Welcome back to my friends to Aa recovery
interviews. I'm your host, Howard L. And I'm
an alcoholic. Sober since 01/01/1988,
1 day at a time. I'm grateful you've
joined us,
Aa recovery interviews is the podcast where alcoholic
anonymous members from around the world, share their
extraordinary stories of experience, strength and hope.
There are more than 150
awesome interviews in the Aa Recovery interviews podcast
series.
Listen to every episode on any podcast app.
Or at the website, a recovery interviews dot
com.
Each story is a powerful testimony of the
recovery available to all in alcoholic anonymous.
Today is an encore episode of my interview
with Jim H,
originally released in June of 20 21.
Jim has been a sober member of alcohol
synonymous since July 19 96.
My guest on today's podcast, Jim H. Is
1 of those alcoholic whose una drinking, created
serious medical problems
amidst all the other destruction of career and
family.
He did not drink much in high school,
but in college, he was a tide dyed
in the wall hippie, with a pension for
marijuana, Hash,
Lsd, and sell psilocybin mushrooms.
He used amp to achieve academic success,
but it was alcohol that took him down
rapidly
during his early career as an attorney. He
became a daily drinker and was ultimately hospitalized
with alcohol induced cardiomyopathy
that was destroying his heart muscle.
But somehow he survived through white knuckle sobriety
until he felt better, then he drank again,
Jim repeated this pattern over and over until
19 96
when diminishing liver function and gastrointestinal
distress. Made it impossible to nourish his skeletal
body. His bottom reached, he crawled into a
treatment facility and shortly thereafter
into Aa.
I met Jim in as early as days
as of a a nearly 25 years ago.
As with all newcomers, I had no idea
whether this very sick man would make it.
But he kept coming back to the same
meetings I attended. I got to know him
and see demonstrated his ardent desire to stay
sober.
Sponsored by a good friend of mine, Jim
worked the steps and continue to stay in
the middle of the program.
His physical health was restored.
Given the opportunity, Jim has shared about the
bodily destruction that alcohol can cause, even in
the early years of the disease.
Where anyone who slipped to hear Gym story,
they might be moved to make it back
to the rooms of A sooner than later.
The importance of his message cannot be understated.
This is the 20 ninth interview in this
podcast.
I'm certain you will find it of immense
interest. So please enjoy the next hour and
10 minutes of Aa recovery interviews. With my
long time good friend and A brother,
Jim H.
My name Jim and I'm out alcoholic it.
Hi, Jim. Great to see you on Zoom.
That is. Great to hear you on audio
That is. I'm so glad you could be
here today to
join me on the Aa recovery interviews podcast.
You're actually not in Texas here with me
as you normally would be, but you're out
in Mountain view, California.
Mountain view, California.
God. How what's it like out there today?
Freaking gorgeous.
Is there really? Yeah.
I came from the heat in the rain,
and the temperature here during the midday is
normally around 72.
Oh my god. Not a cloud in the
sky and 0 humidity.
Yeah. Yeah. You and I were talking before
about what a clear connection you've got to.
That that the Wifi Is impeccable out there,
And I would expect it to be with
Google. Is Google actually headquartered in Mountain View?
Yes.
Wow. Okay. It's a kind of a Google
company town. Is it really? Yeah.
Well, I know that you've listened to many
of these Aa, recovery interview,
podcasts. Before we get started, I just wanted
to get your feedback on them and and
once you think about this particular approach,
I think it's a great approach. Right? There
are quite a few
other
resources out there where they have.
Mainly Aa talking with each other and things
like that, but never 1 really where people
just kinda tell their stories and and respond
to questions.
And
as we were talking a while back on
my trip back east driving from Houston to
Washington Dc, I listened to a bunch of
these. And, you know, some of the folks
that you did the... I knew already, and
some I did not. Yeah. Even the ones
that I knew I found out new things.
And this just a very relaxing is very
interesting to me something that I can get
into and listen to for
concentrate on without
multitasking. Yeah. That's good to hear. I appreciate
that feedback actually. Actually, you're going to be
interview number 29,
you and I have known each other. Since
you first came into the program, I guess.
And when what year was that? That was
in
19 96.
My Sobriety date was July 30 first.
Yeah. So
I met you
really soon after you came into the program.
Do you remember that? Well, my first... Meeting
was
the meeting at holy name. The investors group.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's where... Well, it's
been told to go by the folks at
and they told me to go there and
get a sponsor. And so that's what I
did.
And I sat next to John, and I
ended up picking,
Sam for no particular reason
as my sponsor. Mh. And so then what
Sam did was take me to a whole
bunch of meetings, and I Oh, yeah. I'd
already picked him as my sponsor, and he's
the 1 that took me to Rose. Right.
Okay. So I do remember 1 of the
first times I actually recognized you was... At
Rose I guess it was. Yes. Yeah. That's
a long time ago. The beautiful thing about
it is, you and I've been going to
the same men's meetings, the same 1 or
2 men's meetings
a week, every week with consistency for, virtually
all that time haven't we. That's right. You
know, the first time I remember you.
Was we at the Sunshine men's group. We
were sitting out there, and
they were having a group conscience
which I... That's when I understood what a
group conscience was
about whether or not to borrow a member
because there had been a fight, Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And you and I were talking about
that. You know, I was looking at... He
was super experienced and you had said, well,
I don't know if I've ever encountered a
situation like this 4. And, so that's that's
when I remember you. That was a meeting
and then I went to virtually every week
for many, many years, and it moved around
a little bit, and I remember that of
the very, very few nights that I missed
that meeting, this bite actually took place
between... 2 guys who normally did not come
to that group. They they were friends of
1 or 2 regulars who came. And so
afterwards, for whatever reason they exchanged words with
each other, and the 1 guy just punched
the other guy in the jaw, whatever it
was, the group conscience was to decide that
neither 1 of those men
was welcome back at that meeting for the
fighting that they did. And
But that's the only time, Jim.
I've seen that there were actually blows exchanged
in an Aa meeting. So... Fortunately, it doesn't
happen very often. No. And and for me
it was like,
I had numerous meetings under my belt at
that time, but I was really new. I
thought, well this Gonna be an interesting experience.
Well, yeah. And so how much different
was hearing that story than hearing the stories
about people fighting while they're drinking and out
drunk. Well, you know, I I actually didn't
know that many folks that got. Drunken fought.
Yeah. The guys I hung around with or
pretty much kinda like me.
And
we would
go out and do some stupid things.
My best friend,
and I were leaving a bar
in Downtown, Washington Dc.
