I was thinking about making
the next year's like theme
be a decade under the influence.
A nice little nice fact that
the podcast under the influence.
I like that a lot.
Thanks for saying yes.
Ten years ago.
Yeah, I can't even believe it.
It's too easy.
Yeah, to a PT student who was like, hi,
I have a podcast.
I'm not sure if you know
what that is because it's weird.
It's new.
Will you be on it?
And then you and a handful
of others were like, sure, say less.
Yeah, no,
I remember that the inaugural six pack.
I actually remember that
recording very vividly.
Um, yeah, like very vividly.
And like,
I remember I was just starting up
doc and like,
I didn't have a good
straight answer for you, uh,
for your question of like,
what does a day in the life look like for,
for me?
And I was like, it was weird.
Cause it was like startup and like,
there was no schedule, you know?
It was like,
there's days where I was like
basically twiddling my thumbs going, Oh,
I hope we make money.
You know?
And like there are other
days where I was like,
I don't know if I'm going to
be able to contain myself
today because there's just
too much work to do so
right feast or famine well
it's hard so I mentioned
you know when I reached out
just for the audience
context uh ben was one of
the inaugural six pack I
did a six pack of episodes
to release it wasn't
planned to go much further
than that like I wasn't
thinking like well here's
the first six pack let's
see where this thing goes
like I was sort of doing
six and I was gonna like
put it out into the world
and just sort of like
That was it.
Thanks, everybody.
Like, good night.
Right.
Mission accomplished.
Right.
And I think we saw a little
momentum and I don't think
it was necessarily because
of what I did or any of the
guests said that was magic.
I think there was a
profession that had so many
questions and podcasting
hadn't really reached its peak yet.
I mean, right now at this point,
I feel like more people
have a podcast than don't have a podcast.
Right.
I think it was like,
there wasn't a great way to
go deeper long.
It wasn't really,
there was no such thing as
long form content is what
I'm guessing at.
And podcasting was like ripe for it.
And then the opposite,
instead of having to be sports center,
you could be,
you could go deep an inch
wide and a mile deep on
something so random as PT.
And now we've seen people go
even more niche.
Like I'm just doing a home
health show about PT and
So, all right, so there's the context.
So I reached back out to you.
I was like, listen,
I'm coming up on ten years.
I want to have people back
on the show who were there
in the beginning.
And I sort of prompted you by saying like,
well,
let's talk about what's changed or
things that's changed and
stayed the same.
How do you think both you
and the profession,
this is a big question to start,
have evolved in the last ten years?
I mean,
that's such a good timed question
because right now
You know,
if you followed me like by proxy into,
you know, Jimmy's podcast here,
you probably knew me from
like work from updoc or
from like salary or job market stuff.
And so I'm actually
releasing a year ten pulse.
Like we're hoping to get it out this year.
And actually,
that's one of the major
questions is on like the
macro slash meta is like,
what actually happened
these last ten years?
You know, like what really happened?
Where are we now?
And, you know, so I say, you know,
how has the profession evolved?
Um, difficultly apologize for that.
That was my alarm that just
went off of going,
I better check in to make
sure Jimmy's like hope safely.
Um, but yeah,
I think our profession
evolved with difficulty.
Um, I think that, uh, you know, ten,
you know, five years ago,
if you can even believe it
was twenty twenty.
So, you know, so that's nuts, you know,
maybe four on the on the
rolling calendar year.
So, you know, for half of it,
Between twenty fifteen and
before the embarkation of twenty twenty,
I think that our profession evolved very,
very quickly.
It really tried to create
professional roots of excellence.
I think we really tried to
hammer in hyper specialization.
If you look back.
You know,
you looked at a lot of people
that had OCSs, SCSs,
they were getting residencies,
fellowships.
They were getting a lot of
the what I call the
corporate certification.
So like MDT, you know, COMT, SFMA,
like that was really hot
back in the mid-twenty
teens into twenty twenty.
And then all of a sudden, poof,
none of that mattered.
Right.
At all.
And and then we got hit with
a lot of different call it
world happenings.
Right.
And it's like something that
I probably said.
I say this on every podcast
and it bugs the heck out of my wife.
So I'm just going to do it again.
She's pretty much the
smartest person I know.
And, you know, she she tells me that,
you know,
sometimes you just don't get to
control who you are in time.
right and like you don't get
to control if you were born
into the greatest
generation you don't get to
control if you're born into
you know ten thousand bc or
the nineteen thirties
depression right like you
just you are where you are
these are the realities you
get to deal with and it's
on us to make the most of
it and I think that when
twenty twenty hit we really
did evolve with difficulty
because all of a sudden
what was a very brick and
mortar high human touch
experience suddenly turned
into a how do we even deliver this
um and so I think since then
both for economic reasons
world happenstance um as
well as the embarkation of
ai and just like the last
what eighteen months or so
yeah we are evolving with
difficulty because um we're
not a very you know and I I
say this with so much love
because you know I grew up
in this profession so to
speak you know I I became a
professional because I was
a patient first such a
common story in our world right and um
We like to hold to our roots.
