Welcome back my friends to Aa Recovery interviews.
I'm your host, Howard A, and I'm an
alcoholic. Silver since 01/01/1988,
1 day at a time. I'm grateful you've
joined us.
Aa recovery interviews is the podcast where Out
hoax and anonymous members from around the world,
share their extraordinary stories of experience, strength and
hope.
There are more than 150
interviews in the podcast series, all of which
you can enjoy on a recovery interviews dot
com and all podcast apps.
This
Sex drugs and rock and roll were more
than a cliche in the life of Elliot
m. My guest on this episode of Aa
recovery interviews.
As a prominent rock musician and song writer
for years before his alcoholism drove him into
alcoholic synonymous.
Elliott drinking ran parallel to his rise to
start him.
Ironically, his best song right in performances were
largely free from the influence of alcohol and
drugs. But off state, his drinking and drug
were d every facet of his life. His
descent to the bottom occurred during the 5
years preceding his 19 85 sobriety day. Each
Like many of his conte, Elliott career had
soared in the midst of his functional alcoholism.
Before Booze became the male factor hell bent
on ruining his life.
With his options running out, the answer to
his prayer for release finally showed up in
the form of a simple Aa questionnaire given
to him by the woman he would later
marry.
After his last drink, Elliott ent entree into
Aa launched a new life in which sobriety
is his number 1 priority.
His relocation to paris 35 years ago allowed
him to continue active
participation in Na and performances for his European
fans.
In a sober career c full of accomplishments,
including more than 40 albums.
Elliot Readily gives credit to his higher power
for every step of his success.
His ongoing commitment to regular meetings and Aa
fellowship,
keep him humbly connected to the program.
He red leaks extends the hand of Aa
to anyone who reaches out for help.
1 of my previous guests on Aa recovery
interviews attends meetings with Elliott whenever he's in
paris and suggested Elliott for the show.
Meeting him by Zoom has been in real
treat, and I think he'll enjoy hearing his
captivating story.
So please enjoy the next 60 minutes with
my friend and a brother,
elliott m.
Elliott.
Alcoholic. Hi, Elliot. Thanks so much for joining
me today on a a recovery interviews. I
really appreciate you taking the time to join
me from Europe, more specifically from...
France.
I'm in Paris,
France in the second ar diesel.
Paris is divided into 20 of
Aaron d, which are the corner of the
city, and they go, like, spiral out. So
the second is right in the center. Oh,
how exciting.
I'm always looking for people to
share with me the stories that will make
the biggest impact on people who hear them
around the world and so I wanna really
thank for doing this today.
So you don't sound... Your French accent is
leaving something to be desired. I'm I'm wondering
what what the heck is up with that?
Measure
say.
Oh, okay. I do speak French, but I
mean, I've been here
35 years in France.
And I'm originally from Long Island, New York.
So I probably still have traces of that
accent. You've got that long Island
accent. I was listening. To
Billy Joel I was at the gym yesterday,
just just to kind of reconnect with the
seventies there
And you know, the the period of music
enjoyment that I got locked into, and he's
from Long Island too, I believe isn't a.
He is and a good friend of mine.
So how did a guy like you end
up in aa?
Wow. That's a big question. It is. I
know.
I celebrated a anniversary. I had 39 years
of sobriety on 05/05/1819
85. Though I don't take much credit for.
Congratulations on that. Thank you. But how did
I get into Aa. I mean,
it's a miracle, first of all, credit I'm
gonna start kinda from that moment. I I
love that
we refer to it as when I came
in. It's like when you enter.
Mh. Miracle. When you enter the miracle, and
that's what happened to me if I can
go back 39 years it was early May,
and I was in my apartment in New
York.
And
I had to catch a plane the next
state of fly to Milwaukee to do some
recording. I'm a musician. I'm professional singer song,
or guitar. I've been doing it for 50
years. Mh. And I've always made a living
at a although it was in my last
years of
being active, it was pretty tough. But there
it was in my apartment. And I had
to catch this plane the next day, which
Saturday
to do some recording, and it was a
my first big break I I'd had in
a long time, but there I was, And
I'm trying to decide, Mh. What should I...
I was so nervous about taking this flight
the next day going to Milwaukee, and I
said, well better go I have a few
beers just to relax.
And, of course,
the next morning,
10:00 in the morning. I was back home.
I was chugging Vodka. I was Harp valley.
I was sn anything on my shack carpet,
which looked like cocaine.
And
I was praying harp And I've been in
this same situation countless number a times. Right,
my heart was going a hundred and 50
times a minute. Mh. And I was just
praying to this God of
my child really don't love me die.
And I received this message at that moment
very clear.
I still remember to this day. It was
nothing meta physical. It wasn't like Bill Wilson
white light moment, but I did receive this
message that said to me Elliott. This is
what you do and you're gonna continue doing
this.
So forget the deals.
And I managed to get to sleep, I
caught that flight due to Milwaukee. Mh. I
went out to dinner that night with my
friend a fellow a musician who I had
fired from a band some years before, and
he ended up being in very successful band
and brought me out there to record, and
I'm met this woman,
who, I liked, and she drove me a
home,
to his house or staying. And
in her bag and her purse, she had
at questionnaire,
are you not?
And she con find me that she had
2 years of sobriety,
and I did not
ask her. This she just decided.
The look on my face, I guess, her
name was Rita. I went through the questionnaire
with her and it was basically yes yes
yes yes Yes. Yes to every question. Except
the last question, which was do you drink
in the morning?
And I said, no, I do not drink
in the morning? And she said, what time
do you wake up? And I said up
03:00 in the afternoon.
So
she thought I might like to try it
on Aa am meeting. I said, you know,
it sounds great. I wish Had problem with
alcohol,
and she asked me how often her drank
I said, well. Every day. I drink something,
You know, I drink beer or whine or
wrong didn't always get drunk. But
she said you were we should come to
a maybe at you. You can... You don't
have to say anything or do anything or
talked to anybody, but just sit through an
hour.
