Hello?
Good morning.
All right.
We are back.
PT Breakfast Club, eight thirty a.m.
Eastern.
Jimmy McKay,
Dave Kittle will jump in when
he is available.
Tony Maritato.
So, Jimmy,
let's let's just go right into this post.
I don't know if you have it queued up.
Yeah, Chris Miller.
Chris Miller is a golf performance.
There's Dave.
Golf performance PT down in Florida.
He you know,
I've been following Chris for
a long time.
He's been doing cool stuff
for a long time.
this is a video he created, uh,
showing the inside of his facility,
beautiful facility.
And he shared a program that
he's launching where for a
hundred and ninety nine dollars a month,
you get twenty four seven
access to this golf simulator.
Now, I'm not a golfer,
so I'm going to do my best.
You can play any course.
You get all your stats.
It measures everything.
You know,
it's like a man cave on steroids.
Exactly what we want.
Uh,
what, what was your first,
you shared this with me, you found it.
What were you thinking?
I mean, just brilliant.
Like they,
he understood the life cycle of a golfer.
Golfers are like, um,
Horses are like runners.
We're big, dumb animals.
We'll pay anything to play
golf one more time.
If we can sneak in around in
between tornadoes, you're like,
there's a two-hour window.
We'll sneak it in, right?
So as you can see in the
video that we're showing, it's a gym.
right?
Full like gym, rubber floors, heavy stuff,
you know, kettlebells, whatever.
And then he walks you
through this door and it's Shangri-La.
It is, looks like a double bay, uh,
the bad-ass golf simulators
right off like green carpet
hitting mats the whole night.
So these are the toys
golfers want to play with.
So instead of him just saying,
I've got this gym lift strong,
hit bombs down the middle.
He's like, come play too.
So he, he thinking of a vertical, uh,
He's taking this whole life cycle of like,
what do golfers need?
And then you and I started
playing around with like, well,
what next?
What accessories could we put on it?
We can get into that.
But this is brilliant
because golfers don't just
want to do like
single-legged rotational
explosive exercises.
They want to hit golf balls
and they want the golf
balls not to just be into a net.
You can play Augusta.
on these golf simulators.
You can play like legit
courses and stuff like that.
Again, I'm a crappy golfer,
but my best friend would
drool over this for two
hundred bucks a month.
It's a layup.
Dave, what do you think?
Yeah, I love it.
The only like area that I
would say maybe is like a
ticky tacky suggestion is
the video instead of just
showing like that long
rectangular clinic area,
I would start the video
with the simulator,
then show some of the
clinic space and then come
back to the simulator,
like the clinic space very
briefly and not like a
slower walkthrough.
But again,
that's just such like a ticky
tacky little thing like overall.
You know, clear offer is really important.
It shows it tells exactly
what you get for what dollar amount.
Also in Florida, I love how he says, like,
you know, play, you know, play anytime,
even when it's whatever he said,
like really hot or during
thunderstorms or whatever.
So like those things are he
obviously knows his target
customer and client.
So it's awesome.
You know,
we have a twenty four hour fitness or no,
it's anytime fitness across the street.
There's multiple places like this.
And even when I was in
Sarasota in South Florida,
there were places where you would buy in.
You would buy either an
equity stake or you would
just pay a membership and
you had a key and it was a
twenty four hour access facility.
I've never heard of a
physical therapy clinic
doing something like that.
I think we're so freaked out, risk averse,
so terrified somebody is
going to fall or get hurt.
But we see these proven models.
It got me thinking, I was like,
why wouldn't I make it
available as a premium service?
Hey,
You're going through rehab.
Rehab is a twenty four seven commitment.
This is your full time job.
Here's your key.
Here's your gold card membership.
You have twenty four hour access,
even if you never use it.
Right.
But this is a service that
is sold to allow people to
come into the clinic.
Because they're familiar.
They've done their therapy here.
They know what's going on.
I just I've never seen
another therapist do something like that.
So let's go through the
things that it includes,
as you just mentioned.
So twenty four seven access to the gym.
but also twenty four seven
access to the simulators.
If you know what these
simulators cost and I was
pricing a good one because
this is one of those things
where if you spend like two
thousand dollars, you get crappy.
So it's like don't spend any money.
Don't get it.
You sort of have to hit a tipping point.
And I've talked to a few
people who've done this and
it's not cheap because like
some of these things just don't do it.
So right off the bat for two
hundred dollars a month,
Access to the simulator is
twenty four seven.
You win very first bucket.
Got it done.
Two hundred bucks a month.
I can simulate right then.
Twenty four seven access to the gym.
I don't I don't know what
gym you're paying for in a
major city like this.
That's going to be two
hundred bucks a month.
Yeah, I guess a little bit,
but not with the simulators.
They don't have that.
free tpi assessment and
custom uh custom program
and then he goes into like
a little bit like feel
loose have less pay and hit
more bumps so the tpi
assessment I don't know
what what they charge for
those but those aren't
cheap like because the tpi
certification is number one
expensive to get and then
you have to re-up it every
couple years so you get a
tpi assessment like that'd
be awesome like smart dude
if he was like I'll give
you a free assessment every
year as long as you
maintain membership that
would be another thing I
would add uh play in weekly tournaments
at tour courses.
Like, Hey, this week we're going to all,
cause it's master's week.
We're going to play Augusta.
Like he's gamifying Augusta.
He's already gamifying golf, obviously,
because it's a game.
But he's making people
compete because that's what
golfers like to do.
And there's a perfect setup
with golf called a handicap system.
So even if Tony's way better than me,
I still feel good about
competing because there's a
handicap system.
And then he highlights what Dave did.
It's in Tampa.
Play when it's too hot.
Play when it's muggy.
Play when there's
thunderstorms because
there's a lot of them.
And then he adds access issue,
access to coaches, trainers,
physical therapists,
and a stretch therapy service.
Plus, he goes one extra step.
I think I didn't even read
this the first time.
There's a co-working space.
Where are you, honey?
I'm working.
We know where the deals are done.
They're done on the ninth hole.
One hundred and ninety nine a month.
Cancel any time.
So he's like, if you're risk averse,
I don't know.
Pay two hundred bucks.
Use it for a month and then bail.
I think you're going to like
it so much you come back.
It's not a good idea.
It's a great idea.
It seems like he's stacking
so many things to try to
make this an irresistible offer.
So even the TPI assessment,
like he's going to basically,
him or one of his therapists,
I don't know if he's got therapists,
but they're going to lose
money on that first interaction, right?
So like maybe it's the current,
he's saying this to
Facebook or his email list or whatever.
So maybe there's no customer
acquisition cost.
