Katie Sutton of PTA plus.
Good morning.
How are you?
I'm great.
So this is a crossover episode,
but before we start,
I wanted to make sure
people understand who you
are and what PT plus is and
why you did it outside of
me forcing you to do it.
That's not why you did it,
but I did do a little bit
of arm arm twisting,
but hopefully that's not
why you did it and continue to do it.
No.
Um, and I mean, you're right.
You encouraged me and, and,
and kind of have been a huge mentor.
over the last couple of years.
We're coming up on two years.
So that's pretty cool.
What really happened was you
and I were talking about
this and what it would look like.
And I kept coming back to,
there's so many PTAs that
have other things that they do.
And I mean,
you could say this is true for
PTs in any profession as well.
But a lot of the PTAs that I
work with on a regular basis, colleagues,
friends, they also do something else.
So they might be involved in
something else or they might hold
different certifications or
have a side gig or whatever.
And so when we were tossing
around names and everything,
that's where PTA plus came
about because I kept thinking like, well,
they're a PTA plus they do
this and plus they do that.
And so really it's just a
great way to highlight all
of the things that make us
more than just a PTA,
which is a term that I wish
would go away and people
would stop saying so.
For some reason,
PTAs, maybe I'm just noticing it now.
Maybe it's like the red Jeep theory.
When you notice something,
you notice something.
But yeah, what I found is you are very,
very prone to throwing the
word just in front of PTA.
And I don't understand that.
So I'm going to look deeply
into the camera.
Stop doing that.
I'm trying to eliminate that.
I feel like I'm doing my part.
I'm doing what I can to eliminate it.
Yeah.
All right.
So in this crossover episode,
the goal is we'll do this
on a regular basis,
and it'll draw more
attention to not only PTAs,
but to all the PTAs who are
doing plus this, plus that.
But other than that,
we can't just do that.
I want to tell and ask good
questions and share things.
And you brought this for our first episode,
and I'll put it on the
screen so we can go through it.
So this is from James Clear,
and he wrote Atomic Habits.
And he's got a really,
really good newsletter.
I don't get anything if you
sign up for his newsletter,
but it is very,
very clear as his name would allow.
But he's a good thinker.
He takes apart ideas and
flips them over and reverses them.
and tries to figure out what
you're going to take out of it.
So instead of just putting
like a really nice quote on
the screen or on LinkedIn or Twitter,
he dives a little bit deeper.
And so let's go through this
framework that you brought to the table.
I'll read the four qualities
out loud and we'll discuss it.
So the framework is the four
qualities of a great career.
One, two, three, four.
I enjoy it.
I'm good at it.
I make good money and I'm
around fascinating people.
So that is his order.
There's a specific reason
there's an order of the
four qualities of a great career.
But he wants you to answer
these things in reverse order, which are,
where are the fascinating people?
In what ways can I make money with them?
Which ones am I good at?
And which ones do I enjoy?
You brought this to me and
said this is going to be our discussion.
Talk about why.
What about that whole paradigm?
What made you like it and
look into it and get excited by it?
Yeah.
So for me,
this connected very well to PTA
Plus because I just got
done telling you about how
I found it very interesting
that a lot of the PTA
colleagues I have are doing
all of these other things as well.
So I like the reverse order
because I think that this
is something that we tend to forget.
We have all these skills.
We learned this in PT and PTA school,
how to take care of
patients and how to drive
healthcare and how to get
people back to function, whatever,
fill in the blanks.
But we also forget that
those are very translatable.
And so what I like about
this is that I have
done I've utilized this
before in the past so um
those of you who know me I
worked for a dpt program um
before my current role and
I I think that the reason
why I was able to get into
that dpt program is because
I was asking these kind of
questions before I even
knew it was a thing so I
was looking around my area
and where I live and I was like well
who's fascinating or
somebody that I would like to work with?
Who's a college or
university or a healthcare
system that I find fascinating,
that intrigues me,
that I would like to work with?
And what kind of skills do I
bring to the table?
Like, what am I good at?
Why am I, Katie Sutton,
physical therapist assistant,
able to and qualified to
work with this group of people?
What makes it so that I can
connect well with them?
can I make money doing it?
And the answer was yes.
And do I enjoy it?
So like,
this is something that I've used before.
I just didn't know it was a thing,
but I think that PTAs are
probably doing this more
often than what we know.
And that's where, you know,
we have our PTAs that also
do nutrition and health
coaching and personal training and
a director of rehab and you
fill in the blank with
whatever you want to fill
in the blank with is
because people are doing this.
Maybe they don't know it,
but I think it's a good framework.
Like,
why don't we talk about this more
often for somebody who
might feel like they're stuck?
Yeah.
So I've used this framework before,
even so similarly,
like didn't know about it,
but was using it.
But it is nice when people
put words to it.
It's prettier.
