WEBVTT 00:00:00.309 --> 00:00:02.270 You're listening to the PT Pinecast, 00:00:02.391 --> 00:00:04.411 where smart people in healthcare come to 00:00:04.451 --> 00:00:05.171 make noise. 00:00:05.673 --> 00:00:06.793 Here's your host, Jimmy McKay. 00:00:06.892 --> 00:00:12.196 All right, thanks to VoiceOverGuy. 00:00:12.657 --> 00:00:14.098 Big thanks to Empower EMR. 00:00:14.137 --> 00:00:15.618 If your clinic is stuck in an EMR 00:00:15.638 --> 00:00:18.120 that slows you down, that sucks. 00:00:19.402 --> 00:00:20.181 But that's also your fault, 00:00:20.202 --> 00:00:21.042 because you can get out of that. 00:00:21.483 --> 00:00:23.743 It's like you're married to your EMR. 00:00:23.763 --> 00:00:24.925 You can actually even get out of that. 00:00:25.464 --> 00:00:27.306 Empower EMR gives you speed, 00:00:28.027 --> 00:00:30.109 Clean workflows and features PTs actually 00:00:30.228 --> 00:00:30.708 asked for. 00:00:31.309 --> 00:00:32.990 Just making the template a different color 00:00:33.070 --> 00:00:33.612 is nice, 00:00:33.652 --> 00:00:35.372 but I want to make it easier. 00:00:35.472 --> 00:00:36.994 Better notes, faster documentation, 00:00:37.034 --> 00:00:37.854 smoother operations, 00:00:38.036 --> 00:00:39.877 all wrapped up in customer support that 00:00:39.896 --> 00:00:40.597 doesn't ghost you. 00:00:40.997 --> 00:00:42.518 Because when something breaks, 00:00:42.658 --> 00:00:43.119 and it will, 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:44.420 you want to make sure that someone's going 00:00:44.441 --> 00:00:45.862 to help you get out of it and 00:00:45.962 --> 00:00:46.402 unbreak it. 00:00:46.883 --> 00:00:48.143 EmpowerEMR.com. 00:00:48.164 --> 00:00:51.587 That is EmpowerEMR.com. 00:00:51.786 --> 00:00:52.648 All right. 00:00:53.789 --> 00:00:54.789 Let's talk about today's guest. 00:00:55.070 --> 00:00:55.630 Started as a PT. 00:00:56.655 --> 00:00:58.557 treating complex pelvic and jaw cases. 00:00:58.777 --> 00:00:59.457 She still does that. 00:00:59.738 --> 00:01:00.359 But today, 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:04.001 she's redesigning entire clinic cultures. 00:01:04.081 --> 00:01:05.703 That's a different kind of treatment from 00:01:05.823 --> 00:01:07.724 frontline resilience to executive 00:01:07.765 --> 00:01:08.766 leadership development, 00:01:09.227 --> 00:01:10.867 whether she's leading DEI programs, 00:01:10.908 --> 00:01:12.289 improving communication systems, 00:01:12.448 --> 00:01:14.710 or making lunch breaks a reality again in 00:01:14.771 --> 00:01:15.331 clinical care. 00:01:16.111 --> 00:01:18.213 She's proving that healthcare doesn't have 00:01:18.334 --> 00:01:19.375 to be this broken. 00:01:19.655 --> 00:01:21.215 Yes, one person is doing all this. 00:01:22.137 --> 00:01:24.278 uh she's helping teams connect with their 00:01:24.317 --> 00:01:26.719 purpose and each other uh let's bring in 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:29.460 today's guest holly cunningham holly 00:01:29.540 --> 00:01:31.022 welcome to the show poof and there you 00:01:31.081 --> 00:01:36.924 are hello all that's you i yeah i 00:01:36.965 --> 00:01:39.885 mean obviously we have people in how about 00:01:39.906 --> 00:01:41.787 we can delegate i just meant but what 00:01:41.846 --> 00:01:43.487 i mean is like that's wide you're doing 00:01:43.528 --> 00:01:45.930 a lot of things and i love it 00:01:46.230 --> 00:01:49.090 i love the multitude of my every day 00:01:49.311 --> 00:01:50.272 it's fantastic 00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:52.079 So we'll get into some of the specifics, 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.240 but what I like people who went in 00:01:55.301 --> 00:01:57.200 a door that lots of other people go 00:01:57.240 --> 00:01:57.600 into. 00:01:57.740 --> 00:01:58.481 And then when they're there, 00:01:58.501 --> 00:01:59.822 they sort of make a left turn like 00:01:59.861 --> 00:02:00.081 me. 00:02:00.201 --> 00:02:02.121 Like I do some, I'm still a PT. 00:02:02.162 --> 00:02:03.043 I swear I had the license. 00:02:03.102 --> 00:02:04.242 I got the degree somewhere, 00:02:04.822 --> 00:02:05.742 but I'm doing something different. 00:02:06.082 --> 00:02:07.222 At what point were you like, 00:02:07.703 --> 00:02:09.383 at what point and why were you like, 00:02:09.443 --> 00:02:09.883 Hey, 00:02:10.524 --> 00:02:11.764 I'd be a good fit for doing this 00:02:11.943 --> 00:02:12.723 other stuff. 00:02:13.724 --> 00:02:15.004 And how'd that, how'd that go? 00:02:15.861 --> 00:02:16.741 Great question. 00:02:16.762 --> 00:02:18.562 So I actually took a I call it 00:02:18.603 --> 00:02:19.263 my sabbatical. 00:02:20.282 --> 00:02:21.682 I took like a year and a half 00:02:21.742 --> 00:02:22.463 in Michigan. 00:02:22.623 --> 00:02:24.704 I am in Colorado, 00:02:24.723 --> 00:02:25.903 but I was living in Michigan for a 00:02:25.924 --> 00:02:26.745 year and a half and I was in 00:02:26.764 --> 00:02:27.844 a slightly different setting. 00:02:27.905 --> 00:02:29.425 I was kind of like bouncing around and 00:02:29.465 --> 00:02:33.286 I noticed how many people that I worked 00:02:33.325 --> 00:02:35.067 with were so 00:02:36.621 --> 00:02:37.722 Burntown's not the right word. 00:02:37.822 --> 00:02:40.003 They were just so much less passionate. 00:02:40.084 --> 00:02:41.366 And they had been in the field for 00:02:41.466 --> 00:02:42.026 so long. 00:02:42.145 --> 00:02:44.329 And Michigan wasn't even that crazy of a 00:02:44.389 --> 00:02:45.349 place to treat in. 00:02:45.830 --> 00:02:48.592 They weren't asking people to double book. 00:02:48.633 --> 00:02:49.614 They weren't doing all these things 00:02:49.633 --> 00:02:50.854 because the reimbursement's a little 00:02:50.895 --> 00:02:51.795 better than Colorado. 00:02:53.356 --> 00:02:54.837 But I just noticed the lack of passion 00:02:54.877 --> 00:02:56.358 and it wasn't that they weren't taking 00:02:56.397 --> 00:02:58.419 continuing education, anything like that. 00:02:58.438 --> 00:03:00.038 And I was trying to figure out what 00:03:00.058 --> 00:03:00.718 was going on. 00:03:01.519 --> 00:03:05.121 And I started talking to all of the 00:03:05.161 --> 00:03:08.001 various higher ups that I worked with in 00:03:08.020 --> 00:03:09.081 the various settings. 00:03:09.181 --> 00:03:12.823 So this was between outpatient hospital 00:03:12.962 --> 00:03:13.122 staff. 00:03:14.324 --> 00:03:15.725 IPR, all those things, 00:03:16.568 --> 00:03:18.610 and trying to figure out what the 00:03:18.631 --> 00:03:19.372 disconnect was. 00:03:19.412 --> 00:03:22.417 And a lot of them hadn't treated patients 00:03:22.758 --> 00:03:22.918 in... 00:03:24.487 --> 00:03:27.210 decades and they couldn't figure out how 00:03:27.250 --> 00:03:29.891 to connect with their employees in order 00:03:29.931 --> 00:03:31.872 to make them feel like their every day 00:03:31.893 --> 00:03:32.554 was worthwhile. 00:03:32.633 --> 00:03:35.355 Like the abusive patient or the abusive 00:03:35.695 --> 00:03:39.919 family of the patient or the non-compliant 00:03:39.959 --> 00:03:41.460 patient and outpatient or whatever it may 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:41.781 be, 00:03:42.420 --> 00:03:45.763 they couldn't connect with their staff PTs 00:03:45.824 --> 00:03:47.564 in order to make the staff PTs feel 00:03:47.585 --> 00:03:48.866 like their day was okay. 00:03:50.366 --> 00:03:51.867 And so we started coming up with 00:03:51.888 --> 00:03:53.710 strategies and I really liked it, 00:03:53.750 --> 00:03:56.111 but there was no space really in those 00:03:56.132 --> 00:03:58.073 settings for me to connect all of them 00:03:58.092 --> 00:03:59.193 and continue what I was doing. 