So,
with that somber
beginning to this episode
of the new media show,
is really a remembrance
of our longtime friend, Todd Cochran,
who,
has been really the lead of the show,
this this new media show and the lead
of his company,
Blueberry. And in a lot of ways, you
know, along with Adam have been
a significant
leaders in the podcast
medium and the phenomenon that has happened over
many, many years, and I've been lucky enough
to be
a companion of his over that long
twenty year plus journey here. And,
and it's not a real happy time.
I'm I've been very
overwhelmed by
the by the response
of
the community overall
and
all of the nice things that people have
had to say about Todd.
And I've actually you know, it's been very,
very
touching to me.
You know, I didn't really realize how close
I had gotten to to Todd, really. And
I guess if you
you know, men don't typically do that quite
as much,
I I think is the conventional thinking. But,
but I wanted to pull together this
remembrance,
last episode of the of the new media
show. I haven't a 100% decided if I
will keep the show alive or not, but,
my thinking is at this point, at least
a a break here of sorts to to
remember Todd. And I'm lucky enough to have
a couple of great or three great,
people that were willing to come on the
show and help me do this last show.
It is not the easiest thing, you know,
for me to do,
as,
Rob Walsh,
from Lipson, who I know has been a
very long time friend of Todd's. And
and he and I have,
you know, Rob, I you know, the two
Robs and and Todd have spent a lot
of time together.
And we've done a lot of events together,
and we've done a lot of things together.
And I know
Adam Curry,
who's also able to to join us here.
You know,
really, I think the core reason that Todd
actually
got involved in podcasting was was because of
you, Adam, and
your daily source code, that was the thing
that, you know, opened his eyes to
what was possible with podcasting.
And so I I I thought it was
very
poignant
to have you here
on this episode too because, you know, it's
like a full circle moment.
And then mister Mike Dell,
who has been at Todd's side for many,
many years,
in in helping him and being a friend
of his
since your very early days of podcasting and
helped him, helped Todd really build the the
platform
that Blueberry is today, and and I appreciate
him being here as well. You know, I've
known all three of these guys
the whole time that this podcasting medium has
existed, and and we've all been,
good friends, and we've talked about,
podcasting a lot.
So I wanted to start just with Rob
here. And, you
know, if you could
share some thoughts that you have on
on Todd. And,
you know,
what are the big important takeaways that you
have,
as you look at Todd's life and
Todd's overall,
you know, significance in the podcasting space?
I'm fortunate enough to have known Todd twenty
plus years.
So excuse me if I lose my voice
here a little bit.
I interviewed him. He was one of the
first 20 plus people I interviewed on podcast
wrong one back in March 2005.
I asked him at that time what was
the first podcast he listened to. And Adam,
it was the daily source code, and it
was the one he was at that time,
and it was listened to still.
And then,
you know, just take a little history.
Went to Gnomedex
that year.
Rob, that's where I met you. Yep.
John Wall and Todd and me,
all four of us went out to dinner.
I remember, Todd coined us the FNGs
because we were we were there at Gnomedex
in the blog world, and we were just
podcasters. We did not we weren't bloggers. And,
and, you know, Adam, you were there at
that event, and I was well, you gave
us a little hint that Apple was about
to drop some news.
But this was all pre Apple supporting podcasting.
And,
you know,
when I did that interview with Todd,
not all of it made it up in
the air, and I just remastered it. But,
parts that I cut out were talking about
he didn't want to have the stuff about
the navy because he was still full time
in the navy when he started
everything that he did in podcasting, Blueberry and
Robles.
He was finishing up his his Navy career,
and, you know, I don't know how he
had any time to sleep with everything he
was doing.
And and then, you know, he put that
energy
into podcasting full time, and,
eventually, it it led to the Association of
Downloadable Media, if anyone remembers that.
Yeah. We we tried to get
metrics worked out, and,
and then eventually that that led into the
IAB. And, we were on all those IAB
calls, and me and Todd were always backchanneling,
cracking jokes about something someone said that was
off the wall, you know, not quite accurate
or,
things like that.
But, you know, he really, really, really cared,
like no one else about the indie podcasters.
And I was lucky enough to, you know,
be at the events that you mentioned,
Podcast New Media Expo,
Blogworld,
obviously, Podcast Movement. We were both of us
were the
original,
funders for that,
when it was a GoFundMe kinda thing.
We did, Podfest. We've done NAB,
and many, many other events,
some that were not, you know, even close
to podcast specific, but we went,
he would look where I was presenting or
exhibiting, and I would look where he was
exhibiting, and we would
wind up at the same events.
And, you know, we got to spend many
a nights talking about podcasting. As you know,
Rob, all three of us, we till two,
three in the morning,
talking about podcasting.
And my wife would be, why are you
out so late? I'm like, well, Rob and
Todd again.
Yeah. Yeah. It happened quite often. Yeah. Yeah.
But,
you know,
one of the things, you know, he he
worked hard too was about fraud
and keeping fraud out of the space. And
and
if he saw a show that was doing
that moved over to us, he'd give me
a heads up and vice versa.
And, you know, he he really cared about
the integrity of the space.
And
can't say how much I'm gonna miss him.
Yeah. Incredible amount.
Yeah. It's
been rough.
Yeah.
So, Mike,
I want you to share some thoughts
on your experience with Todd.
Oh, yeah.
You know, I I tell this joke, oh,
it's not really a joke, but it sounds
like it should be. But,
I was with father Roderick and trucker Tom,
and we were walking to the Lipson party
that happened to get get shut down, whatever
happened there. So I thought, oh, let's go
check out this blueberry party. Walk in there
and here's this
skinny at the time, clean-cut Navy guy.
And,
he hands me a beer and says, welcome
to blueberry. And we hung out and I've
been kinda
a hanger on for the team for a
while and then,
got hired
and the rest is history. It's been, been
a wild ride. I'll tell you.
And, yeah, there's
a lot of,
lot of things that, I'm gonna miss.
Rob, you were talking about the back channel
on meetings. We we had that all the
time.
It was usually full full of some colorful
language and,
and whatnot, but,
both internal meetings and external meetings and all
that,
you know, just,
yeah. It's, just not going to be the
same.
