You're listening to the PT Pinecast,
where smart people in healthcare come to
make noise.
Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.
Thanks, voice guy.
I am Drew McKay.
Episode is brought to you by Brooks IHL.
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We've already heard a dog bark,
and we have a rule on this show.
If a dog ever makes it on camera,
a dog or a baby,
make it on camera.
You have to stop the interview and
introduce the dog or the baby to the
audience.
You cannot just have it.
Anyway, I'll introduce the guest first.
Hang on.
Let me do the guest first.
She wrangles regulatory chaos by day.
and chickens by night we have to bring
this up somehow with a background that
spans clinical workflows compliance
strategy and healthcare technology she's
the one startup's call when they've built
something great but they're not sure how
to like scale it without compromising
values that's where she comes in she's an
anime recruiting
sci-fi devouring lateral thinkers who's
helped pts reimagine their value beyond
hands-on care and showing how technology
isn't the threat it's the tool we need
let's meet the managing director of cjm
strategic consulting cj morrow cj welcome
to the show hello i'm i'm excited to
be here so how was the intro was
i was it close was it good what
how did we do
That was awesome.
I actually included as a snippet,
I included the anime because I thought I
should sound more human.
And so that's probably, you know,
it could be one of the issues that
I have with my life is that AI
is telling me to be more human.
Hi,
we have I am a computer explaining to
you a human how to be more human.
But it is true,
because I was watching Spy X Family with
my daughters, which are,
I won't say the age,
they're probably too young for the
episode.
Wait, what were you watching?
Spy Family?
I don't know Spy Family.
So it's an anime,
and it has an adorable four-year-old
daughter that's telepathic.
And I have a four-year-old who may or
may not have been watching it.
But if she was,
if my four-year-old was telepathic,
she'd be exactly like that anime
character.
So you've just walked into my trap.
If you had to,
if you got to pick a superpower,
what would it be?
This is not easy because now you get
to pick a lot of superheroes.
They're just,
it just comes to them and they're just,
they learn to use it.
But if you have a spider, they get,
you know, it's just, yeah.
If you could just bang dry erase board
one superpower, what is it?
Honestly,
so what comes to my favorite superhero is
Deadpool.
I mean,
besides the fact that he can regrow limbs,
but he's also funny.
I don't know.
Ryan Reynolds to me is hilarious.
So if I could regrow limbs and be
funny, then yeah.
Sarcasm is a service that I offer and
could be called a superpower,
I guess we could say.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
All right.
CJ,
you said PTs need to stop seeing
themselves as just their hands.
Why is that such a dangerous mindset in
twenty twenty six to have?
Well, so and I was this right.
So I have an OCS.
I was like one of the first things
I would ask my patients when they'd come
from a doctor's appointment,
especially when they're disgruntled,
is did the doctor did your doctor
actually um touch you did they like lay
sounds did they did they move you around
and a lot of times that question is
no right and i really was a believer
of like these were what i used to
heal with
And then I moved to digital care and
all, I didn't have these anymore.
In fact,
I only had my voice and I only
had my ability to educate and empower my
patients.
And that is where I truly found what
physical therapy can be,
which is really our ability to sit with
someone and empower them to heal
themselves.
Now, sometimes they, yes,
they do need help.
They need help manually.
They need help to kind of,
with our hands,
but our voice and our minds are the
biggest tool set.
And we need to focus more on that,
I think.
Yes.
Yeah.
So look more really, I mean,
I'll say some phrases you tell me if
you disagree or agree.
Tech's a multiplier, not a replacement.
We've heard these things.
It really, I mean,
I guess it sort of opens up a
space to explore clinician identity.
Like, hey, if we're not attached to
These, I mean,
they should remain attached to your hands.
I mean,
unless you're Deadpool and then they don't
happen.
Unless you're Deadpool.
Ah, see, there's a thread.
We never know what's going to happen,
but it always pops up.
But yeah, this is an identity thing.
And you see people,
if you go to remove something from an
identity from someone without even
consciously knowing it,
they get really upset.
Yeah.
And that's what's happening now, honestly.
So with,
I work a lot with AI companies.
And AI is removing this confident identity
that we have, digital care,
removing this confident identity that we
as physical therapists have.
And I'll say the caveat, I'm licensed,
but I'm not practicing.
But it is,
it's an identity crisis that we're going
through right now.
That saying of AI,
if you don't use AI,
you're going to get replaced,
that sort of thing.
It's really...
not so much that, but we're,
we're going to experience this workforce
skills migration where it's not, again,
it's like,
it's not going to be all about our
hands, but it's not,
we're also not going to be manual
therapists anymore.