So he's like offering this
to his followers, his previous patients,
whatever, right?
for that he's trying to make
this an irresistible offer
for someone to say for
someone to do a couple
things one take the credit
card out and take them up
on this offer but then also
more and more it seems like
people are hesitant like
consumers are hesitant to
sign up for subscriptions
like whether it's a jam or
or some you know whether
it's a streaming service or whatever
Cause then it's like, oh,
if I don't use it or if I don't like it,
then I have to like go and
like do a thing.
I have to like go find how
to cancel it or whatever.
So he's saying like easy peasy on how to,
you know, how to cancel, cancel anytime,
month to month.
But you have to sweeten the
offer like this.
You have to make it an irresistible offer.
You have to make it so that
golfers in Tampa read this
and would think like,
that would be like dumb if
I didn't sign up for it.
Right.
He took the bullets out of everybody's...
Well, it's a simulator.
I'm in Tampa.
I come here because I want
to play golf outside.
Why would I come inside?
Dude,
it's hot and muggy and there's
tornadoes and whatever.
And you know you need to do
this other stuff.
You know you do.
So instead of doing this
plus this plus this, dude, it's all in.
He understood the price value seesaw.
He understood it and he
overloaded on price.
He quadrupled down on price.
So then, Tony, you – oh, go ahead, Dave.
I'm curious as to when it's
twenty four seven access,
if there's some digital
scheduler so that I don't
show up at schedule time or
I just pop at any time.
And it's like the old school
batting cages where I got
to wait for Tony to finish.
And then I'm sitting there
and I'm waiting seven
minutes or I'm waiting twenty minutes.
I don't know.
So maybe that's something
that we can ask him.
I don't know.
The other thing is with those simulators,
it's not just one person
like you play around like
Jimmy hits the ball like
you can like the good ones anyway.
It's like Jimmy hits the ball.
A smart one would be like
Dave started on hole one.
Now he's on hole seven.
Jimmy walks in at seven a.m.
I want to jump in and play in.
But like, yes, brilliant.
Like so understand the
friction points and reducing them.
So we're therapists.
Therapists are amazing at
finding problems.
Let's find some of the problems.
What would make this a failure?
What would make this not work?
Because it sounds amazing
with all the stuff that we're saying,
but what are either the
blind spots that maybe
Chris isn't seeing?
What are some of the biggest issues?
I'll tell you the first
thing that came to my mind.
he needs to get the word out
to the right people, right?
Like, how is he going to market this?
How is he going to get the
information out?
That's why I put his stuff
into ChatGPT and I started
to play around with some
sales copy because I'm like, one,
he doesn't have a huge
social media following.
I don't know what his
networking is like there, but I'm just,
I can see this being the
best kept secret in town
and failing because nobody
knows about it.
So is he going to put paid ads behind it?
Is he going to do the direct mail?
Is he going to go out and
get local pros to come in?
Is he going to host events
locally so people see what he's doing?
What is he going to do?
But what other problems is
he maybe not seeing right
now that need to be addressed?
Well, let's do the problem list first.
I mean,
everybody's going to have a problem.
All businesses, if no one knows about it,
it's going to fail.
So let's do the problem,
and then we'll do some solutions.
So that's a big problem that
every business is going to have.
If you don't know about it,
you're the best kept secret in town.
That sucks.
What else can you see, Dave?
I don't think you need to be a golfer.
I actually think if you're not a golfer,
this might be easier to see.
Other problems?
In twelve months, if this failed, why?
I don't know if this,
I doubt this is actually going to fail.
He might have some
projections of like how many people, how,
you know,
how much recurring revenue could
come from this.
And like, to Tony's point,
I think the biggest challenge with that,
like if he thinks it's going to be,
I don't know,
an extra hundred K in
revenue or even fifty K in
revenue or whatever,
if he thinks it's going to be some number,
the,
the way that that's not going to be
hit those,
those targets or those
assumptions is that like Tony said,
not getting enough word out.
So, um,
There might be maybe you
sweeten the offer even more.
Maybe you do like a lower
dollar amount for the first thirty days.
No, Tony's saying no.
I think keep it high.
So feel I mean,
a round of golf is two hundred bucks.
Yeah, I was going to say,
I think what he's going to find,
if he does get the word out,
he's going to find that one
ninety nine is ridiculously low.
I think he's going to need
to go anywhere upwards of
four ninety nine.
I mean, guys,
it's two thousand twenty five.
We're stuck in like twenty years ago.
Price points.
Yeah.
Twenty years ago,
one ninety nine would have
been reasonable.
But go ahead, Dave.
I didn't mean to cut you off.
No, I mean,
it really depends on how well
he knows his folks.
Also,
how close is this to the dollar
amount that he charges for
one-on-one visits?
I think he does some cash services,
and maybe he does Medicare.
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
All right.
He should know his target customer,
his client, his patient.
What do they, like Jimmy said,
I don't know what it is,
but if it's two hundred
dollars a round down there,
whatever it is.
Also, I'm sure he's done this.
he could have asked and
pitched different folks
like hey uh before I even
am buying this ten twenty
thirty thousand dollar golf
simulator I don't know how
much they cost um I think
jimmy put it somewhere or
tony put it somewhere um
asking those folks like is
it something that you'd be
interested in and then if
they are like you could
have even done pre-sales of
the membership before you
even bought it that's also
a huge takeaway for anyone
watching or listening take
the same offer put it on
your facebook page send it
to your patients and
clients and see if folks
are going to sign up for
hundred dollar, two hundred dollar,
three hundred dollar a
month membership as as
founders rates or whatever
you want to call it to get
folks to pay up front and say, you know,
that you're procuring, you know,
different technology or
whatever for the golf simulator.
You know,
you could you could actually
offer this ahead of time.
So, yeah.
Remember the Van West Endort
pricing model questions?
Those are the four questions.
Like these are the questions you actually,
because if you say like, hey,
I'm charging this, is it too much?
Everyone's going to say yes, right?
Because they're thinking I'm your buddy.
If you ever go through with
this or I'm your client,
like so the Van West Endort
pricing model questions are
at what price would you
consider the product to be
so inexpensive?
You would question its quality.
I think if you drop the price right there,
you're thinking it can't be that good.
At what price would you
consider the product to be
a bargain or a great buy for the money?
At what price would you
begin to think the product
is getting expensive,
but you'd still consider buying it?
And at what price would you
consider the product to be
so expensive you would not
consider buying it?
And then you take those four
numbers because they're
ricochet questions.
And then your answer is
somewhere in the middle.
Like, that's the thing.
But I think it's
understanding what a round of golf costs.
And I'm pretty sure it's like two,
especially in Tampa, two hundred plus.
