1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:06,259 Physics world. 2 00:00:06,639 --> 00:00:09,039 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,900 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:12,179 In this episode, 5 00:00:12,544 --> 00:00:15,105 I'm going to chat with Annette Bramley, who 6 00:00:15,105 --> 00:00:16,964 has over twenty years experience 7 00:00:17,505 --> 00:00:20,644 fostering research excellence in The United Kingdom 8 00:00:21,105 --> 00:00:23,904 and has coauthored a new book about how 9 00:00:23,904 --> 00:00:26,724 to build a successful research collaboration. 10 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:28,339 But first 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,060 Twenty twenty two is the United Nations International 12 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:40,659 Year of Glass, 13 00:00:41,204 --> 00:00:44,645 And, naturally, we're very excited about that here 14 00:00:44,645 --> 00:00:45,865 at Physics World. 15 00:00:46,725 --> 00:00:48,825 I'm joined down the line by my colleague 16 00:00:48,884 --> 00:00:52,344 and the Physics World features editor, Tushna Kamasariat, 17 00:00:53,060 --> 00:00:55,460 who is planning a special issue of the 18 00:00:55,460 --> 00:00:59,000 magazine for later this year that will celebrate 19 00:00:59,460 --> 00:00:59,960 glass. 20 00:01:00,579 --> 00:01:01,399 Hi, Tushna. 21 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:02,840 Welcome to the podcast. 22 00:01:03,619 --> 00:01:05,859 Hi, Hamish. Great to be here. And, yes, 23 00:01:05,859 --> 00:01:08,415 we're definitely excited about the year of glass 24 00:01:08,415 --> 00:01:10,494 and the special issue that is hopefully gonna 25 00:01:10,494 --> 00:01:11,634 be the month of May, 26 00:01:12,415 --> 00:01:14,015 for all of you. Very keen to read 27 00:01:14,015 --> 00:01:14,515 it. 28 00:01:14,894 --> 00:01:18,034 Excellent. So so, Tushna, what is an UN 29 00:01:18,254 --> 00:01:18,754 international 30 00:01:19,055 --> 00:01:21,295 year? Because I think we've we've covered them 31 00:01:21,295 --> 00:01:24,489 in the past, haven't we? What does such 32 00:01:24,489 --> 00:01:25,549 a thing entail? 33 00:01:26,250 --> 00:01:28,590 Yeah, Hamish. The UN picks a topic, 34 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,670 and it's it's 35 00:01:30,969 --> 00:01:33,370 quite varied. They've had all different sorts of 36 00:01:33,370 --> 00:01:35,784 themes and topics, and the ones we've covered 37 00:01:35,784 --> 00:01:36,844 in the past are, 38 00:01:37,385 --> 00:01:39,625 well, there was a rather obvious year of 39 00:01:39,625 --> 00:01:40,125 physics. 40 00:01:40,585 --> 00:01:42,765 I think that was 02/2005. 41 00:01:42,905 --> 00:01:44,825 Mhmm. And then they've had things like the 42 00:01:44,825 --> 00:01:45,805 year of astronomy. 43 00:01:46,185 --> 00:01:47,865 One of the things that I remember that 44 00:01:47,865 --> 00:01:49,725 we did a lot about was the 45 00:01:50,519 --> 00:01:51,739 year of light, 46 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,439 and that was in 2015, 47 00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:55,659 if I remember correctly. 48 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,040 And so it's this you know, it's this 49 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,780 idea that they pick these these key 50 00:02:01,479 --> 00:02:03,319 things, and and and it's a whole year 51 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:04,060 of celebrating 52 00:02:04,754 --> 00:02:07,254 the science and society and the applications. 53 00:02:07,635 --> 00:02:09,634 It's it's just lots of stuff about glass, 54 00:02:09,634 --> 00:02:12,275 isn't it? Indeed. Exactly. So it's like a 55 00:02:12,275 --> 00:02:14,675 whole list of programs and events for the 56 00:02:14,675 --> 00:02:15,414 whole year. 57 00:02:15,794 --> 00:02:17,395 And and so it kicks off, I think, 58 00:02:17,395 --> 00:02:19,590 in a few weeks, doesn't it, with with 59 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:22,569 an opening conference on glass in Geneva? 60 00:02:23,189 --> 00:02:25,110 That's right. Yes. That's right. They're gonna have 61 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:27,770 a big opening ceremony in Geneva, and then, 62 00:02:27,909 --> 00:02:29,050 you know, they have, 63 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:32,685 they have an international high-tech industrial congress, which 64 00:02:32,685 --> 00:02:33,344 is in 65 00:02:33,805 --> 00:02:36,284 Shanghai later on, and then a similar thing 66 00:02:36,284 --> 00:02:38,844 in Berlin. And the of course, with, 67 00:02:39,245 --> 00:02:40,625 a topic like this, 68 00:02:41,004 --> 00:02:43,564 there's gonna be some amazing museums and art 69 00:02:43,564 --> 00:02:46,139 galleries that will get involved through the year. 70 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:49,819 And, apparently, the clo the closing ceremony will 71 00:02:49,819 --> 00:02:52,539 be in Japan in December. So it is 72 00:02:52,539 --> 00:02:54,699 truly all over the world. And, obviously, glass 73 00:02:54,699 --> 00:02:55,919 is something, but, 74 00:02:56,379 --> 00:02:59,199 you know, it is like light. It's absolutely 75 00:02:59,340 --> 00:02:59,840 everywhere. 76 00:03:00,365 --> 00:03:02,305 And it looks like there's lots of local, 77 00:03:02,844 --> 00:03:05,645 events. One that really intrigued me was one 78 00:03:05,645 --> 00:03:08,224 called from pharaohs to high-tech 79 00:03:08,525 --> 00:03:10,844 glass, and that's a conference that's going to 80 00:03:10,844 --> 00:03:12,300 be held in Egypt, of course, 81 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:15,020 in in April and May. So it looks 82 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:17,500 like there's lots of really interesting things about 83 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,219 glass coming up this year. Mhmm. And and 84 00:03:20,219 --> 00:03:21,740 so from your point of view, you know, 85 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:24,159 you're you're trying to put together a program 86 00:03:24,219 --> 00:03:26,985 for for Physics World magazine. What are some 87 00:03:26,985 --> 00:03:30,205 of the intersection points between physics and glass 88 00:03:30,504 --> 00:03:31,724 that you're looking at? 89 00:03:32,425 --> 00:03:34,925 Well, there's so many. It's almost 90 00:03:35,385 --> 00:03:37,784 too much to sort of squeeze into one 91 00:03:37,784 --> 00:03:39,885 issue, which is only a good thing, really. 92 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,000 But, you know, I mean, obviously, there's the 93 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,080 very literal, you know, the amount of glass 94 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,400 we use in our laboratory in physics in 95 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:48,780 so many different ways. 96 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:50,860 And, you know, it was something, 97 00:03:51,239 --> 00:03:53,245 that, you know, I think we all sort 98 00:03:53,245 --> 00:03:55,645 of discussed, what it was like when there 99 00:03:55,645 --> 00:03:58,125 were actual glass blowers that worked in physics 100 00:03:58,125 --> 00:03:58,625 laboratories, 101 00:03:58,925 --> 00:04:00,465 you know, that a little bit of 102 00:04:00,764 --> 00:04:01,905 interesting history, 103 00:04:02,525 --> 00:04:05,039 and and sort of the very practical bits 104 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:05,620 there. 105 00:04:06,239 --> 00:04:07,919 But then, of course, there's also, you know, 106 00:04:07,919 --> 00:04:09,459 there's all sorts of interesting 107 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,939 glasses and glassy materials 108 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:14,479 when it comes to condensed matter physics. You 109 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,419 know, there's been a number of Nobel prizes, 110 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:19,875 awarded to it from last year's spin glasses 111 00:04:19,875 --> 00:04:21,495 to Phil Anderson's Nobel. 112 00:04:21,875 --> 00:04:24,854 And so there's that idea of condensed matter 113 00:04:25,555 --> 00:04:26,055 glasses. 114 00:04:27,154 --> 00:04:30,034 And then there's all these modern high-tech glasses 115 00:04:30,034 --> 00:04:31,654 from windows to windshields, 116 00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:35,389 and then there's fiber optic cables. 117 00:04:36,490 --> 00:04:39,470 There's the very cool applications of glass and 118 00:04:39,689 --> 00:04:43,289 some very key big science experiments, like, you 119 00:04:43,289 --> 00:04:44,430 know, the ones 120 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:46,910 that jumped to mind for me immediately, 121 00:04:48,169 --> 00:04:49,789 the mirrors in LIGO, 122 00:04:50,475 --> 00:04:53,055 and, of course, any other interferometer, really, 123 00:04:53,595 --> 00:04:54,654 or the photomultiplier 124 00:04:55,115 --> 00:04:56,254 tubes in Kamiokande, 125 00:04:56,714 --> 00:04:59,435 you know, some some sort of beautiful and 126 00:04:59,435 --> 00:05:01,615 key uses of glass. So, really, 127 00:05:01,995 --> 00:05:02,730 you know, 128 00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:05,970 glass is everywhere in physics. It is. It 129 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:07,850 it is everywhere, isn't it? And, you know, 130 00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:09,529 also in real life, of course, you know, 131 00:05:09,529 --> 00:05:12,110 the the Internet is brought to us via 132 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:15,129 glass fiber optics and, you know, you've got 133 00:05:15,129 --> 00:05:15,495 glass 134 00:05:16,214 --> 00:05:19,254 windscreen in your car. And, I'm drinking out 135 00:05:19,254 --> 00:05:21,495 of a a glass right now, because my 136 00:05:21,495 --> 00:05:23,975 throat's getting a bit dry. It's yeah. It's 137 00:05:24,055 --> 00:05:25,834 I mean, it's such an amazing material 138 00:05:26,214 --> 00:05:27,595 and and so many opportunities. 