Now I can't hear you.
You're listening to the PT Pinecast,
where smart people in healthcare come to
make noise.
Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.
I think we might need a better name
than books and stuff because I feel like
we used to talk about books,
Rebecca Griffith, on the show.
And now we talk about like lots of
things.
Is your microphone working?
Are we testing that now?
No.
No, I see your lips moving.
But yeah, it's because you touched.
You touched it.
i would uh try to reattach the microphone
like unplug it plug it back in maybe
refresh the screen i'll i'll jibber jabber
until you do that because right now i
got nothing no no noise no sounds people
just think i'm talking to myself uh
rebecca griffith the eddpt before we hit
uh live stream you said we wanted to
talk about uh the the vibe the the
trend which we could make fun of trends
um there you go you're good we can
make fun of trends as like the it
thing but
I feel like taking a look at what
the trends are,
and you said the trend recently in the
last couple of days,
because this is like the first week back
after that sort of dark Christmas to New
Year's.
What is the trend that you were noticing
in terms of videos and reels and what
the Zeitgeist was talking about?
I've been seeing a lot of reels that
are like, you know, everybody based,
but PT based that say things I'm leaving
behind in twenty twenty five as a DPT.
And so I want to know what you
think about that and what yours would be.
So the mic I'm hearing right now,
just FYI, is your computer,
not your actually big fancy mic.
Okay.
I don't know.
That microphone I love.
It's the Yeti Blue.
But that attachment where the wire plugs
into the top of it is very finicky.
If you move it a little bit,
it loses connection.
And once you do,
you have to reconnect it.
You could plan this trend eleven and a
half months in advance.
You know it's going to happen.
The last company I thought taking
advantage of it and doing it well was
Spotify.
Spotify, of course,
now has their Spotify wrapped for a few
years.
Now they've gotten to the point where
everybody just copies them.
But this is essentially like you're
wrapped or what are you leaving behind?
I don't know that I've seen a lot
of these things.
So what you think is being seen by
a lot of people...
I'm not saying I haven't seen any,
but I haven't seen a lot of it.
So what are the things that PTs have
been saying they're leaving behind in
twenty twenty five?
Well,
some of it's like not getting my
documentation done on time.
Some of it's like not speaking up when
I think something's wrong.
You know, stuff like that.
What should they be like?
I'm not taking insurance anymore,
like I'm leaving behind the insurance
model, that kind of thing,
or I'm leaving behind work for other
people.
So I think some of it's really
predictable.
But one that I liked the other day
was truly not changing my recommendations
to make other people happy.
Meaning what?
What are recommendations?
this is an acute care therapist.
So it was like truly like not changing
my discharge plan and my discharge
recommendation because case management
doesn't like it because the admin doesn't
like it because the patient doesn't like
it,
but like staying true to like their
clinical judgment,
which I can appreciate that.
But at the same time,
is it patient centered if there are
reasons why that discharge plan doesn't
work?
So I don't know.
I think there's some nuance missing there,
but I also think,
We've got to lean into being doctors.
I've said to people, I mean, I've done...
People have come to me for marketing.
People have come to me for content
creation.
Essentially, attention.
How do I get the best attention from
the people I'm looking to get attention
from?
And I've given a plan.
And then they've said,
we don't think that plan is what we
need to do.
We need to do this.
And I'm like,
my answer isn't changing just because you
don't like it.
And I'm sure there's a nicer way I
can say it.
Jamie Brindle is sort of a coach of
freelancers.
It doesn't really matter what you're a
freelancer in.
Um, because the same conversation happens,
whether you're doing graphic design or
discharge planning,
which is you asked me for,
you asked me a question based on a
set of criteria for success.
I analyzed that and gave you an answer
and you said, I didn't like that.
And I'd say,
I need to understand we can,
we can change the scope,
but if you want to optimize for success,
what you defined as success before we
started, um,
In my assessment,
we will not reach success if we don't
do all of these things.
Now, we can stretch them out over time.
But I also think there is this concept
with acute care therapists and ED
therapists, for sure, where it's like,
we want the discharge plan to be perfect.
And based on that set of criteria,
our best clinical judgment in an ideal
world, this is what that would be.
Right.
But I think a lot of times we
fail to take into account what reality is.
Reality is this patient won't have a
twenty four hour supervision.
This patient doesn't have health
insurance.
This patient can't get a custom
wheelchair.
So we can make this Santa Claus
recommendation, but at the same time,
an unrealistic discharge plan is a useless
discharge plan.
So I think to a certain extent,
we're not taking the full criteria into
consideration.
So are you saying this is how I
felt?
I'm not going to put words in your
mouth.
It sort of felt like this fake little
dance.
Like,
you need me to say this because insurance
this.
So therefore,
I'm going to change my answer based on.
So it's like,
who am I answering for and to.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's payer centered health care for
sure.
Right.
But we also have to keep the patient
at the center of what we're doing.
So sometimes a patient disagrees with the
discharge plan, and that's fine.
So I'm not saying change your discharge
plan.
I'm saying you can advocate for your
discharge plan.
But if it's unrealistic,
then you do have to make some adaptations.
And if it's not the discharge plan the
patient wants,
sometimes that doesn't matter, right?
Like sometimes patients just don't want to
leave the hospital,
even though they're medically ready,
they have everything in place,
they just don't want to go.
And that may be a confidence issue.
You've got to look at what that resistance
is, but...
You know, realistically, if the patient,
for example, doesn't want to go to rehab,
you can't force them to do that.
You can't force your plan on other people.
So I think just taking all of those
components and then like getting off the
hill to die.
But making sure you're being realistic and
considering all the factors.
Is this where motivational interviewing
comes in?
Like if you say what does success look
like to a patient and they say it
looks like X and you say,
based on what I see now and where
you want to go,
the answer is A and B and C.
And they say,
I'm not going to do any of those.
I'm not going to do most of those.
Is now the next step motivational?
Okay, I understand that.
And thank you for being honest and
realistic.
Based on what you just told me,
then we will not,
I don't believe that we will achieve X.
Is that okay with you?
Right.
Because I thought a second ago,
that's what we were solving for.
Right.
And also,
this is why I think you need to
do these things,
like making sure patients understand that.
And but like hearing what they're saying,
like, no, that's not my goal.
And I also ask people,
why don't you want to go to rehab?
