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Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.
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Our guest today has been in the trenches,
the boardroom, the NFL sidelines.
He's helped build one of the largest PT
networks in the country,
worked with elite athletes,
and mentored generations of clinicians.
And now, after five decades in the game,
he's got opinions about where this thing
is headed next.
And how do we thrive in it, right?
We didn't show up to come in last,
right?
We want to thrive.
From co-founding professional physical
therapy to overseeing health, performance,
and innovation in pro sports,
this guy's career is like a roadmap,
but like nobody else's.
Rob joins the show right now.
Rob, welcome to the program.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me.
I don't even know where to start.
Like your LinkedIn profile,
like gave me whiplash a little bit,
just reading all the different things that
you've done.
How do you explain like where, which,
you know, how do you,
how do you wrap up a career like
that into an explanation?
I don't think an intro can do it
justice.
I just think as you and I have
had discussions,
I just think you work hard,
you place efforts,
and some decisions you'll make and some
decisions will be made for you.
And we spoke a little bit before.
I used to be the head strength and
conditioning coach at St.
John's University with Coach Conaseca,
Lou Conaseca.
And those of you who are young,
I know Coach Conaseca.
He's a Hall of Fame basketball coach,
won three out of every four games he
coached.
And I asked him once,
and I pretty much thought I had the
obvious answer,
but I just wanted his opinion.
I said, Coach, what's more important –
to winning a basketball game,
the coaching or the players?
And he didn't answer me right away.
He just looked at me, paused and said,
sixty percent players,
thirty percent coaching and ten percent
luck.
But you make your own luck.
And that kind of stuck with me.
And so I think you make your own
luck and that helps, you know,
develop the pathways of your career.
Yeah,
luck favors the people who actually show
up, right?
Opportunity plus preparation.
When you say work hard,
what does it mean in twenty twenty six?
Like what is it and is it different
than it than it was in two thousand
and six or nineteen eighty six?
I think working hard has always been
working hard.
Again, we've spoken a little bit before.
What's new isn't always new.
There's some consistency of what was old.
Communication.
You have to be able to communicate.
That's always been a founding entity of
success.
Just things like that.
That has never changed.
I think situations change,
but I think work effort doesn't change
with regards to a definition.
Just the application may change,
so to speak,
based on the situation presented.
Right.
So great.
Agreed.
All right.
But you've had an amazing career.
Is it repeatable today?
Right.
So, like, I guess the question is.
How much of someone's path is what Coach
Carneseca said, which is like, hey,
is it timing?
Is it luck?
Is it luck meets preparation?
That's what luck is versus intent.
Like, that's what we're looking for,
which is like,
you've had the amazing career.
Is it repeatable?
for anybody.
I think it is.
Sure, you still need directors of rehab.
You still need good care.
I think the field is wide open.
And I understand the hurdles to go through
it.
And the hurdles change.
Like when I first started in my career,
when you had surgery,
There was a surgeon and an assistant
attending surgeon, right?
What do you have now?
The fellow and PAs.
No disrespect.
It just changed.
On a hospital floor, you had eight PTs.
Now you have four PTs and four PTAs,
right?
Because you had to adjust.
You had to change with the times,
whether it was reimbursement,
whether it was legalities,
whatever it may be.
And so you adapt and you change with
the times,
but the opportunities are still going to
be there.
You know,
you talk about my owner of when I
was in the NFL,
my owner told me he'll take luck all
the time versus anything else because
luck's a hundred percent.
So, you know,
if you make your own luck,
I think part of that is through the
hard effort.
And doing the things that maybe other
people aren't willing to do.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
But if you're not willing to make the
efforts,
don't expect the same rewards of those who
do.
That's all I'm saying with regards to some
of the things I've written.
Is there is there a point where you
could reassess mid-game and say the juice
isn't worth the squeeze?
I'm putting more effort.
I'm providing more opportunity and more
hard work.
But the ROI is lower.
We interviewed Larry Benz just a couple of
days ago, and he's done the math.
I'm not going to question his math unless
I use AI because I can't.
But he said right now we're at a
point six nine.
You put a buck in,
you get sixty nine cents out in terms
of education and cost.
And then.
We're talking about two different things,
though.
I'm talking about his career.
You're talking about running a business.
Those are two different things,
even though they meet, right?
Because they meet.