Mh. And it was late at night, and
we were hammered, but we left and we
got rolled by a couple of marines from
the marine base.
And they cold cock my friend and this
actually caused them some significant high damage.
And
you know, they've just sat on me.
While, you know, my friend and the other
guy went at it. And then then the
marines took off, and you know, they just,
basically they didn't like the way they looked.
I think they didn't like the way I
looked. U. More than him because I had
gone long hair.
Whatever, and and they just decided it would
be fun to go punch out.
Gee. I guess it was must have been
fun for them. Not for you though. Yeah.
That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
We're kind of picking up the story in
the middle. Since you just shared something about
drinking at a point which maybe you weren't.
An alcoholic yet. Could we take a look
back at what life was like for you
from maybe the point where you were kid
how you
transitioned into drinking
socially or with friends?
Sure.
I I had a...
Great home environment.
Mh. Good family, great parents
lived in a really nice area. I live...
I grew up in Pittsburgh, Although Yeah. Born
in Dc, and I live pittsburgh and my
dad was a bomber pilot world war 2
never saw service but flu b 17.
There was all action I mean. And it...
So they were the cocktail party generation. You
know, and we lived in the place that
was at the time. Am way outside of
Pittsburgh.
Great little community, but way outside. And so
Mh. There what much to do, and so
people got together and they played bridge. IUI
remember every new year's day, they... People would
come over. My parents friends would come over
and they would have
football watching kind of a party.
And so we're early on, I associated drinking,
watching my parents drink with good times and
for quality. And I never experienced and he
had adverse consequences at all for my parents
drinking.
Mh. But I started to mix sodas. And
I would mix cream soda with root beer
or
orange soda with grapes soda because I saw
my parents mixing drinks.
Oh my gosh. And I wanted to do
that. And Yeah as I became a teenager,
you know, we started to sneak beers and
we would have. Some whiskey and he would
fill the bottle up with water.
I... Yeah. I like the way it made
me feel. And on time, well, you know,
someone had stolen a couple bottles of Scotch.
I had watched my dad make Scotch sour,
and so I made everybody's Scotch sour, and
we got...
My parents were out up for the evening
and we got hammered. Wow, parents came home
and 1 of my friends was passed out
on the garage floor where people had thrown
up all over the house. So we had
to go to the emergency room, and then
1 time, I was at a
Christmas party with my humanity's teacher was giving,
and I got caught by the cops with
a 6 pack.
And so got taken in for that.
And then I went to college and in
college,
I wanted to be a hippie.
And so drinking was
secondary and actually kind of looked down on.
Right? When I got to college, I found
the guy with the longest hair,
I can find. And
I knew about marijuana. And.
I knew I wanted to try it because
hippie tried it, and I really desperately wanted
to be happy.
So we've... You know, I walked up to
him when we found marijuana, and,
you know, I was off to the races.
And I did... Yeah. I drank,
but
it was mainly
we smoked a tom. So... Wanted to just
unpack a few more of the things that
may have contributed later on.
So
the way you
transition to telling me about... College
makes me think that perhaps you were mostly
involved with alcohol during high school or
did you drink during high school or what
would you're experience during high school. You know,
we...
I really didn't drink much, not for want
of trying.
Because we live. Like I said, we lived
in the kind of a self contained community
that was far from a city center.
Right. There wasn't even AAA real mall nearby.
I mean, there are grocery stores.
Pennsylvania has state stores to sell. That's the
only way you could buy liquor. Was to
go to a state store. And the only
way you could buy beer was to go
to a beer distributor
or you had to go to a bar
And so,
you know, I knew of people that had
contacts and always seem to be able to
get thicker.
And I knew once I got to college,
the folks that were younger than me, my
friends, you know, were able to get beer
and c, but we never were.
I mean, it was a really big deal
if someone showed up with a case
of beer. And so, you know, we'd... I
just didn't have the opportunity
to to drink all that much. And so
I did not. I mean, it was
a rare
occasion and and to be thoroughly enjoyed when
someone
you know, knock the bottle or got some
alcohol. Yeah. I get it. So the circumstances
were such that you Even if you had
wanted to, the opportunity just didn't really present
itself to any great degree until you got
to college,
what's interesting about the interviews I've been doing
is I identify with so many different parts
of people's stories, and I didn't really start.
Drinking and using a marijuana until I graduated
from high school and got to college, and
then it was, you know, Katie bar the
door, but
I had exposure to marijuana soon after I
had first started drinking.
It sounds like you did too. The first
time I spoke marijuana I was in my
senior year in high school.
And I was at a party where someone
had it. And
I tried it and
nothing happened. Absolutely. Nothing. Which and actually back
back then, we used to call it smoking
the rope. Yeah. Yeah and... Because literally, it
was about 1 step above smoking rope.
It wasn't until later on in college that
we got decent marijuana. It was all usually
pretty
very low.
Yeah. And get it. You'd smoke, like, as
much until your lungs burned and then you
get a headache and you get hungry. And
that was about it. Yeah. That's that's not
a whole lot of fun. I was able
to start with my older sister and her
first husband Way way. Back then, and he
was kind of an auto of marijuana, and
hash. She always liked Hash. A lot of
hash and So by the time I was
18 19 going into college. I had some
exposure to something a little bit better than
rope. So you get to college and
you get access to much more available
marijuana and booze and other things like that.
Yeah. And we had a lot of hash.
Too. And Mh. I much preferred that.
Alcohol was always there, and and for me,
alcohol was like, an acc
to
marijuana. Mh. I was a legacy. I guess
you... Could they called it in the day
for a attorney alpha tall omega because my
father had been 1 and my grandfather before
him and of course they came out and
wanted me to pledge. Mh. We all looked
down at the... On the juice, because us
hippie. Really? Yeah. That's what's so crazy about
being an alcoholic like because of all the
things that I was concerned
that might take me down because I knew
to in drugs was. U. Dangers. I would
never believed it was alcohol. And so I
never pledged the f fertility because all they
did was drink. Wow. In college, she thought
that I didn't get drunk, but it was
usually company to buy something else. And the
idea of what only being able to use
alcohols.
To me. You know, that's not so different
from my story too because the state University
I went to had very, very act. Of
Greek organizations, and I remember my friends who
were who were drinkers, but not pot smokers,
they all seem to pledge if But because
I was more involved with pot, and the
f at that time were heavily oriented towards
beer and and other
alcohol, like you, I... There was no real
strong attraction for me to to do that
because I thought those guys are really pretty
sloppy. And and they're mean to each other,
because they're all drunk. And me, I'll enjoy
my marijuana, but those guys aren't gonna do
that. So I might as well not join
what was that kinda your thinking as well?
