1 00:00:08,763 --> 00:00:10,358 You're listening to Rattle and Pedal, 2 00:00:10,996 --> 00:00:13,708 diversion thoughts on marketing and growing professional services 3 00:00:13,708 --> 00:00:16,659 firms. Your hosts are Jason Malik and Jeff 4 00:00:16,738 --> 00:00:17,137 Mack mckay. 5 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:23,930 Well, Jeff, do you remember the bi centennial 6 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:24,409 by any chance? 7 00:00:26,163 --> 00:00:26,721 I do. 8 00:00:27,453 --> 00:00:29,122 Do you really really That is a vivid 9 00:00:29,122 --> 00:00:31,030 in memory for me. Well, tell me about 10 00:00:31,030 --> 00:00:32,620 it. Tell tell me about your memories of 11 00:00:32,620 --> 00:00:34,845 the bi centennial. So what what what what 12 00:00:34,845 --> 00:00:37,169 do you remember? Oh my gosh. So that 13 00:00:37,169 --> 00:00:38,847 would have been 19 76. 14 00:00:39,086 --> 00:00:41,823 Right. I hope you know that. Yeah. 19 15 00:00:42,282 --> 00:00:43,880 19 76. 16 00:00:45,489 --> 00:00:47,399 I would have been in grade school, 17 00:00:49,230 --> 00:00:51,538 and it was a huge. 18 00:00:52,905 --> 00:00:55,208 Celebration in in my hometown. I grew up 19 00:00:55,208 --> 00:00:57,456 in a in a small town, and 20 00:00:57,989 --> 00:01:00,316 I I just remember getting caught up in 21 00:01:00,372 --> 00:01:01,443 the pan 22 00:01:01,976 --> 00:01:03,167 a bit all. 23 00:01:03,802 --> 00:01:05,708 I mean, all the red white and blue 24 00:01:05,708 --> 00:01:07,241 and eagles and 25 00:01:08,091 --> 00:01:08,568 you know, 26 00:01:09,696 --> 00:01:11,684 founding fathers and all that stuff. I I 27 00:01:11,684 --> 00:01:13,434 thought it was so cool. I mean, like 28 00:01:13,434 --> 00:01:14,252 it was yesterday. 29 00:01:14,866 --> 00:01:15,662 That's super cool. 30 00:01:16,392 --> 00:01:17,901 I I'm I'm too young to have any 31 00:01:17,901 --> 00:01:19,647 memories of it. I I... Which is why 32 00:01:19,727 --> 00:01:21,236 I asked because I knew, you know, maybe 33 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:22,824 you would have some memories. I knew they'd 34 00:01:22,824 --> 00:01:25,230 be fuzzy at best. But, yeah, I I 35 00:01:25,230 --> 00:01:27,310 have... I... My only memories are, you know, 36 00:01:27,469 --> 00:01:29,069 bi quarters. I used to have a less 37 00:01:29,069 --> 00:01:31,404 of bi quarters. Remember those. The only and 38 00:01:31,404 --> 00:01:32,996 then there was, like a special quarter because 39 00:01:32,996 --> 00:01:34,669 back in the day for listeners who actually, 40 00:01:34,828 --> 00:01:36,500 I've seen a quarter. Maybe they don't see 41 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:38,889 him anymore. But they used still be 1 42 00:01:38,889 --> 00:01:40,579 eagle on the back of, quarter. Right? There 43 00:01:40,579 --> 00:01:41,378 wasn't all the states. 44 00:01:42,336 --> 00:01:44,334 And they had the special quarter for 19 45 00:01:44,334 --> 00:01:46,491 76 that had, like, a flag or something. 46 00:01:46,651 --> 00:01:47,550 It was a little different 47 00:01:47,942 --> 00:01:49,292 and I used to kinda collect those when 48 00:01:49,371 --> 00:01:50,403 I was a little kick because I thought 49 00:01:50,403 --> 00:01:53,102 they really need. So anyway, we're having a 50 00:01:53,102 --> 00:01:54,848 bi centennial today. That's why I asked. This 51 00:01:54,848 --> 00:01:56,118 is our by centennial. 52 00:01:56,768 --> 00:01:58,856 So hopefully, this will conjure as many 53 00:01:59,230 --> 00:02:02,247 positive warm memories for our listeners as the 54 00:02:02,485 --> 00:02:05,280 American Bi hit does for. For you and 55 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,108 I. So that's our goal. 56 00:02:07,903 --> 00:02:10,526 So American flags. I cannot believe. 57 00:02:11,003 --> 00:02:13,481 Jason, I can't believe we're at 200 episode. 58 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:14,117 Created? 59 00:02:14,912 --> 00:02:15,866 III 60 00:02:15,866 --> 00:02:16,820 really cannot... 61 00:02:17,535 --> 00:02:20,396 I remember the day you asked me to 62 00:02:20,396 --> 00:02:22,104 to do this podcast. 63 00:02:23,041 --> 00:02:24,796 And if you'd said, hey, we'll get to 64 00:02:24,796 --> 00:02:27,509 200 episodes and we'll do this for years, 65 00:02:27,749 --> 00:02:29,366 and I would upset 66 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:31,118 Right. Crazy. 67 00:02:31,997 --> 00:02:33,355 We know what's funny about that by the 68 00:02:33,355 --> 00:02:33,595 way. 69 00:02:34,234 --> 00:02:35,753 When we start when we started this, there 70 00:02:35,753 --> 00:02:38,230 was another podcast in this genre, and I 71 00:02:38,230 --> 00:02:40,240 knew the. I knew the producers of that 72 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,117 podcast. And they... 73 00:02:42,234 --> 00:02:43,988 Eventually, at some point in this journey, they 74 00:02:43,988 --> 00:02:45,504 either shut it down or handed it off 75 00:02:45,504 --> 00:02:46,780 to someone new, and I asked him why. 76 00:02:46,939 --> 00:02:47,897 And you said, when we ran out Of 77 00:02:47,897 --> 00:02:48,455 I stuff to talk about. 78 00:02:49,582 --> 00:02:51,407 And I was like, what do... What? Like, 79 00:02:51,566 --> 00:02:52,122 I mean, we... 80 00:02:53,154 --> 00:02:55,059 I think our list is never ending. Right? 81 00:02:55,535 --> 00:02:57,122 There's always stuff. You're like, oh, my gosh 82 00:02:57,122 --> 00:02:58,334 there's so much more we can talk about 83 00:02:58,334 --> 00:02:59,694 it. It's... I I always feel like it's 84 00:02:59,694 --> 00:03:01,775 the inverse problem. It's that, you know, there's 85 00:03:01,775 --> 00:03:03,134 so much to talk about how do we 86 00:03:03,134 --> 00:03:05,308 decide what not to talk about. Much And 87 00:03:05,308 --> 00:03:07,302 then every time I think it's absolutely... Or 88 00:03:07,302 --> 00:03:08,818 listeners will make a request, and then we 89 00:03:08,818 --> 00:03:10,572 suddenly realize what we think is a single 90 00:03:10,572 --> 00:03:11,290 episode is like 9, 91 00:03:12,008 --> 00:03:13,763 because there's so much more to unpack than 92 00:03:13,763 --> 00:03:14,162 we thought. 93 00:03:14,974 --> 00:03:16,643 And they we get some interesting guests and 94 00:03:16,643 --> 00:03:17,914 they they teach us a bunch of stuff. 95 00:03:18,073 --> 00:03:18,471 So 96 00:03:19,504 --> 00:03:21,570 yeah. It's hard to believe. Isn't it? Well, 97 00:03:21,729 --> 00:03:22,365 in any new? 98 00:03:23,659 --> 00:03:24,780 As you say that, 99 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:29,680 the thought I had 100 00:03:30,219 --> 00:03:30,719 was 101 00:03:31,834 --> 00:03:33,694 even if we did not have 102 00:03:34,394 --> 00:03:35,834 a listening audience. 103 00:03:36,394 --> 00:03:38,334 Right? People that that, 104 00:03:38,875 --> 00:03:40,954 you know, listen to us week after week, 105 00:03:41,769 --> 00:03:44,163 I would still wanna have these conversations on 106 00:03:44,163 --> 00:03:47,058 the regular cadence that we have. Well, the 107 00:03:47,436 --> 00:03:48,793 yes. I mean, the funny thing about it 108 00:03:48,793 --> 00:03:50,070 is that, like, for me, 109 00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:53,418 the number 1 reason I do this is 110 00:03:53,418 --> 00:03:55,559 to learn. I I feel like I I 111 00:03:55,559 --> 00:03:58,280 look back over those 200 episodes and 112 00:03:58,749 --> 00:04:00,587 I've learned so much from you and from 113 00:04:00,587 --> 00:04:02,425 our guests, and it's so it's sort of 114 00:04:02,425 --> 00:04:04,682 like, I always kinda feel like our listeners 115 00:04:04,822 --> 00:04:06,580 are are selfish. I feel like our listeners 116 00:04:06,580 --> 00:04:08,027 are just along for the ride of a 117 00:04:08,027 --> 00:04:10,175 of a journey of just learning and discovery 118 00:04:10,175 --> 00:04:11,528 that we're both on. And, 119 00:04:12,244 --> 00:04:14,233 hopefully, they're learning along the way with us 120 00:04:14,233 --> 00:04:14,733 because 121 00:04:15,585 --> 00:04:17,437 we're There's just so much to learn about 122 00:04:17,437 --> 00:04:19,115 how to run a great firm. You know, 123 00:04:19,355 --> 00:04:20,554 how to market a great firm. How to 124 00:04:20,554 --> 00:04:22,072 grow a great firm. How to be a 125 00:04:22,072 --> 00:04:23,190 great firm. What a great firm? If it 126 00:04:23,190 --> 00:04:25,042 is. Right? Let's there's just so much to 127 00:04:25,042 --> 00:04:26,558 be learned and you never seem to find 128 00:04:26,558 --> 00:04:27,915 the bottom. I never find the bottom of 129 00:04:27,915 --> 00:04:29,830 that well. I'm always kinda surprised by something 130 00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:31,506 new. I'm like, Never thought about that. I 131 00:04:31,506 --> 00:04:33,273 didn't know that. And so for me, that's 132 00:04:33,273 --> 00:04:34,864 the joy of the whole thing, more than 133 00:04:34,864 --> 00:04:35,739 anything. So... 134 00:04:36,455 --> 00:04:38,841 Well, this to me is 1 of the... 135 00:04:39,572 --> 00:04:40,072 Coolest 136 00:04:40,846 --> 00:04:43,735 industries to be in, and I 137 00:04:44,508 --> 00:04:45,008 stumbled 138 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:46,658 into it. 139 00:04:47,549 --> 00:04:49,323 But what I absolutely 140 00:04:49,699 --> 00:04:50,837 love about this 141 00:04:51,611 --> 00:04:52,111 industry 142 00:04:52,886 --> 00:04:53,386 is 143 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,059 how many 144 00:04:55,833 --> 00:04:56,232 smart, 145 00:04:57,363 --> 00:04:57,863 driven, 146 00:04:58,960 --> 00:04:59,460 collaborative 147 00:05:00,397 --> 00:05:00,897 people 148 00:05:01,754 --> 00:05:02,952 are drawn to this. 149 00:05:03,989 --> 00:05:05,826 And it is so much fun, 150 00:05:06,479 --> 00:05:09,134 to be working with people solving big problems, 151 00:05:09,592 --> 00:05:11,289 and the problems keep evolving, 152 00:05:12,226 --> 00:05:13,125 and the problems 153 00:05:13,583 --> 00:05:14,083 are 154 00:05:14,461 --> 00:05:14,961 important 155 00:05:15,434 --> 00:05:19,105 and impactful to the, you know, to the 156 00:05:19,105 --> 00:05:22,218 to the economy, to the companies and to 157 00:05:22,218 --> 00:05:23,436 the individuals 158 00:05:24,868 --> 00:05:25,528 and it's 159 00:05:26,066 --> 00:05:27,924 it it's just a cool 160 00:05:28,862 --> 00:05:30,140 industry that just never gets... 161 00:05:31,034 --> 00:05:31,534 Boring 162 00:05:32,470 --> 00:05:33,769 as opposed to 163 00:05:34,306 --> 00:05:34,806 creating 164 00:05:35,424 --> 00:05:36,882 a new and improved 165 00:05:37,339 --> 00:05:38,398 toothpaste or something 166 00:05:39,255 --> 00:05:41,507 Yeah. Sku number 346. 