WEBVTT 00:00:00.069 --> 00:00:01.310 You're listening to the P.T. 00:00:01.351 --> 00:00:02.052 Pinecast, 00:00:02.152 --> 00:00:04.153 where smart people in healthcare come to 00:00:04.214 --> 00:00:05.155 make noise. 00:00:05.416 --> 00:00:06.836 Here's your host, Jimmy McKay. 00:00:09.534 --> 00:00:10.515 Welcome back to the show. 00:00:10.615 --> 00:00:11.654 I do want to say thanks to our 00:00:11.695 --> 00:00:13.355 friends at Empower EMR. 00:00:13.396 --> 00:00:15.137 If your clinic is stuck in an EMR, 00:00:15.196 --> 00:00:16.797 if it slows you down, that's not okay. 00:00:16.897 --> 00:00:18.939 Empower gives you faster documentation, 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:19.978 cleaner workflows, 00:00:19.998 --> 00:00:21.760 and tools designed specifically for rehab 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:22.001 teams. 00:00:22.300 --> 00:00:23.780 Better notes, faster documentation, 00:00:23.841 --> 00:00:25.062 smoother operations. 00:00:25.542 --> 00:00:28.443 Learn more at empoweremr.com. 00:00:28.984 --> 00:00:30.664 I do also want to thank our friends 00:00:31.065 --> 00:00:31.666 at Sarah Health. 00:00:31.686 --> 00:00:33.106 It goes right along with a great EMR. 00:00:33.146 --> 00:00:34.567 It's a remote care platform helping 00:00:34.627 --> 00:00:35.607 clinics boost revenue 00:00:36.430 --> 00:00:38.171 without having to add complexity. 00:00:38.853 --> 00:00:40.973 Sarah automates daily patient check-ins 00:00:41.314 --> 00:00:42.755 through simple text messages. 00:00:42.875 --> 00:00:43.875 No apps, no logins. 00:00:44.335 --> 00:00:45.936 This is all about that stuff like RTM, 00:00:45.976 --> 00:00:47.037 remote therapeutic monitoring. 00:00:47.338 --> 00:00:50.380 Clinics improve patient follow-through and 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:52.920 meet RTM requirements so you can get paid 00:00:53.402 --> 00:00:56.264 for the care you provide between visits. 00:00:56.743 --> 00:00:59.665 Learn more about that at SarahHealth.com. 00:00:59.686 --> 00:01:01.366 It's S-A-R-A, health.com. 00:01:02.747 --> 00:01:03.668 Now, in healthcare, 00:01:03.709 --> 00:01:06.230 most clinicians spend years learning how 00:01:06.251 --> 00:01:07.111 to treat patients, 00:01:07.152 --> 00:01:09.573 but almost no time learning how to lead 00:01:10.215 --> 00:01:10.594 people. 00:01:11.615 --> 00:01:13.718 Then one day, congratulations, 00:01:13.737 --> 00:01:14.239 you've been promoted. 00:01:14.259 --> 00:01:15.000 Now you're running a team, 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:16.001 managing schedules, 00:01:16.221 --> 00:01:17.841 making operational decisions, 00:01:18.222 --> 00:01:19.323 and sitting in meetings with 00:01:19.343 --> 00:01:21.325 administrators who seem to speak 00:01:21.646 --> 00:01:23.206 completely different languages. 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:25.781 It's a moment many clinicians quietly 00:01:25.822 --> 00:01:26.683 wonder the same thing. 00:01:26.942 --> 00:01:29.405 Do I actually belong here? 00:01:29.724 --> 00:01:31.667 Or when are people going to figure out 00:01:31.966 --> 00:01:33.207 that I don't belong here? 00:01:33.548 --> 00:01:34.828 I've thought that. 00:01:34.868 --> 00:01:36.230 Today's guest has spent more than two 00:01:36.269 --> 00:01:37.691 decades helping healthcare professionals 00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:38.912 find their voice, 00:01:38.951 --> 00:01:40.712 both literally as a speech language 00:01:40.754 --> 00:01:43.155 pathologist and figuratively as someone 00:01:43.174 --> 00:01:46.097 who coaches leaders to step into their 00:01:46.257 --> 00:01:46.957 expertise. 00:01:47.058 --> 00:01:48.338 Let's welcome back to the show, 00:01:48.739 --> 00:01:49.780 Katie Holterman. 00:01:49.819 --> 00:01:50.320 Katie, welcome back. 00:01:50.340 --> 00:01:51.340 Thank you. 00:01:52.125 --> 00:01:53.626 It's been a while. 00:01:53.727 --> 00:01:54.528 Let's kick this off. 00:01:54.608 --> 00:01:56.709 Imposter syndrome was something I'd never 00:01:56.750 --> 00:01:58.852 heard of until I did. 00:01:59.472 --> 00:02:01.596 And it sort of put words to this 00:02:01.635 --> 00:02:03.137 feeling that I thought only I had, 00:02:03.296 --> 00:02:04.778 which I'm sure is somewhere in the 00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:06.620 definition of imposter syndrome. 00:02:07.081 --> 00:02:09.304 Why does imposter syndrome show up so 00:02:09.563 --> 00:02:12.266 often in healthcare leadership, 00:02:12.326 --> 00:02:13.408 as I mentioned in the intro? 00:02:14.085 --> 00:02:18.308 Yeah, we are not trained in leadership. 00:02:18.348 --> 00:02:20.389 We don't have the training involved in 00:02:20.411 --> 00:02:20.591 this. 00:02:20.631 --> 00:02:23.312 We don't have the prep. 00:02:23.453 --> 00:02:25.715 So many times it's, you know, hey, 00:02:26.014 --> 00:02:27.256 you've done a good job. 00:02:27.295 --> 00:02:28.818 Would you like to lead this team? 00:02:29.938 --> 00:02:30.158 You know, 00:02:30.579 --> 00:02:31.961 you've done a good job in XYZ. 00:02:32.100 --> 00:02:33.122 I think you could lead this. 00:02:33.201 --> 00:02:34.522 I think you could be on this committee. 00:02:34.543 --> 00:02:36.163 And it doesn't necessarily even have to be 00:02:36.664 --> 00:02:38.045 a title of, you know, 00:02:38.105 --> 00:02:39.987 you are the director of rehab or you 00:02:40.048 --> 00:02:41.688 are an executive here. 00:02:42.150 --> 00:02:42.931 It could be, hey, 00:02:42.971 --> 00:02:44.731 I want you to lead this committee or 00:02:44.852 --> 00:02:49.316 I want you to, you know, mentor somebody. 00:02:50.056 --> 00:02:50.317 And 00:02:51.997 --> 00:02:53.278 And as clinicians, 00:02:53.438 --> 00:02:55.460 we don't have training in this. 00:02:55.500 --> 00:02:58.741 We have training in clinical skills and 00:02:59.141 --> 00:03:01.242 that kind of where it stops. 00:03:01.423 --> 00:03:03.264 So you get placed in this and you 00:03:03.283 --> 00:03:03.644 kind of go, 00:03:03.843 --> 00:03:06.004 what the heck am I actually doing here? 00:03:06.346 --> 00:03:07.165 And do I belong? 00:03:08.586 --> 00:03:10.627 So someone might be spotting the raw 00:03:10.668 --> 00:03:12.889 materials in what would make a good 00:03:12.968 --> 00:03:13.468 leader. 00:03:14.289 --> 00:03:16.211 But if you're not shown how to apply 00:03:16.251 --> 00:03:16.591 those. 