Because in a business,
when the expense line crosses the income
line, you're out of business, right?
Correct.
And so there is definitive limitations on
what you can do with the monies you
have and the decisions you make on how
you're going to spend those monies.
So with regards to the PT's career, yeah,
I think there are limitations on ROI.
What are some examples of those
limitations?
One is when you're one of the better
people in the organization and you're very
dependable,
everybody's going to go to you
with the tasks at hand, right?
So you may be asked to do more
work than other people because you're more
dependable.
Now,
are you compensated and are you treated
fairly for doing that extra work?
And if you're not, that's not right.
So then maybe I would advise you to
look for employment elsewhere or
opportunity elsewhere.
If you are, then you have to decide,
is the benefits I'm getting from working
harder than everybody else worth it?
So, you know,
if you're not getting those benefits, no,
then the ROI wasn't worth it, right?
You're just getting someone who's being
overwhelmed with work and not rewarded for
that.
Right.
I was taught this early in my career.
There were some jobs around the radio
station that were necessary that weren't
as fun.
I was excited to be in the building.
So I was like,
I don't care what you got.
You need a toilet cleaned,
whatever you need.
And I learned the the the the breaking
dishes theory,
which was we asked some people who had
some experience to do some of these things
needed to be done.
and they would do them but out of
malicious compliance.
They'd do them poorly on purpose so that
someone would have to redo them so that
then they'd stop asking that person in the
first place.
Sort of a negative feedback loop.
And you don't want to be that person,
but then the flip side is we've heard
if you're good at your job,
you get rewarded with more work.
which is a hard pill to swallow.
But I think you give good advice,
which is you have to ask yourself if
that's if if what is happening is OK
and if it isn't, you got to move.
So let's take the same scenarios.
You're you're you're an attorney and
you've just graduated law school and
you've joined a firm.
and you desire to become a partner,
who's more likely to become a partner in
that law firm?
The person who's overwhelmed with work and
is successfully producing with the wealth
work assigned to them,
or the person who is continually
purposely doing things incorrectly so they
don't get more work.
So again, you know, like don't,
don't complain if you don't receive the
rewards for your efforts.
Now, if you don't think again,
if you don't think you're treated fairly
for the efforts you're making,
then to stay there for a long period
of time and nothing changed, shame on you.
Right.
So, you know,
That's when I was introduced to the sunk
cost fallacy.
I'd never heard of that before and it
really was, well,
you've been here for X long or you've
invested and what you should look at is,
well, what is the other side of that?
I could have stayed in radio past,
but I looked ahead five, ten, fifteen,
twenty years and I said,
I don't like the way that returns,
not even just monetarily.
For me,
it was turning into something I wouldn't
have signed up that day
knowing what it looked like a year from
then.
That's when I did the math and decided
to leave.
And two and two things that I'll point
out to you that I've experienced both
personally and as an imposition of
authority, if you want to use that term.
One is don't be surprised when you give
your resignation is that's when all the
rewards are offered.
Right, right.
Because they don't want to lose you,
right?
Right, right.
Like,
where were you before it came to this
point?
Correct.
And then, again,
you have to decide at that point in
time, okay, I'll stay, or no,
it's too late, I've got a better offer,
I'll go, right?
Yep.
The other thing is when an organization or
a team or an entity over time becomes
very successful,
often the people that have contributed to
that success are
Their contributions are acknowledged,
but oftentimes people think their
contributions carry more weight or have
more value than in reality they did.
And that's an other side of that coin
conversation.
You sometimes have to say that, yes,
you got X because
This is what you're deserving for these
reasons.
You didn't get why,
even though you think you deserve why,
again, for these reasons.
So there's both sides of that coin as
well.
Yeah,
I've learned or I was smart enough to
read books by smart people.
Chris Voss was an FBI hostage negotiator,
and he outlines, listen,
If someone's speaking to you in logic and
you're speaking back in emotion,
you will never see eye to eye.
You're speaking English,
but you're speaking two different
languages there.
So you have to make sure you both
understand the conversation that you're
having or there's misalignment and nothing
is worse than that.
Imagine someone working ten years and
assuming that what they were doing was X
when in reality it was valued at Y
the whole time and that is when you
see misalignment and that's when
frustrations pop up.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And if someone, listen,
I would put some of that responsibility on
their supervisor because supervisors in my
mind are responsible for clarity, right?