167 00:05:41,746 --> 00:05:44,643 I love the industry. Yeah. Well, it's fascinating 168 00:05:44,862 --> 00:05:45,981 because there's just 169 00:05:47,034 --> 00:05:48,868 there's so many different types of firms that 170 00:05:48,868 --> 00:05:50,622 create so many different types of value and 171 00:05:50,622 --> 00:05:52,377 solve so many different types of problems. And 172 00:05:52,377 --> 00:05:52,877 and 173 00:05:53,413 --> 00:05:55,088 and every time you start to think you've 174 00:05:55,088 --> 00:05:56,778 kind of got your head wrap. Around or 175 00:05:56,778 --> 00:05:58,774 something, then you you find something new And 176 00:05:58,774 --> 00:05:59,891 you're like, wow, I I've never thought about 177 00:05:59,891 --> 00:06:01,089 it that way. I I've never seen a 178 00:06:01,089 --> 00:06:03,484 firm operate that way. I've never seen a 179 00:06:03,484 --> 00:06:05,454 firm market that way. Whatever it might be 180 00:06:05,812 --> 00:06:07,403 And and so I I think it's it's 181 00:06:07,403 --> 00:06:09,869 a pleasure. It's honestly a pleasure to work 182 00:06:09,869 --> 00:06:12,176 with great firms it's pleasure to talk with. 183 00:06:12,668 --> 00:06:14,498 With you and other great firms on this 184 00:06:14,498 --> 00:06:15,373 on the show. So... 185 00:06:16,327 --> 00:06:17,600 Alright. So what are we gonna do for 186 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,485 our our by centennial here? So 187 00:06:19,843 --> 00:06:21,677 here's what we've got planned listeners as how 188 00:06:21,677 --> 00:06:23,272 you're gonna spend this time with us today. 189 00:06:23,431 --> 00:06:23,909 So, 190 00:06:24,467 --> 00:06:26,062 we're just going to... We're gonna spend a 191 00:06:26,062 --> 00:06:29,026 little time talking about some of... The most 192 00:06:29,026 --> 00:06:32,050 popular episodes. The things that you you as 193 00:06:32,050 --> 00:06:34,517 listeners listen to the most, and we'll talk 194 00:06:34,517 --> 00:06:35,631 a little bit about why, 195 00:06:36,364 --> 00:06:38,380 and then we'll talk a little bit about 196 00:06:39,237 --> 00:06:40,913 some things that weren't as popular as we 197 00:06:40,913 --> 00:06:43,069 thought they might be sort of to our 198 00:06:43,069 --> 00:06:44,585 surprise and maybe talk about why. 199 00:06:45,558 --> 00:06:46,995 We're gonna talk a little bit about some 200 00:06:46,995 --> 00:06:48,512 of the things we've learned, You know, it's 201 00:06:48,512 --> 00:06:50,827 kind of both as as individuals through this 202 00:06:50,827 --> 00:06:52,902 journey and hope that you've picked up on 203 00:06:52,902 --> 00:06:54,180 them as well and we'll point you back 204 00:06:54,180 --> 00:06:56,346 to episodes where you can kinda dig into 205 00:06:56,346 --> 00:06:57,643 that if you want. So 206 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,411 that's the goal. So you know, let's jump 207 00:07:00,411 --> 00:07:01,128 into this show here. 208 00:07:02,338 --> 00:07:04,086 So most popular, I think this was actually 209 00:07:04,086 --> 00:07:06,390 really interesting because it's... You know, 210 00:07:07,423 --> 00:07:09,727 when we... When we produce the show as 211 00:07:09,727 --> 00:07:12,282 listeners know, We try to be thoughtful about 212 00:07:12,282 --> 00:07:14,344 the topics you wanna cover and frequently, the 213 00:07:14,344 --> 00:07:17,303 topics will be multi episodes. Right? So we'll 214 00:07:17,438 --> 00:07:18,152 we'll go after, 215 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:22,490 an issue and we'll cover it over 3458 216 00:07:22,629 --> 00:07:24,245 episodes, and we'll have 217 00:07:24,623 --> 00:07:25,899 discussions within the 2 of us we'll have 218 00:07:25,899 --> 00:07:27,813 different people. So it's interesting to see what 219 00:07:27,813 --> 00:07:29,900 did really well and what what maybe didn't 220 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:31,650 do as well. So, I know, you you 221 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:33,003 pulled the date on this. You wanna you 222 00:07:33,003 --> 00:07:34,674 wanna start with what was what was some 223 00:07:34,674 --> 00:07:35,867 of the most... What... What some of the 224 00:07:35,867 --> 00:07:38,016 more popular things that we've covered over the 225 00:07:38,016 --> 00:07:38,096 years. 226 00:07:39,065 --> 00:07:40,018 So top 3, 227 00:07:40,654 --> 00:07:44,572 the top 1 did not surprise me 228 00:07:44,946 --> 00:07:45,502 at all. 229 00:07:46,473 --> 00:07:47,292 It was 230 00:07:47,829 --> 00:07:49,982 Charlie Green and cross selling. 231 00:07:51,099 --> 00:07:54,072 I have been following Charlie Green for 232 00:07:54,608 --> 00:07:55,108 decades. 233 00:07:56,855 --> 00:07:59,185 You know, the the trusted adviser 234 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,072 books that he's written. 235 00:08:02,027 --> 00:08:04,834 His impact on this industry has 236 00:08:05,943 --> 00:08:09,793 is un unfavorable. It's been phenomenal. And I'd 237 00:08:09,852 --> 00:08:10,352 loved 238 00:08:11,128 --> 00:08:13,715 that he joined us on this show, and 239 00:08:13,852 --> 00:08:15,386 it was just a great 240 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:16,420 conversation 241 00:08:17,113 --> 00:08:18,965 around the perennial perennial 242 00:08:19,992 --> 00:08:20,492 issues 243 00:08:20,946 --> 00:08:21,901 that firms face. 244 00:08:22,537 --> 00:08:24,787 His his thinking is 245 00:08:25,321 --> 00:08:27,492 evergreen in is as relevant 246 00:08:27,867 --> 00:08:30,530 today as it was when he wrote his 247 00:08:30,905 --> 00:08:31,700 his first book. 248 00:08:32,337 --> 00:08:34,427 And I thought it was really cool 249 00:08:34,962 --> 00:08:35,335 to 250 00:08:36,092 --> 00:08:37,629 introduce him to a new 251 00:08:38,007 --> 00:08:38,507 generation 252 00:08:39,044 --> 00:08:39,762 of listeners, 253 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:42,416 because I'm surprised 254 00:08:43,206 --> 00:08:45,196 when I'm working with my clients, 255 00:08:46,469 --> 00:08:48,322 the number of people that haven't read 256 00:08:49,175 --> 00:08:51,816 his stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, we 257 00:08:51,816 --> 00:08:52,452 gotta get it to you. 258 00:08:54,362 --> 00:08:57,519 Because this is really important stuff. So 259 00:08:57,878 --> 00:08:59,571 him shooting to the top 260 00:08:59,946 --> 00:09:02,413 didn't surprise me at all. Well, it's interesting 261 00:09:02,413 --> 00:09:03,846 about something you just said by the way 262 00:09:03,846 --> 00:09:06,255 is that the concept of the trusted adviser 263 00:09:06,392 --> 00:09:08,958 is something that I think every single listener 264 00:09:08,958 --> 00:09:10,713 has heard about or knows about and many 265 00:09:10,713 --> 00:09:12,010 people have have read, 266 00:09:12,468 --> 00:09:12,787 you know, 267 00:09:13,744 --> 00:09:15,977 Charlie thinking on this, but maybe they didn't 268 00:09:15,977 --> 00:09:17,986 know Charlie. Right? So I think that, you 269 00:09:17,986 --> 00:09:20,618 know, in thought leadership, great ideas, you know, 270 00:09:20,857 --> 00:09:23,011 compelling points of view, often will super seed 271 00:09:23,011 --> 00:09:24,686 the authors, and they'll even super see the 272 00:09:24,686 --> 00:09:26,361 firms. We've talked about this a lot. Right? 273 00:09:26,934 --> 00:09:29,008 Know, concepts like the challenger sale. But most 274 00:09:29,008 --> 00:09:30,764 listeners do not know who authored that and 275 00:09:30,764 --> 00:09:32,439 do not know the firm that those those 276 00:09:32,439 --> 00:09:33,635 individuals worked for at the time they authored 277 00:09:33,635 --> 00:09:34,926 it, probably know the book. 278 00:09:35,802 --> 00:09:37,816 They know the thinking. And it shaped their 279 00:09:37,873 --> 00:09:40,263 worldview on b to b and professional services 280 00:09:40,263 --> 00:09:41,115 selling. So 281 00:09:41,473 --> 00:09:43,225 And then I also... Another thing I wanted 282 00:09:43,225 --> 00:09:44,420 to say about this is I think about 283 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:46,013 it is that I think that the re... 284 00:09:46,251 --> 00:09:48,720 Another reason that that episode was so powerful 285 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:49,835 for people I believe. 286 00:09:50,407 --> 00:09:52,657 Is just that there every every 287 00:09:53,826 --> 00:09:54,326 every 288 00:09:55,337 --> 00:09:57,802 practitioner, everybody who's who works in a firm 289 00:09:57,802 --> 00:09:59,392 wants to be a trusted adviser. 290 00:09:59,963 --> 00:10:02,976 But I know that many people really actually 291 00:10:02,976 --> 00:10:05,910 are. And so trying to get underneath that, 292 00:10:06,386 --> 00:10:07,179 understand how to... 293 00:10:07,987 --> 00:10:10,630 Change your daily behave... Habits and behaviors 294 00:10:11,083 --> 00:10:13,464 to get closer to that realization of that 295 00:10:13,464 --> 00:10:14,892 goal, I think is really critical. 296 00:10:15,544 --> 00:10:17,461 So I think it's kinda like, required listening. 297 00:10:17,621 --> 00:10:19,059 If you're gonna listen to this show for 298 00:10:19,059 --> 00:10:21,376 a, you know, if you're gonna give us 299 00:10:21,376 --> 00:10:23,545 your time over you gotta listen to that 300 00:10:23,545 --> 00:10:25,139 episode because it's it's sort of foundational to 301 00:10:25,139 --> 00:10:25,458 everything. 