You know it's going to be a
good show when I press the
intro twice by accident.
That's when it's going to be a good show.
Good morning to you guys.
Got a pretty packed show.
I'm pretty excited for this one.
Guys, how you doing?
Awesome.
Beautiful day.
Banger for you.
Special guest.
We haven't done this a ton,
but I feel like when we do,
it adds a little extra element, right?
Because we like to step on
each other's toes,
and we're good at that.
But then we bring an extra
person in to step on our toes,
and it's even better
because we get to fawn all
over that person.
A banger for you.
Will Boyd in the house.
Going to dive headfirst into
the wild world of paid ads.
I feel like...
everybody's a guru if you
ask them you can do it
right you can do it wrong
you could just blow a bunch
of money and and aim it's
it's simple not easy so
let's bring somebody in who
who does it regularly uh
ladies and gentlemen
welcome to the uh the show
will boyd will boyd on the
program there he is hey
guys I feel like a good
morning long time listener
first time caller
There we go.
We love it when people get
the cheesy cliches that Jimmy loves.
Will,
you do and you've been doing a lot of
things.
When we were in PT school,
I believe at the same time,
I graduated in sixteen.
And I just remember I feel
like that was like the I don't know,
it felt like it was the
digital Wild West of PT because.
This went from people saying
you should never or should
always and those never and
always things sort of went away.
Like never start your own
practice at a PT school.
And that was dissolving.
And this whole online thing
was a fad and then not so much.
So like give people the
thirty thousand foot view
because that was nine and a
half nine years ago or so.
Yeah, Teal, you know,
the long story short is just like you,
Jimmy, I was in PT school.
I actually knew of you, Jimmy,
because you were the OG
podcaster in the PT space.
There might have been somebody before,
but you were the one who
took it to the next level.
uh really gave me an
inspiration I started a
blog and I made it two
posts in and was like I I
hate writing this is taking
it was pretty chat gbt like
now yeah yeah but I was
like man and I didn't feel
like an expert and I love
that you were interviewing
people that seems like a
great format so I jumped on
that train we started a
podcast called the nobody's
podcast back in the day uh and that
you know got us into this
world of meeting people
like tony and dave back
when uh you know twitter
was really the main place I
knew how to connect with
pts um the same as you
graduated in school here in
pittsburgh and um from pt
school and then treated for
a year and a half but
during that time um I you
know you guys run practice
well tony and dave in
particular run practices I
worked at a private practice and
had rotations there.
And I just watched the
practice owner all day.
His thing was,
we got to get more new
patients in the door.
We got to get more new
patients in the doors.
And this was when I was on that rotation.
And he would take me to BNI meetings.
We would go to community events.
We do all these things that were great.
And, you know, I was just like, Hey man,
do you,
silly question.
Do you ever use the internet
to get patients?
And he's like, ah, it doesn't,
doesn't work.
Love it.
Doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
And I was like,
that seems really interesting.
Cause like I found this
place by going on Google
and typing practices near me, you know,
to like find it.
And so I was like, that,
that seems very contradictory.
And
um you know the the uh
competitor in me was like
that seems dumb I'm gonna
try to prove that wrong and
I couldn't get buy-in from
that but I you know we were
in a group of uh greg todd
shout out to greg todd way
back in the day had a
online entrepreneur group.
And we jumped in there and a
lot of people starting
their own practices.
And I got some, you know,
I convinced someone to let
me spend like a hundred
bucks of my own money to
run some traffic for them
to see if I could get
patients in the door.
And sure enough,
you can get patients from the internet.
It's not as easy as it sounds,
but you could do it.
And I, from then on, I was like, oh man.
And that person was, hey,
can I keep paying you?
yes the answer to that is
always yes the answer was
yes and it was a lot more
than I was going to make
per hour as a physical
therapist and I just had a
light bulb moment of like
What do I what am I really
interested right now?
Is it is it great patient
care or is it securing kind
of my financial?
I had one hundred fifty
thousand dollars doing loan debt.
I'm sure a lot of listeners out there,
too.
And I thought,
what am I more concerned
about being a great
practitioner or getting
into a good financial position?
And I just kind of made the pivot there.
And so we create a marketing agency.
We start working with small
practice owners.
We learned that small
practice owners don't have the, you know,
two thousand dollar a month budget.
And so we realized, OK, we
We can work with some clients,
but really the best we do
is to train people in-house,
turn it into a coaching
program like you see.
And then we didn't love it.
Honestly,
we just had a moment where I
think a great one is Chris Miller,
for example.
I've been following his post
to you about what's going on.
And kind of a similar moment
where it's like we had
success on the outside and
inside things were going fine.
It's just like we didn't love the model.
We didn't love what we were.
We also learned that the
problem that we were fixing
that we were setting out to solve,
which was getting new
patients in the door was we
were working with a lot of
practice owners who had sales issues,
had front desk issues,
had retention issues.
So we could drive people to them, but if,
but if we weren't able to
help train them to solve
those next three or four problems,
our retention would just go, you know,
plummet.
And so we realized we're not
solving a Legion issue business.
We're a, we're a full on,
that's where you see like Joey,
for example, with what he's doing, it's,
it's full on and it's got to
be and we were realizing
that back then and the
thing that alex loved the
most my business partner he
just loved talking about
finances and it turned out
a lot of our practice owner
clients didn't know a lot
about finances go figure
it's not like you guys know
you start business no one
makes you go to a business
finance class and so we
started training people on
the financial side and over
the last three years that's
all we've been doing is
helping not just pt practices but
any kind of business owner
out there usually doing, you know,
like a couple hundred
thousand a year in revenue up to,
we've got clients doing thirty,
forty million dollars a
year doing their kind of
financial coaching and
fractional CFO work for them.
So that's where we've gone
and that's where I'm at today.
But to say all that is I
head up our marketing and
advertising and sales side
of the company.
And so we spend anywhere
from forty five thousand a
month up to sixty thousand
dollars a month on paid
advertising every single month.
All right.
I've got I've got one
question before Dave goes tactical.
you went from a clinical
degree to a clinical role
to a non-clinical role I
did the same thing did you
face or do you still face
like guilt on that decision
and I asked this for a
friend and that friend is
me I I did in the beginning
and then honestly like the
financial side just
know if I just explained it
to someone the financial uh
difference it was like oh
yeah that makes sense right
like it but yes internally
there's some guilt I I
still think like I keep my
license and honestly I feel
the most guilty about
keeping my license so I
feel more guilty if
someone's like hey man can
you I want to come over can
you like treat my shoulder
that's when I feel the most
guilty where I'm like
technically I can.
Am I the person you want me to?
Like,
you're better off driving four hours
to go see Tony and, you know,
outside Dayton.
Yeah, definitely in the beginning.
And now, you know,
I think I've just kind of
come to a peace with like,
Everyone's got, you know,
as long as you find like
the value that you wanna
bring and you're happy with it,
things are gonna work out.
So, but yes, to answer your question,
there's still hints of that.
Yeah.
All right, Dave,
you were excited for this one.
You're firing up the group chat.
You were like, I got questions.
Will's got answers.
Of course, of course.
Where do we start?
Well, I mean, real quick,
I'm just so pumped to have
Will on here going from the
Nobody's podcast where I
think you guys were being
like super humble and you're still humble,
but like massive success.
