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Welcome back to my friends to Aa recovery

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interviews. I'm your host, Howard L. And I'm

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an alcoholic. Sober since 01/01/1988,

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1 day at a time. I'm grateful you've

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joined us,

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Aa recovery interviews is the podcast where alcoholic

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anonymous members from around the world, share their

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extraordinary stories of experience, strength and hope.

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There are more than 150

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awesome interviews in the Aa Recovery interviews podcast

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series.

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Listen to every episode on any podcast app.

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Or at the website, a recovery interviews dot

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com.

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Each story is a powerful testimony of the

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recovery available to all in alcoholic anonymous.

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Today is an encore episode of my interview

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with Jim H,

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originally released in June of 20 21.

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Jim has been a sober member of alcohol

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synonymous since July 19 96.

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My guest on today's podcast, Jim H. Is

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1 of those alcoholic whose una drinking, created

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serious medical problems

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amidst all the other destruction of career and

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family.

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He did not drink much in high school,

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but in college, he was a tide dyed

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in the wall hippie, with a pension for

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marijuana, Hash,

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Lsd, and sell psilocybin mushrooms.

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He used amp to achieve academic success,

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but it was alcohol that took him down

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rapidly

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during his early career as an attorney. He

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became a daily drinker and was ultimately hospitalized

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with alcohol induced cardiomyopathy

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that was destroying his heart muscle.

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But somehow he survived through white knuckle sobriety

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until he felt better, then he drank again,

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Jim repeated this pattern over and over until

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19 96

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when diminishing liver function and gastrointestinal

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distress. Made it impossible to nourish his skeletal

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body. His bottom reached, he crawled into a

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treatment facility and shortly thereafter

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into Aa.

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I met Jim in as early as days

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as of a a nearly 25 years ago.

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As with all newcomers, I had no idea

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whether this very sick man would make it.

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But he kept coming back to the same

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meetings I attended. I got to know him

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and see demonstrated his ardent desire to stay

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sober.

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Sponsored by a good friend of mine, Jim

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worked the steps and continue to stay in

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the middle of the program.

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His physical health was restored.

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Given the opportunity, Jim has shared about the

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bodily destruction that alcohol can cause, even in

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the early years of the disease.

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Where anyone who slipped to hear Gym story,

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they might be moved to make it back

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to the rooms of A sooner than later.

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The importance of his message cannot be understated.

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This is the 20 ninth interview in this

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podcast.

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I'm certain you will find it of immense

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interest. So please enjoy the next hour and

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10 minutes of Aa recovery interviews. With my

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long time good friend and A brother,

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Jim H.

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My name Jim and I'm out alcoholic it.

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Hi, Jim. Great to see you on Zoom.

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That is. Great to hear you on audio

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That is. I'm so glad you could be

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here today to

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join me on the Aa recovery interviews podcast.

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You're actually not in Texas here with me

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as you normally would be, but you're out

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in Mountain view, California.

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Mountain view, California.

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God. How what's it like out there today?

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Freaking gorgeous.

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Is there really? Yeah.

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I came from the heat in the rain,

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and the temperature here during the midday is

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normally around 72.

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Oh my god. Not a cloud in the

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sky and 0 humidity.

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Yeah. Yeah. You and I were talking before

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about what a clear connection you've got to.

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That that the Wifi Is impeccable out there,

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And I would expect it to be with

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Google. Is Google actually headquartered in Mountain View?

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Yes.

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Wow. Okay. It's a kind of a Google

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company town. Is it really? Yeah.

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Well, I know that you've listened to many

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of these Aa, recovery interview,

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podcasts. Before we get started, I just wanted

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to get your feedback on them and and

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once you think about this particular approach,

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I think it's a great approach. Right? There

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are quite a few

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other

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resources out there where they have.

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Mainly Aa talking with each other and things

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like that, but never 1 really where people

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just kinda tell their stories and and respond

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to questions.

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And

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as we were talking a while back on

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my trip back east driving from Houston to

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Washington Dc, I listened to a bunch of

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these. And, you know, some of the folks

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that you did the... I knew already, and

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some I did not. Yeah. Even the ones

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that I knew I found out new things.

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And this just a very relaxing is very

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interesting to me something that I can get

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into and listen to for

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concentrate on without

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multitasking. Yeah. That's good to hear. I appreciate

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that feedback actually. Actually, you're going to be

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interview number 29,

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you and I have known each other. Since

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you first came into the program, I guess.

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And when what year was that? That was

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in

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19 96.

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My Sobriety date was July 30 first.

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Yeah. So

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I met you

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really soon after you came into the program.

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Do you remember that? Well, my first... Meeting

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was

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the meeting at holy name. The investors group.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's where... Well, it's

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been told to go by the folks at

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and they told me to go there and

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get a sponsor. And so that's what I

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did.

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And I sat next to John, and I

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ended up picking,

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Sam for no particular reason

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as my sponsor. Mh. And so then what

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Sam did was take me to a whole

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bunch of meetings, and I Oh, yeah. I'd

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already picked him as my sponsor, and he's

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the 1 that took me to Rose. Right.

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Okay. So I do remember 1 of the

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first times I actually recognized you was... At

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Rose I guess it was. Yes. Yeah. That's

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a long time ago. The beautiful thing about

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it is, you and I've been going to

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the same men's meetings, the same 1 or

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2 men's meetings

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a week, every week with consistency for, virtually

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all that time haven't we. That's right. You

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know, the first time I remember you.

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Was we at the Sunshine men's group. We

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were sitting out there, and

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they were having a group conscience

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which I... That's when I understood what a

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group conscience was

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about whether or not to borrow a member

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because there had been a fight, Oh, yeah.

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Yeah. And you and I were talking about

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that. You know, I was looking at... He

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was super experienced and you had said, well,

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I don't know if I've ever encountered a

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situation like this 4. And, so that's that's

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when I remember you. That was a meeting

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and then I went to virtually every week

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for many, many years, and it moved around

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a little bit, and I remember that of

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the very, very few nights that I missed

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that meeting, this bite actually took place

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between... 2 guys who normally did not come

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to that group. They they were friends of

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1 or 2 regulars who came. And so

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afterwards, for whatever reason they exchanged words with

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each other, and the 1 guy just punched

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the other guy in the jaw, whatever it

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was, the group conscience was to decide that

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neither 1 of those men

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was welcome back at that meeting for the

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fighting that they did. And

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But that's the only time, Jim.

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I've seen that there were actually blows exchanged

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in an Aa meeting. So... Fortunately, it doesn't

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happen very often. No. And and for me

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it was like,

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I had numerous meetings under my belt at

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that time, but I was really new. I

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thought, well this Gonna be an interesting experience.

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Well, yeah. And so how much different

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was hearing that story than hearing the stories

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about people fighting while they're drinking and out

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drunk. Well, you know, I I actually didn't

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know that many folks that got. Drunken fought.

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Yeah. The guys I hung around with or

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pretty much kinda like me.

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And

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we would

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go out and do some stupid things.

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My best friend,

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and I were leaving a bar

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in Downtown, Washington Dc.

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Mh. And it was late at night, and

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we were hammered, but we left and we

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got rolled by a couple of marines from

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the marine base.

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And they cold cock my friend and this

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actually caused them some significant high damage.

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And

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you know, they've just sat on me.

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While, you know, my friend and the other

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guy went at it. And then then the

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marines took off, and you know, they just,

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basically they didn't like the way they looked.

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I think they didn't like the way I

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looked. U. More than him because I had

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gone long hair.

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Whatever, and and they just decided it would

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be fun to go punch out.

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Gee. I guess it was must have been

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fun for them. Not for you though. Yeah.

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That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

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We're kind of picking up the story in

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the middle. Since you just shared something about

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drinking at a point which maybe you weren't.

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An alcoholic yet. Could we take a look

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back at what life was like for you

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from maybe the point where you were kid

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how you

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transitioned into drinking

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socially or with friends?

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Sure.

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I I had a...

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Great home environment.

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Mh. Good family, great parents

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lived in a really nice area. I live...

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I grew up in Pittsburgh, Although Yeah. Born

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in Dc, and I live pittsburgh and my

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dad was a bomber pilot world war 2

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never saw service but flu b 17.

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There was all action I mean. And it...

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So they were the cocktail party generation. You

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know, and we lived in the place that

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was at the time. Am way outside of

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Pittsburgh.

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Great little community, but way outside. And so

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Mh. There what much to do, and so

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people got together and they played bridge. IUI

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remember every new year's day, they... People would

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come over. My parents friends would come over

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and they would have

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football watching kind of a party.

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And so we're early on, I associated drinking,

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watching my parents drink with good times and

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for quality. And I never experienced and he

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had adverse consequences at all for my parents

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drinking.

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Mh. But I started to mix sodas. And

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I would mix cream soda with root beer

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or

270
00:10:34,792 --> 00:10:37,658
orange soda with grapes soda because I saw

271
00:10:37,658 --> 00:10:39,011
my parents mixing drinks.

272
00:10:39,584 --> 00:10:41,904
Oh my gosh. And I wanted to do

273
00:10:41,904 --> 00:10:44,804
that. And Yeah as I became a teenager,

274
00:10:45,184 --> 00:10:47,764
you know, we started to sneak beers and

275
00:10:47,824 --> 00:10:50,235
we would have. Some whiskey and he would

276
00:10:50,235 --> 00:10:51,672
fill the bottle up with water.

277
00:10:52,151 --> 00:10:53,826
I... Yeah. I like the way it made

278
00:10:53,826 --> 00:10:56,540
me feel. And on time, well, you know,

279
00:10:56,794 --> 00:10:58,790
someone had stolen a couple bottles of Scotch.

280
00:10:59,109 --> 00:11:01,663
I had watched my dad make Scotch sour,

281
00:11:01,823 --> 00:11:04,776
and so I made everybody's Scotch sour, and

282
00:11:04,776 --> 00:11:05,415
we got...

283
00:11:05,828 --> 00:11:07,501
My parents were out up for the evening

284
00:11:07,501 --> 00:11:10,210
and we got hammered. Wow, parents came home

285
00:11:10,210 --> 00:11:13,237
and 1 of my friends was passed out

286
00:11:13,237 --> 00:11:15,883
on the garage floor where people had thrown

287
00:11:15,883 --> 00:11:17,321
up all over the house. So we had

288
00:11:17,321 --> 00:11:19,478
to go to the emergency room, and then

289
00:11:19,478 --> 00:11:21,076
1 time, I was at a

290
00:11:21,795 --> 00:11:24,610
Christmas party with my humanity's teacher was giving,

291
00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:26,850
and I got caught by the cops with

292
00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:27,730
a 6 pack.

293
00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:30,370
And so got taken in for that.

294
00:11:32,143 --> 00:11:34,860
And then I went to college and in

295
00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:35,360
college,

296
00:11:36,458 --> 00:11:37,656
I wanted to be a hippie.

297
00:11:38,295 --> 00:11:40,324
And so drinking was

298
00:11:40,777 --> 00:11:43,159
secondary and actually kind of looked down on.

299
00:11:43,397 --> 00:11:45,724
Right? When I got to college, I found

300
00:11:46,097 --> 00:11:48,003
the guy with the longest hair,

301
00:11:48,653 --> 00:11:50,188
I can find. And

302
00:11:50,723 --> 00:11:52,951
I knew about marijuana. And.

303
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:55,101
I knew I wanted to try it because

304
00:11:55,101 --> 00:11:57,488
hippie tried it, and I really desperately wanted

305
00:11:57,488 --> 00:11:58,046
to be happy.

306
00:11:58,697 --> 00:12:00,686
So we've... You know, I walked up to

307
00:12:00,686 --> 00:12:02,777
him when we found marijuana, and,

308
00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:05,220
you know, I was off to the races.

309
00:12:05,394 --> 00:12:07,536
And I did... Yeah. I drank,

310
00:12:08,171 --> 00:12:08,671
but

311
00:12:09,044 --> 00:12:10,099
it was mainly

312
00:12:10,630 --> 00:12:13,590
we smoked a tom. So... Wanted to just

313
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:15,269
unpack a few more of the things that

314
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:17,269
may have contributed later on.

315
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:18,730
So

316
00:12:19,509 --> 00:12:20,570
the way you

317
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:22,983
transition to telling me about... College

318
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,912
makes me think that perhaps you were mostly

319
00:12:25,912 --> 00:12:28,565
involved with alcohol during high school or

320
00:12:29,101 --> 00:12:31,095
did you drink during high school or what

321
00:12:31,095 --> 00:12:33,261
would you're experience during high school. You know,

322
00:12:33,421 --> 00:12:33,660
we...

323
00:12:35,094 --> 00:12:37,007
I really didn't drink much, not for want

324
00:12:37,007 --> 00:12:37,724
of trying.

325
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,450
Because we live. Like I said, we lived

326
00:12:40,450 --> 00:12:42,705
in the kind of a self contained community

327
00:12:43,162 --> 00:12:45,315
that was far from a city center.

328
00:12:45,874 --> 00:12:48,825
Right. There wasn't even AAA real mall nearby.

329
00:12:49,239 --> 00:12:50,834
I mean, there are grocery stores.

330
00:12:51,951 --> 00:12:54,983
Pennsylvania has state stores to sell. That's the

331
00:12:54,983 --> 00:12:56,992
only way you could buy liquor. Was to

332
00:12:56,992 --> 00:12:59,065
go to a state store. And the only

333
00:12:59,065 --> 00:13:00,740
way you could buy beer was to go

334
00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:02,117
to a beer distributor

335
00:13:02,653 --> 00:13:05,147
or you had to go to a bar

336
00:13:05,619 --> 00:13:06,176
And so,

337
00:13:07,531 --> 00:13:09,762
you know, I knew of people that had

338
00:13:09,762 --> 00:13:11,913
contacts and always seem to be able to

339
00:13:11,913 --> 00:13:12,471
get thicker.

340
00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:15,266
And I knew once I got to college,

341
00:13:15,425 --> 00:13:17,092
the folks that were younger than me, my

342
00:13:17,092 --> 00:13:20,110
friends, you know, were able to get beer

343
00:13:20,110 --> 00:13:21,777
and c, but we never were.

344
00:13:22,349 --> 00:13:24,502
I mean, it was a really big deal

345
00:13:24,502 --> 00:13:26,518
if someone showed up with a case

346
00:13:26,895 --> 00:13:29,846
of beer. And so, you know, we'd... I

347
00:13:29,846 --> 00:13:31,623
just didn't have the opportunity

348
00:13:32,414 --> 00:13:34,328
to to drink all that much. And so

349
00:13:34,408 --> 00:13:36,104
I did not. I mean, it was

350
00:13:36,721 --> 00:13:37,540
a rare

351
00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,427
occasion and and to be thoroughly enjoyed when

352
00:13:41,427 --> 00:13:41,927
someone

353
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,960
you know, knock the bottle or got some

354
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,339
alcohol. Yeah. I get it. So the circumstances

355
00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:50,648
were such that you Even if you had

356
00:13:50,648 --> 00:13:53,588
wanted to, the opportunity just didn't really present

357
00:13:53,588 --> 00:13:56,052
itself to any great degree until you got

358
00:13:56,052 --> 00:13:56,687
to college,

359
00:13:57,259 --> 00:13:59,407
what's interesting about the interviews I've been doing

360
00:13:59,407 --> 00:14:01,395
is I identify with so many different parts

361
00:14:01,395 --> 00:14:04,020
of people's stories, and I didn't really start.

362
00:14:04,354 --> 00:14:07,382
Drinking and using a marijuana until I graduated

363
00:14:07,382 --> 00:14:09,294
from high school and got to college, and

364
00:14:09,294 --> 00:14:10,967
then it was, you know, Katie bar the

365
00:14:10,967 --> 00:14:11,740
door, but

366
00:14:12,417 --> 00:14:15,764
I had exposure to marijuana soon after I

367
00:14:15,764 --> 00:14:17,040
had first started drinking.

