It isn't like we've gotta become some sophisticated
bunch of people, you know, the really sophisticated
people. We don't.
That's what prayer has been so much more
than ever before because it's about being transformed
much just learning and connected.
Hey. Welcome again to the podcast and really
great to have you here. I'm
recording in a place that I've never actually
tried the recording of podcast We're sitting around
a campfire fire on the West
side of Canberra.
We've just been up at Mount Corey, praying
over city of canberra. And I'm with Brian
and class, and just had a a few
wonderful days together as we've been doing some
prayer walking,
engaging in the harvest.
We've been
doing some training and prayer air together for
the city. It's been awesome.
Just a wonderful time. And I just thought
I'd capture the moment and capture the time
with Brian and class.
And to see
what god has been pouring into them that
it might be an encouragement to us as
we
try and do Dm all over the place
in Australia and throughout the world, wherever you're
listening. So I trust this as a blessing
to you.
Welcome. Any background noise here is either the
fire crackling or the wind blowing in the
trees and
camp that as just ambient
atmosphere. As we're together. So welcome, Brian.
Good to have you to the podcast. Oh,
it's great to be here. And great Da.
You. Brian.
You you've been on the journey for some
time, and now you're... You're really in the...
I would call it the birthing stage of
cat
work here in canberra.
What has been the highlight
of the last
couple of months of learning? What has god
being really emphasizing to you while you've been
here in canberra?
Okay. Well, you know, I first started to
become aware of
sample multiplication in 2013
and so we're are 11 years on from
that. And
I I would say that if if there
was a graph that showed my
engagement with the process,
you know, that took a long time, much
longer than I I thought. And And I'm
a by nature, you know, I grab hold
of something even before I understand it and
run doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Run out the door
in the snow. So,
So but but I didn't realize how
how
how how much had to be transformed in
my thinking and in my acting because otherwise,
I was just... I tried to implement a
method. Mh. And the method didn't work. You
know, it wasn't the method it was actually
the the heart attitude, the
perspective and all those other things. So I'd
say,
you know, that,
over the years,
with,
I was passing a church in Canberra, and
and I was keen... Yeah, We started all
this way talking about building Monday's church, which
was, you know, building church where you are.
So
so
that that went on and on, and the
commitment to Evangelist and we're still strong.
But it wasn't
multiplying evan. It was... We never thought of
about multiplying. We always just thought about
leading somebody to Christ and ba baptized
joining for the church, And I would say,
a couple of things have happened in the
last couple of years. 1 is that claus
came back to Canberra, and,
and we've worked together
in all of this, and I think that's
been really formative in my own mind.
The other thing is that we that we've
become much more
understanding of the way
discovery
works
in multiplication. So To help somebody to discover
something is helping them to multiply something. And
I I'd I I just I just feel
a great sense of shame in 1 way
that I spent all my time preparing Sermon
and all these other things. And while those
things have
I kind of value.
They don't they don't have any
capacity in reality to multiply. I mean, they
don't have any. So I think of a
bloke who's spent 50 years preparing Sermon and
honestly
pastor people and so forth. And still having
a heart for evan, Mh. But not
not multiplication and not... That's why, you know,
I hear stories about multiplication.
It just first blew my mind.
And then when I started to commit to
it, it was
it was much more difficult than I thought,
not... Yep. And so and so I can
remember the first time I said to somebody
who just become a disciple,
don't come to church.
We wanna do church in your house. Right
And, Like, I cannot tell you how
that was, like this huge
water share,
because I've spent 50 years telling people to
come to do it. Yeah. And so those
are the kind of things that have changed.
And so we've
not only had much more confidence about that,
but it's actually become part of us. And
so I think I definitely
misunderstood
what it would take to traverse
the
transition of thinking and and heart space and
so forth about this. And so that's why
prayer has been so much more important
than ever before because it's about being transformed,
not just learning something
that's a new a new slick method.
Yeah. Fantastic. And I'm just staying with you,
Brian.
We're here in canberra.
And not only are you
transitioning from
what we would describe as a legacy or
traditional church?
Into a movement think in a movement spear
head that's going on. But you're also doing
it in an environment that's incredibly
sophisticated.