00:03:59.995 --> 00:04:02.336 And then I spoke with the company that 00:04:02.356 --> 00:04:04.258 I had worked for in Colorado and I 00:04:04.337 --> 00:04:04.758 missed them. 00:04:05.438 --> 00:04:06.419 I was thinking about coming back to 00:04:06.438 --> 00:04:08.539 Colorado and I was like kind of ready 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.000 and especially ready for better weather 00:04:11.681 --> 00:04:13.901 and talk to them about what my goals 00:04:13.941 --> 00:04:14.241 were. 00:04:14.260 --> 00:04:14.841 And I was like, 00:04:14.901 --> 00:04:16.362 I think this is really valuable because 00:04:16.382 --> 00:04:17.581 you're going to improve your retention 00:04:17.661 --> 00:04:18.002 rate, 00:04:18.362 --> 00:04:19.543 your quality of care is going to go 00:04:19.663 --> 00:04:20.742 up, all that. 00:04:21.302 --> 00:04:23.303 And they came back to me and they 00:04:23.324 --> 00:04:23.983 were like, let's do it. 00:04:24.584 --> 00:04:25.843 So I came back in twenty, 00:04:25.884 --> 00:04:28.545 twenty three and basically 00:04:29.204 --> 00:04:32.026 have had a hybrid role as the, 00:04:32.286 --> 00:04:34.466 as focusing on the employee experience, 00:04:34.507 --> 00:04:35.906 leadership development, all of that. 00:04:36.406 --> 00:04:37.468 And then on top of that, 00:04:37.548 --> 00:04:40.608 treating patients and managing clinics. 00:04:40.788 --> 00:04:43.509 So it was nice because I know it 00:04:43.528 --> 00:04:44.089 sounds like a lot, 00:04:44.149 --> 00:04:45.569 but it's nice because it all kind of 00:04:45.709 --> 00:04:46.490 fits together. 00:04:47.831 --> 00:04:48.831 Like I get to work on my own 00:04:48.870 --> 00:04:50.791 resiliency while also helping other 00:04:50.812 --> 00:04:51.252 people. 00:04:51.372 --> 00:04:52.012 I get to 00:04:52.978 --> 00:04:56.300 help run clinics in a more efficient way 00:04:56.380 --> 00:04:59.603 that drops how much clinicians have to do 00:04:59.663 --> 00:05:02.665 in order to meet a productivity that keeps 00:05:02.685 --> 00:05:03.466 the doors open. 00:05:03.487 --> 00:05:06.088 It keeps the higher ups happy, 00:05:06.428 --> 00:05:07.170 all of those things. 00:05:07.470 --> 00:05:09.071 So it fits hand in hand. 00:05:09.732 --> 00:05:10.331 Plus you don't lose, 00:05:11.112 --> 00:05:12.233 you don't fall into the trap 00:05:13.427 --> 00:05:15.209 you just described which is you're still 00:05:15.389 --> 00:05:18.432 doing it even in a reduced amount of 00:05:18.492 --> 00:05:20.574 hours or interactions you're still doing 00:05:20.613 --> 00:05:23.035 the thing i'm curious did the higher-ups 00:05:23.074 --> 00:05:24.956 who were losing connection and not able to 00:05:24.997 --> 00:05:26.598 relate did they try pizza parties because 00:05:26.617 --> 00:05:27.798 a lot of times in our profession we 00:05:27.819 --> 00:05:30.081 love people maybe two pizza parties so 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.942 many pizza parties literally like a 00:05:32.002 --> 00:05:33.764 monthly pizza party they're like we're 00:05:33.923 --> 00:05:35.444 feeding them i don't understand what's 00:05:35.485 --> 00:05:38.586 happening i'm like well food is great like 00:05:38.607 --> 00:05:40.249 we need the calories to have the energy 00:05:40.269 --> 00:05:41.529 to help these people but like 00:05:42.209 --> 00:05:44.211 you're not really you know making them 00:05:44.252 --> 00:05:47.173 feel valued you're not reminding them that 00:05:47.213 --> 00:05:50.235 like what they're doing is um incredible 00:05:50.377 --> 00:05:52.557 like absolutely life-changing for people 00:05:52.757 --> 00:05:52.899 so yeah 00:05:53.973 --> 00:05:54.894 So let me start with this. 00:05:54.954 --> 00:05:56.675 You've seen the system from both sides, 00:05:56.995 --> 00:05:58.956 patient care and people ops, 00:05:58.975 --> 00:05:59.757 and you still do that. 00:06:00.177 --> 00:06:03.298 What's the one thing we still get wrong 00:06:03.559 --> 00:06:06.721 when it comes to putting those things 00:06:06.761 --> 00:06:07.201 together? 00:06:08.021 --> 00:06:09.963 What's still the disconnect or the big 00:06:10.223 --> 00:06:11.103 misconception? 00:06:12.185 --> 00:06:14.826 I always say most communication breakdowns 00:06:15.906 --> 00:06:18.168 are because of misaligned expectations. 00:06:18.269 --> 00:06:19.589 I expect A, but I got... 00:06:20.451 --> 00:06:23.132 cue and that's not good so i'm angry 00:06:23.312 --> 00:06:26.894 so what what do we still get wrong 00:06:27.194 --> 00:06:31.476 um remembering people's values so it is 00:06:31.516 --> 00:06:33.497 that disconnect so like if i go and 00:06:33.557 --> 00:06:35.259 talk to one of my staff physical 00:06:35.278 --> 00:06:38.480 therapists and i come at them from purely 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:41.242 a if you don't see this many patients 00:06:41.882 --> 00:06:43.502 you're not going to make enough money for 00:06:43.523 --> 00:06:45.103 the company so our doors are not going 00:06:45.144 --> 00:06:45.644 to stay open 00:06:47.300 --> 00:06:48.940 I'm threatening their livelihood, right? 00:06:49.180 --> 00:06:52.221 But I'm not connecting to what they value 00:06:52.262 --> 00:06:52.762 the most. 00:06:53.422 --> 00:06:54.182 That person, 00:06:54.201 --> 00:06:58.023 that individual might value their PTO, 00:06:58.062 --> 00:06:59.403 their time off to go see their family 00:06:59.423 --> 00:07:00.283 in a different state. 00:07:00.603 --> 00:07:02.685 They might value money. 00:07:02.704 --> 00:07:03.625 Most people do. 00:07:03.644 --> 00:07:08.187 They might value quality of care and 00:07:08.247 --> 00:07:09.247 seeing more patients. 00:07:09.447 --> 00:07:12.807 That's why they got into PT. 00:07:12.848 --> 00:07:14.869 So if I come at them with a 00:07:14.908 --> 00:07:15.709 conversation of, 00:07:16.848 --> 00:07:20.329 hey your patients are starting to fall off 00:07:20.350 --> 00:07:22.610 for where you know our empty our schedule 00:07:22.629 --> 00:07:24.411 is pretty empty what's like asking them 00:07:24.430 --> 00:07:25.471 questions what's going on but then 00:07:25.511 --> 00:07:27.750 connecting it back to hey like if you 00:07:27.911 --> 00:07:30.932 hit x numbers you're gonna get x amount 00:07:30.951 --> 00:07:32.651 of more pto you're gonna be able to 00:07:32.672 --> 00:07:34.793 travel more or you're gonna make x amount 00:07:34.812 --> 00:07:36.473 of bonus you're gonna make more money 00:07:36.833 --> 00:07:38.512 those kinds of things so so connecting it 00:07:38.533 --> 00:07:40.113 to the individual is what i've noticed is 00:07:40.134 --> 00:07:40.634 that's where 00:07:42.129 --> 00:07:43.350 people lose that. 00:07:43.391 --> 00:07:45.451 Like they think they just need to speak 00:07:45.492 --> 00:07:47.692 to the general public, but in reality, 00:07:47.713 --> 00:07:49.353 you have to speak to the individual. 00:07:49.774 --> 00:07:51.194 Otherwise you're just going to go right 00:07:51.233 --> 00:07:51.694 over their head. 00:07:51.935 --> 00:07:53.214 If we say in communications, 00:07:53.235 --> 00:07:54.355 when you try to talk to everybody, 00:07:54.375 --> 00:07:55.896 you talk to no one, right? 00:07:55.915 --> 00:07:56.237 Right. 00:07:56.257 --> 00:07:57.476 Which is not a product for everybody. 00:07:58.858 --> 00:07:59.197 I don't know. 00:07:59.317 --> 00:08:01.459 Ice cream and pizza already have the world 00:08:01.738 --> 00:08:01.939 sort of, 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:03.879 that's everybody except the lactose 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:04.360 intolerant. 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:04.961 Those people are out. 00:08:06.081 --> 00:08:07.541 But if you can, right. 