger span.

431
00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:12,340
So wildlife can have their own almost
like Greenway area to move through and,

432
00:27:12,790 --> 00:27:14,540
uh, noise reduction,

433
00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:18,620
some fencing to guide to the structures
and exclude from the roadway.

434
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:22,820
Those have all been put in place
in this first bridge replacement,

435
00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:24,820
which is the harm inden bridge.

436
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,900
And so that's just a huge
win on our end. Um, you know,

437
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:33,460
shout out to our North Carolina department
of transportation partners who really

438
00:27:34,090 --> 00:27:38,740
took our recommendations
through a little relationship

439
00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:41,260
building and really thought
we can do this and apply this.

440
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:45,420
We wanna see these benefits as well,
you know, not only for the safety issue,

441
00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:48,460
but, but we're all,
we're all bought in and,

442
00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:52,060
and proud of the wildlife
in our region. So it's,

443
00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:55,300
it's been the community coming
together on that, that level.

444
00:27:55,550 --> 00:27:58,780
So that would be a, a big, the big win.

445
00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:01,060
Now the research report itself,

446
00:28:01,310 --> 00:28:06,180
it would just came out in July and it
really pinpoints with a lot of detail, uh,

447
00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:10,340
the areas and, and how,
and we're proud of that.

448
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:14,540
And that's where we're drumming
up legislative support, um,

449
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,300
and funding. And, you know, so,
so there's this next phase of,

450
00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:24,220
of trying to get these implemented. We,
we have such great research, you know,

451
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,620
due to having great
partnerships and support. Uh,

452
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:31,460
and now we're moving forward in the
phase of let's get some of these

453
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:32,293
implemented.

454
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:36,180
It feels like there's a ground swell
and there has been for a while and it's

455
00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:36,780
been building.

456
00:28:36,780 --> 00:28:41,340
And it sounds like maybe you're
kind of able to capitalize on that,

457
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:44,020
having a receptive D O T. And you know,

458
00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:48,980
when in other areas we are dealing
with wildlife agencies that are not at

459
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:53,700
all at all receptive to working with
us or hearing from us or anything.

460
00:28:54,190 --> 00:28:58,860
Um, it's just refreshing to hear any
department of anything the receptive and,

461
00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:00,780
and want to team up on these things.

462
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:04,380
Do you feel like there's a groundswell
of support nationally for this?

463
00:29:05,170 --> 00:29:07,620
Yeah, I, I, I really do. It's been a fun,

464
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:12,060
it's been a fun part of research
to be involved with. And I mean,

465
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:14,180
myself, you know,

466
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:18,340
getting to do research and taking it
and being able to apply it on the ground

467
00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:22,740
for positive conservation outcomes, but
what we're seeing the success of these,

468
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,060
you know, in the numbers I shared early
on, I think the departments are too,

469
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:29,340
and us being able to fill
kind of a research gap.

470
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:32,980
Folks are happy to provide resources,
but maybe don't have the capacity.

471
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:36,540
So I think being able
to provide, you know,

472
00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:40,660
this information gap through our
research, but I do, I think overall,

473
00:29:40,690 --> 00:29:45,520
I think it goes back to the
real issues here beyond the

474
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,920
mortality, along the roadway. It's, it's
a larger connectivity. And I think if,

475
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:52,520
you know, when wildland started
in the early nineties, uh,

476
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,280
thinking large landscape connectivity,
you know, those were crazy.

477
00:29:56,690 --> 00:29:58,360
It was crazy to think on that scale,

478
00:29:58,620 --> 00:30:01,400
but we see that that's
been fully adopted as well.

479
00:30:01,660 --> 00:30:06,240
And I think that understanding how
important habitat connectivity is,

480
00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:09,320
uh, everyone else is, is, you know,

481
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,000
accepting that and realizing these
roads are such an issue. And,

482
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,720
and that human safety issue, again,
it kind of is this synergistic effect.

483
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,590
And beyond just, it's
seeming that way, you know,

484
00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:25,230
there's 350 million slated
in the transportation bill

485
00:30:25,690 --> 00:30:28,710
for specific wildlife structures.

486
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,790
So there's opportunities now in funding
on this federal level, you know,

487
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:38,470
I think that's, that's what we're seeing
too. Uh, is it more focus on that?

488
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:41,630
Well, yeah, yeah. That, yeah,
I think you're right about,

489
00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:44,950
I think you're right about
the ground swell. Um, so,

490
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,070
so it's definitely happening.
I mean, even in, you know,

491
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:50,630
I'm not on social media too much,
but I'm even seeing it a lot there,

492
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:53,430
or people really seem
to connect with it. Uh,

493
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:58,310
I think the crossings themselves can
be quite visionary, you know, or,

494
00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:01,070
or they really inspire folks to,

495
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,510
to think about a connected
landscape to see,

496
00:31:03,850 --> 00:31:08,590
see a bridge specific for wildlife. And
I think that has a lot of hope in it.