Yeah. And, you know, so I was in
college from 69
to 73.
Back then, most of the f fatalities were...
Still Yeah. We call straight guys. The drug
scene was moving into f,
but it hadn't moved in
that, yeah as much as it eventually did.
Right. Yeah. They were just strike ice, and
I didn't wanna be a straight. I didn't
wanna be
1 of the
short hair, you know, drinking,
you know, white shirt wearing kind guys. Yeah.
How did you become a hippie?
I think my influence there was that I
had my father's side of the family lived
in California.
U.
I loved everything. I... Had read about California,
and the summer of love out here, which
was 67 and the ate ash scene or
really got me into it most was the
music
you know. Jimmy Hendrix was my favorite.
And I liked
I liked it all. And
I remember jimmy me my favorite jimmy Hendrix
Song was if 6 was resign, was just
quite color conservative flashing down the street. Pointed
me
over my kind drop and die. You can't
dress like me. Great. That's great. And that
was it. Is it's like, that was your
own personal hampton I got...
That was my... Yeah. Yeah. Have my pure
I'm gonna have a plate.
Seriously.
Oh my gosh. That's that's a make... Would
did did you... Were you in a band
or did you play any instruments at the
time? Or were you just a listener? No.
I've
In fact, I've got
1 of my
son's guitars behind me and I am still
freaking trying to play. I started to pitch
I I started to try and learn the
guitar when I was at 13.
And
I haven't never progressed even to being able
to do a bar or.
Because I play it for about 6 weeks
and get frustrated. With it
but no. I was never in a band.
I was wanting to be... Any any of
the people I knew who were hippie, and
I I guess I'm kind of... I was
I was a late... Ladder stay. My older
sister was much more a hippie than I
was, and I kinda came in on the
tail end of that.
But I didn't cut my hair for several
years, and those people who know me, know
that my hair doesn't go down, but it
goes out,
to the sides. I had 1 those almost
like an a when I was when I
was in college. But
it seems like a lot of the people
who like that kind of music,
they either taught themselves how to play and
where bands or they were so stoned. They
never got the ambition to do it and
just enjoyed listening better. I guess I was
1 of those guys.
No. I always tried. I would love to
see you without hair. I love hair like
that. My hair was straight,
parted in the middle, and I had it
down. It went well past my shoulder. Oh,
my gosh. Okay. So you were a assertive...
5 hippie at that point. Yeah. How did
you do in college? And in what ways
did being a hippie help or hurt you?
I did fabulous. In college. Really? I graduated
with A392
my major. And for the my first 2
and a half years, I carried a straight
4 0 average.
I was in the honors program in economics.
You know, it started out when I first
got there, everyone told me how card college
was. And so my first term, I worked
my ass off form study groups and everything
and I got A40. Wow, and I did
the same thing. The next term and got
4 0, my and by the third term,
which was the spring term,
I have back off a little bit, And
I still gone a flu,
And so for the rest of my college
career, it was seeing out little work I
could do is so get A40. And I
mainly attribute my grades
especially in the last couple years to Amp.
Oh, okay. You know, I would miss class
and then not do the assignments, and I
was blessed with
a temporary,
kind of a transient
photographic memory.
And so I could go through the books
and I could stay up nights in a
row,
longest as I stayed up was, like, for
Monday to Friday.
And just, you know, and then go in
and take the test and I remember my
got question because I would reproduce the,
answers to the test. I would reproduce the
section of the book came.
Wow.
And so... But but, you know, so I
graduated in 392 and and the way being
a hippie did it was...
You know, my father
hated my long hair. My professors hated my
long hair,
but is like yeah and kiss my ass.
You know. Yeah. I have A40.
That's the way they... The that I did
it. As defiance. They couldn't deny that could
they. I... You're just the... Long haired to
hip with with the smarts, I guess. Now
you you mentioned amp,
Okay. So were you a regular
or daily,
pot smoker as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And
it was mainly pot and Hash that we
did every day.
I did Psychedelics.
It's like when it was good. It was
really, really, really good. I'm talking about, like
Lsd. Yeah.
Lsd,
It was mainly Lsd. Mh
I've done so psilocybin as whole other story,
and Yellowstone southern parker of all things, and
Pe, which I did in law school which
is pretty interesting. But I didn't do a
lot of them. I think you have to
have a very strong kind of ego in
mind. Mh. He'd be able to go through
that and not lose it and 1 of
my friends did. He got to doing it
very frequently and it was just just tearing
them up. So I guess I did Lsd
maybe
15 plus times, maybe? I never did Lsd.
I never did any kinda Iv drug. A
number of my friends were doing it. And
whenever it was offered, I turned it down
because I didn't know whether I was 1
of those type of people who could handle
it, But did you ever have in later
years those flashbacks that people talk about from
the Lsd? No. You know, I was lucky.
And that's all it was I think it
was luck. I never had flashbacks.
I never had any kind of
bad trip.
I had some trips were better than others.
But never had a a bad trip at
all. Honestly, I had some
fabulous experiences,
Yeah. The time in Yellowstone, I mentioned,
I did Me went the march on the
Washington.
In 19 71, the V w,
and there's 200000
hippie in the Washington Dc.
So, I mean, honestly, I don't regret any
of the drugs I did. I marijuana a
little bit that I did it so often
because I've missed out on a lot of
things that I could have done. Yeah. I
find that marijuana kinda messed with my decision
making to a certain extent because
I was so comfortable not making decisions that
when I had to make them. I made
them probably based on some of the wrong
information. I mean, I think I got through
life okay as
despite all that, but it's it's interesting that
that your
memories of the
Lsd or the mushrooms or the Pe or
or marijuana even for that matter is not
1 that is all that negative. No. The
only negative I had, like, just as as
an example, Penn state had all these fabulous
half living facilities.
That I never really avail myself off. Yeah.
They had lots of other kind of extra
extracurricular
things that you could do that Yeah. Would
have been fun. But, you know, I was
getting stoned to listening to music. And you
were still getting good grades. So you started
out... Kinda early on, let's say at the
age of 18 as a functional drug user,
alcohol user without too many negative consequences then.
No. I didn't really have any. You know,
dealt drugs. Oh, you did. Oh, yeah. Mainly
as a way to
offset the cost.