And I liked her, and that was really
my motivation. This was in Milwaukee. This was
in Milwaukee in 19 85 and
You know, I grew up in a suburbs,
and I didn't really look like the suburbs,
and
I'm I'm still a city cat to this
day. She brought me into this meeting in
the suburbs of Milwaukee,
and it was in, like a church and
it was in the basement and
Classic A.
Classic Aa, and midwest, very midwestern.
They they closed with the Lord's prayer,
and the interesting thing was the person was
leading the meeting said, is there anyone here
for the first meeting wants to say hello
hello
and pointed to me. And I was like,
was shit. This isn't fair. They knew it.
And I said, well, I'm elliot, and I'm
checking this out. I don't know what's...
What's going on, but I'm here and everyone
applauded it. What I didn't realize there was
someone behind me who would actually had their
hand up.
So I guess I, was supposed to claim
my seat there. And
then they... As they do in Midwest meetings,
they broke into small groups,
like, birch table Mh. Size groups, and I
sat down at 1 of those groups, not
with rita, but with a group of strangers,
you know,
very un people. I thought these were insurance
salesman and teachers and, you know, what am
I doing here? I always like to say
they didn't know, Chuck Berry from raspberry.
And
we all went around and
did our little share. And and when I
left that meeting,
Howard I just
I knew these people knew more about me
than anyone I'd had ever met I talked
to. And mh, I I virtually just...
From that moment alone,
never had a drink. So when the day
before when you were drinking, you had no
idea that the last drink you took. Would
be the last drink for that you would
end up in a... No idea. And in
fact, it was the opposite. As I as
I said, I got this message that this
is what you do and I will continue
doing it. That's amazing. It was I guess,
a first step. I guess that was a
moment I had admitted I was powerless, and
I could not stop drinking. Sounds like I
an answer to a prayer elliott.
You mentioned just a few minutes ago that
you had asked gods to not let you
die when you were a child. What was
going on that you would have had to
utter that kind of prayer as a child.
So I grew up on Long Island in
a very upper middle class
suburb
there, and my father was in show business.
And he was kind of a local celebrity,
We... I had a very affluent lifestyle, everything
I wanted.
You know,
we lived in a huge. House with a
big wall around it, neither of my parents
drank by the way. I mean, they they...
My father had a few beers at dinner,
but I never saw my parents house drunk.
Was ernie alcoholism further on back in the
family with grandparents. I heard my mother's father
was an alcoholic and
that really scarred her. You know, He was...
He would go off to work and not
come back for 2 days later, He'd be
on a binge.
When the... When I was 16,
hang
I've always been an insomnia,
always a night bird.
Night owl, and my mother person to my
roam is about midnight, I guess, and she
said, come caught your father's
having some kind of an attack.
And I went into their bedroom. And there
my father was. He was lying in bed,
and he was obviously having a heart attack.
And
At that moment, I didn't know it, but
as I watched him, he died.
I mean, his eyes turned up.
He lost control of his
of his arms.
He made
this terrible sound, which is a a death
ra sound that it does exist
And
I did not know he had died at
that point, but
my mother sent me next door to get
a doctor and I went to get a.
Doctor. And when that doctor came to the
door, he said, let me get my bag,
I'll be right down.
When he ran up to get his bag,
I dropped to my knees and I prayed.
And I said, please don't love my father
die.
And then we got back to the house,
and he we whip my mother and I
waited outside the room. He went inside for
a few minutes, and it came out. And
he said, I'm sorry he's gone.
And really,
Howard, that was the moment that all my
faith just
just left me.
You know, I... That was the moment that
I lost all belief that things were gonna
be okay, you know, that things would work
out. Now you're sick. Explain when this has
happening. And so did you have that belief
prior to that point? I mean, did you
grow up, believing that god was working in
your life or god worked in the world.
Yes. I did. Of course, because I had
a I had a good life and my
parent,
I was provided for
I was a little bit of a nervous
kid, maybe, but I had great interest.
I was always a reader from a very
early age. And I was into music. I
started playing the guitar when I was 12,
and that instrument and music as was really
my life,
my life, with what happened. So... Mh. After
my father died, my family went into free
fall. Really,
he had not died at a good
time for his business. He had a restaurant
by then quite a big restaurant with
local political celebrities Bobby Kennedy came there Nelson
Rockefeller or people of that era and we
lost everything and
moved to a very
tiny
ugly little house in the same town.
My mother who had, you know, been to
the dancing at the White House,
Mh Was then working in a jewelry store
in the same,
you know, building as my father used to
stabbed have the restaurant, and she hooked up
with a... Another guy whose name was slim
and he was a total alcoholic. Mh,
Slim was a 3 martini lunch guy. It
was the sixties
slim and I didn't get along at all.
I remember watching the kent state shootings with
him and his response was they should've used
machine guns. Oh, god. It was the sixties.
So I I pretty much... I had started
drinking, like, almost like all teenagers, you know,
14 15, and
16, and then I started taking drug smoking
pod. And when I was 18, I was
taking a psychedelic drug called the Dmt
that I smoked and I had a...
Very bad reaction and I started having really
bad panic attacks some months later. Mh. I
went to see a psychiatrist. He put me
on thor.
For a while. And... But I continued to
drink, you know, alcohol
back in the 60 far to think of
it this way, but that was almost the
safe drug, you know, If you just drank,
it was was okay.
There were so many drugs going on. It
wasn't as easy to get as the drugs
though. Was it? Well, the drinking age was
18 back then. Oh, 18. Okay. It was
18 in New York and of course, I
had a fake
Id too, you know, when I was
everybody did. When you were... When you started
drinking, were you drinking to
fit in with the people around you? Were
you drinking for fact what was the motivation
behind your drinking in the first place? Well,
howard as I said, neither my parents really
drank. So it wasn't like us was copying
them, but it it was a pure thing.
I mean, you know, we you reach a
certain age. And when you go out, you're
buying a 6 pack and
you're trying to get someone to buy it
for you in the deli and and you
find a place to drink it. I it
was just almost a,
the culture of my peers, you know, everybody
was drinking beer and and going out and
trying to find bars that would serve you
Did it ease the trauma of losing your
dad when you were 16?
