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All right,
if you think you need another specialist
certification to treat someone with
Parkinson's or that RTM is just another
way to squeeze in some extra units,
this episode might change your mind.
Today's guest is the kind of PT who's
helping the profession meet the moment
from the clinic to the classroom to the
emerging world of digital health.
He treats movement disorders,
teaches students, advises clinics on RTM,
and still somehow has time for disc golf.
From Arkansas to AI and everything in
between, let's bring in our guest,
Phil McKelvey.
Phil, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Jimmy.
You've got a lot in there.
I do want to start with the most
important.
How do I get better at disc golf?
Because I'm good at throwing Frisbees,
but for some reason I'm terrible at disc
golf.
What am I doing wrong?
It's very different.
Yeah, it's all about the technique.
They're more like airplane wings than
regular Frisbees.
There's lots of great YouTube channels out
there that can help you.
Come to Arkansas.
There we go.
It's a great sport.
So, Phil, snapshot of you.
What's your superhero backstory so people
catch up besides disc golf?
Yeah, so I'm a PT in Central Arkansas.
I married one of my PT classmates.
We've been married for going on nine
years.
She's an awesome therapist.
And then we have two kids.
I treat primarily neuro and vestibular
disorders now,
though I started out like your typical
sports ortho guy out of PT school for
more of my career than I've done this.
Just had a little transition change.
Yeah.
And then I got interested in kind of
the digital side of PT with an article
in the APTA magazine about RTM.
I'd randomly read it and I've just kind
of been running down that rabbit hole for
a while now and it hasn't stopped me
yet.
You've also got a little more family tree,
a little PT family tree.
I do.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So my father-in-law is a PT in Southeast
Arkansas.
I actually have a cousin-in-law who's a PT
in Texas.
So there's a lot of us.
Did you ask permission before you popped
the question to your PT school classmate?
Was that something that you did?
I did.
So I asked her mom and her dad
together because I knew that would be
important to them.
As I asked that question, I was like,
man, he might say no.
Yeah, then what do we go?
Yeah, I did.
That must have been cool for him.
And, you know,
maybe we'll get him on the show eventually
later.
But that must have been cool from the
side note, which is like, oh,
that's awesome.
Like she went to PT school.
Look at that.
She found another one of us.
Or was he like, hey –
never gonna be a millionaire we're gonna
do good in the world change the world
yeah wouldn't it be great if you know
yeah no he was he's uh an awesome
built-in mentor he's someone who's been in
the profession for a long time but never
became a dinosaur just keeps learning so
i've i've i've thrown so many questions at
him over the years that have been glad
to have him in my corner so that's
a great point is um dinosaur doesn't
actually only mean old when you're talking
about someone who's old and crusty
There's a lot of people who I know
who are, quote, older age wise,
but I do not like they do not
give dinosaur vibes.
And you're like, that's awesome.
Like it's and it's life goals.
Yeah,
it's a choice because they plug in and
keep learning.
Yeah,
which is why you could subscribe to this
podcast just by going to Apple Podcasts.
No, okay.
But it is a good point,
which is like the people who listen to
not just my podcast,
but podcasts in general or seek those
things out, they're active, not passive.
Those are the people who don't get crusty
and rusty, like typically.
Yeah.
It's not just you pay the two thousand
bucks for the weekend course.
It's what do you do the other three
hundred and sixty four days a year?
Can you dip your toe?
All right.
Enough padding podcasts on the back.
What do you let's go big picture question
first.
What do you think more?
What do you wish more physical therapists
understood?
about treating patients with Parkinson's
disease.
Especially,
we talked about this before we hit record,
especially generalists who might only see
it once in a while,
who might be like,
I'm picturing some of my PT school
classmates.
I'm an ortho bro.
And then they look at their schedule and
they're like, what's this?
What do you wish that person,
those people knew more about that?
Yeah.
And those are the exact people this is
for.
This isn't for your neuro experts.
They know probably no more than I do.
I've I've done certifications on
Parkinson's.
I'm not against those by any means.
I'm all for the amplitude based training,
the power, the big, all that stuff.
But if you're a generalist and you live
in a rural area or you live in
a city where and this had this
relationship with someone,
they develop Parkinson's and they want you
and no one else.
You need to know that you just need
to bump their intensity on whatever they
enjoy doing.
