1 00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:05,779 Ecological restoration 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,139 is human led nature enabled. 3 00:00:09,599 --> 00:00:11,460 So in other words, it's us 4 00:00:11,919 --> 00:00:12,419 using 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:14,259 nature based approaches 6 00:00:15,005 --> 00:00:16,304 to achieve a particular 7 00:00:17,164 --> 00:00:19,804 outcome. And whether that if that's restoration of 8 00:00:19,804 --> 00:00:22,464 coral reef or it's river restoration or whatever, 9 00:00:22,844 --> 00:00:23,585 we're using 10 00:00:23,964 --> 00:00:26,864 nature based solutions to achieve a particular 11 00:00:27,529 --> 00:00:28,589 desired outcome. 12 00:00:29,210 --> 00:00:31,050 Rewilding flips that on its head, and we 13 00:00:31,050 --> 00:00:32,030 say that rewilding 14 00:00:32,809 --> 00:00:33,309 is 15 00:00:33,850 --> 00:00:37,390 nature led, human enabled. So it's nature 16 00:00:38,170 --> 00:00:38,670 determining 17 00:00:39,384 --> 00:00:42,984 its own ecological trajectory, and it's us having 18 00:00:42,984 --> 00:00:45,704 the humility and the far sight to actually 19 00:00:45,704 --> 00:00:48,344 give it the space and indeed the time 20 00:00:48,344 --> 00:00:49,884 to allow it to do that. 21 00:00:50,265 --> 00:00:52,045 So it doesn't we don't have a set 22 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:55,219 outcome from rewilding. It's an open ended process 23 00:00:55,219 --> 00:00:56,039 in that respect. 24 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,420 You're listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. 25 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:32,420 I'm your host, Jack Humphrey. 26 00:01:33,545 --> 00:01:35,944 What does rewilding mean on a global scale, 27 00:01:35,944 --> 00:01:38,424 and how do we implement rewilding projects across 28 00:01:38,424 --> 00:01:41,064 a wide variety of different geographic, cultural, and 29 00:01:41,064 --> 00:01:42,125 political constraints? 30 00:01:42,905 --> 00:01:45,304 To guide us through this intricate landscape is 31 00:01:45,304 --> 00:01:47,944 doctor Steve Carver, a professor from the University 32 00:01:47,944 --> 00:01:50,109 of Leeds School of Geography and the co 33 00:01:50,109 --> 00:01:51,090 chair of IUCN's 34 00:01:51,469 --> 00:01:53,010 Rewilding Thematic Group. 35 00:01:53,390 --> 00:01:55,310 For nearly a decade, Steve and his colleagues 36 00:01:55,310 --> 00:01:56,909 have led a global effort on behalf of 37 00:01:56,909 --> 00:01:57,650 the IUCN 38 00:01:58,430 --> 00:02:00,689 to define what rewilding actually is. 39 00:02:01,365 --> 00:02:04,084 The result is a landmark paper, Guiding Principles 40 00:02:04,084 --> 00:02:07,045 for Rewilding in Conservation Biology, and the New 41 00:02:07,045 --> 00:02:08,905 Comprehensive IUCN Guidelines. 42 00:02:09,764 --> 00:02:12,104 It's a discussion about scale, connectivity, 43 00:02:12,485 --> 00:02:12,985 coexistence, 44 00:02:13,284 --> 00:02:16,439 and the ultimate hopeful future of wildness. We 45 00:02:16,439 --> 00:02:18,599 begin with Steve giving us some background to 46 00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:20,620 lay the foundation for today's conversation. 47 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:24,919 We produced a paper back in 2021, 48 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,259 which, has got quite a lot of traction. 49 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:29,500 It was called guiding principles for rewilding 50 00:02:30,055 --> 00:02:32,375 and conservation biology. And there's some big names 51 00:02:32,375 --> 00:02:35,094 on that paper, not just in Europe, North 52 00:02:35,094 --> 00:02:36,155 America, but elsewhere. 53 00:02:36,855 --> 00:02:40,215 Yeah. That set out 10 guiding principles for 54 00:02:40,215 --> 00:02:41,754 rewilding and a definition. 55 00:02:42,135 --> 00:02:43,895 And it came off the back of a 56 00:02:43,895 --> 00:02:44,955 request from 57 00:02:45,669 --> 00:02:46,409 the IUCN, 58 00:02:46,789 --> 00:02:49,349 the International Union for the Conservation of Nature. 59 00:02:49,349 --> 00:02:50,949 And, you know, that's made up of a 60 00:02:50,949 --> 00:02:52,789 series of pillars, and it was the Commission 61 00:02:52,789 --> 00:02:55,189 for Ecosystem Management that asked us to set 62 00:02:55,189 --> 00:02:57,209 up a rewilding task was 63 00:02:57,669 --> 00:02:59,129 to really kind of 64 00:02:59,504 --> 00:03:00,724 bottom out what 65 00:03:01,104 --> 00:03:01,604 rewilding 66 00:03:02,064 --> 00:03:04,544 is about, you know, come up with a 67 00:03:04,784 --> 00:03:07,125 an attempt, anyway, at least, a a unifying 68 00:03:07,264 --> 00:03:07,764 definition 69 00:03:08,544 --> 00:03:10,004 and a set of guiding principles. 70 00:03:10,465 --> 00:03:12,084 And so that's what we did. 71 00:03:12,465 --> 00:03:14,004 You know, that was based around 72 00:03:14,629 --> 00:03:15,069 a, 73 00:03:15,509 --> 00:03:16,250 a survey 74 00:03:16,709 --> 00:03:17,209 of, 75 00:03:17,909 --> 00:03:20,090 you know, some of the leading names, thinkers 76 00:03:20,709 --> 00:03:21,530 on rewilding 77 00:03:21,989 --> 00:03:23,289 and, you know, pioneers, 78 00:03:23,750 --> 00:03:24,810 a survey of 79 00:03:25,189 --> 00:03:27,830 the principles that had been already written down 80 00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:29,129 by a bunch of organizations 81 00:03:29,509 --> 00:03:30,694 that were doing rewilding, 82 00:03:31,875 --> 00:03:33,875 and then a whole series of workshops. And 83 00:03:33,875 --> 00:03:35,715 I think we've reached out to well over 84 00:03:35,715 --> 00:03:36,694 a 100 people 85 00:03:37,155 --> 00:03:38,375 and, organizations 86 00:03:38,834 --> 00:03:40,995 in coming up with the definition and the 87 00:03:40,995 --> 00:03:41,495 principles. 88 00:03:42,209 --> 00:03:44,550 And that's kinda rolled over into the document 89 00:03:44,689 --> 00:03:47,009 that was published last month at the, 90 00:03:47,889 --> 00:03:50,229 World Conservation Congress in Abu Dhabi, 91 00:03:50,530 --> 00:03:51,409 which is this, 92 00:03:51,810 --> 00:03:54,870 you know, guidelines for rewilding document. 93 00:03:55,474 --> 00:03:57,074 So, yeah, it's been a long time coming. 94 00:03:57,074 --> 00:03:58,935 It's kind of eight years in the making. 95 00:03:59,155 --> 00:04:01,014 We're now a a rewilding 96 00:04:01,314 --> 00:04:03,495 thematic group, so we're now permanent. 97 00:04:04,435 --> 00:04:06,435 And is it just, you know, before we 98 00:04:06,514 --> 00:04:08,115 we we lose sight of the fact, you 99 00:04:08,115 --> 00:04:09,870 know, I'm I'm here with you today, which 100 00:04:09,870 --> 00:04:11,709 is great, but there's a whole bunch of 101 00:04:11,709 --> 00:04:14,189 other people behind this. You know, my colleagues 102 00:04:14,189 --> 00:04:15,090 in the core 103 00:04:15,389 --> 00:04:17,790 group of the rewilding thematic group, but all 104 00:04:17,790 --> 00:04:19,169 of the people have contributed. 105 00:04:19,709 --> 00:04:21,389 You know, I'm just I'm just a I'm 106 00:04:21,389 --> 00:04:23,629 just a secretary in many senses of the 107 00:04:23,629 --> 00:04:25,275 word, and I get my name on the 108 00:04:25,275 --> 00:04:26,175 paper first. 109 00:04:27,995 --> 00:04:30,154 You're too humble. And and the first question 110 00:04:30,154 --> 00:04:32,175 that I really have from that is, 111 00:04:33,835 --> 00:04:36,415 how would you characterize the need for 112 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:39,810 guidelines? Was it that chaotic before we started 113 00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:41,029 to organize ourselves 114 00:04:41,410 --> 00:04:41,910 internationally 115 00:04:42,370 --> 00:04:42,870 around 116 00:04:43,569 --> 00:04:45,810 rewilding? Because in North America, we thought we 117 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:47,410 had it pretty well defined, but it was 118 00:04:47,410 --> 00:04:49,649 a very North American rewilding at the same 119 00:04:49,649 --> 00:04:50,149 time. 120 00:04:50,625 --> 00:04:53,205 Bringing up differences between different countries is 121 00:04:53,824 --> 00:04:55,985 gets confusing. Yeah. I think I mean, I 122 00:04:56,625 --> 00:04:58,145 to be honest, I think you you probably 123 00:04:58,145 --> 00:05:00,884 did nail down the ecological principles pretty well. 124 00:05:01,264 --> 00:05:03,125 But I think what we need to recognize 125 00:05:03,264 --> 00:05:03,925 is that, 126 00:05:04,410 --> 00:05:06,330 you know, rewilding is very much a place 127 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:07,550 based in a participatory 128 00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:09,310 outlook on, 129 00:05:09,769 --> 00:05:11,790 you know, approaches to conservation. 130 00:05:12,410 --> 00:05:12,889 And, 131 00:05:13,449 --> 00:05:14,990 you know, and I think 132 00:05:15,449 --> 00:05:17,610 that's what changes as you move it around 133 00:05:17,610 --> 00:05:20,095 the world. You know, we've written, you know, 134 00:05:20,095 --> 00:05:21,074 papers about 135 00:05:21,375 --> 00:05:24,014 comparing and contrasting North America with Europe, for 136 00:05:24,014 --> 00:05:25,615 example. I mean, I'm you know, sat in 137 00:05:25,615 --> 00:05:26,514 Yorkshire, England. 138 00:05:27,214 --> 00:05:28,975 And, you know, it's a very different thing. 139 00:05:28,975 --> 00:05:30,834 Yes. The ecological principles 140 00:05:31,615 --> 00:05:33,180 are, you know, uniform. 141 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,980 You know, it's they apply wherever you are. 142 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,680 However, it's how you then apply those where 143 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:39,740 you've got to be 144 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,519 cognizant cognizant of the fact that, you know, 145 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:45,419 different cultures, you know, different legal systems, 146 00:05:46,014 --> 00:05:48,014 all of that will mean, you know, big 147 00:05:48,014 --> 00:05:50,975 differences in how it's actually implemented and applied. 148 00:05:50,975 --> 00:05:52,814 It's it was a tough task, I would 149 00:05:52,814 --> 00:05:54,995 imagine. It it it's tricky. Yeah. I mean, 150 00:05:55,134 --> 00:05:57,555 inevitably, we've we've had to generalize. 