No, for sure.
So, Adam, do you have any thoughts
on Todd?
Yeah.
Thanks for putting this together, Rob. Really appreciate
that. That's very, very nice. And and it's
it's good for everyone to heal. I mean,
I'm 61,
and a lot of people I know have
died in the past ten years, certainly from
my my old career in the music business.
Those people never last long.
But, man, when you sent me the email
a couple days ago, that I was really
in shock.
And,
because
there's people you just
that are just there, always there, always the
same, always fun. I mourned I mourned with
Dave Jones who sends his regards. Of course,
Dave and I have been doing the podcast
index and podcasting two point o for the
past five years.
And Todd has always been a big part
of that, pushing every single initiative forward.
And,
this was a weird one. I mean, really
for me, it's like, woah, this hit me
harder than anybody else. And I reflect that
and I say, why is it
because Todd was just always there. Todd was
always Todd. He could always count on I
mean, if I just think all the way
back, he was the most unlikely guy to
be in podcasting. He had a crazy voice.
You know? It was like
that was kind of the beauty of of
what podcasting as it started out is just
raw and said what he what he wanted
to say.
To this day,
even just a few weeks ago, I'd always
smile walking the dog, hearing Todd talk about
algorithms.
I don't know if that was purposeful, but
I was like, I kept shouting into my
into my phone. It's algorithms. It's algorithms.
The, so I saw him just in Dallas
at podcast movement, and it was so good
to just see him because we hadn't seen
each other personally in years.
And the last time, I think, we actually
saw each other in he's actually he's he's
witnessed
my, you know, two previous marriages and divorces.
He's been with with me in my life
for a long time.
And I think the last time we might've
seen each other in person was in Austin
when I was still living there. And,
we bumped into each other on the street
at night, which is really a kind of
an odd occurrence.
And,
and he was a big supporter of Value
for Value. He supported the No Agenda Show,
just a fantastic guy. And,
as I reflect on all the things he's
done, the voice that he's been for podcasting,
it's it's a loss. It really is a
loss because I knew that no matter what
crazy ideas were out there, what people came
up with, or what maybe the podcast industrial
complex was doing, if Todd was against it
or for it, he would let you know.
And that is really what I will miss
most about him.
On the other hand,
I think that, and I pray he's with
our Lord in heaven, that he is just
enveloped in his arms.
I feel that Todd would really want us
to remember him for the funny guy that
he was. He was all he yeah. He
could be he could be serious, but, man,
he had a a sense of humor about
him.
You know, the thing
we would make so much fun of him
all the time, and he always took that
in such stride. Because, of course, there'd always
be, oh, no. I'm under DNA. I can't
talk about that. You know? So I expect
him to pop up in any moment and
said, just wanna let you know. I know,
Adam, I can tell you about heaven, but
I'm under DNA from God, so I can't
say anything.
That to me was odd. Just a a
great guy, and, his memory will be with
me forever.
Yeah. Yeah. That's certainly true. And,
you know, matter no matter when you talk
to him and what situation,
he was always the same guy, same guy
on the podcast, same guy in person,
you know, even, you know, just one on
one, you know, he was, you know, always
always Todd. I mean, there was no other
way to describe it.
Yeah. And I think that,
this whole,
new media show was,
is just an extension of Todd's overall approach
and philosophy and things like that. And even
though there were
heated times on on the show,
between he and I about ideas about podcasting,
and
it it just really showed,
every week his passion for the the overall
overall medium. I mean, we both had the
same intent in mind. It just maybe occasionally
we had a different pathway of getting there.
But it was
really kind of,
remarkable, really. And I think
it's a sign of the of the earlier
age of podcasting,
just like what Adam was talking about, about
how and Mike, you were too about how
Todd would just, you know, speak his mind,
show up. I mean, that's what this podcast
was. This this new media show was both
of us.
I think I posted it on Facebook, too,
but,
it was just an appointment on our calendar,
right, for many, many years.
And for a few years, we did it
twice a week.
And really what it was, we just pulled
down our microphones
and started talking.
And I I think that's that's what the
the difference is between I I think what
a lot of people perceive podcasting to be
today is that it's this highly produced, highly
polished,
you know, almost like broadcast production. Right?
When
when
it really,
didn't come from that.
And I think his
his background of being in the Navy,
for many, many years, And,
you know, he's just so heavily in into
technology.
And and that was really the driving force
about this, you know, you know. And
and, Adam, you you you can speak to
this too. And I both
Mike and Rob have a background in technology
too. So there's a common thread here. You
know, Adam has definitely had a more broad
background in the, you know,
the MTV days and being an entertainer of
sorts.
And
but most of us came from more of
a technical background. I've got a marketing background,
but I was very steeped in the technology
side. But that was the big thing about
tech
with Todd that that really made him stand
out and what really made this medium possible.
I don't know. Rob or Adam, do you
wanna talk about that aspect of Todd and
why that was so important?
Well, I'll I'll say that I'm not I
don't know exactly the extent of Todd's technical
background.
To me, whenever we talked, he felt like
he was a tinkerer like me, and it's
particularly when it came to putting stuff together.
You know? Yep. It's always like, okay. I'm
getting I'm hearing myself back. Oh, wait a
minute. I've got another delay here.
Sorry. That camera just went on the fritz.
Oh, my drive died. I mean, I identify
so much with all of that from Todd,
and I'm I'm just happy that he built
up a nice team around him at Blueberry
that really supported his ideas because I can
identify with that. And and and from everything
I know, everyone at Blueberry really loved him,
his board, people who worked with him and
worked for him. Yeah.
And it's it can be challenging with a
tinkerer,
you know, because I know that he would
come up with an idea, and I wanna
implement it, and let's get this done, and
how can we make it happen?
So, yeah, that,
that was definitely one of the special aspects
of him.
Yeah. You could see it in the production
of the new media show. There was a
lot of,
regular technical issues, and that that was kind
of an issue
with really doing doing any kind of live
live production.
And
he wanted to own that whole process too.
I mean, we did a few episodes like
this one on a platform like a StreamYard
or whatever, but I don't think he ever
really liked that.