302 00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:29,444 The whole series on selling that we did 303 00:10:29,444 --> 00:10:31,789 is all rooted in that. Right? So 304 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:33,670 what else is on the list? Yeah. That 305 00:10:33,670 --> 00:10:35,019 was there was a couple there that surprised 306 00:10:35,019 --> 00:10:37,400 us? Yeah. So the second 1... 307 00:10:39,083 --> 00:10:41,943 Surprised me but didn't surprise me, and it 308 00:10:41,943 --> 00:10:42,443 was 309 00:10:43,373 --> 00:10:44,349 Christy data 310 00:10:44,802 --> 00:10:46,732 from the family business consulting 311 00:10:47,106 --> 00:10:47,424 group. 312 00:10:48,634 --> 00:10:51,611 As part of our value creation series 313 00:10:52,390 --> 00:10:53,449 on creating 314 00:10:54,787 --> 00:10:55,287 multi 315 00:10:56,465 --> 00:10:56,965 generational 316 00:10:57,519 --> 00:10:58,019 value. 317 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:01,028 In what professional services firms can learn from 318 00:11:01,028 --> 00:11:02,086 family businesses. 319 00:11:03,182 --> 00:11:04,617 And and and to me, 320 00:11:05,335 --> 00:11:07,424 I'm I'm the 1 who invited her on, 321 00:11:07,584 --> 00:11:09,419 I had the relationship with her. I got 322 00:11:09,419 --> 00:11:10,717 my started at Anderson 323 00:11:11,654 --> 00:11:13,809 in family business consulting and came out of 324 00:11:13,809 --> 00:11:15,266 a a family business 325 00:11:16,058 --> 00:11:17,753 To me, it seemed really logical 326 00:11:18,846 --> 00:11:19,346 that 327 00:11:19,802 --> 00:11:22,533 professional services firms could learn so much 328 00:11:23,323 --> 00:11:25,892 from somebody, like like Christy 329 00:11:26,268 --> 00:11:26,768 because 330 00:11:27,302 --> 00:11:29,872 I saw so many similarities 331 00:11:30,247 --> 00:11:32,078 between my family's business, 332 00:11:33,207 --> 00:11:35,616 and the pride of ownership of 333 00:11:35,991 --> 00:11:36,809 professional services 334 00:11:38,059 --> 00:11:40,563 that I just felt like there were something 335 00:11:40,621 --> 00:11:43,730 there if they could recon contextualize value creation, 336 00:11:44,687 --> 00:11:45,665 it would be 337 00:11:46,201 --> 00:11:47,897 incredibly useful to 338 00:11:48,289 --> 00:11:51,158 I had no idea it would be that 339 00:11:51,158 --> 00:11:51,658 popular. 340 00:11:52,035 --> 00:11:53,013 Yeah. But 341 00:11:54,267 --> 00:11:55,542 I I think people... 342 00:11:56,353 --> 00:11:58,126 And in real leaders, 343 00:11:58,819 --> 00:11:59,717 sincere leaders 344 00:12:00,092 --> 00:12:02,660 thinking those long term perspectives 345 00:12:03,289 --> 00:12:05,847 and I think that's probably what drew them 346 00:12:05,847 --> 00:12:06,806 to that episode. 347 00:12:07,765 --> 00:12:09,043 Yeah. I think the other the interesting thing 348 00:12:09,043 --> 00:12:10,322 about that. We you when you... We the 349 00:12:10,322 --> 00:12:12,720 the topic of value creation in general that... 350 00:12:12,974 --> 00:12:14,805 Phrase as has been thrown around the last, 351 00:12:14,965 --> 00:12:17,354 probably 4 or 5 years, and I'll lump 352 00:12:17,354 --> 00:12:19,026 in like the exit planning community on there. 353 00:12:19,265 --> 00:12:21,990 Right? A lot of that kinda is seen 354 00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:23,769 as language for 355 00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:26,709 how you build up organization to sell, how 356 00:12:26,709 --> 00:12:28,629 you build an organization to exit. And I 357 00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:31,044 actually think that maybe the reason that that 358 00:12:31,204 --> 00:12:32,422 Christy episode 359 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,195 struck so such a strong cord is that 360 00:12:35,195 --> 00:12:36,552 at most firms. Most firms... 361 00:12:37,191 --> 00:12:38,787 You know, they they wanna put a legacy 362 00:12:38,787 --> 00:12:40,797 as you've pointed out through the years. Their 363 00:12:40,797 --> 00:12:42,710 goal is to to to leave the firm 364 00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:44,622 better for the next generation of leaders than 365 00:12:44,622 --> 00:12:46,694 they than they found it. And that's a 366 00:12:46,694 --> 00:12:47,331 lot of firms. 367 00:12:47,904 --> 00:12:50,461 And so that idea of multi generational value, 368 00:12:50,701 --> 00:12:52,859 I think really resonated for a lot of 369 00:12:52,859 --> 00:12:53,898 firms and a lot of people. 370 00:12:54,537 --> 00:12:56,615 And and and Christy was a great guest. 371 00:12:56,948 --> 00:12:57,742 So... Alright. 372 00:12:58,694 --> 00:13:00,440 What else? What else is it the to 373 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,028 round out to top 3. Round the top 374 00:13:02,028 --> 00:13:03,694 3? Yeah. To give us the last of 375 00:13:03,694 --> 00:13:06,174 the top 3. I'm not surprised by this 376 00:13:06,174 --> 00:13:06,674 1 377 00:13:07,287 --> 00:13:10,390 at all, and it was the rain maker 378 00:13:10,390 --> 00:13:11,185 genome project. 379 00:13:11,918 --> 00:13:14,231 With Matt Dixon and and Rory, 380 00:13:15,507 --> 00:13:17,522 sharing their new insights 381 00:13:18,059 --> 00:13:20,793 from their big research study on professional services 382 00:13:20,851 --> 00:13:21,090 firms. 383 00:13:22,701 --> 00:13:23,600 I think there's 384 00:13:23,978 --> 00:13:25,116 so much value 385 00:13:25,494 --> 00:13:26,234 in that 386 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:27,510 empirical 387 00:13:28,686 --> 00:13:29,165 studies. 388 00:13:30,058 --> 00:13:33,248 Firms really value that. I think it's a 389 00:13:33,248 --> 00:13:35,480 a great indicator of what firms should be 390 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,032 doing from a thought leadership perspective as well. 391 00:13:39,163 --> 00:13:41,305 But people are looking for that edge. 392 00:13:42,336 --> 00:13:44,954 And if there's research out there that's pointing 393 00:13:44,954 --> 00:13:45,509 to an edge, 394 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:47,513 that they can take advantage of. 395 00:13:48,390 --> 00:13:49,186 They wanna know it. 396 00:13:50,222 --> 00:13:52,453 So I wasn't surprised by that 1 at 397 00:13:52,453 --> 00:13:55,263 all. Plus, those guys have strong brands 398 00:13:56,291 --> 00:13:57,347 and they've demonstrated 399 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,300 a lot of valuable insights in the past, 400 00:14:01,856 --> 00:14:03,526 they're it's like, hey, if they're showing up, 401 00:14:04,177 --> 00:14:05,632 I wanna hear what they have to say 402 00:14:05,688 --> 00:14:08,154 this time around because they've been... Matt's been 403 00:14:08,154 --> 00:14:10,062 on the show a couple of times. Yeah. 404 00:14:10,301 --> 00:14:12,863 I think too that that research the the 405 00:14:12,863 --> 00:14:14,699 nature of that research in general, it's it's 406 00:14:14,699 --> 00:14:16,855 it's sort of required listening, I think, if 407 00:14:16,855 --> 00:14:17,674 you are 408 00:14:18,212 --> 00:14:19,111 trying to 409 00:14:19,888 --> 00:14:21,506 grow a firm in 410 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:23,120 this next 411 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:24,540 5 to 10 years. 412 00:14:25,259 --> 00:14:27,040 Because I feel like that research 413 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:29,440 is the 414 00:14:30,314 --> 00:14:33,188 the go to market model going forward for 415 00:14:33,188 --> 00:14:33,986 a lot of firms, 416 00:14:36,381 --> 00:14:38,058 for the next era. Right? Like, it's like, 417 00:14:38,138 --> 00:14:39,596 there was a era from 418 00:14:39,908 --> 00:14:42,792 you know, the mid nineties to the 419 00:14:43,246 --> 00:14:44,358 2015 420 00:14:44,358 --> 00:14:45,868 range that was defined by, 421 00:14:46,822 --> 00:14:48,332 certain types of activities, 422 00:14:48,983 --> 00:14:50,653 And this, I think is setting the stage 423 00:14:50,653 --> 00:14:51,767 for what is really next. 424 00:14:52,483 --> 00:14:54,392 So I think that's really maybe why that 425 00:14:54,392 --> 00:14:55,347 that did so well. 426 00:14:55,918 --> 00:14:58,225 And the research is really, really compelling and 427 00:14:58,225 --> 00:14:59,896 it's really well done. I which Also think 428 00:14:59,896 --> 00:15:01,407 is really fit the heart of it all. 429 00:15:02,202 --> 00:15:03,735 But you left 1 off. But I find 430 00:15:03,735 --> 00:15:05,334 interesting is that, you know, we we talked 431 00:15:05,334 --> 00:15:07,095 about the what what was most popular and 432 00:15:07,095 --> 00:15:09,735 you left... You you you left actually the 433 00:15:09,735 --> 00:15:11,748 superstar off the list. Which I thought is 434 00:15:11,748 --> 00:15:12,308 really interesting. 435 00:15:13,107 --> 00:15:15,184 So you remember what the what the, what? 436 00:15:15,663 --> 00:15:18,460 Was it? Which 1? So you actually left 437 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:21,746 off. The the highest performing episode we ever 438 00:15:21,746 --> 00:15:21,906 did, 439 00:15:22,943 --> 00:15:25,576 which is an episode that you and I 440 00:15:25,576 --> 00:15:25,735 did, 441 00:15:26,547 --> 00:15:28,539 on creating an intellectual capital strategy. 442 00:15:29,256 --> 00:15:33,081 And actually, I found that pretty pretty fascinating 443 00:15:33,081 --> 00:15:35,572 that that was the top performer of everything 444 00:15:35,572 --> 00:15:37,809 we've done of 200 episodes. That... I did 445 00:15:37,809 --> 00:15:38,848 not see that coming. 446 00:15:39,967 --> 00:15:41,725 And some of it is just mainly because 447 00:15:41,725 --> 00:15:44,054 of the phrase intellectual capital? I find as 448 00:15:44,054 --> 00:15:45,968 such a stuffy phrase that I'm like, does 449 00:15:45,968 --> 00:15:47,664 anybody even know what that means? Like 450 00:15:48,361 --> 00:15:50,753 and so like... Does anybody... Is this gonna 451 00:15:50,753 --> 00:15:51,551 resonate with anybody? 