We believe very deeply in
some of these deep-seated
things that evolved with
our North American or maybe
our USA-based profession
since the post-polio era.
So much of that has carried through.
I feel like with the
disruption we've seen in
just even the last three years or so,
we've evolved with
Great amount of difficulty
because it's hard for such
a large-hearted emotion on
sleeve profession to change
with some of these rapid changing times.
To answer your second question,
how have I evolved?
I've calmed down.
Okay.
What does that mean?
I've calmed down a little bit.
Um, you know, I've, uh, I've moved from,
uh, entrepreneurial, uh, you know,
heavy grind set type stage.
Uh, I've shifted into academics.
So, um, you know, I'm a professor and,
and like a CU educator.
Now I still do consulting work, but again,
stepped away from that grind set of, uh,
of entrepreneurial XYZ.
And some of that's also kind
of toned down to that was a
very big emphasis in like
the late twenty teens.
It's like, you know, like the go get it,
cash PT, you know,
start up like we're just
going to make this huge thing.
I don't care about days off type mindset.
And that's very much the
opposite of like the the
workplace cultural orientation right now.
That's a big, you're reading my mind.
We're gonna get to that in a little bit,
but I wanna go deeper and
double click on one of the
things that you had just said.
And you just listed a ton of
hats that you've worn in
the last ten years.
COO, CFO, professor, marketer, educator.
Now I'll ask a question
globally about that.
What's been the most
unexpected turn in your
career path and what did it
teach you personally about
professional growth?
So I would say it was the startup.
That was not part of the roadmap.
you know, where, where I, where I,
how I got here.
And I forget if we talked about, like,
I have such a vivid memory of,
of like the,
like the latter half of our conversation.
And I forget if we talked
about how I got to this point,
I'm pretty sure we did because, um,
you know, that, that was,
I think part of the, uh,
part of the whole six pack idea was like,
who are these six individuals?
You know,
how did they get here and whatnot?
And so just for the audience,
so you don't have to scroll back like
I wasn't a PT first.
I was an engineer before I was a PT.
And the way I got into the
startup world was I hit a
couple of glass ceilings in
the corporate health acute
care environment.
And my hospital CEO, now retired,
was mentoring me and said, look,
if you want to make an impact beyond
the therapy department, so to speak,
you've got to get an MBA or an MPH,
or you have to be something
beyond your clinical doctorate,
just because in the
healthcare environment,
especially corporate healthcare,
they don't care.
They don't even care if you're an MD,
because you take a look at
most of the corporate
executive boardroom representatives,
and most of the directors,
most of the C-suite folks,
they're accountants, or they're like,
they're something else.
They're not clinicians.
Um, and so I went to get the MBA, uh,
that actually was also a
little too early in the career path.
And so it just turned out through, um,
then Twitter, uh,
different podcasts and blogs reach out.
I was blogging at the time.
And kind of like the podcast
space just wasn't many PT blogs.
And I was talking a lot
about just the things that
nobody wanted to talk about
in the therapy, primarily money.
And that's what formed then
UpDoc Media and now UpDoc Inc,
along with a couple other
companies that we started
and I've slowly stepped away from.
That was the biggest pivot.
It was never the plan for me
to go into business for myself.
It was always me to go back
to the corporate health environment,
some kind of triumphal
return with my MBA and be like, ha,
here I am again.
Yeah, exactly.
We're going to change things
now at a policy level.
And it turns out that that didn't happen.
But I did change things at
an influence level.
How'd that feel?
Like,
like it's almost like counting Monte
Cristo, right?
The count was like, I'm going to return.
I'm going to show them what
they missed out on.
And then by the time you get there,
you're like,
I sort of don't care about
proving them wrong.
What I found is a way to prove my,
find a place,
create a place for myself
that I'm even happier.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's so funny that you
mentioned that because at one of the CSMs,
and I feel like you and I,
like whenever I do,
I don't come to CSMs as
often as I like to,
but anytime that we are,
we always somehow,
we always like hitch the
same room or the same hall patterns,
you know?
And at one point I ran into
my old boss's boss, right?
And it was one of those like weird,
weird moments where that
boss almost didn't recognize me, right?
And I was like,
Yikes, you know?
And what was really,
really interesting was just
kind of looking at the crew
they were with and just
kind of just gating the environment.
I was like, wow,
y'all haven't changed at all.
Like not a single bit, you know?
Like you're still doing the same things.
You're still thinking the
same things like professionally,
clinically, all of it.
And I was just like,
yikes,
there has been zero growth here at all.
What was once, like you said,
I'm going to get back and
prove you all wrong, turned into a very,
almost like a pathos type
situation where I was just like, oh man,
I kind of feel bad for you now.
All that cathartic
vindiction type
professional righteous
indignation just evaporated
in that moment.