And all of a sudden you can
it's not this sort of this idea.
Like sometimes you get I get
a concept and it sort of
feels like a sneeze.
It's like this thing.
I've got it.
There it is.
But then it's gone and now
it's back again.
And oh, my gosh.
And then, you know,
finally you sneeze and it explodes.
So I think this makes
something tangible that
maybe feels intangible first.
So I'll go through it in the
order of the questions he
decide he told you you should ask.
So we're not going through
it with the four qualities.
Enjoy it.
Good at it.
Make money.
And I'm around fascinating people.
But before I do,
I've done full episodes on this before,
because once you sent this,
it made me think of this image.
If you're watching the video,
which is the ICA guy.
which is the Japanese concept,
which means a reason for being.
And you've probably seen
this if you're listening,
even if you're just listening to podcasts,
I can easily describe this image to you.
It's a Venn diagram with
four circles perfectly
aligning and crossing in the middle.
It looks like a lotus.
And of course, Japanese,
very big in the lotus.
And the four circles in Aikigai are
what you love, what the world needs,
what you can be paid for
and what you're good at.
So when I look at the IQ guy
and then I lay over, I enjoy it.
I'm good at it.
I make money.
I can make good money.
I'm around fascinating people.
The only difference there is
that around fascinating people.
So which one is it leaving out?
Love, good, need.
So it's the world, it's like needing it.
But like, if you can make good money at it,
the chance are someone needs it, right?
Unless you can make good
money at being a bank robber.
Like I enjoy being a bank robber.
I'm good at it.
I'm around fascinating people.
So you can apply-
yeah we're not encouraging
being a bank robber but if
you know how to rob a bank
maybe you give me a call um
so let's go into the the
four different questions
right and we'll go into the
order that james clear
decides to ask you to
answer them which is where
are the fascinating people
so the questions I would
ask if I was going to be a
good you know mentor or
advisor I'd say what makes
someone fascinating to you
And this is doesn't sound
very paradigm jumping,
but it is because we assume
that what I think is interesting,
everybody thinks is interesting.
So we must all be the same.
But I remember going into
radio broadcasting young and thinking,
well, of course,
everybody in the world
would think this is the coolest job.
It's going to be the hardest
job in the world to get.
And even amongst my friend group,
them being like, you would have to,
you would have to,
there's no chance in hell I
ever want to go talk into a
microphone every day.
And in my mind, I'm like, I would die.
I would give up a finger to
go talk into a microphone every day.
If you would pay,
I would pay you to do that.
Nevermind.
Would you pay me to do that?
So I'm showing this thing,
what does make someone or
something fascinating in this context?
Because what you think is fascinating,
the next ten people might
think is absolutely boring
or something they would never want to do.
So how should PTs and PTAs
or really anybody?
I think we can just take
that label right off it.
This applies to everybody.
How should people think
about their professional circle?
teams, mentors,
because what you find
fascinating might not be
for anybody else.
And that's a really good step one,
narrowing it down.
When I was doing a job search years ago,
I stopped,
I might've had a half a bottle
of wine and I had a dry erase board,
because that's what I do.
And instead of writing down
where or where I wanted to
work or what I wanted to do,
I switched it to this
question and the list got a lot smaller.
Like it's almost infinite.
What do you want to do?
That's what everybody says.
What do you want to do when you grow up?
What do you want to be?
And I was like, I don't know.
I thought I was a grown up.
And then when I changed it
to who do I know that I
might want to be around,
that list got smaller and
things got more clear.
So I do like how it starts
with that question.
So what do you think about
that first question?
Really defining where are
the fascinating people?
Yeah, well,
and I think that this is the
value of networking, right?
This is the value of, for me, and again,
not everybody's going to like this,
but it wasn't until I
started to attend
conferences like Combined
Sections Meeting or my
state conferences in Ohio.
That's where I started to
find the fascinating people
that I wanted to be around.
And truly that's when my
career started to change
and grow and mold into what
it is right now.
Because I remember the first
time I went to CSM and I
walked into the exhibit
hall and my mind was just blown.
I'm like,
how did I not know that all of
these people got together
and did all of these things?
And when you walk through the exhibit hall,
and I'm sure you could say
this about any conference, again,
you can plug in any
career that we're talking about here.
But this is where those
innovative minds are coming together.
And you walk through the
exhibit hall and there's
truly something for everyone.
Whatever the setting that
you want to work in,
whatever specialty you want
to kind of get into,
there's something there.
And that's where those
innovative minds are.
You start to talk to people,
you start to figure out
what they're doing,
and you're looking at all
of these different ways
that you can do what you do.
and have fun at it and enjoy it.
And like the people you're
around and make money and
all of that good stuff.
So for me,
that's where it really started
was plugging into a network
and figuring out what other
people were doing,
because when I was just
working in the clinic and again,
there's nothing wrong with
working and just working in a clinic.