00:03:17.986 --> 00:03:19.568 you can now you'll now feel like a 00:03:19.608 --> 00:03:20.828 fish out of water and also you might 00:03:20.867 --> 00:03:22.729 not do a great job it's similar it's 00:03:22.769 --> 00:03:24.330 very clear when you say well i've spotted 00:03:24.370 --> 00:03:25.909 somebody who's a great college student 00:03:25.949 --> 00:03:27.850 they'll make a great clinician we still 00:03:27.890 --> 00:03:30.472 put them through school to get them there 00:03:30.491 --> 00:03:32.052 it's very obvious there and there's 00:03:32.112 --> 00:03:33.492 actually something called when i found 00:03:33.513 --> 00:03:35.133 this out i was able to spot more 00:03:35.153 --> 00:03:36.835 than a few people i know of the 00:03:36.895 --> 00:03:38.395 peter principle have you heard of the 00:03:38.435 --> 00:03:41.257 peter principle yeah rise to the level of 00:03:41.296 --> 00:03:43.116 your incompetence essentially you might be 00:03:43.137 --> 00:03:44.578 a great clinician now you're the degree 00:03:45.018 --> 00:03:46.480 you're you've been promoted to director 00:03:46.540 --> 00:03:47.562 you might be great at that then you 00:03:47.582 --> 00:03:50.007 get promoted to regional director and 00:03:50.127 --> 00:03:52.151 somewhere between that first uh sorry the 00:03:52.191 --> 00:03:53.973 first promotion the second promotion you 00:03:54.014 --> 00:03:56.639 actually don't have those skills or you 00:03:56.658 --> 00:03:57.639 just weren't taught them 00:03:59.079 --> 00:04:00.879 So you're bad at that regional job, 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:03.162 that higher job, but you're never demoted. 00:04:03.682 --> 00:04:05.644 So now you're in a job you don't 00:04:05.663 --> 00:04:07.444 have the skill set for, the training for, 00:04:07.544 --> 00:04:07.686 right? 00:04:07.705 --> 00:04:08.746 We don't know which one it is or 00:04:08.765 --> 00:04:10.907 both, but you don't get demoted. 00:04:11.168 --> 00:04:12.468 So now going forward, 00:04:12.908 --> 00:04:14.450 you're sort of stuck there. 00:04:15.050 --> 00:04:18.173 So we can spot this because we want 00:04:18.192 --> 00:04:19.254 to make sure we can do stuff with 00:04:19.293 --> 00:04:19.394 it. 00:04:19.935 --> 00:04:22.817 What are the common signs that someone 00:04:22.877 --> 00:04:24.218 might be dealing with 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:25.540 with imposter syndrome? 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:26.721 What are the things that we can either 00:04:26.761 --> 00:04:29.062 look for in ourselves or others to help 00:04:29.862 --> 00:04:30.343 spot these? 00:04:30.362 --> 00:04:31.023 What are the signs? 00:04:31.043 --> 00:04:31.903 What are the symptoms? 00:04:32.124 --> 00:04:32.564 Yeah. 00:04:32.584 --> 00:04:34.545 Well, the first thing is everybody has it. 00:04:34.764 --> 00:04:35.706 Everybody's dealing with it. 00:04:35.946 --> 00:04:38.706 So the sign is look to your left 00:04:38.726 --> 00:04:39.588 and look to your right. 00:04:40.267 --> 00:04:41.028 And there it is. 00:04:43.165 --> 00:04:44.987 In yourself, there's actually, 00:04:45.007 --> 00:04:50.374 so Valerie Young is somebody who I think 00:04:50.454 --> 00:04:51.475 everybody should follow. 00:04:52.016 --> 00:04:53.978 She's a great leader in this field. 00:04:54.057 --> 00:04:57.180 And she's identified five or talks about 00:04:57.261 --> 00:04:59.663 five profiles of imposter syndrome. 00:04:59.744 --> 00:05:00.985 Oh, I like this. 00:05:01.084 --> 00:05:04.767 And that is where I think everybody can 00:05:04.887 --> 00:05:07.649 identify with at least one profile. 00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:10.211 If you're an overachiever like me, 00:05:10.612 --> 00:05:12.533 you identify with all five profiles 00:05:12.552 --> 00:05:14.053 depending on the day or the week or 00:05:14.093 --> 00:05:15.814 the position that you're in. 00:05:17.115 --> 00:05:19.358 But the five profiles are the soloist, 00:05:19.757 --> 00:05:20.619 right? 00:05:21.298 --> 00:05:22.120 I don't need anybody else. 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:23.940 I should be able to do this alone. 00:05:24.261 --> 00:05:25.502 And if I can't do it alone, 00:05:25.942 --> 00:05:26.583 then I'm not good. 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:29.940 The natural genius, 00:05:30.021 --> 00:05:31.461 which is if I struggle, 00:05:31.983 --> 00:05:33.324 I must not be good at this. 00:05:35.266 --> 00:05:35.906 The expert, 00:05:35.966 --> 00:05:37.206 which is I need to be an expert 00:05:37.247 --> 00:05:38.208 in everything. 00:05:38.829 --> 00:05:40.170 And if I'm not an expert in everything 00:05:40.269 --> 00:05:41.370 or I need to be an expert in 00:05:41.411 --> 00:05:41.690 this, 00:05:41.771 --> 00:05:44.593 I can't not know everything about it. 00:05:46.555 --> 00:05:47.375 The superhuman, 00:05:48.036 --> 00:05:50.579 which is I must do it all. 00:05:51.259 --> 00:05:52.261 And if I can't do it all, 00:05:52.321 --> 00:05:53.422 then I'm doing something wrong. 00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:57.122 And then the perfectionist, which, 00:05:57.223 --> 00:05:58.725 you know, if I can't do it perfectly, 00:05:58.785 --> 00:06:01.947 then it's failure all before it even 00:06:02.048 --> 00:06:02.848 began, right? 00:06:03.250 --> 00:06:09.055 So identifying where you fit or where 00:06:09.076 --> 00:06:13.661 you're feeling in the profile at the given 00:06:13.721 --> 00:06:14.062 time. 00:06:15.379 --> 00:06:17.860 helps to at least name it, 00:06:17.880 --> 00:06:19.081 which is a strategy, right? 00:06:19.122 --> 00:06:20.603 So name it, say it, 00:06:21.644 --> 00:06:22.964 this is what it is. 00:06:24.165 --> 00:06:26.028 And recognize that it's universal. 00:06:26.127 --> 00:06:27.069 Everybody's feeling it. 00:06:27.228 --> 00:06:29.430 Everybody's walking around feeling like an 00:06:29.451 --> 00:06:30.091 imposter. 00:06:30.512 --> 00:06:31.752 It's a universal issue. 00:06:33.353 --> 00:06:34.675 And so sometimes when you just say it 00:06:34.735 --> 00:06:35.576 out loud, it helps. 00:06:36.656 --> 00:06:36.916 Now, 00:06:37.257 --> 00:06:39.278 as you mentioned sort of those five types, 00:06:40.711 --> 00:06:43.052 A couple of them felt pretty close, 00:06:43.091 --> 00:06:45.372 but I'm guessing you might. 00:06:47.153 --> 00:06:48.213 I feel like I do some of those 00:06:48.252 --> 00:06:49.913 sometimes and not all the time. 00:06:50.312 --> 00:06:50.653 Absolutely. 00:06:50.713 --> 00:06:51.194 Is that common? 00:06:51.293 --> 00:06:52.494 Absolutely. 