You're listening to Rattle and Pedal,
diversion thoughts on marketing and growing professional services
firms. Your hosts are Jason Malik and Jeff
Mack mckay.
Well, Jeff, do you remember the bi centennial
by any chance?
I do.
Do you really really That is a vivid
in memory for me. Well, tell me about
it. Tell tell me about your memories of
the bi centennial. So what what what what
do you remember? Oh my gosh. So that
would have been 19 76.
Right. I hope you know that. Yeah. 19
19 76.
I would have been in grade school,
and it was a huge.
Celebration in in my hometown. I grew up
in a in a small town, and
I I just remember getting caught up in
the pan
a bit all.
I mean, all the red white and blue
and eagles and
you know,
founding fathers and all that stuff. I I
thought it was so cool. I mean, like
it was yesterday.
That's super cool.
I I'm I'm too young to have any
memories of it. I I... Which is why
I asked because I knew, you know, maybe
you would have some memories. I knew they'd
be fuzzy at best. But, yeah, I I
have... I... My only memories are, you know,
bi quarters. I used to have a less
of bi quarters. Remember those. The only and
then there was, like a special quarter because
back in the day for listeners who actually,
I've seen a quarter. Maybe they don't see
him anymore. But they used still be 1
eagle on the back of, quarter. Right? There
wasn't all the states.
And they had the special quarter for 19
76 that had, like, a flag or something.
It was a little different
and I used to kinda collect those when
I was a little kick because I thought
they really need. So anyway, we're having a
bi centennial today. That's why I asked. This
is our by centennial.
So hopefully, this will conjure as many
positive warm memories for our listeners as the
American Bi hit does for. For you and
I. So that's our goal.
So American flags. I cannot believe.
Jason, I can't believe we're at 200 episode.
Created?
III
really cannot...
I remember the day you asked me to
to do this podcast.
And if you'd said, hey, we'll get to
200 episodes and we'll do this for years,
and I would upset
Right. Crazy.
We know what's funny about that by the
way.
When we start when we started this, there
was another podcast in this genre, and I
knew the. I knew the producers of that
podcast. And they...
Eventually, at some point in this journey, they
either shut it down or handed it off
to someone new, and I asked him why.
And you said, when we ran out Of
I stuff to talk about.
And I was like, what do... What? Like,
I mean, we...
I think our list is never ending. Right?
There's always stuff. You're like, oh, my gosh
there's so much more we can talk about
it. It's... I I always feel like it's
the inverse problem. It's that, you know, there's
so much to talk about how do we
decide what not to talk about. Much And
then every time I think it's absolutely... Or
listeners will make a request, and then we
suddenly realize what we think is a single
episode is like 9,
because there's so much more to unpack than
we thought.
And they we get some interesting guests and
they they teach us a bunch of stuff.
So
yeah. It's hard to believe. Isn't it? Well,
in any new?
As you say that,
the thought I had
was
even if we did not have
a listening audience.
Right? People that that,
you know, listen to us week after week,
I would still wanna have these conversations on
the regular cadence that we have. Well, the
yes. I mean, the funny thing about it
is that, like, for me,
the number 1 reason I do this is
to learn. I I feel like I I
look back over those 200 episodes and
I've learned so much from you and from
our guests, and it's so it's sort of
like, I always kinda feel like our listeners
are are selfish. I feel like our listeners
are just along for the ride of a
of a journey of just learning and discovery
that we're both on. And,
hopefully, they're learning along the way with us
because
we're There's just so much to learn about
how to run a great firm. You know,
how to market a great firm. How to
grow a great firm. How to be a
great firm. What a great firm? If it
is. Right? Let's there's just so much to
be learned and you never seem to find
the bottom. I never find the bottom of
that well. I'm always kinda surprised by something
new. I'm like, Never thought about that. I
didn't know that. And so for me, that's
the joy of the whole thing, more than
anything. So...
Well, this to me is 1 of the...
Coolest
industries to be in, and I
stumbled
into it.