139 00:05:28,055 --> 00:05:29,415 Now I know I know you don't want 140 00:05:29,415 --> 00:05:31,399 to give away too much, but what are 141 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:33,720 some of the ideas that you're exploring at 142 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,220 the moment for for that special issue 143 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:39,339 of physics world, that's looking at glass? 144 00:05:40,039 --> 00:05:40,539 Well, 145 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,279 some of them are the ones that I've 146 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,019 just mentioned. 147 00:05:43,719 --> 00:05:44,444 Of course, 148 00:05:45,004 --> 00:05:46,225 we'll be looking into, 149 00:05:46,925 --> 00:05:49,324 hopefully, all of these topics. As I said, 150 00:05:49,324 --> 00:05:50,865 there's definitely gonna be, 151 00:05:51,564 --> 00:05:53,665 some stuff on the condensed matter angle. 152 00:05:54,365 --> 00:05:56,805 We're hopefully gonna have an interesting thing on, 153 00:05:56,805 --> 00:05:58,889 you know, the sort of practical users and 154 00:05:58,889 --> 00:05:59,389 also, 155 00:06:00,250 --> 00:06:02,670 the physics of glass blowing maybe, 156 00:06:03,529 --> 00:06:05,389 and and, you know, art with glass. 157 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:07,870 And, you know, unsurprisingly, 158 00:06:09,860 --> 00:06:12,014 the president of this International 159 00:06:12,475 --> 00:06:13,355 Year of Glass, 160 00:06:14,314 --> 00:06:14,814 is, 161 00:06:15,675 --> 00:06:16,175 one 162 00:06:16,555 --> 00:06:17,055 Alicia 163 00:06:17,995 --> 00:06:19,294 Duran. She is, 164 00:06:20,235 --> 00:06:20,875 part of, 165 00:06:21,675 --> 00:06:23,935 you know, and and she's she's a Spanish 166 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:26,660 researcher, and she is a physicist or at 167 00:06:26,660 --> 00:06:28,279 least she has a degree. Oh, fantastic. 168 00:06:29,779 --> 00:06:32,120 So, you know, and and she she covers 169 00:06:32,660 --> 00:06:34,580 a whole lot of interesting things. So we're 170 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:36,600 gonna we're gonna be talking to her 171 00:06:37,060 --> 00:06:39,535 and getting her her look, her her perspective 172 00:06:39,754 --> 00:06:41,115 on this because she was one of the 173 00:06:41,115 --> 00:06:41,855 key people, 174 00:06:42,634 --> 00:06:44,735 involved in putting together this proposal 175 00:06:45,514 --> 00:06:46,334 for the UN, 176 00:06:47,115 --> 00:06:49,675 that, you know, was ultimately successful. And and 177 00:06:49,675 --> 00:06:51,754 and so she's the president of this year 178 00:06:51,754 --> 00:06:53,675 of class. So we're hopefully gonna have her 179 00:06:53,675 --> 00:06:54,175 insights 180 00:06:54,740 --> 00:06:56,419 on what it's like for her working in 181 00:06:56,419 --> 00:06:57,639 this field and, 182 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:01,300 how she sees this year going. Great stuff. 183 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,300 And I understand that you'd like to hear 184 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:06,600 from Physics World readers and podcast listeners 185 00:07:07,139 --> 00:07:09,584 about what they would like to see in 186 00:07:09,584 --> 00:07:11,425 the special issue. What what what's the best 187 00:07:11,425 --> 00:07:13,105 way for them to to get in touch 188 00:07:13,105 --> 00:07:13,685 with you? 189 00:07:14,305 --> 00:07:15,985 Well, yeah, I'd love to I mean, if 190 00:07:15,985 --> 00:07:18,225 any of you have any interesting ideas or 191 00:07:18,225 --> 00:07:18,785 if you're, 192 00:07:19,264 --> 00:07:22,144 if you're a researcher working in in the 193 00:07:22,144 --> 00:07:22,644 field, 194 00:07:23,345 --> 00:07:25,259 if you're working in something glassy 195 00:07:26,060 --> 00:07:27,199 and you'd like to, 196 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:28,800 talk about your research, 197 00:07:29,339 --> 00:07:32,240 to us, then, yeah, drop us an email. 198 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:33,980 Let us know via email. 199 00:07:34,460 --> 00:07:36,300 You can con you can find the details 200 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:37,839 on the contact us page, 201 00:07:38,475 --> 00:07:40,875 on our website, and, let us know what 202 00:07:40,875 --> 00:07:43,055 you think. You can also tweet to us, 203 00:07:44,314 --> 00:07:47,514 and, we'll we'll get all your ideas in, 204 00:07:47,514 --> 00:07:49,055 and we'll see what we can do. 205 00:07:49,675 --> 00:07:51,675 Well, that's great. And, yeah, as Tusha said, 206 00:07:51,675 --> 00:07:54,439 check out the Physics World website for, an 207 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:57,319 email contact or indeed a link to our 208 00:07:57,319 --> 00:07:59,560 to our Twitter page. That that sounds like 209 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,120 a really exciting project, Tushnet. Thanks for coming 210 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:02,939 on the podcast. 211 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:05,819 Lovely chatting as always, Hamish. 212 00:08:12,604 --> 00:08:16,064 Despite the popular character of the lone scientist, 213 00:08:16,604 --> 00:08:19,024 research is usually a group activity. 214 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:22,639 Physicists normally work in small to medium sized 215 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:25,759 teams and will often collaborate with people outside 216 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:26,579 of their group, 217 00:08:26,959 --> 00:08:28,500 sometimes at the same university 218 00:08:29,039 --> 00:08:31,600 and other times with people halfway around the 219 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:32,100 world. 220 00:08:33,054 --> 00:08:35,054 To talk about how scientists can be more 221 00:08:35,054 --> 00:08:35,554 effective 222 00:08:35,855 --> 00:08:36,675 at collaboration, 223 00:08:37,215 --> 00:08:39,315 I'm joined down the line from the University 224 00:08:39,375 --> 00:08:40,115 of Manchester 225 00:08:40,415 --> 00:08:41,634 by Annette Bramley, 226 00:08:42,095 --> 00:08:45,134 who is coauthor with Liz Ogilvy of the 227 00:08:45,134 --> 00:08:46,959 book Research Collaboration, 228 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:49,839 A Step by Step Guide to Success. 229 00:08:50,860 --> 00:08:54,720 Annette is director of the N8 Research Partnership 230 00:08:55,179 --> 00:08:56,720 of the research intensive 231 00:08:57,339 --> 00:08:59,440 universities in the North Of England, 232 00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:02,434 and we'll also chat about the role of 233 00:09:02,434 --> 00:09:03,335 that organization. 234 00:09:04,355 --> 00:09:06,455 Hi, Annette. Welcome to the podcast. 235 00:09:06,995 --> 00:09:09,475 Hi, Hamish. Thanks for having me. This is 236 00:09:09,475 --> 00:09:10,295 very exciting. 237 00:09:10,835 --> 00:09:13,014 So, Annette, there are many ways that scientists 238 00:09:13,154 --> 00:09:15,990 can work together. What would you define as 239 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:16,490 collaboration? 240 00:09:17,909 --> 00:09:20,950 So I think there's so many ways that 241 00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:23,190 you can define collaboration, and that's, you know, 242 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:25,350 one of the challenges of of the book, 243 00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:27,909 really. But literally, to go back to first 244 00:09:27,909 --> 00:09:28,409 principles, 245 00:09:29,144 --> 00:09:32,365 collaboration is is about working with someone else. 246 00:09:32,985 --> 00:09:35,384 It's something you can't do on your own. 247 00:09:35,384 --> 00:09:38,045 In the book, we've really focused on 248 00:09:38,425 --> 00:09:39,004 the collaborative 249 00:09:39,545 --> 00:09:42,205 advantage that you can get when you combine 250 00:09:42,425 --> 00:09:45,899 the unique skills and resources and expertise of 251 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,019 of two researchers 252 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,639 to be more than the sum of their 253 00:09:49,639 --> 00:09:50,139 parts. 254 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,500 And and so when you think of collaboration, 255 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:55,799 do you count, you know, what goes on 256 00:09:55,799 --> 00:09:56,299 within 257 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,745 a research group as collaboration, 258 00:09:59,045 --> 00:10:01,365 or are you looking more at sort of 259 00:10:01,365 --> 00:10:01,865 external 260 00:10:02,485 --> 00:10:02,985 collaborations, 261 00:10:03,605 --> 00:10:06,165 outside of a specific group? Yeah. So I 262 00:10:06,165 --> 00:10:08,085 think you can look at it, several ways, 263 00:10:08,085 --> 00:10:09,684 and a lot of it is about the 264 00:10:09,684 --> 00:10:10,184 dynamics 265 00:10:10,509 --> 00:10:11,569 of the relationship. 266 00:10:12,350 --> 00:10:13,329 So for, 267 00:10:13,949 --> 00:10:15,009 so every collaboration 268 00:10:15,949 --> 00:10:18,669 is about a relationship between human beings, at 269 00:10:18,669 --> 00:10:20,690 least one other human being, but sometimes, 270 00:10:21,230 --> 00:10:23,404 you know, more than one other human being. 