I think I just wanted to escape reality
in any way I could. I lost all
interest in school
after that, barely made it out of high
school. And, you know, with the drinking and
with the drugs. The only thing I really
held on on stayed
pretty serious with was my music, you know.
You mentioned a free fall earlier, why such
a free fall after all the success that
your dad had? Why did things deteriorate? And
how did they deteriorate so quickly in your
family? Well, my father had a very successful
outdoor
water show in the fifties,
and he had Duke El play there in
Cap Call and famous Comedian, and it was
a 8000 seat Arena,
and then
when he stopped that, he he opened up
a very big
expansive restaurant, you know, a lot of catering
and something happened. It was very successful in
the beginning, but then it got... He ran
at a difficult times. I'm not sure exactly
why. Mh.
You know, like any business there were the
ups and the downs, and he passed away
when it was set the downsides,
we didn't have anything
And my mother who was totally unprepared to
handle all this. She was the daughter of
an alcoholic and
I think a lot of her reactions
came from that. You know, the fear. You.
How about siblings?
I have a brother, and I had a
have a sister,
neither of them are really alcoholic, I would
say. How do they react in that situation?
Well, my sister was 19.
So she...
She had already been kinda shepherd
through into college, she was going to university.
She came home to finish her
schooling there, us, I was 16
and my brother was 13. So and neither
of us
had anyone telling us we should go to
go to college or anything like that. You
know, we were pretty much on our own
at that point.
My mother was just totally Prepared to handle.
You know, my father just job he dropping
on the scene. He was really the magic
man who had kept it together. It sounds
really really a a tragic time in her
life as well as the rest of the
family. It was... She was a 36
or so and 3 kids,
huge debts on her head, and
I don't know how I'm am I'm a
amazed she handled. I have to give her
credit. Kind of for handling it as well
as she did you know. Yeah. Did you
stay on Long Island after you, moved out
of the big house? Yeah. We in fact
stayed in the same town.
Same town. I mean, we went from, like,
the biggest house in that town to the
smallest house in that.
What was that like for you? And and
especially around your peers and people who knew
you and knew your father and knew the
affluent that you had come from. Well, I
think there was certainly a lot of sympathy,
you know, It it was a big event
when my father died in that town. It
was only 48. Mh. And
So people are aware of the tragedy
and,
you know, would express that to me.
And then, you know, when I went back
to school, I guess, after taking 2 weeks
over or whatever you do for the funeral
in the burial. You know, my teachers kinda
gave me a ride for a quarter Said,
you know, even though I wasn't working, you
know, still get me passing grades, but by
the end of the year, I was just
failing everything.
So you're a junior in high school at
that point. Exactly. I was a junior in
high school. And by the next... By the
end of my junior year, I was drinking,
quite a bit, I think and early into
my senior year started smoking marijuana, and I
was really...
1 of the few people doing that. I
mean, this was 19 66
So, you know? Mh. My guidance counselor called
me a hip, and I had never heard
that word before, You know, that's how long
ago that was and the war was going
on at that point too. The war was
going on, and I was ripe for the
draft.
I did get a a deferral.
When I had those panic attacks after,
after my drug use, my psychiatrist, he wrote
a note and he said it I was
suffering from spells of dis.
Mh. And I guess for the military to
think that I could be there in the
jungle with a rifle and not get disoriented
about who I was supposed to shoot at.
They they gave me a defer. That was
1 of the great states of my life
when I got that defer. Must been a
lot of fear that you would end up
in the army. That was tremendous fear that
I would end up in the army. Yeah.
And also,
I did... I don't think I wanted to
leave my family, and you know, we were
just kinda clinging onto each other, you know,
after what happened.
So what happens after high school and when
what was the trajectory at that point?
It's kind of an interesting story. In 19
71,
I had a friend who had been to
europe.
A few times, and he convinced me to
take a trip to Europe with him, and
not had another buddy, and my sister was
a steward on Pan am. So I gotta
you know, a family discount ticket, and I
went to Europe and man, that trip, it
was the first time I felt that weight
of the grief.
Leave me. You know, this was a... The
old world became my new world. And I
I just loved it. And I think that
has lot to do with why I'm still
here
why I moved here eventually. Mh. I you
know, went
amsterdam in Brussels and at Paris and Rome
as spent a lot of time in Rome
did a bit part in a full leaning
movie even. But I knew I wanted to
be a musician, and I came back to
America
went to San Francisco, and then I would
play a lot the open mic
clubs there, where you didn't get paid, but
you could drink as much did you wanted
to.
And at which I would do, after 1
of those nights,
the next morning got, the girl Was living
with I woke up, and she said Yelling
hear yellow. And I thought I just had
a really bad hang. And I finally went
to the hospital, and they said I I
was drawn as I had a see or
caused by alcohol.
Was alcohol. It wasn't the hepatitis, the serious
1, but I I did have a a
liver and hepatitis, and I had to go
back... Hepatitis c is was that the 1
that you I guess that's the 1 if
that's the the least serious. But I was
so sick, and I went back to to
New York to get better. At which I
did, and my doctor told me,
listen, you cannot drink for a year. Mh.
Or to could take any drugs because your
liver couldn't handle it. In fact, another girl
who I I think also got the same
hepatitis as I had in San Francisco. She
was in the hospital with an and
got bored and took some pills and died
because her liver couldn't handle. So the amazing
thing, Howard us, in that year,
of not drinking.
I got a band together.
I started playing in New York. I started
knocking on doors of record companies. I got
a record contract. I recorded my first album.
It came out and boom.
My picture was rolling stone and News week
magazine.
I mean, my dreams have come true. While
you were not drinking,
Yeah.
Not drinking for this year. Did you ever
put the 2 together?
Not at that time. No. Not at.
In fact, I really ashamed of it because,
you know, every... All my heroes were drinking
and taking drugs, You know? I wanted to
be a rolling stone, You know, I wanted
was that fear for your liver then? What
was was it the medical diagnosis that scared
you out of doing anything for that year
in which so many good things happened to
you? First of all, I don't think my
alcoholism had gotten to the point where I
couldn't stop. I was able to control it
like that first thing. U.