And I love to see what you
and Alex are building with
CEO Finance Academy.
awesome to hear about into
kind of following your progress.
But at the same time,
you're still running
Facebook ads or paid ads
for practice owners?
Is it?
Are you mostly just doing
the pelvic floor conditions,
pelvic floor Facebook ads?
Are you doing ads for
outpatient ortho practices?
Like what's the conditions
for the practice and like
different types of practices?
Yeah, so for full context,
I probably have seven
consulting done for you,
kind of advertising clients
that I've kept for a long time.
But we do outpatient ortho,
subpelvic floor, and we can get into it.
But kind of for ortho side,
we're doing a little bit more of the –
offers for modality type stuff,
which has been working
really well to get people in the door.
So we can go into kind of
what that's been like.
But yeah, seeing everything,
I don't do a ton of,
I still have somebody who
does geriatric kind of
in-home or some mobile PT stuff.
So still see all of it.
If you wanted to go like big volume,
obviously Joey's the guy,
Joey and Robbie are the
guys on like big volume,
but I still have great
insight into like some
niche stuff and what we're doing.
Yeah,
and Tony has got the Shockwave and
some other modalities and
some other technology and equipment.
So what do you see working right now?
Is it specifically certain headlines,
certain hooks?
I always like to nerd out on
what's actually working.
So images instead of video
ads on Facebook or Meta.
Is it mostly, you know,
Facebook and Instagram?
Are you are you doing some, you know,
some Google ads?
But for the most part, like just curious,
like what's actually working?
I've had so I've had
different folks and I don't
know if I've heard it's the
New York City area.
Like just I've had certain
marketers and folks take
different stabs at it.
And sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't.
But overall,
it's like it's a loss every
time in terms of the total spend.
And it has been like the
most was like ten K.
last year or the year before
or something where we get
like one patient, you know,
that pays out of pocket or
has out of network insurance.
So it's, it's, I need to maybe use you.
Maybe I need to find someone
else or Joey or Robbie or whatever.
Maybe they're targeting is
off or whatever.
But what do you see working right now?
Like what specifically?
Yeah, I think so.
A couple of things before we
get into tactics,
because I do think there
are some things that matter a lot,
because I can just say, hey,
do these headlines and do this,
and you'll still not have success.
And I think that's a really
big thing here.
I will say, Dave, man,
I have tried New York City
at least ten times for
different practices in New York City,
not a single one has been profitable.
And so now, at this point,
I've just told folks in New York City,
like, I'm not the guy to help you.
I'm not saying it can't be doable,
by no means the end all be all, but man,
it is just, it's so competitive.
It's so... The CPM is more
expensive than most other metros.
And even when you're setting parameters,
like you can set where
people live and where
you're geographically targeting,
it's so transient with
commuters that you might
get someone who sees that.
And you can do like people only live here,
but they're restricting
that more and more now.
So you get somebody who's
maybe lives in Queens,
but works in Staten Island.
I don't know.
Right.
And they see the ad when
they're in Staten Island.
And it's like, hey, come in.
I live in Queens.
And you're like, oh,
you're wasting my money on these leads.
It's like that.
only get so granular on on
you know the the geofencing
side of that and so um I've
just found that uh uh it's
it's it's just for your
sake it's a super tough
market on the facebook side
and I just I'd have lower
expectations but to get
into tactics and what's
working biggest thing is uh
do you know what your sales
process is and how are you
putting people in your
sales process and I say
that because you get people
who are like can you send
me images can you send me
videos can you send me headlines
And I can.
But if you set it up to just
run a campaign that's like,
I just want people to see it, guess what?
It's not going to turn into
people coming into your door.
The algorithms are so smart
that if you don't tell it what you want,
it's going to give you
whatever you tell it.
So if you say, I want impressions,
it's going to give you
incredible impressions.
And you're going to go,
why didn't get any patients from it?
You didn't tell Facebook
that you wanted to get patients from it.
And so this is where the tactical side,
I think,
is it's so worth if you're going
to go spend money on this.
that you do learn a little
bit about the foundations
of it to understand how to
get the best out of it
because if you don't you
can go have chat gpt make
five thousand different
images all the coolest
videos I've got a guy who
you know spent I don't even
know how much it had to be
thousands of dollars on a
great tv commercial style
video I want to put it on
facebook and and it's so
great spend all this money
it's going to bring people
in the door and I just told
him I was like
I can't, I won't put money in.
You can do it on your own.
I won't put money into this
because it won't work.
Like it's not the right
platform for something like this.
It doesn't have a call to
action of where you want to
send someone into your sales process.
So it looks great.
You're getting a lot of people going,
that was a great video.
And I said,
do you want people to like your
video or do you want
patients in the door?
Difference.
There's a difference there.
There's a psychology difference there.
Do you want to be liked or
do you want to make money?
Yeah, to your point, Jimmy.
So Dave,
I guess before we get into tactics
and headlines,
I think the one thing is
before I say all that,
because I've had this
happen before where someone goes,
you told me I could do
these headlines and I could
I could write this ad copy
and it didn't work.
And it's like, well,
do you have the technical
mechanics down for this to
even possibly work?
Right.
And I know, Dave, you're up on that.
But I think if someone's
listening and they're not aware of that,
you're going to go and set a you know,
someone might go and said, I spent.
you know,
a thousand dollars this month on
Facebook ads.
And I set it to link clicks
and I got a lot of clicks.
I didn't get any,
I didn't get any patients.
I said, well, yeah,
you told Facebook you wanted link clicks.
Facebook's gonna go get you link clicks.
They're not gonna go get you
actual people in the door.
And if you're listening,
is there a setting to get patients?
There's not a setting to get patients,
but there's like an opt-in
to track for someone to
give you their name, email, phone number,
book in, right?
There's nuances to that.
So Dave,
we can get into the technical piece.
I just think if someone's
listening to this,
It is absolutely worth going
and spending a day on YouTube.
Trust me, for your budget,
it is worth spending a day on YouTube.
How do I run a lead form campaign?
How do I run a conversion
campaign on Facebook?
Because if you don't,
it really doesn't matter.
I mean, it can matter and it will matter.
Obviously,
if you just say absolutely nonsense,
it's going to matter.
But in terms of getting the
outcome that you want,
You can be the best copywriter.
You can be the best whatever.
The algorithms are so intelligent.
You've probably seen this, Dave, on Google,
right?
If you just do link clicks,
I get a bunch of link clicks.
But if you start optimizing
for phone calls, guess what?
You start getting phone calls.
The algorithms start looking
for people who have a
history of doing these activities.
And so before you get into
headlines and copy, you know,
which I love all that stuff,
I just see ninety plus
percent of people fail
because they don't even do
the back end little
technical pieces that set
you up for those things to work.
Then paid ads don't work.
Paid ads don't work.
Exactly.
Then you air quote it and
paid ads don't work.
Yeah.
So Dave,
I know I didn't answer your
question directly.
I just want to give a caveat there.
No, no, no, no, no.
Of course it needs to be
prefaced with that for sure.
I think like the last couple
of Facebook campaigns we had,
we were optimizing just like,
I think similar to the,
the Google campaigns we run,
like either for,
I think for the most part
conversions or phone calls,
or in some cases, like for us,
the conversion would, depending on the,
uh, the, even on the Google ads,
the conversion is either they actually,
they converted into a phone
call or the conversion was
they went to our website
and they filled out a lead form.