And I say that a little controversially,
I'm sure there'll be plenty of comments on
that,
but we have to adapt so that we
can use all the tools that we have
at our
In our arsenal.
Yeah, yeah.
Disposal, yeah.
Yeah, you don't have to be...
You don't have to be only anything.
Like only manual, right?
I mean, geez, I mean, how many...
It was so frustrating to me as a
second career PT going through PT school
when I was told every patient that comes
through,
you do the subjective and then you do
the measuring and then you do manual for
a little while and then you get them
to move and you give them a little
ice or heat and then they're out.
And I was like,
Oh, I left radio for this.
Oh, that's not good.
This what?
This feels like an ice cream stand.
Like everybody gets a cone.
Everybody picks a flavor.
It's different, but it's a flavor.
And then they get sprinkles,
rainbow or chocolate.
By the way, they're both the same flavor.
And then you give them a napkin and
they get out the door.
And I was like, oh, no.
And of course,
that's not the same everywhere.
But it could be a little scary to
think about it like that.
I didn't like the concept of,
when I did an eval,
I had to find and create pain with
someone.
That was some like expected thing during
an eval.
And I understand conceptually why,
but I also, I started asking more like,
okay, what makes you feel good?
You know, like that sort of thing.
So when you say that,
and I'm a second career PT or two.
What was your first career?
I was a quality engineer at Johnson &
Johnson.
Doing what?
Were you the person who figured out if
there were, in fact, no more tears?
In the shampoo?
Who's got that job?
That's got to be great or horrible.
Oh, my God.
Now I'm thinking about how.
Yeah, that was a live test.
Like now, of course.
Sorry, I'm a lateral thinker.
So now in my brain,
I'm thinking about like,
how are they testing these?
Hopefully not on babies.
But what did you do?
What did you do?
Thank you for wrangling me in.
I am.
So I worked at a company that did
insulin pumps.
So we manufactured insulin pumps.
in Pennsylvania and I worked on like the
quality,
the incoming quality and quality
engineering side.
Um,
and that was part of Johnson and Johnson's
like diabetic diabetes franchise.
And then I also worked at bandaid.
I worked in Neutrogena when I was there.
Um,
And I worked at their they have a
project management institute called
Flawless Project Execution.
So I did four years where I rotated
through and part of a leadership
development program.
That's cool.
Yeah.
You have a closet filled with band-aids
and insulin pump.
Did you like get like some stuff?
I'm just imagining like I got I got
concert T-shirts and CDs.
I'm imagining you got band-aids on
band-aids on band-aids right now.
There was,
I didn't get too many band-aids.
I worked actually on the idea conception.
So it was like pre-ideas.
So we did like, when I was there,
it was a lot of hydrocolloids,
which is like this,
the material that absorbs,
which is really cool.
And we're like, well,
puzzle shapes is cool.
I remember when I was at Neutrogena,
you know, manufacturing,
they have your mislabeled or
cap doesn't work.
So on,
I don't think they do this anymore,
but you know,
every once in a while you just get
this plastic bag of Neutrogena products.
So, um, that was really nice.
And it's like,
I just carry out a bunch of Neutrogena
and Aveeno products, um,
from the LA manufacturing area.
So, yeah.
Well, that's what you did.
Now what you do is you help healthcare
make sure I'm getting this right first.
You help healthcare tech companies scale
without losing what makes them special.
Yes.
How can clinics or providers,
how do people in our profession start
thinking that way too?
Like what can you teach them about how
these things more similar than they are
different maybe?
Yeah,
so one thing that I've learned is there
are people out there that are creative and
visionary and you have these entrepreneurs
and founders and they have these amazing
ideas and that could be a PT that
has an amazing idea.
or a patient that has amazing idea.
And then that's not me,
but I like all the boring stuff that
helps to allow your amazing idea to get
to the clinic.
So if we think about the clinics
themselves and PTs themselves,
one thing I would say is that your
idea to help you or your patient is
an amazing idea.
and it could be a unique idea and
there's so much out there now that allows
for that little light bulb to grow and
so what i do and what i actually
like to do is read i like to
read i do a lot of reading um
the regulations and compliance and then
build kind of
the framework that allows your idea then
to go to clinic and go to market.
And so what I think about that is
I allow you to continue to be creative
so that you continue to do what you
do great.
And then I do what I really love,
which is kind of catalyze your idea and
help it survive in this like highly
complex,
always moving regulatory environment.
And the world,
like the world is constantly moving.
What worked yesterday might not work at
all tomorrow or six months from now.
So you're like a how, like, so you,
I work well with people like you because
I'm a wow person.