Of my own,
things. And, you know, also because it was
a counter thing to do was before it
became
what was turning into a business. Yeah. By
the end of my time there. U. But
before it was just, like, I dealt drugs
because
I could sell some and then turn on
all of my friends. So you went from
Penn state onto to law school. Did you
have the same kind of experience in law
school where you were able to sail through
it without too much trouble? Yeah. I still
used Amp
study. I did not get A40 in law
school because law School was... I found it
to be several degrees harder than undergrad, but
I did well. U.
You know, I I still had the same
memory.
Share with me your recollection, Jim, if you
would from getting out of law school to
the point at which...
You first noticed that you had a problem
either with alcohol or drugs and alcohol. I
started to turn to alcohol, a lot more
in law school.
I had been engaged to be married to
this girl that I had gone out within
in college.
And she broke off that engagement the summer
prior to my going to law school. Mh.
And so I was down there in this
apartment that we had gotten or I got
for both of us prior and I it
was far away from the loss. It's loud
and bethesda. Mh. Nice apartment, but funky funky
area.
And so I was
outside of the student kind of activity in
law school, plus my access to drugs had
diminished because I was in a new environment.
I'd I didn't know a lot of people.
And also, I didn't have any
I didn't have many pos and didn't have
any friends.
And so that's when I started to drink
with a purpose. And I remember I buy
a a bottle whiskey,
and I used to do that, drink that
at night and it was just me and
my dog and this breakup up, hit me
and I was suffering because of that. The
purpose of drinking there was to drown the
feelings?
Yeah. Kinda and so I could sleep you
know, and and stuff like that. You know,
that... That's when I really started strength. Mh.
Was was in law school, And it became
an ending in itself rather than an adjunct
to getting higher marijuana. And, you know, most
of the folks in law school,
they smoke marijuana, but took me a while
to have any interaction with them. Mh. And
most of them thought I was an asshole
because of the way I dressed.
I, you know, I came in. This was
kind of the David Bowie phase. Oh, yeah.
I showed up in platform sneakers
platform foot platform sandals and, oh and span
socks and this really long hair. U. And
I I had this hundred pound off that
I take the class.
And know, and, again, I was still in
this thing, Like, you know, these these guys
had all gotten there haircut from law school.
Sure. And they're in their little ties and
stuff. And I was like, fuck. Yeah. Yeah.
You're... All you if you think you're more
than a number or you're mistaken? Yeah. So
you had ignition so to speak. Oh, no
more like the find. But defiance. Okay. But
I've met a couple guys in in law
school that turned out to me my best
friends but they love to drink too. I
see. So that's where I really started.
You mentioned amp,
were you doing as many
and law schools you did in undergrad and
how did they interact with your drinking at?
That point. I didn't have any real compulsory
to drink
at that time.
If it was in time for testing,
you know. At I would do the in
and I would study and I wouldn't drink
until after the test were over. And so
I didn't do as many, but that's because
Mh. You know, we were on a master
system instead of a term system. So we
only had, you know, 2 sets of midterms
and final ways. Mh a year 73. Mh.
So that was really the only difference. So
is it safe to say that your drug
use was... Going down while your
alcohol use was going up. Big time. Yeah.
Mh. Yeah. We still would smoke. Mh. When
we could. But lot of the the consequences
of
being caught with marijuana when you're in law
school had had impressed itself from all of
us. Me less so than others. But, you
know, I still smoke and I still kinda
preferred that. But I found that I didn't
prefer smoking alone because That won't lead
me to bad thoughts about my breakup and
stuff like that. So you you found this
group of guys that you could hang with
while you were... Smoking,
marijuana and drinking at that point. How did
that drinking then progress or follow you out
of law school? And what were your early
years like with that in your life. You
know, by the third year in law school
While I was drinking a long. And
It still wasn't affecting my academic performance, but
I dropped out a term of law school.
And I was kinda burned out just from
taking tests
and I work for a moving company that
moves Xerox machines. Wow. And I don't know
quite how I found this job.
I don't remember. But I remember I cleared
99 dollars a week. You know, you know,
these guys are all hard part too. So
I found...
Another group of younger guys. Mh.
And including another guy that became... Like, I
call on my second best friend, You know.
We just drank and drank a drank. And
I also met my
first wife when I was in law school.
U. And
you know, she
wasn't a part nearly like me, you know,
that took my mind off my first girlfriend.
The college girlfriend friend,
But, yeah, It was... Yeah, I would say
that by the time I was in my
third year of law school, my decision making
about every aspect of my life.
Other than academic performance
was being beginning to be affected by alcohol.
Yeah. I found that to be the case
as well. It seemed like towards the end
of my college years. The drinking and the
use of marijuana and other drugs at that
time. They affected it to the point that
all I wanted to do was get out
earn enough money to be able to continue
to do that
without any kind of interference. So you went
for your final year in law school, and
then you sat for the bar after that?
Yeah. I took the bar exam. You know,
I had been so out of the mainstream
at law school. I I think I thought
that, someone would then just kinda Mh. Call
me or knock on my door and say,
look, we just thought... We understand you graduated
from George Tom and we'd like to hire
you and pay you a fortune.
So I missed out on the whole, wow
interview process.
Wow, everyone that knew what they were doing
and had a whole. All these job interviews.
But I didn't even have 1. I got
my first job out of law school off
a a, index card that was posted on
a bulletin board,
and it turned out to be a great
job.
But
I went to work for an energy consulting
firm.
As a as an assistant general counsel. Man
it was a good job. Is that where
you first started specializing in that kind of
law?
Yeah.
I I took oil own gas law. George
Chan only offered 1 loan gas law course.
And I liked it. And
I I worked with this energy consulting firm,
and that was right when they had oil
price regulations. Oh, yeah. Us back at nixon
time and inflation was crazy. And so he
froze prices nationwide,
and then they found out r off that
the driving factor and inflation was energy prices.
And so what began as a temporary program
turned into a permanent 1 and
every facet
petroleum prices from crude oil all the way
up through product, you know, gasoline Right. Price
price controlled. And there's says complex
administrative nonsense that was
around all that, and I I worked on
that, and wow. We're that. And, you know,
I liked it. So you kinda became a
specialist from that experience?
Did that specialty kind of follow you throughout
your your career?
Yeah. So, you know, when I finally moved
to Houston,
consulting firm kind of imp. Yeah And I
went to work with...
Another large blue stocking type normal law firm.
I hated them, and they hated me. And
why? Why did they hate you?
Because...
Because I was working.
Why weren't you working?