271 00:10:23,404 --> 00:10:25,325 And and I think, you know, you could 272 00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:27,504 think about, for example, a, 273 00:10:28,605 --> 00:10:30,865 a PhD supervisor and their student. 274 00:10:31,565 --> 00:10:33,584 And for some supervisors 275 00:10:33,884 --> 00:10:34,945 and some students, 276 00:10:35,884 --> 00:10:37,504 at various degrees of maturity, 277 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,959 that will move from a relationship which is 278 00:10:40,959 --> 00:10:44,019 maybe quite directive at the start of, 279 00:10:44,639 --> 00:10:46,500 a a PhD project, for example, 280 00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:48,819 to something which is much more collaborative 281 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:51,459 over a period of time where 282 00:10:51,825 --> 00:10:55,285 the supervisor and student really start to be, 283 00:10:55,825 --> 00:10:57,285 influencing each other, 284 00:10:57,825 --> 00:10:58,884 and modifying 285 00:10:59,345 --> 00:11:02,065 their own thinking and modifying the way the 286 00:11:02,065 --> 00:11:04,404 project goes based on both of their input. 287 00:11:04,465 --> 00:11:05,684 Whereas at the start, 288 00:11:06,019 --> 00:11:07,940 it might not have been like that. And 289 00:11:07,940 --> 00:11:09,559 I think there are lots of examples 290 00:11:10,259 --> 00:11:11,240 like that really, 291 00:11:12,019 --> 00:11:14,360 where collaboration is kind of on a spectrum. 292 00:11:15,059 --> 00:11:17,159 So even in the very, very big 293 00:11:18,424 --> 00:11:19,964 collaborations that you might see, 294 00:11:20,504 --> 00:11:21,804 at some of the big 295 00:11:22,184 --> 00:11:24,904 physics site and the Large Hadron Collider or 296 00:11:24,904 --> 00:11:27,065 or something like that, you, you know, you 297 00:11:27,065 --> 00:11:29,084 will have people in that collaboration, 298 00:11:29,384 --> 00:11:31,110 and some of them will be kind of 299 00:11:31,589 --> 00:11:34,789 experiencing quite a directive relationship, and others will 300 00:11:34,789 --> 00:11:36,809 be having this kind of very collaborative 301 00:11:37,669 --> 00:11:40,809 relationship where they're coming up with ideas together 302 00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:43,350 and are being influenced by each other and 303 00:11:43,350 --> 00:11:45,129 shaping the direction of the project. 304 00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:46,820 And so I think, you 305 00:11:47,165 --> 00:11:49,245 know, different people can move in and out 306 00:11:49,245 --> 00:11:52,285 of this kind of collaborative mode at different 307 00:11:52,285 --> 00:11:54,705 points and in different parts of their, 308 00:11:55,165 --> 00:11:55,665 relationship. 309 00:11:56,285 --> 00:11:57,825 But the kind of crux 310 00:11:58,205 --> 00:12:01,085 of collaboration being about the the interaction between 311 00:12:01,085 --> 00:12:03,940 human beings is really kind of what underpins 312 00:12:04,879 --> 00:12:06,179 the the whole, 313 00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:07,379 story 314 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,059 of of the book, 315 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,000 because it starts with it starts with you 316 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,460 as a as an individual, 317 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,674 and then we build it up through you, 318 00:12:16,674 --> 00:12:18,294 a team, an organization, 319 00:12:18,754 --> 00:12:20,514 and then kind of a whole r and 320 00:12:20,514 --> 00:12:24,034 d system, you know, multiple organizations. So that 321 00:12:24,034 --> 00:12:26,274 that kind of spectrum, I think, I I 322 00:12:26,274 --> 00:12:27,634 also think about that in terms of, 323 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,240 research disciplines. So is it a single discipline 324 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,220 or is it multidisciplinary? 325 00:12:33,159 --> 00:12:33,899 But actually, 326 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,679 you know, research always lies somewhere on a 327 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:37,179 spectrum, 328 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,580 whether that's of a single discipline 329 00:12:41,004 --> 00:12:42,784 or or a tiny part of a discipline 330 00:12:42,924 --> 00:12:44,065 and another subdiscipline 331 00:12:44,445 --> 00:12:45,644 all the way to something which is, you 332 00:12:45,644 --> 00:12:47,745 know, maybe quite extremely interdisciplinary. 333 00:12:48,524 --> 00:12:49,884 And I and I try not to get 334 00:12:49,884 --> 00:12:51,024 bogged down in the, 335 00:12:51,485 --> 00:12:53,309 you know, in the is it inter or 336 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:54,690 trans or multidisciplinary, 337 00:12:55,309 --> 00:12:56,990 but more think about it as this kind 338 00:12:56,990 --> 00:12:57,570 of beautiful 339 00:12:58,029 --> 00:12:58,529 spectrum, 340 00:12:59,549 --> 00:13:01,789 where there's there's lots of different shades and 341 00:13:01,789 --> 00:13:03,490 lots of different colors in between. 342 00:13:04,029 --> 00:13:06,190 So, Annette, in your book, you encourage people 343 00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:08,049 to develop the right mindset 344 00:13:08,414 --> 00:13:09,154 for collaboration. 345 00:13:10,014 --> 00:13:12,115 What do you mean by the right mindset? 346 00:13:12,254 --> 00:13:13,714 And is that is that 347 00:13:14,095 --> 00:13:15,695 can that be a difficult thing for some 348 00:13:15,695 --> 00:13:17,394 people to, to achieve? 349 00:13:18,654 --> 00:13:20,334 So I think that there's a kind of 350 00:13:20,334 --> 00:13:22,575 various mindsets that you need to to have 351 00:13:22,575 --> 00:13:23,615 if if you're gonna, 352 00:13:24,250 --> 00:13:25,470 collaborate successfully. 353 00:13:26,009 --> 00:13:27,070 So, for example, 354 00:13:27,769 --> 00:13:29,309 we talk about the importance 355 00:13:29,769 --> 00:13:31,389 of thinking about, 356 00:13:33,129 --> 00:13:34,350 scarcity and abundance. 357 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:36,009 So in a in a kind of a 358 00:13:36,009 --> 00:13:38,170 scarcity mindset, there's not enough. And if you 359 00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:40,024 want to collaborate with people, then you have 360 00:13:40,024 --> 00:13:42,664 to have the perception that there's enough to 361 00:13:42,664 --> 00:13:44,924 go round and that there's plenty to share. 362 00:13:45,785 --> 00:13:48,024 You have to be able to, be willing 363 00:13:48,024 --> 00:13:50,764 to share kind of some power and control. 364 00:13:52,429 --> 00:13:55,329 You have to be able to understand that, 365 00:13:56,190 --> 00:13:58,350 you might be wanting to collaborate or you 366 00:13:58,350 --> 00:14:00,110 might need to collaborate with someone who you 367 00:14:00,110 --> 00:14:01,409 normally compete with. 368 00:14:02,190 --> 00:14:02,929 And then 369 00:14:03,389 --> 00:14:06,365 how do you how do you, yeah, overcome 370 00:14:06,365 --> 00:14:07,584 that kind of tendency 371 00:14:08,044 --> 00:14:10,625 to want to compete, to be able to 372 00:14:10,764 --> 00:14:13,024 see the benefits of working with a competitor 373 00:14:13,884 --> 00:14:15,804 to to get to get more out of 374 00:14:15,804 --> 00:14:16,304 it? 375 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:18,779 So there's there's lots of different kind of 376 00:14:18,779 --> 00:14:21,840 mindsets that that you need to adopt. 377 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:25,820 Another one is about being proactive and not 378 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:26,720 being defensive. 379 00:14:28,475 --> 00:14:30,715 It's about mindsets and behaviors. And for some 380 00:14:30,715 --> 00:14:31,215 people, 381 00:14:31,754 --> 00:14:33,595 you know, it can it can be a 382 00:14:33,595 --> 00:14:34,894 challenge. And that's not, 383 00:14:35,675 --> 00:14:36,815 a reflection on 384 00:14:37,274 --> 00:14:39,855 the person, but it's often the way that 385 00:14:40,475 --> 00:14:41,455 over many 386 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:44,799 years and decades in some cases, they've been 387 00:14:45,019 --> 00:14:47,100 trained into a certain way of culture, a 388 00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:48,240 certain way of thinking, 389 00:14:48,620 --> 00:14:50,080 a certain way of doing things. 390 00:14:51,179 --> 00:14:53,660 And I the part of the book is 391 00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:54,879 saying, well, 392 00:14:55,804 --> 00:14:57,325 if you really want to collaborate, and, of 393 00:14:57,325 --> 00:14:59,164 course, not everyone does, but if you do 394 00:14:59,164 --> 00:15:01,345 want to collaborate, then then maybe 395 00:15:01,804 --> 00:15:04,225 have a think about some of these perspectives 396 00:15:04,285 --> 00:15:05,504 and some of these issues. 397 00:15:06,445 --> 00:15:07,884 And then you may be able to put 398 00:15:07,884 --> 00:15:09,904 yourself in a better position to 399 00:15:10,309 --> 00:15:11,610 to collaborate successfully. 400 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:14,309 And and, ultimately, that's, you know, that's what 401 00:15:14,309 --> 00:15:15,589 we want. We want to kind of help 402 00:15:15,589 --> 00:15:17,769 people to have the, 403 00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:21,990 positive experience of of collaboration so that they 404 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:23,850 can, you know, develop new knowledge, 405 00:15:24,615 --> 00:15:26,394 and new understanding of the world, 406 00:15:27,014 --> 00:15:29,575 and and be transformed in that experience because 407 00:15:29,575 --> 00:15:32,075 working with with other people with different perspectives 408 00:15:32,615 --> 00:15:33,995 is is, you know, transformative 409 00:15:34,295 --> 00:15:35,975 and can be really beneficial to your own 410 00:15:35,975 --> 00:15:36,475 research. 