But what I absolutely
love about this
industry
is
how many
smart,
driven,
collaborative
people
are drawn to this.
And it is so much fun,
to be working with people solving big problems,
and the problems keep evolving,
and the problems
are
important
and impactful to the, you know, to the
to the economy, to the companies and to
the individuals
and it's
it it's just a cool
industry that just never gets...
Boring
as opposed to
creating
a new and improved
toothpaste or something
Yeah. Sku number 346.
I love the industry. Yeah. Well, it's fascinating
because there's just
there's so many different types of firms that
create so many different types of value and
solve so many different types of problems. And
and
and every time you start to think you've
kind of got your head wrap. Around or
something, then you you find something new And
you're like, wow, I I've never thought about
it that way. I I've never seen a
firm operate that way. I've never seen a
firm market that way. Whatever it might be
And and so I I think it's it's
a pleasure. It's honestly a pleasure to work
with great firms it's pleasure to talk with.
With you and other great firms on this
on the show. So...
Alright. So what are we gonna do for
our our by centennial here? So
here's what we've got planned listeners as how
you're gonna spend this time with us today.
So,
we're just going to... We're gonna spend a
little time talking about some of... The most
popular episodes. The things that you you as
listeners listen to the most, and we'll talk
a little bit about why,
and then we'll talk a little bit about
some things that weren't as popular as we
thought they might be sort of to our
surprise and maybe talk about why.
We're gonna talk a little bit about some
of the things we've learned, You know, it's
kind of both as as individuals through this
journey and hope that you've picked up on
them as well and we'll point you back
to episodes where you can kinda dig into
that if you want. So
that's the goal. So you know, let's jump
into this show here.
So most popular, I think this was actually
really interesting because it's... You know,
when we... When we produce the show as
listeners know, We try to be thoughtful about
the topics you wanna cover and frequently, the
topics will be multi episodes. Right? So we'll
we'll go after,
an issue and we'll cover it over 3458
episodes, and we'll have
discussions within the 2 of us we'll have
different people. So it's interesting to see what
did really well and what what maybe didn't
do as well. So, I know, you you
pulled the date on this. You wanna you
wanna start with what was what was some
of the most... What... What some of the
more popular things that we've covered over the
years.
So top 3,
the top 1 did not surprise me
at all.
It was
Charlie Green and cross selling.
I have been following Charlie Green for
decades.
You know, the the trusted adviser
books that he's written.
His impact on this industry has
is un unfavorable. It's been phenomenal. And I'd
loved
that he joined us on this show, and
it was just a great
conversation
around the perennial perennial
issues
that firms face.
His his thinking is
evergreen in is as relevant
today as it was when he wrote his
his first book.
And I thought it was really cool
to
introduce him to a new
generation
of listeners,
because I'm surprised
when I'm working with my clients,
the number of people that haven't read
his stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, we
gotta get it to you.
Because this is really important stuff. So
him shooting to the top
didn't surprise me at all. Well, it's interesting
about something you just said by the way
is that the concept of the trusted adviser
is something that I think every single listener
has heard about or knows about and many
people have have read,
you know,
Charlie thinking on this, but maybe they didn't
know Charlie. Right? So I think that, you
know, in thought leadership, great ideas, you know,
compelling points of view, often will super seed
the authors, and they'll even super see the
firms. We've talked about this a lot. Right?
Know, concepts like the challenger sale. But most
listeners do not know who authored that and
do not know the firm that those those
individuals worked for at the time they authored
it, probably know the book.
They know the thinking. And it shaped their
worldview on b to b and professional services
selling. So
And then I also... Another thing I wanted
to say about this is I think about
it is that I think that the re...
Another reason that that episode was so powerful
for people I believe.
Is just that there every every
every
practitioner, everybody who's who works in a firm
wants to be a trusted adviser.
But I know that many people really actually
are. And so trying to get underneath that,
understand how to...
Change your daily behave... Habits and behaviors
to get closer to that realization of that
goal, I think is really critical.
So I think it's kinda like, required listening.