So it's still a lead.
Like we just, we want leads, right?
We want lead, we want lead flow,
we want lead volume.
And so we're okay if it's,
sometimes it's a phone call,
sometimes it's a website
form opt-in or form fill or whatever.
But yeah,
those things certainly make sense.
So in terms of like what
else you're seeing or
things that are surprising
or flopping or whatever,
like where do you want to
take it from here?
yeah so what we've been
seeing working really well
I've got a couple people
doing this one guy in
arizona um we're running uh
shockwave ads so uh running
ads to uh shockwave for
body specific uh part so uh
we've got shockwave going
for uh tennis elbow
shockwave for uh plantar
fasciitis and shockwave for
knee pain and then so that's
been going really well.
Literally it's just images
of a practitioner with the
shockwave wand over the body part.
And that's been working.
I've tested that against a
lot of different stuff.
And it's just a picture of the,
I think what, what it does for people is,
and I, and I try to stress this to folks.
I, you know, I'm a come from a fan of like,
what do I believe in rehab, which is like,
obviously exercise getting better,
like mobility sizing.
I think about what do I want as a,
as a patient?
I don't want to do any of that.
I want someone to just make
me feel better.
Right.
And so I think of like,
do I know what I need to do?
Right.
But it's like, what do I want?
If someone's like, hey,
would you rather have this
be fixed passively or not?
It's just the same as us.
Would you rather make income
passively or actively?
Well, I'd rather pass it.
Right.
It's like, cool.
Well, hey,
let me draw you in with like
what's possible down the road for this.
You know, it's like, hey,
what's the thing that
piques their interest?
It's really all we're doing is saying, hey,
shockwave is just a medium.
And it's a it's a it's I
don't say it's a gimmick
because it can work,
but it's a it's a it's a.
a magnet, right,
that catches your eyes and goes, oh,
that's new, I don't know what that is.
Oh, maybe that's the fix, right?
And really what we're doing
is getting people to say, oh,
I have knee pain, or hey,
I have plantar fasciitis.
What is this new thing that
might be able to help me with that?
And I always joke,
if it were me and I had to
start a practice tomorrow,
I'd start an E-STEM
practice or a shockwave
practice that just happens
to have physical therapy.
Because I know I could
acquire patients really
fast and then help talk to them,
get to build those relationships.
It would just be a break
even front end magnet to
get people into the door to do that.
And I know that goes against
a lot of the like what's
Ethical, not ethical or, you know, well,
is that evidence based practice?
And again,
it's the difference between business and,
you know,
what's the right treatment plan
for someone?
And I just look at for me,
if what I know on the front
end side of if I had to go
in and scale something fast,
it would be through
modalities from the sense
of I would draw people in
with modalities because it
gets people interested.
They're hooked on.
Now,
you might say that's not my ideal
patient.
Different story.
Totally, totally could believe that.
But that's something to think about.
Not the end all be all,
but that's the route I would go.
So for context, just to give you an idea,
we get leads for about for
a ninety seven dollar
shockwave treatment session.
Right.
We get leads for about forty
five to fifty bucks.
About one out of three comes in.
So we lose about fifty dollars on that.
So it costs about one
hundred fifty dollars.
Get them in the door.
But they pay ninety seven
for the shockwave treatment.
treatment and then the
clinic it depends on the
clinic in terms of upsell
rate but you know we're
looking at usually one out
of three if it's cash one
out of three ends up in a
sort of a cash plan if it's
uh like insurance and it's
usually closer to one out
of one you know one out of
two one point one five that
end up converting into a
plan of care and so that
becomes kind of our break even uh
Technically, it's a loss leader,
but it's really a kind of
break even if you look at
all things considered.
So that's been working
really well on that front.
So if you're ortho and you
have shockwave or you have
Graston or Easton or
something like putting that image up,
again, though,
you can do all that if you
don't have the technical
background to tell them what you want,
which is a lead to get an
email phone number.
You just get a lot of people going,
this looks cool and go, hey.
And you go, hey,
I don't have any patients from it,
and it doesn't work.
So you can have all the cool images.
I will say, historically,
what's honestly worked the best,
and this just blows people's mind,
whatever you're advertising, in my time,
historically, the number one thing,
and Joey and I are still in
some ad accounts at the same time,
and I still see some of my
old ads from three years ago running,
which just blows my mind.
It's literally a color background,
so just the Facebook square.
color like purple or
whatever and it just says
ninety seven dollar or
whatever the offer is right
just literally written out
for people with this who
live in this area and
highest uh like return on
investment are just the dumbest
You can go to all the chat GPT stuff,
all the crazy stuff.
I still have an ad that's
been running for four and a
half years for pelvic floor
that just says,
a ninety seven dollar
pelvic floor assessment for
women in blank area who are
dealing with leakage,
incontinence and pain with
intercourse or pain with intimacy.
Right.
Four and a half years still
driving in over, you know,
for six hundred dollars a month,
still driving in over like
seventy leads a month and cranking away.
So just because he can test
all different creators, all the stuff,
sometimes it's just the dumbest,
simplest thing that that can do the best.
So, Dave,
that's that's what's working on
the ortho shock wave side.
I still think that's one of
the best plays if you have
that and you and it goes with your
know company values in the
sense of like if you're
like we're all sports
performance we don't
believe in that don't you
know obviously I would
never encourage someone to
go against kind of like
what your brand image is
and what you want to be but
if you were just hey I just
need more patients in the
door and I don't really
care that's what I'll do I
can hear the evidence-based
practice clinicians saying
but it's not evidence-based
and I would say uh it's
hard to provide
evidence-based practice if
no one's in your clinic
right and then also
Keep it simple, stupid, right?
What do you do?
We buy houses, as in, take cash,
insert town, right?
Like,
sometimes we can be our own worst
enemy and overthink this thing.
There's so many people who
would come in when I was in
radio with all these ornate ideas for ads,
especially radio ads, one-dimensional.
And it was always, well,
I shouldn't say always.
Most of the time,
it was the simplest thing
that cut through.
Great taste, less filling.
Miller Lite, the end.
What else you got, Dave?
Yeah, we'll hear.
Tony, any thoughts,
any feedback on the shockwave ads?
I mean, he's describing your offer.
I know, I know shockwave,
Matt duro and the team over there.
I know they've I thought
they used to say they would pitch like,
you know,
make it a forty nine dollar offer.
But but Tony, any questions,
any any feedback for Will?
The thing I would love to get,
since you're the finance guy, Will,
how do you help clinicians?
I mean, I come from this very conservative,
I can't spend money,
I've got to save everything.
I'd rather save a hundred
bucks than earn a hundred bucks.
Yeah.
how do you help clinicians
rationalize okay whatever
the the equipment is that's
a big expense to say I'm
gonna buy this and you're
the first person outside of
me that I've heard say look
if I was starting a
practice today I would buy
a piece of this technology
and it would be my full
business it's a business in
a box that I'm buying and I
build everything around
shockwave nufit biodex
whatever it is that I'm getting
How do you help them with
the financial and the
emotional aspect of I'm
going to invest this huge
amount of money and I'm
going to have to pay for
ads on top of it.
But it's going to give me
the long term growth and
the revenue I need on the other side.
Yeah, that's a great question.
And, you know, I think I'd say, well,
you're in business,
so you're gonna have to get used to risk,
right?