And sometimes they have a really good
reason for that.
Or like I have patients where I have
to discharge them to a homeless shelter
and I'll go through a lot of work
to set that up.
And then they'll be like,
I don't want to do that.
I'm like, well,
why don't you want to do that?
Well, because the last time I was there,
I was assaulted and I was robbed.
OK,
that makes a lot of sense to me.
Good reason.
So I think assuming that we know best
is.
something maybe i need to leave behind in
twenty twenty five and like looking at all
the factors we also can't make things
happen just because we want to and i
think that's a really frustrating thing
that's leading to a lot of burnout and
moral injury in therapists is we know
exactly what patients need but we can't
get it for them for a variety of
reasons whether it's insurance whether
it's the health system that you work in
whether it's accessibility whether the
patient just doesn't want that i think
that can be really frustrating for people
for me specifically when i'm working in
the emergency department i'm like
I know if you had all of these
things, you could be successful.
And I know you can get none of
them.
So here are the other things that I
can offer you.
And it's hard.
It can be exhausting.
Yeah.
And I think there's got to be a
better way, though.
But I don't know.
Maybe that's what we need to find in
twenty twenty six.
is a better way to help people in
the system that we're in,
or we just need to blow the system
up.
And I'm obviously a huge advocate for
that.
And that's why I do the advocacy work
that I do.
But let me ask you this,
since you're obviously seeing a lot of
these, what are,
you mentioned a few of the things I'm
leaving behind in twenty twenty five,
you know, taking documentation home.
These are all pains, right?
These are all things we didn't like that
we don't want to
you know, copy forward.
What else was there that you remember?
I like the fact that you didn't
necessarily make a list that you'll have
to just remember on emotion and memory.
Letting other professionals decide to
define our scope, which I love that one.
We obviously don't need to do that.
I always tell people, like,
the person who knows if a patient needs
physical therapy is a physical therapist.
So I think also when people are like,
hey, you can't do that,
that's not in your scope.
So, for example, in Colorado,
we're fighting to be able to do sports
physicals, high school sports physicals.
Yeah, you told me about that.
Yeah.
And other professionals are like,
that's not in your scope.
And I'm like,
let me show you what our scope is.
legally and training wise and show you
exactly how that's in our scope.
So I think there is this,
this pressure on that.
But when we do talk about not letting
other people define our scope,
the legislature defines our scope.
So having legislative meetings, I mean,
maybe that's the thing that bothers me
about this trend is that this is stuff
I'm leaving behind in twenty twenty five.
But how are you going to leave it
behind?
Because letting other people define our
scope, I get that.
You've got top of facility,
you've got top of license,
because you want to be at the top
of your scope,
but how are you going to do that?
Thursday,
I have multiple meetings with multiple
legislators to talk to them about not
cutting Medicaid in the state of Colorado.
Because I don't want to limit
accessibility for our patients,
I don't want to limit payment for our
therapists,
I don't want to limit our scope,
all of those things.
Why?
What would happen if those things are
limited?
So with this Medicaid cut specifically?
Yeah.
Clinics are going to close.
Why does that matter?
Why is that a bad thing?
Because patients won't have access to
therapy.
Why is that a bad thing?
They'll decrease function and overall
health.
Why is that a bad thing?
They won't be able to contribute to
society.
They won't be able to live a meaningful
life.
I would lead with that.
Right.
So what I usually tell legislators when I
meet them and talk to them is that
physical therapists help keep Coloradans
at work, at play, and at leisure.
I was doing the exercise we just did
with Emily.
She's the APTA Montana.
Emily, what's her last name?
H?
Herndon.
I thought it was Herndon.
I don't want to guess.
And hopefully at the end of the little...
Because that was in her comment section.
She was doing something similar.
I can't remember what the issue was in
Montana.
And she wrote a very well-written press
release on LinkedIn.
And I came in like a...
I always say I act like a petulant
six-year-old.
What's that?
Like a wrecking ball.
You and Miley Cyrus.
Yeah.
But I'm like, why does that matter?
Well, because of this.
I'm like, why?
Why?
Until you get to the core emotional root.
And then it's like Coloradans won't be
able to work or play or contribute to
Colorado.
Legislators care about that.
They do.
But when we go to Albany, New York,
and we're like,
PTs need to get paid more.
I'm like,
that's not going to move the needle.
Well, we do need to get paid more.
What happens if we don't?
This.
What happens if that?
That.
What happens if this?
This.
And when you can't ask what happens or
why that matters anymore,
you've gotten to the thing that actually
should be your headline.
Well,
and the thing that the legislator asked me
last time was why do you think that
you should not be cut when every other
healthcare provider is in the same
position that you are?
How'd you answer that?
That's a good question.
That's a tough one.
I said, that's a great question.
And I understand that you have really
difficult decisions to make.
And I don't envy this position at all.
But we will help you save money.
And here's how.
So when your problem is balancing the
budget and looking for ways to cut costs
by supporting physical therapists and
increasing access to physical therapy,
we can help cut health care costs.
We can actually help you achieve that goal
in a better ROI.
But if you let him with like PTs
are better,
we have doctoral degrees like does not
move the needle.
It doesn't because all these other people
do too.
Right.
And so it's like,
how can I help you with your problem?
It's the same thing when I go into
health systems to talk about why you
should have PT in the emergency
department.
What matters to your hospital?
What problem are we trying to solve here?
Correct.
And it's just like doing a PT evaluation.
What are your impairments?
What are your functional limitations?
What are your participation restrictions?
Here's my point of care.
Let me ask you this because I was
in a similar situation.
I won't say with who.
I'll try to keep this as generic as
possible because some of the people in
this meeting would probably listen to this
podcast.
And it wasn't a bad thing.
I think this is how does Jimmy improve
thing.
So I got brought in to do a
project.
But I was not clear on what good
looked like because I was asked, hey,
do you want to do this thing?
And I was like, that sounds interesting.
Can I learn more?
And they explained.
Essentially, it's a Jimmy thing.
It's like come and make an in-person event
good.
And I'm using their quotes.
And then I went to the meeting and
I was like, what does good look like?
And they're like, you know, good.
And I'm like,
you can't use the word in the definition.
And I run into this problem often with
the type of work that I do.
And I would like to get better because
I feel like I just annoy people because
what they want,
they just want me to know,
but I can't because they don't know.