If you're gonna listen to this show for
a, you know, if you're gonna give us
your time over you gotta listen to that
episode because it's it's sort of foundational to
everything.
The whole series on selling that we did
is all rooted in that. Right? So
what else is on the list? Yeah. That
was there was a couple there that surprised
us? Yeah. So the second 1...
Surprised me but didn't surprise me, and it
was
Christy data
from the family business consulting
group.
As part of our value creation series
on creating
multi
generational
value.
In what professional services firms can learn from
family businesses.
And and and to me,
I'm I'm the 1 who invited her on,
I had the relationship with her. I got
my started at Anderson
in family business consulting and came out of
a a family business
To me, it seemed really logical
that
professional services firms could learn so much
from somebody, like like Christy
because
I saw so many similarities
between my family's business,
and the pride of ownership of
professional services
that I just felt like there were something
there if they could recon contextualize value creation,
it would be
incredibly useful to
I had no idea it would be that
popular.
Yeah. But
I I think people...
And in real leaders,
sincere leaders
thinking those long term perspectives
and I think that's probably what drew them
to that episode.
Yeah. I think the other the interesting thing
about that. We you when you... We the
the topic of value creation in general that...
Phrase as has been thrown around the last,
probably 4 or 5 years, and I'll lump
in like the exit planning community on there.
Right? A lot of that kinda is seen
as language for
how you build up organization to sell, how
you build an organization to exit. And I
actually think that maybe the reason that that
Christy episode
struck so such a strong cord is that
at most firms. Most firms...
You know, they they wanna put a legacy
as you've pointed out through the years. Their
goal is to to to leave the firm
better for the next generation of leaders than
they than they found it. And that's a
lot of firms.
And so that idea of multi generational value,
I think really resonated for a lot of
firms and a lot of people.
And and and Christy was a great guest.
So... Alright.
What else? What else is it the to
round out to top 3. Round the top
3? Yeah. To give us the last of
the top 3. I'm not surprised by this
1
at all, and it was the rain maker
genome project.
With Matt Dixon and and Rory,
sharing their new insights
from their big research study on professional services
firms.
I think there's
so much value
in that
empirical
studies.
Firms really value that. I think it's a
a great indicator of what firms should be
doing from a thought leadership perspective as well.
But people are looking for that edge.
And if there's research out there that's pointing
to an edge,
that they can take advantage of.
They wanna know it.
So I wasn't surprised by that 1 at
all. Plus, those guys have strong brands
and they've demonstrated
a lot of valuable insights in the past,
they're it's like, hey, if they're showing up,
I wanna hear what they have to say
this time around because they've been... Matt's been
on the show a couple of times. Yeah.
I think too that that research the the
nature of that research in general, it's it's
it's sort of required listening, I think, if
you are
trying to
grow a firm in
this next
5 to 10 years.
Because I feel like that research
is the
the go to market model going forward for
a lot of firms,
for the next era. Right? Like, it's like,
there was a era from
you know, the mid nineties to the
2015
range that was defined by,
certain types of activities,
And this, I think is setting the stage
for what is really next.
So I think that's really maybe why that
that did so well.
And the research is really, really compelling and
it's really well done. I which Also think
is really fit the heart of it all.
But you left 1 off. But I find
interesting is that, you know, we we talked
about the what what was most popular and
you left... You you you left actually the
superstar off the list. Which I thought is
really interesting.
So you remember what the what the, what?
Was it? Which 1? So you actually left
off. The the highest performing episode we ever
did,
which is an episode that you and I
did,
on creating an intellectual capital strategy.
And actually, I found that pretty pretty fascinating
that that was the top performer of everything
we've done of 200 episodes. That... I did
not see that coming.
And some of it is just mainly because
of the phrase intellectual capital? I find as
such a stuffy phrase that I'm like, does
anybody even know what that means? Like
and so like... Does anybody... Is this gonna
resonate with anybody?