Oh oh, but, Rob, this is my favorite
part of this show. For the past year,
it's always been
Todd's talking about stuff and he used to
come up with video, and then you get
into this huge argument.
And, again, I was I always listen to
the media show when I'm walking the dog.
I think, like, Wednesday nights. And the dog
is always looking at me like, why are
you laughing? I said, because this is funny,
dog. Listen to these two guys. If just
the video audio conversation,
got to a point where it was just,
like, oh, I I need a little bit
of my diet right now. Let's tune in
to the new media show. I need to
hear this argument. And, of course, I was
always on Todd's side.
Of course. Yeah.
Me too. I have a face for radio.
So, yeah, that's,
that's how that works.
Well,
what's your thought too? I know,
you're
a I mean, you're an engineer, kind of
programmer, technical guy too. I think Todd probably
almost
probably at his happiest at CES.
Yeah. Right. You know, I was lucky enough
to go to a couple CESs when he
was there and and run around as crazy
as it was and doing all the recording.
But, I mean, he definitely
really enjoyed those events and and setting it
up. And,
obviously, he enjoyed the money he made from
it, but I think, you know, take the
money away. He still was just happy as
could be at that time. He's a gear
head like most of us, you know, just,
you know, wants to tinker with things and,
you know, oh, you got this new microphone.
Does it make me sound any better or
new camera, new this, that, the other thing.
And, you know, there's always something, you know,
I I've done a show with him as
well. You know, the,
podcast insider for blueberry.
And,
Yeah. It's, you know, we had the same
sort of technical issues
except for later on, I I started to
be in charge of recording, so that worked.
But
Yeah. And part of it is that he
he loved to tinker so much that he
was always playing with new gear and
and new things to,
to try and learn about,
new new tech, new devices and stuff. And
and companies would, like, send him stuff. So
he would
it it was almost like they were force
feeding him into that kind of Mhmm. Pattern
that he loved to do so much. So
it and it really kind of
showed in the show. And like Adam just
said, I can so much appreciate it because
in the early years you kind of had
to be a thinker to be successful in
podcasting. It wasn't
a easy thing to do like it is
now,
or easier.
Right? I I I remember I went to,
CS a couple of times, you know, helping
with the live
stream and all that. And, I mean, there
was just always something going on that, it
was messing up, but, you know, we all
pulled together, got it going. And usually, it
was Todd right in the middle running wires
and plugging things in and, you know, all
that. But, yeah, you're you're right, Rob. He
was definitely
at his best at CES. He'd he'd come
back to the to where we were live
streaming. So I just did this great interview
with this outfit that does whatever. And, you
know, and, you know, he was just so
excited about,
you know, all the stuff there, you know,
even the even all the iPhone and iPad
cases back in the day.
Yeah. I mean I mean, he set up
I mean, a lot of people don't know
this about topic. He would set up a
whole video production, live video streaming production from
CES and he would rent a full Zann
to haul a session there every year.
Right. I mean, it was a big, big
production. I mean, I went down there a
couple of times and and helped helped him
carry around cameras and stuff like that to
go around and
record conversations at the CES booths and stuff
like that. And,
yeah, so we had a fun time down
there. I know, Mike, you were down there
a fair amount of time too, but he
had a whole crew because he started a
podcast network. It's called the Tech Podcast Network.
And I was an early member of that
with the radio show that I did.
And and so I got involved and and
helped him stream,
some of the audio content,
over a streaming server that I had. We
had
a four camera, you know, switchboard,
the whole thing, and, you know, lighting and,
you know, had a overhead shot camera so
they could show the I mean, we we
had it dialed in, about every ten minutes
we were interviewing somebody.
Yeah. Yeah.
Todd had a lot of firsts in the
space. Right? The first podcast awards
Yeah. Which I I you know, we would
say,
when I talk about it, I'd be like,
Todd, why are you doing this to yourself?
This is strange.
I mean, you get I was wondering about
that. You get only grief. You get grief
from this. You know, it was it was
he was glutton for that, but he really
wanted to help, you know,
acknowledge have people acknowledge in those awards. And,
I I think more than anything else, Todd,
he tried to do whatever he could to
get the word out about podcast.
Yeah. It means for immediate work.
Danny wrote the first book on podcasting,
the the do it yourself guide back in
02/2005,
which was You have a copy of it
back here. So I've got one behind me
too on the shelf. Everybody has a copy.
It better be signed.
That's
right. So, I mean, it's it's really a
record. I mean, I think that that book
now is really
a record of what podcasting was like in
the early years.
And it's
it's,
you know, I kinda wanna get your guys'
thoughts on this. I mean,
podcasting has changed a lot in in ways
that are maybe not as significant as we
all kind of kind of like
to think. But the core of it really
isn't hasn't really changed. Right? Adam,
do you wanna talk about that?
About the core?
Yeah. About what what podcasting is really all
about and what what it's been about and
and
that even today,
the foundation of podcasting is still a chord
in that. Well,
yes. And I think Todd was a big
proponent of this. Although we argued often about
the concept of grow your show.
Right. Right.
Or how to grow your show. Right.
Look, what was great about podcasting, that's exact
as I said earlier, that's exactly what Todd
was. It's like the beauty of it was
not slick produced,
you know, removing all the umms and the
ahs, you know, being like,
you know, creating a wall of sound of
editing that everything was perfect. The beauty for
me in the early days was listening to
Michael Butler, the Rock and Roll Geek Show,
drinking a six pack, talking about a crappy
gig he had, listen to Don and Drew
in their farmhouse,
you know, listen to Todd fumble and bumble
and,
and stick things together and talk about early,
early hosting.
That's really what it's always been about. We
the what I call the podcast industrial complex
has definitely,
had a mind shift, and, you know, that's
because of you know, it's it's understandable.
Money,
big names.
There's so many huge success stories.
But, ultimately,
I prefer list I still listen to Dave
Winer's Scripting News podcast. He doesn't even call
it a podcast. He just records something on
his on his iPhone and uploads it.