I think I was pretty scared because I
was so sick. I was as sickest as
I'd ever been in my life. And then,
like I've said, I had this love for
the music, and I was motivated and I
was writing songs, and I was writing songs
about my story kind of with my family.
I think that's why that first album it
got so much attention. Mh. Because it was
almost like sharing.
You know, it was kinda cath pathetic too.
How bad. It was very cath pathetic. But
Then once that year was up, kinda, you
know, that there wasn't like a day than
I began, but then I started
pretty much drinking again, and I would have
to do... I did a lot of interviews
in those early days. Mh. A lot of
them more over lunch.
And I found if I drank a few
scotch before
started talking. I thought my interviews were more
interesting. Mh. So I would start drinking at
lunch,
those interviews then I started going on the
road and touring. And I found, you know,
if I had a bottle of Jack daniels
is in the dressing room.
That would help things soon loosen me up
on stage. What was your thinking there elliot?
When when you... When you started drinking again
after that year of not, because of what
your doctor said and because of having the
john is and being so sick.
What thoughts went through your mind
before you took that drink or the first
few drinks that let it be okay that
you were drinking? I mean, what were you
telling yourself about your liver that allowed you
to take those drinks?
That's an interesting question because
I'm sharing at a meeting the other night,
and the guy who was sharing us talking
about how he.
He was into fashion, and he had gotten
his dream job and moved to New York
city and then blew everything.
And I, you know, in my 39 years,
I think I've heard more stories of people
who couldn't handle success
and that fueled their drinking.
And that viewed their drug abuse. Mh. And
I think at the point where I started
getting successful, and I could drink again
I was so nervous about it, And so
anxious about it. And so who was I
supposed to be? You know, they were calling
me the new Bob dylan? Who was I
supposed to be? Mh So I think the
2 kind of dovetail
each other, and I just found that
alcohol
kinda helped me know I thought I was
supposed to be. And
at that time, I got involved some very
powered management company. They were managing Darrell Smith
and a lot of other Great Acts. And
I remember them saying to me, Elliott just
don't do 2 things don't get divorced
because then you have to give your a
wife
you got and don't don't get into cocaine.
And, of course, I did both those things
out. Did they know that you had the
liver issue? No. No. Not really. Did you
have anybody at that time who you had
to be too or you felt like you
needed to be accountable too? Very interesting question.
I did not. I really lacked a father
figure in every way. Yeah.
And my mother was just not
not really capable.
And, you know,
things were happening for me. So, you know,
who's gonna tell me I'm doing it wrong
at that time. You know? So you're a
young guy who had all these problems with
his liver, You're healthy again,
It's okay to drink. You've having all the
success. How about what you were being told
by the people around you. What what I've...
I've interviewed quite a number of musicians for
the podcast.
Over the hundred and 50 interviews I've done.
And 1 of the questions I always like
to ask is about the enabling that goes
on
around the people who are handling
the musician or the people who are
going on the road with them or the
people at the the record companies or whatever,
doing all the enabling that makes it particularly
difficult to stop, especially if those people are
addicted and have alcoholism too. Well, I have
to say honestly, I can't really put the
blame on the music business. I don't think
anyone who was in a
responsible
position either at a record company, or management,
encouraged me to drink take drugs, honestly.
I think I gravitate toward the people who
would
who would wanna get high with me. And
then
my road, which Always led toward the music,
it kinda started
diverting toward,
let's get high, you know.
And the music enabled me to do that
because of my my career and the money
I was making and that everything else, but
I can't really
blame it on the music, but in fact,
if anything, I think I need I needed
to make amend
to the music business because I had such
tremendous opportunities, and I wasn't responsible with them,
You know. I remember once
when I signed to Columbia records,
they held the luncheon for me at a
21, which is a very famous
upscale restaurant in New York City. And I've
been up doing coke
until an hour before I got to the
lunch, you know? When I got to the
lunch, and I was just a basket case.
And when I had to make a speech,
I don't know what I ba out, and
I just to looked at these guys faces
they're thinking, you know, we're investing a million
dollars in this... Mh. It it's
So I didn't get too much enabling. I
mean, let's face it in rock and roll.
It's sex and drugs and rock and roll.
So no 1 was telling me not to
drink I'm not to take drugs, You know,
and there's so many examples of
successful artists you know, drinking and drug. There
are many more examples. I think they... There
would not as known of those who fell
by the wayside because of their addictions in
alcohol something. Did you feel like the drug
usage, either the marijuana or the cocaine or
anything else that you were doing was actually
sharpening up your your song writing and you're
singing? You know, not at all. Really? I
don't think I ever wrote songs,
drunk.
I don't think I ever hardly performed I.
I might take a you know, 1 drink
a shot jack,
but I never went on stage drunk. I
never did coke during a show.
Until they let the end days, when things
were really bad. Why not? You're able to
do everything else drunken in stone, why not
perform?
I think because
I respected the music that much, you know.
Mh. I knew when it was good and
when it was bad.
I knew when I was playing good and
not playing well, and I knew when I
was writing a song, and honestly,
those early albums I did, and I've made
it over 40 albums. But. Those early albums
have really
the test of time, and I think it's
because of that. I think it's because of
that. Somewhere along the way you drew the
you drew the connection between the use of
alcohol and drugs and its effect on you
as a
professional musician and song writer. I did not
make the connection until I went to my
first Aa meeting, and that was a Eureka
moment. Yeah. That was, like, whoa,
alcohol. This is it. If I don't drink,
I'm gonna be okay. They're telling me. And
you know, I have a very big ego.
Mh. Hopefully, sobriety has
deflate it a little bit, but when I
arrived at that first Sa meeting,
where I was in life, I was so
disappointed where It was... I mean, sometimes I'd
be driving a truck for a hundred dollars
to move some bands equipment.
Because I'd be so broke.
And
I was so disappointed that I had lost
all faith in my own decision making ability.