411 00:15:37,230 --> 00:15:38,990 Now now here in The UK, we have 412 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:42,289 a very exam based education system, 413 00:15:42,830 --> 00:15:44,509 you know, particularly for, 414 00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:47,870 for for children, young people who who study 415 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:49,230 science. And there there are a lot of 416 00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:51,970 countries around the world that have similar systems. 417 00:15:52,725 --> 00:15:55,704 Is it difficult taking a young person who's 418 00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:56,664 essentially 419 00:15:57,845 --> 00:15:59,625 been used to working solo, 420 00:16:00,004 --> 00:16:01,764 you know, with the one goal of of 421 00:16:01,764 --> 00:16:04,245 of getting a great grade on their exam? 422 00:16:04,245 --> 00:16:06,485 Yeah. Is it difficult for people like that 423 00:16:06,485 --> 00:16:06,985 to 424 00:16:07,299 --> 00:16:10,019 to to to become involved in collaboration? Do 425 00:16:10,019 --> 00:16:12,360 they tend to to want to do everything 426 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:14,899 because that's what they had to do during 427 00:16:14,899 --> 00:16:15,639 their schooling? 428 00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:18,360 I think it's less to do with 429 00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:20,980 with schooling as to kind of what their 430 00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:23,855 perceptions are about what's gonna make them successful 431 00:16:24,154 --> 00:16:26,975 in the career that they are choosing. 432 00:16:28,875 --> 00:16:30,254 Many people who 433 00:16:30,955 --> 00:16:33,214 would like to pursue an academic career, 434 00:16:33,834 --> 00:16:35,855 you know, would feel that having 435 00:16:36,339 --> 00:16:40,019 first name author papers in high impact journals, 436 00:16:40,419 --> 00:16:42,839 is is going to be the the the 437 00:16:42,899 --> 00:16:44,820 the absolutely key thing. And I think that's 438 00:16:44,820 --> 00:16:47,320 something we have to think about that UKOI 439 00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:48,759 are introducing their, 440 00:16:50,105 --> 00:16:52,424 or building on the world society's resume for 441 00:16:52,424 --> 00:16:54,184 researchers and making that more, 442 00:16:55,704 --> 00:16:58,125 of a requirement for their funding, which, 443 00:16:58,825 --> 00:17:01,004 means that that people have an opportunity 444 00:17:01,544 --> 00:17:03,004 to talk more about 445 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,700 the things that they do in research, 446 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:07,460 which 447 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,660 are maybe civic kind of citizen responsibilities 448 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,359 or, you know, are part of these kind 449 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,460 of networks and collaboration building, 450 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,740 activities. So I I think it's more about 451 00:17:19,315 --> 00:17:22,375 what what people especially people coming into the 452 00:17:22,674 --> 00:17:25,894 the the the field would see as 453 00:17:26,434 --> 00:17:27,894 how they're going to be measured, 454 00:17:28,914 --> 00:17:31,894 and and and and what success looks like. 455 00:17:32,970 --> 00:17:34,730 I I I guess I'd also reflect there's 456 00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:36,509 quite a lot of work done at schools, 457 00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:39,710 and even in universities and in undergraduate courses 458 00:17:39,929 --> 00:17:40,429 about 459 00:17:41,289 --> 00:17:43,369 working as teams. You know, you kind of 460 00:17:43,369 --> 00:17:46,190 have team building days and team building courses. 461 00:17:47,615 --> 00:17:50,515 But actually collaboration is about something more, 462 00:17:51,215 --> 00:17:54,575 it involves build team working, but but but 463 00:17:54,575 --> 00:17:57,394 it there's subtly something more and 464 00:17:57,775 --> 00:18:00,174 we don't teach and understand all of these 465 00:18:00,174 --> 00:18:02,255 kind of skills and that's what this book 466 00:18:02,255 --> 00:18:04,369 is is kind of helping to do is 467 00:18:04,369 --> 00:18:06,529 provide a resource to help people think about 468 00:18:06,529 --> 00:18:08,690 that and to to teach it or or 469 00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:10,069 learn it for themselves. 470 00:18:11,089 --> 00:18:12,069 Look. Collaborations 471 00:18:12,369 --> 00:18:14,950 often take place between different teams, 472 00:18:15,365 --> 00:18:17,924 And, that I suppose that can really add 473 00:18:17,924 --> 00:18:19,305 an an extra layer 474 00:18:19,684 --> 00:18:22,325 of complexity to relationships. You know, you could 475 00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:24,424 have individual team members 476 00:18:24,884 --> 00:18:27,845 collaborating with other team members, or all the 477 00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:28,345 collaboration 478 00:18:28,725 --> 00:18:29,625 could go through 479 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:30,900 team leaders, 480 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,759 I suppose, is another way to to manage 481 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:34,660 such a collaboration. 482 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,279 Is there a best way for a team 483 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:40,019 to approach a collaboration, or does it really 484 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:40,960 depend on, 485 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,125 on the nature of what they're doing? 486 00:18:43,525 --> 00:18:45,285 I think very much it it, you know, 487 00:18:45,285 --> 00:18:45,765 it's, 488 00:18:46,325 --> 00:18:48,085 as we spoke at the at the start 489 00:18:48,085 --> 00:18:50,484 about research and and and those kind of 490 00:18:50,484 --> 00:18:52,484 relationships being on a spectrum, I think, you 491 00:18:52,484 --> 00:18:54,884 know, this again, you know, each each team 492 00:18:54,884 --> 00:18:57,204 and and arguably each of the relationships within 493 00:18:57,204 --> 00:18:58,259 those teams will be, 494 00:18:58,740 --> 00:19:00,339 in a in on a different part of 495 00:19:00,339 --> 00:19:01,160 that spectrum. 496 00:19:01,779 --> 00:19:02,680 But I think 497 00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:04,920 going into collaborations, 498 00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:09,000 one of the things that that that teams 499 00:19:09,059 --> 00:19:09,799 can do 500 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:11,320 is think about 501 00:19:12,285 --> 00:19:12,945 their own 502 00:19:13,644 --> 00:19:14,865 psychological safety 503 00:19:15,404 --> 00:19:18,205 as a as as a group. And, you 504 00:19:18,205 --> 00:19:18,705 know, 505 00:19:19,085 --> 00:19:21,345 I guess, for some of your listeners, they 506 00:19:21,725 --> 00:19:22,865 won't have 507 00:19:23,325 --> 00:19:25,904 heard maybe of the term psychological safety 508 00:19:26,365 --> 00:19:28,470 very much. And it may and it but 509 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:30,549 it what it really means is, you know, 510 00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:33,529 that in with this group of people, I'm 511 00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:35,690 okay to show up 512 00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:37,609 and ask questions, 513 00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:39,289 pose, 514 00:19:40,535 --> 00:19:43,035 challenging or constructive viewpoints. 515 00:19:44,375 --> 00:19:46,375 I you know, it's going to be okay 516 00:19:46,375 --> 00:19:47,734 for me to ask a question if I 517 00:19:47,734 --> 00:19:48,535 don't understand. 518 00:19:50,054 --> 00:19:51,734 And and as human beings, we're kind of 519 00:19:51,734 --> 00:19:54,819 quite highly attuned to to those those kinds 520 00:19:54,819 --> 00:19:57,380 of dynamics, you know, they've evolved over over 521 00:19:57,380 --> 00:19:59,220 billions of years. And if and if you 522 00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:00,279 don't feel safe, 523 00:20:00,659 --> 00:20:02,200 you don't show up, 524 00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:05,795 authentically to work, but also you might keep 525 00:20:05,795 --> 00:20:07,095 good ideas to yourself. 526 00:20:08,434 --> 00:20:09,894 And and so 527 00:20:10,434 --> 00:20:12,674 I think what is important is for for 528 00:20:12,674 --> 00:20:13,974 teams to think about, 529 00:20:14,515 --> 00:20:15,494 are we psychologically 530 00:20:16,035 --> 00:20:16,535 safe? 531 00:20:17,154 --> 00:20:19,075 Have we got a leader or is our 532 00:20:19,075 --> 00:20:20,375 kind of person leading? 533 00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:22,529 You know? Are they are they helping to 534 00:20:22,529 --> 00:20:25,250 shape, you know, make it psychologically safe? Because, 535 00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:26,150 you know, ultimately, 536 00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:29,730 the leader will, you know, really have a 537 00:20:29,730 --> 00:20:31,269 strong influence on that. 538 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:33,029 And and think about, 539 00:20:34,214 --> 00:20:34,694 you know, the 540 00:20:35,575 --> 00:20:37,015 and and start the, you know, the other 541 00:20:37,015 --> 00:20:38,154 groups coming together. 