This is one round of golf.
Yeah,
those questions are trying to
triangulate around the
approximate dollar amount.
But at the end of the day, it's like, hey,
are you actually going to
take your credit card out?
Correct.
And put it into a web page, a secure,
you know, checkout,
order form or whatever, and sign up.
That's one.
And then also,
what's the lifetime value of
those clients?
How long are they sticking?
How long do they stay as a
monthly recurring member?
The only discount I might
give is if you sign up for a year.
If you said here's twelve months,
I might give you I would
have no problem being like here.
Sure.
Ten, twenty percent, maybe ten,
twenty percent.
It might be as high as I would go.
So in terms of getting the word out,
paid ads, obviously.
Right.
Geofencing paid ads.
I would talk to the people
that he mentioned in his ad,
which is TPI professionals.
Like he might be a TPI certified PT.
And let's just assume he's not a golf pro.
There's a difference, right?
A PT is not a triathlon coach.
Maybe they might be,
but they might not be.
So use that network.
How do I help you get clients?
How can this thing I just bought feed you?
How do I help you?
I've got this thing.
Hey, by the way, you know what?
I'm having beers on the
ninth hole at my thing.
Let's all get in here pro
professionals from all the local courses.
It's a quick way to get free
rounds of golf too, right?
Those guys are going to let
you come to the golf course, right?
How do I help you?
How do I put brochures for
your golf course or your
golf school in my simulator bay?
Or how do I, hey,
could I get your golf
course on my screen?
Can I play that?
Is that a playable course to get good at?
And you can do that.
Do you have leagues right now?
Great.
When I give a discount,
we can work something out, right?
Buy one of both of ours and
get something like, you know,
the last thing I might move was price.
So that I love people
because people are going to
be their best sellers if
they feel like it's in the best interest,
like an affiliate program.
And then, of course, we've got interviews.
Hey, get in here, golf pro.
Let's do an interview.
Let's record some content.
Let's answer some of the
most common questions.
Put that out on social media.
Yeah.
So I think Jimmy was starting to say this.
Let's take it this direction.
Okay,
so now we've got the person coming in.
We've got the monthly membership.
Where are we going with that?
Where is the next level of
value coming in?
Jimmy mentioned Topgolf.
We have one here locally.
They have amazing food.
I'll go there just for the food.
I don't even care to swing a golf club.
I'll just go hang out, watch my kids play.
Top food.
Yeah.
So like, okay,
maybe he doesn't want to do a hot kitchen,
but what are some things
that he can bring in?
I know here in Ohio there is,
and I looked this up before we started,
BYOB business licenses.
So there's specific laws and rules,
but if you follow them,
you can have customers
bring their own drinks, their own alcohol,
liquor, whatever they want to bring.
What else?
What other services is this
community looking for?
Are either of you like golfers?
Like,
would you consider yourself a golfer?
No.
Okay.
So I am a C minus golfer.
Okay.
but bringing your own beers
or alcohol to the golf
course is a sport because
it's not allowed but the
golf course isn't going to
search your bags but
everybody does it but
nobody does it but then
there's a cart girl right
and it's always a cart girl
I mean I'm sure this cart
guy is not trying to
discriminate there's a cart
girl like drinking and golf
is like they are in
lockstep so I'll be right
back I'm sorry to run you
to alcohol but like alcohol
is a thing alcohol
makes me a better golfer in my mind.
Or if I'm a crappy golfer,
I care about how crappy of a golfer I am.
So yeah, like if there's a social network,
we haven't even touched
upon the fact that when he
said coworking space,
I was sort of joking about
like getting away from the
spouse or whatever.
Um,
Business deals are done in golf.
Business deals can be done
on the digital golf course.
Yeah, in-person, digital,
right on the screen.
This is a thing.
I might suggest he zhuzh up
that gym a little bit.
I feel like his golf base
looked cool with the grass floor,
but I might zhuzh up the
aesthetics of that gym.
Make it feel like it's worth
a thousand dollars a month,
even if you're only
charging them four hundred.
The business aspect of golf
like you could write this
off if you're doing
meetings there because he
said co-work space like you
might want to talk to a tax
attorney but like you might
be able to write some of
this off because it's a
membership to be able to
bring clients in there so
food alcohol and networking
for business is a layup
partnerships with people
who uh feed the ecosystem
and local courses lay up to
me dave I'm good
All right.
So let's take this.
Let's let's pivot just a little bit.
I shared a post about a
company called D-Bat.
And basically these are like super nice,
super high end.
Now we're getting into Dave's world.
Batting cages.
They're all indoor.
You know, I remember you'd get the tokens.
You'd go down to the literal
like chain link outdoor batting cage.
These things are like the
top golf of batting cages.
Yeah.
So, you know,
I look at Chris's situation
and I have no idea.
I'm just I'm guessing my
hunch is he really wanted
this equipment for himself
as much as he wanted it for his business.
Now he's looking at it as like,
how else can I cover the cost of this?
So for other things, you know,
other therapists that are
out there that are like, man,
I've got this hobby.
It's a really expensive hobby,
but I'm super passionate about it.
How do I monetize this hobby
to make a little extra money,
leverage it?
What are some other things
that are out there?
We've got the batting cages.
So Jimmy,
I don't know if you're a hockey player,
but like,
what about something like this for,
I don't play hockey,
never been on skates.
What about hockey?
You know,
like any of these sports or any
recreational activity,
get into a booth for singing.
Like my son loves singing.
He sings constantly.
I bet you could bring something in.
I talked to a speech
language pathologist about
singing and voice coaching
and stuff like that.
Like there are so many
directions you can take.
Any ideas for you guys off
the top of your heads
before we move to the next topic?
synthetic ice is plastic ice
you could have a little
rink somewhere and you work
on shooting like I would
take hockey and break it
down to one is it shooting
is it goaltending is it
skating and then what can I
put into a facility to
specialize in that I've got a buddy
who locally runs a – he's
got a pool business.
They used to install pools.
But now he's moving the
market because the margins
in pools are getting smaller,
and he's doing, like,
bougie hot tubs and
infrared spas for people's homes.
He's got those longer –
they're longer than a hot tub,
and they blow water at you
so you can swim in place.
I've seen that.
So you could have a swim spa,
and they're expensive –
But they're not crazy.
You could own this.
But it's a little on the high end.
So if you don't want to buy
it and I just want access
to it and you had that at your facility,
I would buy in.
Now it's about traffic.
I did a Blueprint business
episode with a PT who's
doing those cryo chambers.
She's doing fire and ice.
She's doing the cryo chamber
and the infrared.
They're a wellness facility.
It's a Trojan horse because she's a PT,
right?