So I was really ready
I had been humble,
really humbled at that point. You know. Yeah.
And
I was ready to take all the suggestions.
All the advice. I was ready to go
all in into aa.
Can you take a second and talk to
me about the slide? From being very successful
during that period of time till the... You
ended up in a a, obviously, it's not
an overnight happening, But when did that success,
and everything you were enjoying, go south on
you and you started go into that slide.
What was that like And how long did
it take?
I think
it took about
10 years, I guess, About 10 year. My
my my drinking and drug career was about
20 years. Mh. I think Time must. 25
till I was 35. I got sober at
35.
I felt
when I lost interest in touring.
I would stop tours
you know, I would I'd make some excuse,
but I think I just really wanted to
be at home getting high. I don't think
it affected my... A chops as a musician.
But it really affected my decision making ability.
I made so many bad decisions. I had
so many resentment against people before
I would quit things and fire people and
drop the ball, you know, I had halfway
through
almost all of my early albums. I did
something to sabotage them. You know, this...
I believe this is a self destructive disease
and it manifest itself in so many ways.
And that's how minuses
itself in my career. I would I had
no patience. I wanted
immediate
gratification, you know, I was not willing to
put in the time necessary, you know, to
get to the Bruce springs scene level. Did
you have anybody in your life at that
time, Elliott who... You pulled you aside,
noticing your behavior noticing the decline,
say anything to you about it or were
you imp to what people were talking about.
I think I wasn't imp, but I think
I was 1 point I remember I was
out out on the end of Long island
and my sister was there, and she said
to me god, you I never saw anyone
drink
so much so quickly as you. Mh. But
I was almost proud of it, You know,
my heroes were all out now. F Scott
fitzgerald,
you know, he was my main man as
a writer. So, you know, I didn't see
what the problem was, you know, I was
I was running on fumes, but I didn't
know it. And your liver, how was your
liver doing through all this? Problem My liver
seemed to have recovered. I've never had any
problems with my liver through through those years.
But, you know, I was very susceptible.
To the effects of alcohol and drugs very
susceptible. It didn't take much. Mh. To
to have its effect on the, they they
said Jim Morrison was that way. The doors,
he'd had 1 drink and he just turned
into a different person. I I felt that
was always that way with me. So your
attitude changed to when you were drinking, didn't
it? My attitude changed a lot.
I thought I was skiing in the universe,
and I knew it all.
How did that play out amongst the people
you were around?
Well, as long as I was on top
and paying salaries and doing things like that
and make money for everybody that played out
pretty well. Yeah.
But when the when the mighty have fallen,
you know,
you're alone.
Getting we'll be right back.
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And we're back.
When did the decline start to get severe
for you? And the in the years before
you hit Aa. Was it was it gradual
all way up to the end or was
there a point at which you had a
tendency to just drop off before Well, I
I did a tour of Japan in 79,
I think, and then I came back to
New York.
And for some reason, I decided I had
to fire my management,
and I had to do this on my
own, and
and I could do that. And
very quickly after that,
you know, I went from
in the early days of my career living
in the Beverly So tell for months of
time
to living out a c in my mother's
kitchen. Mh. And that was the point. So
I went into kinda
to you know, between 80 and 85 the
less 5 years of my drinking.
I was kind of in limbo. You know?
I would still had a a public in
Europe that I could go to. Sure. And
I would tour over here through a few
times a year,
play some shows over here, and
I didn't... I was kinda kept myself in
good shape for those shows. I don't know
how I did it, but
but those last 5 years was a serious,
decline nobody was interested in me in the
music business. I mean, I couldn't get arrested.
For 5 years. Yeah. Talk to me about
being a functional alcoholic.
And how that might have helped or hindered
you in life and in your career. I
think it hindered me because I did not
hit. That physical bottom, Mh. Which a lot
of people talk about. You know, I I
definitely
hit the spiritual bottom
hard. Mh. You know,
and and the mental bottom. You know, I
when I would be up
for a few days binge binging on coke
and and alcohol,
I guess,
really
psychotic. I mean, hearing voices outside my door.
Mh. Rolling along on a carpet thinking someone's
out there. I mean, the... This is really
Like this is why that second step is
so important
because I really believe I was insane. Yeah.
When I came in here but I didn't
have that physical bottom. So,
you know, I'd go in these benches,
And then I'd recover,
and, you know, I guess I looked almost
normal to people. Yeah. And
until the next time.
That's how I was a functioning alcohol. Okay.
Know, I could...
I I could maintain, I could drink
every day and it it didn't seem to...
I didn't land in the hospital. Sometimes being
a functional alcoholic is the greatest hindrance for
getting sober. I can stop when I want,
even though I'm stopping between,
so that must prove that I don't have
the problem that I need that I ultimately
find out I need Aa 4.
You're so right. I mean, I did not
think I had a problem with alcohol really?
And I remember
at 1 of my early meetings in Milwaukee.
This old timer or a woman came up
to me. And she she said,
I had just shared or told my story.
She said, you know,
you're lucky you got into that cocaine.
I said, why is that? She said, because
from what I hear you, Your alcoholism might
not have caught up with you for another
10 years or so. But that cocaine and
really greased your slide. That was how she
put it. Grease my ride to the bottom.
Yeah.
I've heard that from so many people and
some of the professionals that I know,
who deal with drug addicts and alcoholic all
the time,
say that the drugs take people down so
much more quickly, which is why you see
so many young people in this C and
Na programs,
and not as many in Aa.
And
I I think
for my observation that seems to be Seems
to be true. So the cocaine was taking
you down pretty quickly.
It wasn't and here in Paris,
it Although there there is n a, especially
French n, and there is Ta,
but the Ada is is really
the epi epicenter of recovery here. So... And
it's almost all mixed, you know, because of
a certain generation,
most a time drugs are a part of
your story as well. You know. That's what
happened when you drank it did drugs. That's
what it was like for me too. It
was it was the same thing and early
on in the program. I've been sober
36 and a half years now, and early
on in the program.