Like that's just a part of
the game and it sucks, right?
Like that's,
if it were easy and it were
for risk averse people,
we'd have many more business owners,
right?
And so, but that being said,
I think to your point though, Tony, it's,
if we look at it in like stages.
So for Alex and I,
like we didn't start
spending fifty thousand
dollars on advertising a
month right out the gate.
We started with five hundred
and a thousand.
Right.
And you get better with what
budget you have to start.
And so for that case, I would say, like,
don't go buy the new fit right away.
Don't go buy the whatever
the most expensive thing is right away.
Like if it's about getting
people in the door through
the modality side, you know,
what can you afford?
Like, I don't know.
I don't know how much a shockwave is or,
you know, but Graston tools aren't
crazy expensive you know
relative to rice they're
really expensive but
relative to like a new fit
not that expensive and you
know hey like uh could you
start there right and like
and dial in your sales
process how effective are
you getting uh talking with
those initial people
indoors so someone like you
tony it's like hey that's
less of a risk you know how
to talk to people you know
how to uh you know what
your sales process is so if
someone's like I'm gonna
open a clinic and this is
my plan I'd be like well I
hope you have investing and
funding because that's a
lot of risk on a lot of
things that you don't know
on a holistic scale if
they're going to work or not.
Whereas if you've been
proven what you're doing
and you slowly go into that,
that's what you're going to do.
You can ease your way into
that and you can grow into that,
which goes against a lot of people,
which is I don't want to be patient.
We got to have patience in this.
Tony, I think on that end,
It's like, well,
I would say maybe if that's
the way that you start, it's like, hey,
start with friends and family,
save your money, save the cash.
So that way you can hedge
your bet on these things and say, hey,
I might not get a return on
this new fit for three months,
but I've saved up, you know,
three thousand dollars a
month for the last six months.
And I can I can ride that
out until it starts to become profitable.
But how well do we convert
people in general?
How many leads do we get in general?
And if you don't know those
things and you don't track those things,
then I mean, you're just gambling really,
which is fine.
I got, you know,
there's a whole industry of gambling,
but like probably not the
way you want to do it if
you're running the business.
So that's the way we think about it.
I think one of the
interesting things on this, though,
that never gets discussed
is the smart use of leverage.
When I buy a physical product,
something that has a tangible value,
I can leverage credit.
I can borrow money for it.
Now we get into, okay,
what's the interest rate?
What kind of return can I expect?
If I get an eighty thousand
dollar piece of equipment
that I'm spending a
thousand dollars a month on, you know,
I'm leveraging other
people's money correctly to
scale and grow the business.
And I can put a dollar
amount return on that investment.
Whereas if I'm just trying
to do everything on a bootstrap budget,
I don't have leverage.
I don't have other financial
means to do this.
It's really hard.
It's way harder, I think, than to invest.
like you said,
leverage those business
philosophies appropriately.
I just, I think it's awesome.
I love hearing this.
So,
but I want to turn it back to Dave and
see what's next.
Well, I got a question for you, Tony,
if that's right.
Cause I'm in this league.
I watch every day.
I'm always curious,
keeping up with you guys.
I love the,
so many times I side with Dave on the,
like, don't go the digital route side.
It's like,
been there done that so many
times and you don't make
any money while you get
there but I also understand
tony long term it's like
yeah like so I'm super
fascinated to be in this
and I love jimmy in the
middle who's just like he
just knows that he knows
that he knows the little
buttons to push for each of
you to get you guys but
like so tony you've been
posting a ton on your
facebook profile or your uh
your business page right
and it's growing right
and I know you put a ton of
time into it where do you
see that going because I'm
always like I watch and I
see and I'm fascinated I'm
like where's this going
because I see the
bajillions or trillions of
views and I think like hey
like are you making money
off that like how's that
working like what's going
on with that um because I
love the content in my mind
like as the the the content
creator in me is like this
is awesome like I love it
we're getting out there the
business owner in me is like
I don't know where it's headed.
And I guess I'm curious for you, like,
and maybe it's a playground,
but I'm just curious to learn more.
Yeah.
Where are you headed with that?
It's a playground, a hundred percent.
And it's one of those things for listeners,
for context, you know, I had put all my,
my time into the YouTube basket.
I did everything for YouTube.
I've got thousands and
thousands of YouTube videos.
And then around October of
two thousand twenty four, I was like,
I need to get on this TikTok, Instagram.
By accident,
I didn't even realize when I
posted something to Instagram,
which I hadn't done for like three years,
it kicks over to Facebook business page.
All of a sudden,
I got five hundred thousand
views on an organic post on
Facebook business page.
I'm like, oh,
maybe I'll do something with this.
and this is just my mode
like forever I plant seeds
I see what happens you guys
saw I shared the the
screenshots my facebook
groups of you know whatever
tens of thousands of people
in it and I had no idea
when I started I'm still
not monetizing and taking
advantage I just love doing this stuff so
with the Facebook business
page because it gained
traction kind of accidentally.
I was like, well,
let me focus a little more time on this.
I am playing with it.
It went from, I think,
five thousand followers to
sixteen thousand pretty quickly.
It's it's averaging over a
million views a month.
And this last month was like
one point eight million views.
I'm trying a long form content on there,
but everything is still organic.
I still don't understand how
to take something that is
proven effective
organically and turn it
into something that
actually puts money in my pocket.
I'll do anything.
I don't care.
But it is still a playground
that is starting to show
signs of maybe something
that could be more.
I just don't know what to do with it.
And Dave,
how much does that drive you nuts?
It drives me nuts.
But at the same time,
we all know Tony has one of
the most creative minds.
For me, I'll speak about myself.
I think Tony has one of the
most creative minds of
anyone that I probably know.
And when he posts these
insightful questions,
he puts out these questions
to us or the internet and
therapists at large on
LinkedIn originally or
Facebook at the same time.
It's super fascinating to follow.
And I do feel the same way, Will.
It's like...
Like, what is this for?
There's got to be something.
Here's something, Will, maybe,
is when people sign up for
Tony's Learn Medicare
Billing course at
LearnMedicareBilling.com,
people convert probably way
higher than like any other
course or academy or program or whatever.
And Tony is being so
hospitable and nice with
keeping it like still five
hundred bucks or whatever.
It should be two to five grand, ten grand.
It's just massive value.
And people convert.
And then when people ask,
like in these different
groups on Facebook, like billing,
like Medicare billing
questions and stuff,
Like, people will post, like, oh,
you should check out Tony
Meritato's Learn Medicare billing course.
Like, it's awesome.
And people will just, like,
organically and naturally mention it.
Right.
And then those people then
go and convert easily,
and Tony's not even running
paid ads to it.
So maybe, Will,
do you think that when Tony
is posting these very –
neutral, insightful, clever questions?
Should there be a call to
action at the bottom or be like, hey,
this post is sponsored by
or powered by
LearnMedicareBilling.com or
drop a link of the course
in the first comment or something?
I feel like he needs to
juice it a little bit,
but then maybe that takes
away the mystique of his clever,
insightful questions.
What do you think, Will?
Yeah, I think so.
Hopefully it's a safe space.
I'll just tell you what I
see from the outside.
Like if that's, if that's cool.