That's not me patting myself on the back.
I'm like, I'm going to come in hot.
I'm going to throw in ninety seven ideas
knowing I'm OK if two of them will
work because I got four hundred sixty
eight more.
Just wait.
I'll tell you.
So I bring in the wow and I
work well with how people you're like,
great.
I got to tell you what,
sixty three of those will never get off
past step two.
The rest of them will never get.
OK, these two, though, maybe.
And then now now because I'm like,
here's the idea.
Have a great day.
And I'm like, I'm out of here.
Like,
I just dropped my genius and I'm out.
And then but nothing happens unless you
have a house, unless you have people.
Yeah, exactly.
Or, I mean, it's kind of lunchtime.
So I would think about you bring,
if we're thinking about burgers, right?
Ooh, I like that.
And bars.
So if you bring, you know,
the high quality burger material,
I'm the one that's going to, you know,
make the artisanal bread and bun that's
going to like seal it all together and
be kind of envelope it so that it's
like able to be eaten, so to speak.
I've said before,
I'm good in the beginning and the end.
So you have nothing,
but you have a target.
I got some ideas.
And then once we sort of have it
close, I'm like, all right,
figure out how to math that.
Got it.
See you guys later.
And in the end, you're like,
we have it.
How do we get it out to the
world?
I'm like, oh, that's easy too.
Watch this.
We do this.
It's that middle part that I'm like, oh,
we're going to do paperwork or build a
thing.
And it's moving slowly.
That's why me in the clinic,
did not work.
Like it wasn't like I didn't pass the
test or anything, but I was like,
I could design and wow,
and meeting the people, well,
subjective all day and like find the
problem, awesome.
And once we have it, I'm like,
all right, let's move it on.
Who are we gonna meet next?
Like, no, dude, you gotta do that.
And I'm like, oh, it's too slow.
My brain doesn't brain that slow.
Have you ever taken,
you said you read a lot.
Have you ever heard of six types of
working genius?
No.
So this is one of those things that
you like, you know,
one of those assessments.
I like these things,
probably part of my personality, right?
But this only has six types of working
genius.
And it spells the word widget,
which is good too, right?
Like it's an acronym, like scuba.
So it's wonder, invention, discernment,
galvanizing, enablement, and tenacity.
And the idea here is these are...
Things that you do, types of activities,
and it's not skill.
It's does it give you energy?
Yeah.
Take energy or sort of lukewarm
mayonnaise.
And since there's two,
it's sort of like you have like two
out of the six that give you energy.
Yeah.
Two out of the six that just drain
energy.
You can do them,
but at the end of the day,
you're like, I hate this.
Yeah.
And then two that you're like, you know,
neither here nor there.
wait so you're not so which do you
think you are i'll explain we did not
plan on this as this being the episode
so wonder is like you sit around like
me and i'm like look at that nail
gun how could we use that in a
non like how could we not use that
properly it's really what i do and i'm
like and then you maybe you invent
something great or maybe you shoot
someone's eye out invention is the next
step which is like i got some raw
materials i was the kid always building
forts and i was like i don't know
but i never finished the damn forts
I could draw the fort or tell you
what it's going to look like.
I could sell you the vision on why
you should gather materials and steal your
dad's nails and hammer.
But then halfway through the fort,
I'm over here building the pool, right?
So that's invention.
Discernment is you see a hundred ideas and
for whatever reason,
you know which ones are the ones.
And you might not even know how.
galvanizing is like,
like teachers are very like good,
good elementary school teachers.
You can get everybody, Hey,
everybody on me.
We're going this way.
Who's ready.
And some people are like,
I would be exhausted again.
It's about energy enablement.
Um, that's like,
you're the ultimate Robin where you might
not be good at doing the thing,
but you're running around going,
I know what he's going to need next.
Um,
I'll get it for him.
I know what she's going to need six
steps from now.
I'm going to set that.
Like you're the ultimate,
like this person's usually like a good
executive assistant where people like
you're only an executive assistant.
I'm like, if you are good at that,
you are worth ten X other people.
And then tenacity, you're a closer.
Like,
a ninety percent finished project is itchy
in your brain you're like we where I'm
like seventy three projects half finished
that's great and they're like no no
projects are finished and I'm like yeah
but seventy eight of them look at all
this potential greatness we have and the
tenacity people are like shut up sit down
finish the project so this is where you
see a team with people with different
skills is better this is why the Avengers
are interesting and
Five Deadpools would not be as good as
one Deadpool and a Wolverine.
Do you know what I mean?
Yes.
Because you got to be different.
So anyway, after I hear that,
you have not had no time to do
this.