That to me, the,
the the voices who just have something to
say for anyone who wants to listen, that
to me is what podcasting has always been
about. And the more
I talk about it, the more I see
people understanding that they can just do whatever
they want to do and do it for
a very smaller local community,
hyperlocal podcast in which I think Todd also
kind of glommed on to. And I hope
a lot of the the hosting companies
see that as really the next phase of
where we can go,
because people are even somewhat intimidated
from, well, I mean, how can I be
a Joe Rogan? Well, you don't have to
be a Joe Rogan. You can do something
for your town. You can do something for
your school, something for your club, something for
your church. Todd got that. He really did.
And if anything, he you know, the new
media show proved it. You know, that that's
a show for people like us. Not a
huge audience, really. I mean, relatively speaking.
Right. And but is where he could express
his views, argue with you, you express your
views.
That is what podcasting has always been about
to me. I and I think it's still
alive and well.
And, you know, this I'm just looking at
the comments. A lot of people are saying
we should have an award for Todd. I'm
all in on that. I think it's a
great idea. I'm not quite sure what we
should call it, and I don't think he
would want it to be the indie podcaster.
Right. But,
we should come up with something,
for that, you know, because
he deserves that. And there's definitely
a place that can be
memorialized with something like that.
Yeah. I was planning on adding him,
to the roster of the podcast hall of
fame that's coming up, you know, a special
award.
Mhmm. Oh, good. Good.
So
we can you know, maybe there's something else
that we can do, too. But The best
podcast, not from LA, Chicago or New York.
Right. Michigan. The best podcast from Michigan. That's
that's right there. Right.
Yeah. And I wanna
say I appreciate everybody who's watching this. You
know, we've got
a a large group of people that have
tuned in to watch this,
this live show, and there's just a fantastic
flow of people giving us heartfelt comments and
and things in here. And I I just
wanna
say and acknowledge that and say I would
love to go through and
talk about each one of these comments.
But that would that would turn this into
a three hour episode. So,
but, yeah, it's it's really an honor
for me,
to have spent so many years with Todd
doing that show, Adam. And
and it was really, you know, he was
just such a strong
believer in
this non editing thing like you were talking
about. I think I got pulled into,
you know,
in editing, and I think there's nothing wrong
with it. I but I do think that
there's something wrong with it if it goes
too far.
And that's oftentimes what people were tempted to
do. And but Todd was really looking for
actually, at the end of the day, because
he told me this over and over again,
he was looking for efficiency.
He was looking for
trying to get, you know, come in and
get the content done, get out. And so
we can move on to something else. Yeah.
That was, you know, when
we're, you know, planning products or improvements and
stuff at Blueberry, he was always in there.
Let's make it quicker, make it easier, make
it quicker. You know,
that was, you know, his,
his call every time, you know, it was
like, you know, well, this is going to
slow people down. You know, there's not, you
know, people got things to do,
you know?
Speaker three: Yeah.
Daniel j Lewis,
has a comment in here. It says the
the the Todd Cochran award needs to be
part of the podcast awards. Well, I think
it's a big question.
What's gonna happen to the podcast awards too?
Wasn't that single handedly Todd? The
podcast award? Yeah. I was single handedly. Pretty
much. He had some sort of
team behind it, but,
you know, us at Blueberry weren't really privy
to all that.
Yeah.
I wasn't either. I mean, a lot of
the access to even even the new media
show, you know, that's why I say Todd
was very much wanted to have it done
the way he wanted to have it done.
And so I didn't really have deep access
into the back end of the show, to
be quite frank about it. And it could
be one of the reasons why we're not
going out on all of his channels is
because, you know,
the setup that I have here,
was done when he was set up on
a different platform.
And so so I think he shifted to
a to a new platform because he wasn't
happy with
using StreamYard
or using, you know, like a Restream or
something like that. Not to denigrate any of
those platforms. It's just
you just had his own personal opinion about
the quality and how it was done. So,
so don't be surprised if you don't find
this episode on any of, Todd's channels.
Hopefully
it'll show up over there, but I'm not,
I'm not all that hopeful that it did.
It will go out in the RSS feed.
Okay. So that I I do have access
to that. So, I'll be able to post
both video and audio on the RSS.
Yeah.
I mean, is there anything else that you
guys wanna share about your
memories of Todd and
and his
his kinda lasting,
kinda legacy? I I guess, what does Todd
mean
to this podcast space? I mean, the outpouring
that I've seen,
what far surpassed
what I expected.
And I think the the impact that he
has had just, it just hits a nerve
with people. And I think it's
very,
significant. So I don't know who wants to
go first on that.
I always remember all the, conferences and stuff.
You know? The booth, that was one thing.
But it was all the after hours stuff,
you know, we'd be holding court in the
bar and, you know, there would be people
coming in, leaving and, you know, and just
all the best conversations
were that. And,
you know,
that that's the thing I'm gonna miss the
most is, you know, not, not that I,
you you know, wanna get, too drunked up
or anything at a conference, but,
you know, it was,
yeah, it was just all those conversations. And
then, you know, you walk through the, you
know, walk through just about anywhere around the
conference, and people were stopping Todd all the
time. You know? And, you know, it took
you half hour to get across the conference
if you're trying to get somewhere.
Lots of lots of people knew him. Oh,
yeah.
So
typical Todd was this most recent podcast,
podcast movement conference,
and,
there was a room for the podcast standards
project.
And if you know how these conference things
goes, everything costs something. And there was coffee
and water
and I think some,
some, you know, some sodas,
in the corner
and which cost $400
because that's what you have to do at
a at a conference. You gotta pay out
the nose for all kinds of stuff. But
that's Todd. Todd had arranged that. He said,
we gotta have coffee and sodas and water,
and, you know, he he would do that
kind of stuff because he knew how
he knew how it was supposed to be.
He did he did a really he was
he
he didn't always succeed with how it was
supposed to be according to him, but he
always knew what he wanted and always stood
for it. And,
I think you're right,
Rob. Just the outpouring,
from
from everybody shows what an impact he had
on the industry.
And his legacy will be in Blueberry, which,
I'm presuming can just continue
Mhmm. The way it has.
It was it's interesting that he was the
first, just a week ago, I think. He
was the first in twenty years in the
industry to say, you know what? We're gonna
raise our prices.