So I feel like, and this is,
if you're watching, you know,
if you're a listener, I think, you know,
I would say all of us here
are a little bit more experienced,
like further along in your
business journey, you know, than, than,
you know,
say someone who's starting out
and you're watching this, right.
The way I see with Tony now
is at the beginning, I was like,
how does he do all these things?
There's all this stuff.
And then, you know, I realized Tony's,
so far along in his journey
that from the outside
tony's what it looks like
is like tony's got his
clinic that kind of runs
with or without him I know
recently you've been
jumping back in but and so
I think from a like a I
could be guessing financial
stability point tony's at a
place where he can play and
he can just it's just all
fun right where dave you
and I and jimmy I you know
I don't know where you're
at jimmy with this but like
it's like hey I got it
I got to secure my financial
and focus is so important right now.
Like in order to do that,
like when someone comes to
me and they're like, well,
I think I might have a wait list.
I need to open up digital products.
And I go, no,
you need to learn how to run
a business and you need to scale.
Like you got to figure that out.
And they go, I don't want to.
And I go, well, just like Tony mentioned,
it was two days ago.
I think as well, the valley is between,
you can do it with one
person and you can be
profitable or you got to get to five.
your choice but don't but
don't go the digital like
the digital route's not
going to get you in terms
of like the the cash flow
that you really want or
become a content creator I
would just say don't you
know my advice would be if
you're in this place where
you want to get financial
security like you don't do
both like there are
exceptions or it's always
going to be exceptions vast
majority of people it's not
going to work and so that's
where again it comes back
to like what's the end goal
and I think for this dave
with like tony it's like
Do you want to make it a
business or do you want it
to stay up on side project?
Because if we drive traffic
to this and we can get
people there and sign up,
it's going to turn into a
business really fast of like, right now,
think about quality of care.
Can you maintain that
quality with a hundred
signups every time versus twenty?
Right.
And what if it gets to two hundred?
And how do we do that?
And so I think, Dave,
that's the thing where I
watch because I'm with you.
I'm always like.
God,
there's so much opportunity here when
I watch what Tony is doing.
And I'm like, where's it going?
I got a crazy close.
Like, Tony, have you ever I mean,
this is just my original
idea that I'm just having right now live.
Have you ever thought about
converting your courses
into consulting services by by chance?
Says Christian in the live stream, who's,
by the way,
a CEO of of staff med health partners.
Dude's got ten thousand
followers on LinkedIn.
Weird.
Getting attention leads to stuff.
So have you ever thought
about doing something like that?
You've done this before.
Yeah,
and I'm not interested in going that
route.
I don't want to be the
consultant or the coach or
those things right now.
And to Will's point, I think you have to.
We all have to understand ourselves,
understand our personalities,
understand our matrix.
I've got friends that make
way more money than me,
and they're no happier than me.
There's a threshold.
You need to make enough money.
You need to feel safe.
You need to feel comfortable.
And I've always been one of
those people that even in competition,
this will drive Dave crazy.
I was in martial arts.
I was a boxer.
I did shoot wrestling and
Muay Thai fighting.
I never got to the point
where I wanted to like, quote,
finish the other person.
I wanted them to do well,
even though they were
trying to punch me in the
face as hard as they could.
I wanted to win,
but I didn't want to like
destroy the other person.
Yeah.
And if I got second, it was like, OK,
I did pretty good.
You know, so like that's my nature.
Now,
my wife is one hundred percent the
other direction.
She will just drive you into the ground.
She she played basketball at
Wheeling Jesuit and played
sports her whole life.
She wants to win and win decisively.
So with that being in my nature,
I'm kind of the same way.
Like, all right,
I got enough money in the bank account.
I can pay my bills.
My kids are taken care of.
Like, we're comfortable.
I don't need a bigger house, a newer car.
I like what I've got.
Now I just want to enjoy, like,
play with these things, see what works.
And truly,
my passion is if I put something
that is working and successful,
I want to show other people
how they can do it also for themselves.
I don't need to grow my
business or do those things.
I want to be the testing
ground that other people can learn from,
but I don't want to be the
coach or the advisor.
I don't want the stress and
pressure of those kinds of
responsibilities.
Yeah.
Tony is secretly Canadian
because he just loves ties.
He's just okay with kind.
But we're mentioning that.
I was talking about this the other day.
I've still got the back of
the envelope thing.
Will,
have you ever heard of six types of
working genius?
It's just another one of
these like personality things.
It's pretty cool.
It's a quick read.
It's not so much about personality.
It's more about what Tony's talking about,
which is like they
essentially said there's
six types of tasks.
Yeah.
Right.
And each of us are good at two.
We're OK at two and we're
really off awful at two.
But what it means in terms
of it's not skill,
it's does it give you energy?
Does it suck energy out of
you or is it meh?
I could do it if I have to.
And looking at Tony,
he's like self-aware enough
to know that ain't it.
Like so someone like like
someone like Claudia Christian, sorry,
coming in and saying this
Christian's probably right.
Tony could do it.
Tony self-aware enough
feeling if I did that,
six months in I'd be
miserable to do it so tony
is wise enough to know uh
self-aware enough to know
uh himself I am just
getting to the
self-awareness part and I'm
writing I'm writing them
down and figuring out but
then the funny part is when
you figure out your own dna
you can look back at all
the things that didn't work
and you're like well duh
like of course then you'd
give that test the people
you work with and you find
people who are not like you
and then you like you link
up like lego blocks
And it's because I've been
on the other side of that.
I've overcommitted so many
times in my fifty years of life.
Right.
And then I feel guilty and
then I've let people down
and then I've dropped the
ball that I finally learned.
I'm just not going to do that.
You know, there's nothing on that side.
Will, question for you.
So I talked to you, gosh,
this was probably a couple
of years ago now.
And I was blown away because
you said you guys pretty
much just stopped all organic stuff.
You stopped going on interviews.
You stopped doing all these other things.
So this is a huge treat to
have you here today.
and you just went to paid
ads um some of the content
I'm seeing these days is
the combination we need the
paid ad to get the message
in front of the consumer
then what happens is the consumer goes
and looks for the organic
content to better
understand the service provider,
what they're doing, who they are,
what the culture is.
What can you speak to that
about in regards to needing
both the paid and the organic?
Yeah, that's a great question.
It kind of comes again to what, you know,
kind of where you're at,
what stage of things you're at,
but let's just, you know, in this case,
I'd say like one,
do you mind your cashflow
and know what you can even
afford to spend on paid advertising?
If the answer is, is I don't know,
or I can't then organics away,
you gotta go.
The reality is,
and Jimmy's probably seen
this from his radio days
all the way to now is like, yeah, the,
the,
We had the phase of you
pretty much had to pay for
high-end distribution.
I had to get onto radio, TV,
and that was very costly
because they were the ones
who controlled distribution.
Distribution got opened up, right?
And everyone was like, hey,
we can get on this.
And we had the golden age of organic,
and it's still relatively there.
But now it's gotten more
sophisticated and it's like, hey,
to win it organic for a lot of times,
you have to put a lot of time into it.
I think of, Tony,
how much time you put into
your organic stuff.
And I know you might say,
I don't edit a lot or do stuff,
but like it's still time.
You're out there filming,
you're recording.
So a lot of these people do, you know,
they have teams in-house or
using virtual assistant
teams to go through this stuff.
And so to me, I'm always looking at it.
You're paying one way or another, right?
You're either paying in time.