00:06:52.553 --> 00:06:52.994 Okay, got it. 00:06:53.194 --> 00:06:54.774 I'm not always this or that. 00:06:55.293 --> 00:06:55.495 Nope. 00:06:55.634 --> 00:06:56.795 And it's going to be situational. 00:06:56.834 --> 00:06:57.975 And here's the thing with imposter 00:06:58.014 --> 00:06:58.375 syndrome. 00:06:58.894 --> 00:07:00.896 Imposter syndrome in and of itself is 00:07:00.935 --> 00:07:01.516 situational. 00:07:02.338 --> 00:07:04.059 And this is a common misconception. 00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:05.079 So I have a lot of people who 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:05.699 will say to me, 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:08.500 I'm a relatively confident person. 00:07:09.422 --> 00:07:12.363 So why do I feel like an imposter 00:07:12.543 --> 00:07:14.785 in this situation? 00:07:14.865 --> 00:07:17.646 And that's key for imposter syndrome in 00:07:17.665 --> 00:07:18.286 and of itself. 00:07:18.666 --> 00:07:20.408 Imposter syndrome is not a lack of 00:07:20.468 --> 00:07:21.247 confidence. 00:07:22.028 --> 00:07:24.810 It's a lack of confidence in a specific 00:07:24.870 --> 00:07:25.651 situation. 00:07:25.670 --> 00:07:26.810 Got it. 00:07:26.891 --> 00:07:29.252 So you may feel like 00:07:30.430 --> 00:07:35.353 a superhuman profile when you are managing 00:07:35.394 --> 00:07:36.375 your radio show, right? 00:07:36.595 --> 00:07:37.735 Managing your podcast. 00:07:37.755 --> 00:07:38.197 Right. 00:07:38.297 --> 00:07:39.978 Because you need to do it all great 00:07:40.098 --> 00:07:40.858 all the time. 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.161 But when you are 00:07:46.737 --> 00:07:47.478 XYZ, you know, 00:07:48.017 --> 00:07:50.598 in a different aspect of your world, 00:07:51.499 --> 00:07:53.259 you may feel like, well, I can do, 00:07:53.478 --> 00:07:53.678 you know, 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:54.678 I don't have to do it all. 00:07:54.740 --> 00:07:55.839 I can take a step back. 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:58.500 That's not the profile you're feeling in 00:07:58.600 --> 00:07:59.579 that moment. 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:01.161 You know, 00:08:01.221 --> 00:08:03.740 I feel like a superhuman when I'm trying 00:08:03.841 --> 00:08:05.401 to manage work-life balance, 00:08:05.420 --> 00:08:07.062 when I'm trying to manage, you know, 00:08:07.081 --> 00:08:10.101 am I able to give enough at work 00:08:10.122 --> 00:08:11.242 and able to give enough at home? 00:08:11.302 --> 00:08:12.182 And am I able to, you know, 00:08:12.202 --> 00:08:13.142 I think a lot of, you know, 00:08:14.108 --> 00:08:15.629 Mothers feel like this at times. 00:08:15.668 --> 00:08:15.988 Right. 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:19.771 Family, you know, whatever. 00:08:19.791 --> 00:08:20.673 But at work, 00:08:20.773 --> 00:08:22.173 I don't necessarily feel like I have to 00:08:22.213 --> 00:08:22.673 take it on. 00:08:22.754 --> 00:08:25.096 That's not my imposter syndrome profile at 00:08:25.156 --> 00:08:25.596 work. 00:08:26.637 --> 00:08:27.637 The expert is, though, 00:08:27.937 --> 00:08:30.158 I need to know it exactly right. 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:32.961 And if I don't know it exactly right, 00:08:33.182 --> 00:08:34.062 then I'm an imposter. 00:08:34.121 --> 00:08:36.043 So it depends on the situation. 00:08:36.403 --> 00:08:40.066 But the confidence is, again, 00:08:40.125 --> 00:08:43.509 situation and situationally specific. 00:08:43.884 --> 00:08:45.066 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:45.125 --> 00:08:46.966 How does imposter syndrome affect 00:08:47.107 --> 00:08:48.008 decisions though? 00:08:48.048 --> 00:08:50.971 Like leadership decisions inside of a 00:08:51.010 --> 00:08:51.370 clinic? 00:08:51.410 --> 00:08:53.852 Essentially knowing about this is one 00:08:53.893 --> 00:08:54.393 thing, right? 00:08:54.432 --> 00:08:55.714 Understanding the signs and symptoms, 00:08:55.995 --> 00:08:57.176 but then what does it do? 00:08:57.355 --> 00:08:59.837 How does it now affect decision-making? 00:08:59.878 --> 00:09:01.458 Because if I, 00:09:01.479 --> 00:09:03.260 I'm able to speak confidently about this, 00:09:03.321 --> 00:09:04.400 not from an expert perspective, 00:09:04.421 --> 00:09:05.621 but this is me, right? 00:09:06.043 --> 00:09:07.283 Several times during a day. 00:09:08.404 --> 00:09:10.466 It does sort of affect decisions. 00:09:10.505 --> 00:09:12.347 So lay that out for me. 00:09:12.727 --> 00:09:13.308 Absolutely. 00:09:13.948 --> 00:09:16.331 So depending on the decision that you're 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:16.692 making, 00:09:16.711 --> 00:09:19.653 you're either going to to overcompensate, 00:09:21.395 --> 00:09:24.398 you're going to not want to come off 00:09:24.658 --> 00:09:27.480 as being needing help. 00:09:27.760 --> 00:09:29.442 So you're going to put all of your 00:09:29.501 --> 00:09:30.943 effort in and you're going to make that 00:09:30.984 --> 00:09:32.985 decision on your own when in fact, 00:09:33.836 --> 00:09:35.398 probably could have been a better decision 00:09:35.437 --> 00:09:37.298 had you collaborated with somebody else. 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:40.000 But because you feel like an imposter, 00:09:40.160 --> 00:09:41.381 if you ask for help. 00:09:41.402 --> 00:09:44.043 That's it right there. 00:09:44.143 --> 00:09:44.984 Exactly. 00:09:46.144 --> 00:09:49.486 Or you become paralyzed with the decision 00:09:49.506 --> 00:09:50.187 making, right? 00:09:50.206 --> 00:09:52.469 So decision paralysis where you feel like, 00:09:52.548 --> 00:09:54.129 okay, I need to make it perfect. 00:09:54.870 --> 00:09:57.551 before I go and take that next step 00:09:57.571 --> 00:09:59.250 and the perfectionist profile comes in. 00:09:59.711 --> 00:10:00.791 So if it's not perfect, 00:10:01.051 --> 00:10:02.390 then I don't make the decision. 00:10:02.471 --> 00:10:03.772 I don't lead the team in the way 00:10:03.812 --> 00:10:04.631 it needs to be. 00:10:04.951 --> 00:10:07.892 So every profile has a different aspect of 00:10:08.592 --> 00:10:11.373 paralysis and decision making or 00:10:11.852 --> 00:10:14.033 leadership, 00:10:14.094 --> 00:10:18.374 halting leadership potential because 00:10:18.815 --> 00:10:20.815 you're limiting yourself. 00:10:21.259 --> 00:10:21.500 Yeah. 00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:24.562 So you said imposter syndrome gets really, 00:10:24.621 --> 00:10:27.123 really dangerous when it goes unspoken, 00:10:27.583 --> 00:10:27.803 right? 