00:08:07.961 --> 00:08:09.242 So I'll bring this up. 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:12.182 When I worked at a pretty large 00:08:12.242 --> 00:08:13.843 multi-state clinic, we focused on, 00:08:13.903 --> 00:08:15.704 you said, remembering their values. 00:08:16.245 --> 00:08:18.067 So we brought in this big old fancy 00:08:18.108 --> 00:08:20.470 company, paid them, I don't know how much, 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:21.350 that's about my pay grade, 00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:22.050 paid them a lot of money. 00:08:22.331 --> 00:08:24.273 And they interviewed a lot of people 00:08:24.774 --> 00:08:25.975 across different roles, 00:08:26.095 --> 00:08:27.817 different geographic places, 00:08:27.857 --> 00:08:28.757 different parts in their career. 00:08:28.778 --> 00:08:30.559 They got a good sampling, cross sample. 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:32.600 And they came back and they said, hey, 00:08:32.620 --> 00:08:32.880 listen, 00:08:34.078 --> 00:08:36.302 People come here and stay here for one 00:08:36.461 --> 00:08:37.403 of three reasons. 00:08:37.764 --> 00:08:39.645 It's probably a little bit of all three, 00:08:39.826 --> 00:08:41.948 but you need to talk to each of 00:08:41.969 --> 00:08:45.133 these archetypes or you're going to miss. 00:08:45.533 --> 00:08:47.375 And the good part was, of course, 00:08:47.395 --> 00:08:49.038 because we love in marketing when they all 00:08:49.317 --> 00:08:50.139 have alliteration. 00:08:50.178 --> 00:08:51.360 So these all began with the letter C. 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:55.581 And the three C's were craft, cause, 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:56.221 and community. 00:08:57.142 --> 00:08:59.243 And at first people were like, no, no, 00:08:59.263 --> 00:08:59.403 no. 00:08:59.443 --> 00:09:01.705 And when you drill down, craft meant like, 00:09:01.865 --> 00:09:05.106 I'm here to be the best PT, PTA, 00:09:05.246 --> 00:09:08.389 OT, speech therapist, athletic. 00:09:08.708 --> 00:09:10.490 I'm here because I am super PT. 00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:11.549 I go to conferences. 00:09:11.650 --> 00:09:13.270 I read, I eat, I sleep, I breathe. 00:09:13.390 --> 00:09:13.792 I'm a PT. 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.201 cause would be what's the whole 00:09:17.260 --> 00:09:19.822 organization doing we're here to protect 00:09:19.903 --> 00:09:21.443 athletes we're here to protect old people 00:09:21.484 --> 00:09:23.384 we're here to you know make babies better 00:09:23.764 --> 00:09:25.405 that's what the mission of the group the 00:09:25.485 --> 00:09:27.647 boat which what boat am i on am 00:09:27.726 --> 00:09:29.427 i the best craftsman would be like am 00:09:29.489 --> 00:09:32.490 i the best rower the person who cares 00:09:32.509 --> 00:09:35.011 about uh cause would be like where's the 00:09:35.052 --> 00:09:37.192 boat going and then community is like 00:09:37.572 --> 00:09:38.894 what's the vibe of the people on the 00:09:38.933 --> 00:09:40.235 boat is this a good party or a 00:09:40.254 --> 00:09:41.995 bad party now we all want 00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:44.504 generally a little bit of all three, 00:09:45.006 --> 00:09:46.169 but there was, they were like, 00:09:46.210 --> 00:09:47.774 you need to make sure there's a little 00:09:47.833 --> 00:09:49.217 bit of, if you're making a meal, 00:09:49.258 --> 00:09:51.101 if you're making a new program, um, 00:09:52.129 --> 00:09:53.630 doing a webinar, something, 00:09:53.890 --> 00:09:55.351 there needs to be a little something, 00:09:55.371 --> 00:09:57.514 a little seasoning from each one of those 00:09:57.594 --> 00:09:58.914 jars in it. 00:09:59.434 --> 00:10:01.316 Or the person who values that the most 00:10:01.375 --> 00:10:02.277 is like, I don't get it. 00:10:02.817 --> 00:10:03.498 Why is this for me? 00:10:03.717 --> 00:10:05.438 Notice I didn't say at any point, 00:10:06.038 --> 00:10:07.519 people are there for a pizza party. 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:08.301 That's not why they're there. 00:10:08.341 --> 00:10:09.302 They could buy their own pizza. 00:10:09.381 --> 00:10:10.642 I will buy my own pizza. 00:10:10.923 --> 00:10:11.643 I don't need you to do that. 00:10:11.663 --> 00:10:12.823 I need you to do the other things 00:10:13.104 --> 00:10:14.024 that I can't do. 00:10:14.524 --> 00:10:14.985 at home. 00:10:15.345 --> 00:10:17.365 So it sounds like we're speaking the same 00:10:17.405 --> 00:10:18.025 language there too, 00:10:18.066 --> 00:10:20.485 which is making sure you understand the 00:10:20.547 --> 00:10:22.167 who and their values. 00:10:22.647 --> 00:10:26.748 Now, you've said you've had patients, 00:10:26.807 --> 00:10:27.548 lots of patients, 00:10:28.248 --> 00:10:30.528 tell you that you were the first person 00:10:31.349 --> 00:10:33.950 to validate their experience as a 00:10:33.990 --> 00:10:34.490 clinician. 00:10:36.288 --> 00:10:39.110 I want you to use that situation to 00:10:39.150 --> 00:10:40.011 talk about the system. 00:10:40.292 --> 00:10:42.673 What's that say about our system if you 00:10:42.693 --> 00:10:44.275 were the first person to validate their 00:10:44.316 --> 00:10:47.577 experience and they've probably had lots 00:10:47.597 --> 00:10:48.940 of interactions with their clinicians 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:49.639 before that? 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:50.421 This is sad. 00:10:51.020 --> 00:10:52.442 This is a canary in a coal mine, 00:10:52.763 --> 00:10:52.962 right? 00:10:54.408 --> 00:10:56.690 It is, you're right, it is incredibly sad. 00:10:56.889 --> 00:10:59.130 It makes me incredibly frustrated with our 00:10:59.171 --> 00:11:02.413 system because I'm nowhere near the best 00:11:02.452 --> 00:11:04.634 clinician out there at all. 00:11:05.214 --> 00:11:07.975 But what I think that people forget is 00:11:08.014 --> 00:11:10.316 that patients are people and all you have 00:11:10.355 --> 00:11:11.716 to do is listen to them. 00:11:12.437 --> 00:11:14.857 And all you have to do is recognize 00:11:14.878 --> 00:11:16.418 that there is truth in what they're 00:11:16.458 --> 00:11:16.999 telling you. 00:11:18.111 --> 00:11:19.913 It may not be everything because they 00:11:19.953 --> 00:11:20.975 don't know everything. 00:11:21.375 --> 00:11:22.317 We don't know everything. 00:11:22.638 --> 00:11:25.260 But what they're saying is valid. 00:11:25.721 --> 00:11:27.123 And this is true for employees, too. 00:11:27.163 --> 00:11:30.267 So I use this technique for everybody. 00:11:32.532 --> 00:11:35.232 I think with our health care system, 00:11:35.932 --> 00:11:38.234 one of the things that is broken, 00:11:38.494 --> 00:11:40.955 and this is true across every type of 00:11:41.155 --> 00:11:44.777 MD specialist, every type of surgeon, PT, 00:11:45.037 --> 00:11:45.437 whatever, 00:11:45.736 --> 00:11:47.298 any type of health care provider, 00:11:47.798 --> 00:11:50.399 is that when you go to school, 00:11:50.499 --> 00:11:53.100 there are so few programs that tell you 00:11:53.139 --> 00:11:54.461 to listen first. 00:11:55.389 --> 00:11:58.270 They are told to, you know, 00:11:58.551 --> 00:12:00.850 know what these symptoms added up should 00:12:00.990 --> 00:12:01.451 equal. 00:12:01.510 --> 00:12:04.231 They are told that this if this test 00:12:04.251 --> 00:12:05.231 comes back negative, 00:12:05.272 --> 00:12:06.753 then it's not this disease, you know, 00:12:06.773 --> 00:12:07.293 blah, blah, blah. 00:12:07.692 --> 00:12:10.234 But we are not told to sit there, 00:12:10.374 --> 00:12:11.433 look at the patient, 00:12:11.774 --> 00:12:13.514 see them in front of us and listen 00:12:13.553 --> 00:12:14.455 to what they're saying. 