But what was your line before?
It might not be my fault,
but it's still my fault,
but it's my problem.
So you own a physical therapy, Larry,
right?
You own a physical therapy business and
his biggest referring physician gets upset
because an employee,
a physical therapist injured one of their
patients or ruined the surgery.
Larry didn't do that,
but he's going to get a call from
the physician saying,
I'm never sending you a patient again.
Not my fault, but it's my problem.
Right.
And so you address these things.
Yeah.
Some of the best advice I usually say
is before you point a finger, like,
how could I have done this better?
Or did I cause this?
If you start there and you own it,
even if it wasn't your fault,
if you start there,
probably a better chance of seeing a
better resolution.
Sure.
Yeah.
What do you think newer grads
misunderstand about what it takes to
succeed?
Where's the misalignment?
What advice?
I mean,
you've mentored people at all different
levels.
What are some of the common
misconceptions?
I think communication has to improve.
And just so you know, as we're speaking,
And I didn't have to do this.
Okay.
I had to walk to school,
but I have to walk to school two
miles uphill and four feet of snow both
ways.
All right.
And if I did,
I wouldn't expect someone else to do that.
Because if you had a better way to
do that, God bless you.
Don't be the idiot and choose the harder
choice.
Right.
So I think communication is not what it
used to be in some ways.
And I'll go back.
And again, I don't mean to sound like
You know, the older guy.
But, you know, today's day and age,
like I have friends of mine,
my children are a little older,
but I have friends of mine whose kids
are in high school.
They ask a girl out on a date
via text.
They break up via text.
There is something to having the courage
to going up and possibly getting rejected.
There is something to actually getting
rejected and learning to talk because life
is full of rejections.
Right.
I mean,
you read things nowadays where people,
twenty percent of the population I've
read, whether true or not,
twenty percent of the population are
bringing their parents to job interviews.
Right.
I mean.
So there are certain, like, you know,
be able to do,
those are the things you need to be
able to do in those instances where those
things are recurrent.
So you have to be able to communicate
your feelings, your thoughts,
whether verbally in writing, et cetera.
I also don't think you poo poo a
lot of the things that were done in
the past.
What do you poo poo?
When I started in physical therapy and
sports medicine,
We casted our ACLs at thirty degrees in
deflection,
twenty degrees for six to eight weeks.
I would take today's rehab with an ACL
ten times and twice on Sundays over
the ACL of forty years ago, right?
But some of the principles,
some of the work ethics,
some of the things that have worked have
surpassed the test of time and continue to
be effective.
And so don't say just because we did
that twenty or thirty years ago that you
should poo-poo it because
We have adapted as professionals,
regardless of the profession you're in
through the decades,
because if you haven't adapted,
you'd be out of business.
Sure.
Or you or you wouldn't be a successful
therapist or whatever it may be.
But some of those principles also came
along for the ride,
like in strength and conditioning.
You know, they'll talk about, you know,
they used to say the next machine would
be the next best thing to free weights.
Well, the free weights was a standard.
We still use free weights.
We still squat.
We still do things.
There were exercises over a hundred years
ago.
Now, new exercises evolved.
Have technology made things better?
A hundred percent.
But some things have survived and passed a
test of time for a reason.
Yeah, those basics.
Exercise, whatever it may be.
One of my first episodes started this
podcast by accident as a student.
And for some reason, it's still going.
But Eric Mara,
who was a sports physical therapist,
gave me his three A's.
I want to see if you agree with
his three A's.
I said it was halfway through PT school.
I was thinking about sports.
And I said,
how do you be a great sports physical
therapist?
I was I was expecting some big,
fancy answer.
And Eric went the other way.
And I still remember this from ten years
ago.
He said, you need the three A's.
You need to be available.
Sports are a twenty four seven three sixty
five situation, especially athletes.
This is their body, their livelihood,
their future.
So he said,
you got to be available and you got
to understand that.
He said, you got to be affable,
meaning having a good at you have to
be people have to want to be around
you.
These guys have a choice they could pick
from lots of people.
If you're got an attitude,
you ain't going to be there.
And then the third one.
Confused me even more.
He said adequate.
He said, you need to know the basics.
Well, you can figure out the other stuff.
So he said available, affable, adequate.