And I'm I'm actually very sad I didn't
get to have him on, on the podcasting
two point o podcast to hear him defend
that and talk about insights into it.
But so in that regard, he was a
leader of so many different things,
a a lover of all things podcasting,
and,
he'll be forever in my heart.
I I'll keep him there and and and
will miss him
as somebody
who you could always count on to defend
what was right,
and to promote what he really felt was
the correct way to move forward with podcasting,
and not necessarily
podcasting for profit,
but podcasting for podcasting sake.
Yeah. I think that's,
that's the biggest legacy I think,
that I take away from it is,
you know,
what inspired him to get started in this
medium was the non commercialism.
And that was a big theme. And Adam,
you remember those days, too. I mean, all
all of you guys remember when this medium
started, it certainly wasn't pro commercialism.
It was, you know, you
got, I had a commercial radio show when
I started podcasting,
you know, to be fully transparent about it.
I had ads in my podcast and
when I started in 2004
and very few people did
back then. So ones that did
kind of faced a little bit of,
blowback right from from their audience because of
the expectations that had been
set for that.
Adam, do you want to talk about that
part of it
at all?
Well, I mean, about the expectations?
Of it not being commercialized.
Yeah.
Well, I
you know,
that's an interesting point because Todd always walked
the line there. Yeah. But he also made
sure that whatever people wanted, he wanted to
get them at the right price, the most
efficient way, and the way that made most
sense. Just
in the past
week or so, he'd been working on chapter
images and how that could possibly be used
to track actual plays, as
I think Rob mentioned earlier, a big part
of the early measurement
and getting some standards together.
But I I just always remember Todd saying,
it's not always about making money. And he
would always give these statistics that such a
large portion of the blueberry
customer base was not there to make money.
They were there to to podcast for multiple
reasons.
Now,
I
when we started out with podcasting, it was
we never even thought about,
money, honestly.
It was just, you know, just how can
we get better gear? How can we get
bandwidth? Rob, you guys were the first. You
know? And I always said, how do those
Lip Sync guys do it? I mean, I
don't understand how they're making it so cheap.
There's something's up with this. What do these
do they have a sugar daddy somewhere?
Well, most podcasts
don't download a whole lot. So,
and it works to our advantage.
This is true.
So it really wasn't
about that,
in the beginning. And,
you know,
I'm I'm still you know, I've never run
an ad on a podcast in my life.
I love value for value. I love people
supporting,
the show or any show because they get
value out of it.
Been pushing that. When we went to streaming
value for value, Todd was right there, first
one. You know, Blueberry supported it.
He believed in in many different ways, but
also, you know, you know, if if if
people want dynamic ads, he'll help you insert
them. That was Todd.
Well, you know, Raw voice started as an
ad agency.
That was that was, the core business, and
it morphed into
podcast services and hosting and all that stuff.
But, you know, Todd was very generous with
his time with just about everybody. I mean,
he didn't care if he had 20 listeners
or 20,000
listeners, you know, he would give you the
time you needed to understand what was going
on, how he thought it worked.
And,
if it was technically, he'd send it to
me. But, anyway.
Yeah. And and I think to kind of
dovetail off all that,
Adam, you're exactly correct.
He also had a common saying that he
said all the time was that podcasters need
to get paid.
So he didn't say how they were gonna
get paid. That's correct.
He told you that he was
podcasters needed to get paid for their time.
Yeah. Because
he was held accountable
with his own wife.
Back back when he started podcasting that he
had two years, it was like a countdown
that they had to make it
financially supporting him and them Mhmm. For him
to pursue it. And I think that is
also part of podcasting too.
Yeah.
Rocky has a good comment.
There Todd was the essence of radical candor.
One of my
favorite Todd stories was, when he got an
offer for
to, have Blueberry
acquired, bought by another company.
And
so a certain person we all know remember
Norm.
And,
and and the, offer that was sent over
was,
little less than what Todd would have liked.
So we got on the phone with with
Norm and and said, I I got your
offer here. Hold on a second. And he
put his phone right next to the shredder
and put the offer through the shredder.
There's even more stories to that,
Rob, because I was there when that whole
thing went down. But but, yeah, he's,
I don't think Todd ever wanted to be
acquired by by podcast one for one thing.
So so it was one of those things.
And I do have a clip,
that I was
wanting to play of
of a of a dialogue,
that happened with Norm Paddis, who's also passed
away now. And he is the the founder
of,
Westwood One.
Rob,
you know him
well from the past.
Yep. And and so I wanted to play
it because what what it does is it
paints a picture
of,
the entrance
of
commercial radio and what what what the commercial
radio side
thought of podcasting
and kinda how it's how it's morphed. So,
let let me go ahead and play that
now.
Really excited to talk with you, Norm, about
what you guys got going on, you you
know, over at podcast one, what you guys
are doing. You guys are tearing things up
and
and moving fast. I I love that to
see,
see a player in a space that is
is motivated and and,
you know, I I guess we're I hate
to say it this way, but, you know,
breathing new fire into the space. So, you
know, what are what are you guys,
I guess, first off, why don't you just
go ahead and give everyone a little background,
you know, Norm about, you know, what you've
done in the past, and I think that
will kinda set the tenor here this morning.
Well, thanks. First of all, it's great to
be with, with both of you. You know,
I,
I know you both,
you know, Rob,
you and I have,
have chatted a few times
and, Todd, I certainly know you by reputation.
So it's a real pleasure to be able
to sit down with you and chat. I
I started out in this business,
about thirty five years ago and founded a
I had done some things before that, but
I I my probably my biggest claim to
fame is that I founded a company called
Westwood One,
which I which I was, the, chairman,
the chairman of until a couple of years
ago, and Westwood One,
was the largest producer and distributor of nationally
sponsored radio programming,
certainly in the nation, probably in the world.
We,
we
owned, managed, or distributed,
NBC,
radio,
CBS News, CNN,
plus we, provided,
lots and lots and lots of entertainment programming
in the talk genre and the music genre,
you know, countdown shows,
live concerts,
you know, whatever you can imagine. And, you
know, we dealt with
probably 50%
of the licensed radio stations in America.