00:12:15.014 --> 00:12:17.774 And I think that would change if those 00:12:17.794 --> 00:12:19.096 programs started doing that. 00:12:19.796 --> 00:12:21.135 Our health care system would change 00:12:21.176 --> 00:12:23.336 drastically. 00:12:23.496 --> 00:12:24.136 Scary, isn't it? 00:12:24.948 --> 00:12:26.850 terrifying because it doesn't cost doesn't 00:12:26.870 --> 00:12:29.552 like it costs a whole lot it costs 00:12:29.892 --> 00:12:32.394 nothing they can record it like it can 00:12:32.653 --> 00:12:35.275 it can cost zero money it can cost 00:12:35.375 --> 00:12:38.798 zero a lifetime like face to face like 00:12:39.119 --> 00:12:41.559 you can still be productive and efficient 00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:44.822 it takes no no effort to sit there 00:12:44.863 --> 00:12:45.263 and listen 00:12:45.881 --> 00:12:46.241 Wild. 00:12:46.261 --> 00:12:48.503 It is crazy. 00:12:48.602 --> 00:12:51.482 As somebody who's now leading, I mean, 00:12:52.364 --> 00:12:54.323 is this employee experience? 00:12:54.423 --> 00:12:55.283 Well, first of all, 00:12:55.303 --> 00:12:55.965 what do you call it? 00:12:56.144 --> 00:12:57.544 Is it employee experience? 00:12:57.565 --> 00:12:58.865 Is that like, yeah, okay. 00:12:58.904 --> 00:13:00.265 I mean, just people ops. 00:13:00.306 --> 00:13:00.926 Just fancy. 00:13:01.186 --> 00:13:01.725 People ops. 00:13:01.765 --> 00:13:04.246 That's like the tech, 00:13:04.346 --> 00:13:05.187 the business side of it. 00:13:05.226 --> 00:13:06.927 But I'll call it employee clinician 00:13:06.947 --> 00:13:07.326 experience. 00:13:07.687 --> 00:13:08.868 As someone now who's leading that, 00:13:09.826 --> 00:13:11.847 What are the hidden signals that a 00:13:11.927 --> 00:13:13.869 clinical team or a member of the team 00:13:14.629 --> 00:13:17.610 is burning out before they even realize 00:13:17.669 --> 00:13:17.769 it? 00:13:18.250 --> 00:13:19.169 My dad was a fireman. 00:13:19.451 --> 00:13:19.870 He's like, 00:13:19.890 --> 00:13:21.030 this is how you put a fire out. 00:13:21.471 --> 00:13:22.491 He's like, the best thing to do, 00:13:23.331 --> 00:13:24.392 make sure the fire don't start. 00:13:24.491 --> 00:13:25.952 Like that is prevention, right? 00:13:26.092 --> 00:13:28.053 So what are some of the things that 00:13:28.094 --> 00:13:29.734 people could look at in their own teams 00:13:29.774 --> 00:13:33.176 and go, okay, before this fire starts, 00:13:33.355 --> 00:13:34.355 at least I know that there's something 00:13:34.395 --> 00:13:34.796 wrong here. 00:13:34.836 --> 00:13:35.836 What are the things that you suggest 00:13:35.856 --> 00:13:36.437 people look for? 00:13:38.318 --> 00:13:39.119 Cool. 00:13:39.139 --> 00:13:39.379 You know, 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:42.260 I've always tried to figure out because I 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:43.322 do leadership development. 00:13:43.341 --> 00:13:45.202 So I try to help other clinic directors 00:13:45.222 --> 00:13:47.825 with this as well as our higher ups 00:13:47.865 --> 00:13:49.926 so they can sort of see the trickle 00:13:49.946 --> 00:13:51.006 down effect that they create. 00:13:51.206 --> 00:13:53.248 But I think, honestly, 00:13:54.129 --> 00:13:56.690 one of the biggest things is when the 00:13:56.730 --> 00:13:58.091 clinician stops working. 00:13:58.863 --> 00:13:59.322 listening. 00:13:59.644 --> 00:14:02.686 So patients recognize this really quickly. 00:14:02.745 --> 00:14:06.590 So they'll leave an MPS score or a 00:14:06.649 --> 00:14:11.793 review pretty fast and say it doesn't feel 00:14:11.813 --> 00:14:13.355 like they heard me. 00:14:13.394 --> 00:14:16.597 It feels like I was just another person. 00:14:16.677 --> 00:14:19.900 I didn't feel like it was treatment 00:14:19.941 --> 00:14:21.182 tailored to me. 00:14:21.702 --> 00:14:24.445 Those cues, especially someone who has 00:14:24.884 --> 00:14:27.726 hadn't had that issue before um that 00:14:27.767 --> 00:14:30.008 started to pop up i'm like oh that's 00:14:30.048 --> 00:14:31.808 not good because all of a sudden that 00:14:31.969 --> 00:14:35.571 clinician no longer has the energy to pay 00:14:35.591 --> 00:14:37.131 attention to the person in front of them 00:14:37.731 --> 00:14:40.094 their brain is shutting off and creating 00:14:40.134 --> 00:14:41.815 an extra boundary so that they don't have 00:14:41.835 --> 00:14:44.056 to put in that extra brain power and 00:14:44.076 --> 00:14:48.118 they're just going through the motions we 00:14:48.158 --> 00:14:49.278 know this though 00:14:49.989 --> 00:14:50.710 Yeah. 00:14:50.769 --> 00:14:52.472 And it's tricky because PTs are more 00:14:52.513 --> 00:14:56.077 complicated because most PT programs and 00:14:56.138 --> 00:14:56.979 OT and speech, obviously, 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.120 I haven't gone through those programs, 00:14:58.160 --> 00:15:01.566 but PT programs are like PTs are taught 00:15:01.586 --> 00:15:02.106 to listen. 00:15:02.488 --> 00:15:02.748 Right. 00:15:04.671 --> 00:15:04.931 But. 00:15:05.708 --> 00:15:09.011 it's a it's not natural for everybody um 00:15:09.072 --> 00:15:10.773 so if you come in and you've learned 00:15:10.812 --> 00:15:12.254 it but then that starts to trickle down 00:15:12.333 --> 00:15:13.475 that might be the first thing to go 00:15:13.514 --> 00:15:15.616 if it's not natural for you and then 00:15:15.657 --> 00:15:17.337 on top of that if it is natural 00:15:17.357 --> 00:15:19.919 for you that's a big red flag if 00:15:19.940 --> 00:15:21.821 you are no longer listening if you are 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:22.261 just kind of 00:15:23.006 --> 00:15:25.749 Well, it's, you know, I mean, 00:15:25.828 --> 00:15:27.610 it's what a four-year-old would do. 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:29.312 So it's what we default to, 00:15:29.572 --> 00:15:31.875 which is like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. 00:15:31.894 --> 00:15:32.774 I should say teenagers. 00:15:33.135 --> 00:15:34.476 I have experience with teenagers with 00:15:34.517 --> 00:15:35.116 friends of mine. 00:15:35.216 --> 00:15:36.418 I feel like it's a teenager thing. 00:15:36.498 --> 00:15:37.239 Uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah. 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.081 Exactly. 00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:40.522 Teenagers can have phenomenal boundaries. 00:15:40.562 --> 00:15:42.023 Their frontal lobe not being developed 00:15:42.062 --> 00:15:43.384 yet, like, good for them. 00:15:44.424 --> 00:15:45.706 But as a clinician, 00:15:45.765 --> 00:15:47.587 we need to find that, like, in between. 00:15:47.607 --> 00:15:47.788 Like, 00:15:47.847 --> 00:15:49.009 emotional boundaries where you're not 00:15:49.048 --> 00:15:50.009 taking it home, right? 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:51.791 And bring yourself out that way, 00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:53.711 but not to the point where you're losing 00:15:53.772 --> 00:15:54.932 that quality of care and listening to 00:15:54.972 --> 00:15:55.953 people. 00:15:56.073 --> 00:15:58.196 Episode today brought to you by U.S. 00:15:58.235 --> 00:15:58.916 Physical Therapy, 00:15:58.956 --> 00:16:00.437 national leader of clinics focused on 00:16:00.476 --> 00:16:01.357 developing clinicians, 00:16:01.418 --> 00:16:02.118 not burning them out. 00:16:02.217 --> 00:16:02.578 That's good. 00:16:03.219 --> 00:16:04.580 Leadership tracks, mentorship, 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:05.240 career growth. 