368
00:14:18,156 --> 00:14:20,725
It sounds like you did too. The first

369
00:14:20,725 --> 00:14:22,964
time I spoke marijuana I was in my

370
00:14:22,964 --> 00:14:24,245
senior year in high school.

371
00:14:24,964 --> 00:14:26,804
And I was at a party where someone

372
00:14:26,804 --> 00:14:28,196
had it. And

373
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:30,104
I tried it and

374
00:14:30,478 --> 00:14:34,054
nothing happened. Absolutely. Nothing. Which and actually back

375
00:14:34,054 --> 00:14:36,221
back then, we used to call it smoking

376
00:14:36,221 --> 00:14:38,695
the rope. Yeah. Yeah and... Because literally, it

377
00:14:38,695 --> 00:14:41,648
was about 1 step above smoking rope.

378
00:14:43,258 --> 00:14:46,223
It wasn't until later on in college that

379
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,404
we got decent marijuana. It was all usually

380
00:14:49,461 --> 00:14:49,961
pretty

381
00:14:50,415 --> 00:14:51,233
very low.

382
00:14:51,543 --> 00:14:54,478
Yeah. And get it. You'd smoke, like, as

383
00:14:54,478 --> 00:14:56,223
much until your lungs burned and then you

384
00:14:56,223 --> 00:14:57,730
get a headache and you get hungry. And

385
00:14:57,730 --> 00:14:59,653
that was about it. Yeah. That's that's not

386
00:14:59,653 --> 00:15:01,244
a whole lot of fun. I was able

387
00:15:01,244 --> 00:15:04,529
to start with my older sister and her

388
00:15:04,586 --> 00:15:07,633
first husband Way way. Back then, and he

389
00:15:07,633 --> 00:15:11,249
was kind of an auto of marijuana, and

390
00:15:11,468 --> 00:15:13,706
hash. She always liked Hash. A lot of

391
00:15:13,706 --> 00:15:16,118
hash and So by the time I was

392
00:15:16,118 --> 00:15:18,915
18 19 going into college. I had some

393
00:15:18,915 --> 00:15:20,832
exposure to something a little bit better than

394
00:15:20,832 --> 00:15:23,090
rope. So you get to college and

395
00:15:23,563 --> 00:15:26,920
you get access to much more available

396
00:15:27,452 --> 00:15:29,675
marijuana and booze and other things like that.

397
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:32,135
Yeah. And we had a lot of hash.

398
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:34,862
Too. And Mh. I much preferred that.

399
00:15:35,820 --> 00:15:37,974
Alcohol was always there, and and for me,

400
00:15:38,532 --> 00:15:40,724
alcohol was like, an acc

401
00:15:41,103 --> 00:15:41,603
to

402
00:15:42,062 --> 00:15:44,619
marijuana. Mh. I was a legacy. I guess

403
00:15:44,619 --> 00:15:46,057
you... Could they called it in the day

404
00:15:46,057 --> 00:15:48,707
for a attorney alpha tall omega because my

405
00:15:48,707 --> 00:15:51,655
father had been 1 and my grandfather before

406
00:15:51,655 --> 00:15:53,248
him and of course they came out and

407
00:15:53,248 --> 00:15:55,877
wanted me to pledge. Mh. We all looked

408
00:15:55,877 --> 00:15:57,964
down at the... On the juice, because us

409
00:15:57,964 --> 00:16:01,080
hippie. Really? Yeah. That's what's so crazy about

410
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,917
being an alcoholic like because of all the

411
00:16:02,917 --> 00:16:04,855
things that I was concerned

412
00:16:05,410 --> 00:16:07,410
that might take me down because I knew

413
00:16:07,410 --> 00:16:10,129
to in drugs was. U. Dangers. I would

414
00:16:10,129 --> 00:16:12,529
never believed it was alcohol. And so I

415
00:16:12,529 --> 00:16:14,704
never pledged the f fertility because all they

416
00:16:14,704 --> 00:16:16,941
did was drink. Wow. In college, she thought

417
00:16:16,941 --> 00:16:18,539
that I didn't get drunk, but it was

418
00:16:18,539 --> 00:16:21,495
usually company to buy something else. And the

419
00:16:21,495 --> 00:16:23,842
idea of what only being able to use

420
00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:24,399
alcohols.

421
00:16:25,729 --> 00:16:27,321
To me. You know, that's not so different

422
00:16:27,321 --> 00:16:29,549
from my story too because the state University

423
00:16:29,708 --> 00:16:31,474
I went to had very, very act. Of

424
00:16:31,554 --> 00:16:34,271
Greek organizations, and I remember my friends who

425
00:16:34,271 --> 00:16:37,068
were who were drinkers, but not pot smokers,

426
00:16:37,947 --> 00:16:41,076
they all seem to pledge if But because

427
00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:43,548
I was more involved with pot, and the

428
00:16:43,548 --> 00:16:46,760
f at that time were heavily oriented towards

429
00:16:47,217 --> 00:16:48,594
beer and and other

430
00:16:48,971 --> 00:16:51,290
alcohol, like you, I... There was no real

431
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:53,909
strong attraction for me to to do that

432
00:16:53,909 --> 00:16:56,687
because I thought those guys are really pretty

433
00:16:56,687 --> 00:16:59,019
sloppy. And and they're mean to each other,

434
00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:01,419
because they're all drunk. And me, I'll enjoy

435
00:17:01,419 --> 00:17:03,340
my marijuana, but those guys aren't gonna do

436
00:17:03,340 --> 00:17:05,154
that. So I might as well not join

437
00:17:05,274 --> 00:17:06,708
what was that kinda your thinking as well?

438
00:17:07,026 --> 00:17:09,358
Yeah. And, you know, so I was in

439
00:17:09,575 --> 00:17:11,111
college from 69

440
00:17:11,168 --> 00:17:12,044
to 73.

441
00:17:12,363 --> 00:17:14,115
Back then, most of the f fatalities were...

442
00:17:14,449 --> 00:17:17,153
Still Yeah. We call straight guys. The drug

443
00:17:17,153 --> 00:17:18,926
scene was moving into f,

444
00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:21,153
but it hadn't moved in

445
00:17:21,464 --> 00:17:23,373
that, yeah as much as it eventually did.

446
00:17:23,612 --> 00:17:25,521
Right. Yeah. They were just strike ice, and

447
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,430
I didn't wanna be a straight. I didn't

448
00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:28,248
wanna be

449
00:17:28,717 --> 00:17:29,614
1 of the

450
00:17:29,987 --> 00:17:32,074
short hair, you know, drinking,

451
00:17:32,606 --> 00:17:34,829
you know, white shirt wearing kind guys. Yeah.

452
00:17:35,146 --> 00:17:36,892
How did you become a hippie?

453
00:17:37,463 --> 00:17:39,213
I think my influence there was that I

454
00:17:39,213 --> 00:17:41,996
had my father's side of the family lived

455
00:17:41,996 --> 00:17:42,735
in California.

456
00:17:43,348 --> 00:17:43,825
U.

457
00:17:44,302 --> 00:17:47,047
I loved everything. I... Had read about California,

458
00:17:47,663 --> 00:17:49,417
and the summer of love out here, which

459
00:17:49,417 --> 00:17:52,368
was 67 and the ate ash scene or

460
00:17:52,368 --> 00:17:54,122
really got me into it most was the

461
00:17:54,122 --> 00:17:54,622
music

462
00:17:55,014 --> 00:17:57,329
you know. Jimmy Hendrix was my favorite.

463
00:17:58,846 --> 00:18:00,224
And I liked

464
00:18:00,602 --> 00:18:02,219
I liked it all. And

465
00:18:04,685 --> 00:18:06,835
I remember jimmy me my favorite jimmy Hendrix

466
00:18:06,914 --> 00:18:09,303
Song was if 6 was resign, was just

467
00:18:09,303 --> 00:18:12,580
quite color conservative flashing down the street. Pointed

468
00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:13,080
me

469
00:18:13,612 --> 00:18:16,072
over my kind drop and die. You can't

470
00:18:16,072 --> 00:18:19,088
dress like me. Great. That's great. And that

471
00:18:19,088 --> 00:18:20,768
was it. Is it's like, that was your

472
00:18:20,768 --> 00:18:22,035
own personal hampton I got...

473
00:18:23,382 --> 00:18:25,442
That was my... Yeah. Yeah. Have my pure

474
00:18:25,521 --> 00:18:26,393
I'm gonna have a plate.

475
00:18:27,364 --> 00:18:27,864
Seriously.

476
00:18:28,483 --> 00:18:30,481
Oh my gosh. That's that's a make... Would

477
00:18:30,481 --> 00:18:32,159
did did you... Were you in a band

478
00:18:32,159 --> 00:18:33,598
or did you play any instruments at the

479
00:18:33,598 --> 00:18:35,675
time? Or were you just a listener? No.

480
00:18:35,915 --> 00:18:36,415
I've

481
00:18:36,968 --> 00:18:38,265
In fact, I've got

482
00:18:39,198 --> 00:18:40,176
1 of my

483
00:18:40,552 --> 00:18:43,579
son's guitars behind me and I am still

484
00:18:43,579 --> 00:18:45,625
freaking trying to play. I started to pitch

485
00:18:46,063 --> 00:18:48,217
I I started to try and learn the

486
00:18:48,217 --> 00:18:50,132
guitar when I was at 13.

487
00:18:51,408 --> 00:18:51,908
And

488
00:18:52,366 --> 00:18:54,927
I haven't never progressed even to being able

489
00:18:54,927 --> 00:18:55,802
to do a bar or.

490
00:18:56,916 --> 00:18:58,507
Because I play it for about 6 weeks

491
00:18:58,507 --> 00:18:59,835
and get frustrated. With it

492
00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,938
but no. I was never in a band.

493
00:19:02,335 --> 00:19:03,923
I was wanting to be... Any any of

494
00:19:03,923 --> 00:19:05,590
the people I knew who were hippie, and

495
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:07,416
I I guess I'm kind of... I was

496
00:19:07,828 --> 00:19:09,578
I was a late... Ladder stay. My older

497
00:19:09,578 --> 00:19:11,328
sister was much more a hippie than I

498
00:19:11,328 --> 00:19:13,397
was, and I kinda came in on the

499
00:19:13,397 --> 00:19:14,272
tail end of that.

500
00:19:14,844 --> 00:19:16,759
But I didn't cut my hair for several

501
00:19:16,759 --> 00:19:19,232
years, and those people who know me, know

502
00:19:19,232 --> 00:19:21,146
that my hair doesn't go down, but it

503
00:19:21,146 --> 00:19:21,705
goes out,

504
00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:24,037
to the sides. I had 1 those almost

505
00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:26,354
like an a when I was when I

506
00:19:26,354 --> 00:19:27,653
was in college. But

507
00:19:28,512 --> 00:19:29,950
it seems like a lot of the people

508
00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:31,240
who like that kind of music,

509
00:19:32,355 --> 00:19:34,505
they either taught themselves how to play and

510
00:19:34,505 --> 00:19:36,416
where bands or they were so stoned. They

511
00:19:36,416 --> 00:19:38,565
never got the ambition to do it and

512
00:19:38,565 --> 00:19:40,660
just enjoyed listening better. I guess I was

513
00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:41,380
1 of those guys.

514
00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:45,220
No. I always tried. I would love to

515
00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:46,980
see you without hair. I love hair like

516
00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:48,751
that. My hair was straight,

517
00:19:49,390 --> 00:19:51,465
parted in the middle, and I had it

518
00:19:51,465 --> 00:19:53,699
down. It went well past my shoulder. Oh,

519
00:19:53,779 --> 00:19:55,695
my gosh. Okay. So you were a assertive...

520
00:19:55,869 --> 00:19:58,349
5 hippie at that point. Yeah. How did

521
00:19:58,349 --> 00:20:00,589
you do in college? And in what ways

522
00:20:00,589 --> 00:20:03,150
did being a hippie help or hurt you?

523
00:20:03,549 --> 00:20:07,342
I did fabulous. In college. Really? I graduated

524
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:09,958
with A392

525
00:20:09,958 --> 00:20:13,087
my major. And for the my first 2

526
00:20:13,087 --> 00:20:15,546
and a half years, I carried a straight

527
00:20:15,546 --> 00:20:16,340
4 0 average.

528
00:20:16,895 --> 00:20:19,671
I was in the honors program in economics.

529
00:20:20,163 --> 00:20:21,515
You know, it started out when I first

530
00:20:21,515 --> 00:20:24,140
got there, everyone told me how card college

531
00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:26,900
was. And so my first term, I worked

532
00:20:27,019 --> 00:20:29,250
my ass off form study groups and everything

533
00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:31,321
and I got A40. Wow, and I did

534
00:20:31,321 --> 00:20:33,632
the same thing. The next term and got

535
00:20:33,632 --> 00:20:35,643
4 0, my and by the third term,

536
00:20:35,802 --> 00:20:36,921
which was the spring term,

537
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,876
I have back off a little bit, And

538
00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:41,155
I still gone a flu,

539
00:20:41,569 --> 00:20:43,722
And so for the rest of my college

540
00:20:43,722 --> 00:20:46,833
career, it was seeing out little work I

541
00:20:46,833 --> 00:20:49,146
could do is so get A40. And I

542
00:20:49,146 --> 00:20:51,161
mainly attribute my grades

543
00:20:51,713 --> 00:20:54,526
especially in the last couple years to Amp.

544
00:20:54,903 --> 00:20:57,717
Oh, okay. You know, I would miss class

545
00:20:57,775 --> 00:21:00,327
and then not do the assignments, and I

546
00:21:00,327 --> 00:21:01,259
was blessed with

547
00:21:01,698 --> 00:21:02,516
a temporary,

548
00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:04,508
kind of a transient

549
00:21:04,884 --> 00:21:05,681
photographic memory.

550
00:21:06,238 --> 00:21:07,911
And so I could go through the books

551
00:21:07,911 --> 00:21:10,062
and I could stay up nights in a

552
00:21:10,062 --> 00:21:10,301
row,

553
00:21:10,874 --> 00:21:12,863
longest as I stayed up was, like, for

554
00:21:12,942 --> 00:21:13,897
Monday to Friday.

555
00:21:14,932 --> 00:21:16,842
And just, you know, and then go in

556
00:21:16,842 --> 00:21:19,084
and take the test and I remember my

557
00:21:19,084 --> 00:21:21,309
got question because I would reproduce the,

558
00:21:22,422 --> 00:21:24,409
answers to the test. I would reproduce the

559
00:21:24,409 --> 00:21:25,601
section of the book came.

560
00:21:26,491 --> 00:21:26,809
Wow.

561
00:21:27,445 --> 00:21:29,036
And so... But but, you know, so I

562
00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:31,184
graduated in 392 and and the way being

563
00:21:31,184 --> 00:21:32,297
a hippie did it was...

564
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:34,246
You know, my father

565
00:21:34,941 --> 00:21:37,889
hated my long hair. My professors hated my

566
00:21:37,889 --> 00:21:38,526
long hair,

567
00:21:39,562 --> 00:21:41,487
but is like yeah and kiss my ass.

568
00:21:41,646 --> 00:21:43,316
You know. Yeah. I have A40.

569
00:21:43,793 --> 00:21:45,622
That's the way they... The that I did

570
00:21:45,622 --> 00:21:48,484
it. As defiance. They couldn't deny that could

571
00:21:48,484 --> 00:21:50,808
they. I... You're just the... Long haired to

572
00:21:50,808 --> 00:21:53,521
hip with with the smarts, I guess. Now

573
00:21:53,521 --> 00:21:55,219
you you mentioned amp,

574
00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:58,251
Okay. So were you a regular

575
00:21:58,644 --> 00:21:59,384
or daily,

576
00:22:00,083 --> 00:22:03,119
pot smoker as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And

577
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,436
it was mainly pot and Hash that we

578
00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:06,235
did every day.

579
00:22:06,888 --> 00:22:07,865
I did Psychedelics.

580
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,913
It's like when it was good. It was

581
00:22:09,913 --> 00:22:11,983
really, really, really good. I'm talking about, like

582
00:22:12,301 --> 00:22:13,257
Lsd. Yeah.