There's nowhere on PT.
It doesn't say PT on the sign at all.
But she's a PT.
So you come in for the bougie wellness.
She does bachelorette
parties and stuff like that.
Come in and have some mimosas.
And, oh,
everybody's cold and we're getting
rejuvenated.
Look, zhuzh up my body, whatever.
And through the back door,
she's sitting there going, I'm a PT.
But PT, I've got eyes on you.
So, I mean,
I love hearing stories like this.
I don't think Chris's idea is good.
I think it's – I mean,
are we franchising this, Chris?
Are we coming upstate New York?
Let's do this thing, bro.
Someone commented pickleball.
Who was that?
Colleen something?
Yeah, Colleen Green.
Like with the simulator?
I don't know.
How could you use – Well,
I don't think – How can you
do pickleball with a simulator?
I think what Tony's saying
is like take the sport and
how can you gamify it, right?
Like –
yeah maybe you're bold maybe
you understand that
pickleball courts are
popping up like they're
tearing down little league
fields and tennis courts
and they're putting
pickleball courts up what
if you at municipal at
municipalities what if you
said screw that I'll buy
some square footage and
I'll create the facility
for it you create the stage
to use tony's singing
analogy and then you get to
come sing and dance on it
for me that's what chris did for golf
Right?
Like, what could you do?
What could you do that?
There's the local rink that
I play old man beer hockey
at twice a week.
They have a shooter tutor.
It's like blaze pods, but with pucks,
right?
The light up and you try to
hit it or whatever.
I've never seen it in use.
It's sitting there behind a locked door.
But it's just they're not marketing it.
They're not they haven't
understood their target
audience because a buddy of
mine's kid plays in a
tournament in a different
time zone like every other weekend.
They are spending not a
little bit of money, a ton of money.
And I know even the fact
that I'm in rural New York,
there are guys that are
NHL-quality guys are trying
to get to the league, even in this area,
in the New York area,
that live around here.
You hire that guy to be your guy, right?
That's your guy.
And then have him run the machine,
and you come up with a deal, a split,
or use rink time.
But it's underutilized, in my opinion.
I think this is a good idea.
one last thing as we're
talking I think the league
setting up a league for the
golf simulator is genius
because you'll have some
percentage of folks
from the league that might
all might sign up for this
monthly recurring
membership so that they can
practice extra on their own
whenever they want perhaps
consider you're in tampa so
sometimes it's hot like
probably now and in the
summer and then it's uh
stormy and rainy or
whatever right you could
also potentially have
leagues like before sunrise
like you know golfers are
crazy I yes we have a
family we have a family
friend who's a cardiologist
he plays a round of golf
in the morning sometimes
before he goes to work and
sees patients for eight to
twelve hours or whatever
he's a maniac you could
have you know you could
have eleven p.m or or
twelve midnight golf
leagues like twilight golf
league because at that time
slot you can't go golf
outside regardless you can
you can they have a
simulator they have golf
things with lights that you
push a button at the tee box and it
Cause they thought of that golf courses.
Don't make any money.
Every, every,
every golf course has lights.
Not every, not every, not every,
but they have glow in the
dark balls that some
courses around here will do
every once in a while,
but they have like stadium lighting.
You push a button and the
whole thing's lit for twenty, you know,
fifteen minutes or however
long it takes to play a whole golf.
It's insane cause they're like, screw it.
We'll just put lights on the
course and some idiot did
it and that idiot laughed
all the way to the bank.
It's not common, but it happens.
So do you guys remember speed golf?
Oh yeah.
You get like a minute,
it's like a stroke per minute.
So you run.
Yeah.
These guys would take their
bare essential clubs.
They would run through the whole course,
you know, there,
there was a time component to it,
but you take something like
that and you're like, well,
what's the biggest pain point for,
for someone like me who is not a golfer,
but would even consider golf.
I can't invest four hours.
I can't invest the time.
I don't,
So if I could go in and just
play three holes and then
go go hit the gym and go to
work or I can do these other things,
you know, of course,
you could have a father, son, father,
daughter, mother, son league.
You can have all these
different variations on it.
But again,
the biggest barrier is nobody
knows about it.
How are people going to find out?
How are people going to
understand the things that
you're offering?
So for Chris, I think you take Tony's idea,
what Tony and Dave probably
would have done already,
which is you invite
everybody that I just
mentioned on the list.
I would invite your best
players from the local in-person courses.
I would invite your TPI golf coaches.
And I would be like, hey, guys,
it's beer and wine.
And let's just whack some balls around.
And then I would video the crap out of it.
This is where you bring in a
videographer that says,
we need a hundred reels out of this.
So bring three people, shoot, shoot, shoot,
edit, edit, edit,
and you get them a movie premiere.
Broadway's great.
On opening night,
when people come out and they're like,
how was Les Miserables?
Oh my God, I was so touched,
and oh my God.
Get that.
Get that a hundred and fifty times.
Who cares if they had a
couple of soda pops on the course?
And let them sell it for you.
Let's do a green carpet event.
Green carpet.
Yes.
Do the green carpet.
Right.
Like come up with like like
we have a keg of beer that
sits on the counter at the
local hockey rink.
Right.
There's four men's leagues, A, B,
C and D. And we get our name,
our stupid team name on the thing.
And every time you walk in
with your wife and yeah,
that's look at we won it six years ago.
what's your, what's your big dumb trophy.
Maybe it's a,
maybe it's a WWE belt that you get to do.
And who's got the, who's got the,
whatever the green carpet belt.
Yeah.
Have fun with it, man.
All right, Dave, we,
we were talking on a thread.
It had something to do with
manual therapy.
I said,
Dave would be in for this conversation.
And I completely forgot Scott's here.
Maybe Scott can remind us if
you don't remember,
what were we going to talk about?
Was that on LinkedIn?
I think it was.
And I don't have access to
my LinkedIn account here.
I got it.
Yeah.
Let us know in the chat.
What were we talking about
related to manual therapy
and some other stuff in the meantime,
while you're doing that, I got in.
Go ahead.
No, I got it.
So you posted on LinkedIn a day ago,
the post that says, when,
so this is Tony's post.
When does Medicare stop
paying for the bike?
A lesson from the total knee journey.
All right.
So it was a long post.
You want to pull it up or do
you want me to review it?
I don't have it.
You can just give me the
highlights and what we were
going to talk about.
Just lost it.
All right.
But Scott had chimed in and commented.
But the post was more about,
is the bike warm up still a
covered service under Medicare?
Tony says no.
And going into,
there's a critical concept here.
An intervention may still be helpful,
but that doesn't make it covered.
Doesn't make it a covered service.
Tony dropped some references in the link.