00:16:05.341 --> 00:16:05.660 Oh, my. 00:16:06.221 --> 00:16:08.101 And the stability to build your future in 00:16:08.163 --> 00:16:08.462 PT. 00:16:08.543 --> 00:16:09.823 If you want a place that supports how 00:16:10.004 --> 00:16:12.765 you want to practice, that could be U.S. 00:16:12.806 --> 00:16:15.006 Physical Therapy, USPH.com. 00:16:15.047 --> 00:16:17.369 That's USPH.com. 00:16:17.548 --> 00:16:18.890 dot com. 00:16:20.173 --> 00:16:21.975 So what advice would you give right now 00:16:22.636 --> 00:16:24.900 to someone who is not in the profession, 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:26.082 a PT student? 00:16:26.908 --> 00:16:29.750 who wants to maybe come in and change 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:32.250 healthcare, but might also feel like, man, 00:16:32.311 --> 00:16:34.532 I'm not even on the totem pole yet, 00:16:34.591 --> 00:16:34.871 right? 00:16:34.912 --> 00:16:37.692 But feels totally powerless right now. 00:16:39.214 --> 00:16:41.054 How do they pick a place that they 00:16:41.075 --> 00:16:42.335 don't get caught up in this? 00:16:42.495 --> 00:16:44.576 If they do get to a place, 00:16:45.115 --> 00:16:46.777 how do they use their words and not 00:16:46.797 --> 00:16:48.197 their non-listening skills? 00:16:48.256 --> 00:16:50.057 So let's go with the first one. 00:16:50.278 --> 00:16:54.259 How would you tease out for a PT 00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:54.639 student 00:16:55.788 --> 00:16:57.769 If an environment they, because of course, 00:16:57.948 --> 00:16:59.490 I mean, PT students are in demand now, 00:16:59.529 --> 00:16:59.850 baby. 00:17:00.350 --> 00:17:01.671 PT students, you have the power. 00:17:02.030 --> 00:17:02.552 They need you. 00:17:02.672 --> 00:17:03.231 They want you. 00:17:03.432 --> 00:17:03.893 They need you. 00:17:05.894 --> 00:17:08.075 But make sure you don't go and chase. 00:17:09.435 --> 00:17:09.655 Listen, 00:17:09.675 --> 00:17:10.776 I'm all about you getting that bag. 00:17:10.816 --> 00:17:11.997 But if you chase it, 00:17:12.017 --> 00:17:13.357 but you get there and the situation is 00:17:13.417 --> 00:17:13.837 bad, 00:17:14.157 --> 00:17:15.499 the situation is something that Holly's 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:15.979 describing. 00:17:16.298 --> 00:17:17.940 How would you teach them to ask a 00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:20.662 question or two that could tease that out? 00:17:20.682 --> 00:17:23.682 That's a really good question. 00:17:25.788 --> 00:17:28.230 I think a company like if you're talking 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:30.751 to the clinic manager or the owner, 00:17:30.791 --> 00:17:31.531 whoever it may be, 00:17:31.551 --> 00:17:33.953 depending on how big the company is and 00:17:33.973 --> 00:17:36.035 talking to them about what the company 00:17:36.075 --> 00:17:38.317 values in terms of day to day, 00:17:38.737 --> 00:17:40.298 like the company is going to have their 00:17:40.317 --> 00:17:43.601 values written on their website and it's. 00:17:44.361 --> 00:17:46.541 their you know global mission statement 00:17:46.682 --> 00:17:49.383 but which is yeah great everybody has a 00:17:49.403 --> 00:17:50.742 good one regardless of how good the 00:17:50.762 --> 00:17:53.324 company is uh that's the whole point but 00:17:53.463 --> 00:17:56.625 what are they valuing day to day if 00:17:56.924 --> 00:18:00.346 they're only valuing if they tell you like 00:18:00.506 --> 00:18:02.527 we want you to see like keep your 00:18:02.547 --> 00:18:04.288 schedule full um 00:18:05.288 --> 00:18:07.388 Your patients can be seen one-on-one. 00:18:07.409 --> 00:18:08.390 You don't have to double up. 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:10.530 That's already a good start because what 00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:11.912 that means is that they're not 00:18:11.951 --> 00:18:14.634 prioritizing you seeing absolutely as many 00:18:14.673 --> 00:18:15.535 patients as possible. 00:18:16.315 --> 00:18:18.175 They're giving you that time to have that 00:18:18.195 --> 00:18:19.297 face-to-face with patients. 00:18:19.457 --> 00:18:21.117 That's a pretty good thing. 00:18:21.758 --> 00:18:22.419 On top of that, 00:18:22.538 --> 00:18:23.900 what is their value of Con Ed? 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.121 We all want Con Ed to be paid 00:18:26.161 --> 00:18:26.421 for. 00:18:26.682 --> 00:18:27.301 That's a big deal. 00:18:27.521 --> 00:18:28.001 However, 00:18:29.063 --> 00:18:31.785 Con Ed has been shown to reduce burnout. 00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:35.362 If someone has a lot of knowledge, 00:18:35.741 --> 00:18:37.323 they are not going to be taxed as 00:18:37.363 --> 00:18:39.443 much every day trying to problem solve and 00:18:39.463 --> 00:18:40.805 figure out what's going on with patients. 00:18:41.404 --> 00:18:46.387 So if that company can prioritize Con Ed 00:18:46.428 --> 00:18:48.068 and not just saying like, oh, 00:18:48.088 --> 00:18:50.529 we have our own in-house Con Ed that 00:18:50.650 --> 00:18:51.569 you can take for free, 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:52.931 but we won't pay for anything outside of 00:18:52.951 --> 00:18:53.090 that. 00:18:53.832 --> 00:18:54.251 Not good. 00:18:54.471 --> 00:18:55.873 You should be allowed to take what you 00:18:55.913 --> 00:18:57.613 want because there's so many good 00:18:58.374 --> 00:18:58.874 programs. 00:18:59.354 --> 00:19:01.275 Shout out Institute of Clinical Excellence 00:19:01.335 --> 00:19:02.236 and all those other ones. 00:19:02.375 --> 00:19:02.576 But 00:19:05.647 --> 00:19:09.490 It's how they are able to support your 00:19:09.609 --> 00:19:12.352 growth and supporting you in terms of 00:19:12.412 --> 00:19:13.771 making your life easier. 00:19:14.653 --> 00:19:16.433 They all say get some mentorship, 00:19:16.453 --> 00:19:20.316 but what does that actually look like? 00:19:20.736 --> 00:19:24.038 Actual mentorship programs are so rare. 00:19:24.298 --> 00:19:26.298 Residency programs, different, obviously. 00:19:26.618 --> 00:19:29.299 mentorship programs are super rare so they 00:19:29.461 --> 00:19:31.240 actually have a structured program with 00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:33.321 someone who is going to sit with you 00:19:33.522 --> 00:19:36.804 regularly with a structured schedule of 00:19:36.864 --> 00:19:39.945 like how that meeting should go each time 00:19:40.286 --> 00:19:41.446 that's a big deal because they're 00:19:41.467 --> 00:19:43.627 prioritizing your learning and making sure 00:19:43.688 --> 00:19:45.308 you feel confident and comfortable in what 00:19:45.328 --> 00:19:47.609 you're doing i would also say making sure 00:19:47.630 --> 00:19:49.711 you never work alone because 00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:52.532 Then you get that extra support and that 00:19:52.553 --> 00:19:53.394 community feel. 00:19:53.933 --> 00:19:56.996 It is so rare that a PT does 00:19:57.056 --> 00:19:58.778 well working by themselves, 00:19:59.478 --> 00:20:00.519 even twenty years later, 00:20:00.898 --> 00:20:04.082 because that twenty year veteran no longer 00:20:04.142 --> 00:20:08.125 has that up to date research that the 00:20:08.184 --> 00:20:09.066 new grad has. 00:20:09.526 --> 00:20:12.307 So you are just seeing a different way. 00:20:12.488 --> 00:20:14.410 Like not I mean, nothing against research. 00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:14.609 Right. 00:20:14.650 --> 00:20:16.811 But just like we get in ruts, right? 