542 00:20:38,855 --> 00:20:40,295 And I think, you know, if if if 543 00:20:40,295 --> 00:20:42,795 you can if you can have that, then 544 00:20:43,575 --> 00:20:46,055 then then that's a good starting position. And 545 00:20:46,055 --> 00:20:47,809 I think the other thing is it's 546 00:20:48,430 --> 00:20:50,210 we quite often think about collaboration 547 00:20:50,590 --> 00:20:51,070 as, 548 00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:54,750 you know, coming together and winning a huge 549 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:55,490 big grant 550 00:20:55,870 --> 00:20:57,090 and, you know, 551 00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:59,390 all the bells and whistles that come with 552 00:20:59,390 --> 00:21:01,505 that. And and so, actually, it can seem 553 00:21:01,505 --> 00:21:03,664 really daunting to get into collaboration. I think 554 00:21:03,664 --> 00:21:05,525 one of the things we can do, especially 555 00:21:05,744 --> 00:21:06,244 when, 556 00:21:07,184 --> 00:21:09,345 you know, it's early days, is to just 557 00:21:09,345 --> 00:21:12,144 take things, like, to just to to lower 558 00:21:12,144 --> 00:21:14,279 the bar a little bit and and to 559 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:15,880 kind of take things one step at a 560 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:16,380 time, 561 00:21:17,319 --> 00:21:18,940 and not to put so much pressure 562 00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:20,220 on the relationship 563 00:21:20,679 --> 00:21:21,819 or on the people, 564 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,599 but to, you know, to have to have 565 00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:27,399 these kind of stepwise interactions where you build 566 00:21:27,399 --> 00:21:27,899 trust, 567 00:21:28,634 --> 00:21:31,115 you build understanding, you start to build a 568 00:21:31,115 --> 00:21:32,734 common language over time. 569 00:21:33,835 --> 00:21:36,075 And then and then you'll be ready to 570 00:21:36,075 --> 00:21:38,734 go and bid for something perhaps, 571 00:21:39,195 --> 00:21:41,115 but also the fact that you've tried being 572 00:21:41,115 --> 00:21:43,195 in collaboration and and maybe it wasn't the 573 00:21:43,195 --> 00:21:43,855 right thing. 574 00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:46,909 It does that's also okay, you know, and 575 00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:48,769 you can go off and try another collaboration. 576 00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:51,069 I think we we put we put a 577 00:21:51,069 --> 00:21:52,210 lot of pressure on ourselves 578 00:21:52,909 --> 00:21:55,069 to get everything right first time and, 579 00:21:55,630 --> 00:21:57,464 and and and go and win the grant 580 00:21:57,464 --> 00:22:00,505 or or, you know, get the publication. And, 581 00:22:00,505 --> 00:22:01,565 actually, with collaborations, you 582 00:22:02,664 --> 00:22:03,724 it's about relationships, 583 00:22:04,025 --> 00:22:06,424 and you can't win them. You know, they're 584 00:22:06,424 --> 00:22:08,765 a process, and they're evolving. And 585 00:22:10,289 --> 00:22:11,890 and and, eventually, they might kind of come 586 00:22:11,890 --> 00:22:13,809 to an end, you know, and and that's 587 00:22:13,809 --> 00:22:16,309 that's all good. You know? That's that's part 588 00:22:16,769 --> 00:22:18,789 of part of the rich tapestry of life. 589 00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:19,589 And, 590 00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:22,404 and I and that's a so for me, 591 00:22:22,404 --> 00:22:24,164 kind of not putting so much pressure on 592 00:22:24,164 --> 00:22:26,565 the relationships in the early days is, you 593 00:22:26,565 --> 00:22:28,565 know, again, a good thing, which which means 594 00:22:28,565 --> 00:22:30,965 you have to start relationship building while in 595 00:22:30,965 --> 00:22:31,945 advance of, 596 00:22:32,404 --> 00:22:33,625 you know, any potential 597 00:22:34,850 --> 00:22:37,809 large funding, you know, call in an ideal 598 00:22:37,809 --> 00:22:39,509 world if you can do that. 599 00:22:40,450 --> 00:22:41,430 And collaborations 600 00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:44,309 can occur, within the same university. 601 00:22:44,769 --> 00:22:46,850 And, you know, I think some universities are 602 00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:48,850 better than others at at at sort of 603 00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:49,350 fostering, 604 00:22:50,294 --> 00:22:52,634 collaborations and cross disciplinary, 605 00:22:53,815 --> 00:22:54,315 interactions. 606 00:22:55,174 --> 00:22:57,835 What can an organization do to encourage 607 00:22:58,694 --> 00:22:59,194 intramural 608 00:22:59,575 --> 00:23:00,075 collaboration? 609 00:23:00,534 --> 00:23:02,634 Because I I would guess that maybe sometimes 610 00:23:02,694 --> 00:23:03,194 collaborating 611 00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:06,779 with somebody down the corridor could be more 612 00:23:06,779 --> 00:23:09,900 difficult than collaborating with somebody halfway around the 613 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:12,160 world for, you know, sort of institutional 614 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:14,240 or or even political reasons. 615 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:17,455 Yeah. And and in a a previous, 616 00:23:17,835 --> 00:23:19,674 a previous role when I was, you know, 617 00:23:19,674 --> 00:23:21,695 looking after in fact, I was looking after 618 00:23:21,835 --> 00:23:23,375 the mathematicians at EPSRC. 619 00:23:24,394 --> 00:23:26,475 I would quite often go go go and 620 00:23:26,475 --> 00:23:28,715 visit the community and and and, actually, you 621 00:23:28,715 --> 00:23:31,134 know, what they did was so, you 622 00:23:31,595 --> 00:23:34,230 know, their research was so specialized that people 623 00:23:34,289 --> 00:23:35,570 on the other side of the world might 624 00:23:35,570 --> 00:23:38,710 understand, but but somebody's four doors down the 625 00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:41,529 corridor might might not. Right? So so I 626 00:23:41,529 --> 00:23:43,910 I completely kind of resonate with that. 627 00:23:44,849 --> 00:23:45,509 But there's 628 00:23:46,289 --> 00:23:46,950 so much 629 00:23:47,525 --> 00:23:48,825 latent talent 630 00:23:49,125 --> 00:23:50,265 and innovation 631 00:23:50,804 --> 00:23:51,865 within our institutions 632 00:23:52,644 --> 00:23:54,884 that we could be harnessing if if we 633 00:23:54,884 --> 00:23:57,065 could do some of that. It's definitely 634 00:23:57,525 --> 00:23:58,664 something that universities 635 00:23:58,964 --> 00:24:00,265 can can be encouraging. 636 00:24:01,589 --> 00:24:03,450 So how do they go about that? Well, 637 00:24:03,829 --> 00:24:04,329 obviously, 638 00:24:05,509 --> 00:24:07,210 workload and time pressures 639 00:24:07,589 --> 00:24:09,210 are are some of the, 640 00:24:09,589 --> 00:24:11,430 you know, are some of the kind of 641 00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:13,349 key things that we all know, especially with 642 00:24:13,349 --> 00:24:14,009 the pandemic, 643 00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:16,005 everyone's been under. 644 00:24:16,865 --> 00:24:18,625 So I think we have to kind of 645 00:24:18,625 --> 00:24:19,924 recognize that there 646 00:24:20,304 --> 00:24:20,964 are genuine 647 00:24:21,585 --> 00:24:23,365 barriers to people doing 648 00:24:23,664 --> 00:24:24,565 something which 649 00:24:25,025 --> 00:24:26,964 is is gonna take some time, 650 00:24:27,505 --> 00:24:29,525 but but may not have an immediate payoff. 651 00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:31,210 And and so I think there's 652 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:34,789 there there's a need for higher level staff 653 00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:37,029 in the university to recognize that and make 654 00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:38,090 provision for that. 655 00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:40,090 I think it's also about, 656 00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:42,309 you know, the lit the sort of the 657 00:24:42,309 --> 00:24:43,529 leaders in the organization 658 00:24:44,744 --> 00:24:46,285 explaining why it's important, 659 00:24:47,305 --> 00:24:48,204 showing that it's 660 00:24:48,505 --> 00:24:51,325 that it's valued, and factoring it in 661 00:24:51,785 --> 00:24:53,805 to, you know, reward and recognition 662 00:24:54,424 --> 00:24:56,045 or, you know, who gets celebrated, 663 00:24:57,384 --> 00:24:58,285 what stories 664 00:24:58,904 --> 00:24:59,404 get 665 00:24:59,890 --> 00:25:02,609 talked about in the internal newsletters. Yeah. All 666 00:25:02,609 --> 00:25:04,869 of all of that kind of stuff, 667 00:25:05,650 --> 00:25:07,569 is really important. And the stories we tell 668 00:25:07,569 --> 00:25:09,109 ourselves are hugely important. 