497
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,510
So I, I, I think that's, that's what
the appeal that beyond that they,

498
00:31:12,510 --> 00:31:16,750
they seem to be really effective.
They're kind of two birds with one stone,

499
00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:20,110
you know, there's, there's a
lot going on there. So it's,

500
00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:23,950
it's an exciting time and it was
so exciting to have such, uh,

501
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:27,710
state agencies excited to, to work with
us and, and they've been supportive.

502
00:31:27,710 --> 00:31:29,110
So exciting stuff.

503
00:31:29,270 --> 00:31:33,790
Stretches like the one you're working on
that you did all this research on. Um,

504
00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:38,790
there is a lot of those around the country
that may probably aren't getting the

505
00:31:38,790 --> 00:31:40,590
kind of attention that, you know,

506
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:44,190
this stretch has that still
need a lot of supporters.

507
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,830
So I would encourage everybody listening
to find out about that in your area.

508
00:31:48,850 --> 00:31:53,510
And I would ask, like, to ask you
Liz, uh, for people, you know,

509
00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:56,670
first of all, uh, in
your area, in that area,

510
00:31:56,670 --> 00:31:59,630
is there anything that
people can do that, um,

511
00:31:59,670 --> 00:32:04,630
being geographically at hand
might be helpful in support

512
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:05,590
or projects,

513
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:08,870
or how would they even find out some
pick and shovel things that they could do

514
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:11,750
in the future? When anything
as simple as a culvert needs,

515
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:15,190
some support or help
from volunteers or, uh,

516
00:32:15,510 --> 00:32:19,230
anything digital or anything political
that people can do to help and support

517
00:32:19,230 --> 00:32:20,063
this work?

518
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:21,390
Yeah,

519
00:32:21,390 --> 00:32:26,390
I think first and foremost for the
project I've talked about is so

520
00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:30,510
we have a website, um,
smokey, safe passage.org,

521
00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:33,750
and here you can, you can get the latest.

522
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,270
So where we're gonna need a lot of
folks help is, is sending letters,

523
00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:40,680
contacting their legislative, uh,

524
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:44,800
branches and offices to support
work like this. But also, you know,

525
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,480
in the future,

526
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,080
I imagine there are gonna be apps
and services that help others

527
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,680
identify or mark where they're seeing
roadkill. Um, it's hard for me in,

528
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,040
in this space to, I'd love for everyone
to get out and especially with the,

529
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,320
the turtles and the, um,

530
00:33:01,830 --> 00:33:05,720
amphibians and reptiles crossing the
roadway to drive slowly and move things.

531
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040
But that's, that's also
a danger to, to humans,

532
00:33:08,140 --> 00:33:12,440
but I think legislative
support sharing, you know,

533
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,920
that beyond the road kill the, the
effects of these roads on wildlife.

534
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:22,520
Um, and, and those would be the general
things. I think, um, we do have a,

535
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,760
a donation and support button
for the smokey safe passage,

536
00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:31,000
pigeon river Gorge project on this
website, uh, with some other, you know,

537
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,480
anecdotes on how you can help. Um,

538
00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:37,600
but I think just having people
like recognize the issue,

539
00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:43,080
paying attention, and, and if you're
seeing areas of high concentration,

540
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,000
wildlife, and your backyard on
your roads, you know, get a,

541
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:51,840
get ahold of someone regionally or
locally, or the wildlife agency, you know,

542
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,520
we, we know these places exist and
it's important to know too where the,

543
00:33:55,620 --> 00:34:00,520
the gaps in connectivity might be
our protected areas in your region,

544
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,880
too, just map wise and
understanding, you know,

545
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,240
if you're in a large public area and
where we know there's a lot of wildlife

546
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:12,000
diversity because of the habitat
resources and major roads are,

547
00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:16,240
are impacting those wildlife. I think,
you know, just trying to raise the lead,

548
00:34:16,610 --> 00:34:21,480
uh, red flag on, on the, the levels
that you're comfortable with.

549
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,360
Um, I think just knowing the real issue.

550
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,880
Thank you so much for taking the
time to be with us today because, uh,

551
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,360
I've been wanting to talk
about this for a long time.

552
00:34:30,420 --> 00:34:34,400
And I feel like we got people caught
up in a way that they're not getting in

553
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,960
the, you know, generic news. And, uh,

554
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,160
you've been a great service to all of
our listeners today. And thank you so,

555
00:34:41,210 --> 00:34:45,920
so much for all the work that you do
and that you plan to continue to do, uh,

556
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,840
for the wild and for connectivity.

557
00:34:48,270 --> 00:34:52,280
Thanks so much, Jack. I, I appreciate
the opportunity. I hope everyone, uh,

558
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,160
enjoys this podcast.

559
00:34:55,910 --> 00:34:56,520
Thanks.

560
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,320
For listening to the rewilding earth
podcast. We do what we do because of you.

561
00:35:01,470 --> 00:35:03,880
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562
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,760
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563
00:35:06,110 --> 00:35:10,800
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564
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,240
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565
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,920
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566
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,760
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567
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,520
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568
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,480
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that's rewilding.org/p O

569
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:27,680
D.