452 00:15:53,563 --> 00:15:55,641 Not necessarily the topic, but I I think 453 00:15:55,641 --> 00:15:56,780 it's interesting that 454 00:15:57,239 --> 00:15:59,237 that there is a lot of people in 455 00:15:59,237 --> 00:16:00,296 this industry 456 00:16:00,675 --> 00:16:01,175 that 457 00:16:02,287 --> 00:16:03,345 feel a 458 00:16:03,723 --> 00:16:05,636 a sense that they don't have a good 459 00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:08,109 handle on the issues that they need to 460 00:16:08,109 --> 00:16:11,393 build thought leadership or intellectual capital around. And 461 00:16:11,393 --> 00:16:13,387 if you contrast that with when we just 462 00:16:13,387 --> 00:16:15,302 talked about, the Rain maker genome project, 463 00:16:16,339 --> 00:16:18,253 Matt and Rory and the team at Dc 464 00:16:18,253 --> 00:16:20,247 insights have a lot of clarity about the 465 00:16:20,247 --> 00:16:22,897 issues that they wanna build leadership around and 466 00:16:22,897 --> 00:16:24,495 most firms do not. And that's sort of, 467 00:16:24,574 --> 00:16:26,033 like, a, a very 468 00:16:26,412 --> 00:16:28,900 clear contrast of what is going on there. 469 00:16:29,059 --> 00:16:31,683 So, you know, I I'm pleasantly surprised for 470 00:16:31,683 --> 00:16:33,195 that to be at the top of the 471 00:16:33,195 --> 00:16:35,183 list because obviously, that's the hard soul of 472 00:16:35,183 --> 00:16:36,478 our business so 473 00:16:36,869 --> 00:16:38,543 good to know that... But that's important to 474 00:16:38,543 --> 00:16:40,457 people and that they're struggling with that. And 475 00:16:40,457 --> 00:16:42,211 that... And that also that the thinking that 476 00:16:42,211 --> 00:16:43,885 you and I put together on that, cut 477 00:16:43,885 --> 00:16:45,812 through the noise enough that people. It's found 478 00:16:45,812 --> 00:16:47,403 value in it. So that's that's awesome. 479 00:16:48,675 --> 00:16:50,504 So... Alright. So if that was the... If 480 00:16:50,504 --> 00:16:52,651 that was the greatest hits, then let's talk 481 00:16:52,651 --> 00:16:54,258 about the things that maybe didn't do as 482 00:16:54,258 --> 00:16:55,612 well. I'm not gonna say they're like, the 483 00:16:55,612 --> 00:16:57,365 greatest message because I think that's being way 484 00:16:57,365 --> 00:17:00,312 too extreme. But there things that we thought 485 00:17:00,312 --> 00:17:02,558 might do be more popular than they they 486 00:17:02,558 --> 00:17:03,754 turned out to. So it was a little 487 00:17:03,754 --> 00:17:05,688 bit of a surprise that they really weren't 488 00:17:05,746 --> 00:17:07,738 in the upper echelon line. You wanna lead 489 00:17:07,738 --> 00:17:09,189 us into that again, Sure. 490 00:17:09,988 --> 00:17:13,765 Well, let's let's segue away from number 1 491 00:17:14,703 --> 00:17:15,203 to 492 00:17:16,222 --> 00:17:19,354 1 of the less popular ones that should 493 00:17:19,354 --> 00:17:20,093 have been 494 00:17:20,472 --> 00:17:20,972 popular, 495 00:17:21,431 --> 00:17:22,650 and that is 496 00:17:23,748 --> 00:17:25,026 developing a point of view. 497 00:17:26,555 --> 00:17:27,747 IIII 498 00:17:27,747 --> 00:17:28,382 can't believe that. 499 00:17:29,256 --> 00:17:31,957 It's it's the heart of positioning. It's the 500 00:17:31,957 --> 00:17:34,046 heart of cutting through 501 00:17:34,674 --> 00:17:35,812 all the marketing 502 00:17:36,588 --> 00:17:37,088 noise 503 00:17:37,943 --> 00:17:40,038 is having a 504 00:17:40,575 --> 00:17:41,054 strong, 505 00:17:41,612 --> 00:17:42,112 compelling 506 00:17:43,127 --> 00:17:43,627 differentiated 507 00:17:44,418 --> 00:17:44,976 point of view. 508 00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:48,265 And I would have thought 509 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,460 that 510 00:17:50,394 --> 00:17:52,561 people would have just gobble that up to 511 00:17:52,561 --> 00:17:54,795 say, alright. How do I create that? Because 512 00:17:54,875 --> 00:17:55,513 I want that. 513 00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:58,703 But I don't know. You you you said, 514 00:17:58,942 --> 00:18:00,378 maybe we mis titled that. 515 00:18:01,748 --> 00:18:04,687 If me maybe we did. What, yeah I 516 00:18:04,687 --> 00:18:06,275 think you've heard me said. I I I've 517 00:18:06,275 --> 00:18:08,420 come to the conclusion over our journey on 518 00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:09,611 this is that the point of view is 519 00:18:09,611 --> 00:18:11,452 the lever for everything in the firm. I 520 00:18:11,452 --> 00:18:12,429 mean, for everything, 521 00:18:13,199 --> 00:18:16,136 for the culture for hiring, for research investments, 522 00:18:16,295 --> 00:18:19,406 for marketing priorities, for business development priorities, And 523 00:18:19,565 --> 00:18:20,995 I I actually think that the fact that 524 00:18:20,995 --> 00:18:22,743 the rain remake genome project is at the 525 00:18:22,743 --> 00:18:24,967 top of this list or Charlie Green is 526 00:18:24,967 --> 00:18:26,794 the top of this list makes the case 527 00:18:26,794 --> 00:18:27,453 for that 528 00:18:27,985 --> 00:18:28,485 because 529 00:18:29,034 --> 00:18:32,064 Both those instances, you're talking about firms or 530 00:18:32,064 --> 00:18:34,696 people that have built such compelling point of 531 00:18:34,696 --> 00:18:36,052 use at the point of view, super seed 532 00:18:36,052 --> 00:18:37,726 them as individuals and super proceed their firms. 533 00:18:39,019 --> 00:18:40,776 And so it's driven, you know, 534 00:18:41,815 --> 00:18:44,691 exponential growth for themselves in the industry. Right? 535 00:18:44,851 --> 00:18:45,351 So 536 00:18:45,824 --> 00:18:48,618 III do find an interesting j j position 537 00:18:48,618 --> 00:18:49,177 where it's like, 538 00:18:50,135 --> 00:18:52,689 everyone's interested in hearing how do I figure 539 00:18:52,689 --> 00:18:54,525 out what issues to build... 540 00:18:55,179 --> 00:18:57,971 A thought leadership program or intellectual capital agenda 541 00:18:57,971 --> 00:18:58,289 around. 542 00:18:59,247 --> 00:19:00,682 But when it comes to, how do I 543 00:19:00,682 --> 00:19:03,235 actually make that stuff compelling, then it's not 544 00:19:03,235 --> 00:19:04,431 as much interest. So it's like, 545 00:19:06,676 --> 00:19:08,109 I I think it's... Like you said, I 546 00:19:08,189 --> 00:19:09,781 I think it's really, really surprising. 547 00:19:11,453 --> 00:19:13,125 But maybe maybe we just mis title it. 548 00:19:13,539 --> 00:19:15,217 Maybe we're using the long language. Maybe maybe 549 00:19:15,217 --> 00:19:17,294 we should re title Poe as something else. 550 00:19:17,853 --> 00:19:21,699 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it goes... To a a 551 00:19:21,699 --> 00:19:24,588 couple of other episodes that we did 552 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:26,897 on fear 553 00:19:27,273 --> 00:19:28,388 with inside firms. 554 00:19:29,517 --> 00:19:31,500 That we're kind of in the in the 555 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:32,000 normal 556 00:19:32,452 --> 00:19:34,991 distribution, right, under the middle of the bell 557 00:19:34,991 --> 00:19:36,998 curve in terms of their popularity 558 00:19:37,864 --> 00:19:39,879 I would think those might be higher 559 00:19:41,133 --> 00:19:42,351 in terms of value 560 00:19:43,445 --> 00:19:43,945 because 561 00:19:44,801 --> 00:19:46,098 fear inhibits. 562 00:19:47,289 --> 00:19:47,608 Growth. 563 00:19:48,726 --> 00:19:51,839 And unless you realize that you're operating from 564 00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:52,339 this 565 00:19:52,957 --> 00:19:55,772 risk aversion or fear based 566 00:19:56,564 --> 00:19:58,793 You're gonna under perform because you have to 567 00:19:58,793 --> 00:20:01,898 take risk, particularly around point of view Yeah. 568 00:20:02,536 --> 00:20:04,446 In order to break through the noise, 569 00:20:05,179 --> 00:20:05,658 So I'm... 570 00:20:07,576 --> 00:20:09,993 It it it seems consistent with 571 00:20:10,531 --> 00:20:11,890 the b of Ps. 572 00:20:12,304 --> 00:20:14,544 As we've talked about. Right? It's just the 573 00:20:14,544 --> 00:20:16,544 nature of these firms to be risk burst. 574 00:20:17,345 --> 00:20:19,764 And a point of view that comes through 575 00:20:20,638 --> 00:20:23,654 you know, clearly and strongly is a risk? 576 00:20:23,892 --> 00:20:24,050 Yeah. 577 00:20:25,003 --> 00:20:26,590 I think you put that really pointed. 578 00:20:28,192 --> 00:20:30,494 And it'll roots back to culture, you know, 579 00:20:30,811 --> 00:20:32,161 and we're gonna talk more about that later. 580 00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:36,627 You're listening to rattle and pedal. Diver thoughts 581 00:20:36,627 --> 00:20:39,820 on growing your professional services firm. Your hosts 582 00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:42,535 are Jason Male, principal or rattle back, the 583 00:20:42,535 --> 00:20:46,222 marketing agency for professional services firm, and Jeff 584 00:20:46,301 --> 00:20:49,196 Mack mckay. Former Cmo, and founder of strategy 585 00:20:49,255 --> 00:20:50,771 consultancy, prudent pedal. 586 00:20:51,410 --> 00:20:53,859 If you find this podcast helpful, please help 587 00:20:53,899 --> 00:20:55,889 us by telling a friend and rating us 588 00:20:55,889 --> 00:20:56,605 on itunes. 589 00:20:57,242 --> 00:20:59,629 Thank you. Now back to Jason and Jim. 590 00:21:01,062 --> 00:21:02,972 Alright. So what else made the the the... 591 00:21:03,370 --> 00:21:04,981 Us the the near misses. I'm gonna call 592 00:21:04,981 --> 00:21:06,578 them near misses from now on. 593 00:21:09,451 --> 00:21:11,926 Well related to the number 1? 594 00:21:12,738 --> 00:21:14,193 The point of view 595 00:21:14,568 --> 00:21:17,749 is the thought leadership framework. So. Right? We 596 00:21:17,749 --> 00:21:18,249 actually 597 00:21:18,624 --> 00:21:20,317 gave people the tools 598 00:21:21,344 --> 00:21:23,582 in order to think about this within their 599 00:21:23,582 --> 00:21:24,142 own firms. 600 00:21:26,539 --> 00:21:28,537 I I would have thought those might be 601 00:21:28,537 --> 00:21:30,615 a little stronger performing as well. 602 00:21:32,386 --> 00:21:35,101 Maybe they were too much how to. Yeah. 603 00:21:36,139 --> 00:21:38,076 And most of our listeners are more 604 00:21:38,454 --> 00:21:40,231 on what what's the strategy? 