Which are your two like energy givers that
how I just how I describe those things?
Which do you think?
And I'm putting you on the spot.
I know that.
Oh, no, I think,
so it probably discernment and E,
what was it?
Enablement.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
I love, I'll say like,
I love your one hundred one ideas.
This is what we have,
the environmental constraints that we
have.
Right.
And let's go with these five and let's,
you know, push.
But then I'm also,
lukewarm mayonnaise is probably tenacity
in the sense of like.
You can do it.
I can do it.
We have to finish it.
And then anything that, you know,
I don't know if you,
I resonate with being a shadow worker.
So all of that,
like D and E is like, okay, you,
you're the spotlight, right?
What's D and E?
What's that?
Like a discernment enablement.
You would be the spotlight.
I would take that and I work behind
the scenes and then you get it back
for the spotlight.
And then let's spell it again.
Yeah.
Right.
So that's all me.
Yeah.
All of these things are easy if it's
your skill set.
Yes.
Like once I realized,
like I remember being in group projects,
you assume everybody's just kind of like
you.
I did anyway.
I was like,
everybody loves the same things I do.
So I'd be in group projects and I'd
be like halfway through.
And of course, I'm like tenacities,
whatever.
And I'm just like,
can't we just invent six more potential
things?
Like finish this one thing.
As I got into PT school,
what I realized, I was like, hey,
I will help in the beginning and then
I will deliver the presentation and I'll
be there in the middle,
but someone else needs to be in charge.
And you know how many of my classmates
love that?
Like, you'll do the presentation.
I'm like,
I will love to do the presentation.
spend more time doing those things that
give you energy.
Like I could do sixty eight podcast
interviews a week.
My problem is I got to find the
people.
That's all right.
I'm OK at that.
And then I got to be like,
click this link and fill out this form
and pick a time.
And I'm like,
I'd rather just like hire like put me
in front of a microphone.
Give me five things to ask them.
Don't worry.
I'll get an hour out of them.
Don't.
That's not our problem.
Don't worry about that.
And it's amazing what happens when you put
the right people on the right project and
the right team.
That's why I'm like,
I'm like so attracted to working with like
project managers and that you'd think it
didn't make any sense or like,
but it does.
Cause I'm like, Oh,
all the things I hate to do,
I can hand to you and you like
those and all the things you don't want
to do.
Like, Oh, isn't this great.
We're like, let's only do this whole,
everybody needs to be the world's well,
well, most well-rounded.
I don't care how my heart surgeon is
at feet.
But we should be – I'm like,
do you know where feet are?
Yes.
Good enough.
Are you wearing shoes?
Great.
How about hearts now?
Let's do hearts.
How does that work, right?
And that makes more sense in a specialized
world.
Well-rounded,
great when we all needed to forage and
learn how to light fires and escape bears.
Well-rounded there, I guess,
but we don't have to do that anymore.
We need the other things.
Yeah.
No, definitely.
We need more – we have to specialize.
So then –
Is this where PTs are sort of,
or anybody really, I mean,
walk around the world now with technology
and AI and all those things.
What are some of the common tech myths
that PTs believe are
that wind up holding them back where
you're like,
eventually you're going to understand
this.
And the sooner you understand this,
the better for you.
What are some of the things that you
wind up course correcting on most people
or wish you could just reach through
LinkedIn and be like,
that's not actually the way it is.
It's actually like this.
So what are the things that you wish
more people in our profession knew but
don't?
And if they did,
they'd be better off for it.
I think so.
The first thing that comes to mind is,
you know, the pet peeve of, you know,
ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini,
that's not a search, right?
That's a conversationalist.
You're designed to have a conversation.
If you want to search, go on Google,
although now Gemini is associated with,
like, you're just going to get it.
You're going to get it no matter what.
But I think...
You know,
and I say this as non-practicing,
non-private practice owning,
but I think there is this view of
tech and the undertone of how then to
get paid for using the tech that's like
insurmountable in terms of change and in a
clinic.
And it's,
it is easier if you ask the right
questions upfront to really see,
see if that tech integrates into your
practice.
Um,
and we were just having a conversation
about this earlier, um, not on here,
but in a different forum around just,
you know, the tech is great.
So like remote therapeutic monitoring and
hybrid care, the tech is there.
I would love,
I wanted to be able to reach my
patients in between visits.
I,
I gave my phone number out to patient,
which is like
Please don't do that.
The compliance cap comes on.
Please do not do that.
But, you know,
I love the idea and working at a
digital health firm, too,
is like I love the idea of my
patient could ask me a question anytime
that's top of mind.
And it's like two a.m.
on Christmas morning and they have this
question or they have this pain.