And I was just like,
wow, there's been zero at all, no change.
And I think that the feeling
that I can really describe
was a little bit of relief
that I didn't return to that environment.
Cause I think that would
have sapped me dry, you know, that to,
to know that.
And I see this a lot in my
consulting work is there's there's,
we talk about this a lot
we're going to release in
the pulse and you know like
there's always this
question of like what are
the true barriers of high
team performance and
excellent um organizational
growth that kind of stuff
culture uh etc and we've
long identified the middle
management link to be a
problem not necessarily
because of the middle
managers are there but
because the structure of
the the organizations but
at the same time there are
certain people that are in
play that have been there
for years and years and
years and years right and
then I talked about this at um
The NARA conference,
for those of you who don't know,
it's the National
Association of Rehab
Agencies and Providers.
And it's kind of private practice-esque.
All to say that I was
speaking on workforce
engagement and organizational excellence.
And I said, look,
there are managers and
there are managers.
And some are there because
they've been there forever
and that's where they do
the least amount of damage.
And some are there because
they're a linchpin and
they've been there forever.
And if we lost them,
the whole department would evaporate.
And so all of those type of
thoughts and feelings flooded through.
And I just realized that, wow,
now this is good.
Like where I am is good.
I didn't need to go back to
that corporate environment.
I didn't need to go back in
that same rigmarole.
And I was making plenty
difference doing what I was doing,
which at the time was
putting out industry
reports and kind of
transparent information
pieces that just didn't exist, you know,
and now it does, which is really,
really great.
So talk about the pulse.
I remember, I mean, again,
I was still a student when
I think you put out the first one,
was that eight and a half?
Yeah.
And the way you would get
salary information was like this,
you'd roll into, I mean,
I don't even know if there
were Facebook groups then,
you'd roll onto Twitter and
you'd ask a question and be like, hi,
I'm in this area of the country,
I'm taking this job,
what should I be asking for?
And then you would get a wild- Oh yeah.
You'd go into the comments of that,
and you would get just a
wild amount of responses,
some just not even realistic,
but you never knew.
And then you were like, well,
let's do the data on this,
and you created sort of that thing.
So talk about what it is and
if people haven't
downloaded it or consumed it,
what it was and what it has become.
Yeah.
That's great.
So what it was,
was actually a version two
point zero of an MBA,
like it was like the senior year,
if you will,
of an MBA coursework capstone project.
And, you know,
we're supposed to be like a
huge industry report,
like a perspective and stuff like that.
So it was one segment of that was like,
hey, how are you?
What's the actual like
national footprint map work
of what are being paid and so forth?
How it did come about is
like what you said, then Twitter.
I don't think there was any
Facebook groups.
If it did,
maybe the DPT student group just started.
But it was just like airwaves of like, hey,
I'm in.
I'm making this up.
Like, Illinois,
I'm about to take a job for
twenty seven dollars an hour.
Is this OK?
Right.
No, no one had any clue.
Right.
And like I had some because
I ran that report.
So I had like kind of a more
of a macro lens look of it.
But.
It's also very specific by like zip code,
right?
And you mentioned now you're
a little bit more rural, right?
So rural versus city versus suburban,
that's different.
Different states have different norms.
And so what it used to be
was I would send out these,
I still use Google Forms
just because everybody trusts it.
I sent out these Google form
surveys of like, hey,
tell me what you're getting paid.
It's fully anonymous.
Drop all the information you
could possibly drop that
you're comfortable with.
I will trend these and I
will publish the raw data.
That's what it was.
And that's what it continues to be.
This year will be a little
bit different because we're
asking different questions,
but that's what it continues to be.
So it was the first and to
my understanding, one of two, I think.
open source data pool sets.
I think I'm the only one
that runs it in the kind of
a high statistical analysis
type environment.
But all to say,
it is a open source data pool.
It primarily focuses in rehab therapy.
So PT, OT, speech, PTA, OTA, SLPAs.
But we have recreational therapists,
nurses, pharmacists, PAs.
They all drop their information in there.
They had a dentist once put
their information in there.
I was like, wow, we're crossing the gaps.
And so we trend for the per
annum equivalent.
Um,
because everybody will drop in like
their hourly versus their
annual versus their PRN
versus the travel.
We threw that in there, uh,
even experience, uh, factors, uh,
as specific as zip code.
And so we trended all that stuff out, uh,
year over year,
we focus on slightly different pieces,
but we always publish the raw data.
So you can search for information like,
okay, where's the zip code of, you know,
nine to one Oh nine.
And, um,
how to get paid their PTAs or so forth.
But then we also give like
deep impressions as a
periodical so you can just read it.
And so it's read by
candidates and hiring managers alike.
And you can search for yourself,
like what is the actual norm?