00:20:17.896 --> 00:20:18.357 That too. 00:20:18.458 --> 00:20:18.938 Exactly. 00:20:18.978 --> 00:20:20.599 And you see like a new exercise or 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.323 yeah, I forgot about that thing or yeah, 00:20:23.363 --> 00:20:24.183 that's a good idea. 00:20:24.263 --> 00:20:25.925 Or, Oh, I forgot about that diagnosis or, 00:20:25.945 --> 00:20:27.467 you know, whatever made me exactly. 00:20:27.928 --> 00:20:28.067 Yeah. 00:20:28.087 --> 00:20:29.189 You got it. 00:20:29.249 --> 00:20:29.829 Yep. 00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:31.691 I think, I think I'm getting it. 00:20:31.912 --> 00:20:33.093 Um, 00:20:33.133 --> 00:20:34.334 do you want to play a quick game? 00:20:34.354 --> 00:20:34.795 We're going to call it, 00:20:34.835 --> 00:20:36.056 we're going to call this game culture 00:20:36.096 --> 00:20:36.435 check. 00:20:36.516 --> 00:20:37.718 You ready to play culture check? 00:20:38.258 --> 00:20:38.999 Sounds awesome. 00:20:39.259 --> 00:20:39.500 Okay. 00:20:43.268 --> 00:20:45.170 gonna throw a statement at you you tell 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:47.372 me if it's a green flag or a 00:20:47.511 --> 00:20:49.994 red flag in a clinical culture you ready 00:20:50.015 --> 00:20:51.656 for that yeah i'm a little sweaty but 00:20:51.696 --> 00:20:53.659 okay let's go all right no one there 00:20:54.019 --> 00:20:55.760 no one at the clinic ever takes all 00:20:55.780 --> 00:20:57.742 of their pto green flag or red flag 00:20:58.104 --> 00:21:01.527 red flag yeah why it's there for a 00:21:01.567 --> 00:21:04.230 reason take a break yeah but that show 00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:05.872 in my opinion it shows the culture 00:21:06.719 --> 00:21:09.560 is we value you working hard which i'm 00:21:09.621 --> 00:21:11.821 okay with we value not taking the thing 00:21:11.842 --> 00:21:13.142 that you just you deserve everybody 00:21:13.162 --> 00:21:15.063 deserves it when i ran radio stations i 00:21:15.083 --> 00:21:16.723 said you have two weeks or three weeks 00:21:16.743 --> 00:21:19.125 vacation and five personal days if any of 00:21:19.144 --> 00:21:20.885 you hit january or december thirty first 00:21:21.246 --> 00:21:22.446 with all of those i don't do it 00:21:22.807 --> 00:21:24.847 don't do it that's amazing don't do it 00:21:24.867 --> 00:21:28.630 that's how it should be red flag green 00:21:28.670 --> 00:21:31.111 flag we talk about dei but no one 00:21:31.131 --> 00:21:33.772 really knows who owns it if there's no 00:21:33.792 --> 00:21:36.074 one who owns it red flag yeah why 00:21:36.771 --> 00:21:38.492 Because someone should be making sure 00:21:38.532 --> 00:21:39.833 initiatives are happening, 00:21:39.873 --> 00:21:41.573 making sure that things are where they 00:21:41.633 --> 00:21:42.273 need to be. 00:21:42.574 --> 00:21:44.253 It doesn't have to be everybody has a 00:21:44.294 --> 00:21:44.713 piece of it, 00:21:44.753 --> 00:21:46.974 but one person for sure has to be 00:21:47.015 --> 00:21:48.355 making sure that they're tracking and 00:21:48.375 --> 00:21:49.256 making it okay. 00:21:49.576 --> 00:21:51.375 Here's free consulting advice or one of my 00:21:51.415 --> 00:21:51.615 things. 00:21:51.655 --> 00:21:53.477 When I get brought into an organization, 00:21:53.497 --> 00:21:53.936 it doesn't matter, 00:21:54.037 --> 00:21:55.417 in healthcare most of the time for me, 00:21:55.498 --> 00:21:59.259 I say, hey, if this doesn't go well, 00:21:59.298 --> 00:22:00.219 who gets in trouble? 00:22:00.338 --> 00:22:02.160 And it's a weird question to ask in 00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:03.119 a room full of adults. 00:22:04.030 --> 00:22:05.730 And when they can't answer it, I go, 00:22:05.851 --> 00:22:06.310 oh, 00:22:06.451 --> 00:22:08.031 that's why I'm here is because no one 00:22:08.211 --> 00:22:08.592 owns it. 00:22:09.571 --> 00:22:10.531 So if no one owns it, 00:22:10.971 --> 00:22:11.652 everybody's just like, 00:22:11.873 --> 00:22:13.292 they just look at it like it's, 00:22:13.692 --> 00:22:15.073 you know, it's a turd on the floor. 00:22:15.133 --> 00:22:16.492 Like, well, someone else will clean it up. 00:22:16.913 --> 00:22:18.433 And then everybody just walks around it. 00:22:18.794 --> 00:22:19.933 Yeah, you just sort of like, 00:22:19.993 --> 00:22:21.114 you look at the court, you know, 00:22:21.153 --> 00:22:21.493 it's there. 00:22:21.894 --> 00:22:24.234 You own it, it gets done. 00:22:24.434 --> 00:22:25.654 Nobody owns it, doesn't get done. 00:22:26.154 --> 00:22:27.715 All red flag, green flag, 00:22:27.855 --> 00:22:30.195 all staff meetings start and end on time. 00:22:31.444 --> 00:22:32.346 Green flag. 00:22:32.465 --> 00:22:33.547 Yeah. 00:22:33.606 --> 00:22:34.528 Respects boundaries. 00:22:35.008 --> 00:22:35.228 Yeah. 00:22:35.407 --> 00:22:36.729 Values other people's time. 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:37.869 Absolutely. 00:22:38.150 --> 00:22:39.030 Came prepared. 00:22:39.111 --> 00:22:43.194 Somebody had a crazy statistic that if you 00:22:43.234 --> 00:22:44.596 are going to lead an hour meeting, 00:22:44.635 --> 00:22:45.556 you should spend like, 00:22:46.317 --> 00:22:47.198 I don't know if I agree with this 00:22:47.238 --> 00:22:47.417 person. 00:22:47.438 --> 00:22:47.678 They're like, 00:22:47.958 --> 00:22:49.519 you should spend twice the amount of time 00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:50.601 preparing for the meeting. 00:22:50.621 --> 00:22:53.001 And I was like, that seems insane. 00:22:53.742 --> 00:22:54.763 to prepare for two hours, 00:22:54.824 --> 00:22:56.124 but you do you. 00:22:56.584 --> 00:22:58.704 I do like when you can tell there's 00:22:58.724 --> 00:23:00.185 a structure, there's a purpose. 00:23:00.266 --> 00:23:01.067 What are we doing here? 00:23:01.086 --> 00:23:01.207 Okay. 00:23:01.487 --> 00:23:02.686 Today's goals are these three things. 00:23:02.707 --> 00:23:03.887 And if we can hit them in twenty 00:23:03.907 --> 00:23:04.788 eight minutes, we're out of here. 00:23:04.867 --> 00:23:06.449 If not, we got sixty. 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:08.069 Last one. 00:23:09.590 --> 00:23:11.050 We have exit interviews, 00:23:11.131 --> 00:23:12.352 but never change anything. 00:23:12.432 --> 00:23:13.692 I mean, this is obvious, but red flag, 00:23:13.792 --> 00:23:14.153 green flag. 00:23:14.173 --> 00:23:14.492 And why? 00:23:15.076 --> 00:23:16.617 That's a terrifying red flag. 00:23:17.338 --> 00:23:20.300 I don't think that at all is great. 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:21.801 That's fantastic. 00:23:22.321 --> 00:23:22.521 Right. 00:23:22.541 --> 00:23:25.284 But flat out, we never change anything. 00:23:26.184 --> 00:23:27.705 Like, even without extra interviews, 00:23:27.746 --> 00:23:28.866 you should be constantly as an 00:23:28.906 --> 00:23:30.988 organization trying to get better. 00:23:31.188 --> 00:23:31.628 Always. 00:23:32.169 --> 00:23:33.369 I was in a Facebook group the other 00:23:33.390 --> 00:23:34.371 day and someone was like, 00:23:35.461 --> 00:23:37.423 asking for the, you know, 00:23:37.462 --> 00:23:39.163 what should and shouldn't I say in the 00:23:39.262 --> 00:23:39.863 exit interview? 00:23:39.883 --> 00:23:41.003 And I was very clear. 00:23:41.023 --> 00:23:42.403 I'm like, if you're leaving, 00:23:42.463 --> 00:23:44.365 you understand that that exit interview is 00:23:44.424 --> 00:23:45.085 for them. 00:23:46.005 --> 00:23:47.705 And I'll get an expert in here, 00:23:47.726 --> 00:23:49.747 but I'm pretty sure this is a legal 00:23:49.787 --> 00:23:50.727 thing for them. 00:23:51.406 --> 00:23:52.607 They are right. 