Especially if you're a rural therapist,
they don't need,
you got to find out what's going to
be done safely for them.
And maybe that looks like an exercise
bike,
but that doesn't look like an exercise
bike,
just pedaling around in a circle for ten
minutes.
That looks like doing interval sprints
where you're twenty seconds on,
forty seconds off as hard as they can
go and then coasting.
Sounds like a HIIT workout, bro.
What are you talking about?
It is a HIIT workout.
Yeah.
So if you're an ortho bro,
and you've ever worked out a high level
athlete and taking them through some
cardio return, like you can do,
you can do it.
I'm not saying you're going to be as
good as someone who only does this all
the time.
Cause that's impossible,
but you can give that person meaningful
neuroplastic change and drive a really
good session and, and,
change their perspective on exercise
whether you you know have done lsvt big
power rock steady or just kind of you
know know how to work somebody out get
them in thirteen to seventeen on the rpe
range and keep them there yeah and that'll
that'll get you eighty ninety percent of
the way there
This is by no means knocking the LSV,
the power, the rock steady.
I use it every day.
It's just saying that you probably have
more skills in your toolbox than you give
yourself credit for.
It might look different,
but you probably know.
So you mentioned intensity, right?
is greater than protocol frequency.
So let's see if I can remember these
things.
And my ex-phys professor will be excited.
Sky Donovan, frequency and time,
frequency, intensity, time, type, volume,
progression.
Those are your tools, man.
Yeah.
Those are your seven dwarfs, right?
If you had to rank them,
you're supposed to love all your fit VP
equally,
but what is the hierarchy of this?
You've already said intensity,
so we know the I is probably up
there.
What comes next?
Frequency?
It's probably number one.
Frequency and time.
Parkinson's Foundation recommends a
hundred and fifty minutes a week for
someone with Parkinson's as the floor.
It is a lot.
It's thirty minutes five times a week and
moderate to vigorous intensity.
Getting going where you could
maintain a walk but you're kind of you're
having to talk a little bit like this
maybe yes and then the the type to
me is a little less important it's
whatever is going to get you exercising
that much the aerobic is the one that's
talked about the most and i think that
falls back to that's just the easiest to
research um
If you're if you're a former lifter and
you want to get into some lifting,
like still do some aerobic, but go ahead,
lift some weights, knock yourself out.
Like, I mean, don't really.
But, you know,
if that's your if that's what's going to
get you going for one hundred and fifty
minutes a week,
like we need to get you going for
one hundred and fifty minutes a week
because the the the thing is, like,
if you're not doing it,
it's not going to do you any good.
So if I tell somebody you need to
get on a bike one hundred fifty minutes
a week or go for a walk,
what's the point?
You know?
Yeah.
I got to get, it could be dancing,
you know,
ballroom dancing or something like that.
Like it doesn't have to look like
exercise.
It has to look like intensity,
heart rate up, like moving quickly.
But yeah, that's,
that's where I would rate the,
the most of those things.
Yeah.
What's the best exercise to do for insert,
fill in the blank,
the one you like doing,
the one you're gonna do, right?
Yeah.
We've seen that research in low back pain
for years, getting people moving,
whatever it is,
if they're going to stick with it,
it's going to do better than maybe the
perfect thing that they never do.
Yeah, the perfect exercise you never do.
I know it's better than that.
It's a pretty good exercise that you do
a lot.
My brother's big, man.
He's six four.
He's a big dude.
He just doesn't like lifting that much.
so he'd rather go skate at our local
rink and do and he likes the Stairmaster
for some reason so he goes is that
bad for me I go Stairmaster it up
bro I'm like Stairmaster now you want to
get stronger on the ice you want to
skate faster I want you to do some
single leg stuff or I want you to
deadlift or squat but like if you don't
like it me throwing it at you now
it feels like I'm judging you now we
get into psychology of it I bet which
really matters
which really matters too.
And it especially matters when you're
talking about someone who suffers from a
disorder that causes apathy and depression
for a lot of these patients.
So if, you know,
it's hard enough for me to go exercise
and I don't have something like that
hitting me down, a good percentage,
I don't know the numbers,
but these patients will deal with one of
those two symptoms for a
What were they again?
Apathy and depression.
Depression makes it hard to go along.
Yeah, it's hard to get moving for anybody.