151 00:05:58,079 --> 00:05:59,360 But, you know, going back to what your 152 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:00,720 comment about, you know, it was a bit 153 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,220 chaotic, 154 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:02,819 in terms of having 155 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:06,000 rewilding as a as a concept and as 156 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,379 approach was then being 157 00:06:07,759 --> 00:06:08,259 applied 158 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:11,439 in different situations globally. You know, a lot 159 00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:13,360 of people say, well well, what is he? 160 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:14,019 You know? 161 00:06:14,774 --> 00:06:17,095 And, you know, Dolly Jorgensen wrote a, you 162 00:06:17,095 --> 00:06:19,334 know, a quite an influential paper back in 163 00:06:19,334 --> 00:06:20,214 2015 164 00:06:20,214 --> 00:06:22,854 and, you know, called rewilding a plastic term. 165 00:06:22,854 --> 00:06:25,014 You know? It it became molded to whatever 166 00:06:25,014 --> 00:06:26,555 people wanted it to be. 167 00:06:26,870 --> 00:06:28,389 You know? Yeah. Okay. We've got this kind 168 00:06:28,389 --> 00:06:30,089 of general idea that the ecological, 169 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:31,910 you know, giving giving, 170 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:34,629 well, as we call it, you know, giving 171 00:06:34,629 --> 00:06:36,550 nature the space and the time to determine 172 00:06:36,550 --> 00:06:39,425 its own ecological trajectory, you know? That that 173 00:06:39,425 --> 00:06:42,625 comes with some baggage depending on on where 174 00:06:42,625 --> 00:06:44,464 you are in the world. You know, we 175 00:06:44,464 --> 00:06:45,685 say it's got to be 176 00:06:46,384 --> 00:06:48,485 it's got to be context specific. 177 00:06:48,944 --> 00:06:50,865 What would you say is the single most 178 00:06:50,865 --> 00:06:52,644 important principle that policymakers 179 00:06:53,185 --> 00:06:55,189 and the public, wherever they are in the 180 00:06:55,189 --> 00:06:57,290 world, need to understand from this work? 181 00:06:58,149 --> 00:06:59,829 Well, as I I think it's you know, 182 00:06:59,829 --> 00:07:02,229 the fact that, you know, rewilding is is, 183 00:07:02,389 --> 00:07:04,709 is nature led. You know, it's about functional 184 00:07:04,709 --> 00:07:06,009 ecological restoration, 185 00:07:06,485 --> 00:07:07,305 and it's about scale 186 00:07:07,845 --> 00:07:10,245 as well. You know, we aspire when we're 187 00:07:10,245 --> 00:07:11,944 looking at rewilding for 188 00:07:12,324 --> 00:07:14,425 to think about large scale restoration 189 00:07:14,725 --> 00:07:16,504 through landscape scale planning. 190 00:07:17,125 --> 00:07:19,365 And that, you know, then brings in some 191 00:07:19,365 --> 00:07:22,050 of these political issues about land ownership and 192 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:22,710 land management 193 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:23,910 and collaboration 194 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:26,850 across, you know, large areas. And a lot 195 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:28,770 of people, you know, particularly in Europe and 196 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:30,770 particularly in The UK, are are doing very 197 00:07:30,770 --> 00:07:32,069 small scale stuff. 198 00:07:32,689 --> 00:07:34,310 And I think it's just that realization 199 00:07:34,770 --> 00:07:36,975 that, you know, what we're talking about here 200 00:07:36,975 --> 00:07:38,354 is is large scale, 201 00:07:38,975 --> 00:07:40,995 you know, giving space back to nature. 202 00:07:41,615 --> 00:07:43,454 And, you know, if if if you forget 203 00:07:43,454 --> 00:07:45,854 that, then you're somehow missing the point with 204 00:07:45,854 --> 00:07:46,354 rewilding. 205 00:07:46,735 --> 00:07:48,495 You deal a lot in space. You do 206 00:07:48,495 --> 00:07:50,899 a lot of mapping work, and that's what 207 00:07:50,899 --> 00:07:51,479 you were 208 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:53,939 well known for before you took on this 209 00:07:53,939 --> 00:07:55,159 project, and 210 00:07:55,539 --> 00:07:57,539 that's an issue. When you start mixing in 211 00:07:57,539 --> 00:07:59,959 the politics, land ownership, and everything else, 212 00:08:00,419 --> 00:08:02,819 when when you hear people talk about 30 213 00:08:02,819 --> 00:08:03,479 by thirty 214 00:08:04,254 --> 00:08:05,555 and fifty by 50 215 00:08:05,935 --> 00:08:08,975 and these very, very lofty goals, considering also 216 00:08:08,975 --> 00:08:11,714 the global political climate seems to be tending 217 00:08:11,774 --> 00:08:13,774 away from what we would like it to 218 00:08:13,774 --> 00:08:15,555 do Uh-huh. To hit those goals, 219 00:08:16,095 --> 00:08:18,495 that combined with the space and everything else, 220 00:08:18,495 --> 00:08:21,819 I mean, that's the GIS thing. Right? Yeah. 221 00:08:21,819 --> 00:08:23,520 That's right. Yeah. I've been 222 00:08:23,980 --> 00:08:27,040 doing chewing away at the the problem of 223 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:28,639 identifying and defining 224 00:08:29,020 --> 00:08:30,240 and and modeling 225 00:08:30,620 --> 00:08:34,000 wilderness quality, wilderness character for many years now. 226 00:08:34,375 --> 00:08:36,774 And it just seemed a natural progression to 227 00:08:36,774 --> 00:08:39,915 to move into looking at opportunities for rewilding 228 00:08:40,615 --> 00:08:42,215 in terms of you you know, you're right. 229 00:08:42,215 --> 00:08:45,415 You know, the the UN's Global Biodiversity Forum, 230 00:08:45,415 --> 00:08:48,600 Kumen Montreal Agreement has this, you know, these 231 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,340 30% targets, the 30 by 30 vision. 232 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,399 You know, one that I think it's target, 233 00:08:53,799 --> 00:08:55,980 target two says we got to 234 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,920 restore. And if you call you know, wanna 235 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,195 call that rewilding, but restore 30% of degraded 236 00:09:02,495 --> 00:09:03,875 land, sea, and water, 237 00:09:04,735 --> 00:09:07,215 across the planet. And then there's target three, 238 00:09:07,215 --> 00:09:08,434 which says, you know, protect 239 00:09:08,815 --> 00:09:11,294 30% of land, sea, and water for hard 240 00:09:11,294 --> 00:09:11,794 biodiversity 241 00:09:12,095 --> 00:09:12,595 nature. 242 00:09:13,190 --> 00:09:15,269 And that's you know, those are great targets. 243 00:09:15,269 --> 00:09:17,589 They're not quite the 50% of how, nature 244 00:09:17,589 --> 00:09:20,149 needs half or half earth projects, but, you 245 00:09:20,149 --> 00:09:22,389 know, they're good starting points. And and these 246 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:24,329 the target for this is 2030. 247 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:26,389 So that's, you know, that's less than five 248 00:09:26,389 --> 00:09:27,209 years away. 249 00:09:28,495 --> 00:09:28,995 And, 250 00:09:29,774 --> 00:09:31,534 yeah, it's tricky to see how we might 251 00:09:31,534 --> 00:09:33,534 meet reach those. But as a geographer, the 252 00:09:33,534 --> 00:09:35,455 question I always have is, yeah, great. You 253 00:09:35,455 --> 00:09:36,434 know? But where? 254 00:09:37,534 --> 00:09:40,174 It's easy for, you know, large countries with 255 00:09:40,174 --> 00:09:42,210 large areas of, you know, 256 00:09:42,769 --> 00:09:45,170 pretty empty I'm talking about empty as in 257 00:09:45,170 --> 00:09:46,309 terms of human terms, 258 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:49,590 landscapes like, you know, Canada or whatever 259 00:09:50,129 --> 00:09:52,610 to and I think using a European example, 260 00:09:52,610 --> 00:09:54,230 you know, the the Scandi states, 261 00:09:54,690 --> 00:09:56,790 so Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland, 262 00:09:57,504 --> 00:10:00,404 very easy for them to identify 30%. 263 00:10:00,944 --> 00:10:03,504 But it's it's a tricky proposition for some 264 00:10:03,504 --> 00:10:04,245 of the smaller, 265 00:10:04,625 --> 00:10:07,524 more densely populated countries like England, 266 00:10:08,625 --> 00:10:11,184 or Belgium or the other lowland countries in 267 00:10:11,184 --> 00:10:11,684 Europe. 268 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:13,790 I think a better approach 269 00:10:14,410 --> 00:10:16,910 would be to look at it in terms 270 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:18,830 of biomes, ecological, 271 00:10:20,570 --> 00:10:23,930 areas across whichever region we're looking at. And 272 00:10:23,930 --> 00:10:25,769 so we wrote a paper for the World 273 00:10:25,769 --> 00:10:26,830 Wilderness Congress 274 00:10:27,210 --> 00:10:27,950 last year 275 00:10:28,304 --> 00:10:30,945 where we we'd already mapped wilderness quality in 276 00:10:30,945 --> 00:10:34,644 Europe, version two of that, across Continental Europe. 277 00:10:34,784 --> 00:10:36,384 And we started to sort of slice it 278 00:10:36,384 --> 00:10:38,705 up based on these 30 by 30 targets 279 00:10:38,705 --> 00:10:40,465 and say, well, you know, where is the 280 00:10:40,465 --> 00:10:41,605 top 30% 281 00:10:41,829 --> 00:10:44,389 wildest landscape in in Europe? And if we 282 00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:46,889 were thinking about targeting areas for rewilding, 283 00:10:47,429 --> 00:10:48,730 that might seem reasonable. 284 00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:52,629 However, it's very biased towards the, you know, 285 00:10:52,629 --> 00:10:55,589 the high altitude, high latitude areas that could 286 00:10:55,589 --> 00:10:56,205 do that. 287 00:10:56,605 --> 00:10:59,085 Rocks and ice, Dave called it. Absa yeah. 288 00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:01,644 Absolutely. As you would expect. So that's kinda 289 00:11:01,644 --> 00:11:03,165 missing the point. I mean, but there's a 290 00:11:03,165 --> 00:11:05,325 there's we sliced it up politically as well. 291 00:11:05,325 --> 00:11:07,325 So we also said, okay. Where's the top 292 00:11:07,325 --> 00:11:09,665 30 on a country by country basis? 293 00:11:10,019 --> 00:11:11,220 And, of course, in doing that, you've got 294 00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:13,220 a lot of small smallish countries in in 295 00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:15,720 in Europe. You suddenly increase the area, which 296 00:11:15,779 --> 00:11:18,040 if you're taking the total area of Europe, 297 00:11:18,179 --> 00:11:20,120 suddenly increase the area somewhat 298 00:11:20,420 --> 00:11:22,840 that's covered by these 30 by 30 targets. 299 00:11:23,139 --> 00:11:24,975 But then you think, well, actually, this is 300 00:11:24,975 --> 00:11:27,075 missing the point entirely is where, 301 00:11:27,455 --> 00:11:29,134 I think it was Leopold that said, you 302 00:11:29,134 --> 00:11:31,375 know, the first rule of intelligent tinkering is, 303 00:11:31,375 --> 00:11:33,934 you know, keep all the parts. Mhmm. There's 304 00:11:33,934 --> 00:11:36,575 somebody who tinkers with old British motorcycles. I've 305 00:11:36,575 --> 00:11:39,554 I've fully ascribed to that, that mantra. 