583
00:22:14,053 --> 00:22:14,292
Lsd,

584
00:22:14,944 --> 00:22:16,539
It was mainly Lsd. Mh

585
00:22:17,176 --> 00:22:20,206
I've done so psilocybin as whole other story,

586
00:22:20,764 --> 00:22:23,236
and Yellowstone southern parker of all things, and

587
00:22:23,968 --> 00:22:25,951
Pe, which I did in law school which

588
00:22:25,951 --> 00:22:28,887
is pretty interesting. But I didn't do a

589
00:22:28,887 --> 00:22:30,474
lot of them. I think you have to

590
00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:32,952
have a very strong kind of ego in

591
00:22:32,952 --> 00:22:35,019
mind. Mh. He'd be able to go through

592
00:22:35,019 --> 00:22:36,450
that and not lose it and 1 of

593
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:38,755
my friends did. He got to doing it

594
00:22:38,755 --> 00:22:40,835
very frequently and it was just just tearing

595
00:22:40,835 --> 00:22:43,054
them up. So I guess I did Lsd

596
00:22:43,054 --> 00:22:43,554
maybe

597
00:22:44,163 --> 00:22:46,937
15 plus times, maybe? I never did Lsd.

598
00:22:47,096 --> 00:22:49,263
I never did any kinda Iv drug. A

599
00:22:49,263 --> 00:22:50,941
number of my friends were doing it. And

600
00:22:50,941 --> 00:22:53,018
whenever it was offered, I turned it down

601
00:22:53,018 --> 00:22:54,297
because I didn't know whether I was 1

602
00:22:54,297 --> 00:22:55,815
of those type of people who could handle

603
00:22:55,815 --> 00:22:58,064
it, But did you ever have in later

604
00:22:58,064 --> 00:23:00,935
years those flashbacks that people talk about from

605
00:23:00,935 --> 00:23:03,407
the Lsd? No. You know, I was lucky.

606
00:23:04,045 --> 00:23:05,321
And that's all it was I think it

607
00:23:05,321 --> 00:23:07,427
was luck. I never had flashbacks.

608
00:23:07,879 --> 00:23:10,204
I never had any kind of

609
00:23:10,735 --> 00:23:11,529
bad trip.

610
00:23:12,163 --> 00:23:14,226
I had some trips were better than others.

611
00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:17,746
But never had a a bad trip at

612
00:23:17,746 --> 00:23:19,920
all. Honestly, I had some

613
00:23:20,535 --> 00:23:21,832
fabulous experiences,

614
00:23:22,224 --> 00:23:24,781
Yeah. The time in Yellowstone, I mentioned,

615
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,377
I did Me went the march on the

616
00:23:28,536 --> 00:23:29,016
Washington.

617
00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:32,710
In 19 71, the V w,

618
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:35,190
and there's 200000

619
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:36,710
hippie in the Washington Dc.

620
00:23:37,364 --> 00:23:39,518
So, I mean, honestly, I don't regret any

621
00:23:39,518 --> 00:23:41,671
of the drugs I did. I marijuana a

622
00:23:41,671 --> 00:23:43,665
little bit that I did it so often

623
00:23:43,665 --> 00:23:45,101
because I've missed out on a lot of

624
00:23:45,101 --> 00:23:48,067
things that I could have done. Yeah. I

625
00:23:48,067 --> 00:23:51,177
find that marijuana kinda messed with my decision

626
00:23:51,177 --> 00:23:53,032
making to a certain extent because

627
00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:55,403
I was so comfortable not making decisions that

628
00:23:55,403 --> 00:23:57,333
when I had to make them. I made

629
00:23:57,333 --> 00:23:59,568
them probably based on some of the wrong

630
00:23:59,568 --> 00:24:00,925
information. I mean, I think I got through

631
00:24:00,925 --> 00:24:02,063
life okay as

632
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,289
despite all that, but it's it's interesting that

633
00:24:05,489 --> 00:24:06,389
that your

634
00:24:06,848 --> 00:24:08,467
memories of the

635
00:24:09,245 --> 00:24:11,882
Lsd or the mushrooms or the Pe or

636
00:24:11,882 --> 00:24:14,255
or marijuana even for that matter is not

637
00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:17,077
1 that is all that negative. No. The

638
00:24:17,077 --> 00:24:18,906
only negative I had, like, just as as

639
00:24:18,906 --> 00:24:22,245
an example, Penn state had all these fabulous

640
00:24:22,245 --> 00:24:23,358
half living facilities.

641
00:24:24,169 --> 00:24:27,125
That I never really avail myself off. Yeah.

642
00:24:27,844 --> 00:24:30,081
They had lots of other kind of extra

643
00:24:30,081 --> 00:24:30,581
extracurricular

644
00:24:31,134 --> 00:24:33,292
things that you could do that Yeah. Would

645
00:24:33,292 --> 00:24:35,450
have been fun. But, you know, I was

646
00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:37,367
getting stoned to listening to music. And you

647
00:24:37,367 --> 00:24:39,525
were still getting good grades. So you started

648
00:24:39,525 --> 00:24:41,771
out... Kinda early on, let's say at the

649
00:24:41,771 --> 00:24:44,958
age of 18 as a functional drug user,

650
00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,198
alcohol user without too many negative consequences then.

651
00:24:49,517 --> 00:24:51,431
No. I didn't really have any. You know,

652
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:54,462
dealt drugs. Oh, you did. Oh, yeah. Mainly

653
00:24:54,462 --> 00:24:55,419
as a way to

654
00:24:56,137 --> 00:24:56,855
offset the cost.

655
00:24:57,508 --> 00:24:58,386
Of my own,

656
00:24:58,865 --> 00:25:01,258
things. And, you know, also because it was

657
00:25:01,258 --> 00:25:03,971
a counter thing to do was before it

658
00:25:03,971 --> 00:25:04,471
became

659
00:25:04,863 --> 00:25:07,251
what was turning into a business. Yeah. By

660
00:25:07,251 --> 00:25:09,321
the end of my time there. U. But

661
00:25:09,321 --> 00:25:11,891
before it was just, like, I dealt drugs

662
00:25:12,107 --> 00:25:12,607
because

663
00:25:12,999 --> 00:25:15,236
I could sell some and then turn on

664
00:25:15,236 --> 00:25:17,553
all of my friends. So you went from

665
00:25:17,632 --> 00:25:20,202
Penn state onto to law school. Did you

666
00:25:20,202 --> 00:25:22,190
have the same kind of experience in law

667
00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:23,859
school where you were able to sail through

668
00:25:23,859 --> 00:25:26,245
it without too much trouble? Yeah. I still

669
00:25:26,245 --> 00:25:26,983
used Amp

670
00:25:27,358 --> 00:25:30,231
study. I did not get A40 in law

671
00:25:30,231 --> 00:25:32,692
school because law School was... I found it

672
00:25:32,692 --> 00:25:35,470
to be several degrees harder than undergrad, but

673
00:25:35,628 --> 00:25:36,581
I did well. U.

674
00:25:37,231 --> 00:25:38,819
You know, I I still had the same

675
00:25:38,819 --> 00:25:39,216
memory.

676
00:25:39,772 --> 00:25:42,154
Share with me your recollection, Jim, if you

677
00:25:42,154 --> 00:25:44,775
would from getting out of law school to

678
00:25:44,775 --> 00:25:45,807
the point at which...

679
00:25:46,458 --> 00:25:49,028
You first noticed that you had a problem

680
00:25:49,244 --> 00:25:52,587
either with alcohol or drugs and alcohol. I

681
00:25:52,587 --> 00:25:55,134
started to turn to alcohol, a lot more

682
00:25:55,134 --> 00:25:55,850
in law school.

683
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,613
I had been engaged to be married to

684
00:25:59,613 --> 00:26:01,528
this girl that I had gone out within

685
00:26:01,528 --> 00:26:02,165
in college.

686
00:26:03,043 --> 00:26:05,730
And she broke off that engagement the summer

687
00:26:05,848 --> 00:26:07,753
prior to my going to law school. Mh.

688
00:26:07,991 --> 00:26:09,817
And so I was down there in this

689
00:26:09,817 --> 00:26:12,357
apartment that we had gotten or I got

690
00:26:12,357 --> 00:26:14,596
for both of us prior and I it

691
00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:16,902
was far away from the loss. It's loud

692
00:26:16,902 --> 00:26:20,320
and bethesda. Mh. Nice apartment, but funky funky

693
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:20,638
area.

694
00:26:21,369 --> 00:26:22,669
And so I was

695
00:26:23,048 --> 00:26:26,324
outside of the student kind of activity in

696
00:26:26,324 --> 00:26:30,260
law school, plus my access to drugs had

697
00:26:30,892 --> 00:26:32,796
diminished because I was in a new environment.

698
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:35,175
I'd I didn't know a lot of people.

699
00:26:35,731 --> 00:26:38,531
And also, I didn't have any

700
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,759
I didn't have many pos and didn't have

701
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:41,400
any friends.

702
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,380
And so that's when I started to drink

703
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,409
with a purpose. And I remember I buy

704
00:26:47,409 --> 00:26:48,920
a a bottle whiskey,

705
00:26:49,397 --> 00:26:51,307
and I used to do that, drink that

706
00:26:51,307 --> 00:26:52,659
at night and it was just me and

707
00:26:52,659 --> 00:26:54,988
my dog and this breakup up, hit me

708
00:26:54,988 --> 00:26:57,146
and I was suffering because of that. The

709
00:26:57,146 --> 00:27:00,183
purpose of drinking there was to drown the

710
00:27:00,183 --> 00:27:00,582
feelings?

711
00:27:01,142 --> 00:27:03,633
Yeah. Kinda and so I could sleep you

712
00:27:03,633 --> 00:27:06,018
know, and and stuff like that. You know,

713
00:27:06,176 --> 00:27:08,641
that... That's when I really started strength. Mh.

714
00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,740
Was was in law school, And it became

715
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,440
an ending in itself rather than an adjunct

716
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,799
to getting higher marijuana. And, you know, most

717
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:20,240
of the folks in law school,

718
00:27:21,531 --> 00:27:23,843
they smoke marijuana, but took me a while

719
00:27:23,843 --> 00:27:26,394
to have any interaction with them. Mh. And

720
00:27:26,394 --> 00:27:27,989
most of them thought I was an asshole

721
00:27:27,989 --> 00:27:28,946
because of the way I dressed.

722
00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:31,277
I, you know, I came in. This was

723
00:27:31,277 --> 00:27:33,355
kind of the David Bowie phase. Oh, yeah.

724
00:27:33,595 --> 00:27:36,093
I showed up in platform sneakers

725
00:27:36,472 --> 00:27:39,705
platform foot platform sandals and, oh and span

726
00:27:39,765 --> 00:27:43,045
socks and this really long hair. U. And

727
00:27:43,125 --> 00:27:45,605
I I had this hundred pound off that

728
00:27:45,765 --> 00:27:46,644
I take the class.

729
00:27:47,285 --> 00:27:49,370
And know, and, again, I was still in

730
00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:51,517
this thing, Like, you know, these these guys

731
00:27:51,517 --> 00:27:53,346
had all gotten there haircut from law school.

732
00:27:53,664 --> 00:27:55,811
Sure. And they're in their little ties and

733
00:27:55,811 --> 00:27:57,561
stuff. And I was like, fuck. Yeah. Yeah.

734
00:27:57,894 --> 00:27:59,411
You're... All you if you think you're more

735
00:27:59,411 --> 00:28:01,565
than a number or you're mistaken? Yeah. So

736
00:28:01,565 --> 00:28:04,997
you had ignition so to speak. Oh, no

737
00:28:04,997 --> 00:28:07,405
more like the find. But defiance. Okay. But

738
00:28:07,484 --> 00:28:09,159
I've met a couple guys in in law

739
00:28:09,159 --> 00:28:11,153
school that turned out to me my best

740
00:28:11,153 --> 00:28:13,066
friends but they love to drink too. I

741
00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:14,980
see. So that's where I really started.

742
00:28:15,474 --> 00:28:17,092
You mentioned amp,

743
00:28:17,789 --> 00:28:19,167
were you doing as many

744
00:28:19,785 --> 00:28:22,260
and law schools you did in undergrad and

745
00:28:22,260 --> 00:28:24,734
how did they interact with your drinking at?

746
00:28:24,909 --> 00:28:27,783
That point. I didn't have any real compulsory

747
00:28:27,783 --> 00:28:28,523
to drink

748
00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:29,779
at that time.

749
00:28:30,497 --> 00:28:32,972
If it was in time for testing,

750
00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:36,200
you know. At I would do the in

751
00:28:36,338 --> 00:28:38,970
and I would study and I wouldn't drink

752
00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:41,363
until after the test were over. And so

753
00:28:41,443 --> 00:28:44,130
I didn't do as many, but that's because

754
00:28:44,249 --> 00:28:45,998
Mh. You know, we were on a master

755
00:28:45,998 --> 00:28:48,223
system instead of a term system. So we

756
00:28:48,223 --> 00:28:51,006
only had, you know, 2 sets of midterms

757
00:28:51,006 --> 00:28:53,797
and final ways. Mh a year 73. Mh.

758
00:28:54,035 --> 00:28:56,650
So that was really the only difference. So

759
00:28:56,650 --> 00:28:58,234
is it safe to say that your drug

760
00:28:58,234 --> 00:29:00,898
use was... Going down while your

761
00:29:01,277 --> 00:29:03,594
alcohol use was going up. Big time. Yeah.

762
00:29:03,754 --> 00:29:06,390
Mh. Yeah. We still would smoke. Mh. When

763
00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:08,900
we could. But lot of the the consequences

764
00:29:09,277 --> 00:29:09,777
of

765
00:29:10,313 --> 00:29:12,545
being caught with marijuana when you're in law

766
00:29:12,545 --> 00:29:15,256
school had had impressed itself from all of

767
00:29:15,256 --> 00:29:17,581
us. Me less so than others. But, you

768
00:29:17,581 --> 00:29:20,471
know, I still smoke and I still kinda

769
00:29:20,608 --> 00:29:22,679
preferred that. But I found that I didn't

770
00:29:22,679 --> 00:29:24,932
prefer smoking alone because That won't lead

771
00:29:25,243 --> 00:29:28,344
me to bad thoughts about my breakup and

772
00:29:28,344 --> 00:29:30,252
stuff like that. So you you found this

773
00:29:30,252 --> 00:29:32,160
group of guys that you could hang with

774
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,607
while you were... Smoking,

775
00:29:34,164 --> 00:29:37,585
marijuana and drinking at that point. How did

776
00:29:37,585 --> 00:29:40,450
that drinking then progress or follow you out

777
00:29:40,450 --> 00:29:42,934
of law school? And what were your early

778
00:29:42,934 --> 00:29:45,575
years like with that in your life. You

779
00:29:45,575 --> 00:29:48,055
know, by the third year in law school

780
00:29:48,134 --> 00:29:50,394
While I was drinking a long. And

781
00:29:51,188 --> 00:29:54,378
It still wasn't affecting my academic performance, but

782
00:29:54,538 --> 00:29:56,692
I dropped out a term of law school.

783
00:29:58,127 --> 00:29:59,802
And I was kinda burned out just from

784
00:29:59,802 --> 00:30:00,701
taking tests

785
00:30:01,092 --> 00:30:03,399
and I work for a moving company that

786
00:30:03,399 --> 00:30:06,104
moves Xerox machines. Wow. And I don't know

787
00:30:06,104 --> 00:30:07,456
quite how I found this job.

788
00:30:08,109 --> 00:30:10,906
I don't remember. But I remember I cleared

789
00:30:10,906 --> 00:30:13,303
99 dollars a week. You know, you know,

790
00:30:13,463 --> 00:30:15,700
these guys are all hard part too. So

791
00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:16,180
I found...

792
00:30:16,911 --> 00:30:19,292
Another group of younger guys. Mh.