And I'm like,
you understand all the annoying questions
that I'm asking are trying to bring us,
me and us closer to understanding the same
thing.
Well,
it's just like if you documented after a
total knee replacement that the patient
will have good range of motion.
Good according to who?
According to who.
And if the patient's like,
I want my knee to be good,
you're like, well,
what does good mean to you?
Is that two out of ten pain?
Is that zero pain?
Is that full range of motion?
So I think we just forget that.
how we operate needs to be a little
more comprehensive with the other things
also yeah dan dropping this speaking
specifically about pts in the ed he said
he spoke to a chief medical officer that
cmo did not want pts in ed because
he doesn't want to admit patients although
i bet you rebecca griffith might say
having a pt in the ed would help
them
A hundred percent prevent that unnecessary
hospital admissions, right?
Especially when those patients are,
you can't say he would need to discharge
them somewhere.
And that is a problem he didn't want
to have.
He's this guy's pulling an ostrich move.
I feel like Dan, not Dan,
the other guy or the other woman,
whoever that was,
they're pulling an ostrich.
I don't want to touch the turd.
Therefore I'm going to,
I'm just going to never let a turd
walk in.
And that's not good.
And PTs are low-key bouncers in the ED,
right?
And my friend Sarah always says,
you don't invite everybody in off your
front porch.
It's the same thing in the hospital,
right?
We don't want to invite everybody in off
the front porch.
So if we can give them the cure
they need on the front porch and get
them going on their way,
and then we can like save the resources
of the house.
So putting those resources up front
decreases hospital admissions,
increases throughput,
decreases unnecessary imaging.
Like,
so that's why I say you can't just
say PTs and the ED are great because
PTs are great and patients like us,
you have to show the hospital how it
fixes the problem that the hospital has.
And that means they have hospital
admissions they don't want to have.
They probably have bedlock in their ED too
that could be fixed.
So they're not seeing the solution because
nobody's showing it to them.
Yeah.
That's where like an initial evaluation in
a situation that Dan's talking about or in
a situation that I went into in marketing
communications, whatever that might be.
The first thing I ask is like,
what are we solving for here?
Yeah.
People will ask me like,
what does it cost to hire you?
And I'm like,
I don't know what we're solving for.
Is this a five-minute solution?
I'll do it for free, right?
Or is it a fifty-five-minute solution or a
fifty-five-week solution?
I don't know what we're solving for here.
Do you know what we're solving for here?
Well, and that's, I would say,
a frustrating thing that I have when
people want a consulting proposal from me
is they're like, we just want a proposal.
great for one about what like i don't
i don't know you i don't know what
your problems are i can look on your
website and and see what you're putting
out to the public but i actually need
to know what is it you what is
it like consulting on what problems are
you looking for because also maybe i'm not
the right person correct oh yeah i i
i wind up trying to talk people out
of hiring me
I play that.
It's not a game,
but like I play that game where I
approach it.
I just go,
I don't know if I'm the right guy.
That actually winds up closing more deals,
but it closes more right deals.
Yes.
But I also feel like there's this people
pleaser mentality where I'm like, okay,
I'll give you a proposal.
But that's why I listened to a guy
named Jamie Brindle,
who's like a coach for freelancers.
Yeah.
And his whole mentality is like,
understand what you're solving for first.
Because you might... Also, it's like,
well,
they're going to pay me five figures to
do this.
It's like,
I'm going to hate all of it.
I don't want to overhaul your website.
I'm not your email drip campaign guy.
I will...
If you want me to be the general
contractor for your problems,
you have to understand that I'm going to
do the general... I'm the orchestra.
What's the guy in the front with the
wand?
Exactly.
I'm the conductor,
which is why I'm not in an orchestra.
But I'm not doing that.
This is a large problem.
Well, and I think sometimes when you're,
I'm going to say this a lot,
the right provider at the right time,
whether that's the consultant,
whether that's marketing,
whether that's the physical therapist,
then everything's going to align, right?
Like I had one hospital where I did
a course for them and I ended up
being their caregiver of the week.
I don't even work there.
Are you kidding me?
No.
And their nursing manager texted me.
She was somebody I worked with at a
different hospital.
And she was like,
you're our caregiver of the week.
I was like, that's very cool.
I don't work there.
And she's like, I know,
but the work that you did mattered.
And so I think when you have that
right match,
That's exactly where you need to be.
And we need to stop trying to push
ourselves where we shouldn't be and start
pushing ourselves where we really ought to
be.
But we also can't keep waiting for people
to find us.
It's like dating, right?
Like nobody knows they want to date you
if you don't ever go anywhere or talk
to anybody or show up.
Right.
And sometimes you in that dating process,
you're like mismatch.
But also,
if you walk into a dating situation,
and I've told this story before,
freshman and sophomore year of college,
Jimmy got a lot of first dates because
I had no problem failing.
I had no problem asking.
But not a lot of second dates,
and I couldn't figure out why.
Because on the first date,
I talked about how...
I was the high school.
I was the class treasurer and I was
playing the hockey team and I was so
funny and how many friends I had.
I talked about me the whole damn time.
No second dates.
And everybody laughs at that.
Everybody laughs at that.
And they go, of course,
you're not going to get a second date.
And then I go,
I just looked at your marketing,
all your stuff that you do externally.
It's all about you.
And you wonder why no one wants to
step closer.
Junior and senior year,
I started talking about,
I started asking about them.
You can ask questions in content where the
other person isn't there.
Yes.
You can show them.
I ask,
one of the greatest questions I ask,
I've got an event on Saturday at APTA
New Jersey.
It's like a student conclave.
And my first question is here,
because it's all students.
I know who they are generally.
They're like stem cells, right?
My first question on Saturday is,
is how many of you here are training
to be in show business?
Show of hands.
Nobody raises their hand.
And I go,
so you're just going to tell people how
to do exercises?
You're never going to show them?
Well, that's not fair.
So you're just going to tell them.
You're just going to sit still and tell
them.
You're never going to show them what a
future looks like if they do the things
that you say?
That seems lazy.
Me saying these things was ridiculous
three to five years ago.
And now it's not.
I used to have to really convince people
that, I'm using air quotes,
creating a content or storytelling was
important.
Now I'm sure if you pulled the statistics
on LinkedIn,
how many people have the words storyteller
in their bios is up four billion percent.