Not necessarily the topic, but I I think
it's interesting that
that there is a lot of people in
this industry
that
feel a
a sense that they don't have a good
handle on the issues that they need to
build thought leadership or intellectual capital around. And
if you contrast that with when we just
talked about, the Rain maker genome project,
Matt and Rory and the team at Dc
insights have a lot of clarity about the
issues that they wanna build leadership around and
most firms do not. And that's sort of,
like, a, a very
clear contrast of what is going on there.
So, you know, I I'm pleasantly surprised for
that to be at the top of the
list because obviously, that's the hard soul of
our business so
good to know that... But that's important to
people and that they're struggling with that. And
that... And that also that the thinking that
you and I put together on that, cut
through the noise enough that people. It's found
value in it. So that's that's awesome.
So... Alright. So if that was the... If
that was the greatest hits, then let's talk
about the things that maybe didn't do as
well. I'm not gonna say they're like, the
greatest message because I think that's being way
too extreme. But there things that we thought
might do be more popular than they they
turned out to. So it was a little
bit of a surprise that they really weren't
in the upper echelon line. You wanna lead
us into that again, Sure.
Well, let's let's segue away from number 1
to
1 of the less popular ones that should
have been
popular,
and that is
developing a point of view.
IIII
can't believe that.
It's it's the heart of positioning. It's the
heart of cutting through
all the marketing
noise
is having a
strong,
compelling
differentiated
point of view.
And I would have thought
that
people would have just gobble that up to
say, alright. How do I create that? Because
I want that.
But I don't know. You you you said,
maybe we mis titled that.
If me maybe we did. What, yeah I
think you've heard me said. I I I've
come to the conclusion over our journey on
this is that the point of view is
the lever for everything in the firm. I
mean, for everything,
for the culture for hiring, for research investments,
for marketing priorities, for business development priorities, And
I I actually think that the fact that
the rain remake genome project is at the
top of this list or Charlie Green is
the top of this list makes the case
for that
because
Both those instances, you're talking about firms or
people that have built such compelling point of
use at the point of view, super seed
them as individuals and super proceed their firms.
And so it's driven, you know,
exponential growth for themselves in the industry. Right?
So
III do find an interesting j j position
where it's like,
everyone's interested in hearing how do I figure
out what issues to build...
A thought leadership program or intellectual capital agenda
around.
But when it comes to, how do I
actually make that stuff compelling, then it's not
as much interest. So it's like,
I I think it's... Like you said, I
I think it's really, really surprising.
But maybe maybe we just mis title it.
Maybe we're using the long language. Maybe maybe
we should re title Poe as something else.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it goes... To a a
couple of other episodes that we did
on fear
with inside firms.
That we're kind of in the in the
normal
distribution, right, under the middle of the bell
curve in terms of their popularity
I would think those might be higher
in terms of value
because
fear inhibits.
Growth.
And unless you realize that you're operating from
this
risk aversion or fear based
You're gonna under perform because you have to
take risk, particularly around point of view Yeah.
In order to break through the noise,
So I'm...
It it it seems consistent with
the b of Ps.
As we've talked about. Right? It's just the
nature of these firms to be risk burst.
And a point of view that comes through
you know, clearly and strongly is a risk?
Yeah.
I think you put that really pointed.
And it'll roots back to culture, you know,
and we're gonna talk more about that later.
You're listening to rattle and pedal. Diver thoughts
on growing your professional services firm. Your hosts
are Jason Male, principal or rattle back, the
marketing agency for professional services firm, and Jeff
Mack mckay. Former Cmo, and founder of strategy
consultancy, prudent pedal.
If you find this podcast helpful, please help
us by telling a friend and rating us
on itunes.
Thank you. Now back to Jason and Jim.
Alright. So what else made the the the...
Us the the near misses. I'm gonna call
them near misses from now on.
Well related to the number 1?
The point of view
is the thought leadership framework. So. Right? We
actually
gave people the tools
in order to think about this within their
own firms.
I I would have thought those might be
a little stronger performing as well.
Maybe they were too much how to. Yeah.
And most of our listeners are more
on what what's the strategy?