793
00:30:19,848 --> 00:30:22,387
And including another guy that became... Like, I

794
00:30:22,387 --> 00:30:24,387
call on my second best friend, You know.

795
00:30:24,783 --> 00:30:26,291
We just drank and drank a drank. And

796
00:30:26,370 --> 00:30:27,560
I also met my

797
00:30:28,354 --> 00:30:30,337
first wife when I was in law school.

798
00:30:30,575 --> 00:30:31,631
U. And

799
00:30:32,814 --> 00:30:33,793
you know, she

800
00:30:34,171 --> 00:30:37,284
wasn't a part nearly like me, you know,

801
00:30:37,604 --> 00:30:40,238
that took my mind off my first girlfriend.

802
00:30:40,877 --> 00:30:41,835
The college girlfriend friend,

803
00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:44,090
But, yeah, It was... Yeah, I would say

804
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:45,850
that by the time I was in my

805
00:30:45,850 --> 00:30:48,410
third year of law school, my decision making

806
00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:50,250
about every aspect of my life.

807
00:30:50,824 --> 00:30:52,600
Other than academic performance

808
00:30:53,057 --> 00:30:55,689
was being beginning to be affected by alcohol.

809
00:30:55,848 --> 00:30:57,284
Yeah. I found that to be the case

810
00:30:57,284 --> 00:30:58,799
as well. It seemed like towards the end

811
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:02,502
of my college years. The drinking and the

812
00:31:02,639 --> 00:31:05,107
use of marijuana and other drugs at that

813
00:31:05,107 --> 00:31:06,938
time. They affected it to the point that

814
00:31:06,938 --> 00:31:08,825
all I wanted to do was get out

815
00:31:08,944 --> 00:31:10,779
earn enough money to be able to continue

816
00:31:10,779 --> 00:31:11,837
to do that

817
00:31:12,375 --> 00:31:16,019
without any kind of interference. So you went

818
00:31:16,218 --> 00:31:18,681
for your final year in law school, and

819
00:31:18,681 --> 00:31:20,429
then you sat for the bar after that?

820
00:31:21,064 --> 00:31:23,620
Yeah. I took the bar exam. You know,

821
00:31:24,650 --> 00:31:27,289
I had been so out of the mainstream

822
00:31:27,582 --> 00:31:29,959
at law school. I I think I thought

823
00:31:29,959 --> 00:31:32,922
that, someone would then just kinda Mh. Call

824
00:31:32,922 --> 00:31:34,597
me or knock on my door and say,

825
00:31:34,757 --> 00:31:37,330
look, we just thought... We understand you graduated

826
00:31:37,388 --> 00:31:39,143
from George Tom and we'd like to hire

827
00:31:39,143 --> 00:31:40,180
you and pay you a fortune.

828
00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:44,034
So I missed out on the whole, wow

829
00:31:44,169 --> 00:31:44,987
interview process.

830
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,461
Wow, everyone that knew what they were doing

831
00:31:48,461 --> 00:31:50,868
and had a whole. All these job interviews.

832
00:31:51,427 --> 00:31:53,425
But I didn't even have 1. I got

833
00:31:53,425 --> 00:31:55,263
my first job out of law school off

834
00:31:55,263 --> 00:31:57,741
a a, index card that was posted on

835
00:31:57,741 --> 00:31:58,540
a bulletin board,

836
00:31:59,112 --> 00:32:00,618
and it turned out to be a great

837
00:32:00,618 --> 00:32:00,855
job.

838
00:32:02,203 --> 00:32:02,441
But

839
00:32:03,233 --> 00:32:05,531
I went to work for an energy consulting

840
00:32:05,531 --> 00:32:05,769
firm.

841
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:09,700
As a as an assistant general counsel. Man

842
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:11,220
it was a good job. Is that where

843
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:13,700
you first started specializing in that kind of

844
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:14,019
law?

845
00:32:14,753 --> 00:32:14,992
Yeah.

846
00:32:15,790 --> 00:32:18,022
I I took oil own gas law. George

847
00:32:18,181 --> 00:32:20,812
Chan only offered 1 loan gas law course.

848
00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:23,638
And I liked it. And

849
00:32:24,093 --> 00:32:26,957
I I worked with this energy consulting firm,

850
00:32:27,116 --> 00:32:29,900
and that was right when they had oil

851
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,258
price regulations. Oh, yeah. Us back at nixon

852
00:32:33,258 --> 00:32:36,204
time and inflation was crazy. And so he

853
00:32:36,204 --> 00:32:37,898
froze prices nationwide,

854
00:32:38,831 --> 00:32:41,079
and then they found out r off that

855
00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:44,200
the driving factor and inflation was energy prices.

856
00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:47,339
And so what began as a temporary program

857
00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:49,579
turned into a permanent 1 and

858
00:32:49,974 --> 00:32:50,873
every facet

859
00:32:51,410 --> 00:32:54,122
petroleum prices from crude oil all the way

860
00:32:54,122 --> 00:32:56,753
up through product, you know, gasoline Right. Price

861
00:32:56,753 --> 00:32:59,567
price controlled. And there's says complex

862
00:33:00,912 --> 00:33:02,763
administrative nonsense that was

863
00:33:03,137 --> 00:33:05,283
around all that, and I I worked on

864
00:33:05,283 --> 00:33:08,541
that, and wow. We're that. And, you know,

865
00:33:09,034 --> 00:33:10,872
I liked it. So you kinda became a

866
00:33:10,872 --> 00:33:12,549
specialist from that experience?

867
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:15,346
Did that specialty kind of follow you throughout

868
00:33:15,346 --> 00:33:16,225
your your career?

869
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:19,034
Yeah. So, you know, when I finally moved

870
00:33:19,034 --> 00:33:19,752
to Houston,

871
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:23,583
consulting firm kind of imp. Yeah And I

872
00:33:23,583 --> 00:33:24,700
went to work with...

873
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:28,844
Another large blue stocking type normal law firm.

874
00:33:29,399 --> 00:33:31,780
I hated them, and they hated me. And

875
00:33:32,257 --> 00:33:33,606
why? Why did they hate you?

876
00:33:34,339 --> 00:33:34,659
Because...

877
00:33:35,458 --> 00:33:36,657
Because I was working.

878
00:33:38,974 --> 00:33:40,013
Why weren't you working?

879
00:33:40,653 --> 00:33:42,331
I it's gotta be a thread in here

880
00:33:42,331 --> 00:33:43,710
somewhere because I was

881
00:33:44,024 --> 00:33:46,757
I was drinking most of the time, and,

882
00:33:47,294 --> 00:33:49,367
you know, we had tried to start a,

883
00:33:50,085 --> 00:33:52,718
energy practice of another friend of mine. He

884
00:33:52,718 --> 00:33:55,197
had formed a law offer and. I work

885
00:33:55,197 --> 00:33:56,863
to work with famine and then we merged,

886
00:33:57,576 --> 00:33:58,076
and

887
00:33:59,084 --> 00:34:01,860
crude oil price control. We're getting phased out

888
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:04,176
offer And so my whole... You know, all

889
00:34:04,176 --> 00:34:07,112
this knowledge that I have basically useless. You

890
00:34:07,112 --> 00:34:10,150
know, we couldn't generate... This was not an

891
00:34:10,150 --> 00:34:12,309
energy law firm. This was Yeah. East Coast

892
00:34:12,309 --> 00:34:13,449
law firm, and,

893
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:16,949
you know, we couldn't generate any legal business.

894
00:34:17,523 --> 00:34:19,906
And so they had me moved to... They

895
00:34:19,906 --> 00:34:20,803
were a federal

896
00:34:21,177 --> 00:34:23,162
communications law firm, and so they had... Me

897
00:34:23,162 --> 00:34:24,751
try to move to this kind of immediate

898
00:34:24,751 --> 00:34:25,148
practice.

899
00:34:26,117 --> 00:34:28,425
Which I didn't, you know, I. I'd never

900
00:34:28,425 --> 00:34:29,062
really got.

901
00:34:29,619 --> 00:34:31,847
This is an example. Every Friday they would

902
00:34:31,847 --> 00:34:32,802
have a happy hour.

903
00:34:33,614 --> 00:34:36,014
And it would be held in this rich

904
00:34:36,014 --> 00:34:36,514
panel

905
00:34:37,054 --> 00:34:37,554
library,

906
00:34:38,335 --> 00:34:39,934
and there'd be the bar set up and

907
00:34:39,934 --> 00:34:41,454
the lawyer are sitting around talking,

908
00:34:41,947 --> 00:34:44,094
and all the secretaries would be having their

909
00:34:44,094 --> 00:34:46,319
own happy hour and the little lunch flowers

910
00:34:46,319 --> 00:34:46,955
in the lunch.

911
00:34:47,988 --> 00:34:49,913
After being in the panels, study or...

912
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:52,466
Yeah. I well, I would go go there

913
00:34:52,466 --> 00:34:53,823
and pour my drink and go to the

914
00:34:53,823 --> 00:34:55,498
lunch. You must have been a popular guy.

915
00:34:56,296 --> 00:34:57,768
Oh, yeah. And

916
00:34:58,226 --> 00:34:59,661
I I'd go out for,

917
00:35:00,539 --> 00:35:02,852
drink heavily at lunch, you know, stuff like

918
00:35:02,852 --> 00:35:04,208
that. And it was getting to be a

919
00:35:04,208 --> 00:35:06,542
real problem by that time. And

920
00:35:07,095 --> 00:35:09,335
you know, I got married by that time

921
00:35:09,414 --> 00:35:11,095
And Mh. My son was born,

922
00:35:11,494 --> 00:35:11,994
and,

923
00:35:12,775 --> 00:35:14,295
you know, so I lost my job,

924
00:35:14,855 --> 00:35:15,355
and

925
00:35:15,735 --> 00:35:16,394
he was,

926
00:35:16,708 --> 00:35:17,346
show an infants.

927
00:35:18,460 --> 00:35:19,495
We'll be right back.

928
00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:22,441
My friends, if you're enjoying listening to my

929
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930
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953
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And we're back.

965
00:36:38,186 --> 00:36:40,492
You lost your job over the drinking and

966
00:36:40,492 --> 00:36:41,527
over the behavior,

967
00:36:42,019 --> 00:36:44,488
at at that time. Did anybody confront you

968
00:36:44,488 --> 00:36:46,320
with that? Or or did you get an

969
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,187
inkling that there was some connection between all

970
00:36:49,187 --> 00:36:51,752
that going on and you're drinking at No.

971
00:36:52,790 --> 00:36:55,583
I think honestly, if we had been able

972
00:36:55,583 --> 00:36:58,776
to pull in business and been able to

973
00:36:58,776 --> 00:37:00,380
pay for us. Themselves they would have cared.

974
00:37:00,618 --> 00:37:02,680
Yeah. Because I was always able to pretty

975
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,901
much put in the hours even as I

976
00:37:04,901 --> 00:37:07,414
was coming into the Aa and 96 phelps

977
00:37:07,771 --> 00:37:09,676
I was still able to. Pulling in the

978
00:37:09,676 --> 00:37:12,929
hours. And be a profitable person. So when

979
00:37:12,929 --> 00:37:14,357
you say pulling in the hours, you're talking

980
00:37:14,357 --> 00:37:16,996
about billable hours with clients who are willing

981
00:37:16,996 --> 00:37:18,353
to pay you for the work that you're

982
00:37:18,353 --> 00:37:21,065
doing. Right. What I couldn't do is obtain

983
00:37:21,065 --> 00:37:24,350
clients. Okay. And that's all. Another thing. They

984
00:37:24,350 --> 00:37:26,503
never tell you about law school is that,

985
00:37:26,662 --> 00:37:28,575
you know, people just don't wander her around

986
00:37:28,575 --> 00:37:30,328
and think my. You know? There's this guy

987
00:37:30,328 --> 00:37:31,619
named Jim. And I think I'll call them

988
00:37:31,619 --> 00:37:33,292
and pay them 300 dollars an hour to

989
00:37:33,292 --> 00:37:35,762
do something. The marketing of of that is

990
00:37:35,762 --> 00:37:38,869
the challenges into Yeah. So 1 of my

991
00:37:38,869 --> 00:37:41,235
guess on the show who also was a

992
00:37:41,354 --> 00:37:43,421
ernie suggested that 1 of the reasons why

993
00:37:43,421 --> 00:37:45,488
there seemed to be a lot of alcoholism

994
00:37:45,488 --> 00:37:46,545
within that particular

995
00:37:46,999 --> 00:37:49,384
profession is because being a lawyer tends to

996
00:37:49,384 --> 00:37:52,660
be a very all assuming job that you're

997
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:55,365
working very, very long hours and weekends and

998
00:37:55,365 --> 00:37:57,434
and all that sort of stuff. So the

999
00:37:57,434 --> 00:37:59,343
drink may be the only real release that

1000
00:37:59,343 --> 00:38:01,693
you have and so it tends to be

1001
00:38:01,753 --> 00:38:03,671
overdo. Is that a reasonable statement or did

1002
00:38:03,671 --> 00:38:04,869
you find something different?

1003
00:38:05,668 --> 00:38:07,687
You know, I think that's probably a reasonable

1004
00:38:07,746 --> 00:38:09,445
statement, I can say that

1005
00:38:09,759 --> 00:38:10,499
I was

1006
00:38:11,037 --> 00:38:12,736
on the way there

1007
00:38:13,195 --> 00:38:15,591
before I got it became an attorney. I

1008
00:38:15,591 --> 00:38:18,263
get it. Okay. You know, I was already

1009
00:38:18,561 --> 00:38:22,074
experiencing horrible hangover and things like that. And

1010
00:38:22,233 --> 00:38:24,708
I remember I I spent a summer a

1011
00:38:24,708 --> 00:38:26,599
while in Law school. I spent a summer

1012
00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:29,898
working for a car and I would roll

1013
00:38:29,898 --> 00:38:30,398
in

1014
00:38:30,931 --> 00:38:32,044
so hung over,

1015
00:38:32,759 --> 00:38:35,000
and I would kind of say I gotta

1016
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,692
go to the library and I'd go

1017
00:38:37,066 --> 00:38:39,712
across the capital to the senate office building

1018
00:38:40,166 --> 00:38:41,676
into their reading room in Pass.

1019
00:38:42,088 --> 00:38:44,315
No, my And, you know, stuff like that.

1020
00:38:44,713 --> 00:38:47,418
But, you know, wow there, I did good

1021
00:38:47,418 --> 00:38:50,080
enough work that I turned a. 1 month

1022
00:38:50,772 --> 00:38:53,951
internship into all all all summer. So in

1023
00:38:53,951 --> 00:38:54,689
many aspects,

1024
00:38:55,143 --> 00:38:56,812
like, a number of other guests I've had

1025
00:38:56,812 --> 00:38:59,294
on the show, you were a functional drinker.

1026
00:39:00,090 --> 00:39:03,516
Would you have labeled yourself an alcoholic, looking

1027
00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:05,428
back now at where you were then? Would

1028
00:39:05,428 --> 00:39:07,181
you say you were an alcoholic at that

1029
00:39:07,181 --> 00:39:09,817
point? Yes. Knowing what I know now back

1030
00:39:09,817 --> 00:39:12,197
then, I think I had an inkling that

1031
00:39:12,197 --> 00:39:14,182
I was a little different. U. I used

1032
00:39:14,182 --> 00:39:15,705
to go out with a girl. And she

1033
00:39:15,705 --> 00:39:17,690
was a registered nurse, and she's the first

1034
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:19,358
1 that said she thought I was now

1035
00:39:19,358 --> 00:39:21,264
alcohol. How many years was that before you

1036
00:39:21,264 --> 00:39:23,193
actually came into Aa. Probably

1037
00:39:24,122 --> 00:39:27,154
about... 15. So somebody who you knew and

1038
00:39:27,154 --> 00:39:28,368
and let's say trusted

1039
00:39:28,820 --> 00:39:31,599
suggested the problem that you already had and

1040
00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:33,266
gave it a name. How did you react?