Guys,
if you're not following Tony Meritato
on LinkedIn,
make sure you connect with him,
Anthony Meritato.
But Scott Embry commented,
and Scott said he was about
to post something similar
from his recent post.
Scott says he finds it
interesting how manual
therapy is reimbursed at a
lower rate than most all
other therapy services,
yet requires the most skill
and training as a PT or OT
to practice at the top of our license.
This would be a great topic
to discuss on the next
episode of Right Now at Breakfast Club.
Yeah.
So, so, and I hear that a lot.
I hear that all the time.
In fact,
when I'm teaching my Medicare course,
the main thing that I
emphasize when we get to
this section is I love to
pull stuff up that shocks
and appalls therapists.
So I go into, you know,
Medicare Mac portal.
I pull up the fee schedule.
I'm like, look, therapeutic activity,
thirty two dollar reimbursement,
therapeutic exercise,
thirty dollar reimbursement,
manual therapy,
twenty five dollar reimbursement.
And I reference I'm like, look,
You know, if I'm a manual therapist,
I'm not doing manual on two
or three patients at a time,
but I bet I could do good
therapeutic exercise for
two or three patients at the same time.
If I'm a pelvic floor therapist,
I'm not doing manual
therapy on three pelvic
floor patients at the same time,
one hand here and one hand there.
So like there are
limitations on manual therapy.
Now,
I'm going to disagree with Scott
because I think there are a
lot of great exercise based
therapists and other
therapists that don't even
need manual therapy at all.
I'm not going to say it
requires the most skill.
It requires some knowledge and some skill.
But I'm also not a great manual therapist.
So maybe it's my bias.
Point being, point being,
the differentiation,
this is a really hard
concept for therapists to grasp,
and I'm pushing the
envelope with this idea a little bit.
There are things that we have invested.
The golf simulator, that's an investment.
That was a financial
investment that was made by Chris Miller.
There are things that we
have invested in that go
way above and beyond what
is covered by Medicare at
the base threshold.
Medicare will pay for
entry-level physical therapy, period.
They don't pay more for
better physical therapy.
They don't pay more for more education.
They don't pay more for better equipment.
This goes to Jimmy's
conversation about the
headset for the vestibular
therapist assessment.
So we went down this rabbit
hole and we were like, Guys,
realistically,
If I was an entry-level
therapist doing entry-level therapy,
that is what Medicare is paying for.
Once I finished that
entry-level plan of care,
anything above and beyond
that really should be self-pay,
should be charged a premium for.
Why would anybody ever want to learn more,
be better,
do better if they couldn't
charge for that?
And Medicare is like, yeah,
if you want to give me a
Rolls Royce for free,
heck yeah,
I'm going to pay for a Honda Civic.
Give me the Rolls Royce.
But we as therapists need to
start identifying where
this extra value is within
the confines of Medicare
reimbursement or any third
party payer contract.
And we need to stop,
stop giving away all of
this insane extra value
that we're not being paid for.
We're not being incentivized for.
I probably went way off the rails on that,
but go ahead, Dave, bring me back in.
so okay a couple things um I
know what you mean by
manual therapy might not be
the most uh top of license
as scott describes it
because you could you you
tony you've given a great
uh rebuttal and example
previously on the show
where you said getting two
or three patients at the
same time or any time to
move more and exercise and
and build that empowerment
and build those healthy
habits and lifestyle
components and changes
arguably could be more
valuable to those people,
to those patients and clients.
That's actually, I think,
the best rebuttal I've ever
heard regarding movement-based therapy,
therapeutic exercise,
why even insurance pays
more for that versus manual therapy.
But then there's other
owners like Mick Aglani.
He had three or four or five locations.
He sold them to Alliance Physical Therapy,
Private Equity.
Even though the manual
therapy code was billed and
paid at a lower rate than
therapeutic exercise,
he would only hire and keep
therapists and train
therapists who were doing hands-on,
some component of hands-on.
Now, they don't have to be doing twenty,
thirty,
forty minutes of manual therapy
per patient.
But there is the argument of
the therapeutic touch and
the therapeutic feel and
building a therapeutic alliance.
Not everyone wants that.
Tony wants hot tub based massage,
but he doesn't want massage on land.
It's a joke between us on the show.
And then you also don't want to deliver it,
or you'll do manual therapy.
You'll do soft touch over the clothes,
whatever.
So everyone does something differently.
But the manual therapy code
is also for like tactile cueing, right?
So like if Tony needs tactile cueing from,
no, it's not, I thought it was.
There's things that fall
within manual therapy.
And if I reference Medicare specifically,
soft tissue mobilization is
specifically listed in the
Medicare guideline.
You know, there's five things,
manual emphatic drainage
being one of them,
but there's five things
that are listed within the
Medicare guideline under
manual therapy CPT code.
So there's some interpretation,
but then there's some objective measure.
So I'm not going to say it's not.
I didn't mean to respond.
Hold on a minute.
Is this something that we
fundamentally still go
around in circles about in
our profession?
Yes, absolutely.
Why is manual therapy
reimbursed so low compared
to other PT services
despite requiring greater skill?
It's that second part that I'm like,
does it?
Scott says yes.
You know what?
I have to take a side here.
Yes, it does.
Here's an example.
There's new grad physical therapist.
I'm not even going to say any names,
but a new grad physical
therapist who let's say
used to be a personal trainer or, or,
you know,
was like a semi bodybuilder or
someone that like exercised a lot.
They graduated physical
therapy school in their
first couple of years,
the first year of school,
first year as a new grad,
first one or two or three
years out of school.
you don't have the manual
therapy skills you don't
understand like you don't
know like how great your
treatment is going to be
necessarily you that takes
that takes months or years
to get feedback from
patients and did I go too
much did I go too soft am I
doing soft tissue treatment am I doing
joint mobilizations am I
doing neurodynamics am I
flossing a nerve what pnf
like what am I doing
someone that's a new grad
or even let's say someone
that's shadowing as a
physical therapy student
they don't even have to
have their dbt license
And they can do the
therapeutic movements and
exercise with two or three
or more patients that
Tony's talking about.
But you can't,
to Scott's point that I now agree with,
I was on the fence.
I have to take Scott's side.
No offense, Tony.
I'm saying I'm against Tony once again,
but...
For manual therapy skills to
actually get people better
or to get – I don't know if
it's necessarily better
because it's kind of subjective,
but it takes more time.
It takes more time to build
manual therapy skills.
If we can agree on that,
then – I don't know if we
can because there's been
studies showing that like –
It doesn't like, I mean,
how many of the studies we
can go to the extreme example,
which is like,
like manual therapy studies,
like I can palpate your psoas.