669 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:13,009 The sort of rituals and routines that we 670 00:25:13,009 --> 00:25:14,105 have all 671 00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:16,345 all add up to organizational 672 00:25:16,644 --> 00:25:18,184 culture. You know, how do we 673 00:25:18,484 --> 00:25:20,404 build that common language? You know, if you're 674 00:25:20,565 --> 00:25:22,804 if you are somebody who's in something very 675 00:25:22,804 --> 00:25:24,565 specialized and you want to go and talk 676 00:25:24,565 --> 00:25:25,544 to someone else, 677 00:25:26,484 --> 00:25:28,325 you have to kind of be able to 678 00:25:28,325 --> 00:25:30,839 to build yourselves a common language and that's 679 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:33,320 gonna mean that that that's gonna take time 680 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,779 and and and effort. 681 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,480 So so I think there's lot that I 682 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,580 mean, there's lots that that universities 683 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,240 can be doing, you know, and they come 684 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,559 you know, physical spaces as well, you know. 685 00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:45,825 Did does it feel do you feel okay 686 00:25:46,525 --> 00:25:47,025 if 687 00:25:47,404 --> 00:25:49,825 you walk into, you know, you're a physicist, 688 00:25:49,884 --> 00:25:51,825 but you walk into a school of geography, 689 00:25:52,605 --> 00:25:54,525 you know, and how do you feel in 690 00:25:54,525 --> 00:25:56,765 that space, you know, because it's probably somewhere 691 00:25:56,765 --> 00:25:58,410 you might not have been before. And, 692 00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:01,289 yeah, I remember doing that when I was 693 00:26:01,289 --> 00:26:03,049 at university and I was a PhD student. 694 00:26:03,049 --> 00:26:03,769 I used to, 695 00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:06,250 I used to go from my lab to 696 00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:06,490 to, 697 00:26:07,369 --> 00:26:10,090 part of the part of the chemistry department, 698 00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:12,109 actually, to use an atomic force microscope. 699 00:26:12,544 --> 00:26:14,144 And I kind of used to skulk in 700 00:26:14,144 --> 00:26:16,085 there. Like, I felt like I'm an intruder. 701 00:26:16,944 --> 00:26:17,265 And, 702 00:26:17,825 --> 00:26:20,144 you know, people I always thought people would 703 00:26:20,144 --> 00:26:21,585 be asking me what I was doing. You 704 00:26:21,585 --> 00:26:22,865 know, what on earth are you doing here? 705 00:26:22,865 --> 00:26:24,704 You're you're not in the chemistry department kind 706 00:26:24,704 --> 00:26:26,839 of thing. So, yeah, I I can really 707 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,159 recognize that, you know, that that can actually 708 00:26:29,159 --> 00:26:31,480 be, you know, a barrier, especially if people 709 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,059 are, you know, introverted or unsure 710 00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:36,759 or, you know, it it just is another 711 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:38,519 thing that you have to kind of get 712 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:40,934 over. So having these, like, neutral spaces or, 713 00:26:41,095 --> 00:26:42,394 you know, arranging to meet 714 00:26:42,934 --> 00:26:44,775 in a cafe or, you know, all of, 715 00:26:44,775 --> 00:26:47,015 you know, all of that is is really 716 00:26:47,015 --> 00:26:47,914 kinda helpful 717 00:26:48,375 --> 00:26:49,515 and thinking about, 718 00:26:49,894 --> 00:26:51,654 you know, what's what's gonna get in the 719 00:26:51,654 --> 00:26:53,115 way of us getting on. 720 00:26:54,130 --> 00:26:56,529 So is it it sounds like really obvious 721 00:26:56,529 --> 00:26:59,169 stuff but actually unless you're quite intentional about 722 00:26:59,169 --> 00:26:59,669 it, 723 00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,470 it can be so obvious that you just 724 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:05,089 don't stop to think about it. And one 725 00:27:05,089 --> 00:27:06,549 of the things that we're doing 726 00:27:07,144 --> 00:27:09,724 in the book is is being really explicit 727 00:27:09,784 --> 00:27:10,284 about 728 00:27:10,585 --> 00:27:13,224 some of the success factors so that maybe 729 00:27:13,224 --> 00:27:14,984 if you've had a collaboration and it's been 730 00:27:14,984 --> 00:27:17,224 working, you can go, oh, yeah. This is 731 00:27:17,224 --> 00:27:18,284 why this is working, 732 00:27:18,664 --> 00:27:20,585 and maybe that's why, oh, we never did 733 00:27:20,585 --> 00:27:22,529 that. Or maybe that's why that didn't work 734 00:27:22,529 --> 00:27:24,609 quite so well. Maybe that's something we can 735 00:27:24,609 --> 00:27:25,750 kind of tease out. 736 00:27:27,329 --> 00:27:29,809 So so, yeah, it's a real how to 737 00:27:29,809 --> 00:27:31,029 book and, 738 00:27:32,049 --> 00:27:33,410 I hope there's I mean, I can't I 739 00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:35,335 can only sort of scrape the surface of, 740 00:27:35,335 --> 00:27:37,815 you know, we go into organizational collaboration a 741 00:27:37,815 --> 00:27:38,554 lot, and, 742 00:27:39,575 --> 00:27:42,134 there's there's so many little things that you 743 00:27:42,134 --> 00:27:43,974 could tweak. You know, these are kind of 744 00:27:43,974 --> 00:27:45,355 big complex organizations, 745 00:27:46,375 --> 00:27:48,809 and there's lots of little things you can 746 00:27:48,809 --> 00:27:52,990 do that that might seem insignificant, but, actually, 747 00:27:53,369 --> 00:27:55,049 they can look a huge amount if if 748 00:27:55,049 --> 00:27:55,950 you do it consistently, 749 00:27:56,970 --> 00:27:57,789 over time. 750 00:27:58,650 --> 00:28:00,589 Now the the COVID nineteen pandemic 751 00:28:00,970 --> 00:28:02,109 has really changed 752 00:28:02,410 --> 00:28:04,174 how many of us work with others, 753 00:28:05,115 --> 00:28:06,335 and many collaborations 754 00:28:06,714 --> 00:28:07,774 have moved online. 755 00:28:08,075 --> 00:28:09,694 Although, I suspect a lot of 756 00:28:09,994 --> 00:28:10,894 physics collaborations 757 00:28:11,194 --> 00:28:12,174 were done online 758 00:28:12,474 --> 00:28:12,974 before 759 00:28:13,434 --> 00:28:15,134 COVID nineteen came along. 760 00:28:15,674 --> 00:28:17,829 And if you add to this our sort 761 00:28:17,829 --> 00:28:19,289 of desire to reduce, 762 00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:20,970 carbon footprints, 763 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:24,809 how how is this move to online 764 00:28:25,669 --> 00:28:27,529 going to impact future collaborations? 765 00:28:29,109 --> 00:28:30,615 Well, I think it can 766 00:28:31,095 --> 00:28:33,575 it can only go one way in that. 767 00:28:33,575 --> 00:28:36,295 It's going to keep increasing. As as as 768 00:28:36,295 --> 00:28:38,315 as in everything, there are pros and cons. 769 00:28:38,454 --> 00:28:40,295 And so what we need to kind of 770 00:28:40,295 --> 00:28:41,355 watch for is, 771 00:28:41,734 --> 00:28:43,174 you know, what are the what are the 772 00:28:43,174 --> 00:28:43,914 great advantages 773 00:28:44,535 --> 00:28:44,694 of, 774 00:28:46,049 --> 00:28:48,929 of collaborating online? And we know that, you 775 00:28:48,929 --> 00:28:50,849 know, for from the past two years, yeah, 776 00:28:50,849 --> 00:28:52,529 we can do an awful lot of stuff 777 00:28:52,529 --> 00:28:53,990 very effectively online. 778 00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:56,150 We can build 779 00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:59,269 really quite strong relationships online without 780 00:28:59,704 --> 00:29:01,805 actually meeting people face to face. 781 00:29:04,184 --> 00:29:06,365 And the tech is improving all the time 782 00:29:06,424 --> 00:29:07,724 to make it more seamless, 783 00:29:09,464 --> 00:29:10,684 and to make it, 784 00:29:12,029 --> 00:29:14,590 you know, much so so I'm thinking, you 785 00:29:14,590 --> 00:29:16,109 know, if I if I cast my mind 786 00:29:16,109 --> 00:29:17,490 ahead, you know, speculatively, 787 00:29:17,789 --> 00:29:19,789 you know, at the moment, we're doing this 788 00:29:19,789 --> 00:29:22,269 kind of in Zoom or on on Teams 789 00:29:22,269 --> 00:29:23,809 and it's two d, but, 790 00:29:24,125 --> 00:29:25,884 you know, the the sort of big tech 791 00:29:25,884 --> 00:29:28,545 firms are thinking about virtual reality 792 00:29:29,164 --> 00:29:30,144 meeting environments, 793 00:29:30,765 --> 00:29:32,605 you know, which will seem much more kind 794 00:29:32,605 --> 00:29:34,144 of like meeting someone 795 00:29:34,525 --> 00:29:36,365 in a in a real space. So I 796 00:29:36,365 --> 00:29:38,065 think you will see that develop. 797 00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:40,809 What what people often talk about is 798 00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:42,570 is losing the serendipity 799 00:29:42,870 --> 00:29:44,250 of bumping into someone 800 00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:47,190 in, you know, in a in a lunch 801 00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:49,990 queue or or or around the fringes of 802 00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:51,910 a meeting. And and I think that there 803 00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:54,015 is something in that and we have to 804 00:29:54,174 --> 00:29:55,555 really try and think about 805 00:29:57,695 --> 00:30:00,015 how how can we maybe try and engineer 806 00:30:00,015 --> 00:30:02,894 those opportunities into our our meetings or our 807 00:30:02,894 --> 00:30:05,855 conferences and our gatherings that there there is 808 00:30:05,855 --> 00:30:06,595 that opportunity 809 00:30:06,974 --> 00:30:07,555 to have 810 00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:09,430 the kind of side conversation. 