1041
00:39:33,439 --> 00:39:35,114
To that. What did you think about her

1042
00:39:35,114 --> 00:39:37,266
saying that and about the fact that you

1043
00:39:37,266 --> 00:39:39,498
might be an alcoholic? Well, it was all...

1044
00:39:39,817 --> 00:39:42,184
At first, III didn't believe I didn't to

1045
00:39:42,305 --> 00:39:43,585
Yeah. I was ind.

1046
00:39:44,385 --> 00:39:46,305
So your friend told you this,

1047
00:39:46,785 --> 00:39:49,184
things were going on in the job that

1048
00:39:49,184 --> 00:39:52,239
might have given you, An inkling of the

1049
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,400
path that you were headed down. So you

1050
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,760
headed down that path anyway?

1051
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,239
Yeah. III

1052
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,107
got my first. Well, actually my only. UTI

1053
00:40:03,107 --> 00:40:05,650
say. At about that time. It was... I

1054
00:40:05,650 --> 00:40:07,239
got put in the back of a patty

1055
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:07,849
wagon and

1056
00:40:08,368 --> 00:40:09,883
and the bad part of it was as

1057
00:40:10,043 --> 00:40:12,036
I had probably a little wonder a half

1058
00:40:12,036 --> 00:40:14,508
an hour there marijuana in my pocket. I

1059
00:40:14,508 --> 00:40:16,741
was, you know, taken down to the station,

1060
00:40:18,034 --> 00:40:20,275
And I had tried to develop this way

1061
00:40:20,275 --> 00:40:22,594
of getting out of handcuffs. And so I

1062
00:40:22,594 --> 00:40:24,195
was in the back of the patty wagon

1063
00:40:24,195 --> 00:40:25,875
with this guy that was passed out.

1064
00:40:26,607 --> 00:40:28,913
And I could see my whole brewery going

1065
00:40:28,913 --> 00:40:31,298
down the drain with this marijuana. And so

1066
00:40:31,458 --> 00:40:33,445
I was trying to... Almost had the... I

1067
00:40:33,445 --> 00:40:34,797
was gonna throw it on the floor and

1068
00:40:34,797 --> 00:40:35,831
and blame it on him.

1069
00:40:36,963 --> 00:40:38,961
And they saw me moving and looked me

1070
00:40:38,961 --> 00:40:41,038
out and they pat me down and the

1071
00:40:41,038 --> 00:40:43,755
guy felt it and he squeezed the bag.

1072
00:40:44,644 --> 00:40:46,630
And didn't do anything. And then I got

1073
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:49,332
to the station, and the arresting officer was

1074
00:40:49,332 --> 00:40:51,954
there and instead of being upset I was...

1075
00:40:52,844 --> 00:40:54,599
I'm sure I was over the D limit,

1076
00:40:54,758 --> 00:40:56,454
but I was completely lucid

1077
00:40:56,992 --> 00:40:59,065
and tried to be as pleasant as I

1078
00:40:59,065 --> 00:41:00,581
could and talk to him, and I told

1079
00:41:00,581 --> 00:41:02,596
him it was my bachelor party

1080
00:41:03,146 --> 00:41:03,703
evening which,

1081
00:41:04,577 --> 00:41:06,247
it wasn't, but that's what I told him.

1082
00:41:06,644 --> 00:41:09,609
And so somehow, I've managed to avoid the

1083
00:41:09,745 --> 00:41:10,245
general.

1084
00:41:11,018 --> 00:41:12,051
They give everybody. Wow.

1085
00:41:12,623 --> 00:41:15,016
And and so I... That was that, and

1086
00:41:15,016 --> 00:41:17,590
they back then, they put you into a

1087
00:41:17,648 --> 00:41:19,563
diversion program where Had to go to, like,

1088
00:41:19,643 --> 00:41:22,928
an alcohol awareness class. I'd say for 6

1089
00:41:22,928 --> 00:41:26,759
weeks or something. So you dodged a career

1090
00:41:26,759 --> 00:41:29,791
ending bullet with the guy who checked your

1091
00:41:29,791 --> 00:41:32,350
pockets and... Squeeze the the pot and did

1092
00:41:32,350 --> 00:41:34,414
nothing. Right. And you were able to get

1093
00:41:34,414 --> 00:41:36,636
through that by being a pretty nice guy

1094
00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:38,462
at the station so they didn't do the

1095
00:41:38,462 --> 00:41:38,938
strip search,

1096
00:41:39,509 --> 00:41:41,347
You must have felt a terrific amount of

1097
00:41:41,347 --> 00:41:43,444
relief even though you had to do the,

1098
00:41:43,903 --> 00:41:46,060
the program, the 6 week program afterward.

1099
00:41:46,634 --> 00:41:48,707
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it would have

1100
00:41:48,707 --> 00:41:50,859
been a complete disaster. It was...

1101
00:41:51,736 --> 00:41:54,367
Yeah. There was only really 1 other time

1102
00:41:54,367 --> 00:41:55,978
where I was ever that. Close that was

1103
00:41:55,978 --> 00:41:57,973
why I was in Law school. So that

1104
00:41:57,973 --> 00:42:01,005
happens to you, in looking back, did you

1105
00:42:01,005 --> 00:42:03,240
look at that situation say, well, I better

1106
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,275
stop doing that? Or

1107
00:42:05,894 --> 00:42:07,574
what did you chalk that up to bad

1108
00:42:07,574 --> 00:42:10,054
luck or how did you process that at

1109
00:42:10,054 --> 00:42:10,534
the time?

1110
00:42:11,187 --> 00:42:12,778
I chalk it up to kinda of bad

1111
00:42:12,778 --> 00:42:15,324
luck. U. You know, I had done all

1112
00:42:15,324 --> 00:42:17,074
kinds of crazy things.

1113
00:42:18,044 --> 00:42:19,961
I drove my vol volkswagen up the steps

1114
00:42:19,961 --> 00:42:21,639
of the Jefferson Memorial once.

1115
00:42:22,677 --> 00:42:23,177
And

1116
00:42:23,876 --> 00:42:24,376
and

1117
00:42:25,407 --> 00:42:27,954
policeman when a park policeman came out as

1118
00:42:28,034 --> 00:42:29,786
I was driving down, and he was just

1119
00:42:29,786 --> 00:42:30,422
in enraged.

1120
00:42:31,696 --> 00:42:34,257
And he was screaming at me about how

1121
00:42:34,417 --> 00:42:36,190
I couldn't do that, and I kept just

1122
00:42:36,644 --> 00:42:38,077
screaming back. I said, I'm trying to get

1123
00:42:38,077 --> 00:42:39,986
to 95 why don't gift have size,

1124
00:42:40,797 --> 00:42:43,103
where 95 South when he pointed,

1125
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:45,569
and I just went that 1, and that

1126
00:42:45,569 --> 00:42:46,047
was that.

1127
00:42:47,494 --> 00:42:49,244
So... Oh my gosh.

1128
00:42:50,357 --> 00:42:51,948
Stuff like that. So, you know, so I

1129
00:42:51,948 --> 00:42:53,698
just talked it up as to bad luck

1130
00:42:53,698 --> 00:42:56,102
because you know, I'd had the pre drinking

1131
00:42:56,102 --> 00:42:57,536
before I was on my way to the

1132
00:42:57,536 --> 00:42:59,129
rural part Yeah. When I got stopped. Yeah.

1133
00:42:59,766 --> 00:43:01,041
I think after the class,

1134
00:43:01,693 --> 00:43:03,600
maybe I tried to slow down a little

1135
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,700
bit. Mh. I honestly don't remember if if

1136
00:43:06,859 --> 00:43:09,813
I did it wasn't wasn't much. Did they

1137
00:43:09,813 --> 00:43:10,313
present

1138
00:43:10,686 --> 00:43:13,066
options to you and was Aa ever talked

1139
00:43:13,066 --> 00:43:15,684
about or recommended in that program? I don't

1140
00:43:15,684 --> 00:43:16,637
remember that. Mh.

1141
00:43:17,683 --> 00:43:20,380
I'm remembering right, they showed us is like

1142
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:23,475
the driving when the had drivers in, show

1143
00:43:23,475 --> 00:43:26,587
you all those horrible crashes. Mh. If And

1144
00:43:26,587 --> 00:43:28,897
there was, of the guy that taught it

1145
00:43:28,897 --> 00:43:30,570
was a very nice man. I think he

1146
00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:31,548
was 1 of us

1147
00:43:31,925 --> 00:43:35,362
that was teaching him. And he began this

1148
00:43:35,362 --> 00:43:36,873
like, you know, I'm not gonna say that

1149
00:43:36,873 --> 00:43:39,099
you have a problem. Yeah. Or anything like

1150
00:43:39,099 --> 00:43:41,246
that, but you're here because, you know,

1151
00:43:42,059 --> 00:43:44,856
it obviously caused you a problem and Yeah.

1152
00:43:46,134 --> 00:43:48,771
Stuff like that. And Yeah. You know, most

1153
00:43:48,771 --> 00:43:50,776
most people that didn't most people were young,

1154
00:43:50,855 --> 00:43:52,604
and they they didn't take them seriously at

1155
00:43:52,604 --> 00:43:54,432
all. And I... To me, it was just

1156
00:43:54,432 --> 00:43:56,897
kind of a what my tenants were getting

1157
00:43:56,897 --> 00:43:58,664
caught. There So you were married. You had

1158
00:43:58,664 --> 00:44:01,636
a child. You were working here in Houston.

1159
00:44:02,332 --> 00:44:03,847
Can you kind of walk us up the

1160
00:44:03,847 --> 00:44:05,600
road to 19 96.

1161
00:44:06,013 --> 00:44:09,265
Sure. So on my own in Washington, Dc.

1162
00:44:09,582 --> 00:44:10,637
U. And

1163
00:44:11,089 --> 00:44:13,786
I actually started to load trucks again.

1164
00:44:14,517 --> 00:44:16,668
Because we had bought this house, and I

1165
00:44:16,668 --> 00:44:17,544
had a new baby.

1166
00:44:18,260 --> 00:44:18,760
And

1167
00:44:19,296 --> 00:44:21,446
I knew this guy, who was a counselor

1168
00:44:21,446 --> 00:44:22,641
for Pens. Mh.

1169
00:44:23,134 --> 00:44:25,046
And he and I got to know each

1170
00:44:25,046 --> 00:44:27,277
other okay. And he had arranged for me

1171
00:44:27,277 --> 00:44:29,348
to come down an interview with Penn. As

1172
00:44:29,348 --> 00:44:31,260
as General Counsel. And so I came to

1173
00:44:31,420 --> 00:44:32,216
Houston and did that.

1174
00:44:32,947 --> 00:44:35,889
And at the time, I literally, couple days

1175
00:44:35,889 --> 00:44:38,512
before I flew in, Penn got acquired by

1176
00:44:38,671 --> 00:44:40,284
T. Right. And

1177
00:44:40,754 --> 00:44:42,369
that changed the whole dynamic,

1178
00:44:43,224 --> 00:44:45,775
they sent me up to New York interview,

1179
00:44:46,413 --> 00:44:48,405
and I blew that interview because I was...

1180
00:44:48,659 --> 00:44:51,456
Too hungover over. Oh, my. U. And so

1181
00:44:51,456 --> 00:44:53,135
this guy knew a guy who knew a

1182
00:44:53,135 --> 00:44:55,452
guy, a long story short. There was a

1183
00:44:55,452 --> 00:44:57,311
small law firm in Houston

1184
00:44:57,864 --> 00:45:01,221
that was doing... They they did securities work,

1185
00:45:01,620 --> 00:45:03,958
and they're creating a lot of limited

1186
00:45:04,337 --> 00:45:05,876
partnerships for oil and gas

1187
00:45:06,255 --> 00:45:08,823
exploration. And they had no 1 who new

1188
00:45:08,823 --> 00:45:11,376
oil and gas law. And so I told

1189
00:45:11,376 --> 00:45:13,369
them my new oil and gas law, which

1190
00:45:13,449 --> 00:45:15,284
I didn't. Mh. I had to had 1

1191
00:45:15,284 --> 00:45:17,848
course. Oh okay. But I talked a good

1192
00:45:17,848 --> 00:45:20,234
enough game where I came down and they

1193
00:45:20,234 --> 00:45:23,098
hired me. Mh. And that was in 19

1194
00:45:23,098 --> 00:45:23,655
83.

1195
00:45:23,989 --> 00:45:26,969
And so I moved down without my wife

1196
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:27,849
and son

1197
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:30,869
and moved down and lived here in an

1198
00:45:30,869 --> 00:45:33,683
apartment. I started working for them. Mh. And

1199
00:45:33,683 --> 00:45:36,161
then... Right. Sure. They came down after a

1200
00:45:36,161 --> 00:45:39,936
year. And I worked from them from 19

1201
00:45:40,156 --> 00:45:40,955
83.

1202
00:45:41,766 --> 00:45:42,823
Probably till

1203
00:45:43,198 --> 00:45:43,698
19

1204
00:45:44,152 --> 00:45:45,823
94.

1205
00:45:46,061 --> 00:45:47,834
U. Then that firm basically

1206
00:45:48,289 --> 00:45:48,527
exploded.

1207
00:45:49,163 --> 00:45:51,414
And I went with 1 of the partners

1208
00:45:51,574 --> 00:45:53,734
I went with him, and I was working

1209
00:45:53,734 --> 00:45:55,815
with him when I came into the program.

1210
00:45:56,135 --> 00:45:58,775
So during that 11 year period, whenever your

1211
00:45:58,775 --> 00:46:01,183
wife and... Child came down. You work from

1212
00:46:01,183 --> 00:46:02,082
83

1213
00:46:02,299 --> 00:46:03,495
until 94.

1214
00:46:03,814 --> 00:46:06,684
Was your drinking escalating or was it staying

1215
00:46:06,684 --> 00:46:09,907
the same or had you created a pattern

1216
00:46:09,965 --> 00:46:12,353
of drinking and working that sustained you through

1217
00:46:12,353 --> 00:46:14,343
that time. Oh, wait it escalated it big

1218
00:46:14,343 --> 00:46:15,936
time. At at 19 86.

1219
00:46:17,062 --> 00:46:19,444
You know, I I remember people with partners

1220
00:46:19,444 --> 00:46:21,429
at work would comment on me drinking beer

1221
00:46:21,429 --> 00:46:23,572
in the morning and oh my stuff like

1222
00:46:23,572 --> 00:46:25,585
that. U. The only reason I I was

1223
00:46:25,585 --> 00:46:27,184
able to stay long was I was able

1224
00:46:27,184 --> 00:46:28,785
to, you know, build the hours.

1225
00:46:29,425 --> 00:46:31,765
But 19 86, I got hospitalized.

1226
00:46:32,638 --> 00:46:33,138
And

1227
00:46:33,753 --> 00:46:36,223
went in and they did a heart thing,

1228
00:46:36,622 --> 00:46:39,512
art scan, and all that, and they

1229
00:46:39,824 --> 00:46:42,289
they put me directly into intensive care.

1230
00:46:43,324 --> 00:46:45,414
And said that I had something called

1231
00:46:45,949 --> 00:46:46,346
alcoholic.

1232
00:46:46,759 --> 00:46:47,259
Cardiomyopathy.

1233
00:46:48,277 --> 00:46:51,153
It's basically where you've drinking so much. It's

1234
00:46:51,153 --> 00:46:52,990
to attack the heart muscle, or your heart

1235
00:46:52,990 --> 00:46:53,310
muscle.

1236
00:46:54,204 --> 00:46:56,462
And they said that I had destroyed

1237
00:46:57,161 --> 00:46:59,079
between a quarter and a third of my

1238
00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:00,517
heart muscle. Oh my gosh.

1239
00:47:01,157 --> 00:47:02,889
And that I would never get it back

1240
00:47:03,327 --> 00:47:05,235
and 1 of the things I used to

1241
00:47:05,235 --> 00:47:07,064
do was I used to love to run.