They're sending me that question when it's
fresh.
Then I get it when I can and
I answer it.
and then it's like that tech works great
but then it's the question of you know
and i don't like talking about money
either because you know i just want to
do what i love to do and what
gives me energy which is not talking
financials but then it's like how do i
get paid for that because tech costs money
and i think that there is this especially
in pt world there's this
Whenever something is associated with,
okay, how do I bill for it?
How do I add that all complexity of
administration, complexity around it?
It's almost like this insurmountable
barrier is put up and then it's like
cognitive overload.
We can't think about how it integrates
into the clinical practice because a lot
of things revolve around money.
That's where you need that type of how
person.
That's again,
going back to the six types of working
genius.
It's not finance, communicate.
It's not.
It's just what types of things.
That's where you hire the person who
they're like, I can't wait.
I had a small group of people working
with my podcast.
Most of them were PT students back a
couple years ago.
I wouldn't give spreadsheet tasks to the
other group, to the rest of the group.
because one of my personality traits is
whoa like i need everybody to like me
like people like it's not great it's a
trait like believe me it's exhausting
sometimes meanwhile they were there
because those particular women loved
spreadsheet tasks so i was keeping them
away from like i was holding the thing
that they were there for because i didn't
want to give them the thing that i
thought was bad that they liked because i
wanted them to like me
Oh,
you give me a spreadsheet and I'll fall
in love with you.
To me, I was like,
I don't want to give it to CJ
because in my brain,
spreadsheets are boring and I want her to
like me.
So I'm only going to ask her to
do things.
The funny part was I would put them
on podcasts and they would do it.
but they hated it to me.
I was like, well,
I want to get you on the show.
And they're like,
I don't want to be on the show.
I'm like, of course you do.
Of course I do.
And that's a, that's a present.
That's a gift.
I don't want to keep that.
And they're like, I don't, can you not,
I just want to be in the back.
I'm like, no, I know what you really,
you really want to.
And then I had to listen.
I'm like,
they're telling you what they want.
They don't want that.
And that was a huge,
mind opener for me.
I was like, they are not being humble.
They do not like that.
And they do like the other thing.
And I was like, oh, yeah,
we're all different.
Oh, my gosh.
Wow.
And I was in my thirties at the
time.
I learned that lesson.
I was like, wow,
they really don't like this.
And I'm like, oh, who knew?
You should have known because they were
telling you in English over and over
again.
So compliance, you talk about it
And as a swimmer, I used to swim,
you call it about compliance as a swim
lane instead of a roadblock.
What's that mean?
And how does it apply to like innovation?
So like first,
what is swim lane versus roadblock mean?
And then how does that apply?
Yeah, so roadblocks synonymous with,
like when I was at J&J and I
was quality engineer,
you'd walk into a room with R&D and
all these creative people and you're like,
hi, I'm from quality.
And then all of a sudden it's like
the fun police have come in and we're
shutting the party down.
And that really stuck with me.
going forward when I moved from like a
digital practice into quality,
like I didn't want that to be there.
And I think sometimes there's this
compliance and regulatory and HIPAA and
now it's like with with with software as
a medical like apps right you have sock
too you have high trust all of all
of these things and what we're also
finding like deep seek is not this right
constraints have helped with innovation
and so when i think about roadblocks right
that's like the whoa you know instead of
looking at your hundred and one ideas and
finding the three that are magic you're
like
whatever that math is,
you're focusing on the ninety eight that
I've just said, like, whoa, on.
And I think there are some out there
that's just like compliance, stimulus,
innovation.
There's no way to get through this.
We see it a little bit like U.S.
health care, stimulus, innovation,
fee for service, all of that.
If you want to go down that lane,
we can definitely go down that lane.
But then there's also swim lanes, right?
And constraints can sometimes help.
Swim lanes can sometimes help to really
accelerate and catalyze innovation.
So now we're thinking, all right,
you have three ideas that are just baller.
But, you know,
you also had twenty ideas that weren't
totally, you know.
crap, but they were like,
they had some really good points with it.
And now if we think about those swim
lanes and those constraints that we have
to kind of navigate, um,
and we add some of the magic,
you know,
we take the magic of the three ideas,
we add some of the sprinkles from the
other one,
and we're building that ice cream cone.
An ice cream cone needs to look kind
of like an ice cream cone.