811 00:30:09,809 --> 00:30:11,730 And again, you know, there are there are 812 00:30:11,730 --> 00:30:15,089 new platforms being developed. I'm sure that people 813 00:30:15,089 --> 00:30:17,089 listening to this podcast will have, you know, 814 00:30:17,089 --> 00:30:18,609 will have used some of them maybe like 815 00:30:18,609 --> 00:30:21,349 Gather Town where you can have a poster 816 00:30:21,410 --> 00:30:22,930 and you can kind of walk up to 817 00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:25,085 it. And as you get near to people, 818 00:30:25,085 --> 00:30:26,684 you can kind of hear what the you 819 00:30:26,684 --> 00:30:28,684 know, that you kind of come into the 820 00:30:28,684 --> 00:30:29,184 conversation. 821 00:30:29,644 --> 00:30:31,325 So so that all of these things, you 822 00:30:31,325 --> 00:30:32,544 know, are are developing, 823 00:30:33,244 --> 00:30:34,144 all the time. 824 00:30:35,724 --> 00:30:37,724 But, Faye, there are things where Faye, you 825 00:30:37,724 --> 00:30:39,259 know, it will be nice for 826 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,640 for really good relational reasons to have face 827 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:44,940 to face conversations. 828 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:46,299 And 829 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:47,500 we will, 830 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:50,200 I think, be more intentional about the way 831 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,539 we use those. So we'll be more mindful 832 00:30:52,759 --> 00:30:53,900 that if we've traveled 833 00:30:54,205 --> 00:30:56,285 a long way to see someone or to 834 00:30:56,285 --> 00:30:58,225 go to a conference, maybe we won't, 835 00:30:59,565 --> 00:31:01,644 sit and do our email while we're there. 836 00:31:01,644 --> 00:31:04,445 You know? Maybe we'll be much more kind 837 00:31:04,445 --> 00:31:05,825 of focused and present, 838 00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:08,865 while we're with the people that we're with 839 00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:11,450 rather than multitasking. And I think that if 840 00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:13,130 if we could do that, that would be 841 00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:13,710 a real 842 00:31:14,009 --> 00:31:15,929 benefit in terms of the quality of our 843 00:31:15,929 --> 00:31:16,429 relationship, 844 00:31:17,130 --> 00:31:17,950 our creativity, 845 00:31:19,289 --> 00:31:21,049 the types of ideas that we're having, 846 00:31:22,865 --> 00:31:24,705 the listening that we can do to each 847 00:31:24,705 --> 00:31:25,205 other. 848 00:31:25,904 --> 00:31:28,244 So, yeah, I I'm I'm optimistic, 849 00:31:29,825 --> 00:31:32,224 about about the use of technology. I have 850 00:31:32,224 --> 00:31:34,465 to say I think there's there's some really 851 00:31:34,465 --> 00:31:34,965 interesting, 852 00:31:36,065 --> 00:31:36,565 developments 853 00:31:36,869 --> 00:31:39,430 that could really add value to what we're 854 00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:41,430 doing, but I think we just need to 855 00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:43,049 be intentional about it. 856 00:31:43,589 --> 00:31:44,890 Yeah. I I definitely, 857 00:31:45,670 --> 00:31:48,470 take take your point about not traveling halfway 858 00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:50,710 around the world just to sit there and 859 00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:52,605 check your emails and, you know, 860 00:31:53,244 --> 00:31:54,924 write a draft of that paper that you're 861 00:31:54,924 --> 00:31:58,125 working on. Because that, well, that that always 862 00:31:58,125 --> 00:32:01,644 drove me crazy at, at scientific conferences. So, 863 00:32:01,644 --> 00:32:04,765 yeah, hopefully, maybe maybe we'll people will appreciate 864 00:32:04,765 --> 00:32:05,664 a bit more, 865 00:32:06,525 --> 00:32:07,184 you know, 866 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,240 being together and being able to talk, and 867 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,799 listen. I I think that's right. But as 868 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:14,660 I think about, you know, people who organize 869 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,200 conferences will think about how they organize them 870 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:17,700 differently. 871 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:18,900 Because, 872 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,360 you know, that's the that's the other side 873 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,259 of that coin, 874 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:23,619 is 875 00:32:24,134 --> 00:32:26,455 is to, you know, well, what actually might 876 00:32:26,455 --> 00:32:27,755 be better as a webinar? 877 00:32:28,295 --> 00:32:29,515 What might be better 878 00:32:29,815 --> 00:32:30,315 as, 879 00:32:31,015 --> 00:32:32,695 or or what will be better faced? You 880 00:32:32,695 --> 00:32:35,015 know, what people gonna pay money? Because ultimately, 881 00:32:35,015 --> 00:32:37,420 conferences have to make money, don't they? What 882 00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:39,580 people make, you know, want to make what 883 00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:41,359 will make it worthwhile people traveling, 884 00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:43,279 you know, and using up, 885 00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:46,960 you know, however much of their, carbon footprint 886 00:32:47,180 --> 00:32:48,160 to to come. 887 00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:50,539 So so I think that's that's the other 888 00:32:50,539 --> 00:32:52,400 thing is it's not just for kind of 889 00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:53,554 scientists 890 00:32:54,014 --> 00:32:55,954 to to think about, but it's also about 891 00:32:56,494 --> 00:32:58,434 publishers and conference organizers 892 00:32:58,894 --> 00:32:59,214 and, 893 00:33:00,014 --> 00:33:02,494 everybody really in the in in the system 894 00:33:02,494 --> 00:33:04,034 to think about when we 895 00:33:04,414 --> 00:33:06,754 want to be together in the same room 896 00:33:06,894 --> 00:33:08,754 and and when things may be better, 897 00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:09,769 done online. 898 00:33:10,309 --> 00:33:10,809 Mhmm. 899 00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:14,250 Now, Annette, you're the director of n eight, 900 00:33:14,309 --> 00:33:17,850 the n eight research partnership of research intensive 901 00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:18,650 universities 902 00:33:19,109 --> 00:33:20,330 in the North Of England. 903 00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:22,869 Can can you tell us a bit about 904 00:33:22,869 --> 00:33:23,609 n eight? 905 00:33:24,095 --> 00:33:26,414 Yeah. So, n eight, it was was formed 906 00:33:26,414 --> 00:33:28,515 in, 02/2006. 907 00:33:28,815 --> 00:33:31,154 And so last year, we celebrated our fifteenth 908 00:33:31,455 --> 00:33:31,955 anniversary. 909 00:33:32,654 --> 00:33:34,494 And, actually, well, the clue is in the 910 00:33:34,494 --> 00:33:34,994 name. 911 00:33:35,535 --> 00:33:36,599 We're the eight 912 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,480 most research intensive universities in the North Of 913 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,440 England. And my members are right across the 914 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,900 North Of England, so Lancaster, Liverpool, and Manchester, 915 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:47,419 in the Northwest, 916 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,419 Leeds, York, and Sheffield 917 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:50,539 in Yorkshire, 918 00:33:51,134 --> 00:33:53,714 and, Newcastle and Durham in the Northeast. 919 00:33:55,695 --> 00:33:56,195 And 920 00:33:56,654 --> 00:33:59,075 the the vision of the n eight research 921 00:33:59,214 --> 00:34:02,595 partnership is to be an exceptionally effective cluster 922 00:34:02,974 --> 00:34:05,394 of research innovation and training excellence. 923 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:06,579 And so they're 924 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,300 real focused there on the excellence. 925 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:11,360 And then the other part of of the 926 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,079 vision is, to bring benefits to the economy 927 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:15,920 and communities in the North Of England and 928 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:16,420 beyond. 929 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,559 So it's kind of two parts to that, 930 00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:21,345 which is about bringing benefits. So, 931 00:34:22,204 --> 00:34:23,965 you know, pushing back the frontiers of science, 932 00:34:23,965 --> 00:34:26,445 but also bringing benefits to to, you know, 933 00:34:26,445 --> 00:34:27,905 to the plat to our places, 934 00:34:28,925 --> 00:34:31,744 but also being of the North, but for 935 00:34:31,885 --> 00:34:34,204 both the North and The UK and the 936 00:34:34,204 --> 00:34:35,710 rest of the world. So, 937 00:34:36,250 --> 00:34:39,130 the research and innovation that happens within those 938 00:34:39,130 --> 00:34:41,369 universities isn't, you know, isn't just gonna be 939 00:34:41,369 --> 00:34:42,969 applied in the North Of England, but is 940 00:34:42,969 --> 00:34:43,710 gonna bring, 941 00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:44,589 benefits, 942 00:34:45,369 --> 00:34:48,775 of various different geographical scales. And Annette, you're 943 00:34:48,775 --> 00:34:51,015 also an artist, and I believe you have 944 00:34:51,015 --> 00:34:53,114 a certificate in technical 945 00:34:53,414 --> 00:34:54,394 hand embroidery 946 00:34:55,015 --> 00:34:57,655 from the Royal School of Needlework. And I 947 00:34:57,655 --> 00:34:59,675 think you're you're you're working on another 948 00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:01,929 qualification there as well. 949 00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:03,849 Does your artistic experience 950 00:35:04,309 --> 00:35:06,889 inform your views on research collaboration? 