Canberra
has some of the highest levels of education
in our nation,
has the
as of very, quite quite progressive
environment,
and it's been the political capital, and,
And so engaging
in this culture,
really is at the cutting edge of, as
we engage with the question, how do we
reach the west?
And here
is a is a is a is a
con collaboration of all the thinking patterns that
are happening in the west or that transitional
thinking
turning away from the traditional beliefs in God.
Turning into,
a whole bunch of stuff that's going on,
how
how are you engaging? How does Dm engage
in that environment
that you're finding. Yeah. Okay. And and,
You know, that's why,
you know,
I would have... If I was having this
conversation 10 years ago, I would've have said
Canberra is a really hard place.
But I I don't I don't I don't
believe that anymore not because we've seen thousands
of people
multiplying disciples.
But because,
I know
that we...
If you start with the idea that the
harvest is plentiful. Mh Right? And and and
that if we pray, God will raise up
workers for the harvest. It's not just numbers
of people who are,
you know, joining a crew. It's actually
harvest workers, not just workers, harvest workers that
who have harvest in their heart and know
that that god has a way of doing
this. And and it isn't it isn't like
we've gotta become some sophisticated bunch of people
in order to reach sophisticated people. We don't.
There is a heart change inside, that means
that when you're with somebody regardless to who
they are,
the... It's just it just bringing the kingdom
to them. And so knowing what to saying
what to do in this context,
knowing which stories to tell and all other
things. It's still the same, but it's just
a different a different
like bunch of stories, a different kind of
approach, which is culturally
connected. And so, you know, I think people
have found around the world that different story
groups work better and so forth. And so
I reckon in our little bit of experience.
We've seen
different kind of ways of doing the story
thing, but it's still the story thing. Yeah.
And it's still discovery. Yeah. And it's still
holy spirit. Yeah. And it's still us having
something inside that we're offering with the nut...
With the knowledge that this this will give
somebody an opportunity to connect with Jesus. And
so I reckon it's all... That's why prayer
is so important and obedience is so important
because because we think we're too smart.
To just believe what Jesus said about going
and doing it. And I think that's it's
it's not coming down. It's actually smart up,
but it's smart up with a sense of
what it is that's inside of the heart
of God. And what is going on with
the person that we're hanging out with. Mh.
So good. And
just to,
enforce, we've been we've been engaging, and we
we we pre walked and we've we've talked
to people,
and
and just like a typical western environment, the
nations live in canberra. So we've talked to
Indian. And Fiji in the area that you're
reaching is full of Nepal.
And and and just jumping into that context
being trans spirit in faith having
upfront relational
conversations quickly moves us into that Suite. I'll
be really encouraged
as we've just seen, you know, Emma,
Fiji who who we've engaged with, who's just
out from Fiji and
And suddenly, suddenly, we're possibly seeing a discovery
group starting in Emma's house. And
and we're our our our brother from
from India who served us coffee the other
day. And his open openness to talk about
the bible and spiritual things and, yeah, fantastic.
1 thing I've I've really
enjoyed hanging with you is the the the
fundamental
elements that I see in movements of prayer,
of engagement in the harvest of a
disciple making through discovery and multiplication is all
running through what you're doing.
Class, some
before we jump into some of the stuff
about team and prayer and harvest. What what
grabs your heart, The most, what's what sings
in your spirit when you think of Dm?
What what do you love about it?
I love the simplicity of it. And how
anyone can actually grab hold of it, which
brings us to the multi
nature of of it, and it can be
come a move. Just the simplicity of, of,
the approach.
And
even even thinking about
you refer to camera being in a very
sophisticated place and educational levels and everything else.
But when we think about how Jesus approached
everybody.
And if we do think that he
he he was the smartest, wisest,
most intelligent person to to walk on Earth
ever.
He chose to use stories, and he chose
to approach people
at a heart level
as much as engaging their mind through the
stories as well. And so so the simplicity
of this
is just beautiful,
because it brings us back to our dependence
on God. Mh not our own
level of this or that inability of this
or that, lack of that or or abundance
of that, but but rather the abundance of
of the word of God, everything centering around
that, and the abundance of the holy spirit
inside of us empowering us
and allowing us to capture the heart of
god and sense,
his desire to reach the lost people and
the broken broken us in the world and
and affect that
through his word and through his spirit.