Um,
but I think I had blinders on to what
else was out there.
I was just kind of like focused on,
you know,
what was happening in that day to day.
I wasn't really thinking
outside of those four walls.
Having gone through a job
search in the last, you know,
eighteen months,
you do like you start
falling into a pattern of
what I'm just going to keep
searching for this thing or
these things that are already there.
Right?
So if I'm a physical therapist,
I'm a third physical therapy jobs.
I do some things a little
bit outside the box.
So I'm gonna look for those things.
And I had a friend of ours, Sky Donovan,
say to me,
why do you keep looking for the
same thing over and over again?
You've done that and you
know you don't like that.
And I'm like, but that's all there is.
And she's like,
you're smart enough to know
that there isn't.
But when you can't see what
you're looking for,
all you see is what's there.
And it's like, that's the red Jeep theory,
right?
So if I just said to you, well,
the only thing out there is red Jeeps.
Next thing you know, you're,
you're going to spot,
you're going to notice when
those red Jeeps are,
but it's hard to spot the
thing that isn't there.
Like that's not how our eyes work.
Our eyes work on what is there.
So this is chain by simply
changing the question.
Where do you think the
fascinating people are?
That answer is going to be
different for all of us.
And then once you answer it,
the goal is to go there.
If all the fascinating
people are at the exhibit hall at CSM,
go there.
But to the next ten people,
I'm friends with people
who've gone to CSM.
They're like, dude, I get why you like it.
That ain't my bag.
And that person isn't wrong.
And I'm not wrong.
And that's a superpower
because if we all thought
the same things were fascinating,
those jobs would be gone.
Those connections would be exhausted.
So the cool part is our variability,
like the fact that we
actually like different
things and the fascinating things are,
in fact, different.
All right, go into the next question.
And this is something I
think that people in
healthcare who have like
blue personalities hate to
answer because it makes
them feel like they're just
doing things for the money
or is this capitalist?
Now, keep in mind,
you might not be a
millionaire doing something,
but this is where IcaGuy
comes in and they say,
if you can't get paid for it,
this is where the top of the circle,
it says delight and fulfillness,
but no wealth.
This could be a really great,
something could be a really great hobby,
but we're talking about a career.
So you have to be able to get paid for it.
Maybe not a billion dollars,
but you have to be able to
support yourself because if
you're just going to do it on the side,
maybe you're independently
wealthy and then
everything's a hobby in life.
I am not independently wealthy,
so not everything is a hobby,
but you have to be able to
support yourself.
So I like the fact that he
asked this question and it
is second and not last.
So how does income factor
into fulfillment?
There are studies out there
that I'm sure someone
smarter than me can find,
but I've read that over a
certain amount of money,
you don't get more fulfillment.
Gary Vee is famous,
and that dude's worth a
billion dollars plus.
He's like, I know people who are...
just disgustingly rich and miserable.
So those two things are not in lockstep.
One does not mean the other.
But when you saw this as a second question,
what came to your mind first?
As someone who I will
identify as more of a
bleeding heart than me.
So did the fact that he
brought money into this so
early in the conversation
bother you or what did it make you feel?
Yeah, well,
that's obviously an issue for
me because I say yes to
probably too many things.
that maybe don't necessarily
have any kind of return on
investment for my time.
Right.
But I think that there's
obviously there's a lot of
things that we say yes to that we do.
We're not going to get a
financial return on investment.
Right.
But we might get something
else out of that in return.
We're going to learn something.
We're going to change our
ways of thinking or whatnot.
But in what ways can I make
money with them?
Well, for me,
that would be an important
question to ask because, of course,
I need to support myself and whatnot.
But I think that if you find
those fascinating people
and you can make money with them,
the next question is going
to be for me is,
is it enough to sustain me
so that I can do this thing
that I enjoy and at least
make a living out of it?
Yeah.
Right.
If you can't make money on it, which again,
I'm not... You and I both
do things that make us zero dollars.
And one of my most viral or
interacted with pieces of social media,
I should try to go find it,
was if you're good at
something... And I
purposely tried to poke the bear.
And I said, if you're good at something,
never do it for free, right?
That was someone famous advice,
whatever it was.
And I think I also poked...
Because people were like, what,
you shouldn't volunteer?
You're active in the House
of Delegates within your state.
You shouldn't give your time away freely.
And that's what I wanted people to see.
Just because you don't get
something monetarily out of
it doesn't mean you're doing it for free.
When you volunteer,
if you get a sense of fulfillment,
you are being paid in fulfillment.
Now,
as long as you have something that can
pay your bills and put food
on the table and pay the electric bill,
you can give away that time.
So that was one of the first
things that you said was we
do a lot of things that we
aren't getting paid for our time.
But if you're getting something out of it,
then you are being paid for that.
Absolutely.
You have to be able to say
no to the things if you can
do the math down the line
that you're like, I could do this.