1242
00:47:07,223 --> 00:47:08,655
And so I can't pee an alcohol. Like,

1243
00:47:08,814 --> 00:47:10,563
I can run 6 miles. You know? Right.

1244
00:47:10,802 --> 00:47:12,733
U. And they thought I couldn't run

1245
00:47:13,204 --> 00:47:14,963
I couldn't, you know, I needed to find

1246
00:47:14,963 --> 00:47:17,519
a lower impact kind of lower stress job.

1247
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,917
U. And so I was in intensive care

1248
00:47:19,917 --> 00:47:23,308
for 6 days, and then Got out. And

1249
00:47:24,161 --> 00:47:27,822
stopped drinking and stopped running and cut my

1250
00:47:27,822 --> 00:47:30,050
hours back, and U.

1251
00:47:31,180 --> 00:47:35,318
I began slowly to jog and and run

1252
00:47:35,318 --> 00:47:37,706
again. U. Finally, after 6 months,

1253
00:47:38,436 --> 00:47:40,342
I was with my wife when we went

1254
00:47:40,342 --> 00:47:41,850
to a rockets game and I thought, I

1255
00:47:41,850 --> 00:47:43,438
have a beer. Mh. And I did. And

1256
00:47:43,517 --> 00:47:45,422
I was off to the races again. Wow.

1257
00:47:46,392 --> 00:47:49,023
And it took a while this time. I

1258
00:47:49,023 --> 00:47:51,197
was careful with it, and

1259
00:47:51,813 --> 00:47:53,965
I don't have beer than I only have.

1260
00:47:54,538 --> 00:47:57,011
Would only drink on weekends. And U. It

1261
00:47:57,011 --> 00:47:59,483
just gradually escalated through the next 10 years.

1262
00:47:59,643 --> 00:48:02,195
But I had probably 3 or 4 years

1263
00:48:02,195 --> 00:48:03,572
there where I was

1264
00:48:04,284 --> 00:48:07,317
drinking but not not crazy like it was

1265
00:48:07,317 --> 00:48:10,191
before. So you became a temporary moderate drinker

1266
00:48:10,191 --> 00:48:12,186
then for that... For the period of 3

1267
00:48:12,186 --> 00:48:14,596
to 4 years. Probably a temporary heavy drinker.

1268
00:48:14,755 --> 00:48:16,671
But... Yeah. A temporary heavy drink drinker. Okay.

1269
00:48:16,911 --> 00:48:18,986
But not alcoholic drink. Okay. I get it.

1270
00:48:19,305 --> 00:48:21,620
So after that period and you picked up

1271
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:22,932
again. And you

1272
00:48:23,310 --> 00:48:25,703
you went even further down the tubes at

1273
00:48:25,703 --> 00:48:26,899
that point. Yeah.

1274
00:48:27,776 --> 00:48:29,690
So the law firm broke up, and then

1275
00:48:29,770 --> 00:48:31,206
I was working with the 1 guy and

1276
00:48:31,206 --> 00:48:34,097
by that. Time by 95 96.

1277
00:48:34,896 --> 00:48:37,932
I was completely physically addicted. Mh. You know,

1278
00:48:38,092 --> 00:48:40,065
I was no longer drinking to

1279
00:48:40,422 --> 00:48:42,650
make myself feel good. I was only drinking

1280
00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:43,604
not to feel bad.

1281
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:46,627
I remember that why I could still type.

1282
00:48:47,358 --> 00:48:49,186
And I could just do. Right. Wrote them

1283
00:48:49,186 --> 00:48:51,968
all my best stuff legally back then. My

1284
00:48:51,968 --> 00:48:54,034
motor coordination was so going. I couldn't sign

1285
00:48:54,034 --> 00:48:56,021
my name. Oh my goodness. You know, I

1286
00:48:56,021 --> 00:48:58,735
would... Drinking the morning on the way. If

1287
00:48:58,815 --> 00:49:00,799
I if I didn't drink by 03:00 in

1288
00:49:00,799 --> 00:49:02,068
the afternoon, I would be,

1289
00:49:02,783 --> 00:49:04,704
my clothes would be, like, faster to my

1290
00:49:04,704 --> 00:49:05,021
body.

1291
00:49:05,657 --> 00:49:07,007
I've being a cold sweat.

1292
00:49:07,643 --> 00:49:08,120
And

1293
00:49:08,914 --> 00:49:11,393
yeah. It was brutal it was brutal To

1294
00:49:11,393 --> 00:49:13,708
what did your disease attribute that to? Did

1295
00:49:13,708 --> 00:49:15,305
you know that it was the disease that

1296
00:49:15,305 --> 00:49:16,742
was doing it? Or were you convinced it

1297
00:49:16,742 --> 00:49:19,217
might be something else? No. I knew that

1298
00:49:19,296 --> 00:49:20,015
I was screwed.

1299
00:49:21,624 --> 00:49:23,536
How is at that place where everyone talks

1300
00:49:23,536 --> 00:49:25,927
about is that you know you gotta do

1301
00:49:25,927 --> 00:49:27,840
something and should do something, but you can't.

1302
00:49:29,050 --> 00:49:30,425
And, physically, I

1303
00:49:30,802 --> 00:49:32,655
I couldn't do it. Yeah. The cardiomyopathy

1304
00:49:33,111 --> 00:49:35,739
that that you'd been diagnosed with 10 years

1305
00:49:35,739 --> 00:49:37,746
before, did that? Come back or did that

1306
00:49:37,746 --> 00:49:39,741
get worse or better? Seems to me if

1307
00:49:39,741 --> 00:49:41,736
you had it then, another 10 years of

1308
00:49:41,736 --> 00:49:43,651
heavy drinking, you would be dead somewhere along

1309
00:49:43,651 --> 00:49:45,495
the way. Well, that's what it was bizarre.

1310
00:49:45,734 --> 00:49:48,277
So... U. After I had that diagnosis and

1311
00:49:48,357 --> 00:49:50,184
I was seeing the doctor all the time

1312
00:49:50,184 --> 00:49:52,824
and all that stuff. I came in 1

1313
00:49:52,824 --> 00:49:54,656
time, and I had started to run again,

1314
00:49:54,815 --> 00:49:56,407
and and he did the scan,

1315
00:49:57,124 --> 00:49:59,274
and he looked at me with this look

1316
00:49:59,274 --> 00:50:02,309
on his face. And says you're cured. Oh

1317
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:03,762
my gosh. And,

1318
00:50:04,454 --> 00:50:05,668
you know, my wife

1319
00:50:06,439 --> 00:50:08,901
and my son both attributed that to literally

1320
00:50:08,901 --> 00:50:09,457
a miracle.

1321
00:50:10,109 --> 00:50:12,266
Because, this this guy said I was... My

1322
00:50:12,266 --> 00:50:13,066
heart was damaged,

1323
00:50:13,785 --> 00:50:16,022
and they had the test to prove it,

1324
00:50:16,182 --> 00:50:17,880
and I was I back

1325
00:50:18,274 --> 00:50:19,953
you know, and I was running stronger than

1326
00:50:19,953 --> 00:50:23,629
ever before. U. He couldn't explain it. And

1327
00:50:23,629 --> 00:50:25,467
to me, of course, I thought, you know,

1328
00:50:25,706 --> 00:50:27,625
in my craziness, I, of course, I.

1329
00:50:28,277 --> 00:50:30,110
Why why I I knew this wasn't gonna

1330
00:50:30,110 --> 00:50:33,057
keep me down. And Yeah. So I didn't

1331
00:50:33,057 --> 00:50:34,354
have that. I have

1332
00:50:34,890 --> 00:50:36,722
what it caused was a a

1333
00:50:38,010 --> 00:50:40,630
fibrillation and nature of fibrillation. Mh. That's what

1334
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:41,979
it left me with. And I have that

1335
00:50:41,979 --> 00:50:44,917
to this day. And 95 96.

1336
00:50:45,408 --> 00:50:48,107
It's not the cardiomyopathy. The... You still may

1337
00:50:48,107 --> 00:50:50,275
have had the atrial fibrillation, but

1338
00:50:50,648 --> 00:50:53,427
it was other factors that were affecting you

1339
00:50:53,427 --> 00:50:55,512
physically to the... Extent that you were shaking

1340
00:50:55,512 --> 00:50:57,108
and having other physical problems.

1341
00:50:57,986 --> 00:50:58,965
When I finally

1342
00:50:59,662 --> 00:51:00,780
went to see a doctor,

1343
00:51:02,137 --> 00:51:05,101
the only... Physical issues I had were Have

1344
00:51:05,101 --> 00:51:07,252
had accidentally add liver issues. The the only

1345
00:51:07,252 --> 00:51:09,425
physical issues I noticed or all

1346
00:51:10,121 --> 00:51:13,244
alcohol related. I see. Okay. Either either the

1347
00:51:13,244 --> 00:51:15,881
shakes or the sweats or U. You know,

1348
00:51:16,041 --> 00:51:19,157
whatever. I think I operated probably well above

1349
00:51:19,157 --> 00:51:21,643
the legal limit, 24 7, by that time.

1350
00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:24,603
Did you find that it was affecting your

1351
00:51:24,818 --> 00:51:27,675
cognitive skills or were you were you still

1352
00:51:27,675 --> 00:51:29,047
able to function cognitive?

1353
00:51:29,674 --> 00:51:31,211
I was able to function cognitive.

1354
00:51:31,748 --> 00:51:33,582
Yeah. That could been a real curse at

1355
00:51:33,582 --> 00:51:35,496
the time then right? What what it did

1356
00:51:35,496 --> 00:51:35,996
was

1357
00:51:36,373 --> 00:51:39,005
I was very re about driving anywhere.

1358
00:51:40,295 --> 00:51:42,685
Because you, you know, if it was any

1359
00:51:42,685 --> 00:51:43,880
distance to drive.

1360
00:51:44,438 --> 00:51:46,190
I knew I could make it without drinking.

1361
00:51:46,604 --> 00:51:49,793
Yeah. So you get to 95 96.

1362
00:51:50,191 --> 00:51:52,503
As I recall you said something about being

1363
00:51:52,503 --> 00:51:53,003
hospitalized.

1364
00:51:53,539 --> 00:51:55,546
What what was that about? Or maybe you

1365
00:51:55,546 --> 00:51:56,899
didn't. Maybe I've just heard that in your

1366
00:51:56,899 --> 00:51:58,570
story over the years, and I just imagined

1367
00:51:58,570 --> 00:52:01,196
you said it. No. I was hospitalized again.

1368
00:52:01,435 --> 00:52:01,833
U.

1369
00:52:02,644 --> 00:52:05,036
It got to the point where the only

1370
00:52:05,036 --> 00:52:06,733
thing I could think of to do

1371
00:52:07,509 --> 00:52:10,380
was try... To try and recreate what had

1372
00:52:10,380 --> 00:52:11,496
happened at 86.

1373
00:52:12,628 --> 00:52:13,983
Which is where I'd had gone into the

1374
00:52:13,983 --> 00:52:14,483
hospital

1375
00:52:14,860 --> 00:52:16,057
in intensive care.

1376
00:52:16,695 --> 00:52:19,088
Mh. Cleaned up and came out, and I

1377
00:52:19,088 --> 00:52:21,401
got, like, another 10 year license.

1378
00:52:22,135 --> 00:52:24,375
Drink. Okay. And so I went to a

1379
00:52:24,375 --> 00:52:26,855
family doctor. My family doctor was a good

1380
00:52:26,855 --> 00:52:29,175
guy. Mh. And kinda told him what was

1381
00:52:29,175 --> 00:52:29,815
going on.

1382
00:52:30,295 --> 00:52:32,546
And he wanted to send me treatment, but

1383
00:52:32,626 --> 00:52:34,378
I insisted that the only thing I would

1384
00:52:34,378 --> 00:52:36,449
let him do was to put me in

1385
00:52:36,449 --> 00:52:39,339
the hospital for what I called gas.

1386
00:52:40,193 --> 00:52:42,223
I see. Yeah. And so

1387
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,632
that's what he did. I I remember very

1388
00:52:45,632 --> 00:52:45,872
well.

1389
00:52:46,590 --> 00:52:48,127
I was admitted,

1390
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,000
on the... I think July t. Mh. And

1391
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,840
before I went into the hospital while I

1392
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,019
was sitting there in my car

1393
00:52:57,729 --> 00:53:00,027
drinking a bottle of pop off, vodka.

1394
00:53:01,612 --> 00:53:02,643
Straight out of the bottle.

1395
00:53:03,594 --> 00:53:04,094
And

1396
00:53:04,957 --> 00:53:06,784
you know, I finally went in and checked

1397
00:53:06,784 --> 00:53:07,261
myself in,

1398
00:53:08,293 --> 00:53:11,018
and they put me with a some

1399
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:13,869
a room with some guy that kept screaming.

1400
00:53:14,107 --> 00:53:16,967
Oh my god. Oh, so I said, get

1401
00:53:16,967 --> 00:53:18,317
me out of here, so they put me

1402
00:53:18,317 --> 00:53:20,858
up in the oncology ward. U. And I

1403
00:53:20,858 --> 00:53:22,549
was there for the t

1404
00:53:23,255 --> 00:53:25,473
30 first, which was my first day sober,

1405
00:53:25,948 --> 00:53:28,088
and I think I got out the first

1406
00:53:28,088 --> 00:53:30,403
of the second. U. You know, so they

1407
00:53:30,403 --> 00:53:32,159
had basically dried me out. They gave me

1408
00:53:32,238 --> 00:53:32,717
Equilibrium.

1409
00:53:33,594 --> 00:53:36,328
And I remember this I... I was so

1410
00:53:36,626 --> 00:53:36,865
weak,

1411
00:53:37,597 --> 00:53:39,108
that I could not get out of bed

1412
00:53:39,108 --> 00:53:40,857
by myself to go to the bathroom.

1413
00:53:41,732 --> 00:53:43,481
So I'd have a guy come and help

1414
00:53:43,481 --> 00:53:44,379
me. Mh.

1415
00:53:44,754 --> 00:53:45,254
And

1416
00:53:46,041 --> 00:53:47,414
I got out and they

1417
00:53:47,788 --> 00:53:51,306
had, like, a doctor that specialized in livers

1418
00:53:51,997 --> 00:53:53,348
came to see me and

1419
00:53:54,079 --> 00:53:54,320
Had up.

1420
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,199
Appointments with him and my

1421
00:53:58,160 --> 00:53:59,119
Gp came in.

1422
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,000
I just remember him tapping me on this

1423
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:02,500
chest

1424
00:54:03,134 --> 00:54:04,730
because he had finally understood what I was

1425
00:54:04,730 --> 00:54:06,485
trying to do and he said you're you're

1426
00:54:06,485 --> 00:54:08,480
doing the right thing. This was the right

1427
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,316
thing that you did. Right. And and I

1428
00:54:10,316 --> 00:54:12,023
got out. And I was just

1429
00:54:12,713 --> 00:54:14,459
just lost. Just lost.

1430
00:54:15,015 --> 00:54:16,919
I weighed a hundred hundred and 60 pounds,

1431
00:54:17,078 --> 00:54:17,951
hundred and 55,

1432
00:54:18,284 --> 00:54:21,101
Wow, which is we were really skinny. So

1433
00:54:21,321 --> 00:54:23,159
you get out 3 days later,

1434
00:54:23,718 --> 00:54:25,237
did you still have the cravings? I mean...

1435
00:54:25,556 --> 00:54:26,914
No. The physical cravings...

1436
00:54:27,328 --> 00:54:28,625
Or gone. But,

1437
00:54:29,161 --> 00:54:31,710
you know, I almost remember that time is

1438
00:54:31,710 --> 00:54:34,260
like, like, this period of, like, fear in

1439
00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:35,932
a desert where the sun is so bright.

1440
00:54:36,092 --> 00:54:39,456
Everything is quite. Right. And that's actually what

1441
00:54:39,616 --> 00:54:41,370
I I've I just felt like, I've been

1442
00:54:41,370 --> 00:54:44,401
burnt clean. Mh. And that was nothing really

1443
00:54:44,401 --> 00:54:45,996
about a shell. I thought my life was

1444
00:54:45,996 --> 00:54:46,966
over Mh.