I would say, my name is Howard and
I'm an
drug addict and alcoholic, and somewhere along the
way, in my first couple years, somebody said,
well, you know, when I came into aa,
it dragged all of my other addictions in
with me. So say that I'm an alcoholic
covers it all, but I understand people need
to say
addict and alcoholic, The and.
Well, I I couldn't agree more because
you know, as I as I always say,
I've never met 2 people who do this
program the same.
We all do it differently.
The 1 common point we have is usually
going to meetings. That's something everybody does.
And that's where I think the magic happens.
But everything else. I mean, I've known people
who never open the big book and people
who read the big book every day. People
who do the steps
once a year and people have never done
the steps, you know, but
seems to me if you if you keep
going to meetings,
you will get it in a way that
works for you, and that... That's what my
situation was. But I agree with that I
think
alcoholic is almost just become a generic term.
Yeah. It has. For whatever this disease is.
So you've talked about getting sober going to
your first Aa meeting, staying sober from that
point until today 39 years later,
what were the first days weeks months like
for you in aa a. And did you
ever consider not continuing at any point or
or were you getting more and more hook
the longer you stayed?
Well,
to get back to Rita,
Milwaukee, you know, we were romantically involved. And
so we got evolved before because I didn't
go to meeting the day after. It was
a couple of weeks after I met her.
U. I could say, you know, they say
no romantic entanglement means for year. I could
say that's true because we were involved before.
Yeah. I would do a... So there was
that, and that would that was keeping me
too, you know, because that was it's enough.
It's it's enough, and
I don't know why it was easy for
me, Howard. I don't know why my desire
to drink left me, you know?
I drank every day, and I didn't think
I was alcohol. Mh. I didn't think cocaine
was a hard drug.
Moe was the word we used to use
in New York. That's how out that I
was. It just left me that desire. You
know, Thank god. And
I'll tell you. It certainly hasn't been all
the way from my other defects of character
shortcomings.
No. I get that. I get that. 1
1 of the 1 of the things I'm
I'm curious about
16, you're standing bedside by your dad or
you're in the same house.
And you're knee down and asking God for
something that he didn't deliver at that point
for you. What
occurred for you during your first number of
months within a to establish a spiritual connection,
or did you not have 1 immediately?
I think
I was on a bit of a pink
cloud. Mh. First of all,
I started feeling better
physically.
Right away, had more energy.
My reader was a
a personal
trainer. Mh.
So I was I was going to the
gym and staying in shape and so that
changed right away.
What was my connection with a higher power
well? I think I just
kinda took it on faith. I wasn't
for very short time, I went back to
the church of my child, which was that
pis church. Mh. And went in there and
I thought I was gonna
reconnect that way, but I didn't feel it.
Mh.
I just felt the power, I guess, in
the rooms. Yeah. You know, that was really
my higher power at that point. So you
weren't resistant to the idea of God. As
a result of what you had experienced earlier
in life, were you open to it or
just not paying as much attention as some
people do.
I don't think I was threatened by. U.
Some people they're very threatened by that God
aspect of Aa and the religious that, but
I just always thought
you could take what you want and leave
the rest as long as you didn't pick
up a drink a day at a time,
You know? So I didn't feel threatened by
it. I had never had a really bad
religious upbringing as some people have,
and I... I'm in New York, you know,
that runs the whole the gamut, you know,
from people
pure Aps to people who will go back
to church. Mh.
So I Never felt threatened by the God
issue in a. I still don't. You know,
And I say, I shove... If I had
a faith meter,
which shows how strong my faith is. When
things are going my way. My faith meter
is very strong.
When life does not give me what I
want, my faith meter goes down very... Yeah.
Yeah. I I noticed something similar when I
was... And since I've been sober over the
years that
my feeling in beginning was everything that was
going right in my life was god working
in my life. Everything that went wrong with
something else. Like god wasn't involved in any
of that, but I've since come to learn
that he's involved in the good and the
bad and everything else in between Did you
get a sponsor immediately when you first came
in, Elliott or tell me about your sponsor
and sponsorship? Yes. I did get a sponsor
in the first year I was went... When
I I went back to New York to
get sober. Mh. Really because I was living
there and someone in Milwaukee
sent to me. We've had you New Yorkers
here.
You all seem to have careers and therapists.
And she you said out here, we have
jobs and sponsors.
So
I went back to New York, and I
did get a sponsor. I was at a
meeting right next to where I live.
And this guy was speaking and he was
a musician. Piano player, and he was talking
about doing cocaine and he was talking about
group rupees and he was
the same life lifestyle. I said, oh, fantastic
and I asked him to be my sponsor
turned out. He was a classical pianist.
You know, I He was at a rocker
at all. Boy. And we're still in touch
to this day. I do the the steps
with him.
He was a very la fair kind sponsor,
which is what I needed. You know, I
didn't need someone telling me you gotta do
this. You gotta do that. I don't work
well authority. Yeah.
He will he was just right for me.
Rita and I got married. Mh. We... And
we had a long distance
relationship first, when she was in Mobile milwaukee
cows was in New York. We couldn't figure
out why our higher power was keeping us
apart until we got together,
and it became obvious.
2 years. The marriage was over.
And I had 5 years of sobriety at
that time and a good friend of mine,
another musician in the program said, well, what
do you wanna do now? Because you can
do things. And I said,
I really wanna move to Paris.
And he said, well I think I know
someone I was an apartment there, but,
And it was just magical, like Boom boom
boom within 2 weeks, I was putting my
key in the door of an apartment that
I sub for 6 months in paris.
So I moved to Paris and I I
pretty quickly got a sponsor there,
and he was a guy named Ted. Mh.
He was Canadian.
He passed away with 50 some years of
sobriety. He was
really
his sponsor guy named zebra.
Had taken epi to his first Oxford group
meeting. So
Was really connected to the pioneers there. And
Ted was a funny guy, and
I liked him. He was
smart,
sophisticated,
but he always used to give me the
same advice, which was Elliott don't fuck it
up. If that was his basic sponsor. Ship
mantra to me.
He passed away
10 years ago or so, and
he had dementia to hardly recognize recognized me
at the end.