605 00:21:40,945 --> 00:21:41,184 Yeah. 606 00:21:43,105 --> 00:21:44,785 But I I would thought those would have 607 00:21:44,785 --> 00:21:45,285 performed 608 00:21:46,065 --> 00:21:48,065 better as well. Yeah. There's a whole cluster 609 00:21:48,065 --> 00:21:50,317 of episodes around some of the research that 610 00:21:50,317 --> 00:21:52,300 we've done at Ra back on thought leadership 611 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:53,649 and some of the frameworks that have come 612 00:21:53,649 --> 00:21:55,474 out of that research that that never really 613 00:21:55,474 --> 00:21:57,275 performed that well. And I also wonder eric 614 00:21:57,473 --> 00:21:59,781 on that, sometimes as marketers, do we title 615 00:21:59,781 --> 00:22:01,849 them well? Because sometimes the titles are it's 616 00:22:01,849 --> 00:22:03,679 like, you know, 12 words. It's like just 617 00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:04,077 too much. 618 00:22:04,809 --> 00:22:06,730 So we, you know, just a very simple 619 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:09,210 concept of, or are we articulating what the 620 00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:10,349 episodes it's really about 621 00:22:11,369 --> 00:22:13,289 well enough for for someone to really grasp 622 00:22:13,289 --> 00:22:13,450 it. 623 00:22:14,421 --> 00:22:16,093 But, yeah, to your point. It's... It feels 624 00:22:16,093 --> 00:22:16,593 like 625 00:22:17,606 --> 00:22:19,597 it feels like once we get into some 626 00:22:19,597 --> 00:22:21,690 of the what what actually has to happen 627 00:22:21,826 --> 00:22:24,473 for... A thought leadership program or an intellectual 628 00:22:24,473 --> 00:22:27,126 capital strategy to to be realized 629 00:22:27,982 --> 00:22:29,897 that there's maybe less interest in that level 630 00:22:29,897 --> 00:22:32,543 of detail. And maybe that's something that you 631 00:22:32,543 --> 00:22:34,689 know, is just a function of who's listening 632 00:22:34,689 --> 00:22:36,437 or maybe it's a function of, you know, 633 00:22:37,232 --> 00:22:38,106 that that... 634 00:22:38,981 --> 00:22:40,014 I don't know. I don't know It's a 635 00:22:40,014 --> 00:22:41,206 function of. I I lost my train a 636 00:22:41,206 --> 00:22:41,286 lot. 637 00:22:42,653 --> 00:22:43,153 So 638 00:22:43,926 --> 00:22:46,393 over 200 episodes, we have evolved. Yes. Right? 639 00:22:46,553 --> 00:22:49,592 We've experimented. We've done all kinds of of 640 00:22:49,592 --> 00:22:52,243 of different things with series with gas and 641 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:53,814 and and what have you. 642 00:22:54,850 --> 00:22:56,761 1 of the things that we did in 643 00:22:56,761 --> 00:22:59,268 order to address that phenomenon 644 00:23:00,201 --> 00:23:02,668 is to keep it simple and tight, and 645 00:23:02,668 --> 00:23:04,203 we we did the series 646 00:23:04,578 --> 00:23:07,460 on in 5 steps. Yes. Right. We picked 647 00:23:07,460 --> 00:23:09,771 that kind of functional or strategic area and 648 00:23:09,771 --> 00:23:12,639 said, Alright. Here's how you do this in 649 00:23:12,639 --> 00:23:15,269 5 steps. You, our our models might have 650 00:23:15,269 --> 00:23:16,279 been 10 or 20 651 00:23:17,114 --> 00:23:18,941 you know, live a see through up. We 652 00:23:18,941 --> 00:23:19,497 we made it. 653 00:23:20,609 --> 00:23:22,674 Right? We we made it, you know, a 654 00:23:22,674 --> 00:23:25,295 little tighter for prime time, in 30 minute 655 00:23:25,295 --> 00:23:25,534 slot. 656 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:28,489 Those weren't as popular as I thought they 657 00:23:28,489 --> 00:23:29,681 would have. The they're cut in the center 658 00:23:29,681 --> 00:23:31,032 of the... Some of those were. Some of 659 00:23:31,032 --> 00:23:32,145 them were said of the bell the bell 660 00:23:32,145 --> 00:23:34,306 curve, like you said. Yeah. So Alright. Well, 661 00:23:34,385 --> 00:23:36,054 there's... What what else What what else is 662 00:23:36,054 --> 00:23:37,882 in the near misses? There's there's 1 more 663 00:23:37,882 --> 00:23:39,471 cluster that's sort of in the near misses 664 00:23:39,471 --> 00:23:41,695 that that we were both a little surprised 665 00:23:41,695 --> 00:23:41,775 by. 666 00:23:42,904 --> 00:23:43,144 Yeah. 667 00:23:44,183 --> 00:23:47,460 And this may be a factor of of 668 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:47,779 time, 669 00:23:48,339 --> 00:23:50,816 but the recent series that we finished on 670 00:23:50,896 --> 00:23:51,396 Ai. 671 00:23:52,669 --> 00:23:55,380 Was not as popular as we thought it 672 00:23:55,380 --> 00:23:57,852 would have been. We had... I thought some 673 00:23:57,852 --> 00:23:58,830 compelling thinkers, 674 00:23:59,446 --> 00:24:00,722 you know, known well, 675 00:24:01,534 --> 00:24:03,789 you know, Michelle Swan from To sarah, 676 00:24:05,682 --> 00:24:06,740 you know, kind of 677 00:24:07,357 --> 00:24:10,069 out there on the cutting edge of of 678 00:24:10,069 --> 00:24:12,099 how this is being a applied 679 00:24:12,715 --> 00:24:14,091 in professional services. 680 00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:17,417 And I see so many people trying to 681 00:24:17,417 --> 00:24:18,134 figure this out, 682 00:24:19,823 --> 00:24:21,519 I thought they would have been gobbling these 683 00:24:21,578 --> 00:24:25,007 this up and getting perspectives from from other 684 00:24:25,007 --> 00:24:25,645 firm leaders. 685 00:24:26,284 --> 00:24:28,517 And it may be that way right now 686 00:24:28,517 --> 00:24:31,315 they might just be in survival mode. Right? 687 00:24:31,553 --> 00:24:33,777 We've gotta lock down and get to the 688 00:24:33,777 --> 00:24:35,548 next month of of revenue, 689 00:24:36,954 --> 00:24:38,463 because there's a lot of that going on 690 00:24:38,463 --> 00:24:40,470 too but I would have thought the Ai, 691 00:24:41,985 --> 00:24:43,203 Sirius would have been 692 00:24:43,979 --> 00:24:45,175 really, really popular. 693 00:24:45,574 --> 00:24:47,169 Yeah. I was little... I I was we 694 00:24:47,169 --> 00:24:48,778 were both a lot surprised by that. I 695 00:24:48,778 --> 00:24:48,938 think, 696 00:24:50,214 --> 00:24:51,809 it's not to say it was unpopular. Some 697 00:24:51,809 --> 00:24:53,724 of it is... I should also tell listeners 698 00:24:53,724 --> 00:24:55,079 the way we did this is to look 699 00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:57,871 at just, you know, listens on per episode 700 00:24:57,871 --> 00:25:00,432 and and, you know, things that are more 701 00:25:00,432 --> 00:25:03,373 recent are obviously disadvantaged. Right? You know, something 702 00:25:03,373 --> 00:25:05,599 that was published in 20 19 or 20 703 00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:05,837 20, 704 00:25:06,568 --> 00:25:08,717 logically had more time to build an audience 705 00:25:08,717 --> 00:25:10,389 than something that's maybe 3 months old. So 706 00:25:10,389 --> 00:25:11,821 we try to kinda factor that out. 707 00:25:12,617 --> 00:25:13,811 But just only so much that you can 708 00:25:13,811 --> 00:25:15,323 do in this context. So I think some 709 00:25:15,323 --> 00:25:16,932 of it's that, think some of it is 710 00:25:16,932 --> 00:25:19,566 that they're, you know, despite all the noise 711 00:25:19,566 --> 00:25:21,163 and all the top talk about it. I 712 00:25:21,163 --> 00:25:22,839 actually think the percentage of firms that are 713 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:23,818 actually meaningfully 714 00:25:24,928 --> 00:25:27,948 doing anything with Ai is is much smaller 715 00:25:27,948 --> 00:25:30,332 than than the market would lead you to 716 00:25:30,332 --> 00:25:32,796 believe. I saw some data just yesterday that's 717 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,125 not published yet. That that would lead... It 718 00:25:35,125 --> 00:25:37,285 would say it's a minority of organizations that 719 00:25:37,285 --> 00:25:38,025 are really 720 00:25:38,565 --> 00:25:40,644 meaningfully doing anything more than just playing around 721 00:25:40,644 --> 00:25:42,415 on the edges And so I think that 722 00:25:42,415 --> 00:25:44,330 some of it's that. There's just other priorities. 723 00:25:44,569 --> 00:25:46,324 You know, it's like, well, we'll get to 724 00:25:46,324 --> 00:25:47,759 that later. Maybe it's kind of where the 725 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,014 heads where people's heads are on it. So 726 00:25:51,843 --> 00:25:54,157 Okay. You you suggested this? I think it's 727 00:25:54,157 --> 00:25:55,434 a good 1. You said, know, what what 728 00:25:55,434 --> 00:25:57,031 are some episodes that we did? We wish 729 00:25:57,031 --> 00:25:58,787 we hadn't done looking back. Like, yeah, I 730 00:25:58,787 --> 00:26:00,237 wish we didn't do that like why did 731 00:26:00,237 --> 00:26:01,590 we why do we do that? That wasn't 732 00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:03,501 such a good idea. What what else what 733 00:26:03,501 --> 00:26:05,014 else... What's in that bucket for you? 734 00:26:06,288 --> 00:26:07,934 I'm making you go first? I'm like 735 00:26:08,690 --> 00:26:10,361 Yeah. You've done that quite a bit today. 736 00:26:10,758 --> 00:26:12,111 I've I've I've seen... 737 00:26:15,149 --> 00:26:17,244 The the 1 for me that I was 738 00:26:17,382 --> 00:26:17,882 really 739 00:26:19,296 --> 00:26:20,253 excited about, 740 00:26:21,849 --> 00:26:23,306 but also had 741 00:26:23,843 --> 00:26:25,633 reservations about doing 742 00:26:26,564 --> 00:26:29,028 was the 3 part series we did on 743 00:26:29,188 --> 00:26:30,960 Es g branding 744 00:26:31,891 --> 00:26:34,219 and the risk and a rewards 745 00:26:34,688 --> 00:26:35,188 associated 746 00:26:35,724 --> 00:26:37,817 with that. Because I've I felt like 747 00:26:38,910 --> 00:26:41,560 probably contrary to a lot of thinkers 748 00:26:42,016 --> 00:26:43,313 in this industry 749 00:26:44,021 --> 00:26:44,521 that 750 00:26:44,894 --> 00:26:47,776 had more risk associated with it than it 751 00:26:48,546 --> 00:26:50,928 didn't. And that's why I wanted to to 752 00:26:50,928 --> 00:26:51,380 bro 753 00:26:51,737 --> 00:26:52,451 that subject. 