Yeah. Awesome.
For the listener who's listening, you know, we've
been not only prayer walking,
engaging in the harvest, but we're meeting with
team.
And in the nights, we've been doing some
training and prayer or just stop sharing really,
some stories from the from from the
frontiers and also, you know, just training. You
guys have also been going through
Jim Brits book, and
that's been really great and we're... We've just
done 3 podcast podcasts with Jim.
What have you picked up from Jim and
how how is that applying in your context?
Well, like, O'brien said the biggest challenge is,
the challenging inside of us and and
so there's is saying in in in the
movement world that I hear often, you gotta
go slow to be able to go far.
And so to have a have a big
impact, you gotta go slower and I reckon
part of the reason.
Why we have to go slow is because
there are so many mind shift so so
much
has to do with renewing our mind.
And grabbing hold of actual truth
that we
haven't big been aware of because we've interpreted
the word through the lenses that we use
and the grids that we use.
And and so the renewing of the mind
is a is a huge aspect of this
and
Jim Brits, the the book
presents us with 4 simple habits that we
can grab hold of. And they they help
us with with the renewing of the mind,
but also
just, a great,
gateway
into into some of this some of the
simple tools that we do need to use,
which is
you know, prayer is the first thing. Mh.
So our prayer life changes as we realize
that the challenge is great.
And our prayer life changes because we become
aware that we need to be transformed,
and there's our process going inside of us
and And so we pray for ourselves about
the challenges and about the the things that,
the revelation that we We get from heaven,
and and we pray about that. We pray
for the lost people. We pray for workers
for the harvest.
And we do that together as a community.
Yeah. And so we learn to actually pray
not just in our closets, but we learn
to pray together.
And and the corporate power and the dynamics
that come into play, when we do that.
And and then the second habit,
has to do with,
engaging
the lost people and Mh. And having discussions
with them that go beyond the
how you're going and the weather and the
sporting teams and so on and and getting
into meaningful
conversations about their life and what is actually
happening in their life and and and becoming
a good listener. Yeah. Through that. Yeah. Finding
out about people and seeing where how... What
kind of bridges that then might present in
terms of
know, bringing Jesus in into the into the
conversation and and the good news
that we haven't and and and so getting
into spiritual conversation. And then the third habit
has to do with with discovery and and
and the whole idea of of, discovering the
word and anybody can do it and and
how do how to
empower others
to then
immediately
get other people on the discovery journey as
well,
as they're getting started themselves. Yeah. So
what it has done is it's
It's made the conversations that we have or
with each other,
as disciple making communities,
real, genuine,
authentic,
honest,
vulnerable,
and we're talking about what is happening inside
of us, rather than just about principles and
truths and and external lies things which easily
takes up all our time. So now it's
about the internal thing that, the holy spirit
is is working on. In my life.
Positioning us for for
just that that movement that it's gotta be
in us to multiply from us. Yes. And
the idea of not expecting someone to else
to do something that we are not doing
ourselves. Which is hearing God, a obeying god
praying
and sharing with others. And that's gotta be
in in all our lives and
Yeah. 1 thing I really noticed about,
the the time that I've had here is
the idea of team.
And you guys are of you've got pray.
You've got going. You've got d cycling through
Dbs and forming groups and and
multiplication,
or being woven into that, Dna,
but your building team.
And what's unique probably about this situation is
your building team out of a church congregation,
which is I think are somewhat challenging at
times.
And you... Because you're dealing with people at
all different levels and places and you're going
slow enough. How is how is that going
for you in team building?
Well, it is true. The teams have... So
what what we did was we switched from
just gathering
everybody in a hole.
To gathering in homes. And so the group
size
is is different and that allows for a
different kind depth in terms of relationships and
learning to love 1 another and And the
kind of conversations and caters towards
And so these
groups,
these churches are gather homes
have now become the teams that are actually
in the process of of
becoming
workers in the harvest or already working in
the harvest. Then it it allows people who
are
who further
down the track to encourage and and support
those who are just getting on the track
and at different stages
on this journey.