In Switzerland I used to go visit him.
Mh. And now I have a good friend,
named Ed, also Canadian who lives in London,
and we almost do this c sponsor thing
with each other. And I don't know if,
If that's kosher or not, but it seems
to be working for us. Absolutely. When we
get close enough to our sponsors that it
becomes a c sponsoring situation, That's how it
is with my sponsor.
I've had the same sponsor from my entire
length of my sobriety and it's meant a
lot. He's never... And he hasn't lived in
Houston,
in the last 30 years, and he's moved
all over the country different places. But he's
always either on a plane or in the
hotel room, and I probably talked to him
more often than who sponsors are right there
in town. The sponsorship is so important and
that
relationship building that I never really knew how
to do when I was younger, really got
boosted by
having a good sponsor? Yeah. And how about
you sponsoring other men? What what's your experience
been there? I have the sponsored
quite a few. Mh.
Honestly, I I don't think I'm a very
good sponsor.
Why?
I don't know why.
Maybe I, I'm just too self absorbed.
But I do have a sp now,
a great guy named Led.
And he's a,
true blues man from the south side Chicago
who lives in
who who lives in Paris.
He's a very interesting story because A literally
saved his life. Because 2 years ago, he
had a heart attack in an Aa meeting.
Wow.
And he was surrounded by enough people who
knew what they were doing, who got ambulance
there and took care of them. Mh. And
if he had had that heart attack and
it anywhere else so he always likes to
say, hey, really say my way. So maybe
I'm being too hard on myself because Lid
my policy,
we've stayed together quite a long time.
I'm not a tough tough sponsor. I've had
a lot of people ask me to sponsor
them, and I say, okay. Call me. And
but I never say you gotta call me
every morning at 10:00 in the morning, and
you know, you gotta read the big book
and
because I think if people want it,
they get it.
And if they don't,
that's not much you can say.
So, my guess is that your a service
guy in other ways. Talk to me about
your involvement with your groups and A in
general.
I've done done all kinds of service. I
mean, I've done the call... Everything from doing
the coffee to sharing meetings.
During Zoom, I started a meeting.
Which is still going on. It's called 1
minute at a time
because my theory is howard this may sound
cynical, but The longer the shares the less
the gratitude. Yeah. So I started this meeting
1 minute at a time where the everyone
shares for 1 minute
That's all oh, wow. The opening share is
just 5 minutes. And and it's a it's
a play on words from a day of
time many every time.
And it's kept going now for years, and
we've had a couple of people got sober
during the the Covid pandemic for in that
meeting.
And we get a lot of old timers
in this meeting. And you know, the meeting
over when everyone shares. We go through every
person, you know,
So the meeting could be 20 minutes long
If you've got 20 people in the room.
Exactly. Well, the the open the or 20
50 shares is 5 minutes. 25 minutes, but
it's wow. Sometimes it ends at 40 minutes,
sometimes it's over an hour.
And
you, I think I was just like in
a state of grace when I got this
concept, you know, I hope it goes to
other places. You know they say anything more
in a couple minutes as.
That's it. We also have tendency to go
to a lot of the on and on
and on meetings, and
that's entirely too much. So you've started meetings.
You've
you've you've been of service to your group.
1 of the things I've noticed being sober
a long time is that people see the
number of years and
they think that everything is easy as a
result and that,
he's sober for so long, he must not
have any problems and I always like to
debunk that by telling my truth and whatever
meetings I'm going to.
But sometimes it's difficult knowing that the number
of years gonna actually be a barrier to
some of the younger people and some of
the more newly sober that that they can
see somebody with 35 or 40 years sober
and think There's no way in the world
I could ever get there. And plus that
guys got all those years. His life must
be perfect. What do you say to people
like that?
Well, I say,
you know, 39 years there's a lot of
sobriety, but it's just a lot of life
really. I'm a big believer that
sobriety and Aa is a bridge back to
life. Yeah.
I either read or someone told me,
you know you've really achieved perfect
spirituality
when you are grateful for everything that happens
to you in life.
The bad and the good. Now, I'm certainly
nowhere near that level, but
As you know, Howard our life has got
its own agenda, and I've, you know, I've
had great success
I've had terrible failures. I've had joy. I've
had depression. I've had fear and anxiety. I've
had courage.
All this part of the human
experience, you know.
I would look when I was first kid
in. If I saw someone with 30 years,
I just thought they were buddha, you know,
sitting on top of the mountain and and
Yeah.
1 of the things I like to ask
if you elliott at 39 years sober, knowing
what you know now, could go back and
talk to an earlier version of yourself about
life or about getting or saying sober about
what to do next? Which Elliott would that
be? How old would they be and what
would you be talking to them about?
I think I would like to talk to
the 16 year old elliott who was in
standing there, just lost his father
family going into free fall
and just,
you know, drowning in grief and just
tell them, you know,
this will best
everything in life passes. You will recover.
Have some patience,
you know,
just stay true to yourself.
Because I know I I had no patience
for anything back then. And when they used
to wish me a low recovery did everyone
ever say that deal you ensures. Well,
really pissed me off, you know. I wanted
to do these 12 steps in 12 days,
and, you know,
I always thought you got high after the
4 step in some way. That's why I
wanted to do that, so badly, but
Now I understand, you know, slow recovery. The
days of instant gratification rover. And, you know,
as my sponsor
Ted, you said tell me, don't fuck it
up. And 1 of the ways you can
certainly do that is by
moving too fast,
not sitting back and waiting for
kinda life to show you the way.
Yeah. It's a beautiful way to think about
it too
that God has an agenda somewhere that we
don't necessarily know about ours is just the
job of staying available for it and staying
open minded to it. And
you sound like your sobriety is a comfortable
place to be. I compare to, like being
on a ship Mh. And I'm the only
passenger, and this ship is on this
river sea. And sometimes you know,
the waves are crashing on over the side,
and sometimes it's calm, but I know this
ship is un sync. And as long as
I stay on that boat and I don't
get off it. I'll be okay. So if
you went up to the wheelhouse, you'd open
the door and there'd would be a bunch
of people from your meeting standing there.