00:10:27.823 --> 00:10:29.644 Because I've heard this before. 00:10:29.684 --> 00:10:30.905 And the first couple of times I heard 00:10:30.926 --> 00:10:31.806 it, I was like, I didn't understand it. 00:10:32.086 --> 00:10:34.248 No decision is still a decision. 00:10:34.307 --> 00:10:35.928 When I've decided not to do anything, 00:10:36.469 --> 00:10:37.450 and somebody gave it to me in a 00:10:37.490 --> 00:10:38.250 great example, 00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:40.451 which is if you're crossing a busy street, 00:10:41.272 --> 00:10:42.432 and all of a sudden you recognize a 00:10:42.472 --> 00:10:43.452 car's coming, well, 00:10:43.472 --> 00:10:44.533 I could run to the other side of 00:10:44.553 --> 00:10:44.793 the street, 00:10:44.813 --> 00:10:45.653 or I could run back to where I 00:10:45.693 --> 00:10:46.134 came from. 00:10:47.148 --> 00:10:49.090 Or do I stand still because that's no 00:10:49.129 --> 00:10:49.610 decision? 00:10:49.770 --> 00:10:50.932 And sometimes standing still in the middle 00:10:50.952 --> 00:10:52.553 of the street still gets me hit by 00:10:52.573 --> 00:10:53.254 the car, right? 00:10:53.274 --> 00:10:55.957 So no decision, indecision is a decision. 00:10:56.458 --> 00:10:57.639 So you've said it becomes dangerous when 00:10:57.679 --> 00:10:58.561 it goes unspoken. 00:10:58.640 --> 00:10:59.461 I feel like as soon as you start 00:10:59.501 --> 00:11:00.043 talking about it, 00:11:00.082 --> 00:11:01.884 you find you lead your way to an 00:11:01.965 --> 00:11:02.164 answer. 00:11:02.184 --> 00:11:04.327 So why is it so dangerous then? 00:11:05.596 --> 00:11:08.499 I think it's dangerous because if you're 00:11:08.798 --> 00:11:10.961 if you are trying to internalize all of 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:12.201 this and you are again, 00:11:12.422 --> 00:11:14.663 it kind of goes back to the fact 00:11:14.703 --> 00:11:18.086 that this is a universal issue that nobody 00:11:18.187 --> 00:11:20.568 talks about or doesn't talk about enough. 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:23.591 So then you're feeling like, well, 00:11:23.951 --> 00:11:27.434 I'm all alone in this and I'm not 00:11:28.015 --> 00:11:30.398 asking for help or I'm I'm trying to 00:11:30.437 --> 00:11:32.599 do it all or I'm 00:11:33.778 --> 00:11:37.490 not forgiving of myself in this situation, 00:11:39.426 --> 00:11:42.168 And so it leads to being run over 00:11:42.188 --> 00:11:43.028 in the middle of the street. 00:11:43.048 --> 00:11:45.772 That's essentially what that end result 00:11:45.792 --> 00:11:50.216 will be, rather than saying, you know, 00:11:50.355 --> 00:11:53.077 it's okay if I make a mistake. 00:11:53.118 --> 00:11:56.120 It's okay if I don't have the perfect 00:11:56.280 --> 00:11:59.423 answer for this situation. 00:12:01.566 --> 00:12:02.746 One of the things that I always like 00:12:02.787 --> 00:12:05.349 to tell people is borrow confidence. 00:12:06.106 --> 00:12:08.668 from the work that you're doing and don't 00:12:08.788 --> 00:12:09.707 switch it around. 00:12:09.788 --> 00:12:13.489 So don't wait to be confident to do 00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:14.889 the thing. 00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:16.809 Do the thing. 00:12:18.389 --> 00:12:22.571 Clock the wins and then that will grow 00:12:22.951 --> 00:12:24.912 the decision making and the confidence 00:12:24.951 --> 00:12:25.951 that comes behind it. 00:12:27.423 --> 00:12:29.024 Is that sort of like motion creates 00:12:29.065 --> 00:12:29.445 emotion, 00:12:29.485 --> 00:12:31.826 but a little bit of action creates a 00:12:31.866 --> 00:12:33.128 little bit of confidence and then a little 00:12:33.148 --> 00:12:34.548 bit of constant confidence creates a 00:12:34.570 --> 00:12:35.190 little bit of action. 00:12:35.570 --> 00:12:36.410 Exactly. 00:12:36.691 --> 00:12:37.231 Exactly. 00:12:37.331 --> 00:12:37.611 Yeah. 00:12:37.792 --> 00:12:39.533 It's, you know, take the win, 00:12:40.355 --> 00:12:42.876 learn from the win and use the win. 00:12:42.897 --> 00:12:42.996 Right. 00:12:44.258 --> 00:12:44.437 Yeah. 00:12:44.457 --> 00:12:45.619 I mean, 00:12:45.659 --> 00:12:46.860 some of the best advice I was ever 00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:47.701 given is, you know, 00:12:49.044 --> 00:12:50.005 and I know this is probably a little 00:12:50.046 --> 00:12:51.648 gender based, right? 00:12:51.727 --> 00:12:53.109 Men never ask for directions. 00:12:53.129 --> 00:12:54.870 And I just sort of leaned into that. 00:12:54.890 --> 00:12:55.272 I was like, 00:12:55.331 --> 00:12:56.452 but I feel like if I ask for 00:12:56.493 --> 00:12:56.972 directions, 00:12:56.993 --> 00:12:58.855 I'll just get to where I'm going faster. 00:12:58.875 --> 00:12:59.775 And the person I'm going to ask for 00:12:59.816 --> 00:13:01.298 directions a lot of times is a stranger. 00:13:01.638 --> 00:13:03.700 I sort of don't care if they know 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:04.681 that I don't know where I'm going at 00:13:04.721 --> 00:13:04.821 all. 00:13:04.841 --> 00:13:05.962 So I don't think it matters if I 00:13:06.003 --> 00:13:06.182 know 00:13:06.738 --> 00:13:07.698 I don't know where I'm going. 00:13:07.719 --> 00:13:08.719 The point is to get there. 00:13:08.739 --> 00:13:09.899 Right, exactly. 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:10.399 Which, again, 00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:13.861 is a simple but not easy explanation of 00:13:14.121 --> 00:13:15.182 what to do in that situation. 00:13:15.482 --> 00:13:16.484 But I get caught in that. 00:13:16.803 --> 00:13:19.024 You know, sort of know your superpowers, 00:13:19.346 --> 00:13:20.225 know your limitations, 00:13:20.245 --> 00:13:21.147 but also know your strengths. 00:13:21.527 --> 00:13:22.047 My strengths, 00:13:22.086 --> 00:13:22.868 or I like to think it is, 00:13:22.888 --> 00:13:23.868 is people, right? 00:13:24.188 --> 00:13:25.188 So when I'm in a situation where I 00:13:25.208 --> 00:13:26.610 don't know how to proceed, 00:13:27.090 --> 00:13:28.750 a lot of times I do try to 00:13:28.831 --> 00:13:31.493 figure out, listening to the five... 00:13:33.394 --> 00:13:36.135 sort of avatars where I'm sitting there 00:13:36.176 --> 00:13:37.777 going, well, I got hired to do this. 00:13:37.856 --> 00:13:38.657 Now I need to know how to do 00:13:38.817 --> 00:13:41.259 all of it myself or I'm no good. 00:13:41.298 --> 00:13:43.080 So it feels like soloists or 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:44.260 perfectionists or whatever, 00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:45.400 mix of all those. 