How'd Eric do?
You did well.
I agree with him.
I think there's other things,
but all right.
So you have to be available.
There goes your forty hour work week.
Right.
Oh, yeah.
I don't know that going in.
Yeah.
You have to be accepted by everyone.
Communication.
Yep.
Right.
And then the third one.
Yeah.
If you don't have the basics, how you.
So let's just we'll talk about physical
qualities because I'm not that bright a
guy.
Sometimes.
Right.
So I like to make analogies.
OK, because it's easier.
It's easier to explain yourself.
If you can explain it to a sixth
grader,
which I'm not insinuating you're a sixth
grader, but then it's very easy.
Right.
So when we talk about physical quality,
strength, power, speed, things like that.
Right.
Well,
strength is the ability to produce force.
So you can't produce force.
How are you going to produce force
quickly?
Right.
So if you don't have the basics,
whether it's knowledge and or clinical
skills,
if you don't understand that or or know
things, how are you going to progress it?
So, for instance,
you see me doing an exercise and you
like that.
You don't know why I'm doing it,
but you like it and you start to
do an exercise.
OK.
And it works.
now you now your athlete has plateaued on
that exercise you want to progress the
exercise well if you don't know what the
exercise is and what it does how you're
going to progress it right so you need
to know the basics and eric's right on
that as well yep whether it's business
whether it's treating a patient whether
it's treating people right courteous
whatever it may be so you have to
know the basics yep
You said PTs need to bring value in
the organization.
I say it.
Not just PTs, everyone.
Sure.
Right.
I say understand what game you're playing.
If you want more output,
you got to understand which inputs lead to
more output the most efficient way, right?
Yep.
How would you explain to a new grad
right now who defines that value?
What's the best way to get an alignment?
Sounds like it's sports, not coach,
but owner.
What's the best way to do that?
Well, value is evaluated by everyone,
right?
So as you go to a course or
you want to spend time with another
therapist,
was it worth the value of your time,
right?
When your patients are being treated by
you,
I'm going to make subsequent appointments
because you provide value.
I'm getting better.
When the patient goes back to their
referring physician and you get nothing
but praises as a clinician and no
complaints,
that physician's gonna send you more
patients.
You provided value, right?
They don't have to deal with headaches.
Their patients are having good outcomes.
Now the patients are happy.
They're sending you their families and
friends.
The doctors are happy.
They talk about you.
So they themselves,
as well as their peers in the physician
group, start sending you patients.
And now the ownership says, well,
wait a minute.
You do your notes on time.
You do what I ask.
you have great outcomes, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera.
I'm gonna, you know,
I'm gonna promote you.
You deserve a raise.
I'm gonna make you a junior partner,
whatever it is.
And they see you as providing value.
So providing value,
goes across the board, right?
But it starts with yourself.
If I want to provide value,
what are the things that are necessary for
me to accomplish so that I increase my
worth, my value?
as a general term,
if you know what I'm saying.
And that's what I mean when I say
no one gets rewarded for not bringing
value.
Right.
If you can't get your notes on time,
if your patients are always canceling,
if the doctors are always complaining
about you,
not only are you not going to get
any of the rewards,
you're probably not going to have a job.
Right.
So were there any things that you could
spot on an interview that
you know,
professional physical therapy for,
you know, more than two decades,
co-founder, CEO, CCO,
you've pretty much done it all.
Were there things you looked for?
Was there a favorite interview question
when you couldn't see them in the clinic,
when you were trying to evaluate?
Because that's a gamble.
Like when you're hiring someone,
that's a risk and you're hoping it pays
off.
Were there things that you looked for?
Yeah, I just like,
I would want to know what people's desires
are, what their goals are.
You know, you ask them,
He'll ask some questions about, you know,
work ethic, things like that.
They're always going to give you the right
answers.
I mean,
a couple of things that stand out,
you know, my, one of my co-founders,
he used to like the question of if
you were a twin,
why should I hire you?
And one time versus your twin.
And one time the candidate looked at me
and said, well, as a matter of fact,
I am a twin and this is why
you should hire me.
And then I've had a person where, um,
They pulled up their chair to the desk,
leaned forward like this, and said to me,
I need to know how I'm going to
make partner.
So I've had that end of it too.
And you're not even hired yet,
and you're asking me how you're going to
make partner.