I it's gotta be a thread in here
somewhere because I was
I was drinking most of the time, and,
you know, we had tried to start a,
energy practice of another friend of mine. He
had formed a law offer and. I work
to work with famine and then we merged,
and
crude oil price control. We're getting phased out
offer And so my whole... You know, all
this knowledge that I have basically useless. You
know, we couldn't generate... This was not an
energy law firm. This was Yeah. East Coast
law firm, and,
you know, we couldn't generate any legal business.
And so they had me moved to... They
were a federal
communications law firm, and so they had... Me
try to move to this kind of immediate
practice.
Which I didn't, you know, I. I'd never
really got.
This is an example. Every Friday they would
have a happy hour.
And it would be held in this rich
panel
library,
and there'd be the bar set up and
the lawyer are sitting around talking,
and all the secretaries would be having their
own happy hour and the little lunch flowers
in the lunch.
After being in the panels, study or...
Yeah. I well, I would go go there
and pour my drink and go to the
lunch. You must have been a popular guy.
Oh, yeah. And
I I'd go out for,
drink heavily at lunch, you know, stuff like
that. And it was getting to be a
real problem by that time. And
you know, I got married by that time
And Mh. My son was born,
and,
you know, so I lost my job,
and
he was,
show an infants.
We'll be right back.
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And we're back.
You lost your job over the drinking and
over the behavior,
at at that time. Did anybody confront you
with that? Or or did you get an
inkling that there was some connection between all
that going on and you're drinking at No.
I think honestly, if we had been able
to pull in business and been able to
pay for us. Themselves they would have cared.
Yeah. Because I was always able to pretty
much put in the hours even as I
was coming into the Aa and 96 phelps
I was still able to. Pulling in the
hours. And be a profitable person. So when
you say pulling in the hours, you're talking
about billable hours with clients who are willing
to pay you for the work that you're
doing. Right. What I couldn't do is obtain
clients. Okay. And that's all. Another thing. They
never tell you about law school is that,
you know, people just don't wander her around
and think my. You know? There's this guy
named Jim. And I think I'll call them
and pay them 300 dollars an hour to
do something. The marketing of of that is
the challenges into Yeah. So 1 of my
guess on the show who also was a
ernie suggested that 1 of the reasons why
there seemed to be a lot of alcoholism
within that particular
profession is because being a lawyer tends to
be a very all assuming job that you're
working very, very long hours and weekends and
and all that sort of stuff. So the
drink may be the only real release that
you have and so it tends to be
overdo. Is that a reasonable statement or did
you find something different?
You know, I think that's probably a reasonable
statement, I can say that
I was
on the way there
before I got it became an attorney. I
get it. Okay. You know, I was already
experiencing horrible hangover and things like that. And
I remember I I spent a summer a
while in Law school. I spent a summer
working for a car and I would roll
in
so hung over,
and I would kind of say I gotta
go to the library and I'd go
across the capital to the senate office building
into their reading room in Pass.
No, my And, you know, stuff like that.
But, you know, wow there, I did good
enough work that I turned a. 1 month
internship into all all all summer. So in
many aspects,
like, a number of other guests I've had
on the show, you were a functional drinker.
Would you have labeled yourself an alcoholic, looking
back now at where you were then? Would
you say you were an alcoholic at that
point? Yes. Knowing what I know now back
then, I think I had an inkling that
I was a little different. U. I used
to go out with a girl. And she
was a registered nurse, and she's the first
1 that said she thought I was now
alcohol. How many years was that before you
actually came into Aa. Probably
about... 15. So somebody who you knew and
and let's say trusted
suggested the problem that you already had and
gave it a name. How did you react?
To that. What did you think about her
saying that and about the fact that you
might be an alcoholic? Well, it was all...
At first, III didn't believe I didn't to
Yeah. I was ind.
So your friend told you this,
things were going on in the job that
might have given you, An inkling of the
path that you were headed down. So you
headed down that path anyway?
Yeah. III
got my first. Well, actually my only. UTI
say. At about that time. It was... I
got put in the back of a patty
wagon and
and the bad part of it was as
I had probably a little wonder a half
an hour there marijuana in my pocket. I
was, you know, taken down to the station,
And I had tried to develop this way
of getting out of handcuffs. And so I
was in the back of the patty wagon
with this guy that was passed out.
And I could see my whole brewery going
down the drain with this marijuana. And so
I was trying to... Almost had the... I
was gonna throw it on the floor and
and blame it on him.
And they saw me moving and looked me
out and they pat me down and the
guy felt it and he squeezed the bag.
And didn't do anything. And then I got
to the station, and the arresting officer was
there and instead of being upset I was...
I'm sure I was over the D limit,
but I was completely lucid
and tried to be as pleasant as I
could and talk to him, and I told
him it was my bachelor party
evening which,
it wasn't, but that's what I told him.
And so somehow, I've managed to avoid the
general.
They give everybody. Wow.
And and so I... That was that, and
they back then, they put you into a
diversion program where Had to go to, like,
an alcohol awareness class. I'd say for 6
weeks or something. So you dodged a career
ending bullet with the guy who checked your
pockets and... Squeeze the the pot and did
nothing. Right. And you were able to get
through that by being a pretty nice guy
at the station so they didn't do the
strip search,
You must have felt a terrific amount of
relief even though you had to do the,
the program, the 6 week program afterward.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it would have
been a complete disaster. It was...
Yeah. There was only really 1 other time
where I was ever that. Close that was
why I was in Law school. So that
happens to you, in looking back, did you
look at that situation say, well, I better
stop doing that? Or
what did you chalk that up to bad
luck or how did you process that at
the time?
I chalk it up to kinda of bad
luck. U. You know, I had done all
kinds of crazy things.
I drove my vol volkswagen up the steps
of the Jefferson Memorial once.
And
and
policeman when a park policeman came out as
I was driving down, and he was just
in enraged.
And he was screaming at me about how
I couldn't do that, and I kept just
screaming back. I said, I'm trying to get
to 95 why don't gift have size,
where 95 South when he pointed,
and I just went that 1, and that
was that.
So... Oh my gosh.
Stuff like that. So, you know, so I
just talked it up as to bad luck
because you know, I'd had the pre drinking
before I was on my way to the
rural part Yeah. When I got stopped. Yeah.
I think after the class,
maybe I tried to slow down a little
bit. Mh. I honestly don't remember if if
I did it wasn't wasn't much. Did they
present
options to you and was Aa ever talked
about or recommended in that program? I don't
remember that. Mh.