And it's like, can you though?
Can you though?
Like how much of it is like
a little bit of theater?
Yeah.
How much is that?
Here's the thing.
And real quick, for reference,
if you go to CGS Medicare,
that's my Medicare Mac,
under manual therapy,
there's five things listed I mentioned.
Manual traction, joint mobilization,
myofascial release,
and soft tissue mobilization.
Manual therapy, manual lymphatic drainage.
Okay,
so those are the five things that
Medicare in my area lists
under manual therapy.
But the point in this is,
Medicare,
and we're just using them as an example,
is paying for manual therapy,
manual therapy, not great manual therapy,
not good manual therapy,
not this is manual therapy
that makes you better.
You guys are in a different world.
You're in a different league.
You're talking professional
sports versus third grade little league.
I can go out there.
I can go out there right now
and rub someone's back.
pat them on the back a little bit,
pinch them a little bit,
like flick them a little bit,
and they're going to have
altered sensation.
And I can call that manual therapy.
It's just,
it's one of those things where
I'm not getting paid for the outcome.
I'm not getting paid for how
good or bad it feels.
I'm not getting paid for any of that.
I'm getting paid for the
delivery of what is called
manual therapy.
I don't need special certification.
I don't need any advanced
degrees beyond my licensure.
And this is the disconnect.
So to Scott's point,
you guys are delivering
gold for the price of copper.
I would say it's the price of lead.
Like, seriously,
we are confusing what we want to give,
what we want to deliver,
the experience we want to
provide with what we are
actually getting paid to do.
There is a standard of care.
It goes down to a minimum standard.
That is what Medicare is paying for.
And from the payer's perspective,
I can't I can't send the
therapist's hands home with my patient.
So where is the most value
as a payer to make that
patient stop therapy?
It's exercise, it's functional activity,
because those are the
things that are going to
get them out of there the quickest.
And I, personal opinion,
manual therapy is amazing.
I would never take anything
away from great manual therapists,
but for decades,
it's been used as a bribe
to keep patients in the clinic
to keep them coming,
to keep them utilizing more services.
I'm shocked that payers will
still even pay for manual
therapy just because of the
negative impact on the cost
of therapy services.
People quit manual therapy,
they'll quit therapy quicker.
Scott asks,
what professions can perform
manual therapy?
I quickly got a list.
So I don't,
I don't know if that helps or
hurts this cause.
Like it's house.
I think we're trying to sell
like a skill that you can't,
it's very difficult to measure, right?
Well, but,
but my wife goes and gets a
pedicure and they mobilize
her toe joints and they rub
her feet and they do these things.
So because that person that
rubs her feet has been
doing it for ten years,
she's better than a new
grad physical therapist.
She's better than it.
But is it manual therapy?
Like this is where we go round and round.
I think by definition it is.
It's not a covered service
under Medicare because she
doesn't have the letters after her name.
But that person who does a pedicure,
she is making my wife feel better.
My wife is willing to pay
the price for it.
And, you know, it's a positive experience.
All right.
I have a question for both of you guys.
Have you ever thought of
yourself as the hero in your own story?
I think I used to, when I was a new grad,
I thought I was like, you know,
the best ever.
And then after, yo, I was going to ask,
as we were like, ten minutes ago,
I saw some of this on Facebook.
I saw some of this action
figure stuff on Facebook.
And I was going to ask you guys,
because I saw some of our
colleagues on Facebook
posting this stuff.
And I was going to say,
what is this action figure thing?
I cannot believe you threw this up here.
You guys have to check out YouTube.
Go to PT podcast,
learn Medicare billing or
the Dave Kittle show right
now for this episode.
Stop listening on iTunes or Spotify.
Jump over to YouTube at the
forty minute mark.
So there's always these
trends that go around.
I don't know how they start.
I wish I could figure it out
so I could start one.
But there was the one with the Funko pop.
figurines.
It's like a specific kind of figurine.
That was like six months ago.
Somebody just typed into chat GPT,
make me an action figure.
And then these things started to pop up.
I didn't wear that shirt today.
I wore the, I wore the lavender one,
not the blue one.
So what I've done is I asked chat GP,
what it knows about whoever
I'm going to make the
action figure about.
And then it surprising.
Cause now it can search the web.
It'll find a lot of information.
And then it's like,
give me some photos so I
can get photo realistic.
So I think I found like five
or six photos of Dave and,
That's pretty good.
That's one iteration, right?
I might have sent the
picture of you doing the flex thing.
But what I like about it is
the accessories.
It's like laptop, phone.
There's a pom-pom there
because you're a
cheerleader for other businesses.
Okay.
Jump rope and barbell.
And then, Tony,
what do you think your
accessories would be based
on what chat you've been doing?
Here we go.
I have no idea.
His real estate.
Oh.
Push button to educate.
The knee.
The knee, of course.
How incredible is that?
Look.
And again, look at the shirt.
Look at the logo on the shirt.
Wow.
It is.
Wow.
You have to send me that or
share it or do something.
Tony might get that three-D printed.
I think he actually wants that.
That's the thing.
I was thinking about exactly
that last night.
What's to stop me from making this?
I mean, I have to buy a three-D printer.
I'm going to buy it for
myself for Christmas maybe,
but I've got one too.
It's even got my tagline,
the best conversation happy hour.
Welcome to ours.
Push button to enter interview mode.
I'm going to share these.
Where should I share them?
In our Facebook group, on LinkedIn?
Because what I want people
to do is look at them,
but I want to see what theirs are.
I want to see their version of that.
So you got that from what?
One prompt on ChatGPT,
and I have it connected to Dolly.
Wow.
That blows me away.
Other than that,
have you guys searched
yourselves in any of the AIs?
Yeah, I have, yep.
Yeah.
I get messages all the time
from people that are like, hey,
I was asking ChatGPT or
Gemini or whatever,
and your information came up.
I mean, Jimmy asked the other day,
yesterday maybe,
about SEO and changing
domains and stuff like that.
I still think traditional
SEO is virtually worthless.
I don't think SEO the way it
was even two years ago has
the power that it used to.
But if you guys are
listening and you haven't, go to ChatGPT,
go to Amazon Alexa.
I've asked that one also.
Go to any of these tools
that are out there and say, hey,
what do you know about Anthony Meritato,
the physical therapist in Middletown?
That's how I say it.
That's how I say it to you.
What do you know about?
I'm like, give me some context.
And I'm showing the new
webpage that pod page was
trying to sell me.
And I,
it would take me six months to build
this page.
And Tony knows how much I
just hate websites and updating websites.
So this, this does, this does that.
That's why I was asking, like,
should I just jump ship?
Or is that a bad idea?