951 00:35:08,309 --> 00:35:09,349 So I think as, 952 00:35:10,869 --> 00:35:12,405 as much as as, 953 00:35:13,765 --> 00:35:15,144 it's about the 954 00:35:15,605 --> 00:35:16,105 art, 955 00:35:17,204 --> 00:35:19,945 it's about the learning. I think for me, 956 00:35:22,324 --> 00:35:23,545 having having, 957 00:35:24,659 --> 00:35:25,719 you know, hobbies 958 00:35:26,019 --> 00:35:27,719 and or a side hustle, 959 00:35:28,019 --> 00:35:28,519 in 960 00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:32,359 in in other areas. So I'm also, studying 961 00:35:32,420 --> 00:35:35,460 for a diploma in, in in group sound 962 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:35,960 therapy. 963 00:35:37,059 --> 00:35:38,920 And I think this kind of, like, again, 964 00:35:39,059 --> 00:35:40,094 a learning mind 965 00:35:41,054 --> 00:35:43,474 set really helps to inform 966 00:35:44,094 --> 00:35:45,474 my thinking about collaboration 967 00:35:45,775 --> 00:35:46,275 because 968 00:35:47,934 --> 00:35:50,094 for one, it gets me to meet a 969 00:35:50,094 --> 00:35:52,755 whole range of different people from different backgrounds. 970 00:35:52,815 --> 00:35:53,250 And 971 00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:55,889 diversity is something I'm, you know, of all 972 00:35:55,889 --> 00:35:56,389 forms, 973 00:35:57,809 --> 00:35:59,670 extremely passionate about and 974 00:35:59,969 --> 00:36:01,429 really is hugely 975 00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:02,230 important, 976 00:36:02,929 --> 00:36:04,230 for for collaboration. 977 00:36:05,344 --> 00:36:06,704 And so I so I think part of 978 00:36:06,704 --> 00:36:08,304 it is that is about that. Part of 979 00:36:08,304 --> 00:36:10,224 it is that that willing willingness to be 980 00:36:10,224 --> 00:36:12,324 a learner, you know, and have the beginner's 981 00:36:12,385 --> 00:36:14,565 mind and and go in and and find 982 00:36:14,625 --> 00:36:15,125 something 983 00:36:15,585 --> 00:36:16,724 new. And, 984 00:36:17,744 --> 00:36:19,400 then if that starts to kind of make 985 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,640 connections, but also you don't mind then being 986 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:22,300 a beginner 987 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,140 at at something, which, you know, maybe I'm 988 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,739 really good at collaboration, 989 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,414 and was less good at sound therapy when 990 00:36:32,414 --> 00:36:34,094 I started, and I feel a bit better 991 00:36:34,094 --> 00:36:34,594 now. 992 00:36:35,855 --> 00:36:37,108 But but, you know, all of that is, 993 00:36:37,108 --> 00:36:37,715 you know, 994 00:36:38,335 --> 00:36:39,954 is is really good for 995 00:36:41,135 --> 00:36:42,434 it's it's quite a leveler. 996 00:36:42,735 --> 00:36:45,179 And thinking about, you know, who has who 997 00:36:45,179 --> 00:36:47,339 has power, the status, and hierarchy in a 998 00:36:47,339 --> 00:36:49,179 room is is another thing when you're thinking 999 00:36:49,179 --> 00:36:50,079 about collaborating. 1000 00:36:52,139 --> 00:36:52,639 And 1001 00:36:52,940 --> 00:36:53,920 and so I think 1002 00:36:54,699 --> 00:36:57,019 not always being the person with power and 1003 00:36:57,019 --> 00:36:58,159 status in a room 1004 00:36:58,619 --> 00:37:00,795 is is quite good for you. And so 1005 00:37:00,795 --> 00:37:03,034 I guess that that does that does that 1006 00:37:03,034 --> 00:37:04,255 does influence me. 1007 00:37:04,554 --> 00:37:07,514 And, of course, being completely passionate about about 1008 00:37:07,514 --> 00:37:09,135 the embroidery and the art, 1009 00:37:09,675 --> 00:37:11,194 I really want to see more, 1010 00:37:11,594 --> 00:37:12,815 arts and humanities, 1011 00:37:13,594 --> 00:37:16,630 social sciences collaboration with the same disciplines. 1012 00:37:17,010 --> 00:37:18,769 I think many of the challenges that we 1013 00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:20,450 face as a world you know, if you 1014 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:20,849 take, 1015 00:37:21,329 --> 00:37:22,309 climate change, 1016 00:37:22,849 --> 00:37:24,789 then we need we need everybody 1017 00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:28,130 to be working on various different aspects of 1018 00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:30,070 that challenge in order to make a difference. 1019 00:37:31,585 --> 00:37:34,805 The tech will come from, you know, physicists, 1020 00:37:34,945 --> 00:37:35,445 engineers, 1021 00:37:36,785 --> 00:37:38,164 but behavior change, 1022 00:37:39,025 --> 00:37:39,525 communication, 1023 00:37:41,265 --> 00:37:43,204 understanding trade offs and compromises 1024 00:37:43,505 --> 00:37:45,110 that people will make. You know, we I 1025 00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:47,190 think the pandemic has shown as well that 1026 00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:49,190 we need all of that, right, to get 1027 00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:51,989 working together towards the common goal. And then 1028 00:37:51,989 --> 00:37:54,329 we can really do stuff that's extraordinary 1029 00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:56,390 on time scales that we would never have 1030 00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:56,890 imagined. 1031 00:37:57,909 --> 00:37:58,570 And that's, 1032 00:37:59,005 --> 00:38:01,484 you know, that's that's why collaboration is, you 1033 00:38:01,484 --> 00:38:03,105 know, so hugely important. 1034 00:38:04,125 --> 00:38:06,385 Annette's book is called Research Collaboration, 1035 00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:09,505 a Step by Step Guide to Success. 1036 00:38:10,045 --> 00:38:13,309 It's published by IOP Publishing, and it's available 1037 00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:15,710 on the IOP science platform 1038 00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:17,550 and from some bookshops. 1039 00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:20,190 Thanks for moving on the podcast, Annette. 1040 00:38:20,730 --> 00:38:22,890 Thanks for having me, Hamish. I've really enjoyed 1041 00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:23,390 it. 1042 00:38:30,385 --> 00:38:33,425 On the December 25, the James Webb Space 1043 00:38:33,425 --> 00:38:37,605 Telescope blasted off from Earth on a 1,500,000 1044 00:38:37,664 --> 00:38:40,704 kilometer journey to its orbit at the L 1045 00:38:40,704 --> 00:38:44,630 2 Lagrange Point, where it arrived this week. 1046 00:38:45,250 --> 00:38:47,650 From that vantage point, it will observe the 1047 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:49,269 cosmos in fantastic 1048 00:38:49,570 --> 00:38:50,070 detail, 1049 00:38:50,530 --> 00:38:53,589 launching astronomy into an exciting new era. 1050 00:38:54,449 --> 00:38:56,849 In the latest episode of the Physics World 1051 00:38:56,849 --> 00:38:57,989 Stories podcast, 1052 00:38:58,505 --> 00:38:59,644 host Andrew Glester 1053 00:38:59,945 --> 00:39:01,885 meets James Webb Space Telescope 1054 00:39:02,184 --> 00:39:02,684 scientists 1055 00:39:03,144 --> 00:39:04,684 who recall their experiences 1056 00:39:04,985 --> 00:39:08,105 of the mission launch and the telescope's journey 1057 00:39:08,105 --> 00:39:08,925 so far. 1058 00:39:09,224 --> 00:39:11,625 And, of course, they look forward to the 1059 00:39:11,625 --> 00:39:12,445 first observations, 1060 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,800 which should be made in about six months' 1061 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:16,300 time. 1062 00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:19,099 You can find this edition of the Stories 1063 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,500 podcast on the Physics World website 1064 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,619 or at your favorite podcast provider. 1065 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,579 Just look for the title, the James Webb 1066 00:39:27,744 --> 00:39:28,565 Space Telescope 1067 00:39:29,025 --> 00:39:30,085 Launches Astronomy 1068 00:39:30,464 --> 00:39:31,844 Into a New Era. 1069 00:39:32,784 --> 00:39:35,025 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 1070 00:39:35,025 --> 00:39:38,005 for this week's podcast. Thanks to Annette Bramley 1071 00:39:38,065 --> 00:39:39,364 and Tushnet Kamasariat 1072 00:39:39,824 --> 00:39:41,204 for joining me today. 1073 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:43,930 And a special thanks to our producer, Fred 1074 00:39:43,930 --> 00:39:44,430 Ailes. 1075 00:39:44,970 --> 00:39:47,210 We'll be back again next week with a 1076 00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:49,789 lively chat about physics buildings, 1077 00:39:50,090 --> 00:39:52,829 the good, the bad, and the ugly. 1078 00:39:58,907 --> 00:40:00,046 Physics world.