I'm remembering right, they showed us is like
the driving when the had drivers in, show
you all those horrible crashes. Mh. If And
there was, of the guy that taught it
was a very nice man. I think he
was 1 of us
that was teaching him. And he began this
like, you know, I'm not gonna say that
you have a problem. Yeah. Or anything like
that, but you're here because, you know,
it obviously caused you a problem and Yeah.
Stuff like that. And Yeah. You know, most
most people that didn't most people were young,
and they they didn't take them seriously at
all. And I... To me, it was just
kind of a what my tenants were getting
caught. There So you were married. You had
a child. You were working here in Houston.
Can you kind of walk us up the
road to 19 96.
Sure. So on my own in Washington, Dc.
U. And
I actually started to load trucks again.
Because we had bought this house, and I
had a new baby.
And
I knew this guy, who was a counselor
for Pens. Mh.
And he and I got to know each
other okay. And he had arranged for me
to come down an interview with Penn. As
as General Counsel. And so I came to
Houston and did that.
And at the time, I literally, couple days
before I flew in, Penn got acquired by
T. Right. And
that changed the whole dynamic,
they sent me up to New York interview,
and I blew that interview because I was...
Too hungover over. Oh, my. U. And so
this guy knew a guy who knew a
guy, a long story short. There was a
small law firm in Houston
that was doing... They they did securities work,
and they're creating a lot of limited
partnerships for oil and gas
exploration. And they had no 1 who new
oil and gas law. And so I told
them my new oil and gas law, which
I didn't. Mh. I had to had 1
course. Oh okay. But I talked a good
enough game where I came down and they
hired me. Mh. And that was in 19
83.
And so I moved down without my wife
and son
and moved down and lived here in an
apartment. I started working for them. Mh. And
then... Right. Sure. They came down after a
year. And I worked from them from 19
83.
Probably till
19
94.
U. Then that firm basically
exploded.
And I went with 1 of the partners
I went with him, and I was working
with him when I came into the program.
So during that 11 year period, whenever your
wife and... Child came down. You work from
83
until 94.
Was your drinking escalating or was it staying
the same or had you created a pattern
of drinking and working that sustained you through
that time. Oh, wait it escalated it big
time. At at 19 86.
You know, I I remember people with partners
at work would comment on me drinking beer
in the morning and oh my stuff like
that. U. The only reason I I was
able to stay long was I was able
to, you know, build the hours.
But 19 86, I got hospitalized.
And
went in and they did a heart thing,
art scan, and all that, and they
they put me directly into intensive care.
And said that I had something called
alcoholic.
Cardiomyopathy.
It's basically where you've drinking so much. It's
to attack the heart muscle, or your heart
muscle.
And they said that I had destroyed
between a quarter and a third of my
heart muscle. Oh my gosh.
And that I would never get it back
and 1 of the things I used to
do was I used to love to run.
And so I can't pee an alcohol. Like,
I can run 6 miles. You know? Right.
U. And they thought I couldn't run
I couldn't, you know, I needed to find
a lower impact kind of lower stress job.
U. And so I was in intensive care
for 6 days, and then Got out. And
stopped drinking and stopped running and cut my
hours back, and U.
I began slowly to jog and and run
again. U. Finally, after 6 months,
I was with my wife when we went
to a rockets game and I thought, I
have a beer. Mh. And I did. And
I was off to the races again. Wow.
And it took a while this time. I
was careful with it, and
I don't have beer than I only have.
Would only drink on weekends. And U. It
just gradually escalated through the next 10 years.
But I had probably 3 or 4 years
there where I was
drinking but not not crazy like it was
before. So you became a temporary moderate drinker
then for that... For the period of 3
to 4 years. Probably a temporary heavy drinker.
But... Yeah. A temporary heavy drink drinker. Okay.
But not alcoholic drink. Okay. I get it.
So after that period and you picked up
again. And you
you went even further down the tubes at
that point. Yeah.
So the law firm broke up, and then
I was working with the 1 guy and
by that. Time by 95 96.
I was completely physically addicted. Mh. You know,
I was no longer drinking to
make myself feel good. I was only drinking
not to feel bad.
I remember that why I could still type.
And I could just do. Right. Wrote them
all my best stuff legally back then. My
motor coordination was so going. I couldn't sign
my name. Oh my goodness. You know, I
would... Drinking the morning on the way. If
I if I didn't drink by 03:00 in
the afternoon, I would be,
my clothes would be, like, faster to my
body.
I've being a cold sweat.
And
yeah. It was brutal it was brutal To
what did your disease attribute that to? Did
you know that it was the disease that
was doing it? Or were you convinced it
might be something else? No. I knew that
I was screwed.
How is at that place where everyone talks
about is that you know you gotta do
something and should do something, but you can't.
And, physically, I
I couldn't do it. Yeah. The cardiomyopathy
that that you'd been diagnosed with 10 years
before, did that? Come back or did that
get worse or better? Seems to me if
you had it then, another 10 years of
heavy drinking, you would be dead somewhere along
the way. Well, that's what it was bizarre.
So... U. After I had that diagnosis and
I was seeing the doctor all the time
and all that stuff. I came in 1
time, and I had started to run again,
and and he did the scan,
and he looked at me with this look
on his face. And says you're cured. Oh
my gosh. And,
you know, my wife
and my son both attributed that to literally
a miracle.
Because, this this guy said I was... My
heart was damaged,
and they had the test to prove it,
and I was I back
you know, and I was running stronger than
ever before. U. He couldn't explain it. And
to me, of course, I thought, you know,
in my craziness, I, of course, I.
Why why I I knew this wasn't gonna
keep me down. And Yeah. So I didn't
have that. I have
what it caused was a a
fibrillation and nature of fibrillation. Mh. That's what
it left me with. And I have that
to this day. And 95 96.
It's not the cardiomyopathy. The... You still may
have had the atrial fibrillation, but
it was other factors that were affecting you
physically to the... Extent that you were shaking
and having other physical problems.
When I finally
went to see a doctor,
the only... Physical issues I had were Have
had accidentally add liver issues. The the only
physical issues I noticed or all
alcohol related. I see. Okay. Either either the
shakes or the sweats or U. You know,
whatever. I think I operated probably well above
the legal limit, 24 7, by that time.
Did you find that it was affecting your
cognitive skills or were you were you still
able to function cognitive?
I was able to function cognitive.
Yeah. That could been a real curse at
the time then right? What what it did
was
I was very re about driving anywhere.
Because you, you know, if it was any
distance to drive.
I knew I could make it without drinking.
Yeah. So you get to 95 96.
As I recall you said something about being
hospitalized.