So everything in between.
So I just think part of it is
a gut feeling through experience.
A lot of it is through the
recommendations, as you know.
The older you get,
the smaller the world gets.
And so the phone calls you make are
probably maybe someone you sat next to in
high school or in PT school or worked
with or speak at conferences with or
whatever.
And they're going to be pretty honest with
you with regards to the recommendation
they made for this individual who's now a
candidate for a position in your company.
And so I put a lot on that
as well.
yeah there's a line it's not what you
know it's who you know and i say
kinda it's not what you know it's not
just who you know it's what those people
will say about what do they know about
you so just being known that's not that
doesn't solve the problem because that
person is going to ask another question
would you hire this person you know in
six months am i going to be happy
about this that's what you want to
understand what that person knows yeah
yeah yeah
Just being known.
Listen,
I think we're both in agreement here.
Reimbursement will likely not improve.
I would say act as if it's not
going to improve.
Great.
Now what are you going to do about
it?
Pretend.
And if it does, great.
Pretend it's not.
Where do you see the realistic levers of
change?
Where are the best levers to pull to
get the most output in twenty twenty six
as we go forward?
Well,
um charlie francis is a sprint coach and
i always go back to strength and
conditioning and sports and stuff because
i really like that as well as i
love therapy don't get me wrong but um
i wish i spent more personal time with
charlie but i got to know charlie and
i'm very good friends with his protege a
guy named derek hansen and charlie's big
thing if you first met charlie he could
frustrate you we we consulted together
with with another friend of mine alvin
meal with the nfl pro team for a
while and you'd ask charlie a question and
he'd say well it depends
And what all Charlie was saying was I
need more specifics, right?
And so what I'm saying to you with
reimbursements, it depends.
So let's take an individual private
practice.
And I don't wanna get into the politics
of hospital versus corporate versus
private practice.
Everyone has its benefits,
everyone has its disadvantages, okay?
So you go to a single private practice,
they're trying to survive, right?
They have a single,
and they have to either decide,
I'm going to take this rate or I'm
not going to take this rate.
I'm going to go out of network, right?
And I'll make more money.
And that may be true,
but if the F out of network benefits
end, if you want to get acquired,
probably someone by a corporate entity or
something,
they're probably not going to take you
because they want you to be in network.
They don't want to take a chance on
the other networks changing and all those
types of things.
So you survive that way.
when you're a corporate entity,
and if you've been following the field,
a lot of companies are partnering,
I'm not saying being acquired by a lot
of companies are partnering with hospital
institutions,
like just yesterday sort of thing where
NYU New York partnered with us physical
therapy.
And so with us,
We have a partnership too with a hospital
system, but what we did was,
and you've read a little bit of what
I put on paper,
we established an educational curriculum
that essentially
that you went through.
And then we also offer an OCS residency
and a manual therapy and fellowship.
And in our curriculum, what we look at,
we hired an outside entity for an outcome
company to look at our results so that
we couldn't fudge the numbers, right?
Cause it's in-house who knows what may
happen on the data, right?
And any entity, any organization,
I hope everybody's honest,
but it's not always the case.
And so as our outcomes improved, right?
And we covered the body, foot, ankle,
up to the cervical spine.
So if we had therapists that, let's say,
had trouble,
low outcomes on cervical spine,
we'd recommend they needed more work on
cervical spine.
If they had a problem with knee,
they'd have to take more work in knee
through our curriculum.
And we also provide monies for outside
education as well for other entities.
And so if the outcomes were not improving,
we had to look at ourselves saying, well,
we're not teaching the right things,
right?
So it was a checks and balances system.
Now everyone says they give good care and
they probably do.
All right.
Let's just say, how do you prove it?
Right.
How do you prove it?
So we had outcomes and we went to
payers and some payers agreed since you're
more effective and you're more efficient
and also the advantage of having a larger
footprint,
because we didn't have to worry about
people, where they were going, et cetera,
we saw.
We were able to negotiate better rates
than maybe the single practice,
standing practice,
single individual standing practice.
So if we...
are able to negotiate higher rates,
just like other PT companies can,
then essentially,
you have more money not only for business
operations,
but salaries and those types of things,
right?
So you give me the scenario
And I'll say, yes, you're right.
We're going to have a problem with rates.
Now, is anybody happy with their rate?