I'm good at it.
I know other people value it.
But dude, a week into this project,
if I say yes,
I'm going to hate even
opening my laptop to do it.
Don't do it.
It costs you too much.
And I think that we've all
found ourselves in that position before,
right?
And at first,
when I started to kind of
break into some of the
volunteerism and people
realized I had an interest
and found my skill set or whatever,
there were things that I
said yes to that maybe I
probably shouldn't have.
And then you find yourself
giving that time,
not necessarily enjoying it,
feeling like you're kind of
stuck and that you have to
do it and you have to finish it.
And then you're like,
am I really giving good
quality work at that point?
So you do kind of have to
evaluate that stuff.
And I think that for me,
I have developed my ideas
of things that I like enough.
I feel like I'm close enough to that now.
I know myself well enough.
I know my skills.
I know what I bring to the
table that I'm now confident in saying,
thank you for the offer,
but no to that particular thing.
probably five or ten years ago,
I would have just said yes.
We get told that, right?
Say yes, figure it out later.
Don't say no to any opportunity.
Every opportunity is a door
that might lead somewhere.
And that's true.
But this second question from James Clear,
remember,
is how can I make money with it?
Remember that your finite resource,
while money might be finite as well,
time.
You can only divide yourself
so many different ways.
So if you're saying, yes,
I won't say who it was or
what organization,
but it's within physical therapy.
I was talking to someone.
They were asking me to do something.
And instead of just saying yes, I was like,
can we jump on a call?
I want to understand this more.
What are you expecting of me to do?
It was a very vague ask.
I don't think on purpose.
I don't think she meant it that way.
But when we got on the call,
I ultimately said, yeah, I can do this.
Whatever you're asking for
is enough for me to be able
to do and then be done with it.
The funny part was when we
started diving in,
she's a volunteer for an
organization's event,
an annual event every year.
is not any events you and I
are doing just don't don't
be sitting there doing the
math trying to figure it
out but when I asked how
the event was going and
what it looked like and
like is it worth my time to
this was this was asking me
to leave my house and go
somewhere for more than a
day so I needed to be a
little bit guarded with my
time and ask a bunch of
those questions and
ultimately I found out she
was so frustrated with the
organization and the event
because they haven't given
her the tools the training the time
the and the people the
product in the process to
make it a great event so I
said I will do this for you
this year knowing that she
and I sort of both knew
that this event was going
to be me this year but it
was okay it was it was a
small enough ask for me to
do it then she asked me
would you take over my job
for next year and I said
Maybe if you do it with me,
cause I already liked this, this,
this woman, like the vibe was cool,
but I said,
we're going to go to your bosses,
the people in charge.
And we're going to ask for,
what is the goal of this?
Do you think we're achieving
those goals over the last five years?
Cause this event is,
we can look very quickly and go,
this event is meh.
Should this event even exist?
And if it's gonna exist over
the next three to five years,
are we gonna do something
different and expect a different,
are we gonna do something
the same and expect a different result?
Or are we actually going to
do something different?
Everybody wants to grow and
make things better.
Very few people wanna do the
things required for change.
And I've worked with
organizations where we've
walked out of a meeting going,
we shouldn't be doing this anymore.
And I'm like, right,
but look what you just bought yourself,
time and bandwidth to
double down with things
that are working or you do like.
So this applies for people
and organizations is what I
wanted to add into that.
Yeah, of course.
All right,
the third question in James
Clare's paradigm, what am I good at?
And I think this goes back
to something you were
talking about earlier, which is,
Clinicians are just like, well,
I'm good at evaluation and
treating and interventions.
And I push back and you push back and go,
but where is that transferable?
That is not just – listen,
I've been outside of the
clinical environment.
This is my second career.
It's so stunningly obvious
to me that I'm like looking
at people going,
you can't see where this is a superpower?
Your skills are one thousand
percent transferable
without having to take another –
class or degree or
certification right now.
I need you to have a little
confidence in yourself.
So how do you suggest
clinicians can identify
strengths beyond those
clinical skills or those
clinical skills in non-familiar places?
Well, I mean,
you do have to have a couple
of strikeouts, right?
Before you- What is a strikeout?
Where you try something and
it doesn't work, you know?
Yeah, of course.
You're going to have those
kinds of things as well.
And of course, for me,
there were a few of those
things that I tried and I was like, yeah,
I wasn't very good at that.
I might have done a good job,
but I wasn't all that skilled at it.
But going back to the clinicians,
and I think that this is
where it's applicable to
what you and I do a lot.
Neither one of us work in a clinic anymore,
but I always hear,
PTs and PTAs who go into education and say,
well,
we were never taught to be educators.
You know,
we were taught to be clinicians
and that's true to some extent,
but if you think about all
of the things that you do
with your patient on a regular basis,
you teach them every day, you know?