306 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,240 So why not, you know, why not look 307 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,680 for the top 30% 308 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:45,920 on a, you know, sort of European biome 309 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:46,420 level? 310 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,139 And then then you get a really interesting 311 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,700 image out, which I think is a more, 312 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:53,300 you know, ecologically 313 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,460 sound way forward. 314 00:11:55,894 --> 00:11:57,654 Because you then come back to the problems 315 00:11:57,654 --> 00:12:00,375 of, political geographies because a lot of these 316 00:12:00,375 --> 00:12:02,235 areas that, you know, you're dealing with transboundary 317 00:12:02,455 --> 00:12:04,315 conservation, of course. Yeah. 318 00:12:04,934 --> 00:12:06,695 You know, you've got the tricky issue of 319 00:12:06,695 --> 00:12:07,595 how you coordinate 320 00:12:07,975 --> 00:12:09,195 across national boundaries, 321 00:12:09,815 --> 00:12:10,955 international boundaries 322 00:12:11,470 --> 00:12:13,309 to achieve those aims. And, you know, as 323 00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:15,389 we started talking about that, you know, the 324 00:12:15,389 --> 00:12:17,009 world is not a particularly, 325 00:12:19,149 --> 00:12:21,789 you know, a place which where everybody's speaking 326 00:12:21,789 --> 00:12:22,350 on the same 327 00:12:23,149 --> 00:12:24,909 singing from the same English English sheet at 328 00:12:24,909 --> 00:12:27,485 the moment, politically speaking at least. Yeah. 329 00:12:28,345 --> 00:12:30,845 It is it does seem like a club, 330 00:12:31,384 --> 00:12:33,144 you know, just hitting something over the head 331 00:12:33,144 --> 00:12:35,004 with a we just need 30%. 332 00:12:35,544 --> 00:12:37,544 When you bring up the biomes, and and 333 00:12:37,544 --> 00:12:39,625 there are places I mean, you could get 334 00:12:39,625 --> 00:12:40,605 to 30% 335 00:12:40,664 --> 00:12:41,519 in, like, 336 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:43,300 in Nevada 337 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,620 Mhmm. The state. And and that 30% 338 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:48,660 would do 339 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,059 next to nothing for, 340 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:52,179 you know, 341 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,059 biological diversity compared to 342 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,059 going to all the hot spots. 343 00:12:57,495 --> 00:12:59,254 Yeah. I I wonder and this is a 344 00:12:59,254 --> 00:13:01,174 this is a huge problem for you map 345 00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:03,654 guys because when you get on audio podcasts, 346 00:13:03,654 --> 00:13:05,414 the very best thing that you can do 347 00:13:05,414 --> 00:13:07,735 to demonstrate your work is That's right. Show 348 00:13:07,735 --> 00:13:09,975 a map. Look at this picture. Yeah. But 349 00:13:09,975 --> 00:13:11,669 you but you've also been aware of this 350 00:13:11,669 --> 00:13:13,190 problem for quite some time, and it's probably 351 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:14,889 made you really good at explaining 352 00:13:15,669 --> 00:13:18,149 what you're saying what what what they you'd 353 00:13:18,149 --> 00:13:21,370 otherwise be seeing. Like, I'm really interested in, 354 00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:23,750 you know, what would an overlay look like 355 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:26,615 when you went from just 30% 356 00:13:26,615 --> 00:13:28,074 to Uh-huh. The biomes? 357 00:13:28,774 --> 00:13:30,714 How did those two maps look different? 358 00:13:31,654 --> 00:13:33,754 Well, as I said, the the the original 359 00:13:33,814 --> 00:13:36,134 map looks, you know, like we're looking at 360 00:13:36,134 --> 00:13:38,720 the the Nolovin Climbs and the high altitude 361 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,740 areas. There's very strong altitudinal 362 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:42,100 and latitudinal 363 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,220 bias 364 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:46,019 to the top 30% in Europe, 365 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,399 if you took Europe as a whole. So 366 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:50,639 you've got all of the northern areas of 367 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:53,539 Northern Finland and Norway and Sweden, Iceland, 368 00:13:54,134 --> 00:13:55,274 very well represented. 369 00:13:55,815 --> 00:13:57,654 And in the northern areas, of course, we 370 00:13:57,654 --> 00:13:58,154 included, 371 00:13:58,535 --> 00:14:00,315 Russia up to the, Urals. 372 00:14:01,815 --> 00:14:04,934 And all of the, high altitude areas are 373 00:14:04,934 --> 00:14:07,735 nicely represented. So the Alps, the Pyrenees, the 374 00:14:07,735 --> 00:14:08,235 Carpathians, 375 00:14:09,529 --> 00:14:10,029 etcetera. 376 00:14:10,649 --> 00:14:13,610 As soon as you change that to country 377 00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:14,110 level, 378 00:14:15,689 --> 00:14:16,509 you know, the 379 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:19,610 you still see that in microcosm. So it's 380 00:14:19,610 --> 00:14:23,684 the the high altitude, high latitude areas where, 381 00:14:23,764 --> 00:14:25,304 you know, those countries are represented, 382 00:14:25,764 --> 00:14:27,524 they're standing out. But then you see some 383 00:14:27,524 --> 00:14:28,024 very 384 00:14:28,404 --> 00:14:29,544 broken fragmented 385 00:14:29,924 --> 00:14:31,784 patterns in countries which are 386 00:14:32,164 --> 00:14:34,504 low lying, relatively highly populated, 387 00:14:34,965 --> 00:14:36,024 densely populated, 388 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:38,370 you know, countries like Belgium and things, very 389 00:14:38,370 --> 00:14:39,990 sort of fragmented pattern. 390 00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:42,370 Soon as you then sort of think, well, 391 00:14:42,370 --> 00:14:45,830 okay. Let's take identify the top 30% 392 00:14:46,769 --> 00:14:47,750 via biome, 393 00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:50,470 then the pattern changes again entirely. 394 00:14:51,024 --> 00:14:52,945 Yes. You've still got those well, if you 395 00:14:52,945 --> 00:14:54,884 think about it, you know, those classic 396 00:14:55,424 --> 00:14:57,904 school Atlas images of all of the different 397 00:14:57,904 --> 00:14:59,044 worlds, different biomes, 398 00:14:59,664 --> 00:15:01,664 then you start seeing, you know, the top 399 00:15:01,664 --> 00:15:02,485 30% 400 00:15:02,544 --> 00:15:04,865 within those. And that's when it starts to 401 00:15:04,865 --> 00:15:06,840 get interesting, and it's really tricky to 402 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,820 describe without having a map in front of 403 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:10,759 us. But, 404 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:12,779 yeah, it's it's problematic. 405 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,800 And, of course, the problem with that is 406 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:16,300 that 407 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,379 all of the areas where 408 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,580 we as humans have been able to exploit, 409 00:15:22,105 --> 00:15:25,404 particularly for agriculture, but also latterly for forestry 410 00:15:25,465 --> 00:15:28,365 and for fisheries and for other natural resources. 411 00:15:29,065 --> 00:15:32,365 Those have been, you know, heavily exploited. So 412 00:15:32,985 --> 00:15:33,485 the 413 00:15:34,279 --> 00:15:37,019 lowland, savannah, and, temperate, 414 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:38,460 woodland 415 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,279 landscapes, all of them have been easy to 416 00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:42,779 occupy 417 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:45,080 and to exploit. You know, if you're thinking 418 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,820 about human appropriation of net primary productivity, 419 00:15:48,455 --> 00:15:50,534 that's, you know, the the stuff that we 420 00:15:50,534 --> 00:15:53,654 can extract from essentially soil and and other 421 00:15:53,654 --> 00:15:54,955 other resources 422 00:15:55,654 --> 00:15:57,815 where we've been able to grow food. And 423 00:15:57,815 --> 00:16:01,754 so Yeah. Wild areas are mess immensely underrepresented 424 00:16:02,829 --> 00:16:05,309 in the fertile areas, the areas which were 425 00:16:05,309 --> 00:16:07,409 easy to farm and to settle. 426 00:16:07,870 --> 00:16:10,269 And so that's why that image looking at 427 00:16:10,269 --> 00:16:12,829 the top 30% of the different biomes is 428 00:16:12,829 --> 00:16:14,955 quite interesting, particularly when you look at those 429 00:16:15,434 --> 00:16:18,235 biomes where we've been able to, you know, 430 00:16:18,235 --> 00:16:20,335 easily farm and and to settle. 431 00:16:21,674 --> 00:16:22,975 It's somewhat predictable. 432 00:16:23,835 --> 00:16:25,115 I mean, I I don't think that you 433 00:16:25,115 --> 00:16:27,595 probably were too surprised by the results of 434 00:16:27,595 --> 00:16:29,340 looking at it that way, but it's also 435 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:31,980 sad because it puts rewilding on that map 436 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,860 in that context. It puts rewilding in direct 437 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:36,080 opposition to human 438 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:36,960 progress. 439 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:39,500 You know? It's like we take all the 440 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:41,420 good stuff, and we're like, where's all the 441 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:43,340 good stuff? And it's like, well, you're standing 442 00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:44,960 on where it formerly existed. 443 00:16:45,625 --> 00:16:47,784 And Indeed. And that's the case probably with 444 00:16:47,784 --> 00:16:50,184 these maps is that this they show very 445 00:16:50,184 --> 00:16:51,485 clearly that problem. 