00:23:52.867 --> 00:23:53.968 HR does exit interviews. 00:23:54.528 --> 00:23:56.009 HR works for the company. 00:23:56.628 --> 00:23:58.169 HR doesn't work for you. 00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:00.069 Let's be very clear. 00:24:00.289 --> 00:24:02.290 So do you owe them an exit interview? 00:24:03.430 --> 00:24:04.351 I don't know if they, I mean, 00:24:05.211 --> 00:24:05.830 I have never, 00:24:05.991 --> 00:24:07.511 I did a bunch in the early career 00:24:07.532 --> 00:24:07.952 because I was like, 00:24:08.192 --> 00:24:09.374 I'm going to show them. 00:24:09.614 --> 00:24:10.733 And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute. 00:24:10.773 --> 00:24:11.454 If they cared, 00:24:11.775 --> 00:24:12.976 they would have changed it six months ago 00:24:13.016 --> 00:24:14.517 before I left or whatever it was. 00:24:15.237 --> 00:24:17.377 So I have never done them ever again. 00:24:17.618 --> 00:24:18.939 But if you do them and no one, 00:24:19.180 --> 00:24:20.440 because there are those people who are 00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.221 there to change things because they want 00:24:22.260 --> 00:24:23.541 to leave their coworkers better. 00:24:24.142 --> 00:24:25.202 And maybe I can, you know, 00:24:25.323 --> 00:24:26.763 tell them and I wag a finger and 00:24:26.784 --> 00:24:27.284 they do it. 00:24:28.065 --> 00:24:30.326 But if nothing ever changes, man, oh, 00:24:30.346 --> 00:24:31.467 that's so frustrating, right? 00:24:32.537 --> 00:24:33.278 I can't even imagine. 00:24:33.357 --> 00:24:35.642 I mean, honestly, like that, 00:24:35.662 --> 00:24:37.045 that shouldn't be the only time you're 00:24:37.085 --> 00:24:38.287 given to give feedback. 00:24:39.048 --> 00:24:40.250 But if that's the only time you feel 00:24:40.391 --> 00:24:42.473 brave enough to feel that, give feedback, 00:24:42.574 --> 00:24:45.058 then I could understand it more. 00:24:45.565 --> 00:24:46.726 That should have been on my list. 00:24:47.365 --> 00:24:48.547 Red flag, green flag. 00:24:48.987 --> 00:24:50.887 No productive or clear routes to give 00:24:50.928 --> 00:24:51.448 feedback. 00:24:52.048 --> 00:24:53.648 And is something done? 00:24:53.769 --> 00:24:54.970 I've been in organizations where we've 00:24:54.990 --> 00:24:56.730 done structured quarterly feedback. 00:24:57.490 --> 00:24:59.892 And after the first two times, 00:25:00.573 --> 00:25:02.314 when I thought, you know, the first time, 00:25:02.413 --> 00:25:03.874 all right, let's do it thoughtfully. 00:25:04.174 --> 00:25:05.214 What do I want to improve? 00:25:05.234 --> 00:25:05.555 Because, hey, 00:25:05.575 --> 00:25:06.915 this is where I spend eight hours of 00:25:06.955 --> 00:25:07.976 my day or whatever it was. 00:25:08.436 --> 00:25:09.676 And after I did it twice and saw 00:25:09.717 --> 00:25:11.298 nothing changed, Holly, 00:25:11.357 --> 00:25:13.219 what do you think I did the third 00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:14.279 time it was time to do structured 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:14.640 feedback? 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:15.601 I wasn't even, 00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:16.942 I was sitting in the back of the 00:25:16.961 --> 00:25:17.262 room. 00:25:17.762 --> 00:25:18.443 I filled it out. 00:25:18.483 --> 00:25:20.066 Like I was like, yeah, everything's great. 00:25:20.246 --> 00:25:20.727 You're great. 00:25:20.787 --> 00:25:21.146 I love you. 00:25:21.166 --> 00:25:21.607 You're great. 00:25:22.288 --> 00:25:23.369 What am I doing? 00:25:23.390 --> 00:25:25.092 Smart people don't do dumb things most of 00:25:25.112 --> 00:25:25.412 the time. 00:25:25.432 --> 00:25:26.432 They do sometimes, 00:25:27.013 --> 00:25:28.296 but they're not going to put effort into 00:25:28.355 --> 00:25:29.297 it unless they think it's going to 00:25:29.317 --> 00:25:30.218 actually lead to something. 00:25:30.836 --> 00:25:31.596 Right, exactly. 00:25:31.758 --> 00:25:33.921 And I think companies need to recognize, 00:25:34.201 --> 00:25:35.844 even if you can't necessarily fix 00:25:35.884 --> 00:25:36.384 something, 00:25:37.266 --> 00:25:38.567 people are going to have all kinds of 00:25:38.587 --> 00:25:39.169 feedback. 00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:41.271 But if they can't fix something, 00:25:41.511 --> 00:25:43.075 you need to address it regardless. 00:25:43.615 --> 00:25:45.417 If someone hears that you heard them, 00:25:47.840 --> 00:25:49.501 Oprah said people want to be seen, heard, 00:25:49.561 --> 00:25:50.162 and understood. 00:25:50.542 --> 00:25:52.703 The amount of complaints and frustration, 00:25:53.144 --> 00:25:54.345 and I believe, 00:25:54.384 --> 00:25:55.645 if I'm getting the story right, 00:25:56.246 --> 00:26:00.628 the amount of vandalism, 00:26:00.808 --> 00:26:04.251 like damage in a city's subway system or 00:26:04.352 --> 00:26:05.092 metro system, 00:26:05.813 --> 00:26:08.374 went down when they installed digital 00:26:08.413 --> 00:26:10.175 readouts telling you when the next train 00:26:10.215 --> 00:26:10.875 was going to come. 00:26:11.977 --> 00:26:13.698 Because when's it coming? 00:26:13.837 --> 00:26:14.459 I don't know. 00:26:15.615 --> 00:26:17.236 People would get, and people study this. 00:26:17.256 --> 00:26:17.816 People are smarter than me. 00:26:17.996 --> 00:26:18.336 They'd be like, 00:26:18.496 --> 00:26:20.116 people would get frustrated after six 00:26:20.156 --> 00:26:20.916 minutes of waiting. 00:26:21.376 --> 00:26:22.498 But if you put a thing up that 00:26:22.518 --> 00:26:23.877 said it'll come in twelve minutes, 00:26:24.238 --> 00:26:25.459 they didn't get frustrated because they're 00:26:25.479 --> 00:26:26.578 like, it's coming in twelve minutes. 00:26:26.659 --> 00:26:29.039 I have some, okay, 00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:30.299 you see me being frustrated, 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:30.721 but you're like, 00:26:30.901 --> 00:26:31.840 it's coming in twelve minutes. 00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:34.662 I cannot fix this, but I see you, 00:26:35.541 --> 00:26:37.143 and when I have an opportunity, 00:26:37.383 --> 00:26:39.523 that is number, it's in my top ten. 00:26:40.064 --> 00:26:42.464 Just knowing that does not remove the 00:26:42.484 --> 00:26:45.246 frustration, but it reduces it. 00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:47.810 And sometimes that's all we can do. 00:26:47.971 --> 00:26:48.750 I mean, listen, man, 00:26:49.231 --> 00:26:50.653 I've been in leadership and I've been in 00:26:51.232 --> 00:26:52.153 whatever, followership. 00:26:52.193 --> 00:26:54.335 I've been a personal follower and I've 00:26:54.355 --> 00:26:55.016 been frustrated. 00:26:55.056 --> 00:26:56.737 But when I've understood, my boss is like, 00:26:56.797 --> 00:26:57.336 I got you. 00:26:57.436 --> 00:26:58.157 Listen, hey, man, 00:26:58.397 --> 00:26:59.519 I wish I had all the money in 00:26:59.538 --> 00:27:00.759 the world to just throw at this problem, 00:27:00.778 --> 00:27:01.140 but I don't. 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:01.720 I'm like, all right, man. 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:03.560 Well, hey, I appreciate you. 00:27:03.580 --> 00:27:04.122 That works. 00:27:04.602 --> 00:27:05.122 It does. 00:27:05.481 --> 00:27:06.823 And I tell all my staff this, 00:27:06.863 --> 00:27:09.224 like whether you're a clinic director or a 00:27:09.265 --> 00:27:10.885 PT trying to help a patient, 00:27:11.165 --> 00:27:13.268 like managing people's expectations. 