This is the one thing I
really... Say that again.
Say that again.
yeah you're paying one way
or another you're paying
with money you're paying
with time and I think a lot
of people don't value their
time and again when you
don't have excess capital
or cash time is the
resource you have and you
got to spend it right and
you got to go spend the
time but a lot of times
people don't you know
people say hey what do you
charge an hour for treating
a patient two hundred bucks
three hundred bucks okay
Two hundred bucks.
How much time did you spend
on organic content this month?
Oh, probably like twenty.
OK,
so you spent six thousand dollars worth
of time to go build that organic content.
Did you get more back in return?
Oh, we got some likes on our Instagram.
And I go, well, that's to me,
that's the that is the
poorest waste of time and
resources that I can think of.
If you're not measuring it,
you're not even counting
what's it going to cost in terms of time.
People are just so I've just
found owners are just so
adamant that time is free.
And I have to stress that time is not free,
man.
Time is very expensive.
And the compounding of time
is even more expensive.
If you do that for an entire
year and you spend six
thousand dollars a month of
your time on organic content and you get
four thousand likes that
year and two hundred new
followers and maybe one new
patient objectively if you
had to look at it would you
go that was a good use of
time and everyone would go
no that's a terrible use of
time right but when you're
in it you're like oh that's
what I can do I can do this
so to me it's it's like I
think I love organic if
you're gonna do it go all
in on it get serious about
it the way that you do tony
like spend time go ahead
understand what business
you want to be in
right, like understand,
and then triple down on it.
I mean, how many people laughed at me?
I mean, classmates, I started this podcast,
my podcast in PT school,
so I was in class, right,
with people who should have
been excited around me.
But it's funny, the people closest to you
sort of all look at that
weird thing that you're doing, like,
you know, like it's like a dog turd.
They're like, that's weird.
And then the funny part is
five years later, if you have success,
those are the people who said,
I knew it from the beginning, man.
I knew it.
Did you see the same thing
when you were sort of
choosing your own path?
Did you see people like sort
of maybe like look at you like,
wouldn't it just be smarter
to go work in a clinic?
It feels more secure.
And you're like, yes, secure.
But like, I'd hate, I know I'll hate it.
I'm secure in that I won't love it.
Yeah.
I was just so open about it.
I don't think anybody really
like said anything.
We never forget.
We had a lecture in class.
There's a business.
This guy was doing a,
this great guy came and did
like a business budgeting class,
which in hindsight, no one has, you know,
like zero percent attention
span going to that.
And, you know, he's like, you know,
he comes in with a funny question,
who here wants to get a PT
job right out of school?
And, you know,
expected all hands to go up.
Mine didn't go up.
And he just goes,
Did you not hear the question?
I was like, oh, no, I heard it.
And he's like, are you being funny?
And I was like, no.
And he's like, why are you here?
And I go, I don't know.
I've been asking the same
question to myself for a while.
I love it.
And so people knew.
People knew I was going to go a different.
I was pretty furious at my
school at the time when
they wouldn't help me.
I had a question in that
same class of like, hey,
if I can negotiate my
salary up for five thousand
dollars this year,
what are some good questions I can ask?
How can I do that?
it doesn't seem like an
appropriate question to be
asking at this time.
You know, you want to get a good job.
And I said,
I have one hundred fifty
thousand dollars student loan debt.
You bet your ass every five
thousand dollars makes a
big difference if I know
how to negotiate that.
Like, it might not matter to you,
but it matters to me.
Like,
that's maybe a year sooner that I
could buy a house or, you know,
and I was just like I was I was like,
I was essentially at that point,
I was like, screw you guys.
Whatever you tell me,
I'm doing the opposite.
That's not the business they were in.
They were in the business of
churning out people who
could pass the NPTE.
And that's fine.
And as soon as you understand that,
in my opinion anyway,
stuff gets a lot more clear.
It gets easier.
Sorry, simpler, not easier.
yeah but then you start to
go well do they understand
their consumer right and
you go no they don't like
and they were playing in
the model where there was
such higher demand than
supply and uh uh and now
it's like you know it's
awakening like is it worth
it and so I anytime
someone's like should I go
to pt school and I say well
you know what does it look
like cost-wise if it's over
like seventy five thousand
dollars I go I probably
wouldn't do it right and
they're like oh but but you
know I get a doctorate
degree and I go yeah
like let's just let's just
run the math here right and
I get it it's hard when
you're twenty two or
whatever right you don't
you're just like I just I
don't even know what to do
next so it's a tough I'm
glad I got accepted like oh
my god I won I got accepted
yeah and that's why I tell
people all the time you
don't don't win the
interview at a job or pt
school or anything you
learn from the interview
and you decide like you
wouldn't be there unless
they wanted you or are
considering you as well you
don't win interviews
Tony, to answer your question directly,
if you can,
I would take whatever your
best organic content is.
I would start potentially
putting money behind it in
terms of paid because it's
a game of distribution.
You're hoping with organic
that it's going to get shared.
People are going to share it
to the right people.
You also don't know who
they're going to share it to.
So those millions of people
you get on your Facebook post,
how many of them are
actually... And again,
this comes back to what's the end goal,
right?
If I want the metrics and I
want it to be good...
go ham, do whatever, right?
But if it's like, hey,
I want this content to lead
to like where Dave's world
in mind where it's like, well,
I want this to end to a
financial outcome for me
because I'm putting time into this.
Then you have to look at, well,
does it make sense that a
million people see it or
two thousand of the right people see it?
And what would you rather have?
And I'd rather have two
thousand of the people who
are in that pocket
We need that problem that
this content can move them
in a direction.
I would spend money every
day versus time to hope I
find that through organic.
But people are like, you love ads.
I don't care what works.
I just found it's distribution,
getting a message in front
of the right people.
We have these platforms that
allow us to do it.
And I think the big thing is
you'll just see is, well,
I did it once and it didn't work.
It's like, yeah,
I tried to do a PT eval first time.
It was pretty bad, right?
Like it took me like a lot
of iterations to like figure out like,
what's my flow?
What do people respond to?
Oh, I can't say, oh, your arm looks,
you know, oh, your arm looks deformed.
Whoa, can't say that.
That's terrible, right?
Like that gets a bad response.
And, you know,
you just have to take it serious,
I think is the thing.
Like whatever you're going to do,
you got to take it serious.
So I know Dave's doing
Google and I think a little Facebook.
What are you seeing on other platforms?
Like anyone doing LinkedIn,
anyone doing something like
Thumbtack or Angie's List
or any of those?
I was going to ask Will if
he's doing any YouTube ads, but yeah.
What do you got, Will?
Yeah, YouTube.
Yeah.
So we do for our financial company.
For PT side of stuff,
here's what I've seen.
I've seen a lot of people
try YouTube ads to varying
degrees of success.
I'll just say there's
probably a reason that a
lot of the bigger groups
that do advertising aren't
doing YouTube or TikTok, really,
or LinkedIn in particular.
LinkedIn for PT to get new patients,
for me,
it's just so expensive in terms of
impressions and getting in
front of the right people.
And it's not really...
I just haven't found it to work well.
For us and like a B to B service,
it works fine.
But for a B to C standpoint,
it's not really something I
would recommend just from a cost.
Like you can essentially
just might as well,
ten X the cost versus what
you'd pay on Facebook or
Instagram for the same outcome.