446 00:16:52,745 --> 00:16:54,264 Yeah. And I say that's why when you 447 00:16:54,264 --> 00:16:55,884 get into those landscapes 448 00:16:56,264 --> 00:16:57,404 where we have appropriated 449 00:16:57,784 --> 00:16:58,845 that, you know, productivity 450 00:16:59,464 --> 00:17:01,500 for growing food, you know? And don't get 451 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,500 me wrong. We need to feed ourselves. So, 452 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:05,740 you know, when people quite often round on 453 00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:07,500 me saying, oh, you wanna rewild everywhere? I 454 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:09,019 said, no. We don't. I'm as fond of 455 00:17:09,019 --> 00:17:11,200 some food as well that the next person. 456 00:17:11,980 --> 00:17:13,580 So, you know, it's a it's a question 457 00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:16,265 of, you know, going back to 30%. It's 458 00:17:16,265 --> 00:17:18,765 it's where appropriate and where possible. 459 00:17:19,305 --> 00:17:20,345 But it is it is 460 00:17:21,065 --> 00:17:22,984 as you say, it's kinda sad that it's 461 00:17:22,984 --> 00:17:26,605 gonna be really difficult to think about rewilding 462 00:17:26,984 --> 00:17:28,045 and giving nature 463 00:17:28,589 --> 00:17:29,809 some space back 464 00:17:30,269 --> 00:17:31,890 in those areas which 465 00:17:32,349 --> 00:17:33,569 are easily farmed, 466 00:17:34,349 --> 00:17:36,669 or, you know, more productive land. So if 467 00:17:36,669 --> 00:17:38,509 you just take The UK, for example, you 468 00:17:38,509 --> 00:17:39,809 know, a lot of our rewilding 469 00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:40,690 efforts 470 00:17:40,990 --> 00:17:42,450 are really focused on 471 00:17:43,035 --> 00:17:43,535 the, 472 00:17:43,994 --> 00:17:46,875 low grade agricultural land. You know, so, you 473 00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:48,475 know, like The US, we have a land 474 00:17:48,475 --> 00:17:51,295 capability system, which, you know, puts grade one 475 00:17:51,755 --> 00:17:54,075 agricultural land, you know, which is great for 476 00:17:54,075 --> 00:17:55,615 growing high value horticultural 477 00:17:56,075 --> 00:17:56,575 products, 478 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:58,940 fruit and veggies, for example. 479 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,880 And grade two land's great for arable, you 480 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,820 know, for growing, grain crops. 481 00:18:04,279 --> 00:18:06,039 Grade three is great for grazing, you know, 482 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:08,859 for milk production and and beef cattle, etcetera. 483 00:18:09,514 --> 00:18:11,774 Grade four, you start to get into marginal 484 00:18:12,315 --> 00:18:14,974 land where, you know, production is largely 485 00:18:15,595 --> 00:18:18,554 dependent on government subsidies for it to turn 486 00:18:18,554 --> 00:18:21,214 a profit. And then grade five, grade six, 487 00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:23,019 you know, you you can't really do much 488 00:18:23,019 --> 00:18:25,100 on that except a bit of forestry, bit 489 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:26,799 of kind of rough grazing, 490 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:28,000 and recreation. 491 00:18:28,539 --> 00:18:29,680 So it naturally 492 00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:32,299 rewilding finds its home in some of these 493 00:18:32,299 --> 00:18:33,600 more marginal landscapes. 494 00:18:34,144 --> 00:18:36,224 And that just makes it really fragmented and 495 00:18:36,224 --> 00:18:39,284 difficult to see how you can maintain connectivity 496 00:18:39,585 --> 00:18:40,565 in a representative 497 00:18:41,424 --> 00:18:42,644 set of ecosystems 498 00:18:43,664 --> 00:18:46,625 across a continent like Europe, indeed The US, 499 00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:47,284 for example, 500 00:18:48,009 --> 00:18:50,170 you know, where much of the productive land 501 00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:52,190 has fallen under the hoof and the plow. 502 00:18:53,369 --> 00:18:55,069 Which I think it's pretty 503 00:18:55,529 --> 00:18:57,849 obvious why we needed to add another c 504 00:18:57,849 --> 00:18:59,069 to the three c's. 505 00:19:00,515 --> 00:19:01,654 And that is coexistence 506 00:19:01,955 --> 00:19:04,035 because I don't see how you get two 507 00:19:04,035 --> 00:19:06,295 rewilding goals in these very tight, 508 00:19:06,595 --> 00:19:07,095 delicate 509 00:19:07,795 --> 00:19:10,934 areas and and situations and cultures and politics 510 00:19:11,634 --> 00:19:12,134 without 511 00:19:12,434 --> 00:19:13,654 a really big 512 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:15,100 focus on coexistence. 513 00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:17,740 Yeah. And, you know, that's 514 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,740 that's why we need that really big shared 515 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:24,980 vision and common common set of principles at 516 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,340 a global level. You know, it it's 517 00:19:28,755 --> 00:19:31,154 I just don't see that happening. Unfortunately, I 518 00:19:31,154 --> 00:19:33,634 don't want to be pessimistic. But I see 519 00:19:33,634 --> 00:19:35,315 a lot of good stuff going on at 520 00:19:35,315 --> 00:19:37,715 a sort of an individual country level and 521 00:19:37,715 --> 00:19:38,215 individual, 522 00:19:38,835 --> 00:19:40,134 you know, philanthropic 523 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,119 type projects and what have you. But I 524 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,380 just don't see that global cooperation, 525 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,580 what's necessary 526 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,019 to, you know, produce these big wins, 527 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,360 you know, for shared vision, set of common 528 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:55,815 principles, you know, which we've got now. But, 529 00:19:55,894 --> 00:19:57,894 you know, do you see those being applied 530 00:19:57,894 --> 00:20:00,294 at a global level? Well, yeah, I can't 531 00:20:00,294 --> 00:20:02,294 see that at the moment. You know, don't 532 00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:03,654 get me wrong again. You know, there are 533 00:20:03,654 --> 00:20:06,394 some good, projects outlined, like the global rewilding 534 00:20:06,534 --> 00:20:08,634 alliance, you know, pushing on this door. 535 00:20:09,109 --> 00:20:10,470 But, yeah, it is a it is a 536 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:12,789 tool for global sustainability. And if we get 537 00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:14,789 it right, then I I see there's hope. 538 00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:16,009 But if we don't, 539 00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:18,309 and, you know, and how many wakes the 540 00:20:18,309 --> 00:20:19,670 world go round it, 541 00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:22,789 it's also a great, source of inertia for 542 00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:24,570 any of this kind of forward thinking. 543 00:20:25,484 --> 00:20:28,305 It's also not made any easier by rewilding 544 00:20:28,445 --> 00:20:30,525 being such a popular term that people are 545 00:20:30,525 --> 00:20:32,464 using it for gut biome, 546 00:20:34,285 --> 00:20:35,265 ebook sales, 547 00:20:35,884 --> 00:20:38,125 men beating their chests and playing drums in 548 00:20:38,125 --> 00:20:38,785 the woods, 549 00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:40,869 and calling Rice sauces. 550 00:20:41,569 --> 00:20:43,970 Yes. Yes. I mean, the rice sauce calls 551 00:20:43,970 --> 00:20:44,470 rewilding. 552 00:20:44,849 --> 00:20:47,009 I mean, it is a fantastic word. It's 553 00:20:47,009 --> 00:20:48,929 one of the best words that humanity has 554 00:20:48,929 --> 00:20:50,470 ever come up with, but, 555 00:20:51,009 --> 00:20:53,169 yeah, it is you know, and that's why 556 00:20:53,169 --> 00:20:55,089 I wanted to talk to you because you 557 00:20:55,089 --> 00:20:56,825 are part of a team that tried to 558 00:20:56,825 --> 00:20:58,505 make sense of it all, and in a 559 00:20:58,505 --> 00:21:00,505 way that would make it make sense as 560 00:21:00,505 --> 00:21:01,325 best possible 561 00:21:02,025 --> 00:21:04,025 for anyone trying to understand how they might 562 00:21:04,025 --> 00:21:06,424 implement something in their country, in their city, 563 00:21:06,424 --> 00:21:07,319 in their town, 564 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,880 anywhere in the world, and, 565 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:13,159 not a small task. And so why do 566 00:21:13,159 --> 00:21:13,819 you think 567 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:16,279 is this still just way up in the 568 00:21:16,279 --> 00:21:16,779 clouds? 569 00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:19,159 Like, you released all of this stuff. It's 570 00:21:19,159 --> 00:21:21,585 still being kinda discussed at a high level 571 00:21:21,585 --> 00:21:23,505 and everything. How does it fall from where 572 00:21:23,505 --> 00:21:24,965 it is to the ground 573 00:21:25,664 --> 00:21:27,125 and start to become 574 00:21:27,984 --> 00:21:29,605 maybe a messily applied, 575 00:21:30,705 --> 00:21:33,505 factor in how people do rewilding in their 576 00:21:33,505 --> 00:21:34,005 area? 577 00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:36,589 Yeah. Well, I I think, you know, going 578 00:21:36,589 --> 00:21:37,409 back to that, 579 00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:40,049 you know, comment I made about Dolly Oganston's 580 00:21:40,109 --> 00:21:42,589 paper about it being a plastic term. I 581 00:21:42,589 --> 00:21:44,429 think this, you know, the work that we've 582 00:21:44,429 --> 00:21:45,809 done has tried to, 583 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:47,569 you know, kind of solidify 584 00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:49,005 that and, 585 00:21:50,105 --> 00:21:52,284 remove some of that undue flexibility 586 00:21:52,904 --> 00:21:54,924 in what is and isn't rewilding. 