It's it's no
coincidence
that our move into,
on demand
audio,
or as we call it podcasting,
that, that we created a,
a destination
and a site,
that,
that's called Podcast One
because the story of Westwood One's podcast one
is an interesting story to tell.
And the reason we moved in this direction
was because of all of the similarities
that I saw
between,
forming Westwood One at a time when syndicated
radio shows and network radio shows
were not really,
very,
very well thought of or even, you know,
part of the overall media mix of national
advertisers.
It it seemed to me that podcasting today,
you know, is pretty much in the place
where syndicated radio was,
when I started Westwood One,
which was the original reason why it, why
it caught my interest. We're Yeah. So I
think what's happening in the medium right right
now is is
we're in this transition phase,
in
what's happening in industry that kind of has
its roots in the past.
Back when podcasting started, it was a revolution,
really against
the commercialization
of broadcast.
And
and for a few years, it was an
anti commercial
medium. I'm talking about podcasting. Mhmm. And so
now we've kind of moved into a new
phase where we've
added,
more commercial elements. You know, there's a lot
more focus on monetization
and people making money with their podcasts and
programmatic advertising, which mirrors exactly what broadcast radio
has been done on the air for years
and ad loads are going up. And so
you can see a direct correlation. In the
early years, podcasting was a lot about video
too. So We we become what we were
trying to avoid.
Exactly. And things go in full cycle. And
I think
Rocky Thomas made a comment in this thread
as well that kind of put a little
ribbon and bow on this that she's been
through. She's seen this cycle happen before with
streaming radio and and other types of media
that has tried to transition audiences into a
new delivery method.
And so that's kind of what's happened here.
We've transitioned our audience into a new delivery
method for content. And that's why that's why
we've seen a lot of the big,
studios and
commercial radio
companies
transition into doing more podcasting is because they
saw it as the future of their distribution.
And that's really what we're talking about here.
So
if if that's,
you know, if we're okay with that, my
question is, well, what's the next revolution
that we're gonna create,
as a blowback to over commercialization
again?
What's next?
That's a good question. I don't know.
Oh. Yeah.
Alright, everyone. Thank you for being here. We'll
see you next week. Thanks, Rob. And,
we'll see everyone here on the new media
show. Everyone take care. We'll see you next
time. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.
Alright.
So you know Todd's up there right now
with Norm Paddis in heaven going, just told
you so. I told you so. Told you
so. We lost,
Norm a couple years ago as well. You
know? Yeah.
Yeah. And I worked with Norm for a
year down in Los Angeles. So, you know,
that that,
you know, Todd would come down and and
come into Norm's office, and he and I
and Norm would would talk about the industry
and where it was going.
And and what was really interesting about Norm's
perspective is that, you know, he was the
guy that built,
you know, nationally syndicated,
talk shows
on on the radio side.
And he could see that crossover,
with
with podcasting and wanted to do the same
thing he did thirty years ago,
with podcasting,
with what he did with radio. And so
he could see that crossover, and that's kinda
what we're
we've seen happen over the years. And I
don't know if, Rob, if you want to
talk about that and and, you know, the
Todd's feeling and also about the the entrance
of
of radio,
into the podcasting space and how they've done
it and
and what the implications
of that,
are. I don't know. You know? It's open
to all three of you guys. Yeah.
My conversations with Dato that, you know, we
were always like,
you know, just repurpose content. We were like,
but it is what it is. You know,
we were he was always open to anyone
come in. Didn't mean he had to he
had to like it,
the the content.
But he felt, you know,
strongly that anyone should have a voice.
Yeah. You know? And and I remember a
quote I heard from someone at NPR once
was,
NPR was created,
so that anyone could have a voice. And
then podcasting came along and said, well, we
didn't mean everyone.
So,
you know, and,
but I think podcasting has always been welcoming,
and Todd has been a big part of
that,
welcoming anyone in. He was going out finding
businesses,
going to different conferences. What's ADM is the
one conference you go to, which is and
just for people to do internal
podcasts
for
training their,
marketing team. You know, it's the RSS
has so many
powerful uses, and Todd understood that and that
that RSS was at the hub
and the heart of all of what we
do,
and to stay and and he had the
fear like, I have the fear, you don't
wanna have too many closed walled gardens.
Right?
As we have out there,
more and more of these walled gardens popping
up. I think you talked about it. It
was in our I think it was maybe
on the last show you guys talked a
little bit about,
the walled garden issue,
Oh, yeah. Spotify
and that.
So,
making it open and for everyone,
and and
legitimately
meaning it, not like NPR where it's like,
oh, no. Not
everyone. Uh-huh. Everyone's we want.
So any other comments on
that clip?
Well, it just shows, you know, that
even when he had a high profile guest
on, there was always technical things that he
Yeah. Do you guys see his Mac wanna
update during that?
Yeah. That's why I like that clip so
much because it That's so odd.
It really showed the
the the desire on our part,
with this show to kinda push the envelope
and kinda go into areas that maybe,
were pushing the envelope.
Because that clip that I played for you
was an episode that we did back in
2013.
So, you know, this this show started
as the Saturday morning tech show, and we
did that for a couple of years. I
was just
occasional guest on the Saturday morning tech show.
And then, I made a suggestion
at some point, probably a year into it,
that we changed the name
to
the new media show because that's all we're
talking about. Why?
What's that? You did it mid episode.
Yeah. Right.
And Todd actually
registered the domain name and got it set
up, probably before the episode was over.
I would say
I don't know exactly the history of it,
but I always admired,
Blueberry and subsequently Todd for pow PowerPress
for the WordPress plugin. Talked about that. Because
what's so cool about that is, like, hey.
Here's how you can create an RSS feed.
You can create a podcast feed. If you
want to, you can connect it to Blueberry,
but you don't have to. I always thought
that was one of the most beautiful gifts
of podcasting. Yeah. We always wanted it to
be hosting agnostic. You know? Yes. Where wherever
the wherever you can find a spot for
your file, it'll work.
I always love that. Well, that's an unusual
approach.
Great approach. I I think it worked. I
think it worked well for Blueberry, and I
and it it,
to this day, I mean, it's I have
friends who still use PowerPress.