754 00:26:53,403 --> 00:26:54,038 And to me, 755 00:26:55,467 --> 00:26:58,007 it seems self evident that there was risk 756 00:26:58,007 --> 00:27:00,113 associated with that. Given the political 757 00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:01,628 environment swirling 758 00:27:02,005 --> 00:27:02,564 around us. 759 00:27:04,318 --> 00:27:06,950 But I think conventional wisdom was, no. That 760 00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:08,227 everybody else is doing it, we should be 761 00:27:08,227 --> 00:27:11,028 doing it. And I I don't know. I'd 762 00:27:11,028 --> 00:27:13,573 III didn't think we needed 1 on on 763 00:27:13,732 --> 00:27:14,232 Es 764 00:27:14,846 --> 00:27:15,084 g, 765 00:27:16,134 --> 00:27:17,811 I guess, I'm kinda glad we did it 766 00:27:17,811 --> 00:27:19,349 formulated my own thinking 767 00:27:19,886 --> 00:27:21,803 around it. Yeah. I'm on the flip on 768 00:27:21,803 --> 00:27:23,240 that. Actually, I was really glad we did 769 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,236 it Hindsight. And actually, if I... Yeah, I'm 770 00:27:25,236 --> 00:27:26,842 gonna, you know, give you a big compliment 771 00:27:26,842 --> 00:27:28,192 here. I I think I think we we 772 00:27:28,192 --> 00:27:30,099 did that series in 20 21. 773 00:27:30,973 --> 00:27:32,959 And it was your idea. I said I 774 00:27:32,959 --> 00:27:34,803 think we need to do something about, about 775 00:27:34,803 --> 00:27:35,702 this Es 776 00:27:36,879 --> 00:27:37,278 you know, 777 00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:40,311 issue, you know, and talk about it. And 778 00:27:40,471 --> 00:27:41,588 I was reluctant. I was like, I don't 779 00:27:41,588 --> 00:27:43,839 know. I... It doesn't... This doesn't relief seen 780 00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:45,677 that important to me. But I think you 781 00:27:45,677 --> 00:27:46,875 were really out in front of it. I 782 00:27:46,875 --> 00:27:48,554 mean, if you look back, like, the time 783 00:27:48,554 --> 00:27:51,131 in which when we did that was definitely 784 00:27:52,084 --> 00:27:53,539 in advance of 785 00:27:54,551 --> 00:27:56,700 some of what played out over the next 786 00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,929 couple years that put a lot of companies 787 00:27:58,929 --> 00:28:00,935 not necessarily professional... Services room, but a lot 788 00:28:00,935 --> 00:28:03,166 of companies in the spotlight in ways they 789 00:28:03,166 --> 00:28:05,396 didn't wanna be. And then they were stuck 790 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:07,388 with trying to figure out their values and 791 00:28:07,388 --> 00:28:09,141 figure out their purpose and figure out how 792 00:28:09,141 --> 00:28:11,150 it all for fit together and the in 793 00:28:11,150 --> 00:28:13,622 a super uncomfortable situation with a spotlight on 794 00:28:13,622 --> 00:28:13,782 them. 795 00:28:14,978 --> 00:28:16,813 And so I thought I think in hindsight 796 00:28:16,813 --> 00:28:19,500 it, you know, it was a really really 797 00:28:19,619 --> 00:28:22,002 thoughtful series to do and you got got 798 00:28:22,002 --> 00:28:23,750 us out in front of the issue. 799 00:28:24,385 --> 00:28:26,450 And so I I do think it's worth 800 00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:29,406 a realism for firms thoughtful especially if if 801 00:28:29,406 --> 00:28:29,906 you're 802 00:28:30,758 --> 00:28:32,507 thinking about purpose and values and that kind 803 00:28:32,507 --> 00:28:34,335 of stuff in your organization, not that purpose 804 00:28:34,335 --> 00:28:36,164 and values has to be an Es g 805 00:28:36,164 --> 00:28:37,516 thing. Is it's not. And that's a huge 806 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:38,247 mess. Understanding. 807 00:28:38,964 --> 00:28:39,441 In fact, 808 00:28:40,397 --> 00:28:42,786 our guest, Dave Pod Ny from Jump Associates 809 00:28:42,786 --> 00:28:44,559 has a podcast and he did a great 810 00:28:44,776 --> 00:28:45,652 discussion about purpose. 811 00:28:46,304 --> 00:28:48,365 And not misunderstanding from people. So if you... 812 00:28:48,524 --> 00:28:51,220 If if listeners want to to really understand 813 00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:52,568 that top topic I in depth, I would 814 00:28:52,568 --> 00:28:54,967 definitely suggest checking out that that podcast because 815 00:28:54,967 --> 00:28:56,243 they did a really nice job on that. 816 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,955 So You we'll put a link to that. 817 00:28:59,194 --> 00:29:00,310 We'll put a link to that. Did a... 818 00:29:00,470 --> 00:29:01,427 It's a great show. You did do a 819 00:29:01,427 --> 00:29:03,580 good job explaining purpose and how purpose is 820 00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:05,747 not political and not... It's not... You know, 821 00:29:05,826 --> 00:29:07,419 that... It it's not... You can be a 822 00:29:07,419 --> 00:29:09,411 purpose driven organization around any type of purpose, 823 00:29:10,048 --> 00:29:11,482 and that was kinda like the essence of 824 00:29:11,482 --> 00:29:12,836 the of the talk, which is not where 825 00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:14,678 we went. You know, for me, but I 826 00:29:14,757 --> 00:29:16,265 I wanted to book that out. I wanna 827 00:29:16,265 --> 00:29:18,487 close close this out because we also did 828 00:29:18,487 --> 00:29:19,994 a series on behind the headlines. 829 00:29:21,997 --> 00:29:24,224 And I really enjoyed those series, 830 00:29:25,576 --> 00:29:27,619 because we we kind of, you know, took 831 00:29:27,738 --> 00:29:30,617 the big news stories related to professional services 832 00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:33,709 or things that professional services can learn 833 00:29:34,318 --> 00:29:34,874 from others. 834 00:29:36,077 --> 00:29:38,138 And 1 of the initial stories that we 835 00:29:38,138 --> 00:29:40,674 looked at was the Bud light phenomenon in 836 00:29:40,674 --> 00:29:42,576 the Boycott associated with that, 837 00:29:43,389 --> 00:29:45,786 But if you if you come forward to 838 00:29:45,786 --> 00:29:46,265 today, 839 00:29:47,304 --> 00:29:48,443 there was another 840 00:29:48,902 --> 00:29:50,121 prominent company, 841 00:29:51,953 --> 00:29:55,409 that had to respond to a potential boycott 842 00:29:56,827 --> 00:29:58,445 and did the exact 843 00:29:58,840 --> 00:29:59,900 opposite thing 844 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600 that Bud liked did, and that was the 845 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:03,880 tractor supply company. 846 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,460 And for firms 847 00:30:07,173 --> 00:30:07,673 to 848 00:30:08,368 --> 00:30:10,200 j those 2 approaches. 849 00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:12,293 There's a lot of learning 850 00:30:12,987 --> 00:30:13,306 there. 851 00:30:14,261 --> 00:30:15,558 And 1 of the things 852 00:30:16,109 --> 00:30:19,320 that was very clear from the tractor supply 853 00:30:19,379 --> 00:30:22,888 response is what you just alluded to. They 854 00:30:22,888 --> 00:30:26,333 knew who their clients or customers were they 855 00:30:26,333 --> 00:30:29,205 knew what their purpose was. They they they 856 00:30:29,205 --> 00:30:31,359 got clear about the investments they were gonna 857 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:31,678 make, 858 00:30:33,209 --> 00:30:35,867 and they did it quickly and unequivocally, 859 00:30:36,965 --> 00:30:39,042 and, you know, that's what we said. You 860 00:30:39,042 --> 00:30:40,901 have to know who you are 861 00:30:41,454 --> 00:30:44,411 and make those choices. You can be on 862 00:30:44,411 --> 00:30:46,728 either end of the continuum, but you gotta 863 00:30:46,728 --> 00:30:48,566 be who you are. You can't waffle in 864 00:30:48,566 --> 00:30:51,140 the middle. Yep. In that tractor supply, I 865 00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:53,940 think is it will probably be in the 866 00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:54,440 textbook 867 00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:56,759 right next to the bud light 868 00:30:57,233 --> 00:30:59,544 in business schools for, you know, the first 869 00:30:59,544 --> 00:31:01,695 foreseeable fee. Well. And and you you don't 870 00:31:01,695 --> 00:31:03,607 wanna be wrestling with these things in the 871 00:31:03,607 --> 00:31:05,319 spotlight too. Right? Like, if 872 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:07,779 you wanna figure this stuff out before you're 873 00:31:07,779 --> 00:31:09,940 in this situation because then it's really, really 874 00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:11,940 hard and you're in a very uncomfortable situation. 875 00:31:12,179 --> 00:31:12,679 So 876 00:31:13,550 --> 00:31:14,664 I think that's kind of the essence. 877 00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:17,450 Alright. So I'm gonna a I'm gonna suggest 878 00:31:17,450 --> 00:31:18,961 we... You know, in interest of time. 879 00:31:19,678 --> 00:31:22,078 Let's just... Each of us to share... You've 880 00:31:22,078 --> 00:31:24,383 can maybe 1 or 2 big things that 881 00:31:24,383 --> 00:31:25,201 we've learned 882 00:31:25,654 --> 00:31:27,562 over these 200 episodes that we... 883 00:31:28,214 --> 00:31:30,770 Hope listeners maybe learn as well. I'll make 884 00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:32,368 you go first again. Once you go first 885 00:31:32,368 --> 00:31:32,528 again. 886 00:31:36,846 --> 00:31:37,561 I tell you. 887 00:31:40,023 --> 00:31:41,611 I'm over here this floor. Place 10 quarter... 888 00:31:41,929 --> 00:31:43,120 This it's a hard task. 889 00:31:43,934 --> 00:31:45,634 It's is a very hard task 890 00:31:46,494 --> 00:31:47,474 because there's 891 00:31:47,775 --> 00:31:48,595 so much 892 00:31:49,535 --> 00:31:50,674 that I have 893 00:31:51,147 --> 00:31:51,781 I have learned. 