587 00:21:55,784 --> 00:21:58,605 And so I think having a a unifying 588 00:21:58,744 --> 00:21:59,244 definition, 589 00:22:00,105 --> 00:22:03,380 which is kinda wordy, but it necessarily 590 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,140 had to be, 591 00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:07,919 and a set of principles of which, you 592 00:22:07,919 --> 00:22:08,419 know, 593 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:09,460 projects, 594 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:10,339 individuals, 595 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:11,220 organizations 596 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:13,759 can go down a list of principles and 597 00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:16,164 go tick tick, maybe not, you know, or, 598 00:22:16,164 --> 00:22:19,204 yeah, we aspire to that particular principle, but 599 00:22:19,204 --> 00:22:20,585 we're not there yet. 600 00:22:20,964 --> 00:22:22,904 I think having those set of principles 601 00:22:23,924 --> 00:22:25,464 and a series of guidelines 602 00:22:26,805 --> 00:22:29,285 enables people to think, is what I'm doing 603 00:22:29,285 --> 00:22:31,224 rewilding, or is it something else? 604 00:22:31,730 --> 00:22:34,049 And, you know, if it's regenerative agriculture or 605 00:22:34,049 --> 00:22:36,470 if it's more traditional ecological restoration, 606 00:22:37,009 --> 00:22:39,089 there's nothing wrong with that. I think, you 607 00:22:39,089 --> 00:22:41,750 know, conservation needs a spectrum of approaches. 608 00:22:42,529 --> 00:22:44,210 But, you know, let's be clear as to 609 00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:45,029 what rewilding 610 00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:45,830 is. 611 00:22:46,174 --> 00:22:47,694 Yeah, it's nice for people to say, Well, 612 00:22:47,694 --> 00:22:50,575 I'm rewilding my gut buyer and by eating 613 00:22:50,575 --> 00:22:52,494 soil or whatever. You know, I probably did 614 00:22:52,494 --> 00:22:53,694 that as a kid, you probably did as 615 00:22:53,694 --> 00:22:56,575 well. But, you know, when we're talking about 616 00:22:56,575 --> 00:22:58,654 it, and as a conservation approach, I think 617 00:22:58,654 --> 00:23:00,174 we need to be pretty clear as to 618 00:23:00,174 --> 00:23:01,154 what that is. 619 00:23:01,750 --> 00:23:02,250 And 620 00:23:02,869 --> 00:23:05,190 I mean, yes, it's it's a great word 621 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:07,429 in some respects in that, you know, it's 622 00:23:07,429 --> 00:23:07,929 got 623 00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:09,289 the public imagination. 624 00:23:10,069 --> 00:23:12,470 It's also wound some people up as well. 625 00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:15,829 It was, it's not, it's not universally light. 626 00:23:15,829 --> 00:23:17,464 And And to be honest, I'm not awfully 627 00:23:17,464 --> 00:23:19,085 keen on it because the rebate 628 00:23:19,625 --> 00:23:21,704 has been a bit of a fostered hostage 629 00:23:21,704 --> 00:23:23,384 to fortune, and a lot of people say, 630 00:23:23,384 --> 00:23:24,744 oh, we can't turn the clock back in 631 00:23:24,744 --> 00:23:26,684 the two thousand years or whatever. I said, 632 00:23:26,744 --> 00:23:28,904 well, that's not what it's really about. It's 633 00:23:28,904 --> 00:23:29,964 a forward looking 634 00:23:30,649 --> 00:23:31,149 approach. 635 00:23:31,529 --> 00:23:33,690 So, you know, maybe wilding or nature led 636 00:23:33,690 --> 00:23:34,190 ecosystems 637 00:23:34,649 --> 00:23:36,730 or whatever. I don't know. But, 638 00:23:37,210 --> 00:23:39,509 you know, we came up with a a 639 00:23:39,529 --> 00:23:42,615 sort of a simple model which explains the 640 00:23:42,775 --> 00:23:43,595 distinction between 641 00:23:44,134 --> 00:23:45,275 ecological restoration 642 00:23:45,654 --> 00:23:47,515 and rewilding, and that we say that 643 00:23:48,134 --> 00:23:49,194 ecological restoration 644 00:23:50,134 --> 00:23:52,474 is human led nature enabled. 645 00:23:52,934 --> 00:23:55,355 So in other words, it's it's us 646 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,539 using, you know, net nature based approaches 647 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,460 to achieve a particular 648 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,480 outcome, you know, and whether that if that's 649 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,720 been a restoration of coral reef, or it's 650 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,180 river restoration or whatever. 651 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,299 We're using 652 00:24:08,695 --> 00:24:11,595 nature based solutions to achieve a particular 653 00:24:12,215 --> 00:24:13,275 desired outcome. 654 00:24:13,815 --> 00:24:15,815 Rewilding flips that on its head, and we 655 00:24:15,815 --> 00:24:16,715 say that rewilding 656 00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:17,914 is 657 00:24:18,615 --> 00:24:19,515 nature led, 658 00:24:19,894 --> 00:24:22,154 human enabled. So it's nature 659 00:24:23,009 --> 00:24:23,509 determining, 660 00:24:24,369 --> 00:24:25,349 it's still an ecological 661 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:27,029 trajectory, and it's 662 00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:30,049 us having the humility and the far sight 663 00:24:30,049 --> 00:24:32,690 to actually give it the space and indeed 664 00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:34,869 the time to allow it to do that. 665 00:24:35,315 --> 00:24:36,755 So it doesn't we don't have a set 666 00:24:36,994 --> 00:24:39,714 an outcome from rewilding. It's it's it's kind 667 00:24:39,714 --> 00:24:41,714 of a you know, it's an open ended 668 00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:43,015 process in that respect. 669 00:24:43,554 --> 00:24:45,974 We And you scientists hate those things. 670 00:24:46,835 --> 00:24:49,849 Those are not conducive to you know? But 671 00:24:49,849 --> 00:24:52,269 it's also it's just really hard to 672 00:24:53,210 --> 00:24:54,809 you you want it to mean what you 673 00:24:54,809 --> 00:24:55,630 just said 674 00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:58,430 without saying what you just said. 675 00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:00,990 Just one word could do that. 676 00:25:01,369 --> 00:25:03,450 And then there was a lot of fighting. 677 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:05,634 There's fighting constantly to this day over the 678 00:25:05,634 --> 00:25:06,934 idea of wilderness, 679 00:25:07,634 --> 00:25:10,115 whether Satan's wilderness can be wild. What are 680 00:25:10,115 --> 00:25:12,275 you talking about? Pre industrial. You know, all 681 00:25:12,275 --> 00:25:14,115 of those arguments. And I saw the same 682 00:25:14,115 --> 00:25:17,075 arguments over rewilding. And then the whole move 683 00:25:17,075 --> 00:25:18,835 to say, well, let's come up with something 684 00:25:18,835 --> 00:25:21,420 else that makes that happen. And 685 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,140 and so I don't know. I think that 686 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,759 speaks of wildness in our language, in our 687 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:27,980 ability to communicate. 688 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,920 But, you know, and, you know, I'll I'll 689 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,640 quote, Tony Sinclair here in the chat that, 690 00:25:34,125 --> 00:25:36,065 you know, if a thing be it restoration 691 00:25:36,125 --> 00:25:36,944 or rewilding, 692 00:25:37,244 --> 00:25:39,085 you know, term rather, you know, applies to 693 00:25:39,085 --> 00:25:41,884 everything, then it also means nothing. Right. So 694 00:25:41,884 --> 00:25:44,224 we can't call everything rewilding, 695 00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:47,799 even if we are, You know? And it's 696 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:48,519 it's a very 697 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:53,559 there's a a particular famous rewilding project that 698 00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:55,640 calls itself a rewilding project in in The 699 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,140 UK, 700 00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:58,119 and they wrote a big book recently called 701 00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,880 The Book of Wilding. And in there, they 702 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,640 said, oh, you you can even rewild your 703 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,714 window box. You know? I think, well, maybe 704 00:26:03,714 --> 00:26:04,775 you can't. You know? 705 00:26:05,315 --> 00:26:05,815 Yeah. 706 00:26:06,115 --> 00:26:08,035 It's, you know, I think that's that's taking 707 00:26:08,035 --> 00:26:10,054 things to, you know, silly extreme. 708 00:26:10,355 --> 00:26:12,355 You know, it needs to happen at scale. 709 00:26:12,355 --> 00:26:14,994 It needs to be connected. It needs to 710 00:26:14,994 --> 00:26:16,214 be nature led. 711 00:26:16,595 --> 00:26:17,654 All of those things 712 00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:19,910 that is as I said earlier, it's it's 713 00:26:19,910 --> 00:26:22,890 not it's it's not the the only solution. 714 00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:24,470 You know, I think, you know, there's a 715 00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:27,590 room for traditional conservation. There's a room for 716 00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:28,650 ecological restoration. 717 00:26:29,349 --> 00:26:32,244 There's room for nature, high nature value farming, 718 00:26:32,244 --> 00:26:34,105 as we call it, or regenerative agriculture, 719 00:26:34,884 --> 00:26:36,505 all of those things have a place, 720 00:26:36,964 --> 00:26:39,045 you know, and that's when we've come back 721 00:26:39,045 --> 00:26:40,505 to that question about 722 00:26:40,884 --> 00:26:42,825 it being place based and participatory. 723 00:26:43,684 --> 00:26:45,684 You know, these things happen in space and 724 00:26:45,684 --> 00:26:46,184 time, 725 00:26:46,529 --> 00:26:49,570 particular location, and that gives it context, you 726 00:26:49,570 --> 00:26:52,390 know, be that political or cultural or geographical 727 00:26:52,609 --> 00:26:53,109 or, 728 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:54,470 you know, ecological 729 00:26:54,850 --> 00:26:55,350 context. 