What what was that about? Or maybe you
didn't. Maybe I've just heard that in your
story over the years, and I just imagined
you said it. No. I was hospitalized again.
U.
It got to the point where the only
thing I could think of to do
was try... To try and recreate what had
happened at 86.
Which is where I'd had gone into the
hospital
in intensive care.
Mh. Cleaned up and came out, and I
got, like, another 10 year license.
Drink. Okay. And so I went to a
family doctor. My family doctor was a good
guy. Mh. And kinda told him what was
going on.
And he wanted to send me treatment, but
I insisted that the only thing I would
let him do was to put me in
the hospital for what I called gas.
I see. Yeah. And so
that's what he did. I I remember very
well.
I was admitted,
on the... I think July t. Mh. And
before I went into the hospital while I
was sitting there in my car
drinking a bottle of pop off, vodka.
Straight out of the bottle.
And
you know, I finally went in and checked
myself in,
and they put me with a some
a room with some guy that kept screaming.
Oh my god. Oh, so I said, get
me out of here, so they put me
up in the oncology ward. U. And I
was there for the t
30 first, which was my first day sober,
and I think I got out the first
of the second. U. You know, so they
had basically dried me out. They gave me
Equilibrium.
And I remember this I... I was so
weak,
that I could not get out of bed
by myself to go to the bathroom.
So I'd have a guy come and help
me. Mh.
And
I got out and they
had, like, a doctor that specialized in livers
came to see me and
Had up.
Appointments with him and my
Gp came in.
I just remember him tapping me on this
chest
because he had finally understood what I was
trying to do and he said you're you're
doing the right thing. This was the right
thing that you did. Right. And and I
got out. And I was just
just lost. Just lost.
I weighed a hundred hundred and 60 pounds,
hundred and 55,
Wow, which is we were really skinny. So
you get out 3 days later,
did you still have the cravings? I mean...
No. The physical cravings...
Or gone. But,
you know, I almost remember that time is
like, like, this period of, like, fear in
a desert where the sun is so bright.
Everything is quite. Right. And that's actually what
I I've I just felt like, I've been
burnt clean. Mh. And that was nothing really
about a shell. I thought my life was
over Mh.
The liver doctor told me that I remember
you said, if you drink again, you're gonna
die, you know, your liver tests are off
the charts.
And
even then my response was kinda like, yeah.
Sure. I've heard that before. Mh. But for
whatever reason I didn't try to drink.
But I I just thought, you know, this
is just, you know, I'll, I'm too scared
to kill myself. Mh.
And so I'm just gonna continue on this
bleak mindless existence until I die. And not
drink. And and,
you know, see what happened, but I knew
Under something in me told me I couldn't
drink that. Well, I couldn't hold anything down.
That's why I'd really gone to the doctor
in the first place. U. Is I was
unable to hold. Something anything down. Wow. Even
alcohol, Would have a hard time holding down.
U. And I was eating, like, bread and
water,
and that was the only thing I could
hold down. Hence myself diagnosis for gas.
But well, liver doctor e develop method treatment,
which was very successful with me. Mh. It
was kind of experimental, but he got my
liver function back to normal very quickly. Wow.
And
but I couldn't eat for a while, and
so I just kinda, you know, I was
off work. U. I Was just kinda lost.
So at that point, you mentioned that, you,
you were in a treatment center. How long
were you there? So I had a client.
U. That
it was also a friend of mine. U.
That had gone to the club he and
his wife. U. And the next had a
couple of their ever clear bar.
Right. Like 11. And then the next thing
he remembers,
there's a, 4 Ben Constable next to him
with her way out in 4 Bend County.
U. And he's noon. And his wife is
moved. And he's dragging her by the feet
up this road, Oh my god. And so
they put him in jail, and
this was swallow I was still drinking. U.
Oh, they put him in jail. And his
wife
was wondering whether to press charges for domestic
violence and stuff like that. I was all
all agreed,
And I got a friend of mine who
as Bottle was angry that she wouldn't if
he went to treatment.
Okay. And I went to see him there.
U. And so that...
I remembered that. U. And so,
maybe a week plus so after I got
out of the hospital,
I went to treatment. So you went to
the treatment center within days after getting out
of the hospital.
I wanna say a week or 2. So
your sobriety date was within that first part
of that week. Right. No last Friday date
was the first night in the hospital. I
I found this. I guess maybe I shouldn't
because I was still on Libya.
But that was the first 24 hours I
had that alcohol. Okay. So you went from
the hospital
to the treatment center.
Within the first week or at about a
week later? And how long were you at
the treatment center? I I went in
they wanted to do inpatient, and I said,
no. And so they accepted me as outpatient.
So
I did the outpatient thing which was still,
like, what, 3 nights week for 3 hours
a night and plus Saturdays.
Mh. And I did that. And
I actually found that I liked it. Was
that your first exposure to Then? Yes. Yeah.
I see. And.
You know, I was within the... About a
bunch of girls were in my group
that were mainly nurses that they got caught
for some pills some stuff like that. And
so they... Right. And this was also the
time when, you know, insurance covered all this
stuff, and it was... They straightened up all
over the place, but Yeah. So I did
that. And
that's what eventually led me to Aa. So
you came to Aa. Now when you got
out of the treatment center.
Were you sufficiently ind with what Aa was
about and the necessity of meetings to go
on your own at that point? No. I
was actually, I think... I don't know if
I was out of the treatment center still
going, but it was at 1 of the
Saturday morning kinda after care of things.
That Mh.
They insisted that I go to an Aa
meeting.
And so my first Aa meeting was 1
night Where people from the outside would come
in. Right? Yeah mainly guys patrol for, you
know, responsibilities.
So I went to that and I enjoyed
it, and
I remember Mark pee,
insisted that I go Mh.
Outside to an A meeting,
and strongly suggested holy name
and absolutely insisted that I get a sponsor.
He said, don't come back without 1, and
he impressed upon me
that,
which, you know, rightly or wrongly I have
followed is that I I had to ask
someone,
You, I I should not take accept. Yeah.
A request to be someone sponsored. I had
to go up and introduce myself and ask.
Right. And so I did not want to
do that, but I did it, and that's
how I ended up with Sand. Yeah. Well,
that is an important thing to. I remember
there used to be it. An old timer
for years. He would say, you you have
to wait for them to ask you because
the process of doing that is a a
humbling experience, and humility is what they need
at that point.