00:13:45.421 --> 00:13:48.222 And then I eventually come to a point 00:13:48.243 --> 00:13:50.024 on a project that I'm like, well, 00:13:50.043 --> 00:13:51.424 I could just ask someone how to do 00:13:51.445 --> 00:13:52.365 this one thing. 00:13:52.625 --> 00:13:53.725 And most of the people that I know 00:13:53.745 --> 00:13:54.187 would just be like, 00:13:54.206 --> 00:13:56.288 they'll just tell me because they want to 00:13:56.307 --> 00:13:56.847 be helpful. 00:13:57.568 --> 00:13:59.509 And I wind up realizing that your 00:13:59.529 --> 00:14:00.890 superpower is actually the people around 00:14:00.910 --> 00:14:01.030 you. 00:14:01.774 --> 00:14:02.134 Absolutely. 00:14:02.154 --> 00:14:03.535 Not wanting to admit like I don't know, 00:14:03.696 --> 00:14:06.517 that's an internal barrier to me and 00:14:06.576 --> 00:14:06.898 others. 00:14:07.597 --> 00:14:09.538 Well, and that's exactly it. 00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:14.642 You're doing a disservice to yourself, 00:14:15.121 --> 00:14:16.322 but at the same time, 00:14:16.341 --> 00:14:18.363 you're also doing disservice to others to 00:14:18.423 --> 00:14:20.605 allow them to help you and allow them 00:14:20.644 --> 00:14:22.065 to grow as a leader, right? 00:14:22.085 --> 00:14:26.047 Because that's how we grow leadership is 00:14:26.727 --> 00:14:30.769 every question that is asked of us 00:14:31.750 --> 00:14:36.153 we give an answer we learn about ourselves 00:14:36.394 --> 00:14:38.777 and we learn about the thing that we're 00:14:38.797 --> 00:14:41.759 being asked about one of the best ways 00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:45.923 to overcome the expert profile or you know 00:14:45.964 --> 00:14:48.186 the expert profile or whatever yeah right 00:14:48.686 --> 00:14:52.450 exactly is teaching someone and 00:14:53.951 --> 00:14:55.672 proving to yourself how much you know. 00:14:56.152 --> 00:14:57.993 Well, every time you, 00:14:58.273 --> 00:15:00.793 as a person feeling imposter syndrome who 00:15:00.813 --> 00:15:01.913 feels like they have to take it on 00:15:02.134 --> 00:15:05.195 themselves, doesn't ask for help, 00:15:05.434 --> 00:15:07.495 you're not allowing somebody else with 00:15:07.535 --> 00:15:10.397 imposter syndrome to overcome their own 00:15:10.437 --> 00:15:12.837 imposter syndrome by teaching and by 00:15:13.097 --> 00:15:13.938 helping themselves. 00:15:13.999 --> 00:15:15.918 So it's like this cycle where we all 00:15:15.938 --> 00:15:18.440 just have to borrow from each other's 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:19.380 imposter syndromes. 00:15:21.421 --> 00:15:22.881 It's also been shown and I've seen 00:15:22.922 --> 00:15:27.403 examples where they've proved that someone 00:15:27.423 --> 00:15:29.403 in a room in a decision making, 00:15:29.663 --> 00:15:29.863 you know, 00:15:29.903 --> 00:15:31.263 in a team and a decision making, 00:15:31.283 --> 00:15:33.803 the person who asks the most questions 00:15:34.024 --> 00:15:35.984 actually winds up looking like they have 00:15:36.384 --> 00:15:39.325 more authority than they would if they 00:15:39.565 --> 00:15:41.586 only tried to answer things or if they 00:15:41.605 --> 00:15:42.846 kept their mouth shut the whole time. 00:15:42.865 --> 00:15:42.946 Yeah. 00:15:44.561 --> 00:15:45.041 And it actually, 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.562 the thing that I was reading said that 00:15:47.602 --> 00:15:50.544 the person asking the most basic questions 00:15:51.125 --> 00:15:53.966 actually winds up looking like they know 00:15:54.008 --> 00:15:56.288 the most or close to it because it 00:15:56.328 --> 00:15:57.649 shows that they're trying to make, 00:15:57.929 --> 00:16:00.272 they're not trying to come and exert their 00:16:00.312 --> 00:16:00.952 authority. 00:16:01.432 --> 00:16:02.874 They're trying to show that they're 00:16:02.894 --> 00:16:04.134 looking for understanding. 00:16:04.955 --> 00:16:05.315 Right. 00:16:05.456 --> 00:16:06.176 Exactly. 00:16:06.196 --> 00:16:07.376 This is my secret for trying to look 00:16:07.397 --> 00:16:09.119 like the most interesting person at a 00:16:09.158 --> 00:16:11.020 dinner party is I just ask questions. 00:16:11.061 --> 00:16:12.001 I don't answer any of them. 00:16:13.663 --> 00:16:14.403 He's really interesting. 00:16:14.423 --> 00:16:15.024 I was like, no, 00:16:15.044 --> 00:16:15.705 I just asked a bunch. 00:16:15.785 --> 00:16:17.106 I mean, that's the cheat code, right? 00:16:17.167 --> 00:16:19.568 But it works not as a trick, 00:16:19.589 --> 00:16:21.071 but as a method. 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:22.440 Absolutely. 00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:23.020 You know, 00:16:23.061 --> 00:16:25.962 and then there's a whole other part of 00:16:26.003 --> 00:16:26.283 that, 00:16:26.342 --> 00:16:28.583 which is how do you ask the question, 00:16:28.644 --> 00:16:28.984 right? 00:16:30.225 --> 00:16:34.048 The words matter and the way you ask 00:16:34.067 --> 00:16:34.607 the question, 00:16:36.269 --> 00:16:37.950 there's something to the effect of, 00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:40.971 you know, if I ask you, well, 00:16:42.253 --> 00:16:45.674 I'm not sure if I understood that versus 00:16:46.355 --> 00:16:48.436 here's what I hear and here's what I 00:16:48.475 --> 00:16:49.157 took from this. 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.640 Let's make sure we're on the same page. 00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:56.503 That's a different way of communicating 00:16:57.163 --> 00:17:01.205 and acting confident even when you're not. 00:17:01.225 --> 00:17:02.025 Think until you make it. 00:17:03.145 --> 00:17:03.866 Chris Voss, 00:17:03.886 --> 00:17:05.126 are you familiar with Chris Voss? 00:17:06.028 --> 00:17:07.268 FBI hostage negotiator. 00:17:07.307 --> 00:17:08.229 I reference him often. 00:17:08.269 --> 00:17:10.250 I think his tactics are stunningly simple 00:17:10.289 --> 00:17:11.069 and very powerful. 00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:12.931 He even just talks about mirroring. 