730 00:26:56,049 --> 00:26:57,970 And we you know, rewilding needs to be 731 00:26:57,970 --> 00:27:00,535 cognizant of all of those things and and, 732 00:27:00,535 --> 00:27:02,954 you know, only apply rewilding 733 00:27:03,255 --> 00:27:04,154 and the rewilding 734 00:27:04,695 --> 00:27:05,195 term 735 00:27:05,575 --> 00:27:07,755 where it is appropriate to do so. 736 00:27:09,494 --> 00:27:09,994 So 737 00:27:10,615 --> 00:27:11,674 what if an organization 738 00:27:12,535 --> 00:27:13,835 who will remain anonymous 739 00:27:14,295 --> 00:27:16,230 gets lots and lots of emails 740 00:27:16,529 --> 00:27:17,349 from people 741 00:27:17,809 --> 00:27:19,269 who don't understand 742 00:27:19,809 --> 00:27:22,369 what you're talking about here today, the scale, 743 00:27:22,369 --> 00:27:24,470 the scope, the principles Mhmm. 744 00:27:24,849 --> 00:27:27,089 Of rewilding, and they are 745 00:27:27,490 --> 00:27:28,545 they have just 746 00:27:28,945 --> 00:27:31,664 inherited 75 acres, and they don't want to 747 00:27:31,664 --> 00:27:33,184 do what their parents did with it. They 748 00:27:33,184 --> 00:27:36,465 want to rewild it. Maybe 75 acres fits 749 00:27:36,465 --> 00:27:38,465 in the plan, but some people also write 750 00:27:38,465 --> 00:27:39,125 us about 751 00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:43,045 backyard level stuff, which sort of screams 752 00:27:43,585 --> 00:27:45,960 the window box thing a little bit. Just 753 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,279 a little bit. Yeah. But if everybody did 754 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:48,779 it, 755 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,240 then there would be economies of scale. You 756 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,399 know? Those Yeah. 757 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:53,980 100,000, 758 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,779 you know, million backyards, whatever, all doing, 759 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,125 you know, kind of 760 00:27:58,684 --> 00:28:01,505 rewilding things. So instead of applying the glyphosate 761 00:28:01,644 --> 00:28:03,644 and, you know, weeding out everything all of 762 00:28:03,644 --> 00:28:05,325 the time, then, you know, letting, 763 00:28:05,964 --> 00:28:07,904 nature take its course a little bit more. 764 00:28:07,964 --> 00:28:09,404 You know? And I do that in my 765 00:28:09,404 --> 00:28:11,325 little tiny little bit of The UK. I 766 00:28:11,325 --> 00:28:12,545 don't cut my lawn 767 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,599 And, until my my my wife sort of 768 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,119 starts nagging me, you really ought to cut 769 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,960 that because it's starting to look too messy. 770 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,480 So I'll cut it maybe twice a year 771 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:20,980 now. 772 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,359 I wouldn't call it rewilding. You know, it's 773 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:24,339 great for the pollinators 774 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:26,720 and and, you know, maybe some of the 775 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,924 local wildlife, but, yeah, it's not really rewilding. 776 00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:32,005 But if everybody did it, 777 00:28:32,305 --> 00:28:34,705 then It would be. Well, which Yeah. It 778 00:28:34,705 --> 00:28:35,664 kind of started 779 00:28:36,225 --> 00:28:38,884 one of the biggest growth sectors in America 780 00:28:39,105 --> 00:28:42,005 is the American lawn, and it's like 40,000,000 781 00:28:42,065 --> 00:28:42,565 acres, 782 00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:44,700 you know, total under 783 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:45,980 a foreign 784 00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:47,659 invasive species 785 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:49,099 with absolutely 786 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,579 no biological diversity whatsoever, 787 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,019 and it's basically peer pressure from our ancestors. 788 00:28:55,404 --> 00:28:57,484 Dead people are still telling us we need 789 00:28:57,484 --> 00:29:00,924 to have green manicured lawns, and everyone is 790 00:29:00,924 --> 00:29:02,625 practically everyone is listening 791 00:29:02,924 --> 00:29:04,785 to that old outdated advice, 792 00:29:05,325 --> 00:29:06,704 and while they begrudgingly 793 00:29:07,005 --> 00:29:09,549 go out every week and mow it, they 794 00:29:09,549 --> 00:29:11,309 don't want to and use all of their 795 00:29:11,309 --> 00:29:11,809 water 796 00:29:12,349 --> 00:29:14,369 to keep it watered. And 797 00:29:14,910 --> 00:29:16,910 so, yeah, I mean that's a real patchwork. 798 00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:19,309 We can't get more patchy than just neighborhood 799 00:29:19,309 --> 00:29:21,170 backyards, and at the same time 800 00:29:21,595 --> 00:29:23,674 if birds can jump from place to place 801 00:29:23,674 --> 00:29:25,855 and there are enough of those little places 802 00:29:25,995 --> 00:29:27,755 to get them along their way on their 803 00:29:27,755 --> 00:29:30,815 vast migration route, that has to mean something 804 00:29:30,875 --> 00:29:33,375 if you could develop a movement around it. 805 00:29:33,434 --> 00:29:34,495 Yeah. The biodiversity 806 00:29:35,659 --> 00:29:37,500 gains would be great. Well, it could be 807 00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,059 massive. Going back to your 75 acres, you 808 00:29:40,059 --> 00:29:42,299 know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, doing 809 00:29:42,380 --> 00:29:44,220 you know, I'd love 75 acres. Thank you 810 00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:46,220 very much, and I'll do something similar. You 811 00:29:46,220 --> 00:29:46,619 know, it 812 00:29:47,775 --> 00:29:49,934 but it again, you know, it's about where 813 00:29:49,934 --> 00:29:51,955 that sits in the wider landscape 814 00:29:53,295 --> 00:29:56,115 context. You know? If there's then you know? 815 00:29:56,414 --> 00:29:58,255 So going back, you know, really far back 816 00:29:58,255 --> 00:30:00,755 again in our conversation to the three c's, 817 00:30:00,859 --> 00:30:03,019 you know, cars, corridors, and carnivores, you know, 818 00:30:03,019 --> 00:30:05,180 there's there's there's, you know, when you start 819 00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:05,680 to 820 00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:06,720 idealize, 821 00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:09,039 create a little cartoon of that 822 00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:10,960 in a different types of corridors. 823 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:13,305 So, you know, some of them might be 824 00:30:13,545 --> 00:30:17,785 landscape corridors, riparian corridors, mountain corridors, whatever. But 825 00:30:17,785 --> 00:30:20,904 some might just be stepping stone corridors where 826 00:30:20,904 --> 00:30:23,325 species can move quickly from one 827 00:30:24,025 --> 00:30:27,225 stepping stone to a next, and, get across 828 00:30:27,225 --> 00:30:29,759 a a landscape which is, you know, otherwise 829 00:30:30,380 --> 00:30:32,859 farmed and developed just by, you know, taking 830 00:30:32,859 --> 00:30:34,460 those little jumps like you would on a 831 00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:34,960 chessboard. 832 00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:38,160 And so that's where I think the smaller 833 00:30:38,859 --> 00:30:39,359 projects 834 00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:40,960 can have a role 835 00:30:41,615 --> 00:30:45,215 is bridging the gaps between the larger core 836 00:30:45,215 --> 00:30:46,195 areas where, 837 00:30:46,654 --> 00:30:49,215 you know, landscape corridors are just simply not 838 00:30:49,215 --> 00:30:49,715 possible, 839 00:30:50,335 --> 00:30:52,674 you know, because it's an intensive agricultural 840 00:30:52,975 --> 00:30:53,875 land or whatever. 841 00:30:54,734 --> 00:30:56,434 Then the small scale stuff 842 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,279 can play a really big role, 843 00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:01,839 but it needs to be taken and seen 844 00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:03,859 in that wider landscape setting. 845 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,680 What if we get what if we looked 846 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,240 at it as flyway enrichment? There's another form 847 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,480 of connectivity, and it's in the air above 848 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,505 our heads, and it's migration routes for 849 00:31:14,284 --> 00:31:16,444 for species that find it much, much easier 850 00:31:16,444 --> 00:31:18,284 to jump from one thing to another. They 851 00:31:18,284 --> 00:31:20,365 can fly over the highways. They can fly 852 00:31:20,365 --> 00:31:21,904 over the cities, and, hopefully, 853 00:31:22,365 --> 00:31:24,365 they mostly get through without bashing in the 854 00:31:24,365 --> 00:31:25,345 windows. But, 855 00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:27,630 you know, they have they have it better 856 00:31:27,630 --> 00:31:29,549 in that way. Yeah. And what if we 857 00:31:29,549 --> 00:31:31,789 we we were enriching on the ground in 858 00:31:31,789 --> 00:31:33,390 little spots here and there? It would be 859 00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:33,890 highly 860 00:31:34,509 --> 00:31:35,490 important. That's 861 00:31:35,950 --> 00:31:37,789 a good example. I mean, you know, mammals 862 00:31:37,789 --> 00:31:39,615 can still do without those jumps, but, you 863 00:31:39,615 --> 00:31:42,355 know, obviously, for a bird species, it's easier. 864 00:31:42,974 --> 00:31:44,894 You know, there are still some barriers to 865 00:31:44,894 --> 00:31:47,474 bird migration, particularly in Europe where, 866 00:31:47,855 --> 00:31:50,015 you know, some people like to shoot small 867 00:31:50,015 --> 00:31:51,875 birds, you know, and the on the migration 868 00:31:51,934 --> 00:31:53,375 routes, you know, and they'll wait for them 869 00:31:53,375 --> 00:31:55,769 coming and and and shoot them on migration. 870 00:31:56,390 --> 00:31:58,630 So there are still some human barriers there 871 00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:59,930 regardless of the landscape 872 00:32:00,390 --> 00:32:02,390 barriers. But, yeah, I get the point, is 873 00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:04,710 that it's easier for bird species than it 874 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:06,890 is perhaps a mammal mammalian species. 875 00:32:07,414 --> 00:32:09,015 But, you know, then also you got the, 876 00:32:09,015 --> 00:32:11,414 you know, the the the floristic species as 877 00:32:11,414 --> 00:32:13,414 well. They need to be able to, you 878 00:32:13,414 --> 00:32:16,714 know, shift particularly in this, as climate changes, 879 00:32:16,855 --> 00:32:18,934 they need to shift north, south, you know, 880 00:32:18,934 --> 00:32:20,474 maybe up and down the mountain. 881 00:32:21,009 --> 00:32:24,289 And so connectivity is also important for, for 882 00:32:24,289 --> 00:32:26,630 plants as well as well as for animals. 883 00:32:26,849 --> 00:32:29,490 Yeah. I was just thinking about a story 884 00:32:29,490 --> 00:32:31,829 that Dave Foreman liked to tell about 885 00:32:32,289 --> 00:32:34,049 to kinda put a head on that whole 886 00:32:34,049 --> 00:32:35,269 people like to shoot. 