And it's like the thing of, it's the,
you know, it's the, it's the cliche.
It's the thing of the week right now.
Right.
In the future,
when you can generate infinite amount of
ideas and have access to infinite
information,
the superpower is the ability to transfer
that from human to human.
Sorry.
It is.
Now the comms majors are laughing at
everybody else.
Ha.
If you're good at it and you can
convince people to hire you to let you
do it how you see fit.
Now we're full circle back to you said
the problem is X.
I say the answer is ABC.
You say, I don't want to do that.
I say, well,
then we're not going to get X.
And we are so awful to patients when
they don't do what we tell them to
do.
Like I see so many,
that's another real trend that I really
wish would go away is PTs punching down
on their patients and making reels,
making fun of their patients.
That makes me insane.
So if we could leave that in twenty
twenty five, that would be great.
But I'll see these reels.
It'll be like, you know,
The PT says you should do these things.
And then did you do your things?
And the patient's like, no.
And ha ha ha.
But like, we're the same way.
Like just what you're talking about now.
You're like,
here's your home exercise program.
And the place is like, no,
I don't think that works.
Then why did you come to see me?
And we're so judgy about that with our
patients.
So I think we need to be more
open about all of those things.
It's just like when you hire a consultant
and they give you their expertise and
you're like, nah, bro.
And I'm like, okay,
we'll keep doing it the way you're doing
it.
Here's my experience of being a
consultant,
my limited experience of being a
consultant.
I was so excited.
I'm going to come here.
I'm going to dive into all these things,
all these problems.
I'm going to give you a plan.
And then we're going to walk through the
plan together and solve it.
And then I realized it's the same damn
thing.
What you wanted to hear was,
a lot of times, whatever you're doing,
you should keep doing it.
which is little to nothing,
but I'm going to show you how to
paint the logo blue instead of red and
that's going to change everything.
And I'm like, it's not.
This is going to require pushups.
One of the other things on one of
these reels was that we needed to stop
gatekeeping knowledge and mentor more.
And I love that in theory,
but at the same time,
we have people giving content away all the
time.
You give content away every day
and people aren't using it either.
And I also think mentoring is a two-way
relationship and it should have goals
identified and all of those things too.
And then I also,
there's like this concept of that you
should give your content away for free,
but you shouldn't treat patients for free.
So are we compensating physical therapists
for their time and expertise or are we
not?
Well, I mean,
you can give something away for free and
other things not.
So it doesn't have to be...
When is the answer always or never?
Right.
The answer is rarely, right?
The answer is rarely, always or never.
And I don't think you're gatekeeping if
you're charging money for your expertise.
Most of the time, most of the time,
successful consulting relationships I've
had is they sort of already understand.
Like I tell people in the room in
the beginning, like if Dan,
if he's still watching,
if we come into the C-suite,
most of the people know what the problem
is.
Very rarely does a contractor walk in and
you're like, I got water leaking.
And you're like, all right, well,
we all pretty,
we kind of know it's a pipe burst,
right?
What are we going to do about that?
They just don't want to do it.
So you're like,
you're not paying me to do it.
You're paying me so you don't have to
do it.
Right.
It was very simple for me to see
when my neighbor started hiring a lawn
company.
I've lived in this house for three years.
This guy has a zero-turn lawnmower and he
whips around his yard.
Now, I'm not close to my neighbor.
I wish I was.
He's not a talker.
I've tried to talk to him several times.
That's okay.
He probably closes his garage when he sees
you coming.
He probably does.
Dan's still there.
So Dan,
I'm going to tell a parallel story about
my neighbor.
And you tell me if I'm right or
wrong, because Dan's,
he works with a large,
he's growing a large organization in the
Northeast.
My neighbor has a zero turn.
And then all of a sudden I'm sitting
here and I can look right at that
window and I see this whole squad of
lawn care people.
And I'm like, oh man,
I don't know what happened.
Maybe he's just at that age.
Maybe he's just like at that financial
level.
He's like, screw that.
I want to be doing whatever.
Here was the eye-opening epiphany for me.
He didn't pay someone to mow his lawn.
He paid someone so he didn't have to
have his lawn mowed.
Now,
here's the advantage and the problem in
patient care.
I can't pay Rebecca to do push-ups for
me if I want bigger triceps.
Right.
I can't do it.
That's what bothered me is I kept in
a clinic.
I was like,
I see the problem and the path to
a solution very clearly.
And it killed me personally with my
personality when people would come back
week over week and be like,
I didn't do it.
And I'm like...
And my personality is like,
I would just close the laptop and be
like, then what are we doing here?
That was my personality.
Now,
I went to Peds and everything changed
because they were just like, is it fun?
No.
And that's a failure on me as the
provider.
Is it fun?
Yes, they'll do it.
Well, and I think too,
when you're working with patients at that
stage, you're like,
this is what I can offer you.
This is what you have to bring to
the table.
And if we can't do that,
then this isn't the right spot.
You need to do, I think...
Myself as a second career PT,
I was under the impression before PT
school,
it's going to make people's heads explode.
I thought we got some sort of magic
level hands.
I did.
I thought we'd learn some tricks.
I was waiting to come to Thanksgiving with
family and be like, watch this, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then be like, bam,
your back pain's gone.
And then I'm sitting there in PT school
going, oh, crap, it never happened.
But that's okay because it's real, right?
But the same,
and this is where my question to Dan
or whatever is,
it's the same in a C-suite.
They're like, we need more.
These are the two areas I operate in
healthcare, right?
We need more providers.
That's a communications problem.
I know you're like,
that's talent acquisition.
That's below talent acquisition.
People, you need people to understand.
Do you know how many times I slide
into people's comment sections on LinkedIn
when it's a clear repost of a job
post?
Do you see me doing this?
Yes.
And since you mentioned it last time,
I've been watching these posts.
It doesn't go well.
No, no.
I'm okay with it because the other people
want... So let's play this out.
Rebecca,
you're hiring at XYZ Physical Therapy in
Colorado and your job post is one sentence
and it says what?
Now hiring.
know someone hiring yeah and i just go
and i go into comments and i go
why should i why is working there
different than any other clinic in your
town and then the person is like offended
i can smell it through linkedin i'm okay
with it they'll either they'll be like
let's why don't we set up a phone
call and talk about it i'm like why
would i give you forty eight seconds on
the phone if you can't even get my
attention now keep in mind i'm never i'm
not applying for a clinical job what i'm
trying to do is show in public that
you've given no people
a reason to take one quarter of a
step forward.