So yeah,
we do kind of have some of that
embedded into what we do.
We just don't think of it as
translating to the classroom.
And of course there's all
these other like intricate,
details and things that go
into it and big words.
Multi-syllable word.
The funny part is it's
moving information from one
person to another.
And well, what's the, I'm sure you're,
you know, you're in education.
There's a lot of words like
paradigms and like things like that,
things that Jimmy don't,
Jimmy doesn't understand,
but I've been on the
receiving end of teaching.
I can tell you what lights me up,
but also what lights me up.
Wouldn't, wouldn't light up my, you know,
former PT school roommate, David,
like he didn't like the way that the,
so the funny part is, um,
As an educator,
I'm guessing you're
constantly evolving the way
you're teaching based on feedback, verbal,
nonverbal, paraverbal.
In the moment,
you're doing that with patients.
You're doing that with
people that you interact
with on a daily basis.
I'm explaining something
very clear to this person
and they're not getting it,
which means it's actually
not very clear to them.
So I need to,
I'm reading their face or
they're straight up saying,
I don't get it.
Hang on, let me reevaluate.
Let me explain it a different way.
That is a skill.
Which brings me to this one
lesson that I want to impart,
mostly because I am guilty
of this as well.
I'm the problem.
Hi, it's me.
I'm the problem.
It's me.
So the idea there is what
you're good at or you like doing,
we typically undervalue.
Because if something comes easy to us,
or if we're good at it
because we put a bunch of
time and effort and energy
into getting good at it,
now it feels simple,
we assign a lower value.
Maybe not all the time,
but I am guilty of doing this.
But conversely,
we look at things that are
hard for us and we put more
of a value on that and
might look at it like,
I'm never going to be good at that,
right?
I'm never going to be able to.
Actually,
if you liked it and you put the
time and the effort, the energy toward it,
I bet you would get good at it.
Now,
some people are just going to get good
at things faster and more efficiently,
and some people don't,
depending on the thing and the person.
But don't devalue your
skills simply because
either you're around a lot
of people who have them.
Well, everybody here is good at that.
It's not valuable.
Look, look how plentiful it is.
that small snapshot of the world,
the people you're around,
it's not the universe,
and stop devaluing your own skills.
I'm saying this for you, you listening,
watching, I'm also saying it for me,
because I know I do this.
Yeah, well, I mean,
and positive that I did it when you said,
hey, you should start a podcast.
And I was like, oh my gosh, Jimmy,
I would never be good at a podcast.
I could never do that.
But you talk to people all the time.
I watched you talk to people in real life.
I'm using air quotes on podcasts.
And I was like,
so the thing you're doing right now
That's a podcast.
Now,
there's a little bit of like fakeness
to it, right?
Because you have to,
instead of just walking up
to someone in a
conversation and start talking,
you have to say, let's meet at this time.
We're going to push record.
And when the microphone and
the camera comes out,
that is a weird situation, right?
That's why I say the goal of
the host is to make the guest,
like look at those words, host and guest.
Like if I were coming to your house,
you're the host.
Your goal is to make it
comfortable and let them
get past that
uncomfortableness so that
they can show up.
That's the trick.
That's the only trick you
need to learn to go from real life,
non-scripted conversations
to like predetermined.
I want you to go deep into this.
to make sure that when we do it,
lots of people can hear it.
So I watched you converse and I was like,
yeah, you're already good at this.
I just need to get you over
the fact that you might be
a little weird when we see that,
that number, you know,
the little red light come
on and we're recording.
That's the only difference.
It's simple, not easy,
but once you get past it, man,
it's powerful.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Something you said about evolving.
I just wanted to touch base
on that real quick.
Um, this was,
several words ago.
I know we've kind of went in
a little bit of a different
direction here,
but you mentioned evolving.
And I think that this is one
of those things that, you know,
we were talking about going
into academics and teaching
from the clinic.
And in academics and education,
I have to constantly evolve.
And you're right.
You know,
I'm watching the students and
their facial expressions
and their body language.
And if they're not getting it,
and if I have a lot of blank faces,
are they tired?
Do they need to get up, take a break?
go to the restroom, get a drink,
something like that.
What's happening.
But if I choose to not evolve,
that's where I stopped being good at it.
When we look at that,
that third bullet point,
which one am I good at?
So if I go into the
classroom and I teach that
same class every single semester,
and I don't take the
students feedback that they
give me on their surveys or
their verbal and nonverbal
feedback that I'm seeing day to day,
or the, the,
results and outcomes that
I'm getting from their
assessments and I don't change,
then I stop being good at that thing.
So evolving equals change,
which is sometimes hard.
I don't love having to
update my material every single semester,
but- That's the job.
Yeah.
But that applies to everything.
You're going to do the same
thing in the clinic.
Correct.
Yeah, I say, you know,
when I work with larger organizations,
they typically have a problem.