Your idea needs to fit into some of
the regulatory bounds of what US
healthcare,
I'm assuming that we're in the US, is.
um with hipaa with you know all of
that we need to maintain privacy for for
patients and data okay so how do we
do this while really making it an amazing
experience and one of the things that i
also pride myself on as a licensed pt
having been there on both sides of that
kind of in person and digital is now
i'm going to be able to inject kind
of this empathetic idea of what the
workflow is so
you have a great idea we've adjusted kind
of swim lanes and some constraints that
swim lane now is like accelerating you
down the the pool if we're using the
swim analogy and we know we have a
target we're going towards that target and
okay well how do we make sure that
we're meeting the right target
And we're being able to do it in
a way that's going to connect with the
clinical, um,
clinical workflow with the clinicians,
because you have an AI solution or you
have a solution and you're like, Hey,
this is a wonderful idea.
I love this idea.
Okay.
Let's put some stuff around it.
Let's, you know,
we're swimming down the lane and then all
of a sudden it's like no clinicians going
to use it.
Or you have the, oh,
the pilot went great.
And then it's like,
those people are really tech forward.
And now we're going into like general
population and it's like, okay,
another application, another EMR,
all of those kinds of things to think
about as you're sitting at the table,
really designing and working on that idea.
So I've been on the fun police and
the roadblock side.
And there's some,
I just look up quality engineering,
quality assurance memes out there and that
I've been there.
Yeah.
The funny part is I shouldn't like to
work with those people, but I did.
And here's why.
I work at a certain speed and I
can't see the things that those types of
people know.
Like,
it's like almost like I just it's like.
I just can't see it.
I don't have the vision.
I'm moving at a hundred miles an hour.
So I remember I'd be like, okay,
I'm going to throw an idea and I
want you to shoot holes in it.
And most people would be like, oh,
creative people just want their idea to go
through.
I'm like, I understand.
I call them.
I've called them since I was a kid.
You made me write it down.
Idea parts.
idea parts so when people are like hey
so i want to do this and this
and this and you're like that wouldn't
work but save those three things
separately just put them in a box because
like if you put those with the we
don't have the other puzzle part for that
yet but when we do like there was
a there was a um there was a
thor movie in the eighties and it was
terrible want to know why
We had a great story,
but you couldn't tell it.
There was no lightning bolts.
It was like a guy with a bad
wig and a hammer.
And then they were like, hang on.
They made the movie,
and it didn't do well.
And then they, like, forty years later,
whatever, forty years in tech version,
they were like, hang on, everybody.
Thor.
And they were like, well,
last time we did that, it sucked.
I go, I know,
but now we can shoot lightning bolts out
of his eyeballs.
And it looks like lightning bolts.
And they're like, oh, yeah.
But ahead of your time.
The other thing that you made me write
down, which I explained to people before,
a lot of times you'll think fun police.
I tend to think wonder and invention
people, right?
The two that I have,
we're like outside the box thinkers.
We want a blank dry erase board.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I, to think outside the box,
there needs to be a box.
Yeah.
You have to give me things to work
around or I just, I'm like, okay,
it looks like a straight line is the
answer.
Cause yeah.
There's nothing in the way.
I'll give you an example.
I did an internship for K rock.
I told you this before we hit record.
The morning guy at K rock was Howard
Stern and Howard Stern.
If you liked him or not, it's fine.
He got real crafty to like drop innuendos
without ever getting fined.
Cause there were rules.
You can't say these words or do this.
So he'd like get around it,
love him or hate him.
That was his thing.
He goes to satellite radio and now he
can drop F bombs and S bombs and
T bombs, whatever bombs he wants to drop.
And it wasn't fun anymore in the beginning
because it was like,
you don't have a villain.
He wasn't fighting the FCC anymore.
And I think he recognized that.
Again, love him or hate him.
Then he was like,
maybe I should just get really good at
getting to the heart of people's stories.
And in my opinion,
now he's a better interviewer than he was
for the last thirty years.
He needed a box.
Now his box is the person in front
of them.
And the goal isn't shock them.
The goal is make them feel like get
the best out of them.
And it's a,
and he's still good at it.
Right.
But yeah, so idea parts.
And if you,
I want you to come in and think
outside the box, Jimmy.
And my first questions are what boxes are
you putting me in?
And I will begin to think my way
out of them.
But if you don't put me in a
box,
you get a bunch of ideas that don't
help anybody.
Yeah.
So this is where your superpower comes in
because you've been that in-person PT.
You've been that person on the other end
of a camera and a microphone and you
couldn't use your hands.
And you've been that person who's walked
in the room and everybody sort of like
played it cool because kill it,
the cops are here or whatever.
And you've been like, but I've been you,
don't worry about it.
Like, but that's why you're there.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
You said clinicians are the architects of
data AI is learning from.
They're learning from us.
They need AI.
Oh, I said they.
That's probably not good.