And we throw the outliers out there,
the experience factors,
um if specialty even helps
um and spoiler alert uh
kind of none of it does uh
what helps the most it
seems to be his tenure so
the longer you're at a
place seems to get you paid
the most um the first year
it was like the most
striking because we had
this you know it was like
the open section comment of
uh you know what else you
need to know and it was you
could tell right it's like
like back in like the aol
aim messenger days you can
tell when somebody's like
really haughty about their
words and you're just kind
of typing it in a certain
way and this guy was like
or gal, I don't,
I have no idea who this person was,
but it was like, you know,
I'm a senior therapist with, with, with,
with, with, with, with, with, with, with,
with, with, with, with, with,
I would say yours and web PT, like they're,
they're very like wide in
terms of profession,
but I would say those are the,
those were the two that didn't exist.
And when they did, it was the, it was,
it was, it was like, you know,
blood to a shark because we,
all we had was the comment section.
And that was just one person's opinion.
And maybe they'd give some hard numbers,
but probably not.
So yours was the first one
where people could actually
say and you would put the
end on how many pieces of
data you were drawing that conclusion.
It's right there.
I actually I mean,
there's over the years that we run it,
I think we've there's been
three people that have
caught any kind of error or
had kind of protest.
And I think only one of them
was truly like a mathematical error.
And so people have checked our work.
You know, I welcome it.
Like usually at the very bottom, like here,
here's like the last like
eight years of raw data.
Have at it, guys.
And now with like, you know,
with general AI,
I'm sure somebody is like
going in there now going like, hey,
is this, you know, depending on his math,
right?
You know, that's cool.
I mean,
that's that's what this whole thing
was about.
The mission of the pulse
really was so that you
could have a pulse on the job market.
in the macro, in the micro, in the meta,
and in a way where you
could use it for yourself,
whether you're a applicant
or a hiring manager,
just like FYI for career
choices down the line.
And it was always about wage transparency.
And more importantly, in my opinion,
was wage literacy.
Yeah, being able to understand it.
Well, something different,
you talked about how long
you're at an organization.
That might be a factor.
Let's talk about versatility.
You're a big advocate for
the idea that your DPT can take you
Anywhere.
I'm a podcaster for Christmas sake.
What do clinicians need to
hear right now in twenty
twenty five about stepping
outside of that traditional
clinical path that a lot of
people are showing interest in?
Oh, yeah.
Huge.
And it's honestly and this
is where I feel like it
goes back to the early part
of today's episode is, you know,
we've evolved with great difficulty.
It's the same message I gave, I think,
in like twenty sixteen, seventeen,
which is the whole world is open to you.
it really really is um I I
know that there's there's
still a stigma it's less so
I think when I was um
growing up in the
profession excuse me uh
there's this idea that you
were like a traitor if you
weren't hands-on patients
or in the clinic walls or
in the facility uh now less
so right I mean there's
telehealth there's a lot of
different things um but if
you take a look at a lot of
other professions and I
would I would advise you
take a look at like uh
pharmacists and nurses um
They cover a lot more range.
And there's also regions for
that because of how
upstream they are in the
health care latticework.
But at the same time,
it doesn't have to be the case.
I was an engineer before.
There's a lot of people I've met,
especially at private practice events,
where it's like their fourth career.
They were like farmers and
restaurateurs and real estate agents.
And they're like, no, I need to do this.
This is my calling.
So what I think everyone needs to hear,
if you're looking to step out of that,
whether it's out of burnout
or out of interest of just
looking at something different,
is that the world truly is open to you.
However, it's a numbers game.
I think that's what's really
difficult for PTs and PTAs
to understand is we are
part of such a high-performing
like self, what's the best word for this?
Like self-critical profession.
You know, like we're perfectionists.
Most of us are very type A professionally,
but very type B corporately.
you know we uh we're very
down on ourselves more so
than I think anybody else
ever will be and we have
this massive imposter
syndrome and and none of
that is bad per se it's
just kind of the makeup of
what draws folks to the
profession I feel but it is
a numbers game so if you're
looking to get into
corporate management or
into marketing or into
media or into research or
into tech or into anything else
you're going to have to apply yourself,
whether it's through actual
job applications or just
the attempts that you're trying.
I'm just gonna throw out a number, like,
ten times more than the average bear,
right?
And so it's going to require
you to have thick enough skin to apply to,
like,
a hundred different jobs and receive
work from only one or two of them.
Because it really is a numbers game.
Somebody, like,
a human eye needs to take a look at you,
whether it's on the application,
the AI application portal,
the PDF that you're printed
out or emailed or cold called with,
and go,
you know what, like,
I'll take a look at this, right,
says the hiring manager and go, huh,
wonder why a PT wants to
apply for this job.
That's weird.
Like,
I'm in my third coffee and I could
mentally withstand this.
Let's give this person a call, right?
Like, that's, that's going to be the case.
And it can be emotionally damaging to,
you know,
throw out like a thousand
applications and receive nothing back,
right?
It's just like, gee,
like really no one wants me
at all after all this,
but it's not that no one wants you.
It's that you just have to
play enough of a numbers
game to get noticed.
And I think that's the reality of it.