And the larger organizations
are trying to communicate
to their members or their audience,
the people they're trying
to sell to or interact with,
the people who are members.
And what I like to explain
to them is the goal of
communication is not to
have communicated.
The goal of communication is
to achieve understanding.
So if you fire out one arrow, one message,
You're done, right?
You've communicated.
You're done.
I said it, right?
The goal is to make sure
that they understand it.
And one message in one way
might not be enough.
And the funny example I do
that gets a lot of LOLs is,
I'm never been a third grade teacher,
but I would easily be the
most productive and the
best third grade teacher
ever because I've seen the
third grade syllabus.
Dude,
I could teach that entire syllabus in
two weeks.
School year's nine months.
These kids would be out of here, right?
Now, of course,
I would do it at a hundred
and fifty miles an hour,
but I don't have to make
sure every kid understands it, right?
Yes, that's actually the goal.
The goal is not to just have
communicated the syllabus
and rip through it as fast as you can.
Like I know an adult could
do to the third grade syllabus.
because you have to make
sure that they understand.
And that room full of people is varied.
Some are gonna get some
things faster than others.
You're gonna have to pivot your message.
You're gonna have to read
and react because the goal
of teaching is not to have taught,
it is to achieve understanding.
And that is simple, but not easy.
So understanding what game you're in,
I think.
What am I good at?
And how do I figure that out?
And then the funny part is
his last question on the list
is which do I enjoy?
Which is always the first
question people ask you when you're like,
I'm thinking about doing a
pivot or I wanna do
something different or I'm bored.
People always go like, well,
what do you like?
What do you like to do?
This is on par with, I can't find my keys,
where's the last place you had them?
Who doesn't want to punch someone?
Yes,
thank you so much for that in-depth
insight.
I hadn't thought about
where's the last place I had my keys.
Let me go back to that.
Oh, look at that.
I don't know where that place is.
That's the problem is when people say,
look, what do you enjoy?
You don't know.
But the cool part is he puts
this question last because
the first three questions are
are going to get you real close.
They're going to get you
within pitching wedge distance, right?
Instead of asking you, well,
what do you like when
you're five hundred yards
away from the green?
Sorry, I played golf yesterday,
so everything's golf analogies for me.
But this one comes last.
And I think the answers are
in the first three.
Fine.
So write down one, two and three.
Where are the fascinating people?
How can I make money with them?
partnering them, working for them,
creating something that
would solve their biggest problem.
Right.
And then which ones am I good at?
I love this because finally
the first three are going
to lead you to the answer,
which is which ones do I actually enjoy?
Enjoy.
Yeah.
So this is a math equation for me.
Yeah.
So when you saw which ones do I enjoy,
what came to your mind?
Well, um,
that I had traditionally always done that,
you know, and again, the same thing.
Like,
what is it that you like to do
whenever someone says that
they're looking for a new
job or a new role or something like that?
Well, what do you like?
Well, again, yeah,
it kind of goes back to that whole,
I don't know what I like.
I don't know what I want to
do when I grow up.
I like to do as little as
possible and get paid as
much as possible for doing
as little as possible.
Yeah, you know, that kind of thing.
But I think that...
I lost my train of thought
is what I think.
Well, what I was thinking is like,
ask you instead of like, what do I enjoy?
People always like, well,
what do you like to do?
I like how his question is,
what do you enjoy?
Because again,
enjoy is the same as fascinating, right?
It's so subjective, right?
But lean into the thing that
you think is obvious to me.
Because what I enjoy, again,
when I told my friends from
high school that all I
wanted to do was talk into a microphone,
they were like,
I don't even want to talk
in front of five people.
Never mind,
fifty-five people or fifty-five
thousand people.
So the question I like to do, like,
what do you enjoy?
You can go deeper or ask
what I call like ricochet questions.
They're less direct and
they're easier to sort of
answer because you don't have to think.
Like, what lights you up day to day?
When was the last time you were in flow,
in just that doing whatever?
And then it doesn't
necessarily need to be that task.
If you're like, Jimmy,
I like whiteboarding and
collaborating with people
who are in different
professions and industries.
Okay, well, that might not be a job,
but what I heard you say
was collaboration or
creating something from scratch.
Or maybe I like to hear
people's ideas and help
them actually take it from
idea and then do the really strict work.
process thing we'll need it
we need like a project
manager so like instead of
saying well what do you
like to do what do you want
to be when you grow up I
want to be a fireman like
that's too hard to answer
but what has already lit
you up where can we in what
ways can we find those
elements in a job right so
I like I like that and then
how do we rediscover
enjoyment if we've lost it
If you're asking this
question because you're a
job pivot or you want a promotion,
you want to go parallel or vertical,
you have to ask yourself like, well,
how do we rediscover
enjoyment if we lost it?
I still like that asking that question.