And that's team essentially isn't it. We're all
heading in the same direction We're Mh all
encouraging 1 another and supporting 1 another and
cheering 1 another along and and learning and
discovering things,
as we go and
and and celebrating the moments where somebody has
not just revelation, but where they're actually put
into practice what was revealed to them and
that they p in their own lives. And
so, yeah, we're we're seeing those kinds of
teams happen, and and I I have to
say that,
I haven't had this much joy
Yeah. In a church
ever
before as I am having right now. Wow.
And and and the
the the heart is just filled with with
celebration and and
and and wonder.
At what God is doing.
Yeah. That's that's awesome.
Brian, just coming to you.
We've got this wonderful thing happening.
As you looking forward,
what do you think?
Are some of the challenges
ahead. What do you think are some of
the things like you're you're looking at it,
you're saying, look, we're getting this, but I
think we need to get to this place.
What would you identify is because we all
at a certain place, but we're all to
grow. We've got a change? And we've gotta
keep changing
and growing. What are some of the changes
in growth as you
forecast in your mind. Next couple of years
you've got some wonderful stuff happening here in
Canberra. Yeah. What what do you think?
Look, I think
it comes down to
multiplication happening at every
in every part of the operation. So
you can multiply disciples and so forth. And,
that that can
that can happen.
But it can easily fall away. And I
think
what I've learned and what I've seen from
other movements and so forth is that we're
gonna need to multiply what I would call,
apostolic hubs or cat hubs. Yeah. You know,
and not just all over Australia, but all
over Canberra. So. We're gonna need... And by
apostolic, like I don't mean, you know, Capital
A and
getting money from everything everybody. Like, hierarchy or
leadership No. Not how matter. Not even not
even closed. Not even... It is actually the
totally opposite of hierarchical. It's actually Yeah. Apostolic
leadership giving
support and direction and, you know, and and
vision and
casting vision and so forth And. And I
think our experience would show that everything that
is prosper is prosper
because of some form of apostolic
input. Like, you know? Now we get Apostolic
I can put from the scriptures itself, of
course, we do. And and if you notice
what Paul says, in ephesians says, that the,
that the church is built on the foundations
of what's and prophets with Jesus being the
cornerstone. So Yeah. So the the... The apostolic
leadership will be Jesus connecting leadership. It'll be
Jesus vision clarifying
leadership. It'll be jesus empowering leadership. It'll be
this kind of leadership. So at the moment
that looks anything
not the same as Jesus and the apostolic
church, then let's get rid of it, you
know, because,
because there's all kinds of things that happen
along the way. And and and and genuine
leadership is
is
multiplied through
leaders multiple multiply leaders
and cat leaders multiply cat. And we know
that movements multiple multiply movement. So what is
that? That it's just actually that the the
apostolic leadership, the vision, the faith and so
forth broke out of the boundaries of anything
that they
we're involved in and saw beyond and saw
beyond. And says he's like Paul he writes
Jerome. You know, he's never been to Rome,
but he's riding to Rome and says, Hey,
listen.
I'm gonna gonna call in there because I'm
on my way to Spain
because Spain hasn't heard the gospel yet. So...
And and I think, you know, the guys
that have just come back from Nairobi from
the catalyst camp there. You know, Are talking
about the fact that here our guys, here
are leaders who've seen
movements, you know, happening
multiple movements, but they're not thinking about what
they've got. They're only thinking about what is
yet to be done. And so I think
that's the key now, now, some people need
to have that inside of them, so they
can look at what's going on and help
to guide an importance over forth. So multiplying
that cat
our leadership pubs. Here. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree
with that because you know, as we see,
we need people to belong somewhere in teams
and to be sent out from somewhere. We
need multiplying hubs
and or disc cycling communities. Our, communities filled
with disciples that's focused
on loss
and multiplying discovery bible studies and We see
that clearly in the new testament that we
with paul, planting hubs that multiplied and in
saturated
regions and and and
it's it's kind of... It's different to what
we see when we look at,
traditional structure of church with some 1 person
in charge, or, you know, it's actually a
it it
involves the values of of of everybody's a,
everybody gets to contribute. And yeah. Wonderful.