Yeah.
So the two areas I work in are
talent acquisition,
but I don't call it talent acquisition.
I call it,
I'm in the attention department.
I'm never applying for a job in the
marketing department again.
I don't want to come run your comms
department either.
I am in the attention department because
that's actually what you need.
Oh, what do we need over here?
We need new patients for this zip code
with these three clinics.
What do we need?
Marketing.
No, you don't.
What do you need?
Attention.
How do we get that?
Don't know.
Don't know the area or what you're
actually good at yet.
It's not marketing.
It's not talent acquisition.
It's not communications.
It's not paid or organic.
It's not reels or ticky-tocks.
You need attention.
Did you just say TikToks?
Yes.
You were like eight hundred years old.
No,
I say it like that because when TikTok
first came out, everybody does this.
And they poo poo.
And all I look at with TikTok is
a generation who's only grown up with
understanding how to get, keep,
earn and attention and deliver information
with brevity.
Yeah.
My generation included and even younger
than me.
Look at how these TikToks are stupid.
Are they, though?
Are they though?
Now, I look deeper.
It's information at brevity.
It's the group telling you for better or
for worse what they value with their time.
I'll give you an example.
People love when I parallel this.
Did I ever talk to you about Disney's
low ride out theory?
Disney was doing social media and vanity
metrics long before the internet.
So you've been to,
I'm guessing to a Disney park,
either land or world.
Which one did you go to?
I've been to both briefly.
Ooh, look at you.
Um, just, I'm telling you, I know.
I'm just kidding.
So you buy a ticket to a Disney
park and you can go on as you
can go on whatever ride you want.
As long as you just pay,
you wait in line, right?
Or you pay for a fast pass because
you value your time more.
So you pay that, right?
TSA for Disney.
Either way,
when you get to the front of the
line that you just spent money and then
time to, you know those three,
those turnstile-y things with the three
prongs?
Why do they have those?
Calculating.
What is it calculating?
Number of people.
Why is that valuable?
So that they know how many people are
waiting in line and how many people they
can get through in an hour.
No, no, no, no.
They could tell you how many people they
can get through in an hour down to
the millisecond.
What they're doing is how many people paid
to come in.
They can calculate that with a cash
register.
How many people paid then spent their
time.
So Disney was smart.
He was like,
I only have fifty thousand acres of swamp
in Florida or whatever.
If I have teacups and teacups gets the
lowest amount of turnstile spins,
it means people cared about it the least.
You're going to get different information
if they fill out a card because
nostalgically,
teacups and Magic Mountain are nostalgia.
But if they're not riding it,
the only way for Disney to bring in
a new ride if he has limited real
estate is to remove a ride.
How does he pick which one?
He lets the audience decide.
He lets them decide themselves.
with their time.
He does not ask them.
I think you're going to get an argument
from physical therapists that say how I am
in real is not going to be reflective
of how I provide patient care.
So how would you like?
Okay.
Explain that again.
Say that again.
Okay.
So you're going to have somebody who's
listening to you and be like, Jimmy,
I like,
I don't care about any of that.
I don't care about social media stuff.
I just want to provide good patient care.
So provide good patient care.
Right.
So why do I need to do any
of this?
don't hire someone who can you do you
do you if your toilet is clogged up
and you can't figure it out do you
hire someone else but again that's your
point right like what's the problem that
we're solving this person wants to provide
exceptional patient care they don't want
to be on instagram and don't give people
to them so they can see them then
don't yep but you will pay for it
then and that's okay because if you're
hiring someone to do that and you're
paying them x but not getting back x
plus y don't work with them anymore but
don't tell me it's broken
Don't try something once and then be like,
it's broken.
I'll go, okay, well,
I went to PT once, doesn't work.
Well, of course not, of course,
what kind of a provider?
And then, oh,
we're so quick to defend that.
You cannot speak out of both sides of
your mouth.
It doesn't work.
Tell me,
help me understand what it looked like the
first time you did that.
There was someone today who was like,
and the numbers don't matter.
There was someone today who said,
and I may or may not agree with
them, but of course I'm going to poke.
If you're spending three thousand dollars
a month on your clinic ads with a
marketing company,
essentially I pay Rebecca.
Here's three thousand dollars, Rebecca,
per month.
You're going to run ads just on Facebook
for me.
But then I say, hey, Rebecca,
how much of that money is Rebecca's money
and how much that money is actually going
to the ads?
Right.
And this person was like,
if you're spending three thousand a month
and fifteen hundred dollars going to
Rebecca and fifteen hundred dollars is
actually going to the ad spend.
Stop doing that.
And I go,
what if the outcome is so fucking good?
What if you're making ten grand off that?
Oh, so you didn't...
We need to compensate people for their
time and expertise.
I said, listen, dude,
I hired Rebecca to fix my toilet.
The parts were a hundred dollars and she
charged me five hundred.
I go, can you take a dump?
Yes.
Then wasn't that the thing we were solving
for?
Now you could have waited and you could
have negotiated someone else to do it
cheaper,
but you couldn't poop until you did.
Which is why you're paying for expertise
and not intervention.
So I went back to that person on
LinkedIn and I was like, well,
hang on a second.
If you're paying fifteen hundred dollars a
month for Rebecca to spend fifteen
hundred,
I would say not enough information to
solve for X. Sorry.
How much did it bring?
If it brought a million dollars, suddenly,
fifteen hundred dollars is a freaking
steal.
If it brought you eleven dollars, yes,
yes.
Ask yourself, what are you doing?
Or go do it yourself.
But then you're like, well, I don't know.
I could spend fifteen hundred dollars and
lose money.
Yes,
which is why you hire someone who knows
how to do it.
Like, this is so funny how people will,
they will talk out both sides of their
mouth.
It's really funny to me.
Not a lot of awareness about it.
No, it's very much like, no,
but I'm the expert.
I'm worth it.
That other guy, not so much.
That other profession.
Oh, you went to a chiropractor?
I've gone a hundred and eighty degrees.
Someone asks me in my personal life,
are chiropractors good?
Here's my stock answer.
I got to be honest.