I think I'd be a room to the
wheelhouse the door would be locked. They wouldn't
love me in.
Because I'm a passenger
No. I'm not the the pilot. I'm not
the pilot.
You know, I I never would have imagined.
When I moved here to Paris,
5 years of sobriety. Mh. I met a
woman who I
met on the road shares before we had
no contact in those 6 years. Mh.
We got married. We're still together. That's great.
We have a son,
mh who was 33.
Wow. Who's gonna gonna have
10 years of sobriety. So, you know, when
people you see people with a drinking problem
and
you tell them we'll come to, hey, you'll
get better. But if they don't, I'm not
gonna lie there. But
when you have, when you see that fatal
disease,
in the person you care about more than
anyone else in this world, almost. Yeah. And
you have to tell him if you could
go to Aa, you'll get better.
That is really the test of how much
you believe in this program. Do you really
believe it works.
And I think that was the point where
I really did believe it works.
Yeah. And you have to follow your own
path, makes me wonder or when I know
guy, and I know so many people. I'm
sure you do who are sober a really
long time who have children who have time
and sobriety, but who were obviously
alcoholic out there at 1 point. To wanna
tell them exactly what to expect when I
don't know what's next in their life, and
they've got to have their own relationship with
a higher power.
But what I hear people say is that
sometimes
the the kids of recovering alcoholic get involved
with
alcohol to prove that they are not like
the parent who needed aa to stay sober.
And
it it's it's really difficult. I think for
people, especially nowadays with some of the drugs
that are going around,
to deal with it as well.
What's been your experience?
I brought my son to some meetings when
he was quite little because I would be
babysitting, and I wanna go to a meeting,
my wife and be work or something Yeah.
He would come to those media things, and
I once that asked him after he got.
So I said, what did you think of
aa?
And those when he came in there and
he said, well, he said, I thought there
was an a swat team.
And if you picked up a drink that
were gonna burst through the windows in black
dressed in black like ninja fighters.
But when I told him he should
You know, first, I gave him all the
classic suggestions, I said, well, see if you
can just drink beer and wine, you know,
try not to drink for 90 days. Set
limit on and how much you're gonna see
how that works out, and, of course, none
of that worked out.
Because the last thing I wanted to do,
Howard was
make it seem like this is parental punishment,
you know. Oh, yeah. Didn't want it to
go... Go down that road. So all I
did when he finally came in just he
had had a bad night, a really bad
night, and he came in just down. We
lived in the same building here. Mh.
And he came up to see me and
I said, well, first, you should get some
sleep. And then tomorrow, you should go to
this meeting. That would be my suggestion. Mh.
And I'm not gonna go with you. You
should go to this meeting, and he did.
And he got a sponsor at the first
meeting still his sponsor.
And sometimes I think he has a better
program than me. You know what they say
is the second mouse who gets the cheese
in that true. That's wonderful. And in fact,
I guess if you were counting the blessings
of sobriety, he might be on the top
of that list.
Of course. Of course. Yeah.
Everything I have. I mean, I have a
pretty wonderful life here in Paris, and every
once a while,
I I realize it, You know? It's nice
to take a minute to, say, thank you,
God at those moments when we have those
realizations.
I have them as well, but I never
know when they're going to occur. 1 thing
I know for sure is that if I
go to an Aa meeting,
I will absolutely feel better coming out been
going in no matter how I'm feeling that
day. You know, we all say that, and
it's so true. It's so true. And it's
nice to talk to other members of the
choir so to speak, but they you,
you're an amazing man. I'm so glad that
I had the opportunity to get to talk
with you today and hear your story. We
just met and yet, I feel like, and
we've been brothers forever because I think there's
something... There's a common thread that runs through
a a that links us all together in
a way a spiritual way that
nothing else does, and
I appreciate you sharing
and trusting me with your story because I
know sometimes the questions aren't easy, and it's
a little bit different than just getting up
and telling your story.
You sound like you work a great program.
I think
after all my years as a sobriety.
Mh.
I don't think it hardly matters what we
say.
In these meetings.
I think we're all connecting on a spiritual
level that is
similar to
I like to compare it to when a
dog watches television. Yeah. I noticed that he
knows something going on there.
That's the same way. I feel that I
I know something's going on here. I'm not
sure if I understand at all. Yeah. It's
fascinating
and
I'm in for the ride. Yeah. I am
too. And
I wanna thank you again for doing this
interview today, Elliot, and
you're a heck of a guy, and I'm
glad I know you now.
Thank you, Howard, and
kudos to you too for doing these wonderful.
These are.
This is the future. You know, look how
Zoom
got us through the Covid pandemic with.
And now these podcasts such as you're doing
are wonderful,
And I think the next thing that's gonna
happen is artificial intelligence where you're gonna be
able to wake up each morning,
punch something in on a computer and it's
gonna... Gonna tell you what your life would
have been like if you didn't get so.
Probably we'll just show you a gravestone.
It's
that's a great idea for a new app
there, Elliott.
There we go. Where you would've have been
without Aa and sobriety. Yeah. And what been
without Aa. Yeah.
Well, thanks again. Thank you, Howard, my friend.
See you down the road. Thank you. God
bless. Bye bye. Bye bye.
Well my friends, that's it for today's episode
of Aa recovery interviews. I want to thank
my guest Elliott at m for sharing his
story, and thank you for tuning in.
If you've enjoyed the interviews in this podcast
series, will you please share it with others?
This show is another helping hand of Aa,
we can all extend to alcoholic everywhere.
If you want to contact me directly with
any comments, questions or suggestions,
simply email howard at a recovery interviews dot
com.
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By the way, this podcast strictly adhere to
Aes 12 traditions, and all general service office
guidelines for Safeguard and Anonymity online.
I pay all production costs.
Aa recovery interviews and my guests do not
speak for or represent Aa at large.
This podcast is simply my way of giving
back to Aa that which has been so
freely given to me.
The next episode of A cover interviews on
the way, so keep coming back. It'll be
here soon.