Wonderful of us see the multiply hub,
developing here in canberra. And so those hubs
will start with
people who have that inside of them and
need to be encouraged. You know? So so
I think the idea is that those people
need to be identified and encouraged and Yeah.
And because because if you if you talk
to somebody,
very often, they've They do have something of
the
multiplying vision, but they... You know, like, like
all things, you start to open your eyes
and suddenly you see things you've never seen
before. And that's why the people who are
on this journey
need to be looking out for the for
the people who are potential
hub, you know, coordinators or catalysts all whatever
of you wanna call it? That's right.
So it's just been wonderful.
To be here in canberra to see a
multiplying hub developing to see
a
congregation, a gathering of people
getting the heads around pray, go, disciple,
multiply.
Engagement in the harvest deliberately
intentional
spiritual conversations,
looking for people of peace starting discovery bible
studies. My heart sinks,
as I come into this city,
and,
you know, the listener might know not know.
But I've come into Canberra before. I grew
up in this city. And I've prayed, and
I said, where where could it be lord?
How could it be started? And here we
are. We're seeing this multiplying home. I love
being on team with you guys.
It's awesome. And that's how I feel. I
feel like I'm a team with you. We're
together
as a wonderful. And I'm looking forward to
the journey ahead
in conclusion, Brian,
how would you like to encourage the listener
as as they're looking at their world and
their contact in all kinds of variety of
places
and things that they're facing. What would you
like to say?
Okay. There's a couple of things I'd like
to say if I can do it very
quickly. 1 is that that that prayer needs
to evolve, not not just the amount of
time you pray, but the way you pray
because prayer needs to be a journey
from
not having something to getting something,
not seeing something to seeing something. And when
you see it, you need prayer to implement
it, So prayer needs to... Everything needs to
come from prayer. And what I'm saying is
everything needs to come from heaven. Yeah. If
it comes from the earth, no matter how
whether the harvard business review, the likes that
or not,
it isn't gonna be a value to us.
And and we've seen every time there's been
some kind of pioneering Christian movement. It's always
been sponsored by prayer and the word. Yeah.
And the spirit. So, you know, so that's
why I think
let let prayer evolve. Don't just sit yourself
in a room and just pray the same
oil prayer, you know, pray the edges. Just
what's going on at the edge. Pray for
that pray for what we need at the
edge and pray for what needs to happen
at the edge. And keep on praying for
that until you get what to do how
to do it and everything else And secondly,
never never leave
the word out of it. Yeah. It it...
It's gonna come from the word.
And this is very hard for us. We
like fashion. We like, you know to move
for the next thing and next thing. But
this word keeps on stirring because this word
from heaven is a person.
And when we relate to the word, we
get the opportunity of relating to the person,
the presence of the person, the heart of
the person
and that word will lead us there. And
that word will open our eyes. And that
word will give us power and strength. That
word will tell us how to get on
with each other. Know, so that we can
get the job done. So, Yeah. Prayer and
the word and the obedience flows from that.
That is the deal. Yes. Right. Nothing more,
nothing less.
Amen. So class pray for us as we
finish.
Heavenly many father, we recognize that
Care much more about the creation, the people
that you have made than we do.
And we just wanna
get a sense of your love and compassion
towards
every person
that are living
amongst this generation.
And we know that it is your holy
spirit that works in us, so we pray
and ask
for your spirit to stir our hearts to
open our eyes,
to see things the way you see them
to receive
revelation and truth from heaven from your word,
to hear your voice to be moved by
you, and and for our ears to be
open to to hear the stories of people
in and where they're at and and to
hear what you want to say to them
and how you want to, reach out to
them and touch their lives and transform them
as much as you wanna transform us. So
once again, we just keep ourselves to you.
We thank you for your faithfulness for your
grace for your mercy for your goodness in
our lives, but we want that to be
experienced by everyone. And so we we'll just
give ourselves to you,
and we thank you for your impacting us
and for your desire to reach every person
amen.