I don't know a lot about what they
learn in school.
But have you gone to one?
Yeah.
How'd you feel when you left?
I felt great.
Feels good to me.
Keep going.
That's it.
When you move the goalposts closer,
suddenly kicking field goals is a lot
easier.
My goal is not to sell you on
anything.
In fact,
I don't think I've ever sold anybody on
anything.
My job is to achieve understanding.
What if I were to say, well,
vertebral artery dissection?
It's not what they were asking.
That's like on the first date being like,
you have three choices if you meet a
girl at a bar.
I can stand there and talk about me.
I can stand there and talk about the
other guy who's been hitting on you all
night.
Or I could talk about you.
Which one do you think is going to
lead to a phone number?
Best odds.
I got to be honest.
I'm going with option three.
We don't do that.
We talk crap about the other guy.
We inflate ourselves and we wonder why
people don't move closer and they only
move further away.
Right.
And that goes back to motivational
interviewing for your patients too.
Now,
doing this in person one-to-one would be
exhausting.
Is there a way, Rebecca,
we could do this on the interwebs at
scale?
I would say yes.
I would say that is the best way
in
Simple, not easy,
which is in fact why you hire someone,
not necessarily me, it's not a pitch.
Get someone who's good at it,
likes doing it,
will show up with a good attitude to
learn and do it better every day.
And that is my friend who I would
hire to work in the attention department
right next to me.
So say you have somebody who's just like
a clinician.
They can't hire anybody or they want to
start their own social media.
They want to start their own Instagram.
Hold on.
No, no, no.
Not yet.
Don't you dare tell me an intervention
before I know what the problem is.
So let's go back to...
I'm coming to you.
Good.
It's my New Year's resolution.
I want to start social media.
I want to be a PT influencer.
Got it.
What would you tell that person?
How would you help that person start?
Yeah.
Why do you want to do that?
this fictitious person just thinks it
looks fun.
Looks fun?
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Grab a phone.
What have you seen online outside of your
profession that you're like,
I'd like to do something like that.
I'd like to do one of those videos
where I'm on camera and there's a thing
behind me and I'm commenting on it.
Okay, great.
Do that.
Have you done it yet?
Cost you zero dollars.
You could probably Google how to do that.
the next four and a half seconds and
do it.
Have you done it?
Do it.
The barrier to entry is on God.
It's not low.
It's on the, it's below the floor.
The barrier to entry is below the floor.
Well,
and I don't even think it's that I
think for a lot of people,
it's just like this fear of getting
started.
And now we're talking about psychology.
Okay.
Why, Rebecca,
why haven't you done that yet?
Well,
so I will tell you when I started,
it was just like afraid of what other
people would think.
Okay.
I can't help you with that.
I'm very sorry.
Totally.
That's in your brain.
Yep.
Rebecca, Rebecca, Rebecca,
hang on a second.
So if you make a video and people
don't like it,
you know how the algorithms work.
It's just not going to show it to
more people.
So you've failed in front of eleven
strangers that you'll never have to look
in the eye.
Suddenly, what are the stakes?
What's at stake here?
I think it's just really like how you
feel about it.
I won this also this idea is like
is for one person like Rebecca the
fictitious person Rebecca because Rebecca
now does show up regularly with
communications and it has led to success I
won't even talk about what your last
screenshot to me via email so great job
there do you remember what I'm talking
about yes that means someone watched
something somewhere that you did and then
said I love you come work come come
teach me and do your thing um
This psychology at play is for individuals
and companies because companies are made
of people.
Right.
They will fail because they refuse to act.
Even harder because now instead of me
trying to move a speedboat,
I've got to move an aircraft carrier.
Companies hate this because of fear.
And to tell you the truth,
I feel like personally for me,
it was like people that I knew well
were less supportive than people I'd never
met.
Do you want to know why?
Tell me.
People want you to do well.
They just don't want you to do better
than them.
Oh, that's not nice.
It isn't.
It's not on purpose.
Because if we're equals, Rebecca,
and next you do something tomorrow,
I'm the communications guy.
I'm the attention guy.
If you do something on Instagram tomorrow
and blow up and get a million followers,
that didn't change me.
But now I feel a distance between you
and I. I want you to do well.
I just don't want you to do better
than me.
I heard someone say that and holy crap,
are they right?
But we rise by lifting others.
I'm like, why?
I know, but I want to lift you.
I don't want you to have to lift.
I want to be, I just,
we could be next to each other.
You just be half a step behind.
Well, and I mean, I don't know.
Like,
I just feel like show up for your
people.
I agree.
And the people that consistently do who
have that as part of their personality.
are very happy.
Sky Donovan is a perfect example of this.
Sky, you remember the movie The Matrix?
The bullet scene where Neo's...
I just watched it with my
sixteen-year-old.
Sky Donovan is the person who will dodge
praise like Neo dodges bullets.
And while she's dodging praise,
she's flinging other people into the line
of fire.
But here bullets in my analogy,
bullets are good thing.
She's trying to get other people praise
and she's avoiding it like it's the
plague.
She is not the only person who does
this.
I'm just pointing it out because she's the
person in my life who's constantly putting
me in situations to win.
Those people win big.
It just takes longer and it's harder.
And I hope the payoff is bigger.
You can do that as a company.
I just feel too like it's a scarcity
mindset.
And I think as a profession,
we have that too.
Yeah, it's not cake, but I get it.
This is humans.
The theory of loss aversion,
where if you said you're going to run
a mile,
and if you get below this time,
you're going to lose a hundred dollars.
Sorry, if you get above this time,
you're going to lose a hundred dollars.
If you get below this time,
you're going to make a hundred dollars.
According to psychology,
and from my lame understanding of
psychology,
people will run faster to not lose the
one hundred dollars they already have in
their bank account versus win the hundred
dollars that they don't have yet.
That is called loss aversion.
People are more apt to be afraid and
act.
This is where people will be like, well,
your marketing is fear mongering.
I'm like, no,
that ad is playing on loss aversion.
oh gosh oh lord that it is very
powerful which is why you see a lot
of like you can you could write the
same ad or message this goes across
anything you write the same ad or message
two different ways one showing somebody
how we one showing something how we we
can save legislators money
I will bring you money or prevent loss.
The prevent loss angle works better
because we're big dumb animals and loss
aversion is a thing.