And I think what I'm hearing
is just do it.
Cause it's gonna,
it's gonna update
everything automatically.
Has anyone ever seen Jimmy wearing a tie?
I've worn a tie.
Yeah, conferences.
Conferences.
I go out of my way now not
to do that because, I don't know,
I just don't like it.
But I have worn a tie.
When you had the orange suit
on for Fox Rehab,
was that with an orange tie
or was it no tie?
I think it was with an orange tie.
I bought that off of Appa Suits.
Um, that was, that's a throwback.
I'll find that picture.
Steven Dunn.
I'm a manual therapist and
exercise therapist.
Find the combo really helps.
Absolutely.
You know, there's,
I think I was just hung up on like,
does it does,
is that the highest skill or
what was the actual,
who it requires more skill
or greater skill?
And I'm like,
Does it?
I don't know, man.
Like we start to drift off into guruism.
Like my Kung Fu is better
than your Kung Fu.
Uh,
I kind of see both sides of the argument,
but the bad side of manual
therapy would be like
literally someone just gets
their knee or their back
rubbed for way too many
minutes and it's a waste of
time where there's actually no benefit.
It's the McKay method of rubbing.
And if you rub it this way,
that's the thing.
Right.
So I mean,
that's when it's actually maybe
even harmful or hurtful
because it's wasting time
of the therapist and the patient.
I think this is where Adam
Meekins like eats people's lunch.
He's like, you can't prove it.
Yes, we can.
And he's like, show me.
And then he brings the
receipts and people are mad
because Adam says the F-bomb.
It would help Adam to maybe curse less,
but Adam's Adam.
No, it would not help him to curse less.
It wouldn't.
If you actually listen to
what Adam is saying and you
could ignore the bleeps and the F-bombs,
he's like,
you keep arguing this specific
thing that we've all
decided you can't prove, but you're like,
but I feel like it is.
And I'm like, a feeling's not proof.
That's the crux of Adam's
argument with manual therapy.
It's like, you can't prove it.
So let me go back to what we
had started to talk about
just a little bit ago,
because I want to get your
guys' opinion on this.
And the comparisons I had
been making for people who
haven't seen some of the posts.
So we know Biodex has like a
hundred and twenty thousand
dollar isokinetic machine.
We know that there's great
research talking about
isokinetic testing and ACL
return to sport and all
this kind of stuff.
but I don't have that machine.
So I can do an evaluation
for a patient who had an
ACL reconstruction without
the technology.
If I bring the technology in,
I should charge a premium
price beyond what insurance
allows for use of that technology.
Now,
I think most therapists would agree
with that.
They'd be like, okay, that makes sense.
Then we go to the headsets from vestibular,
what is it?
vestibular first.
And I'm like, look,
it's the standard of care
for you guys who are so deep into it.
You can't imagine not using the headset,
but I am a therapist.
I have the licensure.
I can do a horrible
evaluation and still get paid.
It is not the standard of
care to have an invest in the headset.
If I do use the headset,
I should charge for access
to the headset.
You take that three or four
levels deeper and now we're like, OK,
I've got my I don't.
But for therapists who have
their OCS or any specialization,
any extra certification,
you take somebody like Dave
who's invested thousands of dollars,
countless years.
Like,
why would I give that knowledge base
away just because it's in my head?
for what I'm getting paid
for through insurance,
which is the basic standard of care.
The OCS is not the standard of care.
Why wouldn't I deliver a
good enough standard of
care treatment protocol
covered by insurance,
complete that plan of care,
and then if the patient
wants something more,
then they can hire me out
of pocket to deliver the extra value,
the extra education,
the extra training that I went through.
I know it gets dicey,
but what do you guys think
about something like that?
Same person, but two different, you know,
modes of delivery.
Well, there's a couple of questions.
It won't,
it won't work because the person
who's like, Oh,
do you take my insurance and all that?
They just think everything
comes with that.
They're, they're, they're not,
they're assuming Tony most, in my opinion,
I would love to hear what
you think about your patients,
but like people in the,
I don't know where I'm New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, New York area, um,
like if they're looking to
use their insurance their
in-network their medicare
whatever they just assume
like oh I get all that I I
would get all that I get I
get at least the the
licensed professional who
has the minimum standard of
care but then I also get
like you know the hands-on
and I get like if I want
more hands-on I could kind
of say hey can I get some
more hands-on work and whatever so
and someone else is paying for it, yeah,
I don't think that's possible.
Especially,
it's definitely not possible
with the same professional.
If anything,
it's I go to some office for
the in-network cover, whatever,
and then if I want extra,
I have to either go to a
different professional in
the building or some other building.
I don't think it's even
possible to have the same person say,
I'll do X, Y, Z,
this defined thing for your insurance,
but your insurance doesn't
pay for this other stuff.
So if you want this other stuff,
it's this dollar amount.
yeah uh that I mean when
someone put it this way in
pt school I was like even I
as a consumer of healthcare
and then coming to
healthcare as a second
career once they said it
like this please don't
confuse health insurance
with health care you pay
you pay for health
insurance now that doesn't
mean it covers everything
like that's the funny part
too is like this would
never maybe it's a good
comparison when I have a
warranty on my car I know
it covers lots of stuff
but not a flat tire, right?
Flat tire is like sort of, it's on you,
bro.
Like, hey man, sorry.
But like if your transmission drops out,
five thousand miles down the road,
we got that because it's within warranty.
As long as you didn't violate the warranty,
right?
So when someone framed it that way,
I sort of understood it a
little bit better.
Now let's get into the
nuance because I think that
little thread on LinkedIn
was was good because it
played out a lot of the
things so we'll take
something like the
vestibular first goggles
right so high level used to
work for them right they're
great right they're
fantastic this thing should
be and I think will in five
years be the gold standard
if you're working in
vestibular care you need to
put people's eyes in the
dark to see the things that
you need to see they're
stethoscopes for your eyes
if you have a vestibular
issue but you can't charge
for it there's no code for it so
If I were sending someone
that I knew to a vestibular therapist,
now that I know that
because I never practiced it, I would say,
do they use goggles, yes or no?
To me, it is a red or green flag.
You're winging it or you're using it.
But should they charge extra for it?
Well,
they had to drop twenty five hundred
bucks for the goggles.
So like in my mind, yes.
Well,
then should I charge extra for
post-it notes?
Well, you understand how business works,
right?
Like you need to make money
on the thing that you bought.
The doctor isn't charging
you every time he uses a stethoscope,
but it's built into the cost, right?
Like that's the way I look at it.
So should it be a line item
or should it just be
covered under overhead?
Like the doctor also needed
a treatment chair and a
plant in the corner and a clipboard.