It shouldn't be that way,
but also kind of earlier in
the podcast has mentioned,
we have to play within the
reality that we're,
we found ourselves find ourselves in and,
in order to get the next step up,
in order to change that
reality for ourselves and others.
Yeah, agreed.
Let's take a different route.
You've worked at high levels
in business and leadership.
You've been in boardrooms
that maybe not everybody
has been or will be in, and that's okay.
What can you steal from the
boardroom and give to someone right now?
What's a lesson from a
boardroom that every new
grad should hear before
starting their career?
Um, that's such a great, like again,
compliments.
I'm going to push back on
something you said earlier today, Jimmy,
is that I disagree with the
fact that I think you did
do something special.
I think you had the
professional background for this.
Um,
but I also feel like you have a
naturally curious mind, you know,
that's something that I
feel like we always connected on, um,
forever, you know,
it's something I really.
appreciated when I got to
know you at first when
you're still a student is
that you thought beyond
that kind of student
acquisition mind into like,
how do I like dig deeper
into like the nature of this profession?
So kudos to you.
That said, the boardroom.
No one ever really thinks
about the boardroom.
I don't think like I think
people think they know it exists, right?
But they don't understand
what a board of director does,
whether it's a board of directors,
if it's executive advisor board,
or if it's like a managing director board,
like this,
it's a deeper piece of the
American organizational
corporate culture.
Big or small, that just exists, right?
And so I think it's
important to define what that piece is,
and then we can glean from
the lessons of it.
So for most boards,
whether a board of directors, trustees,
what have you,
there's a group of
individuals either voted in
or appointed in,
depending on the corporate structure,
to essentially oversee and
govern the CEO and the rest
of the C-suite.
That's their job.
Often it's a mixture of
folks that have direct
stake interest in it,
whether it's through equity
finances or their stakeholders,
like they'll be influenced
by that particular
corporation or entity or organization.
And often they try to get folks that are,
quote, lay people that
don't know anything about
the inner works of the
profession because they
bring a third eye lens that, you know,
if you're too close to something,
you just can't see.
So the the board of any kind
of organization,
typically their job is to
make sure that the C-suite
is doing their job and that
they can prescribe grand
stakes like hundred eighty
degree arc visions of like, hey,
let's go over there or
let's go over here.
And then the C-suite can
choose how they want to get there.
And so what happens in the
boardroom is really
fascinating because it's a
grade A lesson on intra
organizational politics.
And I think the first thing
I'll share a couple.
First thing I think that
most people need to hear is
that board members
typically are in service
because they really do care.
And it's not about the money
for them because most of
them are either volunteers
or they get like a basic stipend.
And then the stipend has to
be wiggled depending on how
much liability they want to take on.
So as an example,
I'm actually the president
of a school board.
And so I take like a driving stipend.
So I don't have like any
kind of weird liability on
top of me after that.
And so even in that board, right,
every single board member
deeply cares about the
success of the school, the students,
the parents, the guardians, and so forth,
the teachers, especially.
We care a lot about the teachers.
And that's the same thing as
most of these corporate
boardrooms is none of the
board members are there like, you know,
Monty Burns from Simpsons going,
how can I steal from the little man?
You know, like it's, that doesn't happen.
They're, they're typically very, I mean,
I've had board members come in with like,
you know, and like, you know, sorry,
you know, like I, I, I can,
I feel like I can say this was years,
this is years ago.
It's past like the thing, but it's like,
they're like,
I don't care about how the
executives get paid.
I care about how the teachers get paid,
right.
How the line staff get paid.
And that's very common
thread in these executive boardrooms.
I think the second thing
really is that there's not
always enough power there
for them to influence changes downstream,
right?
They can choose the C-suite
and to a certain degree,
like call it like the
executive VPs or the VPs.
But between the VP line and
the line managers,
that's all up to the organization.
And I think that's where a
lot of frustration occurs
is that they're like,
we have this great CEO,
like we love them.
But like, how come our GM at this,
you know,
or this regional manager at this
area sucks so bad, you know, it's like,
can't the board do something?
Well, the answer actually is no,
it's outside of their jurisdiction.
Otherwise,
they're an overreaching board
that creates a lot of
different conflict and so forth.
So I think, you know,
to all to say that board members,
a lot of these organizations,
large and small,
they really do care about
the organization.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be there.
It's a lot of stress.
It's a lot of time management.
They're reading things and
dealing with decisions that
no one should ever have to deal with,
honestly.
And so they really do care.
They wouldn't be there otherwise.
They don't get paid enough
for that problem.
Right.
You know, the CEO, CEO, CFO,
they probably are paid
enough for that problem,
but the board members aren't.
But they only influence so much.
And so this is the piece I
think everyone needs to
hear is if you do have a concern,
reach out to your board.
Most boards are compliant
under certain public access
information laws.
So they can't just directly
connect with you,
but you can connect with them.
So most of them have a hotline.
Like my school board has a hotline.