Yeah.
But I I would thought those would have
performed
better as well. Yeah. There's a whole cluster
of episodes around some of the research that
we've done at Ra back on thought leadership
and some of the frameworks that have come
out of that research that that never really
performed that well. And I also wonder eric
on that, sometimes as marketers, do we title
them well? Because sometimes the titles are it's
like, you know, 12 words. It's like just
too much.
So we, you know, just a very simple
concept of, or are we articulating what the
episodes it's really about
well enough for for someone to really grasp
it.
But, yeah, to your point. It's... It feels
like
it feels like once we get into some
of the what what actually has to happen
for... A thought leadership program or an intellectual
capital strategy to to be realized
that there's maybe less interest in that level
of detail. And maybe that's something that you
know, is just a function of who's listening
or maybe it's a function of, you know,
that that...
I don't know. I don't know It's a
function of. I I lost my train a
lot.
So
over 200 episodes, we have evolved. Yes. Right?
We've experimented. We've done all kinds of of
of different things with series with gas and
and and what have you.
1 of the things that we did in
order to address that phenomenon
is to keep it simple and tight, and
we we did the series
on in 5 steps. Yes. Right. We picked
that kind of functional or strategic area and
said, Alright. Here's how you do this in
5 steps. You, our our models might have
been 10 or 20
you know, live a see through up. We
we made it.
Right? We we made it, you know, a
little tighter for prime time, in 30 minute
slot.
Those weren't as popular as I thought they
would have. The they're cut in the center
of the... Some of those were. Some of
them were said of the bell the bell
curve, like you said. Yeah. So Alright. Well,
there's... What what else What what else is
in the near misses? There's there's 1 more
cluster that's sort of in the near misses
that that we were both a little surprised
by.
Yeah.
And this may be a factor of of
time,
but the recent series that we finished on
Ai.
Was not as popular as we thought it
would have been. We had... I thought some
compelling thinkers,
you know, known well,
you know, Michelle Swan from To sarah,
you know, kind of
out there on the cutting edge of of
how this is being a applied
in professional services.
And I see so many people trying to
figure this out,
I thought they would have been gobbling these
this up and getting perspectives from from other
firm leaders.
And it may be that way right now
they might just be in survival mode. Right?
We've gotta lock down and get to the
next month of of revenue,
because there's a lot of that going on
too but I would have thought the Ai,
Sirius would have been
really, really popular.
Yeah. I was little... I I was we
were both a lot surprised by that. I
think,
it's not to say it was unpopular. Some
of it is... I should also tell listeners
the way we did this is to look
at just, you know, listens on per episode
and and, you know, things that are more
recent are obviously disadvantaged. Right? You know, something
that was published in 20 19 or 20
20,
logically had more time to build an audience
than something that's maybe 3 months old. So
we try to kinda factor that out.
But just only so much that you can
do in this context. So I think some
of it's that, think some of it is
that they're, you know, despite all the noise
and all the top talk about it. I
actually think the percentage of firms that are
actually meaningfully
doing anything with Ai is is much smaller
than than the market would lead you to
believe. I saw some data just yesterday that's
not published yet. That that would lead... It
would say it's a minority of organizations that
are really
meaningfully doing anything more than just playing around
on the edges And so I think that
some of it's that. There's just other priorities.
You know, it's like, well, we'll get to
that later. Maybe it's kind of where the
heads where people's heads are on it. So
Okay. You you suggested this? I think it's
a good 1. You said, know, what what
are some episodes that we did? We wish
we hadn't done looking back. Like, yeah, I
wish we didn't do that like why did
we why do we do that? That wasn't
such a good idea. What what else what
else... What's in that bucket for you?
I'm making you go first? I'm like
Yeah. You've done that quite a bit today.
I've I've I've seen...
The the 1 for me that I was
really
excited about,
but also had
reservations about doing
was the 3 part series we did on
Es g branding
and the risk and a rewards
associated
with that. Because I've I felt like
probably contrary to a lot of thinkers
in this industry
that
had more risk associated with it than it
didn't. And that's why I wanted to to
bro
that subject.