But if you're if you're you know,
if your diagnosis is making you a little
apathetic, God, I don't know.
How are you going to get that person
to exercise and giving them something that
they enjoy doing is going to really help
get them going a lot more than just
give them the perfect stuff.
Yeah.
We did mention things like power, LSVT,
Rocksteady.
And believe me,
I've only heard good things about
neurotherapists who've gone through those.
But what's a step before that?
What's the first date?
Is there something free?
Is there someone with a badass YouTube
channel or a badass Instagram?
What do you got?
Absolutely.
There's some good free stuff for patients
and clinicians.
I really like Rogue Physical Therapy.
They're in Orange County, California.
They're in a big enough area where they
just specialize in people with
Parkinson's.
That's all they do.
And it's a lot of cash based.
I think there might be some insurance
based stuff there,
but they have a free YouTube channel and
they have a paid YouTube channel for
patients.
But if you're a clinician looking for some
exercise ideas or a person with
Parkinson's looking for some exercise
idea,
go hit up their free channel and
Good artists create, great artists steal.
Just take a lot of their ideas and
put it into your patient.
And then there's one called Power for
Parkinson's out of Austin, Texas.
It's a nonprofit, P-O-W-E-R,
not the Parkinson's Wellness Recovery
Parkinson's.
They have a lot of chair-based exercises,
if that's the appropriate level for your
patient or your
your loved one with parkinson's and that's
all free stuff so eat that up um
i don't want to hype too many podcasts
on your podcast but the i love neuro
podcast has a bunch on parkinson's yeah
that would be like those three resources
just go to i love neuro and scroll
through there there's you're gonna see
within a year ten parkinson's podcast pick
one on a topic that interests you and
give it a listen
always hype other podcasts i think that's
right all podcasts raise other podcasts i
do not think it is not straight if
you listen to one podcast it's not like
there's less cake for other people it's
like more breeds more breeds more rising
tides raise all boats
Do not disagree there.
Definitely agree.
What else am I not asking about this?
Because we're going to switch topics,
but I want to make sure we don't
leave this until you're like,
I really wanted to talk about this.
What is the last thing you'd say to
maybe this avatar of outpatient ortho
person who might have someone on
Parkinson's on their schedule?
Anything I didn't ask that opened a door
for you?
uh you we covered most of it i
would just say don't be afraid to push
these people um they may seem like they're
they're not there to work hard um i
work with them every day and i can
tell you like um they're some of the
nicest people i ever meet i don't know
what that is about someone who suffers
from parkinson's but they tend to be
incredibly nice and they tend to be
willing to work incredibly hard because
they see the benefits and know the
benefits so don't don't feel like i can't
push this person because you know um
They're seventy years old and they've got
a tremor and they've got this flat affect
like that person can go.
Then they will go if you just coach
them to get there, you know,
progressively load them to that point.
But don't feel like you can't push someone
with Parkinson's.
Yeah.
Do not underdose safety first.
That's right.
Yeah.
Right.
And there's there's great.
Like I said, I mean,
a bike or a stepper,
if that's what they can do for for
the intensity part and you need to do
some other stuff in sitting.
Get their intensity on the bike or the
stepper.
That's fine.
Okay.
I like that.
All right.
Let's switch gears.
Before we do that,
let's just take a little quick break.
All right.
Taking a quick break.
Got to help.
We got to pay the bills, man.
We got to keep the YouTube on here.
Thanks to our friends at Empower EMR.
It's like the opposite of a clunky system
that you secretly hate.
Empower EMR is smooth, smart,
and helps you run your clinic.
not wrestle with it.
Check them out at EmpowerEMR.
That's EmpowerEMR.com.
And I want you to know about good
causes.
We love good causes.
We want to give a microphone to the
good cause.
This one's cool.
It's called One More Wave.
They help wounded and disabled veterans
heal through surfing.
Yes.
I can already hear the PTs wanting to
volunteer.
It's there.
It's not just surfboards, though.
They're taking custom adaptive boards
designed for each vet,
It's therapy.
It's waves.
It's purpose.
Just check them out.
Hit onemorewave.com to donate,
get involved,
or just watch someone catch a wave with
a prosthetic leg and a huge smile and
try not to get inspired or maybe shed
a tear a little bit.
So onemorewave.com.
Let's change gears here with Phil.
First of all,
we got to paint the picture.