Every other corporate or
executive advisory board
I've served in has a
hotline and every board
that I have or just
executive room that I've consulted for,
they have a hotline.
It's all inbound.
They can't say anything
outward just because
there's a lot of regulations there.
But reach out to them with your concerns.
You know, you don't have to flame anybody.
But, you know, if you do have concerns,
bring it up because then
they can change it at a
procedural and policy level.
Yeah.
It's a smart, smart piece of advice.
All right.
Last thing I'll ask before
we get into a speed round.
Awesome.
How has your definition of
success changed since twenty fourteen?
We alluded to it not long ago.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, first it was like,
I can't wait to come back
and triumphant return and
show how I've changed.
Yeah.
But.
But the second part of that question,
after your definition of
success has changed in the last ten years,
what do you hope younger
PTs that maybe are
listening to this right now
focus on more than just title or salary?
Yeah,
I think the best way to describe this
is just to describe what my
current definition of
success is and then go back.
So my current definition of
success is time.
So time,
I think I started saying this
around twenty nineteen.
Time is the one commodity
you don't get back.
Right.
And time is a vehicle for value.
It almost exists outside of
the tangible in that sense.
If we're going like hyper philosophical.
But the more I can maximize my time,
the more successful I feel that I am.
And that's across all boundaries.
You know, like I've.
I believe strongly that the
human experience is split
into four macros, if you will.
There's the physical, the intellectual,
the emotional, and the spiritual,
for lack of better terms.
And I feel like the more you
can maximize your time
investments in these four
circles and how they overlap,
the more successful you
feel like you are in life.
And so some of the physical is financial.
It's going to be we have to
it's just part of life.
But there's other things, you know,
and like ten years ago, you know,
my kid was a little baby and, you know,
there's that kind of things.
And now he's in middle school.
And so I have different
understanding of how that
time investment and time wealth,
if you will, is.
And so for other for some people,
that might mean, OK, I need to, like,
really figure out a way to
create passive income.
For others, they're like, okay,
I just need to make sure
that my day-to-day doesn't
burn me down and I can
spend good time with myself
and my family at home or go
on travels or whatever.
So to me, success right now is A, time,
and B, impact.
So how much time can I
invest in myself and
meaningfully in others?
And what does that
downstream impact look like?
know and so again for myself
um you know my son uh the
other day just really
impressed me with his
emotional intelligence and
I was just like wow kid
you're a kind kid you know
that's special and that
made like as a dad I was
like that was a win you
know that was cool and and
that was success now ten years ago
Ten years ago, I was indignant.
I was, again, a lot less calm,
a little bit more brash,
really wanted things to change overnight,
didn't care who I offended,
kind of still don't care who I offended.
I just don't try to do it anymore.
Yeah.
And back then,
success to me was radical
change yesterday, you know,
and it was and it was
change according to Ben Fung.
And, you know,
I think that's a very myopic view where,
you know,
the world is so much bigger than
my own mind.
And I didn't have the
humility or the maturity to
see at the time.
right?
Like I,
I got kind of launched into this
journey because I was like, man, uh,
whether for, for reasons or other reasons,
I hit these glass ceilings and you know,
like everyone wants me in
leadership positions except
for my bosses and like a
couple of grumpy senior therapists, um,
you know, screw them, right?
That kind of thought process
was always there.
And so success was coming back and going,
ha,
I was right the whole time you were
wrong the whole time and so forth.
And so it's very, uh,
black and white back then
it was very emotionally driven.
Now it's a little bit more, you know, uh,
a little more transcendent, you know?
And I think what young
professionals need to hear,
whether you're a pre-grad or a new grad,
really is to take a step
back and take a look at
what your next five, ten,
maybe fifteen years of life
needs to be for you to take
a look at that.
And it's going to change, right?
Like every couple of years,
your kind of life lens will change.
And that's okay.
That's just part of being human.
But, you know,
if ten years from where you
are right now and you're a
new grad and you're,
I'm just going to make it,
but you say you're in your mid-twenties,
early thirties, and you're going, okay,
I'm going to hit, you know,
what do I need?
Forty to look like for me to
feel like I didn't waste my life, right?
Because what you really
typically hear from most
people at the end of their
lives and I used to work
with a lot of geriatrics
regrets aren't based on what you did.
They're based on what you
didn't do or didn't try to at least do.
So what do you need to attempt?
now right to look back in
ten years in your forties
and go hey at least I tried
that right right I had
those experiences I had
those adventures I had
those those life tiles if
you're into the game of
life yeah well said yeah
regret regret the things
you do not the things you
don't do is a great piece
of advice I heard too all
right ben it's time for game time
All right, game time.
We're going to jump in the
PT time machine.
All right.
I'm going to throw out a series.
I'm going to throw out five topics.
Okay.
And I'll sort of frame what
I thought it looked like in
twenty fifteen.
Okay.
And then I want your your
now interpretation on that.
Right.
All right.
This is going to be good.