1445
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:50,702
The liver doctor told me that I remember

1446
00:54:50,702 --> 00:54:52,372
you said, if you drink again, you're gonna

1447
00:54:52,372 --> 00:54:55,234
die, you know, your liver tests are off

1448
00:54:55,234 --> 00:54:55,711
the charts.

1449
00:54:56,838 --> 00:54:57,338
And

1450
00:54:57,870 --> 00:54:59,696
even then my response was kinda like, yeah.

1451
00:54:59,855 --> 00:55:02,873
Sure. I've heard that before. Mh. But for

1452
00:55:02,873 --> 00:55:05,016
whatever reason I didn't try to drink.

1453
00:55:05,746 --> 00:55:07,889
But I I just thought, you know, this

1454
00:55:07,889 --> 00:55:10,770
is just, you know, I'll, I'm too scared

1455
00:55:10,905 --> 00:55:12,572
to kill myself. Mh.

1456
00:55:12,984 --> 00:55:15,207
And so I'm just gonna continue on this

1457
00:55:15,207 --> 00:55:18,066
bleak mindless existence until I die. And not

1458
00:55:18,066 --> 00:55:19,360
drink. And and,

1459
00:55:19,733 --> 00:55:21,401
you know, see what happened, but I knew

1460
00:55:21,718 --> 00:55:24,278
Under something in me told me I couldn't

1461
00:55:24,278 --> 00:55:25,949
drink that. Well, I couldn't hold anything down.

1462
00:55:26,187 --> 00:55:27,699
That's why I'd really gone to the doctor

1463
00:55:27,699 --> 00:55:29,926
in the first place. U. Is I was

1464
00:55:29,926 --> 00:55:32,887
unable to hold. Something anything down. Wow. Even

1465
00:55:32,887 --> 00:55:34,800
alcohol, Would have a hard time holding down.

1466
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:38,226
U. And I was eating, like, bread and

1467
00:55:38,226 --> 00:55:38,545
water,

1468
00:55:39,118 --> 00:55:41,112
and that was the only thing I could

1469
00:55:41,112 --> 00:55:44,244
hold down. Hence myself diagnosis for gas.

1470
00:55:45,180 --> 00:55:49,103
But well, liver doctor e develop method treatment,

1471
00:55:49,343 --> 00:55:52,296
which was very successful with me. Mh. It

1472
00:55:52,296 --> 00:55:54,211
was kind of experimental, but he got my

1473
00:55:54,211 --> 00:55:56,685
liver function back to normal very quickly. Wow.

1474
00:55:57,339 --> 00:55:57,739
And

1475
00:55:58,298 --> 00:55:59,816
but I couldn't eat for a while, and

1476
00:55:59,816 --> 00:56:01,653
so I just kinda, you know, I was

1477
00:56:01,653 --> 00:56:03,890
off work. U. I Was just kinda lost.

1478
00:56:04,223 --> 00:56:06,284
So at that point, you mentioned that, you,

1479
00:56:06,443 --> 00:56:08,107
you were in a treatment center. How long

1480
00:56:08,107 --> 00:56:10,168
were you there? So I had a client.

1481
00:56:10,643 --> 00:56:11,515
U. That

1482
00:56:12,088 --> 00:56:13,921
it was also a friend of mine. U.

1483
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,232
That had gone to the club he and

1484
00:56:16,232 --> 00:56:18,383
his wife. U. And the next had a

1485
00:56:18,383 --> 00:56:20,730
couple of their ever clear bar.

1486
00:56:21,184 --> 00:56:24,048
Right. Like 11. And then the next thing

1487
00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:24,605
he remembers,

1488
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,880
there's a, 4 Ben Constable next to him

1489
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,550
with her way out in 4 Bend County.

1490
00:56:29,709 --> 00:56:31,617
U. And he's noon. And his wife is

1491
00:56:31,617 --> 00:56:33,526
moved. And he's dragging her by the feet

1492
00:56:33,526 --> 00:56:36,484
up this road, Oh my god. And so

1493
00:56:36,484 --> 00:56:38,655
they put him in jail, and

1494
00:56:39,827 --> 00:56:42,214
this was swallow I was still drinking. U.

1495
00:56:42,453 --> 00:56:45,016
Oh, they put him in jail. And his

1496
00:56:45,016 --> 00:56:45,516
wife

1497
00:56:45,973 --> 00:56:49,184
was wondering whether to press charges for domestic

1498
00:56:49,322 --> 00:56:51,554
violence and stuff like that. I was all

1499
00:56:51,554 --> 00:56:52,192
all agreed,

1500
00:56:53,005 --> 00:56:54,203
And I got a friend of mine who

1501
00:56:54,203 --> 00:56:56,441
as Bottle was angry that she wouldn't if

1502
00:56:56,441 --> 00:56:57,320
he went to treatment.

1503
00:56:57,959 --> 00:57:00,117
Okay. And I went to see him there.

1504
00:57:00,436 --> 00:57:02,195
U. And so that...

1505
00:57:03,009 --> 00:57:05,086
I remembered that. U. And so,

1506
00:57:05,885 --> 00:57:08,442
maybe a week plus so after I got

1507
00:57:08,442 --> 00:57:09,320
out of the hospital,

1508
00:57:10,294 --> 00:57:12,052
I went to treatment. So you went to

1509
00:57:12,052 --> 00:57:14,849
the treatment center within days after getting out

1510
00:57:14,849 --> 00:57:15,569
of the hospital.

1511
00:57:15,968 --> 00:57:17,887
I wanna say a week or 2. So

1512
00:57:17,887 --> 00:57:20,298
your sobriety date was within that first part

1513
00:57:20,298 --> 00:57:22,453
of that week. Right. No last Friday date

1514
00:57:22,453 --> 00:57:24,369
was the first night in the hospital. I

1515
00:57:24,528 --> 00:57:26,443
I found this. I guess maybe I shouldn't

1516
00:57:26,443 --> 00:57:27,880
because I was still on Libya.

1517
00:57:28,373 --> 00:57:30,442
But that was the first 24 hours I

1518
00:57:30,442 --> 00:57:32,909
had that alcohol. Okay. So you went from

1519
00:57:32,909 --> 00:57:33,648
the hospital

1520
00:57:34,182 --> 00:57:35,376
to the treatment center.

1521
00:57:36,502 --> 00:57:38,564
Within the first week or at about a

1522
00:57:38,564 --> 00:57:40,864
week later? And how long were you at

1523
00:57:40,864 --> 00:57:43,425
the treatment center? I I went in

1524
00:57:43,893 --> 00:57:46,041
they wanted to do inpatient, and I said,

1525
00:57:46,359 --> 00:57:49,541
no. And so they accepted me as outpatient.

1526
00:57:50,097 --> 00:57:50,597
So

1527
00:57:50,908 --> 00:57:53,054
I did the outpatient thing which was still,

1528
00:57:53,213 --> 00:57:55,201
like, what, 3 nights week for 3 hours

1529
00:57:55,201 --> 00:57:56,655
a night and plus Saturdays.

1530
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:59,677
Mh. And I did that. And

1531
00:58:00,704 --> 00:58:03,179
I actually found that I liked it. Was

1532
00:58:03,179 --> 00:58:06,052
that your first exposure to Then? Yes. Yeah.

1533
00:58:06,611 --> 00:58:07,750
I see. And.

1534
00:58:08,208 --> 00:58:10,535
You know, I was within the... About a

1535
00:58:10,535 --> 00:58:13,821
bunch of girls were in my group

1536
00:58:14,355 --> 00:58:16,584
that were mainly nurses that they got caught

1537
00:58:16,584 --> 00:58:18,588
for some pills some stuff like that. And

1538
00:58:18,588 --> 00:58:20,496
so they... Right. And this was also the

1539
00:58:20,496 --> 00:58:23,755
time when, you know, insurance covered all this

1540
00:58:23,755 --> 00:58:26,141
stuff, and it was... They straightened up all

1541
00:58:26,141 --> 00:58:28,380
over the place, but Yeah. So I did

1542
00:58:28,380 --> 00:58:29,437
that. And

1543
00:58:29,890 --> 00:58:32,035
that's what eventually led me to Aa. So

1544
00:58:32,035 --> 00:58:33,862
you came to Aa. Now when you got

1545
00:58:33,862 --> 00:58:35,371
out of the treatment center.

1546
00:58:35,943 --> 00:58:38,963
Were you sufficiently ind with what Aa was

1547
00:58:38,963 --> 00:58:41,586
about and the necessity of meetings to go

1548
00:58:41,586 --> 00:58:43,494
on your own at that point? No. I

1549
00:58:43,494 --> 00:58:45,738
was actually, I think... I don't know if

1550
00:58:45,818 --> 00:58:47,656
I was out of the treatment center still

1551
00:58:47,656 --> 00:58:49,254
going, but it was at 1 of the

1552
00:58:49,413 --> 00:58:51,730
Saturday morning kinda after care of things.

1553
00:58:52,703 --> 00:58:53,578
That Mh.

1554
00:58:54,135 --> 00:58:56,364
They insisted that I go to an Aa

1555
00:58:56,364 --> 00:58:56,602
meeting.

1556
00:58:57,239 --> 00:58:59,387
And so my first Aa meeting was 1

1557
00:58:59,387 --> 00:59:01,138
night Where people from the outside would come

1558
00:59:01,138 --> 00:59:03,787
in. Right? Yeah mainly guys patrol for, you

1559
00:59:03,787 --> 00:59:04,686
know, responsibilities.

1560
00:59:05,465 --> 00:59:07,223
So I went to that and I enjoyed

1561
00:59:07,223 --> 00:59:08,362
it, and

1562
00:59:08,901 --> 00:59:10,020
I remember Mark pee,

1563
00:59:10,831 --> 00:59:12,182
insisted that I go Mh.

1564
00:59:12,978 --> 00:59:14,568
Outside to an A meeting,

1565
00:59:15,601 --> 00:59:18,169
and strongly suggested holy name

1566
00:59:18,798 --> 00:59:21,751
and absolutely insisted that I get a sponsor.

1567
00:59:22,151 --> 00:59:25,024
He said, don't come back without 1, and

1568
00:59:25,024 --> 00:59:26,561
he impressed upon me

1569
00:59:27,034 --> 00:59:27,434
that,

1570
00:59:28,312 --> 00:59:30,789
which, you know, rightly or wrongly I have

1571
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:33,446
followed is that I I had to ask

1572
00:59:33,505 --> 00:59:33,905
someone,

1573
00:59:34,558 --> 00:59:37,260
You, I I should not take accept. Yeah.

1574
00:59:37,737 --> 00:59:39,963
A request to be someone sponsored. I had

1575
00:59:39,963 --> 00:59:41,951
to go up and introduce myself and ask.

1576
00:59:42,444 --> 00:59:44,921
Right. And so I did not want to

1577
00:59:44,921 --> 00:59:46,520
do that, but I did it, and that's

1578
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,597
how I ended up with Sand. Yeah. Well,

1579
00:59:48,677 --> 00:59:50,435
that is an important thing to. I remember

1580
00:59:50,435 --> 00:59:52,225
there used to be it. An old timer

1581
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,505
for years. He would say, you you have

1582
00:59:54,505 --> 00:59:56,571
to wait for them to ask you because

1583
00:59:56,571 --> 00:59:58,637
the process of doing that is a a

1584
00:59:58,637 --> 01:00:00,959
humbling experience, and humility is what they need

1585
01:00:00,959 --> 01:00:01,597
at that point.

1586
01:00:02,314 --> 01:00:03,987
And they don't need to be enabled. They

1587
01:00:03,987 --> 01:00:06,377
need to have some humility. So I get

1588
01:00:06,377 --> 01:00:08,847
that, and that's pretty important to to be

1589
01:00:08,847 --> 01:00:11,488
asked. So So you're going to aa now,

1590
01:00:11,726 --> 01:00:12,226
and

1591
01:00:13,158 --> 01:00:15,567
what are some of the the milestones

1592
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:17,713
along the way that

1593
01:00:18,263 --> 01:00:20,176
severely challenged or

1594
01:00:20,894 --> 01:00:22,727
pulled it your sobriety in a way that

1595
01:00:22,727 --> 01:00:25,619
you would worried about maybe slipping or

1596
01:00:26,409 --> 01:00:27,608
you know, I gotta say,

1597
01:00:28,247 --> 01:00:30,106
other than the normal

1598
01:00:30,724 --> 01:00:31,224
issues

1599
01:00:32,083 --> 01:00:34,721
pretty much anyone has when they first come

1600
01:00:34,721 --> 01:00:34,960
in,

1601
01:00:36,013 --> 01:00:38,881
is are little things like Mh. Driving past

1602
01:00:38,881 --> 01:00:41,192
the 07:11 and not stopping for a beer.

1603
01:00:41,749 --> 01:00:41,909
Yeah.

1604
01:00:42,865 --> 01:00:44,936
Not going to liquor store. Yeah.

1605
01:00:45,748 --> 01:00:47,022
Not going to the bars.

1606
01:00:47,819 --> 01:00:50,607
Right. That happened early on. I've gone through

1607
01:00:50,607 --> 01:00:52,780
quite a bit. U. And

1608
01:00:53,475 --> 01:00:54,510
I've never felt.

1609
01:00:55,244 --> 01:00:55,565
Threatened.

1610
01:00:57,164 --> 01:00:57,985
And and

1611
01:00:58,285 --> 01:01:00,045
for that, I have to thank, well, mike...

1612
01:01:00,285 --> 01:01:01,505
That's great. Sponsors,

1613
01:01:02,778 --> 01:01:03,757
mainly Sam

1614
01:01:04,134 --> 01:01:05,730
and then the fellowship?

1615
01:01:06,447 --> 01:01:09,398
Yeah. U. Yeah. Yeah. How about the spiritual

1616
01:01:09,398 --> 01:01:11,073
end of the program? How does that work

1617
01:01:11,073 --> 01:01:12,030
for you over the years?

1618
01:01:12,842 --> 01:01:14,911
I wish I were more spiritual. I don't

1619
01:01:14,911 --> 01:01:16,105
feel spiritual. Yeah.

1620
01:01:17,219 --> 01:01:19,129
I wish I believe more. It's an issue

1621
01:01:19,129 --> 01:01:22,088
that I have. Right. So, you know, for

1622
01:01:22,088 --> 01:01:24,473
me is, you know, I go on about

1623
01:01:24,473 --> 01:01:26,405
my life concerned about my own

1624
01:01:26,779 --> 01:01:28,131
stuff and other people's stuff.

1625
01:01:28,942 --> 01:01:31,570
Pretty much day by day. So I don't

1626
01:01:31,570 --> 01:01:33,322
feel like I have Mh.

1627
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,950
A per spiritual. I know there is 1,

1628
01:01:36,189 --> 01:01:38,274
but I don't feel it as much as

1629
01:01:38,354 --> 01:01:40,583
I would like to. Yeah. I I like

1630
01:01:40,583 --> 01:01:43,688
to ask that question, and I'm intentional about

1631
01:01:43,688 --> 01:01:45,463
it because I don't want people

1632
01:01:45,932 --> 01:01:47,705
taking a look or listening to

1633
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,864
your story and then making assumptions about what

1634
01:01:50,864 --> 01:01:53,424
your spiritual life must be like. So I

1635
01:01:53,583 --> 01:01:55,990
I appreciate you saying what you said, and

1636
01:01:56,046 --> 01:01:57,477
and we all have our own ways of

1637
01:01:57,477 --> 01:01:59,567
working the program with regard to the

1638
01:02:00,099 --> 01:02:01,451
spiritual end of it as well.

1639
01:02:01,944 --> 01:02:03,782
The things that you've gone through while you've

1640
01:02:03,782 --> 01:02:06,019
been sober and in a a...

1641
01:02:06,658 --> 01:02:08,597
You've been able to get through them without

1642
01:02:08,655 --> 01:02:11,456
seriously being champ or feeling like you were

1643
01:02:11,456 --> 01:02:14,235
in danger or perhaps away from the herd.