You go, wow, we'll get professionals.
One of the tough things with that,
and just for context,
so with like LinkedIn or Google,
it's like if you try to get
so granular on the
targeting that you want to do,
it sounds great, right?
These are the two thousand perfect people.
The algorithm goes, hey,
there's only two thousand
people like we're humans.
We do worse with excess data,
like at a certain threshold.
I can't do any better with data.
Like it's the opposite with
these algorithms.
If you give them less data,
the worst they perform.
So they need enough data to like do this.
And so if you were to limit
it to two thousand people and you're like,
these are perfect people,
I'm going to get these people.
The algorithm essentially is going to go.
I don't even know how to
spend your money because I
can't learn enough from
these two thousand people
to make decisions.
And so that's where LinkedIn
gets really tough because
you get super granular like, hey,
I'm going to pinpoint these people.
And at this point, honestly,
like the AI targeting is getting so good.
You just, it bases off your copy.
So that's why in your copy,
if you're running local ads,
the things I see for
biggest issues sound silly
is people do not put their
location where they're at.
Big one.
So I've had in the last week,
I've already seen three physical therapy,
local clinic ads.
One was in Jacksonville, Florida.
I'm in Pittsburgh.
One was in Phoenix.
I'm in Pittsburgh.
One was in somewhere in Washington.
I'm in Pittsburgh, right?
So like, you're like,
you know and they didn't
even say where they where
their clinic was located in
the app I mean so I had to
click it I was like oh is
this a pittsburgh one click
nope it's not right uh and
so really basic things like
uh setting yourself up for
like are you even putting
the the town name that you're in
uh you know it's gonna make
a huge difference but to
answer your question
thumbtack I've seen people
have decent success um more
hit or miss I find it more
for home services people
crush on that so we have a
lot of clients who are in
home services and thumbtack
is angie's list is huge for
uh her I forget what the
other one's called door
next door or something um
they crush uh bark bark is one of them
Bark.
Yeah.
For PT, not as much.
But Google ads and Facebook
just tried and true.
TikTok for a while was working.
I have found TikTok is just,
it hasn't been as consistent on my end,
at least just from what I've seen.
So kind of tried and true.
Some of the platforms too,
TikTok's ad platform is
just further behind than
say Facebook or Instagram
and is consistent.
much as it sucks,
it's still the best one out
there in terms of like sophistication.
And then Google and YouTube
are kind of behind it.
But yeah.
We probably got time for one
more question.
What do you got for Will?
Dave, I got one last question for you,
man.
What's working on the Google
ad side for you?
I know you're,
are you optimizing for calls?
Last time I remember is
probably months ago,
you pulled up your screenshots and stuff.
Are you, who are you targeting on Google?
What's working for you?
And what are you optimizing for?
Yeah, so we're optimizing for conversions.
In terms of the campaigns,
we have home physical therapy.
So that's either we get
people that respond to that ad.
It's either they're older,
they have walking mobility issues,
or they're very busy.
And I got a little thumbs up there.
They're very busy,
like a busy professional.
They just don't want to take
their kids to an office or themselves.
Like they try to go to an
office and they can't get
like a seven or eight a.m.
appointment or they can't
get like a seven or eight p.m.
appointment.
And I have therapists that do those times.
And we go to them.
We go to their apartment.
We're running lower back
pain sciatica leads as well.
That's a different campaign.
We have another campaign for neck pain.
I have a campaign for Parkinson's.
And that is...
Uh, that's actually a downloadable.
It's like a, it's like a PDF, um,
about like a healthier
lifestyle or something.
Um, so they get like a,
that's actually like a, uh, actually you,
you helped me with that, um, with,
with building out the, uh,
the go high level account and all that.
Um,
I think that's that's the
most part of the different
campaigns that we're running.
And I just I basically turn
that up and down based off
of like my therapist
availability and demand and all that.
And so the last I checked, it was like
say I can pull up an email
of one of the recent
reports but the the
conversion amount is kind
of like in the one hundred
two hundred dollar range
which I'm fine with because
that and that might sound
more expensive or you know
crazy compared to other
owners or other other
practices out there but like again
I've used now this same exact ad login,
the same ad profile for
five or six years or something,
and just basically turn it up or down.
And then if we're good, if...
If I have therapists that
like they don't have any
openings or whatever,
then we just turn all the
ads down to like a dollar a day budget.
So I've never paused the campaigns.
I've never paused them ever
because I was told like if you do that,
if you turn them off or whatever,
then you turn it back on.
Things can be wacky or whatever.
So like, you know, Ron Miller,
he helped me with this guy
that set him up five,
six something years ago.
Everything has been.
good, I will comment and say,
and I don't know what you're saying,
but I would say that it's
getting more expensive.
But I also heard Alex Ramosi say, you know,
people complain about leads, right?
Every owner complains about
leads and lead costs right now.
And he says,
the leads will never be
cheaper than today.
Like moving forward,
like the leads will always
be more expensive, right?
So
Barring any technological
crazy happenings like Facebook interest.
It's like inflation.
I hear it all the time.
Advertising is getting expensive.
So are eggs.
Wait a month.
Are you waiting for it to go down?
Hey, it's going to be.
Dave,
thanks for sharing that because I'm
just curious what you're running.
We have time for one quick last question.
I'm super fascinated.
Jimmy, I got a question for you.
So I came into this world with digital.
You were back when radio was
still like a primary advertiser,
still is for a lot of places, but like,
what did it cost to like
put ads on the radio back then?
Like I think if Dave and I,
we can set our own budgets, right?
We can go,
we can spend as little as a dollar a day.
I'm assuming with radio stuff,
it was like fixed costs.
How did that, like,
I'm super curious how that worked.
Oh, it was let's make a deal.
I mean, so it depended on market size.
It depended on where, what station.
Like here's something that's
going to make you go bananas.
Have you heard of the company Arbitron?
Arbitron were the people
that used to put boxes on
top of TVs and they would
like monitor what station
you were actually watching.
And that was an objective way of doing it,
right?
You got a box, you attached it,
they paid you like eleven
dollars to like do that.
That was the Nielsen ratings, right?
Yeah.
Arbitron was for radio.
Arbitron would send out diaries,
the little books that you
had to fill out for like the SATs,
like your essay book,
and they would just mail
them out to zip codes.
If you got an Arbitron book,
you essentially were
representing forty thousand,
ninety thousand people.
And you would write down on Monday,
I listened to this radio
station for one hour.
Right.
So if your brother in law
got an Arbitron book and they wrote that,
I listened to that guy's
radio station one hundred
and sixty eight hours a week.
You just won the lottery and
you would be dumbfounded.
The return rate on those
books because they were
paying people like eight dollars a week.
to do that.
So you want to talk about
like my bonus and my radio
stations rankings that I
then turn that over to a
sales team to then go say
we're number one in males,
eighteen to twenty five or women,
twenty five to thirty four.
So that's where I learned quick.
You either sell by the
numbers and you die by the
numbers or you sell by image.
And I watched really skilled
salespeople walk in.
Here's a quick story I've told us before.
It's fast, I promise.
I got brought up because I
was the afternoon guy and I
was the I ran the radio station,
this rock radio station in
northeast Pennsylvania.
Right.
Fifty thousand watt flamethrower.
And we walked into this guy's restaurant.
He owned like a chain of restaurants,
local chain in northeast Pennsylvania.