No.
Even parts of the country.
Look at parts of the country.
Workman's comp is paid unbelievably in
certain parts of the country and terrible
in other parts of the country.
Why is that?
you know, it depends,
depends where you live,
what your situation, et cetera.
Now, generally, yes, I agree with you.
Rates are not going to go up.
Right.
So what are you going to do as
an individual private practitioner,
meaning the clinician,
the new grad clinician or the young
therapist to create the value that we
previously discussed to put yourself in a
situation so that
You have the professional and financial
desires.
You achieve those things that you reach
for.
This morning,
someone responded on a LinkedIn to me,
a gentleman saying he works five jobs and
there is opportunity in the profession to
make more money.
Okay.
That's great.
I commend your work ethic.
Twenty years from now,
you're not going to want to work five
jobs.
You're not going to physically be able to
work five jobs.
So it's not just working the five jobs
to make extra income.
How are those five jobs helping you in
your plan to
so that if you want to be a
hospital administrator,
if you want to be meeting a CEO,
vice president, COO, whatever it may be,
how does that plan help you achieve that,
help you achieve a partnership in a
private practice that you're already
working in,
help you open up your own private
practice,
help you work for an insurance company on
the other side of the coin,
help you to become the director of a
PT program at an institution or a college,
whether it's a hospital or college.
How do those five jobs help you achieve
that thing?
So, twenty years down the road,
ten years down the road,
you're working one job and you've attained
the professional success and the financial
success you desire.
Or you work forty hours a week and
there's nothing wrong with this.
Now everybody could be a chief.
You need Indians too.
You work forty hours a week.
You go to work, you do your job,
and you go home.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
But you can't complain that you don't have
the rewards of someone who has gone over
and beyond when you've just stated with an
average job and remained in that capacity,
so to speak.
An average work week, not an average job.
I think it's a great profession.
But there's plenty of opportunity out
there.
People are still getting hurt.
I'm part of the baby boom.
I'm on the tail end of the baby
boom.
We're getting older.
We're still staying.
There's going to be plenty of business out
there.
So how are you going to take advantage
of success in regards to this business?
that's going to be available.
It's viable.
And I'm not disagreeing with Larry.
Yeah, it cost me this,
it cost me that.
That's business.
That's once you're a business owner or
you're the CEO of a company or the
COO or CFO of a company.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about how are you going to
get to that point?
Understood.
All right.
We have a tradition on the show, Rob.
It's called the parting shot.
This is The Parting Shot.
One last mic drop moment.
No pressure.
Just your legacy on the line.
No pressure.
No pressure whatsoever.
I do want to say thanks to Empower
EMR.
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if it slows you down,
Empower gives you speed, clean workflows,
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Find them online and kick the tires at
empoweremr.com.
It's empoweremr.com.
So the parting shot is all up to
you.
could be a final soapbox statement,
mic drop moment, quote from somebody,
anything you want.
What do you want to leave people as
we wrap up?
Um, I have a, uh,
I have a relationship with, um,
Hall of Fame football coach,
Bill Parcells.
And, uh,
I've known him through years and he really
was instrumental, not only in, um,
And when I worked in business,
but also when I was in the NFL,
I would call him to speak to him
often enough.
And he has,
he has a number of sayings and as
a person, not only is he very intelligent,
but he's probably one of the wisest men
I've ever met.
And he has a saying,
there's a big difference between routine
and commitment.
And, uh, that is very true.
I mean,
you could go to your job and do
the same thing and go home,
like I said.
or you could be committed to your career
and decide that I'm going to do whatever
it takes.
And everybody,
that's a different level of commitment.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm gonna do whatever it takes for me
to put myself in the position that I
wanna be in.
So routine versus commitment.
Well said.
We'll put the link in the show notes
for people to connect with Rob on
LinkedIn.
Thanks for the time and sharing the
insight.
Thanks for having me.
A couple of decades in the profession,
man.
This is great.
Yep.
I appreciate it.
That's it for this one,
but we're just getting warmed up.
Smash follow, send it to a friend,
or crank up the next episode.
Want to go deeper?
Hit us at pgpodcast.com.
Yeah.
Or find us on YouTube and socials at
PTPyteCast.
And legally, none of this was advice.
It's for entertainment purposes only.
See, Keith?
We read the script.
Happy now?