What exactly is RTM and why should people
care?
You found out in a magazine and you
were like, this is great.
And then you dove in for the person
who doesn't, who hasn't dove in yet.
How do you paint the picture?
Yeah,
RTM is just remote therapeutic monitoring.
So it's just a way for therapists to
keep up with what's happening outside of
the clinic, pain, home exercise adherence.
Some of them will do step counts,
activity levels, and patient messaging,
phone calls, or messaging through the app.
So it's a lot of what we do
already.
If you're doing what I feel like I
should be doing and creating programs and
keeping up with the patient,
it's just done in a way that's now
billable.
Yeah, that might sound overwhelming.
I've heard from people who've been like,
I hear what it is,
but that feels like it's adding a lot
more work,
which if you're doing a SWOT analysis,
that's like a weakness or a threat.
But if you're smart,
like some tech companies,
they look at it like an opportunity.
Here's this road with a bump in it.
How do I make it smoother?
So there are companies who do that.
There are organizations that go, hey,
you do the PT part,
we'll do the tech part.
And when we merge,
you're going to make more than...
You're going to pay us something because
we're doing work,
but you're going to make more and be
able to help more even after you pay
us.
So I want to throw that out there.
There are apps and we can suggest some
or whatever, but...
That's out there.
My next question for you is,
I think we're past RTM is coming, right?
It's like RTM's here, right?
We're recording this at the end of twenty
twenty five.
Whether PTs like it or not,
what's the opportunity here?
What should clinics be doing now to
prepare for twenty twenty six to twenty
seven, twenty eight?
Yeah, so it's definitely here.
It's not ubiquitous by any means.
There's all kinds of places that have
never heard of it.
I talked to PTs that have never heard
of RTM or remote therapeutic monitoring
spelled out.
But it's here and it's going to stay.
Excuse me, CMS, not CSM,
not the conference.
We're really smart.
We're in healthcare.
We name our conference CSM.
Well, a lot of us deal with CMS,
but yeah, I guess.
Yes.
So CMS has made changes to the codes
coming in twenty twenty six that
essentially fill some gaps that used to
were some areas where you couldn't build
someone because they didn't use the app
enough or you didn't interact with them
enough.
They filled some of those gaps next year.
And from what I understand,
any time CMS is making positive changes to
our reimbursement codes like that means
they stay.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it's it's rare, right?
We're used to going in the other
direction.
Yes.
But yeah,
what what you should do now is,
you know, you can reach out to me.
I have a buddy named Matt Jurek who
deals a lot.
Yeah.
So he's a good resource.
And there's there's tons of vendors like I
have some that I prefer.
We can talk about that off.
off mic if you or you can give
him a shout out if you want like
yeah yeah so uh orva is a great
one orthopedic virtual assistant i really
like them um i've dealt a little with
um they just changed names i think it's
prompt solutions uh they're integrated
into prompt so if you use prompt those
are the two i'm most familiar with but
i've i've met with several different
companies um
vendors, you know, so there's,
there's a lot.
And, and some of them are just,
I don't like them because they don't fit
the clinic that I'm helping implement.
Some are going to be better for some
things and different for other settings.
Uh, Steve Cohen, show, uh,
is there a health?
Is that him?
Yeah.
yep yep that's a that's a pretty popular
one you see him everywhere in the pt
world like that guy's if you go to
a conference you do spot steve have you
seen him in person at a conference yeah
i saw him last year and he's like
he wears like the uncomfortably colored uh
track suits and i think it's like at
first glance you're like that's ridiculous
and that's
it is why he's doing it i remember
seeing him so it worked you know yes
yeah but that that one is more of
a text messaging platform so you don't
have to have the smartphone use you can
you know which some a lot of these
rely on apps so that one you know
takes that out of the equation if you
have older patients so you think can't do
apps but um yeah so you know reach
out to somebody find a podcast there's a
lot that's that's how i started learning
about it just a little bit as i'm
sure i listen to
Matt Jurek was one of our most listened
to episodes in twenty twenty might have
been the end of twenty three.
And we might have been talking about that
long.
But he came in.
Yeah, that's how I found him.
Yeah.
He came in and was like,
I understand this.
And that's what he does.
Like not to get too much into Jurek.
he drives around the country in an RV
with his family and just like does cool
stuff.