And they don't need to be enabled. They
need to have some humility. So I get
that, and that's pretty important to to be
asked. So So you're going to aa now,
and
what are some of the the milestones
along the way that
severely challenged or
pulled it your sobriety in a way that
you would worried about maybe slipping or
you know, I gotta say,
other than the normal
issues
pretty much anyone has when they first come
in,
is are little things like Mh. Driving past
the 07:11 and not stopping for a beer.
Yeah.
Not going to liquor store. Yeah.
Not going to the bars.
Right. That happened early on. I've gone through
quite a bit. U. And
I've never felt.
Threatened.
And and
for that, I have to thank, well, mike...
That's great. Sponsors,
mainly Sam
and then the fellowship?
Yeah. U. Yeah. Yeah. How about the spiritual
end of the program? How does that work
for you over the years?
I wish I were more spiritual. I don't
feel spiritual. Yeah.
I wish I believe more. It's an issue
that I have. Right. So, you know, for
me is, you know, I go on about
my life concerned about my own
stuff and other people's stuff.
Pretty much day by day. So I don't
feel like I have Mh.
A per spiritual. I know there is 1,
but I don't feel it as much as
I would like to. Yeah. I I like
to ask that question, and I'm intentional about
it because I don't want people
taking a look or listening to
your story and then making assumptions about what
your spiritual life must be like. So I
I appreciate you saying what you said, and
and we all have our own ways of
working the program with regard to the
spiritual end of it as well.
The things that you've gone through while you've
been sober and in a a...
You've been able to get through them without
seriously being champ or feeling like you were
in danger or perhaps away from the herd.
Yeah. So I mean, I got divorced and
remarried. Yeah. I challenged,
lost both parents. Mh. We got mail, flooded
out,
and this issue latest, which is the worst
1 with my son,
and I've never really felt Yeah. All saying
there's, you know, what good is drinking gonna
do.
Right. And the other thing I always fall
back on is
if I thought a drink might do something.
Right. I might be interested. It, but I
have no interest in having a drink or
Mh. I want, like 40.
And
and and I know where that goes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's
not a good outcome, certainly by by any
measure.
Then I like to also ask about any
of the gifts that you can point to
that you could look back on and say,
if I hadn't been sober. I'm... I this
sort of thing would never have happened in
my life. Honestly, pretty much everything.
Literally. I mean, forget...
Yeah. I'd be dead with this for... Even
the iv and that. Yeah. You know, I
am right now sitting
with my son in Mountain view
if I hadn't gotten sober, I wouldn't have
that relationship. At.
I am happily married. Right. And I also
get along very well with my ex. I
would have none neither of those relationships at
all.
I was able to... My dad and I
never really had. Mh. A bad relationship. But,
you know, I felt... I was able to
tell him. Mh.
Before he died. He said, He said, how
are you doing?
And I was able to tell him with
complete sa the best I've ever done.
And my mom got to see that too.
So all these things are... And my mom,
my my dad didn't really understand the program.
Because I remember he'd played white knuckle it.
And and... But my mom understood
almost intuitive. Yeah. And
she was very happy.
You know, I've got a relationship with my
sister, which I never had before. Mh. You
know, a sister that was the bane of
my existence growing up, is, you know, now
we we go on vacations together.
I'm I'm happily married. And I have relationships
with my daughters. Yeah. And their husbands and
their kids, my grandkids,
all this. I never would have had. And
I'm healthy. I'm bling off. I wouldn't had
that. So, literally,
monet
you know, I was able to retire. You
know, I went from having
no money
and owned the credit cards,
you 80 some thousand dollars
to having money where I'm able to retire.
U. And and fly out and see my
son, and it's just
Crazy. That's that crazy. Yeah. And those gifts
never stop coming when you stay sober and
involved in the program.
That's exactly. Yeah. The beautiful thing that I've
noticed about you over the years, Jim, is
that you've always been a meeting maker. And
of the people that I... Can usually count
on to see in certain meetings, you're 1
of them.
And I... The thing I've noticed in the
past several years is can with regard to
wanting of your sponsors, just how important
you have been in his life in helping
him get through some very very difficult things.
And
I I sometimes think we're better off measuring
ourselves by what impact we have on other
people as opposed to what impact we have
on ourselves. Yeah. I think that. You know,
I've only ever
sponsored 2 people, and I kinda feel bad
about that, but at the same time, I
said, you know, well only 2 people have
ever asked, being both of them have been
through you. 1 was will.
And,
honestly, I didn't know what I was doing.
Well, I trying sponsor
I had no freaking clue, but Wills
sober and he's fabulous He's a fabulous guy.
My other guy, you know, spots. That's amazing.
His soap. You know, he he and I
talked the night before last, and U. He's
he's doing doing well. And he's had some
significant. U. Challenges.
And he's he's gone right through. And if
I've even had a little bit of that,
that's a blessing for me. Well, yeah. And
and you've been... I know you've been a
blessing in his life and
and it's been important to help keep you
sober. You've been a blessing in my life
too. I I want you to know that.
You're a a good friend and somebody who
I feel, good when I'm around, and it's
so beautiful for us and finally be back
at the point where maybe we can go
into some of these live meetings again,
and get a chance to see eyeball to
eyeball,
sit knee a knee. That's always a good
thing. It's been wonderful. Oh, it has been,
You know, III...
When I see you even before you begin
the the reading, which I think is great.
It's just like, this is kinda where I
belong, This is gonna be fun.
And that's the way I feel. And that's
the like, you you and Yeah. You make
me feel. It's like,
especially some of the bizarre. Stuff we saw
in the early meetings. You know.
Oh, I know it. I know it. We
we both saw a lot of stuff going
on.
But a lot of those people are still
sober. Some aren't, and
they work their programs as they work them,
but I've always admired the way you've worked
your program, and
it's been a real honor and pleasure to
share Aa with you and know that it's
having as big of an impact on your
life. As it is mine, and
I'm thrilled that you were able to do
this today. I knew I wanted to have
you on. That's something I've known since I
first as contemplate doing this show. So thank
you so much for doing this, Jim. This
has just been a marvelous
opportunity for us to
get together. I love you, and I respect
you. And,
the last thing I would add is is
thank you for for asking me.
I love you too. Mh
and
just to think, you know, you asked about
spirituality,
you know, to think that I've I've went
from a hundred and 55
pounds, not able to eat solid food
to
where I am now.
Eating too much. It's snow a great journey.
It's been a great journey. It sure has.
And it's it's great to be on this
road with you. And Again, many thanks. Absolutely
ours.
1 my friends, that's a wrap for today's
episode of Aa recovery interviews. Thank you for
tuning in.
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please tell others how to listen to it.
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If you want to contact me directly with
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