00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:17.469 Where he'll just repeat the last two to 00:17:17.528 --> 00:17:19.109 four words that someone said. 00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:21.551 Because he's pointed out if you ask 00:17:21.592 --> 00:17:23.673 someone a question about what they just 00:17:23.693 --> 00:17:23.854 said, 00:17:23.874 --> 00:17:24.974 a lot of times they'll just repeat what 00:17:24.994 --> 00:17:27.557 they just said louder or faster. 00:17:27.576 --> 00:17:28.057 Right. 00:17:28.156 --> 00:17:30.098 Because they feel questioned. 00:17:30.578 --> 00:17:32.181 But if you don't question, 00:17:32.621 --> 00:17:34.343 if you go with... And he literally says, 00:17:34.742 --> 00:17:35.303 because again, 00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:37.265 as a former hostage negotiator, 00:17:38.125 --> 00:17:39.527 he didn't have a lot of leverage. 00:17:39.547 --> 00:17:39.646 Right. 00:17:40.532 --> 00:17:42.973 The hostage taker had people or whatever. 00:17:43.513 --> 00:17:45.534 And his job was to build rapport. 00:17:46.255 --> 00:17:47.795 And he would talk about that process of 00:17:47.894 --> 00:17:49.674 mirroring and how powerful it is. 00:17:49.734 --> 00:17:51.875 And it almost feels like a cheat code 00:17:51.895 --> 00:17:52.796 when you start using it, 00:17:52.836 --> 00:17:54.936 especially someone in my job as an 00:17:54.997 --> 00:17:55.376 interviewer. 00:17:55.416 --> 00:17:56.977 But people in healthcare, 00:17:57.237 --> 00:17:59.357 you're professional interviewers too. 00:17:59.917 --> 00:18:02.018 Using these very basic but powerful tools 00:18:02.479 --> 00:18:03.759 can get you a lot of information. 00:18:04.337 --> 00:18:06.219 absolutely think about how many times you 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:08.060 you know when you're talking with a 00:18:08.101 --> 00:18:09.721 patient and you're trying to get their his 00:18:09.761 --> 00:18:11.343 your their case history you know their 00:18:11.502 --> 00:18:14.586 their medical history and you have to 00:18:14.625 --> 00:18:16.326 phrase something a little bit different 00:18:16.707 --> 00:18:20.130 way to get them to talk about what 00:18:20.150 --> 00:18:21.550 they've you know what they've been doing 00:18:21.590 --> 00:18:23.553 so it's it's all communication factors and 00:18:23.593 --> 00:18:26.634 how we can phrase things suddenly me 00:18:26.654 --> 00:18:28.076 getting a degree in communications seems 00:18:28.256 --> 00:18:28.635 like 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:31.000 Like it was a good idea, 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:32.621 not just I wanted to play radio and 00:18:32.641 --> 00:18:34.280 make funny videos and things like that for 00:18:34.300 --> 00:18:34.540 a job. 00:18:36.260 --> 00:18:39.261 Outside of knowing those avatars that you 00:18:39.301 --> 00:18:40.041 mentioned before, 00:18:40.082 --> 00:18:42.622 and I'll put the link to that guide 00:18:42.682 --> 00:18:44.123 I found online in the show notes, 00:18:44.163 --> 00:18:46.843 but what's a practical tool you'd suggest 00:18:46.883 --> 00:18:49.564 for leaders so they can use when imposter 00:18:49.584 --> 00:18:51.584 syndrome shows up in the moment? 00:18:51.604 --> 00:18:55.964 I think two main things that... 00:18:57.272 --> 00:19:00.455 actually three. 00:19:00.536 --> 00:19:03.038 Again, the avatar is one thing, right? 00:19:03.698 --> 00:19:05.420 Identifying that, but just naming it. 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.001 That's the most important thing is this, 00:19:08.221 --> 00:19:11.464 this is showing up right now as an 00:19:11.585 --> 00:19:12.505 expert profile. 00:19:13.786 --> 00:19:15.167 Now, let me learn, you know, 00:19:15.228 --> 00:19:17.128 learn strategies to help overcome that. 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:21.152 So that's number one. 00:19:21.272 --> 00:19:22.834 One of the best things that I think 00:19:24.392 --> 00:19:27.334 helps people in different moments 00:19:27.614 --> 00:19:30.576 different scenarios is building what i 00:19:30.615 --> 00:19:33.176 call i'm really actually factually good at 00:19:33.217 --> 00:19:38.160 this um list whatever that list is so 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:42.823 i'm really actually factually good at you 00:19:42.843 --> 00:19:44.644 know leading a meeting and here's how i 00:19:44.703 --> 00:19:47.266 know that and putting the proof the 00:19:47.385 --> 00:19:50.087 evidence list in front of you so 00:19:51.468 --> 00:19:53.429 all the certifications that you have, 00:19:53.989 --> 00:19:56.069 all the praise that you've gotten. 00:19:56.790 --> 00:19:59.372 And that can be any kind of praise. 00:19:59.511 --> 00:20:01.032 It can be a thank you note you 00:20:01.073 --> 00:20:01.972 got from a patient. 00:20:02.232 --> 00:20:04.575 It can be a performance review where you 00:20:04.634 --> 00:20:05.434 kicked ass. 00:20:05.954 --> 00:20:08.576 It can be a LinkedIn message of, hey, 00:20:08.676 --> 00:20:10.938 I saw this that you posted and it 00:20:10.998 --> 00:20:11.758 really spoke to me. 00:20:11.798 --> 00:20:12.219 I liked it. 00:20:12.298 --> 00:20:12.699 Thank you. 00:20:12.878 --> 00:20:14.920 Print that out and post it somewhere, 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:15.339 right? 00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:17.201 It can be a Teams message, 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:18.061 a Slack message. 00:20:18.102 --> 00:20:18.481 It can be 00:20:19.317 --> 00:20:20.138 It can be, you know, 00:20:20.298 --> 00:20:22.300 a word on the street, write it down, 00:20:22.681 --> 00:20:26.403 but have that actually factually good at 00:20:26.564 --> 00:20:28.326 list in front of you so that you 00:20:28.346 --> 00:20:30.327 can refer back to it in that moment 00:20:30.587 --> 00:20:31.888 when you're starting to doubt. 00:20:31.929 --> 00:20:34.550 Because what happens is our mind always 00:20:34.590 --> 00:20:36.613 goes to the weakness. 00:20:36.772 --> 00:20:38.414 Our mind always goes to, you know, 00:20:38.634 --> 00:20:40.395 when put in that in that moment, 00:20:40.435 --> 00:20:42.657 you're going to think of the same or 00:20:42.698 --> 00:20:46.181 similar type of moment that you had where 00:20:46.201 --> 00:20:46.821 you messed up. 00:20:47.502 --> 00:20:49.423 where you weren't at your best. 00:20:49.683 --> 00:20:50.644 It's what our mind does. 00:20:50.683 --> 00:20:51.644 It's a natural thing. 