And then he jumps on my laptop and
he does this for clinics and he goes,
they pay me and they're still making
enough money to make the F the juice
worth the squeeze.
And I'm like, Oh,
this is intersection of opportunity meets
elbow grease.
And I love those.
Me and Matt met,
he was in Arkansas when I reached out
to him on LinkedIn and we just kind
of met halfway, uh,
over beers and talked through the whole
rtm thing learned a lot so he's he's
a great resource he gets it from two
uh number one he understands the tech
technology enough and he also meets you on
the other side because he's a pt he's
like i've been there i've been on the
other side i know that this seems like
it's going to be a pain in the
ass but watch watch me remove every one
of your um barriers or every one of
your objections and if we can do it
this smooth would you do it and when
people you have to commit
There is some work.
There's going to be a lot of work
in the beginning.
And then the amount of work is going
to fade out and you're going to get
no return in the beginning.
But then the return is only going to
compound.
And, you know, luck favors the bold.
Yeah.
And in a, you know,
it's twenty twenty five,
almost twenty twenty six.
Everyone has gone digital in the world.
I mean, airplanes, finance, you know,
those are big things.
It makes sense.
But like food delivery, the fitness world,
like your smartphone knows more about your
activity than your PT does.
So why don't we utilize that to let
your PT know these same things, right?
Like the person who's guiding your
movement and care should know what,
you know,
just your app within your smartphone knows
or your Garmin watch knows this.
That's what RTM is trying to come from.
It's trying to catch us up with the
rest of the world.
Yep.
Um,
How can people reach you?
You said reach out to me.
What's the, I want you to say it.
Sure.
Easiest way to find me would be,
I'll give you three ways.
So my email is just philmckelvey at
gmail.com.
I'm on LinkedIn, Philip McKelvey.
And then my Instagram is philmckelvey.dpt.
So you can reach,
reach out on any of those.
I'd be happy to talk to you.
Let's talk about you for a second.
You juggle a lot.
In your intro, I mentioned clinician life,
education, entrepreneurship, advocacy,
son-in-law to another PT,
so I'm sure he's always watching.
I'm sure he's always eyeballing you.
Your better half is also a physical
therapist, too.
How do those roles feed each other,
and what keeps someone like you curious?
Yeah,
so I'm the kind of person that comes
up with lots of ideas and then I
drop a lot of those ideas.
But if something continues to excite me
for, you know,
while I'm learning about it week after
week, month after month,
I kind of run it past my wife,
of course.
She's the discerner.
I think you and I have talked about
that before.
But if, yeah, if, if, if that,
if it clears that path and I get
some excitement from it or enjoyment from
it, I just keep running with it until,
until it stops.
So it, you would think like, oh, he's,
he does, there's an adjunct professor,
been doing that for a few semesters.
I do the public relations.
It's Arkansas College of Health
Educations.
What's your logo?
What's the mascot?
I judge schools by mascots and logos.
Oh, I don't know that they really,
I don't know if they really have a
mascot.
So it's just, it's like, yeah,
they should get one.
They have no sports teams.
It's just like, it's like, yeah, but no,
to my knowledge, there's no mascot.
We'll work on it.
Okay.
Keep going.
We'll work on it.
Yeah.
So all of these things like add to
what I, they fill my cup.
Like sometimes, you know, in PT,
the word burnout is everywhere because
it's, it's so easy to hit that.
And dealing with patients with real
problems and real sad things and, and,
and,
that can empty your cup so if you're
not filling into it now i do that
with disc golf and with hiking and camping
and stuff like that but professionally it
keeps me excited about being a pt by
working on outside projects outside of my
you know clinic job nine to five job
and within that job i do some extra
stuff there too so it the key to
me is just finding things that you enjoy
and and going down that and then if
you stop and you know if it doesn't
work then you just stop it you're not
a failure you just you know
you know,
kind of that fail forward mentality.
Yeah.
This is bear grills.
This is myth busters.
You try stuff, you put it out there.
You know,
you've seen that chart before where it's
like success, how we think it goes.
And it's like up into the right.
And then like how actual success is.
And it's like, it's all over the place.
Yeah.
And for me,
like connecting with people is a,
is a real like a fire, you know,
lots of fire me.
So I reach out to people on,
on projects.
Yeah.
It helps, you know,
make me feel engaged and excited in the,
in whether it's APTA or outside of APTA
or like within clinics, like.