And to me,
it seems self evident that there was risk
associated with that. Given the political
environment swirling
around us.
But I think conventional wisdom was, no. That
everybody else is doing it, we should be
doing it. And I I don't know. I'd
III didn't think we needed 1 on on
Es
g,
I guess, I'm kinda glad we did it
formulated my own thinking
around it. Yeah. I'm on the flip on
that. Actually, I was really glad we did
it Hindsight. And actually, if I... Yeah, I'm
gonna, you know, give you a big compliment
here. I I think I think we we
did that series in 20 21.
And it was your idea. I said I
think we need to do something about, about
this Es
you know,
issue, you know, and talk about it. And
I was reluctant. I was like, I don't
know. I... It doesn't... This doesn't relief seen
that important to me. But I think you
were really out in front of it. I
mean, if you look back, like, the time
in which when we did that was definitely
in advance of
some of what played out over the next
couple years that put a lot of companies
not necessarily professional... Services room, but a lot
of companies in the spotlight in ways they
didn't wanna be. And then they were stuck
with trying to figure out their values and
figure out their purpose and figure out how
it all for fit together and the in
a super uncomfortable situation with a spotlight on
them.
And so I thought I think in hindsight
it, you know, it was a really really
thoughtful series to do and you got got
us out in front of the issue.
And so I I do think it's worth
a realism for firms thoughtful especially if if
you're
thinking about purpose and values and that kind
of stuff in your organization, not that purpose
and values has to be an Es g
thing. Is it's not. And that's a huge
mess. Understanding.
In fact,
our guest, Dave Pod Ny from Jump Associates
has a podcast and he did a great
discussion about purpose.
And not misunderstanding from people. So if you...
If if listeners want to to really understand
that top topic I in depth, I would
definitely suggest checking out that that podcast because
they did a really nice job on that.
So You we'll put a link to that.
We'll put a link to that. Did a...
It's a great show. You did do a
good job explaining purpose and how purpose is
not political and not... It's not... You know,
that... It it's not... You can be a
purpose driven organization around any type of purpose,
and that was kinda like the essence of
the of the talk, which is not where
we went. You know, for me, but I
I wanted to book that out. I wanna
close close this out because we also did
a series on behind the headlines.
And I really enjoyed those series,
because we we kind of, you know, took
the big news stories related to professional services
or things that professional services can learn
from others.
And 1 of the initial stories that we
looked at was the Bud light phenomenon in
the Boycott associated with that,
But if you if you come forward to
today,
there was another
prominent company,
that had to respond to a potential boycott
and did the exact
opposite thing
that Bud liked did, and that was the
tractor supply company.
And for firms
to
j those 2 approaches.
There's a lot of learning
there.
And 1 of the things
that was very clear from the tractor supply
response is what you just alluded to. They
knew who their clients or customers were they
knew what their purpose was. They they they
got clear about the investments they were gonna
make,
and they did it quickly and unequivocally,
and, you know, that's what we said. You
have to know who you are
and make those choices. You can be on
either end of the continuum, but you gotta
be who you are. You can't waffle in
the middle. Yep. In that tractor supply, I
think is it will probably be in the
textbook
right next to the bud light
in business schools for, you know, the first
foreseeable fee. Well. And and you you don't
wanna be wrestling with these things in the
spotlight too. Right? Like, if
you wanna figure this stuff out before you're
in this situation because then it's really, really
hard and you're in a very uncomfortable situation.
So
I think that's kind of the essence.
Alright. So I'm gonna a I'm gonna suggest
we... You know, in interest of time.
Let's just... Each of us to share... You've
can maybe 1 or 2 big things that
we've learned
over these 200 episodes that we...
Hope listeners maybe learn as well. I'll make
you go first again. Once you go first
again.
I tell you.
I'm over here this floor. Place 10 quarter...
This it's a hard task.
It's is a very hard task
because there's
so much
that I have
I have learned.