But they don't charge you
every time they use the clipboard,
but he needed it to write
his note on or back in the day.
Now we're not using kids
clipboards or what we used to write.
No.
So you use the EHR.
Do you charge for it?
Yes.
But it's not a line item.
Like that's where I think I
get it because it touches the patient.
Are we charging for it?
Yes, but no.
But should we?
I don't know.
So if you look at the
definitions of certain CPT
codes and what is covered,
what is not covered,
we look at something like a
passive modality, like an E-STEM.
Okay.
The supplies required for
electric stimulation are
covered within the
definition of the CPT code.
So I can't separately charge
a patient for those pads.
That is covered in the reimbursement.
But, you know, we look at, okay, balance.
We look at slip and trip.
We look at, you know,
a gait belt is enough
equipment for me to take a
patient who's been falling,
give them a jostle,
give them a little shove.
I can treat them and work
and build gait training or
neuro rehab or whatever the
code I'm going to use for that is.
I don't have to have a
thirty thousand dollar
biodex reactive step trainer.
You know, that is something separate.
Now,
the easy solution to this is what we
did was we just said, OK, well,
when you're on the biodex,
you're independent.
It's not part of your therapy program.
You pay a separate fee.
It's one hundred or five
hundred dollars a month.
You're not going to be
working with a therapist.
It's not part of your
covered plan of care.
But I do think we need to get into, well,
even within a visit.
Am I going to allow my
patients to spend more for
a premium anything, you know?
So, okay, we have a broken,
literally broken recumbent
bike that has a manual
timer because the electric
timer on the bike doesn't even work,
but the patients who are
using it don't need anything fancy.
They just need to move their legs.
So it's like, well,
I can throw that in for the
price of the CPT code.
But if somebody wants to use
a five thousand dollar recumbent bike,
you know,
the broken one cost me fifty bucks.
Shouldn't I have the
capacity to allow them to
pay a premium rate for
access to premium equipment,
premium knowledge,
premium services that
aren't specifically covered
within the CPT code?
I think we should,
but I think we need to test
that model a little bit and
figure it out.
I think this comes from our
internal desire to just
give and give it like we buy into the,
everything should be free model too.
And the insurance companies
just sit there and laugh
because they're like,
they're going to give it away anyway,
probably.
And they're going to expect it.
And there,
there they are with the bleeding heart.
I can help this person.
Right.
And so when you start running it like that,
not a business, then you can,
then six months later,
you get mad because you're
not being paid for your skill,
for all the things that you did.
Cause you're not asking for it.
And I think it goes back to
twenty years ago.
We were competing for patients.
We're not competing for patients anymore.
There's more patients than
therapists could ever treat.
Like nobody is struggling
for new patients unless you
just are brand new into the
profession and you don't
have your marketing down.
So there's more than a
surplus of patients out there.
We're not competing anymore,
but we're stuck in the mindset of, well,
I need to do more than the
clinic down the street.
The objection I get every
single time about manual therapy,
when I say, look, okay,
manual therapy is probably
a covered service for one
or two sessions.
Beyond that,
it's not covered anymore based
on Medicare guidelines.
Well, Tony,
the clinic next door is going
to keep doing manual
therapy and patients are
going to go there.
No, they're not.
Because the clinic who's
doing manual therapy has
got a six week wait list.
They're not going to go there.
And if the patient
absolutely wants to go there,
they're not the right
patient for me anyway.
But point being,
just like we opened the show,
one hundred and ninety nine
dollars a month was a
premium rate back in, you know,
early two thousands.
Yeah.
We are not competing for patience anymore.
We don't have to over
deliver on value like we
used to to try and attract
them away from where they're going.
They're going to come to us
no matter what.
The question is,
now we're running an economy airline.
We have to charge for the pretzels.
We can't just give the
pretzels away for free.
Do we have to though?
And I couldn't find the video,
but there was that video
that I shared amongst us
with the guy who was
talking about the thousand dollar steak.
No, we don't, we don't, I want,
I want to get into that,
but we only have four minutes left.
So I don't want to,
I think next time I love that video.
We, I have so,
I want to talk about that a
lot more than four minutes.
So we can tease it,
which is I think the reason
that this conversation
needs to be longer is we
assume everybody wants to
pay as little as possible
instead of assuming people
want to get as much as possible.
And there's a Van Westendorp price model,
right?
There's a triangulation of those things.
And if you are not selling
or if you are not offering
a thousand dollar steak
worth of value on the menu...
no one's going to just give
you a thousand dollars.
Like they're not,
but they could if you can
provide this much value.
You don't have to because
Arby's is down the street
and it's a very good model.
It's still around.
I actually learned it's
called Arby's because they
sell roast beef sandwich, Arby's.
I didn't know that.
I was like, oh my God,
it makes perfect sense.
But I think it is a good
conversation to have
because I think the question is,
Tony does this.
Dave does this.
You have to ask yourself pretty frequently,
what business am I actually in?
Because if I'm a billing
service who provides
service to an insurance
company by way of their patients,
different business.
If I'm a concierge provider
in New York City, different business.
Same license though, right?
Same umbrella term that we'd
say physical therapist.
Vastly different, which is great.
All right, that's Jimmy's parting shot.
Dave, what do you got?
Parting shot going back to
the action figure.
Parting shot going back.
I like how we deconstructed
the Chris Miller offer.
A lot of it is very clear.
It shows exactly what you get,
what do you get for what dollar amount,
plus the video.
So overall, I think it was a great offer.
very clear and you have to
be clear for consumers to
even understand it also the
side benefit that golfers
see that and they're like
well you're not talking
about pain you're not
talking about insurance
you're not talking about a
covered service whatever so
no one's going to say does
my insurance cover this you
know like it's obviously
clear to the consumer this
is something that's out of
pocket and they're gonna
they either wheel or
whatnot pull out their
credit card to sign up for
that membership
All right, guys,
I think today was a great show.
And I think the reason why
it was so great was because
you guys were bringing
ideas and messages to us
that we could discuss.
Scott brought some great content.
Chris Miller, whether he meant to or not,
gave us some great ideas.
Next week or Thursday, whenever,
next visit, next show,
I want to talk about Chuck.
Charles Lockwood put out a
video about a four thousand
plus dollar walker.
That is just awesome.
It's blowing up.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
He got a demo unit.
He showed how it works.
This is the foundation of
what things are to come for him.
You guys bring us ideas.
We will dissect them, break them down,
disagree, agree.
Just keep bringing it.
Eight thirty a.m.
on Eastern Time, Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Jimmy McKay, Dave Kittle, Tony Maritato.
We'll see you guys on the next episode.
Thank you.