A lot of the titles of my episodes
are based on loss aversion.
Subscribe and never miss an episode.
You mean if I don't do it,
I'm going to miss something?
Yes.
Click, click.
We're big dumb animals.
Like,
I don't want to lose this line of
business,
so I'm not going to try this new
thing.
Correct.
Loss aversion is terribly powerful.
It's never taught to us.
We just know.
That's when you know it's part of the
operating system.
That's what you key in on.
Ew.
You don't have to fearmonger to use this
for good.
Look at all the clickbait.
See which star had a wardrobe malfunction
tomorrow.
I have to know.
Well, if you scroll past,
you're going to lose the opportunity to
know.
It's baked into the cake.
But we as providers,
we as healthcare people, we are good.
And I'm going to tell you all about
the things that you'll get.
Tell me about the things that I will
lose.
Well, you can still lift your grandkids.
If you don't do this,
you'll never lift your grandchild out of
their high chair again.
Same idea, different messaging,
different emotions, different results.
Well,
it does work because I tell you what,
I did hear that quote that they say
that you'll pick up your child for the
last time and you won't know.
And you've been lifting your damn kids
every damn day.
Oh,
I still pick up my sixteen-year-old and my
fourteen-year-old and I carry them as far
as I can just to make sure that
I can still do it.
I even pick up my husband just to
make sure that I can do it.
So it works.
I don't want to lose that.
I saw two kids that I grew up
on the same street with.
And now that I live back in my
hometown, as of last two, three years,
I ran into these two brothers.
They're the same age as me and my
brother.
So like mirrors.
So I played baseball with the older
brother and my younger brother.
And I ran into these two brothers.
And I remember that line that was similar
because I don't have kids.
But that line is like you and your
friends from your neighborhood all went
home after playing together at the last
time.
He just never knew it.
Because we do street hockey, kickball,
wiffle ball, whatever.
It wasn't even a question.
It was every day in the summer.
Until one day, it wasn't ever again.
That is two things.
That's loss and nostalgia.
Now,
what could you sell for loss and
nostalgia?
I bought an app over the Christmas break
called PhotoMine.
It takes all those photos and I barely
snap a picture and it crops it and
judges it, digitize it,
and puts it in a lockbox that I'll
never lose.
Yeah, that was worth sixty bucks.
Yeah, it is.
They didn't sell me photos.
They sold me loss.
If you wait on that photo,
it's going to get moldy and you'll never
have that memory again.
So it's loss and nostalgia.
Two very powerful emotions.
Well,
the nostalgia thing is so real because all
the nineties fashion and things that are
out again right now,
except I have adult money.
Do you know how much adult money I'd
be spending on nineties nostalgia?
which is why you,
my business idea over Christmas might've
had a half a bottle of Chardonnay was
I want to do an ice cream.
I want a fleet of ice cream trucks.
You hire me when you have a moment,
your kid's birthday party, your birthday,
a graduation,
a confirmation or a communion.
Okay.
Ice cream truck.
But what are we doing for?
Where are we?
Am I solving an ice cream problem?
Solving a fun problem.
I roll up and I make the math
simple.
One price, three hours,
all the ice cream your guests can eat.
Up to and including this amount.
Like there's got to be a cap, right?
But also for the adults,
we're going to do some like froses, right?
I'll have a couple of blenders in there
with some roses and whatever.
I'll have the cornhole boards that I kick
out.
I might roll around.
We've got some places around here that
have llamas.
I'm going to roll up with a petting
zoo.
All these are upsells.
But you don't sell ice cream out of
a truck.
That's a transaction.
I want to sell a transformation.
I'm going to turn your backyard into a
party.
Take your nineties nostalgia.
Dude, call yourself the Max.
We bring the Max from Saved by the
Bell to your house.
We come in and we throw up nineties
kitsch all over your house.
There it is.
We've got the friends frame around your
door,
around the little thing you look through
in your front door.
We've got everything.
Everything.
The music we're playing, nineties music.
You're not solving for that because you
could do that yourself.
But I'm going to be able to do
it at scale for less than you.
And you're not going to have to do
anything except swipe your card right
here.
Well,
and I love doing things by credit card.
If in twenty twenty six,
we started this episode off by saying what
people are leaving behind.
I got to be honest.
And I'm not in the day to day
operations of things.
I'm not.
But if I can't schedule an appointment
with you.
on my phone in three clicks or less,
you are bleeding money.
I don't get paid by an EHR or
any of those tech companies.
If you can't do it in three steps
or less, bleeding money.
And, and,
and one of the steps can't be go
into your pocket and give me a number
that you don't have memorized.
Why do I look...
I find things on Amazon from a video...
Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
I find things on Instagram in a video
and it says shop here.
If it takes me to your website and
you don't have my information saved,
what I'm going to do next is remember
the name of your company,
go to Amazon and search to see if
I can buy.
Why?
I'll even pay a little more because I
don't want to take the card out of
my pocket.
I don't trust you with my information.
Even more basic than trust you,
I don't want to have to walk across
the room to get it.
And if you think I'm being ridiculous and
that people wouldn't lose sales over this,
I'm right.
You're wrong.
Fight me.
I'm right.
I get those emails that are like,
are you still shopping?
Like you abandoned your cart.
So...
I don't, I don't know.
So understand emotional,
psychological drivers.
And if you're, so back to you, Rebecca,
who wants to be an influencer tomorrow,
I would say if you were,
if in ninety days,
if we were to work together,
you would be known for one thing on
the interwebs.
What would it be?
And I don't care what your answer is.
Whatever the answer is,
we work backwards from that because that's
the goal.
Because you can't be known for fifty
things.
Not, not at first.
Well, I think that's the problem.
A lot of people don't know what that
thing is.
No one can help you.
Then you need to be a very good
dancer or be very pretty.
Because you could be known for being a
very good dancer or being very pretty.
I can't be known for either.
Yeah.
I'm going to need to level up.
I have good hair, but I can't dance.
So we started this episode off by saying,
here are the things I'm leaving behind in
twenty twenty five.
We got nine minutes left.
What are the things you want to bring
into your life in twenty twenty six?
What are the bad ad parts?