I'm giving human pronouns too.
They're anthropomorphizing the machines.
It's not good.
What should we be doing differently right
now that we know that these machines are
learning from us?
How does that change maybe how we approach
it or how we think or what we
do?
I think...
really and i really like the term
architect and i did not come up with
that term because again i'm not creative i
just helped to put it out but um
when i think about right now what we're
doing in that all of our documentation and
our notes and um and i mentioned this
before like we're documenting in order to
get paid but we also need
you know, the future of,
and I'm going to put it out there.
I believe in automate,
I believe we're going to start automating
care and we are going to get to
the point where we're automating aspects,
not all of PT,
but aspects of physical therapy.
And, um,
In order to do that in the best
service for ourselves as clinicians and
for our patients,
especially the data that we have now,
which is all the documented notes and
journals and case studies and all of that
is going to be so important to help
that in the future.
And now I'm talking just automate actually
health care.
And, you know,
we can talk about automation all around
that.
You know,
we have RCM type of stuff like
reimbursement, denial automation,
automating the front desk,
automating scheduling.
All of that is going to help.
But right now we are truly the architects
of future care automation.
And we think about when I think about
value based care and the true idea of
quality care, we have to.
And also we talked about specialization.
Right.
I can't keep everything in my mind that
I need to for like I have a
certain project and I do that project.
And that's like my my full focus.
And as a PT, for instance,
I would not.
treat, for instance, women's health.
That's not my forte.
I loved ankles.
I wanted to do the intersection of acute
orthopedic injuries in a chronic
neuropathic
neurologic now i can't talk anymore a
neurologic population so i wanted to focus
that specific niche and i think now that
we're getting into like all of this
healthcare data that's coming through and
it's all this new data that's coming out
like um there's
It's nearly impossible to retain and just
keep up with what we learned.
And I went to school.
I graduated in twenty fifteen.
So it's like ten years ago.
Oh, God.
Ten years.
I know.
I'm sorry.
I'm having an existential crisis.
So ten years ago,
what I learned isn't some of the baseline.
Yeah, it's applicable,
but I can't use some of that data
now.
It's like we've had stuff come up and
I lost my train of thought because this
is what happens if I don't write things
down.
But going forward,
we need to be the architects of what
the future is going to be.
And that means that
And the catch-twenty-two is that we still
need the document to get paid.
We're not,
we don't have enough time to put extra
notes or quality documentation or, like,
say, like, hey,
I tried this with this patient,
and let's see what happens.
We also don't even have time to look
back at our notes to see how that
might have changed.
But those types of details in the care
that we provide for the health of the
patient to promote their health,
that's what's going to help us in the
future to really deliver on and help
automated simple routine aspects of
physical therapy.
And then that way,
what we have is like just this cognitive
unloading that allows us to really
personalize care.
address complex patients.
And I think that's kind of where we're
heading.
And I think some of the government
programs are also recognizing that's where
we're heading,
which is a little bit exciting,
but there's a lot of change.
Yeah.
Simple, not easy.
Yeah.
So let's make this super tactical.
and clear and say what's one thing someone
listening now could do this week without
having to buy anything or whatever what's
one thing someone listening now could do
this week to move from fear to action
when it comes to ai if someone's like
i've been anti-banana i have friends who
are like i'll never do that and this
is like a year and a half ago
i'm like you will but i'm not going
to fight you on it because the harder
i push the harder you push back
So those people who maybe are still
sitting on the side of the pool waiting
to jump into a swim lane,
what's one thing they could do to move
from fear towards action when it comes to
AI?
Where would you have them start?
So in the last week,
we've had the three major models come out
with just healthcare-specific chat.
Wait, I only know two, ChatGPT and Claude.
What was the other one?
Gemini announced Gemini for Health
yesterday.
You blink, you blink in the thing.
Okay.
That would be a major news like a
year ago.
Now it's like, ah, it's the third.
Okay.
So I missed that one.
Thank you.
I know literally yesterday.
So there is,
so there's generative AI and there's chat
GPT and then there's Claude and Gemini
really asking where I started was thinking
about it more of like critical thinking
and thought partnership.
And what I wish was,
I'd had in the clinic is, um,
in our clinic,
we use the photo focus on therapeutic
outcomes and we get a PDF of that,
you know, every quarter of like, you know,
I was, it was,
was not good at hips.
I apologize to all my patients with hip
pain.
You're probably not seeing the best PT out
there,
but it was really good at back and
neck and spine.
Um,
But take that PDF,
you can scratch it out,
your name or whatever,
and just like put it in and then
put some of your goals in and just
ask where you should focus on your
continuing education.