00:20:52.065 --> 00:20:53.945 So if you have the actually factually good 00:20:54.006 --> 00:20:56.185 at list in front of you, 00:20:56.646 --> 00:20:59.607 now you're countering your own mind to 00:20:59.667 --> 00:21:02.308 say, no, wait, I know that happened once. 00:21:03.368 --> 00:21:04.509 I know I walked into the room and 00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:08.290 tripped and fell and made a fool of 00:21:08.310 --> 00:21:09.771 myself in front of my team. 00:21:09.912 --> 00:21:12.051 And now nobody sees me as a leader. 00:21:12.092 --> 00:21:13.413 They see me as this fool. 00:21:14.472 --> 00:21:15.814 Okay, yeah, that happened once. 00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:16.869 You know, 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:18.191 not saying that was from personal 00:21:18.211 --> 00:21:20.692 experience or anything, but, you know, 00:21:20.971 --> 00:21:22.211 maybe that happened one time. 00:21:22.673 --> 00:21:24.472 But actually, factually, 00:21:25.114 --> 00:21:27.974 I've led teams of twenty seven people and 00:21:28.414 --> 00:21:30.695 have gotten great buy in and have forged 00:21:30.736 --> 00:21:33.596 good relationships and promoted three of 00:21:33.636 --> 00:21:36.578 my team members up the ranks that actually 00:21:36.618 --> 00:21:37.538 factually happened. 00:21:37.558 --> 00:21:38.219 Yeah. 00:21:38.459 --> 00:21:38.638 Yeah. 00:21:38.679 --> 00:21:39.680 The tripping and falling might have 00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:40.420 happened, too. 00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.520 But here's my actually factually list. 00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:43.461 Yeah. 00:21:43.721 --> 00:21:43.961 Yeah. 00:21:44.826 --> 00:21:46.969 What would you say to a clinician sitting 00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:50.790 quietly in leadership meetings right now? 00:21:51.192 --> 00:21:55.194 Because a meeting is an arena, right? 00:21:55.214 --> 00:21:56.756 You've made it to that and you're looking 00:21:56.816 --> 00:21:57.195 around. 00:21:57.476 --> 00:21:58.616 I've been in rooms where I'm like, 00:22:00.338 --> 00:22:01.439 not sure how I got here. 00:22:01.459 --> 00:22:03.740 I jokingly was in a very large meeting 00:22:03.881 --> 00:22:07.743 and I very clearly was background, age, 00:22:07.943 --> 00:22:08.364 all of it, 00:22:08.424 --> 00:22:10.846 like the sticking out like a sore thumb. 00:22:10.885 --> 00:22:11.527 And I jokingly, 00:22:11.547 --> 00:22:12.827 when we're introducing ourselves, like, 00:22:13.922 --> 00:22:15.344 This is how I alleviated some stress. 00:22:15.403 --> 00:22:15.624 I said, 00:22:16.285 --> 00:22:18.146 I won a contest in a supermarket to 00:22:18.248 --> 00:22:20.790 be on this board, which got some LOLs. 00:22:21.412 --> 00:22:22.532 But at the same token, I was like, 00:22:23.054 --> 00:22:24.555 that feels more plausible than me being 00:22:24.635 --> 00:22:26.377 asked to be here because I'm not 00:22:26.458 --> 00:22:27.019 understanding. 00:22:27.058 --> 00:22:28.400 But how would you... 00:22:28.881 --> 00:22:29.961 What would you say to someone... 00:22:30.762 --> 00:22:32.683 earlier in their career when they've made 00:22:32.723 --> 00:22:34.224 it to a room that they maybe don't 00:22:34.244 --> 00:22:35.885 feel like they belong. 00:22:35.925 --> 00:22:39.367 And I feel like being quiet is the 00:22:39.387 --> 00:22:40.988 defense mechanism because I've used it. 00:22:41.409 --> 00:22:41.669 Right. 00:22:41.709 --> 00:22:43.430 But you're in the room because you were 00:22:43.509 --> 00:22:44.390 asked to be in that room. 00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:45.351 So what would you tell those people? 00:22:45.391 --> 00:22:47.372 Is there tactics or what advice or what 00:22:47.392 --> 00:22:47.711 would you do? 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:48.901 Yeah. 00:22:48.941 --> 00:22:51.102 So switching the mindset from, 00:22:51.923 --> 00:22:52.883 do I belong here? 00:22:53.304 --> 00:22:55.005 Which is the question that everybody, 00:22:55.265 --> 00:22:55.484 you know, 00:22:55.525 --> 00:22:57.787 at one point in their life and you 00:22:57.826 --> 00:22:59.708 get in that room, you, you immediately, 00:23:00.409 --> 00:23:01.368 I don't belong here. 00:23:01.750 --> 00:23:02.869 So you start to say, you know, 00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:03.691 do I belong here? 00:23:03.730 --> 00:23:04.571 Do I really belong here? 00:23:04.971 --> 00:23:07.614 So switching that phrase from, 00:23:07.814 --> 00:23:08.894 do I belong here too? 00:23:09.335 --> 00:23:09.535 Okay. 00:23:09.615 --> 00:23:11.517 What problem am I here to solve? 00:23:12.737 --> 00:23:15.459 And when you shift the attention from 00:23:15.499 --> 00:23:16.259 yourself, 00:23:16.892 --> 00:23:19.932 to the value that you can bring and 00:23:19.952 --> 00:23:23.134 you focus on the mission of that group, 00:23:23.773 --> 00:23:25.473 not your own self-evaluation, 00:23:25.634 --> 00:23:28.315 that helps the process along. 00:23:28.414 --> 00:23:31.715 So making it more external, 00:23:32.016 --> 00:23:34.676 what value am I here that can bring 00:23:34.717 --> 00:23:36.758 to this whole team or this whole group 00:23:36.798 --> 00:23:37.817 or this problem, 00:23:38.998 --> 00:23:41.398 it shifts that focus from internal. 00:23:41.419 --> 00:23:44.819 How can that be helpful? 00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:45.690 Yeah. 00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:46.410 Yeah. 00:23:46.589 --> 00:23:48.111 Because we can all be helpful in some 00:23:48.131 --> 00:23:48.931 way, shape or form. 00:23:50.151 --> 00:23:52.372 One of the best things that happened to 00:23:52.412 --> 00:23:54.772 me years and years ago, 00:23:55.272 --> 00:23:58.874 I was sitting on a committee for ASHA, 00:23:59.294 --> 00:24:02.714 which I looked around and I went, oh, 00:24:02.734 --> 00:24:04.336 my God, there are. 00:24:05.643 --> 00:24:06.502 bigwigs here. 00:24:06.542 --> 00:24:09.064 There are names that I have only seen 00:24:09.584 --> 00:24:11.125 in journal articles, you know, 00:24:11.605 --> 00:24:12.244 and here I am, 00:24:12.285 --> 00:24:15.066 and I clearly got in the wrong room. 00:24:15.125 --> 00:24:16.205 I clearly took a wrong turn. 00:24:17.486 --> 00:24:19.227 And so I was quiet for most of 00:24:19.267 --> 00:24:19.646 the meeting, 00:24:19.666 --> 00:24:20.707 and it was a three-day meeting. 