That's what the real superpower of APTA
membership is.
We've talked about this before.
I've raged on it on LinkedIn.
I'm not going to stop.
You're not selling CEUs.
You're not selling a newsletter.
You're not selling journal access.
You are selling what Phil was talking
about right now.
companies and it's powerful yeah like the
pts are great people and for the most
part they want to like you can reach
out to people on instagram on a post
where you learn to learn something and
these people can have eight hundred
thousand followers and almost all of them
message you back
I figured that out a decade ago when
Instagram PT was starting to become a
thing.
And I was reaching out to these people
with specific questions I couldn't answer.
And they were just mentoring me via DMs
on Instagram.
Miles, right?
Yeah.
And now some of those people are my
friends.
So it's just really cool.
And so you can do that in lots
of different ways.
I know some people don't feel comfortable
with that, but I encourage it.
That's one way.
Yeah, if they don't respond,
it's because they were too busy,
not because they didn't like you.
It's no big deal.
You're right where you are today.
Yeah, we're going to play a quick game.
Are you ready to play a quick game?
Ready.
Neuro Factor Fiction.
Phil,
since you're deep in the Parkinson's
world,
I'm going to hit you with a few
statements.
You tell us...
If it's neuro, fact, or fiction,
and then you set the record straight.
Coming in hot with three.
Okay.
Only PTs with LSVT big certification
should be treating persons with
Parkinson's disease.
Fact or fiction.
Fiction LSVT big is great.
And it really advanced how we see and
treat people with Parkinson's in relation
to amplitude based training,
but that would severely limit access to
people in, in bigger,
bigger cities or certain areas where neuro
specialists are, are present.
Like it's, it's great.
And those people get great care,
but that's not where everyone with
Parkinson's lives.
So I want anyone who has Parkinson's or
other movement disorders to get quality
care,
whether it makes sense for a PT and
their vicinity to get certified or not.
Number two,
exercise can actually slow down the
progression of Parkinson's disease.
Fact or fiction?
Fact.
There's a ton amount of animal research
that shows this.
Human research is a lot harder to do.
They're working on the studies.
But I mean, functionally, mood wise,
et cetera,
it's going to improve everything.
And all of the research I've seen and
all the data is pointing in the direction
that it absolutely slows down progression
of disease.
Now we're going to twist it.
We'll do factor fiction,
but this is about RTM.
I'll slide in an RTM question in there.
RTM is just a billing trick.
Is it a billing trick fact or is
it a bill?
It's not a billing trick fiction.
What do you think?
I'd go with fiction.
It can be.
It shouldn't be.
I don't think people that are implementing
it are using it that way because it's
too much work to get going on to
just make a few extra bucks.
And it can really offset some Medicare
cuts and make you some money.
But what it is,
it's a way to better engage your patients
and a way to better understand their
recovery.
There it is.
All right.
You're off the hot seat.
That's fact or fiction.
The last thing we do on most episodes.
Where's my button?
I got a button.
Here we go.
This is the parting shot.
Parting shot.
Your last chance for a mic drop moment.
I want to say thanks to AOMT.
If you know, you know,
AOMT is where orthopedic manual physical
therapists go to connect,
grow and sharpen their craft.
Join the movement.
at a-ompt.org that's a-a-o-m-p-t.org
thanks for supporting the show parting
shot your last chance for a mic drop
moment what are you leaving with the
audience today
I'm going to get off both topics and
just say, you know, work hard, be kind.
So my dad was one of the biggest
influences on my life.
And if I could boil down everything I
learned from that guy for to be a
successful human and have a happy life,
work hard, be kind.
It doesn't even have to be in that
order.
You know, be kind,
work hard and you're going to go
somewhere.
Love it.
You want to give a shout out to
your state chapter as well.
That's how we connected was through your
state.
That is.
Yeah.
So I'm from Arkansas.
So if you're a PT in Arkansas,
reach out to me or someone about being
a member of what that means.
We're trying to figure out what people
want and don't want and make it better.
So, you know,
reach out to myself or one of the
other.
Yeah, we're trying to grow it.
So reach out.
We can talk.
Love it.
Phil, appreciate the time.
Thanks so much for for for espousing some
wisdom here on the podcast.
Appreciate that.
I hope I had a little bit.
Thanks for having me, Jimmy.