Never wanted to advertise.
John Crawford,
my sales manager at the time, was like,
this is Jimmy.
I'm bringing him in because
I want you to see the guy
who's going to be talking
about your restaurants every single day.
And this guy was like,
nobody listens to that radio station.
They listen to another station.
John closed his book, right?
Looked like he was starting
to pack up and goes, all right, yeah,
no worries, man.
Tomorrow at five o'clock, though,
I want you listening to
Jimmy because Jimmy's going
to tell everybody your
restaurant has rats.
And he goes, you can't do that.
You can't do that.
He goes, don't worry about it.
Nobody listens to Jimmy.
And they go, all right, all right,
all right, sit down, sit down, sit down.
That's right.
So we're talking, we're negotiating.
So in terms of how much it costs,
That's like some mafia negotiation.
I want some mafia level stuff.
Did you have minimums?
Like it couldn't go below a
certain minimum?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they had guardrails.
I mean,
I'm going to say our guardrail was
like a dollar a second.
So you wanted a sixty second ad spot.
And that was also like we
were on the sixties.
Nobody's running a sixty second ad now.
Yeah.
I mean,
I started when I was doing podcast
advertising ten years ago,
I was like a sixty or a thirty.
Now I'm doing tens or
fifteens like because I'd
rather do I'd rather do volume.
So, I mean,
I haven't said this like publicly.
I think I've said it to Tony or Dave,
like for nine and a half years,
I've essentially averaged
two episodes a week.
I'm going to five now
because I've also got.
virtual assistants or editors that I mean,
I edited the first nine
hundred and seventy episodes myself.
And then if I had someone
like Will or Tony or Dave around me,
they'd be like, why are you doing that?
I'm like, well,
because I'm the only person
who can do it right and
take two hours to teach one
other person to do it for.
That and you could be doing
you could be recording two
episodes while they're
editing the other one.
So I figured that out.
But yeah, I mean,
in northeast Pennsylvania,
that was the seventieth biggest.
It's also DME like marketing area.
We were like market seventy
or something like that.
So we were I mean,
my realization was making
we were gross in five or
six million a year, which wasn't bad.
And we had four stations in one building.
So I went from running – I went from being,
like,
the number two at a station to
running a station to
running two stations.
I'll tell – that's a story
for a different time,
how I sort of stole a radio station.
And, like, for good reason, though,
to save my staff, I stole it.
To me, there's got to be – like,
that's – I would love to
tune into an episode.
I'd want to keep you guys posted.
I'll tell that.
It was bad, but it was also good.
Like,
I had to steal the radio station from
one person to save three.
And I was like,
I'll do that trolley
problem math every day.
I'd still do it.
So –
One day,
I'd love to hear a background
story on like how
advertising and marketing
and that kind of side of
things has changed from that world of,
and probably what it is now.
Radio still is obviously going on,
just how they've adjusted
or how they're doing it.
Yeah, no, I was looked at,
because when this thing came out,
I was twenty eight and I was
like I did the math real
quick and I was like, oh,
time and space aren't going
to matter anymore.
And local radio relies on
time and location.
So I did the middle aged white guy thing.
I tried law school.
Nope.
Try business school.
Also, nope,
because I didn't have my DNA down yet.
Knew those things should
have known those things would work.
And PT.
All right.
This seems good.
Then I got to school and I was like, shit,
this was should have also
been a nope in a clinic anyway, all day.
And it should have been a nope.
So, yeah, we can talk about that.
So Will,
we finished the show with parting shots.
We'll go around the table.
Let's start with you though.
What is your parting shot for today?
If you're gonna run paid traffic,
take it serious and spend
the couple hours learning
the backend side of stuff.
So that way, if you have great copy,
great images,
they're actually pay off for
you big time.
So I'll talk to you.
Do the simple stuff, man.
All right, guys, I'm going to say, Will,
I would love,
and I think everybody agrees,
to have you back when we do
an episode with Dave where
we're talking about
building the financial
structure within the
business so that we can sell it,
we can do something with it.
Like we're putting all this time, effort,
money into building an asset,
but it has to have value
that goes beyond just us,
whether it's an exit
strategy or whatever.
We need to get you back on
to talk about that.
Scott thinks that Will
should have a weekly segment.
We've also did things in
radio where we record a segment.
You could always just do a
moment with Will and then
just look at it.
Hey, guys,
here's my weekly moment with Will.
I'll represent the blog
community for everyone out there.
I love it.
My parting shot is look more
into understanding or
knowing the value of your time.
I think Will put it really well.
And maybe reach out to Will, Alex,
and get a little insight
from what they help other practice owners,
other business owners about.
And even the thing that you
mentioned earlier about the
things that like suck your
energy versus give you
energy and like the things
that suck your energy,
you could probably outsource.
Right.
So on the show, we talked about like,
you know, having a cleaning person or,
you know,
paying someone to do other
things around your home or
whatever it might be or
your clinic like that.
And Tony painted his clinic,
the inside of his clinic,
not too long ago.
But he did it with his family.
So that gave him energy.
That gave the family a task
or a job or something to do together.
So it didn't suck Tony's energy.
It was something that they did together.
Great.
But if you're like a single
practice owner and you're
super busy and you need to
work on your finances,
you need to talk to Will
and Alex at CEO Finance Academy,
and you're valuing your
hourly rate at a certain dollar amount,
and it probably makes sense
to outsource the painting
because that's going to
suck the energy from you.
So think about your hourly rate,
your hourly value,
and what types of things
you can get off your plate.
Because like Will said,
you're either paying with
your money or you're paying
with your time and effort.
Yeah.
I would say, is it my turn, do I go,
or is it Tony's turn?
Yeah, all right, I'll go.
Yeah,
understand what business you're in
and check your ego.
Like, I can do that.
How hard can Facebook ads be?
Watch, look, I got an ad up.
Look, look, I clicked.
There's the ad.
There it is.
But check your ego.
Is it performing well, right?
So actually,
someone just shared a great
graphic that goes around
every once in a while with
a Dunning-Kruger effect, right?
I am dumb.
I'm so smart.
I'm a genius.
Or Valley of Despair.
It's like, we're all really...
repeated beginners, right?
Lifelong learners.
It's like, well,
you got to be dumb every once in a while.
This new thing that came out,
I started working with our
company with AI.
I was like, hi, I'm Jimmy.
I'm dumb.
Teach me about AI.
And in a month, you know, Hormozy says,
if you're willing to be bad
at something for a hundred days,
you will beat everybody
like be bad at a hundred days.
Right.
And what are you willing to
be bad at a hundred days at
the things that give you energy,
the things you're curious about,
but maybe not good at just yet.
All right, guys.
And that's the show.
I've probably known Will for
about ten years now on social media.
I've never,
never to this day ever heard
anybody say anything negative.
Everything has been positive.
Like, Will,
you were just an amazing person.
Thank you so much for coming, joining us.
Jimmy, wrap it up.
Forward tease.
We've actually just got an email scandal.
We've got the dirt on Will Boyd.
Tune in Tuesday.
I usually block them all.
That's why you never hear anything back.
This is how you get people
to tune in to you.
You give them something.
We've got breaking news on Tuesday,
but you have to tune in on
Tuesday to find out what we
found out about.
Now, Will, thanks for having me, guys.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Will.
That was fun.