Or take a really hard patient case,
like someone you're stuck with or someone
that, you know,
just needs in your mind a little extra
TLC.
Right.
Anonymize it, don't put patient names,
any kind of identifiers,
but just put the case in there and
see what it says.
So in the long winded explanation,
just experiment and try it out.
Because I think a lot of the fear
that we have as clinicians,
as patients around the perception of
clinicians using AI too,
is around this like a lot of unknowns.
and yes it's a big black box and
there's a lot of unknowns in there but
i think there is you know this benefit
of just trying it and if you don't
want to go and download chat gbt or
download claude just put a question into
and i'm i'm not i get no no
financial help but you know any of this
but just put a question to the google
chat bar it'll be there it's there and
it'll help answer and then just read it
and
you know, judge for yourself, you know,
accuracy or hallucination or not.
And is it applicable?
I also like it for bias.
So I, you know, I recognize that,
you know, as we specialize, right.
And I have, you know, my upbringing,
my specific lived experiences, my,
you
all has led me to who I am
today.
But I also want to be cognizant of
how I communicate.
You talked about your six types of working
genius.
I'm an IMTJ and an ERM-VI.
I recognize them.
If I don't have to be on stage,
I don't want to be on stage,
but you give me a data sheet and
I'll love you forever type of thing.
But some of that is communication
preferences and
And I communicate a little bit lateral
thinking and everything.
That is, you know,
talking and I'm anthropomorphizing.
I use Claude.
And so using Claude as a thought partner
to help challenge my own biases so that
I then can understand a little bit more
around my world perspective or thinking.
For instance,
I mentioned I have not owned a private
practice.
I'm not a practicing PT.
I'm able to ask the questions to help
me prepare some of that more empathy in
some of the situations that I'm in, too.
So just yeah, just try it.
Jump in the shallow end.
Sorry.
Jump in the shallow end.
Exactly.
Dip the toe in.
You're not going to be able to avoid
it six months from now.
It's like you can't find a manual
transmission car now.
No.
You can't find it.
For a while there,
you had to pay more for automatic,
and then you had to pay more for
stick, and now you can't get a stick.
No.
These kids today don't know what a clutch
is.
All right.
So we're going to have you back on
the show.
I sort of feel like you could be
my secret weapon.
You'll be our AI Deadpool.
Okay, cool.
We'll pull you out every like three months
in between now and three months from now.
Just jot down this, this,
put all your idea parts down and then
we bring you back and you go,
here's what everybody needs.
Here's what you missed.
Maybe three months is too long because,
again, we blink and a new thing happens.
I mean,
we blinked in a week and three health
care chatbots came out.
So last thing we do on the episode,
CJ, no pressure.
We call it the parting shot.
This is the parting shot.
One last mic drop moment.
No pressure.
Just your legacy on the line.
All right.
Just whatever you want to wrap up with.
It could be a quote,
something you've already said you could
repeat.
What's because people always remember the
last thing that somebody said, right?
Yeah.
What would you have your parting shot be
around today's topics?
I've been thinking about, you know, what.
what the reaction would be when we find
that AI is better than us.
Because we've seen that in radiology,
right?
AI is better at reading some radiology,
but it's not replaced radiologists, right?
It's coming where we're going to see that
AI is better at doing some aspects of
physical therapy and rehab than we are.
And
I'm excited for that and what that means
to elevate our profession.
You know, the rising,
we talked about rising boat, tides,
you know, that sort of thing.
Uh,
I would add it to your tide analogy.
I was a lifeguard as a beach lifeguard.
And if you turn your back on the
ocean,
That's when you get run over by the
wave.
You can bury your head in the sand
all day.
It's coming whether you like it or not.
Science works whether you believe it or
not.
It does not require your belief.
Technology, same thing.
It's coming.
You don't like it, you'll resist it.
Great.
Cool.
You do that.
If you turn your back on it,
it will run you over.
CJ, appreciate the time.
We're going to treat you as our AI
secret weapon, I think.
You'll be our AI correspondent.
I love AI Deadpool.
I might have to get a costume or
something.
It's fine.
We're good.
Appreciate the time.
Thank you for this.
I learned a lot.
Yeah, no, this was awesome.
And I'm so honored to be here.
And I know you talked about, you know,
expectations out there.
I'm still like, it's like, I don't know.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you for your time.
That's it for this one,
but we're just getting warmed up.
Smash follow, send it to a friend,
or crank up the next episode.
Want to go deeper?
Hit us at pgpiecast.com or find us on
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And legally, none of this was advice.
It's for entertainment purposes only.
Bulls**t!
See, Keith?
We read the script.
Happy now?