Outside of work,
what are the things that
you gravitate to?
You can spend your time
however you want outside of work,
but what are you doing there?
Well, I like riding bikes or whatever.
That's not a job.
Okay, so you like things that are –
Right.
If you're going to ride a
bike every day and you're
going to because you're
going to enter a race.
Oh, you like organizing and planning.
Is that something that you
would like to do in your job?
Maybe.
Is it something you have
been doing in your current job?
Well, no.
Well,
then maybe that's an element that
you're missing.
So I think this last
question for me is like
break everything down
almost like a periodic table.
What are the elements?
What are the oxygen, nitrogen,
hydrogen of the things?
Because you can reorganize
those things in lots of
different ways using a chemistry analogy.
So just because you have
these skills and you put them together,
you know, H two O is water.
If you reorganize those
things or added more H or less O,
could it be something else?
Could you add some carbon in there?
I'm saying these things like
I actually remember chemistry and I don't,
but the point is,
The point is elements that
you have is whatever you are, a clinician,
an educator, you can add to other things.
Maybe you really need to add
another degree to something
or a certification or read
a book to add an element to something,
but it doesn't need to all
be there for you to get the job.
You can be eighty nine
percent of the way there
and be the best candidate.
That's true.
Yeah.
And my thought came back.
Sorry,
not all cylinders are firing this
morning.
but it's exactly what you were describing.
So, you know,
if you go through those first
three questions and you've
already kind of broke those
down to some extent,
when you're using your
search engine to look for
jobs or careers or whatever,
so your Indeeds, your LinkedIns,
all of those kinds of things,
if you've answered some of
those first questions and
you're knowing what I've
am good at, what kind of skills do I have?
Where's fascinating people?
And you can kind of start to
look in those industries.
You're going to start
looking for things that are
outside of what you currently do.
So instead of me constantly
going to LinkedIn and
typing in physical therapist assistant,
Well,
because of what I do now and where
I've went in my career,
I'm not likely going to
find anything under
physical therapist assistant.
But if I'm typing in some of
the different management
and leadership and other
qualities and skills that
I've developed over the years,
I might be linking myself
to other networks and other
communities and other
industries that I can go, oh,
you know what?
I think I would actually
enjoy that even though it
doesn't have physical
therapy in the title.
If you keep doing what you've always done,
you'll keep getting what
you've always got.
And I understand because
I've been guilty of this.
If I just, well,
I have a degree in physical therapy.
So the first part of my
search term on Google needs to be PT.
Does it?
Because you're there right
now and you don't like that maybe.
So you need to take that
part of the equation out.
Yes.
But break it down to the base elements.
Yes.
What are,
what is a physical therapist
assistant good at?
What are the skills and what
are the things I like doing?
So, all right.
So let's wrap this up with
tactical things.
Okay.
How can I,
how can someone listening
actually use this?
So I would say go through
this checklist and honestly
assess and answer these.
And again,
Where are the fascinating people?
In what ways can I make money with them?
Which ones am I good at?
And then finally, which ones do I enjoy?
And break those things down.
Stop trying to answer what's
the job title.
That'll come later.
Unless you know it,
you can't search for it.
I'm sorry, that's how Google works.
You have to be able to give
it good search queries,
but maybe you don't know and that's okay.
This is going to help you
break it down to what those
base elements are.
So I would say do this.
And then I would say,
show it to two or three people who really,
really know you.
Because sometimes our
blinders are on ourselves.
So if I present an idea to
someone I really know that, you know,
that really knows me and they go,
that seems like a that
doesn't see I see what you're doing there,
but I'm able to look at it
from a thirty thousand foot view of you.
So honestly ask them in that way.
You don't have to say,
here's this job description.
What do you think of this?
Ask what they think of your
answers to those first
three questions to see if
you're on the right path.
Again, where are the fascinating people?
In what ways can I make money with them?
Which ones am I good at?
And then I think the ones
that you enjoy is the sum
of those first three questions.
What advice would you give
to a student if they were
going through this paradigm,
if you were doing Katie
mentor one-on-one time?
Yeah.
Well, the first one,
where are the fascinating people?
And you and I were talking
about this a little bit
before we hopped on.
And there's a book called
The Proximity Principle,
which I have not read,
but I do want to read it.
But I do understand a little
bit about like what the whole theory is,
is if there's something, something,
an industry or someone that
you want to emulate or learn from,
you have to get in proximity to them,
right?
So if I want to break into a
specific kind of career or industry,
I need to get myself
somewhat closer to that and
get close to those people
that I find fascinating to discover,
is there something here
that I can actually make money with?
Am I good at it?
And then once you've been
around that specific group
of people or industry,
do I really like it?
at the end of the day.
So the whole key is you got
to get yourself somewhat closer to it,
right?
Before you can even see if
there's anything there.
Yeah.
This is good recon.