In twenty fifteen, social media for PTs,
I felt like was the Wild West.
Oh, man.
We were just yelling sort of in the void,
a lot of yelling at each
other instead of talking to each other.
I feel like there is still
some of that element
there's always going to be.
But I feel like we've we've
started to get better at
using it as a tool,
as a as a platform to learn
and change better than we
did in twenty fifteen.
Absolutely.
Man,
I think where it is now is interesting,
because I feel like the
conversations have
centralized based on emotional valence,
for lack of better terms.
So just full disclosure,
I am older than I look,
and I am just not on TikTok.
uh that said you know
throughout throughout the
uh the like the wave since
twenty fifteen you know it
really was like everywhere
there was like every
possible emotion every
possible topic on every
possible channel now I feel
like you got a lot more
like professional like
actual professional
engagement in something
like linkedin uh which was
supposed to be that
like what, eight years ago, they're like,
yeah,
LinkedIn's gonna be the next big thing.
It just wasn't until
probably like the last two years.
I feel like, you know,
X slash Twitter now is kind
of small circle discussions really.
And a little bit of yelling
because that's just the platform.
What's really interesting to
me is that Instagram is
really a place of like-mindedness,
I feel.
There's a couple of common
sections that are...
you know,
going to be a little bit
atrocious just because that's how it is.
Right.
Anytime you open the conversation.
But I feel like you find
that like minds will
gravitate to like minds in
the space of Instagram.
Facebook, ironically enough,
is that much more personal.
Most people don't engage on
Facebook unless you
actually know each other,
which is really interesting.
me because that just wasn't
the case back in the day
and then I'm taking off
right like there's the two
big groups I'm aware of is
the actually now three
there's a general physical
therapy group that's like
open to the all public um
there's the dpt student
group and there's like the
pt uh education networking um
know group and uh you know
those groups have ballooned
up um but even some what's
interesting to me is that a
lot of the conversations I
kind of pulled back from
those groups and they've
really come to be a little
bit more like full circle
um in terms of your natural
small group inclinations
and so I think it's a
little less wild west I
feel like for lack of
better terms I feel we're
kind of breakfast clubby
right now there we go yeah
I think we're kind of in
the breakfast club era of
social media and pt
Love it.
All right.
Marketing yourself in twenty fifteen.
We started the show.
I feel like people like yourself, myself,
we needed to explain like, no,
you controlling your own
message is necessary.
And like there are right and
wrong ways to do it.
And I feel like the tide has
turned where more people
are under at least accepting of like,
yeah, I need to do a better job of this.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think back then,
Twitter was your only real place.
And I actually can't tell
you how many new grads
actually got jobs from Twitter.
Just being on Twitter,
chatting when there's CSM
or back then APTA Next or PPS,
that's how students got jobs.
It was crazy.
I think in the
was able to leverage that was incredible.
Now, it's very much back in LinkedIn,
you know,
and also like hyping your resume
to be able to get through
some AI filters that HR
portals typically use.
But I think people do understand it now.
I think a lot more people
are using LinkedIn because
it's become that place for it.
Frustrating as it is,
which might be an off topic piece, but
I do feel that people understand it.
A lot of people are more aware,
a lot more.
I've noticed a lot more
professionals have private
Instagram handles now just
to be able to create a
little bit of dichotomy
between their personal
persona and their professional persona.
And yeah,
you do need to control that
message for yourself or you
have to be able to explain it, you know,
depending on your work history.
uh because there's some of
that contention there
depending on where you are
you know like you work for
company a wow that was
weird why did you work for
them you know are you there
for seven years you know
blah blah and you have to
be able to explain some of
those things on a human to
human element um so I
definitely think the tide
has turned people are aware
and more people have uh
come into the profession I
think it's a tech
generation thing uh just
kind of naturally
appreciating that that is
part of their professional
reality is managing their
online footprint
All right,
last one we'll do for the time machine.
I feel like ten years ago,
work-life balance was not a
phrase that we knew,
and I feel like that's
something that's got a lot
of light shed on it now in
twenty twenty five.
For sure.
Back then, actually, there was even a,
going back to the whole
entrepreneurial grind set,
there was no balance, right?
The idea was like,
if you were a hardcore
entrepreneur by mind and by creed,
by title, by life, there was no balance.
You were always on.
I don't know that that was
the healthiest way of going about it.
Now,
work-life balance is everything and
everywhere.
We're running this info for The Pulse,
and it's one of the top two
non-salary-based factors
candidates will judge if
they want to apply or
accept the position.
It's just from the feel of
walking through the clinic
or the facility and going, yeah,
I could see myself being okay here versus,
yeah,
they're going to run me into the
ground here.
And I think that managers
are very aware of it.
I think the corporate
leaders are also very aware of it.
I think that what it really is,
is that we have a coming
generation where I was, again,
my conversation, she's my muse, my wife.