Well, gosh,
I think I need to be the person
that runs for the hundred dollars.
run for the hundred dollars instead of
running to not lose a hundred yes at
the end of the run you still have
this well no you would have more you
would have a hundred more dollars that's
where my math goes wrong but how much
of your life is spent just trying to
not lose stuff versus going for the level
up thing yeah i think i need to
do that and then the other thing my
business coach she sent me a voicemail and
she's like you have this really good skill
of like doing all these really great
things and then making it not bad
What does that mean, making it not that?
She's like,
you do these really great things,
and then you're like, oh,
that was nothing.
So minimizing what I've done.
Don't minimize, yeah.
And she's like, you make it into nothing.
Don't do that.
You are a wizard.
You don't have to maximize.
You don't have to make it look like
it's something it's not.
But yeah, I had someone,
Sky Donovan pulled me aside,
and he's like,
you tell people that what you're doing is
super easy a lot.
And I was like, it is.
And she goes, yeah, to you.
I've got a buddy who's an auto mechanic
and him doing something under a hood is
very easy to him.
To me, it's magic.
I'm like, I don't know what you did.
You opened a thing.
You looked at a bunch of things that
look like spaghetti to me.
And you were like, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, what did you do?
And he's like, no, it's super easy.
Yes,
because you spent seventeen years under
hoods.
Yes.
So I also think I just have this
like long standing habit of minimizing
anything that I've done.
I feel like I don't make a big
deal out of it, but otherwise,
so I need to leave that behind.
I'm bringing that energy into like
celebration energy and like, I don't know,
being present.
Being present is good.
I think so.
I'm going to ask more.
Okay.
Which is I,
talk on this podcast or live stream,
whatever it might be.
I'm going to be more obvious and more
direct.
Hey, I see what you're doing.
I think if we worked together,
I could actually cause you to go from
here to here.
Do you want to find out?
Would that conversation potentially cause
you from losing something you've already
gotten?
Why I lose momentum.
Thirty minutes?
I might be completely wrong for this.
I might be wrong.
But what if I'm not?
And you didn't...
Would that be worth thirty minutes to
potentially not lose a successful idea?
And I've got a lot of conversations.
I've been doing that for the last few
weeks.
I've just decided to go on offense and
not defense.
There it is.
That's the answer.
I said this two years ago.
And I'm pretty sure I said it because
I heard someone else say a better version
of it, which is innovators play offense,
not defense.
You cannot innovate.
You cannot defend your way to innovation.
That's like shoveling.
It's like trying to save your beach house
by just going into the ocean and taking
the sand and bringing it back up the
hill.
I'm like,
you got to go way out into the
ocean.
You got to bring something else in.
Innovators play offense, not defense.
So I'm not going to wait for someone
to spot and recognize my brilliance.
I don't think I have anything that's
necessarily special or for the next
person.
I'm going to come show you how me
plus you equals better than just you.
But can we talk about how that's like
an amazing analogy for the physical
therapy profession?
Because we keep saying people don't know
what we do.
I'm going to stop waiting for people to
come find me and show them what I'm
good at.
Are you in the tell business or are
you in show business?
I got to be honest.
You got to show me before I'll ever
listen to you.
Yeah.
You got to show before you tell.
If you think about show and tell when
you're in kindergarten and you brought
show and tell thing,
and if you just held your like little
mud ball up in front of people and
you showed them the mud ball,
but you didn't give them any context as
to why this was the most amazing mud
pie on the history of mud pies.
Telling them without the mud ball.
It's boring.
Why do kids, when I go meet,
when I like go to,
if I flew to your house,
your kids might be too old.
But like, if I was, you were like,
this is my friend, Jimmy.
Like for some reason,
like five to nine year olds are like,
do you want to see my room?
Well, yeah.
Why don't you just tell me about your
room from here?
Oh, it's a room.
Let me take a guess.
It's got a bed and a desk and
some stuff on the wall.
They want to show you.
Why?
Because you learn faster that way.
It's a deeper, it's a,
it's tell me a story is one thing,
but like really show me the story.
Like, you know how to,
you could just read the book or when
you do the voices,
there's a difference between telling and
showing.
I'm sorry.
There just is.
Yeah.
The voices are obvious.
Tell me a story is boring.
But when you can put depth to it,
if it was just about the words on
the paper, that's a miss.
It's about when Tolkien describes what
Middle Earth looks like.
That guy was nuts.
He had backstories of characters you
barely ran into.
But that's why he created an entire world
of stuff.
Yeah,
I never made it through any of that.
That's okay.
What was your deep thing?
Stranger things?
I just finished the West wing.
That's a story.
Yeah.
All right.
Uh, parting shot.
What do you got?
I think you have to go first today.
Parting shot is I'm going to go on
offense.
I think innovators play offense.
I'm not going to wait around in,
in twenty twenty six.
You'll like this too.
I bought a calendar.
I talked about this in my last episode.
I bought this called the big ass calendar.
It's quite literally just a big dry erase
calendar.
but I'm like, I'm very visual.
And if I write it down now,
I've got to work backwards from now to
then to get it done.
So I'll do,
I'm going to do another triathlon this
year.
I have been sitting on the bench for
a couple of years, a couple of years.
Fuck that.
I'm a triathlete.
It's part of my identity.
So this sort of calendar is a forty
four dollar purchase.
It's not.
But if I use it,
it's a tool to get something way more
money,
way worth way more than a forty four
dollar calendar.
So innovators play offense is my parting
shot.
Okay,
I think mine is that I am going
to just go for it.
What is it?
We're going for it.
What's it?
How do we know what we've got there?
I just think whatever it is.
Because I saw a thing that was like,
if you can't get out of it,
get into it.
I'm going to get into it.
Whatever it is,
I'm going to get into it.
All right.
If people want to reach you?
The EDDPT on all socials or eddpt.com.
All right, kids.
We'll have a better name for the live
stream recurring.
I feel like books and stuff.
We haven't, we can talk about a book.
Maybe, maybe stuff is actually,
it's more ambiguous,
but it's more interesting.
Stuff and things.
All right.
We'll workshop it.
Rebecca Griffith, the EDDPT.
We'll talk again.
That's it for this one,
but we're just getting warmed up.
Smash follow, send it to a friend,
or crank up the next episode.
Want to go deeper?
Hit us at pgpinecast.com or find us on
YouTube and socials at pgpinecast.
And legally, none of this was advice.
It's for entertainment purposes only.
Bullshit!
See, Keith?
We read the script.
Happy now?