Like, this is just like, I don't know,
like.
This is a test drive of a
group of people who are
doing a thing that you're like, well,
do I even like being around these people?
Right?
I mean,
I've got a really close friend from
high school who's into stockbroking.
I have no idea what he does.
He loves it.
He's like, you'd be great at this.
And then I get around his
friends and his friends are
nice people outside of work.
They start talking about
what they're doing in work.
And I'm like, I have no desire whatsoever.
but this is really lucrative.
You'd be good at this.
This is like,
if you're good at personality
and I can teach you the other,
and I'm like, I gotta,
I gotta be honest with you, bro.
I love you.
And I love that you have
such a high opinion of me,
but this doesn't sound like
I would like any of this.
So like, am I good at it?
I don't know.
He thinks I would be.
So let's just say I would be
good at being a stockbroker.
Right.
And can you make money being
a stockbroker?
Yes, you can.
Do I consider those people fascinating?
The people are, but what,
what they're the work
versions of themselves now.
No, I didn't.
Would I enjoy it?
Also no.
So, but, but that's the point in life,
right?
Make the most money with the
least amount of effort.
No,
I don't think it is because if I was
miserable all day, man, that's a long,
that's a long ride.
Yeah.
It goes right back to this, which is like,
okay, what can you be paid for?
What does the world need?
What do you love?
And what are you passionate about?
All right,
so maybe we'll have to read the
proximity principle at some
point and do a book club episode on that.
Yeah, we should try to do that.
Do you wanna wrap up with parting shots?
Like what's your take home
moment from this?
This is the thing that you
brought from James Clear.
What would you wanna leave
with the audience as we wrap up?
Well,
I think if we can just kind of throw
it out there that, I mean,
PTA Plus is gonna be ramping up.
We got tons of episodes
coming this summer and I
just really want to kind of,
I want to push people to
think outside the box.
I want to push PTAs to think
of other ways that they can
bring things to the table.
I mean, if you look at the profession,
if you look at the association,
I'm very involved in our
professional association,
so many more opportunities
are coming to PTAs than there used to be.
And I'm just really tired of
the old mindset of, well,
there's nothing there for me,
or there's no growth opportunities, or
whatnot,
and I'm here to kind of like bust
that myth.
So I want people to look at
this type of thinking
and get themselves in that
close proximity to fascinating people.
It can open doors.
There are ways that you can
get some kind of return on investment,
whether it's money,
whether it's education,
whether it's leadership skills,
there's opportunity there.
What am I good at?
And what do I enjoy?
You know, going through that list,
this can go way beyond a career.
This can go way beyond physical therapist,
physical therapist assistant.
But again, I'm just kind of like,
I want to break that paradigm of, well,
I'm, I'm,
just this or I'm just that
and it's the day-to-day and the wah-wah.
I just want people to think
a little more creatively.
Yeah,
I would say the questions that we
presented that we stole from James Clear,
so we get to sound as smart as him.
Ask yourself those questions.
Where are the fascinating people?
In what ways can I make money with them?
Which ones am I good at and
which ones do I enjoy?
You could also ask yourself
other questions that get
down to the more base elements.
When's the last time I felt
really aligned in my work?
I like it.
What's a task I secretly
enjoyed more than I should have, right?
Maybe your job is like a process person,
but like you were handed a
creative task and you were like, gosh,
this is awesome.
How about a person who made
work more fun this year?
How about one skill I want
to double down on this year?
And this doesn't mean any of
those projects or things or
people is the person you need to go to.
But then ask yourself,
what about that task made me excited?
What about that person did I
feel lit up by and wanted
to be around them more?
The answers are in answering
these hard questions, right?
Like, I'm sorry,
but downloading a list
ain't going to get it.
You have to answer these
questions and nobody can
answer them for you.
And no one's going to answer
them as good as you.
But do bring in some close
friends at the end to take
a look at what your results are and think,
am I in the right direction?
Am I close?
What are we going to talk
about next time we get together?
You had other ideas too for topics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh,
what is the next one that I want to
talk about?
I'm getting a ton of stuff
off of LinkedIn.
I'm telling you what,
if you're not on LinkedIn,
you need to get on LinkedIn.
So there's a couple of
topics that I think we're
going to try to touch base on,
one of which is followership.
Are you familiar with followership?
I saw you do a reel on it,
like a short form video a few weeks ago.
But before that,
I had never heard the term followership.
So I want you to explain it
to me and help me
understand what it is and
if I should be doing it or not.
A hint.
It has nothing to do with
how many people follow you
on social media.
Okay.
All right.
Take a listen to PTA Plus.
If this framework hit home for you,
send this episode to a
colleague who maybe needs to hear it.
And don't forget to follow
Katie and her podcast, PTA Plus.
We've got more of these
crossover episodes coming your way.
Katie, thanks so much for stopping by.
Thank you, Jimmy.