00:24:21.948 --> 00:24:25.229 And I spoke up one time, maybe two, 00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:30.170 and the co-leader of this meeting pulled 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:31.769 me aside afterwards and said, 00:24:32.990 --> 00:24:33.570 that was 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:37.561 the best comment out of the entire 00:24:37.602 --> 00:24:37.903 meeting. 00:24:38.242 --> 00:24:40.805 It was the most valuable comment that we 00:24:40.825 --> 00:24:41.586 took away from it. 00:24:42.105 --> 00:24:43.227 And I looked at him and I went, 00:24:43.768 --> 00:24:44.528 oh, thanks, 00:24:44.548 --> 00:24:45.569 that was nice of you to say. 00:24:45.589 --> 00:24:46.450 And he said, no, 00:24:46.490 --> 00:24:48.251 I need you to say things more. 00:24:49.373 --> 00:24:50.554 And it was one of those things that 00:24:50.594 --> 00:24:50.994 I just went, 00:24:51.375 --> 00:24:54.397 my voice actually does have purpose. 00:24:56.020 --> 00:24:59.301 But I needed to just hear that that 00:24:59.362 --> 00:25:02.064 was one thing was okay and it helped 00:25:02.144 --> 00:25:02.263 me. 00:25:02.324 --> 00:25:04.084 But if I would have just been able 00:25:04.124 --> 00:25:05.765 to say it to myself rather than have 00:25:05.805 --> 00:25:06.945 somebody else say it to me, 00:25:07.346 --> 00:25:08.165 I would have said a lot more in 00:25:08.185 --> 00:25:09.346 that meeting from the get-go. 00:25:09.666 --> 00:25:10.067 Yeah. 00:25:10.126 --> 00:25:12.607 And the room might have lost because you 00:25:12.627 --> 00:25:14.469 were quiet for so much out of three 00:25:14.489 --> 00:25:14.949 days. 00:25:15.429 --> 00:25:16.089 Right. 00:25:16.109 --> 00:25:16.470 Exactly. 00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:17.730 A lot of times the person who speaks, 00:25:17.769 --> 00:25:19.131 this is coming from me who talks a 00:25:19.171 --> 00:25:19.371 lot. 00:25:20.423 --> 00:25:22.105 A lot of times it's not the number 00:25:22.144 --> 00:25:22.705 of words. 00:25:22.865 --> 00:25:23.586 Most of the time, 00:25:23.625 --> 00:25:24.467 not the number of words. 00:25:24.507 --> 00:25:25.847 It's the right words at the right time 00:25:25.867 --> 00:25:26.667 for the right reason. 00:25:27.088 --> 00:25:27.969 Exactly. 00:25:27.989 --> 00:25:28.930 You ready for your parting shot? 00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:31.652 I am. 00:25:32.172 --> 00:25:33.292 This is the parting shot. 00:25:33.853 --> 00:25:35.713 One last mic drop moment. 00:25:35.934 --> 00:25:36.734 No pressure. 00:25:37.195 --> 00:25:39.297 Just your legacy on the line. 00:25:40.708 --> 00:25:42.028 right parting shot brought to you by our 00:25:42.068 --> 00:25:44.651 friends at us physical therapy we 00:25:44.691 --> 00:25:46.712 partnered with clinic owners who want to 00:25:46.732 --> 00:25:48.273 grow without losing their identity that's 00:25:48.294 --> 00:25:50.375 what they do at usph you stay local 00:25:50.395 --> 00:25:52.798 and in control while getting the resources 00:25:52.837 --> 00:25:55.220 and mentorship of a national network find 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.662 them online at usph.com and that's 00:25:57.823 --> 00:26:00.444 usph.com so i'll throw you a question if 00:26:00.464 --> 00:26:02.006 a clinician listening right now feels like 00:26:02.026 --> 00:26:04.268 they don't belong in leadership but 00:26:04.307 --> 00:26:06.009 they're there that's the setting 00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.391 what would you want them to remember not 00:26:08.471 --> 00:26:10.810 do but remember to think of to hold 00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:12.731 on to what would you give them to 00:26:12.751 --> 00:26:19.713 to grab onto everybody has been at a 00:26:19.794 --> 00:26:22.434 starting point at some point nobody 00:26:23.756 --> 00:26:26.957 magically was birthed and then stepped 00:26:26.997 --> 00:26:30.738 into a leadership role so everyone has had 00:26:30.917 --> 00:26:33.439 a first moment a first 00:26:34.444 --> 00:26:34.644 you know, 00:26:35.026 --> 00:26:36.928 leadership position in a committee, 00:26:37.448 --> 00:26:40.511 a first leadership position in a company, 00:26:42.173 --> 00:26:43.394 a first time having a student, 00:26:43.455 --> 00:26:46.659 a first whatever, everybody's been there, 00:26:46.798 --> 00:26:49.021 everybody's been where you are right now, 00:26:50.222 --> 00:26:52.266 and nobody has died 00:26:55.163 --> 00:26:57.486 So you will survive. 00:26:57.726 --> 00:27:00.228 You will get through it. 00:27:00.307 --> 00:27:01.789 And you just, you know, 00:27:02.009 --> 00:27:04.272 if you keep in mind the fact that 00:27:05.012 --> 00:27:07.895 you're not alone and you deserve to be 00:27:07.915 --> 00:27:08.457 where you are. 00:27:09.864 --> 00:27:10.223 Perfect. 00:27:10.884 --> 00:27:12.846 Katie, thanks for walking us through this. 00:27:13.125 --> 00:27:14.047 I think we could have the same 00:27:14.086 --> 00:27:17.229 conversation in six months and still be 00:27:17.269 --> 00:27:20.029 valuable because I think sometimes you, 00:27:20.089 --> 00:27:21.111 well, I don't know. 00:27:21.151 --> 00:27:22.172 Maybe we never outgrow this, 00:27:22.192 --> 00:27:23.271 but as long as you can understand that 00:27:23.291 --> 00:27:24.292 it's there and how to use it and 00:27:24.313 --> 00:27:25.074 how to lean into it, 00:27:25.153 --> 00:27:26.815 I think it just affects us less. 00:27:26.835 --> 00:27:29.256 Exactly. 00:27:29.276 --> 00:27:30.356 Katie Holterman, thanks for stopping by. 00:27:30.376 --> 00:27:30.696 I appreciate it. 00:27:30.717 --> 00:27:31.416 Thank you so much. 00:27:33.378 --> 00:27:34.460 That's it for this one, 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.401 but we're just getting warmed up. 00:27:36.861 --> 00:27:38.781 Smash follow, send it to a friend, 00:27:39.002 --> 00:27:40.663 or crank up the next episode. 00:27:41.183 --> 00:27:42.105 Want to go deeper? 00:27:42.545 --> 00:27:46.586 Hit us at pgpinecast.com or find us on 00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:49.169 YouTube and socials at pgpinecast. 00:27:49.588 --> 00:27:51.871 And legally, none of this was advice. 00:27:51.951 --> 00:27:53.711 It's for entertainment purposes only. 00:27:53.751 --> 00:27:54.291 Bullshit! 00:27:55.353 --> 00:27:55.932 See, Keith? 00:27:56.153 --> 00:27:57.213 We read the script. 00:27:57.513 --> 00:27:58.194 Happy now?