But I'll jump off talking
about Matt Dixon in the work that
he and his colleagues are doing
around
research.
I
love man. I love his thinking,
and what I love about it is it's
constantly evolving.
People that, you know, have listened to the
200 episodes, know. I'm a big challenger or
sale guy. Right?
Always have been... I wish I had written
that book because
it's where I was before the the book
came out. He he eat like my
professional services,
sales and marketing soul soul mate.
But
he added d jolt effect.
Right, which was
excellent because
he covered this,
why
clients don't buy. Right? In often and it's
because it's in a non decision. I've seen
that over my entire career and he... And
he brings the data and subs
it
and
and gives an approach for overcoming it.
And I'm just, like, those are golden nuggets.
And then he comes out and says, oh,
by the way, in this last research, the
challenger sale,
might be
kinda wrong or,
you know, not as relevant.
So he's willing to go back and kind
of
dis about if you will, an original concept
and to keep it evolving
and
he had the data to subs.
And I love that about what they do.
Yeah. I mean, what I'll try to articulate
something about that that I didn't do very
well earlier was the challenger sale came out
or at least I first became aware of
it around the mid 2000, so 7006
2007 somewhere in there.
And I feel like it was sort of
the D facto
sales philosophy of the time, 6 So it
it it sort of built the the the
the the mindset and methodologies for how to
approach b b selling
in that window.
But the markets changed in the last 20
years. And I think that's the beauty of
what they've done with the Rain maker G,
you know, project, which ultimately became.
The act activate business development system.
And so
is that they've evolved to what's working now?
What's working in 20 24
and
recognizing that the market's changed, and then you
have to adapt, you know, so you can't
be using a playbook from 20 years ago.
So I think that's the beauty of that
work. For me, my my biggest learning is
this the importance of culture, you know, like,
you've talked about this always and from the
very beginning, And, you know, if I think
back to when we first got into this
5 years ago,
episode 1, I would describe myself as a
strategy and tactics guy. You, I always looked
at marketing on the in the lens of,
like, what are the levers that we wanna
pull to get the growth that you want,
and what are the things we need to
do to to make those investments work.
And I always kinda felt like, well,
you know,
we're we're an external advisor. It's not my
problem how you deal with the culture. And
I think I've just come around to this
this just this recognition that that's that that
that culture is kind of everything, how that
nothing will ever happen if you haven't built
a culture, it's going to do what's necessary
for it to happen. So I can build
any strategy I want. I can put any...
Tactics at won against it. But if there's
nobody that wants to support that, it's never
gonna get anywhere
in a professional services firm. So
tactics I have
I have a couple quotes that I've made
me a laugh. Just in this past week,
a friend of mine who's a partner in
a law firm. I was talking to him.
And he's like, he's like, yeah, He's like
I'm up up and, you know, wherever wherever
they are. Is, like, rev our annual partners
meeting, you know,
and knife fight.
That's what Dull that come which really is
him to say exactly that. That cultures everything
that it's it's always a disagreement over who...
Of who's doing what or who's holding up
their end of the bargain and that kind
of thing.
And my other quote I wanted to share
as it relates to culture of this is
for,
you know, for listeners that don't know this,
which, no know why they would know this.
I studied services marketing when I was in
business school over 20 years ago. So almost
25 years ago, I I took a class
on this. That's where I started in this
journey. Right?
And the the faculty member that ran that
class is now
the president of Penn state University.
And,
I'll never forget
the last day of class, she kinda had
2 quotes. And 1 of her quotes was
basically, like you have a dollar... Only a
dollar to spend on marketing, spend it internally.
And that was her number 1 thing she
always said. She's like, you know, if always
spend internally first. When you think about in
a services
organization, that advice is really valuable. Because if
you can't move the internal folks to do
what you need them to do,
nothing else is gonna matter. And so, you
know,
maybe it took me way too long to
really internalize that and figure it out, But
I think that's probably my biggest learning.
Over the last,
you know, 5 years with you on this.
So...