894 00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:54,819 But I'll jump off talking 895 00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:58,625 about Matt Dixon in the work that 896 00:31:59,014 --> 00:32:01,671 he and his colleagues are doing 897 00:32:02,529 --> 00:32:03,029 around 898 00:32:03,408 --> 00:32:03,648 research. 899 00:32:05,086 --> 00:32:05,586 I 900 00:32:06,378 --> 00:32:08,954 love man. I love his thinking, 901 00:32:09,971 --> 00:32:13,483 and what I love about it is it's 902 00:32:13,483 --> 00:32:14,601 constantly evolving. 903 00:32:15,812 --> 00:32:18,202 People that, you know, have listened to the 904 00:32:18,202 --> 00:32:20,752 200 episodes, know. I'm a big challenger or 905 00:32:20,752 --> 00:32:22,106 sale guy. Right? 906 00:32:22,838 --> 00:32:25,463 Always have been... I wish I had written 907 00:32:25,463 --> 00:32:26,997 that book because 908 00:32:27,372 --> 00:32:29,759 it's where I was before the the book 909 00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:32,664 came out. He he eat like my 910 00:32:33,042 --> 00:32:33,862 professional services, 911 00:32:34,401 --> 00:32:36,398 sales and marketing soul soul mate. 912 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:38,336 But 913 00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:41,600 he added d jolt effect. 914 00:32:42,237 --> 00:32:43,374 Right, which was 915 00:32:43,751 --> 00:32:44,967 excellent because 916 00:32:45,344 --> 00:32:46,299 he covered this, 917 00:32:47,733 --> 00:32:48,233 why 918 00:32:49,894 --> 00:32:52,830 clients don't buy. Right? In often and it's 919 00:32:52,830 --> 00:32:55,687 because it's in a non decision. I've seen 920 00:32:55,687 --> 00:32:57,769 that over my entire career and he... And 921 00:32:57,769 --> 00:32:59,470 he brings the data and subs 922 00:33:00,170 --> 00:33:00,670 it 923 00:33:01,289 --> 00:33:01,789 and 924 00:33:02,170 --> 00:33:04,410 and gives an approach for overcoming it. 925 00:33:05,144 --> 00:33:08,101 And I'm just, like, those are golden nuggets. 926 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:10,658 And then he comes out and says, oh, 927 00:33:10,818 --> 00:33:13,455 by the way, in this last research, the 928 00:33:13,455 --> 00:33:14,255 challenger sale, 929 00:33:15,305 --> 00:33:16,044 might be 930 00:33:16,737 --> 00:33:18,192 kinda wrong or, 931 00:33:18,567 --> 00:33:20,476 you know, not as relevant. 932 00:33:20,874 --> 00:33:22,703 So he's willing to go back and kind 933 00:33:22,703 --> 00:33:23,203 of 934 00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:27,514 dis about if you will, an original concept 935 00:33:27,809 --> 00:33:29,105 and to keep it evolving 936 00:33:29,798 --> 00:33:30,298 and 937 00:33:31,488 --> 00:33:33,027 he had the data to subs. 938 00:33:33,725 --> 00:33:35,962 And I love that about what they do. 939 00:33:36,361 --> 00:33:38,688 Yeah. I mean, what I'll try to articulate 940 00:33:38,688 --> 00:33:40,439 something about that that I didn't do very 941 00:33:40,439 --> 00:33:42,986 well earlier was the challenger sale came out 942 00:33:42,986 --> 00:33:44,578 or at least I first became aware of 943 00:33:44,578 --> 00:33:47,458 it around the mid 2000, so 7006 944 00:33:47,458 --> 00:33:48,651 2007 somewhere in there. 945 00:33:49,446 --> 00:33:50,718 And I feel like it was sort of 946 00:33:50,718 --> 00:33:51,536 the D facto 947 00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:55,824 sales philosophy of the time, 6 So it 948 00:33:55,824 --> 00:33:57,978 it it sort of built the the the 949 00:33:57,978 --> 00:34:00,532 the the mindset and methodologies for how to 950 00:34:00,532 --> 00:34:01,750 approach b b selling 951 00:34:02,288 --> 00:34:03,086 in that window. 952 00:34:04,215 --> 00:34:06,519 But the markets changed in the last 20 953 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:08,346 years. And I think that's the beauty of 954 00:34:08,346 --> 00:34:10,172 what they've done with the Rain maker G, 955 00:34:10,252 --> 00:34:11,841 you know, project, which ultimately became. 956 00:34:12,893 --> 00:34:14,569 The act activate business development system. 957 00:34:15,367 --> 00:34:16,027 And so 958 00:34:16,405 --> 00:34:19,119 is that they've evolved to what's working now? 959 00:34:19,278 --> 00:34:21,628 What's working in 20 24 960 00:34:21,683 --> 00:34:22,183 and 961 00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:24,541 recognizing that the market's changed, and then you 962 00:34:24,541 --> 00:34:26,366 have to adapt, you know, so you can't 963 00:34:26,366 --> 00:34:28,271 be using a playbook from 20 years ago. 964 00:34:29,084 --> 00:34:30,922 So I think that's the beauty of that 965 00:34:30,922 --> 00:34:33,240 work. For me, my my biggest learning is 966 00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:34,998 this the importance of culture, you know, like, 967 00:34:35,078 --> 00:34:37,396 you've talked about this always and from the 968 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:39,403 very beginning, And, you know, if I think 969 00:34:39,403 --> 00:34:40,995 back to when we first got into this 970 00:34:40,995 --> 00:34:41,711 5 years ago, 971 00:34:42,507 --> 00:34:44,576 episode 1, I would describe myself as a 972 00:34:44,576 --> 00:34:47,058 strategy and tactics guy. You, I always looked 973 00:34:47,058 --> 00:34:48,809 at marketing on the in the lens of, 974 00:34:48,889 --> 00:34:50,639 like, what are the levers that we wanna 975 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:52,151 pull to get the growth that you want, 976 00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:54,158 and what are the things we need to 977 00:34:54,158 --> 00:34:55,914 do to to make those investments work. 978 00:34:56,632 --> 00:34:58,150 And I always kinda felt like, well, 979 00:34:59,187 --> 00:34:59,427 you know, 980 00:35:00,145 --> 00:35:02,460 we're we're an external advisor. It's not my 981 00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:04,790 problem how you deal with the culture. And 982 00:35:04,949 --> 00:35:06,625 I think I've just come around to this 983 00:35:06,625 --> 00:35:08,859 this just this recognition that that's that that 984 00:35:08,859 --> 00:35:11,265 that culture is kind of everything, how that 985 00:35:11,265 --> 00:35:13,171 nothing will ever happen if you haven't built 986 00:35:13,171 --> 00:35:15,156 a culture, it's going to do what's necessary 987 00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:17,141 for it to happen. So I can build 988 00:35:17,141 --> 00:35:18,650 any strategy I want. I can put any... 989 00:35:18,824 --> 00:35:20,176 Tactics at won against it. But if there's 990 00:35:20,176 --> 00:35:21,926 nobody that wants to support that, it's never 991 00:35:21,926 --> 00:35:22,983 gonna get anywhere 992 00:35:23,358 --> 00:35:25,290 in a professional services firm. So 993 00:35:25,665 --> 00:35:26,899 tactics I have 994 00:35:27,358 --> 00:35:28,956 I have a couple quotes that I've made 995 00:35:28,956 --> 00:35:30,155 me a laugh. Just in this past week, 996 00:35:30,235 --> 00:35:31,433 a friend of mine who's a partner in 997 00:35:31,433 --> 00:35:33,192 a law firm. I was talking to him. 998 00:35:33,271 --> 00:35:34,470 And he's like, he's like, yeah, He's like 999 00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:36,788 I'm up up and, you know, wherever wherever 1000 00:35:36,788 --> 00:35:38,532 they are. Is, like, rev our annual partners 1001 00:35:38,532 --> 00:35:39,166 meeting, you know, 1002 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,434 and knife fight. 1003 00:35:41,623 --> 00:35:43,941 That's what Dull that come which really is 1004 00:35:43,941 --> 00:35:46,167 him to say exactly that. That cultures everything 1005 00:35:46,167 --> 00:35:47,995 that it's it's always a disagreement over who... 1006 00:35:48,313 --> 00:35:49,983 Of who's doing what or who's holding up 1007 00:35:49,983 --> 00:35:51,016 their end of the bargain and that kind 1008 00:35:51,016 --> 00:35:51,414 of thing. 1009 00:35:53,105 --> 00:35:54,545 And my other quote I wanted to share 1010 00:35:54,545 --> 00:35:55,984 as it relates to culture of this is 1011 00:35:55,984 --> 00:35:56,304 for, 1012 00:35:57,184 --> 00:35:59,184 you know, for listeners that don't know this, 1013 00:35:59,344 --> 00:36:00,864 which, no know why they would know this. 1014 00:36:01,277 --> 00:36:03,347 I studied services marketing when I was in 1015 00:36:03,347 --> 00:36:05,336 business school over 20 years ago. So almost 1016 00:36:05,336 --> 00:36:07,564 25 years ago, I I took a class 1017 00:36:07,564 --> 00:36:09,235 on this. That's where I started in this 1018 00:36:09,235 --> 00:36:09,712 journey. Right? 1019 00:36:10,762 --> 00:36:12,595 And the the faculty member that ran that 1020 00:36:12,595 --> 00:36:13,573 class is now 1021 00:36:14,427 --> 00:36:16,679 the president of Penn state University. 1022 00:36:17,629 --> 00:36:17,948 And, 1023 00:36:18,507 --> 00:36:19,645 I'll never forget 1024 00:36:20,023 --> 00:36:22,017 the last day of class, she kinda had 1025 00:36:22,017 --> 00:36:24,251 2 quotes. And 1 of her quotes was 1026 00:36:24,251 --> 00:36:26,333 basically, like you have a dollar... Only a 1027 00:36:26,333 --> 00:36:28,556 dollar to spend on marketing, spend it internally. 1028 00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:31,175 And that was her number 1 thing she 1029 00:36:31,175 --> 00:36:33,255 always said. She's like, you know, if always 1030 00:36:33,255 --> 00:36:34,843 spend internally first. When you think about in 1031 00:36:34,843 --> 00:36:35,502 a services 1032 00:36:35,876 --> 00:36:38,735 organization, that advice is really valuable. Because if 1033 00:36:38,735 --> 00:36:40,720 you can't move the internal folks to do 1034 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:41,594 what you need them to do, 1035 00:36:42,724 --> 00:36:45,121 nothing else is gonna matter. And so, you 1036 00:36:45,121 --> 00:36:45,361 know, 1037 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,078 maybe it took me way too long to 1038 00:36:48,078 --> 00:36:49,836 really internalize that and figure it out, But 1039 00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:51,595 I think that's probably my biggest learning. 