And I was talking about this
because I was trying to like,
was asking her like what
should the central message
of the pulse be for year
ten right and it came back
to like one of the the the
bullet points if you will
was that there is no
work-life balance if you
don't have a life to go
back to right and I think
that that is what changed is that
Ten years ago,
I think we were just in such
a scramble professionally.
And now,
after kind of having the world
turned upside down and shaken inside out,
we kind of take a look at things and go,
you know what?
It doesn't always have to be that way.
There's a lot of different
options that we can take.
And so I do have a life I
want to go back to.
You heard me talk about it.
I have time I want to get
back or time I want to feed forward.
And
If I have that,
then I do need work-life
balance because work isn't
my only life piece anymore.
And so I think that that's a
big piece and takeaway for, you know,
if you're listening to this
and you're on the line
staff or line management line and,
you know,
sector of our profession and you're going,
hmm,
I feel a little bit burnt out or I
feel a little bit antsy
about where I am and versus, you know,
middle managers and above.
If you're a little worried
about this is just ask
yourself a simple question is, you know,
is the work following your people home,
right?
That's probably the number
one question of if
work-life balance is being
breached is does the stress
follow your people home?
And if it does,
you have some major
reworking and thinking to do.
Yeah, well said.
All right, Ben, of course, you know,
the last thing we do on the
episode is called the parting shot.
So that's your chance to be
like prolific or mic drop moment.
You can you can repeat
something that's been said before.
But what would be the idea
or sentiment you'd want to
leave with the audience as
we wrap this one up?
Ten years in the making.
I think the mic drop moment
goes back to one of the
macro points that I only
this weekend kind of shed
light in my own mind about
in terms of like the pulse
and what has happened in
the last ten years.
And it really has to do with
where the progression of
the profession has come and gone.
And I take a look at it and
it hurts me to say it.
And I don't feel like
we have grown up that much.
I feel like we have grown wide.
And that's okay.
You need that to grow.
You have to have a wide root
bread to be able to grow a
strong tall tree.
But that said,
we still need to grow vertically.
I think the takeaway is this,
that often in our profession,
we are too short-sighted or
short-term focused,
despite us wanting to be
long-term focused.
And I think the big mic drop
moment I keep seeing is
whether it's in human
resource management or in
billing and revenue or in advocacy,
even as we tend to fight these battles,
you know,
like quarter by quarter and year by year.
And we really need to start
thinking about fighting
these battles decade by decade.
Because I'm truly concerned
about where our profession is.
Should we still do this ten years from now,
like, twenty years later, right?
Like, twenty-year reunion?
I'm terrified for our
profession that if we don't
have a ten-year battle plan going forward,
that we're going to feel
like we're more in shambles
than we are now.
Because we need to fight for
everything that has to do
with the economic health,
for lack of better terms,
of our profession.
And I think that as a profession,
we're not taught that.
know we're not taught that
in school we're not taught
to care about it in school
and we're typically not
taught to care about it as
a new grad and that uh that
those are formative years
for our professional
identity personally and in
in the large scale of our
profession and so I think
you know the mic drop
moment is my encouragement
to you you know you
listeners here at pt
podcast is make sure you
have a personal and a
professional battle plan
for the next ten years and
a channel that you're
willing to dedicate
yourself to on how to make that happen.
So if you want PTs to be paid more,
you need to fight for
things that advocate
specifically for revenue
line and reimbursement change.
If you have a passion for
PTs to be able to break out
of the clinical mold,
then you need to fight in
that battleground of how do
I make more opportunities
for myself and for our profession,
maybe all of rehab therapy,
to be able to break out of
the clinical mold
and into all these other pie
sectors that we could exist in.
And if something else is
kind of tugging on your heart to do so,
form that ten-year battle plan.
Because I think that all too often,
we only think in like, okay,
how can we just make it
through this next year and
make it through this next year?
Because there is no next
year unless we make it through this year,
which is true.
But there is no long-term
future if we don't think decades ahead.
Yeah, well said.
Ben Fung,
thanks for doing it ten years ago,
and thanks for coming back to do it now,
man.
Much appreciated.
Absolute privilege, pleasure, and honor.
I'm so glad that you're doing this.
When you reached out first,
I was just like, dang,
it has been ten years.
And where can people find
The Pulse if someone's
listening and going, hey, give me that.
How do I get that?
So you can go to updocmedia.com.
That's just U-P-D-O-C media.com.
You can search a little
magnifying glass thing.
Every year, we have a direct URL.
So it'll be updocmedia.com
slash pulse dash the year.
So if you want to take a look at last year,
we're recording this in early...
I guess, spring of twenty five,
you just go to Pulse dash
twenty twenty four.
I'll release a Pulse dash
twenty twenty five soon.
So maybe by the time this
episode is released,
you can just go there
up.com slash Pulse dash
twenty twenty five.
But you'll see it all over the place.
If you just Google job market pulse,
it'll pop up.
Perfect.
Ben, Ben,
thanks again for the time and the
insight.
You bet.
Anytime.