Yeah. Yeah. And, we're not planning on slowing
down. We'll, we'll keep it alive here. Good.
Very good. Well, in a lot of the
I mean, I don't know that a lot
of people realize this, but I I think
it was, like, a quarter. I don't know
if, Rob or or Mike, if you can
jump in on us a quarter or
a third of all of the RSS feeds
out there are actually self hosted. They're not,
I don't know if that number is dropped
or not. Yeah. I'm not sure either, but,
I know
take out the portion of the good portion
of the web is,
is par or WordPress based. So
you know, that I talked to, you know,
new new people into podcast, and then I
said, well, do you have a WordPress site?
Well, here you go.
And and, that's always been a, you know,
a great thing whether they hosted with us
or not. It was
just something we wanted to give back to
the community, and we were all behind it
at the time. You know, Angelo came up
with PowerPress and
and,
and, since the the other plugin for WordPress
got abandoned, that was the Genesis story of
that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And I know, Adam, in the
early years,
you created
the software to enable podcasting to to happen.
And
and I don't know if you wanna share
a little bit about that
that path and
your work with,
software and kinda getting this medium started. Well,
creating software is a big statement.
Stringing Apple strips script together with help from
with help from other people is more like
it.
That's why I started The Daily Source Code
is because there was a concept, I had
it working, it worked at my house.
You know, this this little, I think I
called it iPotter script,
would look for a new episode in a
feed. I think it was just one at
the time.
And,
I think I was able to expand it
to more than one later, but it, you
know, would detect a new episode, download it
to my computer, sync the iPad. We still
had to have our iPad synced to iTunes
at the time, and success. There it was.
You know? So I just always saw the
iPad as a transistor radio. It had kind
of the same format and dimensions.
And so the daily source code was literally
to attract software developers,
thinking, you know, you work in source code.
We need source code. I'm a do this
daily. The only reason I did that is
so that the software developers would have something
to develop against.
And, you know, we we learned some of
the early things crazy enough. Not a good
idea when you first subscribe to a show
when half the world or more than half
the world was on dial up. Not a
good idea to immediately download all the episodes
in the feed. I mean, that's literally the
literally the kind of things we, we discovered
in those early days.
So, you know, tinkering around is is more
like it. The daily source code was my
source code. I would, I would get a
copy of your feed and then fix, you
know, change it to all my stuff and
upload it to the web. How did you
do this? Fix this bit. Fix
yes. Indeed.
Yeah. Yeah. And back back in those days,
you you couldn't really for the same reasons,
Adam, you you really couldn't make your media
file too, too heavy. Right? As far as
it's it's bit rate. I know I put
out a lot of my episodes back in
those days at like 23 ks or something
like that. Back in the day, I when
we were doing this, I literally had a
Mac and I was using, I think it
was called Mac drive,
and it kind of mounted on your on
your desktop. It just looked like a drive
and you could store stuff in there. And
I was just putting my files in there
and pointing to that. And I heard later
from Steve Jobs
that they noticed all this bandwidth,
you know,
going out and they were trying to figure
it out. This is what he told me,
so I'm gonna believe it.
And, you know, he said, well, what And
it got to him somehow and it's like,
well, what are they doing with all this
bandwidth? And said, well, they're working on this
podcasting thing. I don't know if it had
the name then.
And, you know, they were thinking about maybe
shutting that down. And according to Steve Jobs,
he said, no, no, no. Let's just give
him what he needs. Let's see what happens.
And so I think that's what later led
to a call to come and talk about
putting podcasting into iTunes.
Yeah.
And also another story that involves,
Steve Jobs,
in a connection with Todd
is, you know, Todd's Geek News Central podcast,
would occasionally give, you know, his opinion on
hardware and devices and and tech and things
like that. On occasion.
How about
On occasion. Right. Yeah.
And he gave some feedback on a on
a new Mac that he bought,
on his podcast. And somehow Steve Jobs heard
about it and
had his assistant,
Steve Jobs, actual
assistant, call Todd
and tell Todd that,
Steve Jobs is on the line. Would you
like to talk to him?
And so Todd got on the phone with
Steve Jobs. They called him because of the
the reach and the impact of his Geek
News Central podcast. And Yeah. That's awesome.
Yeah. And and Steve wound up sending him
a a new Mac because of that conversation.
Oh, I never got that out of Steve
Jobs. Man, I got screwed.
I I I guess they they delivered it
to Apple store or whatever in Honolulu, and
Todd went in there. And it was like
the seas parted,
and all the employees were staring out. Who's
this guy? He got a computer from Steve.
So
Yeah. I mean, it's an impressive story, but
it's Yeah. It's very,
it's very much a part of that that
Lord that that is now Todd Cochran. You
know, he's
he had that kinda impact with his podcast,
and
and he was the only one that I've
ever heard of that had a twenty year
advertiser,
that stayed with him from 2005
to, you know, just this last week, as
a sponsor of a show. And that was
GoDaddy.
The king of GoDaddy, Todd Cochran, was definitely
the king of the codes. King of the
codes. There you go. Right. Yeah. And
and that is so unusual. It just it
it's also because he was able to build
this ecosystem around his discount codes. Yeah. But,
you know, the the whole GoDaddy thing was,
it was the reason Ravoy started,
GoDaddy calling us. So do you know any
other podcasters that might wanna advertise?
This is working so good.
And, so he got on his show and
said,
you know, I need a lawyer. I need
a biz dev guy,
marketer, whatever. And
that's how that company formed.
And, you know, they didn't even meet each
other until that first, portable media expo out
in Ontario.
You know, but the company had been going
for six months or whatever.
We're coming up on twenty years, but, Blueberry,
the September
27.
Yeah. Mike, why don't you share a little
bit? I don't know if, Rob, if you
know know the story a little bit about
the
the beginnings of,
Raw Voice and Blueberry. I know it was
very much a grassroots
funded startup that he created and and was
really the heart and soul of this, but
I know he also had a lot of
loyal
friends that he had created,
around,
creating that company.
Yeah. Well, initially, we were gonna have multiple
verticals,
you know, Blueberry being a community
and,
tech podcast was part of that. And we
we we still have the domain, but we
had, raspberry with no no e's. I don't
know what that was gonna ever be used
for.