1040 00:36:52,249 --> 00:36:53,148 Over the last, 1041 00:36:53,927 --> 00:36:55,525 you know, 5 years with you on this. 1042 00:36:55,844 --> 00:36:56,005 So... 1043 00:36:56,803 --> 00:36:58,721 That's a fatal flaw. I see in firm 1044 00:36:58,721 --> 00:36:59,840 after firm after firm. 1045 00:37:00,494 --> 00:37:02,806 They don't realize that the B a Ps 1046 00:37:02,806 --> 00:37:03,365 is real, 1047 00:37:04,083 --> 00:37:06,157 and they have to address it. 1048 00:37:07,512 --> 00:37:09,347 Knife fight, annual knife fight. 1049 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,492 That's positive enough. Right? That's that's that's that 1050 00:37:13,492 --> 00:37:15,238 version of the Bs p in that firm. 1051 00:37:15,556 --> 00:37:16,667 Right? And the color hilarious is. 1052 00:37:17,698 --> 00:37:18,357 Your full 1053 00:37:18,730 --> 00:37:18,784 that's 1054 00:37:19,617 --> 00:37:21,439 Alright. So then, you know, 1055 00:37:22,231 --> 00:37:24,212 anything else you wanna share with listeners before 1056 00:37:24,212 --> 00:37:25,796 we wrap because I don't wanna, you know, 1057 00:37:26,129 --> 00:37:27,885 I don't wanna... I don't wanna end early, 1058 00:37:28,044 --> 00:37:30,140 but I also don't wanna end late. So 1059 00:37:30,198 --> 00:37:31,954 what else did we not cover that we 1060 00:37:31,954 --> 00:37:33,885 really should share with them about. Kind of 1061 00:37:33,885 --> 00:37:36,045 this journey of 200 episodes and then coming 1062 00:37:36,045 --> 00:37:37,164 along this this ride with us. 1063 00:37:38,364 --> 00:37:39,724 1 of the things that I've really come 1064 00:37:39,724 --> 00:37:41,025 to appreciate about 1065 00:37:41,405 --> 00:37:42,285 doing a podcast. 1066 00:37:43,898 --> 00:37:44,398 Is 1067 00:37:47,175 --> 00:37:47,675 the 1068 00:37:48,054 --> 00:37:48,554 opportunities 1069 00:37:49,012 --> 00:37:51,090 to to learn as you said, 1070 00:37:51,983 --> 00:37:53,042 but to build 1071 00:37:53,420 --> 00:37:53,660 relationship. 1072 00:37:55,177 --> 00:37:55,916 We have 1073 00:37:56,294 --> 00:37:59,269 reached out to very prominent 1074 00:37:59,966 --> 00:38:00,365 guest. 1075 00:38:01,336 --> 00:38:03,799 And invite them them on the show. And 1076 00:38:04,038 --> 00:38:07,534 I've really been happy and impressed, surprised, 1077 00:38:09,144 --> 00:38:11,545 by some of the people that have entered 1078 00:38:11,545 --> 00:38:12,765 into a conversation 1079 00:38:13,065 --> 00:38:13,545 with us, 1080 00:38:15,144 --> 00:38:17,660 books that I've I've I've read 1081 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,739 you know, Harvard business review articles 1082 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:24,440 or or or what have you, 1083 00:38:25,172 --> 00:38:26,467 of these thought leaders 1084 00:38:29,229 --> 00:38:30,661 that are really approachable. 1085 00:38:31,298 --> 00:38:31,457 Right? 1086 00:38:32,188 --> 00:38:34,173 Call them up and invite them, come on 1087 00:38:34,173 --> 00:38:34,491 a show. 1088 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,906 I think firms could learn something from that. 1089 00:38:38,382 --> 00:38:40,288 Going back to the conversation we are having 1090 00:38:40,288 --> 00:38:41,242 about fear, 1091 00:38:41,654 --> 00:38:42,532 and a point of view, 1092 00:38:43,249 --> 00:38:44,605 firms need to take more risk, 1093 00:38:45,483 --> 00:38:47,259 engage more people, ask, 1094 00:38:48,035 --> 00:38:50,109 you know, for more referrals, 1095 00:38:50,587 --> 00:38:51,305 more favors. 1096 00:38:52,036 --> 00:38:54,733 More connections, whatever the case may be, 1097 00:38:55,447 --> 00:38:56,185 and that's 1098 00:38:56,717 --> 00:38:58,542 that's been really powerful for me. 1099 00:38:59,353 --> 00:39:01,982 To to have this platform and and and 1100 00:39:01,982 --> 00:39:04,235 reach out to people and and build these 1101 00:39:04,532 --> 00:39:05,887 relationships. It's been a lot of fun. 1102 00:39:06,776 --> 00:39:08,204 I think that's a wonderful point. And I 1103 00:39:08,204 --> 00:39:10,585 think, you know, for listeners or organizations that 1104 00:39:10,585 --> 00:39:12,251 are thinking about doing a podcast. That's 1 1105 00:39:12,251 --> 00:39:13,838 of the most valuable pieces of it Is 1106 00:39:13,838 --> 00:39:14,472 it helps you... 1107 00:39:15,202 --> 00:39:17,422 Like you said, have a platform for conversations 1108 00:39:17,422 --> 00:39:19,326 and a platform to learn a platform to 1109 00:39:19,326 --> 00:39:20,913 make connections that you can make in different 1110 00:39:20,913 --> 00:39:22,578 ways than you can otherwise. 1111 00:39:24,101 --> 00:39:24,339 So... 1112 00:39:25,609 --> 00:39:27,196 Alright. Let's take it to wrap. I have 1113 00:39:27,196 --> 00:39:28,625 1 final thing to share. 1114 00:39:29,498 --> 00:39:29,736 And, 1115 00:39:30,944 --> 00:39:33,741 it's score keeping, and and I'm losing. I'm 1116 00:39:33,741 --> 00:39:35,898 losing. So for listeners, this is a direct 1117 00:39:35,898 --> 00:39:36,218 ask. 1118 00:39:36,777 --> 00:39:39,070 So when we launch this episode this program 1119 00:39:39,268 --> 00:39:40,457 back in 2018. 1120 00:39:40,615 --> 00:39:42,360 Like, you said, well, Jason, we need to 1121 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,366 have a couple episodes that just tell us 1122 00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:46,775 tell people listeners who are these guys. I'm 1123 00:39:46,893 --> 00:39:48,323 Who who who's is Jeff Mack mckay? Who's 1124 00:39:48,402 --> 00:39:50,070 Jason We're looking in case they're curious. 1125 00:39:50,786 --> 00:39:51,286 And 1126 00:39:51,976 --> 00:39:53,883 more people have listened to the about Jeff 1127 00:39:53,962 --> 00:39:54,359 Mack mckay, 1128 00:39:55,487 --> 00:39:58,114 episode then the about Jason Episode. So listeners. 1129 00:39:59,070 --> 00:40:00,662 Beat me. Don't let and beat me. I 1130 00:40:00,662 --> 00:40:02,095 don't wanna lose. Don't gonna lose to a 1131 00:40:02,255 --> 00:40:04,499 Michigan man. That's like that's like, throw solid 1132 00:40:04,499 --> 00:40:06,810 and open win. And so go in... All 1133 00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:08,244 you gotta do is just click on listen 1134 00:40:08,244 --> 00:40:09,518 to that episode. You don't have to listen 1135 00:40:09,518 --> 00:40:10,634 the whole thing. Listen to a minute and 1136 00:40:10,634 --> 00:40:11,909 a half then turn it off and now 1137 00:40:11,909 --> 00:40:13,757 what I'll start winning. I I just make 1138 00:40:13,757 --> 00:40:15,115 sure I'm winning. I'm gonna win. 1139 00:40:15,753 --> 00:40:15,913 So... 1140 00:40:16,951 --> 00:40:19,186 Anyway what what do I have 2 more 1141 00:40:19,186 --> 00:40:21,900 listens You got 20... Over 20 more listens 1142 00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:23,909 on that. Over 20 more listen. This close. 1143 00:40:24,467 --> 00:40:25,903 So it takes... It only takes a couple 1144 00:40:25,903 --> 00:40:28,136 of listeners years. Only a couple. Just... You 1145 00:40:28,136 --> 00:40:29,412 just... And you can put me over the 1146 00:40:29,412 --> 00:40:30,927 top, and then I can go for for 1147 00:40:30,927 --> 00:40:34,691 200 episodes. Yes. And I would recommend if 1148 00:40:34,691 --> 00:40:35,887 you haven't listened to it, 1149 00:40:36,685 --> 00:40:39,317 listen to the 1 about Jason because it 1150 00:40:39,317 --> 00:40:40,614 is a a great 1151 00:40:41,151 --> 00:40:42,204 interview it, 1152 00:40:43,003 --> 00:40:44,862 provides wonderful insights 1153 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,617 into a good friend of mine. I loved 1154 00:40:49,076 --> 00:40:50,515 doing that interview. 1155 00:40:51,088 --> 00:40:52,705 I think I kinda it caught you 1156 00:40:53,641 --> 00:40:55,178 off guard a couple of times 1157 00:40:55,874 --> 00:40:57,868 in it. I don't even remember what... And 1158 00:40:57,868 --> 00:40:59,942 that was a a lot of fun. Almost. 1159 00:41:00,181 --> 00:41:02,910 We ran. We may have to revisit because 1160 00:41:02,910 --> 00:41:04,187 I this that if we need to do 1161 00:41:04,187 --> 00:41:05,943 that again, just because, know, I don't even 1162 00:41:05,943 --> 00:41:08,099 know what we said. But, anyway, well, it's 1163 00:41:08,099 --> 00:41:09,856 been a great pleasure. Thanks for 1164 00:41:10,429 --> 00:41:12,733 you know, for for doing this with me 1165 00:41:12,733 --> 00:41:14,084 for the last 202 1166 00:41:14,084 --> 00:41:14,584 hundred 1167 00:41:14,958 --> 00:41:17,422 episodes and thanks to all our listeners who've 1168 00:41:17,422 --> 00:41:19,663 been here to support the show, you and 1169 00:41:19,663 --> 00:41:21,415 all of our great guests who've been on 1170 00:41:21,415 --> 00:41:22,712 to to share their wisdom 1171 00:41:23,088 --> 00:41:25,478 and excited to do 200 more and, you 1172 00:41:25,478 --> 00:41:25,637 know, 1173 00:41:26,433 --> 00:41:26,831 hopefully, 1174 00:41:27,389 --> 00:41:28,265 this was as, 1175 00:41:28,919 --> 00:41:29,978 compelling as 1176 00:41:30,437 --> 00:41:32,674 the Bi you had as a child that 1177 00:41:32,674 --> 00:41:34,352 was draped in Eagles and red white and 1178 00:41:34,352 --> 00:41:36,590 blue. Hopefully, this was as fun for listeners. 1179 00:41:36,923 --> 00:41:37,423 So 1180 00:41:38,197 --> 00:41:41,380 anyway, more eagles. Yes. More eagles. You never 1181 00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:44,005 have too many eagles. Right? Let's your chicken 1182 00:41:44,005 --> 00:41:44,219 farmer 1183 00:41:44,979 --> 00:41:45,139 Alright. 1184 00:41:47,057 --> 00:41:48,495 Good to talk. Talk to you next week. 1185 00:41:48,735 --> 00:41:49,135 You're buddy. 1186 00:41:50,333 --> 00:41:53,151 Thank you for listening to rattling pedal. Diver 1187 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:56,253 thoughts on marketing and growing professional services firms, 1188 00:41:56,730 --> 00:41:59,536 find content related to this episode at rad 1189 00:41:59,594 --> 00:42:02,392 t dot com in Rad and pedal is 1190 00:42:02,392 --> 00:42:04,699 also available on itunes and stitch pitcher.