887 00:32:35,875 --> 00:32:38,275 And other people might think well that can't 888 00:32:38,275 --> 00:32:40,275 be very successful in any way, but I 889 00:32:40,275 --> 00:32:41,974 would bring up the passenger pigeon. 890 00:32:43,474 --> 00:32:46,115 And that's exactly how it went from blacking 891 00:32:46,115 --> 00:32:48,454 out the sky for hours and even days 892 00:32:49,269 --> 00:32:50,569 and the big flocks 893 00:32:50,869 --> 00:32:53,450 to nothing, to extinction. And that was precisely 894 00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:54,809 and only because of 895 00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:58,150 one thing, what you just described. So we 896 00:32:58,150 --> 00:32:59,130 are pretty powerful 897 00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:01,589 even when it seems like, oh, that just 898 00:33:01,589 --> 00:33:03,315 seems like a hobby or, you know, we 899 00:33:03,315 --> 00:33:05,335 have made it not a hobby before, but 900 00:33:05,474 --> 00:33:07,335 an effective extinction machine. 901 00:33:07,954 --> 00:33:09,954 Yeah. Yeah. And I'm afraid in The UK, 902 00:33:09,954 --> 00:33:11,335 there's a very strong, 903 00:33:12,755 --> 00:33:14,694 you know, game bird lobby, which 904 00:33:15,009 --> 00:33:15,829 has a particular 905 00:33:16,609 --> 00:33:19,329 take on things, which and they they do 906 00:33:19,329 --> 00:33:19,910 not almost to 907 00:33:20,529 --> 00:33:22,549 a man. They do and it's mostly man. 908 00:33:22,769 --> 00:33:24,069 Do not like rewilding 909 00:33:24,609 --> 00:33:26,849 because it's seen as a a a real 910 00:33:27,009 --> 00:33:28,069 you know, a force 911 00:33:28,369 --> 00:33:29,029 for relinquishing 912 00:33:29,569 --> 00:33:30,069 control 913 00:33:31,144 --> 00:33:31,644 over 914 00:33:31,944 --> 00:33:33,244 habitats and species, 915 00:33:34,585 --> 00:33:36,125 which they will 916 00:33:36,505 --> 00:33:37,964 profess to be protecting. 917 00:33:38,424 --> 00:33:41,065 They're interested in protecting their game birds. Yeah. 918 00:33:41,065 --> 00:33:42,444 But, you know, they will use 919 00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:44,390 the happy coincidences 920 00:33:44,769 --> 00:33:48,150 of other species benefiting from game bird management 921 00:33:48,690 --> 00:33:50,470 as a stick to beat the rewilding 922 00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:53,330 movement with, you know, saying, hey. Look what 923 00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:54,070 we're doing. 924 00:33:54,930 --> 00:33:57,110 Yeah. It's always to protect what they 925 00:33:57,525 --> 00:34:00,184 are really interested in and and not 926 00:34:00,565 --> 00:34:03,205 what they're saying on their brochures. It's never 927 00:34:03,205 --> 00:34:05,285 what they're saying on the brochure. Yeah. So 928 00:34:05,285 --> 00:34:07,924 in The UK, we release we, as a 929 00:34:07,924 --> 00:34:08,425 nation, 930 00:34:09,045 --> 00:34:09,945 the game industry 931 00:34:10,405 --> 00:34:10,905 releases 932 00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:12,720 50 plus million 933 00:34:13,099 --> 00:34:15,579 game birds a year into the English landscape, 934 00:34:15,579 --> 00:34:16,640 the British landscape. 935 00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:19,500 And that's a biomass which is greater than 936 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:21,739 all of the breeding other breeding birds put 937 00:34:21,739 --> 00:34:22,239 together. 938 00:34:22,539 --> 00:34:23,500 You know, it's largely, 939 00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:26,400 ringneck pheasants and, red legged partridge. 940 00:34:26,885 --> 00:34:28,484 I was a bit surprised to find out, 941 00:34:28,484 --> 00:34:30,964 actually, from Tom Opray, as I mentioned earlier, 942 00:34:30,964 --> 00:34:31,284 that, 943 00:34:32,085 --> 00:34:34,724 there is, pheasant shoots in in in The 944 00:34:34,724 --> 00:34:36,184 US as well. So 945 00:34:36,484 --> 00:34:38,964 it's not restricted to the, UK by any 946 00:34:38,964 --> 00:34:39,944 stretch of the imagination. 947 00:34:40,769 --> 00:34:43,010 Yeah. It's really, really hard to get over 948 00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:44,150 some cultural 949 00:34:44,769 --> 00:34:45,909 things that we adopted 950 00:34:46,449 --> 00:34:47,670 hundreds of years ago. 951 00:34:47,969 --> 00:34:50,449 Mhmm. They still seem to be going so 952 00:34:50,449 --> 00:34:50,949 strong. 953 00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:51,750 And 954 00:34:52,130 --> 00:34:54,070 but at the same time, they seem completely 955 00:34:54,130 --> 00:34:55,269 outdated in this 956 00:34:55,805 --> 00:34:58,445 new landscape, this new world we find ourselves 957 00:34:58,445 --> 00:34:58,945 in. 958 00:34:59,244 --> 00:35:01,244 And I think there's some tension there that 959 00:35:01,244 --> 00:35:04,045 makes them desperately cloy to this idea that 960 00:35:04,045 --> 00:35:06,224 we have to have this. It's a tradition. 961 00:35:06,285 --> 00:35:07,105 It's a 962 00:35:07,485 --> 00:35:09,244 I don't know. I I can't put myself 963 00:35:09,244 --> 00:35:11,960 in their heads. I cannot fathom what it's 964 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,839 like to be that obsessed with killing birds. 965 00:35:14,839 --> 00:35:15,339 But, 966 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,280 it's something to deal with, and it's something 967 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,599 to take seriously because it is definitely happening, 968 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:22,760 and they are definitely that good at trying 969 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:23,819 to protect their 970 00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,219 their what they see as their turf. 971 00:35:26,704 --> 00:35:27,525 Yep. Absolutely. 972 00:35:28,545 --> 00:35:30,224 Well, I wanted to talk a little bit 973 00:35:30,224 --> 00:35:32,385 to wrap up here about the future. What 974 00:35:32,385 --> 00:35:33,925 are you excited about? 975 00:35:35,025 --> 00:35:37,105 It's a very, very difficult question to ask 976 00:35:37,105 --> 00:35:38,485 on this podcast lately 977 00:35:38,989 --> 00:35:40,829 because I never know what I'm gonna get 978 00:35:40,829 --> 00:35:44,030 from the other side. Yeah. But, well, where 979 00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:46,589 are the shiny spots that you hold on 980 00:35:46,589 --> 00:35:48,190 to and you remember when you hear bad 981 00:35:48,190 --> 00:35:50,109 news, you still got those shiny spots on 982 00:35:50,109 --> 00:35:52,269 the map that, make you happy, make you 983 00:35:52,269 --> 00:35:53,730 proud, and hopeful? 984 00:35:54,785 --> 00:35:56,005 Yeah. I I think, 985 00:35:56,945 --> 00:35:59,345 well, certainly from a UK context, you know, 986 00:35:59,345 --> 00:36:02,565 there are some really interesting projects getting moving. 987 00:36:02,864 --> 00:36:03,684 You know, we've 988 00:36:04,224 --> 00:36:06,269 we've got a problem in The UK with, 989 00:36:06,349 --> 00:36:07,969 you know, we've got a very truncated 990 00:36:08,349 --> 00:36:11,489 biotic pyramid. You know, the the our largest 991 00:36:11,949 --> 00:36:14,510 mammalian predator is probably a fox or a 992 00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:15,010 badger. 993 00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:16,690 Our largest 994 00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:18,929 avian predator where we've reintroduced, 995 00:36:19,789 --> 00:36:21,809 white tailed eagles or sea eagles 996 00:36:22,485 --> 00:36:22,885 to, 997 00:36:23,285 --> 00:36:24,184 to The UK. 998 00:36:24,805 --> 00:36:27,525 We've got killer whales starting to come back, 999 00:36:27,525 --> 00:36:29,465 hawkers. And so those are all, 1000 00:36:29,765 --> 00:36:31,925 you know, bright spots. But back to the 1001 00:36:31,925 --> 00:36:32,425 mammalian 1002 00:36:33,045 --> 00:36:33,545 predators, 1003 00:36:33,925 --> 00:36:35,545 you know, we have a an overpopulation 1004 00:36:36,405 --> 00:36:39,019 of deer species because they don't have any 1005 00:36:39,019 --> 00:36:39,920 natural predators 1006 00:36:40,619 --> 00:36:42,000 other than ourselves. 1007 00:36:42,699 --> 00:36:43,359 And that, 1008 00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:46,139 as a hobby, it's very different from in 1009 00:36:46,139 --> 00:36:47,920 the in The US. It's very 1010 00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:48,880 controlled. 1011 00:36:49,179 --> 00:36:51,025 You know, you can't just go and, you 1012 00:36:51,025 --> 00:36:53,105 know, take your ticket and shoot a deer 1013 00:36:53,105 --> 00:36:54,625 and put it in the freezer in The 1014 00:36:54,625 --> 00:36:56,945 UK. You know, you've gotta have access to 1015 00:36:56,945 --> 00:36:57,445 land, 1016 00:36:58,224 --> 00:37:00,304 and know the right people and to do 1017 00:37:00,304 --> 00:37:02,784 that. So we don't have that, you know, 1018 00:37:02,784 --> 00:37:03,764 hunting culture. 1019 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,239 So, you know, I'm kind of excited by 1020 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,400 the idea that we might be on the 1021 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,940 cusp of of reintroducing 1022 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:10,900 links 1023 00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:12,739 back into The UK. 1024 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,360 You know, I I it was so close 1025 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,039 a few years ago with one of the 1026 00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:17,940 previous governments. 1027 00:37:18,554 --> 00:37:21,194 It was almost signed off on until somebody 1028 00:37:21,514 --> 00:37:23,594 oh, I can't name names, put raised their 1029 00:37:23,594 --> 00:37:26,315 head, and it got, it got quashed. But 1030 00:37:26,315 --> 00:37:28,094 I think we're close. I'm 1031 00:37:28,635 --> 00:37:30,635 I'm hopeful before I'm pushing up the day 1032 00:37:30,875 --> 00:37:32,714 daisies that I'll see links back in The 1033 00:37:32,714 --> 00:37:33,214 UK. 1034 00:37:33,539 --> 00:37:36,099 Wolves forget it. I quite often say that 1035 00:37:36,099 --> 00:37:37,940 we you know, we're a small island nation 1036 00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:39,640 with a small island mentality. 1037 00:37:40,340 --> 00:37:41,400 And even though 1038 00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:43,239 The UK and Ireland 1039 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:46,820 are the only two major European countries without 1040 00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:48,119 a breeding wolf population, 1041 00:37:48,714 --> 00:37:51,054 you know, because of our island status, 1042 00:37:51,514 --> 00:37:52,494 we would have 1043 00:37:52,954 --> 00:37:56,074 to consciously reintroduce them. And I just don't 1044 00:37:56,074 --> 00:37:56,974 see that happening. 