That's completely
different
tech device. Right? Yeah. I was just going
through all the domain names on the list
and there's some fun ones in there, but,
but, yeah, that's, that's how it started. And
then, you know, at some point along the
way we decided we wanted to get into
hosting
and that's where we decided, well, blueberry be
good. You know, the current company name would
have probably been better
for a hosting company, raw voice.
But,
I always thought that that was a terrific
name.
So I was surprised when when he chose
the name blueberry, actually. Right. Right. And that,
that stemmed from his parents were in the,
fruit distribution
business.
You know, blueberries, raspberries, all the stuff that's
grown in Southern Michigan.
And,
so and then, of course, Rob Royce, the
if you look at the logo for that,
it's a carrot.
Fresh organic media
was the tagline.
Yeah. I mean, it's a very,
interesting time for for the company. I know
a lot of the
the board and a lot of the people
that joined him in building that
that
platform.
He built around building friendships
with people that were, you know,
connected to his network and
and just were attracted to him in a
significant way
to want to contribute. And and a lot
of the founding people of of that company,
contributed a small amount of money themselves to
help Oh, yeah. The fund. There was a
a bootstrap thing, you know,
invested a little and,
and, yeah, it's been working out. You know,
we've had team members come and go and
all that, but,
you know, the core group is still there
mostly,
the,
it was just, you know, one of those
things that grew out of nothing. I mean,
everybody was part time for
a long time. I mean, Todd never came
on full time until
2015
or 2016,
something like that.
Maybe even later than that. You know, I've,
I've been on full time since 2015
part time before that.
And, you know, we all had jobs and,
you know, we do this on the side.
Yeah. Well, Todd Todd was like that for
many years in the early years where he
he was still
employed by the Navy,
as a
as a serviceman
or as a contractor. Civilian
there for a while.
Yep. USA or whatever. But,
yeah. So
when he moved to Michigan's when he went
full time, I
I'm not sure what year that was.
Yeah.
It wasn't that long ago. No. So was
it, like, maybe three year? Three or four
maybe about four years ago, he moved from
Hawaii because that's where he was,
where he raised his family and and had
had a connection to the naval base there.
So,
that's kind of back in the time frame
when I got to know Todd. Is it
you know, I was living on the West
Coast and
up in the Seattle, and he was in
Hawaii. So it was always, you know, doing
these shows at 11:00 in the morning was
like Todd had to get up at like,
you know,
eight in the morning or something like that
to be able to do the show. Oh,
that Saturday morning show. I think he was
up at six. Oh, I know. But he
was an early riser,
mostly anyway. So but yeah. I mean and
then during COVID,
we did this show twice a week.
So
and then then we kinda got burned out
of doing that twice a week
and and scaled it back again to
to once a week. And that seemed to
work better with Todd's increasingly busy schedule.
Well, he was recording
at one time
when you guys were doing two a week
and we were doing two a week of
podcast insider.
Plus he had some other show he was
doing at the time. I forget. But he
was, like, recording every day, sometimes twice a
day.
Yeah.
Yes. We never really gave up,
at all to any degree his podcaster,
kind of hat of sorts, where a lot
of people in the industry
over the last few years have I mean,
a lot of the people that lead companies
and and do things in the medium are
not podcasters themselves.
Yeah. We still have,
I wanna say, five podcasters on the team
that have all been podcasting over twenty years
Mhmm. So that are still at it.
So before we kinda wrap this up, I
was hoping not to go too much beyond
an hour, but, I don't know. Adam, if
you wanna give any final thoughts,
on your
my final thoughts are I just pray for
his family, for all of his friends.
I mourn with them.
I pray for Todd every single day,
and thank him,
for what he was able to do while
he was here with us.
And the same goes, of course, for Blueberry
and all the people who were,
affected by him, who were motivated by him,
and,
may he long live in our memories.
Yeah. I think he will.
Definitely gonna live in mine. Rob, do you
have any final thoughts?
Yeah.
You know, some knew Todd and I only
as competitors, but I knew Todd pretty much
as a friend. Yeah.
You know, and
he he was always willing to talk,
and we always talked to every show.
And going to a show
where Blueberry's at and Todd not being there
the next time is really gonna hit home.
You know,
I used to see Todd a lot more
than I'd see my own boss. I'd see
Todd five to 10 times a year. I
used to see Laurie once every two or
three years.
You know, so he,
he was just
a great guy, and
and
I could not have made it through those
IAB calls every week if it wasn't for
the back channel joke.
Yes.
He really, you know, really helped me get
through that. And
and It was a lot of lot of
frustration on those calls.
I was on a few of them too.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike, is there any other thoughts that you
have? Oh, I just,
you know, it's
it really sucks around here lately,
obviously.
And like I said, we're definitely,
praying with the family and everybody,
and
we'll get through it. Blueberry's gonna soldier on
in his memory, and and
we're, not planning on slowing down. And I
don't know who gets to go to those
IAB meetings now, so I guess we'll figure
that out.
Yeah. Yeah. That's a small part of the
of the challenge, you know, trying to replace
his his heart in in that company is
not gonna be easy to do either. And,
you know, he always hated me calling him
my boss, but I did it anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah. He just wanted to be one of
the guys. Yeah.
There's no question about that. And,
you know, my
my final thoughts on this is that I
just really appreciate the podcasting
community,
who has really
stepped forward and put forth a lot of
heart and a lot of,
thought to
the legacy that Todd is leaving and expressing
their condolences. I've been overwhelmed by
people expressing that to me.
And and and including Todd on that, but
primarily
Todd and
just
the
the recognition
of the significance that he had,
sometimes doesn't surface itself until we lose somebody
as much. And I know I've heard some
people say that
I think James Cridland
said this in a group.
If only people
appreciated
and were nice to each other when they
were alive as much as they did when
they were they were gone.
So
so thank you guys for being here.
Thank you, Rob. Appreciate it. For hosting this.
Yeah. Thanks. Alright. Well, thank you everybody for
being here.
I appreciate it.
Okay. Have a great day. Bye.