That's a fatal flaw. I see in firm
after firm after firm.
They don't realize that the B a Ps
is real,
and they have to address it.
Knife fight, annual knife fight.
That's positive enough. Right? That's that's that's that
version of the Bs p in that firm.
Right? And the color hilarious is.
Your full
that's
Alright. So then, you know,
anything else you wanna share with listeners before
we wrap because I don't wanna, you know,
I don't wanna... I don't wanna end early,
but I also don't wanna end late. So
what else did we not cover that we
really should share with them about. Kind of
this journey of 200 episodes and then coming
along this this ride with us.
1 of the things that I've really come
to appreciate about
doing a podcast.
Is
the
opportunities
to to learn as you said,
but to build
relationship.
We have
reached out to very prominent
guest.
And invite them them on the show. And
I've really been happy and impressed, surprised,
by some of the people that have entered
into a conversation
with us,
books that I've I've I've read
you know, Harvard business review articles
or or or what have you,
of these thought leaders
that are really approachable.
Right?
Call them up and invite them, come on
a show.
I think firms could learn something from that.
Going back to the conversation we are having
about fear,
and a point of view,
firms need to take more risk,
engage more people, ask,
you know, for more referrals,
more favors.
More connections, whatever the case may be,
and that's
that's been really powerful for me.
To to have this platform and and and
reach out to people and and build these
relationships. It's been a lot of fun.
I think that's a wonderful point. And I
think, you know, for listeners or organizations that
are thinking about doing a podcast. That's 1
of the most valuable pieces of it Is
it helps you...
Like you said, have a platform for conversations
and a platform to learn a platform to
make connections that you can make in different
ways than you can otherwise.
So...
Alright. Let's take it to wrap. I have
1 final thing to share.
And,
it's score keeping, and and I'm losing. I'm
losing. So for listeners, this is a direct
ask.
So when we launch this episode this program
back in 2018.
Like, you said, well, Jason, we need to
have a couple episodes that just tell us
tell people listeners who are these guys. I'm
Who who who's is Jeff Mack mckay? Who's
Jason We're looking in case they're curious.
And
more people have listened to the about Jeff
Mack mckay,
episode then the about Jason Episode. So listeners.
Beat me. Don't let and beat me. I
don't wanna lose. Don't gonna lose to a
Michigan man. That's like that's like, throw solid
and open win. And so go in... All
you gotta do is just click on listen
to that episode. You don't have to listen
the whole thing. Listen to a minute and
a half then turn it off and now
what I'll start winning. I I just make
sure I'm winning. I'm gonna win.
So...
Anyway what what do I have 2 more
listens You got 20... Over 20 more listens
on that. Over 20 more listen. This close.
So it takes... It only takes a couple
of listeners years. Only a couple. Just... You
just... And you can put me over the
top, and then I can go for for
200 episodes. Yes. And I would recommend if
you haven't listened to it,
listen to the 1 about Jason because it
is a a great
interview it,
provides wonderful insights
into a good friend of mine. I loved
doing that interview.
I think I kinda it caught you
off guard a couple of times
in it. I don't even remember what... And
that was a a lot of fun. Almost.
We ran. We may have to revisit because
I this that if we need to do
that again, just because, know, I don't even
know what we said. But, anyway, well, it's
been a great pleasure. Thanks for
you know, for for doing this with me
for the last 202
hundred
episodes and thanks to all our listeners who've
been here to support the show, you and
all of our great guests who've been on
to to share their wisdom
and excited to do 200 more and, you
know,
hopefully,
this was as,
compelling as
the Bi you had as a child that
was draped in Eagles and red white and
blue. Hopefully, this was as fun for listeners.
So
anyway, more eagles. Yes. More eagles. You never
have too many eagles. Right? Let's your chicken
farmer
Alright.
Good to talk. Talk to you next week.
You're buddy.
Thank you for listening to rattling pedal. Diver
thoughts on marketing and growing professional services firms,
find content related to this episode at rad
t dot com in Rad and pedal is
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