1045 00:37:57,434 --> 00:37:58,875 But, you know, the bright spots, as I 1046 00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:01,054 say, were these, you know, these great projects 1047 00:38:01,194 --> 00:38:03,594 involving some, you know, really wonderful and committed 1048 00:38:03,594 --> 00:38:04,094 people, 1049 00:38:04,769 --> 00:38:06,630 who, you know, doing all the good things. 1050 00:38:07,090 --> 00:38:09,010 But, yeah, you're right. There are so many 1051 00:38:09,010 --> 00:38:11,829 so many depressing stories. But, you know, rewilding's 1052 00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:15,030 a you know, it's, it's a more optimistic 1053 00:38:15,410 --> 00:38:16,949 view of nature conservation. 1054 00:38:17,250 --> 00:38:19,474 And so, you know, I'll keep pushing at 1055 00:38:19,474 --> 00:38:20,934 that door if you don't mind. 1056 00:38:21,235 --> 00:38:23,474 Do you feel do you feel thankful that 1057 00:38:23,474 --> 00:38:26,675 you are are part of this area of 1058 00:38:26,675 --> 00:38:27,175 conservation 1059 00:38:27,875 --> 00:38:28,375 because 1060 00:38:28,675 --> 00:38:29,414 it is, 1061 00:38:29,875 --> 00:38:30,695 by definition, 1062 00:38:31,155 --> 00:38:32,535 a hopeful view 1063 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:35,730 of possibility and the future? I mean, what 1064 00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:37,829 would we do if we were out there 1065 00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:40,930 in any other part of the conservation movement 1066 00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:42,849 that didn't have I mean, it was always 1067 00:38:42,849 --> 00:38:45,489 front lines. It's always bad things happening, and 1068 00:38:45,489 --> 00:38:47,730 it doesn't mean that we're hiding behind it, 1069 00:38:47,730 --> 00:38:49,784 but it it's nice to focus on a 1070 00:38:49,784 --> 00:38:52,925 topic that has power, that has the ability 1071 00:38:53,144 --> 00:38:55,144 to really do something even if it's being 1072 00:38:55,144 --> 00:38:57,644 completely restricted or somewhat restricted now. 1073 00:38:58,184 --> 00:39:00,505 Yeah. I know the old sort of thought 1074 00:39:00,505 --> 00:39:02,744 as conservation is always sort of fighting a 1075 00:39:02,744 --> 00:39:04,349 rear guard. You know? Either 1076 00:39:04,650 --> 00:39:07,449 conservation areas are shrinking and although they're in 1077 00:39:07,530 --> 00:39:09,609 growing in number worldwide, you know, they're a 1078 00:39:09,609 --> 00:39:11,230 lot of them are just paper parks. 1079 00:39:11,690 --> 00:39:13,449 And so, you know, it's yeah. You're right. 1080 00:39:13,449 --> 00:39:15,704 It's it's quite a depressing sort of 1081 00:39:16,505 --> 00:39:17,724 view, you know, biodiversity 1082 00:39:18,184 --> 00:39:20,184 loss and climate change and all the rest 1083 00:39:20,184 --> 00:39:20,765 of it. 1084 00:39:21,065 --> 00:39:23,405 But, you know, rewilding has the potential 1085 00:39:23,864 --> 00:39:25,005 to bend the curve 1086 00:39:25,545 --> 00:39:28,684 and, you know, change that, trajectory 1087 00:39:29,065 --> 00:39:31,244 or at least level it out a bit. 1088 00:39:31,430 --> 00:39:32,869 And so, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, 1089 00:39:32,869 --> 00:39:35,190 immensely proud to have been involved in that 1090 00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:36,710 at one level, as I was saying. And 1091 00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:40,070 I've, you know, I'm, you know, got a 1092 00:39:40,070 --> 00:39:42,390 huge team of people that I owe a 1093 00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:44,630 lot of gratitude to. And as I say, 1094 00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:46,244 I mean, somebody have to have their name 1095 00:39:46,244 --> 00:39:47,605 first. I don't know why it was me. 1096 00:39:47,605 --> 00:39:49,045 I never put my name forward to do 1097 00:39:49,045 --> 00:39:49,545 it. 1098 00:39:50,244 --> 00:39:52,164 But, you know, maybe c beginning of the 1099 00:39:52,164 --> 00:39:53,065 alphabet helps. 1100 00:39:53,444 --> 00:39:53,844 But, 1101 00:39:54,644 --> 00:39:56,565 yeah. Which has been your plan since birth, 1102 00:39:56,565 --> 00:39:58,244 isn't it? I mean, you put myself at 1103 00:39:58,244 --> 00:39:59,385 the front of the alphabet. 1104 00:39:59,739 --> 00:40:02,059 I would be called Aaron a Aardmark, the 1105 00:40:02,059 --> 00:40:05,099 quote, the quote copy of 2,000 AD comic 1106 00:40:05,099 --> 00:40:06,320 from many years ago. 1107 00:40:07,340 --> 00:40:07,840 No. 1108 00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:10,860 Yeah. So immensely proud to have been involved 1109 00:40:10,860 --> 00:40:13,180 and, and humbled to be to have worked 1110 00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:15,119 with a really great set of people. 1111 00:40:15,525 --> 00:40:17,844 But, yeah, I just I'm fully aware of 1112 00:40:17,844 --> 00:40:20,085 the fact that all I've done is draw 1113 00:40:20,085 --> 00:40:22,184 some maps and write some documents. 1114 00:40:22,724 --> 00:40:24,744 It's the people who have been 1115 00:40:25,444 --> 00:40:25,944 utilising 1116 00:40:26,244 --> 00:40:26,984 that information 1117 00:40:27,444 --> 00:40:30,085 and, you know, looking at these guidelines and 1118 00:40:30,085 --> 00:40:32,789 and those guiding principles and principles and going, 1119 00:40:32,789 --> 00:40:34,390 hey. You know what? This is what we're 1120 00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:36,250 doing. This is how we're gonna do it. 1121 00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:38,010 And it's those people who are, 1122 00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:40,410 you know, kinda doing stuff on the ground. 1123 00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:41,750 You know, if I was a rich person 1124 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:43,989 and I'd I'd put my money into, you 1125 00:40:43,989 --> 00:40:46,150 know, doing this on some land that I 1126 00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:48,284 own, but I'm not. So I'm I'm kind 1127 00:40:48,744 --> 00:40:51,005 of forced into, you know, providing, 1128 00:40:52,105 --> 00:40:54,105 some of that top level thinking, you know, 1129 00:40:54,105 --> 00:40:56,344 at a global scale and and then down 1130 00:40:56,344 --> 00:40:59,385 regional and local to help people who do 1131 00:40:59,385 --> 00:40:59,885 have 1132 00:41:00,425 --> 00:41:01,085 the resources, 1133 00:41:01,385 --> 00:41:02,045 the land, 1134 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,840 the time to do it, to give them 1135 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:05,420 a hand. 1136 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,119 Well, I don't I'm gonna push back on 1137 00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:10,280 you. You're being far too humble. You, 1138 00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:13,320 of course, maps are just a way of 1139 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,440 telling a story about a landscape, and you 1140 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:16,940 are 1141 00:41:17,264 --> 00:41:19,105 probably, I would put at the top of 1142 00:41:19,105 --> 00:41:20,964 your list of things, a storyteller, 1143 00:41:21,264 --> 00:41:23,744 a quite good one. And we need people 1144 00:41:23,744 --> 00:41:24,804 who can communicate 1145 00:41:25,105 --> 00:41:25,924 these issues 1146 00:41:26,385 --> 00:41:28,885 and the need and and, the complexities 1147 00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:31,670 like you. So you stand out as an 1148 00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:32,889 example in the world 1149 00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:36,069 as someone who can do that, and it's 1150 00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:39,190 too rare right now. And I'm always encouraging 1151 00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:42,014 people to, you know, think of themselves as 1152 00:41:42,094 --> 00:41:44,014 as people who have stories to tell. The 1153 00:41:44,014 --> 00:41:46,335 work that you do cannot just be submitted 1154 00:41:46,335 --> 00:41:47,315 papers and 1155 00:41:47,775 --> 00:41:49,375 and things like that. It has to be 1156 00:41:49,375 --> 00:41:51,054 to turn around and face the world and 1157 00:41:51,054 --> 00:41:53,614 go, here's why here's what I've learned. Here's 1158 00:41:53,614 --> 00:41:54,514 why it's important. 1159 00:41:55,050 --> 00:41:57,610 And those are all the science communicators, all 1160 00:41:57,610 --> 00:41:59,309 of the conservation communicators, 1161 00:41:59,690 --> 00:42:01,610 as few as I think they are. I 1162 00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:03,930 hope that they're growing, and I hope they 1163 00:42:03,930 --> 00:42:06,030 use you as an example, one example, 1164 00:42:06,329 --> 00:42:08,170 of how that could be possible and what 1165 00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:09,949 that might look like for them. So 1166 00:42:10,335 --> 00:42:12,014 thank you for all your work, and, also, 1167 00:42:12,014 --> 00:42:13,614 thank you for taking the time being here 1168 00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:16,494 today. It was really a good timing. You 1169 00:42:16,494 --> 00:42:18,494 said the students were having their reading week, 1170 00:42:18,494 --> 00:42:20,175 so we couldn't even have picked a better 1171 00:42:20,175 --> 00:42:20,675 time. 1172 00:42:21,054 --> 00:42:23,849 Absolutely not. Yeah. Awesome. Jack. Thank you, Steve. 1173 00:42:24,389 --> 00:42:26,949 Yep. Appreciate it. And, yeah, good luck in 1174 00:42:26,949 --> 00:42:27,530 the future. 1175 00:42:28,389 --> 00:42:30,889 Thanks for listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. 1176 00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:33,449 We do what we do because of you. 1177 00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:35,954 This podcast is supported by listeners like you 1178 00:42:35,954 --> 00:42:37,974 who long to live in a wilder world. 1179 00:42:38,434 --> 00:42:40,914 Please consider donating at rewilding.org 1180 00:42:40,914 --> 00:42:43,155 and subscribe to our weekly news and article 1181 00:42:43,155 --> 00:42:44,535 digest while you're there. 1182 00:42:44,835 --> 00:42:46,595 To go the extra mile, you can follow 1183 00:42:46,595 --> 00:42:49,315 and share Rewilding Earth on Instagram, Facebook, and 1184 00:42:49,315 --> 00:42:49,815 Twitter. 1185 00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:52,340 Bonus points for sharing this podcast with your 1186 00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:52,840 friends. 1187 00:42:53,140 --> 00:42:56,980 To listen to past episodes, go to rewilding.org/pod. 1188 00:42:56,980 --> 00:42:59,559 That's rewilding.org/pod.