1644
01:02:14,949 --> 01:02:17,650
Yeah. So I mean, I got divorced and

1645
01:02:17,650 --> 01:02:18,974
remarried. Yeah. I challenged,

1646
01:02:20,133 --> 01:02:23,730
lost both parents. Mh. We got mail, flooded

1647
01:02:23,730 --> 01:02:23,889
out,

1648
01:02:25,328 --> 01:02:27,326
and this issue latest, which is the worst

1649
01:02:27,326 --> 01:02:28,205
1 with my son,

1650
01:02:29,570 --> 01:02:32,346
and I've never really felt Yeah. All saying

1651
01:02:32,346 --> 01:02:34,805
there's, you know, what good is drinking gonna

1652
01:02:34,805 --> 01:02:34,964
do.

1653
01:02:35,773 --> 01:02:37,604
Right. And the other thing I always fall

1654
01:02:37,604 --> 01:02:38,741
back on is

1655
01:02:39,514 --> 01:02:41,664
if I thought a drink might do something.

1656
01:02:42,221 --> 01:02:44,227
Right. I might be interested. It, but I

1657
01:02:44,227 --> 01:02:46,539
have no interest in having a drink or

1658
01:02:46,699 --> 01:02:48,533
Mh. I want, like 40.

1659
01:02:49,171 --> 01:02:49,671
And

1660
01:02:50,048 --> 01:02:52,281
and and I know where that goes. Yeah.

1661
01:02:53,890 --> 01:02:54,130
Yeah.

1662
01:02:55,086 --> 01:02:57,717
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's

1663
01:02:57,717 --> 01:03:00,188
not a good outcome, certainly by by any

1664
01:03:00,188 --> 01:03:00,507
measure.

1665
01:03:01,238 --> 01:03:03,304
Then I like to also ask about any

1666
01:03:03,304 --> 01:03:05,630
of the gifts that you can point to

1667
01:03:05,687 --> 01:03:07,434
that you could look back on and say,

1668
01:03:07,593 --> 01:03:10,310
if I hadn't been sober. I'm... I this

1669
01:03:10,310 --> 01:03:11,822
sort of thing would never have happened in

1670
01:03:11,822 --> 01:03:14,606
my life. Honestly, pretty much everything.

1671
01:03:15,003 --> 01:03:16,515
Literally. I mean, forget...

1672
01:03:17,250 --> 01:03:19,170
Yeah. I'd be dead with this for... Even

1673
01:03:19,170 --> 01:03:21,250
the iv and that. Yeah. You know, I

1674
01:03:21,250 --> 01:03:23,190
am right now sitting

1675
01:03:23,570 --> 01:03:25,670
with my son in Mountain view

1676
01:03:26,224 --> 01:03:28,222
if I hadn't gotten sober, I wouldn't have

1677
01:03:28,222 --> 01:03:29,900
that relationship. At.

1678
01:03:31,338 --> 01:03:34,622
I am happily married. Right. And I also

1679
01:03:34,622 --> 01:03:36,448
get along very well with my ex. I

1680
01:03:36,448 --> 01:03:39,306
would have none neither of those relationships at

1681
01:03:39,306 --> 01:03:39,464
all.

1682
01:03:40,258 --> 01:03:42,342
I was able to... My dad and I

1683
01:03:42,342 --> 01:03:46,090
never really had. Mh. A bad relationship. But,

1684
01:03:46,250 --> 01:03:48,084
you know, I felt... I was able to

1685
01:03:48,084 --> 01:03:49,121
tell him. Mh.

1686
01:03:49,679 --> 01:03:52,087
Before he died. He said, He said, how

1687
01:03:52,087 --> 01:03:52,805
are you doing?

1688
01:03:53,603 --> 01:03:55,677
And I was able to tell him with

1689
01:03:55,677 --> 01:03:57,831
complete sa the best I've ever done.

1690
01:03:59,437 --> 01:04:01,662
And my mom got to see that too.

1691
01:04:03,014 --> 01:04:05,079
So all these things are... And my mom,

1692
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:07,146
my my dad didn't really understand the program.

1693
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,640
Because I remember he'd played white knuckle it.

1694
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,780
And and... But my mom understood

1695
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,099
almost intuitive. Yeah. And

1696
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,407
she was very happy.

1697
01:04:17,884 --> 01:04:19,711
You know, I've got a relationship with my

1698
01:04:19,711 --> 01:04:22,808
sister, which I never had before. Mh. You

1699
01:04:22,808 --> 01:04:25,524
know, a sister that was the bane of

1700
01:04:25,524 --> 01:04:28,148
my existence growing up, is, you know, now

1701
01:04:28,148 --> 01:04:29,737
we we go on vacations together.

1702
01:04:30,930 --> 01:04:33,967
I'm I'm happily married. And I have relationships

1703
01:04:33,967 --> 01:04:36,989
with my daughters. Yeah. And their husbands and

1704
01:04:36,989 --> 01:04:39,137
their kids, my grandkids,

1705
01:04:39,788 --> 01:04:42,089
all this. I never would have had. And

1706
01:04:42,169 --> 01:04:44,867
I'm healthy. I'm bling off. I wouldn't had

1707
01:04:44,867 --> 01:04:46,057
that. So, literally,

1708
01:04:46,771 --> 01:04:47,271
monet

1709
01:04:48,373 --> 01:04:50,594
you know, I was able to retire. You

1710
01:04:50,594 --> 01:04:51,967
know, I went from having

1711
01:04:52,815 --> 01:04:53,553
no money

1712
01:04:54,085 --> 01:04:55,592
and owned the credit cards,

1713
01:04:56,385 --> 01:04:58,415
you 80 some thousand dollars

1714
01:04:59,111 --> 01:05:01,583
to having money where I'm able to retire.

1715
01:05:01,822 --> 01:05:04,614
U. And and fly out and see my

1716
01:05:04,614 --> 01:05:05,911
son, and it's just

1717
01:05:06,223 --> 01:05:09,325
Crazy. That's that crazy. Yeah. And those gifts

1718
01:05:09,325 --> 01:05:11,632
never stop coming when you stay sober and

1719
01:05:11,632 --> 01:05:12,587
involved in the program.

1720
01:05:13,159 --> 01:05:15,396
That's exactly. Yeah. The beautiful thing that I've

1721
01:05:15,396 --> 01:05:16,754
noticed about you over the years, Jim, is

1722
01:05:16,754 --> 01:05:19,251
that you've always been a meeting maker. And

1723
01:05:19,311 --> 01:05:21,079
of the people that I... Can usually count

1724
01:05:21,079 --> 01:05:23,067
on to see in certain meetings, you're 1

1725
01:05:23,067 --> 01:05:23,306
of them.

1726
01:05:24,101 --> 01:05:26,407
And I... The thing I've noticed in the

1727
01:05:26,407 --> 01:05:29,364
past several years is can with regard to

1728
01:05:29,364 --> 01:05:31,772
wanting of your sponsors, just how important

1729
01:05:32,226 --> 01:05:34,770
you have been in his life in helping

1730
01:05:34,770 --> 01:05:37,473
him get through some very very difficult things.

1731
01:05:37,712 --> 01:05:38,085
And

1732
01:05:38,601 --> 01:05:41,010
I I sometimes think we're better off measuring

1733
01:05:41,066 --> 01:05:43,213
ourselves by what impact we have on other

1734
01:05:43,213 --> 01:05:44,803
people as opposed to what impact we have

1735
01:05:44,803 --> 01:05:46,632
on ourselves. Yeah. I think that. You know,

1736
01:05:46,870 --> 01:05:47,768
I've only ever

1737
01:05:48,078 --> 01:05:50,484
sponsored 2 people, and I kinda feel bad

1738
01:05:50,620 --> 01:05:52,685
about that, but at the same time, I

1739
01:05:52,685 --> 01:05:54,513
said, you know, well only 2 people have

1740
01:05:54,513 --> 01:05:56,514
ever asked, being both of them have been

1741
01:05:56,514 --> 01:05:57,945
through you. 1 was will.

1742
01:05:59,296 --> 01:05:59,773
And,

1743
01:06:00,408 --> 01:06:02,077
honestly, I didn't know what I was doing.

1744
01:06:02,315 --> 01:06:03,849
Well, I trying sponsor

1745
01:06:04,239 --> 01:06:06,897
I had no freaking clue, but Wills

1746
01:06:07,516 --> 01:06:09,993
sober and he's fabulous He's a fabulous guy.

1747
01:06:10,473 --> 01:06:12,630
My other guy, you know, spots. That's amazing.

1748
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:14,961
His soap. You know, he he and I

1749
01:06:14,961 --> 01:06:17,675
talked the night before last, and U. He's

1750
01:06:17,675 --> 01:06:20,011
he's doing doing well. And he's had some

1751
01:06:20,469 --> 01:06:22,145
significant. U. Challenges.

1752
01:06:22,718 --> 01:06:25,191
And he's he's gone right through. And if

1753
01:06:25,271 --> 01:06:26,467
I've even had a little bit of that,

1754
01:06:26,626 --> 01:06:29,019
that's a blessing for me. Well, yeah. And

1755
01:06:29,019 --> 01:06:30,375
and you've been... I know you've been a

1756
01:06:30,375 --> 01:06:31,992
blessing in his life and

1757
01:06:32,385 --> 01:06:34,304
and it's been important to help keep you

1758
01:06:34,304 --> 01:06:36,224
sober. You've been a blessing in my life

1759
01:06:36,224 --> 01:06:37,744
too. I I want you to know that.

1760
01:06:37,984 --> 01:06:40,224
You're a a good friend and somebody who

1761
01:06:40,385 --> 01:06:43,340
I feel, good when I'm around, and it's

1762
01:06:43,340 --> 01:06:45,322
so beautiful for us and finally be back

1763
01:06:45,322 --> 01:06:46,987
at the point where maybe we can go

1764
01:06:46,987 --> 01:06:48,574
into some of these live meetings again,

1765
01:06:49,144 --> 01:06:51,449
and get a chance to see eyeball to

1766
01:06:51,449 --> 01:06:51,847
eyeball,

1767
01:06:52,483 --> 01:06:54,073
sit knee a knee. That's always a good

1768
01:06:54,073 --> 01:06:56,300
thing. It's been wonderful. Oh, it has been,

1769
01:06:56,458 --> 01:06:57,588
You know, III...

1770
01:06:57,747 --> 01:07:01,094
When I see you even before you begin

1771
01:07:01,094 --> 01:07:02,766
the the reading, which I think is great.

1772
01:07:03,324 --> 01:07:05,476
It's just like, this is kinda where I

1773
01:07:05,476 --> 01:07:06,751
belong, This is gonna be fun.

1774
01:07:07,481 --> 01:07:09,465
And that's the way I feel. And that's

1775
01:07:09,465 --> 01:07:11,608
the like, you you and Yeah. You make

1776
01:07:11,608 --> 01:07:12,561
me feel. It's like,

1777
01:07:13,434 --> 01:07:15,354
especially some of the bizarre. Stuff we saw

1778
01:07:15,354 --> 01:07:17,181
in the early meetings. You know.

1779
01:07:17,975 --> 01:07:19,802
Oh, I know it. I know it. We

1780
01:07:19,802 --> 01:07:21,708
we both saw a lot of stuff going

1781
01:07:21,708 --> 01:07:21,946
on.

1782
01:07:22,994 --> 01:07:24,347
But a lot of those people are still

1783
01:07:24,347 --> 01:07:26,120
sober. Some aren't, and

1784
01:07:27,053 --> 01:07:28,724
they work their programs as they work them,

1785
01:07:28,883 --> 01:07:30,873
but I've always admired the way you've worked

1786
01:07:30,873 --> 01:07:32,328
your program, and

1787
01:07:32,799 --> 01:07:35,536
it's been a real honor and pleasure to

1788
01:07:35,915 --> 01:07:38,871
share Aa with you and know that it's

1789
01:07:38,871 --> 01:07:40,470
having as big of an impact on your

1790
01:07:40,470 --> 01:07:42,311
life. As it is mine, and

1791
01:07:42,947 --> 01:07:44,296
I'm thrilled that you were able to do

1792
01:07:44,296 --> 01:07:45,883
this today. I knew I wanted to have

1793
01:07:45,883 --> 01:07:47,788
you on. That's something I've known since I

1794
01:07:47,788 --> 01:07:50,815
first as contemplate doing this show. So thank

1795
01:07:50,815 --> 01:07:52,478
you so much for doing this, Jim. This

1796
01:07:52,478 --> 01:07:53,533
has just been a marvelous

1797
01:07:53,984 --> 01:07:55,276
opportunity for us to

1798
01:07:55,663 --> 01:07:57,489
get together. I love you, and I respect

1799
01:07:57,489 --> 01:07:58,045
you. And,

1800
01:07:58,838 --> 01:08:00,847
the last thing I would add is is

1801
01:08:01,220 --> 01:08:02,808
thank you for for asking me.

1802
01:08:03,936 --> 01:08:05,208
I love you too. Mh

1803
01:08:06,083 --> 01:08:06,583
and

1804
01:08:07,038 --> 01:08:09,288
just to think, you know, you asked about

1805
01:08:09,345 --> 01:08:09,822
spirituality,

1806
01:08:10,633 --> 01:08:12,308
you know, to think that I've I've went

1807
01:08:12,308 --> 01:08:14,860
from a hundred and 55

1808
01:08:14,860 --> 01:08:17,674
pounds, not able to eat solid food

1809
01:08:18,131 --> 01:08:18,631
to

1810
01:08:19,009 --> 01:08:19,966
where I am now.

1811
01:08:21,572 --> 01:08:23,800
Eating too much. It's snow a great journey.

1812
01:08:24,038 --> 01:08:26,028
It's been a great journey. It sure has.

1813
01:08:26,266 --> 01:08:27,858
And it's it's great to be on this

1814
01:08:27,858 --> 01:08:31,453
road with you. And Again, many thanks. Absolutely

1815
01:08:31,453 --> 01:08:31,692
ours.

1816
01:08:32,725 --> 01:08:34,817
1 my friends, that's a wrap for today's

1817
01:08:34,873 --> 01:08:37,260
episode of Aa recovery interviews. Thank you for

1818
01:08:37,260 --> 01:08:37,817
tuning in.

1819
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:40,710
If you enjoyed Aa recovery interviews, will you

1820
01:08:40,710 --> 01:08:42,310
please tell others how to listen to it.

1821
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:44,949
It's another helping hand, we can all extend

1822
01:08:44,949 --> 01:08:46,390
to alcoholic everywhere.

1823
01:08:47,202 --> 01:08:48,956
If you want to contact me directly with

1824
01:08:48,956 --> 01:08:50,869
any comments, questions or suggestions,

1825
01:08:51,348 --> 01:08:54,457
simply email howard at hey recovery interviews dot

1826
01:08:54,457 --> 01:08:54,697
com.

1827
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:57,827
By the way, this podcast strictly adhere to

1828
01:08:57,907 --> 01:09:00,943
Aes 12 traditions and all general service office

1829
01:09:00,943 --> 01:09:02,242
guidelines for Safeguard

1830
01:09:02,621 --> 01:09:03,500
anonymity online.

1831
01:09:04,072 --> 01:09:07,325
I pay all production costs. A recovery interviews

1832
01:09:07,325 --> 01:09:09,492
and my guests do not speak for or

1833
01:09:09,547 --> 01:09:10,578
represent A at large.

1834
01:09:11,309 --> 01:09:13,386
This podcast is simply my way of giving

1835
01:09:13,386 --> 01:09:15,543
back to Aa that which has been so

1836
01:09:15,543 --> 01:09:16,662
freely given to me.

1837
01:09:17,381 --> 01:09:19,871
The next episode of a recovery interviews on

1838
01:09:19,871 --> 01:09:22,263
the way, so keep coming back. It'll be

1839
01:09:22,263 --> 01:09:22,822
here soon.