00:27:13.288 --> 00:27:13.347 Woo! 00:27:14.127 --> 00:27:15.730 changes the game. 00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:17.431 It completely changed. 00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:18.992 It makes you less frustrated. 00:27:19.692 --> 00:27:20.913 It makes them less frustrated. 00:27:21.055 --> 00:27:22.316 Everybody's on the same page. 00:27:22.536 --> 00:27:23.537 You don't have to over-communicate, 00:27:23.576 --> 00:27:25.778 but just managing their expectations. 00:27:25.818 --> 00:27:27.019 This is what you should expect is 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:28.942 literally like magic. 00:27:29.622 --> 00:27:32.144 I think it's a thousand dollars if I'm 00:27:32.265 --> 00:27:33.086 getting it right. 00:27:33.185 --> 00:27:37.309 I think the Ritz, Ritz Carlton, 00:27:38.310 --> 00:27:41.251 says anybody in the organization is 00:27:41.332 --> 00:27:43.692 allowed to spend up to a thousand dollars 00:27:43.932 --> 00:27:45.593 to solve a problem without asking. 00:27:46.012 --> 00:27:47.294 So let's say this, 00:27:47.433 --> 00:27:52.535 you're in housekeeping and something goes 00:27:52.575 --> 00:27:53.395 wrong in the room, 00:27:55.336 --> 00:27:58.576 something broke and Holly was gonna go to 00:27:58.596 --> 00:27:58.896 a wedding, 00:27:58.936 --> 00:28:00.458 but now her dress is ruined and it 00:28:00.498 --> 00:28:01.958 was our fault, like something in the room, 00:28:02.038 --> 00:28:03.659 the hairdryer exploded and now her dress 00:28:03.699 --> 00:28:05.818 is, you can just be like, 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:07.240 what size dress are you? 00:28:08.769 --> 00:28:10.810 And you call the front desk and you're 00:28:10.830 --> 00:28:10.971 like, 00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:13.153 I need four dresses up here for Holly 00:28:13.173 --> 00:28:13.693 to pick one. 00:28:14.153 --> 00:28:15.255 And you're just like, 00:28:15.335 --> 00:28:16.236 is it a thousand dollars? 00:28:16.517 --> 00:28:17.057 No, it's less. 00:28:17.237 --> 00:28:17.817 Didn't solve it. 00:28:18.198 --> 00:28:18.999 We'll figure it out later. 00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:20.621 Because solving it now for less than a 00:28:20.661 --> 00:28:23.182 thousand dollars is worth ten thousand. 00:28:23.502 --> 00:28:25.325 An ounce of prevention, pound of cure. 00:28:25.625 --> 00:28:26.866 Thousand dollars of prevention, 00:28:27.106 --> 00:28:27.847 pound of cure. 00:28:28.428 --> 00:28:28.688 And... 00:28:29.409 --> 00:28:30.609 It doesn't even need to be a thousand 00:28:30.650 --> 00:28:32.089 dollars is what I feel like I'm hearing 00:28:32.109 --> 00:28:32.349 from you. 00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:32.911 And I agree, 00:28:32.951 --> 00:28:33.951 which is it could just be like, hey, 00:28:33.971 --> 00:28:35.132 man, you're right about that. 00:28:35.531 --> 00:28:36.451 I'm going to I'm going to get on 00:28:36.511 --> 00:28:36.592 it. 00:28:36.951 --> 00:28:37.873 I honestly don't know when I'm going to 00:28:37.893 --> 00:28:38.573 be able to fix it, 00:28:38.952 --> 00:28:41.713 but I'm on it like that solves. 00:28:41.814 --> 00:28:42.674 I'm going to go on the limb here 00:28:42.694 --> 00:28:44.415 and say more than fifty one percent of 00:28:44.476 --> 00:28:46.817 stress could at least help reduce. 00:28:46.836 --> 00:28:48.436 Hundred percent. 00:28:48.778 --> 00:28:49.438 That weird. 00:28:49.938 --> 00:28:52.618 It's so nothing complex here, Holly, 00:28:52.638 --> 00:28:54.299 but all of this is terribly important. 00:28:54.715 --> 00:28:55.217 It is. 00:28:55.336 --> 00:28:57.097 And it's so underrated. 00:28:57.178 --> 00:28:58.078 It's so underrated. 00:28:58.539 --> 00:28:59.980 It's understated and underrated. 00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:01.162 Understated. 00:29:01.182 --> 00:29:02.343 That'll be the title of the episode. 00:29:02.603 --> 00:29:04.365 Understated and underrated. 00:29:04.765 --> 00:29:06.205 Holly, we have a tradition on the show. 00:29:06.886 --> 00:29:08.808 It is called The Parting Shot. 00:29:09.970 --> 00:29:11.991 This is The Parting Shot. 00:29:12.551 --> 00:29:13.952 One last mic drop moment. 00:29:14.614 --> 00:29:15.414 No pressure. 00:29:15.875 --> 00:29:17.977 Just your legacy on the line. 00:29:19.211 --> 00:29:20.534 pressure whatsoever it's just this is what 00:29:20.594 --> 00:29:22.215 everyone's gonna remember everything this 00:29:22.256 --> 00:29:23.696 is how dumb humans are we remember the 00:29:23.717 --> 00:29:25.338 last mostly the last thing we heard so 00:29:25.358 --> 00:29:27.561 this is it uh what do you want 00:29:27.582 --> 00:29:28.863 to leave with the audience as we wrap 00:29:28.943 --> 00:29:30.305 up you can reiterate something you've 00:29:30.325 --> 00:29:32.186 already talked about or go rogue on me 00:29:32.207 --> 00:29:33.167 but what do you got for your parting 00:29:33.189 --> 00:29:33.429 shot 00:29:34.835 --> 00:29:36.436 I would say that the biggest thing to 00:29:36.477 --> 00:29:38.098 remember, whether you're a clinician, 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:40.122 a patient, a human, 00:29:40.442 --> 00:29:43.246 is just to communicate to any other human 00:29:43.605 --> 00:29:44.968 like you would want to be communicated 00:29:45.008 --> 00:29:45.308 with. 00:29:46.109 --> 00:29:48.772 And remember that everybody just wants to 00:29:48.813 --> 00:29:51.236 be, like Oprah said, listened to, seen, 00:29:51.276 --> 00:29:51.656 and heard. 00:29:52.691 --> 00:29:54.090 You don't even need to be like a 00:29:54.171 --> 00:29:55.592 giant communication expert. 00:29:55.672 --> 00:29:56.832 Listen to what Holly just said. 00:29:57.432 --> 00:29:59.972 Think about how you would want to be 00:30:00.012 --> 00:30:03.294 treated in this situation and do that. 00:30:03.993 --> 00:30:05.374 Quite literally, again, 00:30:05.394 --> 00:30:06.855 I'm not a mathematician or a researcher, 00:30:07.035 --> 00:30:09.055 but that would solve eighty seven percent 00:30:09.075 --> 00:30:09.515 of the issues. 00:30:09.855 --> 00:30:11.476 I completely fabricated that statistic, 00:30:11.836 --> 00:30:13.836 but I stand by my fabrication. 00:30:14.136 --> 00:30:14.317 Holly, 00:30:14.356 --> 00:30:15.737 if someone wanted to reach out and they 00:30:15.757 --> 00:30:16.836 were like this, I like her. 00:30:17.938 --> 00:30:18.857 How do they get in touch with you? 00:30:18.897 --> 00:30:19.597 What's the best ways? 00:30:20.647 --> 00:30:21.307 I'm on LinkedIn. 00:30:21.548 --> 00:30:22.729 I'm on Instagram. 00:30:24.128 --> 00:30:25.890 So either one of those, super easy. 00:30:26.809 --> 00:30:28.790 Happy to always chat about all of it. 00:30:29.391 --> 00:30:29.911 All the things. 00:30:30.270 --> 00:30:31.551 Holly, appreciate your time. 00:30:31.892 --> 00:30:32.951 Thank you for playing the games. 00:30:33.231 --> 00:30:33.932 Great parting shot. 00:30:34.012 --> 00:30:34.313 Thank you. 00:30:34.393 --> 00:30:35.012 Thanks for having me. 00:30:37.236 --> 00:30:38.317 That's it for this one, 00:30:38.576 --> 00:30:40.239 but we're just getting warmed up. 00:30:40.719 --> 00:30:42.621 Smash follow, send it to a friend, 00:30:42.840 --> 00:30:44.501 or crank up the next episode. 00:30:45.022 --> 00:30:45.884 Want to go deeper? 00:30:46.203 --> 00:30:48.486 Hit us at pgpinecast.com. 00:30:49.787 --> 00:30:51.769 Or find us on YouTube and socials at 00:30:51.788 --> 00:30:53.029 pgpinecast. 00:30:53.450 --> 00:30:55.711 And legally, none of this was advice. 00:30:55.811 --> 00:30:57.574 It's for entertainment purposes only. 00:30:59.214 --> 00:30:59.796 See, Keith? 00:30:59.996 --> 00:31:01.076 We read the script. 00:31:01.356 --> 00:31:02.018 Happy now?